June 4, 2025 • 47 mins
Vicki and Elizabeth were excited in the episode to welcome college admission experts Rick Clark and Brennan Barnard to talk about their book, “The Truth About College Admission: A Family Guide to Getting In and Staying Together.” This book cuts through the noise, misinformation, and unhealthy pressure surrounding college admissions. While acknowledging the admission system system isn't perfectly "fair," Rick and Brennan believe understanding it empowers families to navigate it wisely. We were especially impressed by the focus on practical wisdom for preserving relationships, fostering healthy communication, and maintaining perspective throughout one of life's major transitions. Join us to discover why the truth about college admission might be the most liberating thing your entire family needs to hear.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already in college, this podcast is for you.
You'll find food for thoughtand information about college
and about navigating thatdelicate balance of guidance,
involvement and knowing when toget out of the way.
(00:31):
Join your hosts as they sharesupport and a celebration of the
amazing experience of having achild in college.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
This is the podcast where wetalk about all sorts of things
that have to do with parenting acollege student parenting a
student who is getting ready togo to college, thinking about
college, and sometimes evenstudents who have just graduated
(01:04):
from college.
My name is Vicki Nelson and Iam a professor of communication,
and I am also, perhaps moreimportantly, the mom of three
daughters who have gone on tocollege and come out the other
side.
So I come to this topic both asa professional in the world of
(01:27):
higher education and as a mom,and I am here today with one of
my co-hosts, Elizabeth Hamblett,and I am going to allow her to
introduce herself and tointroduce two very exciting
guests that we have joining ustoday.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I am so excited about our guest today, Vicki, I have
been following the work of RickClark and Brennan Barnard for a
number of years.
They are out there doing whatthey can too and I'm holding
this up for the video Me tootell everybody the truth about
college admission and make surethat families stay together
(02:09):
while their students get in.
So they have been kind enough tohave me on their excellent
podcast of the same name, and soit's just my honor and delight
to be able to host them now onthe one you let me co-host every
once in a while.
So for those who are new to meand the podcast, I'm Elizabeth
Hamblett.
(02:29):
I am the author of Seven Stepsto College Success A Pathway for
Students with Disabilities, andI first connected with Rick
when I was seeking admissionsdirectors at colleges to talk to
me about the college admissionprocess and answer some
questions for students withdisabilities, and he is just as
kind and generous a person asyou can imagine.
(02:51):
And then I got to meet Brennanand appreciate their work
together.
So with that, I'm going to askBrennan because I'm an English
major who likes alphabeticalorder to start by introducing
himself and his work, and thenwe'll ask Rick to do that.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Great Thanks.
Thanks for having us.
So I'm Brennan Barnard.
I'm the Director of CollegeCounseling for Khan Lab School,
which is an in-personmastery-based school founded by
Sal Khan of Khan Academy andit's out in Mountain View.
I live in New Hampshire, I workremotely and it's out in
(03:26):
Mountain View, I live in NewHampshire, I work remotely and I
also do some work with theMaking Caring Common project at
Harvard Grad School of Educationand also with the College
Guidance Network and a bunch ofother random stuff.
Speaker 5 (03:38):
Great and my name is Rick Clark.
I am the Executive Director forStrategic Student Access at
Georgia Tech.
I've been at Georgia Tech nowfor over 20 years.
Most of that was inundergraduate admission.
As you mentioned, elizabeth, mynew role is focused on the
future of enrollment at GeorgiaTech, specifically as it relates
(03:59):
to return on investment andeconomic mobility for students
return on investment andeconomic mobility for students.
But in terms of my work beyondGeorgia Tech, I founded the
Georgia Tech Admission Blog,which still continues.
It's never about us, it'salways kind of the broader
ecosystem of higher ed and theadmission and enrollment
landscape.
(04:19):
And then also, brennan and Ipartnered, as you said, on
writing the book, and then wecontinue to do the podcast.
Our overall goal and whatbrings us together really is
just this idea of bringingperspective and trying to
reassure families that the mostimportant thing is each other
(04:41):
and that in the vast majority ofcases.
You know you can't control alot of this, but it really does
work out and being close andlistening to one another is way
more important than some bumpersticker.
So we have that in common, eventhough our work day to day
varies and we kind of come at itfrom different perspectives.
I think that's what also makesit strong yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
So you've already addressed a little bit one of my
questions, which was going tobe you know why write a book for
families and you've talkedabout that.
But I'm curious one of thethings you have in the book
which is so interesting is thisfamily check-in at the end of
every chapter.
I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about why you decided
(05:25):
to put that in and what thatdoes for us as families.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
Yeah, I'll start and then, Rick, you can add on.
I mean I think we really wantedto.
I mean, you know, we hadwritten a bunch of chapters
about different aspects of theadmission experience and we
really wanted families to cometogether to process it and have
conversations.
And a lot of what we talk aboutin the book is having
(05:53):
conversations early and oftenabout not just college admission
and not just this idea ofgetting in, but this idea of how
can this be a collaborativeexperience and something that
brings you together as a family.
I mean, some of my my bestmemories of times with my mom is
(06:14):
no longer living and my dad areare are the college journey
right Like going to visitcolleges and just that, that
process, that time of life whereyou're kind of discovering
yourself, and, and parents playan important role in that.
And so we really wanted notjust folks to just kind of read
(06:34):
the chapter and and and takeaway on on their own what they
would, but for families to cometogether and talk about it
families come together and talkabout it.
Speaker 5 (06:43):
Yeah, and I mean, like you alluded to, vicki, the
end of each chapter.
We try to facilitate someconversations and just prompt
people to either read somethingadditional or reflect back on
what they just read and givethem some rails to run on,
because I think oftentimes, youknow, we either make assumptions
about where the you knowstudent or the parents are in
(07:04):
terms of communication, or evenwhile we might have our best
intention, I mean the benefitthat Brennan and I get is we get
this is cyclical and it repeatsitself time and time again.
So for both of us, fromdifferent perspectives, watching
it repeat itself 20 plus times,you know we can get out in
front of that and use what we'velearned and what we've observed
(07:26):
families do really well orhorribly in an unhealthy way,
and facilitate better, morehealthy conversations.
And you know, I really firmlybelieve that 40 is greater than
four and that in a lot of casespeople focus so much on the next
four years, but we should befocused on the next 40 years of
relationship together, andthat's really what this is about
(07:49):
.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
That's really an interesting idea, and I think so
often parents forget that someof the advice that we're giving
them all of us in this worlddoes come from seeing it over,
year after year after year afteryear.
And you do learn a lot and canshare from that.
That's great.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
And Rick, you've also in part answered my next, one
part of my next question, whichis about the title, which I
think is really important.
So you've answered the questionabout why you talked about
staying together to a certainextent.
But I think too and I you know,the conversation you had with
Sasha Timi of University ofIndiana recently and she's a
(08:33):
very kind person too was sointeresting to me and a
reiteration of some of thoseideas about having these frank
conversations about.
You know what can the familymanage?
You know financially and youknow how do the parents see
students.
So can you talk a little bit,both of you, about, like, what
you see families doing?
(08:54):
That sort of isn't working tostay them together, help them
stay together where they shouldbe going with that, brennan you
want to start.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of times families fail to
have conversations about kindof expectations.
And we talk about the wedges atthe beginning of the book,
excuse me, of time andcommunication and so often there
(09:26):
are certain expectations orcertain approaches to this
experience that families haveand they're not talking about
them and it kind of festers.
And then you know it might notcome out until later in the, you
know, the fall of senior yearwhen things are getting a little
stressful and applications arehappening, and then it's too
(09:47):
late to have these conversations.
Or they're waiting to havefinancial conversations until
April of the senior year whenall the packages are back, and
then it's too late.
And so we're trying to getfamilies to talk proactively
about relationships andexpectations and limitations and
(10:09):
any conditions they might haveon the admission experience.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
Yeah, and you know.
Again back to, I guess, vicki,as you particularly called out,
the end of every chapter to justsort of continue to level set,
you know, and walking peoplethrough what they can expect and
you know understandably whythis, you know, from a student
side and from a family side is alittle stressful and
(10:38):
acknowledging that.
But once we kind of help getthat out on the table, it's
really logical.
I mean fundamentally and westart with this in chapter one
like parents and familiessurrounding students, they love
their kids and that gets lost inthe nagging or it gets lost in
the pressure and it manifestsitself in different ways.
(10:59):
But fundamentally, I think thereason why and Brennan and I
start a lot of our talks wherewe'll ask, you know, college
admission, what comes to mind,and almost inevitably, no matter
what state or country you're in, one of the number one answers
on the board is stress andparents say that in particular
and it's like well, why, why,why is it stressful?
And you know, you think aboutit's like I've got two teenagers
(11:21):
in my house now.
It's like it's the turning of apage of a family dynamic and
relationship and change ofcourse brings stress to any
human and you love your kids.
And then also, you know, weknow it's going to be an
expensive proposition as well,and and fundamentally and
Brendan called out two of thewedges Another one is just ego.
(11:42):
I mean, you know there's allthose things get wrapped up into
this money change, ego, I mean,and that, of course, is going
to breed some anxiety.
And so I think, starting byjust acknowledging like hey, you
know, there are definitelygoing to be some rocky times,
you know here, but nothingthat's insurmountable If we can
(12:04):
level this and sort of groundthis in where it starts.
And that's insurmountable If wecan level this and sort of
ground this in where it starts.
And that is, I care for you, Iwant the best for you, I really
want to understand you, andthat's what we're trying to draw
out and facilitate.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
And is that also what led to the workbook?
Because not only have theseguys done two editions of their
book, but they have also done aworkbook.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
I mean, is this a way to kind of make sure that
whatever they've read, they kindof follow up on these families.
Yeah, exactly, and we were.
You know, after the book wasout for a year or two, we were
hearing more and more from bothfamilies but also counselors,
saying you know, there's so muchgreat stuff here.
We'd love to have some kind oflike really practical ways to
(12:48):
use this book and our coursesand at school and our families,
like what are some activitiesand things like that we can do?
And so that's really what ledus to build out the workbook.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
So I want to go back also to the beginning part of
the title of your podcast andyour book the Truth About
College Admissions.
So talk to us a little bitabout why that was an important
thing to put in.
What is the truth?
That's not getting around, orwhat are people telling each
other?
That you're hearing Speaking ofsickle?
Speaker 4 (13:23):
Well, it's more about the, the, the misinformation
Right and there's so much noiseout there about college
admission.
I mean, we we do, we dopresentations all over the
country and go to high schoolsand go to communities and and
talk with families and talk withstudents, students and it is
(13:51):
amazing just to hear kind of themisconceptions, the myths, the
falsehoods about collegeadmission that folks are getting
honestly from things likeReddit and College Confidential
and Discord and you know theirneighbor or you know whoever it
is.
Speaker 5 (14:01):
And we wanted to kind of recenter on the truth and
you know we don't pretend tohave all the truths but we did
want to focus folks on kind ofwhat really matters and and try
to try to kind of cut throughthe noise a bit as someone who
(14:28):
works on the higher ed side, youknow colleges in general in our
country right now are under themicroscope or sort of in the
crosshairs, a little bit aboutnot being as transparent or not
being as clear as perhaps weshould or could be, and I would
say that's actually evenelevated a little bit for
admission.
You know that really deservedly.
(14:48):
A lot of my colleagues aroundthe country get criticism for
really not being terriblytransparent about what's
happening and you know, I thinkthat we set out to, as Bren said
, maybe not be able to covereverything, but just to be as
honest as possible and explain.
Okay, look, fundamentally,college admission is not fair.
(15:11):
It was never built to be fair.
It's about accomplishing right.
It's about accomplishing acertain mission and you know, at
the end of the day collegeadmission, another thing.
When we ask people about this,they say things like college
admission what comes to mind,it's a black box, you know, it's
the Hunger Games, it's allthese other things, and I think
(15:33):
for us, what we want to say islisten, it's actually quite
simple.
Admission comes down to twothings Supply and demand right,
how many seats do you have andhow many applications are you
receiving and institutionalpriorities.
What are you trying toaccomplish?
And that is it.
And we should just beunapologetic and honest about
the fact that.
You know what, if you're GeorgiaTech, as an example, and you're
(15:54):
a public institution, it isgoing to be easier to get in
from Georgia than from anywhereelse.
That is simply the truth andthat is logical.
Also, it is not not fair,necessarily, but it makes sense
because we're a public in thestate, receiving dollars from
the state, and we're trying toaccomplish something in
particular which is a certaincomposition, right, and I think
(16:15):
the more that we can just try tosay like these are the.
This is the honest landscape.
You may not like it, but thisis reality.
We're going to gain confidenceand I think also give confidence
because at least people thenknow how to navigate the reality
of what you know collegeadmission and enrollment might
(16:36):
look like.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
And there's.
You know, even the mostintelligent people, when they
get into this experience, loseperspective really quickly.
And also, like Rick was saying,I mean there tends to be a lot
of happy talk in collegeadmission you know from.
I mean it is sales in a lot ofways and I mean that's something
(16:58):
I think anybody who's readanything Rick has written or
heard him speak has written orheard him speak.
I mean, like he is one of thefolks on the mission side who is
really transparent and and iswilling to kind of, and he has
the support of his institutionand, um to to really just be
honest about, uh, the realitiesof this, uh, this process.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
So as long as we're talking about, you know, the
fairness and the process ofstudents in admissions, you talk
in your book about theadmissions funnel and I think
for any of us who are in highereducation you know, we know what
that means, but I'm not sureeverybody does so could you,
(17:43):
could you explain a little bitabout how that works?
Speaker 5 (17:46):
Yeah, I'm happy to take a crack at it.
You know, this is how admissiondirectors or VPs from
enrollment think.
They always think through thefunnel and the idea being at the
very top, you have,theoretically, all possible
students out there.
We won't even just see highschool grads, because you could
be thinking about adult learnersand transfer students and
(18:08):
others, but there's this top ofthe funnel that is very big
prospective students.
And then, of course, you godown the funnel to those who
actually show interest in yourinstitution, by either raising
their hand to say pleasecommunicate with me, or, if you
want to go a little further downthe funnel, by saying I'm
(18:29):
applying.
And then, of your applicants,you narrow it further to say
here are those that either arequalified to be here or do the
work, or they're competitive orcompelling within our applicant
pool.
I think depending on how manypeople you have applying
dictates the nuance withinadmission right.
(18:54):
Working down from there, we havewhat we, as the inside baseball
wonky jargon, talk call yield,which is, you know, for Georgia
Tech.
Just to use an example, forevery 10 admission offers we put
out to Georgians, about sevenof them will say yes, and so
that is yield and that's thegroup that deposit.
They say I've been admitted toother schools but I'm picking
you, I'm putting down my moneyto come.
(19:14):
And then you have the summerwhere people break up with each
other and things fall apart andthey get cold feet and other
things happen and we call thatmelt, which means that of those
deposited still none of themshow up.
And then you have day one andthat is they're actually there
and they enroll, and so you kindof work down the funnel and you
(19:35):
know, we think about the funnelbeing all the things we care
about, you know, trying todevelop and build diverse
pipelines of talent from ourstate, from our region, from
around the country, from abroadfor certain majors.
Whatever you're trying toaccomplish, you try to build the
top of the funnel so that, asit works down, you end up
ultimately with the type ofclass, the shape of class that
(19:57):
you were asked to produce by apresident or a board or whomever
it might be.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
And I think students and families are well advised to
kind of think of the funnel intheir own way, right, like they
might have you know, 50 schools.
They begin researching kind ofon the larger scale and then you
know, it narrows and narrows asthey kind of refine their
criteria and what they'reinterested in, and maybe they go
(20:24):
visit 10 to 20 or do onlinevisits with 10 to 20.
And then that narrows down andthey get to you know 10 or so
that they're applying to, andthat narrows down and then they
get the ones they've beenadmitted to and and finally, you
know, at the end of the funnelit's the one school they choose
to enroll.
And so I think that kind ofmirrors, that funnel mirrors
(20:47):
what they're looking at on thecollege side.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
You know, I'm in New England and we just had sugaring
season and it makes me think of, you know, all the sap, all
those buckets of sap that justboil and boil and boil and get
down to the syrup that you want.
So, from from both perspectives, from the school and from from
the student, hopefully you getdown to that really sweet spot
(21:11):
at the end and it takes coldnights and warm days.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
So, brendan, you talked about students having
their own funnel and I love thatbecause I think you and Rick
too have talked.
You know, speak to students inways to talk to them about the
things that are in their controland the choices that they can
make, and I think to your point.
It does feel very much and Ithink, rick was I just reading a
(21:40):
post of yours about like thingsdidn't happen to you in the
admissions process.
Speaker 5 (21:46):
Can you talk?
Speaker 3 (21:46):
a little bit about that post yeah.
Speaker 5 (21:49):
Yeah, I wrote a blog where, basically, this idea of
you know things aren't happeningto you, they're happening for
you and if you can think aboutit that way, you know it just
really changes the wholeparadigm, right.
You know, just really changesthe whole paradigm, right?
So take what a lot of studentsfeel like is a huge ego hit and
something that they strugglewith a little bit being deferred
(22:12):
, right, or being waitlisted.
You can look at that as gosh,like I got deferred and they
don't want me and now I've gotto do all these other things and
I'm going to have to waitlonger and all of this.
That is a way to you know,approach being deferred.
Conversely, you can look atthat as, hey, I'm being given an
(22:34):
opportunity here to tell themmore about myself.
They're asking me to send myfall grades, they're asking me
to write an additionalsupplementary essay and I get a
little bit more time to consider, like, is this the school I
want to go to?
What are my other choices andoptions?
And be really intentional about, you know, my senior year and
(22:55):
everything that's kind of movingfrom there.
Frankly, I would say the samething about being denied.
You know, all right, that hurts.
Sure, you know we need tounderstand that you wanted
something and that door isclosing.
Or you know, all right, thathurts.
Sure, you know we need tounderstand that you wanted
something and that door isclosing, or you know it has
closed, but to me that is not adead end.
That is just.
That's a speed bump on thejourney.
Right, and you know, time andtime again, when you talk to
(23:19):
students at any college campusand certainly college graduates
they look back and talk abouthow thankful they are for the
door being closed or howthankful they are that they,
like at Georgia Tech, we havesome students start in the
summer.
We tell them listen, fall's notan option, you need to start in
summer.
Almost all those students calland say but do I really have to?
(23:40):
I was going to go to Italy or Iwas going to do this.
Whatever, you talk to kids atthe end of the summer or the end
of their fall, after comingsummer and then having fall, and
they all say how thankful theyare that that was.
You know, in the end, theexperience they had.
It did not happen to them, ithappened for them and I really
think that you know there's manyof these type of ways that we
(24:01):
can look at what's going on inthe college admission experience
and say, really, if you embraceit and Brennan and I talk this
a lot college admission, Ibelieve, when done right, is in
a lot of ways a guidepost andsort of a bit of a manual for
how you should also approachyour college in general, your
(24:21):
college experience and reallylife beyond college too, if you
can flip that from this happenedto me to this happened for me
to have that perspective andthat confidence that carries you
through what is inevitablygoing to be some disappointments
in college, some reroutes incollege, some doors closed in
college and life as well.
So, really, college admission Ithink you know Brennan talks a
(24:42):
lot about this Like it's notsomething that's just like a
rite of passage or somethingthat you have to do, like
actually a privilege, issomething you get to do that has
bearing way beyond just thislittle small time or period in
your high school career.
It's preparation for life andcertainly for college.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Right, it's just an important way to reframe it.
I mean, I think you know, asespecially as students are
starting out their collegesearch, if they can, if they can
reframe it in that kind of Iget to do this, not I have to do
this, it it.
It changes it from like, ok, Ineed to endure the college
process.
Right, I need to get through, Ineed to, like, survive it.
(25:20):
It's this, this whole mythabout, about, like, how
miserable it has to be and it'sreally a chance.
It's a time of opportunity andit's a time to explore and to
dream and to think big.
And, yes, there's details andthere's.
You know, it can be selectiveif you're looking at a certain
group of schools, but there's somuch opportunity tied up in
(25:40):
this experience and so, yeah,we're all about reframing that.
Well, and I feel like one ofthe things you've done in this
experience, and so, yeah, we'reall about reframing that.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Well, and I feel like one of the things you've done
in this book that maybe is meantto bring not quite levity but a
little bit of like stressrelief, is starting each chapter
with a quote, often from a song.
So it feels like a verydeliberate choice you made.
First of all, I suspected itwas Brennan's idea.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
Actually, it was Rick's idea.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Oh okay, so why do that?
What was the idea behind that?
Because I do feel like a lot ofwhat you talk about is trying
to make this process just seemmore pleasant and less onerous.
Is that part of the idea?
Speaker 5 (26:26):
That's certainly part of the idea.
I mean no question about it,and you know a lot of my.
I mean Brendan writes forForbes and you know a lot of
other outlets.
I most of my writing honestlyhad been a blog, very casual and
lots of life parallels to thecollege admission experience,
whether they like it or not.
I talk a lot about my familyand things that are happening,
(26:48):
because I think that if you drawparallels whether it be a song
quote or just life around us andobservations of life around us,
it shows that you know what.
This is not in isolation andthis is not something you're
actually ill-equipped orunfamiliar with.
This is actually seen inregular life all the time and if
(27:10):
we can draw that in again, Imean, and to be honest with you,
with parents, almost everypanel I'm on or program I go to
some parent, whether it be inpublic or afterwards, will ask
what's my role Like, how am Isupposed to, how do I do this?
Well, and it's, of course,coming from a great place.
You know they really want toknow and and I really truly
(27:31):
believe that parents you knowwho, who love their kids, the
biggest gift that they canreally provide is perspective,
because they're not going tohave all the answers.
The way they went through thecollege admission process back
in the 1900s is very differentthan now and there's all kinds
(27:52):
of things that are changing evenon an annual basis, right, that
college counselors like Brennanare trying to keep up with.
So they're not going to haveall the answers, but what they
can tell is how.
You know.
You know our neighbor, like ourneighbor, didn't go right to
college.
He went into the military andthen he ended up, you know,
coming in after that to get hisdegree.
Or you know Aunt Sally, likeshe was so heartbroken when she
(28:16):
didn't get into her first choice.
She thought the world had ended.
And in the end, you know howmuch she loves her alma mater.
You would never have known that, right.
And I think that that type ofperspective and that type of you
know life beyond collegeadmission, drawing it in so that
the song idea is just to say,hey, yes, some levity, some
enjoyment, some just likecasualness about this, but also,
(28:38):
yeah, just this is notsomething you are unfamiliar
with or ill-equipped to handle.
Yeah, just this is notsomething you are unfamiliar
with or ill-equipped to handle.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
And you know we often share this Mark Twain quote
when we do presentations.
That Rick kind of shared withme.
But it was when I was 17, myfather was so stupid I didn't
want to be seen with him inpublic.
When I was 24, I was amazed athow much the old man had learned
(29:05):
in just seven years.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
That's great.
Well, you know, rick spoke toparents' role in the process and
one of the things that I lovein the book is you encourage
parents to go from the firstperson plural we you know to my
student, the royal we.
Yeah, the royal, we, the royal,we.
(29:28):
And you know you ask yourguests at the start of every
interview to talk about theircollege experience and you know
I reminisced about doing that ona typewriter.
And to Rick's point, thingshave really changed in the
decades since those of us whowent to college went.
But even since then, and Iwould say you know, in the last
(29:50):
two years and your book came out, what kinds of changes do
families need to be thinkingabout?
And Brennan, especially assomebody who's helping students,
you know, think about wherethey want to go.
What kinds of you know?
What is your advice?
Has it changed based on a lotof things that have happened?
You know, think about wherethey want to go.
What kinds of you know.
What is your advice?
Has it changed based on a lotof things that have happened?
Speaker 4 (30:08):
changed on a lot of things that have happened.
This also changed.
I mean, I've seen it.
I have two children in collegeand I've seen it with my own
kids, you know.
And college is just.
I think if we can get beyondthis I mean rick talks about
that like the next four yearsversus the next 40 years but I
think we can get beyond thisidea of the like this linear
(30:29):
journey, right, this like OK,four years you go to one college
, you graduate.
I mean that's ideal for a lotof families and but for a lot of
people in this country that'snot how it works.
Yeah, my son, for example,started as a February freshman
and, you know, didn't startright in the fall and it was the
best thing that ever happenedto him.
He worked on a organic farm forthe fall and made money and had
(30:53):
had a break from school andstarted, started college in such
a different mindset, just readyto learn and excited.
My daughter went to collegewasn't the right fit.
She's transferring, you know,like it's just, it's not.
It's not the zero sum game,it's not this like perfect
(31:13):
pathway and I think collegesmore and more have all kinds of
different options and we seecredentialing kind of becoming a
bigger thing, and we see peoplestarting at community colleges
more and transferring, andGeorgia Tech has some great
pathways programs, for example,and I mean like there's
(31:36):
semesters abroad to startcollege and things like that.
There are just so manydifferent pathways and so I
think if folks can kind of layto rest some of their the ways
they used to think about acollege education and think
about it more as this kind ofjourney, I think that's a lot of
what's changing.
Speaker 5 (31:57):
Yeah, I would echo that.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Do you have any thoughts about how we get that
message out to parents?
How do we help families notthink so much straight line?
Speaker 4 (32:10):
I think it's more and more storytelling.
Yeah, I mean, I think they justneed to hear the stories,
because when they can hear andthat's why we to your point,
elizabeth, that's why we askthat question when we do our
podcast interviews because if Ithink it'd be interesting for us
to go back and just like stringthem all together for an
episode, play them all, becausevery rarely is it.
(32:33):
I went to this one school andyou know it's like I started a
local community college or Istarted this school, I probably
would have been better off atthis school.
Or you know, like the journeysoff at this school, or you know,
like the journeys are just notlinear and and you know, we even
(32:54):
do a, a exercise that a lot ofour talks, where we have
students identify the CEO orpresident of different brands
that they kind of like in theirlife.
Like, okay, look up the, the umpresident of nike or whatever,
whatever you know some brand orsomething in their lives, and
just to see the, the breadth ofinstitutions they attended, and
(33:18):
just to understand, um, what the, the kind of landscape is for
college admission is, I think,really powerful.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
I was using AI the other day to create some images
and I don't know if you guyshave, you know, tinkered around
with this much, but for whateverreason, even if you put quotes
with words right that you wantto, let's say, put this word on
a building or you want to putthis word on a cloud or
something, ai actually does aterrible job, um spelling things
(33:49):
correctly, even if you quote it, and it's because of the way
the algorithm is actuallypulling in um, it seems so
logical that you put in quotesof exactly what you would want
said.
Like coming up with the imageseems harder than coming up with
just like pushing the word ontothe building.
But anyway, I had the wordcollege on this image and it
(34:12):
spelled it literally with threeL's.
And I started thinking, vicki,to your question, like that's
what we should start doing, iswe should start spelling college
with like three or four L's,because of what Brennan is
saying about this idea ofcollege is a big word, it's a
much bigger word than we give itcredit for, and people think,
(34:35):
especially parents, like Ishowed up in August with my bags
packed and four years later Ileft, and that's just not how
it's working now and back toyour question about the funnel.
There's never been a better timethan now to be a good student.
There are so many options outthere that the funnel actually
in many ways has been shrinking.
(34:55):
You know we all go into thewhole demographic cliff thing or
geopolitical, you knowrelationships abroad, but like
there are real threats to thetop of the funnel, not to
mention like the challenges tothe value of college and return
on investment, all of that, ifyou are a good student who's
just like walking into the roomsyou can walk into every day and
taking care of your business,being a good student in the
(35:17):
classroom and having an impacton the community, you're more
bigger.
You know your challenge isactually to be closing doors to
all of the choices and optionsyou have and I think that that's
one of the things that we cancontinue and we do try to stress
.
Every time that we give apresentation, we ask you know,
how many schools do you thinkadmit less than 25 or 30?
(35:38):
And the truth is that's such asmall slice of American higher
education.
Most schools are admitting moststudents and the more we can
collectively work together totell that story that college is
a big word and that you knowgood students have great options
, then I think we're on theright track.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
And as we try to tell the stories and get parents to
understand that, because they'revery concerned about where
their students are going to windup, some families are relying a
lot on consultants hiringadmissions consultants and
college consultants and I thinkwe recognize that as much as
(36:25):
you're trying to keep familiesfocused on what really matters.
There are many that are notquite there yet, and so hiring a
consultant could preserve thefamily dynamic.
But are there things that arethere red flags?
(36:47):
Are there things that parentsmight want to be careful of as
they think about whether or notto hire a consultant or what
consultant to hire?
Speaker 4 (36:56):
yeah, I mean, and I do consultancy work, I think
there is I'm biased, but I thinkthere is, you know, I think
there is.
I mean I'm biased, but I thinkthere's a role for consultants.
I mean, I think there is.
Unfortunately, there are a lotof students in this country
don't have access to counselingand support, and so I think
(37:17):
there's a role and there's arole for pro bono counseling and
there's a role for, you know,consultants to help families.
I would say.
I mean, if you're on socialmedia and you've probably seen a
lot of the consultants thatprey on fear, and I would go
running the other direction.
(37:37):
Or I think, the consultants whohave certain titles that are
all about like top colleges ortop tier or focused on one
subset of colleges, like Ivy orIvy this or Ivy that, or you
know, whatever it might be.
(37:59):
I think maybe that's fine forsome people, but I think it does
the opposite of what Rick and Iwere just talking about.
It narrows it.
There's only this one set ofacceptable colleges and we
somehow have the kind of secretsauce to get you in there, and
(38:23):
it's just not what thisexperience, it's not what
education is about.
So so that would be my piece.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
So I I know we need to finish up.
I want to.
I want to keep talking for along time because I think you
know I want to hear what youhave to say, but I think a lot
of families do too.
But we do have a time limitbecause everybody's busy.
So I'd like to end by askingeach one more question.
I really liked that you sort ofclose your book with closing
(38:57):
letters.
You each write a letter tofamilies, and it felt very
personal and it summed up a lotof what you're saying.
So what I'd like to do is giveyou each a quote from your
letter and ask you why you endedwith that and why that was your
message.
And I may have pulled somethingthat wasn't at all what you
(39:17):
wanted to talk about, but you'regoing to try.
So, rick, let me start with you.
And you just said control whatyou can control.
Why is that your message?
Speaker 5 (39:29):
Yeah Well, first of all, with Johns Hopkins and
publishing this, they farmed itout for an audio book.
I guess this is like a standardcontract.
And so I've heard people say,oh, I listened to your book, you
know, and I I've told every oneof them that we asked to find
if you want to do that.
(39:49):
But, like, can we just read ourletters?
You know, even if you had thesame person do the rest of the
book, like we would love to doour letters because it is
personal, you know, it ispersonal and no-transcript
(40:28):
happens in that room.
They end up gettingdocumentaries made about them
and Netflix they go to jail, youknow.
But you can control your livingroom, right, you can control
your classroom and how you showup in your living room, how you
show up in your classroom.
And back to that point aboutwhen we asked the question,
college admission, what comes tomind?
(40:49):
And people say stress some ofthat because it feels unwieldy
and it feels like things theydon't know or things they can't
control.
But you know what, what Brennanand I like and this is my, this
is my take on it there's 25% atthe very beginning of this that
you fully control.
And that is where do I want toapply?
You know nobody is making youapply to certain colleges and so
(41:12):
you get to choose of all theseamazing places.
Where do I want to apply?
All right, that's fully in yourcontrol.
There's 25% there that is not inyour control.
How much?
You know?
How much money do they give youto come and do you get in?
Sure, that's true.
But if you came up with a goodlist of places, a balanced list
of places, you know that weresome predictable and some less
(41:34):
predictable.
You're going to have optionsand that's where we get right.
We get to this point where youget to choose where you go.
You've gotten into three orfive of the 10 or 11 you applied
to and now you get to pick.
You get to choose based onaffordability and match and all
those things, and that, if youstopped there, that would be 67%
(41:55):
.
That'd be two thirds, which ispretty good.
I think most of us would lovetwo thirds of control of our day
.
But during the pandemic, Ipicked everybody up eight extra
percentage points to go from 67to 75% by teaching a class at
Georgia Tech.
It's a freshman seminar classand I saw kids show up in very
(42:15):
different ways.
Some of them showed up in fallof 2020, just pissed off that.
This is my college experience.
We're wearing masks, we'resocial, distanced.
Only 57% of the campus is herelike this is college.
And then you had these otherstudents showing up, same
classroom and they're like thisis amazing, you know, like I'm
(42:37):
out of the basement and there'sother kids my age here and
they're just like all in fullygoing to embrace and take
advantage of the place.
They ended up right and, whoknows, in that same classroom
there were some that didn't getinto their first choice or
couldn't afford one of theplaces they went, but when they
showed up where they showed up,they were fully engaged and
(42:59):
that's 75% control of thecollege admission experience.
And think about that.
You got to choose where youapplied, you got to pick where
you went and you showed up withthis mentality of going to fully
embrace it.
Like, in my opinion, that iswinning, that is success, more
than a certain bumper sticker,more than anything else, and so
(43:20):
when you reframe it that way,you go from stress to wait.
Okay, that actually soundspretty good.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
It does.
Yes, all right, just Brennan, Iwant to give you one and then
we'll let you go.
Brennan, you said thisexperience is about
relationships, communication andchoice communication breaking
(44:10):
down just in society and infamilies.
Speaker 4 (44:11):
And we see what happens when we don't nurture
relationships and don't havedialogue around things.
And you know, I thinkrelationships within the family,
but just also kind of writlarge, are so important to
overall success.
As we talk about success andkind of just general happiness
(44:34):
and contentness in life, and youknow, you see the loneliness
epidemic and I mean everything,it all comes back to
relationships and how we treateach other and how we engage
with each other and and thatleads to choice.
When you can nurture thoserelationships and when you can
communicate well with otherpeople, then you it comes.
(44:57):
I mean, it goes hand in handwith what Rick's talking about,
with control, right, like, ifyou um, can, um, uh, just build
on those and, um, nurture thosepieces, then you'll have choices
.
You'll have choices and andlife is about choice and college
is about choice.
And when you limit it to oh I,you know, this one school is,
(45:22):
this is the only choice I have,or this one experience is the
only choice I have, it's just itshuts things down.
So it's all about relationships.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
I think that that's a wonderful place to end this
conversation, since we can'tkeep going and we're going to
put some information in the shownotes about your book and about
how people can follow up ifthey need to follow up.
But we're so grateful to youtwo for being here and sharing
what you have and thank you so,so much.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
Thanks for having me.
I enjoyed it, thank you.
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already in college, this podcast is for you.
You'll find food for thoughtand information about college
and about navigating thatdelicate balance of guidance,
involvement and knowing when toget out of the way.
(00:31):
Join your hosts as they sharesupport and a celebration of the
amazing experience of having achild in college.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
This is the podcast where wetalk about all sorts of things
that have to do with parenting acollege student parenting a
student who is getting ready togo to college, thinking about
college, and sometimes evenstudents who have just graduated
(01:04):
from college.
My name is Vicki Nelson and Iam a professor of communication,
and I am also, perhaps moreimportantly, the mom of three
daughters who have gone on tocollege and come out the other
side.
So I come to this topic both asa professional in the world of
(01:27):
higher education and as a mom,and I am here today with one of
my co-hosts, Elizabeth Hamblett,and I am going to allow her to
introduce herself and tointroduce two very exciting
guests that we have joining ustoday.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I am so excited about our guest today, Vicki, I have
been following the work of RickClark and Brennan Barnard for a
number of years.
They are out there doing whatthey can too and I'm holding
this up for the video Me tootell everybody the truth about
college admission and make surethat families stay together
(02:09):
while their students get in.
So they have been kind enough tohave me on their excellent
podcast of the same name, and soit's just my honor and delight
to be able to host them now onthe one you let me co-host every
once in a while.
So for those who are new to meand the podcast, I'm Elizabeth
Hamblett.
(02:29):
I am the author of Seven Stepsto College Success A Pathway for
Students with Disabilities, andI first connected with Rick
when I was seeking admissionsdirectors at colleges to talk to
me about the college admissionprocess and answer some
questions for students withdisabilities, and he is just as
kind and generous a person asyou can imagine.
(02:51):
And then I got to meet Brennanand appreciate their work
together.
So with that, I'm going to askBrennan because I'm an English
major who likes alphabeticalorder to start by introducing
himself and his work, and thenwe'll ask Rick to do that.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Great Thanks.
Thanks for having us.
So I'm Brennan Barnard.
I'm the Director of CollegeCounseling for Khan Lab School,
which is an in-personmastery-based school founded by
Sal Khan of Khan Academy andit's out in Mountain View.
I live in New Hampshire, I workremotely and it's out in
(03:26):
Mountain View, I live in NewHampshire, I work remotely and I
also do some work with theMaking Caring Common project at
Harvard Grad School of Educationand also with the College
Guidance Network and a bunch ofother random stuff.
Speaker 5 (03:38):
Great and my name is Rick Clark.
I am the Executive Director forStrategic Student Access at
Georgia Tech.
I've been at Georgia Tech nowfor over 20 years.
Most of that was inundergraduate admission.
As you mentioned, elizabeth, mynew role is focused on the
future of enrollment at GeorgiaTech, specifically as it relates
(03:59):
to return on investment andeconomic mobility for students
return on investment andeconomic mobility for students.
But in terms of my work beyondGeorgia Tech, I founded the
Georgia Tech Admission Blog,which still continues.
It's never about us, it'salways kind of the broader
ecosystem of higher ed and theadmission and enrollment
landscape.
(04:19):
And then also, brennan and Ipartnered, as you said, on
writing the book, and then wecontinue to do the podcast.
Our overall goal and whatbrings us together really is
just this idea of bringingperspective and trying to
reassure families that the mostimportant thing is each other
(04:41):
and that in the vast majority ofcases.
You know you can't control alot of this, but it really does
work out and being close andlistening to one another is way
more important than some bumpersticker.
So we have that in common, eventhough our work day to day
varies and we kind of come at itfrom different perspectives.
I think that's what also makesit strong yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
So you've already addressed a little bit one of my
questions, which was going tobe you know why write a book for
families and you've talkedabout that.
But I'm curious one of thethings you have in the book
which is so interesting is thisfamily check-in at the end of
every chapter.
I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about why you decided
(05:25):
to put that in and what thatdoes for us as families.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
Yeah, I'll start and then, Rick, you can add on.
I mean I think we really wantedto.
I mean, you know, we hadwritten a bunch of chapters
about different aspects of theadmission experience and we
really wanted families to cometogether to process it and have
conversations.
And a lot of what we talk aboutin the book is having
(05:53):
conversations early and oftenabout not just college admission
and not just this idea ofgetting in, but this idea of how
can this be a collaborativeexperience and something that
brings you together as a family.
I mean, some of my my bestmemories of times with my mom is
(06:14):
no longer living and my dad areare are the college journey
right Like going to visitcolleges and just that, that
process, that time of life whereyou're kind of discovering
yourself, and, and parents playan important role in that.
And so we really wanted notjust folks to just kind of read
(06:34):
the chapter and and and takeaway on on their own what they
would, but for families to cometogether and talk about it
families come together and talkabout it.
Speaker 5 (06:43):
Yeah, and I mean, like you alluded to, vicki, the
end of each chapter.
We try to facilitate someconversations and just prompt
people to either read somethingadditional or reflect back on
what they just read and givethem some rails to run on,
because I think oftentimes, youknow, we either make assumptions
about where the you knowstudent or the parents are in
(07:04):
terms of communication, or evenwhile we might have our best
intention, I mean the benefitthat Brennan and I get is we get
this is cyclical and it repeatsitself time and time again.
So for both of us, fromdifferent perspectives, watching
it repeat itself 20 plus times,you know we can get out in
front of that and use what we'velearned and what we've observed
(07:26):
families do really well orhorribly in an unhealthy way,
and facilitate better, morehealthy conversations.
And you know, I really firmlybelieve that 40 is greater than
four and that in a lot of casespeople focus so much on the next
four years, but we should befocused on the next 40 years of
relationship together, andthat's really what this is about
(07:49):
.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
That's really an interesting idea, and I think so
often parents forget that someof the advice that we're giving
them all of us in this worlddoes come from seeing it over,
year after year after year afteryear.
And you do learn a lot and canshare from that.
That's great.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
And Rick, you've also in part answered my next, one
part of my next question, whichis about the title, which I
think is really important.
So you've answered the questionabout why you talked about
staying together to a certainextent.
But I think too and I you know,the conversation you had with
Sasha Timi of University ofIndiana recently and she's a
(08:33):
very kind person too was sointeresting to me and a
reiteration of some of thoseideas about having these frank
conversations about.
You know what can the familymanage?
You know financially and youknow how do the parents see
students.
So can you talk a little bit,both of you, about, like, what
you see families doing?
(08:54):
That sort of isn't working tostay them together, help them
stay together where they shouldbe going with that, brennan you
want to start.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of times families fail to
have conversations about kindof expectations.
And we talk about the wedges atthe beginning of the book,
excuse me, of time andcommunication and so often there
(09:26):
are certain expectations orcertain approaches to this
experience that families haveand they're not talking about
them and it kind of festers.
And then you know it might notcome out until later in the, you
know, the fall of senior yearwhen things are getting a little
stressful and applications arehappening, and then it's too
(09:47):
late to have these conversations.
Or they're waiting to havefinancial conversations until
April of the senior year whenall the packages are back, and
then it's too late.
And so we're trying to getfamilies to talk proactively
about relationships andexpectations and limitations and
(10:09):
any conditions they might haveon the admission experience.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
Yeah, and you know.
Again back to, I guess, vicki,as you particularly called out,
the end of every chapter to justsort of continue to level set,
you know, and walking peoplethrough what they can expect and
you know understandably whythis, you know, from a student
side and from a family side is alittle stressful and
(10:38):
acknowledging that.
But once we kind of help getthat out on the table, it's
really logical.
I mean fundamentally and westart with this in chapter one
like parents and familiessurrounding students, they love
their kids and that gets lost inthe nagging or it gets lost in
the pressure and it manifestsitself in different ways.
(10:59):
But fundamentally, I think thereason why and Brennan and I
start a lot of our talks wherewe'll ask, you know, college
admission, what comes to mind,and almost inevitably, no matter
what state or country you're in, one of the number one answers
on the board is stress andparents say that in particular
and it's like well, why, why,why is it stressful?
And you know, you think aboutit's like I've got two teenagers
(11:21):
in my house now.
It's like it's the turning of apage of a family dynamic and
relationship and change ofcourse brings stress to any
human and you love your kids.
And then also, you know, weknow it's going to be an
expensive proposition as well,and and fundamentally and
Brendan called out two of thewedges Another one is just ego.
(11:42):
I mean, you know there's allthose things get wrapped up into
this money change, ego, I mean,and that, of course, is going
to breed some anxiety.
And so I think, starting byjust acknowledging like hey, you
know, there are definitelygoing to be some rocky times,
you know here, but nothingthat's insurmountable If we can
(12:04):
level this and sort of groundthis in where it starts.
And that's insurmountable If wecan level this and sort of
ground this in where it starts.
And that is, I care for you, Iwant the best for you, I really
want to understand you, andthat's what we're trying to draw
out and facilitate.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
And is that also what led to the workbook?
Because not only have theseguys done two editions of their
book, but they have also done aworkbook.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
I mean, is this a way to kind of make sure that
whatever they've read, they kindof follow up on these families.
Yeah, exactly, and we were.
You know, after the book wasout for a year or two, we were
hearing more and more from bothfamilies but also counselors,
saying you know, there's so muchgreat stuff here.
We'd love to have some kind oflike really practical ways to
(12:48):
use this book and our coursesand at school and our families,
like what are some activitiesand things like that we can do?
And so that's really what ledus to build out the workbook.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
So I want to go back also to the beginning part of
the title of your podcast andyour book the Truth About
College Admissions.
So talk to us a little bitabout why that was an important
thing to put in.
What is the truth?
That's not getting around, orwhat are people telling each
other?
That you're hearing Speaking ofsickle?
Speaker 4 (13:23):
Well, it's more about the, the, the misinformation
Right and there's so much noiseout there about college
admission.
I mean, we we do, we dopresentations all over the
country and go to high schoolsand go to communities and and
talk with families and talk withstudents, students and it is
(13:51):
amazing just to hear kind of themisconceptions, the myths, the
falsehoods about collegeadmission that folks are getting
honestly from things likeReddit and College Confidential
and Discord and you know theirneighbor or you know whoever it
is.
Speaker 5 (14:01):
And we wanted to kind of recenter on the truth and
you know we don't pretend tohave all the truths but we did
want to focus folks on kind ofwhat really matters and and try
to try to kind of cut throughthe noise a bit as someone who
(14:28):
works on the higher ed side, youknow colleges in general in our
country right now are under themicroscope or sort of in the
crosshairs, a little bit aboutnot being as transparent or not
being as clear as perhaps weshould or could be, and I would
say that's actually evenelevated a little bit for
admission.
You know that really deservedly.
(14:48):
A lot of my colleagues aroundthe country get criticism for
really not being terriblytransparent about what's
happening and you know, I thinkthat we set out to, as Bren said
, maybe not be able to covereverything, but just to be as
honest as possible and explain.
Okay, look, fundamentally,college admission is not fair.
(15:11):
It was never built to be fair.
It's about accomplishing right.
It's about accomplishing acertain mission and you know, at
the end of the day collegeadmission, another thing.
When we ask people about this,they say things like college
admission what comes to mind,it's a black box, you know, it's
the Hunger Games, it's allthese other things, and I think
(15:33):
for us, what we want to say islisten, it's actually quite
simple.
Admission comes down to twothings Supply and demand right,
how many seats do you have andhow many applications are you
receiving and institutionalpriorities.
What are you trying toaccomplish?
And that is it.
And we should just beunapologetic and honest about
the fact that.
You know what, if you're GeorgiaTech, as an example, and you're
(15:54):
a public institution, it isgoing to be easier to get in
from Georgia than from anywhereelse.
That is simply the truth andthat is logical.
Also, it is not not fair,necessarily, but it makes sense
because we're a public in thestate, receiving dollars from
the state, and we're trying toaccomplish something in
particular which is a certaincomposition, right, and I think
(16:15):
the more that we can just try tosay like these are the.
This is the honest landscape.
You may not like it, but thisis reality.
We're going to gain confidenceand I think also give confidence
because at least people thenknow how to navigate the reality
of what you know collegeadmission and enrollment might
(16:36):
look like.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
And there's.
You know, even the mostintelligent people, when they
get into this experience, loseperspective really quickly.
And also, like Rick was saying,I mean there tends to be a lot
of happy talk in collegeadmission you know from.
I mean it is sales in a lot ofways and I mean that's something
(16:58):
I think anybody who's readanything Rick has written or
heard him speak has written orheard him speak.
I mean, like he is one of thefolks on the mission side who is
really transparent and and iswilling to kind of, and he has
the support of his institutionand, um to to really just be
honest about, uh, the realitiesof this, uh, this process.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
So as long as we're talking about, you know, the
fairness and the process ofstudents in admissions, you talk
in your book about theadmissions funnel and I think
for any of us who are in highereducation you know, we know what
that means, but I'm not sureeverybody does so could you,
(17:43):
could you explain a little bitabout how that works?
Speaker 5 (17:46):
Yeah, I'm happy to take a crack at it.
You know, this is how admissiondirectors or VPs from
enrollment think.
They always think through thefunnel and the idea being at the
very top, you have,theoretically, all possible
students out there.
We won't even just see highschool grads, because you could
be thinking about adult learnersand transfer students and
(18:08):
others, but there's this top ofthe funnel that is very big
prospective students.
And then, of course, you godown the funnel to those who
actually show interest in yourinstitution, by either raising
their hand to say pleasecommunicate with me, or, if you
want to go a little further downthe funnel, by saying I'm
(18:29):
applying.
And then, of your applicants,you narrow it further to say
here are those that either arequalified to be here or do the
work, or they're competitive orcompelling within our applicant
pool.
I think depending on how manypeople you have applying
dictates the nuance withinadmission right.
(18:54):
Working down from there, we havewhat we, as the inside baseball
wonky jargon, talk call yield,which is, you know, for Georgia
Tech.
Just to use an example, forevery 10 admission offers we put
out to Georgians, about sevenof them will say yes, and so
that is yield and that's thegroup that deposit.
They say I've been admitted toother schools but I'm picking
you, I'm putting down my moneyto come.
(19:14):
And then you have the summerwhere people break up with each
other and things fall apart andthey get cold feet and other
things happen and we call thatmelt, which means that of those
deposited still none of themshow up.
And then you have day one andthat is they're actually there
and they enroll, and so you kindof work down the funnel and you
(19:35):
know, we think about the funnelbeing all the things we care
about, you know, trying todevelop and build diverse
pipelines of talent from ourstate, from our region, from
around the country, from abroadfor certain majors.
Whatever you're trying toaccomplish, you try to build the
top of the funnel so that, asit works down, you end up
ultimately with the type ofclass, the shape of class that
(19:57):
you were asked to produce by apresident or a board or whomever
it might be.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
And I think students and families are well advised to
kind of think of the funnel intheir own way, right, like they
might have you know, 50 schools.
They begin researching kind ofon the larger scale and then you
know, it narrows and narrows asthey kind of refine their
criteria and what they'reinterested in, and maybe they go
(20:24):
visit 10 to 20 or do onlinevisits with 10 to 20.
And then that narrows down andthey get to you know 10 or so
that they're applying to, andthat narrows down and then they
get the ones they've beenadmitted to and and finally, you
know, at the end of the funnelit's the one school they choose
to enroll.
And so I think that kind ofmirrors, that funnel mirrors
(20:47):
what they're looking at on thecollege side.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
You know, I'm in New England and we just had sugaring
season and it makes me think of, you know, all the sap, all
those buckets of sap that justboil and boil and boil and get
down to the syrup that you want.
So, from from both perspectives, from the school and from from
the student, hopefully you getdown to that really sweet spot
(21:11):
at the end and it takes coldnights and warm days.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
So, brendan, you talked about students having
their own funnel and I love thatbecause I think you and Rick
too have talked.
You know, speak to students inways to talk to them about the
things that are in their controland the choices that they can
make, and I think to your point.
It does feel very much and Ithink, rick was I just reading a
(21:40):
post of yours about like thingsdidn't happen to you in the
admissions process.
Speaker 5 (21:46):
Can you talk?
Speaker 3 (21:46):
a little bit about that post yeah.
Speaker 5 (21:49):
Yeah, I wrote a blog where, basically, this idea of
you know things aren't happeningto you, they're happening for
you and if you can think aboutit that way, you know it just
really changes the wholeparadigm, right.
You know, just really changesthe whole paradigm, right?
So take what a lot of studentsfeel like is a huge ego hit and
something that they strugglewith a little bit being deferred
(22:12):
, right, or being waitlisted.
You can look at that as gosh,like I got deferred and they
don't want me and now I've gotto do all these other things and
I'm going to have to waitlonger and all of this.
That is a way to you know,approach being deferred.
Conversely, you can look atthat as, hey, I'm being given an
(22:34):
opportunity here to tell themmore about myself.
They're asking me to send myfall grades, they're asking me
to write an additionalsupplementary essay and I get a
little bit more time to consider, like, is this the school I
want to go to?
What are my other choices andoptions?
And be really intentional about, you know, my senior year and
(22:55):
everything that's kind of movingfrom there.
Frankly, I would say the samething about being denied.
You know, all right, that hurts.
Sure, you know we need tounderstand that you wanted
something and that door isclosing.
Or you know, all right, thathurts.
Sure, you know we need tounderstand that you wanted
something and that door isclosing, or you know it has
closed, but to me that is not adead end.
That is just.
That's a speed bump on thejourney.
Right, and you know, time andtime again, when you talk to
(23:19):
students at any college campusand certainly college graduates
they look back and talk abouthow thankful they are for the
door being closed or howthankful they are that they,
like at Georgia Tech, we havesome students start in the
summer.
We tell them listen, fall's notan option, you need to start in
summer.
Almost all those students calland say but do I really have to?
(23:40):
I was going to go to Italy or Iwas going to do this.
Whatever, you talk to kids atthe end of the summer or the end
of their fall, after comingsummer and then having fall, and
they all say how thankful theyare that that was.
You know, in the end, theexperience they had.
It did not happen to them, ithappened for them and I really
think that you know there's manyof these type of ways that we
(24:01):
can look at what's going on inthe college admission experience
and say, really, if you embraceit and Brennan and I talk this
a lot college admission, Ibelieve, when done right, is in
a lot of ways a guidepost andsort of a bit of a manual for
how you should also approachyour college in general, your
(24:21):
college experience and reallylife beyond college too, if you
can flip that from this happenedto me to this happened for me
to have that perspective andthat confidence that carries you
through what is inevitablygoing to be some disappointments
in college, some reroutes incollege, some doors closed in
college and life as well.
So, really, college admission Ithink you know Brennan talks a
(24:42):
lot about this Like it's notsomething that's just like a
rite of passage or somethingthat you have to do, like
actually a privilege, issomething you get to do that has
bearing way beyond just thislittle small time or period in
your high school career.
It's preparation for life andcertainly for college.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Right, it's just an important way to reframe it.
I mean, I think you know, asespecially as students are
starting out their collegesearch, if they can, if they can
reframe it in that kind of Iget to do this, not I have to do
this, it it.
It changes it from like, ok, Ineed to endure the college
process.
Right, I need to get through, Ineed to, like, survive it.
(25:20):
It's this, this whole mythabout, about, like, how
miserable it has to be and it'sreally a chance.
It's a time of opportunity andit's a time to explore and to
dream and to think big.
And, yes, there's details andthere's.
You know, it can be selectiveif you're looking at a certain
group of schools, but there's somuch opportunity tied up in
(25:40):
this experience and so, yeah,we're all about reframing that.
Well, and I feel like one ofthe things you've done in this
experience, and so, yeah, we'reall about reframing that.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Well, and I feel like one of the things you've done
in this book that maybe is meantto bring not quite levity but a
little bit of like stressrelief, is starting each chapter
with a quote, often from a song.
So it feels like a verydeliberate choice you made.
First of all, I suspected itwas Brennan's idea.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
Actually, it was Rick's idea.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Oh okay, so why do that?
What was the idea behind that?
Because I do feel like a lot ofwhat you talk about is trying
to make this process just seemmore pleasant and less onerous.
Is that part of the idea?
Speaker 5 (26:26):
That's certainly part of the idea.
I mean no question about it,and you know a lot of my.
I mean Brendan writes forForbes and you know a lot of
other outlets.
I most of my writing honestlyhad been a blog, very casual and
lots of life parallels to thecollege admission experience,
whether they like it or not.
I talk a lot about my familyand things that are happening,
(26:48):
because I think that if you drawparallels whether it be a song
quote or just life around us andobservations of life around us,
it shows that you know what.
This is not in isolation andthis is not something you're
actually ill-equipped orunfamiliar with.
This is actually seen inregular life all the time and if
(27:10):
we can draw that in again, Imean, and to be honest with you,
with parents, almost everypanel I'm on or program I go to
some parent, whether it be inpublic or afterwards, will ask
what's my role Like, how am Isupposed to, how do I do this?
Well, and it's, of course,coming from a great place.
You know they really want toknow and and I really truly
(27:31):
believe that parents you knowwho, who love their kids, the
biggest gift that they canreally provide is perspective,
because they're not going tohave all the answers.
The way they went through thecollege admission process back
in the 1900s is very differentthan now and there's all kinds
(27:52):
of things that are changing evenon an annual basis, right, that
college counselors like Brennanare trying to keep up with.
So they're not going to haveall the answers, but what they
can tell is how.
You know.
You know our neighbor, like ourneighbor, didn't go right to
college.
He went into the military andthen he ended up, you know,
coming in after that to get hisdegree.
Or you know Aunt Sally, likeshe was so heartbroken when she
(28:16):
didn't get into her first choice.
She thought the world had ended.
And in the end, you know howmuch she loves her alma mater.
You would never have known that, right.
And I think that that type ofperspective and that type of you
know life beyond collegeadmission, drawing it in so that
the song idea is just to say,hey, yes, some levity, some
enjoyment, some just likecasualness about this, but also,
(28:38):
yeah, just this is notsomething you are unfamiliar
with or ill-equipped to handle.
Yeah, just this is notsomething you are unfamiliar
with or ill-equipped to handle.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
And you know we often share this Mark Twain quote
when we do presentations.
That Rick kind of shared withme.
But it was when I was 17, myfather was so stupid I didn't
want to be seen with him inpublic.
When I was 24, I was amazed athow much the old man had learned
(29:05):
in just seven years.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
That's great.
Well, you know, rick spoke toparents' role in the process and
one of the things that I lovein the book is you encourage
parents to go from the firstperson plural we you know to my
student, the royal we.
Yeah, the royal, we, the royal,we.
(29:28):
And you know you ask yourguests at the start of every
interview to talk about theircollege experience and you know
I reminisced about doing that ona typewriter.
And to Rick's point, thingshave really changed in the
decades since those of us whowent to college went.
But even since then, and Iwould say you know, in the last
(29:50):
two years and your book came out, what kinds of changes do
families need to be thinkingabout?
And Brennan, especially assomebody who's helping students,
you know, think about wherethey want to go.
What kinds of you know?
What is your advice?
Has it changed based on a lotof things that have happened?
You know, think about wherethey want to go.
What kinds of you know.
What is your advice?
Has it changed based on a lotof things that have happened?
Speaker 4 (30:08):
changed on a lot of things that have happened.
This also changed.
I mean, I've seen it.
I have two children in collegeand I've seen it with my own
kids, you know.
And college is just.
I think if we can get beyondthis I mean rick talks about
that like the next four yearsversus the next 40 years but I
think we can get beyond thisidea of the like this linear
(30:29):
journey, right, this like OK,four years you go to one college
, you graduate.
I mean that's ideal for a lotof families and but for a lot of
people in this country that'snot how it works.
Yeah, my son, for example,started as a February freshman
and, you know, didn't startright in the fall and it was the
best thing that ever happenedto him.
He worked on a organic farm forthe fall and made money and had
(30:53):
had a break from school andstarted, started college in such
a different mindset, just readyto learn and excited.
My daughter went to collegewasn't the right fit.
She's transferring, you know,like it's just, it's not.
It's not the zero sum game,it's not this like perfect
(31:13):
pathway and I think collegesmore and more have all kinds of
different options and we seecredentialing kind of becoming a
bigger thing, and we see peoplestarting at community colleges
more and transferring, andGeorgia Tech has some great
pathways programs, for example,and I mean like there's
(31:36):
semesters abroad to startcollege and things like that.
There are just so manydifferent pathways and so I
think if folks can kind of layto rest some of their the ways
they used to think about acollege education and think
about it more as this kind ofjourney, I think that's a lot of
what's changing.
Speaker 5 (31:57):
Yeah, I would echo that.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Do you have any thoughts about how we get that
message out to parents?
How do we help families notthink so much straight line?
Speaker 4 (32:10):
I think it's more and more storytelling.
Yeah, I mean, I think they justneed to hear the stories,
because when they can hear andthat's why we to your point,
elizabeth, that's why we askthat question when we do our
podcast interviews because if Ithink it'd be interesting for us
to go back and just like stringthem all together for an
episode, play them all, becausevery rarely is it.
(32:33):
I went to this one school andyou know it's like I started a
local community college or Istarted this school, I probably
would have been better off atthis school.
Or you know, like the journeysoff at this school, or you know,
like the journeys are just notlinear and and you know, we even
(32:54):
do a, a exercise that a lot ofour talks, where we have
students identify the CEO orpresident of different brands
that they kind of like in theirlife.
Like, okay, look up the, the umpresident of nike or whatever,
whatever you know some brand orsomething in their lives, and
just to see the, the breadth ofinstitutions they attended, and
(33:18):
just to understand, um, what the, the kind of landscape is for
college admission is, I think,really powerful.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
I was using AI the other day to create some images
and I don't know if you guyshave, you know, tinkered around
with this much, but for whateverreason, even if you put quotes
with words right that you wantto, let's say, put this word on
a building or you want to putthis word on a cloud or
something, ai actually does aterrible job, um spelling things
(33:49):
correctly, even if you quote it, and it's because of the way
the algorithm is actuallypulling in um, it seems so
logical that you put in quotesof exactly what you would want
said.
Like coming up with the imageseems harder than coming up with
just like pushing the word ontothe building.
But anyway, I had the wordcollege on this image and it
(34:12):
spelled it literally with threeL's.
And I started thinking, vicki,to your question, like that's
what we should start doing, iswe should start spelling college
with like three or four L's,because of what Brennan is
saying about this idea ofcollege is a big word, it's a
much bigger word than we give itcredit for, and people think,
(34:35):
especially parents, like Ishowed up in August with my bags
packed and four years later Ileft, and that's just not how
it's working now and back toyour question about the funnel.
There's never been a better timethan now to be a good student.
There are so many options outthere that the funnel actually
in many ways has been shrinking.
(34:55):
You know we all go into thewhole demographic cliff thing or
geopolitical, you knowrelationships abroad, but like
there are real threats to thetop of the funnel, not to
mention like the challenges tothe value of college and return
on investment, all of that, ifyou are a good student who's
just like walking into the roomsyou can walk into every day and
taking care of your business,being a good student in the
(35:17):
classroom and having an impacton the community, you're more
bigger.
You know your challenge isactually to be closing doors to
all of the choices and optionsyou have and I think that that's
one of the things that we cancontinue and we do try to stress
.
Every time that we give apresentation, we ask you know,
how many schools do you thinkadmit less than 25 or 30?
(35:38):
And the truth is that's such asmall slice of American higher
education.
Most schools are admitting moststudents and the more we can
collectively work together totell that story that college is
a big word and that you knowgood students have great options
, then I think we're on theright track.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
And as we try to tell the stories and get parents to
understand that, because they'revery concerned about where
their students are going to windup, some families are relying a
lot on consultants hiringadmissions consultants and
college consultants and I thinkwe recognize that as much as
(36:25):
you're trying to keep familiesfocused on what really matters.
There are many that are notquite there yet, and so hiring a
consultant could preserve thefamily dynamic.
But are there things that arethere red flags?
(36:47):
Are there things that parentsmight want to be careful of as
they think about whether or notto hire a consultant or what
consultant to hire?
Speaker 4 (36:56):
yeah, I mean, and I do consultancy work, I think
there is I'm biased, but I thinkthere is, you know, I think
there is.
I mean I'm biased, but I thinkthere's a role for consultants.
I mean, I think there is.
Unfortunately, there are a lotof students in this country
don't have access to counselingand support, and so I think
(37:17):
there's a role and there's arole for pro bono counseling and
there's a role for, you know,consultants to help families.
I would say.
I mean, if you're on socialmedia and you've probably seen a
lot of the consultants thatprey on fear, and I would go
running the other direction.
(37:37):
Or I think, the consultants whohave certain titles that are
all about like top colleges ortop tier or focused on one
subset of colleges, like Ivy orIvy this or Ivy that, or you
know, whatever it might be.
(37:59):
I think maybe that's fine forsome people, but I think it does
the opposite of what Rick and Iwere just talking about.
It narrows it.
There's only this one set ofacceptable colleges and we
somehow have the kind of secretsauce to get you in there, and
(38:23):
it's just not what thisexperience, it's not what
education is about.
So so that would be my piece.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
So I I know we need to finish up.
I want to.
I want to keep talking for along time because I think you
know I want to hear what youhave to say, but I think a lot
of families do too.
But we do have a time limitbecause everybody's busy.
So I'd like to end by askingeach one more question.
I really liked that you sort ofclose your book with closing
(38:57):
letters.
You each write a letter tofamilies, and it felt very
personal and it summed up a lotof what you're saying.
So what I'd like to do is giveyou each a quote from your
letter and ask you why you endedwith that and why that was your
message.
And I may have pulled somethingthat wasn't at all what you
(39:17):
wanted to talk about, but you'regoing to try.
So, rick, let me start with you.
And you just said control whatyou can control.
Why is that your message?
Speaker 5 (39:29):
Yeah Well, first of all, with Johns Hopkins and
publishing this, they farmed itout for an audio book.
I guess this is like a standardcontract.
And so I've heard people say,oh, I listened to your book, you
know, and I I've told every oneof them that we asked to find
if you want to do that.
(39:49):
But, like, can we just read ourletters?
You know, even if you had thesame person do the rest of the
book, like we would love to doour letters because it is
personal, you know, it ispersonal and no-transcript
(40:28):
happens in that room.
They end up gettingdocumentaries made about them
and Netflix they go to jail, youknow.
But you can control your livingroom, right, you can control
your classroom and how you showup in your living room, how you
show up in your classroom.
And back to that point aboutwhen we asked the question,
college admission, what comes tomind?
(40:49):
And people say stress some ofthat because it feels unwieldy
and it feels like things theydon't know or things they can't
control.
But you know what, what Brennanand I like and this is my, this
is my take on it there's 25% atthe very beginning of this that
you fully control.
And that is where do I want toapply?
You know nobody is making youapply to certain colleges and so
(41:12):
you get to choose of all theseamazing places.
Where do I want to apply?
All right, that's fully in yourcontrol.
There's 25% there that is not inyour control.
How much?
You know?
How much money do they give youto come and do you get in?
Sure, that's true.
But if you came up with a goodlist of places, a balanced list
of places, you know that weresome predictable and some less
(41:34):
predictable.
You're going to have optionsand that's where we get right.
We get to this point where youget to choose where you go.
You've gotten into three orfive of the 10 or 11 you applied
to and now you get to pick.
You get to choose based onaffordability and match and all
those things, and that, if youstopped there, that would be 67%
(41:55):
.
That'd be two thirds, which ispretty good.
I think most of us would lovetwo thirds of control of our day
.
But during the pandemic, Ipicked everybody up eight extra
percentage points to go from 67to 75% by teaching a class at
Georgia Tech.
It's a freshman seminar classand I saw kids show up in very
(42:15):
different ways.
Some of them showed up in fallof 2020, just pissed off that.
This is my college experience.
We're wearing masks, we'resocial, distanced.
Only 57% of the campus is herelike this is college.
And then you had these otherstudents showing up, same
classroom and they're like thisis amazing, you know, like I'm
(42:37):
out of the basement and there'sother kids my age here and
they're just like all in fullygoing to embrace and take
advantage of the place.
They ended up right and, whoknows, in that same classroom
there were some that didn't getinto their first choice or
couldn't afford one of theplaces they went, but when they
showed up where they showed up,they were fully engaged and
(42:59):
that's 75% control of thecollege admission experience.
And think about that.
You got to choose where youapplied, you got to pick where
you went and you showed up withthis mentality of going to fully
embrace it.
Like, in my opinion, that iswinning, that is success, more
than a certain bumper sticker,more than anything else, and so
(43:20):
when you reframe it that way,you go from stress to wait.
Okay, that actually soundspretty good.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
It does.
Yes, all right, just Brennan, Iwant to give you one and then
we'll let you go.
Brennan, you said thisexperience is about
relationships, communication andchoice communication breaking
(44:10):
down just in society and infamilies.
Speaker 4 (44:11):
And we see what happens when we don't nurture
relationships and don't havedialogue around things.
And you know, I thinkrelationships within the family,
but just also kind of writlarge, are so important to
overall success.
As we talk about success andkind of just general happiness
(44:34):
and contentness in life, and youknow, you see the loneliness
epidemic and I mean everything,it all comes back to
relationships and how we treateach other and how we engage
with each other and and thatleads to choice.
When you can nurture thoserelationships and when you can
communicate well with otherpeople, then you it comes.
(44:57):
I mean, it goes hand in handwith what Rick's talking about,
with control, right, like, ifyou um, can, um, uh, just build
on those and, um, nurture thosepieces, then you'll have choices
.
You'll have choices and andlife is about choice and college
is about choice.
And when you limit it to oh I,you know, this one school is,
(45:22):
this is the only choice I have,or this one experience is the
only choice I have, it's just itshuts things down.
So it's all about relationships.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
I think that that's a wonderful place to end this
conversation, since we can'tkeep going and we're going to
put some information in the shownotes about your book and about
how people can follow up ifthey need to follow up.
But we're so grateful to youtwo for being here and sharing
what you have and thank you so,so much.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
Thanks for having me.
I enjoyed it, thank you.
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