October 1, 2025 • 49 mins
Ever wondered why some students struggle despite hours of studying while others seem to master information efficiently? Cognitive psychologist Dr. Daniel Willingham, author of the book Outsmart Your Brain: Why Learning is Hard and How You Can Make It Easy joined us to discuss the fascinating science behind this phenomenon, explaining that most college students succeed despite their study strategies, not because of them. Dr. Willingham explained why we're naturally drawn to inefficient learning methods that feel productive but yield disappointing results. He compares these approaches to "doing push-ups on your knees" – they seem easier and faster, but they don't build the mental strength needed for deep learning. Parents will find particular value in Dr. Willingham's three-part framework for supporting student success: set high expectations, express confidence they can be met, and provide support in meeting them. Whether your student is thriving or struggling, these evidence-based approaches can transform their college experience by making learning more efficient and effective.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already in college, this podcast is for you.
You'll find food for thoughtand information about college
and about navigating thatdelicate balance of guidance,
involvement and knowing when toget out of the way.
(00:31):
Join your hosts as they sharesupport and a celebration of the
amazing experience of having achild in college.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Welcome to the College Parents Central Podcast.
We're here again to talk aboutall kinds of things that have to
do with being the parent of acollege student, the parent of
someone who's headed to college,and sometimes those students
who are just stepping out ofcollege.
My name is Vicki Nelson and Iam a faculty member in a
(01:06):
communication department.
I teach those things thateveryone wants to avoid, and I
am also, even more importantly,the parent of three daughters,
who have all gone to college andcome out the other side.
But I have lived this as acollege parent as well as a
faculty member, so this issomething that I deal with every
(01:30):
day and I love talking about,and I am very excited because I
am here today with one of myco-hosts I'm going to let her
introduce herself and we have avery special guest.
So, elizabeth, I'll hand itover to you.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I'm Elizabeth Hamlet and I am the parent of two young
adults who have made their waythrough college.
I am a part-time universitylearning disability specialist,
working directly with studentsregistered with our office and
the author of Seven Steps toCollege Success A Pathway for
Students with Disabilities.
(02:08):
And I am just fangirling herebecause Dr Willingham is my
source for everything learning,and so in my job of working with
students, I talk to them abouttime management and study
strategies, test preparation andreading, and my work comes from
(02:29):
the work that he does, and so Ifound his work a couple of
years ago and became immediatelyentranced by the fact that
research exists that shows uswhat strategies are effective
and which aren't, and I use thatto inform my students and work
with them, and so I was sodelighted when his new book Four
(02:53):
Students came out, and it isOutsmart your Brain, why
Learning is Hard and how you CanMake it Easy.
And this book, yes.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
People are on the podcast we're recording.
Thank you, we are recordingthis, but I'm holding it up.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yeah, you can't even see all the highlighting in here
.
But not only does Dr Willinghamtake all of this research and
make it really accessible andcomprehensible in his book, but,
to my great delight, becausesocial media is a way to reach
young people he is also makingTikToks for his TikTok channel,
(03:33):
and it is such a lot of effort,and so it's so exciting to me
that there are so many differentways to reach students and get
this information to them.
So, with this ramblingintroduction, I'm actually going
to ask Dr Willingham to tell usmore about you know, how he
(03:53):
started in his field of studyand everything else that he's
doing that we don't know about,and also talk about why not only
did he write this book, butthink it was important to take
the great time and effort tomake videos for students.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
Well, thanks so much, elizabeth, and thanks to you
and Vicki for having me today.
So my background is actually asa basic researcher.
I got my PhD in cognitivepsychology and was a researcher
of human memory and the workthat I did was not applied.
(04:31):
It was not.
I mean, there's a bit.
There's the old joke of whenyou get your PhD and like your
parent introduces you, like mychild's a doctor, but not the
type who helps people.
And and I sort of went one stepfurther, I was a memory
researcher who couldn't reallytell you anything helpful about
your memory, like a way to learnbetter.
(04:51):
So because what I did, what Iwas doing, was quite technical,
that changed about 10, 12 yearspost PhD.
So I got my degree in 1990 andhave taught it, and we're
talking about our relationshipto college students, so I've
taught college age studentssince 1990.
(05:14):
And so for the first 12 yearsof my career that was my only
interest in learning really wastrying to teach my courses
competently.
That changed when I was asked,just sort of by happenstance,
because I knew someone in myhometown of Charlottesville,
(05:35):
virginia.
He asked me to address a biggathering of teachers, a teacher
convention with about 500teachers, and I said that
doesn't make you know, I don'tknow anything about classrooms,
that doesn't make any sense.
And he said, well, no, it's not, it's okay, we get that, we
just think it would.
They would find it interestingto hear something about
(05:56):
cognitive psychology.
So I rashly said, sure, I'lltalk to a bunch of teachers.
And then then, like six monthslater, the talk was coming up
and I realized, oh my God, I'mgoing to have to figure out
something to say to these people.
And what terrified me was, likeyou know, in the interim I
realized what in the world am Igoing to tell educators about
(06:18):
how people learn that they don'talready know like that would be
practical.
Don't already know like thatwould be practical.
But I had to.
By that time it was too late toback out.
So I literally just went to theintroduction to cognitive
psychology course that I hadbeen teaching for, you know by
then a decade, and just pickedout some stuff that I thought
was kind of interesting andmaybe applicable to classrooms.
(06:41):
And to give you a sense of howmuch I was fearful and thought
this was going to be a disaster,I had just started dating a
woman who I would very soonthereafter marry, who was a
teacher, and so we had beengoing out for like three months
or something.
I said, hey well, do you wantto come to Nashville with me and
(07:04):
watch me give this talk to abunch of teachers?
And she said, oh sure, thatsounds great.
And as the talk approached andI realized what a calamity it
was going to be, like literally30 minutes before, I said, like
you can't come, don't come to myoffice, it's just going to be.
I don't want you to watch this.
So, to my considerable surprise, it wasn't a disaster.
(07:29):
Teachers didn't already knowall this stuff and thought it
was interesting and applicableto their classrooms.
And that changed my career, andthat was in 2001.
About that was in 2001.
And I started at that point.
I started spending more andmore of my time trying to
(07:49):
translate findings fromcognitive psychology and, to a
lesser extent, neuroscience foreducators.
Now, the particular book thatyou mentioned Outsmart your
Brain, which was published in2023, is not for educators.
It's really for students and aspart of my interest in education
(08:13):
, it occurred to me thatstudents are increasingly asked
to become responsible for theirown education, and I think I
point out in the book like, whenchildren first go to school.
In preschool, our expectationsfor what the child will bring to
(08:34):
the table in terms of helpingout with their own learning is
appropriately nothing Like wedon't think we.
If a preschooler learns ordoesn't learn, it's wholly the
credit or blame of the teacher.
But by the time they graduatefrom high school, we have very
high expectations of whatchildren are supposed to bring
(08:55):
to the table to aid their ownlearning.
We expect that they know how toresist distraction.
We expect that they know how tocommit things to memory.
We think they should know howto commit things to memory.
We think they should know howto plan their own time.
We think they should know whenthey actually know something
right.
They should be able to evaluatetheir own learning and much
(09:17):
more.
But none of this.
I've yet to encounter a schoolor district that really has a
systematic plan to teachchildren how to do these things,
and that's why I thought itwould be helpful to write a book
about it.
So that was kind of a longanswer, sorry but, that's a very
complete answer to yourquestion.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
I got involved and for the teachers in our audience
.
Dr Willingham has writtenseveral books for teachers, and
at the end of every chapter inthe student book there are also
suggestions for teachers.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
So there's lots of ways to learn and we can put all
of those titles in the shownotes so people can follow up.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
Yes, and you'll want at least two copies of each.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
I would say, at least One for the classroom and one
for home.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Yeah, maybe a third to give to friends.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Absolutely.
Holidays are coming up in a fewmonths, that's right.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
That's true, and strategies that you're talking
about, because you talk in thebook about how many different
skills that it takes to reallybe a good student.
And, granted, I went to collegea few years ago.
(10:37):
So I'm curious, it seems to meI don't have any memory of
anyone teaching me study skills,teaching me a lot of the skills
and strategies and things thatyou talk about in your book that
make so much sense.
And I'm just wondering havestudents changed?
(10:59):
Have times changed?
Was I just lucky that I sort offigured it all out?
Speaker 4 (11:07):
Yeah, I mean I think you were probably lucky.
I actually don't know how itwent for you, so I don't know
how lucky you were.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
Well, the way I characterize it I mean, when we
think about college studentslike these are some of the most
successful students in oursystem.
Right, these are students whohave managed to graduate from
high school.
They were successful enoughthat they wanted to continue.
They applied and were admitted.
They're currently enrolled likethings are going OK, right, so
(11:37):
these are pretty successfulstudents.
But we do have data on thestudy strategies these students
use, and the way I characterizeit is that they're doing well in
spite of their study strategies, not because of their study
strategies.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
So most of them.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
It's not that, like you know, what they're doing
like doesn't work at all, likethey are, you know, succeeding
after a fashion, but they'reusing extremely inefficient
strategies extremely inefficientstrategies and they could be
spending less time and just sortof being more efficient with
their time.
And the reason we know this isthat this work of evaluating how
student colleges in particulardeal with the tasks that are set
(12:22):
for them in college thisstarted at UCLA and then at
Williams College, so some of themost selective institutions
researchers just went tostudents and said tell us how
you study, tell us how you planyour your week, tell you know,
just sort of asking students,and so we have pretty good data
(12:42):
on on what students do, yeah,and so we know that they data on
what students do, yeah, and sowe know that they're mostly not
using very efficient strategies.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
I love that in your book you don't just tell them
what to do, you tell them youdescribe what they're probably
doing and why it's not working.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
And that's what's so interesting is, like you said, I
don't remember anyone teachingme a way to do this, and that
continues to be true.
And again, if you ask collegestudents, you say, ok, you've
told us how you study, like whyare to do it that way?
It's much more often I kind offigured out on my own or that's
the way my sibling did it, or Isaw a YouTube video that
suggested it, something likethat and yet they frequently
home in on similar strategiesand so this gets at.
(13:39):
You know, there's somethingthat's guiding them.
It's not that it's the mostefficient strategy that's
guiding them.
Instead, it's a strategy thatfeels like it's working but
isn't very effortful.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
And learning requires some effort, right.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
It does.
I was actually just talkingwith a data scientist and
learning guy about this atdinner last night of whether
learning always has to feeleffortful.
It's not clear to me, honestly,whether it does or doesn't.
Some people like the idea likeit's.
You know, if you're miserable,then that's a really good sign.
I'm not so sure.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
No pain, no gain.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Yeah, people, yeah, no pain, no gain.
And people used to say thatabout Latin in particular.
It's like, well, the best thingabout it is kids really don't
like it and that's reason enoughfor them to learn Latin.
I definitely disagree with that.
I'm unsure, and again, it getsreally inside baseball.
You could say, clearly, thereare times when you're learning
(14:43):
something, you're really engaged, and it doesn't feel.
It doesn't feel effortful andso.
But it could be that it's, likeyou know, by some definitions
of effort, like it's actuallyvery effortful, like you are
really focusing attention atthat moment that's what we mean
by effort and you just don'tmind focusing attention and
that's why it feels like it'sit's not effortful.
(15:04):
Mind focusing attention andthat's why it feels like it's
not effortful.
But, broadly speaking, I thinkthat you know saying students
lean towards things that feellike they're not very hard.
We don't need to get supertechnical about what it means to
feel hard or whether learningalways feels hard or whatever.
I think that's and again, Idon't have like this is an
(15:28):
interpretation of some otherhard data on what students do.
But the idea that they're doingit because it feels easy is an
interpretation.
It's not.
We don't have great data onknowing exactly why they do it.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
It seems.
I just sort of want to followthat thread a little bit because
, as you're talking about easyand hard, it also seems that one
of the themes that runs througha lot of your book is the idea
of active versus passiveapproaches to learning.
And I'm wondering if, becausethis is a well, maybe to ask you
(16:13):
to talk a little bit about thatidea of active versus passive
for learning, but then becausethis is a podcast for parents
and I hope they will say totheir students gee, maybe you
want to listen to this podcast,but are there things that
parents can do to help studentsunderstand that difference and
(16:36):
encourage them to take that moreactive approach?
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Sure, I mean, you know this is a parent's podcast,
so you've, I'm sure, coveredthis frequently Children one
who's already graduated college.
I've got two who are in collegenow and my youngest was
(17:07):
recently talking about she juststarted college and she was
saying like, yeah, you know,it's really, it's really
challenging, like there is a lotof reading, there is a lot of
work.
She said, I don't know, I feellike I need to like look up
somewhere like study skills orsomething.
And then she look up somewherelike study skills or something
(17:28):
and she sort of realized she'slike oh yeah, dad, like you know
, something about random so, um,uh, so, and she said she's
actually you know pretty open touh, to suggestions, but that
that is rough.
So anyway, I start byacknowledging um, you know that
as a parent it's not always easyto get our kids to listen to it
.
But I also always say andthere's actually really good
(17:50):
data on this, not in an academicrealm, but actually in
conversations about substanceabuse In particular that when
you know kids may seem likethey're not really listening to
their parents, but they actuallyare, they're internalizing it,
even if they seem like they're alittle standoffish, you know
(18:10):
about, like Dad, I know youdon't have to tell me Like it
matters that you're sending themthis message.
You know you can definitely.
(18:49):
You know, as parents, you candefinitely talk to your students
, talk to your children aboutspecific metaphor that I use in
the book, which is that if youjust sort of leave students to
their own devices, they end updoing sort of the mental
equivalent of push-ups on theirknees.
And so the metaphor, theanalogy I offer is imagine
you're trying to get intocondition, you want to be able
to do a lot of pushups, and youend up doing pushups on your
(19:12):
knees because you say like, wow,when I do them, this way, I can
really do a lot and I can dothem really fast, and you know,
bonus, it doesn't feel that hard.
But of course, you know thatyou need a challenge in order to
really improve.
And the same thing is true forFor mental exercise.
(19:35):
You have to do something thatfeels in the moment like maybe
it's not working, and that'strue of many study strategies.
In the moment, it feels like,well, this is actually.
Things are going worse, this isI'm not doing very well,
because you're getting confusedabout learning versus
performance.
Learning and performance arenot the same thing.
(19:57):
Performance, learning,performance are not the same
thing.
And you can, without realizingit, you use study materials to
enhance your performance.
So it looks like you'reproducing a lot of answers,
things are going great, but theanswers are not totally coming
from your memory.
Now, the one thing that I'llmention in particular that I
think parents can help with isplanning and scheduling, because
(20:21):
they are pretty much the onlyones, in addition to the
students, who are aware of, ormost of, the claims against
students' times.
Very often in middle school orhigh school, in many districts
and schools that I visit, theyprovide a planner and they give
(20:42):
students some rudimentaryinstruction in how to use a
calendar.
But the challenge is that'sjust the point at which, first
of all, students' time is really, you know, they're getting
really busy and they've got manyclaims against their time, and
also they're, you know,traveling among different
(21:02):
teachers in different classes,and so there's nobody at school
who, just at the time whenstudents really need feedback
about whether or not they'reusing their calendar in the
right way, there's no one atschool who's in a position to
give that feedback, becausenobody has full knowledge.
Parents do, and so that'ssomething I think they can be
(21:23):
especially helpful with.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
And, of course, the best thing parents could do if
your student is in college is totuck your book in their luggage
when the students go or send itin a care package, so it's just
sitting there and then, whenthe student needs it, they're
ready to grab it.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Well, and what's so nice about the way the book is
written is that it's in chunks,so the thing that they need they
can find easily in a chapter,although it would be even better
if they got it for graduationfrom high school and read it
over the summer, and there is anaudio version, so, for those
who would rather listen thanread, there are lots of
different ways to get thisinformation.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
I play the TikTok videos in my class all the time.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Well, and yeah, I made that.
We mentioned the TikTok before.
So the TikTok was actuallyinitially.
This is actually kind of funny.
So my publisher said when Ifirst signed the contract and
they started talking aboutpublicity and like how I could
help out and what their planswere, they said we are going to
put you on TikTok.
And I was like that's an awfulidea.
(22:32):
Like no way, that soundsabsolutely horrible.
And they were like no, it'sgoing to be great.
Like we're going to bring youto New York and we're going to
like it's going to beprofessionally produced and all
that.
So I was like wow, these guysare really all in.
So, like I don't know, twomonths later, like that just
disappeared and they said thatthat idea was off the table.
(22:53):
And I was like did they likesee what I look like?
Or what happened?
Suddenly decided they didn'twant to do this.
But my wife said you know what?
Like you should just do itanyway, cause the great thing,
like just try, because the greatthing about TikTok is like if
(23:14):
it flops, nobody sees, like it'stotally invisible.
Like six people see the video,what do you care?
So if your video is stupid,it's like no risk at all.
So I just, you know, sort ofgot on there and made a quick
video about.
I don't even remember what myfirst one was, but my first
video got like 300,000 views orsomething like that.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
So I was like oh my.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
God, this is easy.
So I just sort of kept makingthem and have I don't know how
many I've made now 75 or 100 orsomething like that, and they
vary in views and so forth.
But yeah, each one is sort oflike one little sort of micro
tip.
Of course, trying to make itvery, very brief, the book, you
(23:52):
know, sort of explains likehere's how your mind works and
here's why this is a good idea,and so forth, and the videos
videos, like you know, intypical tiktok are like do this
and that's uh, that's about it.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Um, it's like yeah, and that's what they want of
course.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
yeah, that's totally what they want.
They're also, like, I think,have zero interest in buying a
book and, and you know, theyjust want to absorb it from
TikTok.
My youngest, you know, said,you know I've had more than one
video that's gotten a millionviews.
And my daughter said, like Dad,you've probably sold like 10
books from TikTok.
(24:28):
And I was like I'm aware, I'maware, but that's okay.
I mean like it's stilldisseminating in a different way
.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
So we were talking a little bit about what parents
can do and obviously, loving,caring parents, who are all our
audience, you know, I thinkduring COVID became more aware
of their students you knowlearning and their study habits,
and in my community ofdisability services
(24:57):
professionals, as I'm sure inlots of other educational areas,
we're sort of starting to seethe effects of the COVID
teaching environment andexpectations at the but have you
seen any effect on students'ability to be independent
learners that you've evenobserved in your own classes,
(25:18):
pre and post-COVID?
On this, at the college levelthere are surveys of elementary
and secondary teachers, you knowsort of confirming.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
They feel like they're definitely seeing a
difference post-COVID in termsof students' stamina, in terms
of students' self-confidence,their willingness to take on
assignments.
And even though there aren'tlike big surveys like that,
there are a zillion anecdotes.
I mean I haven't, I haven'tI've yet to meet a college
(26:05):
professor who's like oh yeah,like we're back from COVID like
just the way they were before,like there's nobody who is
saying that.
And I definitely see it in myown teaching.
I mentioned my introduction tocognitive psychology class and
that's the one I've been.
I started teaching that as agraduate student, so I've been
teaching that since the 80s.
(26:26):
And that course, you know,doesn't the content changes, of
course, as the science changes,but my expectations really
haven't.
You know, it's an introductorycourse and so there's lots of
vocabulary you have to get underyour belt and some, you know,
there's basic concepts that areunfamiliar to people.
It's not an easy course.
I mean it's like taking, youknow, bio 101 or chem 101 or
(26:49):
whatever.
And this, post-covid, is thefirst time I've had students say
like this is, you know, yourexpectations are unreasonable in
this course, like no one couldlearn this much, you know.
And I try not to be thefuddy-duddy and say, you know,
like well, you know back in myday, everybody.
(27:11):
You know, it's not just back inmy day, it's like you know back
in 2019 and every year up untilthen people did, and they didn't
love it because they thoughtthe course was hard, but they
recognized that.
You know this is sort of whatcollege is.
So, yes, I think I definitelysee a substantial difference in
(27:32):
student expectations post-COVID.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
And even before that.
I was just curious.
You know, since you've beendoing this for some time, you
know back the old, you know backin my day, but do you see
differences in students studyand learning habits since you
initially became a professor?
I mean, is it noticeable anychanges?
Speaker 4 (27:52):
I don't think.
No, I don't think.
So yeah, I don't think forbetter or worse.
It's really all post-COVID thatthings have changed.
Yeah, and you know I mean theNAEP scores just came out for
12th grade reading this morning.
(28:13):
They're really bad.
I mean, this is, you know, thisis a consequence of, and so you
know, students who are incollege right now are sort of
living with the aftermath ofCOVID from when they were in
high school.
And yeah it's, they don't havethe skills.
(28:36):
And so, getting back to sort ofwhat, what parents can do and
what educators can do about thisCOVID problem, I mean I
recommend a two part strategy.
One is, like you know,expectations need to be what
expectations are?
What is appropriate work for acollege freshman to be doing?
(28:57):
Like if you're taking, you know, chem 101 or English 101 or
whatever it is like we can'tjust say like, well, you know,
from here on, you know, we justexpect them to learn less.
That doesn't make any sense.
But at the same time as we youknow, that is going to be new to
(29:17):
students, right?
Those expectations are going toseem much higher to students,
and so we need to also expect tooffer more support, because
they haven't been doing workknowledge that students that we
were used to five years ago orwhatever, and so we have to
(29:42):
account for that about how we'regoing to bring them up to speed
, and also they don't have theskill set, so we need to provide
that instruction and support,not just setting high
expectations, but also givingstudents the tools they need so
that they can meet thoseexpectations.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
So I want to sort of follow that up with a question.
I teach mostly freshmen, somesophomores, but I mostly have
them deer in the headlights asthey come in.
And they're hit with thoseexpectations and all of that.
And it seems to me there areoften.
I mean, there are lots ofstudents in the middle, but
(30:29):
there are some students whomanage they could do a lot
better, but they're stayingafloat and then there are those
students who, when they're facedwith all this, they just they
crash and burn.
It's a disaster.
And I'm wondering if you haveany thoughts about whether it's
(30:52):
sometimes I think those studentswho crash and burn actually
have an advantage, becausethey've figured out that
everything they're doing doesn'twork, where those students who
are managing think they're doingokay.
And I'm wondering whether,whether there are any thoughts
about which is who is it easierfor or harder to make these
(31:14):
shifts?
Speaker 4 (31:16):
that's a really interesting observation and it
it strikes me.
I mean, the first thing I thinkof is like well, this is
something that could be anempirical question and there
probably there are datasomewhere, like what are the
outcomes for the students whohave a disastrous semester, how
many of them sort of get theiract together and figure out?
Speaker 3 (31:37):
okay, like what.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
I was doing was just not working and then end up, you
know, really sort of rocketingahead and how many you know
don't do that and give up and orwhatever, and I don't know the
answer to that.
It is the kind of thing I mean.
As you know, first gen statusis a predictor of trouble in
(32:06):
college.
A lot of these students reallystruggle in college and there's
more than one interpretationabout why that is.
But sort of having setbacks andthen not having either the
self-confidence that I reallybelong here.
There's no doubt that I'm acollege student and that I will
(32:29):
succeed.
Obviously, that sort ofattribution is very important
for what you do when you have asetback and everybody has
setbacks when they uh, whenthey're in college.
And then the other thing is,you know, having knowledge, it's
it's all very nice to say likeI need to do something different
.
Do you know what it is you'resupposed to do?
Speaker 3 (32:50):
and if you don't?
Speaker 4 (32:50):
know what to do.
Do you know where to look to,uh, to get that information?
Speaker 1 (32:56):
um, so yeah, that's what strikes me as relevant.
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
I'm just so excited so I just, vicki, just did a an
episode recently on resources oncampus.
So, especially for these firstgen students, you know, for
parents who are listening andeverybody's parents, it's really
important to let your studentsknow that there are all sorts of
help resources on campus andthat they exist, because we do
(33:26):
expect students to struggle, weit's.
You know there's a commonexpression that college is not
grade 13, or at least it'scommon among people I know
working at the college level,and so you know the expectations
are increased, as Dr Willinghamsaid, and you know they're also
, in so many cases, managingtheir own lives.
(33:47):
You know the time management,the personal hygiene, the, you
know the sleep hygiene stuff,and so a lot of schools have
writing centers, they havetutoring centers, they may have
academic coaching to helpstudents start to learn to
manage their time.
Counseling centers are reallyimportant for mental health, and
(34:08):
so make sure your students areaware of this stuff Because, to
Dr Willingham's point about, youknow, self doubt and do I
belong here?
Imposter syndrome, they shouldbe aware that a lot of students
feel this way and that thesupports are there for them.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
So that's such an important point and it because
it is so much easier if you'regoing to ask for help at all.
It's so much easier to ask yourroommate or the person down the
hall and so on, and that's OK,that's better than I ask anyone.
But I mean, like they're notprofessionals.
You, you know, and it's likeyou're talking about I mean the
people, like this is their life,this is what they do
(34:48):
professionally and they reallyknow what they're talking about
and they're very thoughtfulabout it and you're much more
likely to get helpful advicefrom these professionals than
you are from the verywell-meaning roommate.
But they're kind of like youknow, there may be like three
months ahead of you in all this.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
They may not be doing well either.
They may not be.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
They may be putting up a really good show, but
things are not great for them.
The other thing that occurs tome and I wish I had mentioned
this before, when I was talkingabout higher expectations for
that that educators are placingand that they also need to make
sure that they're givingstudents tools the other thing
they need to do is expressconfidence to students that
students can meet thoseexpectations.
(35:32):
And you know, I sometimes say,if you're going to boil down all
of the education literature and, by the way, the parenting
literature as well into asentence, it would be something
like set high expectations,express confidence they can be
met and promise support inmeeting them.
Right, you need all three ofthose elements and that's yeah,
(35:58):
definitely applies here.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Vicki, if it's okay, I want to jump in with one of my
questions here, because it sortof seems to dovetail a little
bit on this.
Again, I come to thisconversation as a perspective of
somebody who works in a collegedisability services office and
as part of my job I reviewstudents' requests for
accommodations and I'm seeingstudents coming out of high
(36:27):
school who have beenaccommodated with, for instance,
copies of the teacher's notesor study guides prepared by a
teacher.
You know being allowed to havea formula sheet or a set of
notes and you know well-meaning,loving parents and again I'm
assuming it's parents' requestand I should not do that but
well-meaning adults sometimesprovide these accommodations for
(36:47):
students in high school becausethings are challenging for
students based on theirdisability.
But I am a great believer, asyou just talked about this
concept of self-efficacy right,believing that you can do things
and having the adults aroundyou is part of self-efficacy, I
guess you know, and that yousucceed by doing things, and
(37:08):
maybe not perfectly, but if youdo them you'll believe in your
ability to do them.
So this is an awkward way toget around to.
You know, are theseaccommodations in your view,
counterproductive?
Not just because, from myperspective, they're probably
not going to get some of thoseaccommodations.
You know getting a formulasheet or notes.
I have no data, but from theconversations in my community of
(37:31):
professionals, it's not doesn'tappear to be commonly approved
Instead of copies of theprofessor's notes and I mean,
would anybody understand yourown notes, dr William, lecture
notes if they were to get a copyof them?
You know, in these ways they'renot asking students to learn
(37:52):
how to do things and be moreindependent.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
So yeah, so there are a few components of what you
said.
So first, I agree in terms ofaccommodations that are commonly
offered on college campuses.
I, of course, only know aboutmy personal experience, but my
experience certainly isconsistent with what you
described.
(38:15):
I've never heard of a studentgetting an accommodation where
they get access to theprofessor's notes when the rest
of the class does not.
It's usually much more in thevein of there's an obstacle to
(38:43):
your accessing the content orparticipating in the class.
That isn't really that relevantto the learning experience but
nevertheless presents anobstacle.
So, you know, most obvious caseis, you know, the student has
difficulty with the motor aspectof writing or something, and so
they do get access to classnotes.
They probably wouldn't be mynotes, they would be a peer's
notes or something like that.
The that, that, that instancethat actually that I happen to
(39:07):
pick, is one that it's not ideal, because the process of taking
notes actually does improve yourretention of your memory of the
content.
But if it's, you know, ifyou've really got dysgraphia,
then it's not doing that for you, it's not helping.
But yeah, any, you knowsomething that you know.
(39:31):
I mentioned before thedifference between performance
and learning, and so it's amistake to think that learning
and this is a very commonmisconception among students and
probably among parents toolearning means sitting down and
committing things to memory.
(39:52):
Studying means trying to cramthings into my memory.
There are many activities thatyou do that contribute to your
learning.
That may not look like learningto you.
So and you know I frequentlyrecommend this as when start
(40:14):
this way, when students come tome and say, professor William,
I'm very frustrated because Ifelt like I'm doing, you know,
really really preparing, andthen I'm not doing very well on
assessments and I don't knowwhat's going on.
When I talk with them aboutstudying again by studying, the
only thing they think thatmatters is trying to cram things
(40:36):
into my memory.
So something like going onQuizlet to get a slide deck that
someone else has prepared, theyview as a great idea because
that saves time.
Making my own deck is like aprelude to learning.
It's a precursor to learning.
But I'm not going to learnanything by making my own deck,
(40:58):
and so I have to point out tothem that's not right.
Like actually evaluating what'simportant enough to go into a
deck.
What kinds of questions shouldI pose?
What are the connections amongall of this content?
All of that is really reallygood for your memory.
So this is a slightlyroundabout way of getting at
your question.
(41:19):
It's one way of evaluatingaccommodations.
Is this something?
Are you essentially takingsomething away from the students
.
That is really a learningopportunity.
It's not just like they havedifficulty doing this.
They may have difficulty doingit, it doesn't mean it's
(41:39):
actually not a pretty helpfulthing for them to do.
So you know, I can give you mynotes.
But unless taking your ownnotes in class is so distracting
and, you know, just rattles youso much that it's really really
taking away from yourexperience, that'd be one thing.
If your notes end up looking alittle messy, a little you know,
(42:02):
and they're, you know they'renot great, your notes like,
maybe we can find another wayfor those notes to end up being
more productive.
But we shouldn't automaticallythink, oh, you can't do that.
Accommodation is I'm going togive you your, give you my notes
, because then in trying to helpyou I'm actually maybe taking
something away from you.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
And for those wondering about note-taking
accommodations, I have aSubstack post that we'll put in
the show notes about note-takingand how colleges often view
that.
And so even you know there areno current.
The only data we have is froman old study and 16.8% of
(42:44):
students in this nationallyrepresentative sample got copies
of notes from a note taker.
But that's also beforetechnology exploded and all of
these apps you know came along.
So my guess would be that fewerstudents are getting human note
takers, except, as DrWillingham said, in cases of
(43:05):
students with actual physicallimitations on their ability to
take notes.
But also, you know, we need tobe aware of the purpose of those
notes, which is basically tosupplement students' own notes.
Colleges typically expectstudents to take their own notes
, not because we're just mean,terrible people, but you know
that's part of the learningprocess.
Speaker 4 (43:24):
Right.
And now, this is.
This question is especiallyrelevant also for students
without accommodations, becauseit's so, it's so readily
available to have an app takenotes for you.
You just have your phone,listen to the professor's
lecture and notes pop out.
And so, yes, students,absolutely, you know, students'
(43:45):
interpretation is sweet.
I don't really have to listenbecause the notes are being
taken.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
for me, that goes to that active-passive sort of
thing.
Speaker 4 (43:56):
Yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
I see that in the classroom too.
Speaker 4 (44:13):
We were so excited about having this conversation.
Yes, yes, have a marvelous time.
Okay, well, let's keep going.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
We'd love to, but we do need to sort of wrap things
up, I think, especially forparents.
I really love and I don't wantto put words in your mouth, but
for me there's a summary in whatyou said just a few minutes ago
about those three things tocommunicate to students, because
(44:42):
I think that is something thatparents can actually do, and
that is that idea of highexpectations and the confidence
that you really can do thisthing, and then I'm going to
provide the support for you orhelp you find the support you
need.
And so for any parents who'vemade it this far in listening
(45:03):
and are saying, yes, that'sgreat, but that's all
information for students, Ithink there's really a message
there that they have animportant job.
Speaker 4 (45:14):
I'm so glad you brought that up, Vicki, and it's
maybe worth explicating just alittle bit the high expectations
is maybe obvious, maybe not.
I mean, you express highexpectations because if you have
low expectations, that sort ofindicates like this is what I
think you're capable of, right,but at the same time simply
(45:36):
saying like I expect A's fromyou, that's, you know, sort of
scary right.
It's like, okay, like you're a,you know you're a tough guy.
but like I don't think I can getA's like that.
That sounds terrible to me.
So it's very important that youalso express like I know you
can do it and I have confidencein your abilities.
(45:59):
I think this is wonderful forchildren to hear from their
parents.
It's wonderful also for them toyou know some.
Depending on your relationshipwith your parents, you may also
think like you're really naive.
You know you think I can getA's.
I know good and well I can't,and that's part of the reason
why that third component is soimportant.
It's like gee, dad, it's greatthat you want me to get A's,
(46:23):
it's great you think I can do it.
I really am not so sure I cando it and so saying like I am
going to be there to be surethat you have the tools to
figure this out, I'm going to bewith you, we're going to figure
it out together.
If you struggle, that's youknow.
That's much more reassuring tostudents.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
Yeah, that's helpful.
I almost wonder whether parentsand students can work together
on the expectations as well.
You know, let's together createwhat we expect.
This has been wonderful.
Speaker 4 (46:58):
Really that's such a nice point.
Yeah, you mean just sort ofsitting down having a
conversation about here's howit's gone.
You know, I think you could dobetter.
Like what do you think?
Yeah, and I mean, from talkingwith educators and parents, a
(47:18):
lot of times your kids surpriseyou, like you know, your kids
are in a way harder onthemselves than you would be on
them, and they say, like this iswhat my goal would be, and
you're like, yikes, okay, thatsounds great, let's see if we
can do it.
But yeah, I mean, it'sinspiring too, yeah, and it also
(47:39):
helps you, like you know, helpthem think through a plan B.
It's like okay if you don't makethe Dean's list, like what
would that mean, like what wouldstill be a good outcome, and so
on.
So you can kind of, you know,talk them down if they're, if
they are setting unrealisticallyhigh expectations and, of
course, unrealistically low aswell.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
So I was going to say , vicky, and I think in that
episode that I was justreferring to, you guys also talk
about, you know, making surethat they know, if things aren't
going the way they expect, withthese high expectations, to go
reach out for that support, thatit isn't something about them
if they don't, you know, if theyget to college and they're
starting to struggle, but thatyou know the answer shouldn't
(48:21):
just be well, I wasn't cut outfor this.
My goal's right.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
So much to think about.
Tell us and tell parents, tellour listeners how they can find
you, how they can find you onTikTok, how they can reach out
if they need to reach out ifthey need to.
Speaker 4 (48:48):
Danielwillinghamcom has everything to which I own
the copyright and thereforecould post.
An article can be found atDanielWillinghamcom and there's
lots of different topics there.
It's also got links to my books.
It's got a link to my TikTokaccount and my X account, so
yeah, Okay, and we will put allof that in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
And, once again, the book we are talking about today
is Outsmart your Brain, whyLearning is Hard and how you Can
Make it Easy.
So parents are going to want toget that for their students.
Dr Willingham, thank you somuch for taking time to talk to
us today and share so much withall of our parents.
(49:30):
Absolutely and thanks toeveryone for listening and we'll
see you next time.
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already in college, this podcast is for you.
You'll find food for thoughtand information about college
and about navigating thatdelicate balance of guidance,
involvement and knowing when toget out of the way.
(00:31):
Join your hosts as they sharesupport and a celebration of the
amazing experience of having achild in college.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Welcome to the College Parents Central Podcast.
We're here again to talk aboutall kinds of things that have to
do with being the parent of acollege student, the parent of
someone who's headed to college,and sometimes those students
who are just stepping out ofcollege.
My name is Vicki Nelson and Iam a faculty member in a
(01:06):
communication department.
I teach those things thateveryone wants to avoid, and I
am also, even more importantly,the parent of three daughters,
who have all gone to college andcome out the other side.
But I have lived this as acollege parent as well as a
faculty member, so this issomething that I deal with every
(01:30):
day and I love talking about,and I am very excited because I
am here today with one of myco-hosts I'm going to let her
introduce herself and we have avery special guest.
So, elizabeth, I'll hand itover to you.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I'm Elizabeth Hamlet and I am the parent of two young
adults who have made their waythrough college.
I am a part-time universitylearning disability specialist,
working directly with studentsregistered with our office and
the author of Seven Steps toCollege Success A Pathway for
Students with Disabilities.
(02:08):
And I am just fangirling herebecause Dr Willingham is my
source for everything learning,and so in my job of working with
students, I talk to them abouttime management and study
strategies, test preparation andreading, and my work comes from
(02:29):
the work that he does, and so Ifound his work a couple of
years ago and became immediatelyentranced by the fact that
research exists that shows uswhat strategies are effective
and which aren't, and I use thatto inform my students and work
with them, and so I was sodelighted when his new book Four
(02:53):
Students came out, and it isOutsmart your Brain, why
Learning is Hard and how you CanMake it Easy.
And this book, yes.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
People are on the podcast we're recording.
Thank you, we are recordingthis, but I'm holding it up.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yeah, you can't even see all the highlighting in here
.
But not only does Dr Willinghamtake all of this research and
make it really accessible andcomprehensible in his book, but,
to my great delight, becausesocial media is a way to reach
young people he is also makingTikToks for his TikTok channel,
(03:33):
and it is such a lot of effort,and so it's so exciting to me
that there are so many differentways to reach students and get
this information to them.
So, with this ramblingintroduction, I'm actually going
to ask Dr Willingham to tell usmore about you know, how he
(03:53):
started in his field of studyand everything else that he's
doing that we don't know about,and also talk about why not only
did he write this book, butthink it was important to take
the great time and effort tomake videos for students.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
Well, thanks so much, elizabeth, and thanks to you
and Vicki for having me today.
So my background is actually asa basic researcher.
I got my PhD in cognitivepsychology and was a researcher
of human memory and the workthat I did was not applied.
(04:31):
It was not.
I mean, there's a bit.
There's the old joke of whenyou get your PhD and like your
parent introduces you, like mychild's a doctor, but not the
type who helps people.
And and I sort of went one stepfurther, I was a memory
researcher who couldn't reallytell you anything helpful about
your memory, like a way to learnbetter.
(04:51):
So because what I did, what Iwas doing, was quite technical,
that changed about 10, 12 yearspost PhD.
So I got my degree in 1990 andhave taught it, and we're
talking about our relationshipto college students, so I've
taught college age studentssince 1990.
(05:14):
And so for the first 12 yearsof my career that was my only
interest in learning really wastrying to teach my courses
competently.
That changed when I was asked,just sort of by happenstance,
because I knew someone in myhometown of Charlottesville,
(05:35):
virginia.
He asked me to address a biggathering of teachers, a teacher
convention with about 500teachers, and I said that
doesn't make you know, I don'tknow anything about classrooms,
that doesn't make any sense.
And he said, well, no, it's not, it's okay, we get that, we
just think it would.
They would find it interestingto hear something about
(05:56):
cognitive psychology.
So I rashly said, sure, I'lltalk to a bunch of teachers.
And then then, like six monthslater, the talk was coming up
and I realized, oh my God, I'mgoing to have to figure out
something to say to these people.
And what terrified me was, likeyou know, in the interim I
realized what in the world am Igoing to tell educators about
(06:18):
how people learn that they don'talready know like that would be
practical.
Don't already know like thatwould be practical.
But I had to.
By that time it was too late toback out.
So I literally just went to theintroduction to cognitive
psychology course that I hadbeen teaching for, you know by
then a decade, and just pickedout some stuff that I thought
was kind of interesting andmaybe applicable to classrooms.
(06:41):
And to give you a sense of howmuch I was fearful and thought
this was going to be a disaster,I had just started dating a
woman who I would very soonthereafter marry, who was a
teacher, and so we had beengoing out for like three months
or something.
I said, hey well, do you wantto come to Nashville with me and
(07:04):
watch me give this talk to abunch of teachers?
And she said, oh sure, thatsounds great.
And as the talk approached andI realized what a calamity it
was going to be, like literally30 minutes before, I said, like
you can't come, don't come to myoffice, it's just going to be.
I don't want you to watch this.
So, to my considerable surprise, it wasn't a disaster.
(07:29):
Teachers didn't already knowall this stuff and thought it
was interesting and applicableto their classrooms.
And that changed my career, andthat was in 2001.
About that was in 2001.
And I started at that point.
I started spending more andmore of my time trying to
(07:49):
translate findings fromcognitive psychology and, to a
lesser extent, neuroscience foreducators.
Now, the particular book thatyou mentioned Outsmart your
Brain, which was published in2023, is not for educators.
It's really for students and aspart of my interest in education
(08:13):
, it occurred to me thatstudents are increasingly asked
to become responsible for theirown education, and I think I
point out in the book like, whenchildren first go to school.
In preschool, our expectationsfor what the child will bring to
(08:34):
the table in terms of helpingout with their own learning is
appropriately nothing Like wedon't think we.
If a preschooler learns ordoesn't learn, it's wholly the
credit or blame of the teacher.
But by the time they graduatefrom high school, we have very
high expectations of whatchildren are supposed to bring
(08:55):
to the table to aid their ownlearning.
We expect that they know how toresist distraction.
We expect that they know how tocommit things to memory.
We think they should know howto commit things to memory.
We think they should know howto plan their own time.
We think they should know whenthey actually know something
right.
They should be able to evaluatetheir own learning and much
(09:17):
more.
But none of this.
I've yet to encounter a schoolor district that really has a
systematic plan to teachchildren how to do these things,
and that's why I thought itwould be helpful to write a book
about it.
So that was kind of a longanswer, sorry but, that's a very
complete answer to yourquestion.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
I got involved and for the teachers in our audience
.
Dr Willingham has writtenseveral books for teachers, and
at the end of every chapter inthe student book there are also
suggestions for teachers.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
So there's lots of ways to learn and we can put all
of those titles in the shownotes so people can follow up.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
Yes, and you'll want at least two copies of each.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
I would say, at least One for the classroom and one
for home.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Yeah, maybe a third to give to friends.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Absolutely.
Holidays are coming up in a fewmonths, that's right.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
That's true, and strategies that you're talking
about, because you talk in thebook about how many different
skills that it takes to reallybe a good student.
And, granted, I went to collegea few years ago.
(10:37):
So I'm curious, it seems to meI don't have any memory of
anyone teaching me study skills,teaching me a lot of the skills
and strategies and things thatyou talk about in your book that
make so much sense.
And I'm just wondering havestudents changed?
(10:59):
Have times changed?
Was I just lucky that I sort offigured it all out?
Speaker 4 (11:07):
Yeah, I mean I think you were probably lucky.
I actually don't know how itwent for you, so I don't know
how lucky you were.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
Well, the way I characterize it I mean, when we
think about college studentslike these are some of the most
successful students in oursystem.
Right, these are students whohave managed to graduate from
high school.
They were successful enoughthat they wanted to continue.
They applied and were admitted.
They're currently enrolled likethings are going OK, right, so
(11:37):
these are pretty successfulstudents.
But we do have data on thestudy strategies these students
use, and the way I characterizeit is that they're doing well in
spite of their study strategies, not because of their study
strategies.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
So most of them.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
It's not that, like you know, what they're doing
like doesn't work at all, likethey are, you know, succeeding
after a fashion, but they'reusing extremely inefficient
strategies extremely inefficientstrategies and they could be
spending less time and just sortof being more efficient with
their time.
And the reason we know this isthat this work of evaluating how
student colleges in particulardeal with the tasks that are set
(12:22):
for them in college thisstarted at UCLA and then at
Williams College, so some of themost selective institutions
researchers just went tostudents and said tell us how
you study, tell us how you planyour your week, tell you know,
just sort of asking students,and so we have pretty good data
(12:42):
on on what students do, yeah,and so we know that they data on
what students do, yeah, and sowe know that they're mostly not
using very efficient strategies.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
I love that in your book you don't just tell them
what to do, you tell them youdescribe what they're probably
doing and why it's not working.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
And that's what's so interesting is, like you said, I
don't remember anyone teachingme a way to do this, and that
continues to be true.
And again, if you ask collegestudents, you say, ok, you've
told us how you study, like whyare to do it that way?
It's much more often I kind offigured out on my own or that's
the way my sibling did it, or Isaw a YouTube video that
suggested it, something likethat and yet they frequently
home in on similar strategiesand so this gets at.
(13:39):
You know, there's somethingthat's guiding them.
It's not that it's the mostefficient strategy that's
guiding them.
Instead, it's a strategy thatfeels like it's working but
isn't very effortful.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
And learning requires some effort, right.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
It does.
I was actually just talkingwith a data scientist and
learning guy about this atdinner last night of whether
learning always has to feeleffortful.
It's not clear to me, honestly,whether it does or doesn't.
Some people like the idea likeit's.
You know, if you're miserable,then that's a really good sign.
I'm not so sure.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
No pain, no gain.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Yeah, people, yeah, no pain, no gain.
And people used to say thatabout Latin in particular.
It's like, well, the best thingabout it is kids really don't
like it and that's reason enoughfor them to learn Latin.
I definitely disagree with that.
I'm unsure, and again, it getsreally inside baseball.
You could say, clearly, thereare times when you're learning
(14:43):
something, you're really engaged, and it doesn't feel.
It doesn't feel effortful andso.
But it could be that it's, likeyou know, by some definitions
of effort, like it's actuallyvery effortful, like you are
really focusing attention atthat moment that's what we mean
by effort and you just don'tmind focusing attention and
that's why it feels like it'sit's not effortful.
(15:04):
Mind focusing attention andthat's why it feels like it's
not effortful.
But, broadly speaking, I thinkthat you know saying students
lean towards things that feellike they're not very hard.
We don't need to get supertechnical about what it means to
feel hard or whether learningalways feels hard or whatever.
I think that's and again, Idon't have like this is an
(15:28):
interpretation of some otherhard data on what students do.
But the idea that they're doingit because it feels easy is an
interpretation.
It's not.
We don't have great data onknowing exactly why they do it.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
It seems.
I just sort of want to followthat thread a little bit because
, as you're talking about easyand hard, it also seems that one
of the themes that runs througha lot of your book is the idea
of active versus passiveapproaches to learning.
And I'm wondering if, becausethis is a well, maybe to ask you
(16:13):
to talk a little bit about thatidea of active versus passive
for learning, but then becausethis is a podcast for parents
and I hope they will say totheir students gee, maybe you
want to listen to this podcast,but are there things that
parents can do to help studentsunderstand that difference and
(16:36):
encourage them to take that moreactive approach?
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Sure, I mean, you know this is a parent's podcast,
so you've, I'm sure, coveredthis frequently Children one
who's already graduated college.
I've got two who are in collegenow and my youngest was
(17:07):
recently talking about she juststarted college and she was
saying like, yeah, you know,it's really, it's really
challenging, like there is a lotof reading, there is a lot of
work.
She said, I don't know, I feellike I need to like look up
somewhere like study skills orsomething.
And then she look up somewherelike study skills or something
(17:28):
and she sort of realized she'slike oh yeah, dad, like you know
, something about random so, um,uh, so, and she said she's
actually you know pretty open touh, to suggestions, but that
that is rough.
So anyway, I start byacknowledging um, you know that
as a parent it's not always easyto get our kids to listen to it
.
But I also always say andthere's actually really good
(17:50):
data on this, not in an academicrealm, but actually in
conversations about substanceabuse In particular that when
you know kids may seem likethey're not really listening to
their parents, but they actuallyare, they're internalizing it,
even if they seem like they're alittle standoffish, you know
(18:10):
about, like Dad, I know youdon't have to tell me Like it
matters that you're sending themthis message.
You know you can definitely.
(18:49):
You know, as parents, you candefinitely talk to your students
, talk to your children aboutspecific metaphor that I use in
the book, which is that if youjust sort of leave students to
their own devices, they end updoing sort of the mental
equivalent of push-ups on theirknees.
And so the metaphor, theanalogy I offer is imagine
you're trying to get intocondition, you want to be able
to do a lot of pushups, and youend up doing pushups on your
(19:12):
knees because you say like, wow,when I do them, this way, I can
really do a lot and I can dothem really fast, and you know,
bonus, it doesn't feel that hard.
But of course, you know thatyou need a challenge in order to
really improve.
And the same thing is true forFor mental exercise.
(19:35):
You have to do something thatfeels in the moment like maybe
it's not working, and that'strue of many study strategies.
In the moment, it feels like,well, this is actually.
Things are going worse, this isI'm not doing very well,
because you're getting confusedabout learning versus
performance.
Learning and performance arenot the same thing.
(19:57):
Performance, learning,performance are not the same
thing.
And you can, without realizingit, you use study materials to
enhance your performance.
So it looks like you'reproducing a lot of answers,
things are going great, but theanswers are not totally coming
from your memory.
Now, the one thing that I'llmention in particular that I
think parents can help with isplanning and scheduling, because
(20:21):
they are pretty much the onlyones, in addition to the
students, who are aware of, ormost of, the claims against
students' times.
Very often in middle school orhigh school, in many districts
and schools that I visit, theyprovide a planner and they give
(20:42):
students some rudimentaryinstruction in how to use a
calendar.
But the challenge is that'sjust the point at which, first
of all, students' time is really, you know, they're getting
really busy and they've got manyclaims against their time, and
also they're, you know,traveling among different
(21:02):
teachers in different classes,and so there's nobody at school
who, just at the time whenstudents really need feedback
about whether or not they'reusing their calendar in the
right way, there's no one atschool who's in a position to
give that feedback, becausenobody has full knowledge.
Parents do, and so that'ssomething I think they can be
(21:23):
especially helpful with.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
And, of course, the best thing parents could do if
your student is in college is totuck your book in their luggage
when the students go or send itin a care package, so it's just
sitting there and then, whenthe student needs it, they're
ready to grab it.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Well, and what's so nice about the way the book is
written is that it's in chunks,so the thing that they need they
can find easily in a chapter,although it would be even better
if they got it for graduationfrom high school and read it
over the summer, and there is anaudio version, so, for those
who would rather listen thanread, there are lots of
different ways to get thisinformation.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
I play the TikTok videos in my class all the time.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Well, and yeah, I made that.
We mentioned the TikTok before.
So the TikTok was actuallyinitially.
This is actually kind of funny.
So my publisher said when Ifirst signed the contract and
they started talking aboutpublicity and like how I could
help out and what their planswere, they said we are going to
put you on TikTok.
And I was like that's an awfulidea.
(22:32):
Like no way, that soundsabsolutely horrible.
And they were like no, it'sgoing to be great.
Like we're going to bring youto New York and we're going to
like it's going to beprofessionally produced and all
that.
So I was like wow, these guysare really all in.
So, like I don't know, twomonths later, like that just
disappeared and they said thatthat idea was off the table.
(22:53):
And I was like did they likesee what I look like?
Or what happened?
Suddenly decided they didn'twant to do this.
But my wife said you know what?
Like you should just do itanyway, cause the great thing,
like just try, because the greatthing about TikTok is like if
(23:14):
it flops, nobody sees, like it'stotally invisible.
Like six people see the video,what do you care?
So if your video is stupid,it's like no risk at all.
So I just, you know, sort ofgot on there and made a quick
video about.
I don't even remember what myfirst one was, but my first
video got like 300,000 views orsomething like that.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
So I was like oh my.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
God, this is easy.
So I just sort of kept makingthem and have I don't know how
many I've made now 75 or 100 orsomething like that, and they
vary in views and so forth.
But yeah, each one is sort oflike one little sort of micro
tip.
Of course, trying to make itvery, very brief, the book, you
(23:52):
know, sort of explains likehere's how your mind works and
here's why this is a good idea,and so forth, and the videos
videos, like you know, intypical tiktok are like do this
and that's uh, that's about it.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Um, it's like yeah, and that's what they want of
course.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
yeah, that's totally what they want.
They're also, like, I think,have zero interest in buying a
book and, and you know, theyjust want to absorb it from
TikTok.
My youngest, you know, said,you know I've had more than one
video that's gotten a millionviews.
And my daughter said, like Dad,you've probably sold like 10
books from TikTok.
(24:28):
And I was like I'm aware, I'maware, but that's okay.
I mean like it's stilldisseminating in a different way
.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
So we were talking a little bit about what parents
can do and obviously, loving,caring parents, who are all our
audience, you know, I thinkduring COVID became more aware
of their students you knowlearning and their study habits,
and in my community ofdisability services
(24:57):
professionals, as I'm sure inlots of other educational areas,
we're sort of starting to seethe effects of the COVID
teaching environment andexpectations at the but have you
seen any effect on students'ability to be independent
learners that you've evenobserved in your own classes,
(25:18):
pre and post-COVID?
On this, at the college levelthere are surveys of elementary
and secondary teachers, you knowsort of confirming.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
They feel like they're definitely seeing a
difference post-COVID in termsof students' stamina, in terms
of students' self-confidence,their willingness to take on
assignments.
And even though there aren'tlike big surveys like that,
there are a zillion anecdotes.
I mean I haven't, I haven'tI've yet to meet a college
(26:05):
professor who's like oh yeah,like we're back from COVID like
just the way they were before,like there's nobody who is
saying that.
And I definitely see it in myown teaching.
I mentioned my introduction tocognitive psychology class and
that's the one I've been.
I started teaching that as agraduate student, so I've been
teaching that since the 80s.
(26:26):
And that course, you know,doesn't the content changes, of
course, as the science changes,but my expectations really
haven't.
You know, it's an introductorycourse and so there's lots of
vocabulary you have to get underyour belt and some, you know,
there's basic concepts that areunfamiliar to people.
It's not an easy course.
I mean it's like taking, youknow, bio 101 or chem 101 or
(26:49):
whatever.
And this, post-covid, is thefirst time I've had students say
like this is, you know, yourexpectations are unreasonable in
this course, like no one couldlearn this much, you know.
And I try not to be thefuddy-duddy and say, you know,
like well, you know back in myday, everybody.
(27:11):
You know, it's not just back inmy day, it's like you know back
in 2019 and every year up untilthen people did, and they didn't
love it because they thoughtthe course was hard, but they
recognized that.
You know this is sort of whatcollege is.
So, yes, I think I definitelysee a substantial difference in
(27:32):
student expectations post-COVID.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
And even before that.
I was just curious.
You know, since you've beendoing this for some time, you
know back the old, you know backin my day, but do you see
differences in students studyand learning habits since you
initially became a professor?
I mean, is it noticeable anychanges?
Speaker 4 (27:52):
I don't think.
No, I don't think.
So yeah, I don't think forbetter or worse.
It's really all post-COVID thatthings have changed.
Yeah, and you know I mean theNAEP scores just came out for
12th grade reading this morning.
(28:13):
They're really bad.
I mean, this is, you know, thisis a consequence of, and so you
know, students who are incollege right now are sort of
living with the aftermath ofCOVID from when they were in
high school.
And yeah it's, they don't havethe skills.
(28:36):
And so, getting back to sort ofwhat, what parents can do and
what educators can do about thisCOVID problem, I mean I
recommend a two part strategy.
One is, like you know,expectations need to be what
expectations are?
What is appropriate work for acollege freshman to be doing?
(28:57):
Like if you're taking, you know, chem 101 or English 101 or
whatever it is like we can'tjust say like, well, you know,
from here on, you know, we justexpect them to learn less.
That doesn't make any sense.
But at the same time as we youknow, that is going to be new to
(29:17):
students, right?
Those expectations are going toseem much higher to students,
and so we need to also expect tooffer more support, because
they haven't been doing workknowledge that students that we
were used to five years ago orwhatever, and so we have to
(29:42):
account for that about how we'regoing to bring them up to speed
, and also they don't have theskill set, so we need to provide
that instruction and support,not just setting high
expectations, but also givingstudents the tools they need so
that they can meet thoseexpectations.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
So I want to sort of follow that up with a question.
I teach mostly freshmen, somesophomores, but I mostly have
them deer in the headlights asthey come in.
And they're hit with thoseexpectations and all of that.
And it seems to me there areoften.
I mean, there are lots ofstudents in the middle, but
(30:29):
there are some students whomanage they could do a lot
better, but they're stayingafloat and then there are those
students who, when they're facedwith all this, they just they
crash and burn.
It's a disaster.
And I'm wondering if you haveany thoughts about whether it's
(30:52):
sometimes I think those studentswho crash and burn actually
have an advantage, becausethey've figured out that
everything they're doing doesn'twork, where those students who
are managing think they're doingokay.
And I'm wondering whether,whether there are any thoughts
about which is who is it easierfor or harder to make these
(31:14):
shifts?
Speaker 4 (31:16):
that's a really interesting observation and it
it strikes me.
I mean, the first thing I thinkof is like well, this is
something that could be anempirical question and there
probably there are datasomewhere, like what are the
outcomes for the students whohave a disastrous semester, how
many of them sort of get theiract together and figure out?
Speaker 3 (31:37):
okay, like what.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
I was doing was just not working and then end up, you
know, really sort of rocketingahead and how many you know
don't do that and give up and orwhatever, and I don't know the
answer to that.
It is the kind of thing I mean.
As you know, first gen statusis a predictor of trouble in
(32:06):
college.
A lot of these students reallystruggle in college and there's
more than one interpretationabout why that is.
But sort of having setbacks andthen not having either the
self-confidence that I reallybelong here.
There's no doubt that I'm acollege student and that I will
(32:29):
succeed.
Obviously, that sort ofattribution is very important
for what you do when you have asetback and everybody has
setbacks when they uh, whenthey're in college.
And then the other thing is,you know, having knowledge, it's
it's all very nice to say likeI need to do something different
.
Do you know what it is you'resupposed to do?
Speaker 3 (32:50):
and if you don't?
Speaker 4 (32:50):
know what to do.
Do you know where to look to,uh, to get that information?
Speaker 1 (32:56):
um, so yeah, that's what strikes me as relevant.
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
I'm just so excited so I just, vicki, just did a an
episode recently on resources oncampus.
So, especially for these firstgen students, you know, for
parents who are listening andeverybody's parents, it's really
important to let your studentsknow that there are all sorts of
help resources on campus andthat they exist, because we do
(33:26):
expect students to struggle, weit's.
You know there's a commonexpression that college is not
grade 13, or at least it'scommon among people I know
working at the college level,and so you know the expectations
are increased, as Dr Willinghamsaid, and you know they're also
, in so many cases, managingtheir own lives.
(33:47):
You know the time management,the personal hygiene, the, you
know the sleep hygiene stuff,and so a lot of schools have
writing centers, they havetutoring centers, they may have
academic coaching to helpstudents start to learn to
manage their time.
Counseling centers are reallyimportant for mental health, and
(34:08):
so make sure your students areaware of this stuff Because, to
Dr Willingham's point about, youknow, self doubt and do I
belong here?
Imposter syndrome, they shouldbe aware that a lot of students
feel this way and that thesupports are there for them.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
So that's such an important point and it because
it is so much easier if you'regoing to ask for help at all.
It's so much easier to ask yourroommate or the person down the
hall and so on, and that's OK,that's better than I ask anyone.
But I mean, like they're notprofessionals.
You, you know, and it's likeyou're talking about I mean the
people, like this is their life,this is what they do
(34:48):
professionally and they reallyknow what they're talking about
and they're very thoughtfulabout it and you're much more
likely to get helpful advicefrom these professionals than
you are from the verywell-meaning roommate.
But they're kind of like youknow, there may be like three
months ahead of you in all this.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
They may not be doing well either.
They may not be.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
They may be putting up a really good show, but
things are not great for them.
The other thing that occurs tome and I wish I had mentioned
this before, when I was talkingabout higher expectations for
that that educators are placingand that they also need to make
sure that they're givingstudents tools the other thing
they need to do is expressconfidence to students that
students can meet thoseexpectations.
(35:32):
And you know, I sometimes say,if you're going to boil down all
of the education literature and, by the way, the parenting
literature as well into asentence, it would be something
like set high expectations,express confidence they can be
met and promise support inmeeting them.
Right, you need all three ofthose elements and that's yeah,
(35:58):
definitely applies here.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Vicki, if it's okay, I want to jump in with one of my
questions here, because it sortof seems to dovetail a little
bit on this.
Again, I come to thisconversation as a perspective of
somebody who works in a collegedisability services office and
as part of my job I reviewstudents' requests for
accommodations and I'm seeingstudents coming out of high
(36:27):
school who have beenaccommodated with, for instance,
copies of the teacher's notesor study guides prepared by a
teacher.
You know being allowed to havea formula sheet or a set of
notes and you know well-meaning,loving parents and again I'm
assuming it's parents' requestand I should not do that but
well-meaning adults sometimesprovide these accommodations for
(36:47):
students in high school becausethings are challenging for
students based on theirdisability.
But I am a great believer, asyou just talked about this
concept of self-efficacy right,believing that you can do things
and having the adults aroundyou is part of self-efficacy, I
guess you know, and that yousucceed by doing things, and
(37:08):
maybe not perfectly, but if youdo them you'll believe in your
ability to do them.
So this is an awkward way toget around to.
You know, are theseaccommodations in your view,
counterproductive?
Not just because, from myperspective, they're probably
not going to get some of thoseaccommodations.
You know getting a formulasheet or notes.
I have no data, but from theconversations in my community of
(37:31):
professionals, it's not doesn'tappear to be commonly approved
Instead of copies of theprofessor's notes and I mean,
would anybody understand yourown notes, dr William, lecture
notes if they were to get a copyof them?
You know, in these ways they'renot asking students to learn
(37:52):
how to do things and be moreindependent.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
So yeah, so there are a few components of what you
said.
So first, I agree in terms ofaccommodations that are commonly
offered on college campuses.
I, of course, only know aboutmy personal experience, but my
experience certainly isconsistent with what you
described.
(38:15):
I've never heard of a studentgetting an accommodation where
they get access to theprofessor's notes when the rest
of the class does not.
It's usually much more in thevein of there's an obstacle to
(38:43):
your accessing the content orparticipating in the class.
That isn't really that relevantto the learning experience but
nevertheless presents anobstacle.
So, you know, most obvious caseis, you know, the student has
difficulty with the motor aspectof writing or something, and so
they do get access to classnotes.
They probably wouldn't be mynotes, they would be a peer's
notes or something like that.
The that, that, that instancethat actually that I happen to
(39:07):
pick, is one that it's not ideal, because the process of taking
notes actually does improve yourretention of your memory of the
content.
But if it's, you know, ifyou've really got dysgraphia,
then it's not doing that for you, it's not helping.
But yeah, any, you knowsomething that you know.
(39:31):
I mentioned before thedifference between performance
and learning, and so it's amistake to think that learning
and this is a very commonmisconception among students and
probably among parents toolearning means sitting down and
committing things to memory.
(39:52):
Studying means trying to cramthings into my memory.
There are many activities thatyou do that contribute to your
learning.
That may not look like learningto you.
So and you know I frequentlyrecommend this as when start
(40:14):
this way, when students come tome and say, professor William,
I'm very frustrated because Ifelt like I'm doing, you know,
really really preparing, andthen I'm not doing very well on
assessments and I don't knowwhat's going on.
When I talk with them aboutstudying again by studying, the
only thing they think thatmatters is trying to cram things
(40:36):
into my memory.
So something like going onQuizlet to get a slide deck that
someone else has prepared, theyview as a great idea because
that saves time.
Making my own deck is like aprelude to learning.
It's a precursor to learning.
But I'm not going to learnanything by making my own deck,
(40:58):
and so I have to point out tothem that's not right.
Like actually evaluating what'simportant enough to go into a
deck.
What kinds of questions shouldI pose?
What are the connections amongall of this content?
All of that is really reallygood for your memory.
So this is a slightlyroundabout way of getting at
your question.
(41:19):
It's one way of evaluatingaccommodations.
Is this something?
Are you essentially takingsomething away from the students
.
That is really a learningopportunity.
It's not just like they havedifficulty doing this.
They may have difficulty doingit, it doesn't mean it's
(41:39):
actually not a pretty helpfulthing for them to do.
So you know, I can give you mynotes.
But unless taking your ownnotes in class is so distracting
and, you know, just rattles youso much that it's really really
taking away from yourexperience, that'd be one thing.
If your notes end up looking alittle messy, a little you know,
(42:02):
and they're, you know they'renot great, your notes like,
maybe we can find another wayfor those notes to end up being
more productive.
But we shouldn't automaticallythink, oh, you can't do that.
Accommodation is I'm going togive you your, give you my notes
, because then in trying to helpyou I'm actually maybe taking
something away from you.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
And for those wondering about note-taking
accommodations, I have aSubstack post that we'll put in
the show notes about note-takingand how colleges often view
that.
And so even you know there areno current.
The only data we have is froman old study and 16.8% of
(42:44):
students in this nationallyrepresentative sample got copies
of notes from a note taker.
But that's also beforetechnology exploded and all of
these apps you know came along.
So my guess would be that fewerstudents are getting human note
takers, except, as DrWillingham said, in cases of
(43:05):
students with actual physicallimitations on their ability to
take notes.
But also, you know, we need tobe aware of the purpose of those
notes, which is basically tosupplement students' own notes.
Colleges typically expectstudents to take their own notes
, not because we're just mean,terrible people, but you know
that's part of the learningprocess.
Speaker 4 (43:24):
Right.
And now, this is.
This question is especiallyrelevant also for students
without accommodations, becauseit's so, it's so readily
available to have an app takenotes for you.
You just have your phone,listen to the professor's
lecture and notes pop out.
And so, yes, students,absolutely, you know, students'
(43:45):
interpretation is sweet.
I don't really have to listenbecause the notes are being
taken.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
for me, that goes to that active-passive sort of
thing.
Speaker 4 (43:56):
Yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
I see that in the classroom too.
Speaker 4 (44:13):
We were so excited about having this conversation.
Yes, yes, have a marvelous time.
Okay, well, let's keep going.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
We'd love to, but we do need to sort of wrap things
up, I think, especially forparents.
I really love and I don't wantto put words in your mouth, but
for me there's a summary in whatyou said just a few minutes ago
about those three things tocommunicate to students, because
(44:42):
I think that is something thatparents can actually do, and
that is that idea of highexpectations and the confidence
that you really can do thisthing, and then I'm going to
provide the support for you orhelp you find the support you
need.
And so for any parents who'vemade it this far in listening
(45:03):
and are saying, yes, that'sgreat, but that's all
information for students, Ithink there's really a message
there that they have animportant job.
Speaker 4 (45:14):
I'm so glad you brought that up, Vicki, and it's
maybe worth explicating just alittle bit the high expectations
is maybe obvious, maybe not.
I mean, you express highexpectations because if you have
low expectations, that sort ofindicates like this is what I
think you're capable of, right,but at the same time simply
(45:36):
saying like I expect A's fromyou, that's, you know, sort of
scary right.
It's like, okay, like you're a,you know you're a tough guy.
but like I don't think I can getA's like that.
That sounds terrible to me.
So it's very important that youalso express like I know you
can do it and I have confidencein your abilities.
(45:59):
I think this is wonderful forchildren to hear from their
parents.
It's wonderful also for them toyou know some.
Depending on your relationshipwith your parents, you may also
think like you're really naive.
You know you think I can getA's.
I know good and well I can't,and that's part of the reason
why that third component is soimportant.
It's like gee, dad, it's greatthat you want me to get A's,
(46:23):
it's great you think I can do it.
I really am not so sure I cando it and so saying like I am
going to be there to be surethat you have the tools to
figure this out, I'm going to bewith you, we're going to figure
it out together.
If you struggle, that's youknow.
That's much more reassuring tostudents.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
Yeah, that's helpful.
I almost wonder whether parentsand students can work together
on the expectations as well.
You know, let's together createwhat we expect.
This has been wonderful.
Speaker 4 (46:58):
Really that's such a nice point.
Yeah, you mean just sort ofsitting down having a
conversation about here's howit's gone.
You know, I think you could dobetter.
Like what do you think?
Yeah, and I mean, from talkingwith educators and parents, a
(47:18):
lot of times your kids surpriseyou, like you know, your kids
are in a way harder onthemselves than you would be on
them, and they say, like this iswhat my goal would be, and
you're like, yikes, okay, thatsounds great, let's see if we
can do it.
But yeah, I mean, it'sinspiring too, yeah, and it also
(47:39):
helps you, like you know, helpthem think through a plan B.
It's like okay if you don't makethe Dean's list, like what
would that mean, like what wouldstill be a good outcome, and so
on.
So you can kind of, you know,talk them down if they're, if
they are setting unrealisticallyhigh expectations and, of
course, unrealistically low aswell.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
So I was going to say , vicky, and I think in that
episode that I was justreferring to, you guys also talk
about, you know, making surethat they know, if things aren't
going the way they expect, withthese high expectations, to go
reach out for that support, thatit isn't something about them
if they don't, you know, if theyget to college and they're
starting to struggle, but thatyou know the answer shouldn't
(48:21):
just be well, I wasn't cut outfor this.
My goal's right.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
So much to think about.
Tell us and tell parents, tellour listeners how they can find
you, how they can find you onTikTok, how they can reach out
if they need to reach out ifthey need to.
Speaker 4 (48:48):
Danielwillinghamcom has everything to which I own
the copyright and thereforecould post.
An article can be found atDanielWillinghamcom and there's
lots of different topics there.
It's also got links to my books.
It's got a link to my TikTokaccount and my X account, so
yeah, Okay, and we will put allof that in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
And, once again, the book we are talking about today
is Outsmart your Brain, whyLearning is Hard and how you Can
Make it Easy.
So parents are going to want toget that for their students.
Dr Willingham, thank you somuch for taking time to talk to
us today and share so much withall of our parents.
(49:30):
Absolutely and thanks toeveryone for listening and we'll
see you next time.
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