July 25, 2023 • 37 mins
Kim Clark interviews Michael Hingson in this week’s episode of Communicate Like You Give A Damn. Hingson was born blind and grew up with parents who believed in raising their son with a can-do attitude. Kim and Michael talk about the things we need to be looking at and doing to make our channels more accessible. We need to never assume, we always need to ask. Hingson works with a company called AccessiBe which provides an artificial intelligence-based product that makes web sites accessible to all persons with disabilities. Clark and Hingson talk about the tips for designing social media and how to design within organizations with DEI from the onset. We need to get past the idea that people with disabilities lack ability!
About The Guest:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/
https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson
https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/
accessiBe Links
https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe
https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/
https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/
About Kim:
Kim Clark (she/her) focuses her work on the communicator and content creator's role in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). She is the co-author of The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid sh*t, an Amazon #1 bestseller and the leading voice for DEI communications and social justice messaging for brands.
She speaks at conferences, writes custom workshops, writes inclusive communications guides, and consults with companies on all things related to diversity, equity, and inclusion communications. Kim is a member of the LGBTQ+ community, a cisgender woman, Native American (Muscogee Nation) and a mom of two kids with disabilities. These marginalized identities and the privileges that come with society seeing her as White motivate her daily for social change.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kim Clark (00:00):
Hi, everybody, Kim Clark here with another
(00:02):
opportunity to learn more deicommunication skills for the
variety of audiences that weconstantly serve. And my special
guest, today is Michael Hinkson,who has an amazing story about
being in New York City in theWorld Trade Towers on 911. So
(00:24):
you have to check out his story.Michael, thank you for taking
the time to answer some of myquestions.
Michael Hingson (00:31):
Well, glad to do it. And of course, if people
really want to get the fullstory, being a poor, starving
author, I always promote thunderdog, the story of a blind man,
his guide dog and the triumph oftrust, which is available
anywhere you get books fromBarnes and Noble, to Amazon to
wherever. So hopefully, peoplewill go by thunder dog and find
it inspiring and interesting.
Kim Clark (00:53):
Thank you. Thank you. Good. Thanks for putting your
story out there. So we work ascommunicators within companies
and organizations, all over theworld. And we have a lot of
control over the kind ofchannels that we use, such as
internal websites or intranet,or some sort of digital
(01:16):
workspaces. We have meetingsthat we run, like the all
company meetings. You know, wehave feedback mechanisms for
employees, we are producingvideos for internally and
externally. So help usunderstand what we need to be
looking at and doing ascommunicators to make our
(01:40):
channels more accessible? Well,
Michael Hingson (01:43):
first thing I would say is, don't assume
people do that way too often.They think they're experts on
blindness, although they'venever tried it. And the bottom
line is being blind, I will useblindness, but it can go across
other boundaries as well. Butthe bottom line is, don't make
assumptions. And as a result,what people really need to do is
(02:07):
to ask people, one of thebiggest fears is getting anyone
let's say, who is blind, as anemployee in a company, oh, it's
going to cost too much, oh, it'sgoing to just be very difficult,
oh, I'm going to have to changeso many things. How do you know
is it really going to cost much,given the amount of money that
we spend today, with what weprovide for employees to keep
(02:30):
them comfortable, and so on, Idon't see the problem. coffee
machines. And I've seen somethat are pretty fancy with
touchscreens, and they'll doanything from coffee and tea and
hot chocolate and all differentkinds of coffee, and everything
else. And the companies pay forthat. They pay for Windows so
you can look outside. They payfor air conditioning to keep you
cool. They pay for lighting, soyou can see your way around. But
(02:53):
if I want a screen reading pieceof software so that I can hear
whatever is going across whatyou would see on your monitor,
Oh, that's too expensive. Wecan't provide that balderdash.
It's what's called a reasonableaccommodation under the
Americans with Disabilities Act.And why shouldn't I be able to
have a screen reading softwarepackage that will allow me to
(03:13):
hear what's on the computer,since we already provide
everyone else with monitors thatallow you to see what's on the
computer screen? So the bottomline is don't ask or don't don't
assume, ask and find out what itreally costs and don't make
assumptions about what blindnessis or blindness isn't. Because
(03:34):
the reality is, you probablywill totally miss assess it. And
so the first thing to do is toask. The second thing is one of
the things if you truly go downthis road, you will learn that
there are a lot of things thatyou could do to make a meeting
or anything you do more usablefor a blind person that will
(03:54):
actually help everyone in thecompany. Perfect example,
meeting coming up in two days,everyone needs to be there or a
group of people need to bethere. What typically happens,
all the handouts are created, aPowerPoint presentation may even
be created. But everything iscreated and handed out at the
meeting. What's the problem withthat? People are going to spend
(04:18):
their time reading thePowerPoint, people are going to
spend their time reading thehandouts, when if you were truly
efficient, you would get allthat information to them ahead
of time. So that in fact, whenyou're at the actual meeting,
you can truly be more productiveand efficient and actually deal
with the issues that you want totalk about rather than allowing
(04:40):
time for people to prepare, whenthey should do that ahead of
time. Some of us call thatconcept, no Braille, no meeting,
if you don't provide me theinformation and it may or may
not need to truly be availablein Braille but it needs to be
made available in a usableelectronic form. If you do that,
and If you do that, for everyonewho's going to be at the
(05:02):
meeting, think of how much moretime you can truly spend
discussing the issues of themeeting, rather than people just
spending all their time readingit. And, in general, there is so
much that we could do to makeinformation more accessible
ahead of time. I've been to somany speeches, where people do
(05:24):
these great glorious PowerPointpresentations. And the speaker
is off talking, whatever thespeaker is talking about, but
again, what are people doing,they're reading the PowerPoint
presentation, rather than thespeaker talking about the
PowerPoint presentation,bringing in the data that's on
the PowerPoint presentation, ifthey truly need to show it, they
(05:45):
should be talking about it aswell, so that people who don't
see the PowerPoint presentationcan follow it. So the bottom
line is, it takes not a lot ofpreparation. What it takes is a
change in mindset to recognizesome people may not get the
information the way you are. Andoh, by the way, what about
people who are dyslexic peoplewho have dyslexia aren't going
to read that information on thePowerPoint presentation either.
(06:07):
So it really is fair toreconsider how we present
information and meetings orother things that we do with the
company. And to truly make it aninclusive environment. I could
also make the case that if youhire a blind person, for
example, that accompany and youtruly allow them to become part
(06:28):
of the company, the odds areyou're going to have a much more
loyal employee at that companythan you would ever have from
just hiring the average personwho happens to be able to see
who when the next job with ahigher potential salary comes
along, they'll jump ship. For meas a blind person. I appreciate
(06:49):
how hard it was to probably getthat job in the first place. And
I'm not really as likely to gooff and just jump unless
somebody makes me an incredibleoffer. I can't refuse. But I
would also probably bring thatto you and say, look, here's
what's happening. What do we doabout that? The reality is I'm
going to be loyal to the peoplewho are loyal to me a lot more
than most people are. And that'san incredibly valuable asset
(07:12):
that companies don't tend torecognize.
Kim Clark (07:17):
Oh, that was excellent. Thank you so much for
all of those tips, Michael. Alldoable within our power to be
thinking through. Absolutely.
Michael Hingson (07:27):
It's absolutely all doable. It's not magic at
all.
Kim Clark (07:31):
Can we can you talk about you work with
accessibility? Now this is aboutwebsites and making them more
accessible? And so talk throughlike, what do we need to be
looking at and doing around ourwebsites to ensure that they are
more accessible as well.
Michael Hingson (07:48):
The World Wide Web Consortium has created
something called the Web ContentAccessibility Guidelines. Some
companies have adopted them,they adopted them as actual
standards, but places like theUS have not yet done so. But the
guidelines are there and theydefine what having an accessible
website means. It means thingslike when you create a link,
(08:12):
using technology, which any goodcoder knows how to do to make
sure that the links are labeled.So when I come across a link, I
don't hear link, I hear Facebooklink or twitter link or order
link. The the carts areaccessible because they are
appropriately labeled and madeso that anyone can use them.
(08:36):
None of that is really hard todo. The problem is we don't
emphasize it because we don'temphasize disabilities. We still
operate under the premise thatdisability means lack of
ability. We've had no problemtaking the word diversity and
throwing disabilities out ofdiversity. How often do you hear
(08:57):
Hollywood? Or do you hear mostcompanies talking about
diversity, and what they defineas being a diverse population,
gender, race, sexualorientation, some social
attitudes, disabilities aren'tincluded? Because the
presumption is we're still notcapable. And that's why we have
a 70% plus unemployment rateamong employable persons with
(09:18):
disabilities in the UnitedStates. It's not that we can't
work it's people think we can'twork because as I also said,
once before, they've never triedit. The reality is they should
give us the same opportunitiesand the same benefits of the
doubt that they give otherpeople only access a B was
created by three guys whostarted a company in 2015 in
(09:41):
Israel to make websites forcustomers, and they made a whole
slew of websites and they soldthem all and did a great job.
But then 2017 came along inIsrael, legislature said
websites have to be accessible.And these guys are going What do
we do? Above that, they studiedit. They're bright guys, they
(10:03):
were actually in 2019, under theForbes 30, under 30 group, they
were very interested in how dowe make this work. And they
created to start with anartificial, intelligent widget
that is a piece of technologythat sits in the cloud. And they
started selling it to people,it's like $500 a year to get it.
And what it does is it goesthrough and an analyzes your
(10:25):
website. And then what it doesby analyzing it is to say,
here's what I can fix, here'swhat I can fix, and it will go
off and fix all the things thatit can. So what we'll put labels
on links, because a Facebooklink is a Facebook link that
people know about, becausethere's something for sighted
people that tell you, it'sFacebook, not necessarily for me
(10:47):
as a blind person. But the link,whatever is in that graphic
defines it as Facebook orTwitter or whatever. And so
excessively looks at that, andit says, It's Facebook link, I'm
gonna put the Facebook label in,and so that when somebody comes
across that link, they'llactually hear it's a Facebook
link, or you get to a link thathas a little arrow at the
(11:10):
bottom, that indicates it's adrop down. And if you click on
that appropriately, it will openthe menu or whatever. But if I
hear that link, unless somebodyhas labeled it appropriately, it
just says link. And if I clickon it, I get a different
response than you do. But whenexcessive B encounters that
link, it says oh, there's thislittle arrow here at the bottom,
(11:31):
it's a drop down, I'm going togo ahead and indicate that it's
a drop down or a menu. And sowhen I come across a link after
excessive BS running on awebsite, and it has that little
arrow at the bottom, it says tome like products menu, and if I
click on it, the menu opens upjust like it does for you. None
(11:54):
of the coding is complex,really. But it still is
something that only happens whenpeople are aware and take the
time to do something about it.The problem is, especially on
smaller websites, to hiresomebody to do well, that could
cost 1000s of dollars. Andthat's why as I said excessively
is only a few $100. And it's afew $100 a year, because once
(12:17):
you've done what you can withthe widget, the AI widget to
make the website accessible, itwill continue to monitor the
website. And anytime you makechanges, and so on, it will fix
whatever comes along that it canto continue to provide
accessibility for the thingsthat it doesn't do with the AI
widget, such as pictures ofpeople and complex graphs and so
(12:39):
on depending on the site, whatit will do is to tell you what
it can't do. And then you eithercan get a coder to fix it a
programmer or accessibly has theservices to do that. So the
bottom line is access a B todaymakes inclusion available for a
variety of disabilities, thereare some that it still doesn't
do directly with the widget. Sofor example, if you have a
(13:02):
website with a bunch of videos,you can't use artificial
intelligence to put in audiodescriptions. So I know what's
on those videos. Butaccessibilities service staff
under a product called Accessflow can help do that. They can
remediate and make PDF documentsthat are otherwise inaccessible,
accessible. So excessively cando the full service or they can
(13:26):
provide the widget part. Andthen if you've got other people
that you're using already tomake your website the rest of
the way accessible. Let theartificial intelligent widget do
what it can and your coders havea much less complicated time
making the rest of the siteaccessible. And that's what
accessibility is. If anyonewants to learn about it, they
can go to access a B ACCE SSI, Be.com. And one of the things
(13:49):
that you can do while you'rethere is you can go to the link
that says Find out howaccessible your website is, you
plug in your website, and itwill tell you how accessible it
is or it isn't. And then you candecide how you want to address
that from there. But today, theDepartment of Justice has said
that the internet is a place ofreasonable accommodations. So
(14:10):
the bottom line is people needto make their websites
accessible, there is no excusefor not doing it. And do it for
the right reason. Yeah, you canbe sued. That can happen.
Lawyers are always looking formoney. But here's the real
reason to do it. The NielsenCompany, you know, the Nielsen
ratings, people did a survey in2016. And what they found in the
(14:33):
2016 survey was that personswith disabilities tend to be
incredibly much more brand loyalto websites and to brands that
they can use. In other words, ifI go to a website, and I can use
it, I'm not going to goelsewhere to do shopping unless
it really doesn't have on thatsite, the product that I want.
(14:54):
I'm going to go to where I canuse the site rather than having
a lot of complicated things. Andso If you make your website
truly usable for persons withdisabilities, using the numbers
from the Center for DiseaseControl, you are making your
website available to 25% morepeople than you ever would have
had access to before. And whenyou want to do that, get all
(15:14):
that extra business, I would.
Kim Clark (15:18):
Thank you that I'm sitting here nodding a lot,
because I don't want tointerrupt you audibly. But just
know that I, I just reallyappreciate everything that you
said. And you're right. There'sjust no excuses. Absolutely no
excuses.
Michael Hingson (15:34):
There is no excuse. Today, it's a lack of
education, and there shouldn'tbe a lack of education. And all
the capabilities are there, ifwe would do it.
Kim Clark (15:44):
And that's a big part of what we do as conscious
communicators is being veryintentional. You know, and being
conscious about our differentchannels and how accessible they
are. Let me ask you a couple ofquestions around social media
and storytelling. First, I'llstart with social media. So as
something that while you weretalking about the websites, I
(16:05):
think about hashtags. And Ithink about images that people
post, that there are now likemajor social media platforms
that invite someone to do an alttag within the image. Can you
walk through the importance ofthat, as well as with hashtags
(16:26):
I've been told if there'smultiple words and a hashtag to
have a capital letter at thebeginning of each word. So it
can be read by screen readers.And so I just want to double
check that with you. Is thataccurate? And and what are some
tips around social media poststhat we can make more
accessible?
Michael Hingson (16:46):
Well, if you have a hashtag like hashtag Elmo
Schwartz? Yeah, you're gonnaprobably capitalize Elmo and
Schwartz. So let's say you havea hashtag like, runner in
Sherwood Forest. Well,Sherwood's capitalized, but
anyway, I don't know that it hasto be capitalized, it certainly
(17:06):
would, would help define theword if there's, if there's,
well, I guess the issue reallyis if you've got several words
in, you don't with a hashtag,you don't put a space between
them. Right? Right. And so like,so that's why you put the
capital letters so that thesystem the person will hear
hashtag running down the street,you capitalize the AR, the D,
(17:31):
the T and the s. And it will bea lot easier for person to hear
hashtag running down the street,then right on the street, and
it's all combined together, andit tries to treat it as one
separate word. So that's thereason for doing it. It isn't
it's a clarity issue. So itmakes sense to put a capital
letter in at the beginning ofeach word, since they're all
(17:56):
connected together, and there'sno space, the idea behind all
tags, and so on. Those are thekinds of things that create the
labels, so that I understandwhat a picture shows. And when
there is an opportunity to putthose tags in people should do
it. What's really unfortunate isyou've got companies like
(18:16):
WordPress, WordPress creates,through its technology, hundreds
1000s or 10s of 1000s ofwebsites inexpensively. What it
does not do is have any facilityrequiring that those websites be
accessible. If WordPress wouldright from the outset, as a
(18:40):
person who is designing awebsite using WordPress tools,
insist that accessibility has tobe included and guide someone
through that process likeeverything else, then all those
websites would be accessible.Well, WordPress doesn't do that.
Apple made their iPhoneaccessible, they were gonna get
sued, but they did it. They madethe apple the iPhone, the iPod,
(19:02):
now the poor late iPod, theMacBook Pro, well, all MacBooks
and other technologies, iTunes Uand so on, they've made
accessible. And they've done agood job with it. I can go to
any store by any iPhone. And itwill allow me if I'm the first
(19:26):
person to turn it on, to be ableto invoke accessibility right
from the outset. So I can thenuse it. I can always do it
later. But it's great when I cando it myself right from the
outset. Microsoft has done that.And I know Dell has done that
with some of their computersystems. I bought one a few
years ago a Dell system. And Ididn't even realize it. And when
(19:46):
I turned it on, it startedtalking to me and it says do you
want accessibility? I went, Oh,that's great. But here's the
problem even with Apple. Theydon't do a single solitary thing
to require that Apple appdeveloper burrs include
accessibility. So I can have anapp that works one day and it's
totally inaccessible the nextday with the next update. And no
(20:08):
matter what guidelines andinformation Apple provides,
there's no requirement to dothat. Apple with the Apple
police that deal with every appthat comes through their store
have any number of differentthings that they require. And
they could require that level ofaccessibility of some sort to be
in every app, and they don't dothat. So there's a long way to
(20:30):
go. And there's no doubt thatthe best way to deal with access
is to make it native right fromthe outset, whether it be for me
as a blind person, whether it beusing different kinds of
technologies, and emphasizingwords for a person with
dyslexia, or ADHD, whether it besomething where it gives a
person the ability to turn offthe requirement to use a mouse
(20:52):
to highlight something, butrather use a keyboard, any
number of things, all those areoptions. And the the
manufacturers of thetechnologies and so on couldn't
make that stuff available, ifthey would, but they don't. So
today, for example, there can bea Windows Update, that will
suddenly cause my screen readernot to talk properly, because
(21:14):
Windows made a change in thescreen reader manufacturer has
to catch up rather than Windowsdealing with it from the outset.
So there's a lot that needs tobe done even by the bigger
organizations.
Kim Clark (21:28):
Designing the DEI from the beginning, that's
really the call to action. Inspecifically,
Michael Hingson (21:36):
it's true inclusion right from the outset.
Kim Clark (21:38):
Yeah, absolutely. Just embedded through the
process across the organization.All right. Now, something that a
lot of us communicators do is alot of storytelling. And one
thing that I want to make surethat us as conscious
communicators do is to make surethat we're not participating in
(21:59):
any kind of performativestorytelling around the
community of you know, peoplewith disabilities, how do we
make sure that our storytellingis truly authentic, and helpful?
Encouraging transformation andencouraging visibility, and
calls to action? In advocacy forpeople with disabilities to
(22:23):
ensure that we're not, you know,that we're not performative? In
our storytelling? What kind oftips do you
Michael Hingson (22:31):
have stories, like a long time ago, when a
galaxy far far? Look, the bestthing to do? There are
organizations of persons withdisabilities and one thing to do
is to go to some of thoseorganizations like the National
Federation of the Blind. And andto talk with them or to if you
(22:55):
know, someone who has aparticular disability, you can
you can always go talk withthem. But if you want to look
for trends, I would I woulddefinitely suggest going to
consumer organizations. Sohere's a great example. If you
talk to a person who is deaf, orwho doesn't hear well, how do
you describe those people?
Kim Clark (23:17):
I'm now asking you. Well, since I write inclusive
communications guides, I cankind of cheat and say that I've
had people who are definitelyreview those sections, and what
did
Michael Hingson (23:29):
they and what did they say that you should
describe them as,
Kim Clark (23:33):
as deaf? Or? Hard of Hearing?
Michael Hingson (23:39):
Exactly. Now, why not hearing impaired? Why is
it deaf or hard of hearing? Andnot deaf or hearing impaired?
Kim Clark (23:52):
Well, I know that there's a lot of stigma that has
been perpetuated as far as toyour earlier point of still of
being incapable or lesser than.And so we're censoring the
person. And some are choosingidentity first. But in general,
(24:13):
especially those of us whoaren't part of that population,
my understanding and pleasecorrect me if I'm wrong, that
the community wishes to bepeople first. If we're talking
at it from a general sense,
Michael Hingson (24:25):
well, but the preference is deaf or hard of
hearing, deaf or hard ofhearing, but not deaf or hearing
impaired. Because hearingimpaired does create such a
stigma is such a negative thing.You're now comparing a person
who doesn't hear well, to aperson who hears well, your
(24:45):
hearing impaired as opposed tohard of hearing and I know many
politicians who might score wellon an audio test but they
certainly are not able to hearvery well but we won't go there.
But in the Why in this world,for example, because of all of
the professionals in the worldstill, we're referred to as
(25:06):
blind or visually impaired.There are two problems with
visually impaired one. Visually,I'm not different if I happen to
be blind. Why do people saythat? Because you're, you're
visually impaired because you'reblind. So you don't, you clearly
don't look the same. It's not avisual thing at all. And then
the whole concept also ofimpaired, why is it that we have
(25:30):
such a hard time getting peopleto say, blind or low vision,
just like we talked about deafor hard of hearing, the stigmas
are still there. Even years ago,the Gallup polling organization
did a number of surveys aboutpeople's fears. One of the top
five fears up until the 2000s.And a little after one of those
(25:56):
top five fears was blindnesswasn't even disabilities, it was
blindness. Because as a society,we emphasize eyesight so much,
and all of the professionals inthe field, the educators and
everyone else, all of the socalled experts call us blind or
visually impaired, and they theyhave they have created the
(26:16):
problem. And we do need tochange it. It's not impaired.
And it's the same, I think, forvirtually any disability, you
can come up with terms that takethe stigma out of it. My wife
was a wheelchair user for herwhole life, mobility impaired,
(26:38):
she would react to that andobject to that wheelchair user
different story, right. And thereality is, you can't put
everybody in the same bucket. Sothe issue is the best way to
deal with storytelling and so onis to just ask. And like I said,
the organizations of personswith disabilities will probably
(27:01):
be the source that will give youthe most inclusive answer. If
you ask any individual I knowany number of blind people who
say, Well, I'm visuallyimpaired, what are you talking
about? You're wrong? No, you'renot visually impaired. You say
you are because you're used tothat, but you're not impaired.
Your lack of eyesight doesn'tmake you less than anyone else.
(27:23):
Your lack of eyesight means thatyou'll do things in a different
way. But it doesn't mean you'reimpaired. And that's what we
have to deal with. And I gaveyou that example. Because just
two months ago, I was doing aspeech at a school system in
Northern California, and therewas a blind woman who attended
virtually. And she called me outon visual impairment. She said,
(27:45):
I'm visually impaired and Isaid, No, you're not, you're
blind, or you're low vision, butyou're not impaired. And it was
like pulling teeth to get her toeven start to think about the
fact that maybe saying impairedwas something that had such a
horrible negative connotation.We need to get away from it.
Kim Clark (28:05):
I love this conversation. Thank you. Thank
you. And that makes me come.That makes me think of one more
question for you, Michael. Inthe Diversity, Equity and
Inclusion space, oftentimes, theterm blind spots come up when
it's talking about unconsciousbias or microaggressions. I
don't know what I don't know, Ihave blind spots, or those kinds
(28:30):
of terms, you know, somethingthat we need to be changing in
our vernacular,
Michael Hingson (28:35):
I think that's going a little too far. It
doesn't bother me. And it's,it's true. I mean, you have
spots that you don't see in carshave blind spots, for example.
We can carry it to suchextremes. And I don't think that
we need to, to deal with that.As long as we understand what it
(28:56):
is we're talking about. And weall do have blind spots of one
sort or another. It's okay, Iwatch television, by the way, I
watch movies, the dictionarydefines to see as to perceive,
at least that's one of thedefinitions. So I don't see a
need to object to something likeblind spot. Oh, I'm sure there
are some who do. But I thinkyou're carrying it too far when
(29:18):
you go that way. So blind spotdoesn't denigrate me. It
describes a specific situation.And it makes perfect sense. I am
blind, someone who can't see outof what can't see what's behind
them in their car or on the sideof their car because they don't
(29:40):
have cameras as a blind spot.They can't see there. Why worry
about it. I think there are alot more horrible things to
worry about it in the world thanthat.
Kim Clark (29:51):
Well, we definitely want to make sure a lot of
conscious communicators say wedon't want to, you know,
unintentionally offend anyone,right and sure, you're talking
about
Michael Hingson (30:00):
But but think about what you're doing. And I'm
sure that you will find peoplewho would object to blind spot.
But I think that the reality is,the vast majority of us
recognize what that term is. Andit doesn't denigrate us. You
turn a blind eye to something.Justice is blind, should we not
use those? I think that I'm notsure justice isn't, is blind.
(30:25):
But that's, you know, anotherstory. Perhaps it should be, but
it's not. But blindness isn'tthe problem. It's our
perceptions of it. And so, weneed to recognize that we can
carry things to too manyextremes, too.
Kim Clark (30:43):
Hmm. I think you're one of the points that you made
earlier about this is somethingthat's included in the inclusive
communication guides that I dofor clients is that one of the
first of the checklist is tosay, does it demean people,
human beings?
Michael Hingson (31:01):
Yeah. Does blind spot demean anybody?
Kim Clark (31:07):
Yeah, I don't think so. Right. Exactly. I'm but if
we were to use the phrase,actually, yeah. What are you
blind? You know, that's a
Michael Hingson (31:16):
different story. Right? And of course, if
somebody says that to me, theanswer is going to be Yeah. And
you. What are you stupid?
Kim Clark (31:25):
Right, understood. So I have one more question for
you. I have been on a number ofwebinars is I'm a perpetual
students. And I listen to avariety of people from a variety
of backgrounds and experiencesthat I don't personally have
intentionally. It's, it's partof my work, right. And something
that I have seen is a, somepeople will start off these
(31:49):
webinars, saying, Hi, I'm KenClark. And they will describe
what they look like, whatthey're wearing the colors, the
color of their hair color. Andso I wanted to get your feedback
on that. What do you think aboutthat? Should that be an ongoing
practice?
Michael Hingson (32:04):
Personally, I don't need it. I've never seen
colors. So if you tell me you'reblonde, doesn't mean a thing to
be. I think, again, we can carrythings to extremes. Somebody
decided to start that practice.And I know some people like to
(32:24):
hear it. And typically, it'speople probably who have had
some eyesight. And so it equatesto them. I don't know that
that's totally true. But I knowfor me, personally, I don't need
the description. I'm going tolearn about you by talking with
you, and getting to know theperson and a lot about you. And
(32:45):
if we're in the same room andtalking together, I'll figure
out how tall you are when Istand near you and talk to you
and so on. Do I really needthose descriptions, it doesn't
add a lot of value to me. So Idon't particularly need it to
happen. Again. I'm sure thereare people who do and they're
getting used to it. But for me,I don't need that.
Kim Clark (33:08):
Michael, anything else that you would like to
advise us as communicators andcontent creators to make things
more accessible?
Michael Hingson (33:16):
I think the most important thing is to make
sure that you seek out makingthings inclusive, and that you
ask the questions. I'm glad tobe a resource any way I can for
any of your people who wholisten to this. They're always
welcome to reach out to me.Emails real easy, Mike, Michael
(33:38):
hingson, mi ch AE l h i n g s on.com. And I know you're gonna
put all this up, but people arewelcome to reach out. And I'm
glad to help any way that I can.I think it's mostly common
sense. And just don't think thatwe're less than anybody else,
just because we're different.
Kim Clark (33:56):
Thank you, Michael. This has been an incredible
conversation and so helpful. Ireally appreciate knowing you.
And I really appreciate yourtime today. Thank you.
Michael Hingson (34:07):
And next time we get to talk to you and
interview you on unstoppablemindset. So everybody stay tuned
for that.
Kim Clark (34:14):
Absolutely. I'm really looking forward to
Michael Hingson (34:16):
and if any of you have any questions that you
want me to pin down Kim with youdoes let me know. He's gonna
edit this out. I bet but oh, thechair
Kim Clark (34:25):
is swinging. All right, Michael, thanks for your
time.
Michael Hingson (34:29):
My pleasure. Thank you, Kim.
Hi, everybody, Kim Clark here with another
(00:02):
opportunity to learn more deicommunication skills for the
variety of audiences that weconstantly serve. And my special
guest, today is Michael Hinkson,who has an amazing story about
being in New York City in theWorld Trade Towers on 911. So
(00:24):
you have to check out his story.Michael, thank you for taking
the time to answer some of myquestions.
Michael Hingson (00:31):
Well, glad to do it. And of course, if people
really want to get the fullstory, being a poor, starving
author, I always promote thunderdog, the story of a blind man,
his guide dog and the triumph oftrust, which is available
anywhere you get books fromBarnes and Noble, to Amazon to
wherever. So hopefully, peoplewill go by thunder dog and find
it inspiring and interesting.
Kim Clark (00:53):
Thank you. Thank you. Good. Thanks for putting your
story out there. So we work ascommunicators within companies
and organizations, all over theworld. And we have a lot of
control over the kind ofchannels that we use, such as
internal websites or intranet,or some sort of digital
(01:16):
workspaces. We have meetingsthat we run, like the all
company meetings. You know, wehave feedback mechanisms for
employees, we are producingvideos for internally and
externally. So help usunderstand what we need to be
looking at and doing ascommunicators to make our
(01:40):
channels more accessible? Well,
Michael Hingson (01:43):
first thing I would say is, don't assume
people do that way too often.They think they're experts on
blindness, although they'venever tried it. And the bottom
line is being blind, I will useblindness, but it can go across
other boundaries as well. Butthe bottom line is, don't make
assumptions. And as a result,what people really need to do is
(02:07):
to ask people, one of thebiggest fears is getting anyone
let's say, who is blind, as anemployee in a company, oh, it's
going to cost too much, oh, it'sgoing to just be very difficult,
oh, I'm going to have to changeso many things. How do you know
is it really going to cost much,given the amount of money that
we spend today, with what weprovide for employees to keep
(02:30):
them comfortable, and so on, Idon't see the problem. coffee
machines. And I've seen somethat are pretty fancy with
touchscreens, and they'll doanything from coffee and tea and
hot chocolate and all differentkinds of coffee, and everything
else. And the companies pay forthat. They pay for Windows so
you can look outside. They payfor air conditioning to keep you
cool. They pay for lighting, soyou can see your way around. But
(02:53):
if I want a screen reading pieceof software so that I can hear
whatever is going across whatyou would see on your monitor,
Oh, that's too expensive. Wecan't provide that balderdash.
It's what's called a reasonableaccommodation under the
Americans with Disabilities Act.And why shouldn't I be able to
have a screen reading softwarepackage that will allow me to
(03:13):
hear what's on the computer,since we already provide
everyone else with monitors thatallow you to see what's on the
computer screen? So the bottomline is don't ask or don't don't
assume, ask and find out what itreally costs and don't make
assumptions about what blindnessis or blindness isn't. Because
(03:34):
the reality is, you probablywill totally miss assess it. And
so the first thing to do is toask. The second thing is one of
the things if you truly go downthis road, you will learn that
there are a lot of things thatyou could do to make a meeting
or anything you do more usablefor a blind person that will
(03:54):
actually help everyone in thecompany. Perfect example,
meeting coming up in two days,everyone needs to be there or a
group of people need to bethere. What typically happens,
all the handouts are created, aPowerPoint presentation may even
be created. But everything iscreated and handed out at the
meeting. What's the problem withthat? People are going to spend
(04:18):
their time reading thePowerPoint, people are going to
spend their time reading thehandouts, when if you were truly
efficient, you would get allthat information to them ahead
of time. So that in fact, whenyou're at the actual meeting,
you can truly be more productiveand efficient and actually deal
with the issues that you want totalk about rather than allowing
(04:40):
time for people to prepare, whenthey should do that ahead of
time. Some of us call thatconcept, no Braille, no meeting,
if you don't provide me theinformation and it may or may
not need to truly be availablein Braille but it needs to be
made available in a usableelectronic form. If you do that,
and If you do that, for everyonewho's going to be at the
(05:02):
meeting, think of how much moretime you can truly spend
discussing the issues of themeeting, rather than people just
spending all their time readingit. And, in general, there is so
much that we could do to makeinformation more accessible
ahead of time. I've been to somany speeches, where people do
(05:24):
these great glorious PowerPointpresentations. And the speaker
is off talking, whatever thespeaker is talking about, but
again, what are people doing,they're reading the PowerPoint
presentation, rather than thespeaker talking about the
PowerPoint presentation,bringing in the data that's on
the PowerPoint presentation, ifthey truly need to show it, they
(05:45):
should be talking about it aswell, so that people who don't
see the PowerPoint presentationcan follow it. So the bottom
line is, it takes not a lot ofpreparation. What it takes is a
change in mindset to recognizesome people may not get the
information the way you are. Andoh, by the way, what about
people who are dyslexic peoplewho have dyslexia aren't going
to read that information on thePowerPoint presentation either.
(06:07):
So it really is fair toreconsider how we present
information and meetings orother things that we do with the
company. And to truly make it aninclusive environment. I could
also make the case that if youhire a blind person, for
example, that accompany and youtruly allow them to become part
(06:28):
of the company, the odds areyou're going to have a much more
loyal employee at that companythan you would ever have from
just hiring the average personwho happens to be able to see
who when the next job with ahigher potential salary comes
along, they'll jump ship. For meas a blind person. I appreciate
(06:49):
how hard it was to probably getthat job in the first place. And
I'm not really as likely to gooff and just jump unless
somebody makes me an incredibleoffer. I can't refuse. But I
would also probably bring thatto you and say, look, here's
what's happening. What do we doabout that? The reality is I'm
going to be loyal to the peoplewho are loyal to me a lot more
than most people are. And that'san incredibly valuable asset
(07:12):
that companies don't tend torecognize.
Kim Clark (07:17):
Oh, that was excellent. Thank you so much for
all of those tips, Michael. Alldoable within our power to be
thinking through. Absolutely.
Michael Hingson (07:27):
It's absolutely all doable. It's not magic at
all.
Kim Clark (07:31):
Can we can you talk about you work with
accessibility? Now this is aboutwebsites and making them more
accessible? And so talk throughlike, what do we need to be
looking at and doing around ourwebsites to ensure that they are
more accessible as well.
Michael Hingson (07:48):
The World Wide Web Consortium has created
something called the Web ContentAccessibility Guidelines. Some
companies have adopted them,they adopted them as actual
standards, but places like theUS have not yet done so. But the
guidelines are there and theydefine what having an accessible
website means. It means thingslike when you create a link,
(08:12):
using technology, which any goodcoder knows how to do to make
sure that the links are labeled.So when I come across a link, I
don't hear link, I hear Facebooklink or twitter link or order
link. The the carts areaccessible because they are
appropriately labeled and madeso that anyone can use them.
(08:36):
None of that is really hard todo. The problem is we don't
emphasize it because we don'temphasize disabilities. We still
operate under the premise thatdisability means lack of
ability. We've had no problemtaking the word diversity and
throwing disabilities out ofdiversity. How often do you hear
(08:57):
Hollywood? Or do you hear mostcompanies talking about
diversity, and what they defineas being a diverse population,
gender, race, sexualorientation, some social
attitudes, disabilities aren'tincluded? Because the
presumption is we're still notcapable. And that's why we have
a 70% plus unemployment rateamong employable persons with
(09:18):
disabilities in the UnitedStates. It's not that we can't
work it's people think we can'twork because as I also said,
once before, they've never triedit. The reality is they should
give us the same opportunitiesand the same benefits of the
doubt that they give otherpeople only access a B was
created by three guys whostarted a company in 2015 in
(09:41):
Israel to make websites forcustomers, and they made a whole
slew of websites and they soldthem all and did a great job.
But then 2017 came along inIsrael, legislature said
websites have to be accessible.And these guys are going What do
we do? Above that, they studiedit. They're bright guys, they
(10:03):
were actually in 2019, under theForbes 30, under 30 group, they
were very interested in how dowe make this work. And they
created to start with anartificial, intelligent widget
that is a piece of technologythat sits in the cloud. And they
started selling it to people,it's like $500 a year to get it.
And what it does is it goesthrough and an analyzes your
(10:25):
website. And then what it doesby analyzing it is to say,
here's what I can fix, here'swhat I can fix, and it will go
off and fix all the things thatit can. So what we'll put labels
on links, because a Facebooklink is a Facebook link that
people know about, becausethere's something for sighted
people that tell you, it'sFacebook, not necessarily for me
(10:47):
as a blind person. But the link,whatever is in that graphic
defines it as Facebook orTwitter or whatever. And so
excessively looks at that, andit says, It's Facebook link, I'm
gonna put the Facebook label in,and so that when somebody comes
across that link, they'llactually hear it's a Facebook
link, or you get to a link thathas a little arrow at the
(11:10):
bottom, that indicates it's adrop down. And if you click on
that appropriately, it will openthe menu or whatever. But if I
hear that link, unless somebodyhas labeled it appropriately, it
just says link. And if I clickon it, I get a different
response than you do. But whenexcessive B encounters that
link, it says oh, there's thislittle arrow here at the bottom,
(11:31):
it's a drop down, I'm going togo ahead and indicate that it's
a drop down or a menu. And sowhen I come across a link after
excessive BS running on awebsite, and it has that little
arrow at the bottom, it says tome like products menu, and if I
click on it, the menu opens upjust like it does for you. None
(11:54):
of the coding is complex,really. But it still is
something that only happens whenpeople are aware and take the
time to do something about it.The problem is, especially on
smaller websites, to hiresomebody to do well, that could
cost 1000s of dollars. Andthat's why as I said excessively
is only a few $100. And it's afew $100 a year, because once
(12:17):
you've done what you can withthe widget, the AI widget to
make the website accessible, itwill continue to monitor the
website. And anytime you makechanges, and so on, it will fix
whatever comes along that it canto continue to provide
accessibility for the thingsthat it doesn't do with the AI
widget, such as pictures ofpeople and complex graphs and so
(12:39):
on depending on the site, whatit will do is to tell you what
it can't do. And then you eithercan get a coder to fix it a
programmer or accessibly has theservices to do that. So the
bottom line is access a B todaymakes inclusion available for a
variety of disabilities, thereare some that it still doesn't
do directly with the widget. Sofor example, if you have a
(13:02):
website with a bunch of videos,you can't use artificial
intelligence to put in audiodescriptions. So I know what's
on those videos. Butaccessibilities service staff
under a product called Accessflow can help do that. They can
remediate and make PDF documentsthat are otherwise inaccessible,
accessible. So excessively cando the full service or they can
(13:26):
provide the widget part. Andthen if you've got other people
that you're using already tomake your website the rest of
the way accessible. Let theartificial intelligent widget do
what it can and your coders havea much less complicated time
making the rest of the siteaccessible. And that's what
accessibility is. If anyonewants to learn about it, they
can go to access a B ACCE SSI, Be.com. And one of the things
(13:49):
that you can do while you'rethere is you can go to the link
that says Find out howaccessible your website is, you
plug in your website, and itwill tell you how accessible it
is or it isn't. And then you candecide how you want to address
that from there. But today, theDepartment of Justice has said
that the internet is a place ofreasonable accommodations. So
(14:10):
the bottom line is people needto make their websites
accessible, there is no excusefor not doing it. And do it for
the right reason. Yeah, you canbe sued. That can happen.
Lawyers are always looking formoney. But here's the real
reason to do it. The NielsenCompany, you know, the Nielsen
ratings, people did a survey in2016. And what they found in the
(14:33):
2016 survey was that personswith disabilities tend to be
incredibly much more brand loyalto websites and to brands that
they can use. In other words, ifI go to a website, and I can use
it, I'm not going to goelsewhere to do shopping unless
it really doesn't have on thatsite, the product that I want.
(14:54):
I'm going to go to where I canuse the site rather than having
a lot of complicated things. Andso If you make your website
truly usable for persons withdisabilities, using the numbers
from the Center for DiseaseControl, you are making your
website available to 25% morepeople than you ever would have
had access to before. And whenyou want to do that, get all
(15:14):
that extra business, I would.
Kim Clark (15:18):
Thank you that I'm sitting here nodding a lot,
because I don't want tointerrupt you audibly. But just
know that I, I just reallyappreciate everything that you
said. And you're right. There'sjust no excuses. Absolutely no
excuses.
Michael Hingson (15:34):
There is no excuse. Today, it's a lack of
education, and there shouldn'tbe a lack of education. And all
the capabilities are there, ifwe would do it.
Kim Clark (15:44):
And that's a big part of what we do as conscious
communicators is being veryintentional. You know, and being
conscious about our differentchannels and how accessible they
are. Let me ask you a couple ofquestions around social media
and storytelling. First, I'llstart with social media. So as
something that while you weretalking about the websites, I
(16:05):
think about hashtags. And Ithink about images that people
post, that there are now likemajor social media platforms
that invite someone to do an alttag within the image. Can you
walk through the importance ofthat, as well as with hashtags
(16:26):
I've been told if there'smultiple words and a hashtag to
have a capital letter at thebeginning of each word. So it
can be read by screen readers.And so I just want to double
check that with you. Is thataccurate? And and what are some
tips around social media poststhat we can make more
accessible?
Michael Hingson (16:46):
Well, if you have a hashtag like hashtag Elmo
Schwartz? Yeah, you're gonnaprobably capitalize Elmo and
Schwartz. So let's say you havea hashtag like, runner in
Sherwood Forest. Well,Sherwood's capitalized, but
anyway, I don't know that it hasto be capitalized, it certainly
(17:06):
would, would help define theword if there's, if there's,
well, I guess the issue reallyis if you've got several words
in, you don't with a hashtag,you don't put a space between
them. Right? Right. And so like,so that's why you put the
capital letters so that thesystem the person will hear
hashtag running down the street,you capitalize the AR, the D,
(17:31):
the T and the s. And it will bea lot easier for person to hear
hashtag running down the street,then right on the street, and
it's all combined together, andit tries to treat it as one
separate word. So that's thereason for doing it. It isn't
it's a clarity issue. So itmakes sense to put a capital
letter in at the beginning ofeach word, since they're all
(17:56):
connected together, and there'sno space, the idea behind all
tags, and so on. Those are thekinds of things that create the
labels, so that I understandwhat a picture shows. And when
there is an opportunity to putthose tags in people should do
it. What's really unfortunate isyou've got companies like
(18:16):
WordPress, WordPress creates,through its technology, hundreds
1000s or 10s of 1000s ofwebsites inexpensively. What it
does not do is have any facilityrequiring that those websites be
accessible. If WordPress wouldright from the outset, as a
(18:40):
person who is designing awebsite using WordPress tools,
insist that accessibility has tobe included and guide someone
through that process likeeverything else, then all those
websites would be accessible.Well, WordPress doesn't do that.
Apple made their iPhoneaccessible, they were gonna get
sued, but they did it. They madethe apple the iPhone, the iPod,
(19:02):
now the poor late iPod, theMacBook Pro, well, all MacBooks
and other technologies, iTunes Uand so on, they've made
accessible. And they've done agood job with it. I can go to
any store by any iPhone. And itwill allow me if I'm the first
(19:26):
person to turn it on, to be ableto invoke accessibility right
from the outset. So I can thenuse it. I can always do it
later. But it's great when I cando it myself right from the
outset. Microsoft has done that.And I know Dell has done that
with some of their computersystems. I bought one a few
years ago a Dell system. And Ididn't even realize it. And when
(19:46):
I turned it on, it startedtalking to me and it says do you
want accessibility? I went, Oh,that's great. But here's the
problem even with Apple. Theydon't do a single solitary thing
to require that Apple appdeveloper burrs include
accessibility. So I can have anapp that works one day and it's
totally inaccessible the nextday with the next update. And no
(20:08):
matter what guidelines andinformation Apple provides,
there's no requirement to dothat. Apple with the Apple
police that deal with every appthat comes through their store
have any number of differentthings that they require. And
they could require that level ofaccessibility of some sort to be
in every app, and they don't dothat. So there's a long way to
(20:30):
go. And there's no doubt thatthe best way to deal with access
is to make it native right fromthe outset, whether it be for me
as a blind person, whether it beusing different kinds of
technologies, and emphasizingwords for a person with
dyslexia, or ADHD, whether it besomething where it gives a
person the ability to turn offthe requirement to use a mouse
(20:52):
to highlight something, butrather use a keyboard, any
number of things, all those areoptions. And the the
manufacturers of thetechnologies and so on couldn't
make that stuff available, ifthey would, but they don't. So
today, for example, there can bea Windows Update, that will
suddenly cause my screen readernot to talk properly, because
(21:14):
Windows made a change in thescreen reader manufacturer has
to catch up rather than Windowsdealing with it from the outset.
So there's a lot that needs tobe done even by the bigger
organizations.
Kim Clark (21:28):
Designing the DEI from the beginning, that's
really the call to action. Inspecifically,
Michael Hingson (21:36):
it's true inclusion right from the outset.
Kim Clark (21:38):
Yeah, absolutely. Just embedded through the
process across the organization.All right. Now, something that a
lot of us communicators do is alot of storytelling. And one
thing that I want to make surethat us as conscious
communicators do is to make surethat we're not participating in
(21:59):
any kind of performativestorytelling around the
community of you know, peoplewith disabilities, how do we
make sure that our storytellingis truly authentic, and helpful?
Encouraging transformation andencouraging visibility, and
calls to action? In advocacy forpeople with disabilities to
(22:23):
ensure that we're not, you know,that we're not performative? In
our storytelling? What kind oftips do you
Michael Hingson (22:31):
have stories, like a long time ago, when a
galaxy far far? Look, the bestthing to do? There are
organizations of persons withdisabilities and one thing to do
is to go to some of thoseorganizations like the National
Federation of the Blind. And andto talk with them or to if you
(22:55):
know, someone who has aparticular disability, you can
you can always go talk withthem. But if you want to look
for trends, I would I woulddefinitely suggest going to
consumer organizations. Sohere's a great example. If you
talk to a person who is deaf, orwho doesn't hear well, how do
you describe those people?
Kim Clark (23:17):
I'm now asking you. Well, since I write inclusive
communications guides, I cankind of cheat and say that I've
had people who are definitelyreview those sections, and what
did
Michael Hingson (23:29):
they and what did they say that you should
describe them as,
Kim Clark (23:33):
as deaf? Or? Hard of Hearing?
Michael Hingson (23:39):
Exactly. Now, why not hearing impaired? Why is
it deaf or hard of hearing? Andnot deaf or hearing impaired?
Kim Clark (23:52):
Well, I know that there's a lot of stigma that has
been perpetuated as far as toyour earlier point of still of
being incapable or lesser than.And so we're censoring the
person. And some are choosingidentity first. But in general,
(24:13):
especially those of us whoaren't part of that population,
my understanding and pleasecorrect me if I'm wrong, that
the community wishes to bepeople first. If we're talking
at it from a general sense,
Michael Hingson (24:25):
well, but the preference is deaf or hard of
hearing, deaf or hard ofhearing, but not deaf or hearing
impaired. Because hearingimpaired does create such a
stigma is such a negative thing.You're now comparing a person
who doesn't hear well, to aperson who hears well, your
(24:45):
hearing impaired as opposed tohard of hearing and I know many
politicians who might score wellon an audio test but they
certainly are not able to hearvery well but we won't go there.
But in the Why in this world,for example, because of all of
the professionals in the worldstill, we're referred to as
(25:06):
blind or visually impaired.There are two problems with
visually impaired one. Visually,I'm not different if I happen to
be blind. Why do people saythat? Because you're, you're
visually impaired because you'reblind. So you don't, you clearly
don't look the same. It's not avisual thing at all. And then
the whole concept also ofimpaired, why is it that we have
(25:30):
such a hard time getting peopleto say, blind or low vision,
just like we talked about deafor hard of hearing, the stigmas
are still there. Even years ago,the Gallup polling organization
did a number of surveys aboutpeople's fears. One of the top
five fears up until the 2000s.And a little after one of those
(25:56):
top five fears was blindnesswasn't even disabilities, it was
blindness. Because as a society,we emphasize eyesight so much,
and all of the professionals inthe field, the educators and
everyone else, all of the socalled experts call us blind or
visually impaired, and they theyhave they have created the
(26:16):
problem. And we do need tochange it. It's not impaired.
And it's the same, I think, forvirtually any disability, you
can come up with terms that takethe stigma out of it. My wife
was a wheelchair user for herwhole life, mobility impaired,
(26:38):
she would react to that andobject to that wheelchair user
different story, right. And thereality is, you can't put
everybody in the same bucket. Sothe issue is the best way to
deal with storytelling and so onis to just ask. And like I said,
the organizations of personswith disabilities will probably
(27:01):
be the source that will give youthe most inclusive answer. If
you ask any individual I knowany number of blind people who
say, Well, I'm visuallyimpaired, what are you talking
about? You're wrong? No, you'renot visually impaired. You say
you are because you're used tothat, but you're not impaired.
Your lack of eyesight doesn'tmake you less than anyone else.
(27:23):
Your lack of eyesight means thatyou'll do things in a different
way. But it doesn't mean you'reimpaired. And that's what we
have to deal with. And I gaveyou that example. Because just
two months ago, I was doing aspeech at a school system in
Northern California, and therewas a blind woman who attended
virtually. And she called me outon visual impairment. She said,
(27:45):
I'm visually impaired and Isaid, No, you're not, you're
blind, or you're low vision, butyou're not impaired. And it was
like pulling teeth to get her toeven start to think about the
fact that maybe saying impairedwas something that had such a
horrible negative connotation.We need to get away from it.
Kim Clark (28:05):
I love this conversation. Thank you. Thank
you. And that makes me come.That makes me think of one more
question for you, Michael. Inthe Diversity, Equity and
Inclusion space, oftentimes, theterm blind spots come up when
it's talking about unconsciousbias or microaggressions. I
don't know what I don't know, Ihave blind spots, or those kinds
(28:30):
of terms, you know, somethingthat we need to be changing in
our vernacular,
Michael Hingson (28:35):
I think that's going a little too far. It
doesn't bother me. And it's,it's true. I mean, you have
spots that you don't see in carshave blind spots, for example.
We can carry it to suchextremes. And I don't think that
we need to, to deal with that.As long as we understand what it
(28:56):
is we're talking about. And weall do have blind spots of one
sort or another. It's okay, Iwatch television, by the way, I
watch movies, the dictionarydefines to see as to perceive,
at least that's one of thedefinitions. So I don't see a
need to object to something likeblind spot. Oh, I'm sure there
are some who do. But I thinkyou're carrying it too far when
(29:18):
you go that way. So blind spotdoesn't denigrate me. It
describes a specific situation.And it makes perfect sense. I am
blind, someone who can't see outof what can't see what's behind
them in their car or on the sideof their car because they don't
(29:40):
have cameras as a blind spot.They can't see there. Why worry
about it. I think there are alot more horrible things to
worry about it in the world thanthat.
Kim Clark (29:51):
Well, we definitely want to make sure a lot of
conscious communicators say wedon't want to, you know,
unintentionally offend anyone,right and sure, you're talking
about
Michael Hingson (30:00):
But but think about what you're doing. And I'm
sure that you will find peoplewho would object to blind spot.
But I think that the reality is,the vast majority of us
recognize what that term is. Andit doesn't denigrate us. You
turn a blind eye to something.Justice is blind, should we not
use those? I think that I'm notsure justice isn't, is blind.
(30:25):
But that's, you know, anotherstory. Perhaps it should be, but
it's not. But blindness isn'tthe problem. It's our
perceptions of it. And so, weneed to recognize that we can
carry things to too manyextremes, too.
Kim Clark (30:43):
Hmm. I think you're one of the points that you made
earlier about this is somethingthat's included in the inclusive
communication guides that I dofor clients is that one of the
first of the checklist is tosay, does it demean people,
human beings?
Michael Hingson (31:01):
Yeah. Does blind spot demean anybody?
Kim Clark (31:07):
Yeah, I don't think so. Right. Exactly. I'm but if
we were to use the phrase,actually, yeah. What are you
blind? You know, that's a
Michael Hingson (31:16):
different story. Right? And of course, if
somebody says that to me, theanswer is going to be Yeah. And
you. What are you stupid?
Kim Clark (31:25):
Right, understood. So I have one more question for
you. I have been on a number ofwebinars is I'm a perpetual
students. And I listen to avariety of people from a variety
of backgrounds and experiencesthat I don't personally have
intentionally. It's, it's partof my work, right. And something
that I have seen is a, somepeople will start off these
(31:49):
webinars, saying, Hi, I'm KenClark. And they will describe
what they look like, whatthey're wearing the colors, the
color of their hair color. Andso I wanted to get your feedback
on that. What do you think aboutthat? Should that be an ongoing
practice?
Michael Hingson (32:04):
Personally, I don't need it. I've never seen
colors. So if you tell me you'reblonde, doesn't mean a thing to
be. I think, again, we can carrythings to extremes. Somebody
decided to start that practice.And I know some people like to
(32:24):
hear it. And typically, it'speople probably who have had
some eyesight. And so it equatesto them. I don't know that
that's totally true. But I knowfor me, personally, I don't need
the description. I'm going tolearn about you by talking with
you, and getting to know theperson and a lot about you. And
(32:45):
if we're in the same room andtalking together, I'll figure
out how tall you are when Istand near you and talk to you
and so on. Do I really needthose descriptions, it doesn't
add a lot of value to me. So Idon't particularly need it to
happen. Again. I'm sure thereare people who do and they're
getting used to it. But for me,I don't need that.
Kim Clark (33:08):
Michael, anything else that you would like to
advise us as communicators andcontent creators to make things
more accessible?
Michael Hingson (33:16):
I think the most important thing is to make
sure that you seek out makingthings inclusive, and that you
ask the questions. I'm glad tobe a resource any way I can for
any of your people who wholisten to this. They're always
welcome to reach out to me.Emails real easy, Mike, Michael
(33:38):
hingson, mi ch AE l h i n g s on.com. And I know you're gonna
put all this up, but people arewelcome to reach out. And I'm
glad to help any way that I can.I think it's mostly common
sense. And just don't think thatwe're less than anybody else,
just because we're different.
Kim Clark (33:56):
Thank you, Michael. This has been an incredible
conversation and so helpful. Ireally appreciate knowing you.
And I really appreciate yourtime today. Thank you.
Michael Hingson (34:07):
And next time we get to talk to you and
interview you on unstoppablemindset. So everybody stay tuned
for that.
Kim Clark (34:14):
Absolutely. I'm really looking forward to
Michael Hingson (34:16):
and if any of you have any questions that you
want me to pin down Kim with youdoes let me know. He's gonna
edit this out. I bet but oh, thechair
Kim Clark (34:25):
is swinging. All right, Michael, thanks for your
time.
Michael Hingson (34:29):
My pleasure. Thank you, Kim.
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