August 29, 2023 • 48 mins
On this episode of Communicate Like You Give A Damn, Kim Clark is joined by Organizational Psychologist, Angela Howard. Throughout this insightful episode, Angela and Kim delve into the realm of culture transformation while taking us on a journey to understand the intricate workings of how organizational culture shapes and molds our workplaces. Not only do they explore the connections between an organization’s stated values vs their actions, but also shed light on the challenge of how this alignment influences an organization’s communication strategies. They also break down the role of an organizational psychologist, the necessity of leadership remodeling and how communicators are the co-creators of workplace culture all while unpacking how powerful the tool of language is in shaping culture.
About The Guest:
Angela R. Howard is a former CPO/CHRO, Organizational Psychologist and the CEO of Call for Culture - an organization that applies psychology, anthropology, and sociology to the science of culture development and change. Her mission is to help transform companies into environments where employees can deploy their contributions for positive organizational outcomes and social impact. Her podcast, Social Responsibility at Work, interviews change makers who are actively creating solutions for this mission.
Find Angela Here:
About Kim:
Kim Clark (she/her) focuses her work on the communicator and content creator's role in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). She is the co-author of The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid sh*t, an Amazon #1 bestseller and the leading voice for DEI communications and social justice messaging for brands.
She speaks at conferences, writes custom workshops, writes inclusive communications guides, and consults with companies on all things related to diversity, equity, and inclusion communications. Kim is a member of the LGBTQ+ community, a cisgender woman, Native American (Muscogee Nation) and a mom of two kids with disabilities. These marginalized identities and the privileges that come with society seeing her as White motivate her daily for social change.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Kim Clark (00:00):
Hello, hello, welcome back. I'm so pleased to be here
(00:04):
with Angela, Howard Angela and Igot connected What was it like a
year or so maybe a little bitmore, then we just hit it off
the first time we met. We'relike, there's so much synergy
between our work but also ourinterests or passions.
Unknown (00:21):
And I'm super fascinated by your path of how
you got into diversity andequity inclusion work. So why
don't you introduce yourself?And then I've got like, a ton of
questions for you. Yeah. Well,Kim, thank you so much for
having me. First of all, it wasa pleasure having you on the
podcast about my podcast. So thetables have turned, it's a
(00:43):
beautiful thing to be on theother side. So thank you for
that. Hi, everyone. My name isAngela Howard. I am an
organizational psychologist andthe CEO of a company called call
for culture. And, you know, wefocus on cultural transformation
work. And what does that mean?Because I think we're throwing
(01:03):
the word culture around a lotlately. And really, what we're
focused on is how do you matchorganizations words with their
actions, and ultimatelyconnecting that back to their
value system? So from abehavioral perspective, how are
we shifting and transformingorganizations? And so that's a
little bit about me. Now, that'swhat makes us so awesome as
(01:25):
partners, because you know, Ioften say, language leads to
behavior. So I got the language,I got the communications, you've
got the culture, you've got thebehavior. I love it, just like
two peas in a pod our work? Ilove that. Exactly, exactly. So
what tell me more about what anorganizational psychologist does
(01:48):
and what that background is? Andhow do you apply that to your
work?
Yeah, so you know, I always liketo say, you know, IO
psychologist, so the technicalterm for my degree is industrial
organizational psychology. Ithink it's becoming more and
more prominent, but we do have abranding problem. So I think
(02:09):
someone in communication shouldwork on that. I'm automatically
thinking of grease and machines.Yeah, exactly a horrible
branding problem. But really,you know, this work started
during the IndustrialRevolution, where quite
honestly, it was like, you know,how do we most effectively get
the most out of people? Youknow? And of course, that's not
(02:30):
the work we do today, it'sevolved more to, you know, How
do humans actually behave withinthe workplace? How do we think
about organizations asmicrocosms of society, and
almost like a study ofanthropology, right. But we're
using data and science to makedecisions around around people
(02:50):
within organizations, and how tonot just get the most out of
them, but also to work with thehuman condition and how humans
thrive within the workplace.Okay, all right. So you were
defining culture earlier?
Often, there's, there's anacknowledgement of the formal
(03:12):
side of culture, and then theinformal side of culture. So
when you're working withclients, and if you have any
kind of stories, you know, talkabout certain clients
situations, how do you help themunderstand the influence of
culture, especially towardsdiversity, equity and inclusion
goals for an organization?
(03:34):
Yeah, so I think a lot of times,we have misconceptions around
what culture is, you know, thisconnects back to my academic
background, because in IOpsychology, we talk a lot about
the organization as a system,and how the different pieces
work together to drive behaviorand action and change. And so
(03:56):
when it comes to culture, youknow, culture is really just a
culmination of rituals, beliefs,habits, things that happen
almost like below the surface,it's things you can't quite, you
can't always name or put yourfinger on, but they've evolved
over time to a point where itjust is. And a lot of times this
(04:16):
gets in the way of change.Because if you think about a
founder who's built a company,and it's 100 years old, you can
you can see how those traditionsand rituals have evolved over
time to just stick right andnobody questions them. Nobody
says anything. But what a lot oforganizations don't do is they
don't audit that connected backto their value system. So we
(04:40):
work with organizations to say,Okay, well, you have these
beautiful core values, right?These are core values that maybe
weren't developed even 100 yearsago. They haven't changed with
the times or even, you know,broader culture and society, so
maybe we should relook at them.And let's really talk about what
are the behavioral proof points
So that tells us that we'redoing these things. And I think
(05:03):
a lot of organizations do agreat job of putting the
beautiful words on a webpage ora wall, but they don't actually
define the behaviors. So I'mtalking about inclusion, you're
talking about inclusion fromcompletely different mental
models.
I think that's really veryimportant to understand is we
may be throwing around theseterms, but it doesn't mean I
(05:24):
understand them. It doesn't meanthat you know, I mean, the same
thing, and it doesn'tnecessarily mean that I know
what it looks like when it'shappening. Another challenge
that we have as deicommunicators is that we focus
and rely on the terms diversity,equity and inclusion as kind of
safeguards that people get it.And people understand that's not
(05:47):
the case. So I'm challenging alot of my clients to say, what
are the outcomes of diversitythat we're seeking? What are the
outcomes of equity andinclusion? Are we seeking so
it's, it's more of like, usethose words. And that will reach
more people who are triggered bythe words by the phrases? And
(06:07):
you know, and words, dei, forsure. But sometimes, I think,
no, I know, that us ascommunicators need to go below
the surface to understand whatdiversity equity inclusion
actually is, because we usethese terms to kind of hide
behind, and we don't go deeperinto what they actually meet. So
(06:33):
you know, people who are kind ofnew to D, I R feel like it's
being pressed upon them. I thinkone of the things they don't
they that we've not done a goodjob as di communicators, to do
for these folks is to help themunderstand the DEI exists in
culture, wherever there'speople, there's a culture that's
(06:54):
created, co created. And whatwe're seeing is kind of the
shadow side of Dei, because it'swild, wild west, it's not
intentional, it's not strategic,you know, it's not informed. And
that's what all we're trying todo is to get to just like really
honing in on a product, or on aservice and truly understanding
(07:16):
what it is knowing how tomeasure it and understanding the
benefits of this product to ourcompany. It's really
understanding and getting belowthat surface. So we don't just
hide, hide behind these terms.So can you talk a little bit
more about how culture can beunbridled that it will happen
with or without us. But as weget more intentional with CO
(07:40):
creating culture, towards theseoutcomes, that diversity, equity
and inclusion, are trying todrive us towards and promise us?
Yeah, so the best analogy I canthink of, for this to kind of
lose us a little bit ofstorytelling here is a garden.
And I use this often when whenit comes to culture, because
(08:01):
first of all, what happens whenyou don't tend to a garden? You
get weeds, right? So culture isonly my backyard right now.
Exactly, say mine too. So ifyou're thinking about culture,
as it's something you certainlyneed to curate in your mind, but
you also have to do things. Youcan't just speak it and make it
(08:22):
so so I can't just say you knowwhat, this bed of flowers is
going to be a beautiful bed ofdaisies, you actually have to,
you know, dig in the dirt,you've got to pull the weeds,
you have to constantly tend tothe culture of your
organization. And I thinksometimes, as leaders we we have
these programs, right? Wedevelop these programs that have
(08:44):
a start date and an end date.And well intended, maybe a
little performative becauseculture is something you're
being much more kind than I am
Yes, I'm I'm slicing and dicingmy words a little bit here but
But truly, you know, you have to
you have to nurture culture, youhave to understand what the
(09:07):
layout of it you know, if wethink about the garden again,
the the daisies go there, thethe roses go there, we want to
make sure the weeds are pulled,you know, the weeds are about
the best analogy for people areleaders who are actually doing
the opposite of what you wantwithin your culture. So I think
sometimes we focus so much onadding on, when in reality we
(09:28):
should be deconstructing or eventaking away to get to the
culture that we're looking for.So absolutely, it's absolutely
something you have to attend toconstantly. And really, you need
an anchor for that. And we, youknow, our philosophy a call for
culture is that your valuesystems translated into those
behavioral proof points is youranchor. And that should be
(09:52):
something that's baked intoeverything you do, how you hire,
how you develop, how youevaluate how you hold people
accountable.
What your policies and processeslook like how your employment
value proposition shows up howyour brand value shows up, it
should be baked into everythingthat you do as an organization.
(10:13):
And planting those seeds. So ifwe're, if we're planting seeds
of roses, don't be really pissedoff. If it comes out as roses
when you actually want it tolips, you can't be mad at the
seeds. It's like, what did youtake a look around? If there's a
whole bunch of apple trees? Andyou're like, where's the
variety? Well, it's becausewe've been planting apples this
(10:33):
whole time. So there's thatthat's where we're coming from
and being strategic andintentional. And saying, if we
want a wide variety of fruit inour orchard, that's what we have
to plant and nurture to yourpoint. So let's get into
language. So what role doeslanguage have when it comes to
(10:53):
shaping culture? And,
you know, you know, and justcommunications in general?
Yeah, so gosh, I have so manythoughts on this. The first
thought is, you know, I like tothink about language as there's,
there's equity in it. So
what I mean by that is, youknow, when I start working with
(11:16):
an organization, I spent a lotof time pretty much the first
month learning the language ofthe organization, because back
to that point around inclusion,what I'm saying and you're
saying may be two completelydifferent things, we may be
using different words, butmeaning the same thing as well.
So we spent a lot of time justfrom our and this is where the
(11:36):
anthropology comes in.
Observing and understanding whenwe talk about culture, what are
we actually talking about?You're saying one thing, but
meaning another, or yourbehavior and your actions are
mismatch? Why is that? Solanguage, I think, has some
brand equity in it. And it'simportant to sometimes meet
(11:58):
people where they are. That'sthe first piece is, I may be
saying one thing and usingdifferent language, we may be
talking about the same thing. SoI think language can connect
people and create understanding.The second thing is that
language sends a signal. So ifwe're using language that makes
me feel less than celebrated, ifwe're using language that
(12:23):
excludes people, because nobodyknows what it means, that is a
tool for exclusion within anorganization. And then thirdly,
you know, I think language isjust something that again, from
an anthro anthropologyperspective, it, it's more of
that broader sea culture, right,I think of like workplace
(12:44):
culture as a lowercase c, andthen you're working with the,
the broader uppercase C languageis how we
used, you know, information andshare information and tell
people how we're feeling howwe're doing. And then hearing
things over and over, again, Ithink are really important for
things to stick from a culturalperspective. So that was a lot,
(13:06):
because I saw this question. AndI'm like, Oh, my gosh, there's
so many implications aroundlanguage. So so much. Yeah. And
I know you're a proponent ofinclusive language and gender
neutral language, and reallyhelping clients understand what
is inclusive language, what isthat language that we can use to
create this culture that yourvalues are asking you to create?
(13:30):
I do a lot of we're recordingthis during pride month in June,
and I do a lot of talks aboutpride and tell my own personal,
you know, coming out story, etc.And one of the things that I
always want to share is thisidea of an inclusion agreement
where in order to create awelcoming environment, one of
(13:51):
the things that I sniff out as agay woman is are you making
jokes about the gay community?Are you you know, saying Love is
love but doing a differentthing? Like you said, like, do
you make fun of pronouns? Do younot have your pronouns on your
email signature? So there's,there's a signifiers that people
(14:11):
within the community will lookfor to see if they're safe in
your environment. And I'mreminded of a story I was told
by my mentor who said that it'sa great story it's of a kid and
you know, a bunch of kids inkindergarten the and the
question was asked, what islove? You know, so you're
talking about these differentways that definitions can come
(14:34):
out. And so one kid says, Loveis my name safe in your mouth?
Oh, that's power I name is safein your mouth. And so if we
think about that in a workplace,like is my name is My identity
is who I am safe in your mouth,whether I'm in the room or not,
(14:55):
and whether you know me or not,so whether I ever meet
You are not so in your family,in your co workers, the the team
that you may manage or thecompany you may lead or how you
vote or where you spend anddonate your money, is my name is
My identity is my humanity safewith you? So I really think it's
(15:21):
important for folks tounderstand, you know, the role
that language leading tobehavior and CO creating this
culture is these are things thatwe're looking for,
you know, we're looking forwords and phrases, or their
jokes or the way are people notstopping jokes. And then I know
that I'm not safe in thisenvironment. And then I know who
(15:44):
to trust and who not to trust.And so in one of those early
signifiers, is people who usetheir pronouns, for example,
that I know that at least,they're aware enough and care
enough to extend that signifierto folks in the community.
You work with a variety ofcompanies, and they're all over
(16:04):
the place from just gettingstarted or may have been working
on di and various forms over thelast two decades, right. So I'm
super interested in what in thisday and time where we're
experiencing right now,basically, a dei backlash from
three years ago, the summer of2020, where there was this
thrust forward, where there wasthis requirement that we need to
(16:28):
start talking about racism,sexism,
ableism, heteronormativity, etc,we have to talk about it, but we
all suck at talking about it,especially in a work
environment, we have terrible orno role models for this. But now
there's this pushback, which isa signifier of progress being a
(16:49):
spiral, it's not linear, it's aspiral. So we're circling
around, which means we're goingto come around the bend very
soon, and there's going to bethis momentum going forward,
which is what listeners of thispodcast are looking for is how
to be a part of that movement,that continued forward movement
of inclusivity in the workplace,as well as in society in
(17:10):
general. So what are some ofthe, like the top three
challenges that you're seeingyour clients and organizations
going through as they do thiswork? In the midst of this kind
of, you know, should show
a lot of organizations are areexperiencing right now this?
This, this identity crisis?Yeah, yeah, it's, um, it's so
(17:36):
interesting to watch, because Ithink
I'm seeing one of two things,either people are really
doubling down on their valuesaround this. So they're saying
it's even more important than itwas before?
And those are the people we wantto work with. Right? Yeah,
that's one thing that I've I'velearned in this work is that
(17:57):
I would love to be able tochange minds. And that is a part
of our influence ascommunicators, and as
changemakers. And I don't wantto enter an organization and
waste your money or my money, ifthis is something you're not
committed to do. So it is thisfine balance. Or two, there's
(18:17):
people who are doubling down onthe other side and saying, you
know, what, we're just going tofocus on customer
centric operations, we're goingto focus on things that, you
know, in the short term driveprofit, and aren't really a part
of the sustainabilityconversation. My theory is those
companies are going to fail.Yes, we'll see them in a year or
(18:40):
two, when they it's going to bemore expensive to fix. I'm right
there with you. Exactly. So Ithink what the big themes that
I'm finding, as we're, you know,because we go through an
assessment process, we do kindof a reality check with
organizations, we audit theirvalue system, this is all part
of our process. And at the endof the process, when we're
(19:01):
presenting the results to them,the one thing that comes up
every single time is leadership,role modeling,
is a lack of reality settingaround how the executive team or
the top level leaders areactually
exemplifying operationalizingthe values in their day to day
(19:22):
behavior. There's usually arealization that there's
somebody at the top, who iscounter culture to what we're
looking to build. And there'susually a lot of hard decisions
that need to be made. You know,I work with some companies where
the CEO had lack of visibilitythat they had a problematic
leader within the organizationand through our process, they
(19:44):
realized oh,
one bad player in this is goingto destruct our entire culture
and I will say that, you know,your culture is your worst
behavior at your organization.When I tell that to leaders, it
kind of clicks for them like,Oh, this is this is
A question of integrity. I getit. It's not just about a bunch
of activity. It's also about myintegrity as a leader, as a CEO
(20:09):
as a founder. And they quicklystarted to, and legacy.
Absolutely. So that's a big ahamoment. And you know, there's
some people, there's someleaders who really are focused
on that legacy. And there's somewho just don't get that. And so
it's kind of a coachingopportunity throughout our time
together to help them understandhow this is impacting their
(20:31):
culture, how some of this ismore lagging indicators versus
leading indicators. But I dobelieve, you know, we can pretty
quickly understand if thecommitment is, is there upfront,
pretty early on, or if it'sperformative. And I will say
there, there seems to be a splitof those two things, and we try
to lean towards those companieswho are committed to the work.
(20:52):
Yeah, absolutely. That's whyI've changed how I describe the
kind of work that I do is that Iwork with folks, primarily
communicators, and leaders whoare serious about learning and
applying diversity, equity andinclusion to their
communications on a daily basis.
You know, so yeah, I am rightthere with you. You know, and
(21:13):
some people may have thatintention, you were talking
about that good intention, well,intentions. They think that
they're serious about the work.But as I have found and why I,
you know, reached out to JanetStovall, to co author a book
with me on consciouscommunications in general, is
that I find that a lot ofcommunicators and leaders in
(21:34):
particular, don't understandwhat the work is, they meant
what they put up in the summerof 2020, and the tweets, but
they didn't really understandwhat the work is that's behind
it. So yes, there's a lot of usdi practitioners that we're not
going to participate inperformative work with clients,
because that gives an excuse toleaders to say, see, it doesn't
(21:55):
work. Yes, when it's not ourwork that failed, right? It
could be just mostly aneducation of understanding what
the work actually is, and justcoming to that agreement up
front, to truly understand arelike in are you in, and we'll
take you where you are? Well,we'll take we'll move you where
(22:16):
you from where you are, youdon't have to go zero to 60. But
you know, and there's this wholeamount of work that I'm sure
that you see, when you're makingrecommendations and do your
roadmap is sometimes to yourpoint, it's not always adding
new things. Sometimes it's justreducing harm that makes the
most
right off the top. Let's let'sstart there.
(22:39):
I would totally agree. And Ithink, you know, I've, and this
is why we've become really clearup front when we work with
clients is we just want to beclear, you are doing the work,
we are guiding you because ourgoal is to work ourselves out of
a job. We want this to besustainable. You don't want to
lean on us for a decade, youknow, like that's not smart or
(23:01):
conscious. And too, I think, youknow, a lot of times we work
with clients and not so much nowbecause we've we've we've
smartened up in the process, butyou know, you get to that end
point. And they see the results,and they're like, Oh, well not
like that we didn't we didn'twant you to tell us that like we
(23:21):
wanted you, we wanted you totell us what kind of training we
need, or you know what kind oflike,
monthly DNI programs we shouldimplement. Just like when you
hire the wrong person, I am sosorry, we were misaligned.
Because that's not work that'sgoing to impact anything. It's
throwing spaghetti at the walland seeing what sticks.
(23:42):
So yeah, I totally with you. Youknow, there's a Harvard Business
Journal research that Iconstantly share that talks
about it's it's it's a datacollected over 1000 Different
companies, globally, actually.And these are all organizations
(24:03):
that have dei strategies. And itwas found in this data that 75%
of employees at different partsin levels of the organization,
their daily lives were notimpacted or improved in any way,
shape, or form that is 75%. Soeverything's staying at the top
(24:25):
with the awesome branding, andthe cool infographics. And there
might be employee resourcegroups, but are they empowered?
You know, to actually do a work?Do they have a business value?
Do they have a cultural value?Are they supported in a way that
actually has meaningful changeand proved impact to you know,
(24:48):
folks, his experience of theworkplace culture, so there's a
lot of education that has to goaround. There's a lot of
paradigms that we need to let goof. And Rediff
notions of what this workactually looks like. So when
you're working with a client,are you working with the
communications teams? And if so,what are you needing from them?
(25:12):
What are you telling them? Thatis their work to do as part of
the successful outcomes of Di?
Yeah, so like you said before,we work with organizations that
all have all sizes, andsometimes we're working with
organizations that don't have acommunication team. So one of
the key parts of our process isall around messaging. And so if
(25:36):
there is a communications team,we work hand in hand with them
to align messaging to alignmodalities of messaging, the
content around that messaging,to the initiative, but also to
the sustainability of thatinitiative. So we want to work
within the organizationalstructure of how things are
(25:59):
actually communicate. I thinkthat's kind of the first step.
There's some basics around howdoes that company communicate
today. So we'd like to meet themwhere they are, but we also
challenge them and ask them toget creative on ensuring that we
are inclusively talking toeveryone within the
organization. It's not just anemail that's sent to 500 people
(26:21):
with the same messaging. Youknow, we're also using smaller
containers of conversations andlistening throughout the
process. So we're, you know,sometimes we're coaching the
communications team, because itmight be a more of a traditional
communications team. But youknow, our goal is to create
bilateral methods of listeningand communicating. And we do
(26:45):
that through a variety ofmodalities. But the goal is to
plan that out ahead of time,work that plan, but then also
kind of iterate as we go. And aswe learn things, so we want to
be strategic and intentional aspossible. But with the
flexibility to change as we goand to listen and to iterate.
And communications really shapedthe culture. There's a tone that
(27:08):
set by communications kind ofwords that we use, are we super
jargon heavy or always superstuck on our headquartered
country's colloquialisms? Youknow, so there are all kinds of
ways that communicators reallyneed to step up. I'm a, I'm a
firm believer, I don't know howyou feel about this, Angela is
that de ai efforts cannot besuccessful without
(27:31):
communicators, getting theirhead around this work and
stepping up and trulyunderstanding what it is because
they are co creators and shapersof the workplace culture.
Yes, absolutely. 100%. And, youknow, when I worked as a chro,
before I started my ownbusiness, communications and
(27:51):
marketing, were my two.
Everybody was a partner in away, but they were really close
partners for me.
Especially communications,because those two things are
just so connected, like yousaid,
with your experience as a ChiefHuman Resources Officer.
(28:12):
What's your take on dei beingkind of staged within HR?
Oh, well, I think we're seeingan interesting,
a trend around like what I liketo call kind of this hero and
Cape mentality when it comes toChief people, officers, and also
(28:39):
chief diversity officers whereall of this work around culture
and DNI sits within a person.And I think there's a lack of
understanding that when you whenyou hire a chief people officer
or chief diversity officer orchief HR officer, all the
different, you know, titles wegive heads of
(29:02):
they are facilitators, they areguides. This work needs to work
and be built within the fabricof your organizational culture.
And I almost see it as we're, weshould be working ourselves out
of a job just like we do asconsultants. The diversity team
should also be workingthemselves out of a job. Now, is
(29:23):
that possible? Probably not.It's kind of a meta idea. But
it's the idea that you'rebuilding sustainability within
the organization. So when youplace DNI under HR, for example,
first of all, you're bufferingit and sending a signal that
it's not a strategic culturalfocus of the organization.
You're also sending a signalthat
(29:46):
this department exists, but itexists in a vacuum, and nobody
else should be doing this work.So I think it's detrimental to
be honest to have DNI sit underHR
And then I think it'sdetrimental if organizations are
hiring D and AI experts or headsof thinking that that person is
(30:08):
owning D and I, I love thosepoints. And I and I completely
agree with you, you know,there's an unintentional side of
like, oh, this is where it goes,because there's budget, its
culture, its employees. So we'relike, that demonstrates, we
don't really understand what deiis. So we're gonna put it in HR.
And then there's sometimes anintentional, putting it under
(30:31):
HR, because HR is always thereto protect the company, and you
know, the company first versuspeople first. And it could be
there to kind of box in dei andlimit its scope and impact. But
while looking like we're doingsomething, but it's actually not
(30:51):
meaningful, which is why we'regetting a lot of this
performative and you know, harmmore than good. Sometimes it's
intentional to keep it undercontrol. And some of it is
sometimes it's like, we don'tknow what it really is. So, you
know, it seems like everybodyelse puts it under HR, when in
fact, having its own lane, likethere's it, there's legal,
(31:12):
there's HR, all of those groupsare embedded across the entire
organization. Yes, there'salways a finance person in every
in every department, there'salways it, there's always HR, D
AI is no differentcommunications should not be any
different. There should becommunications across and there
should be di across. So it's,it's again, flipping the script,
(31:36):
and really shifting theparadigms of how we understand
and taking the time, honestly,to truly understand
what the eye is, we keep comingback to that because it's this
ties into the culture like ofour culture, we have, like, how
do you feel about this, Angela,something that I work with, with
(31:56):
communicators is, I challengedthem by saying we have a real
lack of imagination when itcomes to diversity, equity and
inclusion.
And so it's like we just kind oflook around, even as leaders, we
look around and just kind of seewhat is sometimes it's hard for
us to like vision.
Something my mentor says painpushes until vision pulls, we're
(32:20):
in pain.
Pain has been pushing us to doDei, we were in pain in the
summer of 2020, we have we'refeeling a lot of pain, a lot of
people are feeling deeper anddeeper, there's a lot of pain
going on for the LGBTQ pluscommunity right now with over
550, anti, you know, LGBTQ plusbills and the criminalization
(32:42):
of, of people's existence, youknow, so there's a lot of pain
that's that that people areexperiencing. And in some
organizations, that's enough topush them. But we actually have
this tremendous opportunity toshift that momentum and actually
be pulled by vision that takesimagination. How do you do that
(33:03):
with your clients and pullingthem towards this vision of, of
understanding how their cultureand their organization will be
improved? Through this work withyou?
Yeah, it's, it's a multitude ofthings. But I think the first
one is really the reality checkof the gap. As to so what we do
(33:24):
in the beginning with ourclients is we do something
called purpose alignment. Andthat is really like the
development, the memorializationof our value system and those
behavioral proof points, then weassess. And what we typically
hear is, we thought we werehere, but we're actually the gap
is actually this wide, right?Like talking to the people
within the organizations likethe whole the whole executive
(33:46):
team. It's like, yeah, we'reinclusive. We implement all
these equity practices, and theyjust like throw out buzzwords,
right, yeah. But then you askyour people, and they're like,
like you said, 75% of peopledon't feel anything. They're
like, nope, my leader stillmakes me feel super, super
unsafe. I'm walking oneggshells. I'm not recognized
(34:07):
for my work. I don't feelcelebrated. I don't feel like my
identity is celebrated. I hearoff putting jokes and
microaggressions. And we, so thefirst thing is really to present
the data, the reality. And then,you know, we align that with
their purpose, the purposeworkshop that they work, we work
with them on to say, Okay, howdo we start to close the gap.
(34:28):
And this is a most this is,again, a multi year and a multi
decade journey. This is not justabout implementing a few things
and saying, Look, we did it, weremeasure hopefully reassess
every year to see how wereclosing the gap. And we continue
being consistent with theevaluation on our value system.
(34:50):
And we continue to hold youknow, if if we continue to be
employed by the client, youknow, we're kind of
accountability partners as wellto to challenge to step into
that channel.
enroll and say, Hey, you saidthis, but you're doing this.
Does that make sense to you? Andif it does, I think we have a
problem because we don't see itthat way as your consultant. So
(35:11):
I think it's about setting thevision upfront, assessing
against that, that vision,seeing where the gaps are being
really humble, to those results,to say, oh, shit, we have a
problem. Let's work on that.
I think what you shouldn't do issee those results and say things
(35:31):
like, Oh, well, not like that,or that's ridiculous. It's all
their problem and not ours,because we've seen that too. And
then there's kind of just ashutdown.
So there's a little bit ofgrieving that happens, I don't
know how to describe it, becausethere's grieving. Yeah, people,
I work a lot with leaders asthey're grieving through the
(35:51):
results. And this is actuallypart of our process. And it's a
little bit the psychology partof it all, which is, you're
losing something you're losingof, you're losing a vision of
what you thought alreadyexisted, that now you see
doesn't exist. And you see allthese huge gaps in some of those
gaps around your own leadership,or your leadership teams
(36:12):
leadership or how theorganization has operated thus
far. And so it truly is agrieving process to work through
that future vision. But you haveto go through it, you have to go
through the the murkiness andthe nastiness to get there.
It's like the five stages ofgrief. So oftentimes, we see
the, the deny, or thebargaining, you see the anger,
(36:36):
we're seeing that a lot. But wedon't talk enough about the
grieving part, and the acceptingthe acceptance, those are the
five stages of grief. And so Ireally appreciate you really
talking about that sadness, thatkind of sense of loss of a
different picture.
(36:56):
And not shutting down and havingthat humility, to be open to
hear what you know, becauseoftentimes, our leaders are
surrounded by people that tellthem what they want to hear.
That's the beauty of goingoutside, you get you know, you
know, you don't, you don't knowwhat you don't know. And you're
going to always cater to, youknow what's going to keep your
(37:16):
job or get you promoted or keepyou out of trouble. But a
consultant can come in, and justhave real talk. And I think
leaders really do respect thatand actually appreciate that no
matter how, you know, it can bereally hard to hear.
So absolutely. Let me
(37:36):
ask you this, this is somethingthat I asked everybody, and I
really look forward to youranswer as well on this as the
name of the podcast iscommunicate like you give a damn
right. So what does that soundlike, in your work? To you? What
does it feel like? What does itlook like? What does it sound
like to communicate like yougive a damn?
(37:59):
Yeah, so I think the first thingis understanding your people,
not just their roles, but ashumans, their wants, their
desires, their needs, theiraspirations, their agendas, you
know, you really have to spendtime understanding the nuances
and the diversity of yourpeople. And know that that
translates into different waysof communicating.
(38:21):
I think that's the first thing.The second thing, I think, is
all around transparency. So alot of leaders that I work with,
loves to spin communications,they love to use the flowery
language. And it's just nothelpful and it does more harm
than good. And people I think, Ihate to say this, and maybe I'm,
(38:46):
maybe I'm not saying it thecorrect way. But this is what I
think I think a lot of leadersunderestimate the brilliance of
their people. And they think ifthey spin results or spin
communications, it's just gonna,they're just gonna, like smile
and go along with it. People arenot dumb. People are really,
(39:08):
really smart. And so when theycan see right through the
bullshit, so when you'reconstantly communicating about
how great everything is,
you're getting the eye rolls,trust me. So I think
communicating like you give adamn is also being able to say
the hardship, being vulnerableas a leader saying, You know
what? Things aren't going wellright now. We know we've had a
(39:31):
focus on DNI but we're notseeing any impact. And that's a
problem. Yeah. And here's whathere's what we're going to do
about it. Like, just be real,because if you're not people,
people are going to roll theireyes and you're going to destroy
the integrity of whatever kindof cultural transformation
you're looking to make. Thankyou for saying all that. Yeah,
(39:54):
it's, it's yeah, just howrefreshing would it be to hear
an organization actually ownwhere they
Are you take responsibility forit, I was working with an
insurance client. And they're inthe CEO said, we had a much more
racially diverse group of staffthan we do now. And the only
thing I can say to that is wetook our eye off the ball. Now,
(40:16):
it's a sports analogy, but onethat I understand personally, to
where it's like, yeah, if you'renot intentional, and it's not a
one and done, like you said,it's not like a chiropractic
adjustment, we just, you know,it's one and then we never have
to have an adjustment. Again,it's an ongoing work, it's a
deepening work, there's alwayssomething to learn.
So the other thing have to, Iwanted it, you just have to
(40:37):
stick with it, otherwise, itwill get out of hand again,
which is what we're also seeingwith the LGBTQ plus community is
that we can't take
our rights for granted. Forexample, go ahead.
And that's I wanted to mentionthat because we are in Pride
Month, and I think this monthhas usually been a and it still
(40:58):
is a time for celebration.
And to your point, thecommunity's rights are being
questioned, the very existenceof their bodies and humanity are
being questioned. So I think thethe messaging right now, this is
a great example of messagingwhere we can be real to say,
(41:21):
we want to be an organizationthat celebrates this community,
but let's be real, we are at thevery basic bottom of the pyramid
right now around safety. Peopledon't even feel safe. So you
know, all all of the messagesaround celebrating pride and all
these things, they just, I thinkthose are, those are met with
(41:43):
eye rolls, at least for me whenI'm seeing a you know, an
organization or somebody postsabout pride month, and it's time
to celebrate, like people areafraid for their lives. Let's
talk about that. Yep. Before wetalk about celebration, because
that is the that is the pressingcontextual issue right now. So I
think there's this balance ofgetting us to your point, moving
(42:06):
towards this vision of whatshould be but also acknowledging
where we are, and having thosetough conversations of where we
are, and especially if we're notdoing well,
talking about that, and beingtransparent. Thank you for
saying that. I know you're astrong ally. And I really,
really, really appreciate thatyou said that is near and dear
(42:27):
to my heart. Just yesterdaymorning, my girlfriend and I
were talking about meeting upwith some friends at a pride
event this weekend. And she'slike, I don't know, if I feel
safe going.
You know, there's a genuine fearwe spent the week last week in
Toronto, where, you know,walking around in the gay
neighborhood of Toronto, we theworst thing that we were made
(42:50):
aware of that could happen islike insults, physical abuse,
those kinds of things. But therewas never I didn't realize how
alarmed not how sensitive I amto my surroundings when I'm in
the States. How aware I am ofexits. How, you know how kind of
(43:11):
tense I was feeling until I wasin Toronto. And realize that I
that, you know, there was alittle bit of a PST PTSD that I
was feeling of I just didn'trealize how
how much it was impacting mysensitive little system of just
being afraid for my safety andthe safety of those around me
(43:32):
until I came back to the States.It's actually been kind of a
culture shift for me to comeback to the States after being
in a space where really theworst thing that could happen to
me is that someone call me aname or punch me or try to stop
me right. That's, that's, I candeal with terrifying. Yeah, I
don't want to deal with it. ButI'm not it's it's the lethality
(43:56):
difference. And so, you know, soit's a very real, very personal
experience that I'm having rightnow in pride is around our is
my, my personal safety. Yeah,just going out and having a good
time with my friends, likeeverybody should have the right
and the ability to do so. So,you know, I love you your work I
(44:24):
admire and respect in theincredible work that you're
doing and making the shift andtaking everything that you've
gotten so far and turning itinto a service to companies, you
desperately need this kind ofservice and a little bit of a
hand holding that you actuallyhelp them through the emotional
side of this work, which isabsolutely necessary. Not
everything. You use data, butthere can be an emotional
(44:47):
reaction to that data. So youjust you're there on both on all
the fronts and I appreciate thatwork that you do for clients,
how can people follow you andstay in touch with your work?
Yeah,
Absolutely. Well, thank you, Kimso much. You can follow me on
LinkedIn. I'm under Angela, ourHoward, our company pages call
(45:10):
for culture on there. And thenif you wanted to reach out,
you can go to call forculture.com. And that's where
you can view a little bit moreabout our services and how we
help organizations through thiswork.
And your podcast is, and mypodcast. Oh my gosh, yes. So we
also have a podcast and heldsocial responsibility at work.
(45:30):
And you can catch us on all overthe all the podcast platforms
anywhere where you listen.
And yes, find our episode whereyou and I are having a chat
about some some things that weregoing on culturally and in
communications at the time.
And we're still seeing thefallout of that whole scenario
that we talked about. Thank youfor being here. Angela, thank
(45:54):
you so much. It was a real honorto spend this time with you.
Thank you for sharing. Thank youso much, Kim, appreciate you
Hello, hello, welcome back. I'm so pleased to be here
(00:04):
with Angela, Howard Angela and Igot connected What was it like a
year or so maybe a little bitmore, then we just hit it off
the first time we met. We'relike, there's so much synergy
between our work but also ourinterests or passions.
Unknown (00:21):
And I'm super fascinated by your path of how
you got into diversity andequity inclusion work. So why
don't you introduce yourself?And then I've got like, a ton of
questions for you. Yeah. Well,Kim, thank you so much for
having me. First of all, it wasa pleasure having you on the
podcast about my podcast. So thetables have turned, it's a
(00:43):
beautiful thing to be on theother side. So thank you for
that. Hi, everyone. My name isAngela Howard. I am an
organizational psychologist andthe CEO of a company called call
for culture. And, you know, wefocus on cultural transformation
work. And what does that mean?Because I think we're throwing
(01:03):
the word culture around a lotlately. And really, what we're
focused on is how do you matchorganizations words with their
actions, and ultimatelyconnecting that back to their
value system? So from abehavioral perspective, how are
we shifting and transformingorganizations? And so that's a
little bit about me. Now, that'swhat makes us so awesome as
(01:25):
partners, because you know, Ioften say, language leads to
behavior. So I got the language,I got the communications, you've
got the culture, you've got thebehavior. I love it, just like
two peas in a pod our work? Ilove that. Exactly, exactly. So
what tell me more about what anorganizational psychologist does
(01:48):
and what that background is? Andhow do you apply that to your
work?
Yeah, so you know, I always liketo say, you know, IO
psychologist, so the technicalterm for my degree is industrial
organizational psychology. Ithink it's becoming more and
more prominent, but we do have abranding problem. So I think
(02:09):
someone in communication shouldwork on that. I'm automatically
thinking of grease and machines.Yeah, exactly a horrible
branding problem. But really,you know, this work started
during the IndustrialRevolution, where quite
honestly, it was like, you know,how do we most effectively get
the most out of people? Youknow? And of course, that's not
(02:30):
the work we do today, it'sevolved more to, you know, How
do humans actually behave withinthe workplace? How do we think
about organizations asmicrocosms of society, and
almost like a study ofanthropology, right. But we're
using data and science to makedecisions around around people
(02:50):
within organizations, and how tonot just get the most out of
them, but also to work with thehuman condition and how humans
thrive within the workplace.Okay, all right. So you were
defining culture earlier?
Often, there's, there's anacknowledgement of the formal
(03:12):
side of culture, and then theinformal side of culture. So
when you're working withclients, and if you have any
kind of stories, you know, talkabout certain clients
situations, how do you help themunderstand the influence of
culture, especially towardsdiversity, equity and inclusion
goals for an organization?
(03:34):
Yeah, so I think a lot of times,we have misconceptions around
what culture is, you know, thisconnects back to my academic
background, because in IOpsychology, we talk a lot about
the organization as a system,and how the different pieces
work together to drive behaviorand action and change. And so
(03:56):
when it comes to culture, youknow, culture is really just a
culmination of rituals, beliefs,habits, things that happen
almost like below the surface,it's things you can't quite, you
can't always name or put yourfinger on, but they've evolved
over time to a point where itjust is. And a lot of times this
(04:16):
gets in the way of change.Because if you think about a
founder who's built a company,and it's 100 years old, you can
you can see how those traditionsand rituals have evolved over
time to just stick right andnobody questions them. Nobody
says anything. But what a lot oforganizations don't do is they
don't audit that connected backto their value system. So we
(04:40):
work with organizations to say,Okay, well, you have these
beautiful core values, right?These are core values that maybe
weren't developed even 100 yearsago. They haven't changed with
the times or even, you know,broader culture and society, so
maybe we should relook at them.And let's really talk about what
are the behavioral proof points
So that tells us that we'redoing these things. And I think
(05:03):
a lot of organizations do agreat job of putting the
beautiful words on a webpage ora wall, but they don't actually
define the behaviors. So I'mtalking about inclusion, you're
talking about inclusion fromcompletely different mental
models.
I think that's really veryimportant to understand is we
may be throwing around theseterms, but it doesn't mean I
(05:24):
understand them. It doesn't meanthat you know, I mean, the same
thing, and it doesn'tnecessarily mean that I know
what it looks like when it'shappening. Another challenge
that we have as deicommunicators is that we focus
and rely on the terms diversity,equity and inclusion as kind of
safeguards that people get it.And people understand that's not
(05:47):
the case. So I'm challenging alot of my clients to say, what
are the outcomes of diversitythat we're seeking? What are the
outcomes of equity andinclusion? Are we seeking so
it's, it's more of like, usethose words. And that will reach
more people who are triggered bythe words by the phrases? And
(06:07):
you know, and words, dei, forsure. But sometimes, I think,
no, I know, that us ascommunicators need to go below
the surface to understand whatdiversity equity inclusion
actually is, because we usethese terms to kind of hide
behind, and we don't go deeperinto what they actually meet. So
(06:33):
you know, people who are kind ofnew to D, I R feel like it's
being pressed upon them. I thinkone of the things they don't
they that we've not done a goodjob as di communicators, to do
for these folks is to help themunderstand the DEI exists in
culture, wherever there'speople, there's a culture that's
(06:54):
created, co created. And whatwe're seeing is kind of the
shadow side of Dei, because it'swild, wild west, it's not
intentional, it's not strategic,you know, it's not informed. And
that's what all we're trying todo is to get to just like really
honing in on a product, or on aservice and truly understanding
(07:16):
what it is knowing how tomeasure it and understanding the
benefits of this product to ourcompany. It's really
understanding and getting belowthat surface. So we don't just
hide, hide behind these terms.So can you talk a little bit
more about how culture can beunbridled that it will happen
with or without us. But as weget more intentional with CO
(07:40):
creating culture, towards theseoutcomes, that diversity, equity
and inclusion, are trying todrive us towards and promise us?
Yeah, so the best analogy I canthink of, for this to kind of
lose us a little bit ofstorytelling here is a garden.
And I use this often when whenit comes to culture, because
(08:01):
first of all, what happens whenyou don't tend to a garden? You
get weeds, right? So culture isonly my backyard right now.
Exactly, say mine too. So ifyou're thinking about culture,
as it's something you certainlyneed to curate in your mind, but
you also have to do things. Youcan't just speak it and make it
(08:22):
so so I can't just say you knowwhat, this bed of flowers is
going to be a beautiful bed ofdaisies, you actually have to,
you know, dig in the dirt,you've got to pull the weeds,
you have to constantly tend tothe culture of your
organization. And I thinksometimes, as leaders we we have
these programs, right? Wedevelop these programs that have
(08:44):
a start date and an end date.And well intended, maybe a
little performative becauseculture is something you're
being much more kind than I am
Yes, I'm I'm slicing and dicingmy words a little bit here but
But truly, you know, you have to
you have to nurture culture, youhave to understand what the
(09:07):
layout of it you know, if wethink about the garden again,
the the daisies go there, thethe roses go there, we want to
make sure the weeds are pulled,you know, the weeds are about
the best analogy for people areleaders who are actually doing
the opposite of what you wantwithin your culture. So I think
sometimes we focus so much onadding on, when in reality we
(09:28):
should be deconstructing or eventaking away to get to the
culture that we're looking for.So absolutely, it's absolutely
something you have to attend toconstantly. And really, you need
an anchor for that. And we, youknow, our philosophy a call for
culture is that your valuesystems translated into those
behavioral proof points is youranchor. And that should be
(09:52):
something that's baked intoeverything you do, how you hire,
how you develop, how youevaluate how you hold people
accountable.
What your policies and processeslook like how your employment
value proposition shows up howyour brand value shows up, it
should be baked into everythingthat you do as an organization.
(10:13):
And planting those seeds. So ifwe're, if we're planting seeds
of roses, don't be really pissedoff. If it comes out as roses
when you actually want it tolips, you can't be mad at the
seeds. It's like, what did youtake a look around? If there's a
whole bunch of apple trees? Andyou're like, where's the
variety? Well, it's becausewe've been planting apples this
(10:33):
whole time. So there's thatthat's where we're coming from
and being strategic andintentional. And saying, if we
want a wide variety of fruit inour orchard, that's what we have
to plant and nurture to yourpoint. So let's get into
language. So what role doeslanguage have when it comes to
(10:53):
shaping culture? And,
you know, you know, and justcommunications in general?
Yeah, so gosh, I have so manythoughts on this. The first
thought is, you know, I like tothink about language as there's,
there's equity in it. So
what I mean by that is, youknow, when I start working with
(11:16):
an organization, I spent a lotof time pretty much the first
month learning the language ofthe organization, because back
to that point around inclusion,what I'm saying and you're
saying may be two completelydifferent things, we may be
using different words, butmeaning the same thing as well.
So we spent a lot of time justfrom our and this is where the
(11:36):
anthropology comes in.
Observing and understanding whenwe talk about culture, what are
we actually talking about?You're saying one thing, but
meaning another, or yourbehavior and your actions are
mismatch? Why is that? Solanguage, I think, has some
brand equity in it. And it'simportant to sometimes meet
(11:58):
people where they are. That'sthe first piece is, I may be
saying one thing and usingdifferent language, we may be
talking about the same thing. SoI think language can connect
people and create understanding.The second thing is that
language sends a signal. So ifwe're using language that makes
me feel less than celebrated, ifwe're using language that
(12:23):
excludes people, because nobodyknows what it means, that is a
tool for exclusion within anorganization. And then thirdly,
you know, I think language isjust something that again, from
an anthro anthropologyperspective, it, it's more of
that broader sea culture, right,I think of like workplace
(12:44):
culture as a lowercase c, andthen you're working with the,
the broader uppercase C languageis how we
used, you know, information andshare information and tell
people how we're feeling howwe're doing. And then hearing
things over and over, again, Ithink are really important for
things to stick from a culturalperspective. So that was a lot,
(13:06):
because I saw this question. AndI'm like, Oh, my gosh, there's
so many implications aroundlanguage. So so much. Yeah. And
I know you're a proponent ofinclusive language and gender
neutral language, and reallyhelping clients understand what
is inclusive language, what isthat language that we can use to
create this culture that yourvalues are asking you to create?
(13:30):
I do a lot of we're recordingthis during pride month in June,
and I do a lot of talks aboutpride and tell my own personal,
you know, coming out story, etc.And one of the things that I
always want to share is thisidea of an inclusion agreement
where in order to create awelcoming environment, one of
(13:51):
the things that I sniff out as agay woman is are you making
jokes about the gay community?Are you you know, saying Love is
love but doing a differentthing? Like you said, like, do
you make fun of pronouns? Do younot have your pronouns on your
email signature? So there's,there's a signifiers that people
(14:11):
within the community will lookfor to see if they're safe in
your environment. And I'mreminded of a story I was told
by my mentor who said that it'sa great story it's of a kid and
you know, a bunch of kids inkindergarten the and the
question was asked, what islove? You know, so you're
talking about these differentways that definitions can come
(14:34):
out. And so one kid says, Loveis my name safe in your mouth?
Oh, that's power I name is safein your mouth. And so if we
think about that in a workplace,like is my name is My identity
is who I am safe in your mouth,whether I'm in the room or not,
(14:55):
and whether you know me or not,so whether I ever meet
You are not so in your family,in your co workers, the the team
that you may manage or thecompany you may lead or how you
vote or where you spend anddonate your money, is my name is
My identity is my humanity safewith you? So I really think it's
(15:21):
important for folks tounderstand, you know, the role
that language leading tobehavior and CO creating this
culture is these are things thatwe're looking for,
you know, we're looking forwords and phrases, or their
jokes or the way are people notstopping jokes. And then I know
that I'm not safe in thisenvironment. And then I know who
(15:44):
to trust and who not to trust.And so in one of those early
signifiers, is people who usetheir pronouns, for example,
that I know that at least,they're aware enough and care
enough to extend that signifierto folks in the community.
You work with a variety ofcompanies, and they're all over
(16:04):
the place from just gettingstarted or may have been working
on di and various forms over thelast two decades, right. So I'm
super interested in what in thisday and time where we're
experiencing right now,basically, a dei backlash from
three years ago, the summer of2020, where there was this
thrust forward, where there wasthis requirement that we need to
(16:28):
start talking about racism,sexism,
ableism, heteronormativity, etc,we have to talk about it, but we
all suck at talking about it,especially in a work
environment, we have terrible orno role models for this. But now
there's this pushback, which isa signifier of progress being a
(16:49):
spiral, it's not linear, it's aspiral. So we're circling
around, which means we're goingto come around the bend very
soon, and there's going to bethis momentum going forward,
which is what listeners of thispodcast are looking for is how
to be a part of that movement,that continued forward movement
of inclusivity in the workplace,as well as in society in
(17:10):
general. So what are some ofthe, like the top three
challenges that you're seeingyour clients and organizations
going through as they do thiswork? In the midst of this kind
of, you know, should show
a lot of organizations are areexperiencing right now this?
This, this identity crisis?Yeah, yeah, it's, um, it's so
(17:36):
interesting to watch, because Ithink
I'm seeing one of two things,either people are really
doubling down on their valuesaround this. So they're saying
it's even more important than itwas before?
And those are the people we wantto work with. Right? Yeah,
that's one thing that I've I'velearned in this work is that
(17:57):
I would love to be able tochange minds. And that is a part
of our influence ascommunicators, and as
changemakers. And I don't wantto enter an organization and
waste your money or my money, ifthis is something you're not
committed to do. So it is thisfine balance. Or two, there's
(18:17):
people who are doubling down onthe other side and saying, you
know, what, we're just going tofocus on customer
centric operations, we're goingto focus on things that, you
know, in the short term driveprofit, and aren't really a part
of the sustainabilityconversation. My theory is those
companies are going to fail.Yes, we'll see them in a year or
(18:40):
two, when they it's going to bemore expensive to fix. I'm right
there with you. Exactly. So Ithink what the big themes that
I'm finding, as we're, you know,because we go through an
assessment process, we do kindof a reality check with
organizations, we audit theirvalue system, this is all part
of our process. And at the endof the process, when we're
(19:01):
presenting the results to them,the one thing that comes up
every single time is leadership,role modeling,
is a lack of reality settingaround how the executive team or
the top level leaders areactually
exemplifying operationalizingthe values in their day to day
(19:22):
behavior. There's usually arealization that there's
somebody at the top, who iscounter culture to what we're
looking to build. And there'susually a lot of hard decisions
that need to be made. You know,I work with some companies where
the CEO had lack of visibilitythat they had a problematic
leader within the organizationand through our process, they
(19:44):
realized oh,
one bad player in this is goingto destruct our entire culture
and I will say that, you know,your culture is your worst
behavior at your organization.When I tell that to leaders, it
kind of clicks for them like,Oh, this is this is
A question of integrity. I getit. It's not just about a bunch
of activity. It's also about myintegrity as a leader, as a CEO
(20:09):
as a founder. And they quicklystarted to, and legacy.
Absolutely. So that's a big ahamoment. And you know, there's
some people, there's someleaders who really are focused
on that legacy. And there's somewho just don't get that. And so
it's kind of a coachingopportunity throughout our time
together to help them understandhow this is impacting their
(20:31):
culture, how some of this ismore lagging indicators versus
leading indicators. But I dobelieve, you know, we can pretty
quickly understand if thecommitment is, is there upfront,
pretty early on, or if it'sperformative. And I will say
there, there seems to be a splitof those two things, and we try
to lean towards those companieswho are committed to the work.
(20:52):
Yeah, absolutely. That's whyI've changed how I describe the
kind of work that I do is that Iwork with folks, primarily
communicators, and leaders whoare serious about learning and
applying diversity, equity andinclusion to their
communications on a daily basis.
You know, so yeah, I am rightthere with you. You know, and
(21:13):
some people may have thatintention, you were talking
about that good intention, well,intentions. They think that
they're serious about the work.But as I have found and why I,
you know, reached out to JanetStovall, to co author a book
with me on consciouscommunications in general, is
that I find that a lot ofcommunicators and leaders in
(21:34):
particular, don't understandwhat the work is, they meant
what they put up in the summerof 2020, and the tweets, but
they didn't really understandwhat the work is that's behind
it. So yes, there's a lot of usdi practitioners that we're not
going to participate inperformative work with clients,
because that gives an excuse toleaders to say, see, it doesn't
(21:55):
work. Yes, when it's not ourwork that failed, right? It
could be just mostly aneducation of understanding what
the work actually is, and justcoming to that agreement up
front, to truly understand arelike in are you in, and we'll
take you where you are? Well,we'll take we'll move you where
(22:16):
you from where you are, youdon't have to go zero to 60. But
you know, and there's this wholeamount of work that I'm sure
that you see, when you're makingrecommendations and do your
roadmap is sometimes to yourpoint, it's not always adding
new things. Sometimes it's justreducing harm that makes the
most
right off the top. Let's let'sstart there.
(22:39):
I would totally agree. And Ithink, you know, I've, and this
is why we've become really clearup front when we work with
clients is we just want to beclear, you are doing the work,
we are guiding you because ourgoal is to work ourselves out of
a job. We want this to besustainable. You don't want to
lean on us for a decade, youknow, like that's not smart or
(23:01):
conscious. And too, I think, youknow, a lot of times we work
with clients and not so much nowbecause we've we've we've
smartened up in the process, butyou know, you get to that end
point. And they see the results,and they're like, Oh, well not
like that we didn't we didn'twant you to tell us that like we
(23:21):
wanted you, we wanted you totell us what kind of training we
need, or you know what kind oflike,
monthly DNI programs we shouldimplement. Just like when you
hire the wrong person, I am sosorry, we were misaligned.
Because that's not work that'sgoing to impact anything. It's
throwing spaghetti at the walland seeing what sticks.
(23:42):
So yeah, I totally with you. Youknow, there's a Harvard Business
Journal research that Iconstantly share that talks
about it's it's it's a datacollected over 1000 Different
companies, globally, actually.And these are all organizations
(24:03):
that have dei strategies. And itwas found in this data that 75%
of employees at different partsin levels of the organization,
their daily lives were notimpacted or improved in any way,
shape, or form that is 75%. Soeverything's staying at the top
(24:25):
with the awesome branding, andthe cool infographics. And there
might be employee resourcegroups, but are they empowered?
You know, to actually do a work?Do they have a business value?
Do they have a cultural value?Are they supported in a way that
actually has meaningful changeand proved impact to you know,
(24:48):
folks, his experience of theworkplace culture, so there's a
lot of education that has to goaround. There's a lot of
paradigms that we need to let goof. And Rediff
notions of what this workactually looks like. So when
you're working with a client,are you working with the
communications teams? And if so,what are you needing from them?
(25:12):
What are you telling them? Thatis their work to do as part of
the successful outcomes of Di?
Yeah, so like you said before,we work with organizations that
all have all sizes, andsometimes we're working with
organizations that don't have acommunication team. So one of
the key parts of our process isall around messaging. And so if
(25:36):
there is a communications team,we work hand in hand with them
to align messaging to alignmodalities of messaging, the
content around that messaging,to the initiative, but also to
the sustainability of thatinitiative. So we want to work
within the organizationalstructure of how things are
(25:59):
actually communicate. I thinkthat's kind of the first step.
There's some basics around howdoes that company communicate
today. So we'd like to meet themwhere they are, but we also
challenge them and ask them toget creative on ensuring that we
are inclusively talking toeveryone within the
organization. It's not just anemail that's sent to 500 people
(26:21):
with the same messaging. Youknow, we're also using smaller
containers of conversations andlistening throughout the
process. So we're, you know,sometimes we're coaching the
communications team, because itmight be a more of a traditional
communications team. But youknow, our goal is to create
bilateral methods of listeningand communicating. And we do
(26:45):
that through a variety ofmodalities. But the goal is to
plan that out ahead of time,work that plan, but then also
kind of iterate as we go. And aswe learn things, so we want to
be strategic and intentional aspossible. But with the
flexibility to change as we goand to listen and to iterate.
And communications really shapedthe culture. There's a tone that
(27:08):
set by communications kind ofwords that we use, are we super
jargon heavy or always superstuck on our headquartered
country's colloquialisms? Youknow, so there are all kinds of
ways that communicators reallyneed to step up. I'm a, I'm a
firm believer, I don't know howyou feel about this, Angela is
that de ai efforts cannot besuccessful without
(27:31):
communicators, getting theirhead around this work and
stepping up and trulyunderstanding what it is because
they are co creators and shapersof the workplace culture.
Yes, absolutely. 100%. And, youknow, when I worked as a chro,
before I started my ownbusiness, communications and
(27:51):
marketing, were my two.
Everybody was a partner in away, but they were really close
partners for me.
Especially communications,because those two things are
just so connected, like yousaid,
with your experience as a ChiefHuman Resources Officer.
(28:12):
What's your take on dei beingkind of staged within HR?
Oh, well, I think we're seeingan interesting,
a trend around like what I liketo call kind of this hero and
Cape mentality when it comes toChief people, officers, and also
(28:39):
chief diversity officers whereall of this work around culture
and DNI sits within a person.And I think there's a lack of
understanding that when you whenyou hire a chief people officer
or chief diversity officer orchief HR officer, all the
different, you know, titles wegive heads of
(29:02):
they are facilitators, they areguides. This work needs to work
and be built within the fabricof your organizational culture.
And I almost see it as we're, weshould be working ourselves out
of a job just like we do asconsultants. The diversity team
should also be workingthemselves out of a job. Now, is
(29:23):
that possible? Probably not.It's kind of a meta idea. But
it's the idea that you'rebuilding sustainability within
the organization. So when youplace DNI under HR, for example,
first of all, you're bufferingit and sending a signal that
it's not a strategic culturalfocus of the organization.
You're also sending a signalthat
(29:46):
this department exists, but itexists in a vacuum, and nobody
else should be doing this work.So I think it's detrimental to
be honest to have DNI sit underHR
And then I think it'sdetrimental if organizations are
hiring D and AI experts or headsof thinking that that person is
(30:08):
owning D and I, I love thosepoints. And I and I completely
agree with you, you know,there's an unintentional side of
like, oh, this is where it goes,because there's budget, its
culture, its employees. So we'relike, that demonstrates, we
don't really understand what deiis. So we're gonna put it in HR.
And then there's sometimes anintentional, putting it under
(30:31):
HR, because HR is always thereto protect the company, and you
know, the company first versuspeople first. And it could be
there to kind of box in dei andlimit its scope and impact. But
while looking like we're doingsomething, but it's actually not
(30:51):
meaningful, which is why we'regetting a lot of this
performative and you know, harmmore than good. Sometimes it's
intentional to keep it undercontrol. And some of it is
sometimes it's like, we don'tknow what it really is. So, you
know, it seems like everybodyelse puts it under HR, when in
fact, having its own lane, likethere's it, there's legal,
(31:12):
there's HR, all of those groupsare embedded across the entire
organization. Yes, there'salways a finance person in every
in every department, there'salways it, there's always HR, D
AI is no differentcommunications should not be any
different. There should becommunications across and there
should be di across. So it's,it's again, flipping the script,
(31:36):
and really shifting theparadigms of how we understand
and taking the time, honestly,to truly understand
what the eye is, we keep comingback to that because it's this
ties into the culture like ofour culture, we have, like, how
do you feel about this, Angela,something that I work with, with
(31:56):
communicators is, I challengedthem by saying we have a real
lack of imagination when itcomes to diversity, equity and
inclusion.
And so it's like we just kind oflook around, even as leaders, we
look around and just kind of seewhat is sometimes it's hard for
us to like vision.
Something my mentor says painpushes until vision pulls, we're
(32:20):
in pain.
Pain has been pushing us to doDei, we were in pain in the
summer of 2020, we have we'refeeling a lot of pain, a lot of
people are feeling deeper anddeeper, there's a lot of pain
going on for the LGBTQ pluscommunity right now with over
550, anti, you know, LGBTQ plusbills and the criminalization
(32:42):
of, of people's existence, youknow, so there's a lot of pain
that's that that people areexperiencing. And in some
organizations, that's enough topush them. But we actually have
this tremendous opportunity toshift that momentum and actually
be pulled by vision that takesimagination. How do you do that
(33:03):
with your clients and pullingthem towards this vision of, of
understanding how their cultureand their organization will be
improved? Through this work withyou?
Yeah, it's, it's a multitude ofthings. But I think the first
one is really the reality checkof the gap. As to so what we do
(33:24):
in the beginning with ourclients is we do something
called purpose alignment. Andthat is really like the
development, the memorializationof our value system and those
behavioral proof points, then weassess. And what we typically
hear is, we thought we werehere, but we're actually the gap
is actually this wide, right?Like talking to the people
within the organizations likethe whole the whole executive
(33:46):
team. It's like, yeah, we'reinclusive. We implement all
these equity practices, and theyjust like throw out buzzwords,
right, yeah. But then you askyour people, and they're like,
like you said, 75% of peopledon't feel anything. They're
like, nope, my leader stillmakes me feel super, super
unsafe. I'm walking oneggshells. I'm not recognized
(34:07):
for my work. I don't feelcelebrated. I don't feel like my
identity is celebrated. I hearoff putting jokes and
microaggressions. And we, so thefirst thing is really to present
the data, the reality. And then,you know, we align that with
their purpose, the purposeworkshop that they work, we work
with them on to say, Okay, howdo we start to close the gap.
(34:28):
And this is a most this is,again, a multi year and a multi
decade journey. This is not justabout implementing a few things
and saying, Look, we did it, weremeasure hopefully reassess
every year to see how wereclosing the gap. And we continue
being consistent with theevaluation on our value system.
(34:50):
And we continue to hold youknow, if if we continue to be
employed by the client, youknow, we're kind of
accountability partners as wellto to challenge to step into
that channel.
enroll and say, Hey, you saidthis, but you're doing this.
Does that make sense to you? Andif it does, I think we have a
problem because we don't see itthat way as your consultant. So
(35:11):
I think it's about setting thevision upfront, assessing
against that, that vision,seeing where the gaps are being
really humble, to those results,to say, oh, shit, we have a
problem. Let's work on that.
I think what you shouldn't do issee those results and say things
(35:31):
like, Oh, well, not like that,or that's ridiculous. It's all
their problem and not ours,because we've seen that too. And
then there's kind of just ashutdown.
So there's a little bit ofgrieving that happens, I don't
know how to describe it, becausethere's grieving. Yeah, people,
I work a lot with leaders asthey're grieving through the
(35:51):
results. And this is actuallypart of our process. And it's a
little bit the psychology partof it all, which is, you're
losing something you're losingof, you're losing a vision of
what you thought alreadyexisted, that now you see
doesn't exist. And you see allthese huge gaps in some of those
gaps around your own leadership,or your leadership teams
(36:12):
leadership or how theorganization has operated thus
far. And so it truly is agrieving process to work through
that future vision. But you haveto go through it, you have to go
through the the murkiness andthe nastiness to get there.
It's like the five stages ofgrief. So oftentimes, we see
the, the deny, or thebargaining, you see the anger,
(36:36):
we're seeing that a lot. But wedon't talk enough about the
grieving part, and the acceptingthe acceptance, those are the
five stages of grief. And so Ireally appreciate you really
talking about that sadness, thatkind of sense of loss of a
different picture.
(36:56):
And not shutting down and havingthat humility, to be open to
hear what you know, becauseoftentimes, our leaders are
surrounded by people that tellthem what they want to hear.
That's the beauty of goingoutside, you get you know, you
know, you don't, you don't knowwhat you don't know. And you're
going to always cater to, youknow what's going to keep your
(37:16):
job or get you promoted or keepyou out of trouble. But a
consultant can come in, and justhave real talk. And I think
leaders really do respect thatand actually appreciate that no
matter how, you know, it can bereally hard to hear.
So absolutely. Let me
(37:36):
ask you this, this is somethingthat I asked everybody, and I
really look forward to youranswer as well on this as the
name of the podcast iscommunicate like you give a damn
right. So what does that soundlike, in your work? To you? What
does it feel like? What does itlook like? What does it sound
like to communicate like yougive a damn?
(37:59):
Yeah, so I think the first thingis understanding your people,
not just their roles, but ashumans, their wants, their
desires, their needs, theiraspirations, their agendas, you
know, you really have to spendtime understanding the nuances
and the diversity of yourpeople. And know that that
translates into different waysof communicating.
(38:21):
I think that's the first thing.The second thing, I think, is
all around transparency. So alot of leaders that I work with,
loves to spin communications,they love to use the flowery
language. And it's just nothelpful and it does more harm
than good. And people I think, Ihate to say this, and maybe I'm,
(38:46):
maybe I'm not saying it thecorrect way. But this is what I
think I think a lot of leadersunderestimate the brilliance of
their people. And they think ifthey spin results or spin
communications, it's just gonna,they're just gonna, like smile
and go along with it. People arenot dumb. People are really,
(39:08):
really smart. And so when theycan see right through the
bullshit, so when you'reconstantly communicating about
how great everything is,
you're getting the eye rolls,trust me. So I think
communicating like you give adamn is also being able to say
the hardship, being vulnerableas a leader saying, You know
what? Things aren't going wellright now. We know we've had a
(39:31):
focus on DNI but we're notseeing any impact. And that's a
problem. Yeah. And here's whathere's what we're going to do
about it. Like, just be real,because if you're not people,
people are going to roll theireyes and you're going to destroy
the integrity of whatever kindof cultural transformation
you're looking to make. Thankyou for saying all that. Yeah,
(39:54):
it's, it's yeah, just howrefreshing would it be to hear
an organization actually ownwhere they
Are you take responsibility forit, I was working with an
insurance client. And they're inthe CEO said, we had a much more
racially diverse group of staffthan we do now. And the only
thing I can say to that is wetook our eye off the ball. Now,
(40:16):
it's a sports analogy, but onethat I understand personally, to
where it's like, yeah, if you'renot intentional, and it's not a
one and done, like you said,it's not like a chiropractic
adjustment, we just, you know,it's one and then we never have
to have an adjustment. Again,it's an ongoing work, it's a
deepening work, there's alwayssomething to learn.
So the other thing have to, Iwanted it, you just have to
(40:37):
stick with it, otherwise, itwill get out of hand again,
which is what we're also seeingwith the LGBTQ plus community is
that we can't take
our rights for granted. Forexample, go ahead.
And that's I wanted to mentionthat because we are in Pride
Month, and I think this monthhas usually been a and it still
(40:58):
is a time for celebration.
And to your point, thecommunity's rights are being
questioned, the very existenceof their bodies and humanity are
being questioned. So I think thethe messaging right now, this is
a great example of messagingwhere we can be real to say,
(41:21):
we want to be an organizationthat celebrates this community,
but let's be real, we are at thevery basic bottom of the pyramid
right now around safety. Peopledon't even feel safe. So you
know, all all of the messagesaround celebrating pride and all
these things, they just, I thinkthose are, those are met with
(41:43):
eye rolls, at least for me whenI'm seeing a you know, an
organization or somebody postsabout pride month, and it's time
to celebrate, like people areafraid for their lives. Let's
talk about that. Yep. Before wetalk about celebration, because
that is the that is the pressingcontextual issue right now. So I
think there's this balance ofgetting us to your point, moving
(42:06):
towards this vision of whatshould be but also acknowledging
where we are, and having thosetough conversations of where we
are, and especially if we're notdoing well,
talking about that, and beingtransparent. Thank you for
saying that. I know you're astrong ally. And I really,
really, really appreciate thatyou said that is near and dear
(42:27):
to my heart. Just yesterdaymorning, my girlfriend and I
were talking about meeting upwith some friends at a pride
event this weekend. And she'slike, I don't know, if I feel
safe going.
You know, there's a genuine fearwe spent the week last week in
Toronto, where, you know,walking around in the gay
neighborhood of Toronto, we theworst thing that we were made
(42:50):
aware of that could happen islike insults, physical abuse,
those kinds of things. But therewas never I didn't realize how
alarmed not how sensitive I amto my surroundings when I'm in
the States. How aware I am ofexits. How, you know how kind of
(43:11):
tense I was feeling until I wasin Toronto. And realize that I
that, you know, there was alittle bit of a PST PTSD that I
was feeling of I just didn'trealize how
how much it was impacting mysensitive little system of just
being afraid for my safety andthe safety of those around me
(43:32):
until I came back to the States.It's actually been kind of a
culture shift for me to comeback to the States after being
in a space where really theworst thing that could happen to
me is that someone call me aname or punch me or try to stop
me right. That's, that's, I candeal with terrifying. Yeah, I
don't want to deal with it. ButI'm not it's it's the lethality
(43:56):
difference. And so, you know, soit's a very real, very personal
experience that I'm having rightnow in pride is around our is
my, my personal safety. Yeah,just going out and having a good
time with my friends, likeeverybody should have the right
and the ability to do so. So,you know, I love you your work I
(44:24):
admire and respect in theincredible work that you're
doing and making the shift andtaking everything that you've
gotten so far and turning itinto a service to companies, you
desperately need this kind ofservice and a little bit of a
hand holding that you actuallyhelp them through the emotional
side of this work, which isabsolutely necessary. Not
everything. You use data, butthere can be an emotional
(44:47):
reaction to that data. So youjust you're there on both on all
the fronts and I appreciate thatwork that you do for clients,
how can people follow you andstay in touch with your work?
Yeah,
Absolutely. Well, thank you, Kimso much. You can follow me on
LinkedIn. I'm under Angela, ourHoward, our company pages call
(45:10):
for culture on there. And thenif you wanted to reach out,
you can go to call forculture.com. And that's where
you can view a little bit moreabout our services and how we
help organizations through thiswork.
And your podcast is, and mypodcast. Oh my gosh, yes. So we
also have a podcast and heldsocial responsibility at work.
(45:30):
And you can catch us on all overthe all the podcast platforms
anywhere where you listen.
And yes, find our episode whereyou and I are having a chat
about some some things that weregoing on culturally and in
communications at the time.
And we're still seeing thefallout of that whole scenario
that we talked about. Thank youfor being here. Angela, thank
(45:54):
you so much. It was a real honorto spend this time with you.
Thank you for sharing. Thank youso much, Kim, appreciate you
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