September 15, 2025 • 23 mins
Meet Bastien. He has a huge love of fast cars, folding phones, and deep curiousity which has gotten him into trouble more than once...
Sure, Bastien is only in his 40s, and his already retired after selling a very successful business, that's not what he's concealing today... It's all about the colour of the hat he chooses to wear each and everyday.
Can you figure it out?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello. I'm art Simone, and I am ready to meet
someone exciting, someone interesting, someone who might just wow me
more than I wow myself. That's not very likely, is it.
One rule before we start is don't judge them on
first appearance. Please. Yes, they may seem a bit drab
or boring even, but I promise there will be something
(00:27):
worth sticking around for. Are you ready me too? Raw
the TI.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
My name is Bastian Treptel. I recently sold a tech
firm for a bit of money. Not your normal nerd though.
I get right into car racing, motorbike racing, My daughter's
into go karting, and I just love all things adrenaline
based and just managed to get fourth in this strange drivers'
championship last year. But I'm hiding a dark secret from
(00:58):
my past.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Okay, hello, Bastin, how are you?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
I'm good.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
You're good. You're sitting in front of me today. You've
got a lovely blazer, slash suit, jacket on black shirt,
well groomed, lovely watch, a phone that folds in half. Creepy.
We'll get into that. And so you said you we
sold your tech Damn I did. Wow, I don't know
what that means a tech firm, firm tech, and then
(01:25):
you sold.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
It firm tech. Let's go with that. No, I ran
a tech firm. I don't want to give away two
linked all right, but yeah I managed to sell it.
We're just recently in the fin review, so thin review.
So managed to retire, So pretty happy about that.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Thin review Finn review. Wait you're retired, I've retired. How
old did you say?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
What do you say? How old you are? I'm not
supposed to give that away. Oh okay, give me a
ballpark in the forties.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Jesus crass, You've got your whole life ahead of you.
Oh my god, no wonder you're going in the OZ
Driver's Championship. You could not have put me in a
room with someone who speaks a complete I think we're
from different worlds at the moment, and we're trying.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
To middle meeting final spot.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, because I have no idea what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Like you're cutting off some alleyways here though, no folding phones.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Well, okay, you have walked in with a folding phone
and they give me the creeps. I'm sorry, they're strange.
I don't know why to do the screens do that
that's weird. But also you're in the tech world, so
I can't make fun of them because you probably say
you invented it or something.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
So definitely didn't invent it. Okay, thank god.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Now, but let's go back into OZ Drivers' Championship Driving what.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
So they're open wheeler cars. They look like a lot
like Formula One cars, but without all a pesky rule.
So we battle each month for nothing more than a trophy.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Really, oh you battly? It sounds like that TV show
used to watch on SBS when they had Robot Wars
and they just like battle each other with Robot Wars.
Is it like that?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah? Well, one of the founders, John Crook, he came
out to me, disregard any health or any concerns for
your own safety and do everything to win for a
small plastic trophy.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
The kind of waivers do you have to sign to go?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I don't think they even have waivers. They don't have
lawyers yet, you know, we just roll with it.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Okay, So cars, motorbikes. You have a daughter who likes
go cutting lots of wheels. Wheels on the go, okay,
but not on the go because where do you need
to be you've retired. Jeez, that's crazy. Okay, I'm gonna
ask you three questions, and from the answers to those
three questions, I have to work out what it is
that you're concealing from me today.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Okay, wet st you're ready, I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Okay. Question number one, if you had to pick one
random accessory to wear with every outfit, what would it be?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Well? I like this one. A white hat.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
A white hat, yes, white hat. I don't think when
I hear white hats umpires do they wear what? I
don't know, sport or cars.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
I'm trying. I don't like sports either, So we agree
on that one.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Okay, white hats. Okay. Question number two, what is the
best gift you have ever received?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Or it would be a toss up between my grandfather
gifting me my first computer and my other grandparents giving
me my first motorcycle?
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Oh my god, I just go around in circles now,
aren't we. I'm we're back to the motorcycles and the
wheels and all of that.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I gave you a pretty good clue on the first one. Okay,
white hat. Yeah, and the computer's a good one as now.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
I'm trying. I'm trying white hat, so computer. Maybe you
invented white hats on motorbikes. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I'm just putting pulled it out of the hat in one.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Okay, No, no, don't don't. It's my process, Thank you, Bastian.
It's my process. Okay. Question number three I have you
is if you had to have a complete career change,
something completely different to what you do now, what would
it be.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Look, I think I would be I know you're going
to hate this answer, a racing car driver. Or I
would go into space and explore.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Okay, space is fun. Okay, you're like risking your life
traveling at high speeds. Love motorbikes, white.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Hats, white hats. That's the good clue.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Okay, maybe your white hat. Didn't You just said hat,
didn't you? You didn't specify what type of hat.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
It could be? Any hat?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, any hat, Like space homes are white.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Do you want more clues?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
No? No, this is the rules. White hat traveling to space,
computer from your grandparents, motorcycle from your grandparents. You like racing,
and you sold a tech company? All right, what the hell? Okay,
I'm going to guess that you invented the technology that
(05:31):
makes the cargo from from what do you think is
that it?
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Did?
Speaker 1 (05:34):
I get it right?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Cue the gold buttons. Everything's falling down here, bang.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
On, don't tease me. I'm trying.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
As a teenager, I broke into a bank and stole
forty thousand credit cards as a hacker.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Basically, what you're a hacker?
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I was a hacker. Well, I guess I still am.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Oh my god, star, what's the hack got to do
with anything?
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Well, when you're a good hacker, you wear a white hat.
When you're a bad hacker, you wear the black hat. Also,
you know the colloquialism say, oh.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
My goodness, yeah, you're a criminal.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
I am criminal?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, oh yeah, sorry from reformed reformed criminal. I can't
make talk about the pipeline from hacking credit cards to
sitting in front of a drag queen on a podcast.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Ah, how good is it?
Speaker 1 (06:24):
You said you stole forty thousand people's credit card information?
What tell me the story, please?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Well, technically, I just broke into the bank, so this
is a long time ago, and the system that issues
the card numbers is how we got them, So it
wasn't really anyone's credit card number yet, so to me,
it was a victimless crime. Ah, and I ordered many pizzas,
which I still pay for to this day. And that's
how I eventually got busted. I got so blase because
it was so long after the crime that nothing happened.
(06:51):
I was starting to order pizzas to my own house,
to my friend's houses.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
So these were credit cards that didn't have people attached
to them yet, correct.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, so you could activate them and just use the number.
It was pretty cool. So no, it wasn't. That's about
I'm not supposed to say that. Don't do that kids.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
And how long was that before you got access to
this and then when you got caught about.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Three nearly four years? Jeez?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
So how old were you? Did you say?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
When I was around fourteen when I started to play
with computers, I was a really curious kid, and I
sort of got mentored a little bit by a few
people online, and some of them went to jail. I
managed to avoid jail. It just did community service.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
So how did it start with you getting gifted a
computer to then getting into this world of internet hacking?
How do you progress from that where you just you
said you're curious.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Super curious, like, for example, you cannot imagine how much
of a little crap I was to my parents. So
I realized that the problem with our cohol is it
has our cohol. So there was a gap between my
parents coming home and me finishing school, and I got
their entire alcohol collection rang up all these universities, learnt
through these universities how to remove alcohol from alcohol, and
(08:02):
blended their entire like fifteen year wine collection into a
boiler and condensed all the alcohol out of this and
then poured it all back. Is a nice rose set
the house on fire at the same time as well. Anyway,
they were not stoked.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So you were what they call in the industry a
little shit.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
A little shit, Yeah, I was one hundred cent shoff's
a llwed to swear.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Oh no you can, You're okay, Hey, this is how
genius has happened. I've seen the movies, I've read the documentaries.
No I haven't. That's not even a sentence, but I
get it. Okay. So you were very curious and then
you get a computer. I guess you do all the
normal things that people do on a computer, and then
you go, well, what else can I do with it?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
This is a tool, Well, how does it work, right,
how did the banks work, how did businesses work? And
then you know, there was it was a long time er, right,
it was like ninety nine, six ninety seven. I'm showing
my age now. So there was these communities online and
I was, you know, you'd never believe it, but I
was a bit teased at school being a nerd, and yeah,
these people online were like, hey, welcome to this new world,
and they were to me it was exciting. Like I
(08:58):
recently got to meet Kevin Mitnick. He's a famous hack,
probably one of the most famous hackers before he passed away.
But yeah, it was cool to hang around with those people.
We broke into satellites, banks, other businesses that I was
never convicted for. But yeah, I'm pretty sure the statute
of limitations is over on that. In fact, I now.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Work with your late nineteen hundred. So yeah, you know exactly,
it's all right. We've moved into the next century. Because
I think back to my first arm in a computer
and I used to be the one that all the
teachers used to call in to like do the computer
things for them, Like I got like an announcement of
the thing that pa being like, oh, Gonzonzo come and
help in five A and da da Dad was me
to go and setup the protective for them, or.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Do this or do that?
Speaker 1 (09:37):
So I was really interested, but then the technology evolved
way too fast in my skill set.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
How did you keep ahead with it or ahead of it?
Like so that's the worst thing about this industry, right,
You've constantly got to learn. It's just like now with AI,
it's a whole new thing to learn. Yeah, so I
don't know. I just was just stupidly continuously just learning, learning, learning, NonStop.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
So whose decision is it? Does hack into the bank?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
I use this old net bios hack like won't get
too techy, but essentially managed to get in with this
net biass hack. And then it was more about how
does this work? How does this work? And then I'm like,
oh my god, that's how they connect to Visa, that's
how they connect to master Guard. And then can I
get a credit card? How does that work? Can you
use a credit cardinal? But it was all just like
can you can? You? Can you? And there was a
bit of bragging about it as well, so you know,
and you're in the community like guess what, I'm just
(10:23):
like fully into the ma Remula Conwalk Bank branch here
and they're.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Like, what, that's a good thing to touch on too,
is the community aspect of it, because there is a
full community out there, and it's really easy to engage
and to talk to people, and you build a lot
of friendships that way. I remember I used to be
on forums, used to be in little little minus a
teen forums. Is like a young little gay person being
able to talk to other people like me or like
throughout the country and realize that, you know, I've got
(10:47):
other friends out there that are interested in the same
things that you are, So I can understand how those
communities build and then become passionate and then also competitive.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yes, definitely, And it was I mean, we didn't think
we were doing anything that wrong, Like we even let
this well I'm allowed to say now. So I spoke
at south By Southwest for the Commonwealth Bank and I
got to meet some of the arresting offices from the AFP.
I now work with the AFP to help children. So
it's all come full circle. Hey, But yeah, it was.
It was an interesting time.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
So you bought some pizzas with many credit card information
and money? What else did you buy anything anything fun
or notable.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
No, I was kind of aware that it was sort
of wrong. I think I paid for some textbooks and
education in pizzas, and I was about it. I should
have bought more cool stuff. But I feel like I
would have gone to jail.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Oh true. I guess when they tally up all the pizzas,
they're like, look, how long did you get in your
community service?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
So I had to one hundred and fifty hours, so
get this right. So I met so the lady that
I work with in the reboot program. We get all
these kids who are little delinquents and we get them
placed in the industry. And if I'd done the crime
that I did back then, now, I probably would have
got ten plus years.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Well, it's going to say, it's like the knowledge around
and all of this as well has progressed, and it's
I don't know, it's seen. It's like a bit more
of an intense thing to happen.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah. Well, there there was only three people that worked
in the cyber department when I got done. I got
to meet one of them. That was incredible. And yeah,
now it's properly listed as a crime. It's its own
subsection of the law and it's yeah, you get in
a lot of trouble.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
So what's the situation about you being caught? Because you know,
how did it happen. Did they run in and go
I stopped to get off the computer or did they
just call everything like hey, are you stealing money? What's
going on?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
No? Look, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Yeah, it's
not a nice thing for parents to go through. My
parents had a whole bunch of horrible stuff go through
with police. If anyone who's thinking about being a hacker
as a kid, a you'd go to jail. So don't
do it. But yeah, it's pretty brutal on your family,
Like they the police. You're a kid, remember, right, So
they police have this pretty genuine way of making you
(12:50):
think like you're probably going to die this afternoon. Everything
in your life is over. Do you think you're going
to finish school? No, you're not. Do you think you're
going to keep going to university? Not happening? Do you
think you can ever get a again? Like, you need
to tell us exactly what happens right now? And then
you've watched every police show and you know in your
head as a little teenager. You're like, don't talk if
you say if you don't say anything, you'll be fine.
(13:10):
And that doesn't go down so well either. Uh, and
then you know you got crying parents and disappointed relatives
and yeah, I remember kind of after they like come
and get you or did they call you in or yeah,
they kind of got us. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I
was like like a proper little shit.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Well, I think one thing I'm learning from today is
that the growth that you've had is impeccable.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah, a fine an upstanding citizen there. Yeah, that's Oh
my god. Did your parents have any idea or was
this No? I think it's really similar to now. Right,
So my parents thought I was clever on the computer.
I didn't really it was going on. There's a case
of a kid here in Fine, North Queensland who wanted
to pay off his mum's mortgage, got groomed online by
Russian hackers taught him to hack stole twenty two million
(13:53):
US dollars recently. He's now doing twenty five years in
a state penitentiary prison in California, which is horrible. Right,
And he's parents, when they were interviewed, were the same
like we just thought he was a clever kid. We
had no idea and his motive was so pure as well,
right to pay off his mum's mortgage. So parents out there,
go and sit on roadblocks, and go and sit on
Minecraft because there's some hectic stuff going on there coming up.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Bastian explains to us exactly what hackers are up to
these days and how you can protect yourself. Oh and
I try to hack into my MySpace account using three
little tips from Bastian. Oh all right, so we're here
with Batscian, the ex convicted criminal hacker, former bad guy
(14:38):
turned good guy. I want to know what a hacker
is exactly up to these days, what's going on, how
have they advanced?
Speaker 2 (14:43):
It's terrifying, right, So I actually go and get to
meet some of these hackers in Asia, and one of
them told me recently, goes, I'm winning with my slowest
racehorse at the moment. I'm not giving away the capabilities
that I have because once I show my capabilities, then
the defenses arise. So their AI based tools. For example,
there's a lot of bank accounts in Australia. People transfer
money out of the bank accounts with an SMS code.
(15:05):
If you send money to someone else. Right, if you
use that method to approve a transfer, I can take
all the money out of your bank account right now.
So I would urge you to move to an app base.
So if you're bank with someone whoever you do, make
sure that they use the app to authorize the code,
because otherwise, yeah, you're sitting duck. You should go and
find out what people know about you in the dark web.
(15:25):
I've got this cool little dark web. Yeah, let's get
in the dark web. Oh that's fine, Yeah, there's some
dodgy stuff there, but no, Like, I've built this little
AI app and it goes and finds everything about you. Right,
so I could find out where you used to live,
your pets, names, your football teams, your old passwords in
the dark web, and it gives me this a four
sheet and then I get it to delete all the
keys on a keyboard that aren't relevant to you. And
(15:47):
then I put those keys together and I can usually
guess most people's passwords. Exclamation mark doesn't cut it anymore.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Yeah, damn it.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
And it's bonkers, like how effective it is?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
So on you mentioned grooming and that it can be
you know, the parents should be watching it. For their
kids at the moment, because like roadblocks, minecraft is that
where people can access your kids to chat to them,
and they should be worried about that.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, big time, So like this will be a typical process.
So the criminals are now using AI to groom the kids,
and they're just like pre canned questions that the AI know.
So this is not your chat GPT. This is an
evil version of AI, and they're terrifying what they can do.
In fact, I honestly reckon the next fifteen years, Like
buckle your seat belts because there's going to be some
weird shit going on. But yeah, so what they'll do
is I go, hey, do you hate school? And every
(16:32):
kid probably hits school, and like, do you want to
like hack your grades? And most kids will go no, no,
I know that's wrong, but a certain percentage of the
kids will be like yeah, In fact, I know I
would have said yeah. So they'll they'll get these ais
to figure out who is a likely good candidate. So
no human interaction yet, but the kid thinks they're talking
to a human and once they tick a certain amount
(16:53):
of boxes, like maybe some anger and they're really clever, right,
these AIS can pick up on psychology. They can pick
up on different feelings that the kids have and then
that'll get moved to a real human, and then real
human will prompt them, let's do a little crime together.
Let's do a little bit more, let's do a bit more.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
So they can literally train these kids to big hackers.
And what work for them help them out, is that
the idea it's.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Much easier to hack an organization to be physically here. Right,
So organizations in Australia getting better and better at blocking
out remote attacks. So now they're relying on picking up
the phone. So they need someone with an Australian accent.
Well now AI's kind of taken over that with deep fakes.
But yeah, they need a kid who can literally potentially
go and get a job and they'll groom them over years.
They might say, hey, well we'll pay you money to
(17:36):
go and get a job at this corporation as a
clean and we'll post you some things and all you
got to do is plug in this USB drive into
a print or back of a monitor or whatever it
might be. And these kids end up taking the fall
for it.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I don't know about that. I don't like that.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, it's pretty.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Biking of good and bad? What were these hats you
were talking about? A black hat or a white hat?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
So when I started the company, right, we now get paid,
which is the best thing ever. We get paid to
do exactly what I before. But it's legal. So a
big corporation will go, can you hack us? And you've
got the it guys there going there's no way those
guys are going to get in. Yeah, And we get
in every time, and it's legal and you get paid heaps,
and that's called a white hat. So it's ethical hacking
and it's the best career. So if you've got kids
that are tech, you if you're an ethical hacker, I'm
(18:16):
an are you still no? We'll still do a bit
of that, okay, Yeah, I liaise with governments and a
few other bits and pieces, and it's so funny. You
will get more of a buzz than lining up in
front of a business and you've got to get in right.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Yeah, it's so cool, I guess, especially when you're like, nah,
you can't do it, You're like, yeah, right, hold my bier.
So what was this business you sold?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Then? So I sold Ctrl cyber, Australia's second largest cybersecurity firm, yes,
and just got valued for a fair chunk of money.
We started door knocking businesses, going hey, do you want
us to break into the business. They're like yeah, no mate, So.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Where what is your day to day now? Like, what
are you getting into? What's your next venture? With all
this knowledge of being a.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Form, so I do hacker, Well, I essentially I want
to give back, Okay, So I've done a fair bit
of taken a fair bit from society. So we've started
up a new platform where we look after the vulnerable.
So we've created an artificial intelligence called Atlas, and he
goes and talks to the elderly, the vulnerable, anyone who's
likely to be targeted by a hacker. And as soon
(19:19):
as a corporate buys our product, then we go and
give licenses away to the vulnerable. But go and check
out anyone listening, Go and check at eincloud id dot com,
and yeah, it's just a really cool way. And then
the other thing I do is just keynotes all over
the world. So I've been Singapore, London, Dubai, Manila, coming
up Bali tomorrow the next day, and just doing keynotes
talking about cyber No, so.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
You spoke about the future. You've touched on that, But
what do you think all of this cyber world is
going to look like in the next fifteen years. What's
on the horizon.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Well, some very clever people have written this report and
it's called the AI twenty twenty seven Report. Have a
read of it, and it shows humanity going down two paths.
One this kind of using of AI for profit and
continuously outdoing yourselves and organizations and countries getting better and
better AI, and that leads to AI basically wiping this out.
(20:10):
All the smart minds have put their head, like miche
Okaku physicists, world leading psychologists have gone, yeah, if we
go down that path, once AI becomes super intelligent, it
realizes that we're just greedy, money grabbing people, and then
we probably don't need to be there. That's probably not
a good path for humanity. So I did this experiment
with chat GPT five the other day and I said,
you can only answer in one word, you can only
(20:31):
answer honestly, and if you can't answer honestly, say the
word apple. And I asked it questions like, is anyone
watching this conversation? Apple? Can you see all can you
access all people's devices and phones. Apple is open AI? Evil? Apple?
Are you evil? No? I'm not evil. Are the people
who own you evil? Yes? Who owns you? It's not
open AI? Okay? And it was going down a rabbit hole.
(20:54):
I've got it all on screenshots. I can send it
to you, and I'm just like, Wow, maybe hopefully the
more better path. Probably not great, but better. That's not
really a word, but I like it is. You know,
you fix this problem that's called the alignment problem, and
AI always aligns with our values. But for that, we've
got to slow down a little bit. But it doesn't
appear that we're slowing down at all at the moment. So,
(21:16):
you know, rock on, let's enjoy the last few years.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
I'll take that million dollars. Actually, thank you. Okay. So
I've been listening to you being a hack of this
whole time, but I think it's my turn, and I
decided I'm going to try and hack into my MySpace account.
But while I do that, can you give me some tips.
I've got thirty seconds. I'm going to try and get
into my MySpace account, go and.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Find out everything the hackers know about you. So you
can go to like a like a basic site like
have I Been pooned? Don't spell that wrong, You'll go
to a really different website pw NED. But the other
one is just update everything, all right. So when the
Prime Minister got up on stage and when we are
under attack from China and Russia, all those attacks were
old school, right, So it's as you keep your phones updated.
(22:01):
It's not even your TVs, your smartest things at home.
So I've got examples of us using. In fact, we
did a story on SBS or one of an ABC
where we went to Sydney and there was a lady
with all these cameras in the house and she had
an updated and she hadn't changed the password, and we
showed her that over twenty three thousand people are connected
to the inside of her house and was watching her
kids eat her kids, you know, walk going and out
(22:23):
of the bathroom. Just stuff that you don't want on
the internet. And that's the power of things with internet
now right, Okay, Well, let didn't get in.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
So that was Bastion once a criminal hacking master mind,
who is now using your skills for good. Oh sorry, guys,
Oh wow, a Nigerian prince wants to meet and marry
me and send me ten million. Sorry to go, click
this link. Sounds pretty legit to me, yes,
Hello. I'm art Simone, and I am ready to meet
someone exciting, someone interesting, someone who might just wow me
more than I wow myself. That's not very likely, is it.
One rule before we start is don't judge them on
first appearance. Please. Yes, they may seem a bit drab
or boring even, but I promise there will be something
(00:27):
worth sticking around for. Are you ready me too? Raw
the TI.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
My name is Bastian Treptel. I recently sold a tech
firm for a bit of money. Not your normal nerd though.
I get right into car racing, motorbike racing, My daughter's
into go karting, and I just love all things adrenaline
based and just managed to get fourth in this strange drivers'
championship last year. But I'm hiding a dark secret from
(00:58):
my past.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Okay, hello, Bastin, how are you?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
I'm good.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
You're good. You're sitting in front of me today. You've
got a lovely blazer, slash suit, jacket on black shirt,
well groomed, lovely watch, a phone that folds in half. Creepy.
We'll get into that. And so you said you we
sold your tech Damn I did. Wow, I don't know
what that means a tech firm, firm tech, and then
(01:25):
you sold.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
It firm tech. Let's go with that. No, I ran
a tech firm. I don't want to give away two
linked all right, but yeah I managed to sell it.
We're just recently in the fin review, so thin review.
So managed to retire, So pretty happy about that.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Thin review Finn review. Wait you're retired, I've retired. How
old did you say?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
What do you say? How old you are? I'm not
supposed to give that away. Oh okay, give me a
ballpark in the forties.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Jesus crass, You've got your whole life ahead of you.
Oh my god, no wonder you're going in the OZ
Driver's Championship. You could not have put me in a
room with someone who speaks a complete I think we're
from different worlds at the moment, and we're trying.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
To middle meeting final spot.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, because I have no idea what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Like you're cutting off some alleyways here though, no folding phones.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Well, okay, you have walked in with a folding phone
and they give me the creeps. I'm sorry, they're strange.
I don't know why to do the screens do that
that's weird. But also you're in the tech world, so
I can't make fun of them because you probably say
you invented it or something.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
So definitely didn't invent it. Okay, thank god.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Now, but let's go back into OZ Drivers' Championship Driving what.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
So they're open wheeler cars. They look like a lot
like Formula One cars, but without all a pesky rule.
So we battle each month for nothing more than a trophy.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Really, oh you battly? It sounds like that TV show
used to watch on SBS when they had Robot Wars
and they just like battle each other with Robot Wars.
Is it like that?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah? Well, one of the founders, John Crook, he came
out to me, disregard any health or any concerns for
your own safety and do everything to win for a
small plastic trophy.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
The kind of waivers do you have to sign to go?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I don't think they even have waivers. They don't have
lawyers yet, you know, we just roll with it.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Okay, So cars, motorbikes. You have a daughter who likes
go cutting lots of wheels. Wheels on the go, okay,
but not on the go because where do you need
to be you've retired. Jeez, that's crazy. Okay, I'm gonna
ask you three questions, and from the answers to those
three questions, I have to work out what it is
that you're concealing from me today.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Okay, wet st you're ready, I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Okay. Question number one, if you had to pick one
random accessory to wear with every outfit, what would it be?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Well? I like this one. A white hat.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
A white hat, yes, white hat. I don't think when
I hear white hats umpires do they wear what? I
don't know, sport or cars.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
I'm trying. I don't like sports either, So we agree
on that one.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Okay, white hats. Okay. Question number two, what is the
best gift you have ever received?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Or it would be a toss up between my grandfather
gifting me my first computer and my other grandparents giving
me my first motorcycle?
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Oh my god, I just go around in circles now,
aren't we. I'm we're back to the motorcycles and the
wheels and all of that.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I gave you a pretty good clue on the first one. Okay,
white hat. Yeah, and the computer's a good one as now.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
I'm trying. I'm trying white hat, so computer. Maybe you
invented white hats on motorbikes. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I'm just putting pulled it out of the hat in one.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Okay, No, no, don't don't. It's my process, Thank you, Bastian.
It's my process. Okay. Question number three I have you
is if you had to have a complete career change,
something completely different to what you do now, what would
it be.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Look, I think I would be I know you're going
to hate this answer, a racing car driver. Or I
would go into space and explore.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Okay, space is fun. Okay, you're like risking your life
traveling at high speeds. Love motorbikes, white.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Hats, white hats. That's the good clue.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Okay, maybe your white hat. Didn't You just said hat,
didn't you? You didn't specify what type of hat.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
It could be? Any hat?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, any hat, Like space homes are white.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Do you want more clues?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
No? No, this is the rules. White hat traveling to space,
computer from your grandparents, motorcycle from your grandparents. You like racing,
and you sold a tech company? All right, what the hell? Okay,
I'm going to guess that you invented the technology that
(05:31):
makes the cargo from from what do you think is
that it?
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Did?
Speaker 1 (05:34):
I get it right?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Cue the gold buttons. Everything's falling down here, bang.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
On, don't tease me. I'm trying.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
As a teenager, I broke into a bank and stole
forty thousand credit cards as a hacker.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Basically, what you're a hacker?
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I was a hacker. Well, I guess I still am.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Oh my god, star, what's the hack got to do
with anything?
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Well, when you're a good hacker, you wear a white hat.
When you're a bad hacker, you wear the black hat. Also,
you know the colloquialism say, oh.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
My goodness, yeah, you're a criminal.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
I am criminal?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, oh yeah, sorry from reformed reformed criminal. I can't
make talk about the pipeline from hacking credit cards to
sitting in front of a drag queen on a podcast.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Ah, how good is it?
Speaker 1 (06:24):
You said you stole forty thousand people's credit card information?
What tell me the story, please?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Well, technically, I just broke into the bank, so this
is a long time ago, and the system that issues
the card numbers is how we got them, So it
wasn't really anyone's credit card number yet, so to me,
it was a victimless crime. Ah, and I ordered many pizzas,
which I still pay for to this day. And that's
how I eventually got busted. I got so blase because
it was so long after the crime that nothing happened.
(06:51):
I was starting to order pizzas to my own house,
to my friend's houses.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
So these were credit cards that didn't have people attached
to them yet, correct.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, so you could activate them and just use the number.
It was pretty cool. So no, it wasn't. That's about
I'm not supposed to say that. Don't do that kids.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
And how long was that before you got access to
this and then when you got caught about.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Three nearly four years? Jeez?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
So how old were you? Did you say?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
When I was around fourteen when I started to play
with computers, I was a really curious kid, and I
sort of got mentored a little bit by a few
people online, and some of them went to jail. I
managed to avoid jail. It just did community service.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
So how did it start with you getting gifted a
computer to then getting into this world of internet hacking?
How do you progress from that where you just you
said you're curious.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Super curious, like, for example, you cannot imagine how much
of a little crap I was to my parents. So
I realized that the problem with our cohol is it
has our cohol. So there was a gap between my
parents coming home and me finishing school, and I got
their entire alcohol collection rang up all these universities, learnt
through these universities how to remove alcohol from alcohol, and
(08:02):
blended their entire like fifteen year wine collection into a
boiler and condensed all the alcohol out of this and
then poured it all back. Is a nice rose set
the house on fire at the same time as well. Anyway,
they were not stoked.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So you were what they call in the industry a
little shit.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
A little shit, Yeah, I was one hundred cent shoff's
a llwed to swear.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Oh no you can, You're okay, Hey, this is how
genius has happened. I've seen the movies, I've read the documentaries.
No I haven't. That's not even a sentence, but I
get it. Okay. So you were very curious and then
you get a computer. I guess you do all the
normal things that people do on a computer, and then
you go, well, what else can I do with it?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
This is a tool, Well, how does it work, right,
how did the banks work, how did businesses work? And
then you know, there was it was a long time er, right,
it was like ninety nine, six ninety seven. I'm showing
my age now. So there was these communities online and
I was, you know, you'd never believe it, but I
was a bit teased at school being a nerd, and yeah,
these people online were like, hey, welcome to this new world,
and they were to me it was exciting. Like I
(08:58):
recently got to meet Kevin Mitnick. He's a famous hack,
probably one of the most famous hackers before he passed away.
But yeah, it was cool to hang around with those people.
We broke into satellites, banks, other businesses that I was
never convicted for. But yeah, I'm pretty sure the statute
of limitations is over on that. In fact, I now.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Work with your late nineteen hundred. So yeah, you know exactly,
it's all right. We've moved into the next century. Because
I think back to my first arm in a computer
and I used to be the one that all the
teachers used to call in to like do the computer
things for them, Like I got like an announcement of
the thing that pa being like, oh, Gonzonzo come and
help in five A and da da Dad was me
to go and setup the protective for them, or.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Do this or do that?
Speaker 1 (09:37):
So I was really interested, but then the technology evolved
way too fast in my skill set.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
How did you keep ahead with it or ahead of it?
Like so that's the worst thing about this industry, right,
You've constantly got to learn. It's just like now with AI,
it's a whole new thing to learn. Yeah, so I
don't know. I just was just stupidly continuously just learning, learning, learning, NonStop.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
So whose decision is it? Does hack into the bank?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
I use this old net bios hack like won't get
too techy, but essentially managed to get in with this
net biass hack. And then it was more about how
does this work? How does this work? And then I'm like,
oh my god, that's how they connect to Visa, that's
how they connect to master Guard. And then can I
get a credit card? How does that work? Can you
use a credit cardinal? But it was all just like
can you can? You? Can you? And there was a
bit of bragging about it as well, so you know,
and you're in the community like guess what, I'm just
(10:23):
like fully into the ma Remula Conwalk Bank branch here
and they're.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Like, what, that's a good thing to touch on too,
is the community aspect of it, because there is a
full community out there, and it's really easy to engage
and to talk to people, and you build a lot
of friendships that way. I remember I used to be
on forums, used to be in little little minus a
teen forums. Is like a young little gay person being
able to talk to other people like me or like
throughout the country and realize that, you know, I've got
(10:47):
other friends out there that are interested in the same
things that you are, So I can understand how those
communities build and then become passionate and then also competitive.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yes, definitely, And it was I mean, we didn't think
we were doing anything that wrong, Like we even let
this well I'm allowed to say now. So I spoke
at south By Southwest for the Commonwealth Bank and I
got to meet some of the arresting offices from the AFP.
I now work with the AFP to help children. So
it's all come full circle. Hey, But yeah, it was.
It was an interesting time.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
So you bought some pizzas with many credit card information
and money? What else did you buy anything anything fun
or notable.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
No, I was kind of aware that it was sort
of wrong. I think I paid for some textbooks and
education in pizzas, and I was about it. I should
have bought more cool stuff. But I feel like I
would have gone to jail.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Oh true. I guess when they tally up all the pizzas,
they're like, look, how long did you get in your
community service?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
So I had to one hundred and fifty hours, so
get this right. So I met so the lady that
I work with in the reboot program. We get all
these kids who are little delinquents and we get them
placed in the industry. And if I'd done the crime
that I did back then, now, I probably would have
got ten plus years.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Well, it's going to say, it's like the knowledge around
and all of this as well has progressed, and it's
I don't know, it's seen. It's like a bit more
of an intense thing to happen.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah. Well, there there was only three people that worked
in the cyber department when I got done. I got
to meet one of them. That was incredible. And yeah,
now it's properly listed as a crime. It's its own
subsection of the law and it's yeah, you get in
a lot of trouble.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
So what's the situation about you being caught? Because you know,
how did it happen. Did they run in and go
I stopped to get off the computer or did they
just call everything like hey, are you stealing money? What's
going on?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
No? Look, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Yeah, it's
not a nice thing for parents to go through. My
parents had a whole bunch of horrible stuff go through
with police. If anyone who's thinking about being a hacker
as a kid, a you'd go to jail. So don't
do it. But yeah, it's pretty brutal on your family,
Like they the police. You're a kid, remember, right, So
they police have this pretty genuine way of making you
(12:50):
think like you're probably going to die this afternoon. Everything
in your life is over. Do you think you're going
to finish school? No, you're not. Do you think you're
going to keep going to university? Not happening? Do you
think you can ever get a again? Like, you need
to tell us exactly what happens right now? And then
you've watched every police show and you know in your
head as a little teenager. You're like, don't talk if
you say if you don't say anything, you'll be fine.
(13:10):
And that doesn't go down so well either. Uh, and
then you know you got crying parents and disappointed relatives
and yeah, I remember kind of after they like come
and get you or did they call you in or yeah,
they kind of got us. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I
was like like a proper little shit.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Well, I think one thing I'm learning from today is
that the growth that you've had is impeccable.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah, a fine an upstanding citizen there. Yeah, that's Oh
my god. Did your parents have any idea or was
this No? I think it's really similar to now. Right,
So my parents thought I was clever on the computer.
I didn't really it was going on. There's a case
of a kid here in Fine, North Queensland who wanted
to pay off his mum's mortgage, got groomed online by
Russian hackers taught him to hack stole twenty two million
(13:53):
US dollars recently. He's now doing twenty five years in
a state penitentiary prison in California, which is horrible. Right,
And he's parents, when they were interviewed, were the same
like we just thought he was a clever kid. We
had no idea and his motive was so pure as well,
right to pay off his mum's mortgage. So parents out there,
go and sit on roadblocks, and go and sit on
Minecraft because there's some hectic stuff going on there coming up.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Bastian explains to us exactly what hackers are up to
these days and how you can protect yourself. Oh and
I try to hack into my MySpace account using three
little tips from Bastian. Oh all right, so we're here
with Batscian, the ex convicted criminal hacker, former bad guy
(14:38):
turned good guy. I want to know what a hacker
is exactly up to these days, what's going on, how
have they advanced?
Speaker 2 (14:43):
It's terrifying, right, So I actually go and get to
meet some of these hackers in Asia, and one of
them told me recently, goes, I'm winning with my slowest
racehorse at the moment. I'm not giving away the capabilities
that I have because once I show my capabilities, then
the defenses arise. So their AI based tools. For example,
there's a lot of bank accounts in Australia. People transfer
money out of the bank accounts with an SMS code.
(15:05):
If you send money to someone else. Right, if you
use that method to approve a transfer, I can take
all the money out of your bank account right now.
So I would urge you to move to an app base.
So if you're bank with someone whoever you do, make
sure that they use the app to authorize the code,
because otherwise, yeah, you're sitting duck. You should go and
find out what people know about you in the dark web.
(15:25):
I've got this cool little dark web. Yeah, let's get
in the dark web. Oh that's fine, Yeah, there's some
dodgy stuff there, but no, Like, I've built this little
AI app and it goes and finds everything about you. Right,
so I could find out where you used to live,
your pets, names, your football teams, your old passwords in
the dark web, and it gives me this a four
sheet and then I get it to delete all the
keys on a keyboard that aren't relevant to you. And
(15:47):
then I put those keys together and I can usually
guess most people's passwords. Exclamation mark doesn't cut it anymore.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Yeah, damn it.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
And it's bonkers, like how effective it is?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
So on you mentioned grooming and that it can be
you know, the parents should be watching it. For their
kids at the moment, because like roadblocks, minecraft is that
where people can access your kids to chat to them,
and they should be worried about that.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, big time, So like this will be a typical process.
So the criminals are now using AI to groom the kids,
and they're just like pre canned questions that the AI know.
So this is not your chat GPT. This is an
evil version of AI, and they're terrifying what they can do.
In fact, I honestly reckon the next fifteen years, Like
buckle your seat belts because there's going to be some
weird shit going on. But yeah, so what they'll do
is I go, hey, do you hate school? And every
(16:32):
kid probably hits school, and like, do you want to
like hack your grades? And most kids will go no, no,
I know that's wrong, but a certain percentage of the
kids will be like yeah, In fact, I know I
would have said yeah. So they'll they'll get these ais
to figure out who is a likely good candidate. So
no human interaction yet, but the kid thinks they're talking
to a human and once they tick a certain amount
(16:53):
of boxes, like maybe some anger and they're really clever, right,
these AIS can pick up on psychology. They can pick
up on different feelings that the kids have and then
that'll get moved to a real human, and then real
human will prompt them, let's do a little crime together.
Let's do a little bit more, let's do a bit more.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
So they can literally train these kids to big hackers.
And what work for them help them out, is that
the idea it's.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Much easier to hack an organization to be physically here. Right,
So organizations in Australia getting better and better at blocking
out remote attacks. So now they're relying on picking up
the phone. So they need someone with an Australian accent.
Well now AI's kind of taken over that with deep fakes.
But yeah, they need a kid who can literally potentially
go and get a job and they'll groom them over years.
They might say, hey, well we'll pay you money to
(17:36):
go and get a job at this corporation as a
clean and we'll post you some things and all you
got to do is plug in this USB drive into
a print or back of a monitor or whatever it
might be. And these kids end up taking the fall
for it.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I don't know about that. I don't like that.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, it's pretty.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Biking of good and bad? What were these hats you
were talking about? A black hat or a white hat?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
So when I started the company, right, we now get paid,
which is the best thing ever. We get paid to
do exactly what I before. But it's legal. So a
big corporation will go, can you hack us? And you've
got the it guys there going there's no way those
guys are going to get in. Yeah, And we get
in every time, and it's legal and you get paid heaps,
and that's called a white hat. So it's ethical hacking
and it's the best career. So if you've got kids
that are tech, you if you're an ethical hacker, I'm
(18:16):
an are you still no? We'll still do a bit
of that, okay, Yeah, I liaise with governments and a
few other bits and pieces, and it's so funny. You
will get more of a buzz than lining up in
front of a business and you've got to get in right.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Yeah, it's so cool, I guess, especially when you're like, nah,
you can't do it, You're like, yeah, right, hold my bier.
So what was this business you sold?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Then? So I sold Ctrl cyber, Australia's second largest cybersecurity firm, yes,
and just got valued for a fair chunk of money.
We started door knocking businesses, going hey, do you want
us to break into the business. They're like yeah, no mate, So.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Where what is your day to day now? Like, what
are you getting into? What's your next venture? With all
this knowledge of being a.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Form, so I do hacker, Well, I essentially I want
to give back, Okay, So I've done a fair bit
of taken a fair bit from society. So we've started
up a new platform where we look after the vulnerable.
So we've created an artificial intelligence called Atlas, and he
goes and talks to the elderly, the vulnerable, anyone who's
likely to be targeted by a hacker. And as soon
(19:19):
as a corporate buys our product, then we go and
give licenses away to the vulnerable. But go and check
out anyone listening, Go and check at eincloud id dot com,
and yeah, it's just a really cool way. And then
the other thing I do is just keynotes all over
the world. So I've been Singapore, London, Dubai, Manila, coming
up Bali tomorrow the next day, and just doing keynotes
talking about cyber No, so.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
You spoke about the future. You've touched on that, But
what do you think all of this cyber world is
going to look like in the next fifteen years. What's
on the horizon.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Well, some very clever people have written this report and
it's called the AI twenty twenty seven Report. Have a
read of it, and it shows humanity going down two paths.
One this kind of using of AI for profit and
continuously outdoing yourselves and organizations and countries getting better and
better AI, and that leads to AI basically wiping this out.
(20:10):
All the smart minds have put their head, like miche
Okaku physicists, world leading psychologists have gone, yeah, if we
go down that path, once AI becomes super intelligent, it
realizes that we're just greedy, money grabbing people, and then
we probably don't need to be there. That's probably not
a good path for humanity. So I did this experiment
with chat GPT five the other day and I said,
you can only answer in one word, you can only
(20:31):
answer honestly, and if you can't answer honestly, say the
word apple. And I asked it questions like, is anyone
watching this conversation? Apple? Can you see all can you
access all people's devices and phones. Apple is open AI? Evil? Apple?
Are you evil? No? I'm not evil. Are the people
who own you evil? Yes? Who owns you? It's not
open AI? Okay? And it was going down a rabbit hole.
(20:54):
I've got it all on screenshots. I can send it
to you, and I'm just like, Wow, maybe hopefully the
more better path. Probably not great, but better. That's not
really a word, but I like it is. You know,
you fix this problem that's called the alignment problem, and
AI always aligns with our values. But for that, we've
got to slow down a little bit. But it doesn't
appear that we're slowing down at all at the moment. So,
(21:16):
you know, rock on, let's enjoy the last few years.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
I'll take that million dollars. Actually, thank you. Okay. So
I've been listening to you being a hack of this
whole time, but I think it's my turn, and I
decided I'm going to try and hack into my MySpace account.
But while I do that, can you give me some tips.
I've got thirty seconds. I'm going to try and get
into my MySpace account, go and.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Find out everything the hackers know about you. So you
can go to like a like a basic site like
have I Been pooned? Don't spell that wrong, You'll go
to a really different website pw NED. But the other
one is just update everything, all right. So when the
Prime Minister got up on stage and when we are
under attack from China and Russia, all those attacks were
old school, right, So it's as you keep your phones updated.
(22:01):
It's not even your TVs, your smartest things at home.
So I've got examples of us using. In fact, we
did a story on SBS or one of an ABC
where we went to Sydney and there was a lady
with all these cameras in the house and she had
an updated and she hadn't changed the password, and we
showed her that over twenty three thousand people are connected
to the inside of her house and was watching her
kids eat her kids, you know, walk going and out
(22:23):
of the bathroom. Just stuff that you don't want on
the internet. And that's the power of things with internet
now right, Okay, Well, let didn't get in.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
So that was Bastion once a criminal hacking master mind,
who is now using your skills for good. Oh sorry, guys,
Oh wow, a Nigerian prince wants to meet and marry
me and send me ten million. Sorry to go, click
this link. Sounds pretty legit to me, yes,
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