Richard Triggs - Arete Executive | Confessions of a Recruiter #110

Ever wondered how a unique move like a "suicide shot" in Bangkok can shape a career? Join us as Richard Triggs, founder and CEO of Arete Executive, shares his remarkable journey in recruitment and talent management. With over 1,500 executives placed and a bestselling book under his belt, Richard brings an entertaining mix of anecdotes, career milestones, and wisdom on building a strong employer brand. Discover strategies for attracting top talent, creating a culture of love and accountability, and the power of personal branding that extends even to his musical pursuits.

Uncover the hidden gems of writing a book as Richard reveals how his bestseller has not only served as a guide for job seekers but also as a powerful networking tool. His experience with the Key Person of Influence program shines a light on mastering key business areas from pitching to publishing. Although offering free resources comes with its challenges, Richard's insights into perceived value and audience engagement offer a fresh perspective for professionals looking to leverage content for credibility. Additionally, his aspirations in professional speaking underscore his passion for sharing his industry knowledge.

In a candid discussion about the recruitment industry's challenges, Richard tackles common misconceptions and highlights the critical role of personal relationships. He advocates for the human element in recruitment, cautioning against the over-reliance on technology and AI. With a narrative rich in personal anecdotes and industry insights, the conversation covers mentorship, the nuances of internal versus external recruitment, and the evolving dynamics between global and boutique recruitment firms. Whether you're a seasoned recruiter or new to the field, this episode promises a wealth of knowledge and a fresh take on the art of talent management.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
You've been there, you've done that.
You've walked the walk, you'vetalked the talk.
You've helped a lot of peoplego do it.
I'm pretty committed to doing af***ing good job.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hello folks, my name is Richard Triggs and I'm the
founder and CEO of AritaExecutive.
You definitely don't want tomiss this episode.
There'll be lots to learn, notonly if you're new to the
recruitment industry or ifyou're an old fossil like me all

(00:30):
right, welcome back to anotherepisode of confessions of a
recruiter, trigsy.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
This is our third time chatting mate.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
How good is this?
Well, it's our second timeone-on-one one-on-one yeah, and
confessions live.
That was an event I was comingin, I was going oh my god, am I
gonna have to hit that bloodygolf ball into the hole again?

Speaker 1 (00:44):
But fortunately I don't have to do that anymore.
We didn't bring that intoSeason 3?
Is that something we shouldbring back?

Speaker 3 (00:49):
We've actually got a new version of that.
It's called the boomerang throwReally, and so what we have to
do is go outside on the streetand throw a boomerang and catch
it again.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
Do you know what I?

Speaker 3 (01:00):
was going to do.
You know what I?

Speaker 1 (01:01):
was going to do.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
I was going to come in and challenge you guys to do
a suicide shot.
Have you ever done a suicide?

Speaker 3 (01:07):
shot.
What's?

Speaker 1 (01:08):
that.
You've done a tequila shot Inthe eye snort the thing Right.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
So, instead of licking the salt, drink the
tequila and suck the lemon.
You snort the salt, you drinktequila and then you squeeze the
lemon in your eye.
Oh lovely.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
How many tequila shots have you done after 16
years in business?

Speaker 2 (01:27):
A few.
But I just went on holidayswith 10 of my mates, for a 50th
to Bangkok, and there were 10 ofus for 10 days and there was no
trips to hospital, there wasnobody went to jail, nobody got
a face tattoo.
So I feel that you know it wasa win.

(01:48):
But I was introduced to thesuicide shot while I was there.
I'm going to say I like itReally.
I'm a bit of a fan now, I thinkit's going to be my signature
move.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
Oh okay, well, maybe we'll have to do a suicide shot
after the potty.
Yeah, sounds good.
Maybe next year we're off theboost.
Stay accountable.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
All right.
So, mate, I'm just going topump you up for a bit here.
Okay, you happy with that?
Sure, sure.
So over the last 15 years,richard Triggs and his team have
placed over 1,500 executivesand board to find their job
searches and get better.
You're also the best sellingauthor of Uncover the Hidden Job

(02:29):
Market how to Find and Win yourNext Senior Executive Role,
which you created a secondedition in 2023.
And we're here today becauseyou're releasing Winning the War
for Talent and how to Attractand Retain Top Performers.
And how to attract and retaintop performers.
He also hosts the Arate podcast, with over 200 episodes.

(02:50):
So mate I think me and Blake canlearn something off you here,
and also winning the War onTalent podcast.
Beyond recruitment, you're anaccomplished musician.
What musical instrument do?

Speaker 2 (02:59):
you play Singer-guitarist If you look on
Spotify Richard Triggs.
I've got two albums on Spotifyand I've just started recording
my third one.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
Nice, and then you're a psychotherapist.
What is that?

Speaker 3 (03:14):
Oh it just.
You know A psychotherapist,does that just mean?

Speaker 2 (03:18):
you've been in recruitment for a long time.
Well, I mean.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
Like a psychotic therapist.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
So I'll talk to you more about it offline, all right
, all right, but basically I dida four-year training program to
be a psychotherapist.
So the difference between apsychotherapist and a
psychiatrist is a psychiatristcan prescribe drugs.

(03:44):
A psychotherapist is like acounsellor, I suppose.
They can't prescribe drugs.
I did a very specific kind ofpsychotherapy and I didn't do it
because I had any interest inbeing a psychotherapist.
But what I've been able tobring over into my recruitment

(04:06):
career has been invaluable.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
Nice, awesome.
And then so, mate, there's twomassive areas which I did a
summary on your book and what Icame to is the you're going to
present throughout this book astep-by-step mythology for
hiring, retaining top talent,but essentially correct me if
I'm wrong but it's divided intotwo sections.
So attracting top performers.
So this section guides leaderson building their brand as an
employer of choice, which Ithink personal brand is a
gateway for that Creating stronghiring briefs, using effective

(04:37):
sourcing strategies likereferrals, advertising,
headhunting.
It also covers interviewingtechniques, background checks,
managing offers to preventcounter offers we all know how
much they hurt Making a hiringstructured and an easy to follow
process.
And then part two is retainingtop performers.
It's all well and good to goout there and get them, but
you've got to become the personbefore you can keep them.

(04:58):
So this is a section whichemphasizes fostering a culture
of love and accountabilitywithin organizations, starting
with leadership.
It explores how subconsciousbehavioral patterns influence
performance and introduces thepreferred reality framework.
So it'd be cool to be able tobreak that down with you, sure,
um, which is a tool that you'vepersonally created?

(05:18):
Is that Trigsy's IP?

Speaker 2 (05:20):
uh look, I'd be lying if I said that any of it was
really my IP.
What I've been able to do overmy entire career not just in
recruitment is find tools thathave worked for me and that I've
taught to other people and beenable to bring that into a

(05:44):
pretty practical methodologythat people can implement.
So what I make sure I do iseach time I use a model or
something that I've learned fromsomebody, I'll reference them
and say I learned this from mymate, Colin Clark or Tim Dwyer

(06:04):
or whoever it is, but there'sreally nothing new in the world.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
No, no, you've just got to be a good conduit and be
able to get the big informationdown to the people that look up
to you.
That's right.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
And you've got to be able to do it in a way that the
people who are taking on theinformation not only can absorb
it, but can actually implementit, because what's the point in
learning something if you don'tdo anything?

Speaker 1 (06:32):
Exactly, it's all about who can ask the best
questions to get the bestanswers, and then who can take
the massive action and thenrepeat it.
But that's for a whole othertopic.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
Sure, I've actually got a question Before we dive
any further.
One thing that I'd love forpeople to know is who are you
writing the book for?

Speaker 2 (06:49):
Well, okay, so a bit of a.
This is not a short story, butI think it will make sense.
So back into.
So I started my business in2009, and then in 2014, I went
and did a one-year course calledKey Person of Influence, which

(07:10):
is now called Dent, andbasically, to be a key person of
influence in your industry, youneed to master five P's.
So, number one you need tomaster your pitch.
Number two, you need to publishfor credibility.
One, you need to master yourpitch.
Number two, you need to publishfor credibility.
Number three, you need todevelop what they call a product

(07:34):
architecture so that you canmake money from your IP.
Number four, you need to buildprofile, social media profile,
blah, blah.
And number five developpartnerships so you know people
who can refer you, work and viceversa.
And so, anyway, I did thiscourse and it was awesome.
I loved it.
And in the publish element, Idecided to write a book Uncover

(08:00):
the Hidden Job Market forexecutives and board directors
but predominantly executives onhow do you actually go about
finding a job, because mostexecutives are really, really
good at being a CFO or a COO orwhatever, but when it comes to
looking for a job, they'rehopeless.
So I wrote this book and itnever made any money.

(08:25):
Mind you, I've probably sold,or given away, I'd say, 20,000
copies now, wow.
And I wrote a new version in2023, kind of the post-COVID
version.

Speaker 1 (08:40):
Why do books not make money?
Like Greg Savage said, he makes$1 from his book, the.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
Savage Truth.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
Right.
How come books don't make money?

Speaker 2 (08:50):
Well, firstly, I'd be surprised if he makes a dollar.
He might make a dollar if it'sthrough a third-party publisher.
And you know, by the time theytake out their marketing costs
and distribution costs and blah,blah, blah, you know he's left
with a buck.
It's like I'm a musician, right, I've got two albums on Spotify

(09:12):
, but I've never made any moneyfrom selling music, I mean
playing gigs.
Sure, you write a book, becausea book is like a business card
on steroids.
So if I am meeting with asenior executive and I go here's

(09:33):
my book on how to find a job,then at an intuitive or
subconscious level, they go wow,richard must really know what
he's on about because he wrotethe book right.
Wow, richard must really knowwhat he's on about because he
wrote the book right.
So, anyway, so I wrote thisbook.
And then the best thing aboutthat book, right, and one of the

(09:59):
things that really pissescandidates off is they ring a
recruiter and they go oh, fred,I'd love to come and have a
meeting with you because I'mlooking for a new job and I want
you to.
You know, help me to find a newjob.
And Fred the recruiter, ofcourse, because Fred wants to be
a good guy and he wants to beof service, which is wonderful.
He meets with the candidate andhe says oh, you're such a good

(10:21):
candidate, I'm going to placeyou and you know.
And then the candidate neverhears from him ever again.
He never gets a return phonecall, he never gets a reply to
an email and the candidate getspissed off because they go.
Well, hang on a second.
You know, I went in there, Itook the time to go in and have

(10:43):
this meeting.
This recruiter blew all thissmoke up my butt and now they've
done nothing, whereas what I dois I go, fred, I can't meet you
, right, I'm sorry.
I get 30 calls a week frompeople like you wanting to meet
with me, and if I was to meetall of you, I would just make no

(11:05):
money.
So what I'll do instead is I'llsend you a copy of my book for
free.
I'll send you three webinarsfor free.
I'll send you a whole bunch ofother resources for free.
I run a networking drinks eventonce a month for free.
I run breakfast groups.
I run this, I run that, I runthis, I run that.

(11:26):
I do this.
So the candidate, instead ofgoing Richard, over-promised and
under-delivered, it's like well, richard didn't meet with me
but, far out, he gave me so muchvalue that when, hopefully, the
candidate gets the job, they gowell.
One of the only recruiters thatactually helped me with Richard

(11:47):
.
So I need a new chief marketingofficer now I'm going to give
Richard the job, right.
Okay, so that's why I wrotethat book.
Awesome, and it bought me somuch time.
Right, you think about how muchtime you waste.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
Well, perfect topics, because I want to go in on that
.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
Just before we do that, just because the question
was why did I write that book,right?
So, anyway, in 2023, I said,look, I need to write a sort of
a post-COVID version of thatbook.
So I went and did an authorretreat with a guy named Andrew

(12:28):
Griffith in Tasmania who'samazing, and if anybody wants an
introduction, I'll happily dothat.
And then the next stage isabout becoming a professional
speaker, and I'm thinking tomyself well, I really want to do
professional speaking, becauseif you're good, you can make a
lot of money, and I don't knowif you've already noticed about

(12:52):
me, but I love the sound of myown voice, right.
But the thing is, candidateswon't pay for anything, right?
I do this workshop every month.
It's called Ask Me Anything,and so it's for candidates to
come on and they can literallyask me anything about their job
search and I will answer.

(13:13):
And so I said it's free, it'sonce a month, and I would get
180 people subscribe and saythey're coming, and then six
people would show up because itwas free.
So I went this is garbage.
So I said, all right, I'm goingto make it $18 plus GST, so

(13:36):
$19.80, but I'm going to donate100% of the money to charity.
So I'm not making any money, Ijust want you to have some skin
in the game, so at least youshow up.
And it went from 180 people amonth subscribing or RSVPing to

(14:00):
12.
Now these are $200,000candidates and they're not even
prepared to spend 20 bucks, youknow, to have an hour or two
hours with me.
I mean that's insanity, right.
So I'm sitting there and I hadthis blinding flash of the

(14:21):
obvious moment.
It's like well, who's going topay me the money?
The employer, right.
The candidates won't pay meanything.
Because candidates God blessyou.
You know you don't valuerecruiters, right.
But so I went okay.
Well, if I want to speak atconferences to employers, like

(14:46):
if I want to go and do a keynoteat the Australian Institute of
Company Directors or whatever,then I need to write a book to
give me the credibility to bethe leading authority on how to
attract and retain talent.
So instead I went okay,180-degree pivot.

(15:10):
Mind you, at the same time I'mrunning a recruitment company,
I'm doing a podcast, blah, blah,blah.
So this wasn't easy.
So I did a pivot and I wentokay, I'm going to write a book
for the employer, right.
And now I speak at the CEOInstitute.
I speak at Vistage.
I'm speaking to 200 accountants.

(15:32):
Next week, I'm being flown to aconference next month to speak
to, you know, 150 people,because I'm speaking to the
employer.
Yeah, let's.
And so that's why so long storyshort.
Why did I write that book?
It's a brochure.

Speaker 3 (15:54):
Okay, it's fantastic.
So the purpose is to get moreleads, more credibility, more
authority.
More leads get your foot in thedoor to more business.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
Most employers are terrible at recruiting.
So I even say, like the book iscalled Winning the War for
Talent.
But I don't actually believethere's a war for talent.
I believe there are companieswhich are really good at
recruiting and then mostcompanies are terrible at

(16:24):
recruiting.
Good at recruiting, and thenmost companies are terrible at
recruiting.
So I wrote the book to educatecompanies on how to recruit
themselves much moresuccessfully.
So I didn't write it from theperspective of you know, you
must come and use ArateExecutive or you must use third
party recruiters, becauseinternal recruitment is never

(16:46):
going to go away.
But the problem is, you knowthey're under-trained, they're
poorly managed.
Often they're working on 40 to60 jobs at a time.
You know one simple thing whichI think we've spoken about
before they write ads for jobsthey don't even put their name
or phone number on an ad andit's like these simple things

(17:10):
and you go.
If only you knew how theseminor shifts in what you do will
vastly improve your ability torecruit.
So the book is written for theemployer to recruit themselves.
But of course there's going tobe a time where they go oh, we

(17:32):
need a chief marketing officeror we've got this role that
we've been trying to fill and wehaven't been able to fill it.
Hey, I saw Richard speak atthis conference.
I read Richard's book.
He's a leading authority onhiring.
So, hey, richard, will yourecruit this role?
So in a sense it's a leadmagnet.

(17:56):
Yeah, yeah, love that, but notan in-your-face one.
It's let me give, give, give.
There's this marketing guy.
I think his name's GaryVanderchuck you know that guy.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah, give twice jab jab hook.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, jab jab, jab hook or whatever it is.
So he's basically saying yougive, give, give, give give.
And then you ask Yep, andthat's always been my philosophy
.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
Love that and recruiters listening they really
want to be able to get to thatstage.
But there is a whole journeythat you've had to go through to
get there.
So, if we peel it all the wayback, what was your thought
process on thinking I shouldtake on the challenge of writing
a book?
Like where did this come from?
Do you remember the moment intime where you were sitting
there and you had this lightbulb thought in your head and

(18:44):
saying I need to write my firstbook?

Speaker 2 (18:48):
Well, I think, firstly, like most people, I
just fell into recruiting.
You know I'd done a businessdegree, I'd worked in, you know,
a commercial business.
I was doing an executive MBA.
I decided time for a change.
I went to see a recruiter atthe time Hudson or TMP Worldwide

(19:11):
at the time.
They were called and his namewas Craig Sneasby.
And Craig Sneasby said oh, haveyou ever thought about being a
recruiter?

Speaker 1 (19:20):
And I went oh no, Craig Sneasby got you into
recruitment and I went oh, no,craig.

Speaker 2 (19:23):
Sneasby got you into recruitment.
Well, we can have a very longoffline conversation about that.
But yeah, craig Sneasby, Ijoined his team, right, and it
was a bit of a funny situationbecause I think he was 24 and
had never managed anybody and Iwas 36 and came from managing

(19:44):
750 people and I think it wouldbe fair to say that.
You know we had a challengingrelationship.
But now I have the highestrespect for Craig and if I ever
see him around town we alwayssay g'day.
And you know he always looksbeautifully polished and
immaculate in his suit and Ialways look like a scruff who

(20:08):
just crawled out of a dumpster.
But anyway, so I joinedrecruitment and again, long
answer to your question Irealised like I was there, in
the first 12 weeks 14 recruitersresigned.
Right, the turnover was massive.

(20:29):
And then within three months Irealised to be better than nine
out of 10 recruiters.
You've only got to do one thingreturn people's phone calls,
that's it.
So I just said rain, hail orshine, I will not go home until
I return everybody's phone call.
And even today people go.

(20:50):
Oh my God, I can't actuallybelieve that you returned my
phone call because recruitershave got such a terrible
reputation for that.
So I think what it's been forme is it's been okay.
How do I make myself morevaluable?
You know, and one of the waysto make myself more valuable was

(21:15):
to actually teach people.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
This is what you need to do if you want to find a job
, yeah, but how did you come tothe conclusion to value yourself
first?

Speaker 2 (21:28):
how did I come to the conclusion to value myself
first.
Well, I suppose, prior to doingthat course Key Person of
Influence I had no aspiration towrite a book.
But what they said was if youwant to master these five Ps and
be a key person of influence,you've got to publish for

(21:50):
credibility.
So I thought to myself well,what is a book that I can write
that I actually know what I'mtalking about, right?
So trying to write a book on,you know, being a beekeeper when
I've never been a beekeeperwould have been, you know,
terrible.
But you know, I was able towrite a 35 000 word book about

(22:14):
how to find a job and, um, thefeedback was fantastic.
Um, and even today, to give youone example, I'm sure he won't
mind um, I was talking to peterlock the other day, uh, who was
the ce CEO of Heritage Bank andhe's retired and he wants to get
board roles.

(22:34):
And I said oh, peter, if youread my book, uncover the Hidden
Job Market.
He said, nah, so I put a copyof it in the mail to him and he
literally emailed me the nextweek and he went Richard, I've
read your book in one sittingand literally within one week
I've already got my first boardroll.
Awesome, you know.

(22:59):
So you know I get a bitemotional because it's awesome,
mate, the impact.

Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yep, that's what we're all here for.

Speaker 2 (23:05):
My view is, if I'm happy and helpful, the universe
will look after me.
So all I want to be is happyand helpful.
So if you talk about this book,so I'll give you an example.
I ran this workshop for CEOs onhow to hire more effectively

(23:29):
and this one CEO said look, Ican't attend, can I send my head
of HR and my head ofrecruitment?
And so send these people along?
And I went okay.
So what's going on for you?
What's the pebble in your shoe?
And they went we've got 40mission-critical roles and we

(23:49):
can't fill any of them and wedon't know what to do.
I went okay, well, let's breakit down.
So you know, I use a particularway of taking a brief called
Performance-Based Hiring, whichcomes from a guy named Lou Adler
, who you may or may not haveheard of, and it talks about

(24:11):
when you're briefing a role.
You want to understand what arethe key deliverables of the
first three, six and 12 months.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
Can we describe this?
Say we pick a job.
Can we go through this processwith you now?

Speaker 3 (24:27):
Let me come back to that right.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
So I say to these people so do you get briefed?
And they go no, no, no, no, no.
The hiring manager just givesus a PD and says look, can you
give me a shortlist by you know,next Friday?
Average briefing might be 10minutes.

(24:49):
This is a job I want, anengineering manager.
It's 180K, it's based inBundaberg and I need somebody
who's built bridges and go forit, right.
So they take a crap brief.
Now how can an internalrecruiter deliver or any

(25:10):
recruiter deliver, a qualityshortlist if they don't even
know what they're recruiting,right?
So then I go okay, great.
So then when you write your ads,you're writing a very generic
ad based on a PD, because theydon't know anything about it.
Most ads that are written,there's no what's in it.

(25:33):
For me it's just oh, we've gotthis job, and blah, blah, blah.
And you should feel honouredhonoured that if you apply for
it, we might possibly considerinterviewing you.
And so they write these shitads.
And I go do you put your nameand your phone number on the ad?
No, why not?
Well, we don't.

(25:55):
Not that they necessarily sayit as bluntly as this.
We don't really want candidatesto ring us.
I go, hang on a second.
You've got 40 mission criticalroles that you can't fill and
you don't put your name andphone number on an ad Like are
you a freaking moron, right.

(26:16):
And then I go okay, what's theaverage time between somebody
submitting an application andgetting a phone call for an
interview?
Oh, about three weeks, right.
And so you listen to this andI'm sure you guys have heard all
this before and you go thesepeople are so stupid.

(26:36):
You know, a company says ourgreatest asset is our people,
and yet their investment infinding quality people is
rubbish and they're probablypaying an HR manager $150,000
and a talent acquisition personI don't know what they're paid

(26:57):
now $100,000, $120,000.
Probably combined income,including on-cost and so on,
$300,000.
They've got 40 mission criticalroles.
They can't do their job.
The CEO is probably goingbananas, and yet here are these
freaking idiots who don't evenknow how to recruit a job.

(27:19):
So I went I have to write abook.
I have to write a book and Imean I say some terrible things.
So one of the things that I sayand I've said this on your
podcast before, because I know,because you did a little thing
about it one of the things I sayis internal recruitment is

(27:42):
where crap recruiters go to dieright, we're going to clip that
up and we're going to post it onLinkedIn as a poll.
You're very welcome to.

Speaker 3 (27:50):
Okay.
Why do you say that?

Speaker 2 (27:51):
Why?
Because if you're a third-partyrecruiter, I mean, I've got a
recruit in my team.
She's mid-30s, she works fromhome.
Last year she earned $350,000.
Why would she go in-house?

Speaker 3 (28:09):
Maybe she wants to not have to do bd so interesting
enough.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
Interesting though, yeah, we, we can have a whole
conversation about that team.

Speaker 2 (28:20):
You know so sure.
So people go I'm in a thirdparty uh recruitment environment
.
I work for arate or I work forHayes or I work for wherever.
I don't like doing BD, I don'tlike the pressure of KPIs and I
think it's going to be easierfor me to go in-house and work

(28:46):
for ADK.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
Yeah, I know that's the surface of what we all think
, but like we spoke at anASX-listed company last year
down in Sydney and we werediscussing personality profiling
based off DISC D-I-S-C.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah, DISC.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, so we surveyed the entire room.
There was about 150 peoplethere.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
Recruiters typically are Ds, is and Ss.
Sometimes you'll get a C, butnot very often True.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
I did it with my team when I was at Davidson's and it
was high D, incredibly high.
I middling S, no C.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
Exactly so.
We went around the entire roomand we profiled the entire room.
What was the number one mostcommon personality for an
internal recruiter?
Probably completely the reverse, exactly.
So, is there a place inrecruitment?
Not that they're shit, they'rea different personality type
that appeals Okay.

Speaker 3 (29:47):
I'm not saying you're shit.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
I know you're not saying they're shit, but it's a
different personality type thatis required to do a different
style of recruitment away fromagency work.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yes, you're absolutely true.
So you're absolutely correct.
So, for example, in my businessI have senior partners who are
client-facing, BD, key accountmanagement, and I have associate
partners who fill the jobs.
Okay.
And if you are a senior partner, you go out, you win the job,

(30:21):
you bring it in, you give it toan associate partner and very
rarely would an associatepartner want to be a senior
partner or vice versa.
Okay.
So I agree with you completely.
So to give more context to whatI'm saying, if somebody has been
a recruiter and then theychoose to go in-house, largely

(30:45):
it's because they've beenunsuccessful as an external
recruiter.
So when I say their internalrecruitment is where crap
recruiters go to die right, Isuppose what I'm really saying
is that really really greatrecruiters would never want to

(31:06):
go in-house, because why wouldyou go in-house and make $80,000
when you can work externallyand make $300,000?
It doesn't make sense.
The other thing I say is thatrecruitment is not HR,
Recruitment is sales, right?
So when companies have earlycareerist HR professionals and

(31:32):
they go oh, come and join, picka name, any name, Rio Tinto,
Come and join Rio Tinto, you cando internal recruitment for a
couple of years and then youmight move into being an HR
business partner or whatever.
Recruitment is not HR.
Recruitment is I have to sellthe employer on why I'm the

(31:53):
person to recruit the job.
I have to sell the candidate onwhy they want the job, and then
I have to sell the employer onwhy they want to hire the
candidate.
It's a sales job, Exactly.
There's no HR in recruitmentother than the fact that you're
selling a human body rather thana house.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
And that's why sales roles are typically conditioned
and done really well by peoplethat work within that genius,
that have a certain personalitytype.
That's why if you're a goodrecruiter, you're likely to be a
great recruiter.
A great you're more oftenyou're likely to be a great
recruiter and have an insanecareer, like what it's done for
all of us in this room.
But if your personality doesn'talign to that, there is a, I'm

(32:40):
for sure if they, if there was abetter education within the
industry which is hopefully thispodcast brings some attention
to that but if there was abetter education in the industry
, where people actually knewwhat was in our heads and they
could link that together,internal talent acquisition
teams would feel more confident.
Sure, they'd feel more roles,because this, like we're in,
like a CEO, what matters to himis return on investment, risk

(33:03):
opportunity, the internal talentacquisition team don't
understand that so then theycan't communicate to the hiring
managers.
That's how you get this hugeproblem with unfilled roles,
because having 40 roles out.

Speaker 2 (33:12):
Yeah, I now, as a result of that book, I go to
companies and I present to theirELT this is how to run a really
good recruitment process.
And then they hire me to coachtheir head of talent acquisition
for typically three to fourmonths to actually do a good job

(33:35):
, right?
But so everything you're sayingis absolutely true,
understanding that, thenon-sales recruiter okay, who
pick a title any title talentacquisition really at the end of

(33:56):
the day, they're anadministrator, they're an admin
person.
Okay, and you're right.
But you look at our industry andone of the terrible things
about our industry is thatthere's no qualification,
there's no accreditation.
There's no qualification,there's no accreditation,
there's no barrier to entry.
Any idiot can produce abusiness card that says I'm an

(34:20):
executive recruiter and all of asudden they're wandering around
town telling people that's whatthey are.
And you've got companies like,okay, hayes, who a lawyer, will
come and say you know what?

(34:41):
I hate these six-minuteincrements, you know I'm so
bored of being a lawyer and theygo why don't you become a legal
recruiter?
Honestly, you'll changepeople's lives, you'll get them
jobs.
It's so amazing, you'll make somuch money and they go.
Oh, actually, you know, thatsounds really cool.

(35:03):
So they come and they be alegal recruiter or an accounting
recruiter or an engineeringrecruiter or whatever it is, and
then, as soon as they come inHayes go.
Okay, you need to make 50marketing calls a week, you need
to do 12 visits, you need topick up 20 contingent jobs and
suddenly hit them with all ofthese sales KPIs because it's a

(35:25):
sales job and within six monthstime that person goes.
What the freaking hell did I do?
Why did I become a recruiter?
And I can't remember thestatistic specifically, but it
is something like 90% of peoplewho enter the career of
recruitment leave within twoyears, never to return.

(35:49):
And that is because recruitmentcompanies it's a bit like the
old saying plumbers have theworst pipes or the cobbler's
kids have no shoes Recruitmentcompanies are the worst at
recruiting recruiters, includingme.
Right, and one of the bigissues is recruitment companies.

(36:09):
They just tell lies.
They lie to the prospectiverecruiter about what it actually
means to be a recruiter.

Speaker 1 (36:20):
They lie or they give their version of their
perception of what reality is.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
What's the difference ?

Speaker 3 (36:27):
Well, one is based on their truth and one is, being
facetious, being misleading onpurpose.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
I would say probably.
There's a spectrum of some whooutright lie through to some who
actually believe what they'resaying, which is largely crap.
How do?
You know, that as a candidate.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
No, how do you know that?
Recruiters are generally shitat recruiting for themselves.
They lie, they pretend it'samazing when someone gets in
it's shit and they leave.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
Because I've been in the industry for 20 years and I
wouldn't trust 98% of recruitersto walk my dog right Now.
There are excellent recruitersto walk my dog right Now.
There are excellent recruiters.
Excellent, there are people whoinvest in their ongoing

(37:26):
professional development, who dothings to stand out above the
crowd, crowd who, um, you know,legitimately care and, um, want
to be the best version of arecruiter that they can be.
But if you were to look at therecruitment industry and say how
many people truly are that?
Okay, I know you guys are a lotyounger than me, so I'm 57 and

(37:51):
nearly 57 and old and cynical,but there's not many, right,
there's not a lot of.
You know, I've done a Bachelorof Commerce, I've done an
Executive MBA.
I did the KPI course.
I've written two books.
I'm a member of the AICD.
I'm a member of the AICD.

(38:14):
I'm a member of the BrisbaneClub.
You know I run.
I'm a member of Vistage, whichis formerly called Tech.
You know, I don't know if youknow about that.
It's like a mastermind groupfor business owners.
I run my own version of theBrisbane Club.
This is the second podcast I'vebeen on today, right, and I'm

(38:41):
not saying I'm amazing, but Itell you what I'm pretty
committed to doing a fuckinggood job.
Well, do you know why Do?

Speaker 1 (38:46):
I know why yeah.

Speaker 3 (38:47):
Why are you so committed?

Speaker 1 (38:48):
Because I love it, yeah.
But Trigsy mate, like you're atthe top of the advice pyramid,
you've been there, you've donethat, you've walked the walk,
you've talked the talk, you'vehelped a lot of people go do it.
Having been at the top of anadvice pyramid is the most
important place to be.
Then there's the coaches who'vebeen, you know, helped, mentor
other people.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
I hear what you're saying.
Okay, so my book Uncover theHidden Job Market.
Basically, the premise is 80%of the best jobs never get
advertised, they never get to arecruiter, they're never in the
open job market.
Okay, employers instead hirethrough the hidden job market,

(39:33):
which means they find somebodywho can solve their problems and
take away their pain, and theyhire them even if they don't
have a vacancy right.
Okay, so what I preach in thatbook is what you need to do is
identify your employer of choice.
Identify, within thatorganisation, who you would most

(39:55):
likely report to, and reach outto them and ask them for a
meeting.

Speaker 1 (40:00):
Well, how about we break that down for recruiters,
because I'm sure they've Okay.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
So just to finish this point, and we will.
Okay so I've had Arate for 16years.
I've sold 20,000 copies of thatbook.
I'm sure you would agree.
I have a reasonable reputationin the market.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
That's why I brought up the advice pyramid, because
you're at the top, okay right.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
How many recruiters in 16 years have reached out to
me and said hey, richard, Ireally like what you're doing.
I'd love to come and work withyou and learn from you.
16 years how many?

Speaker 1 (40:37):
None.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
None, and I'll tell you why.

Speaker 1 (40:41):
Because, finishing the advice letter, there's other
people around you like you'llhave mates in recruitment, like
Paul, for example, and his wife.
They're obviously doingsomething similar running a
great business, oh, paulBelliger.
Yeah, with Lime.
And then below that there'speople who have witnessed other
people do what they want to dobut they've never actually done
it themselves.
And then there's friends,family, colleagues who voice

(41:01):
their opinions and get advice.
And then number six is peopleon the internet, which we all
have experienced.
People on the internet right,we don't ever want to.
People revolve around takingadvice from people that are
number five and number six onthe advice ladder and they
wonder why they never get ahead.
So, although the missing gap toget recruiters to reach out to
you is teach them how to reachout to you, like what you've

(41:22):
done with that, like what you'vedone with these people, I think
that would be the missing linkfor you.
If you can break down, this ishow you reach out to me as a
recruiter, so you can get numberone top advice from Richard
Triggs on how to become the bestrecruiter and work at Arate.
But everyone hovers around fiveand six.
They read the internet, theyread reviews, they get
perceptions, I know, and as aresult and they never actually
get to someone at the top.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
And, as a result, without naming any names-.

Speaker 1 (41:45):
Our industry stays low level with no progression.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
You would go.
There are certain recruiters inbrisbane that work for a year
for davidson's and then a yearfor manpower, and then a year
for this company, and then ayear for that company and then a
year for that company.
It's like, dude, just pick alane like invest, find somebody
that you actually admire and goand work for them.

Speaker 1 (42:15):
Yeah, is that the top of the advice pyramid?
But they're floating aroundchatting to people.
Maybe they'll chat to numberthree, four, five.
I'll send it to you after thisIt'll blow your mind, you
probably get it.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
I'm very interested in what you're saying, but then
you'd also on the other side ofthe coin say, well, they're just
stupid, aren't they?

Speaker 1 (42:32):
Are they stupid, or they just don't know how?

Speaker 2 (42:34):
Fuck, how hard is it, dude?

Speaker 1 (42:37):
Mate, it's fucking hard.
I'm telling you, look at thefuture of AI.
It's right, who's going to getthe best results out of AI?
Whoever can put the bestprompts in gets the best answers
.
And then whoever can leveragethe best out of AI and, with
those answers, who can takemassive action.
That's how you're going to winthe next phase of business.
No one knows how to ask theright questions.
No one knows the answers theyneed.

(42:58):
You can't get the right answersunless you've got the best
questions.
No one actually knows whatquestions to ask, how to ask for
help.
That's why I sit on amastermind and everyone's there
going.
I know I need this information,I need to be able to ask this
question, but they sit there insilence and then they move on,
like the the story with therusty nail.
Yeah, that's life.
So like.
If we can teach people to askbetter questions, have the

(43:20):
confidence to do it, we've gotthe answers.
It's our job to be able to givethem the answers back, sure?

Speaker 2 (43:24):
and you know, one of the things I love about what you
guys are doing is you'reactually creating a community of
people who want to backthemselves.
You know, instead of slippinginto the old-fashioned, you know
, go and get a job at Hayes andwear a black suit, you know, and

(43:46):
carry a black compendium andwalk up and down Queen Street,
and you know there's so muchmore interesting ways to look at
this industry Exactly.
Yeah, I mean, look at me.

Speaker 3 (44:00):
okay, I'm a hobo right, you're too hard on
yourself, mate.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
Yeah, come on mate.
Come to the XR Movement Clubevery Friday.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
We'll turn it around, but you know people want to do
work with people that they knowand trust, right and anyway.
So we can talk around andaround this, but I think you're
right and, by the way, I'm notsaying if 47 people reach out to
me after this podcast and askme for a job, I can hire you all

(44:32):
.
But you know, it amazes me, in16 years, not one single person
like the last time I was on yourpodcast I probably got, I would
say, upwards of 40 to 50connection requests LinkedIn

(44:54):
connection requests fromrecruiters which I accepted
Awesome and then nothinghappened.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
They didn't know how.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
Really love what you had to say on the podcast.
You know, can I buy you a cupof coffee?
I'd love to pick your brainNothing.
I mean nothing.
You know, can I buy you a cupof coffee?
I'd love to pick your brainNothing.

Speaker 3 (45:20):
Not, I mean nothing.
Yeah, I mean, I hear whatDeclan says around how do you
educate them to ask betterquestions?
And I hear what you say.
I mean it's pretty basic stuff.
So where's the middle groundbetween educating them to ask
better questions and reach out?
Maybe it's not an asking betterquestions thing, maybe it's an
effort thing.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
Well, where it's at for me is through, because, of
course, we're all limited intime, right?
Okay is, how do I educate oneto many?
Well, I write a book, I run apodcast series, I run lunch and

(46:01):
learn events, and so hopefullythat encourages people to come
in and become part of thecommunity and learn through
being part of the community andlearn through, you know, being
part of the community.
But at the end of the day, youknow they've got to take the

(46:22):
step.
It's not up to me to drag theperson you know to me, right?
It's up to me to drag theemployer to me, right?
I've got 30,000 LinkedInconnections, or roughly I have
about 29,000, so I keep havingto cull in order to add new ones

(46:45):
.
Now, I didn't just click myfingers and have 30,000 LinkedIn
connections, of which 9,000 areC-suite executives in Brisbane.
I sat down there on the weekend, you know, often for an hour or

(47:06):
two hours or, as I like toprefer to say, for one or two
stubbies, and I sent connectionrequests.
Okay, I have people in my teamwho have been in my team for
five years and have 3,000connections and they go.

(47:27):
Richard, how do you knoweverybody around town?
Because I reach out and say doyou want a meeting?
Right?
I launched that book at theBrisbane Club and I had probably
close to 100 people show up, ofwhich close to 80 or 90 of
those were CEOs and owners ofbusinesses and a member of my

(47:52):
team who I love and I'm pleasedI'm not being in any way
disparaging.
She goes Richard, all thesepeople showed up like I can't
believe that they all showed upfor your book launch.
Why do they all show up?
I went and I said because I wentand met with them in person,
because she sits at home, youknow, on Teams, and thinks I can

(48:16):
form a relationship on Teams.
You can't form a teamrelationship, right, you have to
.
Our business is aboutrelationship and I might not
agree with everything that yousay and vice versa, but if we
meet and we share and, as aresult, we build trust, you

(48:42):
can't help but be successful.
Exactly, and one of the bestthings about recruitment, which
I say a lot, is that I'm 57.
I've been in recruitment for 20years.
So the guys I knew when I was37 were the sales manager.
Now, at 57, they're the C-suiteexecutive.

(49:03):
If I stay in recruitment foranother 15, 20 years, which I
hope to.
They'll be the chairman of theboard.
So as long as I don'tunder-promise sorry,
over-promise and under-deliveras long as I maintain those
relationships, then, as theircareer escalates and they love

(49:26):
me and they want to use me, Ican only be more successful.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
The compounding affects the business Right, and
yet how many?

Speaker 2 (49:34):
recruiters won't even return a phone call I get.
My most recent one was thedeputy chair of an ASX top 10
company and he rang me up and hesaid you know what, richard,
when I was the CEO of an ASX top10 company, I could not stop

(49:58):
recruiters from bashing down mydoor.
They wanted my work Korn Ferry,russell Reynolds, spencer
Stewart, egon Zender, blah, blah, blah.
They were bashing down my door.
We want your work.
Now that I'm looking for a job,nobody will even return my
email.
I mean, as a recruiter, that isthe most stupid thing, isn't it

(50:24):
?

Speaker 1 (50:25):
yeah, but I don't think many directors are
teaching teaching this stuff.
Mate like this is like top onepercent information no, is it
really?

Speaker 2 (50:31):
it is made.

Speaker 1 (50:32):
otherwise, like I know it, information, is it
really?
It is mate.
Otherwise, like I know, itsounds really silly.
It sounds really simple butlike no one's teaching, no CEO
or recruitment agency manager.
Why do you think we have 76% ofthe industry as a three-person
business or less?
I think like 64% are one-personbusinesses, because no one
actually knows how to get out ofit.

Speaker 2 (50:51):
All right.
Well, I'll tell you what.
We'll have an offlineconversation.
Why don't we build a podcastseries where we actually teach
recruiters?
This is how to set up a clientmeeting.
This is how to build arelationship.
This is how to take a brief.

(51:12):
This is how, to you know, builda relationship.
This is how to take a brief.
This is how to deliver a shortlist, because I don't know that
there's a resource like thatavailable.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
There is.
It's just top secret for XRPartners only Matt Cossons.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
Right If only 1% of recruiters know that they should
return people's phone calls.
God help our industry.
Or?

Speaker 1 (51:37):
praise the people that have worked it out, because
they're going to be wildlysuccessful.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
Sure, but it's the other 599 people who are walking
around town who are giving us ashit reputation.

Speaker 1 (51:52):
And that's why there'll be a huge, huge divide
in months and years to come.
It'll be undeniable.
We'll see, because I think acareer like it'll only like.
There's big companies that areoffshoring their recruiters.
They're moving things to Indiajust to keep account managers
here in front of clients andthen delivery teams offshore to
cut back on costs because theycan't retain junior staff.
But even that's dumb, exactlyso.

(52:14):
That's why I'm so passionateabout the future of recruitment,
because the skill sets thatwe've learned are going to
transcend this entire industry.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
It's like one.
I get asked regularly.
So, richard, I know that when Iwrite a CV, it gets passed
through AI looking for keywordsas to whether I should be
interviewed.
I go every applicant for everyjob in my business.
Their CV is read by a humanbeing Because somebody might be

(52:47):
awesome, but they're absolutelyterrible at writing a CV.
But they're absolutely terribleat writing a CV.
So why would you miss out on anexcellent applicant because
you're trusting AI to read acrap CV written by a fantastic
candidate?
It's dumb, and yet that'swhat's happening.

Speaker 1 (53:10):
What do you reckon all the consequences of the
recruitment industry will be ifwe don't make these changes and
help everyone level up together?
Do you reckon there'll be adivide on my angle?
Or do you reckon yeah?
What are your thoughts?
What do you reckon theconsequences would be?
Well, I think there's For theones that don't work this stuff
out.
Well, they'll just leave,they'll just fizzle out.

Speaker 2 (53:33):
As they always have.
You know they'll come, they'llhave a look, they'll leave.
You know I don't really respect, from a recruitment methodology
point of view, a lot of the bigglobal players pick a name any
name Hayes but I do respect thefact that they're a very

(53:54):
successful business.
They make a lot of money.
They've been around for a longtime.
They obviously know whatthey're doing.
It's just that how they chooseto do it is not how I choose to
do it.
So you know there's many waysto skin a cat.

(54:15):
I also believe one of the trueblessings that I had, even
though it ended very poorly, wasI was mentored by Bruce Davison
for five years.
He's a beast, I hear At thetime.
Time it's been, you know, um 17years since I worked there, but

(54:37):
, um, what an amazing boss andtaught me so much.
So, um, if you are an aspiringrecruiter and you truly are
committed to being the best thatyou can possibly be, find

(54:58):
somebody excellent and latchonto them like a sucker fish on
a shark, and that's how youlearn.
That's how I learn, you know,and I'm sure, with all the value
adds that you offer to thepeople who are part of your
community, you know that's howthey learn too.

Speaker 1 (55:20):
What could we do together?
Maybe there's something like Iknow you mentioned the podcast
series Maybe we could do anevent or something to bring the
best of the best together andhelp Because you want everyone
to do well and help because youwant everyone to do well.
Like, I don't think anyoneactually.
Yeah, they might have limitingbeliefs which cause them to
think short-sighted and makedecisions which affect people in
a negative way, but I don'tthink anyone actually wants

(55:42):
people to fail or do bad.

Speaker 2 (55:45):
Well, there's a couple of people we spoke about
before the podcast.

Speaker 1 (55:48):
Yeah, I'm going to cast that as limiting beliefs.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
But you know, the reality is oh look, I'd love to
you know, and I mean youmentioned Greg Savage right Now.
Greg Savage has been around fora long time and you know he
lives off his reputation and awell-deserved reputation.

(56:14):
But you know, the world's movedon and I think there are people
who are doing some things alittle more innovatively and I'd
like to hope Arate Executive isone of those.
But there are people who get toa point and they want to give
back to industry.
And certainly, you know, thegreat thing is in my space there

(56:42):
are five top global searchbrands.
They're called the Shrek brandsSpencer Street, hydric
Struggles, russell Reynolds,eagle Incender, korn Ferry.
I never compete against them,ever.
Because they charge 40%, youknow, and they recruit the CEO
of Rio Tinto, right?
And I'm humble enough to knownobody is ever going to ask

(57:08):
Richard Triggs to recruit theCEO of Rio Tinto, right?
But that's okay, I'm cool, youknow, I make enough money, and
so on.
My biggest competitor isinternal recruitment.
I never compete against, youknow.
You'd go, oh, you must competeagainst Robert Walters or

(57:30):
Davidsons or you know whoever.
All the time, never, never.
I compete against internalrecruitment.
And what happened was whenLinkedIn Recruiter License came
out, recruiters were like ohboo-hoo, you know, linkedin
recruiters ruined our industry.

(57:50):
And I went.
I don't know if I told you thisstory previously, but there was
an RCSA conference on HamiltonIsland and LinkedIn recruiter
had just come out and I wasreally good friends with the
people running LinkedIn becauseI thought LinkedIn was an
awesome tool and I'd evenwritten my book Uncover the
Hidden Job Market and I'd evenwritten my book Uncover the

(58:10):
Hidden Job Market and a lot ofthat is about how to use
LinkedIn to find a job.
And I was literally sitting atthe dinner table and owners of
recruitment companies werecoming up and virtually spitting
in the face of the people fromLinkedIn.
Do you know?

Speaker 1 (58:30):
Ed Glover.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
Ed Glover yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
Does that ring a bell ?

Speaker 2 (58:33):
No.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
So he was head of he's with the team now at X
Recruiter and he's had anawesome career.
But he was a head of sales atLinkedIn, right, and so his job
was to open the big market andgo and sell LinkedIn to end user
customers.
Right, and he goes.
We thought it was going to belike shooting fish in a barrel,
and do you know what he said?
Most customers said back likewho are we going to be held?

(58:56):
Who are we holding accountableif we don't fill the role?
I can't hold linkedinaccountable, but I can hold a
recruiter accountable as to whythe job's not done yeah, it's
interesting and that's what hesaid was the biggest objection
that they had to overcome.
because, yeah, he thought it wasgoing to be easy like
recruitment's's over LinkedInrecruiters.
Here I'll teach all the CEOshow to use it and all their
hiring teams and then that's theend of recruitment.

(59:16):
And they said, mate,respectfully, like it sounds
good, but like the opportunitycost of me sitting here using
another software and training myteam on another software.
I'm better off just getting arecruiter that knows the market,
knows the fields and says do itfor me.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
Okay, and so if you want to dive down into that a
little bit, right?
So internal recruiter getsgiven a LinkedIn recruiter
licence.
Oh, Sally's got an internalrecruiter licence, a LinkedIn
recruiter licence.
Now, Instead of paying $500,000a year in recruitment fees,

(59:50):
we'll just pay her $100,000 plusLinkedIn recruiter $20,000 or
whatever, and oh, we're going tosave so much money, right?
Number one Sally's got 40 jobson.
She doesn't have any time toheadhunt.
Number two she's never beentrained how to headhunt and
because she's never been trainedhow to do it, she doesn't want
to do it because it's scary.
Now, the reality is,headhunting is fun.

(01:00:13):
Headhunting is probably thefunnest part of our job, because
who doesn't want to get a phonecall and be told hey, we think
you're awesome, We've got thisamazing job, Would you be
interested in thinking about it?
But the internal recruiterexcuse me, because they've not
been trained, they're scared.

(01:00:35):
But the most important thing is,an internal recruiter cannot
headhunt because they have todisclose who they work for.
So hi, I'm Sally, I work forRio Tinto.
I'm contacting you, build blogsfrom BHB, Do you want to come
and work for Rio Tinto?
Whereas a third-party executivesearch professional can

(01:00:58):
maintain confidentiality so wecan ring up and we can say we're
working for one of the topmining companies in the world.
You've been identified assomebody that they would be
interested in talking to.
If I could demonstrate that thisrole is better than your
current one, would you beinterested in having a

(01:01:19):
conversation about it?
And what do they say?
Of course, they never say no.
They never say no because whynot?
You know what's it going tocost me Ten-minute phone
conversation.
I might end up getting $100,000pay rise or whatever right
Internal recruitment again, noslight to them.

(01:01:40):
But LinkedIn recruiter.
If you think sending in mailson LinkedIn recruiter is going
to get you quality candidates,you're an idiot, because it's no
different to putting an ad onSeek right.
If I'm really, really busy andI'm in my job and I like it and
I like my boss and I'mrelatively well-paid and I'm

(01:02:03):
getting 80 in-mails a day andI'm up to my neck in crocodiles
and I get this in-mail from youknow, an internal recruiter, I
just delete it.

Speaker 3 (01:02:21):
I think, probably to add to that as well, when people
are looking for a role, there'smuch more credibility and
authority going to a trustedadvisor.
As a recruiter being yourprofession, you can really
position yourself as a trustedadvisor and get a lot more depth
and interest out of thecandidate to then be able to
advise them on the directionthat they need to go, even
though you've got a financialinterest in doing so.

(01:02:42):
But if a HR manager at RioTinto is reaching out to Billy
Bob at BHP, she's never going tobe seen as the trusted advisor
because there's a directinterest in what she's doing
Well that's true.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
And the other thing is, how does to use your name,
billy Bob?
How does Billy Bob trust theconfidentiality of his
application?
Because he doesn't want youknow, his boss to find out.
He's talking to Rio Tinto ifit's a job that he's not even

(01:03:18):
interested in.
So he wants to talk to arecruiter who can, you know,
essentially, guide and advisehim is this actually a job that
you want to apply for?
And he might go actually likeno, and in that instance, rio

(01:03:39):
Tinto never even knew that hewas an applicant.

Speaker 3 (01:03:43):
I'm just thinking out loud here.
So this might be true forpeople not actively looking.
Yeah, so this might be true forpeople not actively looking,
but I sense there's probably ahigher amount or ratio of people
that wouldn't use a recruiterif they're actively looking
because there's this perceptionthat the recruiter's going to

(01:04:05):
just use me as a filler.
They're going to try and figureout who's got the best fee,
that my salary will come downbecause they're paying the
recruiter.
You know all of thesemisconceptions of a candidate
might have if they haven't usedor understand how recruitment
works.
So in one reality, when they'renot actively looking, it's in
their best interest and theylike using a recruiter, but when

(01:04:27):
they are looking, it's almostlike Well you definitely are
seeing that in recruitmentindustry or specialisation.

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
It's like, for example, legal Okay, so there
used to be legal recruiters andthe lawyer property lawyer,
five-year property lawyer wouldwalk in to the legal recruiter
and go, oh, my boss is adickhead, or I want a new job.
And the legal recruiter will go, oh, my boss is a dickhead, or
I want a new job.
And the legal recruiter will gowell, I can represent you to
Gaydon's and I can represent youto Clayton Ute's and I can

(01:04:59):
represent you to da-da-da-da-da.
And, of course, on the basisthat it's contingent recruitment
and if they make thatrepresentation and Gatins choose
to hire that lawyer, then theyget paid their 20% or whatever
they get paid right Now.

(01:05:20):
The active job seeker will gowho are the law firms that I
would like to work for?
And they will go direct.
And that is hurting the legalrecruitment industry a lot and I
would presume that would bevery similar for lawyers,

(01:05:41):
accountants, engineers you know,architects, professional
services type people.

Speaker 1 (01:05:49):
What about recruiters ?
What do you think about?
Like the same situation in recto rec?
Like if you're a gun recruiter?
Like, do rec to recs place thetop 1% of recruiters?
Do they mainly focus on juniorlevel staff?
Do they have?
Like, like if you're a rec torec?
Because the only reason I ask?
Because when I'm doing BD forex-recruiter right and I'm
calling recruiters and having arec to rec, because the only

(01:06:10):
reason I ask, because when I'mdoing BD for X Recruiter right
and I'm calling recruiters andhaving a chat to them, building
pipeline for the future,understanding where they're at,
what they want to do, what theywant to change, and they're
shocked that I call them.
They're like, you're calling me, mate, I'm in the office.
Whoa, what's going on?
Like, mate, I'm in the office,it's gonna have to be a
conversation after.
And I'm like, why are you soshocked by this?
Like you you get, you callpeople every day, but now you're

(01:06:32):
on the receiving end of theline.
You're freaking out becausedeclan from x recruiters called
you.
So like is, and I can onlythink that they're not actually
getting smashed with calls fromrectorex, they're just getting
linked in dms okay.

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):
So I love talking about rectorex.
Um, when I joined therecruitment industry, I had a
meeting at Hudson or TMPWorldwide and I was offered a
job and I accepted the job andafter I'd been there for a while
, I came to a realization Ireally enjoy recruitment, but I

(01:07:08):
really don't like working forT&P Worldwide.
I'd rather work for a smallerboutique firm.
Again, nothing about them somuch, just my personality style.
So I thought the mistake that Imade is I only saw one
recruitment company.
What I really need to do is Ineed to go and see six or seven

(01:07:34):
recruitment companies and thenmake an informed decision about
which culture or remunerationstructure or whatever I
preferred.
And I had this thing in my mindif you're a rec to rec and so
you're a recruiter who recruitsrecruiters for recruitment

(01:07:55):
companies, you've got to be thebest of the best.
You've got to be the bestbecause everybody would be
judging you.
They are the worst fuckingrecruiters in the world.
I think rec to recs areabsolutely and utterly appalling
and I have often thought andthis could be something that you

(01:08:19):
and I could do I could start arec-to-rec business and within
12 months it would be the bestrec-to-rec business in Australia
, because I know exactly how todo it.
Yeah, and you are spot on.
You need to build community.
What do recruiters love to do?

(01:08:42):
Get on the piss.
So you go, okay, every secondFriday of the month we're going
to go to the Elephant andWheelbarrow, or whatever it's
called nowadays, and come alongand have a free drink and it's
open for all recruiters, and youjust need to get to know them.
Yeah, and you just stay intouch with them and you just

(01:09:05):
watch what they're doing.
And how do you find yourcandidates?
Well, you just look at who'sadvertising on Seek, Like it's
the easiest job in the world.

Speaker 1 (01:09:15):
I think me and Blake have placed more people at our
partners' agencies than probablyquite a few Rector Racks have
placed in the last year.

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
I would never spend one cent on a Rector Rack.
I've spent 20 grand on a.

Speaker 3 (01:09:27):
Rector Rack as a retainer, never placed, the role
moved on.
Let me tell you my favouriteRectorac.
I've spent $20,000 on aRectorac as a retainer, never
placed, the role moved on.

Speaker 2 (01:09:34):
Let me tell you my favourite Rectorac story.
How are we going for time?
By the way, I think we're up tothree hours.

Speaker 3 (01:09:39):
Yeah, yeah, we're actually a little bit over, so
this will be a good segue toOkay.

Speaker 1 (01:09:43):
I'll tell you my favourite, at least we know who
you're not going to have at yourChristmas dinner this year it's
the Rector X and.

Speaker 2 (01:09:48):
Intel T8.
Do you guys have time?
I spoke to the guy.
No, Okay, Favorite Rector Xstory.
So I used to have a businesspartner in my business and
anyway, I used to be in businesswith my wife, Fiona Cochran,
who left, became the marketingmanager or client services

(01:10:10):
manager for Untalent and hascome back to work for me.
I think maybe I mentioned thatat the beginning, right, but
anyway, this is back in theolden days when we were married
and we went on a Christmasholiday and my business partner
who shall not be named we neededto recruit an operations

(01:10:30):
manager.
So he recruited this operationsmanager through this woman,
this rect-rec, who's no longerin the industry, and she places
this guy in our business.
And not long after that, theguy my business partner left, so
this person was meant to bemanaged by my business partner

(01:10:51):
left.
So this person was meant to bemanaged by my business partner.
My business partner left, sothis guy is now being managed by
me.
And I said to him look, thereality is, as an operations
manager, I don't think it'sreally working out, but I think
you're a very good recruiter andif you want to stay in as a
senior partner, I'd love to haveyou stay in as a senior partner

(01:11:11):
.
And if you want to stay in as asenior partner, you know I'd
love to have you stay in as asenior partner.
Oh, I'd love to stay in as asenior partner.
So, but he's never in theoffice, ever, Always out, never
there, always dashing outtalking on the phone.
So I ring the rec-to-rec thatplaced him.
So I ring the rec to rec thatplaced him.

(01:11:31):
He was still in probation and Isaid to her listen, if this guy
doesn't want to work hereanymore, that's cool, but he's
just never here, he's neverengaged.
Can you ring him up or talk tohim and just find out what's
going on, because I need to knowwhat's going on.
Yeah, Richard, yeah, I'lldefinitely do that.

(01:11:53):
Never heard from her again.
So this guy after two weeks Iwent through his diary and he
must have had in that time 20client meetings.
So 19 of those people didn'tactually exist and the one
person that did exist, he hadn'teven met with them.

(01:12:16):
Because I'd know, because Irang them up, and so I call him
in and I go dude, I don't knowwhat's going on, but obviously
you know you're taking the pissand so see you later.
And I ring the rec toc and Isay I've just terminated this
guy and this is the reason why.
And blah, blah, blah.

(01:12:36):
Well, a month later he shows upas the general manager of a
national recruitment companyGeneral Manager, Queensland of a
national recruitment company,and I knew his boss.
So I rang his boss and I saidout of interest, you know, when

(01:12:58):
you employed this person, whydid they say that they left
Arate?
Well, the Rector told us thatyou were facing financial
difficulties so you needed tomake him redundant.
Wow, Same rec to rec.
That's really poor.
The same rec to rec placed aguy that I terminated in another

(01:13:24):
company and took another fee bymaking up a lie about my
business, and I just went, I'mdone.
And took another fee by makingup a lie about my business, and
I just went, I'm done, that'sfair enough.

Speaker 3 (01:13:38):
Well, we've ended on a really positive note here.

Speaker 2 (01:13:40):
Yeah, I think.
Coming back to what you weresaying, if there's anything that
I can do to help to lift theprofile of the industry and to
help to educate and supportpeople, I'd love to do it.
Thank you, triggy, as long asit's not, you know, really
onerous.

Speaker 1 (01:13:59):
As long as it'll be sent out to the masses.
But I think the way they can dothat is just buy your books,
listen to your podcast andinvite you for a coffee.
Yeah, we'll even put a scriptin on what you can automatically
send to Triggs.

Speaker 3 (01:14:10):
We'll give them the intro script and they just have
to copy and paste.

Speaker 2 (01:14:14):
All right.
So if you want a copy ofUncover the Hidden Job Market,
my first book, you can just goto the Arato website and you can
download that for free.
I'm not yet giving away the newbook for free, because I want
to at least try and cover thecost of publication winning the
War for Talent and, to be frank,I don't do coffees because I

(01:14:40):
just don't have time.
But if somebody contacts me andsays hey, richard, can I have 15
minutes of your time to have aTeams conversation or whatever?
Love to?
More than happy to do that.
Again, not 400 a week.
But yeah, look, you knowthere's a lot of things that I
do which are completely stupid,right, and I always say to

(01:15:03):
people you know it's not likeI'm amazing.
You know I'm 30 kilosoverweight.
I know exactly what I need todo to lose weight eat less and
exercise more but I don't do itright.
So there's just shit thatpeople want to do and they don't
want to do and I get it.

(01:15:25):
So you know, there's thingsthat I love doing and there's
other things, like you know,eating salads, eating less and
exercising that you don't likedoing.
I'd much rather go to theBrisbane Club and, you know, eat
a yummy meal and drinkdelicious wine.

Speaker 1 (01:15:41):
Well, Trigsy, hopefully we can do that with
you next time, mate.

Speaker 2 (01:15:43):
Well, I'd love to, and I really appreciate the
opportunity to come back.
I like the new digs.
Your support crew here, sergeand Ryan, are the best.
Make you look like superstars.
Awesome, which is you know.
You're very lucky to have themand I look forward to seeing you
again soon.
Awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:16:03):
Thanks, gigi.
Well done, brother.
See you, mate.
Thanks for tuning in to anotherConfessions of a recruiter
podcast with blake and declan.
We hope you enjoyed and got alot of value and insights out of
this episode.
If you do have any questions oryou would like to recommend
someone to come on theconfessions podcast, we would
love any introductions andremember the rule of the podcast

(01:16:26):
like share and recommend it toa friend until next time.
Like share and recommend it toa friend till next time.