February 9, 2025 • 46 mins
Uncover the secrets of the recruitment world with our guest, Tom Hunter from Edward Mann, as he shares his transformative journey from country Victoria to becoming an influential figure in the accounting and finance recruitment sector. Discover how listening to recruitment podcasts and leveraging LinkedIn strategies, bolstered by insights from Sean Anderson and Inika McMahon, propelled Tom's career to new heights. Tom's story is a testament to the power of discipline and creative content in overcoming the challenges of the recruitment industry.
Join us as we delve into Tom's transition from a background in psychology and teaching to the fast-paced London recruitment scene, where he mastered the art of niche specialization in accounting and finance. Tom reveals the benefits of focusing on specific sectors like manufacturing and distribution, which not only boosts client engagement but also enhances credibility. The evolving dynamics with Edward Mann's London head office highlight a journey from guidance to a strong, independent partnership, celebrating mutual growth and shared expertise between international teams.
Finally, explore the ambitious growth plans at Edward Mann, including strategic hiring and training initiatives aimed at tackling the global market's complexities. From streamlining visa processes to targeting key geographical regions, the conversation uncovers the firm's drive to strengthen its presence in the UK's East Coast and Australia's financial hubs. In this episode, we also spotlight the importance of effective onboarding and warming up professional connections via LinkedIn, all to ensure a seamless recruitment process and reduce turnover rates. Don't miss Tom's expert insights into refining recruitment strategies and optimizing team performance.
· Our Website is: xrecruiter.io
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, Tom from Edward Mann, we're accounting
and finance recruitment acrossAustralia.
Today on the podcast, we'll becovering my personal journey
with recruitment across Londonand then here to Australia and
then next steps and what we'redoing for 2025.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome back to another episode of Confessions
of a Recruiter.
Today we're with Tom Hunterfrom Edward Mann Mate.
It's been an incredible storyEight years now in the industry,
coming from country Victoria,going overseas becoming a
teacher, finding thatrecruitment's one of the best
paid gigs you can find without adegree, and now being equity
owner of Edward Mann Mate.
What a journey.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Thanks for coming on.
Yeah, absolutely, I'm a big fanof the show, so I'm pumped as
to be here Looking forward to it.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Awesome mate, appreciate it.
How many episodes have youlistened to?
All of them, all of them.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
All of them Apart from those.
There's a couple more recently.
So the early days was likeprime time, so you know the
Simpsons, like that was the peakperiod for confession.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Was it?
Yeah, okay, what's yourfavorite app?
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Oh, there's a few, so the one that I really liked is
the one with Inika McMahon.
Yeah, yeah yeah, Like that storywhere she was saying about how
she called the guy every weekfor a year or something and then
she said I'm going to keepcalling for a year until you
pick it up, until you answer thephone, and then on the 52nd or
whatever, the guy answered andsaid all right, I'll use you.
(01:30):
So that was awesome, but Iguess the ones that I've got the
most out of it was probablySean Sean Anderson, Philip Mpoxo
and then the stuff that MattyCossons does is just awesome.
He's a weapon, isn't he?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, awesome he's a weapon, isn't he?
Yeah, yeah, what do you mainlylisten to it for, like?
Is it education?
How to you know, find out thenext thing you don't know, or is
it?
Speaker 1 (01:49):
yeah, so I, um, I listen to a lot of recruitment
pods.
Um, I don't know what triggeredit at first.
I think it might have just beenyou guys on linkedin just
seeing it heave.
So I should listen to itdefinitely should and then heard
a few like this is awesome.
So mostly educational.
Yeah, just taking littletidbits from it, stuff that I
can action and use.
(02:11):
And then it just got into a bitof a habit and then, before you
know it, I was just listeningto it almost every day and I
listen to it when I'm at the gymor if I'm cooking or anything
that I'm just already doingsomething that's playing in the
background Nice, and then I'll.
There's something quite good,I'll.
So I use OneNote quite a lot onmy phone or the computer.
I'm just right now episode X atso-and-so time, just so I can
(02:32):
come back to it and write itdown or whatever, and what's
probably been the most impactfulthing that you've implemented
since listening to.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
you know all the guests that were that on
LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
definitely Content on LinkedIn by far.
So I don't know when you hadhim on the show, but I would
have listened to the pod withSean, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Sean, he had it on early, like in 2023.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah, okay, cool, so I would have listened to it.
I was on a train out toCampbelltown, just for context
Would have been December 2023, Ireckon, and I was just
listening to it.
Holy shit, I'm leaving money onthe table.
I need to get involved.
So good, fomo got me for sure.
(03:12):
And then, just since Januarystart of January last year
posting three times a week forabout six, seven-ish months, and
I was getting a fair bit ofengagement and getting a fair
bit of candidate stuff back, alittle bit of client stuff, but
not a huge amount.
So they do a bit of free contenton their website, so the
20-10-5 method.
(03:33):
And then I was getting a littlebit going on that from there,
but it was probably morecandidate-focused than client
stuff.
And then I just ended uppulling the trigger and doing
the actual paid.
And then it's been awesomesince and doing the actual paid,
and then it's been awesomesince it's just a lot more focus
, there's a lot more strategyabout how to go about it and
what to do and just liketemplate stuff, and that's been
really actionable.
And so, yeah, since it's beenawesome getting pretty
(03:55):
consistent engagement, havingpeople speak to me about seeing
content when I've never spokento them before.
Having clients reach out to methat I've never spoken before.
Hey, I'm recruiting for thisjob, can you help?
And then that turns intoexclusive work and just yeah,
it's been awesome.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
So the paid, fascinating the paid content
course that you did through Hoxo.
I've heard good things about it.
Yep, what actually is it?
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, so it's a I think it's an eight-week course
and then you're part of theircommunity forever, indefinitely
or whatever.
So there's an online communityI think the app's called Circle
or something.
So everyone that's ever donethe program is in that community
and are asking questions andwhatever.
And then each week for thefirst eight weeks you'll have a
(04:43):
session on, say, the Tuesday,with Sean and that's a group one
, and then they normally do two,depending on time zones, in the
one day.
So one will be like Australia4pm and the other one will be UK
4pm.
And then on the Thursday you'llhave a smaller group session
with one of their support.
What do you learn?
What are they telling you?
So, setting up your profile, tobe a bit of a funnel, and
(05:07):
setting it up so that as soon assomeone goes on to your profile
, they see what you do, servicesyou provide, how to go about it
and just approaching you as theperson to go to Yep.
And then there's week by week.
One is content, valuable, so avaluable piece of content,
credible content, so what youpiece of content, credible
content, so what you can do.
(05:27):
And then personal.
And then there's a couple ofother points in between.
I can't remember exactly whatthe other weeks were, but
they're the four main weeks andat the start is the 20-10-5
method, so connecting with 20,commenting and liking, so
engagement 10, and then fivevoice notes or messages reach
out.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
So what has more impact doing 2010 five or doing
the actual posting?
Speaker 1 (05:50):
I think you got to do both so funnily enough so for
the first.
So I did Sean's free thing onhis website at the start of the
year and for whatever reason, Ididn't listen to it all the way
through.
I was like, oh yeah, this lookssick, I'm just going to jump
into it.
And for whatever reason, Iassumed that 20 was connections,
10 was likes and 5 was comments, and so I wasn't doing the
(06:13):
reach outs.
I obviously didn't get as muchcoming back as a result of that,
but because it's kind of linkedto the content.
So the people that you're goingto be reaching out to is the
people that are engaging withyour content, because they're
the most warm.
And then it might be peoplethat have viewed your profile
and then people that have justconnected with you.
But you're going to get waymore interaction and they're
(06:36):
more likely to book in a meetingwith you or at least have a
phone call if they've seen yourcontent.
So if your content is goodenough and it's consistent
enough and they've seen it, thenthey're way more likely to
accept that call.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
So what are you saying?
I find this really interestingbecause you know I think me and
Declan have a more than averageprofile on LinkedIn.
You know we post quite a lot.
I probably dropped the ballwith engaging a little bit, if I
must say so myself.
So what are you saying in thesevoice notes?
(07:09):
Are you just like someone likesa post and you go?
Oh hey, declan, thanks forliking my posts, appreciate you.
If you ever want to look for anew job, let me know what do you
say?
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
So I guess there's two ways you want to go about it
, whether it's a candidate reachout or a client reach out, and
it really depends on your market.
So for most markets it's goingto be client-led.
Unless you're recruiting foraccounting practices because
they're crazy candidate short,then you're probably going to be
more that focus.
So you're introducing yourself,because on the voice notes you
can only do for about a minuteis the max, yeah.
(07:44):
So you kind of need to keep itrelatively short and sharp, and
so it might be introducingyourself, saying something about
why you're reaching out, andyou kind of want to do it with a
little bit of a pump up atfirst because you're saying
about them being I've noticedyour profile, I've noticed the
business.
If you've got something that youcan introduce, them being great
(08:06):
or whatever.
And then you might recognize atthe start thanks for engaging
or thanks for connecting with me, thanks for viewing my profile,
and you might.
There's a few different ways togo about it.
You can talk about marketinsights you're seeing, talking
about salaries, talking aboutany changes that are coming up.
You could do a little bit ofFOMO.
So if this is coming up, youneed to get ahead of it or this
needs to happen.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
And then just trying to book in a meeting or trying
to book in a call, okay, okay,interesting.
So I'm just trying to see how Ican relate that to Venditto, my
recruitment agency.
So someone likes a post of mine, whatever it's.
You know, average salary insales is 75,000.
Someone likes it.
I go to Billy Bob.
Hey, billy Bob, I appreciateyou liking the posts.
Saw your background.
You've got some greatexperience at Coca-Cola and
McDonald's.
Look, we recruit quite heavilyin those industries.
(08:52):
So maybe, if it's worth jumpingon a call, we'd love to have a
chat to you about furtherinformation that I can give,
over and above the salaryinsights.
Cheers.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yeah, something like that would work pretty well.
I'd probably put before there alittle bit of intrigue.
So I've noticed this in themarket, I'm seeing this
happening or something that'shappening in your space, and
then there's a reason for themto need to call you back because
you're giving them some value,because, at the end of the day,
you want to get them on thephone to you, but you need to
give them something first andforemost.
Yeah, okay, people are muchkeener to give you something if
(09:22):
they've received something first.
Yeah, the reciprocal stuffright.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
So what has that done ?
What are the outcomes of youimplementing this LinkedIn
strategy?
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, so from a billing perspective definitely
increased and the acceptance ofmeetings and just the
familiarity and credibility thatjust comes so quickly.
I don't think I've made alegitimate cold call where no
one.
Oh, I'm going to reach out tothem and they're already engaged
(09:52):
with me, first and foremost.
So it's not saying thateveryone knows me.
But I wouldn't have made a coldcold call for months because I
would have engaged with themfirst and then booked in a call
and then chatting with themfirst and getting enough
activity, that going just offthat method.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Was it hard to create the discipline?
Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, yeah.
So really hard at first and thefirst six months you're getting
fuck all engagement and ittakes ages to come through.
There would have been weekswhere you might get one, two
likes and then this is a bitshit, but looking back now, some
of the content was prettyfucking great, yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
So what's the difference when you first
started to now For the contentFor the content way more
structured.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And headlining headlining issuper important, like the hook.
Yeah, the hook.
Yeah, I'm still not great at itand I don't love it, because I
just hate being a bit dailymail-y, and you just got to get
over that.
You just got to create a goodenough hook that people come in,
because newspapers makemillions of dollars for a reason
(10:59):
right, because of the headlines.
Yeah, so you just got to bitethe bullet and do it?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, and does the whole team in Edward man over in
the UK?
Do they all get around Hoxo anddoing it?
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah.
So UK guys did it.
They're getting around it.
I think it is hard to maintainthe consistency of it.
So I would say they probablydon't do it as rigorously and
consistently as myself, becauseyou kind of need to enjoy it a
little bit and kind of need tomake it more of the daily task,
because I do all my content on aSunday because it's just too
(11:32):
busy during the week to do itproperly.
So I'll spend a couple of hourson a Sunday, schedule all five,
and then I don't really have tothink about it during the week
other than a little bit ofengagement.
But not everyone wants tocommit two or three hours on a
Sunday to write content for yourjob.
So it takes a fair bit ofdiscipline to do that.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Awesome and mate.
What's London recruitment like?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Oh, full on, yeah, really full on.
So I think is it like 10,000agencies in Australia?
Yeah, I think there's like45,000 in London.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Just in the city.
Yeah, just in the city.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yeah, just in the city it's wild, so super, super
full on cutthroat as just got tobe really, really urgent.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
You've recruited across multiple countries,
though.
Hey, like some people in the UK, People do.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah, we didn't, but people do.
We did ad hoc roles in for,like European businesses that
were based in London, but Iwouldn't say it was often like
the odd odd one in Luxembourg orGermany or something, but it
was primarily London.
But yeah, it's full on and Idid temp recruitment in London,
so it's even more urgent, right,and you'd have a job call in
(12:35):
and you need to get CVs acrossthat day, otherwise Robert
Half's getting six across andyou're missing out.
And it was good fun, great fun.
And the best learning trainingground you will get is in london
, in either temp recruitment ora high pace recruitment space,
because it's fun.
What?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
was it like going from teaching where it's like so
different to recruit and justexplain how you got the job?
Speaker 1 (13:00):
yeah, so I um, so I went over to London in 2016,.
Yeah, started 2016 and I did.
I was working in a school, andschool teaching in London is
different.
It's so contrasting becauseyou'll have little pockets where
(13:21):
really affluent, and you'llhave really gifted kids coming
into school, and then you'llhave really gifted kids coming
into school and then you'll haveother other areas, also the
same area, where there'sdisadvantaged people, and so
they might be coming in, theymight have had might not have
had breakfast that morning areally big, just all in the same
school, in the same classroom.
Okay, yeah, and so that thatwas tough and so, um, it's just
(13:41):
really, really difficult.
You get to the point where Iwasn't enjoying it.
I'm just yelling atsix-year-olds how long did you
do that?
For Six months, not very long,yeah, not very long at all.
And then I, because my degreewas useless, I basically Googled
how to make money without adegree, and then recruitment
comes up.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
That's such a good story because most recruiters
are probably in that boat whereeither one they are degree
qualified but they don't use thedegree.
Like I know, lawyers,accountants, psychologists, all
of these degree qualifiedprofessionals go.
I don't even want this degree,this is not what I'm interested
(14:23):
in.
And then they get intorecruitment and do really really
well.
What was the degree you had?
Speaker 1 (14:27):
I did a Bachelor of Psychology and then I did a.
Master's of Teaching.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So you Googled how to makemoney without a degree.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yeah, and then recruitment came up and then I
was like, oh okay, well, this isoverwhelming.
So I was like trying tounderstand it.
I went to interviews and Iprobably didn't really know what
was going on at first and howit even worked.
And then I got the jobeventually, after interviewing
for a little bit At Edward Mann,at Edward Mann, yeah, and it
was a steep learning curvebecause I what did?
(14:56):
You recruit Mechanic finance.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Oh, still, yeah, yeah , yeah, so same the whole way
through, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
And so I like to think I'm relatively personable,
but I was not good on the phoneto begin with, like that takes
a while to get used to.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
And I envision, like Wolf of Wall Street, vibes.
A little bit Everyone's insuits, everyone's high pace on
the phone, heaps of phone calls,phones ringing.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah, so I know a lot of the larger firms are like
that.
We were still pretty full on,but nothing compared to what the
stories you hear.
But it's still a little bitlike that.
And so high volume, super highvolume is on the phone and
you've got to rinse it.
So you learn pretty quickly.
And it took me a while to getthe hang of it properly.
And it was maybe two or threemonths in and I'm thinking, oh,
(15:37):
I'm struggling here, I'm notgood at this and it's taking a
little bit of time.
But then all of a sudden itclicks and I hang on taking a
little bit of time, but then allof a sudden it clicks.
Hang on.
I made a placement last week.
I'm working on one now.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I've got this coming up next week, there you go,
happy days.
Awesome.
What's the difference betweenthe UK and Australia?
Is it just more fast-paced, isit?
The billings are better there.
Is it worse there?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
The billings are better here.
Billings are way better herebecause salaries are higher, the
surplus and the volume ofagencies.
That makes it a little bitharder in terms of competition.
But then the urgency of howquickly you've got to move and
the feeling towards recruitersin the UK is not great.
Most companies don't reallylike them.
(16:22):
I don't think lots ofbusinesses love recruiters
anyway, yeah, but the feelingtowards recruiters is much more.
There's a stronger rapport hereand I think there's a greater
value of the work here.
Really, yeah, so I've foundintroducing yourself and
building credibility andbuilding rapport was way easier
here than in London.
But it teaches you just you'vegot to be consistent, you've
(16:44):
just got to make the activityand you've just got to be
resilient because the amount oftimes they just get hung up on
and all that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
They hang up on you.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
I can do yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah true, one of the guys thatI used to work with, on his
very first day I think it mighthave been like the first handful
of calls a client told him thathe was the worst recruiter
she'd ever spoken to.
It was his first day.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
He's like oh yeah, you're probably wrong.
Yeah, you're not wrong.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
So I wasn't there at the time that was before I
started, but that sort of shithappened so what field of temp
was it for accounting andfinance?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Was it like high tier big day rates or was it like
business?
Speaker 1 (17:25):
So my core market was qualified but a year or two
post-qualified.
So funnily enough, my keycandidate pool was Aussies and
Kiwis and it worked out quitewell because it kind of just
perpetuated a little bit becauseI had gone through the same
stuff that they did in terms ofgetting your visa sorted,
getting your NHS stuff sorted.
(17:47):
There's this biometricresidence permit it's like a
little card thing that you'vegot to get and getting all the
nuances of getting set up.
So I was basically justchatting to them about getting
set up because you have a two orthree-year visa over there.
They've just changed the threenow, but it was two back then
and so just helping themnavigate that and then I would
pick up jobs where they wouldwant.
An Aussie or a Kiwi or SouthAfrican is another one that goes
(18:09):
well over there and I justended up setting shortlists of
six people that I know that wereon the visas and that's exactly
what they're looking for.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Happy days.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah, it was great because I made so many mates
just doing that, because you seethem out on the town, because
you're just moving pockets inLondon.
There's so many Aussie pockets.
You'll see them out on a nightout in the town and you bump
into them and try not to connectwith them too much Whatever.
But yeah, it was great becauseyou have the same similarities,
(18:40):
same interests, so you end upjust building really good
connections.
And then, because I was addinga lot of value on top of just
finding them a job, I was ableto chat to them about what
travel might be coming up orwhat to do here or what nuances
might be happening for this andthat, and just perpetuate it
because referrals are coming outof nowhere.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
From a Canada perspective, so how long were
you there for?
And then you decided to comeback to Australia.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
So I was there for two and a half years and so my
visa was expiring and so Ididn't want to leave the company
.
They didn't want to lose me, soI got to set up the Australian
office, which was awesome.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
How was that?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
experience?
Oh, terrifying.
Yeah, so I came back December2019.
So it was what?
Two and a-.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Just before COVID.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Yeah, so we were eight weeks in for COVID so I
came back then.
So two and a half years into myrecruitment career, I kind of
think I know what I'm doing.
But in terms of a businesssense I was so green and then we
made a couple of placements.
In our first month I was like,hey, good to see you, this is
sick, awesome.
And then COVID hits and it'slike fuck, pretty full on.
(19:48):
I lent a lot on the guys in theUK.
So my bosses, the two founders,what did you do?
what did?
Speaker 3 (19:54):
I do so we was it just you at this point?
Speaker 1 (19:57):
nah, so it was me and another guy, james, so he's
still working with us.
So that was good, yeah, and wedidn't know, we were just trying
to figure it out.
So obviously, worked from homefor ages.
We had a contract still I thinkwe I'm trying to remember back
now because it's a while now Ithink we did have a contract
with our office space.
We were in a shared officespace but I think it might have
(20:17):
been like six months at the timeand we're able to be a bit
creative with what that lookedlike and extended and all that
kind of thing.
So we did manage through itbecause costs weren't too high.
It was pretty manageable, butdidn't really know what we were
doing Just trying to figure outand chasing leads and just
chatting to clients and justtalking and just trying to
create some sort of level ofrelationship and rapport,
(20:38):
because no one was reallyrecruiting right.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
And no one knew what they were doing.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
So everyone was figuring it out.
So I wasn't as big of adisadvantage compared to the
other bigger agencies, I suppose, because no one knew what they
were doing.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
So we're just figuring it out Well, I suppose,
because no one knew what theywere doing, so we're just
figuring it out.
Well, I guess the benefit youhad was you were just starting
up, so you didn't actually knowany different from an income
standpoint.
I mean, we share this sometimeson the potty, where I think
March 2020 or April 2020 waslike the first time my business
ever did a $6,000 revenue monthand I had like 11 staff on
(21:10):
salaries, and so when you'veonly brought in 6,000 revenue
for the month and you've got ahundred grand worth of salaries,
it's pretty challenging andscary because you're like I'm
used to this much income NowI've got this much income and my
expenses are here, but for youit seems like it was almost the
perfect time, where at least youwere still getting up and
(21:32):
running anyway.
So you just I don't know if itwas perfect timing.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
It was fine and it worked out, and we're still
standing.
Not every business did and notevery business made it through,
so the fact that we're stillhere is must be doing something
right.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
How did the UK go?
Like what were your businesspartners founders?
What were they saying?
Like what were your businesspartners?
Speaker 1 (21:51):
founders.
What were they saying?
That you were like.
The UK handled it slightlydifferent in terms of like
shutdowns and lockdowns and allthat kind of thing.
So the way the governmentapproached it is a little bit
different because they opened itup a lot earlier and they had
cases that were like crazy perday, whereas ours is slightly
different.
So we were a little bit delayedbehind what their bounce back
(22:12):
was, but it was relativelysimilar.
Companies weren't hiring.
Then they started hiring, butremotely, and then they were
doing this and doing this.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
So incrementally but yeah funny time and do you have
a niche within accounting andfinance or do you recruit any
accounting and finance rolewithin any type of business?
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah so um.
So me personally, I focus moreon the qualified level.
Um, that was more, more in thelast six months I've started
focusing on that.
Prior was a bit more split, sothat's another thing that took
from the pod.
Uh so um.
Mick Donaghy yeah, yeah, sohe's hyper niche, right, and
after listening to that one Iwas like, okay, we need to focus
(22:50):
in, yeah, and so leaned intothat a fair bit.
So one of the guys has quite aninterest in manufacturing and
production and distribution.
So he does accounting andfinance recruitment for those
industries.
So it's quite a niche spot andgetting a lot of buyback from
that because it's from anaccounting perspective.
It's very focused around stockand inventory and cost
(23:11):
accounting and that kind ofthing.
So it helps to have that niche.
And the other guy, james, sohe's more Sydney focused,
whereas I'm Australia wide.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, true, and was it hard, like because how long
has the other guy been with youthat does the warehouse
distribution?
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Three years.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Three years, yeah, warehouse distribution three
years.
Three years, yeah, was did hego like?
How?
How did how did he build hisniche?
Because sometimes and what Ialways struggle with was like
saying no to existing businessin the prospect of building your
niche, yep, and then, until youactually fully commit, you're
in like this gray area whereyou're like you still accept
stuff and you lie to yourselfand you're like, yeah, no, I'm a
niche recru, a niche recruiter,but you're still accepting, you
(23:49):
know, generalist work, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
So we made the call start of January last year.
So it was a bit of a quieterperiod but it made it a little
bit easier and because there wasstill the team here that could
take work that might not havebeen his space, it made it a
little bit of a transition andjust work out a split of some
kind.
But we just mapped it out fromlinkedin and just used a few
(24:16):
different scraping tools andcreated a list and then you
start um digital marketing andtapping them up there and then
you go go from there.
So it's been.
It's been pretty successful andI think it helps having
insights and knowledge of thatspace and it makes it a lot easy
to build credibility becausethen you can start saying all
the keywords and all the nuancesto that space that are quite
specific.
You get a lot of engagementback from clients for sure.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
What kind of support?
I've always wondered what therelationship is like from
different organizations that arein different areas.
So the head office of EdwardMann is in London.
You're working from Australia.
What is the support like from acompany that's in London?
How much could they possiblysupport you from there, if at
(24:58):
all?
What is the relationship like?
Do you report back to them oncea month and do a bit of a board
meeting?
Walk us through thatrelationship.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Yeah, so early days, because I had no idea what I was
doing.
It was a lot more frequent, sowe'd be catching up almost every
day I'm just having a chattalking about this, cause I get
them really well with my bosses,so quite friendly.
So it'd be just catching upabout how things are going and
so then we'd have a bit more ofa formal discussion about how
(25:27):
things are going, maybe once aweek and then, over a period of
time that's transitioned lessand less and I've become more
comfortable in what I'm doingand all operational and knowing
what to do, when to do it.
They're much more hands-off now,so I would say that fairly
infrequent, and it's just aWhatsApp chat text how things
are going.
I might do like a weekly emailblast to say oh, this is what's
(25:48):
happening, this is where we'reat.
So I do like a weekly emailblast to say oh, this is what's
happening, this is where we'reat.
So a lot less.
It's pretty independent now.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Are there expectations on you to do
certain numbers growth Like whatare the metrics that they're
looking at?
Speaker 1 (26:01):
I think so we sit down at the start of the year
and discuss what we want toachieve and where we want to be
and set goals and all that kindof thing and set up a forecast
of where we're at from a costperspective, what we wanted to
be doing from a billingperspective and all that kind of
thing.
But it's been a little bit lesshands-on from their end.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Do you ever get feedback from them around what
they're doing as well?
I'm just going to throw ascenario out for the moment.
They come to you and go allright, mate, how's business?
What's the?
You know?
What's the billings like?
What's the profit like?
Okay, looks good.
Do you ever turn the tables andgo, all right, well, tell me
how London's going.
How many consultants have yougot?
What's your profit like?
Less so more.
(26:42):
Just, I don't know if that'spossible.
I want to know that you'rehitting your targets.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
You need to tell me how you're going, mate.
Why should I still be here?
You could, but it was more moreinformation sharing.
So this is what we're doing.
That's working quite well.
How are you guys going withthat?
Is that working for you?
What?
What are we doing here?
What are we doing there?
So I would say it's been lessof a manager relationship in the
(27:13):
last year and a bit and more oflike an equal-equal partner
style engagement.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
So it's been really good.
Anything in the UK that they dothat we're missing here, like
is there any secret sauce, anyprocesses, the pace in which
they operate, the in-depthknowledge they have of their
clients, like comparing whatthey do, that makes them
successful compared to likeAussie recruiters.
Here that we really are justmissing.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
I don't think so.
I think it's just the trainingvolume.
So when you're there it's justgo, go, go from day one.
And it isn't always the casehere.
I think that the lifestyle herelends itself to it a little bit
, because when it's sunny andit's enjoyable to go outside and
you can have a good time andall that kind of thing, it's a
(27:53):
little bit harder to push that.
But in London in January,february, march, it's grim,
there's not much to do, it'sjust dark, so it's like I might
as well just work and just crackinto it.
That sounds really depressingit can be.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Yeah, I don't know how or why, but every single
person I speak to who talksabout the UK, they say the same
thing.
It is absolutely depressing.
For those number of months youdon't want to go outside and I
just sit there and wonder whywould you want to be there?
Speaker 1 (28:22):
London's awesome, though I love London.
If you're going there for ashort period of time, like your
visa, and you're in your early20s, you just want to have a
good time.
You can travel.
It's phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
It's very connected to all areas of the world.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Get a train to Paris in 90 minutes Wow really yeah,
yeah yeah, and you get from citycenter to city center, that
kind of thing.
But so December is awesome inLondon.
They're so festive, everyone'sin the pubs having a great time
and all that stuff's going on.
As soon as it flicks thatswitch to the new year, it's wet
, it's cold, it's rainy and allthat kind of stuff.
It's pretty miserable for acouple of months, but then, once
(28:57):
the sun starts coming out,there is no better place than
London in summer.
Everyone's in the parks,champagne, corks, popping,
barbecues, everyone's having agreat time.
Summer in London is awesome.
And then you've got summer inEurope, which is, depending on
where you go.
It can go forever, because youcan go to the southern point of
France and Italy and Greece.
(29:17):
Did you travel much when youwere over there?
Not as much as I would haveliked to.
Yeah, I did, but just wish Idid more.
You look back now should havedone this, should have done this
, but you can't operate likethat.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Yeah, so do you reckon those like grim months?
Those three grim months improveproductivity because there's
nothing else to do?
Speaker 1 (29:36):
I don't know, maybe.
Yeah, I'd say so, I'd saythere's an element to it,
there's a thousand otheragencies out there.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
mate, you have to fight.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Yeah, fight for everything.
It's dog, eat dog.
What were your work hours?
Um seven, seven, 30 to six andthen sometimes till seven.
It depends what I was doing.
Like during the world cup in2018, was it 2019?
Like the soccer world cup, Iremember the cause England were
(30:04):
playing quite well and they madeit to the semis or something.
I remember I had a job to filland I was like I'm filling this
and I've getting fine candidates, while England were playing on
the screen over there and justlooking at Hyde Park, just going
nuts because this guy justkicked this massive free kick.
Oh well, just crack.
It didn't mean as much to me ascompared to because England go
off when you have to notice,yeah, yeah and so, yeah, I just
(30:26):
had to do it, because if youdon't, someone else will, you've
just got to get yourself up forit and push through.
But If you don't, someone elsewill, you've just got to get
yourself up for it and pushthrough.
But it breeds a really strongwork ethic and really strong
habits.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
I think that's why UK Scottish Irish recruiters are
held in such high regard here,because they're Well, they come
over here and they absolutelycrush it.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Yeah, books it's an easy market.
It is an easy market.
Yeah, it's definitely an easymarket, but it's a slightly
different market.
It an easy market, but it's aslightly different market.
It's very relationship-basedhere, whereas I think timing and
volume work way better overthere, so it's a much more
process-driven recruitment overthere.
Yeah, relationships are goingto mean a lot, because if you're
selling into someone and theylike you and all that, it helps.
But I think the relationshipstuff and knowing your market
(31:09):
are way better is a bit moreimportant here.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Do you have any formal strategy?
I'm just thinking about EdwardMann as a business right now,
and so you've got you.
You've got another guy that'sbeen there for a long time Five,
five years, five years and thenone other, yeah, three years,
three years.
So good longevity out of thoseconsultants all in Sydney, yep,
do they work remotely or fromthe?
Speaker 1 (31:32):
office, so we're three days in and then two from
home.
I like getting in the office,so I'm in Monday to Thursday.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
So how do you have this relationship between the UK
and Australia?
Surely you can poach some oflike the good UK recruiters who
want to come to Australia andlike beef up Australian numbers
or vice versa, if someone fromAustralia wants to go to the UK,
like there's a really good linkthere.
Do you leverage that much?
Not as much as we should.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
So we'll probably look to do something similar the
next time we hire.
2024 was a bit of a tough yearfor a lot of people, but we'll
look to hire at some point thisyear.
Just got to figure out, get ourducks in a row and decide what
we're doing.
But that will be something toconsider.
But we'll look to hire at somepoint this year.
Just got to figure out, get ourducks in a row and decide what
we're doing.
Yeah, but that will be somethingto consider.
There's the visa requirementsand all that kind of thing you
need to play out, but I thinkit's a lot easier now than it
(32:21):
had been in the past, so we'llwork through that.
How many?
Speaker 3 (32:23):
consultants are in the UK.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
So there's four in the London office and then the
two founders and there's a guythat does the US.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Nice.
Okay, so you've got the US aswell.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Us from London, oh wow, and the two founders tap in
quite a lot to the US.
That's kind of three of them.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
US yeah, yeah, yeah To service from London.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Yeah, so they do mostly East Coast, that's New
York East Coast.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yeah, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
I think that makes it a little bit easier, because
the time difference is a littlebit better.
I don't really know, I don'task too much.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Maybe the takeaway from this Pody is you flip the
switch when you have your nextexecutive meeting.
You go all right, guys, you'rehitting your targets.
What's your profitability?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (33:06):
We get into the US and what's on a national basis.
What's sort of the busiestmarket Like do you get?
Like, is Melbourne and Sydneythe best for finance or have you
ever got any untapped littletreasures like out of line?
Speaker 1 (33:19):
So it really depends on the industry.
So Perth is really resourcesfocused, so they're typically
busy always.
It never really stops.
And then you might have littlehubs around the country that are
mining specific.
The same way Newcastle and theHunter Valley up north, like
Gladstone, rockhampton, all thatkind of thing, but Melbourne
(33:40):
and Sydney are the biggest, justpopulation size, for just
general financial services andaccounting industries.
So yeah, they're all relativelysimilar in their own little way
.
There's no real differencesbetween the two other than like
time differences or industryfocus or that kind of thing.
So pretty consistent Nice.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Are there any growth plans in Australia Like what
does the future look like foryou guys this year, next year,
is it?
Maybe it's not growth inheadcount, maybe it's growth in
billings, maybe it's reducingcosts.
What are, like, the main thingsyou're focused on?
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Yeah, profitability and pushing that as high as
possible and investing in theguys.
Now I'm trying to get the mostout of them.
I've tried since the last 12months just really reflecting on
what we need to do better andwhat we need to bring more of.
It's focusing on on our ownpersonal growth and being just
(34:38):
better at the craft.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
How do you do that?
What are you doing to invest inyou?
Investing in training?
Speaker 1 (34:43):
The pod has gotten a fair bit of referral, so using
that getting actual recruitmenttraders in.
So Laura Hopes is awesome, so Idon't know if you yeah yeah,
yeah, laura's great.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
What does?
So I don't know if you, yeah,yeah, yeah, laura's great.
What does she teach?
That's, like you know, helpsthe penny drop or reinforce any
patterns, behaviors, processes.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Yeah, so she does it all bespoke.
So sat down and we did athree-hour session with her on
BD.
It's different approaches, somapping out first 14 days
quarterly cycle what the firstcall should look like, objection
handling and just manage that.
We had to have five or sixtopics that we worked through in
three hours and that wasawesome.
(35:21):
It was really good.
She's great.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Yeah, nice.
And how does she say toapproach the first call?
Speaker 1 (35:28):
So she's similar to how I do it, where warming up
via LinkedIn, so connections,and then you might be
introducing a bit of value orsomething that you've got a
middle point or the connectionpoint, and then working from
there and then sent might be asalary guide, might be like a
little value doc about whatyou're doing, insights to the
market, a news article, and thenoff the back of that then you
(35:52):
alternate it via product versusservice.
So product being candidate,it's a really good candidate.
They can do X, be good for yourbusiness for reasons one, two,
three.
This is what they've achievedand then the next cycle might be
an article or a value doc.
So we started doing a lot moreof that in the last six months.
(36:14):
So it might be candidateexperience checklist, onboarding
guide, interview guide, thingslike that that they can use for
their own recruitment process.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Oh, interesting.
Okay, so you're developingdigital products, an interview
guide, for example, for hiringmanagers to become better at
interviews.
And then you're just saying hey, just thought I'd reach out,
we've developed an interviewguide, we'll help.
Next time you're interviewingsomeone here, it is yeah, and
just super soft.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
So, hey, this is something we've been working on.
Don't know if it's helpful, buta lot of companies have got a
value out of it.
Let me know what you think.
Use it if you want to.
If you don't, that's okay too.
Let me know if you have anyquestions.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
What's the like.
How do people receive it?
Really well.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Yeah, yeah, the one that's got the most action has
been the onboarding checklist.
Yeah, so I mapped it out.
I think it was like four points, so resignation and contract
signing and then saying okay,hiring managers to reach out and
say hi and congratulations,thanks for coming to the team,
(37:15):
and then maybe two weeks outwill be an organiser, coffee
organiser, catch up, da da da.
Next one will be day before.
Let them know what to expect onthe first day and give them a
buddy, or just organise what thefirst day is going to look like
, and then the first day justshow them around that kind of
thing, just like a checklist.
Four things to do.
Because a month out, becausethat period between resignation
(37:36):
to start date, can be anabsolute horror show if you
don't do it right.
And it helps when you've gotsomeone internally that's an
advocate and is working with youto make that happen.
So you kind of it's for yourown benefit, but it feels they
feel like you're just givingthem something for free.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
For sure, because I think a lot of companies they
don't even register on thatstuff.
They're like oh, I've just donea deal with Tom and the
candidate will show up on thedate.
I'll just expect for him tocome in.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Yeah, yeah, and because everyone's busy, right,
everyone's got their own stuff,their business as usual that
they need to deal with and sortout.
So they don't really thinkabout it because they're paying
for a service and they thinkthat you're going to deal with
it all and, yeah, it is our job.
But it helps when you've gotbuyback and someone managing it
from the other end and whenyou're working with a client
that does do it.
Wow, it's smooth, it works somuch easier and you know that
(38:22):
you're in safe hands and you'renot going to take your foot off
the pedal as much.
But you feel a little bit moreconfident that they're probably
going to last the journey aswell, because you know that
they're going to get theappropriate support, appropriate
guidance to.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
It's like 40% of staff leave if the onboarding's
poor.
Is that right?
Yeah, I believe that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I used tocreate branded.
Like I would white label it,like get the client logo on it,
like an onboarding document aswell, get them to go through
their goals.
Like client implementation, itwasn't as easy to implement as
what you've created.
But like they just don't doanything.
(38:59):
Like some clients, like maybe Ididn't recruit for always the
best clients, but sometimes theywould rock up and they'd be
like oh mate, there's nocomputer here and you're like oh
sorry, mate, I've beentraveling, I'll get it done.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
And yeah, little stuff like that that just gives
everyone the ear and it happens,but it makes it easier when the
company's on your side anddoing all the things that help
for sure.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yep, 100%.
And is there a lot of reversemarketing?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (39:26):
So post-COVID, that was just gold right.
You'd send a candidate andyou'd almost get a placement.
Most times is just gold rightyou send a candidate and you
almost get a placement.
Most times that's become lessand less, because everyone just
has done it and it's kind ofbeen rinsed and done with, but
doing it in a way that you'remuch more targeted.
So it might be a specificindustry or it might be a
specific skill set or a nichethat you know do well.
(39:49):
So in accounting dealershipaccounting what's that?
So a car dealership?
Right, the accounting in adealership is very, very
specific and it's very nuancedin terms of the systems and how
they do accounting.
So that's one that works reallywell.
It might be like mining andcost accounting that works
really well.
It could be food production andsimilar.
(40:10):
But if it's really targeted andyou've done the work prior and
you know exact achievements orsomething that works really well
or what that candidate's donereally well, then it makes it a
lot easier.
But if you just spray and prayand this guy's an accountant and
you're in Sydney, what do youthink?
Yeah, that's not the same.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
No, no, it's going to work, because in accounting are
you doing public practice Less,so so we're mostly commerce and
industry.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
We do do accounting practice, but less so.
It's more commerce and industry.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Yeah, okay, because you've got to be all in if
you're doing public practice.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Yeah, it's a hard space, it's a really hard space.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
People are not wanting to become accountants
anymore.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
So the pickup for accounting has dropped.
I don't know what the stats are, but there's a bit of an
attraction issue from the unisand so, funnily enough I'm
actually speaking to a guy thatruns his accounting firm that
we're trying to pull together awebsite to try and build a bit
more engagement for theaccounting industry.
So that'll happen over the nextfew months.
(41:08):
Okay, yeah, so that'd be quitecool.
He's really funny.
He's got this make accountinggreat again slogan and he's got
all of the hats and all thiskind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
Maga, maga.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
MAGA hats.
I don't love that, but he'sreally into it.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Does he actually just get make accounting great like
MAGA hats?
Speaker 1 (41:28):
It's a little bit different.
It's a little bit different.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
It actually works perfectly, make recruitment
great again.
Just doesn't really work thesame.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Not the same.
So, yeah, there's a bit of thatJust trying to make it a bit
more attractive, because I thinkpeople coming into accounting
just think it's accounting firmsor you think it's just
reporting.
But there's so much outside ofthat.
There's so much commercialelements to accounting that,
aside from just punching outmonth-end reporting, and it's so
closely linked to technologynow, which is a new dynamic Yep.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
So both of those parallels are like the spine, so
to speak, in a business.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Yeah, and it's really .
It's a great base to.
If, at some point, you wantedto start your own business,
understanding accounting is agreat leverage point and if you
want to progress to, like you'resaying, systems or data
analytics or operational, to bea CEO one day, having an
accounting background is superhelpful.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
A hundred percent, and then so are you just going
to stay with Edward Mann longterm and continue doing what you
do.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Yeah, it's hard to say at this point, I think, if
just pushing on growing, pushingon building out the team,
trying to become as profitableas possible, what that looks
like over the next couple ofmonths, I mean so a couple of
years, how we build out, whetherit's Sydney and then do another
office or do.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Really you think of another office.
Where would you go?
I?
Speaker 1 (42:49):
don't know yet.
We could probably do the EastCoast all from Melbourne yeah, I
mean from Sydney, sorry Whetherwe would do a Perth office,
maybe, maybe not.
Or whether you'd do Perth,Perth's bad man.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
It's too far away it is too far away, you may as well
just do the whole London thing.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Whether it's something like Singapore.
Yeah okay, that's cool.
So, yeah, big plans, but justgot to knuckle down and get the
job done first of all and get toa really good profitability
point and then building out theteam here.
We wouldn't go to Singaporeuntil we've got a really, really
(43:27):
solid team here.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
What's that like?
5, 10 people, 5, 10, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
What's the drawcard for Singapore?
Speaker 1 (43:33):
A bit of an Asian hub .
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yeah, yeah, is that far from Malaysia?
Yeah, it is pretty far.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
And the accounting standard's really good.
It's mostly English speaking.
There's a lot of expats there,so it's way more transferable
than you think.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
And the fees are way bigger, aren't they?
Or are they about 20%, 15%, 20%?
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Can be.
I know they're quite high inJapan, aren't they?
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Yeah, I think Japan's like 40% 50%.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Yeah, that's wild Cash to be made.
Yeah, yeah Now, singapore isreally, really expensive.
You get really big salariesover in Singapore.
There's a lot of execs over inSingapore.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
There's a lot of execs over in Singapore.
Speaker 3 (44:13):
Executive recruitment over there is huge because it's
a really corporate country.
There's not as much blue collar, so to speak, as most other
countries.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Yeah, so my conversations have been very,
very early days because we'd befive class years off, maybe
doing that, maybe sooner,depending on how things kick on.
So you probably know more aboutit than I do.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Yeah, yeah, so how are you seeing this year?
Do you feel the sentiment ischanging this year?
You made a couple of commentsbefore that last year was a bit
of a bad year, I think, for alot of recruiters.
How are you seeing things thisyear?
I think it's going to kick off.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
Yeah, so last week was the most job ads I've ever
seen for the first week of Janand they've all been ads
directly posted from hiringmanagers on LinkedIn.
So that's a really good signbecause generally it's what end
of Jan, early Feb, before itkicks off properly with the new
year, new me, resignation, andso to get that much activity
(45:08):
this early on is a really reallygood sign because it's only
going to improve, so it's notgoing to get worse.
Yeah, yeah.
So that's really good.
And even prior to that, I washaving conversations in October,
november, with clients thathave started putting in place
some level of commitment or someplan to hire for February,
(45:30):
march and to get that level ofcommitment four months out, and
all of them had been brand newroles and commercial roles, so
forward-thinking style roles,not just compliance reporting
stuff.
So to have that level ofcommitment with a brand new role
and a forward-thinking rolethat far out is a really really
good sign.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
So I think it's going to blow up 100%.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to itas well.
Hopefully this year is going tobe a cracker.
I think just anecdotally.
Obviously every recruiter I'vespoken to has got a really good
sentiment for this year,probably coming off a little bit
of exhaustion from last year.
So hopefully any uptick isgoing to be welcomed.
But, mate, we really appreciateyou coming on sharing your
(46:10):
journey jumping on the pod,since you've been following for
a while and it's been reallygood, absolutely.
Dream come true.
Thanks, mate, thanks guys,cheers.
Thanks for tuning in to anotherConfessions of a Recruiter
podcast with Blake and Declan.
We hope you enjoyed and got alot of value and insights out of
this episode.
(46:31):
If you do have any questions oryou would like to recommend
someone to come on theConfessions podcast, we would
love any introductions andremember the rule of the podcast
, like share and recommend it toa friend.
Until next time.
Hey guys, Tom from Edward Mann, we're accounting
and finance recruitment acrossAustralia.
Today on the podcast, we'll becovering my personal journey
with recruitment across Londonand then here to Australia and
then next steps and what we'redoing for 2025.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome back to another episode of Confessions
of a Recruiter.
Today we're with Tom Hunterfrom Edward Mann Mate.
It's been an incredible storyEight years now in the industry,
coming from country Victoria,going overseas becoming a
teacher, finding thatrecruitment's one of the best
paid gigs you can find without adegree, and now being equity
owner of Edward Mann Mate.
What a journey.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Thanks for coming on.
Yeah, absolutely, I'm a big fanof the show, so I'm pumped as
to be here Looking forward to it.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Awesome mate, appreciate it.
How many episodes have youlistened to?
All of them, all of them.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
All of them Apart from those.
There's a couple more recently.
So the early days was likeprime time, so you know the
Simpsons, like that was the peakperiod for confession.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Was it?
Yeah, okay, what's yourfavorite app?
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Oh, there's a few, so the one that I really liked is
the one with Inika McMahon.
Yeah, yeah yeah, Like that storywhere she was saying about how
she called the guy every weekfor a year or something and then
she said I'm going to keepcalling for a year until you
pick it up, until you answer thephone, and then on the 52nd or
whatever, the guy answered andsaid all right, I'll use you.
(01:30):
So that was awesome, but Iguess the ones that I've got the
most out of it was probablySean Sean Anderson, Philip Mpoxo
and then the stuff that MattyCossons does is just awesome.
He's a weapon, isn't he?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, awesome he's a weapon, isn't he?
Yeah, yeah, what do you mainlylisten to it for, like?
Is it education?
How to you know, find out thenext thing you don't know, or is
it?
Speaker 1 (01:49):
yeah, so I, um, I listen to a lot of recruitment
pods.
Um, I don't know what triggeredit at first.
I think it might have just beenyou guys on linkedin just
seeing it heave.
So I should listen to itdefinitely should and then heard
a few like this is awesome.
So mostly educational.
Yeah, just taking littletidbits from it, stuff that I
can action and use.
(02:11):
And then it just got into a bitof a habit and then, before you
know it, I was just listeningto it almost every day and I
listen to it when I'm at the gymor if I'm cooking or anything
that I'm just already doingsomething that's playing in the
background Nice, and then I'll.
There's something quite good,I'll.
So I use OneNote quite a lot onmy phone or the computer.
I'm just right now episode X atso-and-so time, just so I can
(02:32):
come back to it and write itdown or whatever, and what's
probably been the most impactfulthing that you've implemented
since listening to.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
you know all the guests that were that on
LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
definitely Content on LinkedIn by far.
So I don't know when you hadhim on the show, but I would
have listened to the pod withSean, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Sean, he had it on early, like in 2023.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah, okay, cool, so I would have listened to it.
I was on a train out toCampbelltown, just for context
Would have been December 2023, Ireckon, and I was just
listening to it.
Holy shit, I'm leaving money onthe table.
I need to get involved.
So good, fomo got me for sure.
(03:12):
And then, just since Januarystart of January last year
posting three times a week forabout six, seven-ish months, and
I was getting a fair bit ofengagement and getting a fair
bit of candidate stuff back, alittle bit of client stuff, but
not a huge amount.
So they do a bit of free contenton their website, so the
20-10-5 method.
(03:33):
And then I was getting a littlebit going on that from there,
but it was probably morecandidate-focused than client
stuff.
And then I just ended uppulling the trigger and doing
the actual paid.
And then it's been awesomesince and doing the actual paid,
and then it's been awesomesince it's just a lot more focus
, there's a lot more strategyabout how to go about it and
what to do and just liketemplate stuff, and that's been
really actionable.
And so, yeah, since it's beenawesome getting pretty
(03:55):
consistent engagement, havingpeople speak to me about seeing
content when I've never spokento them before.
Having clients reach out to methat I've never spoken before.
Hey, I'm recruiting for thisjob, can you help?
And then that turns intoexclusive work and just yeah,
it's been awesome.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
So the paid, fascinating the paid content
course that you did through Hoxo.
I've heard good things about it.
Yep, what actually is it?
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, so it's a I think it's an eight-week course
and then you're part of theircommunity forever, indefinitely
or whatever.
So there's an online communityI think the app's called Circle
or something.
So everyone that's ever donethe program is in that community
and are asking questions andwhatever.
And then each week for thefirst eight weeks you'll have a
(04:43):
session on, say, the Tuesday,with Sean and that's a group one
, and then they normally do two,depending on time zones, in the
one day.
So one will be like Australia4pm and the other one will be UK
4pm.
And then on the Thursday you'llhave a smaller group session
with one of their support.
What do you learn?
What are they telling you?
So, setting up your profile, tobe a bit of a funnel, and
(05:07):
setting it up so that as soon assomeone goes on to your profile
, they see what you do, servicesyou provide, how to go about it
and just approaching you as theperson to go to Yep.
And then there's week by week.
One is content, valuable, so avaluable piece of content,
credible content, so what youpiece of content, credible
content, so what you can do.
(05:27):
And then personal.
And then there's a couple ofother points in between.
I can't remember exactly whatthe other weeks were, but
they're the four main weeks andat the start is the 20-10-5
method, so connecting with 20,commenting and liking, so
engagement 10, and then fivevoice notes or messages reach
out.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
So what has more impact doing 2010 five or doing
the actual posting?
Speaker 1 (05:50):
I think you got to do both so funnily enough so for
the first.
So I did Sean's free thing onhis website at the start of the
year and for whatever reason, Ididn't listen to it all the way
through.
I was like, oh yeah, this lookssick, I'm just going to jump
into it.
And for whatever reason, Iassumed that 20 was connections,
10 was likes and 5 was comments, and so I wasn't doing the
(06:13):
reach outs.
I obviously didn't get as muchcoming back as a result of that,
but because it's kind of linkedto the content.
So the people that you're goingto be reaching out to is the
people that are engaging withyour content, because they're
the most warm.
And then it might be peoplethat have viewed your profile
and then people that have justconnected with you.
But you're going to get waymore interaction and they're
(06:36):
more likely to book in a meetingwith you or at least have a
phone call if they've seen yourcontent.
So if your content is goodenough and it's consistent
enough and they've seen it, thenthey're way more likely to
accept that call.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
So what are you saying?
I find this really interestingbecause you know I think me and
Declan have a more than averageprofile on LinkedIn.
You know we post quite a lot.
I probably dropped the ballwith engaging a little bit, if I
must say so myself.
So what are you saying in thesevoice notes?
(07:09):
Are you just like someone likesa post and you go?
Oh hey, declan, thanks forliking my posts, appreciate you.
If you ever want to look for anew job, let me know what do you
say?
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
So I guess there's two ways you want to go about it
, whether it's a candidate reachout or a client reach out, and
it really depends on your market.
So for most markets it's goingto be client-led.
Unless you're recruiting foraccounting practices because
they're crazy candidate short,then you're probably going to be
more that focus.
So you're introducing yourself,because on the voice notes you
can only do for about a minuteis the max, yeah.
(07:44):
So you kind of need to keep itrelatively short and sharp, and
so it might be introducingyourself, saying something about
why you're reaching out, andyou kind of want to do it with a
little bit of a pump up atfirst because you're saying
about them being I've noticedyour profile, I've noticed the
business.
If you've got something that youcan introduce, them being great
(08:06):
or whatever.
And then you might recognize atthe start thanks for engaging
or thanks for connecting with me, thanks for viewing my profile,
and you might.
There's a few different ways togo about it.
You can talk about marketinsights you're seeing, talking
about salaries, talking aboutany changes that are coming up.
You could do a little bit ofFOMO.
So if this is coming up, youneed to get ahead of it or this
needs to happen.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
And then just trying to book in a meeting or trying
to book in a call, okay, okay,interesting.
So I'm just trying to see how Ican relate that to Venditto, my
recruitment agency.
So someone likes a post of mine, whatever it's.
You know, average salary insales is 75,000.
Someone likes it.
I go to Billy Bob.
Hey, billy Bob, I appreciateyou liking the posts.
Saw your background.
You've got some greatexperience at Coca-Cola and
McDonald's.
Look, we recruit quite heavilyin those industries.
(08:52):
So maybe, if it's worth jumpingon a call, we'd love to have a
chat to you about furtherinformation that I can give,
over and above the salaryinsights.
Cheers.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yeah, something like that would work pretty well.
I'd probably put before there alittle bit of intrigue.
So I've noticed this in themarket, I'm seeing this
happening or something that'shappening in your space, and
then there's a reason for themto need to call you back because
you're giving them some value,because, at the end of the day,
you want to get them on thephone to you, but you need to
give them something first andforemost.
Yeah, okay, people are muchkeener to give you something if
(09:22):
they've received something first.
Yeah, the reciprocal stuffright.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
So what has that done ?
What are the outcomes of youimplementing this LinkedIn
strategy?
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, so from a billing perspective definitely
increased and the acceptance ofmeetings and just the
familiarity and credibility thatjust comes so quickly.
I don't think I've made alegitimate cold call where no
one.
Oh, I'm going to reach out tothem and they're already engaged
(09:52):
with me, first and foremost.
So it's not saying thateveryone knows me.
But I wouldn't have made a coldcold call for months because I
would have engaged with themfirst and then booked in a call
and then chatting with themfirst and getting enough
activity, that going just offthat method.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Was it hard to create the discipline?
Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, yeah.
So really hard at first and thefirst six months you're getting
fuck all engagement and ittakes ages to come through.
There would have been weekswhere you might get one, two
likes and then this is a bitshit, but looking back now, some
of the content was prettyfucking great, yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
So what's the difference when you first
started to now For the contentFor the content way more
structured.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And headlining headlining issuper important, like the hook.
Yeah, the hook.
Yeah, I'm still not great at itand I don't love it, because I
just hate being a bit dailymail-y, and you just got to get
over that.
You just got to create a goodenough hook that people come in,
because newspapers makemillions of dollars for a reason
(10:59):
right, because of the headlines.
Yeah, so you just got to bitethe bullet and do it?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, and does the whole team in Edward man over in
the UK?
Do they all get around Hoxo anddoing it?
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah.
So UK guys did it.
They're getting around it.
I think it is hard to maintainthe consistency of it.
So I would say they probablydon't do it as rigorously and
consistently as myself, becauseyou kind of need to enjoy it a
little bit and kind of need tomake it more of the daily task,
because I do all my content on aSunday because it's just too
(11:32):
busy during the week to do itproperly.
So I'll spend a couple of hourson a Sunday, schedule all five,
and then I don't really have tothink about it during the week
other than a little bit ofengagement.
But not everyone wants tocommit two or three hours on a
Sunday to write content for yourjob.
So it takes a fair bit ofdiscipline to do that.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Awesome and mate.
What's London recruitment like?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Oh, full on, yeah, really full on.
So I think is it like 10,000agencies in Australia?
Yeah, I think there's like45,000 in London.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Just in the city.
Yeah, just in the city.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yeah, just in the city it's wild, so super, super
full on cutthroat as just got tobe really, really urgent.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
You've recruited across multiple countries,
though.
Hey, like some people in the UK, People do.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah, we didn't, but people do.
We did ad hoc roles in for,like European businesses that
were based in London, but Iwouldn't say it was often like
the odd odd one in Luxembourg orGermany or something, but it
was primarily London.
But yeah, it's full on and Idid temp recruitment in London,
so it's even more urgent, right,and you'd have a job call in
(12:35):
and you need to get CVs acrossthat day, otherwise Robert
Half's getting six across andyou're missing out.
And it was good fun, great fun.
And the best learning trainingground you will get is in london
, in either temp recruitment ora high pace recruitment space,
because it's fun.
What?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
was it like going from teaching where it's like so
different to recruit and justexplain how you got the job?
Speaker 1 (13:00):
yeah, so I um, so I went over to London in 2016,.
Yeah, started 2016 and I did.
I was working in a school, andschool teaching in London is
different.
It's so contrasting becauseyou'll have little pockets where
(13:21):
really affluent, and you'llhave really gifted kids coming
into school, and then you'llhave really gifted kids coming
into school and then you'll haveother other areas, also the
same area, where there'sdisadvantaged people, and so
they might be coming in, theymight have had might not have
had breakfast that morning areally big, just all in the same
school, in the same classroom.
Okay, yeah, and so that thatwas tough and so, um, it's just
(13:41):
really, really difficult.
You get to the point where Iwasn't enjoying it.
I'm just yelling atsix-year-olds how long did you
do that?
For Six months, not very long,yeah, not very long at all.
And then I, because my degreewas useless, I basically Googled
how to make money without adegree, and then recruitment
comes up.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
That's such a good story because most recruiters
are probably in that boat whereeither one they are degree
qualified but they don't use thedegree.
Like I know, lawyers,accountants, psychologists, all
of these degree qualifiedprofessionals go.
I don't even want this degree,this is not what I'm interested
(14:23):
in.
And then they get intorecruitment and do really really
well.
What was the degree you had?
Speaker 1 (14:27):
I did a Bachelor of Psychology and then I did a.
Master's of Teaching.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So you Googled how to makemoney without a degree.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yeah, and then recruitment came up and then I
was like, oh okay, well, this isoverwhelming.
So I was like trying tounderstand it.
I went to interviews and Iprobably didn't really know what
was going on at first and howit even worked.
And then I got the jobeventually, after interviewing
for a little bit At Edward Mann,at Edward Mann, yeah, and it
was a steep learning curvebecause I what did?
(14:56):
You recruit Mechanic finance.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Oh, still, yeah, yeah , yeah, so same the whole way
through, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
And so I like to think I'm relatively personable,
but I was not good on the phoneto begin with, like that takes
a while to get used to.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
And I envision, like Wolf of Wall Street, vibes.
A little bit Everyone's insuits, everyone's high pace on
the phone, heaps of phone calls,phones ringing.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah, so I know a lot of the larger firms are like
that.
We were still pretty full on,but nothing compared to what the
stories you hear.
But it's still a little bitlike that.
And so high volume, super highvolume is on the phone and
you've got to rinse it.
So you learn pretty quickly.
And it took me a while to getthe hang of it properly.
And it was maybe two or threemonths in and I'm thinking, oh,
(15:37):
I'm struggling here, I'm notgood at this and it's taking a
little bit of time.
But then all of a sudden itclicks and I hang on taking a
little bit of time, but then allof a sudden it clicks.
Hang on.
I made a placement last week.
I'm working on one now.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I've got this coming up next week, there you go,
happy days.
Awesome.
What's the difference betweenthe UK and Australia?
Is it just more fast-paced, isit?
The billings are better there.
Is it worse there?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
The billings are better here.
Billings are way better herebecause salaries are higher, the
surplus and the volume ofagencies.
That makes it a little bitharder in terms of competition.
But then the urgency of howquickly you've got to move and
the feeling towards recruitersin the UK is not great.
Most companies don't reallylike them.
(16:22):
I don't think lots ofbusinesses love recruiters
anyway, yeah, but the feelingtowards recruiters is much more.
There's a stronger rapport hereand I think there's a greater
value of the work here.
Really, yeah, so I've foundintroducing yourself and
building credibility andbuilding rapport was way easier
here than in London.
But it teaches you just you'vegot to be consistent, you've
(16:44):
just got to make the activityand you've just got to be
resilient because the amount oftimes they just get hung up on
and all that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
They hang up on you.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
I can do yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah true, one of the guys thatI used to work with, on his
very first day I think it mighthave been like the first handful
of calls a client told him thathe was the worst recruiter
she'd ever spoken to.
It was his first day.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
He's like oh yeah, you're probably wrong.
Yeah, you're not wrong.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
So I wasn't there at the time that was before I
started, but that sort of shithappened so what field of temp
was it for accounting andfinance?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Was it like high tier big day rates or was it like
business?
Speaker 1 (17:25):
So my core market was qualified but a year or two
post-qualified.
So funnily enough, my keycandidate pool was Aussies and
Kiwis and it worked out quitewell because it kind of just
perpetuated a little bit becauseI had gone through the same
stuff that they did in terms ofgetting your visa sorted,
getting your NHS stuff sorted.
(17:47):
There's this biometricresidence permit it's like a
little card thing that you'vegot to get and getting all the
nuances of getting set up.
So I was basically justchatting to them about getting
set up because you have a two orthree-year visa over there.
They've just changed the threenow, but it was two back then
and so just helping themnavigate that and then I would
pick up jobs where they wouldwant.
An Aussie or a Kiwi or SouthAfrican is another one that goes
(18:09):
well over there and I justended up setting shortlists of
six people that I know that wereon the visas and that's exactly
what they're looking for.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Happy days.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah, it was great because I made so many mates
just doing that, because you seethem out on the town, because
you're just moving pockets inLondon.
There's so many Aussie pockets.
You'll see them out on a nightout in the town and you bump
into them and try not to connectwith them too much Whatever.
But yeah, it was great becauseyou have the same similarities,
(18:40):
same interests, so you end upjust building really good
connections.
And then, because I was addinga lot of value on top of just
finding them a job, I was ableto chat to them about what
travel might be coming up orwhat to do here or what nuances
might be happening for this andthat, and just perpetuate it
because referrals are coming outof nowhere.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
From a Canada perspective, so how long were
you there for?
And then you decided to comeback to Australia.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
So I was there for two and a half years and so my
visa was expiring and so Ididn't want to leave the company
.
They didn't want to lose me, soI got to set up the Australian
office, which was awesome.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
How was that?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
experience?
Oh, terrifying.
Yeah, so I came back December2019.
So it was what?
Two and a-.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Just before COVID.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Yeah, so we were eight weeks in for COVID so I
came back then.
So two and a half years into myrecruitment career, I kind of
think I know what I'm doing.
But in terms of a businesssense I was so green and then we
made a couple of placements.
In our first month I was like,hey, good to see you, this is
sick, awesome.
And then COVID hits and it'slike fuck, pretty full on.
(19:48):
I lent a lot on the guys in theUK.
So my bosses, the two founders,what did you do?
what did?
Speaker 3 (19:54):
I do so we was it just you at this point?
Speaker 1 (19:57):
nah, so it was me and another guy, james, so he's
still working with us.
So that was good, yeah, and wedidn't know, we were just trying
to figure it out.
So obviously, worked from homefor ages.
We had a contract still I thinkwe I'm trying to remember back
now because it's a while now Ithink we did have a contract
with our office space.
We were in a shared officespace but I think it might have
(20:17):
been like six months at the timeand we're able to be a bit
creative with what that lookedlike and extended and all that
kind of thing.
So we did manage through itbecause costs weren't too high.
It was pretty manageable, butdidn't really know what we were
doing Just trying to figure outand chasing leads and just
chatting to clients and justtalking and just trying to
create some sort of level ofrelationship and rapport,
(20:38):
because no one was reallyrecruiting right.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
And no one knew what they were doing.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
So everyone was figuring it out.
So I wasn't as big of adisadvantage compared to the
other bigger agencies, I suppose, because no one knew what they
were doing.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
So we're just figuring it out Well, I suppose,
because no one knew what theywere doing, so we're just
figuring it out.
Well, I guess the benefit youhad was you were just starting
up, so you didn't actually knowany different from an income
standpoint.
I mean, we share this sometimeson the potty, where I think
March 2020 or April 2020 waslike the first time my business
ever did a $6,000 revenue monthand I had like 11 staff on
(21:10):
salaries, and so when you'veonly brought in 6,000 revenue
for the month and you've got ahundred grand worth of salaries,
it's pretty challenging andscary because you're like I'm
used to this much income NowI've got this much income and my
expenses are here, but for youit seems like it was almost the
perfect time, where at least youwere still getting up and
(21:32):
running anyway.
So you just I don't know if itwas perfect timing.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
It was fine and it worked out, and we're still
standing.
Not every business did and notevery business made it through,
so the fact that we're stillhere is must be doing something
right.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
How did the UK go?
Like what were your businesspartners founders?
What were they saying?
Like what were your businesspartners?
Speaker 1 (21:51):
founders.
What were they saying?
That you were like.
The UK handled it slightlydifferent in terms of like
shutdowns and lockdowns and allthat kind of thing.
So the way the governmentapproached it is a little bit
different because they opened itup a lot earlier and they had
cases that were like crazy perday, whereas ours is slightly
different.
So we were a little bit delayedbehind what their bounce back
(22:12):
was, but it was relativelysimilar.
Companies weren't hiring.
Then they started hiring, butremotely, and then they were
doing this and doing this.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
So incrementally but yeah funny time and do you have
a niche within accounting andfinance or do you recruit any
accounting and finance rolewithin any type of business?
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah so um.
So me personally, I focus moreon the qualified level.
Um, that was more, more in thelast six months I've started
focusing on that.
Prior was a bit more split, sothat's another thing that took
from the pod.
Uh so um.
Mick Donaghy yeah, yeah, sohe's hyper niche, right, and
after listening to that one Iwas like, okay, we need to focus
(22:50):
in, yeah, and so leaned intothat a fair bit.
So one of the guys has quite aninterest in manufacturing and
production and distribution.
So he does accounting andfinance recruitment for those
industries.
So it's quite a niche spot andgetting a lot of buyback from
that because it's from anaccounting perspective.
It's very focused around stockand inventory and cost
(23:11):
accounting and that kind ofthing.
So it helps to have that niche.
And the other guy, james, sohe's more Sydney focused,
whereas I'm Australia wide.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, true, and was it hard, like because how long
has the other guy been with youthat does the warehouse
distribution?
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Three years.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Three years, yeah, warehouse distribution three
years.
Three years, yeah, was did hego like?
How?
How did how did he build hisniche?
Because sometimes and what Ialways struggle with was like
saying no to existing businessin the prospect of building your
niche, yep, and then, until youactually fully commit, you're
in like this gray area whereyou're like you still accept
stuff and you lie to yourselfand you're like, yeah, no, I'm a
niche recru, a niche recruiter,but you're still accepting, you
(23:49):
know, generalist work, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
So we made the call start of January last year.
So it was a bit of a quieterperiod but it made it a little
bit easier and because there wasstill the team here that could
take work that might not havebeen his space, it made it a
little bit of a transition andjust work out a split of some
kind.
But we just mapped it out fromlinkedin and just used a few
(24:16):
different scraping tools andcreated a list and then you
start um digital marketing andtapping them up there and then
you go go from there.
So it's been.
It's been pretty successful andI think it helps having
insights and knowledge of thatspace and it makes it a lot easy
to build credibility becausethen you can start saying all
the keywords and all the nuancesto that space that are quite
specific.
You get a lot of engagementback from clients for sure.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
What kind of support?
I've always wondered what therelationship is like from
different organizations that arein different areas.
So the head office of EdwardMann is in London.
You're working from Australia.
What is the support like from acompany that's in London?
How much could they possiblysupport you from there, if at
(24:58):
all?
What is the relationship like?
Do you report back to them oncea month and do a bit of a board
meeting?
Walk us through thatrelationship.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Yeah, so early days, because I had no idea what I was
doing.
It was a lot more frequent, sowe'd be catching up almost every
day I'm just having a chattalking about this, cause I get
them really well with my bosses,so quite friendly.
So it'd be just catching upabout how things are going and
so then we'd have a bit more ofa formal discussion about how
(25:27):
things are going, maybe once aweek and then, over a period of
time that's transitioned lessand less and I've become more
comfortable in what I'm doingand all operational and knowing
what to do, when to do it.
They're much more hands-off now,so I would say that fairly
infrequent, and it's just aWhatsApp chat text how things
are going.
I might do like a weekly emailblast to say oh, this is what's
(25:48):
happening, this is where we'reat.
So I do like a weekly emailblast to say oh, this is what's
happening, this is where we'reat.
So a lot less.
It's pretty independent now.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Are there expectations on you to do
certain numbers growth Like whatare the metrics that they're
looking at?
Speaker 1 (26:01):
I think so we sit down at the start of the year
and discuss what we want toachieve and where we want to be
and set goals and all that kindof thing and set up a forecast
of where we're at from a costperspective, what we wanted to
be doing from a billingperspective and all that kind of
thing.
But it's been a little bit lesshands-on from their end.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Do you ever get feedback from them around what
they're doing as well?
I'm just going to throw ascenario out for the moment.
They come to you and go allright, mate, how's business?
What's the?
You know?
What's the billings like?
What's the profit like?
Okay, looks good.
Do you ever turn the tables andgo, all right, well, tell me
how London's going.
How many consultants have yougot?
What's your profit like?
Less so more.
(26:42):
Just, I don't know if that'spossible.
I want to know that you'rehitting your targets.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
You need to tell me how you're going, mate.
Why should I still be here?
You could, but it was more moreinformation sharing.
So this is what we're doing.
That's working quite well.
How are you guys going withthat?
Is that working for you?
What?
What are we doing here?
What are we doing there?
So I would say it's been lessof a manager relationship in the
(27:13):
last year and a bit and more oflike an equal-equal partner
style engagement.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
So it's been really good.
Anything in the UK that they dothat we're missing here, like
is there any secret sauce, anyprocesses, the pace in which
they operate, the in-depthknowledge they have of their
clients, like comparing whatthey do, that makes them
successful compared to likeAussie recruiters.
Here that we really are justmissing.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
I don't think so.
I think it's just the trainingvolume.
So when you're there it's justgo, go, go from day one.
And it isn't always the casehere.
I think that the lifestyle herelends itself to it a little bit
, because when it's sunny andit's enjoyable to go outside and
you can have a good time andall that kind of thing, it's a
(27:53):
little bit harder to push that.
But in London in January,february, march, it's grim,
there's not much to do, it'sjust dark, so it's like I might
as well just work and just crackinto it.
That sounds really depressingit can be.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Yeah, I don't know how or why, but every single
person I speak to who talksabout the UK, they say the same
thing.
It is absolutely depressing.
For those number of months youdon't want to go outside and I
just sit there and wonder whywould you want to be there?
Speaker 1 (28:22):
London's awesome, though I love London.
If you're going there for ashort period of time, like your
visa, and you're in your early20s, you just want to have a
good time.
You can travel.
It's phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
It's very connected to all areas of the world.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Get a train to Paris in 90 minutes Wow really yeah,
yeah yeah, and you get from citycenter to city center, that
kind of thing.
But so December is awesome inLondon.
They're so festive, everyone'sin the pubs having a great time
and all that stuff's going on.
As soon as it flicks thatswitch to the new year, it's wet
, it's cold, it's rainy and allthat kind of stuff.
It's pretty miserable for acouple of months, but then, once
(28:57):
the sun starts coming out,there is no better place than
London in summer.
Everyone's in the parks,champagne, corks, popping,
barbecues, everyone's having agreat time.
Summer in London is awesome.
And then you've got summer inEurope, which is, depending on
where you go.
It can go forever, because youcan go to the southern point of
France and Italy and Greece.
(29:17):
Did you travel much when youwere over there?
Not as much as I would haveliked to.
Yeah, I did, but just wish Idid more.
You look back now should havedone this, should have done this
, but you can't operate likethat.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Yeah, so do you reckon those like grim months?
Those three grim months improveproductivity because there's
nothing else to do?
Speaker 1 (29:36):
I don't know, maybe.
Yeah, I'd say so, I'd saythere's an element to it,
there's a thousand otheragencies out there.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
mate, you have to fight.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Yeah, fight for everything.
It's dog, eat dog.
What were your work hours?
Um seven, seven, 30 to six andthen sometimes till seven.
It depends what I was doing.
Like during the world cup in2018, was it 2019?
Like the soccer world cup, Iremember the cause England were
(30:04):
playing quite well and they madeit to the semis or something.
I remember I had a job to filland I was like I'm filling this
and I've getting fine candidates, while England were playing on
the screen over there and justlooking at Hyde Park, just going
nuts because this guy justkicked this massive free kick.
Oh well, just crack.
It didn't mean as much to me ascompared to because England go
off when you have to notice,yeah, yeah and so, yeah, I just
(30:26):
had to do it, because if youdon't, someone else will, you've
just got to get yourself up forit and push through.
But If you don't, someone elsewill, you've just got to get
yourself up for it and pushthrough.
But it breeds a really strongwork ethic and really strong
habits.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
I think that's why UK Scottish Irish recruiters are
held in such high regard here,because they're Well, they come
over here and they absolutelycrush it.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Yeah, books it's an easy market.
It is an easy market.
Yeah, it's definitely an easymarket, but it's a slightly
different market.
It an easy market, but it's aslightly different market.
It's very relationship-basedhere, whereas I think timing and
volume work way better overthere, so it's a much more
process-driven recruitment overthere.
Yeah, relationships are goingto mean a lot, because if you're
selling into someone and theylike you and all that, it helps.
But I think the relationshipstuff and knowing your market
(31:09):
are way better is a bit moreimportant here.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Do you have any formal strategy?
I'm just thinking about EdwardMann as a business right now,
and so you've got you.
You've got another guy that'sbeen there for a long time Five,
five years, five years and thenone other, yeah, three years,
three years.
So good longevity out of thoseconsultants all in Sydney, yep,
do they work remotely or fromthe?
Speaker 1 (31:32):
office, so we're three days in and then two from
home.
I like getting in the office,so I'm in Monday to Thursday.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
So how do you have this relationship between the UK
and Australia?
Surely you can poach some oflike the good UK recruiters who
want to come to Australia andlike beef up Australian numbers
or vice versa, if someone fromAustralia wants to go to the UK,
like there's a really good linkthere.
Do you leverage that much?
Not as much as we should.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
So we'll probably look to do something similar the
next time we hire.
2024 was a bit of a tough yearfor a lot of people, but we'll
look to hire at some point thisyear.
Just got to figure out, get ourducks in a row and decide what
we're doing.
But that will be something toconsider.
But we'll look to hire at somepoint this year.
Just got to figure out, get ourducks in a row and decide what
we're doing.
Yeah, but that will be somethingto consider.
There's the visa requirementsand all that kind of thing you
need to play out, but I thinkit's a lot easier now than it
(32:21):
had been in the past, so we'llwork through that.
How many?
Speaker 3 (32:23):
consultants are in the UK.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
So there's four in the London office and then the
two founders and there's a guythat does the US.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Nice.
Okay, so you've got the US aswell.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Us from London, oh wow, and the two founders tap in
quite a lot to the US.
That's kind of three of them.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
US yeah, yeah, yeah To service from London.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Yeah, so they do mostly East Coast, that's New
York East Coast.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yeah, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
I think that makes it a little bit easier, because
the time difference is a littlebit better.
I don't really know, I don'task too much.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Maybe the takeaway from this Pody is you flip the
switch when you have your nextexecutive meeting.
You go all right, guys, you'rehitting your targets.
What's your profitability?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (33:06):
We get into the US and what's on a national basis.
What's sort of the busiestmarket Like do you get?
Like, is Melbourne and Sydneythe best for finance or have you
ever got any untapped littletreasures like out of line?
Speaker 1 (33:19):
So it really depends on the industry.
So Perth is really resourcesfocused, so they're typically
busy always.
It never really stops.
And then you might have littlehubs around the country that are
mining specific.
The same way Newcastle and theHunter Valley up north, like
Gladstone, rockhampton, all thatkind of thing, but Melbourne
(33:40):
and Sydney are the biggest, justpopulation size, for just
general financial services andaccounting industries.
So yeah, they're all relativelysimilar in their own little way
.
There's no real differencesbetween the two other than like
time differences or industryfocus or that kind of thing.
So pretty consistent Nice.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Are there any growth plans in Australia Like what
does the future look like foryou guys this year, next year,
is it?
Maybe it's not growth inheadcount, maybe it's growth in
billings, maybe it's reducingcosts.
What are, like, the main thingsyou're focused on?
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Yeah, profitability and pushing that as high as
possible and investing in theguys.
Now I'm trying to get the mostout of them.
I've tried since the last 12months just really reflecting on
what we need to do better andwhat we need to bring more of.
It's focusing on on our ownpersonal growth and being just
(34:38):
better at the craft.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
How do you do that?
What are you doing to invest inyou?
Investing in training?
Speaker 1 (34:43):
The pod has gotten a fair bit of referral, so using
that getting actual recruitmenttraders in.
So Laura Hopes is awesome, so Idon't know if you yeah yeah,
yeah, laura's great.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
What does?
So I don't know if you, yeah,yeah, yeah, laura's great.
What does she teach?
That's, like you know, helpsthe penny drop or reinforce any
patterns, behaviors, processes.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Yeah, so she does it all bespoke.
So sat down and we did athree-hour session with her on
BD.
It's different approaches, somapping out first 14 days
quarterly cycle what the firstcall should look like, objection
handling and just manage that.
We had to have five or sixtopics that we worked through in
three hours and that wasawesome.
(35:21):
It was really good.
She's great.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Yeah, nice.
And how does she say toapproach the first call?
Speaker 1 (35:28):
So she's similar to how I do it, where warming up
via LinkedIn, so connections,and then you might be
introducing a bit of value orsomething that you've got a
middle point or the connectionpoint, and then working from
there and then sent might be asalary guide, might be like a
little value doc about whatyou're doing, insights to the
market, a news article, and thenoff the back of that then you
(35:52):
alternate it via product versusservice.
So product being candidate,it's a really good candidate.
They can do X, be good for yourbusiness for reasons one, two,
three.
This is what they've achievedand then the next cycle might be
an article or a value doc.
So we started doing a lot moreof that in the last six months.
(36:14):
So it might be candidateexperience checklist, onboarding
guide, interview guide, thingslike that that they can use for
their own recruitment process.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Oh, interesting.
Okay, so you're developingdigital products, an interview
guide, for example, for hiringmanagers to become better at
interviews.
And then you're just saying hey, just thought I'd reach out,
we've developed an interviewguide, we'll help.
Next time you're interviewingsomeone here, it is yeah, and
just super soft.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
So, hey, this is something we've been working on.
Don't know if it's helpful, buta lot of companies have got a
value out of it.
Let me know what you think.
Use it if you want to.
If you don't, that's okay too.
Let me know if you have anyquestions.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
What's the like.
How do people receive it?
Really well.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Yeah, yeah, the one that's got the most action has
been the onboarding checklist.
Yeah, so I mapped it out.
I think it was like four points, so resignation and contract
signing and then saying okay,hiring managers to reach out and
say hi and congratulations,thanks for coming to the team,
(37:15):
and then maybe two weeks outwill be an organiser, coffee
organiser, catch up, da da da.
Next one will be day before.
Let them know what to expect onthe first day and give them a
buddy, or just organise what thefirst day is going to look like
, and then the first day justshow them around that kind of
thing, just like a checklist.
Four things to do.
Because a month out, becausethat period between resignation
(37:36):
to start date, can be anabsolute horror show if you
don't do it right.
And it helps when you've gotsomeone internally that's an
advocate and is working with youto make that happen.
So you kind of it's for yourown benefit, but it feels they
feel like you're just givingthem something for free.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
For sure, because I think a lot of companies they
don't even register on thatstuff.
They're like oh, I've just donea deal with Tom and the
candidate will show up on thedate.
I'll just expect for him tocome in.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Yeah, yeah, and because everyone's busy, right,
everyone's got their own stuff,their business as usual that
they need to deal with and sortout.
So they don't really thinkabout it because they're paying
for a service and they thinkthat you're going to deal with
it all and, yeah, it is our job.
But it helps when you've gotbuyback and someone managing it
from the other end and whenyou're working with a client
that does do it.
Wow, it's smooth, it works somuch easier and you know that
(38:22):
you're in safe hands and you'renot going to take your foot off
the pedal as much.
But you feel a little bit moreconfident that they're probably
going to last the journey aswell, because you know that
they're going to get theappropriate support, appropriate
guidance to.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
It's like 40% of staff leave if the onboarding's
poor.
Is that right?
Yeah, I believe that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I used tocreate branded.
Like I would white label it,like get the client logo on it,
like an onboarding document aswell, get them to go through
their goals.
Like client implementation, itwasn't as easy to implement as
what you've created.
But like they just don't doanything.
(38:59):
Like some clients, like maybe Ididn't recruit for always the
best clients, but sometimes theywould rock up and they'd be
like oh mate, there's nocomputer here and you're like oh
sorry, mate, I've beentraveling, I'll get it done.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
And yeah, little stuff like that that just gives
everyone the ear and it happens,but it makes it easier when the
company's on your side anddoing all the things that help
for sure.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yep, 100%.
And is there a lot of reversemarketing?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (39:26):
So post-COVID, that was just gold right.
You'd send a candidate andyou'd almost get a placement.
Most times is just gold rightyou send a candidate and you
almost get a placement.
Most times that's become lessand less, because everyone just
has done it and it's kind ofbeen rinsed and done with, but
doing it in a way that you'remuch more targeted.
So it might be a specificindustry or it might be a
specific skill set or a nichethat you know do well.
(39:49):
So in accounting dealershipaccounting what's that?
So a car dealership?
Right, the accounting in adealership is very, very
specific and it's very nuancedin terms of the systems and how
they do accounting.
So that's one that works reallywell.
It might be like mining andcost accounting that works
really well.
It could be food production andsimilar.
(40:10):
But if it's really targeted andyou've done the work prior and
you know exact achievements orsomething that works really well
or what that candidate's donereally well, then it makes it a
lot easier.
But if you just spray and prayand this guy's an accountant and
you're in Sydney, what do youthink?
Yeah, that's not the same.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
No, no, it's going to work, because in accounting are
you doing public practice Less,so so we're mostly commerce and
industry.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
We do do accounting practice, but less so.
It's more commerce and industry.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Yeah, okay, because you've got to be all in if
you're doing public practice.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Yeah, it's a hard space, it's a really hard space.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
People are not wanting to become accountants
anymore.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
So the pickup for accounting has dropped.
I don't know what the stats are, but there's a bit of an
attraction issue from the unisand so, funnily enough I'm
actually speaking to a guy thatruns his accounting firm that
we're trying to pull together awebsite to try and build a bit
more engagement for theaccounting industry.
So that'll happen over the nextfew months.
(41:08):
Okay, yeah, so that'd be quitecool.
He's really funny.
He's got this make accountinggreat again slogan and he's got
all of the hats and all thiskind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
Maga, maga.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
MAGA hats.
I don't love that, but he'sreally into it.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Does he actually just get make accounting great like
MAGA hats?
Speaker 1 (41:28):
It's a little bit different.
It's a little bit different.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
It actually works perfectly, make recruitment
great again.
Just doesn't really work thesame.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Not the same.
So, yeah, there's a bit of thatJust trying to make it a bit
more attractive, because I thinkpeople coming into accounting
just think it's accounting firmsor you think it's just
reporting.
But there's so much outside ofthat.
There's so much commercialelements to accounting that,
aside from just punching outmonth-end reporting, and it's so
closely linked to technologynow, which is a new dynamic Yep.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
So both of those parallels are like the spine, so
to speak, in a business.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Yeah, and it's really .
It's a great base to.
If, at some point, you wantedto start your own business,
understanding accounting is agreat leverage point and if you
want to progress to, like you'resaying, systems or data
analytics or operational, to bea CEO one day, having an
accounting background is superhelpful.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
A hundred percent, and then so are you just going
to stay with Edward Mann longterm and continue doing what you
do.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Yeah, it's hard to say at this point, I think, if
just pushing on growing, pushingon building out the team,
trying to become as profitableas possible, what that looks
like over the next couple ofmonths, I mean so a couple of
years, how we build out, whetherit's Sydney and then do another
office or do.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Really you think of another office.
Where would you go?
I?
Speaker 1 (42:49):
don't know yet.
We could probably do the EastCoast all from Melbourne yeah, I
mean from Sydney, sorry Whetherwe would do a Perth office,
maybe, maybe not.
Or whether you'd do Perth,Perth's bad man.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
It's too far away it is too far away, you may as well
just do the whole London thing.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Whether it's something like Singapore.
Yeah okay, that's cool.
So, yeah, big plans, but justgot to knuckle down and get the
job done first of all and get toa really good profitability
point and then building out theteam here.
We wouldn't go to Singaporeuntil we've got a really, really
(43:27):
solid team here.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
What's that like?
5, 10 people, 5, 10, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
What's the drawcard for Singapore?
Speaker 1 (43:33):
A bit of an Asian hub .
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yeah, yeah, is that far from Malaysia?
Yeah, it is pretty far.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
And the accounting standard's really good.
It's mostly English speaking.
There's a lot of expats there,so it's way more transferable
than you think.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
And the fees are way bigger, aren't they?
Or are they about 20%, 15%, 20%?
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Can be.
I know they're quite high inJapan, aren't they?
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Yeah, I think Japan's like 40% 50%.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Yeah, that's wild Cash to be made.
Yeah, yeah Now, singapore isreally, really expensive.
You get really big salariesover in Singapore.
There's a lot of execs over inSingapore.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
There's a lot of execs over in Singapore.
Speaker 3 (44:13):
Executive recruitment over there is huge because it's
a really corporate country.
There's not as much blue collar, so to speak, as most other
countries.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Yeah, so my conversations have been very,
very early days because we'd befive class years off, maybe
doing that, maybe sooner,depending on how things kick on.
So you probably know more aboutit than I do.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Yeah, yeah, so how are you seeing this year?
Do you feel the sentiment ischanging this year?
You made a couple of commentsbefore that last year was a bit
of a bad year, I think, for alot of recruiters.
How are you seeing things thisyear?
I think it's going to kick off.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
Yeah, so last week was the most job ads I've ever
seen for the first week of Janand they've all been ads
directly posted from hiringmanagers on LinkedIn.
So that's a really good signbecause generally it's what end
of Jan, early Feb, before itkicks off properly with the new
year, new me, resignation, andso to get that much activity
(45:08):
this early on is a really reallygood sign because it's only
going to improve, so it's notgoing to get worse.
Yeah, yeah.
So that's really good.
And even prior to that, I washaving conversations in October,
november, with clients thathave started putting in place
some level of commitment or someplan to hire for February,
(45:30):
march and to get that level ofcommitment four months out, and
all of them had been brand newroles and commercial roles, so
forward-thinking style roles,not just compliance reporting
stuff.
So to have that level ofcommitment with a brand new role
and a forward-thinking rolethat far out is a really really
good sign.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
So I think it's going to blow up 100%.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to itas well.
Hopefully this year is going tobe a cracker.
I think just anecdotally.
Obviously every recruiter I'vespoken to has got a really good
sentiment for this year,probably coming off a little bit
of exhaustion from last year.
So hopefully any uptick isgoing to be welcomed.
But, mate, we really appreciateyou coming on sharing your
(46:10):
journey jumping on the pod,since you've been following for
a while and it's been reallygood, absolutely.
Dream come true.
Thanks, mate, thanks guys,cheers.
Thanks for tuning in to anotherConfessions of a Recruiter
podcast with Blake and Declan.
We hope you enjoyed and got alot of value and insights out of
this episode.
(46:31):
If you do have any questions oryou would like to recommend
someone to come on theConfessions podcast, we would
love any introductions andremember the rule of the podcast
, like share and recommend it toa friend.
Until next time.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
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The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.