November 25, 2024 • 52 mins
In this episode I'm joined by Declan Quigley to explore the history of sturgeon in Irish waters. We talk about the recent campaign by the Irish Wildlife Trust to reintroduce this ancient fish. The conversation dives into the history of sturgeon in Ireland, discussing their critical endangerment and the factors that led to their decline, including overfishing and habitat loss. Declan shares his extensive research findings, revealing that while sturgeon haven’t been confirmed to spawn in Irish rivers, they have a historical presence in coastal waters. The episode highlights the challenges and potential for sturgeon farming as a conservation tool, as well as the importance of preserving knowledge about these remarkable creatures. Listeners will also discover the cultural significance of sturgeon in Ireland and the ongoing efforts to ensure the survival of this iconic species.
Takeaways:
- The Irish Wildlife Trust advocates for a feasibility study to reintroduce sturgeon into Irish waters.
- Despite historical presence, evidence suggests sturgeon may have never spawned in Irish rivers.
- Sturgeons are ancient fish, often referred to as living fossils due to their long evolutionary history.
- Declan Quigley highlights the critical decline of sturgeon populations due to overfishing and habitat loss.
- Efforts in France aim to breed sturgeon, potentially leading to increased sightings in Irish waters.
- Sturgeon farming may contribute positively to conservation by supplying caviar and reducing poaching.
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(00:30):
What a fun time to bring youthis episode.
And I understand that some ofyou might be listening to this episode,
you know, a number of monthslater, maybe even a year or two years
later.
So just so you know, where weat, it is early June 2023 and a couple
of weeks back, Irish WildlifeTrust launched a campaign to ask
(00:54):
the Irish government toconduct feasibility study for reintroducing
or restoring, should I say,sturgeon into Irish water.
It's a.
It's a species of anadromousfish, European sturgeon or Atlantic
sturgeon.
There are two of them.
So.
So they launched that campaignand probably week later, or maybe
(01:19):
two weeks later, Tadam.
There's a big sturgeon foundor caught.
I think it was found.
It's not, I'm not clear atthis moment in the river.
Sh.
It's like first time in 30years, Sturgeon in Irish waters.
And by the way, that river isthe same river.
River where in 19th centurywas big sturgeon female was caught
(01:47):
full of spawn.
So this is the same river 30years later, massive sturgeon, not
that massive, but a bigsturgeon found.
So obviously cue theconspiracy theories.
And week later, I'm comingwith this podcast about Irish sturgeon.
So I'm not a part of any conspiracy.
(02:08):
I was trying to bring you thatepisode for about two years.
I was working two years to getthat episode.
Not constantly, but on and offtime, by time after time, encouraged
by listeners, especially byone listeners shout out to Johnny.
This episode is, you know,happened thanks to you and thanks
to, you know, reminding me andkind of like encouraging me to do
(02:31):
that episode.
And the reason it took me solong is that it was really hard to
find someone who could talkabout sturgeon in Irish waters.
Right?
Irish sturgeon.
It wasn't Irish sturgeon.
Like I said, it was eitherEuropean or Atlantic sturgeon, but
let's say, you know, sturgeonand Irish or UK waters.
(02:51):
And you know, there are threepillars to my podcast, so to say.
Like pillar number one isobviously to present balanced view
on every story.
So bring the.
Bring the voices and viewsfrom every side of a.
Of every conservation orwildlife story.
Pillar number two arescientific projects, scientific papers.
(03:12):
You know, I recorded quite afew of those and a few more are already
in a can.
But the third pillar of thepodcast that is not least, not less
important, and probably itmight turn out to be the most important
over time, is to preserve theknowledge of how the nature used
(03:33):
to look like to talk withpeople who had an opportunity to
experience nature and, youknow, how the natural environment
looked like that is gone nowjust to preserve their knowledge,
just preserve their experience.
And this is one of those episodes.
So during attending one of thethose fish conferences, scientific
(03:55):
conferences, I got in touchwith gentleman named Declan Quigley.
And I can only describe Declanas an independent researcher.
He's an incredible person.
He wrote over 460 articles andpapers about the various species
of fish and stuff like that.
And he had like extensiveknowledge and material related to
(04:20):
sturgeon in Ireland.
So that was great opportunityand I, you know, big thank you for
to Declan and to his wife forinviting me to his house in Wicklow.
And those of you who watchedthis episode on YouTube, you can
see us sitting in Declan'skitchen and talking about sturgeon
in Ireland.
(04:40):
So as always you can accessthose articles and papers and links
to Eilish Wildlife Trust blogsand all those things.
If you're a subscriber to my newsletter.
The newsletter is for free.
You can find a link in thedescription of this show going there,
click on the linknewsletter.thomas outdoors.com subscribe
(05:01):
to the newsletter.
And in that newsletter you'renot only getting notifications about
new episodes of the podcast,but you also getting all those extra
links and articles andannouncements and other other stuff
that are related to what wetalk on any given episode of the
podcast.
Okay, so subscribe to thenewsletter and yeah, that's all for
(05:23):
the introduction.
Now all that's left is toinvite you to enjoy the reminder
of the episode of this podcastwhere I talk with Declan Quigley
about sturgeon and Irish andUK waters for that matter, about
the, you know, whether it'sreally feasible or realistic to bring
(05:44):
them back, how it happenedthat they became extinct, problems
with the sturgeon like thehybridizations and many other interesting
things.
So I'm sure you will enjoythis episode and yeah, that's it.
Enjoy.
Declan, it is an absolutehonor speaking with you.
(06:06):
Thank you so much for yourtime and welcome to the show.
Thank you Tommy.
You're very welcome.
Twicklow.
Haha.
Listen, when I was thisepisode I wanted to do this episode
for probably two years and itwas very hard to find anyone who
knows anything about sturgeonin Ireland, about Irish sturgeon.
(06:31):
And you know those fish are,I'm very careful using term extinct.
I usually talk aboutextirpated like wolves, they're being
extirpated from Ireland.
They're not extinct from Ireland.
But I think that with in case.
Of sturgeon, it's more of acase that they're extinct because
(06:54):
it was also Very hard to findany information about sturgeon, which
tells me that also thatknowledge about the fish is getting
extinct.
So I am just delighted to be.
Able to speak with you aboutthose fantastic fish.
Well, we have.
Let's say sturgeon are a veryancient fish.
(07:16):
They've been around since thetime of the Jurassic, the dinosaurs,
about 200 million years ago.
And they are regarded asliving fossils because they haven't
changed their morphology verymuch over the last 200 million years.
(07:39):
The fossil record verifiesthat they're an.
Ancient fish because they alsohave an unusual.
Their brain is not bony like anormal fish, right?
It's cartilaginous like a shark.
And they also have a notochordrather than vertebrae and have this
(08:02):
unusual heterocercal tail.
So at the moment, it'sreckoned that.
There'S about 25 species ofsturgeon that.
Occur worldwide, mainly intemperate and tropical.
Areas in the Northernhemisphere, Only.
(08:23):
In.
Irish waters here, northwestEurope, we have.
At least two species, theEuropean sturgeon.
And the Atlantic sturgeon,which is also found in North America.
When I started looking atsturgeon, it must be.
I've been writing articles for45 years now and I've published more
(08:47):
than 460 articles.
But when I start looking atsturgeon, I was surprised that there
were very.
Few references in thescientific literature about Irish
sturgeon.
So I found this unusualbecause it's such an iconic species
that it generally.
(09:08):
Tends to draw media attentionif one is caught.
So I decided to go and trawl.
Through the Irish newspaperarchives back to.
1738, and I came up with 243records from Ireland.
(09:29):
So I was able to carry outquite a lot of detailed analysis
on that.
And it was very surprising.
The results, actually.
Sturgeon in general areregarded as critically endangered
species, not just in Ireland here.
But across the whole world.
There is only one spawningpopulation of European sturgeon left
(09:54):
in Europe, and that's in theRiver Garonne in Bay of.
Biscay, whereas previouslythey were known to.
Spawn in the Rhine and the Elbe.
But there is no evidence thatthey actually spawned in Irish waters,
or indeed.
In UK waters, which issurprising, because.
If they were spawning in theRhine, you would imagine that they
(10:18):
would have spawned here as well.
I came up with about 75% ofthe sturgeon records from Ireland
here were all found in coastalwaters, and about.
Half of those were found inthe Irish sea.
(10:40):
Only about 25% of the recordswere found in estuarine waters, and
very few.
Actually in fresh water.
So There is no evidence that they.
Actually spawned here, eventhough there was.
One exceptionally large femalethat was caught in the river.
(11:00):
Sure.
Back in the 1840s that wasfull of spawn.
And the guy who found it, he.
Actually remarked that therewas enough eggs in that female to
supply the whole.
Of that river system.
(11:22):
But she would have need to have.
Found a suitable mate.
And there weren't very many ofthem around at the time either.
Declan, tell me, are theyspawning in the freshwater?
Are they spawning in salt water?
Are they migrating?
What's their spawning behavior?
(11:44):
Most species of sturgeon areanadromous, that.
Is, they're like salmon.
They spawn in fresh water andthey migrate to the sea to feed.
There are some species thatoccur in.
China that spend all of theirlife in fresh water.
But I say the most of them arelike a salmon.
(12:08):
They spawn in freshwater andgo to.
Feed in the sea.
Now, even though there is nodirect evidence that they spawned
in Irish rivers, sturgeon is ahighly migratory species.
So the fish that we are.
Well, let's say the fish thatwe used to see in the Irish Sea.
(12:31):
Were basically probably comingfrom the Goron.
And migrating northwards onthe feeding migration.
And I think they wereattracted to.
The Irish Sea because theylike shallow, sandy areas.
There was quite a lot of records.
From Dundalk Bay, where someof their.
Favorite food occurs, which is cockles.
(12:54):
Yeah.
And also Dublin Bay.
This is going back to the 1800s.
Again, I found some referencesrecently actually to sturgeon.
Well, what, they weren'tregarded as sturgeon, they were called.
(13:14):
They thought there were salmonactually in the river in Limerick.
The Shannon one was four and ahalf meters long, but it obviously
wasn't the salmon.
Subsequently there was a lotmore records recorded from the River
(13:34):
Shannon, but not upstream of Limerick.
So again, there's no evidence,as you would imagine, that they.
If they were caught furtherupstream, they would have made news.
So the earliest records I'veseen there.
Is from the 12th century andthey were mentioned in the Annals
(13:55):
of inischvalen.
It was 11:15.
There's also a mural inClonmacnoise showing a sturgeon.
But again, there's no evidencethat they actually were captured
there.
It's probably they came fromdown the stream in Limerick.
(14:19):
So it's possible that whilesturgeon may have been exploring
the estuaries that they.
Didn'T go up any further, theywere just feeding.
Now, because it's regarded asa critically.
Endangered species, it's a panEuropean species, if you like, even
(14:39):
though it's not, if you likedoesn't spawn here.
And some people might notregard it.
As native, but there's manyspecies of fish that occur in European
waters that.
Don'T actually spawn here.
For example, bluefin tuna,they migrate up.
To Norway and they go back to.
The Mediterranean or across tothe western Atlantic to spawn.
(15:02):
And you also have like many cetacean.
Species that are protected inIrish waters.
Which don't breed here.
They, they just migrate hereas part.
Of their normal feeding migration.
And, and yet they regardedtechnically as native.
(15:25):
But basically the sturgeon isnative to northwest Europe.
It's not necessarily endemicto Ireland.
Is it that there, there is achance of seeing them again or is
in Ireland or is it like thepopulation is gone, gone and they
have no chance to migrate?
(15:45):
So because I thought thatthey, there was like a Irish population,
so called, and then they got,you know, killed, overfished, whatever
you want to call it, extinct.
Is that the case or is it westill have a chance of actually seeing
sturgeon in Irish waterspotentially migrating from somewhere.
(16:07):
As I say, there's one endemicpopulation left in the River Garonne.
Most of the sturgeonpopulations that frequented other
European rivers are basicallyextinct, mainly due to the construction
of barriers on the rivers,pollution, but primarily due to overexploitation
(16:31):
as well.
Well, up until in 1977, there was.
About 38,000 tons of sturgeon.
And that's all species ofsturgeon, wild.
Sturgeon that werecommercially harvested.
But by 2011 that had dropped400 tons.
And in the intervening yearssturgeon farming.
(16:54):
Has taken off and there's at least.
50,000 tons of sturgeon farmed worldwide.
Now the French fisheriesauthorities have been attempting
to breed the sturgeon in theRiver Garonne and release juveniles.
(17:16):
And they were doing that upuntil about 2007.
And they were expecting, ifsuccessful, that.
The adults would be returninglast year.
Or from last year becausethey're a.
Very slow growing fish.
They don't mature untilthey're 15 or.
16 years at least.
(17:39):
So it's a very long term.
Project.
To try and reintroduce sturgeon.
Successfully, it seems anyway.
So hopefully if the Garonneproject is successful, we will begin
to see more sturgeon in Irishwaters and further northward.
(18:04):
It would be nice to sort of.
Think that we could farmsturgeon here for restocking, but
it's hard to kind.
Of argue the case when they were.
Never regarded or is noevidence that.
They were actually spawning here.
But we do have some of thelargest and cleanest rivers in Europe
(18:28):
in.
Ireland so maybe it couldbecome a donor population here.
Now, there's been lots ofissues as well.
Sturgeon can easily hybridizethe species, and farming of sturgeon
(18:50):
has kind of crossbred.
Various species, basicallybecause they give better growth rates.
Okay.
And a lot of the smaller sturgeon.
End up in the pet trade.
When you put a sturgeon in your.
Fish tank and a year later, it.
Might have gone in at 5 or.
(19:10):
6 grams, and it's a kilo, so.
They quickly outgrow their.
Fish tank, aquarium, and Isuppose people don't want to.
Kill the fish, so they mayrelease it into the wild.
(19:31):
And this can create lots ofproblems if you're trying to introduce
or rehabilitate nativesturgeon populations.
Declan, I got to ask you aboutthe sturgeon farming.
We know what environmentalproblems are with salmon farming,
(19:52):
with sea lice and waste andall that.
Are there similar problems,environmental problems with sturgeon
farming, or is it, like, alittle bit cleaner endeavor?
Well, I'd be a little bitbiased myself in answering that question
because I'm.
A salmon farmer myself andhave been.
For most of my life.
(20:15):
But the sturgeon.
The farming of sturgeon occursin freshwater, so there's much greater
opportunity to control theconditions within freshwater farms.
Okay, so let's.
I haven't heard of anybodycomplaining about them.
(20:36):
There aren't.
It may seem like a lot ofsturgeon, say 50,000 tons, but it's
quite small compared to, say,over a million tons of farm salmon
worldwide.
So you need to kind of balancewhat the environmental impact is
and the possible extinction ofa species.
(21:00):
Yeah.
So you reckon that thesturgeon farming plays a role as
a reservoir of genes, so tosay, for sturgeon and possible reintroductions
to.
To the wild.
So unlike the salmon farming,the sturgeon farming could be regarded
as a contributor toconservation, Is that right?
(21:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
Sturgeon was mainly harvestedfor caviar, which, if you go into
the airport now, duty free,you pay up to €10,000.
Per kilo for caviar.
So because of the high priceof caviar, there's a lot of pressure
(21:48):
still on wild stocks,obviously due to poaching.
So if farm sturgeon canreplace that.
Demand, it will hopefullyreduce the level.
Of illegal fishing of wildsturgeon in the future.
(22:08):
That's what I would hope, anyway.
How does the.
So you were talking about thepopulation of sturgeon in Europe.
In the.
In the European sturgeon.
I know that there is, like, anactive recreational fishery of sturgeon
in Canada.
In America, this is differentspecies of sturgeon completely.
(22:29):
Do you know how they're doing there?
Is that population in a littlebit better condition than in Europe?
White sturgeon is one of the biggest.
Ones that actually occurs inthe Pacific.
Rivers and it is very popularwith anglers.
Again, a lot of the large rivers.
On the Pacific side of North America.
(22:55):
Have been highly developed forhydroelectric dams.
And this has obviously causedissues further upstream spawning
sturgeon there.
Sturgeon have been introducedinto a lot of putt and take fisheries
in the uk.
(23:15):
Again, it's not really anatural environment for them.
So.
I used to be an angler myself,so I wouldn't be really attracted
to fishing for sturgeon in a pond.
I was fishing for them in apond in Poland for when I was starting
with angling.
So that I was starting inthose, like you said, little ponds
(23:37):
and they were like thoselittle sturgeons.
They call it sturgeon.
I think they're sterlet.
Yes.
But you know, back then it waslike, oh, you caught a sturgeon and
you know, and I was looking atthe, at the magazines, angling magazines
from Canada, and see thismassive fish, like.
No, this doesn't look like this.
Yeah, well, I.
(23:58):
Some anglers have caughtsturgeon in the.
River Severn, which isbasically across the pond here from
me.
But most of them were found tobe hybrids, so they were obviously
escapees or fish that had beenreleased by.
(24:19):
From aquaria, I would imagine.
You know, there was oneactually, a.
Small sturgeon, about 1.3kilos that was caught in Locnay in
2016.
So I haven't heard of theresults yet as to whether it was
(24:40):
a hybrid or a real European sturgeon.
If it was to get up to LochNey, it would have to have.
Passed up to the River Bandand all the fish passes on that system.
So I kind of wondering maybeif it was all.
It might have been dumped inLoch Ney from a tank, you know, so.
(25:06):
But I haven't heard the fullstory yet.
When was the last sturgeoncaught in Ireland?
What is like a last validatedor the one that you would consider
being a wild, like 100% wild sturgeon.
What year was it, do you know?
That was 1987.
Oh, yeah, May 1987.
(25:28):
There was Sturgeon.
It's about 10 kilo weight.
He was cut off to Kish Lighthouse.
Off Dublin Bay and it was soldto bishops, you know, fish traders.
I think it was around £900 it made.
(25:49):
Wow.
So.
And they in turn sold it on.
To White's on the Green, whichis an upmarket restaurant in Dublin
and that was served up to theunsuspecting last consumers of the
(26:09):
last sturgeon in Ireland.
How did you get interested?
How did you get, you know,like there is a little bit of a,
you know, we really didn'tstart with introduction about yourself,
so you might use thatopportunity to introduce yourself
a little bit now.
But how did you get interestedin those fish?
(26:33):
Because clearly you've seenthe decline and how they're reports
are being less and less ofsightings and.
Right, so you kind of like awitness the demise of sturgeon in
Ireland.
Well, as I said, I was just.
Curious why there was so fewrecords in the scientific literature.
(26:57):
And as a fish biologist I wasalways interested in sturgeon and
reading what.
Sort of research was going onelsewhere in Europe.
I was particularly interestedin the archaeological.
Side of it because at the endof the last ice age, the Atlantic
(27:20):
sturgeon, which is effectivelynative to Labrador, Canada.
It turned up in the Baltic.
And natural spawningpopulations in Baltic rivers including
Lake Ladoga, they seem to displace.
(27:43):
The European sturgeon whenthey arrived.
And this was the end of thelast ice age.
So things were quite cold then.
And of course Canada is quitecold in that latitude.
So it was a species that wasable to push out the European sturgeon.
(28:03):
But eventually as thingswarmed up, the climate warmed up.
It appears that the Europeansturgeon started migrating further
north and hybridized with theAtlantic sturgeon.
And these hybrids migratedfurther southwards into Biscay.
(28:29):
Because they have foundarchaeological remains.
Of sturgeon in variousNeolithic sites and they were able
to identify from the scales ordisguises whether or not they were
European or Atlantic or hybrids.
(28:53):
So there were a number of sturgeon.
In the Natural History Museumin Dublin here that were caught.
One was caught in the Liffey in.
The pool beg salmon fishery inthe Liffey back in the 1840s and
another.
One in the River Boyne justfurther north.
(29:16):
And there was a lady called Hannah.
From the University of Warsawactually who.
Took samples from both ofthese sturgeon for DNA analysis.
And she discovered fragmentsof the Atlantic sturgeon, that's
(29:41):
Assupinser Oxyrhynchus, in thelargest one from the River Leffey,
whereas the river, the onefrom the River Boyne was Capensur
stereo, the European sturgeon.
So it wasn't 100% conclusivebecause the DNA was quite degraded.
(30:04):
But there was some evidence of the.
Atlantic sturgeon in that specimen.
So I took some close upphotographs of the Scutes and I sent
them to the archaeologistsdown in France.
(30:27):
And in Spain, who were experts basically.
In identifying which specieswas which, based on the scutes.
And they were of the opinion that.
It was European sturgeon, butit could also have been a hybrid.
(30:50):
So my interest, I suppose waspurely academic.
It's an iconic species.
It's actually called brodawnfjarna in Irish.
Whereas salmon is called brodon.
And.
(31:12):
The salmon has always been kind.
Of revered in Ireland.
Whereas I think that thesturgeon, a.
Good example perhaps of aniconic European species, not just
eu, but it's also found in theBlack Sea in the Mediterranean.
So I think it would be a goodspecies, like a symbol of European
(31:38):
unity and perhaps an evenbigger EU in the future as well,
where this species has occurred.
So I think, you know, when Iwas a kid, we've had so many changes
(31:59):
in currency.
Salmon always featured on thecoinage, the two shilling coin in
Ireland.
So maybe there's a case of putting.
Sturging on our coinage andmaybe our EU coinage.
Oh, that would be great.
I think that would be a great idea.
(32:19):
Declan, tell me, like when thesturgeon were at the time where the
sightings or catching sturgeonwas still, you know, going on in
Ireland, were there anyattempts to save the species, any
attempts at conservation orwas it just not a thing at the time
(32:41):
and nobody was payingattention that there's less and.
Less of them in the waters.
There doesn't appear to havebeen any.
Attempts to save sturgeonduring the 19th century.
It was just we suddenly woke up.
In the 20th century andrealized that this species was almost
(33:02):
extinct.
So apart from the French andalso now the Germans as well, fisheries
research, they're the onlyprograms that are actively and practically
trying to reintroduce European sturgeon.
(33:25):
It's the same in the uk.
There is, I suppose theIndustrial Revolution there didn't
help.
And it's not just sturgeon.
It affected lots of differentspecies of fish.
It's lots of species arecoming and.
Going, becoming extinct and wedon't know about it.
(33:47):
This just happened to be onethat we do know about.
Yeah, that is the problem,that it's to some extent it is like,
what did we lost that we don'teven know that we lost it?
Declan, tell us a little bitabout the cultural and political
importance of a sturgeon.
(34:09):
In the article you sent me andthat we're going to link in the show
notes, there is a story aboutthe sturgeon being offered by one
person to another as apolitical gift and something like
that.
So they had a clearly hugecultural Meaning and importance in
Ireland.
Yes.
(34:30):
It was King Edward ii in the14th century.
He introduced an act wherebyall sturgeons were his if they were
caught.
So it does suggest that the species.
(34:50):
Was not so common even then.
Right.
But it was a royal fish.
It became a royal fish and ofsignificant political interest because
at that stage.
Ireland was part of the United Kingdom.
(35:13):
And King Edward II decreed,also became.
Part of Irish law, if youlike, at the time.
And over the years, sturgeonhas featured.
A lot in political terms inIreland as well as the UK, of course.
(35:34):
But there is a story from 1608when the High King of Donegal, in
his own peninsula, Cairo,Doherty, he was meeting the mayor
of Derry and the mayor ofDerry anyway, somehow insulted him
(36:00):
and he went back in a rage toInishon and he consulted with his
elders and his more peacefulelders suggested that.
They might.
He might give a gift in apeace offering, if you like, to the
(36:23):
mayor.
And it so happened that there was.
A sturgeon caught at the same time.
So he gave the sturgeon anyway to.
The mayor and everything wasokay for a while, but then he came
back.
And he killed the mayor.
And then the mayor.
(36:47):
The mayor's troops chased himback to.
In his show and killed him.
Yeah.
So it was.
So up until the formation of the.
Irish Free State, effectivelyall sturgeon that were caught in
(37:10):
Ireland were had to go to thereigning monarch in the UK and this
occurred quite frequentlyduring the 19th century where.
Sturgeon were.
A number of Irish sturgeonwere, let's.
Say, donated to QueenElizabeth, for example.
(37:36):
And also to various rulers in Ireland.
UK rulers, if you like, would be.
The Lord Lieutenants of Ireland.
So if they weren't able to get.
It over to the Queen, theywould feast on it in Dublin Castle.
So when the Irish Sarah Start Arryn.
(37:59):
Was established in 1922.
This, let's call.
It a tradition at this stage seemed.
To kind of persist in Irish politics.
I don't think they knew what to.
Do when a sturgeon was caught,but they.
(38:20):
Most of the sturgeon that were caught.
After 1922 were donated to thePresident of Ireland.
And he had shown to your calic.
And you had Eamon de Valera and.
Carol Odalik and Erskine Chillers.
Right up until you know, the 1970s.
These sturgeon were given tothe president because they thought
(38:45):
this is what should be donewith it.
Even Richard Mulcahy, who wasthe Lord.
Lieutenant of the new SerStodairn, he was presented with a
sturgeon.
There was another sturgeoncaught around the same time, actually.
And it was presented to theQueen in, sorry, the King in London.
(39:09):
It was caught in Irish waters, but.
It was caught by a UK trawler.
And it was landed intoSwansea, so they weren't going to
give it back to us.
Now, the interesting thingabout the sturgeon.
That were donated to the Irishpresidents over the years was that
(39:31):
in most.
Cases they gave them toecclesiastical institutions rather
than having dinner up in Orsand Uchteron.
But in hindsight, I wasthinking the.
Reason for that was that theecclesiastical institutions were
(39:52):
more powerful than the politicians.
Right.
So it would be veryinteresting to see.
What they would do if anothersturgeon was caught now.
But.
EU law now anyway dictates that.
(40:14):
The sturgeon has to bereleased alive.
So maybe that solves theproblems for the Irish government.
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Oh, that's a good one.
What do you think?
Like, why even, you know, thething is hard to understand for me
is, like, why nobody wastrying to protect the fish that was
(40:38):
so important and so valued.
The Royal fish, it was givenas a gift and surely people saw that
the population is decliningand yet no one done anything.
Like, I'm just wondering,like, why is it like just the mind
frame at the time was notthere, or like, what are your thoughts
(41:01):
on this?
Well, I can only think that ingeneral terms.
The fishery resources ofIreland were for generations not
considered to be important.
And it still is an ongoing debate.
When Ireland and joined the EUin 1973, the fishermen didn't do
(41:28):
very well out of it in termsof quota.
And it's an ongoing issue.
So I think that sturgeon,because they weren't so common and
they weren't spawning here,that really, they.
(41:51):
They didn't catch.
It's not a good word, I suppose.
Let's say they weren'tperceived, they weren't known to
be perhaps so critically endangered.
Do you think it would be agood idea to have a sturgeon reintroduction
(42:13):
project in Ireland?
Or do you think because theyprobably never spawn here, that it's
not a good idea?
Would you like to see that,that sort of a project?
You know, hypotheticallyspeaking, I understand that there's
like a literally zero chanceof this happening in the near future,
but there is a lot of talkabout reintroducing species right
(42:37):
now across the Europe andIreland and the uk.
Do you think it would be agood idea to try to reintroduce them
to Ireland?
Would you like to see thatproject or do you think it's not
a.
Good Idea, I wouldn't call it reintroduce.
I know that there's a lot ofinterest in rewilding of lots of
(42:59):
species.
In Europe, but I think even though.
The sturgeon, there's noevidence that spawned here, as I
say, it's a pan European species.
So I think that every Europeancountry has perhaps a responsibility
(43:21):
to ensure that the species survives.
And I think as part of that.
Program, maybe there's astrong case for Ireland to farm sturgeon,
for.
(43:42):
Rewilding, if you likerewilding the sea, not rewilding
the river as such.
But we have some really goodrivers here that would be suitable,
I think.
But again, that's a political question.
Unfortunately.
This is the unfortunate bitabout the than the nature conservation,
(44:07):
that it often gets politicizedand the arguments have nothing to
do with actual ecologicalaspect of it.
It's more of a who and why and where.
Yeah, well, if you take for example.
Wild boar, they were at onestage native to Ireland or appear
(44:27):
to have.
Been anyway, and they were allhunted to extinction, like the wolf
as well.
We even had brown bears hereand hyenas.
And.
So I suppose some people wouldn't.
Mind introducing wolves andbrown bears and wolves, dare I say
(44:53):
it.
But you know, I think whenthey were here, we weren't here.
A lot of cases and Ireland,it's changed so much.
I kind of leave that to the.
Politicians to decide, well, Idon't know, there's nothing going
(45:15):
to happen then.
You know, there is an argumentthat when the wolves still were around
in Ireland, there wereapparently more people in Ireland
than there is now.
They just didn't have thatmany goddamn cars at the time.
Yes, we had major immigration.
During the famine years whenwe had twice as many or three times
(45:38):
as many people living in Ireland.
But I think the last wolf was.
Shot in 1756, around that time.
So I don't think people were too.
Concerned about Waltz at that stage.
They just wanted to survive.
Just to switch gears a littlebit, tell me clearly over your career
(46:07):
as a fish biologist, as aperson who is into wildlife, you've
seen the decline of thenatural environment and species and
fish stocks and all that.
Can you give us, from theperspective of many decades of experience,
(46:28):
how what we see now comparesto how the seas and rivers and waters
in Ireland look like 30, 40,even more years ago?
How big is that decline?
Well, when I was, I suppose in.
My teens, and that's goingback over.
(46:51):
50 years now, there were majorenvironmental issues in Ireland,
mostly pollution caused bysewage and farming I remember actually
(47:11):
as a kid going up to Dublin and.
The pong of the Liffey wasincredibly bad.
But I think there's been ahuge improvement actually since the
1960s in Ireland in terms ofwater quality.
(47:33):
There's still obviously,issues, but there were.
Lots of reports of fish killsevery year across Ireland.
During the 70s, but thatdeclined substantially during the
1980s.
You still get occasionalkills, but I think that people in
(47:56):
general are much.
More attuned now to the environment.
I think that fish, if I justtake fish, because people don't see
them and they're not kind ofcuddly, they may not have been as
aware of what species we hadhere and what were maybe endangered.
(48:23):
We didn't know it becauseapart from.
Salmon and trout, everythingelse was kind.
Of considered to be almostinedible in Ireland, unlike in Poland,
where you eat everything.
So I think there's a greaterconsciousness there.
And one thing about fish isthat different kind of from land
(48:44):
animals, they're.
Not restricted by politicalboundaries or jurisdictions.
They move with the sea, they migrate.
They may naturally repopulate areas.
They're a little bit of an unknown.
I mean, if you look at the.
Number of land animals inIreland here, I don't know, it's
(49:08):
probably 30 or 40 species mammals.
That is.
We have almost 600 species offish that occur in Irish waters,
and that's increasing every year.
Now it is.
Even this week, there was anew species scientifically described
(49:32):
from Irish waters.
My interest over the years has been.
Recording all of these unusualspecies because.
Only about 20 of the 600 arecommercially exploited.
And they're the ones thatreceive all the scientific research.
(49:54):
Nobody knows very much aboutthe rest of them.
And they're the.
The kind of gaps that I'mtrying to fill.
And the sturgeon is one of those.
Oh, that's a very importantjob that you're doing.
And, you know, thank you for.
For doing that, Declan.
What, like, if you would givean advice to, you know, young people,
(50:17):
and maybe a little older thanyoung, but still young, what would
be your advice for them?
What should they do to ensurethe, you know, continuous improvement
of the state of theenvironment and fish and like, what.
What would be your advice forthem for the future generations?
(50:40):
Look outside the box.
That's.
That's short and to the point.
Yes, I think that, as I say.
There'S huge opportunitiesthere for the up and coming generation
of biologists and fishery.
Biologists in particular, toexpand the amount of research in
(51:03):
terms of species numbers.
As I say, we.
We know very little about mostof them.
So there is enough work there for.
Generations ahead.
And I think to continue tocreate awareness of what species
may be under threat andhopefully we may.
(51:27):
Be able to save them in time.
Maybe one day we'll see thesturgeon in Irish waters again.
I look forward to having ameal in whites on the green someday.
Declan, thank you very much.
I really appreciate your time.
It's been pleasure.
Thank you.
John,
To the episode then it was clearly.
(51:48):
Something that interests you.
So I have a favor to ask.
Please leave me 5 star ratingon the podcasting app that you are
using.
Whether it's an Apple podcastor Spotify.
Go in there and leave me fivestar rating and if you happen to
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This is great help for theshow and I really appreciate you
(52:12):
doing it.
What a fun time to bring youthis episode.
And I understand that some ofyou might be listening to this episode,
you know, a number of monthslater, maybe even a year or two years
later.
So just so you know, where weat, it is early June 2023 and a couple
of weeks back, Irish WildlifeTrust launched a campaign to ask
(00:54):
the Irish government toconduct feasibility study for reintroducing
or restoring, should I say,sturgeon into Irish water.
It's a.
It's a species of anadromousfish, European sturgeon or Atlantic
sturgeon.
There are two of them.
So.
So they launched that campaignand probably week later, or maybe
(01:19):
two weeks later, Tadam.
There's a big sturgeon foundor caught.
I think it was found.
It's not, I'm not clear atthis moment in the river.
Sh.
It's like first time in 30years, Sturgeon in Irish waters.
And by the way, that river isthe same river.
River where in 19th centurywas big sturgeon female was caught
(01:47):
full of spawn.
So this is the same river 30years later, massive sturgeon, not
that massive, but a bigsturgeon found.
So obviously cue theconspiracy theories.
And week later, I'm comingwith this podcast about Irish sturgeon.
So I'm not a part of any conspiracy.
(02:08):
I was trying to bring you thatepisode for about two years.
I was working two years to getthat episode.
Not constantly, but on and offtime, by time after time, encouraged
by listeners, especially byone listeners shout out to Johnny.
This episode is, you know,happened thanks to you and thanks
to, you know, reminding me andkind of like encouraging me to do
(02:31):
that episode.
And the reason it took me solong is that it was really hard to
find someone who could talkabout sturgeon in Irish waters.
Right?
Irish sturgeon.
It wasn't Irish sturgeon.
Like I said, it was eitherEuropean or Atlantic sturgeon, but
let's say, you know, sturgeonand Irish or UK waters.
(02:51):
And you know, there are threepillars to my podcast, so to say.
Like pillar number one isobviously to present balanced view
on every story.
So bring the.
Bring the voices and viewsfrom every side of a.
Of every conservation orwildlife story.
Pillar number two arescientific projects, scientific papers.
(03:12):
You know, I recorded quite afew of those and a few more are already
in a can.
But the third pillar of thepodcast that is not least, not less
important, and probably itmight turn out to be the most important
over time, is to preserve theknowledge of how the nature used
(03:33):
to look like to talk withpeople who had an opportunity to
experience nature and, youknow, how the natural environment
looked like that is gone nowjust to preserve their knowledge,
just preserve their experience.
And this is one of those episodes.
So during attending one of thethose fish conferences, scientific
(03:55):
conferences, I got in touchwith gentleman named Declan Quigley.
And I can only describe Declanas an independent researcher.
He's an incredible person.
He wrote over 460 articles andpapers about the various species
of fish and stuff like that.
And he had like extensiveknowledge and material related to
(04:20):
sturgeon in Ireland.
So that was great opportunityand I, you know, big thank you for
to Declan and to his wife forinviting me to his house in Wicklow.
And those of you who watchedthis episode on YouTube, you can
see us sitting in Declan'skitchen and talking about sturgeon
in Ireland.
(04:40):
So as always you can accessthose articles and papers and links
to Eilish Wildlife Trust blogsand all those things.
If you're a subscriber to my newsletter.
The newsletter is for free.
You can find a link in thedescription of this show going there,
click on the linknewsletter.thomas outdoors.com subscribe
(05:01):
to the newsletter.
And in that newsletter you'renot only getting notifications about
new episodes of the podcast,but you also getting all those extra
links and articles andannouncements and other other stuff
that are related to what wetalk on any given episode of the
podcast.
Okay, so subscribe to thenewsletter and yeah, that's all for
(05:23):
the introduction.
Now all that's left is toinvite you to enjoy the reminder
of the episode of this podcastwhere I talk with Declan Quigley
about sturgeon and Irish andUK waters for that matter, about
the, you know, whether it'sreally feasible or realistic to bring
(05:44):
them back, how it happenedthat they became extinct, problems
with the sturgeon like thehybridizations and many other interesting
things.
So I'm sure you will enjoythis episode and yeah, that's it.
Enjoy.
Declan, it is an absolutehonor speaking with you.
(06:06):
Thank you so much for yourtime and welcome to the show.
Thank you Tommy.
You're very welcome.
Twicklow.
Haha.
Listen, when I was thisepisode I wanted to do this episode
for probably two years and itwas very hard to find anyone who
knows anything about sturgeonin Ireland, about Irish sturgeon.
(06:31):
And you know those fish are,I'm very careful using term extinct.
I usually talk aboutextirpated like wolves, they're being
extirpated from Ireland.
They're not extinct from Ireland.
But I think that with in case.
Of sturgeon, it's more of acase that they're extinct because
(06:54):
it was also Very hard to findany information about sturgeon, which
tells me that also thatknowledge about the fish is getting
extinct.
So I am just delighted to be.
Able to speak with you aboutthose fantastic fish.
Well, we have.
Let's say sturgeon are a veryancient fish.
(07:16):
They've been around since thetime of the Jurassic, the dinosaurs,
about 200 million years ago.
And they are regarded asliving fossils because they haven't
changed their morphology verymuch over the last 200 million years.
(07:39):
The fossil record verifiesthat they're an.
Ancient fish because they alsohave an unusual.
Their brain is not bony like anormal fish, right?
It's cartilaginous like a shark.
And they also have a notochordrather than vertebrae and have this
(08:02):
unusual heterocercal tail.
So at the moment, it'sreckoned that.
There'S about 25 species ofsturgeon that.
Occur worldwide, mainly intemperate and tropical.
Areas in the Northernhemisphere, Only.
(08:23):
In.
Irish waters here, northwestEurope, we have.
At least two species, theEuropean sturgeon.
And the Atlantic sturgeon,which is also found in North America.
When I started looking atsturgeon, it must be.
I've been writing articles for45 years now and I've published more
(08:47):
than 460 articles.
But when I start looking atsturgeon, I was surprised that there
were very.
Few references in thescientific literature about Irish
sturgeon.
So I found this unusualbecause it's such an iconic species
that it generally.
(09:08):
Tends to draw media attentionif one is caught.
So I decided to go and trawl.
Through the Irish newspaperarchives back to.
1738, and I came up with 243records from Ireland.
(09:29):
So I was able to carry outquite a lot of detailed analysis
on that.
And it was very surprising.
The results, actually.
Sturgeon in general areregarded as critically endangered
species, not just in Ireland here.
But across the whole world.
There is only one spawningpopulation of European sturgeon left
(09:54):
in Europe, and that's in theRiver Garonne in Bay of.
Biscay, whereas previouslythey were known to.
Spawn in the Rhine and the Elbe.
But there is no evidence thatthey actually spawned in Irish waters,
or indeed.
In UK waters, which issurprising, because.
If they were spawning in theRhine, you would imagine that they
(10:18):
would have spawned here as well.
I came up with about 75% ofthe sturgeon records from Ireland
here were all found in coastalwaters, and about.
Half of those were found inthe Irish sea.
(10:40):
Only about 25% of the recordswere found in estuarine waters, and
very few.
Actually in fresh water.
So There is no evidence that they.
Actually spawned here, eventhough there was.
One exceptionally large femalethat was caught in the river.
(11:00):
Sure.
Back in the 1840s that wasfull of spawn.
And the guy who found it, he.
Actually remarked that therewas enough eggs in that female to
supply the whole.
Of that river system.
(11:22):
But she would have need to have.
Found a suitable mate.
And there weren't very many ofthem around at the time either.
Declan, tell me, are theyspawning in the freshwater?
Are they spawning in salt water?
Are they migrating?
What's their spawning behavior?
(11:44):
Most species of sturgeon areanadromous, that.
Is, they're like salmon.
They spawn in fresh water andthey migrate to the sea to feed.
There are some species thatoccur in.
China that spend all of theirlife in fresh water.
But I say the most of them arelike a salmon.
(12:08):
They spawn in freshwater andgo to.
Feed in the sea.
Now, even though there is nodirect evidence that they spawned
in Irish rivers, sturgeon is ahighly migratory species.
So the fish that we are.
Well, let's say the fish thatwe used to see in the Irish Sea.
(12:31):
Were basically probably comingfrom the Goron.
And migrating northwards onthe feeding migration.
And I think they wereattracted to.
The Irish Sea because theylike shallow, sandy areas.
There was quite a lot of records.
From Dundalk Bay, where someof their.
Favorite food occurs, which is cockles.
(12:54):
Yeah.
And also Dublin Bay.
This is going back to the 1800s.
Again, I found some referencesrecently actually to sturgeon.
Well, what, they weren'tregarded as sturgeon, they were called.
(13:14):
They thought there were salmonactually in the river in Limerick.
The Shannon one was four and ahalf meters long, but it obviously
wasn't the salmon.
Subsequently there was a lotmore records recorded from the River
(13:34):
Shannon, but not upstream of Limerick.
So again, there's no evidence,as you would imagine, that they.
If they were caught furtherupstream, they would have made news.
So the earliest records I'veseen there.
Is from the 12th century andthey were mentioned in the Annals
(13:55):
of inischvalen.
It was 11:15.
There's also a mural inClonmacnoise showing a sturgeon.
But again, there's no evidencethat they actually were captured
there.
It's probably they came fromdown the stream in Limerick.
(14:19):
So it's possible that whilesturgeon may have been exploring
the estuaries that they.
Didn'T go up any further, theywere just feeding.
Now, because it's regarded asa critically.
Endangered species, it's a panEuropean species, if you like, even
(14:39):
though it's not, if you likedoesn't spawn here.
And some people might notregard it.
As native, but there's manyspecies of fish that occur in European
waters that.
Don'T actually spawn here.
For example, bluefin tuna,they migrate up.
To Norway and they go back to.
The Mediterranean or across tothe western Atlantic to spawn.
(15:02):
And you also have like many cetacean.
Species that are protected inIrish waters.
Which don't breed here.
They, they just migrate hereas part.
Of their normal feeding migration.
And, and yet they regardedtechnically as native.
(15:25):
But basically the sturgeon isnative to northwest Europe.
It's not necessarily endemicto Ireland.
Is it that there, there is achance of seeing them again or is
in Ireland or is it like thepopulation is gone, gone and they
have no chance to migrate?
(15:45):
So because I thought thatthey, there was like a Irish population,
so called, and then they got,you know, killed, overfished, whatever
you want to call it, extinct.
Is that the case or is it westill have a chance of actually seeing
sturgeon in Irish waterspotentially migrating from somewhere.
(16:07):
As I say, there's one endemicpopulation left in the River Garonne.
Most of the sturgeonpopulations that frequented other
European rivers are basicallyextinct, mainly due to the construction
of barriers on the rivers,pollution, but primarily due to overexploitation
(16:31):
as well.
Well, up until in 1977, there was.
About 38,000 tons of sturgeon.
And that's all species ofsturgeon, wild.
Sturgeon that werecommercially harvested.
But by 2011 that had dropped400 tons.
And in the intervening yearssturgeon farming.
(16:54):
Has taken off and there's at least.
50,000 tons of sturgeon farmed worldwide.
Now the French fisheriesauthorities have been attempting
to breed the sturgeon in theRiver Garonne and release juveniles.
(17:16):
And they were doing that upuntil about 2007.
And they were expecting, ifsuccessful, that.
The adults would be returninglast year.
Or from last year becausethey're a.
Very slow growing fish.
They don't mature untilthey're 15 or.
16 years at least.
(17:39):
So it's a very long term.
Project.
To try and reintroduce sturgeon.
Successfully, it seems anyway.
So hopefully if the Garonneproject is successful, we will begin
to see more sturgeon in Irishwaters and further northward.
(18:04):
It would be nice to sort of.
Think that we could farmsturgeon here for restocking, but
it's hard to kind.
Of argue the case when they were.
Never regarded or is noevidence that.
They were actually spawning here.
But we do have some of thelargest and cleanest rivers in Europe
(18:28):
in.
Ireland so maybe it couldbecome a donor population here.
Now, there's been lots ofissues as well.
Sturgeon can easily hybridizethe species, and farming of sturgeon
(18:50):
has kind of crossbred.
Various species, basicallybecause they give better growth rates.
Okay.
And a lot of the smaller sturgeon.
End up in the pet trade.
When you put a sturgeon in your.
Fish tank and a year later, it.
Might have gone in at 5 or.
(19:10):
6 grams, and it's a kilo, so.
They quickly outgrow their.
Fish tank, aquarium, and Isuppose people don't want to.
Kill the fish, so they mayrelease it into the wild.
(19:31):
And this can create lots ofproblems if you're trying to introduce
or rehabilitate nativesturgeon populations.
Declan, I got to ask you aboutthe sturgeon farming.
We know what environmentalproblems are with salmon farming,
(19:52):
with sea lice and waste andall that.
Are there similar problems,environmental problems with sturgeon
farming, or is it, like, alittle bit cleaner endeavor?
Well, I'd be a little bitbiased myself in answering that question
because I'm.
A salmon farmer myself andhave been.
For most of my life.
(20:15):
But the sturgeon.
The farming of sturgeon occursin freshwater, so there's much greater
opportunity to control theconditions within freshwater farms.
Okay, so let's.
I haven't heard of anybodycomplaining about them.
(20:36):
There aren't.
It may seem like a lot ofsturgeon, say 50,000 tons, but it's
quite small compared to, say,over a million tons of farm salmon
worldwide.
So you need to kind of balancewhat the environmental impact is
and the possible extinction ofa species.
(21:00):
Yeah.
So you reckon that thesturgeon farming plays a role as
a reservoir of genes, so tosay, for sturgeon and possible reintroductions
to.
To the wild.
So unlike the salmon farming,the sturgeon farming could be regarded
as a contributor toconservation, Is that right?
(21:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
Sturgeon was mainly harvestedfor caviar, which, if you go into
the airport now, duty free,you pay up to €10,000.
Per kilo for caviar.
So because of the high priceof caviar, there's a lot of pressure
(21:48):
still on wild stocks,obviously due to poaching.
So if farm sturgeon canreplace that.
Demand, it will hopefullyreduce the level.
Of illegal fishing of wildsturgeon in the future.
(22:08):
That's what I would hope, anyway.
How does the.
So you were talking about thepopulation of sturgeon in Europe.
In the.
In the European sturgeon.
I know that there is, like, anactive recreational fishery of sturgeon
in Canada.
In America, this is differentspecies of sturgeon completely.
(22:29):
Do you know how they're doing there?
Is that population in a littlebit better condition than in Europe?
White sturgeon is one of the biggest.
Ones that actually occurs inthe Pacific.
Rivers and it is very popularwith anglers.
Again, a lot of the large rivers.
On the Pacific side of North America.
(22:55):
Have been highly developed forhydroelectric dams.
And this has obviously causedissues further upstream spawning
sturgeon there.
Sturgeon have been introducedinto a lot of putt and take fisheries
in the uk.
(23:15):
Again, it's not really anatural environment for them.
So.
I used to be an angler myself,so I wouldn't be really attracted
to fishing for sturgeon in a pond.
I was fishing for them in apond in Poland for when I was starting
with angling.
So that I was starting inthose, like you said, little ponds
(23:37):
and they were like thoselittle sturgeons.
They call it sturgeon.
I think they're sterlet.
Yes.
But you know, back then it waslike, oh, you caught a sturgeon and
you know, and I was looking atthe, at the magazines, angling magazines
from Canada, and see thismassive fish, like.
No, this doesn't look like this.
Yeah, well, I.
(23:58):
Some anglers have caughtsturgeon in the.
River Severn, which isbasically across the pond here from
me.
But most of them were found tobe hybrids, so they were obviously
escapees or fish that had beenreleased by.
(24:19):
From aquaria, I would imagine.
You know, there was oneactually, a.
Small sturgeon, about 1.3kilos that was caught in Locnay in
2016.
So I haven't heard of theresults yet as to whether it was
(24:40):
a hybrid or a real European sturgeon.
If it was to get up to LochNey, it would have to have.
Passed up to the River Bandand all the fish passes on that system.
So I kind of wondering maybeif it was all.
It might have been dumped inLoch Ney from a tank, you know, so.
(25:06):
But I haven't heard the fullstory yet.
When was the last sturgeoncaught in Ireland?
What is like a last validatedor the one that you would consider
being a wild, like 100% wild sturgeon.
What year was it, do you know?
That was 1987.
Oh, yeah, May 1987.
(25:28):
There was Sturgeon.
It's about 10 kilo weight.
He was cut off to Kish Lighthouse.
Off Dublin Bay and it was soldto bishops, you know, fish traders.
I think it was around £900 it made.
(25:49):
Wow.
So.
And they in turn sold it on.
To White's on the Green, whichis an upmarket restaurant in Dublin
and that was served up to theunsuspecting last consumers of the
(26:09):
last sturgeon in Ireland.
How did you get interested?
How did you get, you know,like there is a little bit of a,
you know, we really didn'tstart with introduction about yourself,
so you might use thatopportunity to introduce yourself
a little bit now.
But how did you get interestedin those fish?
(26:33):
Because clearly you've seenthe decline and how they're reports
are being less and less ofsightings and.
Right, so you kind of like awitness the demise of sturgeon in
Ireland.
Well, as I said, I was just.
Curious why there was so fewrecords in the scientific literature.
(26:57):
And as a fish biologist I wasalways interested in sturgeon and
reading what.
Sort of research was going onelsewhere in Europe.
I was particularly interestedin the archaeological.
Side of it because at the endof the last ice age, the Atlantic
(27:20):
sturgeon, which is effectivelynative to Labrador, Canada.
It turned up in the Baltic.
And natural spawningpopulations in Baltic rivers including
Lake Ladoga, they seem to displace.
(27:43):
The European sturgeon whenthey arrived.
And this was the end of thelast ice age.
So things were quite cold then.
And of course Canada is quitecold in that latitude.
So it was a species that wasable to push out the European sturgeon.
(28:03):
But eventually as thingswarmed up, the climate warmed up.
It appears that the Europeansturgeon started migrating further
north and hybridized with theAtlantic sturgeon.
And these hybrids migratedfurther southwards into Biscay.
(28:29):
Because they have foundarchaeological remains.
Of sturgeon in variousNeolithic sites and they were able
to identify from the scales ordisguises whether or not they were
European or Atlantic or hybrids.
(28:53):
So there were a number of sturgeon.
In the Natural History Museumin Dublin here that were caught.
One was caught in the Liffey in.
The pool beg salmon fishery inthe Liffey back in the 1840s and
another.
One in the River Boyne justfurther north.
(29:16):
And there was a lady called Hannah.
From the University of Warsawactually who.
Took samples from both ofthese sturgeon for DNA analysis.
And she discovered fragmentsof the Atlantic sturgeon, that's
(29:41):
Assupinser Oxyrhynchus, in thelargest one from the River Leffey,
whereas the river, the onefrom the River Boyne was Capensur
stereo, the European sturgeon.
So it wasn't 100% conclusivebecause the DNA was quite degraded.
(30:04):
But there was some evidence of the.
Atlantic sturgeon in that specimen.
So I took some close upphotographs of the Scutes and I sent
them to the archaeologistsdown in France.
(30:27):
And in Spain, who were experts basically.
In identifying which specieswas which, based on the scutes.
And they were of the opinion that.
It was European sturgeon, butit could also have been a hybrid.
(30:50):
So my interest, I suppose waspurely academic.
It's an iconic species.
It's actually called brodawnfjarna in Irish.
Whereas salmon is called brodon.
And.
(31:12):
The salmon has always been kind.
Of revered in Ireland.
Whereas I think that thesturgeon, a.
Good example perhaps of aniconic European species, not just
eu, but it's also found in theBlack Sea in the Mediterranean.
So I think it would be a goodspecies, like a symbol of European
(31:38):
unity and perhaps an evenbigger EU in the future as well,
where this species has occurred.
So I think, you know, when Iwas a kid, we've had so many changes
(31:59):
in currency.
Salmon always featured on thecoinage, the two shilling coin in
Ireland.
So maybe there's a case of putting.
Sturging on our coinage andmaybe our EU coinage.
Oh, that would be great.
I think that would be a great idea.
(32:19):
Declan, tell me, like when thesturgeon were at the time where the
sightings or catching sturgeonwas still, you know, going on in
Ireland, were there anyattempts to save the species, any
attempts at conservation orwas it just not a thing at the time
(32:41):
and nobody was payingattention that there's less and.
Less of them in the waters.
There doesn't appear to havebeen any.
Attempts to save sturgeonduring the 19th century.
It was just we suddenly woke up.
In the 20th century andrealized that this species was almost
(33:02):
extinct.
So apart from the French andalso now the Germans as well, fisheries
research, they're the onlyprograms that are actively and practically
trying to reintroduce European sturgeon.
(33:25):
It's the same in the uk.
There is, I suppose theIndustrial Revolution there didn't
help.
And it's not just sturgeon.
It affected lots of differentspecies of fish.
It's lots of species arecoming and.
Going, becoming extinct and wedon't know about it.
(33:47):
This just happened to be onethat we do know about.
Yeah, that is the problem,that it's to some extent it is like,
what did we lost that we don'teven know that we lost it?
Declan, tell us a little bitabout the cultural and political
importance of a sturgeon.
(34:09):
In the article you sent me andthat we're going to link in the show
notes, there is a story aboutthe sturgeon being offered by one
person to another as apolitical gift and something like
that.
So they had a clearly hugecultural Meaning and importance in
Ireland.
Yes.
(34:30):
It was King Edward ii in the14th century.
He introduced an act wherebyall sturgeons were his if they were
caught.
So it does suggest that the species.
(34:50):
Was not so common even then.
Right.
But it was a royal fish.
It became a royal fish and ofsignificant political interest because
at that stage.
Ireland was part of the United Kingdom.
(35:13):
And King Edward II decreed,also became.
Part of Irish law, if youlike, at the time.
And over the years, sturgeonhas featured.
A lot in political terms inIreland as well as the UK, of course.
(35:34):
But there is a story from 1608when the High King of Donegal, in
his own peninsula, Cairo,Doherty, he was meeting the mayor
of Derry and the mayor ofDerry anyway, somehow insulted him
(36:00):
and he went back in a rage toInishon and he consulted with his
elders and his more peacefulelders suggested that.
They might.
He might give a gift in apeace offering, if you like, to the
(36:23):
mayor.
And it so happened that there was.
A sturgeon caught at the same time.
So he gave the sturgeon anyway to.
The mayor and everything wasokay for a while, but then he came
back.
And he killed the mayor.
And then the mayor.
(36:47):
The mayor's troops chased himback to.
In his show and killed him.
Yeah.
So it was.
So up until the formation of the.
Irish Free State, effectivelyall sturgeon that were caught in
(37:10):
Ireland were had to go to thereigning monarch in the UK and this
occurred quite frequentlyduring the 19th century where.
Sturgeon were.
A number of Irish sturgeonwere, let's.
Say, donated to QueenElizabeth, for example.
(37:36):
And also to various rulers in Ireland.
UK rulers, if you like, would be.
The Lord Lieutenants of Ireland.
So if they weren't able to get.
It over to the Queen, theywould feast on it in Dublin Castle.
So when the Irish Sarah Start Arryn.
(37:59):
Was established in 1922.
This, let's call.
It a tradition at this stage seemed.
To kind of persist in Irish politics.
I don't think they knew what to.
Do when a sturgeon was caught,but they.
(38:20):
Most of the sturgeon that were caught.
After 1922 were donated to thePresident of Ireland.
And he had shown to your calic.
And you had Eamon de Valera and.
Carol Odalik and Erskine Chillers.
Right up until you know, the 1970s.
These sturgeon were given tothe president because they thought
(38:45):
this is what should be donewith it.
Even Richard Mulcahy, who wasthe Lord.
Lieutenant of the new SerStodairn, he was presented with a
sturgeon.
There was another sturgeoncaught around the same time, actually.
And it was presented to theQueen in, sorry, the King in London.
(39:09):
It was caught in Irish waters, but.
It was caught by a UK trawler.
And it was landed intoSwansea, so they weren't going to
give it back to us.
Now, the interesting thingabout the sturgeon.
That were donated to the Irishpresidents over the years was that
(39:31):
in most.
Cases they gave them toecclesiastical institutions rather
than having dinner up in Orsand Uchteron.
But in hindsight, I wasthinking the.
Reason for that was that theecclesiastical institutions were
(39:52):
more powerful than the politicians.
Right.
So it would be veryinteresting to see.
What they would do if anothersturgeon was caught now.
But.
EU law now anyway dictates that.
(40:14):
The sturgeon has to bereleased alive.
So maybe that solves theproblems for the Irish government.
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Oh, that's a good one.
What do you think?
Like, why even, you know, thething is hard to understand for me
is, like, why nobody wastrying to protect the fish that was
(40:38):
so important and so valued.
The Royal fish, it was givenas a gift and surely people saw that
the population is decliningand yet no one done anything.
Like, I'm just wondering,like, why is it like just the mind
frame at the time was notthere, or like, what are your thoughts
(41:01):
on this?
Well, I can only think that ingeneral terms.
The fishery resources ofIreland were for generations not
considered to be important.
And it still is an ongoing debate.
When Ireland and joined the EUin 1973, the fishermen didn't do
(41:28):
very well out of it in termsof quota.
And it's an ongoing issue.
So I think that sturgeon,because they weren't so common and
they weren't spawning here,that really, they.
(41:51):
They didn't catch.
It's not a good word, I suppose.
Let's say they weren'tperceived, they weren't known to
be perhaps so critically endangered.
Do you think it would be agood idea to have a sturgeon reintroduction
(42:13):
project in Ireland?
Or do you think because theyprobably never spawn here, that it's
not a good idea?
Would you like to see that,that sort of a project?
You know, hypotheticallyspeaking, I understand that there's
like a literally zero chanceof this happening in the near future,
but there is a lot of talkabout reintroducing species right
(42:37):
now across the Europe andIreland and the uk.
Do you think it would be agood idea to try to reintroduce them
to Ireland?
Would you like to see thatproject or do you think it's not
a.
Good Idea, I wouldn't call it reintroduce.
I know that there's a lot ofinterest in rewilding of lots of
(42:59):
species.
In Europe, but I think even though.
The sturgeon, there's noevidence that spawned here, as I
say, it's a pan European species.
So I think that every Europeancountry has perhaps a responsibility
(43:21):
to ensure that the species survives.
And I think as part of that.
Program, maybe there's astrong case for Ireland to farm sturgeon,
for.
(43:42):
Rewilding, if you likerewilding the sea, not rewilding
the river as such.
But we have some really goodrivers here that would be suitable,
I think.
But again, that's a political question.
Unfortunately.
This is the unfortunate bitabout the than the nature conservation,
(44:07):
that it often gets politicizedand the arguments have nothing to
do with actual ecologicalaspect of it.
It's more of a who and why and where.
Yeah, well, if you take for example.
Wild boar, they were at onestage native to Ireland or appear
(44:27):
to have.
Been anyway, and they were allhunted to extinction, like the wolf
as well.
We even had brown bears hereand hyenas.
And.
So I suppose some people wouldn't.
Mind introducing wolves andbrown bears and wolves, dare I say
(44:53):
it.
But you know, I think whenthey were here, we weren't here.
A lot of cases and Ireland,it's changed so much.
I kind of leave that to the.
Politicians to decide, well, Idon't know, there's nothing going
(45:15):
to happen then.
You know, there is an argumentthat when the wolves still were around
in Ireland, there wereapparently more people in Ireland
than there is now.
They just didn't have thatmany goddamn cars at the time.
Yes, we had major immigration.
During the famine years whenwe had twice as many or three times
(45:38):
as many people living in Ireland.
But I think the last wolf was.
Shot in 1756, around that time.
So I don't think people were too.
Concerned about Waltz at that stage.
They just wanted to survive.
Just to switch gears a littlebit, tell me clearly over your career
(46:07):
as a fish biologist, as aperson who is into wildlife, you've
seen the decline of thenatural environment and species and
fish stocks and all that.
Can you give us, from theperspective of many decades of experience,
(46:28):
how what we see now comparesto how the seas and rivers and waters
in Ireland look like 30, 40,even more years ago?
How big is that decline?
Well, when I was, I suppose in.
My teens, and that's goingback over.
(46:51):
50 years now, there were majorenvironmental issues in Ireland,
mostly pollution caused bysewage and farming I remember actually
(47:11):
as a kid going up to Dublin and.
The pong of the Liffey wasincredibly bad.
But I think there's been ahuge improvement actually since the
1960s in Ireland in terms ofwater quality.
(47:33):
There's still obviously,issues, but there were.
Lots of reports of fish killsevery year across Ireland.
During the 70s, but thatdeclined substantially during the
1980s.
You still get occasionalkills, but I think that people in
(47:56):
general are much.
More attuned now to the environment.
I think that fish, if I justtake fish, because people don't see
them and they're not kind ofcuddly, they may not have been as
aware of what species we hadhere and what were maybe endangered.
(48:23):
We didn't know it becauseapart from.
Salmon and trout, everythingelse was kind.
Of considered to be almostinedible in Ireland, unlike in Poland,
where you eat everything.
So I think there's a greaterconsciousness there.
And one thing about fish isthat different kind of from land
(48:44):
animals, they're.
Not restricted by politicalboundaries or jurisdictions.
They move with the sea, they migrate.
They may naturally repopulate areas.
They're a little bit of an unknown.
I mean, if you look at the.
Number of land animals inIreland here, I don't know, it's
(49:08):
probably 30 or 40 species mammals.
That is.
We have almost 600 species offish that occur in Irish waters,
and that's increasing every year.
Now it is.
Even this week, there was anew species scientifically described
(49:32):
from Irish waters.
My interest over the years has been.
Recording all of these unusualspecies because.
Only about 20 of the 600 arecommercially exploited.
And they're the ones thatreceive all the scientific research.
(49:54):
Nobody knows very much aboutthe rest of them.
And they're the.
The kind of gaps that I'mtrying to fill.
And the sturgeon is one of those.
Oh, that's a very importantjob that you're doing.
And, you know, thank you for.
For doing that, Declan.
What, like, if you would givean advice to, you know, young people,
(50:17):
and maybe a little older thanyoung, but still young, what would
be your advice for them?
What should they do to ensurethe, you know, continuous improvement
of the state of theenvironment and fish and like, what.
What would be your advice forthem for the future generations?
(50:40):
Look outside the box.
That's.
That's short and to the point.
Yes, I think that, as I say.
There'S huge opportunitiesthere for the up and coming generation
of biologists and fishery.
Biologists in particular, toexpand the amount of research in
(51:03):
terms of species numbers.
As I say, we.
We know very little about mostof them.
So there is enough work there for.
Generations ahead.
And I think to continue tocreate awareness of what species
may be under threat andhopefully we may.
(51:27):
Be able to save them in time.
Maybe one day we'll see thesturgeon in Irish waters again.
I look forward to having ameal in whites on the green someday.
Declan, thank you very much.
I really appreciate your time.
It's been pleasure.
Thank you.
John,
To the episode then it was clearly.
(51:48):
Something that interests you.
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(52:12):
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