May 28, 2024 • 42 mins
Kristen Daukas and guest Dorien Morin-van Dam, get real about their experiences as parents of young adults transitioning out of the nest. The conversation pivots to the challenges Gen X parents and their Gen Z children face, ranging from economic pressures, the boomeranging trend of adult children returning home, and the significant impact of social media. They discuss the evolving expectations on wedding costs, college education's value, and the importance of trade careers. Highlighting their parenting strategies, they emphasize setting expectations on financial independence, teaching kids about fiscal responsibility, and encouraging them to engage in life experiences over material possessions. The dialogue also touches on the mental health concerns prevalent among Gen Z, attributing factors, and the need for parents to model desired behaviors and engage in meaningful conversations with their children. The episode closes with a call for parents to lead by example, showcasing the belief in instilling practical life skills and values from a young age.
About Dorien:
Dorien Morin-van Dam is a leading expert in organic social media and content marketing with over 13 years of experience. As a Certified Social Media Manager and Agile Marketer, she is well-versed in the latest techniques and best practices for driving engagement and results through organic social media. Dorien is an international speaker, and hosts her weekly livestream show and podcast, "Strategy Talks." on Facebook, LinkedIn and YouTube. You’ll recognize her on stage and online by her always-present orange glasses, a nod to her Dutch heritage.
Connect with Dorien
https://www.linkedin.com/in/moreinmedia/
https://www.youtube.com/@DorienMorinVanDam/podcasts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kristen Daukas (00:04):
Welcome to Conversations on the rocks. The
podcast where the drink isstrong and the stories are
stronger. I'm your host, KristenDaukas. And this isn't your
average chat fest. Here realpeople spill the tea alongside
their favorite drinks from thehilarious to the heart wrenching
each episode a wildcard. You'lllaugh, you may cry, but you'll
definitely learn something new.
So grab whatever whet yourwhistle and buckle up it's time
(00:26):
to dive into the raw, the realand the ridiculously human.
Let's get this chat partystarted. Hey, everybody, it's
Kristen Daukas And we're backwith another episode of
conversations on the rocks. Andtoday I'm with Dorian Morin Van
Damme one of my very old notshe's not old, but we've been
(00:46):
friends for a really long time.
And during you just introduceyourself a little bit and then
we're gonna dive into this topicbecause we got a lot to go over
and a 30 minute segment. So Haveat it, sir. Absolutely.
Dorien (01:04):
I was born and raised in the Netherlands emigrated at age
18 by myself, married young,married and American I've
emigrated from the Netherlandsand raise four children with
stay at home mom and at age 40started my business. That's
where I met Kristin about 13years ago, 1412 13 years ago.
And I am a runner, I have abouttwo dogs. My children are now
(01:30):
aged 27 to 19. So, you knowthey're young adults, not not
you know, teenagers anymore thatthat phase lasted forever. And I
like to Yeah, I know. So I'vemorphed from a social media
manager into a social mediastrategist and consultant so
(01:50):
that's what I do run my ownbusiness and work full time and
loving it. So
Kristen Daukas (01:56):
you and I both have young adult children and
all but one of yours and all ofmine have been have left the
nest we are I am an empty nesterand you are 75% of an empty
nester 55th. T. Did we haveanother boomerang.
Dorien (02:17):
I've had two boomerangs already now I have two at home,
when a young adult is at home,because of a disability, and
then one is at home. He's ateenager. He's a 19 year old,
but he goes to college. He's acommuter, right? So he basically
lives there, but he just sleepshere.
Kristen Daukas (02:38):
And that is Generation Z for those who may
not be in tune with all thegenerations and obviously
joining an AI our Gen X. Andit's interesting and a very
challenging and so once we wantto kind of dive into the
challenges not just that weface, but that they are facing,
(03:03):
particularly the differencesbecause you married young,
right? I married a little olderthan you but I was out on my own
by the time I was 20. And it Icame from that generation of
once you left the house, you'regone. There was no boomerang and
going on with the boomergeneration. And it was tough.
But it is I cannot say that it'snearly as tough for me, or it
(03:26):
was as tough for me as it is forour kids. And whether it's the
economics piece of I just didread something not too long ago.
I don't know if you saw the samestudy that something crazy high
like 65% of parents aresupporting in some capacity,
(03:46):
their adult children up to anover the age of 30. Whether that
looks like helping them out withrent, helping them out with
other bills, helping them outwith food, something. What has
been your experience with thetwo that are even you know, what
has been your experience withyour kids after they have left?
Dorien (04:04):
Yeah, so two of them boom ranked back one after
college when we moved from SouthCarolina to Vermont. So he
finished college right at thetime that we moved. So he
decided that he was going tocheck out Vermont and live with
us for seven months. He movedback right before COVID hit and
then the other one was incollege and boomerang during
(04:25):
college because she was kickedout of the dorm and had to come
live with us for a year beforeshe moved back to college and
then and eventually got married.
She got married young. But yeah,they they experiences that we've
told them if you need support,we see how hard it is. So they
know to ask for the things thatthey need. We carried our oldest
(04:46):
is 27 we carried him on ourhealth insurance so he we
couldn't anymore till he was 26and one of something that I want
to touch on right now that Ithink you were gonna bring up
anyway is that you know He got acollege education. But right now
he's working two labor intensivejobs. He's not really working in
what he studied. He's degree inbiology and chemistry. And he
(05:09):
doesn't want to work inside,decided that he wants to work
outside, he works on the beachworks at a horse farm, and
loving the work that he does.
But you know, that doesn'tnecessarily give you a lot of
stability and their seasonaljobs, both of them, but he's
(05:30):
happy. And the advice that wegave him, you know, 10 years
ago, and that we were expectedto give his go to college. And
he's said to us, if I were to doit again, I wouldn't go to
college. But then that's alsowhere all his friends have come
from. That's where he became anadult, he moved out at 18. He
(05:53):
told us afterwards, it was sofunny, we drove him to college,
and he didn't go into the dorm,he went to College of
Charleston, where there's ashortage of dorm rooms anyway,
so they allow freshmen to liveoff campus, even as freshmen.
And so he thought we were gonnagive him a lot of cash, even
though we said you're on yourown. We don't, we won't pay for
college, you have to figure itout. You saved during high
(06:16):
school, you got scholarships,you got to work in college, and
we can't help you. And he reallythought that we were going to
drop him off and give him acouple $1,000. And we didn't,
and so he had to figure it out.
I
Kristen Daukas (06:29):
think a lot of that, too. And it's I've got a
funny story for you. That justhappened to me last night
talking to because again, youand I are so similar in our
personalities, especially whenit comes to parenting, and it
others our other parent peers,literally have made our job very
(06:49):
difficult, in the sense of itmakes us tease us up to be kind
of the bad guy, right? And suchin last night, I got a text from
my oldest and she said, have youguys been saving for our
weddings? And I was like, no,no, we haven't. And she's like,
well, who's gonna pay for mywedding? And I'm like, I'm gonna
say that's probably you. I said,my parents didn't pay for my
(07:10):
they, you know, those are thetwo things too. They didn't pay
for my college. They didn't Ididn't go to college. Right? I
you know, I don't have a degree.
And they didn't pay for it. Theypaid for a little bit of my
wedding. Right. But thatexpectation from Gen Z is that
we're just throwing out moneyright and left. And I'm like, I
don't know it sometimes with herespecially. I look at her and I
(07:31):
go have you not lived with usfor 26 years? Like at which
point of you're growing up? Didyou ever see us with you know
wads of cash that we were justthrown throwing to you guys like
we can help you when we can.
It's kind of going back to howexpensive it is. And you know,
with her, I made the commitmentto her just to help her get in a
(07:54):
little bit better of an area inWashington DC. I said I will
commit to giving you $200 amonth. And it's sad. It's not a
ton. But you know, it'ssomething that you can count on.
And she's like, I don't wantyour money as it but if I put it
in my budget, then I know right?
And so that helped her I mean,even just 200 bucks a month can
help get them to a better place.
(08:15):
Right. But yeah, I was like, No,we have not saved for your
wedding. We are not paying foryour wedding. I said I would say
so let's go ahead and hopefullyyou can set your expectations
now, if and when you decide tofinally get married. But you
know, looking and I rememberwhen she turned it was something
about her class. It was that herclass of 2017 all of the kids in
(08:38):
that class were over indulged,like when they turned 16 There
were joined there were morebrand new than I'm not talking
just cars. I'm talking likebeamers Porsches, Jeep
Wranglers, I mean, you name it,it was sitting in that parking
lot in the with the keys in thehands of 16 year old kids.
Dorien (08:59):
Do you do you think it's because we both lived in the
south at that my son graduated2017 as well. And you know, we
love the South Carolina knowyou're in North Carolina. I
don't know if it was because ofwhere we lived. I do think
there's a different lifestylethere and expectations. And then
(09:19):
the that's a funny story aboutYour daughter asking or when our
daughter got married, she had awedding, just the two of them,
plus the two sets of parents.
But our kids know our story. Myhusband and I got married at the
bus stop. So we paid a justiceof the peace $175 to show up. We
rented two limousines and wedrove around with our friends.
We weren't old enough to drinkso we couldn't go to a bar or
(09:41):
anything. We were both under 21When we got married, and we
didn't go on a honeymoon. Ithink my husband sister got us a
night at a hotel. And that's allwe spent and then say about 10
years later we were invited tobe in a wedding. We spent more
on somebody else's wedding beingThe bridesmaid and the best man
then we did on our own wedding.
(10:03):
And so our kids have known thatstory. And they know, it's not
about the wedding, right? It'sabout the marriage. And I think
that, you know, that philosophyhas, you know, trickled through
to everything that us as parentsthat we've tried to teach our
children, you know, those thingsfade when my son went to
(10:23):
college, and that same truck,When we drive in him, when he's
thinking, we're going to handhand him a bunch of cash. I also
asked him, I said, you're now anadult, you're going out on your
own, what are your best memoriesof childhood. And he said, our
four month trip to Brazil, orfour months living in the
Netherlands, because they wentto school with their cousins,
driving up to Westfield,Massachusetts, and seeing snow,
(10:46):
it was all about experiences, hedidn't rear end birthday
parties, we always hadincredible birthday party
experiences, nothing, that Ihired somebody for $1,000 to
come in and entertain the kids.
We did, you know, survivor gamesand, you know, Olympics on the
beach. And he said it was theexperiences that he remembered
not the things that he got. Soif you're listening, as a
(11:08):
parent, that's what your kidswill remember, it's about how it
made them feel.
Kristen Daukas (11:15):
And that is, and that's something I've tried to
pass on to my kids too, as faras, you know, to pull away from
the monetary piece of it oractually to, especially when it
comes to travel. And for somereason, and I don't know why
keep throwing my oldest, it'snot a throwing her under the
bus. But it seems like I havemore examples there. But for her
(11:35):
21st birthday, she wanted to goto California with her friends.
But she was worried about howmuch it was because California
is not cheap, right? And she wasworried about spending the
money. I said, you can alwaysmake more money, you can always
replace your money, you can'treplace the experience. Right?
So I've always tried to be veryexperienced, driven with them.
And you know, same thing, youknow, as far as did I did each
(11:57):
of them have a brand new car.
Absolutely not. But we did ourdamnedest to, you know, have
really great experiences withthem, whether it was a cruise or
whether you know, big thingslike that. That's I would just
rather spend my money onsomething. And I have been
trying for the past five yearsto get rid of Christmas. And I
think this year is going to bethe year because we're taking
that cruise degrees. And it'sI'm like, I'd rather take
(12:17):
whatever my unlike tell me whatyou got last year. Tell me what
you got for Christmas, like notyou. But to them. Tell me tell
me all the things you they can'ttell you, right? However, if you
do a trip, they'll be like, oh,yeah, remember that time we did
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
How did you work with your kids?
To be good financial stewards tomake them fiscally? How did you
(12:39):
train them fiscally?
Dorien (12:43):
Okay, so my oldest was born in 1996. So it was he's
right on the cusp of millennialGen Z, I think I think that's
right on that edge. So when hewent all my kids turned 13, I
got him a bank account under mybank account. So they got a
debit card. And so that was oneof the things I did. So they
(13:05):
could see how much all theirmoney had to go through it. If
they made money from babysittingor whatever had to go in there
first, and then you can use it.
So I didn't want them to usecash. I want them to see it on
there. So it was registered. Andthen so that was one of the
things I did with each one ofthem. The other thing I did is I
paid my children forbabysitting, especially my
oldest two for babysitting theyounger ones, I was able to
start a job and start a businessbecause they were able to
(13:29):
babysit and help me with that.
But I also made them pay forthings like their phone. So my
son would babysit his youngersiblings, I would give him $5 an
hour. So maybe I was on the jobfor four hours. I was
merchandising. And I wouldliterally pay him every day.
Right? It's payday. Every day ispayday, you just did this,
here's your money.
Kristen Daukas (13:49):
I'll talk I talked about talking about
setting a standard that'sunrealistic in the real world.
Dorien (13:54):
Right. But as a 13 year old, leaving him alone making
lunch for his siblings, it was aso then I would give him the
cash. And he would go to hisroom. And he knew he had to put
it like through the through thethrough the bank. But he would
be sitting in his room. Andsometimes he'd say, Okay, I'm
gonna spend this on my phone,like on minutes on my phone, or
(14:16):
sometimes he'd be like, Oh, Ithink I'm gonna go to the mall
with my friends and buy a newhat or, you know, he would think
about what he would spend hismoney on. And so sometimes he
would hand me the money back andsaid, I really don't feel like
putting it through the bank. CanI just use it for game state
game, you know, play on thecomputer, but it was that, you
(14:36):
know, I get money, I can spendmoney kind of thing. And then so
he was about 13 or 14 when hegot his first phone and that was
you know, the there was thetexting was, you know, the AABB
you know, kind of texting thing.
Our second son didn't have aphone till he was 16 he even
though he got a job at 16 Ithink that's when he got his
phone or daughter. I'm thinkingshe was 15 or so. Oh, my
(14:58):
youngest one. Now he's eightyears younger than the oldest.
So that's really the nextgeneration. All his friends had
phones in fifth grade. So herehe is, and in seventh grade, and
he didn't have a phone. So Isaid, you have to have a job
because here's the thing,parents, you can hand your child
a phone, but you're stuck payingthe bill. So even if they get a
phone for Christmas, you have arecurring bill. That's the part
(15:20):
that explain to my kids, I canbuy a phone for Christmas, how
are you going to pay for thebill and they look at me and
like there's a $30 at that pointBill recurring every month. So I
told them, You have to have ajob in order to pay that bill. I
can give you the phone all youwant, but there's gonna be
nothing that you can do with itunless you can pay the bill. So
he was 13 or going on 13. Hereally wanted to foam. And you
(15:42):
know who's gonna hire a 13 yearold? Well, he's a soccer player.
So he got certified. They wereshort on soccer refs, he got
certified at age 12. They, theythey're like, Okay, you're
almost 13 You can do that. Andhe started reffing, little kid
league games, soccer games, youget $20 A game. He was 13 years
old. He did tournaments,sometimes tournaments, he would
(16:02):
do like six games a day in thehazzan in Myrtle Beach, South
Carolina. But he would make bankand so he and then he would be
like, can I spend it? I'm like,your bill is coming up $30 a
month, you got to have themoney, otherwise, your phone's
not gonna work. So let's putsome of the money towards your
phone bill for the next threemonths and then see what you
have left, right. But yeah, hethat's how they learned. But he
(16:23):
was the youngest. He was 13. Andhe really wanted that phone. And
he was, I think the last one inthe carpool that got his phone,
but he ended up paying for it.
Kristen Daukas (16:32):
I know. Also, a lot of parents in our
generation, it was a nonnegotiable about going to
college. And in this house, itwas I didn't force the issue.
Because you and I both areentrepreneurs. And that's
something I've tried to get allof my girls to do is to find
(16:54):
something. So find somethingthat can be a side hustle for
you, right? And it could turninto something that's more
permanent. But I was not. Iremember when one of Kinsey's
friends made the declarationthat he was going to H back
school. Right. And I was like,that's amazing. That's
incredible. You know, becauseyou and I both worked with a
(17:14):
certain particular client that,you know, started with a truck
with a van and is amultimillionaire now. Right. And
I don't think he ever went tocollege. And it's not that I'm
against college, but the cost ofcollege at this point, it just
doesn't make sense. I just sawyesterday or the day before
where Campbell University, Ibelieve, is in order to go
(17:37):
there. Their tuition, roomboard, books in and out the door
one year $100,000. I
Dorien (17:47):
saw something that that's the that's, that's now
it's now past. Yeah,
Kristen Daukas (17:52):
so raise that is insane. And, you know, you and I
sit in enough Facebook job, youknow, marketing groups, were the
people that are in marketingthat are saying like, Oh, you
know, I mean, they're going onhundreds of interviews. So the
job market is not supporting it.
It just in our industry alone,it is definitely not the salary,
(18:12):
that it's it the sound, as weall know, we are all living it.
salaries have not kept pace withthe cost of living. And I it is
hard for me to justify tellingsomeone go ahead and get
yourself $250,000 in debt, for adegree and good luck, getting a
salary, maybe around 50 grand,these kids are going to
(18:38):
absolutely be drowning in debt,the rest of their lives, we are
setting these kids up forfailure, and a very bad
financial demise by insistingthat they all go to college. And
instead we need to be applaudingthe these kids that want to go
to trade school. You know what'sgreat about trade school, you
know, what's great about being aplumber, or an H back or an
(19:00):
electrician. When your shift isdone, you're done. You go home,
you have a nice burger and frieswith your family or whatever it
is that you do when you get offyou go for a run whatever you're
done. The stress on those jobsis just nothing compared to the
stress of the court. It's
Dorien (19:25):
so so so let me say that it I also don't have a college
degree. Like you didn't go tocollege. Remember I got married
young, my husband was still incollege and he was getting an
undergrad degree. And then bythe time we started having kids,
he got his master's so supportedhim through two degrees. And so
the expectation on his end wasyes, you go to college, but
(19:48):
we're not paying for it. Whichis kind of not the best way to
do that. Now we were lucky inSouth Carolina is one of maybe
two three states. We where theygive scholarships, gate state
scholarships based on merit, noton income, which was very
fortunate for my oldestchildren, they all got the
(20:10):
highest level scholarship fromthe state, they qualify because
they were in the top 6% or 5% oftheir class in the high school
that they were in. So mydaughter got additional
scholarships. So she basicallyhad a free ride, including cost
of living. My son got a freeride for the school part and the
books part, but he had to payhis own cost of living. That's
(20:31):
why I had to work and pay hisown rent and everything. So that
was lucky. My youngest now we'rein Vermont. That's a whole
different ballgame. We aresupporting him by allowing him
to live at home for four years,right. So he doesn't have the
cost of living to pay forbecause the other kids had left
by then. But he has to pay forhis own college. So it's about
(20:55):
five 6000 This semester, and hehas to come up with that money.
Now he saved money. He took alittle loan, you know, he pays
for there's not a whole lot ofbooks at these, what he's
studying. So there's a lot ofonline stuff. He we did have to
purchase a new car because he'sa commuter. And his car broke
down. So we purchased a carthat's in our name, obviously
our car, but he hasn't put hisown gas in it. And so he had a
(21:18):
chance to potentially be an RAand live on campus. But he's
like, Yeah, but then I have tobuy the food package. And that's
another 2000 a semester. Andhe's like, if I live at home,
yeah, I have a commute. But youknow, all that is free. So he's
doing the math on all of that.
And he found a great food hack.
All of his friends. It's a verysmall college, all of his
(21:40):
friends have the, what do youcall the food package? What do
you call that meal plan, thedorm meal plan, meal plan, golf
food package, it's the samething, meal plan, they all have
a meal plan and they all get Ithink 20 or 30 guest passes. So
he is the beneficiary of everysingle one of their guests
passes. So because otherwise hewould have to pay himself so
(22:01):
he's being frugal with his moneybecause it's his money if it was
my money, and I would be buyingexactly the plan. That's the
difference. Right? So yeah, hedoes live at home. I do his
laundry. But wait, wait, doeshis own cooking, do his laundry,
do his laundry, I do hislaundry? Yep, he's not he has a
45 minute commute each way.
Kristen Daukas (22:22):
You're doing it to make his life easier.
Dorien (22:24):
I'm doing it to make his life easier. He does his own
cooking because I'm vegan and heeats steak. So he does his own
cooking. He does his ownbedding. Like what I say is I do
his laundry, but he has to striphis own bed and he has to make
his own bed I put in a laundrymachine. So I'm helping him that
way.
Unknown (22:43):
Here hear what actual AI generated voices are saying
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(23:04):
your leg broken by a loan sharkif
AI generated voices are sayingthat about the Wheelers gone
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Kristen Daukas (23:13):
Again, I'm gonna throw out the disclaimer, I am
not mom of the year. I am notthe world's greatest parent in
the world. My entire objectivewith my parenting career was to
produce functioning young adultsinto the world right. However,
something I don't know if yousee it with your kids friends,
but something that I saw withthe girls friends is that these
kids have no street smarts. Theyhave very little common sense.
(23:38):
And listening to you talk aboutyour son with his you know,
going through therationalization of you know if I
do this than that, and this thanthat, that's making him very
street smart. That's That'scommon sense. And so many the
you know, there's I love Gen Zand there's so many great things
about them that there arecertain things about them that
make me flippin crazy. And thefact that the lack of street
(24:01):
smarts and common sense is oneof them. And the lack of sense
of urgency is another one. Hmm,maybe it's just because I'm
like, you know, little Tasmaniandevil and I'm, you know, just
like, Go Go, go, go go go allthe time. But like the like,
sometimes the sense of the lackof sense of urgency makes me
crazy. But by making our kids dothings like their own laundry,
(24:26):
their own cooking, I might havebought the car, but you have to
pay extra like I think for mygirls, I said you have to pay me
150 bucks a month. Right? Andthat was partially for the car,
the maintenance and theinsurance, right? I'm like, I
can't offset this entire thing.
I'm not going to offset this.
Because when you get out thereinto the world and you are own
(24:47):
do you buy your own car, you'regoing to have these hard costs
as well. You may as well getused to understanding that if I
have a car I'm going to havethis this and this. If I have a
phone I'm going to have thisthis and this. If I have a
credit card I'm going to havehave this, this and this. And so
in some of their friends,clueless 100% Clueless.
Dorien (25:08):
Yeah, I saw that a lot.
I drove a lot of carpool. Andyou know, if you have young
children, you're listening toconversations on the rocks,
drive carpool, you get all thesecrets you get all the time
they spill all the tea. Butyeah, I was in the carpool with
a 13 year old too. That was theconversation. She got a phone
for her birthday. And she wasall excited. And I say, so you
got the phone for your birthday.
(25:30):
And she told us it was it thiswas you know, long time ago, but
it was a lot of money. And, youknow, I'm like, who's gonna pay
for the phone? She goes, Well, Igot it. I'm like, No, there's
gonna be a bill who's gonna payfor it. And she just didn't
understand and you're not doingyou can service if you don't
explain these things, thatthere's a bill that goes with
that. And there's a bill forinsurance insurance goes up, I
(25:52):
can say that my youngest son hadhis driver's license for four
days and got his first ticket,his first speeding ticket, this
person only speeding ticket, butyou know, the insurance was
gonna go up, and we made him paythe difference. Because we had
said again, you need your carfor school. He was, you know,
driving 45 minutes to the highschool at that point. Because
we're live pretty remote. Socollege is 45 minutes, but high
(26:15):
school was also 45 minutes. Andhe said, if you get another
ticket and you can't drive,you're taking the bus right?
Going back on the bus.
Kristen Daukas (26:22):
Can I can I can say something. Yeah, you're nice
because the first speedingticket that the oldest got, I
wasn't taking the insurance saidI told her said you got to pay
$300 for an attorney to get ittaken care of. Oh,
Dorien (26:33):
no, he ended up paying the difference of the insurance
of the insurance. So he had topay the difference. Yeah, it was
like, I don't know. We weren'tbeing nice. No, no, we weren't
being nice. He had to pay that.
So I think that our kids haverealized pretty early on we're
you know, that's how we do it.
But when we see our kidsstruggle, Lea say say it over
(26:55):
and over. If you need somethingyou need to open your mouth.
When I go visit my children. Theweekends on me, I fly over to to
live in South Carolina. I takethem to dinner, I buy them
groceries, I went for Christmas,my daughter didn't have a
Christmas tree. I went two weeksbefore Christmas. I'm like,
let's go to Home Depot, we got aChristmas tree because it was a
first house. We got everythinggot the lights, like if I see
(27:17):
something and I'm there. I'mbuying it. I can. Right. And
that's a good it
Kristen Daukas (27:21):
is. And those are soft costs. I call it the I
call those are soft costs. Andhere's a funny question. So when
you take your kids groceryshopping, when you go visit
them, see my kids are smart.
They are good shoppers like Itaught my kids early on to go
shopping for clothes at placeslike plato's closet, which is
confinement, if we do the samething, yes, do same thing. And
they they know that store brandis the same as blah, blah, blah,
(27:43):
but I swear to you, every time Itake them shopping, all of a
sudden, there's no such thing asgeneric. And I'm like, do you
buy them? Do you? Do you buymajor brands when on your money?
Or I don't say anything. I justthink it's funny. It's always an
observation. We have probablyabout 710 minutes left on this,
I want to touch on somethingelse about this generation. And
(28:05):
I particularly noticed it withmy middle. And so the 2019 class
of 2019 is the emotional andmental issues. There are split,
like I said, I mean, the oldestshe had it and the youngest.
They had it but for some reasonagain, it seemed like that
(28:25):
middle that middle class at2019. All of these kids had
anxiety, they had depression,they had some kind of
neurological something. What'syour experience with that?
Dorien (28:39):
100%? Same, I've got one class of 2018. And same? Yeah.
Kristen Daukas (28:46):
Do you think oh, I the social media? Do you think
it's the the peer pressure? Doyou think what it is? Or is it
because they didn't put that wehad it? But it wasn't
necessarily obviously, you know,back in the 60s and 70s You
didn't talk about things likethat. That's one of the things
that I do love about thisgeneration too, is they will
talk to you. They have they haveno shame in talking about things
(29:09):
of that nature. They're veryfluid.
Dorien (29:11):
I think they're the first they're not the generation
that grew up with it. Theyweren't two years old and
holding iPads right so they werestill there's a generation that
still remembers doing hopscotchoutside my children do did do
that. They you know, the firstcomputer they had or play
computers, probably they werelike eight nine, you know, we
had a Playstation and you know,then we had, you know, I don't
(29:35):
even know all the systems butthey really didn't get a phone
to laters on social media justcame into play after that. I
also told them you have to be 13Anyway, but I think they didn't
know how to deal with it. We asparents, we didn't grow up with
it. So the parents of thatgeneration weren't educated on
social media on like, kids go toschool to get sex ed you're
(29:57):
supposed to do this at homeparents but you know a lot of
kids learn Learn everything fromschool again, in the carpool,
you'll learn all kinds of stuffabout that, that they had sex ed
and what they learned and whatthe boys learned versus the
girls and what the boys didn'tlisten to, versus the girls,
which is also very interesting.
But there was no, there's beenno social media education, not
for their parents, the parentsdidn't know how to guide the
(30:18):
children. And then which
Kristen Daukas (30:21):
I did that for years. Coaching parents
Dorien (30:24):
is that you taught that Yeah, and that exact reason,
right. And so, I mean, one ofthe things we ran into was, my
daughter didn't want to be inpictures as well, or
selfconscious. And we lived inMyrtle Beach. So there was a lot
of pictures of half naked girlsbecause you're in your bathing
suit, and she would go to aparty, and she would say, I
don't want to be in the picture.
And they're like, Oh, it's okay.
(30:44):
We won't post that. She wouldn'teven leave the premises, and I
would be on Instagram. And Iwould ask her, do you want me to
ask, you know, ask your friendto take it down. friend wouldn't
take it down. If I go to theparent. Parents like it's her
phone, right? It's her thing.
And we don't do that anymore. Ithink now we're educated to say,
you know, you need to haveconsent. People know about
(31:05):
consent about, you know, youdon't post post pictures that
you don't have permission. Butthat was just it was also new.
Yeah, we didn't know my, my sonin fifth grade, was that first
generation of elementary school,they all got iPads. It was like
the end, they go to school, likemiddle of August. And I walk
into the library at the end ofthe day. And the librarian, if I
(31:26):
could see like, her hair wasstanding up. And she was like,
first day school. And she'slike, Oh, I said, what happened?
She goes, the fifth gradersfigured out that there's a
camera on the iPad, oh, my God.
And they didn't count for it.
Because they didn't know whatkids would do. What do kids do
in fifth grade with cameras onthe iPad, right? can only
imagine what happened that firstday. It was horrible. It's just
(31:49):
so like, she's putting tape overall of the cameras. And then
they had to make up a policy. SoI think it's that generation of
parents and teachers who didn'tknow how to guide these kids.
And they made up the rules afterall the things went, right.
Yeah, I really think that's whathappened. Everything went wrong
was react got anxiety, they wereit was reactive. That's a good
Kristen Daukas (32:13):
way to say elective, right. But it could
not have been proactive becausethey didn't know what they were
dealing with. Right. And Iremember when I would do these
courses for parents and I wouldgo they would bring me into the
schools. Right? And how many,especially again, 2017 oldest
kid, how many of their parents,the parents, other parents were
like, Oh, my kids would never dothat. I'm like, yeah, they are
(32:35):
because I see them. I see theirfenced. Yes, I know, don't don't
tell me your kids aren't, I'mnot gonna rat your kid out. But
yeah, they are there. And youknow, so many parents would just
bear in adults, let's just sayadults were burying their heads
in the ground over the socialmedia piece of it. And that's
when the damage happened. Yeah,
Dorien (32:58):
I agree. I think that's really the that's really the
gist of it. And then the youngergeneration, I think, they, by
that time, I was more fluent insocial media, obviously. And I
knew where to set theboundaries. And I knew to say
this is acceptable. This is notacceptable. But the interesting
(33:18):
part is, I don't know how yourkids are, but none of my four
kids want to be on it. They,they consume it, but they will
not post not one, I think
Kristen Daukas (33:30):
that's very common in kind of what we talked
about the dark social, not thedark web, dark social, is they
want to share things, but theyshare it with a very small
group, they show it with theshirt with their friends,
they're not posting, they're notposting the way our generation
does, and the way that boomersare, because now those which is
probably the reason why Snapchatwas so popular and is so popular
(33:50):
with them is still Yeah, isbecause they share amongst their
little circle, they probablyhave, you know, 50 you know,
side chats going on with all oftheir different groups of
friends. And, you know, I havefound that that's kind of what I
do now more so with my friends.
You know, I don't post nearly asmuch as I used to, I just, I
think you and I both know wisebecause we live breathe, live
(34:12):
and breathe it so by the timewe're like now I'll scroll
through it, I'll consume it inlittle bits but beyond that, not
much. So we're gonna get readyto wrap up what kind of let's
let's dole out a little bit ofadvice here. Let's say that
we've got some millennialparents whose kids are you know,
because the a lot of theselessons you really need to be
(34:33):
doing from the beginning andagain, we're not parenting
experts. We're just parents thathave you know, gone through the
wringer. You know, these hardskills that they are not
learning really need to betaught like you just you're not
doing your kids any favor, andit's really hard to retro
actively do it. I thought I haddone a really good job with my
(34:55):
kids as far as personal finance.
You know, last month I did It isI call it the winter mom tour.
And I literally took number twoand number one, physical
financial journals, here is yourbudget planner. Because they are
both all over the place. I'mlike, if you don't get this in
check, now, you are going to besuffering big time. And life is
(35:17):
too expensive for you to be, youknow, winging it, flying by the
seat of your pants when it comesto money. I was like, because
you make good money, but youdon't make enough money to live
right now. And you know, myoldest has went and got a second
job, it finally sunk into herthat she wants to have the kind
of life that she wants to have.
And that when I say that I'mtalking about just going out
(35:38):
with her friends, because shelives in DC. It's one of the
most expensive cities in theUnited States. She had to get a
second job.
Dorien (35:45):
Yeah, yeah, my son has two jobs, my oldest son, any
advice, I would say talk to yourkids have conversations. We, as
a parent, I grew up in theNetherlands where everything is
very. I'm not gonna say rigid,but everything is on time, we
are the country, if you sayyou're gonna show up at five,
(36:05):
you call somebody if it's 501.
And you're late. Okay, you'relate 501. So everything is
scheduled. I guess that's a goodway to say it, including what
happens in school how you learn,like every single kid and
gardener in the Netherlandslearns how to tie their shoes,
you can't graduate kindergartenuntil you've done that. That's
just part of what you do. Infifth grade, or sixth grade,
sixth grade. They do that beforeyou go to middle school,
(36:27):
everybody writes their bikes,you have to go through traffic,
not traffic court, but liketraffic lessons. And you go in a
whole class, you all wear thislittle vest and you go into
traffic and you learn how tobike from your little
neighborhood into the big city,because you'll be expected to do
that on your own. But everybodylearns at the same time. And
that's kind of on top of that,you know, everybody's kind of on
(36:51):
the same schedule, all daycaresand and islands close at six
o'clock. Okay, they all close,so nobody works late. Because
you can't get your kid fromdaycare. Most people work 32
hours or less, especially iftheir parents, that's also
considered a full time job. Somost parents are off on
Wednesdays because Wednesday isa half day school in all of the
(37:12):
Netherlands. So becauseeverything is so scheduled,
everybody eats dinner between530 and six, and I stuck with
that I would have Tupperwareparties remember this. And I
would schedule mine at seveno'clock at night. And I would
have the same for yours. I havethe same Tupperware Lady and the
first couple of times she wouldcome she's like, I thought you
had kids like yeah, for theirsleep, she would walk in at
(37:34):
quarter to seven. Oh my god,she'd be looking at me like what
I said, we eat dinner at 536o'clock is bath by 630. You're
in your pajamas and or readingbooks. By 10 of seven, the doors
are closed. Now whether you goto sleep or not most of them do
go to sleep. Of course they
rapid five or 5 (37:51):
30am. And they didn't nap. But I would have my
evening to myself. And so thatschedule really worked well for
me the host of sticking to aschedule, having dinner together
every night and talking aboutyour day. If that's not
possible, have breakfast everymorning or you know, have tea
(38:11):
after they come come fromschool. But those rituals are
really important.
Kristen Daukas (38:15):
And here's a big one too. For younger parents.
Car time is valuableconversation time. Because
you're staring you're you'resitting next to each other
You're sitting staring probablystraight out of a dashboard in
some of the most awkward anduncomfortable conversations
happen in the car because you'renot having that direct eye to
eye contact. So take advantageof car time to
Dorien (38:38):
Yeah, what Yeah, whether it's a carpool or just driving
your kids to soccer or whatever,you know, after school activity,
really, really important. Andtake the trips. I mean, I flew
all over the world with our fourkids, sometimes by myself
sometimes with my husband wentto Europe, you know, three
planes to get there. Kids areresilient. They can do it. Stay
(39:00):
calm, you can do it and theexperience that they had
traveling and seeing new things.
It's nothing like it. Feed yourchildren, every food imaginable.
I grew up in a country whereevery single day we got
potatoes, one meatball, a bigmeatball and some vegetables
that was dinner every singlenight. I didn't like anything. I
moved to this country. Icouldn't even eat pizza. I never
(39:21):
had pizza didn't like spaghettihad never had any other cultural
food. And I didn't want my kidsto be that way and my husband
eats anything. So we'd be at aThai restaurant and he goes who
wants to eat octopus andeverybody says yes. So I have
learned to keep my face straightand look the other way and you
know not show what I'm thinkingthat I'm not eating that. So our
(39:41):
children eat anything teachingyoung to eat all the different
foods and kids do what you do.
If you want your kid to be areader. You have to hold a book
in your hand every once in awhile that's very want them to
be do sports. You have to beactive. I would have my kids on
the bus Like, I would push ajogging stroller and I take four
(40:03):
kids with me on a run, they allloved running, they all played
sports, they all were active,they're gonna do what you do. So
you can say all you want go playoutside. But if you never go
outside with them, you kids arenot gonna play outside. So not
saying you play outside all thetime. But go sit outside with a
book, right? Just be outsidewith them. So they know this is
a time to be outside. I learnedthat very early on, I was a
(40:25):
nanny for a lot of years andteaching a child to play. You
can model some of the play thatyou want. And then I would say
the best trick in the book is Igotta go to the bathroom. I'll
be right back. And then theywill continue to play and then
they look for me, I'd come backand I'm like, Oh, this is great.
We played for five minutes ago,oh, I'm gonna peel the potatoes.
Come right back, you know. Andso I would leave them longer and
(40:45):
longer to with their play, butyou have to model the behavior
that you want them to have. Soif you have kids who don't play,
it's because you didn't model isif you kid so do sports is
because you didn't show it. Ifyou have kids who don't read,
it's because you're not readingright? Pick up a book, take them
to the library. I mean, thoseare just simple things. But
think about what you're doing.
Your kids are going to be doingthe same thing if you're on your
(41:06):
phone all day. So are they youknow what they're doing? Yeah, I
think that's the best advice.
And it
Kristen Daukas (41:13):
goes both ways.
both good and bad. So badhabits, you know, you know, show
him bad habits. They're going totake on him, show him the good
ones. And they're going to dothat too. Thank you so much. For
this time, I knew we were goingto have a good conversation
because like I said, we wereboth very like minded. And I
personally, I think we're bothpretty damn awesome parents. I
think so too. Ya know, so farso, but I do appreciate it and
(41:36):
everybody out there. Iappreciate you taking the time
to listen, and till next time.
Have a wonderful life. As thesame goes, you don't have to go
home but you can't stay here andthat's a wrap for this week's
episode. A big thanks to myguests for sharing their story
and to you for listening. Don'tforget to share the show with
(41:59):
your friends and spread thewords. And if you'd like to be a
guest on the show, the link isin the show notes till next time
cheers
Welcome to Conversations on the rocks. The
podcast where the drink isstrong and the stories are
stronger. I'm your host, KristenDaukas. And this isn't your
average chat fest. Here realpeople spill the tea alongside
their favorite drinks from thehilarious to the heart wrenching
each episode a wildcard. You'lllaugh, you may cry, but you'll
definitely learn something new.
So grab whatever whet yourwhistle and buckle up it's time
(00:26):
to dive into the raw, the realand the ridiculously human.
Let's get this chat partystarted. Hey, everybody, it's
Kristen Daukas And we're backwith another episode of
conversations on the rocks. Andtoday I'm with Dorian Morin Van
Damme one of my very old notshe's not old, but we've been
(00:46):
friends for a really long time.
And during you just introduceyourself a little bit and then
we're gonna dive into this topicbecause we got a lot to go over
and a 30 minute segment. So Haveat it, sir. Absolutely.
Dorien (01:04):
I was born and raised in the Netherlands emigrated at age
18 by myself, married young,married and American I've
emigrated from the Netherlandsand raise four children with
stay at home mom and at age 40started my business. That's
where I met Kristin about 13years ago, 1412 13 years ago.
And I am a runner, I have abouttwo dogs. My children are now
(01:30):
aged 27 to 19. So, you knowthey're young adults, not not
you know, teenagers anymore thatthat phase lasted forever. And I
like to Yeah, I know. So I'vemorphed from a social media
manager into a social mediastrategist and consultant so
(01:50):
that's what I do run my ownbusiness and work full time and
loving it. So
Kristen Daukas (01:56):
you and I both have young adult children and
all but one of yours and all ofmine have been have left the
nest we are I am an empty nesterand you are 75% of an empty
nester 55th. T. Did we haveanother boomerang.
Dorien (02:17):
I've had two boomerangs already now I have two at home,
when a young adult is at home,because of a disability, and
then one is at home. He's ateenager. He's a 19 year old,
but he goes to college. He's acommuter, right? So he basically
lives there, but he just sleepshere.
Kristen Daukas (02:38):
And that is Generation Z for those who may
not be in tune with all thegenerations and obviously
joining an AI our Gen X. Andit's interesting and a very
challenging and so once we wantto kind of dive into the
challenges not just that weface, but that they are facing,
(03:03):
particularly the differencesbecause you married young,
right? I married a little olderthan you but I was out on my own
by the time I was 20. And it Icame from that generation of
once you left the house, you'regone. There was no boomerang and
going on with the boomergeneration. And it was tough.
But it is I cannot say that it'snearly as tough for me, or it
(03:26):
was as tough for me as it is forour kids. And whether it's the
economics piece of I just didread something not too long ago.
I don't know if you saw the samestudy that something crazy high
like 65% of parents aresupporting in some capacity,
(03:46):
their adult children up to anover the age of 30. Whether that
looks like helping them out withrent, helping them out with
other bills, helping them outwith food, something. What has
been your experience with thetwo that are even you know, what
has been your experience withyour kids after they have left?
Dorien (04:04):
Yeah, so two of them boom ranked back one after
college when we moved from SouthCarolina to Vermont. So he
finished college right at thetime that we moved. So he
decided that he was going tocheck out Vermont and live with
us for seven months. He movedback right before COVID hit and
then the other one was incollege and boomerang during
(04:25):
college because she was kickedout of the dorm and had to come
live with us for a year beforeshe moved back to college and
then and eventually got married.
She got married young. But yeah,they they experiences that we've
told them if you need support,we see how hard it is. So they
know to ask for the things thatthey need. We carried our oldest
(04:46):
is 27 we carried him on ourhealth insurance so he we
couldn't anymore till he was 26and one of something that I want
to touch on right now that Ithink you were gonna bring up
anyway is that you know He got acollege education. But right now
he's working two labor intensivejobs. He's not really working in
what he studied. He's degree inbiology and chemistry. And he
(05:09):
doesn't want to work inside,decided that he wants to work
outside, he works on the beachworks at a horse farm, and
loving the work that he does.
But you know, that doesn'tnecessarily give you a lot of
stability and their seasonaljobs, both of them, but he's
(05:30):
happy. And the advice that wegave him, you know, 10 years
ago, and that we were expectedto give his go to college. And
he's said to us, if I were to doit again, I wouldn't go to
college. But then that's alsowhere all his friends have come
from. That's where he became anadult, he moved out at 18. He
(05:53):
told us afterwards, it was sofunny, we drove him to college,
and he didn't go into the dorm,he went to College of
Charleston, where there's ashortage of dorm rooms anyway,
so they allow freshmen to liveoff campus, even as freshmen.
And so he thought we were gonnagive him a lot of cash, even
though we said you're on yourown. We don't, we won't pay for
college, you have to figure itout. You saved during high
(06:16):
school, you got scholarships,you got to work in college, and
we can't help you. And he reallythought that we were going to
drop him off and give him acouple $1,000. And we didn't,
and so he had to figure it out.
I
Kristen Daukas (06:29):
think a lot of that, too. And it's I've got a
funny story for you. That justhappened to me last night
talking to because again, youand I are so similar in our
personalities, especially whenit comes to parenting, and it
others our other parent peers,literally have made our job very
(06:49):
difficult, in the sense of itmakes us tease us up to be kind
of the bad guy, right? And suchin last night, I got a text from
my oldest and she said, have youguys been saving for our
weddings? And I was like, no,no, we haven't. And she's like,
well, who's gonna pay for mywedding? And I'm like, I'm gonna
say that's probably you. I said,my parents didn't pay for my
(07:10):
they, you know, those are thetwo things too. They didn't pay
for my college. They didn't Ididn't go to college. Right? I
you know, I don't have a degree.
And they didn't pay for it. Theypaid for a little bit of my
wedding. Right. But thatexpectation from Gen Z is that
we're just throwing out moneyright and left. And I'm like, I
don't know it sometimes with herespecially. I look at her and I
(07:31):
go have you not lived with usfor 26 years? Like at which
point of you're growing up? Didyou ever see us with you know
wads of cash that we were justthrown throwing to you guys like
we can help you when we can.
It's kind of going back to howexpensive it is. And you know,
with her, I made the commitmentto her just to help her get in a
(07:54):
little bit better of an area inWashington DC. I said I will
commit to giving you $200 amonth. And it's sad. It's not a
ton. But you know, it'ssomething that you can count on.
And she's like, I don't wantyour money as it but if I put it
in my budget, then I know right?
And so that helped her I mean,even just 200 bucks a month can
help get them to a better place.
(08:15):
Right. But yeah, I was like, No,we have not saved for your
wedding. We are not paying foryour wedding. I said I would say
so let's go ahead and hopefullyyou can set your expectations
now, if and when you decide tofinally get married. But you
know, looking and I rememberwhen she turned it was something
about her class. It was that herclass of 2017 all of the kids in
(08:38):
that class were over indulged,like when they turned 16 There
were joined there were morebrand new than I'm not talking
just cars. I'm talking likebeamers Porsches, Jeep
Wranglers, I mean, you name it,it was sitting in that parking
lot in the with the keys in thehands of 16 year old kids.
Dorien (08:59):
Do you do you think it's because we both lived in the
south at that my son graduated2017 as well. And you know, we
love the South Carolina knowyou're in North Carolina. I
don't know if it was because ofwhere we lived. I do think
there's a different lifestylethere and expectations. And then
(09:19):
the that's a funny story aboutYour daughter asking or when our
daughter got married, she had awedding, just the two of them,
plus the two sets of parents.
But our kids know our story. Myhusband and I got married at the
bus stop. So we paid a justiceof the peace $175 to show up. We
rented two limousines and wedrove around with our friends.
We weren't old enough to drinkso we couldn't go to a bar or
(09:41):
anything. We were both under 21When we got married, and we
didn't go on a honeymoon. Ithink my husband sister got us a
night at a hotel. And that's allwe spent and then say about 10
years later we were invited tobe in a wedding. We spent more
on somebody else's wedding beingThe bridesmaid and the best man
then we did on our own wedding.
(10:03):
And so our kids have known thatstory. And they know, it's not
about the wedding, right? It'sabout the marriage. And I think
that, you know, that philosophyhas, you know, trickled through
to everything that us as parentsthat we've tried to teach our
children, you know, those thingsfade when my son went to
(10:23):
college, and that same truck,When we drive in him, when he's
thinking, we're going to handhand him a bunch of cash. I also
asked him, I said, you're now anadult, you're going out on your
own, what are your best memoriesof childhood. And he said, our
four month trip to Brazil, orfour months living in the
Netherlands, because they wentto school with their cousins,
driving up to Westfield,Massachusetts, and seeing snow,
(10:46):
it was all about experiences, hedidn't rear end birthday
parties, we always hadincredible birthday party
experiences, nothing, that Ihired somebody for $1,000 to
come in and entertain the kids.
We did, you know, survivor gamesand, you know, Olympics on the
beach. And he said it was theexperiences that he remembered
not the things that he got. Soif you're listening, as a
(11:08):
parent, that's what your kidswill remember, it's about how it
made them feel.
Kristen Daukas (11:15):
And that is, and that's something I've tried to
pass on to my kids too, as faras, you know, to pull away from
the monetary piece of it oractually to, especially when it
comes to travel. And for somereason, and I don't know why
keep throwing my oldest, it'snot a throwing her under the
bus. But it seems like I havemore examples there. But for her
(11:35):
21st birthday, she wanted to goto California with her friends.
But she was worried about howmuch it was because California
is not cheap, right? And she wasworried about spending the
money. I said, you can alwaysmake more money, you can always
replace your money, you can'treplace the experience. Right?
So I've always tried to be veryexperienced, driven with them.
And you know, same thing, youknow, as far as did I did each
(11:57):
of them have a brand new car.
Absolutely not. But we did ourdamnedest to, you know, have
really great experiences withthem, whether it was a cruise or
whether you know, big thingslike that. That's I would just
rather spend my money onsomething. And I have been
trying for the past five yearsto get rid of Christmas. And I
think this year is going to bethe year because we're taking
that cruise degrees. And it'sI'm like, I'd rather take
(12:17):
whatever my unlike tell me whatyou got last year. Tell me what
you got for Christmas, like notyou. But to them. Tell me tell
me all the things you they can'ttell you, right? However, if you
do a trip, they'll be like, oh,yeah, remember that time we did
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
How did you work with your kids?
To be good financial stewards tomake them fiscally? How did you
(12:39):
train them fiscally?
Dorien (12:43):
Okay, so my oldest was born in 1996. So it was he's
right on the cusp of millennialGen Z, I think I think that's
right on that edge. So when hewent all my kids turned 13, I
got him a bank account under mybank account. So they got a
debit card. And so that was oneof the things I did. So they
(13:05):
could see how much all theirmoney had to go through it. If
they made money from babysittingor whatever had to go in there
first, and then you can use it.
So I didn't want them to usecash. I want them to see it on
there. So it was registered. Andthen so that was one of the
things I did with each one ofthem. The other thing I did is I
paid my children forbabysitting, especially my
oldest two for babysitting theyounger ones, I was able to
start a job and start a businessbecause they were able to
(13:29):
babysit and help me with that.
But I also made them pay forthings like their phone. So my
son would babysit his youngersiblings, I would give him $5 an
hour. So maybe I was on the jobfor four hours. I was
merchandising. And I wouldliterally pay him every day.
Right? It's payday. Every day ispayday, you just did this,
here's your money.
Kristen Daukas (13:49):
I'll talk I talked about talking about
setting a standard that'sunrealistic in the real world.
Dorien (13:54):
Right. But as a 13 year old, leaving him alone making
lunch for his siblings, it was aso then I would give him the
cash. And he would go to hisroom. And he knew he had to put
it like through the through thethrough the bank. But he would
be sitting in his room. Andsometimes he'd say, Okay, I'm
gonna spend this on my phone,like on minutes on my phone, or
(14:16):
sometimes he'd be like, Oh, Ithink I'm gonna go to the mall
with my friends and buy a newhat or, you know, he would think
about what he would spend hismoney on. And so sometimes he
would hand me the money back andsaid, I really don't feel like
putting it through the bank. CanI just use it for game state
game, you know, play on thecomputer, but it was that, you
(14:36):
know, I get money, I can spendmoney kind of thing. And then so
he was about 13 or 14 when hegot his first phone and that was
you know, the there was thetexting was, you know, the AABB
you know, kind of texting thing.
Our second son didn't have aphone till he was 16 he even
though he got a job at 16 Ithink that's when he got his
phone or daughter. I'm thinkingshe was 15 or so. Oh, my
(14:58):
youngest one. Now he's eightyears younger than the oldest.
So that's really the nextgeneration. All his friends had
phones in fifth grade. So herehe is, and in seventh grade, and
he didn't have a phone. So Isaid, you have to have a job
because here's the thing,parents, you can hand your child
a phone, but you're stuck payingthe bill. So even if they get a
phone for Christmas, you have arecurring bill. That's the part
(15:20):
that explain to my kids, I canbuy a phone for Christmas, how
are you going to pay for thebill and they look at me and
like there's a $30 at that pointBill recurring every month. So I
told them, You have to have ajob in order to pay that bill. I
can give you the phone all youwant, but there's gonna be
nothing that you can do with itunless you can pay the bill. So
he was 13 or going on 13. Hereally wanted to foam. And you
(15:42):
know who's gonna hire a 13 yearold? Well, he's a soccer player.
So he got certified. They wereshort on soccer refs, he got
certified at age 12. They, theythey're like, Okay, you're
almost 13 You can do that. Andhe started reffing, little kid
league games, soccer games, youget $20 A game. He was 13 years
old. He did tournaments,sometimes tournaments, he would
(16:02):
do like six games a day in thehazzan in Myrtle Beach, South
Carolina. But he would make bankand so he and then he would be
like, can I spend it? I'm like,your bill is coming up $30 a
month, you got to have themoney, otherwise, your phone's
not gonna work. So let's putsome of the money towards your
phone bill for the next threemonths and then see what you
have left, right. But yeah, hethat's how they learned. But he
(16:23):
was the youngest. He was 13. Andhe really wanted that phone. And
he was, I think the last one inthe carpool that got his phone,
but he ended up paying for it.
Kristen Daukas (16:32):
I know. Also, a lot of parents in our
generation, it was a nonnegotiable about going to
college. And in this house, itwas I didn't force the issue.
Because you and I both areentrepreneurs. And that's
something I've tried to get allof my girls to do is to find
(16:54):
something. So find somethingthat can be a side hustle for
you, right? And it could turninto something that's more
permanent. But I was not. Iremember when one of Kinsey's
friends made the declarationthat he was going to H back
school. Right. And I was like,that's amazing. That's
incredible. You know, becauseyou and I both worked with a
(17:14):
certain particular client that,you know, started with a truck
with a van and is amultimillionaire now. Right. And
I don't think he ever went tocollege. And it's not that I'm
against college, but the cost ofcollege at this point, it just
doesn't make sense. I just sawyesterday or the day before
where Campbell University, Ibelieve, is in order to go
(17:37):
there. Their tuition, roomboard, books in and out the door
one year $100,000. I
Dorien (17:47):
saw something that that's the that's, that's now
it's now past. Yeah,
Kristen Daukas (17:52):
so raise that is insane. And, you know, you and I
sit in enough Facebook job, youknow, marketing groups, were the
people that are in marketingthat are saying like, Oh, you
know, I mean, they're going onhundreds of interviews. So the
job market is not supporting it.
It just in our industry alone,it is definitely not the salary,
(18:12):
that it's it the sound, as weall know, we are all living it.
salaries have not kept pace withthe cost of living. And I it is
hard for me to justify tellingsomeone go ahead and get
yourself $250,000 in debt, for adegree and good luck, getting a
salary, maybe around 50 grand,these kids are going to
(18:38):
absolutely be drowning in debt,the rest of their lives, we are
setting these kids up forfailure, and a very bad
financial demise by insistingthat they all go to college. And
instead we need to be applaudingthe these kids that want to go
to trade school. You know what'sgreat about trade school, you
know, what's great about being aplumber, or an H back or an
(19:00):
electrician. When your shift isdone, you're done. You go home,
you have a nice burger and frieswith your family or whatever it
is that you do when you get offyou go for a run whatever you're
done. The stress on those jobsis just nothing compared to the
stress of the court. It's
Dorien (19:25):
so so so let me say that it I also don't have a college
degree. Like you didn't go tocollege. Remember I got married
young, my husband was still incollege and he was getting an
undergrad degree. And then bythe time we started having kids,
he got his master's so supportedhim through two degrees. And so
the expectation on his end wasyes, you go to college, but
(19:48):
we're not paying for it. Whichis kind of not the best way to
do that. Now we were lucky inSouth Carolina is one of maybe
two three states. We where theygive scholarships, gate state
scholarships based on merit, noton income, which was very
fortunate for my oldestchildren, they all got the
(20:10):
highest level scholarship fromthe state, they qualify because
they were in the top 6% or 5% oftheir class in the high school
that they were in. So mydaughter got additional
scholarships. So she basicallyhad a free ride, including cost
of living. My son got a freeride for the school part and the
books part, but he had to payhis own cost of living. That's
(20:31):
why I had to work and pay hisown rent and everything. So that
was lucky. My youngest now we'rein Vermont. That's a whole
different ballgame. We aresupporting him by allowing him
to live at home for four years,right. So he doesn't have the
cost of living to pay forbecause the other kids had left
by then. But he has to pay forhis own college. So it's about
(20:55):
five 6000 This semester, and hehas to come up with that money.
Now he saved money. He took alittle loan, you know, he pays
for there's not a whole lot ofbooks at these, what he's
studying. So there's a lot ofonline stuff. He we did have to
purchase a new car because he'sa commuter. And his car broke
down. So we purchased a carthat's in our name, obviously
our car, but he hasn't put hisown gas in it. And so he had a
(21:18):
chance to potentially be an RAand live on campus. But he's
like, Yeah, but then I have tobuy the food package. And that's
another 2000 a semester. Andhe's like, if I live at home,
yeah, I have a commute. But youknow, all that is free. So he's
doing the math on all of that.
And he found a great food hack.
All of his friends. It's a verysmall college, all of his
(21:40):
friends have the, what do youcall the food package? What do
you call that meal plan, thedorm meal plan, meal plan, golf
food package, it's the samething, meal plan, they all have
a meal plan and they all get Ithink 20 or 30 guest passes. So
he is the beneficiary of everysingle one of their guests
passes. So because otherwise hewould have to pay himself so
(22:01):
he's being frugal with his moneybecause it's his money if it was
my money, and I would be buyingexactly the plan. That's the
difference. Right? So yeah, hedoes live at home. I do his
laundry. But wait, wait, doeshis own cooking, do his laundry,
do his laundry, I do hislaundry? Yep, he's not he has a
45 minute commute each way.
Kristen Daukas (22:22):
You're doing it to make his life easier.
Dorien (22:24):
I'm doing it to make his life easier. He does his own
cooking because I'm vegan and heeats steak. So he does his own
cooking. He does his ownbedding. Like what I say is I do
his laundry, but he has to striphis own bed and he has to make
his own bed I put in a laundrymachine. So I'm helping him that
way.
Unknown (22:43):
Here hear what actual AI generated voices are saying
about the Wheeler's dog podcast,it can be amusing it's better
than going to the dentist theaward winning we list on podcast
can be found just about anywherethat you get podcast
listening to Eugene is betterthan looking at Eugene. Let's
put it this way that we was thatpodcast is better than having
(23:04):
your leg broken by a loan sharkif
AI generated voices are sayingthat about the Wheelers gone
podcast? Shouldn't you be alistener to?
Kristen Daukas (23:13):
Again, I'm gonna throw out the disclaimer, I am
not mom of the year. I am notthe world's greatest parent in
the world. My entire objectivewith my parenting career was to
produce functioning young adultsinto the world right. However,
something I don't know if yousee it with your kids friends,
but something that I saw withthe girls friends is that these
kids have no street smarts. Theyhave very little common sense.
(23:38):
And listening to you talk aboutyour son with his you know,
going through therationalization of you know if I
do this than that, and this thanthat, that's making him very
street smart. That's That'scommon sense. And so many the
you know, there's I love Gen Zand there's so many great things
about them that there arecertain things about them that
make me flippin crazy. And thefact that the lack of street
(24:01):
smarts and common sense is oneof them. And the lack of sense
of urgency is another one. Hmm,maybe it's just because I'm
like, you know, little Tasmaniandevil and I'm, you know, just
like, Go Go, go, go go go allthe time. But like the like,
sometimes the sense of the lackof sense of urgency makes me
crazy. But by making our kids dothings like their own laundry,
(24:26):
their own cooking, I might havebought the car, but you have to
pay extra like I think for mygirls, I said you have to pay me
150 bucks a month. Right? Andthat was partially for the car,
the maintenance and theinsurance, right? I'm like, I
can't offset this entire thing.
I'm not going to offset this.
Because when you get out thereinto the world and you are own
(24:47):
do you buy your own car, you'regoing to have these hard costs
as well. You may as well getused to understanding that if I
have a car I'm going to havethis this and this. If I have a
phone I'm going to have thisthis and this. If I have a
credit card I'm going to havehave this, this and this. And so
in some of their friends,clueless 100% Clueless.
Dorien (25:08):
Yeah, I saw that a lot.
I drove a lot of carpool. Andyou know, if you have young
children, you're listening toconversations on the rocks,
drive carpool, you get all thesecrets you get all the time
they spill all the tea. Butyeah, I was in the carpool with
a 13 year old too. That was theconversation. She got a phone
for her birthday. And she wasall excited. And I say, so you
got the phone for your birthday.
(25:30):
And she told us it was it thiswas you know, long time ago, but
it was a lot of money. And, youknow, I'm like, who's gonna pay
for the phone? She goes, Well, Igot it. I'm like, No, there's
gonna be a bill who's gonna payfor it. And she just didn't
understand and you're not doingyou can service if you don't
explain these things, thatthere's a bill that goes with
that. And there's a bill forinsurance insurance goes up, I
(25:52):
can say that my youngest son hadhis driver's license for four
days and got his first ticket,his first speeding ticket, this
person only speeding ticket, butyou know, the insurance was
gonna go up, and we made him paythe difference. Because we had
said again, you need your carfor school. He was, you know,
driving 45 minutes to the highschool at that point. Because
we're live pretty remote. Socollege is 45 minutes, but high
(26:15):
school was also 45 minutes. Andhe said, if you get another
ticket and you can't drive,you're taking the bus right?
Going back on the bus.
Kristen Daukas (26:22):
Can I can I can say something. Yeah, you're nice
because the first speedingticket that the oldest got, I
wasn't taking the insurance saidI told her said you got to pay
$300 for an attorney to get ittaken care of. Oh,
Dorien (26:33):
no, he ended up paying the difference of the insurance
of the insurance. So he had topay the difference. Yeah, it was
like, I don't know. We weren'tbeing nice. No, no, we weren't
being nice. He had to pay that.
So I think that our kids haverealized pretty early on we're
you know, that's how we do it.
But when we see our kidsstruggle, Lea say say it over
(26:55):
and over. If you need somethingyou need to open your mouth.
When I go visit my children. Theweekends on me, I fly over to to
live in South Carolina. I takethem to dinner, I buy them
groceries, I went for Christmas,my daughter didn't have a
Christmas tree. I went two weeksbefore Christmas. I'm like,
let's go to Home Depot, we got aChristmas tree because it was a
first house. We got everythinggot the lights, like if I see
(27:17):
something and I'm there. I'mbuying it. I can. Right. And
that's a good it
Kristen Daukas (27:21):
is. And those are soft costs. I call it the I
call those are soft costs. Andhere's a funny question. So when
you take your kids groceryshopping, when you go visit
them, see my kids are smart.
They are good shoppers like Itaught my kids early on to go
shopping for clothes at placeslike plato's closet, which is
confinement, if we do the samething, yes, do same thing. And
they they know that store brandis the same as blah, blah, blah,
(27:43):
but I swear to you, every time Itake them shopping, all of a
sudden, there's no such thing asgeneric. And I'm like, do you
buy them? Do you? Do you buymajor brands when on your money?
Or I don't say anything. I justthink it's funny. It's always an
observation. We have probablyabout 710 minutes left on this,
I want to touch on somethingelse about this generation. And
(28:05):
I particularly noticed it withmy middle. And so the 2019 class
of 2019 is the emotional andmental issues. There are split,
like I said, I mean, the oldestshe had it and the youngest.
They had it but for some reasonagain, it seemed like that
(28:25):
middle that middle class at2019. All of these kids had
anxiety, they had depression,they had some kind of
neurological something. What'syour experience with that?
Dorien (28:39):
100%? Same, I've got one class of 2018. And same? Yeah.
Kristen Daukas (28:46):
Do you think oh, I the social media? Do you think
it's the the peer pressure? Doyou think what it is? Or is it
because they didn't put that wehad it? But it wasn't
necessarily obviously, you know,back in the 60s and 70s You
didn't talk about things likethat. That's one of the things
that I do love about thisgeneration too, is they will
talk to you. They have they haveno shame in talking about things
(29:09):
of that nature. They're veryfluid.
Dorien (29:11):
I think they're the first they're not the generation
that grew up with it. Theyweren't two years old and
holding iPads right so they werestill there's a generation that
still remembers doing hopscotchoutside my children do did do
that. They you know, the firstcomputer they had or play
computers, probably they werelike eight nine, you know, we
had a Playstation and you know,then we had, you know, I don't
(29:35):
even know all the systems butthey really didn't get a phone
to laters on social media justcame into play after that. I
also told them you have to be 13Anyway, but I think they didn't
know how to deal with it. We asparents, we didn't grow up with
it. So the parents of thatgeneration weren't educated on
social media on like, kids go toschool to get sex ed you're
(29:57):
supposed to do this at homeparents but you know a lot of
kids learn Learn everything fromschool again, in the carpool,
you'll learn all kinds of stuffabout that, that they had sex ed
and what they learned and whatthe boys learned versus the
girls and what the boys didn'tlisten to, versus the girls,
which is also very interesting.
But there was no, there's beenno social media education, not
for their parents, the parentsdidn't know how to guide the
(30:18):
children. And then which
Kristen Daukas (30:21):
I did that for years. Coaching parents
Dorien (30:24):
is that you taught that Yeah, and that exact reason,
right. And so, I mean, one ofthe things we ran into was, my
daughter didn't want to be inpictures as well, or
selfconscious. And we lived inMyrtle Beach. So there was a lot
of pictures of half naked girlsbecause you're in your bathing
suit, and she would go to aparty, and she would say, I
don't want to be in the picture.
And they're like, Oh, it's okay.
(30:44):
We won't post that. She wouldn'teven leave the premises, and I
would be on Instagram. And Iwould ask her, do you want me to
ask, you know, ask your friendto take it down. friend wouldn't
take it down. If I go to theparent. Parents like it's her
phone, right? It's her thing.
And we don't do that anymore. Ithink now we're educated to say,
you know, you need to haveconsent. People know about
(31:05):
consent about, you know, youdon't post post pictures that
you don't have permission. Butthat was just it was also new.
Yeah, we didn't know my, my sonin fifth grade, was that first
generation of elementary school,they all got iPads. It was like
the end, they go to school, likemiddle of August. And I walk
into the library at the end ofthe day. And the librarian, if I
(31:26):
could see like, her hair wasstanding up. And she was like,
first day school. And she'slike, Oh, I said, what happened?
She goes, the fifth gradersfigured out that there's a
camera on the iPad, oh, my God.
And they didn't count for it.
Because they didn't know whatkids would do. What do kids do
in fifth grade with cameras onthe iPad, right? can only
imagine what happened that firstday. It was horrible. It's just
(31:49):
so like, she's putting tape overall of the cameras. And then
they had to make up a policy. SoI think it's that generation of
parents and teachers who didn'tknow how to guide these kids.
And they made up the rules afterall the things went, right.
Yeah, I really think that's whathappened. Everything went wrong
was react got anxiety, they wereit was reactive. That's a good
Kristen Daukas (32:13):
way to say elective, right. But it could
not have been proactive becausethey didn't know what they were
dealing with. Right. And Iremember when I would do these
courses for parents and I wouldgo they would bring me into the
schools. Right? And how many,especially again, 2017 oldest
kid, how many of their parents,the parents, other parents were
like, Oh, my kids would never dothat. I'm like, yeah, they are
(32:35):
because I see them. I see theirfenced. Yes, I know, don't don't
tell me your kids aren't, I'mnot gonna rat your kid out. But
yeah, they are there. And youknow, so many parents would just
bear in adults, let's just sayadults were burying their heads
in the ground over the socialmedia piece of it. And that's
when the damage happened. Yeah,
Dorien (32:58):
I agree. I think that's really the that's really the
gist of it. And then the youngergeneration, I think, they, by
that time, I was more fluent insocial media, obviously. And I
knew where to set theboundaries. And I knew to say
this is acceptable. This is notacceptable. But the interesting
(33:18):
part is, I don't know how yourkids are, but none of my four
kids want to be on it. They,they consume it, but they will
not post not one, I think
Kristen Daukas (33:30):
that's very common in kind of what we talked
about the dark social, not thedark web, dark social, is they
want to share things, but theyshare it with a very small
group, they show it with theshirt with their friends,
they're not posting, they're notposting the way our generation
does, and the way that boomersare, because now those which is
probably the reason why Snapchatwas so popular and is so popular
(33:50):
with them is still Yeah, isbecause they share amongst their
little circle, they probablyhave, you know, 50 you know,
side chats going on with all oftheir different groups of
friends. And, you know, I havefound that that's kind of what I
do now more so with my friends.
You know, I don't post nearly asmuch as I used to, I just, I
think you and I both know wisebecause we live breathe, live
(34:12):
and breathe it so by the timewe're like now I'll scroll
through it, I'll consume it inlittle bits but beyond that, not
much. So we're gonna get readyto wrap up what kind of let's
let's dole out a little bit ofadvice here. Let's say that
we've got some millennialparents whose kids are you know,
because the a lot of theselessons you really need to be
(34:33):
doing from the beginning andagain, we're not parenting
experts. We're just parents thathave you know, gone through the
wringer. You know, these hardskills that they are not
learning really need to betaught like you just you're not
doing your kids any favor, andit's really hard to retro
actively do it. I thought I haddone a really good job with my
(34:55):
kids as far as personal finance.
You know, last month I did It isI call it the winter mom tour.
And I literally took number twoand number one, physical
financial journals, here is yourbudget planner. Because they are
both all over the place. I'mlike, if you don't get this in
check, now, you are going to besuffering big time. And life is
(35:17):
too expensive for you to be, youknow, winging it, flying by the
seat of your pants when it comesto money. I was like, because
you make good money, but youdon't make enough money to live
right now. And you know, myoldest has went and got a second
job, it finally sunk into herthat she wants to have the kind
of life that she wants to have.
And that when I say that I'mtalking about just going out
(35:38):
with her friends, because shelives in DC. It's one of the
most expensive cities in theUnited States. She had to get a
second job.
Dorien (35:45):
Yeah, yeah, my son has two jobs, my oldest son, any
advice, I would say talk to yourkids have conversations. We, as
a parent, I grew up in theNetherlands where everything is
very. I'm not gonna say rigid,but everything is on time, we
are the country, if you sayyou're gonna show up at five,
(36:05):
you call somebody if it's 501.
And you're late. Okay, you'relate 501. So everything is
scheduled. I guess that's a goodway to say it, including what
happens in school how you learn,like every single kid and
gardener in the Netherlandslearns how to tie their shoes,
you can't graduate kindergartenuntil you've done that. That's
just part of what you do. Infifth grade, or sixth grade,
sixth grade. They do that beforeyou go to middle school,
(36:27):
everybody writes their bikes,you have to go through traffic,
not traffic court, but liketraffic lessons. And you go in a
whole class, you all wear thislittle vest and you go into
traffic and you learn how tobike from your little
neighborhood into the big city,because you'll be expected to do
that on your own. But everybodylearns at the same time. And
that's kind of on top of that,you know, everybody's kind of on
(36:51):
the same schedule, all daycaresand and islands close at six
o'clock. Okay, they all close,so nobody works late. Because
you can't get your kid fromdaycare. Most people work 32
hours or less, especially iftheir parents, that's also
considered a full time job. Somost parents are off on
Wednesdays because Wednesday isa half day school in all of the
(37:12):
Netherlands. So becauseeverything is so scheduled,
everybody eats dinner between530 and six, and I stuck with
that I would have Tupperwareparties remember this. And I
would schedule mine at seveno'clock at night. And I would
have the same for yours. I havethe same Tupperware Lady and the
first couple of times she wouldcome she's like, I thought you
had kids like yeah, for theirsleep, she would walk in at
(37:34):
quarter to seven. Oh my god,she'd be looking at me like what
I said, we eat dinner at 536o'clock is bath by 630. You're
in your pajamas and or readingbooks. By 10 of seven, the doors
are closed. Now whether you goto sleep or not most of them do
go to sleep. Of course they
rapid five or 5 (37:51):
30am. And they didn't nap. But I would have my
evening to myself. And so thatschedule really worked well for
me the host of sticking to aschedule, having dinner together
every night and talking aboutyour day. If that's not
possible, have breakfast everymorning or you know, have tea
(38:11):
after they come come fromschool. But those rituals are
really important.
Kristen Daukas (38:15):
And here's a big one too. For younger parents.
Car time is valuableconversation time. Because
you're staring you're you'resitting next to each other
You're sitting staring probablystraight out of a dashboard in
some of the most awkward anduncomfortable conversations
happen in the car because you'renot having that direct eye to
eye contact. So take advantageof car time to
Dorien (38:38):
Yeah, what Yeah, whether it's a carpool or just driving
your kids to soccer or whatever,you know, after school activity,
really, really important. Andtake the trips. I mean, I flew
all over the world with our fourkids, sometimes by myself
sometimes with my husband wentto Europe, you know, three
planes to get there. Kids areresilient. They can do it. Stay
(39:00):
calm, you can do it and theexperience that they had
traveling and seeing new things.
It's nothing like it. Feed yourchildren, every food imaginable.
I grew up in a country whereevery single day we got
potatoes, one meatball, a bigmeatball and some vegetables
that was dinner every singlenight. I didn't like anything. I
moved to this country. Icouldn't even eat pizza. I never
(39:21):
had pizza didn't like spaghettihad never had any other cultural
food. And I didn't want my kidsto be that way and my husband
eats anything. So we'd be at aThai restaurant and he goes who
wants to eat octopus andeverybody says yes. So I have
learned to keep my face straightand look the other way and you
know not show what I'm thinkingthat I'm not eating that. So our
(39:41):
children eat anything teachingyoung to eat all the different
foods and kids do what you do.
If you want your kid to be areader. You have to hold a book
in your hand every once in awhile that's very want them to
be do sports. You have to beactive. I would have my kids on
the bus Like, I would push ajogging stroller and I take four
(40:03):
kids with me on a run, they allloved running, they all played
sports, they all were active,they're gonna do what you do. So
you can say all you want go playoutside. But if you never go
outside with them, you kids arenot gonna play outside. So not
saying you play outside all thetime. But go sit outside with a
book, right? Just be outsidewith them. So they know this is
a time to be outside. I learnedthat very early on, I was a
(40:25):
nanny for a lot of years andteaching a child to play. You
can model some of the play thatyou want. And then I would say
the best trick in the book is Igotta go to the bathroom. I'll
be right back. And then theywill continue to play and then
they look for me, I'd come backand I'm like, Oh, this is great.
We played for five minutes ago,oh, I'm gonna peel the potatoes.
Come right back, you know. Andso I would leave them longer and
(40:45):
longer to with their play, butyou have to model the behavior
that you want them to have. Soif you have kids who don't play,
it's because you didn't model isif you kid so do sports is
because you didn't show it. Ifyou have kids who don't read,
it's because you're not readingright? Pick up a book, take them
to the library. I mean, thoseare just simple things. But
think about what you're doing.
Your kids are going to be doingthe same thing if you're on your
(41:06):
phone all day. So are they youknow what they're doing? Yeah, I
think that's the best advice.
And it
Kristen Daukas (41:13):
goes both ways.
both good and bad. So badhabits, you know, you know, show
him bad habits. They're going totake on him, show him the good
ones. And they're going to dothat too. Thank you so much. For
this time, I knew we were goingto have a good conversation
because like I said, we wereboth very like minded. And I
personally, I think we're bothpretty damn awesome parents. I
think so too. Ya know, so farso, but I do appreciate it and
(41:36):
everybody out there. Iappreciate you taking the time
to listen, and till next time.
Have a wonderful life. As thesame goes, you don't have to go
home but you can't stay here andthat's a wrap for this week's
episode. A big thanks to myguests for sharing their story
and to you for listening. Don'tforget to share the show with
(41:59):
your friends and spread thewords. And if you'd like to be a
guest on the show, the link isin the show notes till next time
cheers
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