May 21, 2024 • 37 mins
In this episode, we welcome back Sara Munro to discuss overcoming imposter syndrome. We delve into self-doubt challenges and effective strategies for a positive work environment. Sara shares her experiences and stresses open conversations and the need for a safe space to seek support without judgment. We explore workplace culture's impact on imposter syndrome, focusing on fostering psychological safety.
Sara challenges traditional definitions of success, encourages the setting of realistic goals, and emphasizes self-growth. Practical techniques for building confidence and combating imposter syndrome are shared, including positive self-talk and mentorship. Sara uses personal examples to illustrate strategies, highlighting the importance of self-compassion. Our aim is to provide listeners with insights and tools to overcome imposter syndrome and unleash their potential in a supportive environment.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kristen Daukas (00:05):
Welcome to Conversations on the rocks. The
podcast where the drink isstrong and the stories are
stronger. I'm your host, KristenDaukas. And this isn't your
average chat best. Here realpeople spill the tea alongside
their favorite drinks from thehilarious to the heart wrenching
each episode a wildcard. You'lllaugh, you may cry, but you'll
definitely learn something new.
So grab whatever whet yourwhistle and buckle up, it's time
(00:28):
to dive into the raw, the realand the ridiculously human.
Let's get this chat partystarted. Hey, everybody, it's
Kristin Okis. You are tuned into conversations on the rocks.
The show that is as random asme, but trying to stay specific.
I again have my friend SarahMonroe joining me. And if you
(00:53):
listened in whenever she washere the first time I'll make
sure I put her first episodeabout impostor syndrome in the
show notes for this one. She'sup in northern New England. And
by now I'm going to say there'sdaisies. We're going to pretend
there's daisies everywhere andDaffodil and right, tulips. So
Sarah has got a ton ofexperience in a lot of fields,
(01:16):
from fundraising and PR todigital media, and even a
molecular biologist fancy. Sarahis now working with small
business developments and genderequality organizations. And Tara
cheers again.
Unknown (01:34):
Cheers, cheers. Here's my ELSS my ice is almost gone.
But it's still cool.
Kristen Daukas (01:40):
So, Sarah, when we talked in our first
conversation, we just kind ofdid a, if you will impostor
syndrome 101. And there was somegreat content, I encourage you
if you have not listened to it,to go back and listen to it.
Because it looks very similar.
But it looks very different to alot of people. And one of the
things that I wanted to bringyou back on to talk about is how
(02:02):
we can help. How can we helpourselves? How can we help our
friends? How can we help ourcolleagues who might be
suffering from impostorsyndrome? So let's talk a little
bit about mentorship andcommunity support. And, you
know, if you've got someexamples of things that have
worked, other than, you know, wehave conversations, I think it's
(02:24):
pretty easy to pick out. I'mgoing to sum it up retract, I
was curious, I think it's prettyeasy to pick out somebody who's
suffering from impostorsyndrome. But I think as women,
we are so good at pushing thingsdown, and faking it till we make
it. And I think one of thethings that would be
(02:44):
advantageous to all women is forall of us to open our mouths and
talk about it and say, Okay, Iknow that I'm really good at
what I do. And I know I've hadthis conversation with you, with
you ladies in our mastermindgroup. It's like, I know what
I'm doing. Why am I strugglingwith this? Why? What is my
mental block? What is it? Sowhat are some things that we can
(03:06):
do to, you know, help oursisterhood with this?
Sara (03:12):
Right, right? Well, we, in the last episode, we left, we
left off talking about a squathaving a squad around you. And
that's one piece you hadmentioned to me at one point,
some of the discussion groupsabout podcasts where people are
saying none of my friends andfamily are commenting. We say
(03:34):
this as social media managers,our internal staff aren't
sharing our posts aren'tcommenting on our posts to help
amplify us. And when we thinkabout a squad, when we think
about support, it's not thoseclosest and around to us, right?
It's not our friends and familybecause often, they don't
understand they know us in adifferent light. They knew us as
(03:57):
children, or they knew us whenwe were still figuring things
out, or we were students orwhatever it was, or they just
don't understand, or they don'tcare do they don't care. They
care about us daily. Yeah, theycare about us
Kristen Daukas (04:12):
as humans, but you know, it's, you know,
they're like, Okay, that'sgreat. Right?
Sara (04:17):
And so, here's, here's something when we talk about
imposter syndrome or imposterphenomenon, whatever we want to
call it, right? The not fittingin, it's because especially
people who are breaking in whoare the first or who are the
first to represent whateveridentity it is that they're
(04:38):
bringing to the table. They'renot feeling like they fit in
because they don't fit in thatsomeone hasn't been there. And
we can feel it too if you're ina new position. I've been in
positions that were brand new tothe organizations that I've been
a part of, and so I didn't fitin because I didn't fit in
(04:59):
there. hadn't finished. So Ineeded to build that structure
around me, I had to ask, in manycases, I had to be bold enough,
it's really easy for me with,you know, the experience that I
have to call out exclusionarypractices, and I've had a lot of
training in it to do it, I stillget really nervous when I have
(05:20):
to do it. Sure.
Kristen Daukas (05:21):
Nobody likes to buck the system on No, we love
to buck the system. But we don'twant to. I just don't think
really it's in any of our DNA.
Or, for the most part, it's notin most of our DNA. We everybody
wants things to go smoothly,right? And at the end of the
day, everybody wants to beliked, right?
Sara (05:41):
Yes. And I would say and accepted and accepted. Yet, I
think there's a different thecultural shift. In the
workplace, especially we'retalking about the workplace
right now, the cultural shiftthat has happened, thanks to Gen
(06:01):
X, millennials, Gen Z, cominginto leadership positions, or
rising through or just our sheernumbers now that we don't see
work as the end all be all, asit was, and especially after the
last four years. And how manyrecessions have we lived
through? This point, right?
Yeah, exactly. Your work is notloyal to you. And so making sure
(06:26):
that sometimes you to protectyourself, it's not your value,
your worth is not in peopleliking you 100% of the time at
work. And that's a hardrealization to come to, and a
hard cultural shift, given theexpectations of most of the
leadership that's out there thatare still older. That yes, you
(06:49):
we want you to be team players,we want you this way we want we
want you to speak up, we wantyou to be yourself. As long as
you're the self that we want. Wewe want that we see you as and
that's where that not fitting inthat imposter syndrome. am I
faking it? Sometimes people arefaking it and an n a knowledge
(07:12):
base, but a lot of times they'refaking it personally, right?
They're hiding so many parts ofthemselves that contribute even
more to not feeling like you'relike you belong, right? You and
I have naturally curly hair,right? Yeah, I've straightened
it many times to fit in, andworkplaces, or what's expected
(07:34):
of me or there's a big event andcurly hair is not professional.
Right.
Kristen Daukas (07:43):
And I think a lot of our women of color,
understand that they're peopleof color, not just women. I
mean, who, but yeah, I'm on theflip side of that. I love my
curls. And thank you menopause.
I've lost them. So now I'mhaving to straighten my hair
out. And I hate it because Iliked my curls. But yeah, what
up?
Sara (08:01):
Well, there's, there's lots of things. Yes, certainly,
people would much diversebackgrounds than we have the
fitting in. But it comes some ofmy personal experiences have
been, I've used my middle name,my middle name is a surname.
I've used my whole name in someworkplaces, because the
(08:22):
appearance of being marriedbrought more weight to the words
that I said, and the ideas thatI brought up, then the master's
degree and the years ofexperience that I had. So think
about that, right.
Kristen Daukas (08:39):
Yeah, it's, it's, and one of the things I
tried to press on my girls foryears and years and years, which
is, you're not for everybody.
And that's okay. You're notgonna like everybody,
everybody's not gonna like you.
And it's okay. Yeah, you know,just kind of move on and just,
(09:02):
nobody's gonna think about it.
After a while, that person's notthinking that much about you.
It's just like, and I thinkthat's the other thing is like,
Oh, my God, what's everybodygonna think? So I think that's
another, you know, wheel spokesin the wheel of imposter
syndrome. It's like, What'severybody gonna think? Probably
nothing, right? A lot less thanyou think. What are some right?
Do you think there? What aresome strategies that you think
(09:23):
like? I think self talk is areally big thing. But and I'm
not a scientist, and nor am I atrained psychologist, but I love
psychology. And as we weretalking in the last episode, or
in the last time that we had ourconversation, is that I don't
get impostor syndrome very much,right. But I know what my inner
(09:46):
dialogue is. And I know thethings that I say to myself, you
know, on the inside and thethings that I say on the
outside, I'm a very positive andvery self confident person. Hmm.
And I'm not saying thatimposter. Imposter syndrome is
only for people that areunconfident or insecure, but
largely they are. So in theworkplace, do we even really
(10:11):
need a division between? BecauseI would imagine somebody that's,
you know, feeling impostorsyndrome, in the workplace is
probably filling it in to otherparts of their life. Right? So
it's not just the I'm not a goodenough employee, or I'm not a
good and I can't do this. Ican't manage my team the way,
(10:34):
you know, Billy over theremanages his team, I would have
to imagine that that rolls intoat home. I'm not as good of a
mom as Sarah is. And Sarah isalways got these fun activities
with her kids and these craftsand things of that Sosa HK
comparison. Right.
Sara (10:56):
And the question, so I think the question comes, comes
to what, what is success? Who'sdefining what is good? I am not
as good as someone who set thatstandard. And is that standards
still relevant? Now? My teamworks much different than like,
(11:17):
like I said, I've, I've workedin roles that have never existed
before. What I say is, I'm verycomfortable with ambiguity.
Yeah. And making things up,right. You know, we're, we're on
a train engine, and we aredrawing the map and laying the
tracks and building the carsbehind us as we move forward.
(11:37):
Right, that kind of newposition. And so success can be
different success. We, we as adiverse group, can define what
success is and what is good. Isthis good? Is this, this event
that we put together where we'reexpecting 300 people, and we had
150. Instead, the 150 had aphenomenal time, everybody who
(12:01):
was participated in it felt likethey belonged, like they had a
voice. Is that success? Yes,that's success. Absolutely
right. And so we can redefinethose. And it can be a moving
target to that success canevolve. And we have all worked
in this high pressure, corporatecapitalistic system for so long,
(12:26):
that success is only a number oronly a metric, or only checking
off boxes, I hate people whojust check off a box for the
sake of checking off a boxwhether thinking if we spend one
more day on this have we broughtin one more piece of information
that makes this significantlybetter. And I'm not saying keep
(12:49):
pushing down deadlines andthings like that. I'm just
saying, the sake of checking offa box and saying it's done. And
that success isn't always thebest way to go. Kind of
passionate about that. No,really.
Kristen Daukas (13:03):
So you saying that made me think of something
I hadn't thought of in a while.
But for about six months betweenwhen I left the agency that I
was working for, and thepandemic I was working for Greek
company, and the purpose of thecompany, they the company in
Greece was the most the besthighest, you know, whatever, the
(13:26):
most popular Greek dairy companyin all of Europe, right. And the
man that I was working for 100%.
Great, you know, this is goingand he tried to make me feel in
a way that would have made meconjure up some impostor
(13:46):
syndrome. Right. And I was nothaving it. At that point. You
know, I was divorced. I had Idone my battles. I was in my
late 40s. It was right before.
Yeah, it was, yeah, it was thatwas in my late 40s. And I was
like, You know what? It's like,well, when I was doing this, bla
bla bla bla bla bla, and I'mlike, that's not what we're
(14:09):
doing here. You worked forBacardi. With a multibillion
dollar marketing. We areliterally in basically a
bootstrap. Yes, the main companyhas all of the money in you
know, they've got millions uponmillions and billions of
dollars. We don't we'rebasically out here bootstrapping
this effort. So and you've neverhe's, he was a traditional
(14:31):
marketer. Right. So my longwinded way of saying, that would
have been a perfect opportunityfor me to go, I don't know what
the hell I'm doing. He's right.
I have no idea what I'm doingright now. But I was able to
recognize him like we're nottalking apples to apples here,
buddy. We're talking apples andoranges. And actually, we're
probably talking apples andpears and oranges and pears,
because it's not the same thing.
So you can't compare. That'sanother going back to the
(14:54):
comparison thing. I think a lotof the impostor syndrome comes
from one people wanting tocompare? Well, that's not how I
did it. And then that makes theother person go, oh, well, if
that's not how they did it, thenthat must be not how I should do
it. And then you start trippingdown the whole rabbit hole,
Sara (15:14):
right? And it gets so tiring to when you're constantly
rebuilding and facing the oldhabits and the implicit bias
again, and again, it getstiring, and you and let's get
back to that squad thing too.
I've had I've had to have verytrusted confidence to to say, do
we keep going? I mean, how fardo we push this, especially when
(15:39):
you're working in equity andinclusion work to say like, how
much are we going to keep going?
And because it's so important,of course, we keep going. But we
at least acknowledge andvalidate that it's hard. It's
hard to make change. And thennot when it rears its ugly head
(16:01):
again, and you're excluded froma meeting about a project that's
yours. And, and then be held toa different standard. That is
not the point of the wholeproject. It's just like, Oh, it
feels like I'm back at squareone. And it's really, it's
really hard to push forward. Sogetting back to that idea of a
(16:21):
squad, who's not your friendsand family. Unless you have
friends and family who areworking in your industry who
understand the work that you doreally well. I think it's really
important to have that outsidethat outside support. And it's
funny, we talk aboutmasterminds, right, the the
(16:42):
first rule of masterminds is notto talk about masterminds. It's
something that men have alwaysdone, and different corporate
structures have always done, ifyou are in the in crowd, then
you are invited to sit at thetable at whatever event or you
are playing golf or tennis orwhatever sport it is, I had
(17:03):
worked in one place where thishandful of people would go out
to a shooting range, no joke,and come back with all of these
ideas and say, This is what'shappening. It didn't include
anybody else in the decisionmaking and wonder why people are
upset. Right? So having thatgroup of people where you can
bounce ideas off. And I thinkit's critically important if you
(17:26):
are working for yourself, orworking for a small team, or
like I have been in a positionwhere I got to work with other
organizations. So my my work wasmore external. And we created
our own little mastermind orsupport group or collegiate
whatever you want to call it. Webecame our own little workgroup.
(17:47):
While we were still connected toour main organizations, we had
our own little workgroup wherewe supported each other, and did
problem solving and all of that,and you don't have to pay when
we talk about masterminds. A lotof people think, oh, it's some
subscription thing. You can makeyour own rules and make up your
own group and find support indifferent ways. Right. So I'm in
(18:10):
a mastermind, I also have anaccountability partner, when it
comes to we, we share she's moreof an operations person, and I'm
more of a social media person.
So we share expertise back andforth. But personally, we're
trying to do some habitchanging, and we're
accountability buddies. And so Iknow that she will hold me
(18:30):
accountable if it was one of myfriends, we would just say, oh,
you know, it's 6am I'm not goingto work out. No, you can stay in
bed, you'll just say to yourfriend, no, you can stay in bed,
you have a lot going on rightnow my accountability partner
and I, we're holding each other,we're holding each other to the
promises that we make ourselvesto ourselves and to each other.
(18:52):
Right,
Kristen Daukas (18:54):
and you have to do that. So you just run me of
another situation to speaking ofthat, with the squad. So back in
1515 years ago, again, you know,I've been doing this for over 15
years, there was a group of usand you'll appreciate this,
there was a group of us women,ladies and technology that we
all met on Twitter, right soit's kind of like the former you
(19:16):
know, remember the forums, thethe chat rooms and things of
that. So that was our, and Imonikered us the broads who
tweet the BW T's right? And Idecided and I think just here
last week was the 15thanniversary. The first one was
was the BW, I call it the BW T.
Retweet instead of retreatretweet. We went away we went. I
(19:37):
rented a giant house down at thebeach down at Carolina Beach.
And there were a dozen of us. 15of us that went down there for
the weekend for Thursday,Friday. Saturday. We came home
on Sunday. And all we did isdrink coffee, sit in a circle
and And because again, socialmedia was very new at that time,
(20:01):
but nobody wanted to let peopleknow what they didn't know. And
it became a safe space, itbecame a safe space for us for
like, Sarah. Sarah could ask,like, you know, I know, I should
know this, but, you know, how doI embed a pin on a website? And
it was in, you know, if youcouldn't go to somebody else,
because we're like, well, don'tyou shouldn't you know that
(20:21):
because your bla bla bla blabla, it was the safe place to do
it. And we're like, Oh, my God,girl, let me show we got you, we
got you, we're gonna show you.
And it was, it was the mostamazing and incredible
experience. And we did aboutthree of those. And then you
know, life happens, and it justkind of tapered out. And, you
know, that's kind of like whatwe do. And it's just that place
(20:43):
where you can you have the rightpeople around you that know what
you do, and can help. And thereis no judgement here. Right?
Sara (20:54):
Right. And that can be that can be extended into
workplaces too. When we talkabout how can we make this
systemic change, at least in theworld of work? There's a lot,
there's a lot of other thingsthat have to happen community
wise and socially and culturallywise to, but in the world of
work, where knowledge is power,and people hold on to it. Right?
(21:16):
How many times have you been ina meeting, you've been waiting
for someone to give youinformation before the meeting,
as part of your presentation,and they don't you get called
out on it for a missing and thenthat person swoops in and says,
Oh, well here and delivers itand gets the gets the praise.
Typically, instead of peoplesaying, why didn't you do that
before?
Kristen Daukas (21:37):
Right? And it's not the person that failed to
give it to you, that looks likean ass. It's you. It's
Sara (21:41):
you. So. So in the workplace, when we talk about
how do we combat impostorsyndrome, when people are
feeling like they don't knowwhat they're doing, or they're
not fitting in is checking inwith them. And, and creating a
space where people feel safeenough psychological
psychologically safe enough tosay, I don't know this? And, and
(22:04):
that's where you can say, Well,I do, let me show you. I had, I
was in your position, I had afirst day or I was in a learning
curve. For every job. Everybodyisn't a learning curve for every
job. And the piece about socialmedia is that they move the damn
buttons all the time,
Kristen Daukas (22:23):
every day.
That's why people like you, andI exist, because they move it
every freaking day. Exactly. Youknow, something you said, I
don't know if it was earlier inthis segment, or the last time
that we talked, we were talkingabout longevity, loyalty, you
know, our parents in the, youknow, in the boomers, they were
they were in it for the longhaul that doesn't exist anymore.
(22:45):
And I wonder if some of this isif people aren't actually
afraid, using air quotes, afraidto come and say, Sarah, I really
don't know what's going on.
Because we are such a disposableworkforce. You know, because I
do think people are just afraidthat if they admit they don't
know, something that they'regonna get, you know, booted to
(23:05):
the curb. I mean, granted,that's worst case scenario,
right. But it's the businessenvironment right now is just so
toxic itself. That every I thinka lot of people feel that one
false move. And you're out thedoor. I mean, how many companies
do you know have any more thanactually, a have an HR
(23:28):
department be followed protocol?
There's that little sorry, ifyou're not watching, I gotta
love it. You missed that I gotsome thumbs up going on my
screen. But you gotta go toYouTube to find that. But you
see where I'm going with this?
Do you think some of that isjust that intimidation? Which, I
mean, really, what is impostorsyndrome, but being intimidated
(23:51):
over a situation? Right?
Sara (23:55):
I mean, I think it's, it is complicated. Because the
systems that are in placereplaced by people who built
them around loyalty aroundcompliance around you need to
fit into this box that we havecreated. And then expose values
(24:20):
that say, but we want you to beyourself. So no. And when you
show up as yourself, right, whenyou show up with your curly
hair, or you show up withculturally significant clothing
on or you speak a different way.
Oh, no, that's not what wewanted. Right? So of course,
people are feeling even moreinsecure, and feeling like they
(24:42):
can't be themselves at work,either. And sometimes can't be
themselves in their communities.
Right. And I think it justexacerbates the issue. On top of
Yeah, we are in a tenuousaccount. To me, and so I guess
one of my recommendations wouldbe adjust what again, that's
(25:08):
what does success look like? Isit making six figures? Or is it
making less and feeling betterabout what you do and feeling
like you can be yourself indifferent places you can speak
up, you can change the system.
And yeah, coming from someonewho's a career nonprofit, it's
easy for me to say. But yeah, Ithink the other thing is that
(25:32):
companies are going to get thebacklash of the people who keep
cutting folks, you know, youmake the smallest mistake, that
reputation as an employer isgoing to follow you there are a
lot of forums out there. Andpeople will say, I made the
tiniest mistake, and they let mego, or now with digital products
coming and going, who's going towork for a place that every five
(25:55):
years cuts 30% of its workforce?
Yeah. Right. So companies aren'treally engendering the loyalty
either. So but do they
Kristen Daukas (26:08):
care, and especially in this day, and time
where there are so manycompanies that are buying
companies up, and you know,they'll keep things status quo
for six months, and then all ofa sudden, everything's starting
to change, and they're notmaking their way? Right. So
what's left behind is collateraldamage, or the teammates that,
(26:29):
you know, came from the OGcompany. And, you know, so many
venture capitalists like, it'slike, the whole VC thing, the
whole venture capital thing,whenever they come in, start
looking for new job, like, startlooking for a new job, because
one of two things is gonnahappen. They're gonna give it
six months, do it the old way,then turn around and do it the
new way. And then everybody'sgone. That was from the original
(26:52):
company, or they're just goingto sell it either way, you're
out of a job. So it's just like,kind of harsh, but not everyone
is cut out to work forthemselves. No,
Sara (27:05):
yes. By I hate work for myself. And boy, my boss and
manager can not be easy to workwith.
Kristen Daukas (27:14):
My never gives me days off. Yeah. Well, you
Sara (27:17):
know, when we talk about corporate America and capitalist
toxic capitalism, you know,that's a whole other show. I
can't help but think that it'sgoing to eventually catch up
with you with with them. Iremember, it was a company in
North Carolina. And I heard themthey were like interviewed on
(27:39):
some new show or something Iwant to say around 2000. I think
they were called saps. It wasone of the first software's or
service companies and theyactually are called saps. And
the owner and founder of itsaid, the worst thing I can do
for my company is take itpublic. And he built I don't
know if it still exists, I don'tknow if they sold merge,
(28:01):
whatever. But the way that theybuilt that company where they
they had on site childcare, theyhad intramural sports, they had
a clinic, so like, you know,seasonal allergies, or you need
a stitch or whatever, you know,little minor things. You could
(28:22):
go there. Do you think aboutproductivity wise? No, you're
not you have your employeestaying on campus and not taking
two and a half hours of sicktime to go have their sniffles
checked out? Right. It's
Kristen Daukas (28:34):
a mutually beneficial thing. Yeah, it helps
the company and it helps the theteam members, right.
Sara (28:42):
And now I I'm based in the northeast, I think every
community in the country has ahousing issue, especially work
workforce housing. Back whencorporations and companies were
building. There were companytowns, I live in a rural state.
And the company's like theMarble Company, Vermont marble
(29:02):
is in the Supreme Court. It's inyou know, these huge estates and
all Washington Monument, allkinds of places. That company
had housing, they would bring inworkforces to learn the marble
industry and to work and wouldprovide housing and would have I
know there's one big insurancecompany in Hartford,
(29:25):
Connecticut, I, you know,they've merged, emerge, emerge
emerge with Aetna, it's nowsomething else. But they did the
same thing back in the1910s 1920s. Is that they had on
site health care, they had acafeteria, they had educational
benefits, right. So do
Kristen Daukas (29:44):
you know what the difference is? That was a
time when it was people overprofit. And now Good luck
finding any company that'sprofit. That's people over
profit. It's all pro Costco.
Unknown (29:54):
Costco, this is true.
Yeah, this
Kristen Daukas (29:57):
is 10. But I mean, okay, I shouldn't say nine
but they
Sara (30:01):
are they're smaller, they're smaller, they're
regional. They redefine success.
And they redefine what they wantfor their people and their
customers and their communitiesand their learning and they're
more progressive.
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Kristen Daukas (30:49):
And going back to what you say about what a
success look to you, I thinkthat's another conversation that
needs to be changed as asociety, right? Because think
about it. Every one is told ifnot literally than subliminally
that your value is literallylinked to your value. Right? And
it takes you a while to and Iknow there's been study upon
(31:12):
study done that it's like, Yes,that's very true. Money does
make you happier. But only to acertain point, you have to be
able to as long as you're ableto pay your living expenses,
right? And a little bit extraanything above that. There's a
threshold like as long, if youcan't pay your bills, you're
you're miserable. And money isthe only thing that's going to
(31:33):
make you happy. But once youhave all of your things taken
care of anything above that ismarginal as far as your
happiness goes. So I think thedialect and the conversations we
need to have, especially withour young people is like it's
not all about the money. Yeah,sure. I mean, it's, if you want
to make $250,000 a year, that'sfantastic. However, what are you
(31:55):
going to spend it because you'regonna you got to work the hours
to make that $250,000 orwhatever your number is, right?
So it's redefining success? Whatdoes success mean to you? For
me, it's being able to not work80 hours a week, have the
ability to only work with peoplethat I want to work with, I
don't want to you know,happiness, to me means being in
(32:17):
a position where I don't have totake a client on who I know is
going to be a nightmare clientjust because I lost one. And now
I need to pay the bills. Right.
So I know what my number is. AndI think that's really important.
I think everybody needs to knowwhat their number is. Whether
you work for yourself, orwhether you work for somebody
else, what is your number? Whatis the absolute bare minimum
that you can make in order to goback to that threshold of this
(32:39):
is this is the amount of money Ihave to make an order to pay my
mortgage, my car payment, myinsurance, my whatever? And, and
then then you know that as longas I make that, I'm okay, now
definitely make more than that.
Hey, I might be going onvacation this year.
Sara (32:58):
Right. Right. And, and savings to savings be fiscal
fiscally responsible. Yeah. Soknowing what that I also call it
the walkaway number, right? Yes.
Where what's the number it's notworth it anymore for the grave.
And getting back to the, thetheme of the show, too, is in
fighting that imposter syndrome.
(33:23):
It's like, I don't belong herefor a number of reasons. Because
it's an part of that is thatit's not fitting my definition
of what I want out of my life.
And what my why is right, whyare you here? Why are you doing
this work? And what it means toyour success to and sharing
that, again, what we weretalking about a few minutes ago
(33:43):
to knowledge is power, right?
Sharing this these kinds of tipswith people. Because pay
transparency or finances, younever talk about money. Right?
Right. Or that was a social normthat you don't talk about money.
Kristen Daukas (34:02):
And we're gonna start winding this down, but you
just said something that is soimportant. And I think it leads
into this. So you just you'retalking about doing something
that makes you happy, right? Soif you are anytime I have ever
been doing something that I ampassionate about, have you ever,
ever questioned your abilities?
Sara (34:27):
That's a really good question. Um, thinking back to
one of my most favorite jobs,and I will name that job. A lot
of times I veiled the badstories I'll veil behind. Oh,
once upon a time I did this. Butthe time that I worked in public
health, where we were all smart,capable people who had great
(34:51):
ideas and were willing to sharethem and try something we didn't
feel impostor syndrome. Nope, inthat space, no. And we, we
worked with a lot of diversecommunities, we had a lot of
voices coming to the table, wehad a lot of different
communities to serve. And wethought beyond what had been
(35:18):
done to what could be possible.
And maybe that that is one ofthose secret sauces. I
Kristen Daukas (35:27):
just thought of that. Yeah, so the old saying,
of find a job that or dosomething that you love, and
you'll never work a day in yourlife. Maybe as we take an exit
on this. Find a job that youlove, find something you'd love
to do, and you'll never haveimpostor syndrome.
Sara (35:43):
Yep. And I want to add something to this to just the
whole piece about lifting eachother up, whoever that each
other is in your life. And Iwould say open the door to
people who don't look like youopen the door to people who have
never been in the places whereyou have been to, is to remember
(36:05):
that by doing that. It doesn'tdiminish your place either.
I've, I've read and I've heardeverybody quote this, you know,
by lighting someone else'scandle, it doesn't diminish
mine. Sad right?
Kristen Daukas (36:19):
Now you got two candles burning and it's twice
as bright. Exactly. Sarah, thishas been such a great
conversation. And anyone thatknows us know that we could
continue going on and on and onand on and on and on and on and
on. So I guarantee you guys,Sarah will be back and we'll
have plenty more to talk about.
So until the next time friends.
(36:40):
Lift your glasses high and yourspirits higher. Take care
everybody. See you next time. Asthe saying goes, you don't have
to go home but you can't stayhere and that's a wrap for this
week's episode. A big thanks tomy guests for sharing their
story and to you for listening.
Don't forget to share the showwith your friends and spread the
words and if you'd like to be aguest on the show, the link is
in the show notes till next timecheers
Welcome to Conversations on the rocks. The
podcast where the drink isstrong and the stories are
stronger. I'm your host, KristenDaukas. And this isn't your
average chat best. Here realpeople spill the tea alongside
their favorite drinks from thehilarious to the heart wrenching
each episode a wildcard. You'lllaugh, you may cry, but you'll
definitely learn something new.
So grab whatever whet yourwhistle and buckle up, it's time
(00:28):
to dive into the raw, the realand the ridiculously human.
Let's get this chat partystarted. Hey, everybody, it's
Kristin Okis. You are tuned into conversations on the rocks.
The show that is as random asme, but trying to stay specific.
I again have my friend SarahMonroe joining me. And if you
(00:53):
listened in whenever she washere the first time I'll make
sure I put her first episodeabout impostor syndrome in the
show notes for this one. She'sup in northern New England. And
by now I'm going to say there'sdaisies. We're going to pretend
there's daisies everywhere andDaffodil and right, tulips. So
Sarah has got a ton ofexperience in a lot of fields,
(01:16):
from fundraising and PR todigital media, and even a
molecular biologist fancy. Sarahis now working with small
business developments and genderequality organizations. And Tara
cheers again.
Unknown (01:34):
Cheers, cheers. Here's my ELSS my ice is almost gone.
But it's still cool.
Kristen Daukas (01:40):
So, Sarah, when we talked in our first
conversation, we just kind ofdid a, if you will impostor
syndrome 101. And there was somegreat content, I encourage you
if you have not listened to it,to go back and listen to it.
Because it looks very similar.
But it looks very different to alot of people. And one of the
things that I wanted to bringyou back on to talk about is how
(02:02):
we can help. How can we helpourselves? How can we help our
friends? How can we help ourcolleagues who might be
suffering from impostorsyndrome? So let's talk a little
bit about mentorship andcommunity support. And, you
know, if you've got someexamples of things that have
worked, other than, you know, wehave conversations, I think it's
(02:24):
pretty easy to pick out. I'mgoing to sum it up retract, I
was curious, I think it's prettyeasy to pick out somebody who's
suffering from impostorsyndrome. But I think as women,
we are so good at pushing thingsdown, and faking it till we make
it. And I think one of thethings that would be
(02:44):
advantageous to all women is forall of us to open our mouths and
talk about it and say, Okay, Iknow that I'm really good at
what I do. And I know I've hadthis conversation with you, with
you ladies in our mastermindgroup. It's like, I know what
I'm doing. Why am I strugglingwith this? Why? What is my
mental block? What is it? Sowhat are some things that we can
(03:06):
do to, you know, help oursisterhood with this?
Sara (03:12):
Right, right? Well, we, in the last episode, we left, we
left off talking about a squathaving a squad around you. And
that's one piece you hadmentioned to me at one point,
some of the discussion groupsabout podcasts where people are
saying none of my friends andfamily are commenting. We say
(03:34):
this as social media managers,our internal staff aren't
sharing our posts aren'tcommenting on our posts to help
amplify us. And when we thinkabout a squad, when we think
about support, it's not thoseclosest and around to us, right?
It's not our friends and familybecause often, they don't
understand they know us in adifferent light. They knew us as
(03:57):
children, or they knew us whenwe were still figuring things
out, or we were students orwhatever it was, or they just
don't understand, or they don'tcare do they don't care. They
care about us daily. Yeah, theycare about us
Kristen Daukas (04:12):
as humans, but you know, it's, you know,
they're like, Okay, that'sgreat. Right?
Sara (04:17):
And so, here's, here's something when we talk about
imposter syndrome or imposterphenomenon, whatever we want to
call it, right? The not fittingin, it's because especially
people who are breaking in whoare the first or who are the
first to represent whateveridentity it is that they're
(04:38):
bringing to the table. They'renot feeling like they fit in
because they don't fit in thatsomeone hasn't been there. And
we can feel it too if you're ina new position. I've been in
positions that were brand new tothe organizations that I've been
a part of, and so I didn't fitin because I didn't fit in
(04:59):
there. hadn't finished. So Ineeded to build that structure
around me, I had to ask, in manycases, I had to be bold enough,
it's really easy for me with,you know, the experience that I
have to call out exclusionarypractices, and I've had a lot of
training in it to do it, I stillget really nervous when I have
(05:20):
to do it. Sure.
Kristen Daukas (05:21):
Nobody likes to buck the system on No, we love
to buck the system. But we don'twant to. I just don't think
really it's in any of our DNA.
Or, for the most part, it's notin most of our DNA. We everybody
wants things to go smoothly,right? And at the end of the
day, everybody wants to beliked, right?
Sara (05:41):
Yes. And I would say and accepted and accepted. Yet, I
think there's a different thecultural shift. In the
workplace, especially we'retalking about the workplace
right now, the cultural shiftthat has happened, thanks to Gen
(06:01):
X, millennials, Gen Z, cominginto leadership positions, or
rising through or just our sheernumbers now that we don't see
work as the end all be all, asit was, and especially after the
last four years. And how manyrecessions have we lived
through? This point, right?
Yeah, exactly. Your work is notloyal to you. And so making sure
(06:26):
that sometimes you to protectyourself, it's not your value,
your worth is not in peopleliking you 100% of the time at
work. And that's a hardrealization to come to, and a
hard cultural shift, given theexpectations of most of the
leadership that's out there thatare still older. That yes, you
(06:49):
we want you to be team players,we want you this way we want we
want you to speak up, we wantyou to be yourself. As long as
you're the self that we want. Wewe want that we see you as and
that's where that not fitting inthat imposter syndrome. am I
faking it? Sometimes people arefaking it and an n a knowledge
(07:12):
base, but a lot of times they'refaking it personally, right?
They're hiding so many parts ofthemselves that contribute even
more to not feeling like you'relike you belong, right? You and
I have naturally curly hair,right? Yeah, I've straightened
it many times to fit in, andworkplaces, or what's expected
(07:34):
of me or there's a big event andcurly hair is not professional.
Right.
Kristen Daukas (07:43):
And I think a lot of our women of color,
understand that they're peopleof color, not just women. I
mean, who, but yeah, I'm on theflip side of that. I love my
curls. And thank you menopause.
I've lost them. So now I'mhaving to straighten my hair
out. And I hate it because Iliked my curls. But yeah, what
up?
Sara (08:01):
Well, there's, there's lots of things. Yes, certainly,
people would much diversebackgrounds than we have the
fitting in. But it comes some ofmy personal experiences have
been, I've used my middle name,my middle name is a surname.
I've used my whole name in someworkplaces, because the
(08:22):
appearance of being marriedbrought more weight to the words
that I said, and the ideas thatI brought up, then the master's
degree and the years ofexperience that I had. So think
about that, right.
Kristen Daukas (08:39):
Yeah, it's, it's, and one of the things I
tried to press on my girls foryears and years and years, which
is, you're not for everybody.
And that's okay. You're notgonna like everybody,
everybody's not gonna like you.
And it's okay. Yeah, you know,just kind of move on and just,
(09:02):
nobody's gonna think about it.
After a while, that person's notthinking that much about you.
It's just like, and I thinkthat's the other thing is like,
Oh, my God, what's everybodygonna think? So I think that's
another, you know, wheel spokesin the wheel of imposter
syndrome. It's like, What'severybody gonna think? Probably
nothing, right? A lot less thanyou think. What are some right?
Do you think there? What aresome strategies that you think
(09:23):
like? I think self talk is areally big thing. But and I'm
not a scientist, and nor am I atrained psychologist, but I love
psychology. And as we weretalking in the last episode, or
in the last time that we had ourconversation, is that I don't
get impostor syndrome very much,right. But I know what my inner
(09:46):
dialogue is. And I know thethings that I say to myself, you
know, on the inside and thethings that I say on the
outside, I'm a very positive andvery self confident person. Hmm.
And I'm not saying thatimposter. Imposter syndrome is
only for people that areunconfident or insecure, but
largely they are. So in theworkplace, do we even really
(10:11):
need a division between? BecauseI would imagine somebody that's,
you know, feeling impostorsyndrome, in the workplace is
probably filling it in to otherparts of their life. Right? So
it's not just the I'm not a goodenough employee, or I'm not a
good and I can't do this. Ican't manage my team the way,
(10:34):
you know, Billy over theremanages his team, I would have
to imagine that that rolls intoat home. I'm not as good of a
mom as Sarah is. And Sarah isalways got these fun activities
with her kids and these craftsand things of that Sosa HK
comparison. Right.
Sara (10:56):
And the question, so I think the question comes, comes
to what, what is success? Who'sdefining what is good? I am not
as good as someone who set thatstandard. And is that standards
still relevant? Now? My teamworks much different than like,
(11:17):
like I said, I've, I've workedin roles that have never existed
before. What I say is, I'm verycomfortable with ambiguity.
Yeah. And making things up,right. You know, we're, we're on
a train engine, and we aredrawing the map and laying the
tracks and building the carsbehind us as we move forward.
(11:37):
Right, that kind of newposition. And so success can be
different success. We, we as adiverse group, can define what
success is and what is good. Isthis good? Is this, this event
that we put together where we'reexpecting 300 people, and we had
150. Instead, the 150 had aphenomenal time, everybody who
(12:01):
was participated in it felt likethey belonged, like they had a
voice. Is that success? Yes,that's success. Absolutely
right. And so we can redefinethose. And it can be a moving
target to that success canevolve. And we have all worked
in this high pressure, corporatecapitalistic system for so long,
(12:26):
that success is only a number oronly a metric, or only checking
off boxes, I hate people whojust check off a box for the
sake of checking off a boxwhether thinking if we spend one
more day on this have we broughtin one more piece of information
that makes this significantlybetter. And I'm not saying keep
(12:49):
pushing down deadlines andthings like that. I'm just
saying, the sake of checking offa box and saying it's done. And
that success isn't always thebest way to go. Kind of
passionate about that. No,really.
Kristen Daukas (13:03):
So you saying that made me think of something
I hadn't thought of in a while.
But for about six months betweenwhen I left the agency that I
was working for, and thepandemic I was working for Greek
company, and the purpose of thecompany, they the company in
Greece was the most the besthighest, you know, whatever, the
(13:26):
most popular Greek dairy companyin all of Europe, right. And the
man that I was working for 100%.
Great, you know, this is goingand he tried to make me feel in
a way that would have made meconjure up some impostor
(13:46):
syndrome. Right. And I was nothaving it. At that point. You
know, I was divorced. I had Idone my battles. I was in my
late 40s. It was right before.
Yeah, it was, yeah, it was thatwas in my late 40s. And I was
like, You know what? It's like,well, when I was doing this, bla
bla bla bla bla bla, and I'mlike, that's not what we're
(14:09):
doing here. You worked forBacardi. With a multibillion
dollar marketing. We areliterally in basically a
bootstrap. Yes, the main companyhas all of the money in you
know, they've got millions uponmillions and billions of
dollars. We don't we'rebasically out here bootstrapping
this effort. So and you've neverhe's, he was a traditional
(14:31):
marketer. Right. So my longwinded way of saying, that would
have been a perfect opportunityfor me to go, I don't know what
the hell I'm doing. He's right.
I have no idea what I'm doingright now. But I was able to
recognize him like we're nottalking apples to apples here,
buddy. We're talking apples andoranges. And actually, we're
probably talking apples andpears and oranges and pears,
because it's not the same thing.
So you can't compare. That'sanother going back to the
(14:54):
comparison thing. I think a lotof the impostor syndrome comes
from one people wanting tocompare? Well, that's not how I
did it. And then that makes theother person go, oh, well, if
that's not how they did it, thenthat must be not how I should do
it. And then you start trippingdown the whole rabbit hole,
Sara (15:14):
right? And it gets so tiring to when you're constantly
rebuilding and facing the oldhabits and the implicit bias
again, and again, it getstiring, and you and let's get
back to that squad thing too.
I've had I've had to have verytrusted confidence to to say, do
we keep going? I mean, how fardo we push this, especially when
(15:39):
you're working in equity andinclusion work to say like, how
much are we going to keep going?
And because it's so important,of course, we keep going. But we
at least acknowledge andvalidate that it's hard. It's
hard to make change. And thennot when it rears its ugly head
(16:01):
again, and you're excluded froma meeting about a project that's
yours. And, and then be held toa different standard. That is
not the point of the wholeproject. It's just like, Oh, it
feels like I'm back at squareone. And it's really, it's
really hard to push forward. Sogetting back to that idea of a
(16:21):
squad, who's not your friendsand family. Unless you have
friends and family who areworking in your industry who
understand the work that you doreally well. I think it's really
important to have that outsidethat outside support. And it's
funny, we talk aboutmasterminds, right, the the
(16:42):
first rule of masterminds is notto talk about masterminds. It's
something that men have alwaysdone, and different corporate
structures have always done, ifyou are in the in crowd, then
you are invited to sit at thetable at whatever event or you
are playing golf or tennis orwhatever sport it is, I had
(17:03):
worked in one place where thishandful of people would go out
to a shooting range, no joke,and come back with all of these
ideas and say, This is what'shappening. It didn't include
anybody else in the decisionmaking and wonder why people are
upset. Right? So having thatgroup of people where you can
bounce ideas off. And I thinkit's critically important if you
(17:26):
are working for yourself, orworking for a small team, or
like I have been in a positionwhere I got to work with other
organizations. So my my work wasmore external. And we created
our own little mastermind orsupport group or collegiate
whatever you want to call it. Webecame our own little workgroup.
(17:47):
While we were still connected toour main organizations, we had
our own little workgroup wherewe supported each other, and did
problem solving and all of that,and you don't have to pay when
we talk about masterminds. A lotof people think, oh, it's some
subscription thing. You can makeyour own rules and make up your
own group and find support indifferent ways. Right. So I'm in
(18:10):
a mastermind, I also have anaccountability partner, when it
comes to we, we share she's moreof an operations person, and I'm
more of a social media person.
So we share expertise back andforth. But personally, we're
trying to do some habitchanging, and we're
accountability buddies. And so Iknow that she will hold me
(18:30):
accountable if it was one of myfriends, we would just say, oh,
you know, it's 6am I'm not goingto work out. No, you can stay in
bed, you'll just say to yourfriend, no, you can stay in bed,
you have a lot going on rightnow my accountability partner
and I, we're holding each other,we're holding each other to the
promises that we make ourselvesto ourselves and to each other.
(18:52):
Right,
Kristen Daukas (18:54):
and you have to do that. So you just run me of
another situation to speaking ofthat, with the squad. So back in
1515 years ago, again, you know,I've been doing this for over 15
years, there was a group of usand you'll appreciate this,
there was a group of us women,ladies and technology that we
all met on Twitter, right soit's kind of like the former you
(19:16):
know, remember the forums, thethe chat rooms and things of
that. So that was our, and Imonikered us the broads who
tweet the BW T's right? And Idecided and I think just here
last week was the 15thanniversary. The first one was
was the BW, I call it the BW T.
Retweet instead of retreatretweet. We went away we went. I
(19:37):
rented a giant house down at thebeach down at Carolina Beach.
And there were a dozen of us. 15of us that went down there for
the weekend for Thursday,Friday. Saturday. We came home
on Sunday. And all we did isdrink coffee, sit in a circle
and And because again, socialmedia was very new at that time,
(20:01):
but nobody wanted to let peopleknow what they didn't know. And
it became a safe space, itbecame a safe space for us for
like, Sarah. Sarah could ask,like, you know, I know, I should
know this, but, you know, how doI embed a pin on a website? And
it was in, you know, if youcouldn't go to somebody else,
because we're like, well, don'tyou shouldn't you know that
(20:21):
because your bla bla bla blabla, it was the safe place to do
it. And we're like, Oh, my God,girl, let me show we got you, we
got you, we're gonna show you.
And it was, it was the mostamazing and incredible
experience. And we did aboutthree of those. And then you
know, life happens, and it justkind of tapered out. And, you
know, that's kind of like whatwe do. And it's just that place
(20:43):
where you can you have the rightpeople around you that know what
you do, and can help. And thereis no judgement here. Right?
Sara (20:54):
Right. And that can be that can be extended into
workplaces too. When we talkabout how can we make this
systemic change, at least in theworld of work? There's a lot,
there's a lot of other thingsthat have to happen community
wise and socially and culturallywise to, but in the world of
work, where knowledge is power,and people hold on to it. Right?
(21:16):
How many times have you been ina meeting, you've been waiting
for someone to give youinformation before the meeting,
as part of your presentation,and they don't you get called
out on it for a missing and thenthat person swoops in and says,
Oh, well here and delivers itand gets the gets the praise.
Typically, instead of peoplesaying, why didn't you do that
before?
Kristen Daukas (21:37):
Right? And it's not the person that failed to
give it to you, that looks likean ass. It's you. It's
Sara (21:41):
you. So. So in the workplace, when we talk about
how do we combat impostorsyndrome, when people are
feeling like they don't knowwhat they're doing, or they're
not fitting in is checking inwith them. And, and creating a
space where people feel safeenough psychological
psychologically safe enough tosay, I don't know this? And, and
(22:04):
that's where you can say, Well,I do, let me show you. I had, I
was in your position, I had afirst day or I was in a learning
curve. For every job. Everybodyisn't a learning curve for every
job. And the piece about socialmedia is that they move the damn
buttons all the time,
Kristen Daukas (22:23):
every day.
That's why people like you, andI exist, because they move it
every freaking day. Exactly. Youknow, something you said, I
don't know if it was earlier inthis segment, or the last time
that we talked, we were talkingabout longevity, loyalty, you
know, our parents in the, youknow, in the boomers, they were
they were in it for the longhaul that doesn't exist anymore.
(22:45):
And I wonder if some of this isif people aren't actually
afraid, using air quotes, afraidto come and say, Sarah, I really
don't know what's going on.
Because we are such a disposableworkforce. You know, because I
do think people are just afraidthat if they admit they don't
know, something that they'regonna get, you know, booted to
(23:05):
the curb. I mean, granted,that's worst case scenario,
right. But it's the businessenvironment right now is just so
toxic itself. That every I thinka lot of people feel that one
false move. And you're out thedoor. I mean, how many companies
do you know have any more thanactually, a have an HR
(23:28):
department be followed protocol?
There's that little sorry, ifyou're not watching, I gotta
love it. You missed that I gotsome thumbs up going on my
screen. But you gotta go toYouTube to find that. But you
see where I'm going with this?
Do you think some of that isjust that intimidation? Which, I
mean, really, what is impostorsyndrome, but being intimidated
(23:51):
over a situation? Right?
Sara (23:55):
I mean, I think it's, it is complicated. Because the
systems that are in placereplaced by people who built
them around loyalty aroundcompliance around you need to
fit into this box that we havecreated. And then expose values
(24:20):
that say, but we want you to beyourself. So no. And when you
show up as yourself, right, whenyou show up with your curly
hair, or you show up withculturally significant clothing
on or you speak a different way.
Oh, no, that's not what wewanted. Right? So of course,
people are feeling even moreinsecure, and feeling like they
(24:42):
can't be themselves at work,either. And sometimes can't be
themselves in their communities.
Right. And I think it justexacerbates the issue. On top of
Yeah, we are in a tenuousaccount. To me, and so I guess
one of my recommendations wouldbe adjust what again, that's
(25:08):
what does success look like? Isit making six figures? Or is it
making less and feeling betterabout what you do and feeling
like you can be yourself indifferent places you can speak
up, you can change the system.
And yeah, coming from someonewho's a career nonprofit, it's
easy for me to say. But yeah, Ithink the other thing is that
(25:32):
companies are going to get thebacklash of the people who keep
cutting folks, you know, youmake the smallest mistake, that
reputation as an employer isgoing to follow you there are a
lot of forums out there. Andpeople will say, I made the
tiniest mistake, and they let mego, or now with digital products
coming and going, who's going towork for a place that every five
(25:55):
years cuts 30% of its workforce?
Yeah. Right. So companies aren'treally engendering the loyalty
either. So but do they
Kristen Daukas (26:08):
care, and especially in this day, and time
where there are so manycompanies that are buying
companies up, and you know,they'll keep things status quo
for six months, and then all ofa sudden, everything's starting
to change, and they're notmaking their way? Right. So
what's left behind is collateraldamage, or the teammates that,
(26:29):
you know, came from the OGcompany. And, you know, so many
venture capitalists like, it'slike, the whole VC thing, the
whole venture capital thing,whenever they come in, start
looking for new job, like, startlooking for a new job, because
one of two things is gonnahappen. They're gonna give it
six months, do it the old way,then turn around and do it the
new way. And then everybody'sgone. That was from the original
(26:52):
company, or they're just goingto sell it either way, you're
out of a job. So it's just like,kind of harsh, but not everyone
is cut out to work forthemselves. No,
Sara (27:05):
yes. By I hate work for myself. And boy, my boss and
manager can not be easy to workwith.
Kristen Daukas (27:14):
My never gives me days off. Yeah. Well, you
Sara (27:17):
know, when we talk about corporate America and capitalist
toxic capitalism, you know,that's a whole other show. I
can't help but think that it'sgoing to eventually catch up
with you with with them. Iremember, it was a company in
North Carolina. And I heard themthey were like interviewed on
(27:39):
some new show or something Iwant to say around 2000. I think
they were called saps. It wasone of the first software's or
service companies and theyactually are called saps. And
the owner and founder of itsaid, the worst thing I can do
for my company is take itpublic. And he built I don't
know if it still exists, I don'tknow if they sold merge,
(28:01):
whatever. But the way that theybuilt that company where they
they had on site childcare, theyhad intramural sports, they had
a clinic, so like, you know,seasonal allergies, or you need
a stitch or whatever, you know,little minor things. You could
(28:22):
go there. Do you think aboutproductivity wise? No, you're
not you have your employeestaying on campus and not taking
two and a half hours of sicktime to go have their sniffles
checked out? Right. It's
Kristen Daukas (28:34):
a mutually beneficial thing. Yeah, it helps
the company and it helps the theteam members, right.
Sara (28:42):
And now I I'm based in the northeast, I think every
community in the country has ahousing issue, especially work
workforce housing. Back whencorporations and companies were
building. There were companytowns, I live in a rural state.
And the company's like theMarble Company, Vermont marble
(29:02):
is in the Supreme Court. It's inyou know, these huge estates and
all Washington Monument, allkinds of places. That company
had housing, they would bring inworkforces to learn the marble
industry and to work and wouldprovide housing and would have I
know there's one big insurancecompany in Hartford,
(29:25):
Connecticut, I, you know,they've merged, emerge, emerge
emerge with Aetna, it's nowsomething else. But they did the
same thing back in the1910s 1920s. Is that they had on
site health care, they had acafeteria, they had educational
benefits, right. So do
Kristen Daukas (29:44):
you know what the difference is? That was a
time when it was people overprofit. And now Good luck
finding any company that'sprofit. That's people over
profit. It's all pro Costco.
Unknown (29:54):
Costco, this is true.
Yeah, this
Kristen Daukas (29:57):
is 10. But I mean, okay, I shouldn't say nine
but they
Sara (30:01):
are they're smaller, they're smaller, they're
regional. They redefine success.
And they redefine what they wantfor their people and their
customers and their communitiesand their learning and they're
more progressive.
Unknown (30:21):
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Kristen Daukas (30:49):
And going back to what you say about what a
success look to you, I thinkthat's another conversation that
needs to be changed as asociety, right? Because think
about it. Every one is told ifnot literally than subliminally
that your value is literallylinked to your value. Right? And
it takes you a while to and Iknow there's been study upon
(31:12):
study done that it's like, Yes,that's very true. Money does
make you happier. But only to acertain point, you have to be
able to as long as you're ableto pay your living expenses,
right? And a little bit extraanything above that. There's a
threshold like as long, if youcan't pay your bills, you're
you're miserable. And money isthe only thing that's going to
(31:33):
make you happy. But once youhave all of your things taken
care of anything above that ismarginal as far as your
happiness goes. So I think thedialect and the conversations we
need to have, especially withour young people is like it's
not all about the money. Yeah,sure. I mean, it's, if you want
to make $250,000 a year, that'sfantastic. However, what are you
(31:55):
going to spend it because you'regonna you got to work the hours
to make that $250,000 orwhatever your number is, right?
So it's redefining success? Whatdoes success mean to you? For
me, it's being able to not work80 hours a week, have the
ability to only work with peoplethat I want to work with, I
don't want to you know,happiness, to me means being in
(32:17):
a position where I don't have totake a client on who I know is
going to be a nightmare clientjust because I lost one. And now
I need to pay the bills. Right.
So I know what my number is. AndI think that's really important.
I think everybody needs to knowwhat their number is. Whether
you work for yourself, orwhether you work for somebody
else, what is your number? Whatis the absolute bare minimum
that you can make in order to goback to that threshold of this
(32:39):
is this is the amount of money Ihave to make an order to pay my
mortgage, my car payment, myinsurance, my whatever? And, and
then then you know that as longas I make that, I'm okay, now
definitely make more than that.
Hey, I might be going onvacation this year.
Sara (32:58):
Right. Right. And, and savings to savings be fiscal
fiscally responsible. Yeah. Soknowing what that I also call it
the walkaway number, right? Yes.
Where what's the number it's notworth it anymore for the grave.
And getting back to the, thetheme of the show, too, is in
fighting that imposter syndrome.
(33:23):
It's like, I don't belong herefor a number of reasons. Because
it's an part of that is thatit's not fitting my definition
of what I want out of my life.
And what my why is right, whyare you here? Why are you doing
this work? And what it means toyour success to and sharing
that, again, what we weretalking about a few minutes ago
(33:43):
to knowledge is power, right?
Sharing this these kinds of tipswith people. Because pay
transparency or finances, younever talk about money. Right?
Right. Or that was a social normthat you don't talk about money.
Kristen Daukas (34:02):
And we're gonna start winding this down, but you
just said something that is soimportant. And I think it leads
into this. So you just you'retalking about doing something
that makes you happy, right? Soif you are anytime I have ever
been doing something that I ampassionate about, have you ever,
ever questioned your abilities?
Sara (34:27):
That's a really good question. Um, thinking back to
one of my most favorite jobs,and I will name that job. A lot
of times I veiled the badstories I'll veil behind. Oh,
once upon a time I did this. Butthe time that I worked in public
health, where we were all smart,capable people who had great
(34:51):
ideas and were willing to sharethem and try something we didn't
feel impostor syndrome. Nope, inthat space, no. And we, we
worked with a lot of diversecommunities, we had a lot of
voices coming to the table, wehad a lot of different
communities to serve. And wethought beyond what had been
(35:18):
done to what could be possible.
And maybe that that is one ofthose secret sauces. I
Kristen Daukas (35:27):
just thought of that. Yeah, so the old saying,
of find a job that or dosomething that you love, and
you'll never work a day in yourlife. Maybe as we take an exit
on this. Find a job that youlove, find something you'd love
to do, and you'll never haveimpostor syndrome.
Sara (35:43):
Yep. And I want to add something to this to just the
whole piece about lifting eachother up, whoever that each
other is in your life. And Iwould say open the door to
people who don't look like youopen the door to people who have
never been in the places whereyou have been to, is to remember
(36:05):
that by doing that. It doesn'tdiminish your place either.
I've, I've read and I've heardeverybody quote this, you know,
by lighting someone else'scandle, it doesn't diminish
mine. Sad right?
Kristen Daukas (36:19):
Now you got two candles burning and it's twice
as bright. Exactly. Sarah, thishas been such a great
conversation. And anyone thatknows us know that we could
continue going on and on and onand on and on and on and on and
on. So I guarantee you guys,Sarah will be back and we'll
have plenty more to talk about.
So until the next time friends.
(36:40):
Lift your glasses high and yourspirits higher. Take care
everybody. See you next time. Asthe saying goes, you don't have
to go home but you can't stayhere and that's a wrap for this
week's episode. A big thanks tomy guests for sharing their
story and to you for listening.
Don't forget to share the showwith your friends and spread the
words and if you'd like to be aguest on the show, the link is
in the show notes till next timecheers
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