EP415: Alison Perry Sower - Change Starts With One Spark - Conversations with Kris

Episode Transcript
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(00:11):
I am positively Chris Pace and you are actively listening to
conversation with Chris. Hey everyone, what's up?
It's Chris. I am back.
By the way, today I have a new guest and this guest is very
special to me. She's somebody who is delivered
to me by another person who's also very special to me, doesn't
know yet, but they are. And I wanted to let you guys
know. First of all, if you check out

(00:32):
my hat, I'm wearing this today because I am on the Afterburner
podcast by Wiz Matt Buckley. So if you want to check out that
episode of he and I talking, it's available now on Spotify
and you can go check it out today.
But most importantly, we have a guest, Allison Perry Sauer,
who's got a mad experience in the VA and with five O 1C threes

(00:53):
and even has a book coming out shortly.
So I'm going to let her sum up her story and then we're going
to break it down for you guys soyou can hear all the amazingness
of Allison. Allison, how are you?
I'm awesome. I'm awesome.
Chris, thank you so much for having me on the show.
It's an honor. I'm excited about your work and
excited to share a little bit about my journey.

(01:15):
I guess I'm going to start with what I would call the Seminole
event in my life and this what was the Seminole event in many
people's lives, including many veterans, which was 911.
So I I grew up in Georgia originally I was there till I
was 28 years old. Decided to get out of the South
and go see the world and move toOregon in 2000 and lived there

(01:39):
for a year and started Graduate School one month to the day
after 911. So October 11th, 2001.
Brother Todd had been serving inthe military about 5 or 6 years.
His dream was to fly Blackhawks and humanitarian aid missions to
Latin America and a year before 9/11 he was reassigned to

(02:00):
Apaches. So Todd ended up deploying for
the invasion of Iraq, flying gunships.
Wow. So my brother and I are very
close. We're 13 months apart.
You see, I put my hand on my heart when I talk about him
because we were kind of battle buddies in our own family
growing up. We have a really rich history of

(02:22):
trauma in our own family. So anyway, Todd deployed Iraq
and I was on target after Graduate School to become a
therapist in private practice. But I after my experience with
him being gone and decided I wanted to work with veterans and
their families. And so I ended up cold calling

(02:42):
the VA in Portland, OR and I called three times.
Finally got a call back and the woman who hired me said we have
a wait list. This was 2005, not only of Iraq
and Afghanistan veterans, but Vietnam vets coming into the VA
for the first time ever. So started out in the VA 2005

(03:05):
part time contract and ended up working my way into the system.
I was in the VA system for six years, worked at the big Medical
Center for three years. I was on the PTSD clinical team,
did individual work, couples work, family work.
And you know, Chris, when you'rein the VA, it's, it's
interesting. You see, I mean, the, the

(03:26):
veteran population, as you know,is really a subset of the
general population. I think a lot of people tend to
stereotype or think that there'sone type of veteran and it's,
it's, it's really extremely diverse, not only in age, but
the eras that people served in the operations that people
served in the branches, the different cultures of each

(03:46):
branch. And you and, and not to mention
the, the myriad types of trauma that exist.
You know, we tend to think firstof combat, then we might think
of sexual assault, but there aretraining injuries, there are
administrative trauma. You know, abuse of power takes

(04:08):
place right in any kind of a system like that.
So there's just so many traumatic brain injury, right?
So there's just so many different types of traumas.
So you get exposed to that. And then for me, I transferred
from the Portland VA to the BendVA clinic.
So that's a Sibak, a community based outpatient clinic.
It's a more rural clinic. But but what was really another

(04:30):
Seminole event for me was right before I transferred, I had a
young man, a young veteran, 22 years old, had served in Iraq,
came home from Iraq, was druggedand sexually assaulted by his
combat buddy at a party, and wasalso exhibiting his first
symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia.
This was a veteran who was tenuous with the VA system.

(04:52):
He was in and out. You know, this is someone who is
deeply traumatized. And the system wasn't really
reaching him. Somehow he ended up in my lap,
ended up connecting with him. You know, he, I say, kid, he was
like working, working with a kid'cause he was so traumatized.
He was like working with a teenager, you know, But I

(05:13):
connected with him. And that's what it takes, you
know, as you know, you have to have that human connection in
any setting with anything you'redoing.
And especially with therapy. If you don't have that, it
doesn't work. So really connected with this
kid and, and, and was really doing everything to help him and
got a call one day that he endedup in the psych ward lockdown

(05:35):
unit and that he was throwing furniture and threatening staff.
And I looked at a colleague and I said, I wish we had a sheep
ranch out east where we could send these guys where they could
work on the land, sleep under the stars and be in a community
of other veterans. And so I'll pause here in a

(05:56):
minute. But that's, that's, that's
really what kick started the, the, the journey of starting a
nonprofit of leaving the VA in 2012.
Right before I left, I got trained as a contracting officer
representative and took a few more steps to get some more
experience before starting the Central Oregon Veterans Ranch,
which is currently in its 10th year of operation.

(06:18):
So, yeah, so in summary, you know, and, and, and we can dig
into the details a little bit more, but in summary, I think
it's, you know, definitely that personal impact of having a
family member impacted by war. Brother stayed in the military,
came home from that first deployment, said he didn't want
that mission anymore, didn't want to be flying Apaches, got

(06:40):
the medevac assignment, did two more tours.
And my brother's about to medically retire from the Army
after 27 years. So it's been a it's been a
journey. It's been a journey.
Well, to see and to hear you saythat you've been on both sides,
you know, being on the side of the VA, which, you know, I do
believe they have the best intentions and they want to,
they are put in by certain guidelines and rules and these

(07:04):
types of things which have them,their hands are tied as far as a
lot of people are concerned. And so then, as you said, this
poor guy, I mean, there's so many different types of trauma
and you kind of hit on exactly what I've been dealing with,
with my own family. You know, they saw me going to
the Air Force and be a part of one of the most intelligent jobs
you could possibly have as a female calibrations expert.

(07:26):
But they don't see my service asservice because it wasn't combat
related and they don't understand that my, my, my TBI
that happened. What's happened during a
training exercise that was for the idea of going to combat.
And so many other veterans are injured during training
exercises or just through psychological warfare, that kind

(07:48):
of thing that happens that we don't really get enough
attention on that because, you know, there's so many different
feelings that come from it. Did I really contribute my best
and did I 'cause somebody else to lose their life because I
wasn't able to go ahead and follow through my mind role?
And so the understanding that you saw that, recognize that,
and I sected it down to what youjust said was perfect.

(08:08):
And I would love to hear more about your theory on why we are
not as accredited, I guess, as people who just come from war
and actually have more related issues, you know?
Yeah, I think, Chris, it comes down to people having a core
understanding of what trauma actually is and how trauma
happens. And one definition of trauma is

(08:32):
anything that overwhelms your ability to cope.
Now, some, you know, some peoplewill say there's little T
trauma, there's big T trauma. And if you look at it, every
human being has experienced sometype of trauma, right.
When you're a little child or, you know, when you're an adult
and you experience a loss or a traumatic accident or a death.
I mean, it's just trauma is anything that overwhelms your

(08:55):
ability to cope, it floods your system.
The, the Organism of our humanity is overwhelmed and we
don't know how to respond in theminute.
Also, I think something that's important for people to realize,
and this has to do with both serving in the military and with
the VA, both of those are institutions, right?
And the military is a hierarchical institution.

(09:18):
So you see this in hierarchical institutions, including prisons,
including churches. Wherever there's a power
structure, there is the potential for the abuse of
power. And we would all like to think
the best of our fellow humans. But as we know, there are a

(09:39):
variety of humans and and they're not always humans of
integrity. And so abuse of power is a big
thing I saw in in the military. And then also just the idea,
Chris, that when you sign that dotted line, your life is no
longer your own. You have no control over what
the military decides to do with you.

(10:00):
So that in and of itself, I mean, This is why it happens.
I'm really interested in the deep layers of, of someone's
soul, of their psychology, of, of their sense of agency, their
sense of autonomy. And I think, you know, when we
put people in a government system like the VA, number one,
we're putting them back in an institution that often just

(10:22):
views you as a number, right? Like, unless you can have that
human to human connection. And there are many wonderful
people within the VA system, butthere are many people that are
kind of just going through the motions or they're, or they're
just a victim of the system themselves.
So I think coming back to, to what you highlighted, it's just
the understanding that trauma takes place on so many different

(10:44):
levels. And I think veterans are the
worst at comparing themselves toothers.
Well, I didn't go to Iraq, I wasn't in Vietnam, I didn't go
to Afghanistan, You know, I, I didn't go through what so and so
went through. But it's all relative.
Everybody's experience is relative and it affects each
human Organism in a very specific way.

(11:05):
I. Agree.
And I 100% back what you just said.
I think that the moment you saw that dotted line saying that
you'll give everything you have up into and including your own
life for this country. From that moment forward, you're
a hero in my book because you have done the ultimate
sacrifice. And whether you're an admin who
played a major role as an administrator, you know, people

(11:27):
don't understand how many peopleit takes to make one jet fly and
without any one of those people that think that the pilot
doesn't have a chance to use it.So it's one of those beliefs for
me that we all sign that dotted line.
And there's that saying out there, I'm not one of those
people who almost joined the military.
Right, right, right. There is no almost when it comes
to that it's like almost going to prison.

(11:49):
You know, it's you're, you're inor you're out, you know, and I.
Actually. I almost joined the Marine Corps
when I was almost joined, right?Like when I when I was 19 and,
and this is a trip because I wasan art major and, and I was
dating someone who was going to join the Marine Corps.
And so we started hanging out atthe recruiter's office and I

(12:10):
hadn't started college yet. And I'm like, and yeah, and it,
and it's hilarious because the recruiters are telling me, you
know, that I I could do graphic design in the Marine Corps.
You know, they're like, like, look at these, look at these
brochures. You know, you you could.
I'm. Like, wow.
And, you know, my dad and I actually went down to the

(12:31):
recruiting station. I had my birth certificate, my
high school diploma, and we wentin there and I think my dad in
some ways saved my life. Police being a, being a female
Marine in the early 90s, you know, I, I've worked with so
many female Marines and man, it is a hard, it is a hard road.

(12:51):
And, and kudos to all of the ladies that, that, that, you
know, kicked, kicked ass and their Marine Corps.
But I, my dad's, I said, you know, they're my friends dad,
the, they're recruiters because we've been hanging out at the,
the recruiting office. You know, he, he, he, he just
looked at me and he said, you know, that maybe they're
friends, but they're recruiters first.

(13:14):
And I just, I had the sense I knew I'm like, if I sign that
dot in line, that's it. I'm, I'm, you know, I might, I
might lose weight and get in shape and be a badass, but my
life is not mine anymore. Right, you'll live in a state of
fight or flight every day of your life for the rest of the in
the military and then when you get out, you don't learn how to
stop living that way. So there's exactly.

(13:35):
I. Think that's what I'm hoping to
put together is something with everyone who loves and cares
about veterans as a way to stop that fight or flight from
existing all the time where you just never feel at peace.
And also to give these people community again.
Because so much of the exiting process is that one minute, yes,
you're surrounded by brothers and sisters that will die for

(13:57):
you and it feels great. The next minute, you're on your
own trying to figure out how to survive in a world that does not
treat people that way or they are not connected or they're not
community, which causes, you know, all the issues that
happen. But then again, you're made to
not ask for help. You're made to make sure you
internalize everything and if there's anything wrong with you.
And so people are literally trapped in this cageless cage.

(14:20):
And that's where it just begins.A. 100% And this is this was
especially the case. So in Oregon, there are no
active duty military bases. There's the Oregon National
Guard, but you have lots of people separating from the
service who are living in Oregon.
And then you have a lot of actually the Oregon National

(14:41):
Guard was heavily involved in, Ibelieve it was in O4O5 in Iraq,
more so than most National Guards were in, in active
combat. So there was more of an effort
to to figure out how do we, how do we, you know, how do we catch
these people coming out instead of just sending them back into
their communities isolated, You know, and you see a big

(15:04):
difference in a place like Oregon where there's no active
duty military base. I'm here in Colorado, I'm in the
Denver area, my brothers retiring out of the Colorado
Springs. So Colorado Springs is much more
of a military community, right? You have active duty military
base, you have tons of retirees.So you kind of still have a
little bit of that web of support.
Of course, you have to access it.

(15:25):
Like you're saying, there's often the issue, the barrier of
asking for help, which which is huge.
So, So what we did in Oregon, what my vision when I left the
VA was to create that community that we're talking about and a
place that was a non stigmatizing environment, right?
Because the worst thing you can do to a veteran is say while

(15:49):
you're really having problems, Ithink you should go talk to
someone. You know, like I think you need
to go sit in the fluorescent white walled room with a, you
know, interrogation light over your head and talk to a complete
stranger about your deepest darkest traumas, you know, Oh,
and by the way, in eight sessions or less, we're going to
fix you, you know, like we're going to get you in, get you
out. I used to call it the trauma

(16:10):
factory when I was working at the clinic and Bend.
I'm like, holy crap, you know, it's like 8:00 AM to 4:30 PM,
you know, and you keep getting referrals and you're supposed to
terminate, which is a horrible word.
Terminate with your clients, getmore in and get them out the
door anyway. So the Veterans Ranch is a 19
acre working farm that uses agriculture and peer support.

(16:32):
It is, you know, it was veteranswere involved every step of the
way. In fact, it was what I heard
from veterans as a clinician in the VA that really informed the
model. You know, I heard veterans, so
many veterans like yourself, like that are struggling with
their own trauma, but they want to help other veterans.
You know, it's just that ethos of like no man left behind, no

(16:56):
woman left behind, you know, like you, you have to look out
for those around you. That's that's the mission,
right? Everybody has to be taken care
of and moving forward. And that that is really one of
the pillars of the Central Oregon Veterans Ranch is that
sense of community. And also that it's it's it's not

(17:18):
stigmatizing. You can come if you have severe
debilitating PTSD or if you're you're doing fine, but you just
need that sense of connection toyour brothers and sisters who
served. That's a. 100% correct.
And I think that's exactly what we have.
It's a bunch of people out therethat are are in a sense broken

(17:39):
or disabled, which are, you know, tough words to use because
clues to say what that means or how it works.
But you know, I know for me battling depression, battling
head injury and all the things pain wise that I deal with.
One of the things that makes me feel better or the best about
myself is me trying to help other veterans not go through
what I have had to go through, which is that lonely.

(18:01):
I don't really know if there's anybody out there that cares.
All of those steps along the waythat 'cause people to the end up
one of these 22 a day or even 44a day as we know.
And I just think there's a way to make it stop.
You know, there's a way to end this.
And it just involves a process that for some reason I've had a
vision of for many, many years and it had really aligns with

(18:23):
what you've already done, but just takes it another step
forward into incorporating all veterans, all modalities of
healing and then under one umbrella.
Because I know you told me aboutyour brother and he is getting
out medically, but he didn't mention why yet on the podcast.
And what has he's gone through and kind of his issues now that
you're seeing come up and where he's at and how different he is

(18:45):
than when he joined? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a, it's AI Think one of thethings I see with my brother
too. And I've seen this with a lot of
veterans. It's like a, it's like a
calibration issue, you know, and, and I call it and I see it
with my husband. My husband is also a a veteran
of the Navy and the Army served as an airborne Arabic linguist

(19:10):
in the first Gulf War and then later on in the mid 2000s as an
infantry and a couple deployments infantry platoon
Sergeant. So but this idea of being in
mission mode and especially withmy brother because he's been in
for 27 years and he's done 3 combat deployments as a
helicopter pilot. So it's just this kind of like I

(19:30):
do see him in calm resting states, but I do see that kind
of like, you know, mission mode.And I'll say I, I, I'm not going
to go into specifics, just kind of to protect the privacy of my
brother, but I'll say a big issue also and another issue,
and this just speaks to the complexity and the layers,
Chris, like we're talking about of it's never any one thing.

(19:53):
I mean, I think the general civilian population says, oh,
PTSD, you know, or but the, the chronic pain, the injuries, the.
Another issue like we saw with our Vietnam vets was exposure to
Agent Orange, right. So I've lost, I'm very close to
a lot of Vietnam vets. I worked with a lot of them
especially in Central Oregon, keep in touch with a lot of

(20:15):
them, have a huge heart for the Vietnam vets and have lost a lot
of them to Agent Orange related cancers.
So my brother has some has had exposure to toxic chemicals and
so has some health issues related to that.
And my husband had kidney cancer, which is a presumptive

(20:35):
condition under the PACT Act. And so he has one kidney now.
So, you know, in the, and what happens in the VA system is it
kind of everything kind of gets depersonalized and sort of
watered down. So like it's just routine to do
these things all the time, right?
Like the surgeon after he did, you know, my husband was in the

(20:57):
OR from 9:00 AM until 2:30 PM. I mean, we got to the VA at like
5:00 AM, right? So we're, we're there, I'm
waiting for him from 6:00 AM until, you know, 3:00 PM to, to
here and, and the surgeon calls and says, you know, I didn't
like how things were looking. We had to, you know, they were
originally just going to take out the, the cancerous part, but

(21:18):
we had to take out the whole kidney.
So my husband finds this out when he wakes up that he's had
an organ removed from his body, you know, a robot with six
incisions throughout his whole body.
You know, this very complex surgery and and the surgeon is
like, yeah, you know, he'll spend the night tonight.
You know, ideally tomorrow he can get up, throwback a burger

(21:39):
and walk out. And I'm just like, throwback a
burger and walk out. You just RIP a frickin organ out
of his body dude. No way he's going to come from
that ball, right? I'm like you.
Just oh, the body's just been traumatized you.
Just took it. From his body and he's going to
throwback a burger and dance outof here.
You know. And, and apparently this guy had

(22:00):
on a kamikaze headband, you know, when he was doing the
surgery. And I'm just like, what is this?
But you know, my husband was saying no one, no one asked him
about his service. No one said, you know, this is
another thing with veterans in the VA system.
Like anybody that's had trauma, when you go, he has high anxiety

(22:20):
just going to the VA. Oh yeah, we talked about that.
Our blood pressure is always higher when we go to the VA.
Exactly how high blood pressure you think.
Yeah, yeah, every time he walks in.
To get to just this point. And he might assigned and agree
to to get to this point Yeah, have I blood pressure.
Yeah. And, and I think it comes down

(22:42):
to this idea that we've we've medicalized and depersonalized
the wounds that the the people suffer from.
And, and I, I can tell you that sitting in a counseling office
for six years with veterans, to me it was like a shaman cell.
It was like a monk cell. It, it, it was sacred work.

(23:04):
It was spiritual work. When you have people coming in,
when people trust you and they start opening their heart and
their soul to you and, and they start sharing with you the, the,
the, the deepest sufferings of their life.
It is a sacred container. And, and then you're kind of
like, how do I help these people?
What do I do, you know, And thenyou start to get traumatized

(23:27):
because you feel overwhelmed because you're like, holy shit,
like, how do I, how do I help them release some of this
suffering or have hope or move forward?
You know, and, and that's kind of part of my journey was
realizing, you know, hearing veterans talk about how they
needed to be connected to other vets and they, they loved being
in nature. That was healing and connecting

(23:48):
with animals. And so bringing all those
elements together in an environment that that says come
as you are, it doesn't matter ifyou're physically injured,
doesn't matter if you struggle mentally, spiritually,
everything that you are is valuable.
And just bring it, you know, show up.
You don't have to work. You don't have to feed animals.

(24:09):
You can just come sit here and look at the mountains.
But be be seen and be valued, nomatter what you're dealing with.
Absolutely. And I think there's still a lot
of a lot of trauma comes from the process of trying to get
attached to the VA after you getout.
Most believe after a while, it took 10 years from the date that

(24:31):
I applied to the date that I wasfinally accepted as a service
connected veteran to get approved, 10 years.
And then in that period, I was denied multiple times, even
though in my medical file it says very clearly from my brain
injury, you know, and it's like,so you're saying I don't have
one, but this says I do. But now I'm made to feel crazy
because of all the things I dealwith, plus I'm having to seek

(24:53):
help with no compensation and nohelp.
And so I think that that system itself, I mean, eventually I had
to go in front of a federal judge, sit down and plead my
case to him. And he basically overturned and
approved all of the disabilitiesthat I had that were written in
my medical file directly. But the whole time I'm being
told by my friends and family that it's not worth it, Don't
bother. They're not going to ever

(25:14):
approve it. And I was like, listen, I was
taught to never give up and I was trained by them to never
quit. So they created their own worst
nightmare with me. I'm going through with this.
And through my appointment with the federal judge, I walked out
and I said, you know what, whether I get it or not, I'd
finished what I started and I fought the best that I could for
my belief in what I was doing. And I was approved and on all

(25:38):
levels. So it was, it was cathartic.
But over that 10 year period, I was also fed numerous
medications and I put through the system so heavily that I
mean, I was in and out of there four or five times a day and
some of the medications contradicted other medications.
And it was a long crazy. And I'm still, you know,
obviously in the system and going through that same thing

(25:59):
when it's like, can I really trust you guys to give me the
best information and the best stuff?
Or am I, should I be doing that in research to back up what I So
I think that's probably another reason we need an out processing
system for vets where they can go through a training or an
unwinding or on deprogramming oftheir whole own way of thinking.

(26:19):
And also have people there to help them with the process that
they need to be able to get service connected and also to
find money to open their own nonprofits, as you've been
talking about. Yeah.
And absolutely having that support is critical because, you
know, with, with suffering, I mean, one, one thing that's
talked about is that if you can make meaning out of your

(26:41):
suffering, it's a lot easier to bear.
But as we know, so much of so many traumatic events seem to be
completely senseless or purposeless, you know, and, and
one of our veterans who participated in the ranch, he,
he, he was one of the founding members and really helped build,
build the ranch. He lived out there for, I think

(27:01):
a year and a half, almost two years.
And he said, you know, he was like a young kid in Iraq and
busting down doors and, you know, and, and, and he said at a
certain point, you know, after having to tie up so many
civilians, you know, that were, that were terrified, you know,
women and children and, and, and, and after busting into so

(27:22):
many homes, he just said he kindof had a, a meltdown and, and
said, what, you know, what are we doing here?
What are, why are we here? What is the purpose of this?
And and so the same with with being alone, you know, and being
isolated when we have that kind of suffering.
But if you can go through that with somebody else or have that

(27:43):
kind of support or have people are like, Oh my God, I know what
that feels like. I know what that's like.
And how can I help you? How can I be here for you?
You know, that's what's, that's what's so key.
And that's what we saw so many times at the Veterans Ranch.
And it was I, I can't tell you how many times I heard from
veterans. Wow.
I wish I'd had, I wish I'd foundthis place right after I'd

(28:05):
gotten out. I wish, you know, I wish I'd had
this right after or, or veteransin other areas.
You know, I wish I had a place like that to go to.
And it's, and it's not, it's not, you know, it's funny
because a lot of people say, well, what are your programs?
What are your programs? And I said, well, it's not so
much about programs as it is about experience and support.

(28:27):
You know, there's peer support groups.
There was a veteran only a, a group.
There's agriculture classes and that type of thing.
But it's more about, it's more about being together, getting
outside, getting your mind off your own shit.
You know, I had a board meeting a few years into the nonprofit.
And I had, I had a lot of like retired military officers that I

(28:48):
worked with on my board and kindof, you know, at the higher
levels and stuff. And some of them came out to the
ranch too, for sure. But I had an Iraq, an Iraq
veteran and he was not on our board.
And I asked him to come to this meeting.
It was a strategic planning meeting.
And I said, Mark, I want you to come to this meeting as a
participant in the Veterans Ranch.
And this guy didn't even live inthe area.

(29:08):
His in laws did. And he would come down and he'd
call us ahead of time and he'd be like, hey, I'm going to be in
Central Oregon this weekend. What do you guys have going on?
What do you need? What kind of work is being done
at the ranch? So I have him come to this
strategic planning meeting and some of the the board members
are like what? We don't have any programs.
We don't have any programs and my veteran stands up.

(29:33):
He pushes himself back from the table.
He slams his hands down on the table and he says, if I have to
hear about one more effing program.
And he goes, when I come to the ranch, I don't want a program.
I want you to give me a shovel and tell me what to do, you

(29:55):
know? And it's like, it's like, don't
program. Don't programize me, you know,
don't diagnose me. Don't don't make me feel like
I'm this disordered, broken heapof bones and you and you can't
fix me, you know, show me how useful I am.
Show me what I have to offer. Focus on my strengths, you know?

(30:16):
100%. You got it.
Still valuable. We're still worth something.
A. 100% and this is like you gotto look at like your soul and
your being and who you are just I can tell, like you and I, the
first conversation we had on thephone, right?
I'm like, I love this guy, you know, because you were real and
you came from your heart and youwere humble, you know, and you

(30:37):
have so much to offer. And I think this is a message
that's so important for veterans.
It's not just about what you cando, right.
I talk a lot with the model of care about the Veterans Ranch
doing and being right. Those are two different things.
It's great if you can do some things, but that's not what your
real value is. Your real value is who you are,

(31:00):
your human being, your soul, your heart.
Well, and I appreciate that verymuch because I do live in my
truth and I have for a very longtime, although it hasn't paid
off well for me as far as civilians and like family
members, those people have just,they just don't understand
someone like me and they don't have the capacity to even have

(31:22):
compassion or empathy at all forsomething that I, that is such a
horrible situation that, you know, maybe I've had some
incidents over the years where my brain doesn't understand
things or I can't hear. So you're frustrated.
And when I get frustrated, I speak louder.
So I'm not yelling. I'm just trying to get to be
able to communicate properly, neither here nor there.

(31:43):
It doesn't matter. There's no tolerance, there's no
acceptability by my family. And they've all written me off
as basically somebody that doesn't deserve to be in their
family anymore. And I'm like, and also they just
credit me as a, as a, as a veteran, even though I served
six years in the military. You know, it's, it's amazing how
like little respect and little understanding and compassion

(32:04):
they have. And I imagine that if it's that
way for me, it's that way for everybody else.
But I have chosen to allow allowthat to go away so that I could
choose my new family, the peoplewho do understand and who do
align with what much I have. So I appreciate you saying that
because I felt the same way and we just synchronized right away.
And it was an amazing conversation.

(32:26):
I was so excited to have you be a part of this conversation that
we're having now. So as you transition to the
ranch and got through that process, did you get to a point
where you decided it was just more more important to your
purpose to get out there and help other people start their
nonprofits? Yeah, Yeah, that's it.
That's a good question. So sort of after.

(32:51):
Well, the ranch is currently in its 10th year of operation.
So a few years ago, as you know,we had a documentary made one of
my veterans who I had known since I was in the VA, who I
absolutely love, Vinnie Jocks. We collaborated a lot.
Vinny created a program for the Oregon National Guard.
It was like a seamless transition.
It was called the reintegration reintegration Team.

(33:14):
So to get Oregon National Guard soldiers connected up with
services and resources as soon as they got out, Vinny's just a
bad ass. And so anyway, we kept in touch
over the years and he said, you know, sometime I'm going to
introduce you to, to a friend ofmine in, in LA.
She, she's a filmmaker and she'sa producer.

(33:35):
And I'm like, right on, you know.
And so, you know, when he, he came and visited the ranch, he's
like, I can't believe you did this.
He goes, I remember you talking about your dream and talking
about this vision you had. And he's like, holy crap, here I
am. This is it, you know, And then
he has his own little piece of property in Oregon.
Then he knows how therapeutic like farming and being on the
tractor and being out in nature is.

(33:56):
So he connected me to a woman hemet through some documentary
film work he was in because of his time in service in in Iraq.
Suzanne De Laurentiis. So if any of your listeners have
heard of Dino De Laurentiis, andthey're they're an Italian
family who was who came over andwas very involved in early
Hollywood, the King Kong movies,you know, big epic films like

(34:20):
that. So Suzanne is a film producer
and she and I hit it off right away.
She's a she's a Jersey girl and I spent my summers on the Jersey
Shore. And so she has a huge heart for
veterans. And so we made a film and we
filmed it in three days, which is almost unheard of in in a

(34:40):
filmmaking. And it's on Amazon.
It's called Cover me the path topurpose and you know it, it, it
is a testimonials of the veterans who participated at the
Central Oregon Veterans Ranch. And so that film, again, it's on
Amazon, it's on some other streaming platforms and we'll

(35:01):
have a link for your for your listeners that so that they can
access it. But we made that film and
shortly after that is when I wasintroduced to my now husband.
And for people who haven't ever run a nonprofit before, I will
tell you that it is, it is a nonprofit you're running.

(35:22):
But when you're running a 19 acre working farm with a bunch
of traumatized veterans and, and, and a board of directors
and you're, you're constantly raising money and, and you know,
doing all this, I will say it's 100% worth it.
It's, it's a, it's a life changing, amazing experience,
but it's an all consuming experience.

(35:44):
So you kind of go in and out of burnout, especially if you're
someone who has your own trauma,right?
Like so many people that want tostart nonprofits are doing it
because they have their own personal connection to the work.
So I've worked with veterans andmilitary and I also have a
childhood history of trauma myself.
So, you know, I, I, I'm continually working on myself as

(36:06):
well. So anyway, I met my husband
around that time and just the way events unfolded, I ended up
moving to Colorado and getting married.
But as you mentioned, continuingto promote this mission, promote
the work and help others based on what I've learned as from
starting a non profit with no resources.
Chris, you know, people like howare you going to do this?

(36:29):
But a lot of people I've seen that maybe retire after a
military career or retire out ofa corporate job and they've got
a network of contacts and they've got money.
They've already got people linedup to invest and give them
money. I had none of that.
I was just this crazy counselor that's like, I'm going to take a
leap of faith and leave the VA and go do this thing.

(36:51):
And I was like, I had no idea how I was going to do it, but I
knew I was going to do it. I had that determination and I
was like, if my veterans can survive the military and can
survive war, like what's the worst that's going to happen?
I'm not going to die starting a nonprofit.
Some sometimes I actually thought I was because my my, my
health issues and the toll it took.

(37:12):
But it is when you do this kind of work to help others, like you
said it, it is my purpose too. You know, I'm going to selfishly
say it. And I can tell you I could be
having like a a crappy morning. I'd wake up, I'd feel, you know,
kind of depressed or like low energy.

(37:32):
And but then I would get out to the ranch.
I'd drive out over that cattle guard.
I would be in this beautiful natural setting with postcard
views of the Three Sisters Mountains.
You know, everybody's happy to see you.
I see my greenhouse manager. We had a hydroponics greenhouse,
you know, and, and then you're in this community and it's

(37:53):
beautiful and everyone, I used to call it the the island of
Misfit toys, you know, because I'm like, we can all be broken
and effed up together, like isn't.
This awesome. You know, nobody has to meet a
standard. Nobody has to be all that.
You know, it's just show up. Well, you know, and not to put
you on the spot, but my first phone call to you was Allison.

(38:16):
I have no idea what I'm doing, the resources I need, and I need
help. Can you help me, please?
You are so happy and quick to see you ask me where and what I
had going so far. And you've been nothing but
supportive since then. But you're, I mean, I have a
vision, I have a dream. And I, I believe that helping
others is the best way for me toheal myself at this point.

(38:37):
And so my passion is there. My contacts and connections are
getting to be really there, but I don't know how to work it.
I don't know how to do it. Let's be honest.
It's not an easy process to build, let alone make it work.
So I get what you're saying because there's days where it's
like, is this even possible? Or is it, you know, is this
impossible? And so then somebody will be

(38:58):
delivered to me like you and I go, OK, it's possible.
We're good now last for about a day or two till there's another
roadblock and you're like, all right, now what?
And then somebody else will comein and they're like, boom,
that's OK, Now that's overcome. We're getting there.
We're getting there, you know, but it's definitely not an easy
road or path to get on. It's not.
And I think you know, when it, when I, when I heard you, I, I

(39:19):
was like my heart, like I was like, Oh, this, this is right
on. You know, when you're like, I
have no idea what I'm doing and I'm like, I can work with that,
you know, like, because, becausethat's the sign of a good
leader. You know what your strengths and
your skills are and you have thepassion.
You know, you want to, you want to do the mission, but you also
know that you need a team and you need people who don't have

(39:41):
the skill sets you have to do it.
And that's how it was when I started the ranch.
I was like, I have no idea how to do this.
I just know I'm going to do it and I need to find people to
help me do it. And so, you know, that started
this journey in 2013. I started an Advisory Board.
I had veterans first and foremost, like the veterans with
PTSD, because that was the most important thing is like they

(40:03):
have to be involved in this every step of the way and give
feedback because it's for them. And if they're not, they're not
jiving with the decisions we're making, then it's pointless, you
know? So they have to give input and
feedback every step of the way. So sometimes we had Advisory
Board meetings with 6 packs of beer being brought and that kind
of thing. I'm not sure what was smoked

(40:23):
ahead of time or not, but you know, be that as it's made.
Don't ask, don't tell. And then we had healthcare
workers, people who had worked in Hospice, people who had
worked with veterans in therapy.We had and we had retired
military officers, which is sometimes a mixed bag because

(40:44):
startups are you have to take risk in startups.
So you have to find this balancewhen you're working with
military around taking risk versus risk averse.
Now your infantry guys are goingto take risks, your, your
military officers are going to be a little more reserved, you
know, so, so I had to find the balance between that and, and,

(41:05):
but I'm, I tend to be the crazy risk taker, like let's charge,
you know, and you know, I tend to be on the offensive rather
than the defensive, But you got to have that passion and that
drive which you have and, and then building a team and
coalescing. And like I, I sense that with
what you're doing, it's like starting a movement with the
energy going and people buying into that and, and being clear

(41:29):
about what you want to do, you know, but it is also an
evolutionary process. I think the, the way the ranch
unfolded, you know, it, it, it the way an organization grows.
It's also, that's what's beautiful about it.
It's a creative process. I thought of it as like a piece
of art, you know, this is a creation that is unfolding and

(41:49):
developing. But I don't think it's something
that all has to happen at once. It's just a evolutionary process
that, you know, over time is going to be built on.
And there'll be people that comeand go and people that come and
stay. But at the end of the day, you
know, it's, it's a challenging thing for me to know I have a, a
solution to ending veteran suicide.

(42:11):
I have the entire map layout, the connections, the people,
everything, but I don't understand how to do it all and
I don't know how to make it all into a non profit.
I don't know what to do with R PS I don't know, you know, like
there's so many things that are in my way of making it happen
where it's like, Hey, I just want to say to the government,
listen, you guys are there. I give me a chance and I'll show

(42:32):
you in one year what I can do. You know what I mean?
Like, and it would be like if I could just plead that case to
somebody, then I would be like, OK, go and I can show them.
I mean, I can make a real difference really quickly.
And so having you as a part of the organization on any level is
obviously going to benefit everyone that's involved.
And completely stoked because itmakes me feel more secure
knowing I have somebody that canat least advise me on what's

(42:55):
going on because I'm so I don't have any idea.
And most of the people I talked to, like you said, they've
invested their own money to get their not-for-profit up and
they're doing the best they can.But the government is wanting to
give more money to a better non profits.
And, you know, we have the rightpresidency now.
I believe everything is in alignment with the opportunity
to actually grow into something that's going to be repairing and

(43:20):
fixing what damage has been doneto these men and women who just
gave everything to this country and I think.
Absolutely. And I was and I was happy to
hear about that. I haven't read the details about
it, but just the idea of more money going to nonprofits
because, you know, we live in a complex society right now and
complex views in terms of politics and all of that.

(43:41):
But it, it, it's, we live in a democratic capitalist society.
And I remember talking to one ofour grant writers and, and
nonprofit consultants about thisand she said, you know, the idea
of living in a free society where, where people are able to
make as much money as they want,you know, as opposed to a
communist or a socialist societywhere everybody's capped and

(44:03):
there's no, there's no freedom to, to, to grow your business or
to make, you know, there's, there's not as much freedom,
right. So, but the idea is that we have
charity. We have like you, you know, the
ideal is that you benefit from acapitalist system by being able
to make as much money you want. But some of that money should go

(44:24):
back into making your community a better place, right?
If that that, that's what I believe.
That's the whole purpose of whatcharity is about.
And yeah, happens to be good. You get a tax write off.
But it's like we cannot rely on the government to fix
everything. You know, we have these mixed
views, like we don't want government, we don't want big
government, but we want government to fix it, you know,
So it's like you can't have both.

(44:45):
So the idea that you funnel money into the community to
people like yourself and people who want to start and run
nonprofits to really do the workand really make a difference and
be innovative and creative. Like I can tell you being in the
government for six years, it's not innovative and creative.
You know, my husband works for Department of Energy.
He's an engineer. And it's like, it's not
innovative and creative maybe here and there a little bit, but

(45:08):
it's government. You know what, what you have to
think outside the box when we'retrying to come up with
solutions. Veteran suicide has not changed.
VA has tried different initiatives.
So what what do we do to respondto this?
Like you're saying, you know, and I can tell you so many
veterans who came through the ranch, not only were their lives

(45:28):
saved, but they were transformed.
You know, once you see someone plug into community, you see
them get support, you see them getting out and getting active,
not remaining in their isolationin the prison of their own mind,
they all of a sudden become free.
They're like, OK now. Now I can actually live instead

(45:48):
of just survive. And you saw people, their
relationships improved, their marriages improved, their
parenting improved. They went on to get jobs.
They figured out their life purpose.
Some of them went into agriculture.
Some of them were like, oh, I'llgive you an example, Chris, one
of our veterans and his actuallyhis mom was also an Army vet.

(46:11):
So he started coming out him andhe was a veteran of Afghanistan.
He started coming out once a week and his mom would come out
and work in the hydroponics greenhouse just once a week.
Then he started coming out like after a year he started coming
out a little more. This guy and this guy had
crippling anxiety. He had dropped out of college.
He had been going to school, buthe had crippling anxiety and

(46:33):
could not go to college. So he starts coming out to the
ranch. Then he starts coming out more
than he and his mom start participating in events.
I'm like, holy crip, like most vets want to be off the radar,
don't want to be crowds. He's coming and helping out with
events. He's like, oh, can I, can I help
out at the booth? Then he starts coming to peer
support groups. And then and then I stopped

(46:55):
seeing him for a while and I'm like, what?
Where did he go? What happened to him?
And so then one of the veterans who was running the peer support
group says, we, you know what happened to him, right?
And I'm like, no, he goes, well,he went back to school, he said.
And this was after two years, two years of coming out to the
ranch every week consistently and increasing his time.

(47:17):
He said it was coming out to theranch and getting out of the
house and getting re acclimated to being around people that he
finally felt confident and secure and calm enough to go
back to school. So it, it, it, these things take
time, right? And this was the thing in the
VA, it's like, get them in, get them out, you know, 8 sessions

(47:39):
or less, 12 sessions or less, evidence based treatments, you
know, and you don't want to throw the baby out with the
bathwater there. There is a lot of fantastic
education that comes out of the VAA lot of research that comes
out of the VAA, lot of stuff about the brain and how the
brain works. And that's all good.
And it helps manage symptoms. But it's not the place where

(48:00):
someone's soul gets healed, you know, where someone's whole life
gets transformed. That takes place in community.
100% I agree. And I think the solution to the
22 a day is definitely going to be funded by non by the
government, through nonprofits that are out to help veterans.
And as we talked about the firsttime we talked, an umbrella

(48:22):
company that can can bring together all the people that are
doing the same thing and different modalities that are
helping veterans is really wherethe solution lies.
Somebody that has a vision of OK, all these people have value
to add to the situation. But like you said to the VAI
mean, I spent 10 years wonderingif there was something really

(48:42):
wrong with me or if and how wrong it was.
Was diagnosed with every acronymacross the book.
You know an ADHDHTVI bipolar PTSDOCDI was like did we miss
any? Should we add anything else?
Yeah. Can we make one up and just, you
know, can we make one up so you can prescribe more meds to me
because. That's right, he's making.

(49:03):
A lot of money off of that. And I was on 11 medications a
day until I quit taking him because I was like, look, I
don't even think you guys know what's wrong with me anymore.
And so and I don't know that they did, but they were trying
with what they had. Like you said, I didn't have
community, I didn't have support, I didn't have love.
I was afraid to tell people about my stuff.
And it's been difficult for me because as you said, veterans,

(49:24):
we like to be basically in in the background.
We don't really want to be out in the front.
And you know, as I grew as a yoga instructor, not just
because of self preservation, but as a influencer, I was like,
I was hiding behind an alias fora long time and they asked me,
sponsors asked me to use my nameso I was easier to find.
And I was like, but I don't wantmy name out there.

(49:46):
I don't want to be talking on that, you know, So ironically,
here I am many years later, I'm like, you know what, All right,
fine, I'm into it. Whatever it takes to save lives,
I'll do so. As uncomfortable as this whole
thing is for me, being transparent with everyone is
what I believe is the best way to get them to be transparent
with me and to believe in what I'm doing and that it's 100% for

(50:09):
not for me. It's not a selfish 'cause it's
selfless. Believe me, I'd much rather be
playing golf and fishing every day.
But this is what my calling is. This is what I have to do.
So how do I get there? And that's the question.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.
That's how I felt it was for me,it was a calling.
It's a it's a vocation. It's something you commit

(50:29):
yourself to and it's and it is transformational.
So it's exciting to see your efforts and what you're doing
and, and trying to make a difference.
And yeah, I, I have really been really lately been thinking
about this idea of an umbrella organization because I, I know
that the veterans want to help other veterans, but not every

(50:50):
veteran wants to run a business.And that, you know, at the end
of the day, that's what a nonprofit is.
It's a business. And, you know, someone else
who's a veteran, he's a businesscoach, just connected me to one
of his clients. And he said, hey, I've, I've got
this guy on the East Coast. He does, you know, wilderness
excursions for veterans, but he hates raising money.

(51:14):
He just, he wants help. He's like, I'll pay somebody a
cut. I just, I don't want to have to
raise money, you know. And so it's like, how can we all
work together, right? Like, where is my skill set?
I mean, this is how it was when I, when my brother deployed for
the invasion of Iraq. And, and, and, you know, it's
such a crazy time in our country.
It's like we're going to war. We have not had a war in, in my

(51:35):
lifetime, at least. Like not a we, we had to go for,
but that was kind of like 90 days, you know, but this was
like, oh, oh, oh, crap. You know, people are leaving and
they're gone for a year. And, and I just thought I, I
need to do something, I need to serve.
And I'm like, I don't think joining the military is my, is,
is the deal for me. But I've got this master's

(51:56):
degree in counseling. So how can I, how can I use that
to help people? And that's what launched me into
my career, you know, working as a trauma therapist in the VA.
And it's like, we all have something to offer.
How do we support the mission? You know, and so for me, my
strength was raising money. My strength was public speaking,
my strength was storytelling andgetting people to cry and open

(52:20):
their wallets, you know, and, and so that's, that's what I'm
looking at myself is whether, excuse me, whether it's a
umbrella organization or it's just continuing to work directly
with different nonprofits. But it's, you know, if any of
your listeners relate to any of that or are, are working on
similar efforts, you know, I think there's different levels

(52:43):
of how we can support each otherand support all the veterans out
there that want to do this type of thing.
But like you said, don't have the experience and feel kind of
overwhelmed by it. It's true there's a a system out
there that involves all of us. We all have different talents
and skill sets. And one thing that's been shown
to me is I was just like you. I was like, yeah, I have this

(53:06):
great idea. I've got this concept, but I
have no idea how to make it happen.
I have no idea how it starts. And then slowly over time, I
shouldn't say that slowly, but over a few week period, I've had
so many people delivered to me. And like I mentioned Chris
Dixon, which we've done a couplepodcasts with him, He
specializes in finding financingand knowing how to find RFPs,

(53:26):
knowing how to find grant money,that kind of thing.
So, but he's working a corporatejob right now, and I'd like to
get him on board with my team full time to train three other
people to be able to do the samething.
And then having you a part of the organization is somebody who
understands all this connective tissue that has to be brought
together to make it run. And then allowing me to continue

(53:46):
to do what I do, which is basically get my vision out, get
more people involved. I mean, it's going to take a
collective effort of all of us getting together.
And I believe that we have the right people, the right
situation, the right plan that can inspire other organizations
to come be a part of ours. I mean, I have 345 a nonprofit

(54:07):
5O1C threes now that are all supported this one.
So they're starting to come underneath and they're not
underneath, but a part of the way what I'm doing.
Because the great thing about yoga is yoga means to bring
together. And that's basically what the
definition of that word is, to stop stretching.
It's literally to bring people together.
So it encompasses all aspects oflife, discipline, you know,

(54:30):
everything, authenticity, you know, breath work, meditation,
etcetera, etcetera. So it's like there's no part of
what anyone does that is not part of yoga.
And that's kind of where I thought of being such a great
term to use because again, what would be the word that would
encompass everybody? Yeah, I, I like that.

(54:50):
I like that because I, I, I'm thinking as you're talking about
the word unity and the word integrity.
So I'm, I'm really big on, you know, that's my, that's, I would
have to say in my work, that's my #1 value is integrity.
You know, if I'm going to work with a client, if I'm going to

(55:11):
work with somebody to start something, if I'm going to work
with somebody in business, it means be it a donor or whatever,
there has to be integrity. You know, and I've seen that
over and over again in, in the 10 years of well, I ran it for
eight years of, of running the nonprofit is in integrity.
The word is also connected to the word integral, right?

(55:32):
Integrated. There has to be like an
alignment, mind, body, spirit, everything has to be in
alignment with the mission, you know, and so that's that's
that's something that's so important to me.
But when you're talking about the word yoga, that's
interesting. I like that.
And you and I have talked about on the phone we were talking
about. So we've both been to India and

(55:54):
I love India and, and I have a friend who is an Iyengar yoga
instructor who who got to live in India for five years in Pune
and study with Mr. Iyengar. And her area of specialization
is, is scoliosis. And so that's, that's kind of
her, her domain. But, but I practiced Ayangar

(56:15):
yoga in Central Oregon for six years, haven't quite found my,
my community or my outlet here in the Denver area yet.
It's funny, you'd think being ina big city that you'd have way
more resources, but but sometimes being in a smaller
region or a community, it's likeeasier to find stuff because
it's word of mouth. And you know, it's like you find

(56:36):
a big fish in a little pond versus I'm, I'm in like, I don't
know if it's 7 million people orwhat it is, but it's like, wow.
It's like sometimes trying to find a needle in a haystack.
But, but what I loved about yogawas also that idea of
integration, you know, of, of integrating the mind, the body
and the spirit. And I, and I think that speaks

(56:57):
to something, Chris, that's likeeverything starts within us,
within our own self doing the work.
Yes, we're, we're never going tobe like fixed or 100%.
It's a journey. And I think this is part of the
craziness of the VA system. It's like it's made you supposed
to make you think you're going to get heat, get fixed, right?

(57:19):
Or like you have a disorder, youhave a diagnosis, we're going to
medicate you and that's going tofix it versus this idea that
healing is an ongoing process. It's an ongoing journey.
And, you know, I, I, this is my first marriage.
I, I met my husband when I was 50 years old, You know, talk
about being transparent, right? Because of my own childhood

(57:41):
trauma, I managed to like sabotage relationships or, you
know, like what, whatever was going on, It's like, I'm like,
I'm not doing that. I'm not putting myself in that
prison, you know, and, and, but but I got healed enough, you
know, I grew enough and dealt with enough of my own shit to
like get to a place where I saidthis, this is what I really

(58:01):
want. And and now it's going to be at
a certain level of health, right?
Like now I can actually make better decisions rather than,
you know, these self destructingrelationships.
And but it's work, it's a journey, you know, and it's a
daily process. And sometimes we're in a good
plateau where we're moving forward and sometimes we get

(58:22):
really stuck. And so all the more important to
have that community and that connection with others.
But so I love that what you weretalking about with with yoga,
because the whole practice of it, any, any practice, a
spiritual practice is meant for us to be the best that we are so

(58:44):
that we can bring that into our community and into the world,
don't you think? 100% I agree.
I mean, it's about self discovery, admitting to
yourself, you know, with the things that you deny all the
time for so long in your life before you become OK.
And then it's all about, you know, realizing that you're an
imperfect person who's trying todo something that is hopefully

(59:06):
perfect. But ultimately, let's be honest.
I mean, even every time I seem to get to a good place in my
journey and in my my well-being,some other trauma bums into life
and knocks me off my feet and put me back on the ground.
And that's where I know that I can't do this.
This isn't me doing this. This is going to take a

(59:27):
collective effort of a whole bunch of people who believe the
same thing that I do to make this happen because I'm putting
myself. I'm putting myself out there
100%. And it's not an easy thing to
do. But as you know, last week I
just got thrown the most major curveball ever in the history of
curveballs. And then I'm going, man, here I
am thinking everything's going so well and I've got my, I'm

(59:48):
focused on the line. I'm in my truth.
Bam, you know, just, and now I'mlike, back to what were we doing
again? What's going on?
You know, and it's that's where I understand having a team of
people who also know that what we're doing is the right thing
to be able to pick it up and carry on with it and make sure
it keeps going because. It's going to happen to each and

(01:00:08):
every one of us over the years. And that's where having someone
there, having those people, there is a support system that I
know I can count on. So if I need to go lay in my bed
for two straight days, I can do that and trust that the people
that are with me are going to carry on the mission going to.
Carry on the mission. And this is something, you know,
and I want to say this especially for any veterans out

(01:00:28):
there listening, which hopefully, and I think there are
probably many, but it's like youdon't serve in the military
alone. You don't go to war alone, You
don't do a mission alone. You have team, you have a
family, you have support. So why would you think you can
do it alone when you're out? Why would you think you can do

(01:00:49):
it alone when you're out? You know, and, and I see this,
I'm not going to mention any family members or close people
in my life, but I see this on anup close and personal level.
I'm like, why aren't you asking for help?
You know, why aren't you talkingto somebody?
Now I had, I had a, a veteran inwhen I was in the VA clinic in

(01:01:09):
Central Oregon. I love this guy.
He's doing awesome now, but man,he used to 1st come in, he wore
these dark sunglasses. I couldn't even see his eyes.
I can at least see your eyes with you through your
sunglasses. You know, description because
the eyes are the window of the soul, right?
So it's very it's it's, it's symbolic and it's literal.
But he's coming in and he's literally covering up his soul.

(01:01:30):
You know, he's so traumatized. He's got these like black
sunglasses on and I can't see super quiet.
Couldn't get a word out of him. Chris.
It was like, I like, I was like,I know I like this guy, but I
cannot stand these sessions because Maddie, like I need a
crowbar to pry open his mouth. I'm like talking, you know?
So finally overtime, finally overtime, I get him to talk and

(01:01:55):
to open up and, and then he starts to bring in his his
family, bring in his children, bring in his spouse.
And I'm going to be honest with you, I just completely lost my
train of thought about why I wastelling you this.
I was going to tell you that I just my buddy Ben, who's an
intricate part of this whole construction process.

(01:02:18):
He had a veteran move in with him, who lived with him every
day for six months before he ever said a word to him.
And he said six months he lived with him and didn't say
anything. And then after six months, one
day he came to him and opened upand dumped everything on him.
And after six months, he just told him how to basically
realize that you could trust him, you could count on him.
And then he had waited six months to actually talk to this

(01:02:41):
person who was living in his home.
But. This this speaks the time it
takes, and it speaks to I. I heard this interesting
statement and I remember what I was going to say about this
veteran, but I heard this interesting statement about the
soul, that the soul is shy, but that if you take one step closer

(01:03:02):
to your soul, your soul will take 1000 steps closer to you.
And so exactly as you're saying,it just took time with this
veteran. And I remember, you know, he'd
come in, he's very stoic, you know, he, he's like so shut
down, right. And so finally we were one day
talking. I was like, well, do you have
any friends? Do you, do you have support?
Do you keep in touch with anyonefrom the military?

(01:03:24):
And he's like, you know, kind of.
And I was like, I was like, don't you, do you have anybody
you talk to? Like, do you go out with your
buddies and have a beer and talkabout stuff again, National
Guard? So totally not in, you know, not
everyone's scattered to the wind, right?
And he's like, oh, I said, you know, like I have like my
girlfriends and I get together once a week for Taco Tuesday,
you know, and we like we talk and we, you know, and drink wine

(01:03:46):
and, and just like start laughing, you know, this huge
like bust into a granny's like, sorry, you're telling me I need
to do a Taco Tuesday. I'm like, yeah, bro, start a
freaking talking Chaco Tuesday, you know, do something.
But what ended up actually happening with his veteran was
fascinating. So, and this was as we're
getting closer to his trauma, because he had a massive

(01:04:09):
survivor guilt because of something that happened in in
Iraq and somebody that that thatdied, that should have been him,
you know, like the like, like crazy story.
So, so we're finally getting into this, the deeper part of
the, the trauma over time, right?
And it's, it's been like a year.I've been working with him for

(01:04:31):
like a year. And so I think this was like a
right around this time, early June, mid June.
So he knows shows for his appointment.
And I'm like, that's weird. You know, like this is someone
who's been coming consistently for a year.
He knows shows for an appointment.
I call him. I call, we're supposed to call
like several times. Doesn't call back, doesn't show

(01:04:54):
up. And I'm like, this is so weird.
Just dropped off the radar, right?
So flash forward a few months later, I see him in the clinic
making an appointment for his medical care.
He has lost weight. He looks great.
He has a huge smile on his face.And he says, I've been meaning
to contact you to tell you what happened.

(01:05:16):
And I was like, yeah, you think I'm like, he just, like, went
dark, bro. And so, so we set up an
appointment and he tells me he was on his way to the clinic
that day that he no showed he was on his way to the clinic.
He said, Allison, I don't know what it was, but I just drove
right past the clinic. He goes and I didn't really know

(01:05:37):
where I was going, but I just kept driving and I ended up
going up into the mountains and he went to this mountain and
been called Mount Bachelor, which is like a lot of people
ski there and they've got hikingtrails and stuff.
He's like, and I drove up to thethe trailhead at Mount Bachelor
actually, sorry, it was S's sister, which I had hiked, which
is like 6000 feet elevation. And he goes, I go, wow, I'm

(01:06:00):
like, what'd you do When he got there?
He goes, I just parked my car and I started walking up S's
sister and like, did you have any gear?
He said I had nothing, No water,no food, shorts and AT shirt
there is a crater on top of South's sister.
OK. It's like this is early June in
the mountains. I know you're in Florida, but
like, you know, I've lived in mountain country for the last 20

(01:06:22):
something years and it's cold and there's still snow and I'm
and so he's, he just starts hiking up this mountain and, and
I'm like, wow. And I'm thinking like, this is
amazing spiritual experience he's having.
You know, I'm like, what were you thinking when when you were
walking up? And he goes, I was thinking, I
need to stop drinking so much beer.

(01:06:45):
So he so he gets to the top of the mountain and he spends the
night alone in AT shirt in shorts on top of a mountain in
early June, freezing his butt off.
But that was his turning point. That was his transformation.
That was his, you know, whateverwas going on.
And, and then he just just had this whole paradigm shift.

(01:07:07):
And I bring this up because I'm talking about the power of
nature, the power of not giving up, the power of sometimes it
takes something to jolt us out of our pattern, to jolt us out
of that stuckness in our head. And then after that, he started
hiking, he started climbing, he started taking his son who he

(01:07:28):
had had huge issues with. He started taking him and it
just like transformed his whole life.
And then flash forward later on when I start the ranch.
So a lot of the veterans in the community that had been my
clients got involved in the veterans ranch and he had a
friend who had a greenhouse business.
So you know, it just this idea of staying connected and

(01:07:48):
building community is so key. It's so important I.
Agree. And that's amazing.
That's a very inspiring story and I think each one of us that
have gone through something similar in our own way where we
just took a walk, didn't know why, didn't know what we were
supposed to do there, but trusted that it was going to be
what we needed. And I know we all have our

(01:08:08):
different walks and our different ways, but I think it's
important that we do spread morecommunity, give people more
opportunities to be a part of things just like what you built
and obviously what I'm trying tobuild now.
And hopefully with your help, we'll be successful at that.
But also before we go, I wanted to touch on your the book you're
writing, what you expect from that?

(01:08:29):
What? When do we get to see that?
How's that? So that is, I think at the
beginning you said coming soon. I wouldn't say it's coming real
soon, but my goal is to have thebook out by the 25th anniversary
of 911 because that was, you know, as we know, that was such
a Seminole event in in the livesof so many Americans in terms of
that, that course changed people's lives in the direction

(01:08:51):
of their life. And that was, you know, my
brother deploying me, deciding to start a not, you know, work
in the VA and start a nonprofit.So the book is the genre.
It's considered as professional memoir.
So it's about my journey as a military family member, as a
trauma therapist in the VA, and also the journey of starting a
nonprofit. So everything we've been talking

(01:09:12):
about here today, it's going to be, you know, in story form and,
you know, hopefully humorous, hopefully heartbreaking, you
know, but to really give a window into, you know, the
veteran experience and how do wemake a difference?
How do we help? And so this is just my story and
my contribution of what I've done to help people learn and to

(01:09:34):
have new ideas and, and realize like, oh, wow, there is a way to
fight veterans suicide. There is a way to build
community with vets. There is a way to heal, so
that's the content of it. And I hope that the final
chapters have to do with vets toYoga and the roll out of it and
how much of an impact we make onthe end.
That's going to be Book 2, Chris.
That's going. To be that's going to be the

(01:09:55):
secret. Excellent.
That's going to be his own book.Book 1 was up until.
Yeah, yeah, Pre Chris, this is the.
Pre Chris moment. Well, Allison, I can't tell you
how painful I am for you and your story and your influence
and your education. Everything that you've done is
so inspiring and I am stoked to know you and stoked to have you

(01:10:18):
as a friend. And thank you for taking time
out today. I know that I've stepped away
from podcasting for a little bitto kind of deal with some of my
personal issues, but your conversation with me was so
important. Honestly, people tell me when I
do a podcast with them that theyfeel like they went to a therapy
session with me and that's how Ifeel after having a conversation
with you today. So maybe I'm getting to see what

(01:10:39):
it's like to have somebody on the other side that loves them,
cares about them, and makes thema priority.
And so with the most utmost respect, thank you so much for
today. And I look forward to talking to
you many, many more times. And Volume 2, Episode 2, it's
coming up. Thank, thank you so much Chris.
I appreciate it. And I just want to say, you
know, God bless you, your listeners and just, you know,

(01:11:01):
I'm and I'm saying never give up.
Like you said, that's that's my motto to never give up, never
give up, never give up. People are there to support you.
So thank you, thank you. It's been an honor and a
pleasure. Thank you so much.
Awesome. We'll talk to you soon, Allison.
Have a wonderful day. All right, you too.
Take care.

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EP415: Alison Perry Sower - Change Starts With One Spark

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}EP415: Alison Perry Sower - Change Starts With One Spark