September 5, 2025 • 26 mins
Abbie and Adrian take a break from the very serious topics we've discussed on recent episodes to share our hot and Coldplay takes on a few of the stories that have been dominating the news lately.
From the kiss cam to Cracker Barrel—with rambling detours and digressions on Marilyn Monroe and Taylor Swift—there's something in this episode to interest or annoy almost anyone.
(We also say a few smart things about brands and community engagement, the societal impact of celebrity culture, and the balance between pop culture and private life. It's not all fun and games, you know!)
Read the transcript and notes for this episode on our website.
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Copper State of Mind, hosted by Abbie Fink and Dr. Adrian McIntyre, is brought to you by HMA Public Relations, a full-service public relations firm in Phoenix, AZ.
The show is recorded and produced by the team at Speed of Story, a strategic communications consultancy for PR agencies and marketing firms, and distributed by PHX.fm, the leading independent B2B podcast network in Arizona.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
May you live in interestingtimes. That's how the saying goes.
And we are living ininteresting times. As we've had some
very serious episodes andimportant guests here on the show,
the world around us hascontinued to be interesting and weird
and outrageous and ridiculousall at the same time. From the kiss
(00:25):
cam at a Coldplay concert toSydney Sweeney's jeans and genetics
to barrels filled withcrackers and a football player and
a pop star, the news headlinesthat aren't about difficult, challenging
political and economic issuesare about some of inawhile.Abby,what'sonyourmind?ie
(00:46):
Yeah, so we have had somereally great guests over the last
handful of episodes, whichmeant we were relying on their knowledge
and expertise. And you and Ihaven't had just a general conversation
about things. And I thought,well, wouldn't it be fun to kind
of talk about these headlinesthat have been driving the other
side of the news over the lasthandful of weeks. And, you know,
(01:10):
with no real moral of thestory or any real outcomes that are
expected at the end of thisrecording, but just kind of get out
there some of the things I'vebeen thinking about. So, let's talk
about Taylor and first. first.Congratulations. That's fantastic.
They announced theirengagement that immediately had the
(01:33):
dress that she wore off theshelves, a $400 dress or something,
no longer available in anystores, but hundreds of knockoffs
have now been populating. Soyay for the clothing manufacturers.
Not being a huge follower ofall of her ... well, I should say
(02:00):
I am a huge follower of all ofher smart, savvy business decisions
and things ... but some of thethings that make Taylor Taylor. Those
that are self-proclaimedSwifties were all very interested
in the fact actually13daysaftertheengagementhappenedanditwasonNationalDogDay.Doesthatmeanthey'regettingado?And Ithought,
(02:28):
mygoodness,people really, Idog? And I thought, my goodness people,
really. I mean, and this isnot young kids that are entrenched
with all of these. These areall ages are just fascin.,.i
(02:49):
Now this is fascinating to mebecause I'm not at all immersed in
pop culture. I'm super uncoolas my tween and early teen kids like
to point out. So it seems alla bit much of a muchness from over
here. I did notice in ourindustry there was outbreak of breathless
(03:11):
media commentary about whatthis means for the podcast industry,
that they announced theirengagement on his YouTube show, and
what the implications are foradvertising. And does this mean that
the medium has finally grownup? And all of it was just a bit
ridiculous, to be perfectlyhonest. I mean, I'm sure there are,
as with the dress there, thereare some fundamental business issues
(03:33):
playing out here. It justseems a bit overwrought to me. Am
I off base here? Even the factthat we're talking about these things
on our show sort of feels alittle bit, you know, lowbrow to
me. Not that we're elitist inany way, but it's like, okay, look,
I know that you can buy cottoncandy when you go to an event, but
you shouldn't have a steadydiet of it. It's just not good for
(03:55):
you.
Well, I think that there'smaybe something about the fact that
if you don't talk about it,are you just not, not, like how do
you not discuss these thingsthat are happening all around us?
And we could really do a verydeep dive into the marketing aspects
of what that announcement was.
(04:18):
Oh, let's not thoug
utwe'renot.But you you know,but you know, you mentioned about
podcasts. There was ofarticlesthat werecomingoutpro andcon,ofthenumberofemailpitchesjournalistsweregettingthatwerecapitalizingon.Now,ifyouare
aweddingrepresent on this.Now, if you represent a wedding planner,
(04:39):
perhaps your pitch isrelevant. But to pigeonhole somebody
into the Taylor conversationseems a little tailor made. (I know.)I
hadwecapitalizeonnewsofthedayforthethingsthatwedo,butthepartofthat,thatitmaybewe assumeisinherentinthatconversationis
(05:00):
ithastoberelevanttowho youare.Andso,sure,we that it maybe we
assume is inherent in thatconversation is it has to be relevant
to who you are. And so, sure,we could have all come up with a
very clever pitch to somehowbe actively a part of what was happening.
(05:21):
But was it relevant? Did itmake sense? And most often it's not
going to. But the attentionthat wheretheydecidedtodoitandhowtheydecidedtodoit,andallthatis,youknow,likely.Butthere'sno
but that to me really pointswhether it was calculated in terms
of how they announced it or,you know, where they decided to do
(05:46):
it and how they decided to doit, and all that is likely. But there's
no denying that she is abrilliant businesswoman. If she takes
advantagwhatshehasdonetoelevatenotonlywhathermusicrepresents,butthebusinessthatTaylorSwiftis.And she
(06:07):
represents, the good that shedoes in the communities, from the
places where she travels tofor her shows. There's no denying
that she is a smart, savvybusinesswoman. And what she has done
to elevate not only what hermusic represents, but the business
that Taylor Swift is. And so Ican applaud her for that. Now, the
(06:33):
other part of me is, let hergo off and plan her wedding and let's
leave her alone --
Well, all you have to do,apparently, is announce your engagement
here, Abbie, and then ...
Well, first I have to findsomeone to get engaged to. So that's
a topic for another podcast altogether.
That's another episode of adifferent show.
(06:54):
It's got something else on my mind.
Yeah. Right.So, years andyears ago, I read an essay on the
impossibility of being MarilynMonroe, and the writer was pointing
out that there was aparticular set of circumstances involving
the media, involving thepress, the paparazzi, the way in
(07:16):
which television and the newswere emerging and Marilyn Monroe
as a iconic figure carryingthe weight of femininity and sexuality
and, you know, all of thethings that sort of coalesced around
this very, very talented and Ithink, admittedly brilliant and troubled
person, as those often gotogether, made it simply impossible
(07:39):
to continue to be that, andwas sort of writing poetically about
her own tragic life throughthe lens of that. What's fascinating
to me is that celebrity hasevolved--certainly some people have
elevated the art--to a pointwhere there isn't the impossibility
of being Taylor Swift. And herfame is so much more just statistically,
(08:02):
numerically, through whateverlens you look at it. And yet here's
a person who, without knowing,and again, I'm a complete outsider,
so Swifties and non-Swiftiesalike probably hate everything I'm
saying, but seems to benavigating those things in a relatively
wholesome way. So, yay! Let'snot add to the pressure that causes
the impossibility of celebrityto be a life that tulyactuallynobodywantstolive.
(08:27):
live. When closetoit,yourealizehow muchunhappinessoftengoesalongwiththat.SoIwish
them nothingbutthebestand,andwishthatfor everybody.Quitefrankly,
Ithinkwedoterriblethingstothepeopleweputon pedestals.
Yeah, well, and that's it. Ithink that, you know, we've talked
about the role of influencersand having ownership of the responsibility
(08:47):
that that means. That peoplewill look to you and will rely on
you for and simply becauseyou've been elevated to that responsibility
in that role.nd,youknow,bothofthemtosome extentareinthatrolerightnow.And
I,you now. And I think they,at least again, outside looking in,
(09:09):
there is some acceptance ofthat responsibility and that they
are doing what they can tolive a life publicly thingsanddo
admired and shed good lightwhenit,youknow,whenit comesdowntoit,there's,youknow,they're
And when it comes down to it, they'rethemwell.And Ilookforwardtotheseother
(09:36):
wonderful life ahead. And asyou said, I do wish them well. And
I look forward to these otherlittle Easter eggs that everyone
seems to be thinking they'redropping of hin.'
Well, let me just say it isbrilliant, whether or not it's real,
to have created a brand and afollowing that does obsess over details
and look for Easter eggs, lookfor hidden messages, hidden meanings,
(09:59):
hidden clues. That, in and ofitself, is, as far as brand strategy
goes, just a stroke of geniusbecause you almost don't even have
to intentionally do thatanymore. People will figure stuff
out for you and cause a stir.
Yeah, somebody, I readsomething somewhere, someone said
that she should do similar toWilly Wonka and the Golden Ticket
(10:20):
and put, you know, weddinginvitations in some of her new album
and that, you know, those ofus that would go out to purchase
her album would have theopportunity to get the golden invitation
to her wedding. I'm like,okay, smart. Not gonna happen.
No.
But let's talk about CrackerBarrel, shall we?
Oh, if we must.
(10:40):
So I wa on the road to mysister's in California, and I swear
every billboard was a CrackerBarrel billboard, which I've driven
that road thousands of timesand never noticed. So whatever that
was called, my attention to ...
It's called the saliencyeffect. It's a well-known cognitive
bias. You will start to seethings once you are aware they exist
(11:01):
or when they're on your mind.
Yeah, so that story, aftermany, many, many, many years of what
their logo looks like, CrackerBarrel decides they are going to
modernize their logo andremove the iconic older gentleman
in the rocking chair andmodernize the font of the logo and
(11:22):
change the look. Andpractically within seconds of announcing
it, you know, "how could theydo this? What are they doing? Don't
they remember, this is wheremy favorite, my grandpa used to take
me for breakfast andblah,"blah, blah." Allegedly losing
millions of dollars overnightin customers and customer acoupledayslater
(11:44):
changetheirmindandthey'renotgoingtoreally changethelogoafterall.So,youknow,the.Wasita
PRstunt?Well,I was it a PRstunt? Well, I have a lot of opinions
about the idea of a PR stunt.It's a very expensive one if that's
(12:05):
in fact what they decided todo. But I think loyaltyofyourcustomerbaseandnotmakingdrastic
changesinordertogetanewaudiencewithout payingattentiontotheonethat'sbeenloyaltoyouallalong.AndallIkeptthinkingasI'mpassingallofthesebillboardsalongthewayisifin
(12:33):
facttheintentwastodothis,therewasasignificantamount ofnextstepsthatwouldhaveneededtohavebeendonetorolloutnewmenulooks,newlogoornew
billboards.Youknow,justallthethingsthatexistouttherethathavetheoldimageonit.Andnow,ofcourse,noneofthat'sgoingtohavetohappen.Thequestionisalways,youknow,isthePRpersonintheroomwhenthesebigdecisionsarebeingmade?IfthePRpeoplewereintheroom,youknow,whatdidtheyadvise?Ifthiswas,youknow,apublicitystunt,itbackfiredtotheextentthatitcosthimawholebunchofmoney.Buttheflipside,youandIwouldnotbetalkingaboutCrackerBarrel ifit,youknow,wasn'tmaking
(13:20):
people were in the room, the m
Unless we were on a road tripand it was still six hours to Meemaw's
house and it was dinner time.
Yeah.
I don't know, obviously, thetruth about any of these things.
Again, I just want to say Ithink the compulsion to talk about
these things when they happenis ... I'muneasy about it. Andat
(13:45):
the same time I do think it'sreally interesting. You know, it
wasn't that many years ago, 2018 or 19, that IHOP, the International
House of Pancakes, announcedthey were changing their name to
IHOB, the International Houseof Burgers. And that caused a massive
uproar and people talkingabout it, whatever. And it turns
out it really was just amarketing stunt to announce the new
(14:07):
menu item. It wasn't intendedto be a viral marketing campaign
necessarily, it was just atongue in cheek thing. But people
took it seriously, and thenthey rode the wave and they kind
of played that through. Ofcourse they were never changing their
name. That wasn't the point. Idon'tthink this is that, but I don't
know. It does seem like inthis situation there is a lot more
(14:30):
social, cultural, economic,political risk involved because of
the particular allegiancesthey were provoking. oftengo pastthe
surfaceandthink abouttheagenciesbehindallthis. You this.
You know, outtherethereareagencies,brandagencies,advertisingagencies,peopleintheworldI trafficin
(14:53):
who world I traffic in, whoare responsible for some disastrous
rebrands. And there's just awhole history on anewPepsilogothatcompletelybombsto,youknow,new
Coke. N
New Coke. That's where I was headed.
All these things, right? Justso many examples. And I didn't do
any prep for this, didn't lookup a list. I'm not going to sound
(15:15):
terribly smart here. I'm notgoing to run through those. But we're
aware that agencies have beenpaid a lot of money to fail spectacularly.
And sometimes I think aboutthat and I just wonder what is the
future of those folks? Do theyend up losing other business because
of their failure? What dotheir next new business pitches sound
(15:36):
like? "Right, well, we're thefolks that brought you the Cracker
Barrel flame-out..."
I remember several years ago,I had a new business presentation.
And typically when you go intothose things, you're talking about,
you know, this is thebrilliant campaign we conducted for
so-and-so, and this is theamazing thing we did for such-and-such.
And this client was like,"Well, that's great. What was the
(15:58):
one that didn't work? Tell meabout the one that failed. Tell me
about the one that you did,because that's really more telling
than, you know, all thewonderful things you did, because
I would expect you to bewonderful." And I'm like, well, that
was interesting. So maybethere is a badge of honor to say
this is my biggest failedaccount was my efforts to rebrand,
(16:19):
fill in the blank. But youknow, organizations that over time
have to look inward and see ifthey are still representative of
their values, their mission,what they stand for. And whether
that's a large nationalrestaurant or a small local mom and
(16:41):
pop shop, we all have lookingatourownbusinessphilosophiesanddoesitstillrepresentwhoweare?Youknow, whenIbought
When in,atthe end agency backat the end of 20 23, colorpalette,Ichangedsomethingsaboutwhoandhowwe
representedourselves. Butatthe coreofwhat weare,that'sexactlythe
(17:06):
same.Andthat'showwerolleditout. Wetalkedaboutalthoughthe
And that's how we rolled itout. We talked about although trustedyesterday,youcantrustus
today. Andsotheissueformeisn'tso muchthat,youknow,becausewe'retalkingabout
us today. And so the issue fordecidedtomakeachange.Itwas moreabout,and
(17:28):
maybe talking about CrackerBarrel, but theycameoutwithitandwhatwasthe
a change. It was more about,and maybe we'll learn this, what
happened before they came outwith it and what was the discussions
internally thatrewardwillbetomakethosechanges?Andso,youknow,it'llcomeout,it'llbeacasestudyinabrandingtextbooksoonenoughandit'llhavethebloggersandtheexperts,thecase studywritersthatweall,youknow,thoseofusinthebusinesspayattentiontowillhavesome
(18:03):
thoughtsaroundit.ButIlookatthatandyouknow,tothesamethingas,youknow,whatwerethe discussionsthatledyoutothatdecisionandtheninthiscase,whatwasthenextday'sdiscussionsthatledyoutosay,oops,nevermind,we'repullingitallback.Anddidwecalculatetheriskofbothofthosethings?Butweallwatchsuperbowlcommercials
(18:29):
andyoucan'thelpbutsayifthatmadeit to
that decision and then in thiscase, what was the next day's discussions
that led you to say, oops,never mind, we're pulling it all
back. hardtoknow.SB,r'
You know, you raise a reallygreat point here. And maybe this
is where we can end thediscussion is the issue of community
(18:51):
relations and really engagingwith stakeholders, which is a terribly
overused, dehumanized way totalk about a really necessary and
messy process. One of thethings that this news event has me
worry about is related to thisidea that you don't negotiate with
terrorists. Meaning,CracBarrelhasnowshownthatit'spossibletomakethis kindofdramaticreversalsimplyduetoacertainamountof
outragethatdoesinandofoutrage. That in and of itself does
have me question whether ornot this bysomethingelse.Andwhat'smissingintheconversationformeisany
kindofeducation,communityengagement,takingastandfor something,explainingthethinkingbehindit.
Andas a stand maybethatneedstohavehappened thinking behind it.
And as you say, maybe thatneeds to have happened before this
dramatic announcement, ormaybe they did all that and we just
don't know it because someidiot with a big platform and a loud
voice started ranting about itand then other less informed idiots
joined the choir. I don'tknow. We've seen companies make fairly
dramatic changes in theirstance on issues and haven't done
as much of this kind ofcommunity engagement education as
I would haveliked to see. Inthe last couple of years, companies
have withdrawn theircommitment to DEI, to the environment,
to LGBTQ support, to all kindsof things. Some of them (Target)
have paid a price economicallyfor that. Others (Tractor Supply)
seem to have maybe morealigned themselves with a core customer
base. But all of these issuesare fraught with potential downside
risks. An to not do that kind of thinking out loud seems to me
to be the missed opportunity.Look, I'm not thinking of anyone
in particular here, but ifcoming out and saying, "you know
what, for the past eight or 12years, we were paying lip service
to something that it turns outis not central to our mission. And
while we continue to wish thebest to all of XYZ folks, we're going
to focus on our main thing andthis is wh." O" "a
(21:24):
But they should, right? Theyshould come and ask us.
Well, I don't know that theyshould. I mean, having an anthropologist
in the room is probably aterrible idea. We'll want them to
do deeply embedded researchand take three years and then write
a whole book about it beforeanything can actually happen. But
in any case, I do think thatthe social interactions that make
brand values real in the worldare the part that's at least missing
(21:48):
from the story. Maybe ithappened and we don't hear about
it, but it seems to me likethat's the opportunity. If Cracker
Barrel wants to change itsbrand, first of all, who cares? But
second of all, a lot of peopledo care. So have that conversation
folksanddon'tdoitaslikeasmarmymarketingfocusgroup marketing
(22:08):
focus group kind of a thing.Cracker thinkofotherbrandswhoarenotin
I think of other brands whoare not in any way related to these
controversies. But you and Iwere just chatting earlier about
Love's Travel Stops. A familybusiness, headquartered in Oklahoma
City, one of the largestprivately owned companies in the
(22:32):
United States. They're in thetop 20, I think. It's now run by
the three kids of thefounders, stop,youcanget phenomenon.
If you are a long distancetrucker, you know Love's Travel Stops
as a place where you can stop,you can get a shower, you can get
something to eat. There's allkinds of... And of course they're
not the only one. But thiscomes to mind. If they wanted to
(22:56):
make a change and, example,itwas assillyastheywantedtochange thelogofrom
thatyellowthingwiththeheartandtheywantedtomake the
heart. They wanted to make itsomething else more modern. Maybe
that thatthey spark such anuproar. But I would hope that they
engage their community. And Ioradepartmentstoreorretailerofan
CrackerBar re l
(23:20):
Well, and we won't know.
We won't know.
We may know again if they comeout with it. But your point earlier
with the social issues and,you know, live your values out loud,
right? If we're going to saythese things and we stand behind
them and to the extent that wemight have to suffer the consequences
of our principles. If you knowthose businesses that have dialed
(23:44):
back their DE&I initiativesare getting backlash for it. On the
hand, there areplenty plentyof people that are in support of
that and theybehavior.Sowhereveryou'regoingtobewhereveryou'regonna to
be, wherever you're gonnafall, you have to... I think it's
more about the commitment tothe effort as well as the final outcome.
(24:10):
inthisparticular case,becauseitbecamesuch apublicoutcry, is whatdid
youdobeforehand? Didyouask?Didyou talk about,didyoumarkettest?Didyoupay
homagetothosethathavesupportedyourbusinessalltheseyears market
test? Did youtobethegotolocation ontheroadanytimeyou
(24:31):
travelsomewhere?Andifnot,thenwhat doesthatsaytoyourcustomerbaseabout
go-to location on the roadanytime you travel somewhere? And
if not, then what does thatsay to your customer base about what
you care about more? And ifit's, you know, profit over people
or whatever it might be, Ithink this Cracker Barrel scenario
(24:52):
is going to be a veryinteresting case study to watch out
for as and, and hopefully wecan get, you know, those of us that
are in the business will findit interesting to know exactly what
ended up happening. But whereI see all of these kind of headline
(25:17):
grabbing activities over thelast handful of weeks is maybe part
of the reason that they aregetting so much attention is that
it is a break from some of themore challenging things that we're
dealing with. Some of the moretroublesome headlines around what's
(25:38):
happening, not only here inabo ut
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of Copper State of Mind.
If you enjoyed theconversation, please share it with
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State of Mind in ApplePodcasts, Spotify or any other podcast
app. We publish new episodesevery other Friday. CopperState
of Mind is brought to you byHMA Public Relations, the oldest
continuously operating PR firmin Arizona. The sisrecordedandproducedbytheteamatSpeedofStory,aB2B
communicationsfirminPhoenix,anddistributedbyPHX FM,
distributed by PHX.fm, theleading independent B2B podcast hereatSpeedofStoryandPHXFM,
of us here at Speed of Storyand PHX.fm, for Adrian McIntyre.
Thanks for listening and forsharing the show with others if you
choose to do so. W
May you live in interestingtimes. That's how the saying goes.
And we are living ininteresting times. As we've had some
very serious episodes andimportant guests here on the show,
the world around us hascontinued to be interesting and weird
and outrageous and ridiculousall at the same time. From the kiss
(00:25):
cam at a Coldplay concert toSydney Sweeney's jeans and genetics
to barrels filled withcrackers and a football player and
a pop star, the news headlinesthat aren't about difficult, challenging
political and economic issuesare about some of inawhile.Abby,what'sonyourmind?ie
(00:46):
Yeah, so we have had somereally great guests over the last
handful of episodes, whichmeant we were relying on their knowledge
and expertise. And you and Ihaven't had just a general conversation
about things. And I thought,well, wouldn't it be fun to kind
of talk about these headlinesthat have been driving the other
side of the news over the lasthandful of weeks. And, you know,
(01:10):
with no real moral of thestory or any real outcomes that are
expected at the end of thisrecording, but just kind of get out
there some of the things I'vebeen thinking about. So, let's talk
about Taylor and first. first.Congratulations. That's fantastic.
They announced theirengagement that immediately had the
(01:33):
dress that she wore off theshelves, a $400 dress or something,
no longer available in anystores, but hundreds of knockoffs
have now been populating. Soyay for the clothing manufacturers.
Not being a huge follower ofall of her ... well, I should say
(02:00):
I am a huge follower of all ofher smart, savvy business decisions
and things ... but some of thethings that make Taylor Taylor. Those
that are self-proclaimedSwifties were all very interested
in the fact actually13daysaftertheengagementhappenedanditwasonNationalDogDay.Doesthatmeanthey'regettingado?And Ithought,
(02:28):
mygoodness,people really, Idog? And I thought, my goodness people,
really. I mean, and this isnot young kids that are entrenched
with all of these. These areall ages are just fascin.,.i
(02:49):
Now this is fascinating to mebecause I'm not at all immersed in
pop culture. I'm super uncoolas my tween and early teen kids like
to point out. So it seems alla bit much of a muchness from over
here. I did notice in ourindustry there was outbreak of breathless
(03:11):
media commentary about whatthis means for the podcast industry,
that they announced theirengagement on his YouTube show, and
what the implications are foradvertising. And does this mean that
the medium has finally grownup? And all of it was just a bit
ridiculous, to be perfectlyhonest. I mean, I'm sure there are,
as with the dress there, thereare some fundamental business issues
(03:33):
playing out here. It justseems a bit overwrought to me. Am
I off base here? Even the factthat we're talking about these things
on our show sort of feels alittle bit, you know, lowbrow to
me. Not that we're elitist inany way, but it's like, okay, look,
I know that you can buy cottoncandy when you go to an event, but
you shouldn't have a steadydiet of it. It's just not good for
(03:55):
you.
Well, I think that there'smaybe something about the fact that
if you don't talk about it,are you just not, not, like how do
you not discuss these thingsthat are happening all around us?
And we could really do a verydeep dive into the marketing aspects
of what that announcement was.
(04:18):
Oh, let's not thoug
utwe'renot.But you you know,but you know, you mentioned about
podcasts. There was ofarticlesthat werecomingoutpro andcon,ofthenumberofemailpitchesjournalistsweregettingthatwerecapitalizingon.Now,ifyouare
aweddingrepresent on this.Now, if you represent a wedding planner,
(04:39):
perhaps your pitch isrelevant. But to pigeonhole somebody
into the Taylor conversationseems a little tailor made. (I know.)I
hadwecapitalizeonnewsofthedayforthethingsthatwedo,butthepartofthat,thatitmaybewe assumeisinherentinthatconversationis
(05:00):
ithastoberelevanttowho youare.Andso,sure,we that it maybe we
assume is inherent in thatconversation is it has to be relevant
to who you are. And so, sure,we could have all come up with a
very clever pitch to somehowbe actively a part of what was happening.
(05:21):
But was it relevant? Did itmake sense? And most often it's not
going to. But the attentionthat wheretheydecidedtodoitandhowtheydecidedtodoit,andallthatis,youknow,likely.Butthere'sno
but that to me really pointswhether it was calculated in terms
of how they announced it or,you know, where they decided to do
(05:46):
it and how they decided to doit, and all that is likely. But there's
no denying that she is abrilliant businesswoman. If she takes
advantagwhatshehasdonetoelevatenotonlywhathermusicrepresents,butthebusinessthatTaylorSwiftis.And she
(06:07):
represents, the good that shedoes in the communities, from the
places where she travels tofor her shows. There's no denying
that she is a smart, savvybusinesswoman. And what she has done
to elevate not only what hermusic represents, but the business
that Taylor Swift is. And so Ican applaud her for that. Now, the
(06:33):
other part of me is, let hergo off and plan her wedding and let's
leave her alone --
Well, all you have to do,apparently, is announce your engagement
here, Abbie, and then ...
Well, first I have to findsomeone to get engaged to. So that's
a topic for another podcast altogether.
That's another episode of adifferent show.
(06:54):
It's got something else on my mind.
Yeah. Right.So, years andyears ago, I read an essay on the
impossibility of being MarilynMonroe, and the writer was pointing
out that there was aparticular set of circumstances involving
the media, involving thepress, the paparazzi, the way in
(07:16):
which television and the newswere emerging and Marilyn Monroe
as a iconic figure carryingthe weight of femininity and sexuality
and, you know, all of thethings that sort of coalesced around
this very, very talented and Ithink, admittedly brilliant and troubled
person, as those often gotogether, made it simply impossible
(07:39):
to continue to be that, andwas sort of writing poetically about
her own tragic life throughthe lens of that. What's fascinating
to me is that celebrity hasevolved--certainly some people have
elevated the art--to a pointwhere there isn't the impossibility
of being Taylor Swift. And herfame is so much more just statistically,
(08:02):
numerically, through whateverlens you look at it. And yet here's
a person who, without knowing,and again, I'm a complete outsider,
so Swifties and non-Swiftiesalike probably hate everything I'm
saying, but seems to benavigating those things in a relatively
wholesome way. So, yay! Let'snot add to the pressure that causes
the impossibility of celebrityto be a life that tulyactuallynobodywantstolive.
(08:27):
live. When closetoit,yourealizehow muchunhappinessoftengoesalongwiththat.SoIwish
them nothingbutthebestand,andwishthatfor everybody.Quitefrankly,
Ithinkwedoterriblethingstothepeopleweputon pedestals.
Yeah, well, and that's it. Ithink that, you know, we've talked
about the role of influencersand having ownership of the responsibility
(08:47):
that that means. That peoplewill look to you and will rely on
you for and simply becauseyou've been elevated to that responsibility
in that role.nd,youknow,bothofthemtosome extentareinthatrolerightnow.And
I,you now. And I think they,at least again, outside looking in,
(09:09):
there is some acceptance ofthat responsibility and that they
are doing what they can tolive a life publicly thingsanddo
admired and shed good lightwhenit,youknow,whenit comesdowntoit,there's,youknow,they're
And when it comes down to it, they'rethemwell.And Ilookforwardtotheseother
(09:36):
wonderful life ahead. And asyou said, I do wish them well. And
I look forward to these otherlittle Easter eggs that everyone
seems to be thinking they'redropping of hin.'
Well, let me just say it isbrilliant, whether or not it's real,
to have created a brand and afollowing that does obsess over details
and look for Easter eggs, lookfor hidden messages, hidden meanings,
(09:59):
hidden clues. That, in and ofitself, is, as far as brand strategy
goes, just a stroke of geniusbecause you almost don't even have
to intentionally do thatanymore. People will figure stuff
out for you and cause a stir.
Yeah, somebody, I readsomething somewhere, someone said
that she should do similar toWilly Wonka and the Golden Ticket
(10:20):
and put, you know, weddinginvitations in some of her new album
and that, you know, those ofus that would go out to purchase
her album would have theopportunity to get the golden invitation
to her wedding. I'm like,okay, smart. Not gonna happen.
No.
But let's talk about CrackerBarrel, shall we?
Oh, if we must.
(10:40):
So I wa on the road to mysister's in California, and I swear
every billboard was a CrackerBarrel billboard, which I've driven
that road thousands of timesand never noticed. So whatever that
was called, my attention to ...
It's called the saliencyeffect. It's a well-known cognitive
bias. You will start to seethings once you are aware they exist
(11:01):
or when they're on your mind.
Yeah, so that story, aftermany, many, many, many years of what
their logo looks like, CrackerBarrel decides they are going to
modernize their logo andremove the iconic older gentleman
in the rocking chair andmodernize the font of the logo and
(11:22):
change the look. Andpractically within seconds of announcing
it, you know, "how could theydo this? What are they doing? Don't
they remember, this is wheremy favorite, my grandpa used to take
me for breakfast andblah,"blah, blah." Allegedly losing
millions of dollars overnightin customers and customer acoupledayslater
(11:44):
changetheirmindandthey'renotgoingtoreally changethelogoafterall.So,youknow,the.Wasita
PRstunt?Well,I was it a PRstunt? Well, I have a lot of opinions
about the idea of a PR stunt.It's a very expensive one if that's
(12:05):
in fact what they decided todo. But I think loyaltyofyourcustomerbaseandnotmakingdrastic
changesinordertogetanewaudiencewithout payingattentiontotheonethat'sbeenloyaltoyouallalong.AndallIkeptthinkingasI'mpassingallofthesebillboardsalongthewayisifin
(12:33):
facttheintentwastodothis,therewasasignificantamount ofnextstepsthatwouldhaveneededtohavebeendonetorolloutnewmenulooks,newlogoornew
billboards.Youknow,justallthethingsthatexistouttherethathavetheoldimageonit.Andnow,ofcourse,noneofthat'sgoingtohavetohappen.Thequestionisalways,youknow,isthePRpersonintheroomwhenthesebigdecisionsarebeingmade?IfthePRpeoplewereintheroom,youknow,whatdidtheyadvise?Ifthiswas,youknow,apublicitystunt,itbackfiredtotheextentthatitcosthimawholebunchofmoney.Buttheflipside,youandIwouldnotbetalkingaboutCrackerBarrel ifit,youknow,wasn'tmaking
(13:20):
people were in the room, the m
Unless we were on a road tripand it was still six hours to Meemaw's
house and it was dinner time.
Yeah.
I don't know, obviously, thetruth about any of these things.
Again, I just want to say Ithink the compulsion to talk about
these things when they happenis ... I'muneasy about it. Andat
(13:45):
the same time I do think it'sreally interesting. You know, it
wasn't that many years ago, 2018 or 19, that IHOP, the International
House of Pancakes, announcedthey were changing their name to
IHOB, the International Houseof Burgers. And that caused a massive
uproar and people talkingabout it, whatever. And it turns
out it really was just amarketing stunt to announce the new
(14:07):
menu item. It wasn't intendedto be a viral marketing campaign
necessarily, it was just atongue in cheek thing. But people
took it seriously, and thenthey rode the wave and they kind
of played that through. Ofcourse they were never changing their
name. That wasn't the point. Idon'tthink this is that, but I don't
know. It does seem like inthis situation there is a lot more
(14:30):
social, cultural, economic,political risk involved because of
the particular allegiancesthey were provoking. oftengo pastthe
surfaceandthink abouttheagenciesbehindallthis. You this.
You know, outtherethereareagencies,brandagencies,advertisingagencies,peopleintheworldI trafficin
(14:53):
who world I traffic in, whoare responsible for some disastrous
rebrands. And there's just awhole history on anewPepsilogothatcompletelybombsto,youknow,new
Coke. N
New Coke. That's where I was headed.
All these things, right? Justso many examples. And I didn't do
any prep for this, didn't lookup a list. I'm not going to sound
(15:15):
terribly smart here. I'm notgoing to run through those. But we're
aware that agencies have beenpaid a lot of money to fail spectacularly.
And sometimes I think aboutthat and I just wonder what is the
future of those folks? Do theyend up losing other business because
of their failure? What dotheir next new business pitches sound
(15:36):
like? "Right, well, we're thefolks that brought you the Cracker
Barrel flame-out..."
I remember several years ago,I had a new business presentation.
And typically when you go intothose things, you're talking about,
you know, this is thebrilliant campaign we conducted for
so-and-so, and this is theamazing thing we did for such-and-such.
And this client was like,"Well, that's great. What was the
(15:58):
one that didn't work? Tell meabout the one that failed. Tell me
about the one that you did,because that's really more telling
than, you know, all thewonderful things you did, because
I would expect you to bewonderful." And I'm like, well, that
was interesting. So maybethere is a badge of honor to say
this is my biggest failedaccount was my efforts to rebrand,
(16:19):
fill in the blank. But youknow, organizations that over time
have to look inward and see ifthey are still representative of
their values, their mission,what they stand for. And whether
that's a large nationalrestaurant or a small local mom and
(16:41):
pop shop, we all have lookingatourownbusinessphilosophiesanddoesitstillrepresentwhoweare?Youknow, whenIbought
When in,atthe end agency backat the end of 20 23, colorpalette,Ichangedsomethingsaboutwhoandhowwe
representedourselves. Butatthe coreofwhat weare,that'sexactlythe
(17:06):
same.Andthat'showwerolleditout. Wetalkedaboutalthoughthe
And that's how we rolled itout. We talked about although trustedyesterday,youcantrustus
today. Andsotheissueformeisn'tso muchthat,youknow,becausewe'retalkingabout
us today. And so the issue fordecidedtomakeachange.Itwas moreabout,and
(17:28):
maybe talking about CrackerBarrel, but theycameoutwithitandwhatwasthe
a change. It was more about,and maybe we'll learn this, what
happened before they came outwith it and what was the discussions
internally thatrewardwillbetomakethosechanges?Andso,youknow,it'llcomeout,it'llbeacasestudyinabrandingtextbooksoonenoughandit'llhavethebloggersandtheexperts,thecase studywritersthatweall,youknow,thoseofusinthebusinesspayattentiontowillhavesome
(18:03):
thoughtsaroundit.ButIlookatthatandyouknow,tothesamethingas,youknow,whatwerethe discussionsthatledyoutothatdecisionandtheninthiscase,whatwasthenextday'sdiscussionsthatledyoutosay,oops,nevermind,we'repullingitallback.Anddidwecalculatetheriskofbothofthosethings?Butweallwatchsuperbowlcommercials
(18:29):
andyoucan'thelpbutsayifthatmadeit to
that decision and then in thiscase, what was the next day's discussions
that led you to say, oops,never mind, we're pulling it all
back. hardtoknow.SB,r'
You know, you raise a reallygreat point here. And maybe this
is where we can end thediscussion is the issue of community
(18:51):
relations and really engagingwith stakeholders, which is a terribly
overused, dehumanized way totalk about a really necessary and
messy process. One of thethings that this news event has me
worry about is related to thisidea that you don't negotiate with
terrorists. Meaning,CracBarrelhasnowshownthatit'spossibletomakethis kindofdramaticreversalsimplyduetoacertainamountof
outragethatdoesinandofoutrage. That in and of itself does
have me question whether ornot this bysomethingelse.Andwhat'smissingintheconversationformeisany
kindofeducation,communityengagement,takingastandfor something,explainingthethinkingbehindit.
Andas a stand maybethatneedstohavehappened thinking behind it.
And as you say, maybe thatneeds to have happened before this
dramatic announcement, ormaybe they did all that and we just
don't know it because someidiot with a big platform and a loud
voice started ranting about itand then other less informed idiots
joined the choir. I don'tknow. We've seen companies make fairly
dramatic changes in theirstance on issues and haven't done
as much of this kind ofcommunity engagement education as
I would haveliked to see. Inthe last couple of years, companies
have withdrawn theircommitment to DEI, to the environment,
to LGBTQ support, to all kindsof things. Some of them (Target)
have paid a price economicallyfor that. Others (Tractor Supply)
seem to have maybe morealigned themselves with a core customer
base. But all of these issuesare fraught with potential downside
risks. An to not do that kind of thinking out loud seems to me
to be the missed opportunity.Look, I'm not thinking of anyone
in particular here, but ifcoming out and saying, "you know
what, for the past eight or 12years, we were paying lip service
to something that it turns outis not central to our mission. And
while we continue to wish thebest to all of XYZ folks, we're going
to focus on our main thing andthis is wh." O" "a
(21:24):
But they should, right? Theyshould come and ask us.
Well, I don't know that theyshould. I mean, having an anthropologist
in the room is probably aterrible idea. We'll want them to
do deeply embedded researchand take three years and then write
a whole book about it beforeanything can actually happen. But
in any case, I do think thatthe social interactions that make
brand values real in the worldare the part that's at least missing
(21:48):
from the story. Maybe ithappened and we don't hear about
it, but it seems to me likethat's the opportunity. If Cracker
Barrel wants to change itsbrand, first of all, who cares? But
second of all, a lot of peopledo care. So have that conversation
folksanddon'tdoitaslikeasmarmymarketingfocusgroup marketing
(22:08):
focus group kind of a thing.Cracker thinkofotherbrandswhoarenotin
I think of other brands whoare not in any way related to these
controversies. But you and Iwere just chatting earlier about
Love's Travel Stops. A familybusiness, headquartered in Oklahoma
City, one of the largestprivately owned companies in the
(22:32):
United States. They're in thetop 20, I think. It's now run by
the three kids of thefounders, stop,youcanget phenomenon.
If you are a long distancetrucker, you know Love's Travel Stops
as a place where you can stop,you can get a shower, you can get
something to eat. There's allkinds of... And of course they're
not the only one. But thiscomes to mind. If they wanted to
(22:56):
make a change and, example,itwas assillyastheywantedtochange thelogofrom
thatyellowthingwiththeheartandtheywantedtomake the
heart. They wanted to make itsomething else more modern. Maybe
that thatthey spark such anuproar. But I would hope that they
engage their community. And Ioradepartmentstoreorretailerofan
CrackerBar re l
(23:20):
Well, and we won't know.
We won't know.
We may know again if they comeout with it. But your point earlier
with the social issues and,you know, live your values out loud,
right? If we're going to saythese things and we stand behind
them and to the extent that wemight have to suffer the consequences
of our principles. If you knowthose businesses that have dialed
(23:44):
back their DE&I initiativesare getting backlash for it. On the
hand, there areplenty plentyof people that are in support of
that and theybehavior.Sowhereveryou'regoingtobewhereveryou'regonna to
be, wherever you're gonnafall, you have to... I think it's
more about the commitment tothe effort as well as the final outcome.
(24:10):
inthisparticular case,becauseitbecamesuch apublicoutcry, is whatdid
youdobeforehand? Didyouask?Didyou talk about,didyoumarkettest?Didyoupay
homagetothosethathavesupportedyourbusinessalltheseyears market
test? Did youtobethegotolocation ontheroadanytimeyou
(24:31):
travelsomewhere?Andifnot,thenwhat doesthatsaytoyourcustomerbaseabout
go-to location on the roadanytime you travel somewhere? And
if not, then what does thatsay to your customer base about what
you care about more? And ifit's, you know, profit over people
or whatever it might be, Ithink this Cracker Barrel scenario
(24:52):
is going to be a veryinteresting case study to watch out
for as and, and hopefully wecan get, you know, those of us that
are in the business will findit interesting to know exactly what
ended up happening. But whereI see all of these kind of headline
(25:17):
grabbing activities over thelast handful of weeks is maybe part
of the reason that they aregetting so much attention is that
it is a break from some of themore challenging things that we're
dealing with. Some of the moretroublesome headlines around what's
(25:38):
happening, not only here inabo ut
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of Copper State of Mind.
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