May 23, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode, Dale Sutherland shares his powerful journey from childhood panic attacks to confronting life-threatening situations as an undercover police officer. Discover how he learned to face fear head-on by blending cognitive behavioral therapy techniques with his faith. Whether you struggle with anxiety or simply want to understand how to live courageously despite fear, Dale’s story offers practical lessons and encouragement for anyone walking through their own fears.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Cops, criminals and Christ podcast,
where we will hear interestingstories and unique perspectives
about the work of cops, theworld of criminals and how faith
plays a role in the lives ofboth.
Dale Sutherland was anundercover cop and a pastor for
many years and will shareinteresting stories and
perspectives and interviewguests.
(00:22):
I'm your host, his daughterKristen Kru.
Come join us to learn moreabout these powerful forces and
how they shape the lives ofpeople just like you.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Welcome back.
Today we are going to betalking about fear and I think
it's super interesting becauseit relates to literally every
single person.
I thought you were gas, yourmouth was a gape in awe of what
I was saying, but you wereyawning Um.
This is relatable to everyperson and I think it's
interesting that our brain iswired to experience fear, to
(00:55):
perceive threats.
So, like if we see a bear walkup to us, we want to feel fear
to make us run away.
But often our brain perceives athreat like a bear for making a
phone call we don't want to do,or going in for you as an
undercover cop true, true,tangible fear of guns and danger
and all those things, and alsoyou've experienced fear in
(01:16):
things that might not make asmuch rational, logical sense to
the outside world.
So I think it's a reallyimportant topic to dive into.
What are your initial thoughtson fear for the people?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
I'd say that, if you are just starting to listen,
whether you're a religiousperson or not a religious person
, I think this is one of themost common things we all fight,
and when I grew up, I thoughttough guys didn't, but that was
a lie.
I was wrong, and I've alwaysfought this and I still fight it
(01:53):
, and so I think there's somethings we should talk about that
will help you, whateverperspective you're at, from
somebody who's been in like whatyou would consider legitimately
dangerous situations comparedto the normal everyday things
that scare us all.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
So, as your daughter, I have a little bit more
background knowledge and I willspill it all.
But you experienced fear as ahuman before, before becoming a
police officer, which seemssilly.
If you already were accustomedto kind of some fears in just
average life, can you speak tothat?
What?
(02:29):
What growing up was like withdifferent fears before even
entering true fear?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Yeah, my, my mother tells me that she remembers me
having what we would call, now,panic attack.
When I was like four years old,I was at the top of the step
somewhere we were living, andshe said that I just I don't
know froze and saw what shethinks was a panic attack.
So I can remember being reallyyoung, though, and having a lot
of fear just at certain times,because, remember, like all of
(02:57):
us, we have these anxiousmoments.
And then you hate yourself andyou think I'm anxious all the
time, nobody else like me.
That isn't true.
Anxiety comes and goes.
For people it's like water,it's like the ocean.
It comes in and goes back out.
Because, of God's grace toeverybody, it's peaks and it
goes away Not completelynecessarily, but anyway.
(03:18):
So we would go through.
I would go through times.
Now, when you look back, wewent to five different
elementary schools, threedifferent junior highs, three
different high schools.
It's not really that confusingthat you say, oh, you suffered
some anxiety during those times.
I mean that seems reasonablenow it's talking about, but the
time nobody had anxiety or fear,unless you were they wouldn't
(03:40):
label it as that.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
No, yeah, right, we didn't believe that right?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
oh, no, no, no, yeah, yeah, just yeah.
I can remember my dad saying tome yeah, he just really could
not understand, uh, the way Ifelt about now is about my fears
or whatever I've.
I've confided in him in thesixth grade or something.
I remember him saying it'sreally hard to love you when you
, you know, tell me these things.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Did he say that yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, he was
serious too.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
He was totally disgusted with me and you still
remember it.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah, I mean I can't say I lost any sleep over it
last week and I love my dad buthe's dead now.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
But yeah, sure you remember stuff like that
misconception, that that, likejust you know, do better, get
better, and that's not the case,which is why I think it'd be
good to talk today about some ofthe tools you've found that
have helped you.
And for anyone listening thatfeels like that's not something
I struggle with or that's notthe more you tap in, you're like
either you or someone rightnext to you or in another season
(04:38):
of life or circumstance in life, you're going to be hit with it
if you haven't yet.
So we all need tools in ourtool belt for ourselves and our
loved ones, and certainly ourkids, to help us walk through it
.
So what?
about as a police officer, youknow we all can envision all the
things that were fearful.
What brought you true fear inthose years?
Speaker 3 (04:59):
At the police department.
What scared me, you know, whenI first became a policeman I was
in uniform and I was out andaround.
I would say and this is howsilly the mind is I was more
fearful of not being accepted bythe other cops, not being
respected in the street, than Iwas of the street Insanity.
You know, I wasn't afraid.
(05:20):
I don't remember ever being,you know, petrified of firearms
or petrified of of of normalpolice stuff, Even when I'd
watch like movies like I, youknow, it's not like now I
couldn't watch something about achild getting hurt or whatever.
All these grandkids I couldn'twatch.
I just don't want to watch.
But it wasn't like then Icouldn't watch a video about a
(05:41):
policeman getting shot orsomething.
I could.
No, it was no problem, I justthought how I'd get around it.
But what really scared me waswhether or not people would
still like me, whether or not Icould still do a good job, all
those kind of normal things.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah, that makes sense, and it's also interesting
just how the brain works thatsome things that literally all
of society would say that'sworthy of your fear wasn't as
scary to you as the things thatwe feel like we shouldn't be
worried about.
But you also and maybe this ispulling back the curtain too far
, but with you not wanting towatch kids get hurt like you.
(06:14):
You really don't like kids.
I mean, who likes a baby crying?
But it brings stress to you.
But am I allowed to say that adoctor once identified that
through all your search warrantsand things of being in hard
places where kids were kind ofin the crossfire of your arrest,
that somehow impacted you?
It's not for no reason.
You were around a lot of upsetchildren as you help them be
(06:37):
safe from their adult.
Would you say that's true andthat has impacted your future?
I mean it was interesting.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
I was talking to a doctor, a psychologist, and I
was telling him about.
To me it just seems insane,like I could watch, like right
now, to see.
Sometimes even MMA would botherme when they would beat a guy.
I feel like it should.
When they would actually the guyis down and they just continue
to beat on him.
Or if I watch a, I rememberseeing a couple of things where
(07:07):
some group of girls jumpedanother kid, you know, beat a
real bad.
I just I can't watch it.
I think in a good way nobodyshould watch it.
But in a but in another way itreally bothered me.
So he said it could be PTSD.
Now you know, I don't thinkI've done anything that deserves
that.
I mean that should be reserved.
That classic case to me shouldbe reserved for guys who've,
like, shot the wrong person orlost a child.
(07:27):
I just don't want to everdiminish that real pain that
people go through compared towhat I've seen.
But but I but I would say thatthat was interesting to me to
think of.
Maybe that stuff did affect me,that it bothered me more than I
.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yes, yeah, I think we should push back on that a
little bit.
It's understandable you feelthat way.
I want to honor people that youdeem worthy of PTSD, but PTSD
is a DSM diagnosis with likefive symptoms that you could get
from a menagerie of reasons.
But, it is, you know, like ourkids from hard places.
Some of them have beendiagnosed with it and it doesn't
(07:59):
define you, but it certainly isa real thing that any kind of
complex chronic heart.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
You know you come at this and we?
This is the one we, as soon aswe talk about anxiety, worry,
fear, whatever term I usematters, because in my
generation I was talking to menand I said, man, you're anxious.
Almost every man would be likeyou just don't want to identify
with that.
But if I said, man, you worrytoo much, yeah, they'd be like
yeah, take out the notepad,ready to write you see what I
mean, or like stress would beacceptable.
(08:24):
Stress acceptable PTSD Pressure,what that's for, like soldiers,
for people who've been through,you know, terrible traumas,
children, and really I meanhonestly, let's not diminish
that Like to me.
I level respect for those thathave suffered mentally but, as
you, you say it is justfoolishness because of course,
people can get PTSD other ways.
(08:45):
I mean, I'm not a doctor, butyeah, you know, through terrible
trauma.
That can happen and our traumais perceived a lot, so it's
weird, but the human bodyresponds to it differently.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
That'll be something I asked the Lord one day.
It's just like kind of themystery of risk, how two people
can go through the same thingand one not be impacted and one
be, you know, incrediblyimpacted for the duration of
their life, and how the brain ismalleable with all that stuff.
But I think you do have a pointthat like we throw around PTSD
or like OCD, ocd because I watchthat's not OCD, ocd is real.
You know there's things likethis that we shouldn't throw
(09:17):
around beyond what reason.
But it also is a real, realdiagnosis that can be helped.
So through this journey youhave kind of tapped into CBT
cognitive behavioral therapy.
Do you feel like one of thethings that provided the most
tools for you to help with fear?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
So there's, first of all, I would say, my walk with
the Lord and my knowledge ofscripture has really helped me
to build a basis, like abiblical framework, to
understand what's going on withme, to accept Christ's love,
even when the rest of the worldthinks you're stupid, all those
type of things and to realizeChrist at work in me, that he
(09:55):
loves me.
All those things are critical.
And knowing God's word,constantly knowing God's word,
is like that ability.
So, with changing your thinking, you need to also put in good
thoughts.
You just don't want to take outthe bad, you want to put in
good.
And I would just say thescriptures are supernatural,
literally.
Um, and it has helped me.
That'd be.
Step one was the word of God,and the word of God has carried
(10:17):
me.
It's Jesus talking to me.
You know, people talk abouthearing from the Lord and I just
say heard from the Lord, nothearing.
In other words, that book, thatbook is the Lord, the word of
God, god Almighty, speaking toyou and he's there to help you
and he's prepared these wordsthat are going to help you
through your worst time.
So, anyway, the word of God andthen the word of God mixed with
(10:40):
two different things.
I've probably never made thisclear to you.
There's REBT rational emotivebehavioral therapy and CBT
cognitive behavioral therapy andthose are two a little bit
different, but both togetherhave helped me a ton.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Well, first, so you went through growing up not much
real help or support for anyfears you felt, maybe the
contrary.
And then in your police workyou kind of did just grin and
bear it, like you're saying,like other guys, we don't accept
this.
But you never did to a degreeright.
You might've been ahead of alot of men in identifying it and
treating things like anxiety.
(11:16):
I know certainly in our familythat has been true.
I have friends that said,growing up it was never.
And in our home we did talkabout mental health and things
like that.
But when did this come intoplay?
These like CBT, like I?
Never, you know, that wasn'talways part of your life.
So how, what brought you to beopen to that?
Like you're saying, I think ourwalks with the Lord can kind of
(11:37):
loosen our grip on things andopen us to resources he has
provided.
But how'd you get from fightingcrime and stuffing down fear to
sharing about CBT?
Speaker 3 (11:46):
and REBT To think about it.
Yeah, so I would say thatthat's a long process that the
Lord was taking me through and Iwas so dumb and so closed to
see the many of the thingsscience learns are just God
being gracious to us.
So the things we've learnedabout cancer and how to fight
childhood cancer now it reducesthe death of fatalities of
(12:09):
childhood cancer that's reallygood research.
And there's been research onthe brain that is really helpful
and godly and good because ourkind Savior has just given us a
little bit more of a view intowhat the brain works like.
So that's all been really good.
Earlier I would have said Bibleonly you know, and medicine I
thought was good, was fine.
But I just thought the idea ofpsychology or somebody coaching
(12:31):
me who wasn't a believer, let'ssay, or didn't use the Bible
every minute, oh, that would bebad.
And I now have changed myopinion.
When I left so early I'd saylate in my police career, I
ended up meeting a doctor, alittle Jewish doctor, wonderful
man, dr Sank, and he startedcoaching me a little bit.
(12:52):
And was he helpful.
He just made such sense.
What I didn't realize then waswhat he was doing was REBT and
CBT.
And then the poor guy gave me abook REBTE-B-T which give me a
book you might as well give me,I don't know, a brick or
something, I'm not going to readit and I thought that thing,
(13:13):
come on.
He kept saying read it, read it.
Well, anyway, one time I wasactually in, I can remember, on
the Peru trip years ago we weretalking about with Tyler a few
minutes ago I was on the Perumission trip and I was
uncommonly nervous or anxious orwhatever you call it, and I had
that book with me and I read,uh, just a chapter and it made
(13:35):
such sense.
It's like the Lord used it tojust calm my thoughts and I just
felt peaceful.
Big thing.
It didn't eradicate all anxiety, fear in life, no, but it
reduced it for me, so it wasmanageable.
OK, so anyway that was whatstarted Dr Sank learning and I
started reading now because nowI got interested, you know, and
then when I left my church jobat the megachurch and I kind of
(13:59):
like had another, like a secondretirement, you know, it was
like a hit in the head, like Icouldn't believe that I was
leaving this place.
I loved and I had been there 30years and I wanted to be there
until I was 85.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I really did.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
I pictured myself being there until I was 85.
And and I left in an in anuncomfortable situation.
So I left and all of a suddenI'm I'm used to supervising a
lot of people and I always thepolice department too, too.
I was always in a room where wehad four sergeants and and
there was a washington postreporter used to say that room
was uh, like a comedy show anduh and uh and uh um, the most
(14:35):
important place in the city in away, because we'd have the four
of us in there and people wouldjust be coming in.
All officers come in.
Hey, we got a gun on this guy,we got this murder here, hey, we
got this.
And we'd all be managing inthere.
And then we'd be hollering, thetv'd be going, we'd go, and
then I go to that, then I go tothe church, and I had at the
time hundreds of employees, andso they were in and out of my
office.
That's just the way myscatterbrain likes.
(14:55):
It's all of a sudden, after allthose two worlds now I was
reduced to.
I was working for a missionorganization, which was
wonderful.
Not reduced, reduced in my mind,reduced to just me in an office
.
So yeah, it was a perspectivechange, so I had to change and
get my thoughts here.
But, like, what am I going todo?
I mean, I don't have anybody totalk to my poor wife she's come
(15:15):
here.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
She's like get him out of the house.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Yeah, and the Lord.
Just so I said to this guy, drSank.
I said you know, dr Sank, I'venever really understood
everything, so would you taketime I'm going to pay you to
teach me how to coach others inthis REBT stuff?
And he was so kind, he spentlike some time with me and every
week we would just work and I'djust take notes and I learned.
(15:40):
Sure, I was learning aboutmyself, but I was really
learning also how to use it withmy family and with my friends.
So I really became felt like amixture of that, with scripture.
Of course that's what Dr Sankwas missing, and the power of
Jesus too, the power of the HolySpirit to change a life.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
That all worked together for me to really help
me.
So what are the give us themystery of this miracle not
miracle, but the ways that havehelped you.
What are some of the tools?
What are some of the conceptsof thinking and things like that
.
I think it's also, uh, proveswhat we know to be true that
like this truly was a very hard,disorienting time for you to
(16:17):
have so many roles switch somechosen, some less chosen, some
in your control, less in yourcontrol and things you loved
either way were changed, andthat was hard.
I mean, mom said the other day,I think you know, leaving that
role at church, and that churchjust changed his brain and it
was hard, but God used it to getthe help you need, to help
(16:40):
everyone else.
So you wouldn't have maybeexplored this and learned these
tools?
And I think it aligns withscripture that when we are able
to recognize our frailty, ourhumanity, our struggles, it kind
of opens our grip right to theLord to really work, to say you
know all, you are all.
I need more of you, instead ofus kind of having this like
perfection, like no, we're good,we're good, everything's good.
(17:01):
It really gives more access towhat he can provide us.
So what are some specific toolswith CBT?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
and RBT.
Remember I said I said too.
I think it's important when Italk about these is to also say
I read Communion with God, withJohn Owen.
I read a lot of the Puritanauthors really helped me.
Reformed authors helped me tothink deeper and to see how the
Lord really viewed me versus theway I viewed myself.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
And that really changed everything.
Of course I wish I knew that at21.
It would have changed.
And I think all the people youalways worry about, all the
people I did wrong to that Iprobably didn't mean to.
I thought I was trying to dothe right thing, much what we
talk about, but realizing thenlike if I knew then, what do I
know now?
But I have to trust sovereigntyof God to that, because when I
look back I think like, why didI ever take that church job?
Or why did I ever do this?
(17:45):
And it's just so dumb to dothat, because the Lord has put
it all together and the sameJesus has been with me then and
now, and police work and othertimes.
So, anyway, what are the keythings?
Okay, key things are.
Number one is um, uh, toidentify, uh, distorted thoughts
(18:07):
.
Or I like this this is good.
You gotta define it right orelse the christian will be off.
They'll be like that's psychobabble or if I say it to you and
you're in that.
So let's make it clear it's.
There's a bunch of terms, butdistorted thinking, you know,
cognitive distortions, they callthem another way.
(18:27):
Then they just say bad thoughts.
It's whatever you want to putin there.
Just understand there arethoughts we think that are goofy
.
You know they're just dumb, andwe know they're dumb and those
are the ones that probably hauntus the most.
It's like it's.
It's like.
You know that's not true, butit's driving you nuts, you know.
(18:47):
So example of a distortedthought for me would be so
stupid.
I would be worried.
I would be worried to travel.
For years, I didn't want totravel by myself without my wife
.
Okay, I never knew this.
(19:07):
Yeah, didn't want to travel bymyself without my wife.
So if there would be a worktrip or a, I avoided them.
Or if I would, they would haveto.
If I was going to go, they'dhave to be super busy all the
time.
Then I knew I'd be okay, butthere was a total fear that what
will I do at the end of the dayif I don't have my wife to go
with and go to a movie or dowhatever?
(19:29):
In case, just in case, I feelanxiety.
It wasn't that I was afraid tobe away from my wife.
I was afraid away from her allthe time.
So I had this.
At the same time, though, I wasconniving on how to get.
Really honestly, this is thetruth.
I wanted to be around the worstcriminals I could.
That's it Really.
(19:50):
That's the truth.
We wanted to be around the mostdangerous, not me only, but
other undercovers.
We wanted to be with the guys.
I remember getting a talking toan interview and interview.
I was working undercover and Iwas trying to get this, this
girl and this guy to commit ahomicide for me.
We were talking about they weregoing to be hit men for me.
And I'm in the middle of thisconversation and the guy says
(20:15):
shoot, and this is the days ofPolaroid.
He said shoot.
He said, if you want, we'll cuthis head off for you and take a
Polaroid To me.
That was a great day.
It was like, oh, this is great.
I got this guy talking aboutthis.
I can't believe this.
And here's I'm with thisterrible woman and the female.
There was a really dangerousfemale who had burned a guy
alive and she'd done all theseterrible things.
(20:35):
And I was so thrilled when Imet her.
She comes into the room, intothe room.
I was like, wow, this is great,it was great, and that's the
way I think.
And then I'm worried to get ina plane and go by myself to some
city for ministry or whatever.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, really insane.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
So that's distorted thinking, that's a distorted
thought.
So you have to ask yourself youtake the first thing as you
identify it.
You say uh, uh, by the way, didI need to be afraid in those
other circumstances with the badguys?
And I'll know I didn't need tobe afraid that I didn't.
We're not like saying that, oh,you should have been, you
should build yourself fear, no,no, no, I shouldn't.
Wisdom, yes, but we hadpreparation for all that.
(21:13):
Same way you should deal withyour other fears.
So distorted thinking was Icouldn't be alone.
So then you would ask yourselfwell, what's the real thought
there?
Is it that you can't be alone?
Say no, it's not that becauseI'm alone.
Is it that you would be in ahotel room?
That's what scares you.
No, I've been in a hotel room.
(21:34):
Can you be in a different placefrom your wife?
Yes, I can be a different placefrom my wife.
Four, can you?
You would uh ask yourself.
So what we would do is they talkabout this.
It's probably the easiest oneto remember is um, catch it,
check it, change it.
You actually taught me that.
I never heard that way ofexplaining this.
(21:55):
There's a chart we use in rbtand stuff, but I like that catch
because catch it is the thought.
This is stupid.
Why would I think I can't geton a plane away from my wife?
But how you do that is youcheck that thought and the way
you check it in one of the ways.
There's multiple different ways.
You can reframe that thought.
You can do a lot of things.
I personally like the Socraticmethod where you just saw me do
(22:17):
this.
You ask a bunch of questions toverify that what you're saying.
Is there evidence to prove it?
And we as Christians love that,because we as Christians, we
like saying if the Bible doesn'tsay it, we don't say it.
In other words, I don't have toworry about so many things that
we may feel they're wrong orwhatever.
If the scriptures aren't clearabout it, I don't have to worry
about it.
So we hold to that.
(22:37):
Is it biblically based thinking?
And that's what we want to dowith those distorted, those
catch that thought, check it,say wait, wait, wait.
Does the Bible say it?
Oh, when the Bible says that,does it mean this?
You sit and you work yourselfinto that.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Wait, with the Bible saying it, you're saying like
I'm afraid to travel without mywife.
You're saying the Bible doesn't.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Well, I would say first of all, does the Bible say
you should be afraid when youtravel away from your wife?
No, does the Bible say thatyou're restricted from travel
when you sit?
No, the Bible doesn't say that.
Does the Bible say that Jesusleaves you?
When you go into rooms, hotelrooms, by yourself?
Does the Bible say, or youmight.
Then, of course, you go toother things you just go to and
remember.
(23:16):
Our brains go like this Boomboom, boom boom.
Five million questions.
And I think of being like awitness on the witness stand in
federal court, and I canremember being on a witness.
I loved it.
I testified seven days straightone time in a federal trial and
I'm seven days on the witnessstand and the whole time they're
just hitting me with questions,questions, questions.
And that's what you want to dowith these distorted thoughts is
(23:42):
just put them on the stand andask, say okay.
So you work yourself down towhere you're, coming to your own
conclusion that, well, thehotel room isn't what scares me.
Being away from my wife doesn'tscare me.
Being not busy doesn't scare me, because sometimes I'm not busy
.
What is it that really scaresme?
Oh, I'm going to get thisfeeling.
Oh, what is that feeling you'regoing to get?
(24:02):
Oh, I get a feeling.
Oh, I'm going to get thisfeeling.
Oh, what is that feeling you'regoing to get?
Oh, I get a feeling.
Well, where is the feeling at?
It's in my stomach.
It's in the middle of mystomach.
What is it A feeling that makesyou?
Does it cause you greatphysical harm?
Do you have to go to a doctorwhen you have this feeling?
No, so you see what I mean.
And you're working yourselfdown to like realize this
distorted thought makes no sense.
And so you're catch it, checkit and then change.
(24:26):
It is where I say the scripturescome in so well, because then
and it doesn't always work thisway but then you can memorize a
lot of the scriptures that sayyou know, do not fear.
Or scripture says don't even bedismayed.
He says god is so gracious.
He says don't even, don't evenbe dismayed.
Or in matthew 6, in the greeklanguage, it says do not worry,
do not worry, do not worry threetimes.
Or do not fear.
He really says do not be uneasy.
(24:47):
And I think that's so helpfulfor us, because often we're just
uneasy.
We're not like.
You know, nobody ever knew Ihad these fears.
I mean, you lived in the housewhere you never knew I was
troubled by these things.
But uneasy that's a betterdescription of how we feel a lot
of times.
Just uneasy and so anyway, I canmemorize those verses to change
my thinking.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
And it's all like 2 Corinthians, 10, 5, take your
thoughts captive and submit them.
That's where it's like.
This isn't a sidestep fromScripture.
This is like a tool thatScripture encourages, that the
Lord wants to transform usthrough our mind.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
And so we can catch our thoughts, and that verse is
a really good verse on this.
It says to demolish arguments,and the only thing I would say
there is be careful to alwaysunderstand the scripture in its
context to make sure that itapplies to what you're doing,
but here, where it talks aboutgetting a hold of these thoughts
, it's really talking aboutgetting the arguments against
Christianity.
(25:39):
Demolish those arguments andget your thoughts under control.
This is really right, though,and he repeats it many times.
You know, one of the things Idid to manage my fears was I
memorized a lot of Scripture,and so I memorized.
When I was young, I memorizedbooks of the Bible, epistles,
and memorized large sections.
Colossians 3 is just one ofthose great passages that helps
(26:01):
you deal with all thosedifferent things, and by you
flushing your mind with the wordof God, it really helps you to
also think straight and to helpyou in that change of category.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yeah, it does.
Okay, so we have distortedthinking and there's different
categories for that.
There's black and whitethinking.
I have, like my kids chart init with kids terms of all the
different types of distortedthinking.
That can help you identify it.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Like in it with kids, terms of all the different
types of distorted thinking thatcan help you identify it like.
What's the term they use withkids?
Um well, there's pictures.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
There's pictures um so black and white thinking is
one of them um, there's a wholething you can look it up yeah,
black and white thinking isright out of cbt yeah, um, so
there's one, and then I hear youtalk about radical acceptance a
lot.
Is that something that hashelped you with fears in
particular, and what is thatconcept?
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Yeah.
So the idea of acceptancethere's, um, it's a little bit
of a danger on that one, I think, um, because what they're
trying to teach you is this isreally good, it's a Buddhist
thought.
It's a Buddhist thought thatsays, uh, accept things as they
are, not as you want them to be,or accept people as they are,
(27:05):
not as you want them to be.
Well, what I would say isaccept things as God made them,
not as you want them to be, oraccept people as God made them
not as you want them to be.
And the reason that matters isbecause I know I really hate it
when I hear Christians say it iswhat it is.
That's not true.
That's just not true.
It is not what it is.
(27:25):
Our wonderful Lord Jesus is ineverything that's going on.
We don't need to have thatfatalist attitude.
You know you're going throughstruggles right now.
I don't say to you it's of nohelp, nor is it biblically
coherent to say, well, you knowthat's life.
No, no, our sovereign God, heloves us too much for that.
So the struggles you're goingthrough, our Jesus is there with
(27:46):
you through them and I justwant you to see it better.
So anyway, radical acceptance.
The fear can be, if you go wrongon this, is you could say well,
I've got to accept you, nomatter what you do to me.
So you're in a relationshipwhere the person is abusing and
mistreating you and you say Ihave to accept everybody where
they are.
So I have to accept this personwho's abusing me.
I have to stay in therelationship.
(28:07):
No, you don't.
That's not what that's saying.
I mean, I don't know what theguy said, who came up with that
idea, but the Bible certainlydoesn't say that.
So my acceptance of people andmy acceptance of circumstances
is very wise and very healthy,because God made the
circumstances.
I got to accept them as theyare.
But how I react to thosecircumstances will help me a lot
(28:29):
.
Once I can accept them, then ithelps me if I can use those
other categories then to fightit back.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
So what's an example of how that helped you, either
in your police work or in a fearoutside of that, or a worry of
how radical acceptance actuallylooks?
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Well, one is to accept circumstances.
So they talk about mindfulnessand the idea of really I see it
as biblical gratefulness is I'msitting on a plane and I get
this flash.
Or I get a flash I'm going tobe on a plane Saturday night, so
I get a flash.
Now I'm going to have ananxious moment on that plane,
sitting by myself, right?
(29:02):
You say, well, if that happened, what would be?
I would accept that.
I'm on a plane, I'm around andto me I convert it to
gratefulness.
I'm around other people, nicepeople.
I'm in this nice seat on a niceplane, able to do things that
(29:23):
people only dream of in mostparts of the world.
I'm on my way to go see friendsthat are going to be happy to
see me, who want me to come.
You see what I mean.
And I'm going to accept thecircumstances they are.
I'm not going to try to changethem.
I'm going to accept them theway they are.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
And same with flawed people, I guess is a bigger
example of just like yeah, thisperson I love is that's how they
are and I can pray for them tochange and believe they'll
change, but accept the realitytoday instead of always pushing
against it.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
You have to deal with that in your marriage a lot,
don't you?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Actually right now with the relationship here.
No, I'm kidding, no, I think hehas to deal with that with me,
like she's Radical acceptance.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
My poor wife.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
My flawed wife.
We have a lot of irrationalfears and can all identify with
that in different ways atdifferent times, and peeling
back the layers to kind ofidentify what's what and and
catch it and change it is sohelpful.
What would you say to theperson that has actual real I
don't want to say real, they'reall.
They all feel very real buttangible, maybe logical,
(30:23):
imminent fears, which wouldapply to something on the police
department too.
What would you say to those?
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Yeah, I think one that's important is what would
we say?
We're laymen just trying totake a stab at this.
So really there's smart peoplewho are studying this, who could
give you really good advice.
For me, let's talk about mypersonal approach is with
legitimate fears.
Let's say, I have a legitimatefear that someone is going to
(30:50):
kill me on the police department.
So what do I do when thathappens?
I try to take that legitimatefear and I evaluate it against
evidence Again.
Is this fear based on?
Well, is it possible thatsomebody could kill you?
Yes, is it a high risk or a lowrisk?
Well, with the work I do, it'sa higher risk.
(31:10):
Oh, really.
What are the statistics?
How many undercover policemenhave been killed in Washington
DC?
Oh, well, it's only wow,there's only been one or two.
And how many years have therebeen police?
Well, there's been 200 years ofpolice, and there have been 200
years in Washington DC.
And how many police?
Oh, there's 30,000 or so at anypoint in the city.
All these different agencies,well, wait, what are the chances
(31:32):
?
And then, what do you fear Ifyou get killed?
What happens?
Is it the bullet hitting you?
Is it a knife?
Are you worried they're goingto push you off a building?
What are those fears?
And so you would help todelineate that, and the more
questions you ask, you'll findout based on evidence-based
thinking.
All I'm doing is reducing myfear, so I can get back out
there and do my job.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Do you think you should ever have?
Speaker 3 (31:53):
fear.
I think you know it's sointeresting because the
scriptures warn us do not fear.
Do not fear multiple, 300 times, some say 365.
Our wonderful savior, he lovesus and he doesn't want us to be
afraid.
He doesn't want us to live infear.
So no, he says there's no needto really fear.
But he also tells us that a manwho builds a tower, plans it
(32:15):
and thinks about it before hedoes, he'd be a fool not to.
And he gives multiple examplesof that.
Matter of fact, he uses that totry to prepare you to get right
with him, because he calls onus to remember eternity's
forever.
So he absolutely gives uswarnings to have us react and
get right with him.
So there is that.
But I would just say there's acouple things you do.
(32:35):
One is you plan, so you canmake a plan about your real
fears.
So it's a real fear that Icould be a policeman and die.
Okay, so let's do this.
How about a bulletproof vest?
Well, let's wear it.
We didn't used to wear it, nowwe'll wear it.
Should you carry a gun?
Yeah, how about you go with twopolicemen?
We know the statistics are less.
Get killed in twos Four.
Know more about your dopedealer.
(32:56):
Make sure he doesn't meet youalone in his area, pull him to
another.
You follow what I'm saying.
So we do all those things totake our fear that could be a
legitimate warning and we planas much as we can, but then,
after the Department of Planningis done, you can't still be
afraid.
You follow what I mean.
You've done everything.
Department of Planning has comeout.
They laid it out on thegroundwork.
This is what you're to do Nowyou're still afraid.
(33:17):
Now we've got to work throughthe check it, change it.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah, I guess I think of our like a very not basic,
but like a tangible example is,like some of our family members
who are afraid of getting sick,or even friends, it seems more
prominent.
I was just thinking yesterday,like is it post pandemic that
more people seem to be worried,especially for their small
children.
So let's say that rule appliesLike I'll just decide not to go
to like play places and I'lldecide to wash our hands every
(33:42):
time we leave school.
I'll do these few things, um toto not be fearful and this
isn't my particular fear,although it has been that of one
of our kids, and they hadtangible steps too for him of
just like carry a bag with, youknow, a water bottle in case in
a bandaid, and your mom's phonenumber if you need it, so you're
taking care of, in case youever feel have the, the clinic
(34:06):
at school be your safe spot incase you fear.
Having the feeling is what itwas for him.
Um.
So there's these tangiblethings we can do, but often
either that planning can takeyou too far, to where then
you're kind of trying to control, you know, your whole life and
outcome, or the planning is notenough and you still are fearful
, right?
So then what?
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Yeah Well, first of all, I was just thinking about
what a nice, wonderful group ofpeople that are at your kid's
school and that are in yourkid's life, that care enough to
have a little one to take itseriously enough because it's
serious to him.
So here's where you do, here'swhat you do.
All those things are just God'sgrace.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
And some of that is counsel.
Like we paid for counseling andI was just telling someone
yesterday, I think you know it'sclear in scripture that we're
to live in community and have awise counsel and a multitude of
counselors and sometimes in ourday and age, for better or for
worse, that sometimes as a paidresource, even though I feel
like that's unfortunate andthat's not accessible to
everyone, but sometimes thatlooks like paying to get
counseling which I feel likethis would be a way more robust
(35:05):
conversation if we had a umsomebody really knew what
they're talking about.
Yeah, Um, but uh, so that, to behonest, comes in that form, and
also medication, like youtouched on, and so that's very
valuable, but go ahead with whatyou're saying.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
Oh, I think that's great.
I think what you said is great.
You work with somebody and, and, and I have a fear of it.
It's called emetophobia fear ofthrowing up.
I don't know why I have thisfear.
I really don't have any idea.
But when you press people on itand you ask questions, it's
really helpful.
(35:39):
You know, you say are youafraid of the moment of throwing
up?
Are you afraid of getting sickbefore you throw up?
Are you afraid of the sensation?
Are you afraid of the toilet?
Are you afraid of being sick up?
Are you afraid of the sensation?
Are you afraid of the toilet?
Are you afraid of being sickforever?
Are you afraid of you?
See what I mean.
And when you answer all thosequestions, before you know it,
you start realizing well, wait aminute, I'm really only afraid
of something that lasts threeseconds, so why would I be
(36:01):
afraid of something that laststhree seconds?
So you're right now noddingyour head because you don't have
that fear.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
That why you're so comfortable.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
You're like, yes, yes , obviously, obviously, of
course and then you got yourgoofy fear and I'm here like
what do you think?
I have this friend who's reallypetrified of flying.
I mean petrified like he.
He gets drunk before he's onthe plane and he takes drink.
I mean, he's like very scaredof that and he's a police
officer too right was.
I don't mean to say that he wasusing drugs while he was a
policeman.
I'm just saying, when he got ona plane he was a tough guy.
(36:27):
He was a truly tough guy.
But when he gets on a plane itscares him.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
No, I'm just saying it adds context that he was like
your sidekick or, I don't know,your partner in all these
actual dangerous things and he'safraid of fire.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
He's retired, oh, so afraid so afraid, yeah, but at
people that were scared of COVIDand wearing masks and all, he
would get so mad.
So I just would have to say tohim you know which one's more
rational, which one's morerational?
Yeah, you know either one.
We're both dumb.
You know if we're over fear ofeither.
(36:58):
So it's just the way we are.
You know, I'm in a position ofstrength on so many fears people
have, because I only have a fewphobias I don't know about.
I'll thank the Lord I don'thave a thousand phobias, but
yeah, but you would use thissame method.
And if it's not clear, let memake it clear.
Catch the thought, figure out.
What is this distorted thought?
What is this thought thatdoesn't make any sense?
(37:18):
Why am I thinking that?
Figure out what that is andwhat's the bottom of it.
Second one you do is you checkit and that's how you get to the
bottom of it.
Me, I've only used one way here.
There's reframing, there'sblack and white thinking,
there's all different types ofthings you can learn, but I
figure, on a short time, bestthing I could teach you is
Socratic method.
So that just meansevidence-based thinking.
So take in your thought,whatever that crazy thought is,
(37:39):
and work it down and all you'retrying to do is just lower it,
make it less painful than it waswhen you got it, and then
change it.
And I think the word of God isreally helpful there.
Or reason, or ration.
The Lord's, the Lord's truth,truth is all truth, god's truth.
So if I say planes don't godown very often, I don't need a
verse to say that it's true.
Planes don't go down very often.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Yeah, and do you think people should face their
fears?
Are you for desensitization, ifthat, or just like you know?
This setting or this person orwhatever makes me fearful.
Do I face my fears?
Speaker 3 (38:11):
Well, let's say this, we can say a couple of things
for sure.
There's a couple of differenttherapies that work really well
statistically with human beings.
So CBT cognitive behavioraltherapy works with about 50 to
75% of humanity.
That ought to get our attention, ought to say, wow, it helps
that many people.
Maybe it's worth you know,learning about.
In the same way,desensitization is something
(38:33):
they use during rbt or cbt.
So do I like it, do I think ordo I recommend people go do it
just on their own, without atherapist?
I don't think I'm doing thatbecause I don't know what their
desensitization is like.
If mine was worried aboutgetting shot, you wouldn
wouldn't say, oh, go get shot.
You'd say, uh, wait a second,why don't you do it in other
(38:54):
ways, you know?
So, uh, you don't need to haveeverybody who's who's scared of
heights to stand on top of abuilding.
That isn't the first thing youdo, but with therapy it could be
helpful to desensitize some ofthat.
You know.
Just remind yourself wait aminute.
Nothing happened when thathappened, so it's okay.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Yeah, and with the mindfulness you touched on, I
think our nervous system, likeour bodies, respond Like we're
saying if there was a bear, youwould feel it, and so finding
ways to calm our nervous systemis really valuable, I think, as
you chug Diet Coke.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
As a way to reduce the amount and feelings of fear,
if you can first just usestrategies to calm yourself,
which there's quite a few.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
Yes, yes, there are quite a few strategies.
What's that?
Do you do that?
What's that?
Use strategies.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yeah, to feel calm besides the thinking part.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
No, I don't those other ones.
I've never learned that verywell.
Oh, I've done a few times thatbreathing deep through your nose
.
Yeah, I think that's good.
I mean it's absolutely good.
A matter of fact, again, it'sempirically proven, so it's.
It's gotta be good.
But it isn't something.
Yeah, I've heard all kind.
I mean I've had other peopletell me all kinds of things I
was supposed to.
I had a guy one time tell me tohold my head this way.
(40:08):
I don't know that stuff isn'teasy for me.
If it's logical and it'ssomething I can square with
Scripture or it's reasonable tomy little brain, I can do it.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
That's valuable to say too.
Not every strategy is going tobe a strategy that speaks to you
and where you're at it doesn'tmean you throw the baby out with
the bathwater.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
All counselors are all please, medicinal help or
all everything is is bad.
I think that's so critical.
If we say anything is toremember that if you try one
medicine, you're going to needthree before you get to the
right one often, and it's goingto take you six weeks or eight
weeks.
Okay, two.
Most people don't like thefirst counselor any more than
you like your first date withanybody.
So when, when you come home,your first day of work's not
good, your first day at churchis not good, your first day with
a counselor is not usuallygreat.
So the idea that we have tostick with things and give them
(40:59):
time and try to learn from themis so important.
I think it's so important.
Like REBT, remember I had thisin my ear, I mean for several
years before I used it, severalyears before I used it.
And that was me and I wassuffering, but I'm suffering on
my own.
Nobody knows I'm suffering, butI'm suffering on my own.
And then when the Lord got meto really listen to it and it's
(41:19):
been so helpful, you see what Imean.
So just understand it wouldhave benefited me to catch on
then instead of now.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
So do it today.
That's your charge, I think soyeah, Get help today.
Yes, we don't always have thetools within ourselves.
We need the Lord and outsideresources.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
Oh, and God's been so gracious to give us so many
resources and access to so manyresources, even for those who
can't afford counseling at all.
There's so much out there andGod's word is so good and
there's a pastor that willlisten to him as well.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Okay, so what do you view the difference from being
bold and reckless, you know, inyour work, in your parenting, in
your life, as far as managingfears and realities?
Speaker 3 (41:58):
I think I was thinking about, as you were
thinking about, that there was aterm in police work we call
being a cowboy, and of coursethat doesn't work as good in a
generation like ours where youdon't even see cowboy movies or
whatever.
We all grew up on cowboy movies.
So the cowboy was this guy onhis own who would kick down any
door, run in anywhere no fear ofanything, and he really did it.
(42:19):
The cowboy did it for his ownglory.
That was really the point.
So when he'd save the woman orwhatever, he'd walk out, you
know.
So cops would say look man,don't be a cowboy.
Okay, Go into this.
In other words, plan, do what'ssafe as much as you can.
It's still going to bedangerous, but do what's safe,
Don't be a cowboy, Don't be ajerk.
Basically, and I think in ourparenting is an excellent
(42:41):
example, as I have my grandkidsand I look at the, you know I
want to put them all in a boxand protect them until they're
old enough to protect themselves.
You know, they're too dumb toprotect themselves.
They got to, you know.
So I want to do that.
But that that isn't sensible,is it?
But on the other hand, I don'twant to be a cowboy parent where
I say, hey kids, live it up, dowhat you want.
(43:02):
And they're out climbing on theroof and I'm like do what you
want, You'll be fine.
That would be insane, Becausewhy?
Statistics would tell me thatit's unsafe for a four-year-old
to be walking on a roof.
In the same way, washing yourhands or not, we would have this
debate.
Is it important to not sharedrinks and wash your hands?
To me, there's evidence to sayyou're safer if you wash your
(43:24):
hands.
So what does it hurt?
Make the kid wash their hands.
Share drinks why do that?
We got enough disease in theworld.
Why do we want to share itaround?
To me, that's reasonable.
But if it gets to the pointwhere it's impossible, you know
you're on a trip, you only haveone drink, you don't have enough
money for one drink, andsuddenly everybody's going to
die of thirst because they can'tshare a drink, you see what I
mean.
But in normal throws of lifeyou could put certain boundaries
(43:47):
that are reasonable, and that'sjust.
That's not being reckless, it'sjust being bold.
I still can move forward.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
As a parent, I've created some things, but at some
point a child can get sick, orwhatever thing you're afraid,
yeah, yeah, it seems like maybeit's putting guardrails, for
safety being the key term andmaking sure that's, let's say,
in parenting for their safety,not for our fears.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
So I'm not going to let a four-year-old run into the
street for their safety, thatis going to harm them, but I
might.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
If I'm afraid of them going at the top of the slide
when they're physically able,that's my fear, maybe holding
them back, that can say I'mgoing to let you go down,
because that's just my fearholding you back.
So maybe assessing where thoseguardrails are.
Like as a cop, I'm going to goin, not without my bulletproof
vest, but with it.
But I'm still going to go inand I'm not going to let my fear
(44:38):
hold me back.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
Yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
So that's maybe a difference in not letting fear
hold you back, but obviouslysafety being at the forefront.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
There's a book that I should have read, but it's the
title of the book.
It says feel the fear and do itanyway.
That's a big one for me,because I always was like at all
costs, avoid feeling fear.
Avoid feeling fear.
Big thing for me was to say Ican feel that and still be able
to manage this situation and so,anyway, that's really important
.
As a parent, you got to feelthe fear and do it anyway.
Yeah, otherwise you don't havekids, you know, Otherwise you
(45:11):
don't date, otherwise you neverapply for a job.
Feel the fear of rejection andall those things, but do it
anyway.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
Do it scared.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
Yeah, do it scared.
I like that, you can alwayseradicate the fear, but yeah,
All you try to do is lower itand allow the Lord and the Holy
Spirit to help you manage it.
That's my opinion.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
Yes, okay, should we end on our classic.
What would you tell real quick?
What would you tell a cop, acriminal and a Christian about?
Speaker 3 (45:36):
fear.
Do you say real quick, becauseI was not quick in the past.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
No, your thoughts are quick.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
All over the place.
Yeah Cop.
What would I tell a cop?
Speaker 2 (45:47):
I mean, do you feel like most cops have less fear
than the average person andthat's what gets them into it?
Or do you feel like most ofthem are managing fear for their
job?
Speaker 3 (45:58):
All humans manage fear.
I don't know what thestatistics are on how anxious
certain people are than others Idon't know the numbers on that
but I would say all humansmanage fear.
So if they're reasonable, theyprobably have some fear.
I think in this day and agethey elevate fear too high and
they tell cops all the time youhave to be afraid of everything.
And they live in this worldlike being afraid of a terrorist
(46:19):
attack, a biological Now here?
We've never had one.
Does that mean that we don't,you know, prepare for it?
Yes, but it's not a realisticfear to think about all the time
.
It's a terrorist attack.
You need to go out and be thepolice every day, and most of
that time you're going to spendtalking to people in domestic
disturbance and so on.
So reduce that.
Don't let the fear stop you, Iwould say as a policeman.
(46:39):
Secondly, to the criminal Iwould say let fear drive you
away from where you're living.
Let the fear of God change youso that you're able to get
redemption from your life andthe freedom that only Christ can
offer.
And then for the Christian Iwould say look, get in the
business of digging into God'sword, loving his scriptures,
(47:00):
knowing the word more and, atthe same time, learning what God
has used and taught otherpsychologists and all, and
combine those two and watch howJesus can free you, liberate you
from the feelings that aredriving you nuts.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
That's really good.
Freedom is kind of the antidoteof fear in some ways.
Just living free to be who Goddesigned you to be and do what
he designed you to do, but wewon't be without that in this
life, but it also can help uslong for heaven, where there
will be no fear.
So this is really good, I thinkeveryone relates to it and
could be a whole series indifferent ways, and maybe we'll
bring on some of the pros.
Speaker 3 (47:33):
So thanks, it was good.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Was I not a pro?
Well, yes, you're a pro in yourown experience.
Welcome to the Cops, criminals and Christ podcast,
where we will hear interestingstories and unique perspectives
about the work of cops, theworld of criminals and how faith
plays a role in the lives ofboth.
Dale Sutherland was anundercover cop and a pastor for
many years and will shareinteresting stories and
perspectives and interviewguests.
(00:22):
I'm your host, his daughterKristen Kru.
Come join us to learn moreabout these powerful forces and
how they shape the lives ofpeople just like you.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Welcome back.
Today we are going to betalking about fear and I think
it's super interesting becauseit relates to literally every
single person.
I thought you were gas, yourmouth was a gape in awe of what
I was saying, but you wereyawning Um.
This is relatable to everyperson and I think it's
interesting that our brain iswired to experience fear, to
(00:55):
perceive threats.
So, like if we see a bear walkup to us, we want to feel fear
to make us run away.
But often our brain perceives athreat like a bear for making a
phone call we don't want to do,or going in for you as an
undercover cop true, true,tangible fear of guns and danger
and all those things, and alsoyou've experienced fear in
(01:16):
things that might not make asmuch rational, logical sense to
the outside world.
So I think it's a reallyimportant topic to dive into.
What are your initial thoughtson fear for the people?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
I'd say that, if you are just starting to listen,
whether you're a religiousperson or not a religious person
, I think this is one of themost common things we all fight,
and when I grew up, I thoughttough guys didn't, but that was
a lie.
I was wrong, and I've alwaysfought this and I still fight it
(01:53):
, and so I think there's somethings we should talk about that
will help you, whateverperspective you're at, from
somebody who's been in like whatyou would consider legitimately
dangerous situations comparedto the normal everyday things
that scare us all.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
So, as your daughter, I have a little bit more
background knowledge and I willspill it all.
But you experienced fear as ahuman before, before becoming a
police officer, which seemssilly.
If you already were accustomedto kind of some fears in just
average life, can you speak tothat?
What?
(02:29):
What growing up was like withdifferent fears before even
entering true fear?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Yeah, my, my mother tells me that she remembers me
having what we would call, now,panic attack.
When I was like four years old,I was at the top of the step
somewhere we were living, andshe said that I just I don't
know froze and saw what shethinks was a panic attack.
So I can remember being reallyyoung, though, and having a lot
of fear just at certain times,because, remember, like all of
(02:57):
us, we have these anxiousmoments.
And then you hate yourself andyou think I'm anxious all the
time, nobody else like me.
That isn't true.
Anxiety comes and goes.
For people it's like water,it's like the ocean.
It comes in and goes back out.
Because, of God's grace toeverybody, it's peaks and it
goes away Not completelynecessarily, but anyway.
(03:18):
So we would go through.
I would go through times.
Now, when you look back, wewent to five different
elementary schools, threedifferent junior highs, three
different high schools.
It's not really that confusingthat you say, oh, you suffered
some anxiety during those times.
I mean that seems reasonablenow it's talking about, but the
time nobody had anxiety or fear,unless you were they wouldn't
(03:40):
label it as that.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
No, yeah, right, we didn't believe that right?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
oh, no, no, no, yeah, yeah, just yeah.
I can remember my dad saying tome yeah, he just really could
not understand, uh, the way Ifelt about now is about my fears
or whatever I've.
I've confided in him in thesixth grade or something.
I remember him saying it'sreally hard to love you when you
, you know, tell me these things.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Did he say that yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, he was
serious too.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
He was totally disgusted with me and you still
remember it.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah, I mean I can't say I lost any sleep over it
last week and I love my dad buthe's dead now.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
But yeah, sure you remember stuff like that
misconception, that that, likejust you know, do better, get
better, and that's not the case,which is why I think it'd be
good to talk today about some ofthe tools you've found that
have helped you.
And for anyone listening thatfeels like that's not something
I struggle with or that's notthe more you tap in, you're like
either you or someone rightnext to you or in another season
(04:38):
of life or circumstance in life, you're going to be hit with it
if you haven't yet.
So we all need tools in ourtool belt for ourselves and our
loved ones, and certainly ourkids, to help us walk through it
.
So what?
about as a police officer, youknow we all can envision all the
things that were fearful.
What brought you true fear inthose years?
Speaker 3 (04:59):
At the police department.
What scared me, you know, whenI first became a policeman I was
in uniform and I was out andaround.
I would say and this is howsilly the mind is I was more
fearful of not being accepted bythe other cops, not being
respected in the street, than Iwas of the street Insanity.
You know, I wasn't afraid.
(05:20):
I don't remember ever being,you know, petrified of firearms
or petrified of of of normalpolice stuff, Even when I'd
watch like movies like I, youknow, it's not like now I
couldn't watch something about achild getting hurt or whatever.
All these grandkids I couldn'twatch.
I just don't want to watch.
But it wasn't like then Icouldn't watch a video about a
(05:41):
policeman getting shot orsomething.
I could.
No, it was no problem, I justthought how I'd get around it.
But what really scared me waswhether or not people would
still like me, whether or not Icould still do a good job, all
those kind of normal things.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah, that makes sense, and it's also interesting
just how the brain works thatsome things that literally all
of society would say that'sworthy of your fear wasn't as
scary to you as the things thatwe feel like we shouldn't be
worried about.
But you also and maybe this ispulling back the curtain too far
, but with you not wanting towatch kids get hurt like you.
(06:14):
You really don't like kids.
I mean, who likes a baby crying?
But it brings stress to you.
But am I allowed to say that adoctor once identified that
through all your search warrantsand things of being in hard
places where kids were kind ofin the crossfire of your arrest,
that somehow impacted you?
It's not for no reason.
You were around a lot of upsetchildren as you help them be
(06:37):
safe from their adult.
Would you say that's true andthat has impacted your future?
I mean it was interesting.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
I was talking to a doctor, a psychologist, and I
was telling him about.
To me it just seems insane,like I could watch, like right
now, to see.
Sometimes even MMA would botherme when they would beat a guy.
I feel like it should.
When they would actually the guyis down and they just continue
to beat on him.
Or if I watch a, I rememberseeing a couple of things where
(07:07):
some group of girls jumpedanother kid, you know, beat a
real bad.
I just I can't watch it.
I think in a good way nobodyshould watch it.
But in a but in another way itreally bothered me.
So he said it could be PTSD.
Now you know, I don't thinkI've done anything that deserves
that.
I mean that should be reserved.
That classic case to me shouldbe reserved for guys who've,
like, shot the wrong person orlost a child.
(07:27):
I just don't want to everdiminish that real pain that
people go through compared towhat I've seen.
But but I but I would say thatthat was interesting to me to
think of.
Maybe that stuff did affect me,that it bothered me more than I
.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yes, yeah, I think we should push back on that a
little bit.
It's understandable you feelthat way.
I want to honor people that youdeem worthy of PTSD, but PTSD
is a DSM diagnosis with likefive symptoms that you could get
from a menagerie of reasons.
But, it is, you know, like ourkids from hard places.
Some of them have beendiagnosed with it and it doesn't
(07:59):
define you, but it certainly isa real thing that any kind of
complex chronic heart.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
You know you come at this and we?
This is the one we, as soon aswe talk about anxiety, worry,
fear, whatever term I usematters, because in my
generation I was talking to menand I said, man, you're anxious.
Almost every man would be likeyou just don't want to identify
with that.
But if I said, man, you worrytoo much, yeah, they'd be like
yeah, take out the notepad,ready to write you see what I
mean, or like stress would beacceptable.
(08:24):
Stress acceptable PTSD Pressure,what that's for, like soldiers,
for people who've been through,you know, terrible traumas,
children, and really I meanhonestly, let's not diminish
that Like to me.
I level respect for those thathave suffered mentally but, as
you, you say it is justfoolishness because of course,
people can get PTSD other ways.
(08:45):
I mean, I'm not a doctor, butyeah, you know, through terrible
trauma.
That can happen and our traumais perceived a lot, so it's
weird, but the human bodyresponds to it differently.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
That'll be something I asked the Lord one day.
It's just like kind of themystery of risk, how two people
can go through the same thingand one not be impacted and one
be, you know, incrediblyimpacted for the duration of
their life, and how the brain ismalleable with all that stuff.
But I think you do have a pointthat like we throw around PTSD
or like OCD, ocd because I watchthat's not OCD, ocd is real.
You know there's things likethis that we shouldn't throw
(09:17):
around beyond what reason.
But it also is a real, realdiagnosis that can be helped.
So through this journey youhave kind of tapped into CBT
cognitive behavioral therapy.
Do you feel like one of thethings that provided the most
tools for you to help with fear?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
So there's, first of all, I would say, my walk with
the Lord and my knowledge ofscripture has really helped me
to build a basis, like abiblical framework, to
understand what's going on withme, to accept Christ's love,
even when the rest of the worldthinks you're stupid, all those
type of things and to realizeChrist at work in me, that he
(09:55):
loves me.
All those things are critical.
And knowing God's word,constantly knowing God's word,
is like that ability.
So, with changing your thinking, you need to also put in good
thoughts.
You just don't want to take outthe bad, you want to put in
good.
And I would just say thescriptures are supernatural,
literally.
Um, and it has helped me.
That'd be.
Step one was the word of God,and the word of God has carried
(10:17):
me.
It's Jesus talking to me.
You know, people talk abouthearing from the Lord and I just
say heard from the Lord, nothearing.
In other words, that book, thatbook is the Lord, the word of
God, god Almighty, speaking toyou and he's there to help you
and he's prepared these wordsthat are going to help you
through your worst time.
So, anyway, the word of God andthen the word of God mixed with
(10:40):
two different things.
I've probably never made thisclear to you.
There's REBT rational emotivebehavioral therapy and CBT
cognitive behavioral therapy andthose are two a little bit
different, but both togetherhave helped me a ton.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Well, first, so you went through growing up not much
real help or support for anyfears you felt, maybe the
contrary.
And then in your police workyou kind of did just grin and
bear it, like you're saying,like other guys, we don't accept
this.
But you never did to a degreeright.
You might've been ahead of alot of men in identifying it and
treating things like anxiety.
(11:16):
I know certainly in our familythat has been true.
I have friends that said,growing up it was never.
And in our home we did talkabout mental health and things
like that.
But when did this come intoplay?
These like CBT, like I?
Never, you know, that wasn'talways part of your life.
So how, what brought you to beopen to that?
Like you're saying, I think ourwalks with the Lord can kind of
(11:37):
loosen our grip on things andopen us to resources he has
provided.
But how'd you get from fightingcrime and stuffing down fear to
sharing about CBT?
Speaker 3 (11:46):
and REBT To think about it.
Yeah, so I would say thatthat's a long process that the
Lord was taking me through and Iwas so dumb and so closed to
see the many of the thingsscience learns are just God
being gracious to us.
So the things we've learnedabout cancer and how to fight
childhood cancer now it reducesthe death of fatalities of
(12:09):
childhood cancer that's reallygood research.
And there's been research onthe brain that is really helpful
and godly and good because ourkind Savior has just given us a
little bit more of a view intowhat the brain works like.
So that's all been really good.
Earlier I would have said Bibleonly you know, and medicine I
thought was good, was fine.
But I just thought the idea ofpsychology or somebody coaching
(12:31):
me who wasn't a believer, let'ssay, or didn't use the Bible
every minute, oh, that would bebad.
And I now have changed myopinion.
When I left so early I'd saylate in my police career, I
ended up meeting a doctor, alittle Jewish doctor, wonderful
man, dr Sank, and he startedcoaching me a little bit.
(12:52):
And was he helpful.
He just made such sense.
What I didn't realize then waswhat he was doing was REBT and
CBT.
And then the poor guy gave me abook REBTE-B-T which give me a
book you might as well give me,I don't know, a brick or
something, I'm not going to readit and I thought that thing,
(13:13):
come on.
He kept saying read it, read it.
Well, anyway, one time I wasactually in, I can remember, on
the Peru trip years ago we weretalking about with Tyler a few
minutes ago I was on the Perumission trip and I was
uncommonly nervous or anxious orwhatever you call it, and I had
that book with me and I read,uh, just a chapter and it made
(13:35):
such sense.
It's like the Lord used it tojust calm my thoughts and I just
felt peaceful.
Big thing.
It didn't eradicate all anxiety, fear in life, no, but it
reduced it for me, so it wasmanageable.
OK, so anyway that was whatstarted Dr Sank learning and I
started reading now because nowI got interested, you know, and
then when I left my church jobat the megachurch and I kind of
(13:59):
like had another, like a secondretirement, you know, it was
like a hit in the head, like Icouldn't believe that I was
leaving this place.
I loved and I had been there 30years and I wanted to be there
until I was 85.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I really did.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
I pictured myself being there until I was 85.
And and I left in an in anuncomfortable situation.
So I left and all of a suddenI'm I'm used to supervising a
lot of people and I always thepolice department too, too.
I was always in a room where wehad four sergeants and and
there was a washington postreporter used to say that room
was uh, like a comedy show anduh and uh and uh um, the most
(14:35):
important place in the city in away, because we'd have the four
of us in there and people wouldjust be coming in.
All officers come in.
Hey, we got a gun on this guy,we got this murder here, hey, we
got this.
And we'd all be managing inthere.
And then we'd be hollering, thetv'd be going, we'd go, and
then I go to that, then I go tothe church, and I had at the
time hundreds of employees, andso they were in and out of my
office.
That's just the way myscatterbrain likes.
(14:55):
It's all of a sudden, after allthose two worlds now I was
reduced to.
I was working for a missionorganization, which was
wonderful.
Not reduced, reduced in my mind,reduced to just me in an office
.
So yeah, it was a perspectivechange, so I had to change and
get my thoughts here.
But, like, what am I going todo?
I mean, I don't have anybody totalk to my poor wife she's come
(15:15):
here.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
She's like get him out of the house.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Yeah, and the Lord.
Just so I said to this guy, drSank.
I said you know, dr Sank, I'venever really understood
everything, so would you taketime I'm going to pay you to
teach me how to coach others inthis REBT stuff?
And he was so kind, he spentlike some time with me and every
week we would just work and I'djust take notes and I learned.
(15:40):
Sure, I was learning aboutmyself, but I was really
learning also how to use it withmy family and with my friends.
So I really became felt like amixture of that, with scripture.
Of course that's what Dr Sankwas missing, and the power of
Jesus too, the power of the HolySpirit to change a life.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
That all worked together for me to really help
me.
So what are the give us themystery of this miracle not
miracle, but the ways that havehelped you.
What are some of the tools?
What are some of the conceptsof thinking and things like that
.
I think it's also, uh, proveswhat we know to be true that
like this truly was a very hard,disorienting time for you to
(16:17):
have so many roles switch somechosen, some less chosen, some
in your control, less in yourcontrol and things you loved
either way were changed, andthat was hard.
I mean, mom said the other day,I think you know, leaving that
role at church, and that churchjust changed his brain and it
was hard, but God used it to getthe help you need, to help
(16:40):
everyone else.
So you wouldn't have maybeexplored this and learned these
tools?
And I think it aligns withscripture that when we are able
to recognize our frailty, ourhumanity, our struggles, it kind
of opens our grip right to theLord to really work, to say you
know all, you are all.
I need more of you, instead ofus kind of having this like
perfection, like no, we're good,we're good, everything's good.
(17:01):
It really gives more access towhat he can provide us.
So what are some specific toolswith CBT?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
and RBT.
Remember I said I said too.
I think it's important when Italk about these is to also say
I read Communion with God, withJohn Owen.
I read a lot of the Puritanauthors really helped me.
Reformed authors helped me tothink deeper and to see how the
Lord really viewed me versus theway I viewed myself.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
And that really changed everything.
Of course I wish I knew that at21.
It would have changed.
And I think all the people youalways worry about, all the
people I did wrong to that Iprobably didn't mean to.
I thought I was trying to dothe right thing, much what we
talk about, but realizing thenlike if I knew then, what do I
know now?
But I have to trust sovereigntyof God to that, because when I
look back I think like, why didI ever take that church job?
Or why did I ever do this?
(17:45):
And it's just so dumb to dothat, because the Lord has put
it all together and the sameJesus has been with me then and
now, and police work and othertimes.
So, anyway, what are the keythings?
Okay, key things are.
Number one is um, uh, toidentify, uh, distorted thoughts
(18:07):
.
Or I like this this is good.
You gotta define it right orelse the christian will be off.
They'll be like that's psychobabble or if I say it to you and
you're in that.
So let's make it clear it's.
There's a bunch of terms, butdistorted thinking, you know,
cognitive distortions, they callthem another way.
(18:27):
Then they just say bad thoughts.
It's whatever you want to putin there.
Just understand there arethoughts we think that are goofy
.
You know they're just dumb, andwe know they're dumb and those
are the ones that probably hauntus the most.
It's like it's.
It's like.
You know that's not true, butit's driving you nuts, you know.
(18:47):
So example of a distortedthought for me would be so
stupid.
I would be worried.
I would be worried to travel.
For years, I didn't want totravel by myself without my wife
.
Okay, I never knew this.
(19:07):
Yeah, didn't want to travel bymyself without my wife.
So if there would be a worktrip or a, I avoided them.
Or if I would, they would haveto.
If I was going to go, they'dhave to be super busy all the
time.
Then I knew I'd be okay, butthere was a total fear that what
will I do at the end of the dayif I don't have my wife to go
with and go to a movie or dowhatever?
(19:29):
In case, just in case, I feelanxiety.
It wasn't that I was afraid tobe away from my wife.
I was afraid away from her allthe time.
So I had this.
At the same time, though, I wasconniving on how to get.
Really honestly, this is thetruth.
I wanted to be around the worstcriminals I could.
That's it Really.
(19:50):
That's the truth.
We wanted to be around the mostdangerous, not me only, but
other undercovers.
We wanted to be with the guys.
I remember getting a talking toan interview and interview.
I was working undercover and Iwas trying to get this, this
girl and this guy to commit ahomicide for me.
We were talking about they weregoing to be hit men for me.
And I'm in the middle of thisconversation and the guy says
(20:15):
shoot, and this is the days ofPolaroid.
He said shoot.
He said, if you want, we'll cuthis head off for you and take a
Polaroid To me.
That was a great day.
It was like, oh, this is great.
I got this guy talking aboutthis.
I can't believe this.
And here's I'm with thisterrible woman and the female.
There was a really dangerousfemale who had burned a guy
alive and she'd done all theseterrible things.
(20:35):
And I was so thrilled when Imet her.
She comes into the room, intothe room.
I was like, wow, this is great,it was great, and that's the
way I think.
And then I'm worried to get ina plane and go by myself to some
city for ministry or whatever.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, really insane.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
So that's distorted thinking, that's a distorted
thought.
So you have to ask yourself youtake the first thing as you
identify it.
You say uh, uh, by the way, didI need to be afraid in those
other circumstances with the badguys?
And I'll know I didn't need tobe afraid that I didn't.
We're not like saying that, oh,you should have been, you
should build yourself fear, no,no, no, I shouldn't.
Wisdom, yes, but we hadpreparation for all that.
(21:13):
Same way you should deal withyour other fears.
So distorted thinking was Icouldn't be alone.
So then you would ask yourselfwell, what's the real thought
there?
Is it that you can't be alone?
Say no, it's not that becauseI'm alone.
Is it that you would be in ahotel room?
That's what scares you.
No, I've been in a hotel room.
(21:34):
Can you be in a different placefrom your wife?
Yes, I can be a different placefrom my wife.
Four, can you?
You would uh ask yourself.
So what we would do is they talkabout this.
It's probably the easiest oneto remember is um, catch it,
check it, change it.
You actually taught me that.
I never heard that way ofexplaining this.
(21:55):
There's a chart we use in rbtand stuff, but I like that catch
because catch it is the thought.
This is stupid.
Why would I think I can't geton a plane away from my wife?
But how you do that is youcheck that thought and the way
you check it in one of the ways.
There's multiple different ways.
You can reframe that thought.
You can do a lot of things.
I personally like the Socraticmethod where you just saw me do
(22:17):
this.
You ask a bunch of questions toverify that what you're saying.
Is there evidence to prove it?
And we as Christians love that,because we as Christians, we
like saying if the Bible doesn'tsay it, we don't say it.
In other words, I don't have toworry about so many things that
we may feel they're wrong orwhatever.
If the scriptures aren't clearabout it, I don't have to worry
about it.
So we hold to that.
(22:37):
Is it biblically based thinking?
And that's what we want to dowith those distorted, those
catch that thought, check it,say wait, wait, wait.
Does the Bible say it?
Oh, when the Bible says that,does it mean this?
You sit and you work yourselfinto that.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Wait, with the Bible saying it, you're saying like
I'm afraid to travel without mywife.
You're saying the Bible doesn't.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Well, I would say first of all, does the Bible say
you should be afraid when youtravel away from your wife?
No, does the Bible say thatyou're restricted from travel
when you sit?
No, the Bible doesn't say that.
Does the Bible say that Jesusleaves you?
When you go into rooms, hotelrooms, by yourself?
Does the Bible say, or youmight.
Then, of course, you go toother things you just go to and
remember.
(23:16):
Our brains go like this Boomboom, boom boom.
Five million questions.
And I think of being like awitness on the witness stand in
federal court, and I canremember being on a witness.
I loved it.
I testified seven days straightone time in a federal trial and
I'm seven days on the witnessstand and the whole time they're
just hitting me with questions,questions, questions.
And that's what you want to dowith these distorted thoughts is
(23:42):
just put them on the stand andask, say okay.
So you work yourself down towhere you're, coming to your own
conclusion that, well, thehotel room isn't what scares me.
Being away from my wife doesn'tscare me.
Being not busy doesn't scare me, because sometimes I'm not busy
.
What is it that really scaresme?
Oh, I'm going to get thisfeeling.
Oh, what is that feeling you'regoing to get?
(24:02):
Oh, I get a feeling.
Oh, I'm going to get thisfeeling.
Oh, what is that feeling you'regoing to get?
Oh, I get a feeling.
Well, where is the feeling at?
It's in my stomach.
It's in the middle of mystomach.
What is it A feeling that makesyou?
Does it cause you greatphysical harm?
Do you have to go to a doctorwhen you have this feeling?
No, so you see what I mean.
And you're working yourselfdown to like realize this
distorted thought makes no sense.
And so you're catch it, checkit and then change.
(24:26):
It is where I say the scripturescome in so well, because then
and it doesn't always work thisway but then you can memorize a
lot of the scriptures that sayyou know, do not fear.
Or scripture says don't even bedismayed.
He says god is so gracious.
He says don't even, don't evenbe dismayed.
Or in matthew 6, in the greeklanguage, it says do not worry,
do not worry, do not worry threetimes.
Or do not fear.
He really says do not be uneasy.
(24:47):
And I think that's so helpfulfor us, because often we're just
uneasy.
We're not like.
You know, nobody ever knew Ihad these fears.
I mean, you lived in the housewhere you never knew I was
troubled by these things.
But uneasy that's a betterdescription of how we feel a lot
of times.
Just uneasy and so anyway, I canmemorize those verses to change
my thinking.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
And it's all like 2 Corinthians, 10, 5, take your
thoughts captive and submit them.
That's where it's like.
This isn't a sidestep fromScripture.
This is like a tool thatScripture encourages, that the
Lord wants to transform usthrough our mind.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
And so we can catch our thoughts, and that verse is
a really good verse on this.
It says to demolish arguments,and the only thing I would say
there is be careful to alwaysunderstand the scripture in its
context to make sure that itapplies to what you're doing,
but here, where it talks aboutgetting a hold of these thoughts
, it's really talking aboutgetting the arguments against
Christianity.
(25:39):
Demolish those arguments andget your thoughts under control.
This is really right, though,and he repeats it many times.
You know, one of the things Idid to manage my fears was I
memorized a lot of Scripture,and so I memorized.
When I was young, I memorizedbooks of the Bible, epistles,
and memorized large sections.
Colossians 3 is just one ofthose great passages that helps
(26:01):
you deal with all thosedifferent things, and by you
flushing your mind with the wordof God, it really helps you to
also think straight and to helpyou in that change of category.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yeah, it does.
Okay, so we have distortedthinking and there's different
categories for that.
There's black and whitethinking.
I have, like my kids chart init with kids terms of all the
different types of distortedthinking.
That can help you identify it.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Like in it with kids, terms of all the different
types of distorted thinking thatcan help you identify it like.
What's the term they use withkids?
Um well, there's pictures.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
There's pictures um so black and white thinking is
one of them um, there's a wholething you can look it up yeah,
black and white thinking isright out of cbt yeah, um, so
there's one, and then I hear youtalk about radical acceptance a
lot.
Is that something that hashelped you with fears in
particular, and what is thatconcept?
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Yeah.
So the idea of acceptancethere's, um, it's a little bit
of a danger on that one, I think, um, because what they're
trying to teach you is this isreally good, it's a Buddhist
thought.
It's a Buddhist thought thatsays, uh, accept things as they
are, not as you want them to be,or accept people as they are,
(27:05):
not as you want them to be.
Well, what I would say isaccept things as God made them,
not as you want them to be, oraccept people as God made them
not as you want them to be.
And the reason that matters isbecause I know I really hate it
when I hear Christians say it iswhat it is.
That's not true.
That's just not true.
It is not what it is.
(27:25):
Our wonderful Lord Jesus is ineverything that's going on.
We don't need to have thatfatalist attitude.
You know you're going throughstruggles right now.
I don't say to you it's of nohelp, nor is it biblically
coherent to say, well, you knowthat's life.
No, no, our sovereign God, heloves us too much for that.
So the struggles you're goingthrough, our Jesus is there with
(27:46):
you through them and I justwant you to see it better.
So anyway, radical acceptance.
The fear can be, if you go wrongon this, is you could say well,
I've got to accept you, nomatter what you do to me.
So you're in a relationshipwhere the person is abusing and
mistreating you and you say Ihave to accept everybody where
they are.
So I have to accept this personwho's abusing me.
I have to stay in therelationship.
(28:07):
No, you don't.
That's not what that's saying.
I mean, I don't know what theguy said, who came up with that
idea, but the Bible certainlydoesn't say that.
So my acceptance of people andmy acceptance of circumstances
is very wise and very healthy,because God made the
circumstances.
I got to accept them as theyare.
But how I react to thosecircumstances will help me a lot
(28:29):
.
Once I can accept them, then ithelps me if I can use those
other categories then to fightit back.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
So what's an example of how that helped you, either
in your police work or in a fearoutside of that, or a worry of
how radical acceptance actuallylooks?
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Well, one is to accept circumstances.
So they talk about mindfulnessand the idea of really I see it
as biblical gratefulness is I'msitting on a plane and I get
this flash.
Or I get a flash I'm going tobe on a plane Saturday night, so
I get a flash.
Now I'm going to have ananxious moment on that plane,
sitting by myself, right?
(29:02):
You say, well, if that happened, what would be?
I would accept that.
I'm on a plane, I'm around andto me I convert it to
gratefulness.
I'm around other people, nicepeople.
I'm in this nice seat on a niceplane, able to do things that
(29:23):
people only dream of in mostparts of the world.
I'm on my way to go see friendsthat are going to be happy to
see me, who want me to come.
You see what I mean.
And I'm going to accept thecircumstances they are.
I'm not going to try to changethem.
I'm going to accept them theway they are.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
And same with flawed people, I guess is a bigger
example of just like yeah, thisperson I love is that's how they
are and I can pray for them tochange and believe they'll
change, but accept the realitytoday instead of always pushing
against it.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
You have to deal with that in your marriage a lot,
don't you?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Actually right now with the relationship here.
No, I'm kidding, no, I think hehas to deal with that with me,
like she's Radical acceptance.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
My poor wife.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
My flawed wife.
We have a lot of irrationalfears and can all identify with
that in different ways atdifferent times, and peeling
back the layers to kind ofidentify what's what and and
catch it and change it is sohelpful.
What would you say to theperson that has actual real I
don't want to say real, they'reall.
They all feel very real buttangible, maybe logical,
(30:23):
imminent fears, which wouldapply to something on the police
department too.
What would you say to those?
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Yeah, I think one that's important is what would
we say?
We're laymen just trying totake a stab at this.
So really there's smart peoplewho are studying this, who could
give you really good advice.
For me, let's talk about mypersonal approach is with
legitimate fears.
Let's say, I have a legitimatefear that someone is going to
(30:50):
kill me on the police department.
So what do I do when thathappens?
I try to take that legitimatefear and I evaluate it against
evidence Again.
Is this fear based on?
Well, is it possible thatsomebody could kill you?
Yes, is it a high risk or a lowrisk?
Well, with the work I do, it'sa higher risk.
(31:10):
Oh, really.
What are the statistics?
How many undercover policemenhave been killed in Washington
DC?
Oh, well, it's only wow,there's only been one or two.
And how many years have therebeen police?
Well, there's been 200 years ofpolice, and there have been 200
years in Washington DC.
And how many police?
Oh, there's 30,000 or so at anypoint in the city.
All these different agencies,well, wait, what are the chances
(31:32):
?
And then, what do you fear Ifyou get killed?
What happens?
Is it the bullet hitting you?
Is it a knife?
Are you worried they're goingto push you off a building?
What are those fears?
And so you would help todelineate that, and the more
questions you ask, you'll findout based on evidence-based
thinking.
All I'm doing is reducing myfear, so I can get back out
there and do my job.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Do you think you should ever have?
Speaker 3 (31:53):
fear.
I think you know it's sointeresting because the
scriptures warn us do not fear.
Do not fear multiple, 300 times, some say 365.
Our wonderful savior, he lovesus and he doesn't want us to be
afraid.
He doesn't want us to live infear.
So no, he says there's no needto really fear.
But he also tells us that a manwho builds a tower, plans it
(32:15):
and thinks about it before hedoes, he'd be a fool not to.
And he gives multiple examplesof that.
Matter of fact, he uses that totry to prepare you to get right
with him, because he calls onus to remember eternity's
forever.
So he absolutely gives uswarnings to have us react and
get right with him.
So there is that.
But I would just say there's acouple things you do.
(32:35):
One is you plan, so you canmake a plan about your real
fears.
So it's a real fear that Icould be a policeman and die.
Okay, so let's do this.
How about a bulletproof vest?
Well, let's wear it.
We didn't used to wear it, nowwe'll wear it.
Should you carry a gun?
Yeah, how about you go with twopolicemen?
We know the statistics are less.
Get killed in twos Four.
Know more about your dopedealer.
(32:56):
Make sure he doesn't meet youalone in his area, pull him to
another.
You follow what I'm saying.
So we do all those things totake our fear that could be a
legitimate warning and we planas much as we can, but then,
after the Department of Planningis done, you can't still be
afraid.
You follow what I mean.
You've done everything.
Department of Planning has comeout.
They laid it out on thegroundwork.
This is what you're to do Nowyou're still afraid.
(33:17):
Now we've got to work throughthe check it, change it.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah, I guess I think of our like a very not basic,
but like a tangible example is,like some of our family members
who are afraid of getting sick,or even friends, it seems more
prominent.
I was just thinking yesterday,like is it post pandemic that
more people seem to be worried,especially for their small
children.
So let's say that rule appliesLike I'll just decide not to go
to like play places and I'lldecide to wash our hands every
(33:42):
time we leave school.
I'll do these few things, um toto not be fearful and this
isn't my particular fear,although it has been that of one
of our kids, and they hadtangible steps too for him of
just like carry a bag with, youknow, a water bottle in case in
a bandaid, and your mom's phonenumber if you need it, so you're
taking care of, in case youever feel have the, the clinic
(34:06):
at school be your safe spot incase you fear.
Having the feeling is what itwas for him.
Um.
So there's these tangiblethings we can do, but often
either that planning can takeyou too far, to where then
you're kind of trying to control, you know, your whole life and
outcome, or the planning is notenough and you still are fearful
, right?
So then what?
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Yeah Well, first of all, I was just thinking about
what a nice, wonderful group ofpeople that are at your kid's
school and that are in yourkid's life, that care enough to
have a little one to take itseriously enough because it's
serious to him.
So here's where you do, here'swhat you do.
All those things are just God'sgrace.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
And some of that is counsel.
Like we paid for counseling andI was just telling someone
yesterday, I think you know it'sclear in scripture that we're
to live in community and have awise counsel and a multitude of
counselors and sometimes in ourday and age, for better or for
worse, that sometimes as a paidresource, even though I feel
like that's unfortunate andthat's not accessible to
everyone, but sometimes thatlooks like paying to get
counseling which I feel likethis would be a way more robust
(35:05):
conversation if we had a umsomebody really knew what
they're talking about.
Yeah, Um, but uh, so that, to behonest, comes in that form, and
also medication, like youtouched on, and so that's very
valuable, but go ahead with whatyou're saying.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
Oh, I think that's great.
I think what you said is great.
You work with somebody and, and, and I have a fear of it.
It's called emetophobia fear ofthrowing up.
I don't know why I have thisfear.
I really don't have any idea.
But when you press people on itand you ask questions, it's
really helpful.
(35:39):
You know, you say are youafraid of the moment of throwing
up?
Are you afraid of getting sickbefore you throw up?
Are you afraid of the sensation?
Are you afraid of the toilet?
Are you afraid of being sick up?
Are you afraid of the sensation?
Are you afraid of the toilet?
Are you afraid of being sickforever?
Are you afraid of you?
See what I mean.
And when you answer all thosequestions, before you know it,
you start realizing well, wait aminute, I'm really only afraid
of something that lasts threeseconds, so why would I be
(36:01):
afraid of something that laststhree seconds?
So you're right now noddingyour head because you don't have
that fear.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
That why you're so comfortable.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
You're like, yes, yes , obviously, obviously, of
course and then you got yourgoofy fear and I'm here like
what do you think?
I have this friend who's reallypetrified of flying.
I mean petrified like he.
He gets drunk before he's onthe plane and he takes drink.
I mean, he's like very scaredof that and he's a police
officer too right was.
I don't mean to say that he wasusing drugs while he was a
policeman.
I'm just saying, when he got ona plane he was a tough guy.
(36:27):
He was a truly tough guy.
But when he gets on a plane itscares him.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
No, I'm just saying it adds context that he was like
your sidekick or, I don't know,your partner in all these
actual dangerous things and he'safraid of fire.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
He's retired, oh, so afraid so afraid, yeah, but at
people that were scared of COVIDand wearing masks and all, he
would get so mad.
So I just would have to say tohim you know which one's more
rational, which one's morerational?
Yeah, you know either one.
We're both dumb.
You know if we're over fear ofeither.
(36:58):
So it's just the way we are.
You know, I'm in a position ofstrength on so many fears people
have, because I only have a fewphobias I don't know about.
I'll thank the Lord I don'thave a thousand phobias, but
yeah, but you would use thissame method.
And if it's not clear, let memake it clear.
Catch the thought, figure out.
What is this distorted thought?
What is this thought thatdoesn't make any sense?
(37:18):
Why am I thinking that?
Figure out what that is andwhat's the bottom of it.
Second one you do is you checkit and that's how you get to the
bottom of it.
Me, I've only used one way here.
There's reframing, there'sblack and white thinking,
there's all different types ofthings you can learn, but I
figure, on a short time, bestthing I could teach you is
Socratic method.
So that just meansevidence-based thinking.
So take in your thought,whatever that crazy thought is,
(37:39):
and work it down and all you'retrying to do is just lower it,
make it less painful than it waswhen you got it, and then
change it.
And I think the word of God isreally helpful there.
Or reason, or ration.
The Lord's, the Lord's truth,truth is all truth, god's truth.
So if I say planes don't godown very often, I don't need a
verse to say that it's true.
Planes don't go down very often.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Yeah, and do you think people should face their
fears?
Are you for desensitization, ifthat, or just like you know?
This setting or this person orwhatever makes me fearful.
Do I face my fears?
Speaker 3 (38:11):
Well, let's say this, we can say a couple of things
for sure.
There's a couple of differenttherapies that work really well
statistically with human beings.
So CBT cognitive behavioraltherapy works with about 50 to
75% of humanity.
That ought to get our attention, ought to say, wow, it helps
that many people.
Maybe it's worth you know,learning about.
In the same way,desensitization is something
(38:33):
they use during rbt or cbt.
So do I like it, do I think ordo I recommend people go do it
just on their own, without atherapist?
I don't think I'm doing thatbecause I don't know what their
desensitization is like.
If mine was worried aboutgetting shot, you wouldn
wouldn't say, oh, go get shot.
You'd say, uh, wait a second,why don't you do it in other
(38:54):
ways, you know?
So, uh, you don't need to haveeverybody who's who's scared of
heights to stand on top of abuilding.
That isn't the first thing youdo, but with therapy it could be
helpful to desensitize some ofthat.
You know.
Just remind yourself wait aminute.
Nothing happened when thathappened, so it's okay.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Yeah, and with the mindfulness you touched on, I
think our nervous system, likeour bodies, respond Like we're
saying if there was a bear, youwould feel it, and so finding
ways to calm our nervous systemis really valuable, I think, as
you chug Diet Coke.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
As a way to reduce the amount and feelings of fear,
if you can first just usestrategies to calm yourself,
which there's quite a few.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
Yes, yes, there are quite a few strategies.
What's that?
Do you do that?
What's that?
Use strategies.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yeah, to feel calm besides the thinking part.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
No, I don't those other ones.
I've never learned that verywell.
Oh, I've done a few times thatbreathing deep through your nose
.
Yeah, I think that's good.
I mean it's absolutely good.
A matter of fact, again, it'sempirically proven, so it's.
It's gotta be good.
But it isn't something.
Yeah, I've heard all kind.
I mean I've had other peopletell me all kinds of things I
was supposed to.
I had a guy one time tell me tohold my head this way.
(40:08):
I don't know that stuff isn'teasy for me.
If it's logical and it'ssomething I can square with
Scripture or it's reasonable tomy little brain, I can do it.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
That's valuable to say too.
Not every strategy is going tobe a strategy that speaks to you
and where you're at it doesn'tmean you throw the baby out with
the bathwater.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
All counselors are all please, medicinal help or
all everything is is bad.
I think that's so critical.
If we say anything is toremember that if you try one
medicine, you're going to needthree before you get to the
right one often, and it's goingto take you six weeks or eight
weeks.
Okay, two.
Most people don't like thefirst counselor any more than
you like your first date withanybody.
So when, when you come home,your first day of work's not
good, your first day at churchis not good, your first day with
a counselor is not usuallygreat.
So the idea that we have tostick with things and give them
(40:59):
time and try to learn from themis so important.
I think it's so important.
Like REBT, remember I had thisin my ear, I mean for several
years before I used it, severalyears before I used it.
And that was me and I wassuffering, but I'm suffering on
my own.
Nobody knows I'm suffering, butI'm suffering on my own.
And then when the Lord got meto really listen to it and it's
(41:19):
been so helpful, you see what Imean.
So just understand it wouldhave benefited me to catch on
then instead of now.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
So do it today.
That's your charge, I think soyeah, Get help today.
Yes, we don't always have thetools within ourselves.
We need the Lord and outsideresources.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
Oh, and God's been so gracious to give us so many
resources and access to so manyresources, even for those who
can't afford counseling at all.
There's so much out there andGod's word is so good and
there's a pastor that willlisten to him as well.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Okay, so what do you view the difference from being
bold and reckless, you know, inyour work, in your parenting, in
your life, as far as managingfears and realities?
Speaker 3 (41:58):
I think I was thinking about, as you were
thinking about, that there was aterm in police work we call
being a cowboy, and of coursethat doesn't work as good in a
generation like ours where youdon't even see cowboy movies or
whatever.
We all grew up on cowboy movies.
So the cowboy was this guy onhis own who would kick down any
door, run in anywhere no fear ofanything, and he really did it.
(42:19):
The cowboy did it for his ownglory.
That was really the point.
So when he'd save the woman orwhatever, he'd walk out, you
know.
So cops would say look man,don't be a cowboy.
Okay, Go into this.
In other words, plan, do what'ssafe as much as you can.
It's still going to bedangerous, but do what's safe,
Don't be a cowboy, Don't be ajerk.
Basically, and I think in ourparenting is an excellent
(42:41):
example, as I have my grandkidsand I look at the, you know I
want to put them all in a boxand protect them until they're
old enough to protect themselves.
You know, they're too dumb toprotect themselves.
They got to, you know.
So I want to do that.
But that that isn't sensible,is it?
But on the other hand, I don'twant to be a cowboy parent where
I say, hey kids, live it up, dowhat you want.
(43:02):
And they're out climbing on theroof and I'm like do what you
want, You'll be fine.
That would be insane, Becausewhy?
Statistics would tell me thatit's unsafe for a four-year-old
to be walking on a roof.
In the same way, washing yourhands or not, we would have this
debate.
Is it important to not sharedrinks and wash your hands?
To me, there's evidence to sayyou're safer if you wash your
(43:24):
hands.
So what does it hurt?
Make the kid wash their hands.
Share drinks why do that?
We got enough disease in theworld.
Why do we want to share itaround?
To me, that's reasonable.
But if it gets to the pointwhere it's impossible, you know
you're on a trip, you only haveone drink, you don't have enough
money for one drink, andsuddenly everybody's going to
die of thirst because they can'tshare a drink, you see what I
mean.
But in normal throws of lifeyou could put certain boundaries
(43:47):
that are reasonable, and that'sjust.
That's not being reckless, it'sjust being bold.
I still can move forward.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
As a parent, I've created some things, but at some
point a child can get sick, orwhatever thing you're afraid,
yeah, yeah, it seems like maybeit's putting guardrails, for
safety being the key term andmaking sure that's, let's say,
in parenting for their safety,not for our fears.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
So I'm not going to let a four-year-old run into the
street for their safety, thatis going to harm them, but I
might.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
If I'm afraid of them going at the top of the slide
when they're physically able,that's my fear, maybe holding
them back, that can say I'mgoing to let you go down,
because that's just my fearholding you back.
So maybe assessing where thoseguardrails are.
Like as a cop, I'm going to goin, not without my bulletproof
vest, but with it.
But I'm still going to go inand I'm not going to let my fear
(44:38):
hold me back.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
Yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
So that's maybe a difference in not letting fear
hold you back, but obviouslysafety being at the forefront.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
There's a book that I should have read, but it's the
title of the book.
It says feel the fear and do itanyway.
That's a big one for me,because I always was like at all
costs, avoid feeling fear.
Avoid feeling fear.
Big thing for me was to say Ican feel that and still be able
to manage this situation and so,anyway, that's really important
.
As a parent, you got to feelthe fear and do it anyway.
Yeah, otherwise you don't havekids, you know, Otherwise you
(45:11):
don't date, otherwise you neverapply for a job.
Feel the fear of rejection andall those things, but do it
anyway.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
Do it scared.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
Yeah, do it scared.
I like that, you can alwayseradicate the fear, but yeah,
All you try to do is lower itand allow the Lord and the Holy
Spirit to help you manage it.
That's my opinion.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
Yes, okay, should we end on our classic.
What would you tell real quick?
What would you tell a cop, acriminal and a Christian about?
Speaker 3 (45:36):
fear.
Do you say real quick, becauseI was not quick in the past.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
No, your thoughts are quick.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
All over the place.
Yeah Cop.
What would I tell a cop?
Speaker 2 (45:47):
I mean, do you feel like most cops have less fear
than the average person andthat's what gets them into it?
Or do you feel like most ofthem are managing fear for their
job?
Speaker 3 (45:58):
All humans manage fear.
I don't know what thestatistics are on how anxious
certain people are than others Idon't know the numbers on that
but I would say all humansmanage fear.
So if they're reasonable, theyprobably have some fear.
I think in this day and agethey elevate fear too high and
they tell cops all the time youhave to be afraid of everything.
And they live in this worldlike being afraid of a terrorist
(46:19):
attack, a biological Now here?
We've never had one.
Does that mean that we don't,you know, prepare for it?
Yes, but it's not a realisticfear to think about all the time
.
It's a terrorist attack.
You need to go out and be thepolice every day, and most of
that time you're going to spendtalking to people in domestic
disturbance and so on.
So reduce that.
Don't let the fear stop you, Iwould say as a policeman.
(46:39):
Secondly, to the criminal Iwould say let fear drive you
away from where you're living.
Let the fear of God change youso that you're able to get
redemption from your life andthe freedom that only Christ can
offer.
And then for the Christian Iwould say look, get in the
business of digging into God'sword, loving his scriptures,
(47:00):
knowing the word more and, atthe same time, learning what God
has used and taught otherpsychologists and all, and
combine those two and watch howJesus can free you, liberate you
from the feelings that aredriving you nuts.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
That's really good.
Freedom is kind of the antidoteof fear in some ways.
Just living free to be who Goddesigned you to be and do what
he designed you to do, but wewon't be without that in this
life, but it also can help uslong for heaven, where there
will be no fear.
So this is really good, I thinkeveryone relates to it and
could be a whole series indifferent ways, and maybe we'll
bring on some of the pros.
Speaker 3 (47:33):
So thanks, it was good.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Was I not a pro?
Well, yes, you're a pro in yourown experience.
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