September 22, 2025 • 43 mins
We tackle the controversial claim that "if career growth matters, 100% remote is a trap," exploring whether physical presence in an office truly impacts your ability to advance professionally. Through personal experiences and practical advice, we dissect when remote work might limit opportunities and when it's irrelevant to career progression.
• Remote work may create a ceiling specifically for executive-level advancement, not necessarily for mid-level promotions
• The most crucial factor isn't location but having explicit conversations with managers about growth expectations
• Timing career conversations strategically is essential – approach after successful projects when management is receptive
• Promotions happen when you consistently perform at the next level, not because of time served
• Creating a quantifiable framework for advancement removes the subjectivity from promotion decisions
• Management paths require a different mindset than individual contributor roles – consider carefully before choosing this direction
• Being proactive about creating visibility opportunities can help remote workers overcome some visibility challenges
Join our Discord community for games like "Is it AI?" where we challenge members to distinguish between AI-generated and real images. Share this podcast with friends and colleagues who are navigating remote work career paths.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm going up While Craig is jumping here, I'm
elevating.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
He's already jumped in.
You've already missed thatopportunity.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
We've already started .
I'm elevating.
I can't see you.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
You couldn't have done this before.
I can't see you.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
No, please wait.
Please wait till I stand up.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Clark is just under his desk like a child hiding
from view from all of us.
Thanks, thanks for letting mestart the pod this way.
You're the reason.
You're the reason.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
They can't see this.
If only people could see thisand see what's happening around
us.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
They have no idea what's going on.
None, hey, you introduced thepod.
We're going to re-brand the pod.
Um.
I don't know if you guys knewthis or not, but um, clark is
very good at marketing.
Why don't you drop the new nameon him?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
drop it on him, you want.
You want me to say it.
Well, yeah, I was saying howI'm tired of things being named
things that they aren't like.
What's a splunk?
What's a?
What's a Splunk?
What's a Splunk?
Do you know what a Splunk is?
I?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
don't know what a Splunk is.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
What is a Hulu?
Yeah, what's a Hulu.
What's a Huli?
What's a Yahoo?
A Google?
A Google is a thing.
That is a thing.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
A Google is a thing.
What is a Facebook A?
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Facebook.
What is that?
A Facebook?
What is that?
See, facebook kind of makessense, myspace kind of made
sense, yeah, but nowadayseverything has these names.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Everything has a goofy name.
Yeah, it's ridiculous.
Anyone who names their producta goofy name on purpose just the
worst people, I agree.
Yeah, that's the worst, that'sthe worst.
There shouldn't be a lot inthis podcast.
That is for darn sure.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So, especially when they come up with acronyms and
then they use the acronyms tocome up with a word and it just
sounds absolutely ridiculous,those are the worst kind of
people.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
You know, there was a trend for a while where all
these companies Yahoo, facebook,google they put double O's in
their name because it was likeif you put a double O in your
name it was bound to mean thatyou were going to be a success.
Companies that followed suitwith that.
Just shameless, disgusting,despicable even.
(02:17):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
I agree Absolutely despicable, so throw out.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
CorporateStrategybiz Okay gone.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Done Website deleted this is going to be a
corporate-based self-helptechnology podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Rolls right off the tongue.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Yeah, I think that's what I mean.
Everybody just Googles that.
They say, hey, chatgpt, pleasegive me a satirical-based
corporate technology podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Did you just Jepete?
Did you Jepete, jepete?
Is that the game?
Is that the new game that theK-pop stars are all playing?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Jepete, jepete, jeopardy, jeopardy Got it.
Maybe that's what it's been allalong.
Chat Jeopardy.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
What is the question?
Welcome back to CorporateStrategy.
The podcast.
That could have been an email.
I'm Bruce and I'm Clark.
Oh, sorry, I messed it up.
Welcome back to the corporatepodcast based on technology,
corporate work, life, cultureand how to get ahead in life and
(03:28):
all things.
The podcast that could havebeen an email.
I'm Bruce and now we're talking.
I'm Clark and after that 18minutes, clark has just ran away
.
Clark ran away and he's runningback.
They can't see you.
They cannot see you.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Well, there was somebody at the door and I had
to go check the door.
But I'm back.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I saw you open the door.
No one was there.
Literally no one was there.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
That's what you think .
I saw something there.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Vibe check.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (03:59):
I got my pinky up.
They can't see this.
Hey, put your pinky up.
How you doing?
I'm in despair.
Yeah, chaos, yeah, confusion,yeah, yep, that's how.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I feel, yeah, let's just say, even on the weekend,
Even on the yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Even on yeah this is weird because we're doing it on
the weekend.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, this episode goes out tomorrow, so yeah, oh
wow.
This is like fast and furiousWell how are we going to have
time to?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
edit.
We spend so much time editingthis to make it so perfect.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I'm going to pull an all-nighter.
I don't know if you're going tobe able to do it.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
I would offer to help , but I just can't even touch
your masterpiece you just makeit worse.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah, I just all-nighter, all nighter for old
Bruce.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Well, our boy doesn't sleep, Craig, so at least he'll
be there with you.
But yeah, yeah, yeah, all thosethings just because there's a
new mandate, a new mandate formy company and I don't know how
I feel about it.
It's a return to office mandate, gross.
Yeah, it's finally happening tome.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
It's happening.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
And I don't know, I don't know how to feel about it.
So, for context, I started atmy job pre-COVID and I was five
days in the office, so like thatthat was normal.
I worked here for a couple ofyears before that happened, so
I've been here for quite a while.
And then COVID happened.
Obviously everyone went remoteand then we came back to a
hybrid, a hybrid workforce wherewe were three days in the
(05:26):
office, two days at home.
So it was really nice becauseyou always got Mondays and
Fridays.
You always had that to lookforward to as, like Friday you
close out the week, you easeinto your weekend and then
Monday you kick it off right,because you got that time where
you can focus and get thingsdone and get all prepped for the
week without being harassed bypeople in the office.
And yeah, they said in 2026 tothe office, for it's four days a
(05:49):
week.
It's not full five, but stillfour days a week.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
That's just yeah, you're done.
You're shameful.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
It's tough, it's tough, so I'm dealing with that
currently.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
I have come to the conclusion.
I would not mind working at alocation again, but it has to be
less than 10 minutes from whereI live.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Oh, yeah, yeah, I got a decent commute.
I got a decent commute on me.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
You have more than a decent commute.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
I would never.
It's a bit of a haul.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
I wouldn't do that three days a week if I was you.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
That's just too much of your life that's being taken
away.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I agree that's being taken away.
I agree it's been.
So I do agree with you, though,like something about the office
.
I've said it before in thispodcast I do like being in with
my team.
I have a decent size team soit's just nice to be in person
and see everybody that I workwith.
And so, like I love the splitof three and two, like that's a
really good split.
But I think to your point, acommute on top of, you know,
(06:43):
losing two more hourspotentially having to commute
and get ready for work and allthat, like two more hours of my
life just down the drain tocommute every day and get ready
for the office, it's it's a lotto ask, it's a lot to ask If
public transportation was morereadily available and if, um,
you know, traffic wasn't just sostopping.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
You know, I feel like people drive worse than they
ever have.
I mean, like you know, this isactually true Texting and
driving is more dangerous thandrinking and driving.
Now, really, and you can textand drive all day, right, people
aren't drinking at seven in themorning, well, that's true.
Office workers, so you aretruly just at more risk.
He's ran off again.
He's ran off and now a cat hasentered and it was replaced
(07:25):
Clark.
We have a cat as our newco-host.
Anything you'd like to say Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
That was an impersonation.
That was not my cat, that washis cat.
I just want to make that veryclear.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
I don't know if you all speak cat.
But it said Clark doesn't feedme enough, please feed me, speak
cat.
But it said Clark doesn't feedme enough.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Please feed me, I'm hungry.
Please, please.
Honestly, this cat isridiculous.
It is driven by food.
It is insane.
This cat will do anything forfood.
It eats the dog's foods.
It doesn't care.
Cat's a monster.
Cat's a monster.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
She's just hungry.
Yes, I agree, the traffic isthe worst.
So I think that's and it'sgotten really bad for us lately.
I don't know why it's gottenworse and worse where we live,
and you know, our area has justgrown so much that traffic is
just nightmarish.
So I would only want to workwithin a I wouldn't, you know, I
wouldn't even go so far as tosay 10 minutes.
I want to be like.
(08:31):
I want to be close enough to mywork that I could come home
have lunch if I wanted to, yeah,and not be a disruption, right,
like I could come home takecare of my dog if I needed to.
That's how close I want theoffice to be to my house.
So that's the only way I'll goback to an office.
Fair enough, interesting.
Interesting that you wouldbring that up as your vibe check
.
This topic, today's topic,actually comes from my wife, who
(08:54):
has been on the pod beforeSarah.
She saw this post and thoughtit was really good for our pod
and then I read it and I waslike, yeah.
So the title is If careergrowth matters, 100% remote is a
trap.
I'll read the body here Remotework is fantastic for life
(09:17):
balance, but there's a harshtruth.
If your goal is career growth,fully remote can actually hold
you back.
The people who can truly moveyour career sponsors, mentors,
decision makers aren't part ofyour daily schedule or
interactions.
You don't bump into them onTeams calls and a virtual lobby
won't replicate hallwayconversations.
Real career-moving moments areunplanned a quick chat by the
coffee machine, overhearing aconversation that sparks an idea
(09:39):
, or being in the right place atthe right time.
If you're fully remote, thosemoments never happen.
You'll be productive, but youwill also be invisible to the
very people who could open doorsfor you.
Full disclosure.
If you work for a tiny company,this doesn't matter.
In small teams, everyoneinteracts with everyone anyway.
But in large organizations,physical presence still gives
(10:00):
you access to opportunities youcan't schedule or slack your way
into, and that's the topic fortoday.
Do you agree with thisassessment?
And if you, do.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
How do we?
Speaker 2 (10:13):
help.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Maybe we should clarify a few things.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
All right, clarify Major career growth, major
career growth.
I think that, firstly, whatdoes that qualify, as they don't
say right.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
I think I think that matters.
I think that matters a lotbecause at least in I work at a
big firm Now we worked at alarge firm before.
I made small promotional jumpswithout being in person.
Yeah, Like a manager, likesoftware engineer to senior
(10:56):
software engineer, manager toeven senior manager.
But then there's a rank of yourcareer you get to specifically
the executive rank that having aphysical presence is the only
way you're breaking that ceiling.
Even if you do amazing work andyou're never around.
No one ever sees you.
(11:16):
You're not going out and havingdinners or going on business
trips with people.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
You'll never break that ceiling let's remove the
executive rank from thisdiscussion, because one I don't
think the majority of ourlisteners are aiming for vp and
above right, like, let's, let'scap it off at director, because
I agree with you, I do think foranything above the director
(11:44):
level, if you're not at acompletely remote company, which
I am, um, you're not going tomove past that, like it, it does
require presence and we knowthat from our previous or at
least the job we worked attogether.
I'm sure you know that from thejob you work at now.
Like, yeah, that is true, like,like you have to be there.
It has to be a presence thing.
(12:05):
Upper executive managementpresence is required, unless
you're at a fully remote companyor, like the poster says, a
small company.
So let's go director below,basically, you still have
responsibility.
It's not management orleadership, is it still true?
Speaker 1 (12:26):
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
I don't either, because I know I do think this
is a perception.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
I agree.
I agree with you Because Ithink back to where we worked
before.
I was promoted.
My whole team was-.
Yeah, we worked at Big Corptogether.
I was promoted, but my wholeteam was gone.
Even my manager wasn't local.
So I was the only one at ouroffice from my team and I still
was promoted even though I neversaw them.
I never even met them when Iwas promoted.
(12:54):
I've just met them virtually.
We just worked togethervirtually.
And then I think to my company.
Now I've promoted two peoplethat were employed at the time
of COVID before we went to thehybrid back in office, because
they were remote, they livedelsewhere.
And they did end up movingbecause they do have career
aspirations that are way higher.
(13:14):
So that was kind of the realityof the fact of any future
growth that they want into theexecutive ranks are going to
have to start building apresence.
But I think they got promotedbecause they did great work and
that's what companies should belooking at, not the physical
presence.
They did great work and that'swhat companies should be looking
at, not the physical presence.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
What do you think?
So tell me your personal story,personal story time.
Can I agree with you?
I think we're on the mark there.
I got into marketing fullyremote and met the guy one time
at a conference.
We talked and he's like youshould join marketing and that's
how I got there.
But even thinking today.
So I do work for a smallercompany, so clearly take this
(13:53):
with a grain of salt, but I'vebeen at this company approaching
four years now.
I've been in my director roleand you know I applied for a VP
role.
Didn't get it, wasn'texperienced enough Like that's
fine, I truly wasn't.
And I don't think it would havebeen a good move for me anyway,
given other political thingsabout the job.
And I don't think it would havebeen a good move for me anyway,
given other political thingsabout the job.
But I said I need to move up,like I had that conversation.
(14:14):
So I was given a career growthpamphlet, path, whatever you
want to call it, but itbasically outlines what I need
to do over the next X number ofmonths to hit my next step.
I had that conversation with mymanager Basically, hey, this
didn't work out, but I need togrow.
I need to show growth.
What do I need to do to getthere?
And he provided me with anoutline and, unfortunately for
(14:37):
me, I'm doing like 90% of ittoday, so I'm in a good spot.
That conversation led to megetting the thing I needed to
clarify the rest of the stepsthat I need to take, which I'm
(14:58):
going to do.
It's as easy as that, and Ithink that the thing that people
aren't comfortable doing ishaving that initial conversation
right, basically saying likehey, I work hard, I feel that I
bring great value to the company.
What do I need to do to get thenext step?
And then, if there is not anext step, what do I need to do
to further my growth andadvancement here, whether it's
(15:19):
in your department, anotherdepartment, but you have to be
able to have that conversationwith either your manager, your
direct report manager or skiplevel right, because there is
the possibility that you're ashigh as you go under your
current management strain andyou need to have a skip level
conversation with that nextperson and say, hey, look, I'm
interested If I could like.
I think the problem that theposter for this comment has, and
(15:41):
a lot of people out there have.
There is a fear that if you askfor something in corporate
you'll get punished or they'llsay no, and that's possible.
No is always a possibility.
But if you do have value withthe company, if you are a good
corporate worker and a corporatecitizen, they're not just going
(16:03):
to say no because they want tokeep you.
So you expressing interest inthe next step one HR should have
a career path growth plan foryou, or a rough idea, or you go
build one.
But that first conversation isso important and if they do say
hey, you're not ready, you say,well, what do I need to get
there?
Like, is there a career plan ofpath or growth that I can start
(16:27):
working on, looking at?
Can we build out a year-longplan?
Can we build a six-month plan?
You take that action.
It's managing up and it'smanaging your growth and
expectations of growth.
But I don't think that mattersif you're in a remote role or in
a physical location, becauseit's really about you and your
ability to execute based on theexpectations of what comes next
(16:48):
100% agree.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
I think you get so many good tips there and
something going back to thebeginning of what you said that
I think is really important tocall out is you said they're
afraid to ask because they couldget told no.
The way I'd rephrase that isthe worst thing they could say
is no, they're not going to fireyou for asking for a promotion.
(17:10):
You're saying hey, I want todedicate more time to this
company and be more dedicated toit and be more influential to
it.
Like the worst thing they'regoing to say is sorry, no, and
like, if they do that, you kindof get your signs right there of
like, okay, I probably don'twant that anyways.
If they're just going to flatout tell me no and then not give
me any direction, this isprobably the wrong place to be.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Couldn't agree more, and I don't think that has
anything to do with remote ornot remote.
Right, that's a managementproblem, not a remote slash,
non-remote problem.
I think the issue really comesin with.
People don't have the kind ofcomfort with remote
conversations that they had inperson.
(17:52):
When you did a meeting in yourboss's office and you're sitting
in the comfy chair, you'relooking at them and they're at
their desk, there might've beenmore camaraderie there and
comfort than talking to a screen, which I can see that being a
barrier for comfort and buildingup that relationship with your
manager where you feel like Ican have this conversation and
even if they say no, I'm able toask why or ask for more details
(18:15):
and push forward.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, I agree, something I'd say is really
(18:38):
important.
Let me ask you this, ask me,let me lay this on you.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Lay it on me.
Let me lay this on you.
This is a very important point.
I don't even bring up thingsthat I need sometimes because I
read the web.
I'm like I really need my bossto review this document, but
it's not due for two weeks andthey seem like they're dealing
with a lot today.
I'm not going to add to that.
I might schedule hey, can I get15 minutes on Thursday, like
(19:04):
you know, just to follow up andthen okay, they're a little more
calm, even keeled now.
Now I'm going to go in for thereview, whatever, but I think
that's a that's a bigger pro tipthan just this is always read
the weather when talking tomanagement, especially about
something as important as yourcareer.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Right.
You got to know like, yeah,this is so key, it's.
No, I don't think the remoteversus physical has any bearing
on it, but bringing up things atthe right time is so critical
to understand.
When am I actually going to getthe things I need?
Do I have the right audience?
Is it the right time toactually ask this?
(19:44):
Like what you said, like I knowI've been working with my boss
for a long time and they'regreat, and I know they have bad
days, they're human.
Said like I know I've beenworking with my boss for a long
time and they're great and Iknow they have bad days.
They're human.
Yeah, just like everybody else.
Everyone does.
Yeah, everyone has bad days.
And if you're getting into theconversation, you know I always
tell my team.
I'm like, when you're doingskip level meetings with my boss
, your boss's boss start withsome softballs, just so you can
(20:06):
gauge the temperature of theconversation.
And I always have alternateplans.
I don't even do thisintentionally.
I just know the things that Iwant to bring up depending on
the context.
I'm like, if things are burninghot, I'm going to stay away
from these topics.
I'm just not going to bringthem up this time.
I'll wait till the next time wetalk.
But if things are light andbreezy and we're laughing and
joking, I'm like here's the timewhen I can bring up the things
(20:28):
that I want.
This is when it's going to bemost influential and they're
going to want to have aconversation.
But they'll be more open to itbecause it's the right time to
ask about, you know, newstaffing, when they're like
don't you have enough resourcesIf I need money, if I need, you
know, travel approved, like allthose things they can be real
sticklers on because ofbudgetary reasons.
But if the day is right, it's areally easy conversation.
(20:49):
If the day is wrong, it's goingto be a bad look and they're
going to look at me and be likeare you serious?
You're asking that, and that'sgoing to paint in their mind for
the rest of the day.
It's like I was burning hot.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
They asked these stupid things which made my day
even run, even hotter, and nowlike I doesn't matter whether
you're remote or whether you'rea person, but build some rapport
so you can read the room alittle bit, because there's a
time and place you should askfor things.
There absolutely is, and Iwould take this one step further
and say it's not even theweather of the day.
(21:19):
If you're finishing up a bigproject, if you just got it over
the finish line majormilestones, celebration,
achievement time that's a greattime to check in with your boss
and say, hey, I just finishedthis, we just launched this
whole thing.
It was a great success.
You know, I'm so, I'm so happywe're through it.
(21:39):
But, you know, thought we wouldhave a conversation about what
comes next.
Right, Like it's such an easyend once you've done that,
because you're coming off yourown coattails.
You did this big thing.
Now it's time to have aconversation.
Hey, we just shipped.
We just shipped a product, wejust finished a huge sprint.
You know, I just laid off 20%of the staff because I'm in HR.
Like, whatever you did, that'sgood and celebratory.
That's when you go in for the.
(22:01):
What are the steps?
Let's have a conversation aboutthat.
And I think something elsethat's really worth pinning is
promotions and growth.
Don't just happen becauseyou're there.
It's a trap a lot of peoplefall into.
I think bad organizations dothis.
Where you came in as anassociate, you did your job.
You got promoted to regular.
(22:21):
You got promoted to senior.
You were there five years.
You get promoted to seniorprincipal, whatever Time does
not equal growth at a company.
You could technically getpromoted every year if you look
at the path and plan and you'reexecuting at that next level and
that's the thing you have to beable to prove you can do the
(22:44):
job that you're looking for, notthe job you're in today.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, 100%.
No, I think those are all greattips.
If you read the room, if you'rehaving the conversation at the
right time, I think those thingsare a combination for success.
Yeah, because to your point,you can go in and be, like man,
so proud of the team.
We pulled an all-nighter lastnight.
We got our fourth release done.
In the first quarter we onlycommitted to doing three.
That's so huge.
(23:07):
And then you can kind of easeinto, you're like, okay, yeah, I
feel like you know I'm steppingtowards that next level, that
senior level, whatever it is,and I'm already hitting my goals
, as you can see.
Like, what else do you need tosee so that I can get to that
next level?
That's the perfect time.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I love that it really is.
And I think the other thing isyou can't expect it to happen
overnight, right, like it'snever going to happen overnight.
You have to be willing to workwith the system.
Hr is almost always involved inthe process and you need to
have the expectation that you'regoing to do more, because the
whole reason you're gettingpromoted is because you're
taking on more responsibilitythan what you had before.
(23:43):
It might be differentresponsibility, but it's
responsibility all the same.
You don't just get promoted forexisting yeah, a hundred
percent.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
You can't just sit there and be like well, I've
been here for 10 years, like Ishould be at that level, like
that doesn't matter, like thatgets you more doesn't matter
Exactly.
But if you're not having theright conversations with your
manager, with people around youat the right time, so that that
won't mean anything, cause, toyour point, you're just going to
get the standard bonus everyyear if the company does well,
maybe a little bit more, whichisn't a bad thing.
Some people ride out of thecompany for like 20 years
(24:10):
because every single year theyhave a great incentive program
and they can basically just ridethat wave for a long time and
be perfectly happy.
People should do that.
That's not a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
I think that's worth discussing too, because
oftentimes promotion issandwiched with pay raise, right
, right and like the expectationis well, if I get a promotion,
I get a big bump.
Maybe, maybe, yes, you mightget.
It depends, uh.
And I think the other thingthat goes adjacent with this is
(24:41):
you will reach a level whereyour next step is no longer
doing the job you do today, plusplus plus.
It is now management, and youreally have to think long and
hard about do I want to stopdoing the work I'm good at, to
start doing the work of managingpeople who are good at the job
I used to do?
And I made this mistake bysaying, yes, I do, and I regret
(25:05):
it every day of my life.
So really think long and hardabout that before you jump in
and find yourself managingpeople, which you didn't really
actually want to do, but youdidn't know at the time, you
didn't want to do it.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
It's funny because I'm on the opposite side of that
trajectory.
It was hard because you go andI'm actually having this
conversation with someone on myteam about this right now and
it's so hard because you gothrough your career and what
gets you promoted is doingreally, really well at executing
.
Whatever it is you do best,whether it's programming,
marketing, whatever and then youget to a point, to your exact
(25:46):
point.
There it's once you get intomanagement, you're no longer
doing those things.
No, now you're not judged onthose things.
It doesn't matter if you pulledan all-nighter and you got one
thing done.
It matters.
What is your team doing?
Like, is your team executing?
Are you doing more than you cando individually?
That's the way I look at it issaying you hit a point when you
(26:08):
have to ask yourself am I okayjust doing all that I'm doing
now?
Or with a team, could I havelarger influence?
You know, do even better work.
And that was kind of the pivotpoint for me is saying I love
being an executor, but I canonly do so much on one person.
You know, if I had a team and Icould build this team and kind
of grow them the way that I havegrown throughout my career.
(26:29):
I think we can, you know, do100x what we're doing now,
depending on the size of theteam, and so that's the fun part
.
But it is challenging to getyour head out of that mode of
saying I can pull an all-nighterand get this done, because then
when you have a team, it's likeI can't, that's four people's
jobs right there, I can't dothat by myself.
And then you get fulfillmentfrom your team doing well and
your team growing, which is likea totally different side of the
(26:51):
coin that you're not preparedfor.
Once you go into management,you're like wait, the things
that I did yesterday don'tmatter in my role today.
And the answer is yes, that'strue.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Unless you're at a startup, in which case you have
to do the job you used to do,plus management.
You do both, which let me tellyou what a treat, what a
pleasure and a privilege it is.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
I have an interesting angle on this too.
At some companies there is nodefined career path.
But if you love the company andI did this at my current
company I was a high achiever.
I got onto the right projects,which got me a lot of visibility
and I've grown quite a bit.
I've been like a quick riser inmy company now.
But what I wanted to do is, onceI went into management to your
(27:37):
point is, I told myself, I'mgoing to influence change, to
make this easier for my team tounderstand how they can grow and
not just make it like, oh yeah,bruce has been doing all this
stuff.
He feels ready and like nothingquantifiable.
I write up a few like points ofprojects he was on and like
that's it.
I'm like I want to tell my teamdefinitively you are meeting
(27:58):
the expectations of your currentlevel and actually you're
meeting the expectations of thenext level too.
So we have to promote you.
Like there's no way we can justsit here and be like, eh, it
doesn't feel right.
Like there's no way we can justsit here and be like, eh, it
doesn't feel right, maybe not.
It's like you are doing thethings, and so for the last year
and a half, maybe even longer,with my team I've been building
kind of a framework for how toshow that someone's going above
and beyond their current role,so that when we get into these
(28:20):
conversations we have a standardto work off of and we can
basically say, well, thisperson's meeting this criteria
at the meets expectations.
This person's needs development.
This person is actually goingabove and beyond.
So that way it's no longer likethis gray, does it feel right?
Conversation it's more of blackand white.
Are they doing the things theyshould be doing or not?
And are they doing the thingsthat they should be doing at the
(28:41):
next level?
If the answer is mostly yes,it's likely time for a promotion
.
Yeah, yeah, I, it's likely timefor a promotion.
Yeah, yeah, I've had thefortunate.
I would say I'm kind offortunate in a way that the
group I work in has grown fromlike five people to like 70, 80
people now.
So like I've gotten the benefitof being able to do this as
(29:03):
I've grown.
And define this for peoplecoming up like, as you're
evolving, a part of anorganization, I would say, if
you're already in an establishedorganization and you're just
like, yeah, you know, just whenit feels right and you have a
thousand people in yourorganization.
That's not a good sign, becausebeing able to influence that
change is going to be really,really hard and there might just
be stuck in the ways that theydo things and in this case, all
(29:31):
the way back to the originalprompt.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
You may have to make a physical presence to make any
movement with that type ofsituation.
Yeah, and I think that's thetrick is I do believe that you
can find companies that fallinto both sides of the answer
and if it's a completelyphysical company, you need to be
on site anyway.
You are belaboring this at thebeginning of the pod.
You're getting asked to go inmore.
(29:53):
You're not going to deal withthis problem for very much
longer.
Your remote presence it willcompletely vanish in the next
few years.
Other companies that are goingfull remote they have the
opposite problem, where there'sstill some people still in
offices as they transition out,or hybrid companies.
That's going to be really hard.
(30:13):
That's why it's so important toget those quantifiable career
path development plans and ifyour boss doesn't have it, you
need to have a conversation withthem and say, hey, how do we
build this?
Do we need to work with HR?
Do we need to look at othercompanies out there?
But I want to make sure that Iknow what I need to be doing,
that I'm not doing today to getto my next step, because that
(30:33):
shows that you're invested inyou and what you need to do for
that next step.
There's really no arguing withit, right, Like they can't say
no to that because for them it'spure career development and
guidance.
If you're not doing some reportthey want you to start doing.
They can tell you and you canstart doing it.
Then you can have thatconversation.
Hey, I'm doing this report now,so I'm doing my job plus the
(30:55):
report.
What's next?
Like, keep building, keepadding on and you'll get there,
Unless your boss sucks and he'sjust, you know, giving you more
work because they don't want todo it themselves.
But outside of that, outside ofthat weird off chance
happenstance, you have to beable to push for your own growth
, and that's really somethingI've learned at startup.
(31:17):
Right Is no one's going todefine that for you.
You have to help define it foryourself.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's that's, I think, the
best thing you can do.
I think maybe, as a follow-up,we should do the next episode on
this part, which is how do youmanage up?
So that way you can be giventhe opportunity to do the thing
that you need to do to get tothe next level.
Because there is a point Ithink it's even worse at a
(31:43):
remote company where you don'tknow the conversations that are
happening outside of your realm,but because you're not getting
the right FaceTime, becauseyou're not in the right rooms,
because you're not doing theright presentations, you're not
getting that visibility to getyou to that next level.
And so I think maybe in thenext episode we kind of break
that down of, like, how do youbreak through that ceiling of
being like Bruce as my boss?
(32:03):
I know I build thesepresentations for you every
month.
Do you think I could have ashot at presenting them, like
all the work our team's doingand like different tactics, like
that to try to get to the nextlevel?
Speaker 2 (32:20):
This will be perfect for the next episode because
actually on my plan, I need tohave a conversation with my
manager about this.
There is a thing that I waslike I used to have insight into
this I no longer do.
How do I go about achievingthis now, Like, and I will have
that conversation with my bossand I can report back during the
next episode about what Ilearned and how I can help you
all do the same.
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's the hard real time.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Yeah, you actually no-transcript because you're
(33:03):
succeeding right, like you'regiving something up for them,
which is one less thing that youhave to do.
That's a great problem to have,and the counter to this is, as
a manager, I'm starting to haveconversations with individuals
on my team for their next steps,as I'm planning my next steps,
because I don't want to do allof this stuff in my next role.
I want them to do more, so itdoes go both directions.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
As a manager, I can tell you there's no better
feeling than presenting in ameeting forever and then someone
on your team being ready andyou being able to step back and
just sit watch, smile as they'rejust crushing it.
It's like that was incredible.
Less work for me and they'reabsolutely crushing it.
It's like that was incredible.
Less work for me and they'reabsolutely crushing it, which
would be great for their career.
Everyone's looking at this andsaying, yeah, clark's actually
doing really well, because bruceis doing well.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Let's do it well, we'll save it for the next
episode.
Then managing up.
Stay tuned up.
Before we leave.
There is something that youhave been teasing for months now
.
Oh my gosh, I feel terribleit's been years.
It's been years and we're hungryfor a burger and we want to
know.
In our corporate strategypodcast show notes you can click
(34:13):
the link all the things you canjoin our Discord.
In our Discord we play a coupleof games.
One is called what Do you Mean,where you make a meme of the
previous episode.
One is called what Do you Mean,where you make a meme of the
previous episode.
One is called Is it me or is itcorporate, where you can
forward slash, confess and putyour corporate sin in there and
we'll tell you if it's you or ifit's corporate.
It's completely anonymized.
But the third, our newest gamewe play Is it AI?
Clark posted a picture Eightmonths ago.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
It was not even three weeks ago, but okay.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Eight months ago he posted a picture of the Discord.
It's absolutely been chewing usall up inside.
He even made us vote on it.
It's two pictures of ahamburger.
Both pictures look good, butone looks better.
I said number two is not AIClark.
Would you please do us thehonor of telling us which of
(35:02):
these is real?
Speaker 1 (35:03):
We have the left and the right, the one or the two,
and in the game you have to voteon which one is the AI.
Oh no, don't tell me, Don'ttell me, you got this flipped,
alright, okay, revote, revote,live.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Which one is AI?
The one on the left?
The one on the left is AI.
Number one.
I changed my vote.
A real-time vote.
I misread.
The real burger is the burgeron the right-hand side, number
two.
Number two.
I'm sticking with it.
Okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
You just broke the news.
That is 100% true.
I was shocked because therewere a few people who said it,
including you, which said theright-hand side was the AI
generator.
I was like, wow, is it thatindistinguishable?
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I am dyslexic and I misread everything, so I believe
the number two image to be thereal image.
I stand by that.
I stand by that with all of mybeing.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
And you're right.
Number two is the real image.
The left-hand side is theAI-generated one, but this
proves my point.
How do you know?
Tell me what are the signs.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
It's the bread, especially if you look at bread
number one, the rim around thebottom of the top piece of bread
and the bottom of the bottompiece of bread.
It's it's too flat.
There's no imperfections andbread has lots of little
imperfections because you knowit's chemistry happening there.
The middle, all of the breadthat's not the edges looks right
(36:38):
but the edges look wrong.
I think it's really hard tocreate something organic like
that with AI.
It's great at you know bigpicture, but it lost me on the
bread.
The bread is what gave it away.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Yeah, I also think the, the, the cheese is a
telling sign, like to your pointaround, like chemistry, like
when cheese melts, it's neverperfect because unless you have
like a perfectly heated piece ofcheese with like a gun like you
see on the, like a heat gun,you know, on the right-hand side
you can just see it's oozingout places like towards the edge
, the corners are kind of likeperfect, because it's not
(37:12):
getting equally distributed heat, but like in the middle the
heat is just right on it Likethere's nothing hanging.
So it kind of like doesn't keepthe perfection if you will now
you know.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
What's funny is I actually thought the cheese was
pretty good because I justassumed it was crappy cheese
like it's that crappy fakeprocessed cheese, whiz cheese,
and that is why it looks soyellow and goop.
Yeah, because it's just fake.
I will also say the funny thingis the tomatoes, yeah, uh, or
are they onion like?
And that's the thing is likeit's almost onion purple on the
(37:44):
left, but look at the lip, butit's really supposed to be
tomato.
Yeah, look at the lip.
And if you're not, if you'renot in the Discord, this is your
perfect time to actually lookat the image with us.
The lip on the left tomato thebottom of it matches identically
with the one on the right.
So it was clearly trained onthis image to recreate the
tomato look, but it just thecolor's a little off, like it's
(38:06):
like am.
I a tomato or am I an onion?
Speaker 1 (38:09):
I don't know which one?
I 100% agree.
That definitely looks like whatit is.
Yeah, but it's still like asyou look at these, which is the
crazy part lighting shadowsreflections.
It's a great image it is such agood image and like, even like
the burger, like the way thecamera like fades it out and
everything like, as you lookbetween them, you're like holy
(38:30):
cow, it's really hard to telland so we had a lot of people
get this wrong and I I totallyget why.
This is why we're continuingthis channel, this, uh, this
kind of challenge, because Ithink it's only going to get
harder to distinguish.
We need to train ourselves.
Yeah, if they get burgers right, how long is it going to be
before they get humans?
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Yeah, no, it's true, and I mean the.
The sad truth of it is, this isa challenge, right?
We have two images side by side, so we have the ability of like
, really looking at it andguessing.
But if you just posted thepicture of that burger and
didn't include the comparison,how many people would actually
say that I think that's AI?
Like I don't even know if Iwould.
(39:10):
I don't know if that picture byitself just posted on a random
channel on the Discord Just atethis today, I'd be like man,
he's a good food photographer,but I wouldn't think that's AI.
I just think, oh, it's a goodlooking burger.
Yeah, absolutely.
Because I'm not looking for itright, Like I'm not looking for
it and it's good enough that itcould fool me.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah, 100% agree.
Now we still do have one outthere which wasn't really asked
if this is AI or not.
It's the crab, the very firstpost in this channel, the crab.
That crab is real.
We never got an answer, but Iam convinced too that there's no
way this crab is not real.
I'm zooming in on it right nowit's got to be real.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
That's a real crab.
It's got to be real.
Crabs are aliens and AI can'tdo alien.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Yeah, that's why we need Aiki to answer this.
We need Ake to answer this, ike.
We need Ike to get in theDiscord and tell us was this AI
or not, because, yeah, I agreewith you, I think it's just an
awesome crab that they found.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Who doesn't love an awesome?
Speaker 1 (40:10):
crab, I agree.
Well, hey, that's the first ofthe challenge.
I got to do another one.
Maybe one a month.
Yeah, maybe one a month.
Yeah, maybe one a month.
Let's do it Like we'll do onefor October or something, and if
other people want to post inhere, they are more than welcome
to.
But I think this is going to bereally interesting.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Yeah, I'm ready.
This is good.
I like this.
This is a fun one.
Again, if you're not in theDiscord, you're not just
missingically in real time.
We have whole channels aboutmarketing yourself, about local
events, mentorship, newseverything is in there.
(40:46):
You should be in there, youshould join the conversation
with us.
It is our corporate fam discordand you can join it for free.
Just click the link and do it.
The other thing you can do ifyou want to support the show is
share this with your friends,family, neighbors, or if you
don't like sharing, you can makea donation through the buy us a
coffee link, Also in that samelittle doobly-doo.
Anything else, Clark?
(41:07):
No.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
I love a doobly-doo.
Yeah, share, buy a baby onesie,do it all.
We have a swag store.
Yep, what do you mean?
What do you mean?
Chips, everything, everythingyou could ever want is there.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Get in there, get in there, and next week, like Clark
Tease, we will follow up with aManaging Up episode.
So if you have any questionsabout Managing Up, post them in
the Discord and the CorporateStrategy channel specifically
and we will tackle them head on.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Oh yeah, apply directly to the forehead Could
add a VA, apply directly to theforehead.
Could have had a VA, rememberthat.
Could have Not sponsored.
Oh yeah, not sponsored, but youcould have had a VA.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Yeah Tang, it's a kick in the glass.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
VA doesn't exist anymore, right.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
V8 Splash.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
I haven't seen it.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
I love when you come back from a good old old company
who's great at marketing andyou're just like are they still
alive?
Is that a thing?
V8 splash.
All right, hold on, maybevegetable juice.
V8 splash juice drinks.
No, it says, you can have aTarget.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
I was going to say I think I had tomato juice on my
flight back from Colorado and Ibelieve it was a V8.
Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Could have had a V8.
They need to bring thatmarketing slogan back.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
That was great.
I mean Tang.
Bring back Tang.
You know it's a kid in a glassNow in the pouch.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Mmm.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Mmm, mmm, it's what plants crave.
Hey, appreciate you, clark.
Hey, you too, thanks as always.
Thanks as always for bringingthe heat and hopefully your
situation, with your commute andyour office, resolve themselves
peacefully and kindly.
It's the best we can hope forhere's hoping here's hoping.
(42:57):
But until then, thank you asalways to our listeners for
tuning in.
Do share the pod.
It's the only way we grow, weappreciate.
Until then, thank you as alwaysto our listeners for tuning in.
Do share the pod.
It's the only way we grow.
We appreciate you, we thank youand until next time I'm Bruce
and I'm Clark and you're on mute.
We'll see you next week.
I'm going up While Craig is jumping here, I'm
elevating.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
He's already jumped in.
You've already missed thatopportunity.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
We've already started .
I'm elevating.
I can't see you.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
You couldn't have done this before.
I can't see you.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
No, please wait.
Please wait till I stand up.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Clark is just under his desk like a child hiding
from view from all of us.
Thanks, thanks for letting mestart the pod this way.
You're the reason.
You're the reason.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
They can't see this.
If only people could see thisand see what's happening around
us.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
They have no idea what's going on.
None, hey, you introduced thepod.
We're going to re-brand the pod.
Um.
I don't know if you guys knewthis or not, but um, clark is
very good at marketing.
Why don't you drop the new nameon him?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
drop it on him, you want.
You want me to say it.
Well, yeah, I was saying howI'm tired of things being named
things that they aren't like.
What's a splunk?
What's a?
What's a Splunk?
What's a Splunk?
Do you know what a Splunk is?
I?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
don't know what a Splunk is.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
What is a Hulu?
Yeah, what's a Hulu.
What's a Huli?
What's a Yahoo?
A Google?
A Google is a thing.
That is a thing.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
A Google is a thing.
What is a Facebook A?
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Facebook.
What is that?
A Facebook?
What is that?
See, facebook kind of makessense, myspace kind of made
sense, yeah, but nowadayseverything has these names.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Everything has a goofy name.
Yeah, it's ridiculous.
Anyone who names their producta goofy name on purpose just the
worst people, I agree.
Yeah, that's the worst, that'sthe worst.
There shouldn't be a lot inthis podcast.
That is for darn sure.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So, especially when they come up with acronyms and
then they use the acronyms tocome up with a word and it just
sounds absolutely ridiculous,those are the worst kind of
people.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
You know, there was a trend for a while where all
these companies Yahoo, facebook,google they put double O's in
their name because it was likeif you put a double O in your
name it was bound to mean thatyou were going to be a success.
Companies that followed suitwith that.
Just shameless, disgusting,despicable even.
(02:17):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
I agree Absolutely despicable, so throw out.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
CorporateStrategybiz Okay gone.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Done Website deleted this is going to be a
corporate-based self-helptechnology podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Rolls right off the tongue.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Yeah, I think that's what I mean.
Everybody just Googles that.
They say, hey, chatgpt, pleasegive me a satirical-based
corporate technology podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Did you just Jepete?
Did you Jepete, jepete?
Is that the game?
Is that the new game that theK-pop stars are all playing?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Jepete, jepete, jeopardy, jeopardy Got it.
Maybe that's what it's been allalong.
Chat Jeopardy.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
What is the question?
Welcome back to CorporateStrategy.
The podcast.
That could have been an email.
I'm Bruce and I'm Clark.
Oh, sorry, I messed it up.
Welcome back to the corporatepodcast based on technology,
corporate work, life, cultureand how to get ahead in life and
(03:28):
all things.
The podcast that could havebeen an email.
I'm Bruce and now we're talking.
I'm Clark and after that 18minutes, clark has just ran away
.
Clark ran away and he's runningback.
They can't see you.
They cannot see you.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Well, there was somebody at the door and I had
to go check the door.
But I'm back.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I saw you open the door.
No one was there.
Literally no one was there.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
That's what you think .
I saw something there.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Vibe check.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (03:59):
I got my pinky up.
They can't see this.
Hey, put your pinky up.
How you doing?
I'm in despair.
Yeah, chaos, yeah, confusion,yeah, yep, that's how.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I feel, yeah, let's just say, even on the weekend,
Even on the yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Even on yeah this is weird because we're doing it on
the weekend.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, this episode goes out tomorrow, so yeah, oh
wow.
This is like fast and furiousWell how are we going to have
time to?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
edit.
We spend so much time editingthis to make it so perfect.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I'm going to pull an all-nighter.
I don't know if you're going tobe able to do it.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
I would offer to help , but I just can't even touch
your masterpiece you just makeit worse.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah, I just all-nighter, all nighter for old
Bruce.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Well, our boy doesn't sleep, Craig, so at least he'll
be there with you.
But yeah, yeah, yeah, all thosethings just because there's a
new mandate, a new mandate formy company and I don't know how
I feel about it.
It's a return to office mandate, gross.
Yeah, it's finally happening tome.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
It's happening.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
And I don't know, I don't know how to feel about it.
So, for context, I started atmy job pre-COVID and I was five
days in the office, so like thatthat was normal.
I worked here for a couple ofyears before that happened, so
I've been here for quite a while.
And then COVID happened.
Obviously everyone went remoteand then we came back to a
hybrid, a hybrid workforce wherewe were three days in the
(05:26):
office, two days at home.
So it was really nice becauseyou always got Mondays and
Fridays.
You always had that to lookforward to as, like Friday you
close out the week, you easeinto your weekend and then
Monday you kick it off right,because you got that time where
you can focus and get thingsdone and get all prepped for the
week without being harassed bypeople in the office.
And yeah, they said in 2026 tothe office, for it's four days a
(05:49):
week.
It's not full five, but stillfour days a week.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
That's just yeah, you're done.
You're shameful.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
It's tough, it's tough, so I'm dealing with that
currently.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
I have come to the conclusion.
I would not mind working at alocation again, but it has to be
less than 10 minutes from whereI live.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Oh, yeah, yeah, I got a decent commute.
I got a decent commute on me.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
You have more than a decent commute.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
I would never.
It's a bit of a haul.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
I wouldn't do that three days a week if I was you.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
That's just too much of your life that's being taken
away.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I agree that's being taken away.
I agree it's been.
So I do agree with you, though,like something about the office
.
I've said it before in thispodcast I do like being in with
my team.
I have a decent size team soit's just nice to be in person
and see everybody that I workwith.
And so, like I love the splitof three and two, like that's a
really good split.
But I think to your point, acommute on top of, you know,
(06:43):
losing two more hourspotentially having to commute
and get ready for work and allthat, like two more hours of my
life just down the drain tocommute every day and get ready
for the office, it's it's a lotto ask, it's a lot to ask If
public transportation was morereadily available and if, um,
you know, traffic wasn't just sostopping.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
You know, I feel like people drive worse than they
ever have.
I mean, like you know, this isactually true Texting and
driving is more dangerous thandrinking and driving.
Now, really, and you can textand drive all day, right, people
aren't drinking at seven in themorning, well, that's true.
Office workers, so you aretruly just at more risk.
He's ran off again.
He's ran off and now a cat hasentered and it was replaced
(07:25):
Clark.
We have a cat as our newco-host.
Anything you'd like to say Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
That was an impersonation.
That was not my cat, that washis cat.
I just want to make that veryclear.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
I don't know if you all speak cat.
But it said Clark doesn't feedme enough, please feed me, speak
cat.
But it said Clark doesn't feedme enough.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Please feed me, I'm hungry.
Please, please.
Honestly, this cat isridiculous.
It is driven by food.
It is insane.
This cat will do anything forfood.
It eats the dog's foods.
It doesn't care.
Cat's a monster.
Cat's a monster.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
She's just hungry.
Yes, I agree, the traffic isthe worst.
So I think that's and it'sgotten really bad for us lately.
I don't know why it's gottenworse and worse where we live,
and you know, our area has justgrown so much that traffic is
just nightmarish.
So I would only want to workwithin a I wouldn't, you know, I
wouldn't even go so far as tosay 10 minutes.
I want to be like.
(08:31):
I want to be close enough to mywork that I could come home
have lunch if I wanted to, yeah,and not be a disruption, right,
like I could come home takecare of my dog if I needed to.
That's how close I want theoffice to be to my house.
So that's the only way I'll goback to an office.
Fair enough, interesting.
Interesting that you wouldbring that up as your vibe check
.
This topic, today's topic,actually comes from my wife, who
(08:54):
has been on the pod beforeSarah.
She saw this post and thoughtit was really good for our pod
and then I read it and I waslike, yeah.
So the title is If careergrowth matters, 100% remote is a
trap.
I'll read the body here Remotework is fantastic for life
(09:17):
balance, but there's a harshtruth.
If your goal is career growth,fully remote can actually hold
you back.
The people who can truly moveyour career sponsors, mentors,
decision makers aren't part ofyour daily schedule or
interactions.
You don't bump into them onTeams calls and a virtual lobby
won't replicate hallwayconversations.
Real career-moving moments areunplanned a quick chat by the
coffee machine, overhearing aconversation that sparks an idea
(09:39):
, or being in the right place atthe right time.
If you're fully remote, thosemoments never happen.
You'll be productive, but youwill also be invisible to the
very people who could open doorsfor you.
Full disclosure.
If you work for a tiny company,this doesn't matter.
In small teams, everyoneinteracts with everyone anyway.
But in large organizations,physical presence still gives
(10:00):
you access to opportunities youcan't schedule or slack your way
into, and that's the topic fortoday.
Do you agree with thisassessment?
And if you, do.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
How do we?
Speaker 2 (10:13):
help.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Maybe we should clarify a few things.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
All right, clarify Major career growth, major
career growth.
I think that, firstly, whatdoes that qualify, as they don't
say right.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
I think I think that matters.
I think that matters a lotbecause at least in I work at a
big firm Now we worked at alarge firm before.
I made small promotional jumpswithout being in person.
Yeah, Like a manager, likesoftware engineer to senior
(10:56):
software engineer, manager toeven senior manager.
But then there's a rank of yourcareer you get to specifically
the executive rank that having aphysical presence is the only
way you're breaking that ceiling.
Even if you do amazing work andyou're never around.
No one ever sees you.
(11:16):
You're not going out and havingdinners or going on business
trips with people.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
You'll never break that ceiling let's remove the
executive rank from thisdiscussion, because one I don't
think the majority of ourlisteners are aiming for vp and
above right, like, let's, let'scap it off at director, because
I agree with you, I do think foranything above the director
(11:44):
level, if you're not at acompletely remote company, which
I am, um, you're not going tomove past that, like it, it does
require presence and we knowthat from our previous or at
least the job we worked attogether.
I'm sure you know that from thejob you work at now.
Like, yeah, that is true, like,like you have to be there.
It has to be a presence thing.
(12:05):
Upper executive managementpresence is required, unless
you're at a fully remote companyor, like the poster says, a
small company.
So let's go director below,basically, you still have
responsibility.
It's not management orleadership, is it still true?
Speaker 1 (12:26):
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
I don't either, because I know I do think this
is a perception.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
I agree.
I agree with you Because Ithink back to where we worked
before.
I was promoted.
My whole team was-.
Yeah, we worked at Big Corptogether.
I was promoted, but my wholeteam was gone.
Even my manager wasn't local.
So I was the only one at ouroffice from my team and I still
was promoted even though I neversaw them.
I never even met them when Iwas promoted.
(12:54):
I've just met them virtually.
We just worked togethervirtually.
And then I think to my company.
Now I've promoted two peoplethat were employed at the time
of COVID before we went to thehybrid back in office, because
they were remote, they livedelsewhere.
And they did end up movingbecause they do have career
aspirations that are way higher.
(13:14):
So that was kind of the realityof the fact of any future
growth that they want into theexecutive ranks are going to
have to start building apresence.
But I think they got promotedbecause they did great work and
that's what companies should belooking at, not the physical
presence.
They did great work and that'swhat companies should be looking
at, not the physical presence.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
What do you think?
So tell me your personal story,personal story time.
Can I agree with you?
I think we're on the mark there.
I got into marketing fullyremote and met the guy one time
at a conference.
We talked and he's like youshould join marketing and that's
how I got there.
But even thinking today.
So I do work for a smallercompany, so clearly take this
(13:53):
with a grain of salt, but I'vebeen at this company approaching
four years now.
I've been in my director roleand you know I applied for a VP
role.
Didn't get it, wasn'texperienced enough Like that's
fine, I truly wasn't.
And I don't think it would havebeen a good move for me anyway,
given other political thingsabout the job.
And I don't think it would havebeen a good move for me anyway,
given other political thingsabout the job.
But I said I need to move up,like I had that conversation.
(14:14):
So I was given a career growthpamphlet, path, whatever you
want to call it, but itbasically outlines what I need
to do over the next X number ofmonths to hit my next step.
I had that conversation with mymanager Basically, hey, this
didn't work out, but I need togrow.
I need to show growth.
What do I need to do to getthere?
And he provided me with anoutline and, unfortunately for
(14:37):
me, I'm doing like 90% of ittoday, so I'm in a good spot.
That conversation led to megetting the thing I needed to
clarify the rest of the stepsthat I need to take, which I'm
(14:58):
going to do.
It's as easy as that, and Ithink that the thing that people
aren't comfortable doing ishaving that initial conversation
right, basically saying likehey, I work hard, I feel that I
bring great value to the company.
What do I need to do to get thenext step?
And then, if there is not anext step, what do I need to do
to further my growth andadvancement here, whether it's
(15:19):
in your department, anotherdepartment, but you have to be
able to have that conversationwith either your manager, your
direct report manager or skiplevel right, because there is
the possibility that you're ashigh as you go under your
current management strain andyou need to have a skip level
conversation with that nextperson and say, hey, look, I'm
interested If I could like.
I think the problem that theposter for this comment has, and
(15:41):
a lot of people out there have.
There is a fear that if you askfor something in corporate
you'll get punished or they'llsay no, and that's possible.
No is always a possibility.
But if you do have value withthe company, if you are a good
corporate worker and a corporatecitizen, they're not just going
(16:03):
to say no because they want tokeep you.
So you expressing interest inthe next step one HR should have
a career path growth plan foryou, or a rough idea, or you go
build one.
But that first conversation isso important and if they do say
hey, you're not ready, you say,well, what do I need to get
there?
Like, is there a career plan ofpath or growth that I can start
(16:27):
working on, looking at?
Can we build out a year-longplan?
Can we build a six-month plan?
You take that action.
It's managing up and it'smanaging your growth and
expectations of growth.
But I don't think that mattersif you're in a remote role or in
a physical location, becauseit's really about you and your
ability to execute based on theexpectations of what comes next
(16:48):
100% agree.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
I think you get so many good tips there and
something going back to thebeginning of what you said that
I think is really important tocall out is you said they're
afraid to ask because they couldget told no.
The way I'd rephrase that isthe worst thing they could say
is no, they're not going to fireyou for asking for a promotion.
(17:10):
You're saying hey, I want todedicate more time to this
company and be more dedicated toit and be more influential to
it.
Like the worst thing they'regoing to say is sorry, no, and
like, if they do that, you kindof get your signs right there of
like, okay, I probably don'twant that anyways.
If they're just going to flatout tell me no and then not give
me any direction, this isprobably the wrong place to be.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Couldn't agree more, and I don't think that has
anything to do with remote ornot remote.
Right, that's a managementproblem, not a remote slash,
non-remote problem.
I think the issue really comesin with.
People don't have the kind ofcomfort with remote
conversations that they had inperson.
(17:52):
When you did a meeting in yourboss's office and you're sitting
in the comfy chair, you'relooking at them and they're at
their desk, there might've beenmore camaraderie there and
comfort than talking to a screen, which I can see that being a
barrier for comfort and buildingup that relationship with your
manager where you feel like Ican have this conversation and
even if they say no, I'm able toask why or ask for more details
(18:15):
and push forward.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, I agree, something I'd say is really
(18:38):
important.
Let me ask you this, ask me,let me lay this on you.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Lay it on me.
Let me lay this on you.
This is a very important point.
I don't even bring up thingsthat I need sometimes because I
read the web.
I'm like I really need my bossto review this document, but
it's not due for two weeks andthey seem like they're dealing
with a lot today.
I'm not going to add to that.
I might schedule hey, can I get15 minutes on Thursday, like
(19:04):
you know, just to follow up andthen okay, they're a little more
calm, even keeled now.
Now I'm going to go in for thereview, whatever, but I think
that's a that's a bigger pro tipthan just this is always read
the weather when talking tomanagement, especially about
something as important as yourcareer.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Right.
You got to know like, yeah,this is so key, it's.
No, I don't think the remoteversus physical has any bearing
on it, but bringing up things atthe right time is so critical
to understand.
When am I actually going to getthe things I need?
Do I have the right audience?
Is it the right time toactually ask this?
(19:44):
Like what you said, like I knowI've been working with my boss
for a long time and they'regreat, and I know they have bad
days, they're human.
Said like I know I've beenworking with my boss for a long
time and they're great and Iknow they have bad days.
They're human.
Yeah, just like everybody else.
Everyone does.
Yeah, everyone has bad days.
And if you're getting into theconversation, you know I always
tell my team.
I'm like, when you're doingskip level meetings with my boss
, your boss's boss start withsome softballs, just so you can
(20:06):
gauge the temperature of theconversation.
And I always have alternateplans.
I don't even do thisintentionally.
I just know the things that Iwant to bring up depending on
the context.
I'm like, if things are burninghot, I'm going to stay away
from these topics.
I'm just not going to bringthem up this time.
I'll wait till the next time wetalk.
But if things are light andbreezy and we're laughing and
joking, I'm like here's the timewhen I can bring up the things
(20:28):
that I want.
This is when it's going to bemost influential and they're
going to want to have aconversation.
But they'll be more open to itbecause it's the right time to
ask about, you know, newstaffing, when they're like
don't you have enough resourcesIf I need money, if I need, you
know, travel approved, like allthose things they can be real
sticklers on because ofbudgetary reasons.
But if the day is right, it's areally easy conversation.
(20:49):
If the day is wrong, it's goingto be a bad look and they're
going to look at me and be likeare you serious?
You're asking that, and that'sgoing to paint in their mind for
the rest of the day.
It's like I was burning hot.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
They asked these stupid things which made my day
even run, even hotter, and nowlike I doesn't matter whether
you're remote or whether you'rea person, but build some rapport
so you can read the room alittle bit, because there's a
time and place you should askfor things.
There absolutely is, and Iwould take this one step further
and say it's not even theweather of the day.
(21:19):
If you're finishing up a bigproject, if you just got it over
the finish line majormilestones, celebration,
achievement time that's a greattime to check in with your boss
and say, hey, I just finishedthis, we just launched this
whole thing.
It was a great success.
You know, I'm so, I'm so happywe're through it.
(21:39):
But, you know, thought we wouldhave a conversation about what
comes next.
Right, Like it's such an easyend once you've done that,
because you're coming off yourown coattails.
You did this big thing.
Now it's time to have aconversation.
Hey, we just shipped.
We just shipped a product, wejust finished a huge sprint.
You know, I just laid off 20%of the staff because I'm in HR.
Like, whatever you did, that'sgood and celebratory.
That's when you go in for the.
(22:01):
What are the steps?
Let's have a conversation aboutthat.
And I think something elsethat's really worth pinning is
promotions and growth.
Don't just happen becauseyou're there.
It's a trap a lot of peoplefall into.
I think bad organizations dothis.
Where you came in as anassociate, you did your job.
You got promoted to regular.
(22:21):
You got promoted to senior.
You were there five years.
You get promoted to seniorprincipal, whatever Time does
not equal growth at a company.
You could technically getpromoted every year if you look
at the path and plan and you'reexecuting at that next level and
that's the thing you have to beable to prove you can do the
(22:44):
job that you're looking for, notthe job you're in today.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, 100%.
No, I think those are all greattips.
If you read the room, if you'rehaving the conversation at the
right time, I think those thingsare a combination for success.
Yeah, because to your point,you can go in and be, like man,
so proud of the team.
We pulled an all-nighter lastnight.
We got our fourth release done.
In the first quarter we onlycommitted to doing three.
That's so huge.
(23:07):
And then you can kind of easeinto, you're like, okay, yeah, I
feel like you know I'm steppingtowards that next level, that
senior level, whatever it is,and I'm already hitting my goals
, as you can see.
Like, what else do you need tosee so that I can get to that
next level?
That's the perfect time.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I love that it really is.
And I think the other thing isyou can't expect it to happen
overnight, right, like it'snever going to happen overnight.
You have to be willing to workwith the system.
Hr is almost always involved inthe process and you need to
have the expectation that you'regoing to do more, because the
whole reason you're gettingpromoted is because you're
taking on more responsibilitythan what you had before.
(23:43):
It might be differentresponsibility, but it's
responsibility all the same.
You don't just get promoted forexisting yeah, a hundred
percent.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
You can't just sit there and be like well, I've
been here for 10 years, like Ishould be at that level, like
that doesn't matter, like thatgets you more doesn't matter
Exactly.
But if you're not having theright conversations with your
manager, with people around youat the right time, so that that
won't mean anything, cause, toyour point, you're just going to
get the standard bonus everyyear if the company does well,
maybe a little bit more, whichisn't a bad thing.
Some people ride out of thecompany for like 20 years
(24:10):
because every single year theyhave a great incentive program
and they can basically just ridethat wave for a long time and
be perfectly happy.
People should do that.
That's not a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
I think that's worth discussing too, because
oftentimes promotion issandwiched with pay raise, right
, right and like the expectationis well, if I get a promotion,
I get a big bump.
Maybe, maybe, yes, you mightget.
It depends, uh.
And I think the other thingthat goes adjacent with this is
(24:41):
you will reach a level whereyour next step is no longer
doing the job you do today, plusplus plus.
It is now management, and youreally have to think long and
hard about do I want to stopdoing the work I'm good at, to
start doing the work of managingpeople who are good at the job
I used to do?
And I made this mistake bysaying, yes, I do, and I regret
(25:05):
it every day of my life.
So really think long and hardabout that before you jump in
and find yourself managingpeople, which you didn't really
actually want to do, but youdidn't know at the time, you
didn't want to do it.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
It's funny because I'm on the opposite side of that
trajectory.
It was hard because you go andI'm actually having this
conversation with someone on myteam about this right now and
it's so hard because you gothrough your career and what
gets you promoted is doingreally, really well at executing
.
Whatever it is you do best,whether it's programming,
marketing, whatever and then youget to a point, to your exact
(25:46):
point.
There it's once you get intomanagement, you're no longer
doing those things.
No, now you're not judged onthose things.
It doesn't matter if you pulledan all-nighter and you got one
thing done.
It matters.
What is your team doing?
Like, is your team executing?
Are you doing more than you cando individually?
That's the way I look at it issaying you hit a point when you
(26:08):
have to ask yourself am I okayjust doing all that I'm doing
now?
Or with a team, could I havelarger influence?
You know, do even better work.
And that was kind of the pivotpoint for me is saying I love
being an executor, but I canonly do so much on one person.
You know, if I had a team and Icould build this team and kind
of grow them the way that I havegrown throughout my career.
(26:29):
I think we can, you know, do100x what we're doing now,
depending on the size of theteam, and so that's the fun part
.
But it is challenging to getyour head out of that mode of
saying I can pull an all-nighterand get this done, because then
when you have a team, it's likeI can't, that's four people's
jobs right there, I can't dothat by myself.
And then you get fulfillmentfrom your team doing well and
your team growing, which is likea totally different side of the
(26:51):
coin that you're not preparedfor.
Once you go into management,you're like wait, the things
that I did yesterday don'tmatter in my role today.
And the answer is yes, that'strue.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Unless you're at a startup, in which case you have
to do the job you used to do,plus management.
You do both, which let me tellyou what a treat, what a
pleasure and a privilege it is.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
I have an interesting angle on this too.
At some companies there is nodefined career path.
But if you love the company andI did this at my current
company I was a high achiever.
I got onto the right projects,which got me a lot of visibility
and I've grown quite a bit.
I've been like a quick riser inmy company now.
But what I wanted to do is, onceI went into management to your
(27:37):
point is, I told myself, I'mgoing to influence change, to
make this easier for my team tounderstand how they can grow and
not just make it like, oh yeah,bruce has been doing all this
stuff.
He feels ready and like nothingquantifiable.
I write up a few like points ofprojects he was on and like
that's it.
I'm like I want to tell my teamdefinitively you are meeting
(27:58):
the expectations of your currentlevel and actually you're
meeting the expectations of thenext level too.
So we have to promote you.
Like there's no way we can justsit here and be like, eh, it
doesn't feel right.
Like there's no way we can justsit here and be like, eh, it
doesn't feel right, maybe not.
It's like you are doing thethings, and so for the last year
and a half, maybe even longer,with my team I've been building
kind of a framework for how toshow that someone's going above
and beyond their current role,so that when we get into these
(28:20):
conversations we have a standardto work off of and we can
basically say, well, thisperson's meeting this criteria
at the meets expectations.
This person's needs development.
This person is actually goingabove and beyond.
So that way it's no longer likethis gray, does it feel right?
Conversation it's more of blackand white.
Are they doing the things theyshould be doing or not?
And are they doing the thingsthat they should be doing at the
(28:41):
next level?
If the answer is mostly yes,it's likely time for a promotion
.
Yeah, yeah, I, it's likely timefor a promotion.
Yeah, yeah, I've had thefortunate.
I would say I'm kind offortunate in a way that the
group I work in has grown fromlike five people to like 70, 80
people now.
So like I've gotten the benefitof being able to do this as
(29:03):
I've grown.
And define this for peoplecoming up like, as you're
evolving, a part of anorganization, I would say, if
you're already in an establishedorganization and you're just
like, yeah, you know, just whenit feels right and you have a
thousand people in yourorganization.
That's not a good sign, becausebeing able to influence that
change is going to be really,really hard and there might just
be stuck in the ways that theydo things and in this case, all
(29:31):
the way back to the originalprompt.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
You may have to make a physical presence to make any
movement with that type ofsituation.
Yeah, and I think that's thetrick is I do believe that you
can find companies that fallinto both sides of the answer
and if it's a completelyphysical company, you need to be
on site anyway.
You are belaboring this at thebeginning of the pod.
You're getting asked to go inmore.
(29:53):
You're not going to deal withthis problem for very much
longer.
Your remote presence it willcompletely vanish in the next
few years.
Other companies that are goingfull remote they have the
opposite problem, where there'sstill some people still in
offices as they transition out,or hybrid companies.
That's going to be really hard.
(30:13):
That's why it's so important toget those quantifiable career
path development plans and ifyour boss doesn't have it, you
need to have a conversation withthem and say, hey, how do we
build this?
Do we need to work with HR?
Do we need to look at othercompanies out there?
But I want to make sure that Iknow what I need to be doing,
that I'm not doing today to getto my next step, because that
(30:33):
shows that you're invested inyou and what you need to do for
that next step.
There's really no arguing withit, right, Like they can't say
no to that because for them it'spure career development and
guidance.
If you're not doing some reportthey want you to start doing.
They can tell you and you canstart doing it.
Then you can have thatconversation.
Hey, I'm doing this report now,so I'm doing my job plus the
(30:55):
report.
What's next?
Like, keep building, keepadding on and you'll get there,
Unless your boss sucks and he'sjust, you know, giving you more
work because they don't want todo it themselves.
But outside of that, outside ofthat weird off chance
happenstance, you have to beable to push for your own growth
, and that's really somethingI've learned at startup.
(31:17):
Right Is no one's going todefine that for you.
You have to help define it foryourself.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's that's, I think, the
best thing you can do.
I think maybe, as a follow-up,we should do the next episode on
this part, which is how do youmanage up?
So that way you can be giventhe opportunity to do the thing
that you need to do to get tothe next level.
Because there is a point Ithink it's even worse at a
(31:43):
remote company where you don'tknow the conversations that are
happening outside of your realm,but because you're not getting
the right FaceTime, becauseyou're not in the right rooms,
because you're not doing theright presentations, you're not
getting that visibility to getyou to that next level.
And so I think maybe in thenext episode we kind of break
that down of, like, how do youbreak through that ceiling of
being like Bruce as my boss?
(32:03):
I know I build thesepresentations for you every
month.
Do you think I could have ashot at presenting them, like
all the work our team's doingand like different tactics, like
that to try to get to the nextlevel?
Speaker 2 (32:20):
This will be perfect for the next episode because
actually on my plan, I need tohave a conversation with my
manager about this.
There is a thing that I waslike I used to have insight into
this I no longer do.
How do I go about achievingthis now, Like, and I will have
that conversation with my bossand I can report back during the
next episode about what Ilearned and how I can help you
all do the same.
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's the hard real time.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Yeah, you actually no-transcript because you're
(33:03):
succeeding right, like you'regiving something up for them,
which is one less thing that youhave to do.
That's a great problem to have,and the counter to this is, as
a manager, I'm starting to haveconversations with individuals
on my team for their next steps,as I'm planning my next steps,
because I don't want to do allof this stuff in my next role.
I want them to do more, so itdoes go both directions.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
As a manager, I can tell you there's no better
feeling than presenting in ameeting forever and then someone
on your team being ready andyou being able to step back and
just sit watch, smile as they'rejust crushing it.
It's like that was incredible.
Less work for me and they'reabsolutely crushing it.
It's like that was incredible.
Less work for me and they'reabsolutely crushing it, which
would be great for their career.
Everyone's looking at this andsaying, yeah, clark's actually
doing really well, because bruceis doing well.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Let's do it well, we'll save it for the next
episode.
Then managing up.
Stay tuned up.
Before we leave.
There is something that youhave been teasing for months now
.
Oh my gosh, I feel terribleit's been years.
It's been years and we're hungryfor a burger and we want to
know.
In our corporate strategypodcast show notes you can click
(34:13):
the link all the things you canjoin our Discord.
In our Discord we play a coupleof games.
One is called what Do you Mean,where you make a meme of the
previous episode.
One is called what Do you Mean,where you make a meme of the
previous episode.
One is called Is it me or is itcorporate, where you can
forward slash, confess and putyour corporate sin in there and
we'll tell you if it's you or ifit's corporate.
It's completely anonymized.
But the third, our newest gamewe play Is it AI?
Clark posted a picture Eightmonths ago.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
It was not even three weeks ago, but okay.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Eight months ago he posted a picture of the Discord.
It's absolutely been chewing usall up inside.
He even made us vote on it.
It's two pictures of ahamburger.
Both pictures look good, butone looks better.
I said number two is not AIClark.
Would you please do us thehonor of telling us which of
(35:02):
these is real?
Speaker 1 (35:03):
We have the left and the right, the one or the two,
and in the game you have to voteon which one is the AI.
Oh no, don't tell me, Don'ttell me, you got this flipped,
alright, okay, revote, revote,live.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Which one is AI?
The one on the left?
The one on the left is AI.
Number one.
I changed my vote.
A real-time vote.
I misread.
The real burger is the burgeron the right-hand side, number
two.
Number two.
I'm sticking with it.
Okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
You just broke the news.
That is 100% true.
I was shocked because therewere a few people who said it,
including you, which said theright-hand side was the AI
generator.
I was like, wow, is it thatindistinguishable?
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I am dyslexic and I misread everything, so I believe
the number two image to be thereal image.
I stand by that.
I stand by that with all of mybeing.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
And you're right.
Number two is the real image.
The left-hand side is theAI-generated one, but this
proves my point.
How do you know?
Tell me what are the signs.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
It's the bread, especially if you look at bread
number one, the rim around thebottom of the top piece of bread
and the bottom of the bottompiece of bread.
It's it's too flat.
There's no imperfections andbread has lots of little
imperfections because you knowit's chemistry happening there.
The middle, all of the breadthat's not the edges looks right
(36:38):
but the edges look wrong.
I think it's really hard tocreate something organic like
that with AI.
It's great at you know bigpicture, but it lost me on the
bread.
The bread is what gave it away.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Yeah, I also think the, the, the cheese is a
telling sign, like to your pointaround, like chemistry, like
when cheese melts, it's neverperfect because unless you have
like a perfectly heated piece ofcheese with like a gun like you
see on the, like a heat gun,you know, on the right-hand side
you can just see it's oozingout places like towards the edge
, the corners are kind of likeperfect, because it's not
(37:12):
getting equally distributed heat, but like in the middle the
heat is just right on it Likethere's nothing hanging.
So it kind of like doesn't keepthe perfection if you will now
you know.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
What's funny is I actually thought the cheese was
pretty good because I justassumed it was crappy cheese
like it's that crappy fakeprocessed cheese, whiz cheese,
and that is why it looks soyellow and goop.
Yeah, because it's just fake.
I will also say the funny thingis the tomatoes, yeah, uh, or
are they onion like?
And that's the thing is likeit's almost onion purple on the
(37:44):
left, but look at the lip, butit's really supposed to be
tomato.
Yeah, look at the lip.
And if you're not, if you'renot in the Discord, this is your
perfect time to actually lookat the image with us.
The lip on the left tomato thebottom of it matches identically
with the one on the right.
So it was clearly trained onthis image to recreate the
tomato look, but it just thecolor's a little off, like it's
(38:06):
like am.
I a tomato or am I an onion?
Speaker 1 (38:09):
I don't know which one?
I 100% agree.
That definitely looks like whatit is.
Yeah, but it's still like asyou look at these, which is the
crazy part lighting shadowsreflections.
It's a great image it is such agood image and like, even like
the burger, like the way thecamera like fades it out and
everything like, as you lookbetween them, you're like holy
(38:30):
cow, it's really hard to telland so we had a lot of people
get this wrong and I I totallyget why.
This is why we're continuingthis channel, this, uh, this
kind of challenge, because Ithink it's only going to get
harder to distinguish.
We need to train ourselves.
Yeah, if they get burgers right, how long is it going to be
before they get humans?
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Yeah, no, it's true, and I mean the.
The sad truth of it is, this isa challenge, right?
We have two images side by side, so we have the ability of like
, really looking at it andguessing.
But if you just posted thepicture of that burger and
didn't include the comparison,how many people would actually
say that I think that's AI?
Like I don't even know if Iwould.
(39:10):
I don't know if that picture byitself just posted on a random
channel on the Discord Just atethis today, I'd be like man,
he's a good food photographer,but I wouldn't think that's AI.
I just think, oh, it's a goodlooking burger.
Yeah, absolutely.
Because I'm not looking for itright, Like I'm not looking for
it and it's good enough that itcould fool me.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah, 100% agree.
Now we still do have one outthere which wasn't really asked
if this is AI or not.
It's the crab, the very firstpost in this channel, the crab.
That crab is real.
We never got an answer, but Iam convinced too that there's no
way this crab is not real.
I'm zooming in on it right nowit's got to be real.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
That's a real crab.
It's got to be real.
Crabs are aliens and AI can'tdo alien.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Yeah, that's why we need Aiki to answer this.
We need Ake to answer this, ike.
We need Ike to get in theDiscord and tell us was this AI
or not, because, yeah, I agreewith you, I think it's just an
awesome crab that they found.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Who doesn't love an awesome?
Speaker 1 (40:10):
crab, I agree.
Well, hey, that's the first ofthe challenge.
I got to do another one.
Maybe one a month.
Yeah, maybe one a month.
Yeah, maybe one a month.
Let's do it Like we'll do onefor October or something, and if
other people want to post inhere, they are more than welcome
to.
But I think this is going to bereally interesting.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Yeah, I'm ready.
This is good.
I like this.
This is a fun one.
Again, if you're not in theDiscord, you're not just
missingically in real time.
We have whole channels aboutmarketing yourself, about local
events, mentorship, newseverything is in there.
(40:46):
You should be in there, youshould join the conversation
with us.
It is our corporate fam discordand you can join it for free.
Just click the link and do it.
The other thing you can do ifyou want to support the show is
share this with your friends,family, neighbors, or if you
don't like sharing, you can makea donation through the buy us a
coffee link, Also in that samelittle doobly-doo.
Anything else, Clark?
(41:07):
No.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
I love a doobly-doo.
Yeah, share, buy a baby onesie,do it all.
We have a swag store.
Yep, what do you mean?
What do you mean?
Chips, everything, everythingyou could ever want is there.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Get in there, get in there, and next week, like Clark
Tease, we will follow up with aManaging Up episode.
So if you have any questionsabout Managing Up, post them in
the Discord and the CorporateStrategy channel specifically
and we will tackle them head on.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Oh yeah, apply directly to the forehead Could
add a VA, apply directly to theforehead.
Could have had a VA, rememberthat.
Could have Not sponsored.
Oh yeah, not sponsored, but youcould have had a VA.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Yeah Tang, it's a kick in the glass.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
VA doesn't exist anymore, right.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
V8 Splash.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
I haven't seen it.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
I love when you come back from a good old old company
who's great at marketing andyou're just like are they still
alive?
Is that a thing?
V8 splash.
All right, hold on, maybevegetable juice.
V8 splash juice drinks.
No, it says, you can have aTarget.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
I was going to say I think I had tomato juice on my
flight back from Colorado and Ibelieve it was a V8.
Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Could have had a V8.
They need to bring thatmarketing slogan back.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
That was great.
I mean Tang.
Bring back Tang.
You know it's a kid in a glassNow in the pouch.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Mmm.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Mmm, mmm, it's what plants crave.
Hey, appreciate you, clark.
Hey, you too, thanks as always.
Thanks as always for bringingthe heat and hopefully your
situation, with your commute andyour office, resolve themselves
peacefully and kindly.
It's the best we can hope forhere's hoping here's hoping.
(42:57):
But until then, thank you asalways to our listeners for
tuning in.
Do share the pod.
It's the only way we grow, weappreciate.
Until then, thank you as alwaysto our listeners for tuning in.
Do share the pod.
It's the only way we grow.
We appreciate you, we thank youand until next time I'm Bruce
and I'm Clark and you're on mute.
We'll see you next week.
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