October 27, 2025 • 26 mins
We call out why meetings feel endless and show practical ways to make them shorter, clearer and tied to outcomes. Startup chaos meets enterprise structure as we share tactics for agendas, cadence, and guarding your calendar without burning bridges.
• naming the meeting problem and calendar overload
• one‑on‑ones versus team syncs and scaling with layers
• startup reactivity versus enterprise planning horizons
• shifting from task lists to outcome‑based management
• demanding agendas and clear objectives for invites
• using 15‑ and 25‑minute blocks and off‑hour starts
• on‑demand time with pre‑reads and owner accountability
• blocking focus time and quarterly pruning of recurrings
• recognizing structural interdependencies that fuel meeting load
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:02):
Oh hey, what's going on?
Oh hey, I was uh mid-thought,but uh yeah, just go ahead and
throw Craig in.
Why not?
Let's start recording.
SPEAKER_02 (00:09):
I I've been doing a lot of preparation for this
episode, which I know you havejust a short amount of time to
talk about.
Uh I've I've been thinking aboutthis topic forever, really.
This is not a just a last minuteclimb on the wall grab bag of a
thing for us to discuss.
But given our given our shortstint of time, I do see a kitty
(00:30):
cat on your desk.
SPEAKER_03 (00:31):
I'm on a standing desk too.
I don't know if she's about todo a suicide bomb on a oh oh
there it is.
Suicide bomb.
Solid.
She's gone.
SPEAKER_02 (00:40):
That cat just did a dive bomb to the floor.
Sorry to distract you.
SPEAKER_01 (00:45):
You know what else?
You know what else did a divebomb to the floor?
What?
What should we do then?
Corporate strategy, podcast thatcould have been an email.
I'm bruised.
SPEAKER_02 (00:56):
And today we're talking about meetings.
This meeting could have been anemail.
The podcast that could have beena meeting that could have been
an email.
We haven't talked about meetingsin a long time.
And uh I thought for m formonths now I've said, hey, we
need to do an episode where werevisit the topic of meetings.
How do you run them?
How do you make them good?
(01:16):
How do you actually get valueout of them?
Meetings suck, man.
I don't know about you, but likein the world of I think in the
world of remote work, one of theone of the few things that
became worse was the meeting.
Because I feel like you can justcall them whenever you want.
Uh you're you're kind of heldhostage by them, especially if
(01:36):
you're in like a cameras onenvironment.
Um it's just it's just theworst.
I hate meetings.
How about you?
SPEAKER_03 (01:44):
They're they're the freaking worst, dude.
Like the the absolute worst.
I've been thinking about howlately I've just been trapped in
these ongoing meetings.
Like, oh yeah, we'll scale we'llschedule a series around it.
Like, yeah, we'll schedule aseries.
And then you know it's sevenyears later and you still have
that series on your calendar.
Like, what am I doing still inthis?
(02:06):
Yeah, yeah, it's it is actuallythe worst.
SPEAKER_02 (02:10):
And I I don't I don't know.
I am at the point I'm at thepoint of uh no return.
I if I if I could drop 75% ofthe meetings on my calendar, I
would be a s just a differentperson.
I'd be a happy, changed,wonderful person.
So what can we do?
(02:31):
Clark, what can we do ascitizens of Corp to make the
meetings suck less?
Let me ask you this.
unknown (02:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (02:38):
Hypothetical.
Hypothetical.
Follow me.
Type me.
What if you just said no and youdidn't go to any of the
meetings?
Can't do it.
Can't do it.
Why can't you do it?
Let's dig into that.
I'm part of the problem.
I'm running half of themeetings.
I'm running.
Oh, half?
Okay, wait, wait, hold on, holdon.
What percentage of meetings doyou actually schedule?
(02:59):
Half?
Let me take a look.
I have my calendar right here.
SPEAKER_02 (03:05):
We're gonna do an analysis.
One, two, three, four, five,six, seven, seven, eight, nine.
SPEAKER_00 (03:15):
Ten.
Eleven twelve.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
I'm running twelve of fourteen meetings.
You are the problem.
You are the this is you.
You're the problem.
SPEAKER_03 (03:28):
But I have to run them.
Otherwise, no one else will.
I'm looking through my calendarright now.
I don't know which is worse,actually.
I have one, two, three, four.
SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
Four meetings that I've scheduled this week.
SPEAKER_03 (03:47):
And the rest is from everyone else.
SPEAKER_02 (03:49):
I should mention this week's a three-day for me.
So that's even worse.
In three days.
SPEAKER_01 (03:56):
That is so much worse.
SPEAKER_03 (03:58):
Yeah.
Oh my gosh, that's those poorpeople around you.
Okay, well, we can dig intothis.
SPEAKER_02 (04:06):
Poor me, man.
I'm the one doing the work.
I'm the one who's like keepingthe wings on the plane.
SPEAKER_03 (04:13):
Okay, this is this is important.
Let's get into why.
I want to hear your perspective.
Why do you need to schedulethose meetings rather than
sending an email, doing a sprintplan, whatever?
And I will also explain why,because I think there's two
separate problems.
You're scheduling meetings for areason, and you have to schedule
(04:34):
a lot of them.
I have to attend a lot ofmeetings, and I don't really
have a choice either.
So my calendar is, and I thinkjust for the folks out there, we
both have just jam packcalendars.
I mean, some days for me are30-minute back-to-back for like
10 hours straight.
Like that happens.
unknown (04:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:53):
You've got to let 30 where I wasn't busy.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (04:56):
Exactly.
And it is so draining from amental capacity standpoint to
say, all right, 30 minutes thistopic, 30 minutes this topic, 30
minutes chatting with thisperson about a range of topics,
30 minutes to this.
And like your brain at the endof those days, you're like, I
don't know what's up, I don'tknow what's down, I don't know
what's all around, but my brainain't here anymore.
And that's how you feel at theend of these days.
(05:17):
It's crazy.
It's crazy to live like this.
And I don't think we're the onlyones.
I think everyone else is beingon the stage.
SPEAKER_02 (05:24):
So, so to your question, uh, I would say about
50% of the meetings this weekare one-on-ones.
So, conversations between eitherme and my team or me and other
folks that need either mymentorship or my direct work on
things to help them do theirjobs.
So 50% is just me being a goodhuman being that cares about
(05:47):
other human beings.
Still exhausting.
It's very exhausting.
There's a lot to keep track of.
The other 50% of the meetingsare either team thinks where
everyone's kind of like sharingwhat they're doing, if they need
help, what they need, you kindof stand up.
Or it is discussions about aproject.
(06:08):
Because and and you know, I Ijest, we all jest this meeting
could have been an email, but Ithink the the real problem is
there's just the the questionthat that rings true for me
every day is do I want to typeout an eight-page email that no
one's gonna read, or do I wantto hold these people hostage and
have a conversation?
(06:30):
So which is it, right?
Because it's gonna need to getdone, and I'm not gonna do it.
So someone's gotta do it, and Ihave to orate to them what the
thing is so they can do it, orwork with someone to do it.
Ergo vis-a-vis concordedly, Igot a lot of meetings on my
calendar.
SPEAKER_03 (06:48):
Yeah.
It's really yeah, it's adifficult predicament.
And like I I think when yourteam gets to a certain size, you
have to start building structureto the team.
Like, this is something I mean,my team's 16 people now.
Like, there's no way I couldhave weekly one-on-ones with the
(07:09):
team, and also I need to developsome sort of like growth pattern
for them.
It's like there's a senior, moresenior level of my team, and
there's three of them thatmanage everyone else.
And so the only people I meetwith weekly are those three core
more senior management people onmy team.
And those are the people thatlike I always am talking with.
They're my top three becausethere's no way I could do 15.
(07:31):
And then they help you knowdirect the team beyond.
But I do sync up with everybodyon my team.
Like I have monthly with a few,but quarterly with some of just
like, hey, we're like threelevels removed.
I'm never quarterly with youbecause I still want to connect
with you.
I want us to have arelationship, but we don't need
to be syncing because we wouldjust not have anything to talk
(07:52):
about.
So I don't know if that is onethought.
I don't your your team's grownquite a bit too, but not a it's
not a possibility.
SPEAKER_00 (07:59):
Absolutely out of the question.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:01):
I meet with non-team members every week.
Uh it's it's out of the questionbecause I am such a crucial
piece of the marketingdepartment that they need to
talk with me.
I need to talk with them.
There is like work will not getdone if we don't meet and speak,
which is you know, just it iswhat it is.
SPEAKER_03 (08:23):
Startup loves.
Let me ask you this, because Ido this to people who are not my
direct team.
I still care about them aspeople, but I don't necessarily
see a lot of value in us meetingon work-related topics.
And so they schedule a meetingwith me and I say, make it 15
minutes.
Let's do 15.
We'll do 15, we'll catch upbecause we have nothing super
critical to talk about, but Iknow we just need to maintain a
(08:45):
relationship.
Is it rude or is it okay?
SPEAKER_02 (08:48):
I think it's rude.
Yeah.
I mentor a lot of these people.
Like some of these people Imentor.
So like it's not just a I'mhelping them with their work,
it's like there's a mentorshipangle there too.
Yeah, it's tough, man.
Like, I look at my calendar andI don't see anything that I
could actively cancel.
Now, there are things that Iwish folks would be able to take
(09:11):
on and do on their own, but thatcomes with more mentorship,
right?
So it's yeah, you know, it's acatch 22, which requires more
meetings.
So it's tough.
SPEAKER_03 (09:23):
Tough it is, it's hard.
Yeah.
A couple of tricks that I use isyeah, if you've got a team, you
need to extract it a bit andcreate a management layer in
which your team gets probablypast 10, because you just can't
have even 10, 30-minuteone-on-ones a week is that's
five hours.
That's a lot of time.
It is a lot of time, but you dohave to have you know some sort
of ongoing cadence with yourpartners because at a big
(09:45):
corporation, even a startup, ifyou're not constantly holding
that relationship, meeting withyour level partners, and also
your more senior leaders too, oflike your management chain, all
those things add up, and it'smany, many hours a week.
And to your point, it is reallyhard to skip those.
But if you can shorten it to 15minutes, I do it.
(10:07):
Some people probably think it'srude.
But I'm like, hey, we don't haveany work relation ties.
I know we want to meet and talkabout things, but I'm sorry,
I've got 15 minutes for you.
SPEAKER_01 (10:18):
Dude, that's like hard.
SPEAKER_03 (10:20):
I know it's so mean, but it's like it's the reality,
right?
It's like I've got all theseprojects, I can't squeeze
another 30-minute meeting, evenif I wanted to, I couldn't do
it.
My brain will be more dead.
So it's rude, but you can atleast say, hey, I'm still making
time for you.
I just can't give you a full 30this week.
So if you want to catch up, I'llgive you 15.
(10:40):
I can't do it.
I can't do that.
I know it's it's a time.
SPEAKER_01 (10:43):
Give me another tip.
Give me another tip.
SPEAKER_03 (10:45):
Yeah.
I I almost want to look at like,I've got the reverse problem.
I put it on rather than mescheduling, I put the
responsibility on other peopleif they need me for something.
Yeah.
And like that's hard too, right?
Because it's like, hey, I am notgoing to schedule a standing
meeting because I am not the onewho is bringing things to you
(11:08):
for guidance or for help.
And I'm not going to hold youaccountable to those.
Well, I am going to hold themaccountable to these things.
But I'm like, you schedule timefor me or with me on my calendar
and you bring the agenda.
Like, this is your time.
You tell me what you need helpwith.
Come to me with an agenda.
Please send it ahead of time.
Then I can review it and beprepared to help you as
efficiently as we can.
So like I put all the effort onothers if they need me as a
(11:32):
critical piece to something.
Now, the meetings I do have toschedule, I think, are very
similar to the ones you have to.
It's like there's somethingcritical that only I can do, and
I've got to guide a group ofpeople to go get the thing done.
And so, like, those are my fourlengthy-ish 90 to 120 minute
meetings that I scheduled thisweek is like focus topics so I
(11:52):
can drive a product or a projector whatever it is forward.
SPEAKER_02 (11:58):
If I told someone to bring an agenda to the meeting,
they would look at me like I hadjust landed from a different
planet.
They'd be like, Bruz?
I I don't know how to do that.
What that's a problem.
(12:18):
There's gotta be an agenda inmeetings.
No.
Well, I mean, there's a looseagenda, but like expecting them
to run the meeting, you're outof your mind.
You're out of your mind.
SPEAKER_03 (12:30):
I don't know if it's just an enterprise versus
startup thing, but I do expectan agenda.
Like, there's so much that if Iget a random meeting that just
has a subject line, I'mdeclining and responding back.
Please send an agenda so Iunderstand the objective of this
meeting.
What fortunate, lucky planet doyou live on?
I would get an enterprise, anenterprise very large company
(12:52):
where we have teams of teams ofteams.
Blend in and hide in the masses.
You definitely can.
Yeah, but I don't know any ofthat.
For me, it's it's the it's thecore part of kicking off a
meeting.
It's like, what is the objectiveof the meeting?
And then what's the agenda?
What are we trying to get on theother side of this?
And if I I don't attend meetingsunless I understand that.
(13:13):
Because what's the point?
Like I have to understand whyI'm there, why you need me, and
if it needs to be a priority, ifit doesn't, I'm not coming.
SPEAKER_02 (13:21):
So, you know, it's funny.
Um, if I had to quantify lookingat my calendar, every meeting
that I go to, they're allimportant.
None I can't skip any of them.
We don't have meetings to meet.
Uh, if we did, that would be aconversation to be had.
But that we just don't have thatluxury, right?
Like everything is a priority,everything's important.
(13:43):
Everything requires someone'sdomain expertise, probably me.
And that's why I'm there.
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (13:52):
Yeah.
Yeah, it is tough.
It is really hard in a startupbecause you're kind of flying
by, like, every day can bedifferent.
In my case, something couldhappen tomorrow in the market or
your company where you're like,we've got to react, we gotta
move.
I think in a larger corporation,we have the benefit of long-term
planning.
And so, like, right now, we'replanning out the next three
(14:14):
years of stuff, right?
So, like, we know what thepriorities are, we generally
know what we're working on.
Now, how exactly the details,the tactical planning of that
could be totally different as wekind of get into the actual work
itself, but generally we knowthe priority of things.
So, I can easily look at mycalendar and be like, hey, this
thing's not a priority for me,and we put it three years from
(14:36):
now.
So, I'm not talking about itthis year.
And people don't love thatanswer, but it's the truth.
It's like, I don't know what totell you.
It's not a priority fororganization at the moment, and
I know you care about it, butsorry, got to focus on the
priorities.
How do they respond when you saythat?
Usually, I mean, some peopledon't love it, obviously.
They're like, What do you meanit's not a priority?
(14:57):
I'm like, listen, we got thesepriorities, it's time, scope,
resources.
Like, if we don't get thesethings done, we can't support.
I've mentioned this in previouspodcasts, but for everyone who's
new here, my job is not thesoftware business or the
hardware business.
We support a larger kind ofentertainment and hospitality
brand.
So for us, it's like, hey, yeah,that let's say, yeah,
(15:20):
hospitamment, some people mightsay.
But it could be like a hotel, itcould be, you know, a new film
or something like that.
And I'm just throwing arbitraryexamples of the generic industry
that I'm in.
But it could be like, hey, thatthing's coming out, it's got a
deadline.
And your thing does not beatthat.
And it's a really easyconversation.
They're like, yeah, you'reright.
We're opening a hotel, my thingthat I care about isn't that
(15:41):
important in the grand realityof things.
So usually people then have togo figure out how do I get
creative to solve the thing Iwant to do, or should I be doing
this at all?
They don't love it though.
It's not a fun conversation, butit's the truth.
SPEAKER_02 (15:56):
I am just immensely jealous of the power that you
wield.
And maybe it's maybe it's alsothat I'm just immensely burnt
out on startup lifestyle.
I I just can't imagine like one,having something, having a
priority three years out, what awhat a dream, what a vision.
Try I can't get priorities likesix months out.
(16:19):
Uh we're we're living by theseat of our pants, which are on
fire, right?
And then you know, that isstartup.
We have the ability to benimble, we have the ability to
be agile, so everything isreactive.
Very few things are prioritizedto that level.
Very few things.
I tried to actually make a acalendar this year of all the
content uh that we would beworking on and planning and
(16:41):
doing thought leadership around.
And I looked at it a week agoand was like, well, dang, we
didn't even do 50% of this.
It's just how much changed withplanning.
So don't have that luxury.
And you know, because of that,meetings when they when they do
happen, they're importantbecause it's it is whatever the
newest priority is.
That's what we're meeting on,that's what we're talking about,
that's what we're focusing on.
(17:01):
It's what's the projects forthis quarter.
We don't ever talk aboutanything that is more than a
quarter out.
Never.
I've never had a meeting aboutanything longer than a quarter
out ever in my life at thiscompany.
SPEAKER_03 (17:14):
I imagine, and maybe this is one of like it's funny
because the outcome is the same.
We both still have tons ofmeetings.
We both look back at ourroadmaps and a lot of it changes
of like this is the plan.
We deviated a lot from thisplan.
Like both of us, the outcomesare the same there, regardless
(17:34):
of the size of our corporation.
And I think it just comes downto you know, meetings are
necessary to keep thatone-on-one connection,
especially as you're a managerwith your team, to grow people
to help work through the maybenuance of a project or blockers
(17:56):
that come up, or just kind ofgoing all hands on deck to get
the job done.
Like I'd say, even though it'svery different while we're
having those meetings and whatyou have on your calendar versus
what I have on my calendar, Ithink the the actual minutia of
the meeting itself is around thecore same problems or things
that we need to do, which isreally interesting, actually.
(18:18):
And the outcome's the same.
Like we both end up with thesame results.
SPEAKER_02 (18:23):
So yes, but how do I solve my problem?
Which is I hate meetings and I'mstuck in them all day.
SPEAKER_03 (18:30):
To be honest with you, I feel like in a startup,
there's no such thing as anuninterrupted individual
contributor.
So true.
It's like I even think of likesoftware engineering as a
startup.
It's like product productmanagement comes in, your
favorite Bruce, and they'relike, hey, we gotta change
direction, we've got to work onanother feature.
That might happen like multipletimes every sprint, and you know
(18:51):
it's happening.
And so at a startup, I justthink you're accepting a higher
level of collaboration andvisibility because the team's so
small.
SPEAKER_02 (19:00):
Yeah, no, you might be right.
This just might be a monster ofstartups making, and I've I've
grown weary of it.
But uh dang, I wish I wish youhad a solve.
I wish there was a salve that Icould rub on my eyes to make
this a little bit morepalatable.
SPEAKER_03 (19:17):
Well, I think, you know, two thoughts.
In big corporations, there's away to get out of meeting hell.
And it's to remain an individualcontributor.
Yes.
And say, don't do a lot well.
Do a little well.
I know that sounds terrible, butit's true.
(19:37):
It's like I know you could be sogood at one like thing like dot
net or firmware programming, andlike don't take on a bunch of
projects.
Just take on like one or two andbe like, sorry, I can't take on
anymore.
And like the reality of yourlife is you will know what
you're doing a year out fromnow, and you will have no
meanings to ever talk about itbecause you're probably the only
person who does it.
(19:58):
You'll just kind of getforgotten about.
I love that.
SPEAKER_02 (20:04):
I think uh I I wish I had that ability, but
unfortunately, cat's out of thebag for me.
The the the one thing that I'vetried to do in the past is like
actively block my calendar tostop meetings from taking the
space.
But all that does is it justpushes them out to inconvenient
times for me.
So it's like, oh, I hope youlike meetings at eight or six or
(20:28):
back to back.
So now what it's what's funny isthey'll never actually like
request a block time that I'vejust blocked to work on things,
they'll double book anotherimportant meeting so I have a
conversation of which one wouldyou like me to go to?
I just I cannot figure out a wayto remedy this problem.
But uh it's it sounds like theproblem isn't the meetings.
(20:49):
That's that is a symptom of amuch greater sickness.
SPEAKER_03 (20:54):
I think that's true for both of us, actually.
Yeah like a greaterorganizational sickness that
could be skill set, it could bepeople, it could be
organizational, you know, thatthe way the organization was
structured forces you to havemore meetings than you probably
need, unfortunately.
Like you createinterdependencies between teams,
(21:15):
you create all these loops whereyou can't have autonomy and flow
in a single team, you have torely on seven different teams to
get anything done.
Like the symptoms are a plenty,but I think, like you said, I
think there are tactics that youcan use to make it better.
Like I think you just mentionedone.
It's if you are suffering frommeeting hell, get better at
(21:36):
planning.
Plan your week ahead of time.
Block your calendar so youactually get a lunch and can
breathe.
Like get some time on yourcalendar so that you have some
some me time and you don't getburnt out like poor poor Brucey.
Burnt out Brucie over here isstruggling with.
SPEAKER_02 (21:50):
You know what else you can do.
What else?
Hit me.
You can schedule meetings on thequarter, not the hour or half
hour, which everyone does.
So from 2.15 to 2.45, that'swhen we're doing our meeting.
What that does is it really justFs up everyone who schedules on
the hour and half hour, which99% of people do.
(22:14):
So you at least get like 30minutes, 15 and 15, which isn't
much, but you know, it's good ifyou need to take a dump.
SPEAKER_03 (22:21):
Yeah.
I actually first of all, I lovethat you went right into that.
That is a great tactic, is likeend the meeting a little early
or start it off kilter just tobe like, hey, I knew we need a
10-minute break, and staggering.
Nobody, nobody can easilyschedule a 10-minute meeting.
So it will take them some effortto figure this out if they if
they're gonna try.
SPEAKER_02 (22:39):
You are gonna ruin people's days if you do this,
though.
Uh, I do do this in emergencieswhen I'm like, I just can't.
I'm gonna schedule like from 215to 245, but you're gonna piss
people off just to promise,because they're gonna look at
your calendar because you'reimportant, they're gonna want to
schedule you and think about howdo I schedule Bruce?
He's got these weird blocks, Ican't I can't fit him in with
(22:59):
the rest of the organization.
Now you're double booked.
SPEAKER_03 (23:03):
Yeah.
I I like that tip though.
I think it's a good tip.
I'd also say two more tips forme because I know we're we're
cutting it short on time.
SPEAKER_01 (23:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:13):
I think if you're the one scheduling a meeting,
make sure the objective is clearand give an agenda for people to
understand so you know whatyou're you're gonna get out and
start your meeting that way.
Hey, the objective of thismeeting is to get XYZ by this
date or to make a plan orwhatever, like be very clear
that by the end of the meeting,what does success look like?
(23:33):
And that kind of leads me to mysecond point of I think we need
to get out of telling peopleexactly what to do and tell them
what the outcome looks like.
I think that's a lot of what Isee a lot of managers get stuck
in, traps on, even my ownmanagers on my team that are
managing the rest of my team.
I'm like, don't go in and justtell your team exactly what to
do.
(23:54):
Don't say, hey, I need you to gowrite this PRD and have it to me
by Wednesday.
It's no, hey, I need you to gogather the necessary
requirements and show me howit's going to meet the business
value we're trying to achieve.
And it's more success-basedrather than task-based.
And what that does is it putsrather than okay, you come back
(24:15):
to me, Bruce, with a PRD by theend of the week.
I'm like, okay, great.
Now let's read through ittogether.
Wait, it doesn't hit thisobjective, this objective, this
objective.
I'm like, I don't understand howwe realize value with the
requirements you put together.
Like, what is the end goal?
And so, like, then we have to gointo, okay, well, yeah, what is
the end goal?
It's like, if you start withthat and say, hey, here's what
success looks like, here's yourconstraints.
(24:35):
You've got this much time,you've got this much money, you
have this many people.
That's your constraint.
Success is achieving objectiveX, Y, or Z.
Show me a plan on how you'regonna do that.
And when you get into meetings,have them tell you about how
they're working towards thatplan, not the tactical minutiae
of like, I wrote three userstories today, I think it's
really gonna help keep the teammoving.
(24:56):
It's like, no, that doesn'tmatter.
Are you tracking towards yourgoal of your objectives or
whatever that is?
So I think that's that's mybiggest tip for managers out
there.
So, what does success look like?
What are your constraints?
And have them tell you the planon how they're looking to get
there rather than you tellingthem how to do it.
I love it.
SPEAKER_02 (25:15):
I think that's actually a really good way to
break down and drive outcomes.
And it's also a good way toevaluate and see if your team is
capable of doing the jobs thatthey've been hired for.
Um, really, really good point.
You know, it's it's very ironicthat is the point when we
literally just came up with thistopic for a podcast 30 seconds
(25:37):
before starting it.
So I appreciate you offeringthat advice in these trying
times of podcast creation.
And on that note, we are out oftime.
So if you want to get involvedwith all things corporate
strategy, make sure to clickyour show notes, take a look at
that link tree.
You can join our Discord, youcan buy a baby onesie from our
(25:59):
spreadshop, you can give usmoney because we pay to put this
show out there and you cansupport us and we'd love you for
it.
Uh, you can also share this podwith your friends, family,
neighbors, and everyone youknow, uh, coworkers.
If corporate strategy makes agreat Christmas gift, just give
them a link.
And uh hey, happy Christmas.
Here's a link to a podcast.
It's the best gift.
It skips it keeps on givingbecause you're gonna get free,
(26:21):
fresh content year-round fromyour favorite two creators,
Bruce and Clark.
Everyone loves them, they're sogood.
Get it.
Uh thanks for your listenership.
Join the Discord, get in theconversation.
We gotta run.
As per usual, today this podcastcould have been in an email, but
we didn't.
I'm Bruce.
SPEAKER_03 (26:42):
Merrickrima.
SPEAKER_02 (26:44):
Merrickrima, you're you're you're on mute.
See you next week.
Merrickrima.
Oh hey, what's going on?
Oh hey, I was uh mid-thought,but uh yeah, just go ahead and
throw Craig in.
Why not?
Let's start recording.
SPEAKER_02 (00:09):
I I've been doing a lot of preparation for this
episode, which I know you havejust a short amount of time to
talk about.
Uh I've I've been thinking aboutthis topic forever, really.
This is not a just a last minuteclimb on the wall grab bag of a
thing for us to discuss.
But given our given our shortstint of time, I do see a kitty
(00:30):
cat on your desk.
SPEAKER_03 (00:31):
I'm on a standing desk too.
I don't know if she's about todo a suicide bomb on a oh oh
there it is.
Suicide bomb.
Solid.
She's gone.
SPEAKER_02 (00:40):
That cat just did a dive bomb to the floor.
Sorry to distract you.
SPEAKER_01 (00:45):
You know what else?
You know what else did a divebomb to the floor?
What?
What should we do then?
Corporate strategy, podcast thatcould have been an email.
I'm bruised.
SPEAKER_02 (00:56):
And today we're talking about meetings.
This meeting could have been anemail.
The podcast that could have beena meeting that could have been
an email.
We haven't talked about meetingsin a long time.
And uh I thought for m formonths now I've said, hey, we
need to do an episode where werevisit the topic of meetings.
How do you run them?
How do you make them good?
(01:16):
How do you actually get valueout of them?
Meetings suck, man.
I don't know about you, but likein the world of I think in the
world of remote work, one of theone of the few things that
became worse was the meeting.
Because I feel like you can justcall them whenever you want.
Uh you're you're kind of heldhostage by them, especially if
(01:36):
you're in like a cameras onenvironment.
Um it's just it's just theworst.
I hate meetings.
How about you?
SPEAKER_03 (01:44):
They're they're the freaking worst, dude.
Like the the absolute worst.
I've been thinking about howlately I've just been trapped in
these ongoing meetings.
Like, oh yeah, we'll scale we'llschedule a series around it.
Like, yeah, we'll schedule aseries.
And then you know it's sevenyears later and you still have
that series on your calendar.
Like, what am I doing still inthis?
(02:06):
Yeah, yeah, it's it is actuallythe worst.
SPEAKER_02 (02:10):
And I I don't I don't know.
I am at the point I'm at thepoint of uh no return.
I if I if I could drop 75% ofthe meetings on my calendar, I
would be a s just a differentperson.
I'd be a happy, changed,wonderful person.
So what can we do?
(02:31):
Clark, what can we do ascitizens of Corp to make the
meetings suck less?
Let me ask you this.
unknown (02:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (02:38):
Hypothetical.
Hypothetical.
Follow me.
Type me.
What if you just said no and youdidn't go to any of the
meetings?
Can't do it.
Can't do it.
Why can't you do it?
Let's dig into that.
I'm part of the problem.
I'm running half of themeetings.
I'm running.
Oh, half?
Okay, wait, wait, hold on, holdon.
What percentage of meetings doyou actually schedule?
(02:59):
Half?
Let me take a look.
I have my calendar right here.
SPEAKER_02 (03:05):
We're gonna do an analysis.
One, two, three, four, five,six, seven, seven, eight, nine.
SPEAKER_00 (03:15):
Ten.
Eleven twelve.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
I'm running twelve of fourteen meetings.
You are the problem.
You are the this is you.
You're the problem.
SPEAKER_03 (03:28):
But I have to run them.
Otherwise, no one else will.
I'm looking through my calendarright now.
I don't know which is worse,actually.
I have one, two, three, four.
SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
Four meetings that I've scheduled this week.
SPEAKER_03 (03:47):
And the rest is from everyone else.
SPEAKER_02 (03:49):
I should mention this week's a three-day for me.
So that's even worse.
In three days.
SPEAKER_01 (03:56):
That is so much worse.
SPEAKER_03 (03:58):
Yeah.
Oh my gosh, that's those poorpeople around you.
Okay, well, we can dig intothis.
SPEAKER_02 (04:06):
Poor me, man.
I'm the one doing the work.
I'm the one who's like keepingthe wings on the plane.
SPEAKER_03 (04:13):
Okay, this is this is important.
Let's get into why.
I want to hear your perspective.
Why do you need to schedulethose meetings rather than
sending an email, doing a sprintplan, whatever?
And I will also explain why,because I think there's two
separate problems.
You're scheduling meetings for areason, and you have to schedule
(04:34):
a lot of them.
I have to attend a lot ofmeetings, and I don't really
have a choice either.
So my calendar is, and I thinkjust for the folks out there, we
both have just jam packcalendars.
I mean, some days for me are30-minute back-to-back for like
10 hours straight.
Like that happens.
unknown (04:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:53):
You've got to let 30 where I wasn't busy.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (04:56):
Exactly.
And it is so draining from amental capacity standpoint to
say, all right, 30 minutes thistopic, 30 minutes this topic, 30
minutes chatting with thisperson about a range of topics,
30 minutes to this.
And like your brain at the endof those days, you're like, I
don't know what's up, I don'tknow what's down, I don't know
what's all around, but my brainain't here anymore.
And that's how you feel at theend of these days.
(05:17):
It's crazy.
It's crazy to live like this.
And I don't think we're the onlyones.
I think everyone else is beingon the stage.
SPEAKER_02 (05:24):
So, so to your question, uh, I would say about
50% of the meetings this weekare one-on-ones.
So, conversations between eitherme and my team or me and other
folks that need either mymentorship or my direct work on
things to help them do theirjobs.
So 50% is just me being a goodhuman being that cares about
(05:47):
other human beings.
Still exhausting.
It's very exhausting.
There's a lot to keep track of.
The other 50% of the meetingsare either team thinks where
everyone's kind of like sharingwhat they're doing, if they need
help, what they need, you kindof stand up.
Or it is discussions about aproject.
(06:08):
Because and and you know, I Ijest, we all jest this meeting
could have been an email, but Ithink the the real problem is
there's just the the questionthat that rings true for me
every day is do I want to typeout an eight-page email that no
one's gonna read, or do I wantto hold these people hostage and
have a conversation?
(06:30):
So which is it, right?
Because it's gonna need to getdone, and I'm not gonna do it.
So someone's gotta do it, and Ihave to orate to them what the
thing is so they can do it, orwork with someone to do it.
Ergo vis-a-vis concordedly, Igot a lot of meetings on my
calendar.
SPEAKER_03 (06:48):
Yeah.
It's really yeah, it's adifficult predicament.
And like I I think when yourteam gets to a certain size, you
have to start building structureto the team.
Like, this is something I mean,my team's 16 people now.
Like, there's no way I couldhave weekly one-on-ones with the
(07:09):
team, and also I need to developsome sort of like growth pattern
for them.
It's like there's a senior, moresenior level of my team, and
there's three of them thatmanage everyone else.
And so the only people I meetwith weekly are those three core
more senior management people onmy team.
And those are the people thatlike I always am talking with.
They're my top three becausethere's no way I could do 15.
(07:31):
And then they help you knowdirect the team beyond.
But I do sync up with everybodyon my team.
Like I have monthly with a few,but quarterly with some of just
like, hey, we're like threelevels removed.
I'm never quarterly with youbecause I still want to connect
with you.
I want us to have arelationship, but we don't need
to be syncing because we wouldjust not have anything to talk
(07:52):
about.
So I don't know if that is onethought.
I don't your your team's grownquite a bit too, but not a it's
not a possibility.
SPEAKER_00 (07:59):
Absolutely out of the question.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:01):
I meet with non-team members every week.
Uh it's it's out of the questionbecause I am such a crucial
piece of the marketingdepartment that they need to
talk with me.
I need to talk with them.
There is like work will not getdone if we don't meet and speak,
which is you know, just it iswhat it is.
SPEAKER_03 (08:23):
Startup loves.
Let me ask you this, because Ido this to people who are not my
direct team.
I still care about them aspeople, but I don't necessarily
see a lot of value in us meetingon work-related topics.
And so they schedule a meetingwith me and I say, make it 15
minutes.
Let's do 15.
We'll do 15, we'll catch upbecause we have nothing super
critical to talk about, but Iknow we just need to maintain a
(08:45):
relationship.
Is it rude or is it okay?
SPEAKER_02 (08:48):
I think it's rude.
Yeah.
I mentor a lot of these people.
Like some of these people Imentor.
So like it's not just a I'mhelping them with their work,
it's like there's a mentorshipangle there too.
Yeah, it's tough, man.
Like, I look at my calendar andI don't see anything that I
could actively cancel.
Now, there are things that Iwish folks would be able to take
(09:11):
on and do on their own, but thatcomes with more mentorship,
right?
So it's yeah, you know, it's acatch 22, which requires more
meetings.
So it's tough.
SPEAKER_03 (09:23):
Tough it is, it's hard.
Yeah.
A couple of tricks that I use isyeah, if you've got a team, you
need to extract it a bit andcreate a management layer in
which your team gets probablypast 10, because you just can't
have even 10, 30-minuteone-on-ones a week is that's
five hours.
That's a lot of time.
It is a lot of time, but you dohave to have you know some sort
of ongoing cadence with yourpartners because at a big
(09:45):
corporation, even a startup, ifyou're not constantly holding
that relationship, meeting withyour level partners, and also
your more senior leaders too, oflike your management chain, all
those things add up, and it'smany, many hours a week.
And to your point, it is reallyhard to skip those.
But if you can shorten it to 15minutes, I do it.
(10:07):
Some people probably think it'srude.
But I'm like, hey, we don't haveany work relation ties.
I know we want to meet and talkabout things, but I'm sorry,
I've got 15 minutes for you.
SPEAKER_01 (10:18):
Dude, that's like hard.
SPEAKER_03 (10:20):
I know it's so mean, but it's like it's the reality,
right?
It's like I've got all theseprojects, I can't squeeze
another 30-minute meeting, evenif I wanted to, I couldn't do
it.
My brain will be more dead.
So it's rude, but you can atleast say, hey, I'm still making
time for you.
I just can't give you a full 30this week.
So if you want to catch up, I'llgive you 15.
(10:40):
I can't do it.
I can't do that.
I know it's it's a time.
SPEAKER_01 (10:43):
Give me another tip.
Give me another tip.
SPEAKER_03 (10:45):
Yeah.
I I almost want to look at like,I've got the reverse problem.
I put it on rather than mescheduling, I put the
responsibility on other peopleif they need me for something.
Yeah.
And like that's hard too, right?
Because it's like, hey, I am notgoing to schedule a standing
meeting because I am not the onewho is bringing things to you
(11:08):
for guidance or for help.
And I'm not going to hold youaccountable to those.
Well, I am going to hold themaccountable to these things.
But I'm like, you schedule timefor me or with me on my calendar
and you bring the agenda.
Like, this is your time.
You tell me what you need helpwith.
Come to me with an agenda.
Please send it ahead of time.
Then I can review it and beprepared to help you as
efficiently as we can.
So like I put all the effort onothers if they need me as a
(11:32):
critical piece to something.
Now, the meetings I do have toschedule, I think, are very
similar to the ones you have to.
It's like there's somethingcritical that only I can do, and
I've got to guide a group ofpeople to go get the thing done.
And so, like, those are my fourlengthy-ish 90 to 120 minute
meetings that I scheduled thisweek is like focus topics so I
(11:52):
can drive a product or a projector whatever it is forward.
SPEAKER_02 (11:58):
If I told someone to bring an agenda to the meeting,
they would look at me like I hadjust landed from a different
planet.
They'd be like, Bruz?
I I don't know how to do that.
What that's a problem.
(12:18):
There's gotta be an agenda inmeetings.
No.
Well, I mean, there's a looseagenda, but like expecting them
to run the meeting, you're outof your mind.
You're out of your mind.
SPEAKER_03 (12:30):
I don't know if it's just an enterprise versus
startup thing, but I do expectan agenda.
Like, there's so much that if Iget a random meeting that just
has a subject line, I'mdeclining and responding back.
Please send an agenda so Iunderstand the objective of this
meeting.
What fortunate, lucky planet doyou live on?
I would get an enterprise, anenterprise very large company
(12:52):
where we have teams of teams ofteams.
Blend in and hide in the masses.
You definitely can.
Yeah, but I don't know any ofthat.
For me, it's it's the it's thecore part of kicking off a
meeting.
It's like, what is the objectiveof the meeting?
And then what's the agenda?
What are we trying to get on theother side of this?
And if I I don't attend meetingsunless I understand that.
(13:13):
Because what's the point?
Like I have to understand whyI'm there, why you need me, and
if it needs to be a priority, ifit doesn't, I'm not coming.
SPEAKER_02 (13:21):
So, you know, it's funny.
Um, if I had to quantify lookingat my calendar, every meeting
that I go to, they're allimportant.
None I can't skip any of them.
We don't have meetings to meet.
Uh, if we did, that would be aconversation to be had.
But that we just don't have thatluxury, right?
Like everything is a priority,everything's important.
(13:43):
Everything requires someone'sdomain expertise, probably me.
And that's why I'm there.
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (13:52):
Yeah.
Yeah, it is tough.
It is really hard in a startupbecause you're kind of flying
by, like, every day can bedifferent.
In my case, something couldhappen tomorrow in the market or
your company where you're like,we've got to react, we gotta
move.
I think in a larger corporation,we have the benefit of long-term
planning.
And so, like, right now, we'replanning out the next three
(14:14):
years of stuff, right?
So, like, we know what thepriorities are, we generally
know what we're working on.
Now, how exactly the details,the tactical planning of that
could be totally different as wekind of get into the actual work
itself, but generally we knowthe priority of things.
So, I can easily look at mycalendar and be like, hey, this
thing's not a priority for me,and we put it three years from
(14:36):
now.
So, I'm not talking about itthis year.
And people don't love thatanswer, but it's the truth.
It's like, I don't know what totell you.
It's not a priority fororganization at the moment, and
I know you care about it, butsorry, got to focus on the
priorities.
How do they respond when you saythat?
Usually, I mean, some peopledon't love it, obviously.
They're like, What do you meanit's not a priority?
(14:57):
I'm like, listen, we got thesepriorities, it's time, scope,
resources.
Like, if we don't get thesethings done, we can't support.
I've mentioned this in previouspodcasts, but for everyone who's
new here, my job is not thesoftware business or the
hardware business.
We support a larger kind ofentertainment and hospitality
brand.
So for us, it's like, hey, yeah,that let's say, yeah,
(15:20):
hospitamment, some people mightsay.
But it could be like a hotel, itcould be, you know, a new film
or something like that.
And I'm just throwing arbitraryexamples of the generic industry
that I'm in.
But it could be like, hey, thatthing's coming out, it's got a
deadline.
And your thing does not beatthat.
And it's a really easyconversation.
They're like, yeah, you'reright.
We're opening a hotel, my thingthat I care about isn't that
(15:41):
important in the grand realityof things.
So usually people then have togo figure out how do I get
creative to solve the thing Iwant to do, or should I be doing
this at all?
They don't love it though.
It's not a fun conversation, butit's the truth.
SPEAKER_02 (15:56):
I am just immensely jealous of the power that you
wield.
And maybe it's maybe it's alsothat I'm just immensely burnt
out on startup lifestyle.
I I just can't imagine like one,having something, having a
priority three years out, what awhat a dream, what a vision.
Try I can't get priorities likesix months out.
(16:19):
Uh we're we're living by theseat of our pants, which are on
fire, right?
And then you know, that isstartup.
We have the ability to benimble, we have the ability to
be agile, so everything isreactive.
Very few things are prioritizedto that level.
Very few things.
I tried to actually make a acalendar this year of all the
content uh that we would beworking on and planning and
(16:41):
doing thought leadership around.
And I looked at it a week agoand was like, well, dang, we
didn't even do 50% of this.
It's just how much changed withplanning.
So don't have that luxury.
And you know, because of that,meetings when they when they do
happen, they're importantbecause it's it is whatever the
newest priority is.
That's what we're meeting on,that's what we're talking about,
that's what we're focusing on.
(17:01):
It's what's the projects forthis quarter.
We don't ever talk aboutanything that is more than a
quarter out.
Never.
I've never had a meeting aboutanything longer than a quarter
out ever in my life at thiscompany.
SPEAKER_03 (17:14):
I imagine, and maybe this is one of like it's funny
because the outcome is the same.
We both still have tons ofmeetings.
We both look back at ourroadmaps and a lot of it changes
of like this is the plan.
We deviated a lot from thisplan.
Like both of us, the outcomesare the same there, regardless
(17:34):
of the size of our corporation.
And I think it just comes downto you know, meetings are
necessary to keep thatone-on-one connection,
especially as you're a managerwith your team, to grow people
to help work through the maybenuance of a project or blockers
(17:56):
that come up, or just kind ofgoing all hands on deck to get
the job done.
Like I'd say, even though it'svery different while we're
having those meetings and whatyou have on your calendar versus
what I have on my calendar, Ithink the the actual minutia of
the meeting itself is around thecore same problems or things
that we need to do, which isreally interesting, actually.
(18:18):
And the outcome's the same.
Like we both end up with thesame results.
SPEAKER_02 (18:23):
So yes, but how do I solve my problem?
Which is I hate meetings and I'mstuck in them all day.
SPEAKER_03 (18:30):
To be honest with you, I feel like in a startup,
there's no such thing as anuninterrupted individual
contributor.
So true.
It's like I even think of likesoftware engineering as a
startup.
It's like product productmanagement comes in, your
favorite Bruce, and they'relike, hey, we gotta change
direction, we've got to work onanother feature.
That might happen like multipletimes every sprint, and you know
(18:51):
it's happening.
And so at a startup, I justthink you're accepting a higher
level of collaboration andvisibility because the team's so
small.
SPEAKER_02 (19:00):
Yeah, no, you might be right.
This just might be a monster ofstartups making, and I've I've
grown weary of it.
But uh dang, I wish I wish youhad a solve.
I wish there was a salve that Icould rub on my eyes to make
this a little bit morepalatable.
SPEAKER_03 (19:17):
Well, I think, you know, two thoughts.
In big corporations, there's away to get out of meeting hell.
And it's to remain an individualcontributor.
Yes.
And say, don't do a lot well.
Do a little well.
I know that sounds terrible, butit's true.
(19:37):
It's like I know you could be sogood at one like thing like dot
net or firmware programming, andlike don't take on a bunch of
projects.
Just take on like one or two andbe like, sorry, I can't take on
anymore.
And like the reality of yourlife is you will know what
you're doing a year out fromnow, and you will have no
meanings to ever talk about itbecause you're probably the only
person who does it.
(19:58):
You'll just kind of getforgotten about.
I love that.
SPEAKER_02 (20:04):
I think uh I I wish I had that ability, but
unfortunately, cat's out of thebag for me.
The the the one thing that I'vetried to do in the past is like
actively block my calendar tostop meetings from taking the
space.
But all that does is it justpushes them out to inconvenient
times for me.
So it's like, oh, I hope youlike meetings at eight or six or
(20:28):
back to back.
So now what it's what's funny isthey'll never actually like
request a block time that I'vejust blocked to work on things,
they'll double book anotherimportant meeting so I have a
conversation of which one wouldyou like me to go to?
I just I cannot figure out a wayto remedy this problem.
But uh it's it sounds like theproblem isn't the meetings.
(20:49):
That's that is a symptom of amuch greater sickness.
SPEAKER_03 (20:54):
I think that's true for both of us, actually.
Yeah like a greaterorganizational sickness that
could be skill set, it could bepeople, it could be
organizational, you know, thatthe way the organization was
structured forces you to havemore meetings than you probably
need, unfortunately.
Like you createinterdependencies between teams,
(21:15):
you create all these loops whereyou can't have autonomy and flow
in a single team, you have torely on seven different teams to
get anything done.
Like the symptoms are a plenty,but I think, like you said, I
think there are tactics that youcan use to make it better.
Like I think you just mentionedone.
It's if you are suffering frommeeting hell, get better at
(21:36):
planning.
Plan your week ahead of time.
Block your calendar so youactually get a lunch and can
breathe.
Like get some time on yourcalendar so that you have some
some me time and you don't getburnt out like poor poor Brucey.
Burnt out Brucie over here isstruggling with.
SPEAKER_02 (21:50):
You know what else you can do.
What else?
Hit me.
You can schedule meetings on thequarter, not the hour or half
hour, which everyone does.
So from 2.15 to 2.45, that'swhen we're doing our meeting.
What that does is it really justFs up everyone who schedules on
the hour and half hour, which99% of people do.
(22:14):
So you at least get like 30minutes, 15 and 15, which isn't
much, but you know, it's good ifyou need to take a dump.
SPEAKER_03 (22:21):
Yeah.
I actually first of all, I lovethat you went right into that.
That is a great tactic, is likeend the meeting a little early
or start it off kilter just tobe like, hey, I knew we need a
10-minute break, and staggering.
Nobody, nobody can easilyschedule a 10-minute meeting.
So it will take them some effortto figure this out if they if
they're gonna try.
SPEAKER_02 (22:39):
You are gonna ruin people's days if you do this,
though.
Uh, I do do this in emergencieswhen I'm like, I just can't.
I'm gonna schedule like from 215to 245, but you're gonna piss
people off just to promise,because they're gonna look at
your calendar because you'reimportant, they're gonna want to
schedule you and think about howdo I schedule Bruce?
He's got these weird blocks, Ican't I can't fit him in with
(22:59):
the rest of the organization.
Now you're double booked.
SPEAKER_03 (23:03):
Yeah.
I I like that tip though.
I think it's a good tip.
I'd also say two more tips forme because I know we're we're
cutting it short on time.
SPEAKER_01 (23:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:13):
I think if you're the one scheduling a meeting,
make sure the objective is clearand give an agenda for people to
understand so you know whatyou're you're gonna get out and
start your meeting that way.
Hey, the objective of thismeeting is to get XYZ by this
date or to make a plan orwhatever, like be very clear
that by the end of the meeting,what does success look like?
(23:33):
And that kind of leads me to mysecond point of I think we need
to get out of telling peopleexactly what to do and tell them
what the outcome looks like.
I think that's a lot of what Isee a lot of managers get stuck
in, traps on, even my ownmanagers on my team that are
managing the rest of my team.
I'm like, don't go in and justtell your team exactly what to
do.
(23:54):
Don't say, hey, I need you to gowrite this PRD and have it to me
by Wednesday.
It's no, hey, I need you to gogather the necessary
requirements and show me howit's going to meet the business
value we're trying to achieve.
And it's more success-basedrather than task-based.
And what that does is it putsrather than okay, you come back
(24:15):
to me, Bruce, with a PRD by theend of the week.
I'm like, okay, great.
Now let's read through ittogether.
Wait, it doesn't hit thisobjective, this objective, this
objective.
I'm like, I don't understand howwe realize value with the
requirements you put together.
Like, what is the end goal?
And so, like, then we have to gointo, okay, well, yeah, what is
the end goal?
It's like, if you start withthat and say, hey, here's what
success looks like, here's yourconstraints.
(24:35):
You've got this much time,you've got this much money, you
have this many people.
That's your constraint.
Success is achieving objectiveX, Y, or Z.
Show me a plan on how you'regonna do that.
And when you get into meetings,have them tell you about how
they're working towards thatplan, not the tactical minutiae
of like, I wrote three userstories today, I think it's
really gonna help keep the teammoving.
(24:56):
It's like, no, that doesn'tmatter.
Are you tracking towards yourgoal of your objectives or
whatever that is?
So I think that's that's mybiggest tip for managers out
there.
So, what does success look like?
What are your constraints?
And have them tell you the planon how they're looking to get
there rather than you tellingthem how to do it.
I love it.
SPEAKER_02 (25:15):
I think that's actually a really good way to
break down and drive outcomes.
And it's also a good way toevaluate and see if your team is
capable of doing the jobs thatthey've been hired for.
Um, really, really good point.
You know, it's it's very ironicthat is the point when we
literally just came up with thistopic for a podcast 30 seconds
(25:37):
before starting it.
So I appreciate you offeringthat advice in these trying
times of podcast creation.
And on that note, we are out oftime.
So if you want to get involvedwith all things corporate
strategy, make sure to clickyour show notes, take a look at
that link tree.
You can join our Discord, youcan buy a baby onesie from our
(25:59):
spreadshop, you can give usmoney because we pay to put this
show out there and you cansupport us and we'd love you for
it.
Uh, you can also share this podwith your friends, family,
neighbors, and everyone youknow, uh, coworkers.
If corporate strategy makes agreat Christmas gift, just give
them a link.
And uh hey, happy Christmas.
Here's a link to a podcast.
It's the best gift.
It skips it keeps on givingbecause you're gonna get free,
(26:21):
fresh content year-round fromyour favorite two creators,
Bruce and Clark.
Everyone loves them, they're sogood.
Get it.
Uh thanks for your listenership.
Join the Discord, get in theconversation.
We gotta run.
As per usual, today this podcastcould have been in an email, but
we didn't.
I'm Bruce.
SPEAKER_03 (26:42):
Merrickrima.
SPEAKER_02 (26:44):
Merrickrima, you're you're you're on mute.
See you next week.
Merrickrima.
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