October 21, 2024 • 42 mins
Join host Adam Larson as he chats with the insightful Rachel Kourakos, transition and leadership coach at Rachel Kourakos Coaching & Consulting, about the art of human interactions and mastering self-awareness. Rachel shares impactful stories and practical tips on understanding others' needs, handling feedback constructively, and managing emotions consciously. They discuss the beauty and opportunities within change, the power of self-talk, and how to approach life’s transitions with positivity.
Rachel emphasizes that everyone makes choices that shape their experiences—whether we realize it or not. Tune in to learn how adopting a leadership mindset, practicing empathy, and embracing curiosity can transform both personal and professional lives. Packed with heartfelt anecdotes and engaging dialogue, this episode promises valuable takeaways for anyone looking to enhance their communication skills and emotional intelligence.
Listen and get inspired to lead your life with intention and awareness!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Adam Larson (00:21):
Welcome to Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam Larson.
Today, I'm thrilled to be joinedby the insightful Rachel
Kourakos. Rachel is a transitionand leadership coach at Rachel
Kourakos Coaching andConsulting, where she works with
individuals and organizations tohelp empower people in their
individual journey. Today,Rachel shares her insights on
mastering human interactions,understanding personal
(00:42):
boundaries, and the importanceof self awareness in the
personal and professionalsetting.
We'll discuss how emotionalintelligence can reduce
misunderstandings and aideffective leadership. Rachel
offers a unique perspective onembracing change playfully and
challenges eliminatingnarratives that often hold us
back. Join us as Rachel providespractical advice on leading with
authenticity, using empathy andcuriosity to build genuine
(01:05):
connections, and navigatinglife's transitions with
intention. This episode ispacked with wisdom to help you
grow and thrive. So grab yourheadphones and tune in.
Well, Rachel, thank you so muchfor coming on the podcast. We're
really excited to have you heretalking about, becoming a better
(01:26):
leader by knowing yourself. Andas we've been chatting off and
on, on leading up to thisconversation, there's one thing
you keep saying that everybody'sa leader. And the way society
has things broken down is veryhierarchical, and because of,
you know, historically, youcould probably go into a whole
speech about why the system'sset up that way. But not
everybody necessarily agreeswith that.
(01:46):
Can you can we talk a little bitmore about that?
Rachel Kourakos (01:48):
Yeah. Absolutely. Well, it's so nice
to be here, Adam. I'm so excitedto talk to you about this topic.
And I think, you know, as we'vespoken, when we think about
leadership, there's one versionof it that is all about the
hierarchy.
The, you know, we come in order,and as you said, society sets
things up to create hierarchythat allows us to really
understand where we fall in thesocial construct, how we show
(02:12):
up, the type of work that we do,especially when you're working
at large organizations, and ithelps guide us in understanding
the roles and responsibilitiesthat we have.
Adam Larson (02:21):
Mhmm.
Rachel Kourakos (02:21):
However, I wholeheartedly believe that
being a leader is actually anattitude. It's a perspective.
It's a way that you understandyourself and how you relate to
the world around you thateveryone has access to. And the
mistake that I see people makeis they sort of wait until
someone says, okay. Now, Adam,you are the leader.
(02:42):
Now you are the senior person inorder to then activate that part
of themselves. And the the ironyof that is is you don't become a
leader when someone puts thecrown on your head and says, now
you are a manager. Now you are aleader. Oftentimes, what's
required is you have to becultivating that sense of
leadership, and we'll talk aboutwhat I mean by that, well before
(03:03):
you are actually given thatcrown. And so the mistake that I
mentioned that people make isthey say, okay.
Well, once I get thatrecognition or once I get that
acknowledgment as a leader, Iwill then be showcasing all of
these different attributes,excuse me, attributes, and, it
will help me build my sense ofself and my sense sense of
confidence once I have thatthing. When, actually, when I'm
(03:27):
working with people and coachingleaders, whether they're execs
or rising execs, a lot of thework that we're doing is how can
you channel that sense ofleadership and confidence
beforehand so that when you doget that crown, so to speak,
it's already a natural thingthat's flowing. It's not a
before and after in that moment.It's the before before before,
and then you get thatrecognition and it's and, of
(03:49):
course, it's happening. And sowhen I say everyone is already a
leader, what I'm encouragingpeople to to recognize in
themselves is every day ineverything you're doing, in
every conversation, in everydecision, you are either leading
yourself or someone else.
And when you start to seeyourself in that way that, oh,
I'm actually leading right now,one, it helps you develop that
(04:12):
sense of responsibility of,okay, if I'm leading, what am I
leading right now? And so thatcould be really benign and what
are we going to make for dinnertonight? Right? And so you're
leading your family or yourpartner or your friends on what
should we eat? What should wedo?
That's a leadership moment. Butthen it can be big in where do I
want to live? Or what do I wantto do? Or how do I want to
contribute to this project? Andpeople sort of accidentally make
(04:37):
themselves subordinate by way ofthe hierarchy structure when in
reality, you have access to beleading yourself and other
people at any point.
And the truth is when you startto see things that way, you
activate all those leadershipcapabilities that you're
seeking.
Adam Larson (04:58):
It's a it's a it's a concept that it's a it it
reminds I'm almost speechless.It's one of those things that,
you know, they always say wear,you know, wear dress like you
want dress where you wanna gokind of thing. And that that
that's what that what you justdescribed reminds me of. And I
feel like it's so easy to getcomfortable where you are,
(05:19):
especially when you're so usedto the hierarchical societal,
like, hey, this is how the waythings are. And you get so
compliant and get so simple.
How do you transition from, hey.I'm just gonna do my job. If I
ever get a leadership position,that's fine. But if not, I don't
care. And even if you're in thatposition, you can't even like,
you have to transition yourmindset to even think to even
(05:40):
think about going to the nextlevel.
Rachel Kourakos (05:42):
Yeah. Completely. Well, I think one of
the ways to address that is toremove this notion that, like,
leadership is separate from youright now. Right? The first
thing you have to do is not say,oh, well, like, maybe I'll
become a leader one day.
Yes, that's true if yourdefinition of a leader is when
you have that crown on yourhead. Absolutely. But I would
(06:05):
encourage you to say, Okay, howcan I think of myself as a
leader right now? Because evenif you are the most junior
person on a team and your boss'boss' boss comes to you and
says, you know, hey, Adam. Quickquestion about this thing that
you're doing.
Even if it's administrative,like, kind of, like, lower level
type of work, you have anopportunity to lead that person
(06:27):
to clarity, to understandingwhat needs to happen. So when
you look at those little momentsand say, this is a chance for me
to lead someone even if you'renot necessarily leading all the
people, but you're leadingyourself and you're leading that
one person. That's how you canstart to cultivate that sense of
leadership. So the first pieceis, are you defining leadership
(06:47):
purely as, oh, if I you know,being more senior at your
company? And I would encourageyou to get creative on is that
actually the definition.
Adam, you and I were talkingjust about your kids and your
family. You are a leader of 5little humans, plus at certain
moments, probably your partner.And at certain points, your
partner's the leader. And atcertain points, by the way, your
9 year old's the leader.
Adam Larson (07:08):
Yeah.
Rachel Kourakos (07:09):
And you're following following him. And so
when you start to kind of breakdown those rules of what
leadership actually looks like,you give yourself permission to
lead, and you give yourselfpermission to then transition to
that leadership type of roleeventually. But I also think
(07:29):
it's really important to toclarify, Adam, with you is not
everyone wants to, quote,unquote, be a leader. Some
people are happy to show upevery single day and follow, and
that's great too. But even infollowing, you're leading
yourself to follow someone else.
So you're still a leader in somecapacity.
Adam Larson (07:49):
I was just I was just thinking about that. If you
are looking at those leadershipqualities and cultivating that
in yourself, you can be youbecome a better follower for the
people who are leading you tosomewhere else. Because you
can't be a leader in everythingin your capacity in your life.
You're gonna need people tofollow behind to get certain
places because we can't doeverything on our own despite,
(08:11):
you know, what movies may tellyou and other things like that.
Rachel Kourakos (08:14):
Absolutely. And some of the best named leaders
are incredible followers. Theyknow exactly when to sit back
and let their team lead the way.They know exactly when to be
quiet and let someone junior getactivated in that moment to
lead. And so I think it'simportant to layer in that
(08:35):
fluidity of leadership, thatleadership doesn't mean I'm in
charge and I have authority andI make all the decisions.
It's actually the best leadersare really good at knowing when
to lead and when to follow andare consciously making that
decision in every interactionthat they're having.
Adam Larson (08:53):
It it requires a certain level of humility, it
seems like, to be able to stepback and say, nope. Hey. I want
you to I want you to go. And howimportant it is to so speaking
of humility, it seems likeemotions and observations, and
you can read any headlines ofwhat's happening. We don't even
need to get into that.
But you see, you know, worldleaders making decisions, and
(09:13):
you're like, is that person incharge of their emotions? You
know? Like, if you just take astep back and reflect and so
being humble enough to take astep back is is huge for anybody
because the higher you get up,the more ego that gets, and you
have to kinda fight with that.
Rachel Kourakos (09:27):
Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. Well, the number
one thing that I always work on,whether I'm working with execs,
founders, junior people, risingleaders, is self awareness. It's
really hard to change and evolveand grow if you don't have
awareness of who you are, whatyou're about, how your emotions
(09:48):
create patterns in yourunderstanding of the world, how
they influence your perspectiveon the world.
And so, you know, I love theword that you're bringing up,
humility, but it's humilitypaired with awareness. Because
the gap and I I have coachedmany a leaders who say, I really
want to be an incredible leader,and I want to do these things.
(10:10):
And then they have all thesehuge blind spots that, in their
mind, they genuinely think theyare doing the thing, but they're
not actually doing the thing.And so what I mean by that is
they'll say, oh, I, you know, Ireally care for my team, and I
wanna cultivate this culture oftrust. And then a lot of their
actions inadvertently are notaligned with trust cultivation.
(10:31):
And so step number 1 is alwaysself awareness, and sometimes
that's raw and tough selfawareness where you say you
would actually look in themirror and say, you know what?
Mentally, this is important tome, but my actions are not
aligned with it. And when you'retrying to change and evolve as a
leader, which is so required intoday's day and age with all the
(10:53):
different external factorsinfluencing businesses and
people and the way that we work,when you're trying to change as
a leader to keep up or adapt,that self awareness and that and
what I mean by self awareness isthat being in touch with your
emotions and then making aconscious choice to either let
your emotions guide you ordiffuse and make a different
(11:17):
choice and make a differentdecision once your emotions have
subsided or that ego that you'rementioning have subsided, that's
actually how you can createchange.
Adam Larson (11:29):
That is not an easy thing for anyone to look inside
oneself, to address the issuesthat you see, and be willing to
say, yeah. I was wrong or, yeah,that's not me. I it it mean,
it's even hard even the older Iget, the I mean, I find it
easier the older I get becauseI'm, you know, learning new
things. But I see peers, and I'mlike, oh, that person might need
(11:53):
some help. You know, it's Ithink it's it's really painful
to see on the other side, notthat I'm claim I'm completely
self aware, but I've learned alot through my life experiences.
And when I notice somebody elsewho isn't there yet, I'm like,
oh. But how do you like, sosituation. Let's say you're at
work and somebody just goes off.You're like, wow. That person
(12:14):
must be having a bad day, orwhat's going on with that
person?
You know, if you're just a peer,like, is that something you you
say, hey. Are you okay? Like,what's the what's the what's a
good response, especially in aworkplace? Because it's hard
because you don't wanna get insomebody's business. People have
their own things going on.
But you you also care for otherstoo.
Rachel Kourakos (12:31):
Yeah. Absolutely. So there's a few
things that I wanna acknowledgein what you just said. So the
first is the more self aware youbecome, which is an exercise and
I know in corporate settings,sometimes that's where it
doesn't land, but, like, it's anexercise of consciousness.
Right?
So as you become a moreconscious being, you are going
to become hyperaware andvigilant of the consciousness of
(12:53):
other people. So as you do thework to raise your self
awareness, you start to then seeother people who have maybe not
done that same work or who arenot conscious beings, and it
becomes really apparent on,like, where they are in their
consciousness. And so that's areally normal thing to have
happen. And I think that what'simportant when that does happen
(13:16):
is to catch yourself if you arejudging other people in that
moment, when you're like, Oh,I've done the work. I understand
these things.
I see exactly that person's egokicking in. But are you then in
judgment for where they are? Andthe reason that that's important
is to answer your question ofhow do you navigate and how do
you handle it when you see oneof your peers, one of your
colleagues kicking off aboutsomething or responding in a way
(13:39):
that maybe isn't as professionalor upholding the culture of the
organization. The first thingthat's really important is, am I
in judgment right now? Am Ijudging this person for their
reaction?
If the answer is yes, you havean awareness loop, and you have
an you have an opportunity tosit with yourself and the
emotions that are coming up tocultivate your self awareness so
(14:01):
that you can release some ofthat judgment so that you can
invite in curiosity. So I alwayssay curiosity is the antidote to
judgment.
Adam Larson (14:10):
Okay.
Rachel Kourakos (14:11):
If you're in judgment, the question then
becomes how can I get curious?So, Adam, you actually naturally
did this where you said, Maybethis person's having a bad day.
Are they okay? Right? So younaturally went to curiosity.
But sometimes in the heat of themoment, that's hard to access.
You're gonna be like, oh, thatperson's a jerk. That person's
like, really? What? Like, I'mback off.
Right? You'll be in judgment. Soit's normal to be in judgment.
(14:32):
Right? Because our emotions aregonna kick in in response to an
emotional trigger by someoneelse.
But then what you wanna do issit with yourself to get to
curiosity. Then what you wannaacknowledge is how can I either
hold space for this person,which for anyone listening or
watching who doesn't know whatthat means, that means how can I
(14:53):
actually have a conversationwith this person with an
intention of letting them ventor process or talk? That's what
holding space is, where it'slike, can I get some room to
hear what's going on? So youhave to decide if you can hold
space for someone or not, andthat starts with your ability to
be curious, be open to help thatperson. If you feel like you
(15:15):
can't be and you're gonna beaggressive or judgmental,
probably a good one to walk awayfor some time until you've
cooled off and then feel likeyou can have that conversation.
But here's the thing that Iactually really wanna talk
about, Adam, is in professionalsettings, and I see this across
so many organizations despitethem having amazing individual
(15:36):
people. But oftentimes, I haveno idea where this came in from,
but in professional settings, weput up all these guardrails and
rules of how emotion how we'resupposed to have emotional
interactions with each other andwhat is okay to do or not okay
to do. Right? So if you were ata friend's party and someone
seemed upset, you would have noissue. You'd be like, of course
(15:58):
I'm going to go say, 'Are youokay?' Do you want to go for a
walk?
Do you want to talk? If it wasone of your friends, you would
be like, if I saw my friendfreak out or be upset about
something, I would not evenquestion it. But in a
professional setting, whenyou're sitting with your peer,
sometimes you'll say, like, Idon't it's not really my
business. Like, do like, maybethere's something personal going
on. And to me, I'm like, whathas gone on in the professional
(16:20):
setting, and I'm using airquotes right now, that has
pushed us to forget to be reallyhuman?
And my my aunt always says, ifyou have something nice to say
or do, always do it. And then ifthe person doesn't wanna talk
about it, let them say, youknow, it's personal. I don't
really feel like talking aboutit. Great. That's totally okay
(16:42):
if they have a boundary thatthey don't wanna cross with a
professional colleague.
But if you are concerned andyou're saying, you know, is this
person okay? Always ask. Always,always, always ask. And by the
way, for those of you who arelistening or watching who are
more junior, the senior people,the execs, are humans. They also
have all of the emotions.
(17:04):
I have coached one of the mosteye opening things in coaching
over 40 execs over the lastcouple years has been that some
of them are in their forties,fifties, sixties, and they feel
the exact same things that theclients that I'm coaching who
are in their twenties arefeeling. And it it translates
differently that, like, thecontext of why they're feeling
that way is completelydifferent, but it's the same
(17:26):
human emotion. And so I thinkit's so important that you
check-in with with yourself, amI in judgment or curiosity? You
then say, can I hold space forthis person? You then remember
to be a human, to just be ahuman.
The same way in New York City,I've seen someone crying on the
(17:48):
street and I have said, Hi,stranger. Are you okay?
Adam Larson (17:52):
Yeah.
Rachel Kourakos (17:53):
And someone has given me a hug. They're like,
Can I have a hug? And I'm like,Yes. You can have a hug. And
then that's the end of theengagement because that's what
it means to be human.
And we really we write theserules that make us forget that
every person's human andeveryone just wants to be cared
for in different ways. And ifthey don't, they'll tell you,
and that's okay.
Adam Larson (18:12):
Yeah. I I really like that approach. You know,
everything that you said wasreally great, reframing it and
remembering to look at yourself,say, what what am I doing? Why
am I having these thoughts? Butit all comes back around to
something, you know, that youand I've talked about for is
remembering that it's not aboutyou.
So you see that person andthey're having that struggle
(18:32):
instead of, you know, you'relike, I wanna go talk to them.
Well, it's not about you. 1st,look at yourself, look at your
judgment, you know. Then if ifit goes to curiosity and then
there's creative moment for thatspace, still it's not about you
and you're respecting theirboundaries and making sure that
you're creating that safemoment. Because if they don't
wanna talk to you, they don'twanna talk to you.
If you've never talked to thatperson in your whole life, you
know, is that the first timethat you wanna say, hey, are you
(18:53):
okay? Like, hey, you've nevertalked to me before. But it
could be an open moment like theperson on the street like you
were saying. But it'sremembering that's not about
you.
Rachel Kourakos (19:01):
Absolutely, Adam. And if I were to die on a
hill in over the last few years,it would be that message of it's
not about you ever. It's alwaysabout the person and their
circumstances and theirsituation. They might throw it
out on you. Like, sometimes theymight emotionally vomit on you
by accident.
(19:21):
But if you as a person can bringthat consciousness and instead
of being like, why are theyyelling at me or why are they
mad at me? And say, hold on.Okay. This feels like it's about
me, so it might be a little bit.But if it weren't about me and I
were really just listening towhat this person is
communicating, what is it reallyabout?
Adam Larson (19:44):
So I'll
Rachel Kourakos (19:44):
give you example. Let's say you work on a
project. You then are presentingit to a couple of senior
leaders, and you've been workingon the project for a couple
months, presenting it to acouple of senior leaders, and
you get feedback on the project,and it's not great. It's this
isn't really the strategicdirection we wanted to go. This
is, you know, not capturing alot of things that we think are
really important.
(20:06):
The not conscious person, thenot conscious leader would say,
oh, no. I'm not good enough. Iworked so hard, and it wasn't
what they wanted. I don't know.You know, I can't I'm not
effective at my job.
I didn't perform. Right? Whichis all a normal thing to have go
through someone's mind, wherethey make it all about them.
(20:27):
Side note, there's beautifulwork to do on that in
partnership with coaches andprofessionals and people to work
through that sense of self. Butwhat happens is when someone
goes into that kind of thinking,they sort of miss all the juicy
information that they'regathering from their leaders,
from the people that they'regathering feedback from.
(20:49):
And what happens is they get sokind of I'm saying they we
because if this happens toeveryone. We get so caught up in
managing our own hearts and ourown emotions and reaction to
feeling disappointed on theoutcome that we forget to get
curious. We forget to then say,They're giving me a lot of
really good info that can helpme address core sorry, help me
(21:11):
change course or address what'sgoing on. But we miss the
opportunity to do that becausewe're so busy making it about
ourselves. So it's seldom thatthose people are saying, you as
a human are not good enough.
Right? Like, it's that's veryrare that that's what's actually
being communicated. So if that'snot what they're trying to
communicate, what are theytrying to communicate? So in
(21:35):
cultivating that ability to leadyourself and lead others and not
make it about you, you have tosay, okay. This is painful.
This is what it sounds like.It's, I feel not good enough.
I'm upset. I worked really hardon this. Okay.
Hold on. Rachel, this isn'tabout you right now. It's not
about you. We can deal with thatafter. If it's not about me,
what is this about?
(21:55):
Oh, this person said that wemissed looping in a team that
really needs to be giving input.Okay. Great. Let me ask a
follow-up question on that. Whatwhat do we need to talk about
with this team?
Why did you why do you thinkthat they should be included? I
hadn't thought about that.Beautiful. You learn. Okay.
This person said this thing.Beautiful. You learn. And this
isn't about I just wanna be soabundantly clear. This is not a
(22:18):
shove your emotions under therug.
This is not about removingemotion. I am a big believer
that the best leaders carry aton of emotion in everything
that they're doing, but they arebringing in intentional emotion,
and they understand what is kickstarting different patterns in
themselves and can work with it.So while you might still have
that internal narrative of beingupset, you then say, Ah, okay.
(22:42):
So this negative feedback isjust triggering my performance
desires and my desire toachieve. I know that that's
important to me.
It's okay that this feels thisway, and that's normal. And let
me just not put it aside, butput it down next to me because
I'm sitting in front of a groupof people who are trying to help
me achieve my goal by way oftheir feedback. And so I'm
(23:06):
giving that example, Adam,because it we get we all get so
stuck in making about uspersonally, and it's rarely
about that. It's rarely aboutthat. And when you're not paying
attention in that way, you'regonna miss what's being
communicated.
(23:26):
So I'll give one other totallyseparate example.
Adam Larson (23:29):
Okay.
Rachel Kourakos (23:31):
After dinner, you and your partner or your
roommate have dishes to do.You're annoyed because your
roommate or partner hasn't donethe dishes the last couple of
nights. And you look at yourpartner and you say, Hey. It's
your turn to do the dishes, andyou bring all this sass in. Or,
Yes, exactly.
(23:51):
Please, it's your turn to do thedishes. Go do it. But, really,
there's probably a little moreaggressive words in there. Maybe
you're really fired up. Younever do anything.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah. The receiver in the
nonconscious version is likelygoing to be like, well, I did
the dishes last week, and I didthe blah blah blah. You know,
they'll go into and play intothat kind of energy loop.
Whereas as as the receiver, ifyou can say, this person has a
(24:15):
need that's not being met, andthe need is they need to feel
cared for right now. And youthen respond saying, you know
what?
You're right. I didn't do thedishes the last 3 nights, and I
can tell it's important to you.Let me come do them right now.
You are gonna cut off a 20minute back and forth. That
(24:37):
second that example I'm givingyou, that you're you're saying,
this isn't about me.
They're just annoyed with me.
Adam Larson (24:42):
Yeah.
Rachel Kourakos (24:43):
They have a need that's not being met. What
is that need? Let me go meetthat need. And it's coming from
an open and gentle place whereyou're willing to be like, oh, I
don't like what they said.Actually, I did do the dishes
too.
Like, you can play that game.You can play that game, but when
you're thinking about how youinteract with people and how you
(25:05):
the energy that kind of flowsbetween you and another person,
whether it's at work or at home,if you cannot make it about you
and really say, well, what isthis person really communicating
right now? Oftentimes, you'regonna have the key to what's
going on. Yeah. And this is truein negotiation.
This is true in feedback. Thisis true in, you know, cross
(25:27):
functional dynamics, but weforget. We make it all about us.
Adam Larson (25:32):
Wow. As you were talking, it made me think, like,
person who's talking to youneeds to be a good communicator,
then you need to be a goodlistener. But it's not just
listening. It's listening withself awareness. Yes.
Right?
Rachel Kourakos (25:46):
Yes. It's listening with self awareness.
But the one thing I'm gonnatweak on what you just said
Mhmm. They don't need to be agood communicator. They can
express it however they want toexpress it.
You have to be willing to listenwith self awareness and a desire
to listen to what's not beingsaid or to what's being said
under the surface and not playin the egoic component of it.
And so what I mean by that is ifsomeone says, You haven't done
(26:10):
the effing dishes, and I'm madat you, and you never meet my
needs, right, they're justcommunicating from a hurt ego.
It will trigger your ego becauseyou are human. Right? That's if
someone's yelling at you orannoyed with you, you're
automatically gonna go intodefense.
Right? Because you have survivalinstincts and an ego that drives
a lot of things.
Adam Larson (26:29):
Mhmm.
Rachel Kourakos (26:30):
And so that self awareness that we're
talking about is having theability to see your ego being
like, that's that's making memad. I can feel it. I don't like
why I have this person speakingto me, and say, but that's not
the point. Let it go. Like, putit aside for a second.
What is the point? This personjust wants me to help. Okay. I
(26:51):
can do that. And that's how youalso start to break down, like,
cycles.
And we're talking in extremes.Sometimes this can be in non
extreme moments. It can justsay, oh, you know, I thought we
were meeting at this time, andyou pushed it out and, you know,
like, it can be it doesn't haveto be in aggressive extreme
moments, but everyone is alwayscommunicating something deeper
(27:12):
and bigger than what you thinkthey're communicating. And if
you can work to understandyourself and your ego, which is
always gonna be part of you ButI think of it, honestly, I think
of it, Adam, as you have yourheart, which is, like, who you
are, and then you have bubblewrap around your heart. And each
one of those bubbles on the onthe bubble wrap is a is a belief
(27:34):
you have that is driven by yourego.
That bubble wrap is your ego.And you have life experiences
that make you wrap your hearttighter and tighter to keep it
safe with a ton of bubble wrap.And most people only operate
from their bubble wrap becausethey're so afraid of what would
happen if we lead from ourheart.
Adam Larson (27:55):
Yeah.
Rachel Kourakos (27:56):
And to me, self awareness, self understanding,
like, all of that is looking atyour bubble wrap and then
finding ways to pop a couple ofthe bubbles because they're no
longer needed. They're fromchildhood stuff. They're from
different experiences thataren't necessarily relevant
today, and try to open up andunwrap so that you are a heart
(28:18):
forward leader. That is notjust, you know, rainbows and
sunshine, but, like, reallyleading with passion and purpose
and connection and wanting tosupport so that you can
cultivate a better world. I meanI mean, it gets it gets big.
Like, it's little and big. It'sto cultivate a better world and
(28:41):
better working dynamics andteams that can accomplish more
than you ever dreamed of. But ifyou're leading from your bubble
wrap, from your ego, it's reallyhard to do because you activate
everyone else's ego.
Adam Larson (28:54):
You're you're leading from a place of fear at
that point.
Rachel Kourakos (28:57):
Exactly. Exactly. Because your ego is
just afraid. They just wannakeep it just wants to keep you
safe. But, you know, like Isaid, curiosity is the antidote
to judgment.
Love is the antidote to fear.You can't be in love and in fear
at the same time. Is one or theother driving that? And so as
leaders, can you be loving andcurious? And I know I'm using
(29:19):
language that's not typical incorporate settings, but I have
no idea why we've lost it.
Adam Larson (29:23):
Yeah.
Rachel Kourakos (29:24):
No idea why we don't bring that in. And some of
the most powerful leaders are Imean, this is why you hear
people meditating, going onretreats, going with coaches,
like, all this stuff. There'sthis massive swing towards
people going to therapy. Like,everyone's trying to reconnect
and get back in touch with thattruer self because our society
has sort of built over the lastdecades this robotic version of
(29:48):
humans that, honestly, is notnot being accepted and certainly
not being accepted by Gen z. Ican tell you that much.
Adam Larson (29:56):
And if you look at how organizations are set up,
they're not set up to be a placeof, you know, zen calm thinking,
and they're very fast paced.Some places are very high
energy, high-tech, like, highstakes kind of places. How do
you apply these principles inthose in these into modern
settings? Because a lot ofplaces are understaffed and
(30:16):
people are overworked. Andunless you're the high up person
who has time to go on their Zenretreat, and you're like a like
a single person working, youknow, with 3 kids and you're
trying to make ends meet and youas soon as you leave work,
you're doing this and doingthat.
Yeah. Like, how do you applythese principles in those
moments
Rachel Kourakos (30:32):
when you
Adam Larson (30:32):
feel like you have no time?
Rachel Kourakos (30:34):
Absolutely. It's such a good question, Adam.
And it's something that mostpeople struggle with. Right?
It's it's all well and good whenwe're sitting practicing yoga on
a beach in Costa Rica to belike, yes.
I'm going to live this beautifulzed life. So there's a couple
things to think about. One is isto anchor on who do you wanna be
every day. Very simple. Who do Iwanna be today?
(30:55):
How do I wanna feel? Everymorning, I ask myself 3
questions. Who do I wanna betoday? How do I wanna feel? And
where can I create some magic?
And for me, that helps me anchorin today, presence. Do I have
goals and ambitions and thinkdreams? Absolutely. But it's
really hard to achieve thosedreams when you're in a constant
(31:17):
stress state.
Adam Larson (31:18):
Yeah.
Rachel Kourakos (31:19):
Second thing is whatever form of access you have
to doing some of the work onyourself, whether that's via
books, coaches, therapists,journaling, whatever, ever
there's the whole scale of waysto raise your awareness. But
doing that deeper work to reallyunderstand, oh, this is just
(31:42):
kicking in my my fear of, like,not being smart enough. Oh, this
is just kicking in my fear ofnot being included. Oh, okay.
The world becomes a bit lighterbecause you no longer are that
thing.
You work with that thing. Soit's the difference between
being, like, I am anger versus Ifeel angry. It's really hard to
(32:02):
do that until you actuallyunderstand yourself. And the
reason that that's important,and and and I again, I'll harp
on this. Like, it all startswith that self awareness is if
you want things to be different,you have to be aware of what
you're trying to change, andthen you have to have a
willingness of wanting to changethat thing.
And so when you're trying tomanage it all, first start with
(32:25):
self awareness. Really work tounderstand yourself so that you
can be more conscious andpresent in all the different
things that you're trying tomanage at once. And then I think
the 3rd piece is is reallyadopting that mindset of I am
already a leader, and I'm eitherleading myself or leading
someone else. And so am Ileading in a way that actually
(32:47):
cultivates the life and theexperience that I wanna have at
that, like, bigger existentiallevel, or am I just the winds of
all the things around me? And ifyou feel the latter, which is so
normal, especially if you'remanaging an intense job, kids,
lots of different things,whether you are doing that or on
the precipice of that, it'sabout bringing that
intentionality and makingchoices that support you in
(33:12):
living how you want to live.
And I think one final thing I'llsay on this without going too
deep into this topic, whichprobably for another time, Adam.
Adam Larson (33:19):
Mhmm.
Rachel Kourakos (33:20):
But it's like when I work with people and they
feel very much, like, at thewhim or kind of, like, victims
to their own life, where they'resaying, you know, I have a job,
and I I have my kids. I have allthese things going on, and, you
know, it's all crazy, and it'syou know, I can't manage it all.
One of the stress tests I do,and I wouldn't to be clear, I'm
(33:41):
like a certified trained coach,so I can do this very
intentionally and hold the spacewith people in doing this. But
one of the stress tests I'll do,I'll say, so quit. And someone
will either be like, I can't dothat.
No. No. No. I would never quit.But then we understand, okay.
You are choosing to be at thisplace then. So if you're
(34:03):
choosing it, why are youchoosing it? What are you trying
to accomplish? And so theundertone of, like, stress
testing is every single area ofour life, both in the things we
do, the things we think, thethings we feel, is a choice. You
are always making a conscious orsubconscious choice.
(34:25):
And so when you feel the victim,the way to flip that around is,
okay. I'm actually choosing allof this right now. Why? And
that's when you start to do someof the work. Okay.
Well, I'm choosing this becausethis gives me security. Alright.
So security is important to me.There's a lot of different
avenues to security. Okay.
(34:47):
You know, I had someone who wasreally miserable in their
partnership, and I said, so geta divorce. And the person said,
that feels good. I've also hadother people where I've said, so
break up with them, and they'relike, no, I would never do that.
Okay. Then we understand you arechoosing this, and if you are
(35:08):
choosing this, why and how canwe choose differently or create
another version of it?
And so I think and I'm I'm notanswering your question of,
like, the how do how do youmanage it all, but to me, that
becomes a lot simpler when youstart to shift your mindset and
your heart set and your soul setto take that deep ownership over
(35:30):
your life and your life'sexperiences. Because once you've
done that, the the how tobecomes a lot easier because
you're a lot more aware ofwhat's going on, and it's no
longer a how to guide. Like,it's more about, okay, which
parts and why, and, okay, I seethis, and I see that this is the
(35:51):
part that needs to change inorder for me to be more present
and more self aware. But you arealways choosing how you react to
things. You are always choosingyour perspective.
It might not feel conscious, butif you feel like a victim,
you're choosing to be a victim.And when I say that to people,
they're like, no. No. I'm not.I'm like, you are.
(36:12):
And this isn't all about, like,tough love, but it's about
breaking that cycle of thinkingthat allows someone to then take
action against the things thatthey wanna change.
Adam Larson (36:24):
And change is not easy and it's painful. And I
think that's why a lot of peoplehaven't done the work to be
where we're talking about isbecause it's not, okay. Here's
your 5 step process and it's thesame way it works for every
single person. It doesn't workthat way. Yeah.
Rachel Kourakos (36:44):
Well, I think I'm gonna catch you, Adam, on
it.
Adam Larson (36:48):
Okay.
Rachel Kourakos (36:48):
Change can be hard. Change can be painful.
Adam Larson (36:54):
Okay.
Rachel Kourakos (36:55):
And what I did there was I shifted some of the
language in your belief, becauseif you say change is hard and
change is painful, of coursethat's how you're gonna
experience it, always. True. Butif you say it can be hard, but
it can be easy, it can bepainless, and it's all about how
you see change. And so and solisten. I'm a transition coach.
(37:20):
Like, change is the name of mygame. I love change. And it does
bring up challenges sometimesbecause it forces you to reckon
with your sense of self, yourbeliefs about the world. So it's
not that it's all willy nillyand, you know, change is like
rah rah, even though sometimes Ithink change is rah rah, but
it's kind of one of thebeautiful parts about life. And
(37:41):
if you can see it that way, and,you know, sometimes when I'm
going through a big change ortransition and it feels painful,
which, by the way, it doessometimes, the the narrative I
have is like, oh, we're just init.
We're in it, and we always comeout of it, and this is good. You
know what I say to myselfsometimes? This is just gonna be
a story in your book one day.Even when you're, like, in it
and it's horrible, and you'relike, oh, man. This is really
(38:02):
tough.
I I think, like, this is justgonna be one of those stories.
Because in everything that hasfelt hard in my life and even in
my client's life, they come outof it being like, woah. I
learned a lot.
Adam Larson (38:14):
Mhmm. So I appreciate you catching me on
that. Because as soon as yousaid that, my mind was, like,
wait. There have been changesthat haven't been so that
haven't been hard. There havebeen changes.
So it's, like, you have torethink. Because, automatic,
when you think change, you thinkof the most extreme hardest
thing you went through. But evenjust switching from this doctor
to this doctor, that's a change.That's a transition that you
(38:37):
have to make. And that can be avery simple process if the
systems talk to each other.
And if they don't, then yougotta fill up paperwork, and
it's it's annoying, and it'sfrustrating. But you get it
done, and once you're done, youknow how to do it. Yeah. You
know? So it's it it you everynot everything is the extreme
moment.
Rachel Kourakos (38:52):
Right. And if you and and the way that you
talk to yourself about thesethings will have a direct impact
on how you experience it. So Iwas with some friends when we
were on a trip, and we were in amoment of intense logistics
where just, like, everything wassort of not going well.
Announcer (39:10):
Mhmm.
Rachel Kourakos (39:11):
And one of my friends looked at me and goes,
we're having fun. Right? And Iwas like, yes. We're having fun.
And then everyone was like,we're having fun.
We're having fun. And we werejoking because we were not
having fun.
Adam Larson (39:22):
Yeah.
Rachel Kourakos (39:23):
But then we got a little bit silly with it, and
then we started to have somefun.
Adam Larson (39:28):
Mhmm.
Rachel Kourakos (39:29):
With change, with things that feel hard, you
like, you can say, we're havingfun. Or you can say, this change
is gonna be easy despite it,like, not. You know you know
you're about to endeavor insomething big, but bring
playfulness into it. Bring this,like, well, what if I thought
this was gonna be easier than Ithought? What if this is better
than I thought?
(39:50):
Because if you can flirt withthat, like, what if, an
alternative reality that's notpure negative, you then can
start to create it. I wascoaching a client who, they were
going through a breakup, and,like, a week after they broke up
(40:11):
with their partner, they'relike, I don't really feel that
sad, and I feel like I shouldfeel sad. I was like, if you
don't feel sad, don't feel sad.That person just had an
expectation that it had to besad. They didn't feel sad.
That's great. So if you're evergonna say this is gonna be
(40:33):
really hard, I want you andanyone who's listening to flirt
with the idea of, like, this isgonna be really easy, and you
don't have to believe it. Again,I'm not trying to put, like,
rainbows and sunshine, but ifyou can mentally your mind what
makes us human is our ability toimagine. So if you're gonna
imagine, why are you imaginingthe worst possible outcome? You
are choosing that.
You're choosing to imagine theworst possible outcome. So if
(40:55):
you're if you're if you'rechoosing it, why wouldn't you
imagine that it's better thanyou think? Why wouldn't you
imagine that it could be easierthan you think? Because if you
imagine in that way, your mindand your heart, everything's
gonna anchor towards how can Icreate that versus when you're
like, this is gonna be reallybad, and then you put it off and
you avoid, you're gonnasubconsciously create the bad
(41:17):
version? And it doesn't mean itends up being amazing.
It still might be you might say,I imagine the good, and this is
really bad. Like, this was worsethan I thought. Mhmm. And that's
okay, But at least you wouldthen have an alternative reality
that is possible, that will beguiding you to work with the
(41:40):
part that feels hard and bad.And, by the way, hard and bad is
not necessarily a bad thing.
That's a mindset. Pain, beingsad, like, those emotions, they
all have so much wisdom in them.But most people are so afraid to
feel them that they cut it off,and then they just kinda get in
this stagnant energetic loop.
Adam Larson (41:58):
Mhmm. They really could. And we could probably
talk for another hour about allthese grief and grieving things.
So
Rachel Kourakos (42:04):
Yeah.
Adam Larson (42:05):
That's for another time. Rachel, thank you so much
for coming on. This is awonderful conversation. I really
hope everybody got a lot fromit, and, it was just a real
pleasure chatting with youtoday.
Rachel Kourakos (42:14):
Likewise, Adam. Thank you so much for having me.
It was really great speakingwith you about this.
Announcer (42:21):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.imanet.org.
Welcome to Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam Larson.
Today, I'm thrilled to be joinedby the insightful Rachel
Kourakos. Rachel is a transitionand leadership coach at Rachel
Kourakos Coaching andConsulting, where she works with
individuals and organizations tohelp empower people in their
individual journey. Today,Rachel shares her insights on
mastering human interactions,understanding personal
(00:42):
boundaries, and the importanceof self awareness in the
personal and professionalsetting.
We'll discuss how emotionalintelligence can reduce
misunderstandings and aideffective leadership. Rachel
offers a unique perspective onembracing change playfully and
challenges eliminatingnarratives that often hold us
back. Join us as Rachel providespractical advice on leading with
authenticity, using empathy andcuriosity to build genuine
(01:05):
connections, and navigatinglife's transitions with
intention. This episode ispacked with wisdom to help you
grow and thrive. So grab yourheadphones and tune in.
Well, Rachel, thank you so muchfor coming on the podcast. We're
really excited to have you heretalking about, becoming a better
(01:26):
leader by knowing yourself. Andas we've been chatting off and
on, on leading up to thisconversation, there's one thing
you keep saying that everybody'sa leader. And the way society
has things broken down is veryhierarchical, and because of,
you know, historically, youcould probably go into a whole
speech about why the system'sset up that way. But not
everybody necessarily agreeswith that.
(01:46):
Can you can we talk a little bitmore about that?
Rachel Kourakos (01:48):
Yeah. Absolutely. Well, it's so nice
to be here, Adam. I'm so excitedto talk to you about this topic.
And I think, you know, as we'vespoken, when we think about
leadership, there's one versionof it that is all about the
hierarchy.
The, you know, we come in order,and as you said, society sets
things up to create hierarchythat allows us to really
understand where we fall in thesocial construct, how we show
(02:12):
up, the type of work that we do,especially when you're working
at large organizations, and ithelps guide us in understanding
the roles and responsibilitiesthat we have.
Adam Larson (02:21):
Mhmm.
Rachel Kourakos (02:21):
However, I wholeheartedly believe that
being a leader is actually anattitude. It's a perspective.
It's a way that you understandyourself and how you relate to
the world around you thateveryone has access to. And the
mistake that I see people makeis they sort of wait until
someone says, okay. Now, Adam,you are the leader.
(02:42):
Now you are the senior person inorder to then activate that part
of themselves. And the the ironyof that is is you don't become a
leader when someone puts thecrown on your head and says, now
you are a manager. Now you are aleader. Oftentimes, what's
required is you have to becultivating that sense of
leadership, and we'll talk aboutwhat I mean by that, well before
(03:03):
you are actually given thatcrown. And so the mistake that I
mentioned that people make isthey say, okay.
Well, once I get thatrecognition or once I get that
acknowledgment as a leader, Iwill then be showcasing all of
these different attributes,excuse me, attributes, and, it
will help me build my sense ofself and my sense sense of
confidence once I have thatthing. When, actually, when I'm
(03:27):
working with people and coachingleaders, whether they're execs
or rising execs, a lot of thework that we're doing is how can
you channel that sense ofleadership and confidence
beforehand so that when you doget that crown, so to speak,
it's already a natural thingthat's flowing. It's not a
before and after in that moment.It's the before before before,
and then you get thatrecognition and it's and, of
(03:49):
course, it's happening. And sowhen I say everyone is already a
leader, what I'm encouragingpeople to to recognize in
themselves is every day ineverything you're doing, in
every conversation, in everydecision, you are either leading
yourself or someone else.
And when you start to seeyourself in that way that, oh,
I'm actually leading right now,one, it helps you develop that
(04:12):
sense of responsibility of,okay, if I'm leading, what am I
leading right now? And so thatcould be really benign and what
are we going to make for dinnertonight? Right? And so you're
leading your family or yourpartner or your friends on what
should we eat? What should wedo?
That's a leadership moment. Butthen it can be big in where do I
want to live? Or what do I wantto do? Or how do I want to
contribute to this project? Andpeople sort of accidentally make
(04:37):
themselves subordinate by way ofthe hierarchy structure when in
reality, you have access to beleading yourself and other
people at any point.
And the truth is when you startto see things that way, you
activate all those leadershipcapabilities that you're
seeking.
Adam Larson (04:58):
It's a it's a it's a concept that it's a it it
reminds I'm almost speechless.It's one of those things that,
you know, they always say wear,you know, wear dress like you
want dress where you wanna gokind of thing. And that that
that's what that what you justdescribed reminds me of. And I
feel like it's so easy to getcomfortable where you are,
(05:19):
especially when you're so usedto the hierarchical societal,
like, hey, this is how the waythings are. And you get so
compliant and get so simple.
How do you transition from, hey.I'm just gonna do my job. If I
ever get a leadership position,that's fine. But if not, I don't
care. And even if you're in thatposition, you can't even like,
you have to transition yourmindset to even think to even
(05:40):
think about going to the nextlevel.
Rachel Kourakos (05:42):
Yeah. Completely. Well, I think one of
the ways to address that is toremove this notion that, like,
leadership is separate from youright now. Right? The first
thing you have to do is not say,oh, well, like, maybe I'll
become a leader one day.
Yes, that's true if yourdefinition of a leader is when
you have that crown on yourhead. Absolutely. But I would
(06:05):
encourage you to say, Okay, howcan I think of myself as a
leader right now? Because evenif you are the most junior
person on a team and your boss'boss' boss comes to you and
says, you know, hey, Adam. Quickquestion about this thing that
you're doing.
Even if it's administrative,like, kind of, like, lower level
type of work, you have anopportunity to lead that person
(06:27):
to clarity, to understandingwhat needs to happen. So when
you look at those little momentsand say, this is a chance for me
to lead someone even if you'renot necessarily leading all the
people, but you're leadingyourself and you're leading that
one person. That's how you canstart to cultivate that sense of
leadership. So the first pieceis, are you defining leadership
(06:47):
purely as, oh, if I you know,being more senior at your
company? And I would encourageyou to get creative on is that
actually the definition.
Adam, you and I were talkingjust about your kids and your
family. You are a leader of 5little humans, plus at certain
moments, probably your partner.And at certain points, your
partner's the leader. And atcertain points, by the way, your
9 year old's the leader.
Adam Larson (07:08):
Yeah.
Rachel Kourakos (07:09):
And you're following following him. And so
when you start to kind of breakdown those rules of what
leadership actually looks like,you give yourself permission to
lead, and you give yourselfpermission to then transition to
that leadership type of roleeventually. But I also think
(07:29):
it's really important to toclarify, Adam, with you is not
everyone wants to, quote,unquote, be a leader. Some
people are happy to show upevery single day and follow, and
that's great too. But even infollowing, you're leading
yourself to follow someone else.
So you're still a leader in somecapacity.
Adam Larson (07:49):
I was just I was just thinking about that. If you
are looking at those leadershipqualities and cultivating that
in yourself, you can be youbecome a better follower for the
people who are leading you tosomewhere else. Because you
can't be a leader in everythingin your capacity in your life.
You're gonna need people tofollow behind to get certain
places because we can't doeverything on our own despite,
(08:11):
you know, what movies may tellyou and other things like that.
Rachel Kourakos (08:14):
Absolutely. And some of the best named leaders
are incredible followers. Theyknow exactly when to sit back
and let their team lead the way.They know exactly when to be
quiet and let someone junior getactivated in that moment to
lead. And so I think it'simportant to layer in that
(08:35):
fluidity of leadership, thatleadership doesn't mean I'm in
charge and I have authority andI make all the decisions.
It's actually the best leadersare really good at knowing when
to lead and when to follow andare consciously making that
decision in every interactionthat they're having.
Adam Larson (08:53):
It it requires a certain level of humility, it
seems like, to be able to stepback and say, nope. Hey. I want
you to I want you to go. And howimportant it is to so speaking
of humility, it seems likeemotions and observations, and
you can read any headlines ofwhat's happening. We don't even
need to get into that.
But you see, you know, worldleaders making decisions, and
(09:13):
you're like, is that person incharge of their emotions? You
know? Like, if you just take astep back and reflect and so
being humble enough to take astep back is is huge for anybody
because the higher you get up,the more ego that gets, and you
have to kinda fight with that.
Rachel Kourakos (09:27):
Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. Well, the number
one thing that I always work on,whether I'm working with execs,
founders, junior people, risingleaders, is self awareness. It's
really hard to change and evolveand grow if you don't have
awareness of who you are, whatyou're about, how your emotions
(09:48):
create patterns in yourunderstanding of the world, how
they influence your perspectiveon the world.
And so, you know, I love theword that you're bringing up,
humility, but it's humilitypaired with awareness. Because
the gap and I I have coachedmany a leaders who say, I really
want to be an incredible leader,and I want to do these things.
(10:10):
And then they have all thesehuge blind spots that, in their
mind, they genuinely think theyare doing the thing, but they're
not actually doing the thing.And so what I mean by that is
they'll say, oh, I, you know, Ireally care for my team, and I
wanna cultivate this culture oftrust. And then a lot of their
actions inadvertently are notaligned with trust cultivation.
(10:31):
And so step number 1 is alwaysself awareness, and sometimes
that's raw and tough selfawareness where you say you
would actually look in themirror and say, you know what?
Mentally, this is important tome, but my actions are not
aligned with it. And when you'retrying to change and evolve as a
leader, which is so required intoday's day and age with all the
(10:53):
different external factorsinfluencing businesses and
people and the way that we work,when you're trying to change as
a leader to keep up or adapt,that self awareness and that and
what I mean by self awareness isthat being in touch with your
emotions and then making aconscious choice to either let
your emotions guide you ordiffuse and make a different
(11:17):
choice and make a differentdecision once your emotions have
subsided or that ego that you'rementioning have subsided, that's
actually how you can createchange.
Adam Larson (11:29):
That is not an easy thing for anyone to look inside
oneself, to address the issuesthat you see, and be willing to
say, yeah. I was wrong or, yeah,that's not me. I it it mean,
it's even hard even the older Iget, the I mean, I find it
easier the older I get becauseI'm, you know, learning new
things. But I see peers, and I'mlike, oh, that person might need
(11:53):
some help. You know, it's Ithink it's it's really painful
to see on the other side, notthat I'm claim I'm completely
self aware, but I've learned alot through my life experiences.
And when I notice somebody elsewho isn't there yet, I'm like,
oh. But how do you like, sosituation. Let's say you're at
work and somebody just goes off.You're like, wow. That person
(12:14):
must be having a bad day, orwhat's going on with that
person?
You know, if you're just a peer,like, is that something you you
say, hey. Are you okay? Like,what's the what's the what's a
good response, especially in aworkplace? Because it's hard
because you don't wanna get insomebody's business. People have
their own things going on.
But you you also care for otherstoo.
Rachel Kourakos (12:31):
Yeah. Absolutely. So there's a few
things that I wanna acknowledgein what you just said. So the
first is the more self aware youbecome, which is an exercise and
I know in corporate settings,sometimes that's where it
doesn't land, but, like, it's anexercise of consciousness.
Right?
So as you become a moreconscious being, you are going
to become hyperaware andvigilant of the consciousness of
(12:53):
other people. So as you do thework to raise your self
awareness, you start to then seeother people who have maybe not
done that same work or who arenot conscious beings, and it
becomes really apparent on,like, where they are in their
consciousness. And so that's areally normal thing to have
happen. And I think that what'simportant when that does happen
(13:16):
is to catch yourself if you arejudging other people in that
moment, when you're like, Oh,I've done the work. I understand
these things.
I see exactly that person's egokicking in. But are you then in
judgment for where they are? Andthe reason that that's important
is to answer your question ofhow do you navigate and how do
you handle it when you see oneof your peers, one of your
colleagues kicking off aboutsomething or responding in a way
(13:39):
that maybe isn't as professionalor upholding the culture of the
organization. The first thingthat's really important is, am I
in judgment right now? Am Ijudging this person for their
reaction?
If the answer is yes, you havean awareness loop, and you have
an you have an opportunity tosit with yourself and the
emotions that are coming up tocultivate your self awareness so
(14:01):
that you can release some ofthat judgment so that you can
invite in curiosity. So I alwayssay curiosity is the antidote to
judgment.
Adam Larson (14:10):
Okay.
Rachel Kourakos (14:11):
If you're in judgment, the question then
becomes how can I get curious?So, Adam, you actually naturally
did this where you said, Maybethis person's having a bad day.
Are they okay? Right? So younaturally went to curiosity.
But sometimes in the heat of themoment, that's hard to access.
You're gonna be like, oh, thatperson's a jerk. That person's
like, really? What? Like, I'mback off.
Right? You'll be in judgment. Soit's normal to be in judgment.
(14:32):
Right? Because our emotions aregonna kick in in response to an
emotional trigger by someoneelse.
But then what you wanna do issit with yourself to get to
curiosity. Then what you wannaacknowledge is how can I either
hold space for this person,which for anyone listening or
watching who doesn't know whatthat means, that means how can I
(14:53):
actually have a conversationwith this person with an
intention of letting them ventor process or talk? That's what
holding space is, where it'slike, can I get some room to
hear what's going on? So youhave to decide if you can hold
space for someone or not, andthat starts with your ability to
be curious, be open to help thatperson. If you feel like you
(15:15):
can't be and you're gonna beaggressive or judgmental,
probably a good one to walk awayfor some time until you've
cooled off and then feel likeyou can have that conversation.
But here's the thing that Iactually really wanna talk
about, Adam, is in professionalsettings, and I see this across
so many organizations despitethem having amazing individual
(15:36):
people. But oftentimes, I haveno idea where this came in from,
but in professional settings, weput up all these guardrails and
rules of how emotion how we'resupposed to have emotional
interactions with each other andwhat is okay to do or not okay
to do. Right? So if you were ata friend's party and someone
seemed upset, you would have noissue. You'd be like, of course
(15:58):
I'm going to go say, 'Are youokay?' Do you want to go for a
walk?
Do you want to talk? If it wasone of your friends, you would
be like, if I saw my friendfreak out or be upset about
something, I would not evenquestion it. But in a
professional setting, whenyou're sitting with your peer,
sometimes you'll say, like, Idon't it's not really my
business. Like, do like, maybethere's something personal going
on. And to me, I'm like, whathas gone on in the professional
(16:20):
setting, and I'm using airquotes right now, that has
pushed us to forget to be reallyhuman?
And my my aunt always says, ifyou have something nice to say
or do, always do it. And then ifthe person doesn't wanna talk
about it, let them say, youknow, it's personal. I don't
really feel like talking aboutit. Great. That's totally okay
(16:42):
if they have a boundary thatthey don't wanna cross with a
professional colleague.
But if you are concerned andyou're saying, you know, is this
person okay? Always ask. Always,always, always ask. And by the
way, for those of you who arelistening or watching who are
more junior, the senior people,the execs, are humans. They also
have all of the emotions.
(17:04):
I have coached one of the mosteye opening things in coaching
over 40 execs over the lastcouple years has been that some
of them are in their forties,fifties, sixties, and they feel
the exact same things that theclients that I'm coaching who
are in their twenties arefeeling. And it it translates
differently that, like, thecontext of why they're feeling
that way is completelydifferent, but it's the same
(17:26):
human emotion. And so I thinkit's so important that you
check-in with with yourself, amI in judgment or curiosity? You
then say, can I hold space forthis person? You then remember
to be a human, to just be ahuman.
The same way in New York City,I've seen someone crying on the
(17:48):
street and I have said, Hi,stranger. Are you okay?
Adam Larson (17:52):
Yeah.
Rachel Kourakos (17:53):
And someone has given me a hug. They're like,
Can I have a hug? And I'm like,Yes. You can have a hug. And
then that's the end of theengagement because that's what
it means to be human.
And we really we write theserules that make us forget that
every person's human andeveryone just wants to be cared
for in different ways. And ifthey don't, they'll tell you,
and that's okay.
Adam Larson (18:12):
Yeah. I I really like that approach. You know,
everything that you said wasreally great, reframing it and
remembering to look at yourself,say, what what am I doing? Why
am I having these thoughts? Butit all comes back around to
something, you know, that youand I've talked about for is
remembering that it's not aboutyou.
So you see that person andthey're having that struggle
(18:32):
instead of, you know, you'relike, I wanna go talk to them.
Well, it's not about you. 1st,look at yourself, look at your
judgment, you know. Then if ifit goes to curiosity and then
there's creative moment for thatspace, still it's not about you
and you're respecting theirboundaries and making sure that
you're creating that safemoment. Because if they don't
wanna talk to you, they don'twanna talk to you.
If you've never talked to thatperson in your whole life, you
know, is that the first timethat you wanna say, hey, are you
(18:53):
okay? Like, hey, you've nevertalked to me before. But it
could be an open moment like theperson on the street like you
were saying. But it'sremembering that's not about
you.
Rachel Kourakos (19:01):
Absolutely, Adam. And if I were to die on a
hill in over the last few years,it would be that message of it's
not about you ever. It's alwaysabout the person and their
circumstances and theirsituation. They might throw it
out on you. Like, sometimes theymight emotionally vomit on you
by accident.
(19:21):
But if you as a person can bringthat consciousness and instead
of being like, why are theyyelling at me or why are they
mad at me? And say, hold on.Okay. This feels like it's about
me, so it might be a little bit.But if it weren't about me and I
were really just listening towhat this person is
communicating, what is it reallyabout?
Adam Larson (19:44):
So I'll
Rachel Kourakos (19:44):
give you example. Let's say you work on a
project. You then are presentingit to a couple of senior
leaders, and you've been workingon the project for a couple
months, presenting it to acouple of senior leaders, and
you get feedback on the project,and it's not great. It's this
isn't really the strategicdirection we wanted to go. This
is, you know, not capturing alot of things that we think are
really important.
(20:06):
The not conscious person, thenot conscious leader would say,
oh, no. I'm not good enough. Iworked so hard, and it wasn't
what they wanted. I don't know.You know, I can't I'm not
effective at my job.
I didn't perform. Right? Whichis all a normal thing to have go
through someone's mind, wherethey make it all about them.
(20:27):
Side note, there's beautifulwork to do on that in
partnership with coaches andprofessionals and people to work
through that sense of self. Butwhat happens is when someone
goes into that kind of thinking,they sort of miss all the juicy
information that they'regathering from their leaders,
from the people that they'regathering feedback from.
(20:49):
And what happens is they get sokind of I'm saying they we
because if this happens toeveryone. We get so caught up in
managing our own hearts and ourown emotions and reaction to
feeling disappointed on theoutcome that we forget to get
curious. We forget to then say,They're giving me a lot of
really good info that can helpme address core sorry, help me
(21:11):
change course or address what'sgoing on. But we miss the
opportunity to do that becausewe're so busy making it about
ourselves. So it's seldom thatthose people are saying, you as
a human are not good enough.
Right? Like, it's that's veryrare that that's what's actually
being communicated. So if that'snot what they're trying to
communicate, what are theytrying to communicate? So in
(21:35):
cultivating that ability to leadyourself and lead others and not
make it about you, you have tosay, okay. This is painful.
This is what it sounds like.It's, I feel not good enough.
I'm upset. I worked really hardon this. Okay.
Hold on. Rachel, this isn'tabout you right now. It's not
about you. We can deal with thatafter. If it's not about me,
what is this about?
(21:55):
Oh, this person said that wemissed looping in a team that
really needs to be giving input.Okay. Great. Let me ask a
follow-up question on that. Whatwhat do we need to talk about
with this team?
Why did you why do you thinkthat they should be included? I
hadn't thought about that.Beautiful. You learn. Okay.
This person said this thing.Beautiful. You learn. And this
isn't about I just wanna be soabundantly clear. This is not a
(22:18):
shove your emotions under therug.
This is not about removingemotion. I am a big believer
that the best leaders carry aton of emotion in everything
that they're doing, but they arebringing in intentional emotion,
and they understand what is kickstarting different patterns in
themselves and can work with it.So while you might still have
that internal narrative of beingupset, you then say, Ah, okay.
(22:42):
So this negative feedback isjust triggering my performance
desires and my desire toachieve. I know that that's
important to me.
It's okay that this feels thisway, and that's normal. And let
me just not put it aside, butput it down next to me because
I'm sitting in front of a groupof people who are trying to help
me achieve my goal by way oftheir feedback. And so I'm
(23:06):
giving that example, Adam,because it we get we all get so
stuck in making about uspersonally, and it's rarely
about that. It's rarely aboutthat. And when you're not paying
attention in that way, you'regonna miss what's being
communicated.
(23:26):
So I'll give one other totallyseparate example.
Adam Larson (23:29):
Okay.
Rachel Kourakos (23:31):
After dinner, you and your partner or your
roommate have dishes to do.You're annoyed because your
roommate or partner hasn't donethe dishes the last couple of
nights. And you look at yourpartner and you say, Hey. It's
your turn to do the dishes, andyou bring all this sass in. Or,
Yes, exactly.
(23:51):
Please, it's your turn to do thedishes. Go do it. But, really,
there's probably a little moreaggressive words in there. Maybe
you're really fired up. Younever do anything.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah. The receiver in the
nonconscious version is likelygoing to be like, well, I did
the dishes last week, and I didthe blah blah blah. You know,
they'll go into and play intothat kind of energy loop.
Whereas as as the receiver, ifyou can say, this person has a
(24:15):
need that's not being met, andthe need is they need to feel
cared for right now. And youthen respond saying, you know
what?
You're right. I didn't do thedishes the last 3 nights, and I
can tell it's important to you.Let me come do them right now.
You are gonna cut off a 20minute back and forth. That
(24:37):
second that example I'm givingyou, that you're you're saying,
this isn't about me.
They're just annoyed with me.
Adam Larson (24:42):
Yeah.
Rachel Kourakos (24:43):
They have a need that's not being met. What
is that need? Let me go meetthat need. And it's coming from
an open and gentle place whereyou're willing to be like, oh, I
don't like what they said.Actually, I did do the dishes
too.
Like, you can play that game.You can play that game, but when
you're thinking about how youinteract with people and how you
(25:05):
the energy that kind of flowsbetween you and another person,
whether it's at work or at home,if you cannot make it about you
and really say, well, what isthis person really communicating
right now? Oftentimes, you'regonna have the key to what's
going on. Yeah. And this is truein negotiation.
This is true in feedback. Thisis true in, you know, cross
(25:27):
functional dynamics, but weforget. We make it all about us.
Adam Larson (25:32):
Wow. As you were talking, it made me think, like,
person who's talking to youneeds to be a good communicator,
then you need to be a goodlistener. But it's not just
listening. It's listening withself awareness. Yes.
Right?
Rachel Kourakos (25:46):
Yes. It's listening with self awareness.
But the one thing I'm gonnatweak on what you just said
Mhmm. They don't need to be agood communicator. They can
express it however they want toexpress it.
You have to be willing to listenwith self awareness and a desire
to listen to what's not beingsaid or to what's being said
under the surface and not playin the egoic component of it.
And so what I mean by that is ifsomeone says, You haven't done
(26:10):
the effing dishes, and I'm madat you, and you never meet my
needs, right, they're justcommunicating from a hurt ego.
It will trigger your ego becauseyou are human. Right? That's if
someone's yelling at you orannoyed with you, you're
automatically gonna go intodefense.
Right? Because you have survivalinstincts and an ego that drives
a lot of things.
Adam Larson (26:29):
Mhmm.
Rachel Kourakos (26:30):
And so that self awareness that we're
talking about is having theability to see your ego being
like, that's that's making memad. I can feel it. I don't like
why I have this person speakingto me, and say, but that's not
the point. Let it go. Like, putit aside for a second.
What is the point? This personjust wants me to help. Okay. I
(26:51):
can do that. And that's how youalso start to break down, like,
cycles.
And we're talking in extremes.Sometimes this can be in non
extreme moments. It can justsay, oh, you know, I thought we
were meeting at this time, andyou pushed it out and, you know,
like, it can be it doesn't haveto be in aggressive extreme
moments, but everyone is alwayscommunicating something deeper
(27:12):
and bigger than what you thinkthey're communicating. And if
you can work to understandyourself and your ego, which is
always gonna be part of you ButI think of it, honestly, I think
of it, Adam, as you have yourheart, which is, like, who you
are, and then you have bubblewrap around your heart. And each
one of those bubbles on the onthe bubble wrap is a is a belief
(27:34):
you have that is driven by yourego.
That bubble wrap is your ego.And you have life experiences
that make you wrap your hearttighter and tighter to keep it
safe with a ton of bubble wrap.And most people only operate
from their bubble wrap becausethey're so afraid of what would
happen if we lead from ourheart.
Adam Larson (27:55):
Yeah.
Rachel Kourakos (27:56):
And to me, self awareness, self understanding,
like, all of that is looking atyour bubble wrap and then
finding ways to pop a couple ofthe bubbles because they're no
longer needed. They're fromchildhood stuff. They're from
different experiences thataren't necessarily relevant
today, and try to open up andunwrap so that you are a heart
(28:18):
forward leader. That is notjust, you know, rainbows and
sunshine, but, like, reallyleading with passion and purpose
and connection and wanting tosupport so that you can
cultivate a better world. I meanI mean, it gets it gets big.
Like, it's little and big. It'sto cultivate a better world and
(28:41):
better working dynamics andteams that can accomplish more
than you ever dreamed of. But ifyou're leading from your bubble
wrap, from your ego, it's reallyhard to do because you activate
everyone else's ego.
Adam Larson (28:54):
You're you're leading from a place of fear at
that point.
Rachel Kourakos (28:57):
Exactly. Exactly. Because your ego is
just afraid. They just wannakeep it just wants to keep you
safe. But, you know, like Isaid, curiosity is the antidote
to judgment.
Love is the antidote to fear.You can't be in love and in fear
at the same time. Is one or theother driving that? And so as
leaders, can you be loving andcurious? And I know I'm using
(29:19):
language that's not typical incorporate settings, but I have
no idea why we've lost it.
Adam Larson (29:23):
Yeah.
Rachel Kourakos (29:24):
No idea why we don't bring that in. And some of
the most powerful leaders are Imean, this is why you hear
people meditating, going onretreats, going with coaches,
like, all this stuff. There'sthis massive swing towards
people going to therapy. Like,everyone's trying to reconnect
and get back in touch with thattruer self because our society
has sort of built over the lastdecades this robotic version of
(29:48):
humans that, honestly, is notnot being accepted and certainly
not being accepted by Gen z. Ican tell you that much.
Adam Larson (29:56):
And if you look at how organizations are set up,
they're not set up to be a placeof, you know, zen calm thinking,
and they're very fast paced.Some places are very high
energy, high-tech, like, highstakes kind of places. How do
you apply these principles inthose in these into modern
settings? Because a lot ofplaces are understaffed and
(30:16):
people are overworked. Andunless you're the high up person
who has time to go on their Zenretreat, and you're like a like
a single person working, youknow, with 3 kids and you're
trying to make ends meet and youas soon as you leave work,
you're doing this and doingthat.
Yeah. Like, how do you applythese principles in those
moments
Rachel Kourakos (30:32):
when you
Adam Larson (30:32):
feel like you have no time?
Rachel Kourakos (30:34):
Absolutely. It's such a good question, Adam.
And it's something that mostpeople struggle with. Right?
It's it's all well and good whenwe're sitting practicing yoga on
a beach in Costa Rica to belike, yes.
I'm going to live this beautifulzed life. So there's a couple
things to think about. One is isto anchor on who do you wanna be
every day. Very simple. Who do Iwanna be today?
(30:55):
How do I wanna feel? Everymorning, I ask myself 3
questions. Who do I wanna betoday? How do I wanna feel? And
where can I create some magic?
And for me, that helps me anchorin today, presence. Do I have
goals and ambitions and thinkdreams? Absolutely. But it's
really hard to achieve thosedreams when you're in a constant
(31:17):
stress state.
Adam Larson (31:18):
Yeah.
Rachel Kourakos (31:19):
Second thing is whatever form of access you have
to doing some of the work onyourself, whether that's via
books, coaches, therapists,journaling, whatever, ever
there's the whole scale of waysto raise your awareness. But
doing that deeper work to reallyunderstand, oh, this is just
(31:42):
kicking in my my fear of, like,not being smart enough. Oh, this
is just kicking in my fear ofnot being included. Oh, okay.
The world becomes a bit lighterbecause you no longer are that
thing.
You work with that thing. Soit's the difference between
being, like, I am anger versus Ifeel angry. It's really hard to
(32:02):
do that until you actuallyunderstand yourself. And the
reason that that's important,and and and I again, I'll harp
on this. Like, it all startswith that self awareness is if
you want things to be different,you have to be aware of what
you're trying to change, andthen you have to have a
willingness of wanting to changethat thing.
And so when you're trying tomanage it all, first start with
(32:25):
self awareness. Really work tounderstand yourself so that you
can be more conscious andpresent in all the different
things that you're trying tomanage at once. And then I think
the 3rd piece is is reallyadopting that mindset of I am
already a leader, and I'm eitherleading myself or leading
someone else. And so am Ileading in a way that actually
(32:47):
cultivates the life and theexperience that I wanna have at
that, like, bigger existentiallevel, or am I just the winds of
all the things around me? And ifyou feel the latter, which is so
normal, especially if you'remanaging an intense job, kids,
lots of different things,whether you are doing that or on
the precipice of that, it'sabout bringing that
intentionality and makingchoices that support you in
(33:12):
living how you want to live.
And I think one final thing I'llsay on this without going too
deep into this topic, whichprobably for another time, Adam.
Adam Larson (33:19):
Mhmm.
Rachel Kourakos (33:20):
But it's like when I work with people and they
feel very much, like, at thewhim or kind of, like, victims
to their own life, where they'resaying, you know, I have a job,
and I I have my kids. I have allthese things going on, and, you
know, it's all crazy, and it'syou know, I can't manage it all.
One of the stress tests I do,and I wouldn't to be clear, I'm
(33:41):
like a certified trained coach,so I can do this very
intentionally and hold the spacewith people in doing this. But
one of the stress tests I'll do,I'll say, so quit. And someone
will either be like, I can't dothat.
No. No. No. I would never quit.But then we understand, okay.
You are choosing to be at thisplace then. So if you're
(34:03):
choosing it, why are youchoosing it? What are you trying
to accomplish? And so theundertone of, like, stress
testing is every single area ofour life, both in the things we
do, the things we think, thethings we feel, is a choice. You
are always making a conscious orsubconscious choice.
(34:25):
And so when you feel the victim,the way to flip that around is,
okay. I'm actually choosing allof this right now. Why? And
that's when you start to do someof the work. Okay.
Well, I'm choosing this becausethis gives me security. Alright.
So security is important to me.There's a lot of different
avenues to security. Okay.
(34:47):
You know, I had someone who wasreally miserable in their
partnership, and I said, so geta divorce. And the person said,
that feels good. I've also hadother people where I've said, so
break up with them, and they'relike, no, I would never do that.
Okay. Then we understand you arechoosing this, and if you are
(35:08):
choosing this, why and how canwe choose differently or create
another version of it?
And so I think and I'm I'm notanswering your question of,
like, the how do how do youmanage it all, but to me, that
becomes a lot simpler when youstart to shift your mindset and
your heart set and your soul setto take that deep ownership over
(35:30):
your life and your life'sexperiences. Because once you've
done that, the the how tobecomes a lot easier because
you're a lot more aware ofwhat's going on, and it's no
longer a how to guide. Like,it's more about, okay, which
parts and why, and, okay, I seethis, and I see that this is the
(35:51):
part that needs to change inorder for me to be more present
and more self aware. But you arealways choosing how you react to
things. You are always choosingyour perspective.
It might not feel conscious, butif you feel like a victim,
you're choosing to be a victim.And when I say that to people,
they're like, no. No. I'm not.I'm like, you are.
(36:12):
And this isn't all about, like,tough love, but it's about
breaking that cycle of thinkingthat allows someone to then take
action against the things thatthey wanna change.
Adam Larson (36:24):
And change is not easy and it's painful. And I
think that's why a lot of peoplehaven't done the work to be
where we're talking about isbecause it's not, okay. Here's
your 5 step process and it's thesame way it works for every
single person. It doesn't workthat way. Yeah.
Rachel Kourakos (36:44):
Well, I think I'm gonna catch you, Adam, on
it.
Adam Larson (36:48):
Okay.
Rachel Kourakos (36:48):
Change can be hard. Change can be painful.
Adam Larson (36:54):
Okay.
Rachel Kourakos (36:55):
And what I did there was I shifted some of the
language in your belief, becauseif you say change is hard and
change is painful, of coursethat's how you're gonna
experience it, always. True. Butif you say it can be hard, but
it can be easy, it can bepainless, and it's all about how
you see change. And so and solisten. I'm a transition coach.
(37:20):
Like, change is the name of mygame. I love change. And it does
bring up challenges sometimesbecause it forces you to reckon
with your sense of self, yourbeliefs about the world. So it's
not that it's all willy nillyand, you know, change is like
rah rah, even though sometimes Ithink change is rah rah, but
it's kind of one of thebeautiful parts about life. And
(37:41):
if you can see it that way, and,you know, sometimes when I'm
going through a big change ortransition and it feels painful,
which, by the way, it doessometimes, the the narrative I
have is like, oh, we're just init.
We're in it, and we always comeout of it, and this is good. You
know what I say to myselfsometimes? This is just gonna be
a story in your book one day.Even when you're, like, in it
and it's horrible, and you'relike, oh, man. This is really
(38:02):
tough.
I I think, like, this is justgonna be one of those stories.
Because in everything that hasfelt hard in my life and even in
my client's life, they come outof it being like, woah. I
learned a lot.
Adam Larson (38:14):
Mhmm. So I appreciate you catching me on
that. Because as soon as yousaid that, my mind was, like,
wait. There have been changesthat haven't been so that
haven't been hard. There havebeen changes.
So it's, like, you have torethink. Because, automatic,
when you think change, you thinkof the most extreme hardest
thing you went through. But evenjust switching from this doctor
to this doctor, that's a change.That's a transition that you
(38:37):
have to make. And that can be avery simple process if the
systems talk to each other.
And if they don't, then yougotta fill up paperwork, and
it's it's annoying, and it'sfrustrating. But you get it
done, and once you're done, youknow how to do it. Yeah. You
know? So it's it it you everynot everything is the extreme
moment.
Rachel Kourakos (38:52):
Right. And if you and and the way that you
talk to yourself about thesethings will have a direct impact
on how you experience it. So Iwas with some friends when we
were on a trip, and we were in amoment of intense logistics
where just, like, everything wassort of not going well.
Announcer (39:10):
Mhmm.
Rachel Kourakos (39:11):
And one of my friends looked at me and goes,
we're having fun. Right? And Iwas like, yes. We're having fun.
And then everyone was like,we're having fun.
We're having fun. And we werejoking because we were not
having fun.
Adam Larson (39:22):
Yeah.
Rachel Kourakos (39:23):
But then we got a little bit silly with it, and
then we started to have somefun.
Adam Larson (39:28):
Mhmm.
Rachel Kourakos (39:29):
With change, with things that feel hard, you
like, you can say, we're havingfun. Or you can say, this change
is gonna be easy despite it,like, not. You know you know
you're about to endeavor insomething big, but bring
playfulness into it. Bring this,like, well, what if I thought
this was gonna be easier than Ithought? What if this is better
than I thought?
(39:50):
Because if you can flirt withthat, like, what if, an
alternative reality that's notpure negative, you then can
start to create it. I wascoaching a client who, they were
going through a breakup, and,like, a week after they broke up
(40:11):
with their partner, they'relike, I don't really feel that
sad, and I feel like I shouldfeel sad. I was like, if you
don't feel sad, don't feel sad.That person just had an
expectation that it had to besad. They didn't feel sad.
That's great. So if you're evergonna say this is gonna be
(40:33):
really hard, I want you andanyone who's listening to flirt
with the idea of, like, this isgonna be really easy, and you
don't have to believe it. Again,I'm not trying to put, like,
rainbows and sunshine, but ifyou can mentally your mind what
makes us human is our ability toimagine. So if you're gonna
imagine, why are you imaginingthe worst possible outcome? You
are choosing that.
You're choosing to imagine theworst possible outcome. So if
(40:55):
you're if you're if you'rechoosing it, why wouldn't you
imagine that it's better thanyou think? Why wouldn't you
imagine that it could be easierthan you think? Because if you
imagine in that way, your mindand your heart, everything's
gonna anchor towards how can Icreate that versus when you're
like, this is gonna be reallybad, and then you put it off and
you avoid, you're gonnasubconsciously create the bad
(41:17):
version? And it doesn't mean itends up being amazing.
It still might be you might say,I imagine the good, and this is
really bad. Like, this was worsethan I thought. Mhmm. And that's
okay, But at least you wouldthen have an alternative reality
that is possible, that will beguiding you to work with the
(41:40):
part that feels hard and bad.And, by the way, hard and bad is
not necessarily a bad thing.
That's a mindset. Pain, beingsad, like, those emotions, they
all have so much wisdom in them.But most people are so afraid to
feel them that they cut it off,and then they just kinda get in
this stagnant energetic loop.
Adam Larson (41:58):
Mhmm. They really could. And we could probably
talk for another hour about allthese grief and grieving things.
So
Rachel Kourakos (42:04):
Yeah.
Adam Larson (42:05):
That's for another time. Rachel, thank you so much
for coming on. This is awonderful conversation. I really
hope everybody got a lot fromit, and, it was just a real
pleasure chatting with youtoday.
Rachel Kourakos (42:14):
Likewise, Adam. Thank you so much for having me.
It was really great speakingwith you about this.
Announcer (42:21):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.imanet.org.
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