August 26, 2025 • 38 mins
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher, SFHEA, AFHERDSA, BA/BSc, Grad Dipl Ed, MA, MA (Hons), is a PhD candidate at the University of New England in Australia. She's been creating portfolios and supporting students create their own for many years in and outside of academia. As a member of the ePortfolios Australia Organising Committee, she's been involved in community engagement and support.
In this episode, Bernie takes us on her portfolio journey and shares what is important to her in her portfolio practice, what some of her methods and ways are to reflect meaningfully, and how she supports others with reflection.
Resources
- AAEEBL
- HERDSA
- Eportfolio Forum, 12-13 November 2025
- PARE sessions
- Shut Up & Write!
- Fisher, M. (2024, August 13). Look in the mirror and what do you see [Presentation]. AAEEBL Annual Meeting.
- Bernie's publications
- Gibbs, G. (1988). Learning by doing: A guide to teaching and learning methods. Oxford Brookes University.
- Mezirow, J., & Taylor, E. W. (Eds.). (2009). Transformative learning in practice: Insights from community, workplace, and higher education. Jossey-Bass.
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Production information
Production: Catalyst IT
Host: Kristina Hoeppner
Artwork: Evonne Cheung
Music: The Mahara tune by Josh Woodward
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kristina Hoeppner (00:05):
Welcome to 'Create. Share. Engage.' This is
the podcast about portfolios forlearning and more for educators,
learning designers, and managerskeen on integrating portfolios
with their education andprofessional development
practices. 'Create. Share.
Engage.' is brought to you bythe Mahara team at Catalyst IT.
(00:26):
My name is Kristina Hoeppner.
Today I'm excited to be speakingwith Marie Fisher, who is known
as Bernie in the AustralasianePortfolio community. I've known
Bernie for quite a while nowbecause she is a member of the
ePortfolios Australia OrganisingCommittee and very active in
(00:49):
portfolio research and alsosharing her knowledge with
everybody in the community. SoI'm stoked to be talking with
her primarily about herreflective practices today.
Hello Bernie.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (01:02):
Thank you for asking me, Kristina.
Appreciate that.
Kristina Hoeppner (01:05):
Bernie, what do you do now at the University
of New England?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (01:10):
I've changed trajectory since late
2023. I'm now doing my PhD fulltime, which is unusual because
usually you do it before youracademic career, but I'm taking
a break from an academic career,and I'm studying for a PhD full
time in IT and education. I'mlooking at resilience in how
academics derive resilience fromusing technology to complete
(01:32):
their educative work. Portfoliosdo feature in that in some way.
So that's what I'm doing. I'mnot doing paid work in the
sector, but I'm a scholarshipstudent at the University of New
England, full time, workingfully online.
Kristina Hoeppner (01:45):
You did already mention portfolios. When
did you encounter them for thefirst time?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (01:50):
Oh, gosh, many decades ago, which perhaps
our listeners might be a bitworried if they know exactly
when. But when I was in my lateteens and I was at TAFE at
Technical and Further Educationcollege, that's what we call it
in Australia and in the UK, Ihad to keep a portfolio of
evidence, and it was a manualportfolio, like you would type
it up, but you would print it,and then you would keep it as
(02:12):
evidence. That was evidence ofhaving met certain standards in
the vocational education andtraining sector, primarily in
business, but also initially, Itrained as a shorthand typist,
amongst other things. So thatwas a very, very long time ago.
From there, I didn't really lookat them so much. I always had a
portfolio of evidence becauseyou needed that for a career.
(02:33):
But then I retrained a few timesin different careers, and I
worked as an IT systems designerand developer. We had to keep a
journal, if you like, just ofwhat we were testing, how we
tested it, and that's when Istarted keeping an ePortfolio
because I had to show evidenceof having tested particular
financial software. So that wasin the IT or digital sector.
(02:53):
Then I used it in a postgraduatedegree when I trained as a
school teacher in secondaryeducation because I decided I
wanted to do something a littledifferent and liked helping
people learn about things. I hadto keep an ePortfolio of
evidence which was profiled andsupported and informed by
theoretical models. So it waslike a reflective portfolio that
(03:15):
had support there by research.
It was a different way ofwriting. I suppose that's
something I've been developingand evolving, and I've taught in
that sort of space as well.
Kristina Hoeppner (03:25):
What did you think about reflection when you
started with your portfoliopractice?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (03:29):
As an IT person, when I put my IT in my
more linear, if you likeconservative side, I really
wasn't so happy about sharingfeelings. I could see how you
could do something differentlyand that would be a way of
improving. But I really had totrain myself to think about what
reflection actually meant andwhy it was so important to have
(03:49):
self in there. Initially, I wasa bit reluctant. When I studied
postgraduate education, I was alittle bit more open to it, and
I found that I was actuallyquite competent at it. I'd say
curious and competent. I don'tlike to say an expert because
you could always learn somethingnew. I found that it actually
got me a job. I was hired by theuniversity to teach the
(04:11):
undergraduates because theysaid, "You're very good at
reflection, and you're good atexplaining this to other
students. Why don't you come andwork for us for a semester, get
some extra money?" So I did.
From there, I worked as a schoolteacher for a while, and I
taught students how to useePortfolios. I taught some VET
units, some vocational educationand training units, in a course
(04:32):
called Business Administration.
I also taught in IT. So I helpedstudents keep all these
different aspects of theirportfolio, which was a
continuing, living document, butnot just a document. There were
artefacts in there as well. Ifound it quite exciting
actually, because there wasalways something new to teach,
but also something new to learnas a practitioner.
Kristina Hoeppner (04:51):
Bernie, what has helped you actually get into
reflection? Because you did saythat you had been reluctant at
first, until you realised youwere quite competent, and people
also praised you for it.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (05:04):
I think it was because it gives a person
who's reading it or engagingwith you and talking to you
about it, gives them an insightinto what you're like as a
person, that I have highempathy, I am a competent
teacher, but I'm also willing tochange myself to move forward or
learn something new or adapt, ifyou like. It helped me adapt.
And when I saw it as an adaptiontool to perhaps even in my own
(05:27):
PhD research, I thought,actually, this is quite
valuable. I was able to writeprofessional so I had that
balance between the personal,but not too personal, because,
you know, that's something inprofessional jobs that we have
to be a little careful of enoughof oneself in there, but also to
say that I'm the type of personthat you might want to employ,
or you might want me to teachyour students, or you might want
(05:49):
me to engage in research.
It's difficult to pin it down toa simple answer, but I think it
opened my mind up to ways that Icould adapt my practice. And it
was a realisation that came overtime. I'd applied for jobs where
you'd had to actually reflect onyour experience and how you'd
improved, not shown yourweaknesses, but areas that you
(06:11):
could improve that perhaps youweren't as strong as others. So
for example, if I was good atprogramming more complex things,
then why was I struggling withthe simple ones? It was maybe
changing your thinking, but alsochanging the way you
collaborate. That's how Igradually got into that space,
and of course, I published inthat space as well.
I was keen to write reflectionsthat would help others, that
(06:34):
were informed by theory andsupported by theory and
literature, but that it wasn'tjust a nod to literature, it was
really showing you this is anissue that's happening, and this
is how I managed it, and this ishow you could look at it or
solve that problem.
Kristina Hoeppner (06:48):
Do you have a favourite question that gets you
into the reflective frame ofmind?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (06:55):
I suppose it might be something like 'What
happened today?' or what I wouldcall, as a nod to Meziro, the
theorist who was known fortransformative learning, a
disorienting dilemma. Sosomething happened that just
wasn't what you wanted tohappen. That can trigger me to
start reflecting. For example,it might be when I changed to do
(07:16):
my PhD, I was in a situationwhere there was a lot of change
in the sector across the world,not just in Australia and New
Zealand, but across the world,and I had an opportunity to do
something different, but it wasdisorienting because it was
outside of my comfort zone. Toanswer that question, I'd say
yes, something outside of mycomfort zone will start me off.
It might not be something I willpublish or share straight away.
(07:38):
I might come back to it, but I'dcertainly start with some key
questions, and that would be thefirst question, What was the
disorienting dilemma?
One particular article I canthink about was HDR resilience.
People will say, "Well, what areyou writing about?" And I'd say,
"Well, a lot of students don'tknow, they may be older people,
they may be younger people, theydon't know how to start their
(07:59):
HDR application. They don't knowwhat questions to ask." It's
daunting. You have to have anePortfolio, pretty much, to
apply for a PhD. So I reflectedon it, my own experience, and I
wrote about it. While that mightseem like to some more
experienced researcher a minorpiece of research, it is an
important piece of research ifyou are going to move forward
and learn to reflect on thingsthat challenge you and make you
(08:22):
feel uncomfortable.
Kristina Hoeppner (08:24):
Mhh. What is HDR?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (08:25):
HDR is Higher Degree by Research. We
refer to our students like PhDor Master of Philosophy students
or Master of Science by researchstudents as HDR students.
Kristina Hoeppner (08:37):
So Bernie, if I'm hearing that correctly, then
you use the reflection prettymuch for yourself, initially...
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (08:44):
Yes.
Kristina Hoeppner (08:44):
... and then if you want to make it available
to somebody else in the form ofa portfolio for a particular
purpose, you might revise it andmight only share part of it, and
not necessarily your entirereflection.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (08:58):
That's right, yes. And students, more
recently, I suppose, I'm notteaching HDR students or
postgraduate students at themoment, but they struggle with
putting themselves on the lineand saying there's something
they don't understand,particularly if they're training
to be teachers or training to bepeople who are programmers or
technology support people oreven learning designers. I think
(09:20):
once they realise, and that'swhat I would share with them,
once they realise that it's okayto be uncomfortable, this is a
learning point, you won'tunderstand everything that
you're studying at first. Youjust have to work out what are
the building blocks for that. Ifind that helping students like
providing a reflection template,and I have done this actually in
my PhD research, I provided avery short template based on
(09:43):
Gibbs' 1988 model. There areother models of reflection, as
I've spoken about in previousother podcasts or video
vignettes that I've been invitedto participate in.
What was the incident thathappened? Why was it
confronting? What did you learn?
What would you do differently?
How would you link this to thenext step learning? That kind of
(10:04):
thing. So it could be verysimple questions to get them
started, but as they advance,and they need a bit more
scaffolding, if you like, then Iwould look at, you know, what
are the learning outcomes inthat particular course? Like I'd
look at it overall, what are thelearning outcomes in that unit?
But not just be driven by thelearning outcomes, be guided by
them, because obviously they canbe interpreted in different ways
(10:25):
by the students, as long as theymeet a particular standard,
particularly in teachereducation, like the teaching
standards we have in Australia.
Kristina Hoeppner (10:33):
You're supporting your students in
their own reflection, inbuilding their portfolio using
that template and guided byGibbs's reflective cycle.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (10:43):
That's right. It might be that I asked
them to collect artefacts orevidence. It might be that they
if it was teacher education inone of my previous roles as an
academic at university, I'd saidto them, "Okay, so you're on a
practicum. This is your firstpracticum. There are certain
things you have to achieve onthat practicum. We can help you
design your reflection aroundthat, but you need to write
(11:05):
regularly." It's very easy forme to say that as a teacher or
academic to a student, but whenI sit down to do it, and if I'm
on a roll, I will do as much asI can and come back to it with
key questions. So I might writeeven on a notepad or on a
document, some key questionsthat I have to address. So it
might be in my own situationwhere I'd say to the students,
(11:25):
so I'm interviewing someone, andI need to ask some probing
questions, but if they'relooking a little uncomfortable,
perhaps I need to have adifferent tack and say, "So why
don't you tell me about this"and share that story about when
things didn't quite go to plan.
I'll give you an example of myown. So I might say, "I had all
this material planned. I hadtemplates, and the students
(11:46):
decided they weren't in theheadspace to do it, and we had
to approach it from a differentway." And then it puts my
interviewees at ease. Thenthey're willing to share. I must
admit that as time went on, eventhough I'd interviewed people
before, this got easier.
Similarly, I taught largecohorts of students for many
years, and I found that I couldmanage them in a digital space
(12:08):
really well. But we also usedthe tools, perhaps in Zoom or if
it was Teams or another piece ofsoftware that allowed us to
automatically save say questionsin the chat, it might be a
working document where they'dsaid, "Oh, here's some ideas for
a template" that they'd sharedtogether. So it was a chance to
build that rapport and comfortso that people would engage with
(12:31):
those things. So I'd say that'sprobably the most important
thing you have to do to buildthat relationship with them and
show that you're not perfect,that you're learning as well as
a teacher, that what makes you acompetent teacher, you're
continually learning.
Kristina Hoeppner (12:46):
Yeah, that vulnerability getting to the
point to be open about sharingsomething that we can't do
perfectly or where we are stilllearning - sometimes might be
very easy to do and other times,when we think we are expected to
know all of those things, itwould be more difficult. So you
leading by example and sharingone of your moments where you
(13:08):
struggled and therefore makingthe students more comfortable, I
think, is a really good way todo that.
Have you had any feedback fromyour students on whether that or
from the reactions that you sawduring the interviews that that
did put them at ease and thatthey were a bit more open then
afterwards?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (13:29):
I'll just comment on the interviews,
because, I mean, I have gotethics for it, and it won't
identify anyone. So that's allfine. One experienced senior
academic in a particular highered institution in Australia
because I was only looking atAustralia, just to narrow down
that field, and it isqualitative research that I'm
doing. She said that I should bea professional interviewer. And
I said, "Oh, thank you, I think,why is that?" And she said, "You
(13:51):
put me at ease really quickly.
Because although I was happy todo this, I felt a little bit
nervous." She didn't say why,but what I thought it was
possibly because, obviously, I'mwearing the PhD student hat now.
She might have viewed me as PhDstudent, not as an academic.
Most of the others viewed me asan academic. By the end of that
particular interview, thatsenior academic was viewing me
(14:12):
as a working academic, but I hadto work hard to build that
rapport and keep hercomfortable.
Another one was there wassomething else going on. I
picked that up. So I said,"Well, tell me about
ePortfolios." "Don't want totalk about those. They've all
gone wrong." So I said, "Okay,well, we could come back to
those if you want to." Anyway,we did. She brought it up and
(14:34):
said, "I'm ready to come back tothem now. I think what I was
trying to say was the technologywasn't working, and what I
should have been thinking about"and this is what she said to me,
"I should have been thinkingabout how to design the
reflection for that particularunit so it linked into the
others." she said, "and just bytalking with you about it and
sharing a story, it came to me.
So I'm happy to share that now,and that's what I'm going to
(14:54):
do."With students - a student came
to see me in my office when Iwas working at my previous
university. Oh, gosh, it was acouple of years after I taught
her, and she said, "Thank you somuch for teaching me about
ePortfolios." And I said, "Okay,what specifically?" And she
said, "Oh, that reflectionmodel. You know, I was
struggling, and I found thatvery simple template, and I used
it so that I could apply for amore senior job." She could tell
(15:17):
me it was about the reflection,it was about now making sense of
why that was needed to guideher, why she had to do it, and
how she was going to show thatshe was competent for that
particular job, even thoughshe'd not got as many years
experience as perhaps some ofthe others and she got the job.
And the online courses - duringCOVID, I had about 80
(15:37):
[students], I said to them, it'slike a portfolio because you'll
be able to have the recording.
You'll be able to have all thequestions that will help you.
This will save you time. It willsave you reading through. It
will save you jumping straightto the theoretical models and
getting lost. Anyway, thestudents feed back in the chat,
"This has been really helpful,"or private chat to me, "I didn't
understand what I was doing. Ididn't want to say I didn't
(15:59):
understand, but I feelcomfortable now." So it's about
that comfort and empathy.
Kristina Hoeppner (16:04):
Yeah, have you changed how you talk about
reflection to your studentsbased on your experience, your
face-to-face teaching, youronline teaching? Does it differ
how you introduce students tothe reflection and how you
continue with them in it?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (16:21):
I'm continually changing how I
approach them. When I talk aboutreflection, I tell them, you
know, you could hold up amirror, which is something I've
talked about before, you canhold up a mirror. You can look
in the mirror and you might say,'Oh, I'm happy with my hair, and
I'm happy with how I look' in aphysical side. Or you look in
the mirror and go, 'I lookstressed.' Why I'm thinking
about something? So I said, "Youcan be literal, or you can use
(16:44):
the metaphor of the mirror. Whatis a stressable incident for me
or a dilemma for me as ateacher, might not be the same
for you as a student. You mightbe worried about passing
prac(ticum). What steps do youneed to take? There's your
little reflection model building- I need to do this, to do that,
to do the other, and then youflesh it out."
With my peers, the HDR students,the Higher Degree by Research
(17:06):
students. I've talked aboutreflection. It was something
that came up when we weretalking about publishing, and I
said, "Well, I'm in a differentsituation now. I am a student. I
have to forget, in a way, I'm anacademic because otherwise I'm
thinking, I need to be doingthis, whereas my actual
reflection is on my practice.
It's about keeping field notesfor my research. It's about
engaging with all of you, and ifyou have questions about my
(17:28):
research, or we have questions,generally, I'm happy to offer
what I think will help." Soreflection, when I hear the
questions that come up in thosesessions, I'm thinking about how
I can help those students, butI'm not thinking of them as my
students. I have to think ofthem as my peers.
At the beginning, I mean, theywere lovely, but it was
uncomfortable for me because Ihad come out of one role and was
(17:52):
into another one, that myperception was, I'm going down a
role, and it wasn't like that atall. It was an academic who's
getting that milestone out ofthe way, but also learning new
ways to do research. I've comefrom when I first started
attending, when I became fulltime, because I was able to then
to this stage now. I would sayit's the different angles and
(18:14):
perspectives and the differentpurposes.
I explained to the students,there's a different purpose. It
might not be that you're doingyour PhD or your MPhil. It might
be that you are working as anacademic casually, and you're
trying to build up, you know,whether you continue being an
academic or a learning designeror whether you use those skills
you reflect on where you need tobe. So sometimes it's
(18:38):
comfortable to stay in one placefor a long time. And I'm sort
of, I suppose, because I'mEnglish, perhaps, and the
employment situation has alwaysbeen different in England to
other places. You tend to stayin a place to show stability,
but the world has changed. Sonow, when you reflect on it, you
might stay one or two years in aplace and then you're doing
(18:58):
something else, and that's notconsidered negatively. You've
got to reimagine how you areengaging, and reflection helps
you do that.
Kristina Hoeppner (19:07):
Bernie, do you then also give feedback to
your students on theirreflections that they do want to
share with you?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (19:14):
Yes, what I would do is I'd have two
points where I would give feedforward, acknowledging the
things that were real gems inthere that I felt that they
could develop a bit more deeply.
For example, I might say tothem, 'what about a story or a
vignette, an example that showshow this came to light?' So in
my case, I changed roles, and Ican say how I was feeling, mixed
(19:34):
feelings, obviously, but I hadto think about, what are the
benefits? What are the benefitsand costs? And the costs, of
course, are usually financialwhen you decide you're going to
study full time because it's notcheap to study. But there are
other benefits. I have been ableto do all the things I wanted to
do that were difficult to do inmy previous role because of the
flexibilities and the need forPhD students to continue their
(19:58):
networking, but not networkingfor the sake of it, actually
doing something, engaging incommunity service, keeping going
with ePortfolios networks, whichare really important, and things
like PARE, which I know you'regoing to ask me about at some
point.
I would say the benefits andcosts, it's a tough conversation
you have to have with yourself,but you don't necessarily sit
(20:20):
there and talk to yourself, butyou might write notes, and I do
a lot of writing, some of which,of course, will never get
published, which is fine, but ithelps me clarify my thoughts and
clarify what it is I need to do,and that is part of my
reflection.
Kristina Hoeppner (20:34):
What is your writing practice then? You said
that for you it is important towrite down. Is that like a
stream of consciousness, or doyou have particular questions
that you're coming back to allthe time? And for how long do
you write?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (20:49):
It's a bit of both. Although I prefer
to use computers because it'seasy to edit and change things
around. I do always keep arunning notebook. So I keep an
A5 notebook. I detail what I'mdoing each day in there, but I
balance it with the stream ofconsciousness and then with
questions. So for example, ifI'm keeping reflective field
notes, and as I said, I'mfeeling a bit behind there. I
(21:11):
think everyone always does. Itry to do free writing. It might
be I've interviewed someone,I've taken a short break,
because usually the interviewsare about an hour, although I
could write the whole waythrough, because they're on
video, I'm treating it as if I'mface-to-face, and I'm recording
it so that I can review thetranscript that's automatically
recorded. That has saved me alot of hours.
(21:32):
I think about it might be adilemma, or it might be how I
felt about the interview, forexample, with the participant,
and then I'll come back to it,and then I might just write 'the
interviewee relaxed quickly.'So, you know, obvious things,
but then I might say, 'These keyquestions came up. They were
interesting. They were relatingto the research questions.' And
then other times, I'll come backand go, right, I'm going to look
(21:52):
now at participant one. Theseare my general feelings about
what's come up and whetherthey've answered my question and
how they've answered myquestions. That's for research.
If I'm writing a paper, I try tohave subheadings that inform me
or a question under thesubheadings, I feel it's a more
efficient way of writing. It'snot always the best way of
writing, but because I was abusy academic working in an
(22:14):
environment that did not lenditself to that, even at the end
of the day, you don't feel likedoing it. But if you've got a
little questions under headings,you might go, oh, can write
about this bit. So you writeabout that bit, and it's a
stream of consciousness that youcan come back to and edit.
How long do I write for? Itdepends. Sometimes I might write
for several hours, like I'lltake a break. I'm in several
online communities, and I feelthat that's the sort of
(22:38):
community I need to be in tomake me write and make me
reflect and think about things.
And I can honestly tell you, Ican go to an ePortfolios
(Australia) meeting, whetherit's an organising meeting for
the conference or whether it'sjust a general meeting, and I'll
go away and I'll go right. Ireally feel like I've been able
to engage with these people andshare things and learn from
them. More importantly, learn, Ilike learning things.
(23:03):
So that's how I do my writing.
That's the type of writing I do.
I do do other writing. I do dostory writing. Sometimes I'll do
reflection in lists and thenexpand on it. I have yet to
redesign myself an ePortfolio,which I'm going to do, probably
in Google or something similar,or maybe even Mahara. I might go
back to Mahara because I useLinkedIn as my ePortfolio so
(23:25):
that, that way people need tofind people interested in common
interests, I'm connected tocertain groups to show the
interests in professionalnetworks that I have.
Kristina Hoeppner (23:35):
Speaking of the professional networks, you
have been an active member ofthe ePortfolios Australia
Organising Committee for manyyears...
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (23:44):
Yeah, since about 2010, yeah.
Kristina Hoeppner (23:46):
Fifteen years, that's a very long time.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (23:49):
Yeah, yeah.
Kristina Hoeppner (23:50):
You facilitated some of the PARE
sessions, and PARE stands forplan, act, reflect, and
ePortfolio, in whichprofessionals, in particular,
those working with portfolios,have time to work on their
portfolios, do some reflections.
Why are in a way, I think you'vealready answered the question,
why are these sessions importantto you?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (24:14):
For me, personally and professionally,
it's an opportunity to give backto help others, ease them in so
that they can get the most outof it. I like the idea of giving
back. It's a form of teaching.
It is facilitation. We keep itas a very simple concept. We're
here to focus on a particularpiece of writing. We're
reflecting on either a dilemmaor it could be a piece of
(24:36):
teaching. It could be someeducation issue. We're going to
spend that time writing aboutit. I suggest they have a couple
of questions. I try and picksomething that I have been
putting off and I work on it.
But the primary thing for me ishelping them work out what it is
they're going to write about. Itwas originally an idea from a
(24:59):
very nice colleague of mine,Sandra Stewart, an adaption of
the 'Shut up and write!' which,in academia, people engaged in.
I'm not sure I like 'Shut up andwrite!' because of the negative
connotations. I like the PARE.
It makes me think about a pearas in the piece of fruit, and
when you are paring it with aknife and taking out segments,
that's a metaphor that I findinteresting for me anyway.
Kristina Hoeppner (25:23):
And then you're paired with others...
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (25:26):
... and you're paired with others in
terms of pairs. Yes, that'sright. Or you can be working in
a breakout room and helpingsomeone. We had a lady from
Madrid in Spain. She spoke verylittle English. I have not
spoken fluent French and Spanishfor many years. I did use Google
to help me a bit, but Iconducted the session with her
in a breakout room in Spanish. Ishowed her how to do an
(25:48):
ePortfolio. We had a discussionin Spanish about how, I mean I
had to pause and ask her torepeat, or could she say it a
little bit more simply, but Ipretty much by the end of the
session, I felt, oh, I canremember. It was a lovely,
disorienting dilemma. This ladyhad taken the time out of a
teaching to come and attend. Itwas the evening in Europe, and
(26:09):
she sent me a message in Spanishafterwards on LinkedIn. That
would have been one of my sortof encouragers, if you like, to
keep engaging, because help oneperson, but other people have
got back to me and said, "Oh, wereally enjoyed the PARE session.
We felt we weren't judged. Wefelt we could ask whatever we
wanted. We felt well supported,and it was a very nice,
empathetic environment."
Kristina Hoeppner (26:30):
Yeah, in general, ePortfolios Australia
and also the AAEEBL communities,they're very, very network
oriented, community of practiceand helpful because we do want
to further everybody'sunderstanding of portfolios.
It's very much about sharing. SoI really appreciate all the work
you do.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (26:47):
Oh, thank you.
Kristina Hoeppner (26:48):
Bernie, since you've been involved with the
community for such a long time,have you seen any trend in
Portfolio usage in theconversations that you're having
with other academics andpractitioners?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (27:01):
Yes, certainly in HERDSA that's the
Higher Education ResearchAssociation that is an
international society that runsacross New Zealand, Australia,
Singapore now, and hopefully oneday, Europe will be nice.
Occasionally, we do get peoplefrom America who come, but we
don't have a HERDSA are overthere. In that sort of space,
people are using some off theshelf products. There has been a
(27:25):
trend, I think, in the highestlevels of universities. I say
this generally, and I say thisto be something I have observed
and I have experienced, thatpeople make decisions without
fully understanding thestrengths of ePortfolios. They
see it as another tool forstudents, but it's a lot more
than the tool. So I think thingslike Portfolium have been
(27:46):
mentioned. Obviously, Mahara,which I've used myself for
years, as you know, would havebeen open source, and it having
lots of affordances that youmight not get with something
that is already organised withtemplates for you in a less
flexible way, if you like.
One of the trends that worriedme a little bit, I think, I say
this not to criticise anyparticular university, but just
(28:07):
the decision making process. Youneed people involved who are not
just invested in ePortfolios,but who can be balanced and say
this is what we need to fit ourinstitutional needs. So for
staff, this will help staff dothis. We want to keep it nice
and simple, but we don't wantthem just profiling their
evidence for promotion or forperformance review. We want them
(28:28):
to think more broadly about howtheir practice is changing, how
they are evolving as anacademic, how they are now
contributing more to theknowledge. If they're a learning
designer, how they aredeveloping their careers, how
they are able to more broadlytarget their evidence and their
journey into new fields.
Because obviously, with AI andso forth coming into play a lot
(28:51):
more, that's something thatseems to be taking over, in some
ways, the ePortfolio tool. WhatI mean by that is not take over,
as in, replace it, but it seemsto be the buzz technology. It
worries me that people don'tthink more broadly about the
usage because no one productwould necessarily fit all. But
the idea of the tools is tosupport. It's a framework. It's
(29:14):
a hosting system where you canstore and profile that evidence.
It doesn't need to doeverything. It's nice if it
does, but if it can storeartefacts, but also allow people
to showcase artefacts in a waythat promotes learning and
teaching and career development,I think that's a great thing.
Kristina Hoeppner (29:32):
Yeah, we do have the two sides of
ePortfolios, where we have thetechnology side, of course,
which makes it easier toshowcase the evidence and do the
reflection, but then, can'tforget the educational side,
which is the really, reallyimportant one, where the
portfolio also distinguishesitself from a lot of other
educational uses because it hasthat reflective element in it.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (29:55):
That's right, yes. The reflective
element in there is usuallylways informed, supported, and
guided by a theoreticalframework or a theoretical base
that is not just aboutconstructive learning or
transformative learning, if youlike, selects aspects of those
theories so that it will helpthat person better profile
(30:17):
themselves. I see it as aconceptual framework that a
person might be building oftheir own practice. If you want
to get more in terms of thatpedagogy and educational base.
So I see mine as a conceptualframework. And if I'm doing one
portfolio for HDR, which I sortof have one, but it's still a
bit separate to my academicidentity, because if they said,
(30:39):
"Submit your portfolio," I wouldhave it compartmentalised. I
might have my PhD study andresearch. I might have my
independent scholar or communityengagement, and they may be
doorways to go in and have alook, but my journey might look
quite different. And certainly,if I had drawings and conceptual
diagrams in there, it would befor my own benefit, so they may
be locked off so I could remindmyself it is informed by a
(31:03):
conceptual framework or aspectsof theoretical, educational
theory.
Kristina Hoeppner (31:07):
That Bernie, really is the beauty of the
portfolio. Because while weoften talk about 'the'
portfolio, it is actuallymultiple portfolios. Because, as
you say, you have a portfoliofor this, for that, you have
your public one on LinkedIn, butyou have a lot of other
reflections and thoughts andideas written down somewhere
(31:27):
else, and not everything needsto be public. Your portfolio
does not always just have to beshared with everyone or just
even a select group.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (31:35):
It's becoming interesting when you
look at a portfolio like system,like LinkedIn. You need a
professional one. It's sort ofset up so you can do the basics,
but you don't have tonecessarily put dates in, and
they're going to have youwritten off if you're older or
written off if you're abeginning academic because
people still make judgments.
That's the key thing. I thinkthat puts students on edge with
(31:55):
ePortfolios, and sometimes staffas well. They don't want to be
judged. But if you said to me,"Send me your ePortfolio, I need
to know what you've published orwhat your experience is," I'd
say to you, "Have a look atLinkedIn," or I'd say,
"Kristina, do you want me tosend you a link to a particular
part of it so that you can justhave a look at it?" And you'd
probably say, "Yeah, just sendme a link to part of it." So I
(32:20):
can do that pretty quickly.
Kristina Hoeppner (32:20):
It's a curation of your evidence and
your reflection.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (32:20):
That's something I perhaps wasn't as
good at, but I know how tocurate. And when I was doing my
application for my PhD, I wasjust able to send ePortfolio
links to answer certainquestions. There is a link to
other articles. Here are the topfive. So it was good.
Kristina Hoeppner (32:36):
Bernie, what do you wish everybody knew about
portfolios?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (32:41):
They're not scary, they're not things to
be avoided. They are things thatcan help you in many aspects of
life outside of career. They canshow what kind of person you
are, what kind of fit you arefor a job, but they can also
show you what kind of fit youmight be for an organisation, a
network, a particular role,something in the voluntary
sector that is needed. It's aliving evolving story with many
(33:05):
parts, some of which should beshared or can be shared, but not
all of them need to be shared.
Kristina Hoeppner (33:12):
Now before we go into our last three questions
in the quick answer round, let'sput in a short commercial break
and talk about the upcomingEportfolio Forum because that's
the annual event where you,Allison [Miller], Christine
[Slade], and many, many othersthat are on the committee bring
together practitioners,academics, and also researchers.
(33:34):
What's the focus of this year'sForum, and why should everybody
attend?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (33:39):
Two bits that stick out are resolution to
do something and revolution -change completely the way you
are approaching this. Those arethe things that resonate with
me. A revolution or aresolution, the resolution for
new people. Decide to do it,follow it through. There's help
available. This is a supportive,collegial education with high
(34:00):
profile people, colleagues ofmine, who also have dear friends
of mine, led by Allison Miller.
They bring a wealth ofexperience, but also a wealth of
support. Come if you want tomake a resolution to do
something different, if you wantto engage in a revolution, as in
completely turn your practice onits head and approach it
differently. That's what Irecommend.
Kristina Hoeppner (34:21):
And then also come along if you want to evolve
your own portfolio practice.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (34:26):
Oh yes, of course, if you want to evolve
your practice and learn aboutsome of the software programmes
and tools that can help yourealise what it is you need to
do. There are so many of them.
Look, having used Mahara andenjoyed using that. We were very
lucky at the previousinstitution, we had a wonderful
person there. He was a learningdesigner who I won't mention his
name because he probably doesn'twant me to mention his name. He
(34:48):
likes to be low key, but he dida great job there, working with
yourself and the Mahara group.
But also some of these otherpackages, while I might have
used them many years ago, and Imight. Have used them when I was
beginning. I like theaffordances of something more
flexible that I can take partsin and out of. I can use that if
I want, or I can keep itextremely simple and just have
(35:09):
it so it's almost a flat filethat I can use to bring things
in and out and then put intosomething like Mahara.
Kristina Hoeppner (35:17):
At the Forum, will people be able to find you
at the University of Tasmania,or are you like me going to be
one of the online participants?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (35:26):
I'll probably be online.
Kristina Hoeppner (35:28):
so we'll see if we can see each other online
on the 12th and 13th of November2025 then, and for everybody
else who can make it to theUniversity of Tasmania, then
they will have the opportunityto catch everybody in person,
and also have the hallway track.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (35:44):
It's a great time to go to Tasmania.
The weather is usually better,and it is worthwhile having a
look not just at the north, butat the south as well, if you
can. Lovely place.
Kristina Hoeppner (35:54):
It sure is a wonderful part of the country.
Now to our last three questions,the quick answer round, Bernie.
Which words or short phrases doyou use to describe portfolio
work?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (36:07):
I thought about this, and I decided,
diversified, informed, andprofessional.
Kristina Hoeppner (36:12):
Awesome. What tip do you have for learning
designers or instructors whocreate portfolio activities?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (36:19):
Oh, gosh.
Kristina Hoeppner (36:21):
So many, right?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (36:22):
There's so many. For a short sentence, I
would just encourage relate itto professional practice and
learning or career developmentbecause this will not only help
the people you're trying tosupport take this up, but it
will also give you some insightsinto things that perhaps, as a
learning designer, you may nothave had before. Because
although we work closely withlearning designers as academics,
(36:44):
sometimes we don't alwaysunderstand the nitty gritty and
the fine things that they dobehind the scenes. And
similarly, with us, it probablylooks sometimes that we've got
all this time on our hands to dostuff, but we don't, and I think
that would promote learning anda better understanding of what
it is that academics andstudents need.
Kristina Hoeppner (37:02):
Yeah and support that lifelong learning
that we do want to encourage.
Now, what is your advice forportfolio authors, be that your
students or fellow academics orany fellow practitioners?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (37:16):
Start off with a question that you would
like to answer. It might be, howdo I profile my experience?
Start from there to start withsomething very, very simple. If
you're better doing lists, do alist of all your personal versus
all your professional that wouldbe the suggestion I would have.
Kristina Hoeppner (37:34):
Thank you so much. I really appreciate having
had the chance to chat with youtoday, Bernie, because
oftentimes we do see each otheronly at conferences. It's
fantastic to have learned moreabout your personal journey and
also your reflective practiceand how you marry that up with
your professional journey andprofessional path. So thank you
(37:56):
very much.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (37:57):
Thank you very much, Kristina.
Kristina Hoeppner (38:00):
Now over to our listeners. What do you want
to try in your own portfoliopractice? This was 'Create.
Share. Engage.' with Marie'Bernie' Fisher. Head to our
website, podcast.mahara.org,where you can find resources and
the transcript for this episode.
It would be great if you sharedour podcast with a colleague of
(38:21):
yours so they can listen aswell. Until then, create, share,
and engage.
Welcome to 'Create. Share. Engage.' This is
the podcast about portfolios forlearning and more for educators,
learning designers, and managerskeen on integrating portfolios
with their education andprofessional development
practices. 'Create. Share.
Engage.' is brought to you bythe Mahara team at Catalyst IT.
(00:26):
My name is Kristina Hoeppner.
Today I'm excited to be speakingwith Marie Fisher, who is known
as Bernie in the AustralasianePortfolio community. I've known
Bernie for quite a while nowbecause she is a member of the
ePortfolios Australia OrganisingCommittee and very active in
(00:49):
portfolio research and alsosharing her knowledge with
everybody in the community. SoI'm stoked to be talking with
her primarily about herreflective practices today.
Hello Bernie.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (01:02):
Thank you for asking me, Kristina.
Appreciate that.
Kristina Hoeppner (01:05):
Bernie, what do you do now at the University
of New England?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (01:10):
I've changed trajectory since late
2023. I'm now doing my PhD fulltime, which is unusual because
usually you do it before youracademic career, but I'm taking
a break from an academic career,and I'm studying for a PhD full
time in IT and education. I'mlooking at resilience in how
academics derive resilience fromusing technology to complete
(01:32):
their educative work. Portfoliosdo feature in that in some way.
So that's what I'm doing. I'mnot doing paid work in the
sector, but I'm a scholarshipstudent at the University of New
England, full time, workingfully online.
Kristina Hoeppner (01:45):
You did already mention portfolios. When
did you encounter them for thefirst time?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (01:50):
Oh, gosh, many decades ago, which perhaps
our listeners might be a bitworried if they know exactly
when. But when I was in my lateteens and I was at TAFE at
Technical and Further Educationcollege, that's what we call it
in Australia and in the UK, Ihad to keep a portfolio of
evidence, and it was a manualportfolio, like you would type
it up, but you would print it,and then you would keep it as
(02:12):
evidence. That was evidence ofhaving met certain standards in
the vocational education andtraining sector, primarily in
business, but also initially, Itrained as a shorthand typist,
amongst other things. So thatwas a very, very long time ago.
From there, I didn't really lookat them so much. I always had a
portfolio of evidence becauseyou needed that for a career.
(02:33):
But then I retrained a few timesin different careers, and I
worked as an IT systems designerand developer. We had to keep a
journal, if you like, just ofwhat we were testing, how we
tested it, and that's when Istarted keeping an ePortfolio
because I had to show evidenceof having tested particular
financial software. So that wasin the IT or digital sector.
(02:53):
Then I used it in a postgraduatedegree when I trained as a
school teacher in secondaryeducation because I decided I
wanted to do something a littledifferent and liked helping
people learn about things. I hadto keep an ePortfolio of
evidence which was profiled andsupported and informed by
theoretical models. So it waslike a reflective portfolio that
(03:15):
had support there by research.
It was a different way ofwriting. I suppose that's
something I've been developingand evolving, and I've taught in
that sort of space as well.
Kristina Hoeppner (03:25):
What did you think about reflection when you
started with your portfoliopractice?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (03:29):
As an IT person, when I put my IT in my
more linear, if you likeconservative side, I really
wasn't so happy about sharingfeelings. I could see how you
could do something differentlyand that would be a way of
improving. But I really had totrain myself to think about what
reflection actually meant andwhy it was so important to have
(03:49):
self in there. Initially, I wasa bit reluctant. When I studied
postgraduate education, I was alittle bit more open to it, and
I found that I was actuallyquite competent at it. I'd say
curious and competent. I don'tlike to say an expert because
you could always learn somethingnew. I found that it actually
got me a job. I was hired by theuniversity to teach the
(04:11):
undergraduates because theysaid, "You're very good at
reflection, and you're good atexplaining this to other
students. Why don't you come andwork for us for a semester, get
some extra money?" So I did.
From there, I worked as a schoolteacher for a while, and I
taught students how to useePortfolios. I taught some VET
units, some vocational educationand training units, in a course
(04:32):
called Business Administration.
I also taught in IT. So I helpedstudents keep all these
different aspects of theirportfolio, which was a
continuing, living document, butnot just a document. There were
artefacts in there as well. Ifound it quite exciting
actually, because there wasalways something new to teach,
but also something new to learnas a practitioner.
Kristina Hoeppner (04:51):
Bernie, what has helped you actually get into
reflection? Because you did saythat you had been reluctant at
first, until you realised youwere quite competent, and people
also praised you for it.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (05:04):
I think it was because it gives a person
who's reading it or engagingwith you and talking to you
about it, gives them an insightinto what you're like as a
person, that I have highempathy, I am a competent
teacher, but I'm also willing tochange myself to move forward or
learn something new or adapt, ifyou like. It helped me adapt.
And when I saw it as an adaptiontool to perhaps even in my own
(05:27):
PhD research, I thought,actually, this is quite
valuable. I was able to writeprofessional so I had that
balance between the personal,but not too personal, because,
you know, that's something inprofessional jobs that we have
to be a little careful of enoughof oneself in there, but also to
say that I'm the type of personthat you might want to employ,
or you might want me to teachyour students, or you might want
(05:49):
me to engage in research.
It's difficult to pin it down toa simple answer, but I think it
opened my mind up to ways that Icould adapt my practice. And it
was a realisation that came overtime. I'd applied for jobs where
you'd had to actually reflect onyour experience and how you'd
improved, not shown yourweaknesses, but areas that you
(06:11):
could improve that perhaps youweren't as strong as others. So
for example, if I was good atprogramming more complex things,
then why was I struggling withthe simple ones? It was maybe
changing your thinking, but alsochanging the way you
collaborate. That's how Igradually got into that space,
and of course, I published inthat space as well.
I was keen to write reflectionsthat would help others, that
(06:34):
were informed by theory andsupported by theory and
literature, but that it wasn'tjust a nod to literature, it was
really showing you this is anissue that's happening, and this
is how I managed it, and this ishow you could look at it or
solve that problem.
Kristina Hoeppner (06:48):
Do you have a favourite question that gets you
into the reflective frame ofmind?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (06:55):
I suppose it might be something like 'What
happened today?' or what I wouldcall, as a nod to Meziro, the
theorist who was known fortransformative learning, a
disorienting dilemma. Sosomething happened that just
wasn't what you wanted tohappen. That can trigger me to
start reflecting. For example,it might be when I changed to do
(07:16):
my PhD, I was in a situationwhere there was a lot of change
in the sector across the world,not just in Australia and New
Zealand, but across the world,and I had an opportunity to do
something different, but it wasdisorienting because it was
outside of my comfort zone. Toanswer that question, I'd say
yes, something outside of mycomfort zone will start me off.
It might not be something I willpublish or share straight away.
(07:38):
I might come back to it, but I'dcertainly start with some key
questions, and that would be thefirst question, What was the
disorienting dilemma?
One particular article I canthink about was HDR resilience.
People will say, "Well, what areyou writing about?" And I'd say,
"Well, a lot of students don'tknow, they may be older people,
they may be younger people, theydon't know how to start their
(07:59):
HDR application. They don't knowwhat questions to ask." It's
daunting. You have to have anePortfolio, pretty much, to
apply for a PhD. So I reflectedon it, my own experience, and I
wrote about it. While that mightseem like to some more
experienced researcher a minorpiece of research, it is an
important piece of research ifyou are going to move forward
and learn to reflect on thingsthat challenge you and make you
(08:22):
feel uncomfortable.
Kristina Hoeppner (08:24):
Mhh. What is HDR?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (08:25):
HDR is Higher Degree by Research. We
refer to our students like PhDor Master of Philosophy students
or Master of Science by researchstudents as HDR students.
Kristina Hoeppner (08:37):
So Bernie, if I'm hearing that correctly, then
you use the reflection prettymuch for yourself, initially...
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (08:44):
Yes.
Kristina Hoeppner (08:44):
... and then if you want to make it available
to somebody else in the form ofa portfolio for a particular
purpose, you might revise it andmight only share part of it, and
not necessarily your entirereflection.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (08:58):
That's right, yes. And students, more
recently, I suppose, I'm notteaching HDR students or
postgraduate students at themoment, but they struggle with
putting themselves on the lineand saying there's something
they don't understand,particularly if they're training
to be teachers or training to bepeople who are programmers or
technology support people oreven learning designers. I think
(09:20):
once they realise, and that'swhat I would share with them,
once they realise that it's okayto be uncomfortable, this is a
learning point, you won'tunderstand everything that
you're studying at first. Youjust have to work out what are
the building blocks for that. Ifind that helping students like
providing a reflection template,and I have done this actually in
my PhD research, I provided avery short template based on
(09:43):
Gibbs' 1988 model. There areother models of reflection, as
I've spoken about in previousother podcasts or video
vignettes that I've been invitedto participate in.
What was the incident thathappened? Why was it
confronting? What did you learn?
What would you do differently?
How would you link this to thenext step learning? That kind of
(10:04):
thing. So it could be verysimple questions to get them
started, but as they advance,and they need a bit more
scaffolding, if you like, then Iwould look at, you know, what
are the learning outcomes inthat particular course? Like I'd
look at it overall, what are thelearning outcomes in that unit?
But not just be driven by thelearning outcomes, be guided by
them, because obviously they canbe interpreted in different ways
(10:25):
by the students, as long as theymeet a particular standard,
particularly in teachereducation, like the teaching
standards we have in Australia.
Kristina Hoeppner (10:33):
You're supporting your students in
their own reflection, inbuilding their portfolio using
that template and guided byGibbs's reflective cycle.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (10:43):
That's right. It might be that I asked
them to collect artefacts orevidence. It might be that they
if it was teacher education inone of my previous roles as an
academic at university, I'd saidto them, "Okay, so you're on a
practicum. This is your firstpracticum. There are certain
things you have to achieve onthat practicum. We can help you
design your reflection aroundthat, but you need to write
(11:05):
regularly." It's very easy forme to say that as a teacher or
academic to a student, but whenI sit down to do it, and if I'm
on a roll, I will do as much asI can and come back to it with
key questions. So I might writeeven on a notepad or on a
document, some key questionsthat I have to address. So it
might be in my own situationwhere I'd say to the students,
(11:25):
so I'm interviewing someone, andI need to ask some probing
questions, but if they'relooking a little uncomfortable,
perhaps I need to have adifferent tack and say, "So why
don't you tell me about this"and share that story about when
things didn't quite go to plan.
I'll give you an example of myown. So I might say, "I had all
this material planned. I hadtemplates, and the students
(11:46):
decided they weren't in theheadspace to do it, and we had
to approach it from a differentway." And then it puts my
interviewees at ease. Thenthey're willing to share. I must
admit that as time went on, eventhough I'd interviewed people
before, this got easier.
Similarly, I taught largecohorts of students for many
years, and I found that I couldmanage them in a digital space
(12:08):
really well. But we also usedthe tools, perhaps in Zoom or if
it was Teams or another piece ofsoftware that allowed us to
automatically save say questionsin the chat, it might be a
working document where they'dsaid, "Oh, here's some ideas for
a template" that they'd sharedtogether. So it was a chance to
build that rapport and comfortso that people would engage with
(12:31):
those things. So I'd say that'sprobably the most important
thing you have to do to buildthat relationship with them and
show that you're not perfect,that you're learning as well as
a teacher, that what makes you acompetent teacher, you're
continually learning.
Kristina Hoeppner (12:46):
Yeah, that vulnerability getting to the
point to be open about sharingsomething that we can't do
perfectly or where we are stilllearning - sometimes might be
very easy to do and other times,when we think we are expected to
know all of those things, itwould be more difficult. So you
leading by example and sharingone of your moments where you
(13:08):
struggled and therefore makingthe students more comfortable, I
think, is a really good way todo that.
Have you had any feedback fromyour students on whether that or
from the reactions that you sawduring the interviews that that
did put them at ease and thatthey were a bit more open then
afterwards?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (13:29):
I'll just comment on the interviews,
because, I mean, I have gotethics for it, and it won't
identify anyone. So that's allfine. One experienced senior
academic in a particular highered institution in Australia
because I was only looking atAustralia, just to narrow down
that field, and it isqualitative research that I'm
doing. She said that I should bea professional interviewer. And
I said, "Oh, thank you, I think,why is that?" And she said, "You
(13:51):
put me at ease really quickly.
Because although I was happy todo this, I felt a little bit
nervous." She didn't say why,but what I thought it was
possibly because, obviously, I'mwearing the PhD student hat now.
She might have viewed me as PhDstudent, not as an academic.
Most of the others viewed me asan academic. By the end of that
particular interview, thatsenior academic was viewing me
(14:12):
as a working academic, but I hadto work hard to build that
rapport and keep hercomfortable.
Another one was there wassomething else going on. I
picked that up. So I said,"Well, tell me about
ePortfolios." "Don't want totalk about those. They've all
gone wrong." So I said, "Okay,well, we could come back to
those if you want to." Anyway,we did. She brought it up and
(14:34):
said, "I'm ready to come back tothem now. I think what I was
trying to say was the technologywasn't working, and what I
should have been thinking about"and this is what she said to me,
"I should have been thinkingabout how to design the
reflection for that particularunit so it linked into the
others." she said, "and just bytalking with you about it and
sharing a story, it came to me.
So I'm happy to share that now,and that's what I'm going to
(14:54):
do."With students - a student came
to see me in my office when Iwas working at my previous
university. Oh, gosh, it was acouple of years after I taught
her, and she said, "Thank you somuch for teaching me about
ePortfolios." And I said, "Okay,what specifically?" And she
said, "Oh, that reflectionmodel. You know, I was
struggling, and I found thatvery simple template, and I used
it so that I could apply for amore senior job." She could tell
(15:17):
me it was about the reflection,it was about now making sense of
why that was needed to guideher, why she had to do it, and
how she was going to show thatshe was competent for that
particular job, even thoughshe'd not got as many years
experience as perhaps some ofthe others and she got the job.
And the online courses - duringCOVID, I had about 80
(15:37):
[students], I said to them, it'slike a portfolio because you'll
be able to have the recording.
You'll be able to have all thequestions that will help you.
This will save you time. It willsave you reading through. It
will save you jumping straightto the theoretical models and
getting lost. Anyway, thestudents feed back in the chat,
"This has been really helpful,"or private chat to me, "I didn't
understand what I was doing. Ididn't want to say I didn't
(15:59):
understand, but I feelcomfortable now." So it's about
that comfort and empathy.
Kristina Hoeppner (16:04):
Yeah, have you changed how you talk about
reflection to your studentsbased on your experience, your
face-to-face teaching, youronline teaching? Does it differ
how you introduce students tothe reflection and how you
continue with them in it?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (16:21):
I'm continually changing how I
approach them. When I talk aboutreflection, I tell them, you
know, you could hold up amirror, which is something I've
talked about before, you canhold up a mirror. You can look
in the mirror and you might say,'Oh, I'm happy with my hair, and
I'm happy with how I look' in aphysical side. Or you look in
the mirror and go, 'I lookstressed.' Why I'm thinking
about something? So I said, "Youcan be literal, or you can use
(16:44):
the metaphor of the mirror. Whatis a stressable incident for me
or a dilemma for me as ateacher, might not be the same
for you as a student. You mightbe worried about passing
prac(ticum). What steps do youneed to take? There's your
little reflection model building- I need to do this, to do that,
to do the other, and then youflesh it out."
With my peers, the HDR students,the Higher Degree by Research
(17:06):
students. I've talked aboutreflection. It was something
that came up when we weretalking about publishing, and I
said, "Well, I'm in a differentsituation now. I am a student. I
have to forget, in a way, I'm anacademic because otherwise I'm
thinking, I need to be doingthis, whereas my actual
reflection is on my practice.
It's about keeping field notesfor my research. It's about
engaging with all of you, and ifyou have questions about my
(17:28):
research, or we have questions,generally, I'm happy to offer
what I think will help." Soreflection, when I hear the
questions that come up in thosesessions, I'm thinking about how
I can help those students, butI'm not thinking of them as my
students. I have to think ofthem as my peers.
At the beginning, I mean, theywere lovely, but it was
uncomfortable for me because Ihad come out of one role and was
(17:52):
into another one, that myperception was, I'm going down a
role, and it wasn't like that atall. It was an academic who's
getting that milestone out ofthe way, but also learning new
ways to do research. I've comefrom when I first started
attending, when I became fulltime, because I was able to then
to this stage now. I would sayit's the different angles and
(18:14):
perspectives and the differentpurposes.
I explained to the students,there's a different purpose. It
might not be that you're doingyour PhD or your MPhil. It might
be that you are working as anacademic casually, and you're
trying to build up, you know,whether you continue being an
academic or a learning designeror whether you use those skills
you reflect on where you need tobe. So sometimes it's
(18:38):
comfortable to stay in one placefor a long time. And I'm sort
of, I suppose, because I'mEnglish, perhaps, and the
employment situation has alwaysbeen different in England to
other places. You tend to stayin a place to show stability,
but the world has changed. Sonow, when you reflect on it, you
might stay one or two years in aplace and then you're doing
(18:58):
something else, and that's notconsidered negatively. You've
got to reimagine how you areengaging, and reflection helps
you do that.
Kristina Hoeppner (19:07):
Bernie, do you then also give feedback to
your students on theirreflections that they do want to
share with you?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (19:14):
Yes, what I would do is I'd have two
points where I would give feedforward, acknowledging the
things that were real gems inthere that I felt that they
could develop a bit more deeply.
For example, I might say tothem, 'what about a story or a
vignette, an example that showshow this came to light?' So in
my case, I changed roles, and Ican say how I was feeling, mixed
(19:34):
feelings, obviously, but I hadto think about, what are the
benefits? What are the benefitsand costs? And the costs, of
course, are usually financialwhen you decide you're going to
study full time because it's notcheap to study. But there are
other benefits. I have been ableto do all the things I wanted to
do that were difficult to do inmy previous role because of the
flexibilities and the need forPhD students to continue their
(19:58):
networking, but not networkingfor the sake of it, actually
doing something, engaging incommunity service, keeping going
with ePortfolios networks, whichare really important, and things
like PARE, which I know you'regoing to ask me about at some
point.
I would say the benefits andcosts, it's a tough conversation
you have to have with yourself,but you don't necessarily sit
(20:20):
there and talk to yourself, butyou might write notes, and I do
a lot of writing, some of which,of course, will never get
published, which is fine, but ithelps me clarify my thoughts and
clarify what it is I need to do,and that is part of my
reflection.
Kristina Hoeppner (20:34):
What is your writing practice then? You said
that for you it is important towrite down. Is that like a
stream of consciousness, or doyou have particular questions
that you're coming back to allthe time? And for how long do
you write?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (20:49):
It's a bit of both. Although I prefer
to use computers because it'seasy to edit and change things
around. I do always keep arunning notebook. So I keep an
A5 notebook. I detail what I'mdoing each day in there, but I
balance it with the stream ofconsciousness and then with
questions. So for example, ifI'm keeping reflective field
notes, and as I said, I'mfeeling a bit behind there. I
(21:11):
think everyone always does. Itry to do free writing. It might
be I've interviewed someone,I've taken a short break,
because usually the interviewsare about an hour, although I
could write the whole waythrough, because they're on
video, I'm treating it as if I'mface-to-face, and I'm recording
it so that I can review thetranscript that's automatically
recorded. That has saved me alot of hours.
(21:32):
I think about it might be adilemma, or it might be how I
felt about the interview, forexample, with the participant,
and then I'll come back to it,and then I might just write 'the
interviewee relaxed quickly.'So, you know, obvious things,
but then I might say, 'These keyquestions came up. They were
interesting. They were relatingto the research questions.' And
then other times, I'll come backand go, right, I'm going to look
(21:52):
now at participant one. Theseare my general feelings about
what's come up and whetherthey've answered my question and
how they've answered myquestions. That's for research.
If I'm writing a paper, I try tohave subheadings that inform me
or a question under thesubheadings, I feel it's a more
efficient way of writing. It'snot always the best way of
writing, but because I was abusy academic working in an
(22:14):
environment that did not lenditself to that, even at the end
of the day, you don't feel likedoing it. But if you've got a
little questions under headings,you might go, oh, can write
about this bit. So you writeabout that bit, and it's a
stream of consciousness that youcan come back to and edit.
How long do I write for? Itdepends. Sometimes I might write
for several hours, like I'lltake a break. I'm in several
online communities, and I feelthat that's the sort of
(22:38):
community I need to be in tomake me write and make me
reflect and think about things.
And I can honestly tell you, Ican go to an ePortfolios
(Australia) meeting, whetherit's an organising meeting for
the conference or whether it'sjust a general meeting, and I'll
go away and I'll go right. Ireally feel like I've been able
to engage with these people andshare things and learn from
them. More importantly, learn, Ilike learning things.
(23:03):
So that's how I do my writing.
That's the type of writing I do.
I do do other writing. I do dostory writing. Sometimes I'll do
reflection in lists and thenexpand on it. I have yet to
redesign myself an ePortfolio,which I'm going to do, probably
in Google or something similar,or maybe even Mahara. I might go
back to Mahara because I useLinkedIn as my ePortfolio so
(23:25):
that, that way people need tofind people interested in common
interests, I'm connected tocertain groups to show the
interests in professionalnetworks that I have.
Kristina Hoeppner (23:35):
Speaking of the professional networks, you
have been an active member ofthe ePortfolios Australia
Organising Committee for manyyears...
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (23:44):
Yeah, since about 2010, yeah.
Kristina Hoeppner (23:46):
Fifteen years, that's a very long time.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (23:49):
Yeah, yeah.
Kristina Hoeppner (23:50):
You facilitated some of the PARE
sessions, and PARE stands forplan, act, reflect, and
ePortfolio, in whichprofessionals, in particular,
those working with portfolios,have time to work on their
portfolios, do some reflections.
Why are in a way, I think you'vealready answered the question,
why are these sessions importantto you?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (24:14):
For me, personally and professionally,
it's an opportunity to give backto help others, ease them in so
that they can get the most outof it. I like the idea of giving
back. It's a form of teaching.
It is facilitation. We keep itas a very simple concept. We're
here to focus on a particularpiece of writing. We're
reflecting on either a dilemmaor it could be a piece of
(24:36):
teaching. It could be someeducation issue. We're going to
spend that time writing aboutit. I suggest they have a couple
of questions. I try and picksomething that I have been
putting off and I work on it.
But the primary thing for me ishelping them work out what it is
they're going to write about. Itwas originally an idea from a
(24:59):
very nice colleague of mine,Sandra Stewart, an adaption of
the 'Shut up and write!' which,in academia, people engaged in.
I'm not sure I like 'Shut up andwrite!' because of the negative
connotations. I like the PARE.
It makes me think about a pearas in the piece of fruit, and
when you are paring it with aknife and taking out segments,
that's a metaphor that I findinteresting for me anyway.
Kristina Hoeppner (25:23):
And then you're paired with others...
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (25:26):
... and you're paired with others in
terms of pairs. Yes, that'sright. Or you can be working in
a breakout room and helpingsomeone. We had a lady from
Madrid in Spain. She spoke verylittle English. I have not
spoken fluent French and Spanishfor many years. I did use Google
to help me a bit, but Iconducted the session with her
in a breakout room in Spanish. Ishowed her how to do an
(25:48):
ePortfolio. We had a discussionin Spanish about how, I mean I
had to pause and ask her torepeat, or could she say it a
little bit more simply, but Ipretty much by the end of the
session, I felt, oh, I canremember. It was a lovely,
disorienting dilemma. This ladyhad taken the time out of a
teaching to come and attend. Itwas the evening in Europe, and
(26:09):
she sent me a message in Spanishafterwards on LinkedIn. That
would have been one of my sortof encouragers, if you like, to
keep engaging, because help oneperson, but other people have
got back to me and said, "Oh, wereally enjoyed the PARE session.
We felt we weren't judged. Wefelt we could ask whatever we
wanted. We felt well supported,and it was a very nice,
empathetic environment."
Kristina Hoeppner (26:30):
Yeah, in general, ePortfolios Australia
and also the AAEEBL communities,they're very, very network
oriented, community of practiceand helpful because we do want
to further everybody'sunderstanding of portfolios.
It's very much about sharing. SoI really appreciate all the work
you do.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (26:47):
Oh, thank you.
Kristina Hoeppner (26:48):
Bernie, since you've been involved with the
community for such a long time,have you seen any trend in
Portfolio usage in theconversations that you're having
with other academics andpractitioners?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (27:01):
Yes, certainly in HERDSA that's the
Higher Education ResearchAssociation that is an
international society that runsacross New Zealand, Australia,
Singapore now, and hopefully oneday, Europe will be nice.
Occasionally, we do get peoplefrom America who come, but we
don't have a HERDSA are overthere. In that sort of space,
people are using some off theshelf products. There has been a
(27:25):
trend, I think, in the highestlevels of universities. I say
this generally, and I say thisto be something I have observed
and I have experienced, thatpeople make decisions without
fully understanding thestrengths of ePortfolios. They
see it as another tool forstudents, but it's a lot more
than the tool. So I think thingslike Portfolium have been
(27:46):
mentioned. Obviously, Mahara,which I've used myself for
years, as you know, would havebeen open source, and it having
lots of affordances that youmight not get with something
that is already organised withtemplates for you in a less
flexible way, if you like.
One of the trends that worriedme a little bit, I think, I say
this not to criticise anyparticular university, but just
(28:07):
the decision making process. Youneed people involved who are not
just invested in ePortfolios,but who can be balanced and say
this is what we need to fit ourinstitutional needs. So for
staff, this will help staff dothis. We want to keep it nice
and simple, but we don't wantthem just profiling their
evidence for promotion or forperformance review. We want them
(28:28):
to think more broadly about howtheir practice is changing, how
they are evolving as anacademic, how they are now
contributing more to theknowledge. If they're a learning
designer, how they aredeveloping their careers, how
they are able to more broadlytarget their evidence and their
journey into new fields.
Because obviously, with AI andso forth coming into play a lot
(28:51):
more, that's something thatseems to be taking over, in some
ways, the ePortfolio tool. WhatI mean by that is not take over,
as in, replace it, but it seemsto be the buzz technology. It
worries me that people don'tthink more broadly about the
usage because no one productwould necessarily fit all. But
the idea of the tools is tosupport. It's a framework. It's
(29:14):
a hosting system where you canstore and profile that evidence.
It doesn't need to doeverything. It's nice if it
does, but if it can storeartefacts, but also allow people
to showcase artefacts in a waythat promotes learning and
teaching and career development,I think that's a great thing.
Kristina Hoeppner (29:32):
Yeah, we do have the two sides of
ePortfolios, where we have thetechnology side, of course,
which makes it easier toshowcase the evidence and do the
reflection, but then, can'tforget the educational side,
which is the really, reallyimportant one, where the
portfolio also distinguishesitself from a lot of other
educational uses because it hasthat reflective element in it.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (29:55):
That's right, yes. The reflective
element in there is usuallylways informed, supported, and
guided by a theoreticalframework or a theoretical base
that is not just aboutconstructive learning or
transformative learning, if youlike, selects aspects of those
theories so that it will helpthat person better profile
(30:17):
themselves. I see it as aconceptual framework that a
person might be building oftheir own practice. If you want
to get more in terms of thatpedagogy and educational base.
So I see mine as a conceptualframework. And if I'm doing one
portfolio for HDR, which I sortof have one, but it's still a
bit separate to my academicidentity, because if they said,
(30:39):
"Submit your portfolio," I wouldhave it compartmentalised. I
might have my PhD study andresearch. I might have my
independent scholar or communityengagement, and they may be
doorways to go in and have alook, but my journey might look
quite different. And certainly,if I had drawings and conceptual
diagrams in there, it would befor my own benefit, so they may
be locked off so I could remindmyself it is informed by a
(31:03):
conceptual framework or aspectsof theoretical, educational
theory.
Kristina Hoeppner (31:07):
That Bernie, really is the beauty of the
portfolio. Because while weoften talk about 'the'
portfolio, it is actuallymultiple portfolios. Because, as
you say, you have a portfoliofor this, for that, you have
your public one on LinkedIn, butyou have a lot of other
reflections and thoughts andideas written down somewhere
(31:27):
else, and not everything needsto be public. Your portfolio
does not always just have to beshared with everyone or just
even a select group.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (31:35):
It's becoming interesting when you
look at a portfolio like system,like LinkedIn. You need a
professional one. It's sort ofset up so you can do the basics,
but you don't have tonecessarily put dates in, and
they're going to have youwritten off if you're older or
written off if you're abeginning academic because
people still make judgments.
That's the key thing. I thinkthat puts students on edge with
(31:55):
ePortfolios, and sometimes staffas well. They don't want to be
judged. But if you said to me,"Send me your ePortfolio, I need
to know what you've published orwhat your experience is," I'd
say to you, "Have a look atLinkedIn," or I'd say,
"Kristina, do you want me tosend you a link to a particular
part of it so that you can justhave a look at it?" And you'd
probably say, "Yeah, just sendme a link to part of it." So I
(32:20):
can do that pretty quickly.
Kristina Hoeppner (32:20):
It's a curation of your evidence and
your reflection.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (32:20):
That's something I perhaps wasn't as
good at, but I know how tocurate. And when I was doing my
application for my PhD, I wasjust able to send ePortfolio
links to answer certainquestions. There is a link to
other articles. Here are the topfive. So it was good.
Kristina Hoeppner (32:36):
Bernie, what do you wish everybody knew about
portfolios?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (32:41):
They're not scary, they're not things to
be avoided. They are things thatcan help you in many aspects of
life outside of career. They canshow what kind of person you
are, what kind of fit you arefor a job, but they can also
show you what kind of fit youmight be for an organisation, a
network, a particular role,something in the voluntary
sector that is needed. It's aliving evolving story with many
(33:05):
parts, some of which should beshared or can be shared, but not
all of them need to be shared.
Kristina Hoeppner (33:12):
Now before we go into our last three questions
in the quick answer round, let'sput in a short commercial break
and talk about the upcomingEportfolio Forum because that's
the annual event where you,Allison [Miller], Christine
[Slade], and many, many othersthat are on the committee bring
together practitioners,academics, and also researchers.
(33:34):
What's the focus of this year'sForum, and why should everybody
attend?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (33:39):
Two bits that stick out are resolution to
do something and revolution -change completely the way you
are approaching this. Those arethe things that resonate with
me. A revolution or aresolution, the resolution for
new people. Decide to do it,follow it through. There's help
available. This is a supportive,collegial education with high
(34:00):
profile people, colleagues ofmine, who also have dear friends
of mine, led by Allison Miller.
They bring a wealth ofexperience, but also a wealth of
support. Come if you want tomake a resolution to do
something different, if you wantto engage in a revolution, as in
completely turn your practice onits head and approach it
differently. That's what Irecommend.
Kristina Hoeppner (34:21):
And then also come along if you want to evolve
your own portfolio practice.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (34:26):
Oh yes, of course, if you want to evolve
your practice and learn aboutsome of the software programmes
and tools that can help yourealise what it is you need to
do. There are so many of them.
Look, having used Mahara andenjoyed using that. We were very
lucky at the previousinstitution, we had a wonderful
person there. He was a learningdesigner who I won't mention his
name because he probably doesn'twant me to mention his name. He
(34:48):
likes to be low key, but he dida great job there, working with
yourself and the Mahara group.
But also some of these otherpackages, while I might have
used them many years ago, and Imight. Have used them when I was
beginning. I like theaffordances of something more
flexible that I can take partsin and out of. I can use that if
I want, or I can keep itextremely simple and just have
(35:09):
it so it's almost a flat filethat I can use to bring things
in and out and then put intosomething like Mahara.
Kristina Hoeppner (35:17):
At the Forum, will people be able to find you
at the University of Tasmania,or are you like me going to be
one of the online participants?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (35:26):
I'll probably be online.
Kristina Hoeppner (35:28):
so we'll see if we can see each other online
on the 12th and 13th of November2025 then, and for everybody
else who can make it to theUniversity of Tasmania, then
they will have the opportunityto catch everybody in person,
and also have the hallway track.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (35:44):
It's a great time to go to Tasmania.
The weather is usually better,and it is worthwhile having a
look not just at the north, butat the south as well, if you
can. Lovely place.
Kristina Hoeppner (35:54):
It sure is a wonderful part of the country.
Now to our last three questions,the quick answer round, Bernie.
Which words or short phrases doyou use to describe portfolio
work?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (36:07):
I thought about this, and I decided,
diversified, informed, andprofessional.
Kristina Hoeppner (36:12):
Awesome. What tip do you have for learning
designers or instructors whocreate portfolio activities?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (36:19):
Oh, gosh.
Kristina Hoeppner (36:21):
So many, right?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (36:22):
There's so many. For a short sentence, I
would just encourage relate itto professional practice and
learning or career developmentbecause this will not only help
the people you're trying tosupport take this up, but it
will also give you some insightsinto things that perhaps, as a
learning designer, you may nothave had before. Because
although we work closely withlearning designers as academics,
(36:44):
sometimes we don't alwaysunderstand the nitty gritty and
the fine things that they dobehind the scenes. And
similarly, with us, it probablylooks sometimes that we've got
all this time on our hands to dostuff, but we don't, and I think
that would promote learning anda better understanding of what
it is that academics andstudents need.
Kristina Hoeppner (37:02):
Yeah and support that lifelong learning
that we do want to encourage.
Now, what is your advice forportfolio authors, be that your
students or fellow academics orany fellow practitioners?
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (37:16):
Start off with a question that you would
like to answer. It might be, howdo I profile my experience?
Start from there to start withsomething very, very simple. If
you're better doing lists, do alist of all your personal versus
all your professional that wouldbe the suggestion I would have.
Kristina Hoeppner (37:34):
Thank you so much. I really appreciate having
had the chance to chat with youtoday, Bernie, because
oftentimes we do see each otheronly at conferences. It's
fantastic to have learned moreabout your personal journey and
also your reflective practiceand how you marry that up with
your professional journey andprofessional path. So thank you
(37:56):
very much.
Marie 'Bernie' Fisher (37:57):
Thank you very much, Kristina.
Kristina Hoeppner (38:00):
Now over to our listeners. What do you want
to try in your own portfoliopractice? This was 'Create.
Share. Engage.' with Marie'Bernie' Fisher. Head to our
website, podcast.mahara.org,where you can find resources and
the transcript for this episode.
It would be great if you sharedour podcast with a colleague of
(38:21):
yours so they can listen aswell. Until then, create, share,
and engage.
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