August 12, 2025 • 28 mins
Dr Suzanne Schibeci is the Work-Integrated Learning Partner at Macquarie University in Sydney, Australia, supporting students, faculty, and employers with the administration and running of work-integrated learning (WIL) experiences.
In this episode, Sue shares how she's using portfolios to help her students reflect on their WIL experiences that take them outside of the university. She talks about what works for her and what some challenges are.
Resources
- AAEEBL Digital Ethics in ePortfolios Task Force
- Eportfolio Forum 2025: Revolution, Evolution, Resolution
- STAR method by Michael Pell
- Schibeci, S. (2025). Enabling students to identify and develop employability skills during work-integrated learning experiences. AAEEBL ePortfolio Review, Summer/Fall, 30–34.
Related episodes
- Mike Altieri: Use reflection bot Riff for deeper and more meaningful portfolio reflection
- Leticia Britos Cavagnaro: Make learning visible
- Mark Brady: Journal regularly for profound insight
Subscribe to the monthly newsletter about Mahara and portfolios.
Production information
Production: Catalyst IT
Host: Kristina Hoeppner
Artwork: Evonne Cheung
Music: The Mahara tune by Josh Woodward
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kristina Hoeppner (00:05):
Welcome to 'Create. Share. Engage.' This is
the podcast about portfolios forlearning and more for educators,
learning designers, and managerskeen on integrating portfolios
with their education andprofessional development
practices. 'Create. Share.
Engage.' is brought to you bythe Mahara team at Catalyst IT.
(00:25):
My name is Kristina Hoeppner.
Today I'm speaking with Dr SueSchibeci from Macquarie
University in Sydney inAustralia. She's been a member
of the AAEEBL Digital EthicsTask Force for a year now, and
I've had the pleasure of workingwith her over that time. So I'm
(00:46):
really excited to have thiscatch-up with her where she can
share more on her practice ofusing portfolios in
work-integrated learningcontexts. Welcome to the
Sue Schibeci (00:58):
Thanks so much, Kristina, for the invitation.
podcast, Sue.
Kristina Hoeppner (01:02):
Sue, what do you do at Macquarie University?
Sue Schibeci (01:05):
My official title is Work-Integrated Learning
Partner, and specificallywithin the sciences. The role is
to bring together ourwork-integrated learning
programme, which is compulsoryfor all undergraduate students
that will be the administrativeaspects of it. There's a lot of
(01:25):
administration withinwork-integrated learning, as
well as the partners. It's justforming relationships between
academics, partners, and theadministration of all of that.
Kristina Hoeppner (01:37):
When did you start using portfolios?
Sue Schibeci (01:39):
Portfolios, I've been using them since perhaps
2012 to 2013, and I actually didstart in Mahara. That was to do
with a course that I wasteaching at UNSW. It was a
professional development course,more or less, for students in
science. We were trying to getthe students to reflect on any
(02:03):
of the content that we hadwithin their professional
development and how they thoughtthat they were going with those.
Kristina Hoeppner (02:09):
You had spent a good time of your career at
University of New South Walesbefore moving to Macquarie,
right?
Sue Schibeci (02:16):
That's right. I still feel as if I'm a little
bit of a newbie because there'sbeen so many people that are so
adept. You, for example, all ofthe people within ePortfolios
Australia Organising Committee,those sort of committees,
there's so many people that arejust amazing practitioners of
ePortfolios.
Kristina Hoeppner (02:37):
Yeah. So our focus today, Sue, is looking at
the portfolio practice withinwork-integrated learning, your
speciality area. Previously tojoining Macquarie University,
you had used portfolios in thatcontext. Why are they part of
WIL (work-integrated learning)for you?
Sue Schibeci (02:59):
Work-integrated learning is essentially an
experiential learning process.
Fundamentally, part of thatexperiential learning cycle is
reflection. That reflectivepractice is really important for
students, and I'm specificallytalking about students here,
higher education students, tothink about how they're
developing in the particularprofessional skills and
(03:21):
attributes that they are tryingto develop within their
experience. Everybody reflects,you know, we do it naturally. We
think about what's happened,what we'll take away from it,
but that deliberate reflectionand thinking about the process
that you've just been through isreally important to further
development. So I guess atransformative aspect of
(03:44):
learning within an experience.
Kristina Hoeppner (03:49):
Which then also helps making it possible
for that learning to be madevisible and brought to the
forefront, so that thereflection doesn't just happen
in our head. As you say, we arereflecting all the time, we are
always changing how we've beendoing something based on prior
experience, but with theportfolio, we then, in a way,
externalise that from our mindand can also share it with
(04:11):
others.
Sue Schibeci (04:12):
That's, I think the really important thing is,
students will practice theirskills within a work-integrated
learning experience. What theycan do with that then, if they
record the evidence within aportfolio, they can bring it to
a work interview to actuallydemonstrate that they've
practised and they've developeda particular skill that is
(04:35):
required for that position atsome stage.
Kristina Hoeppner (04:39):
What does the portfolio look like in one of
the experiences that you'veguided your students in? How did
you integrate it? What are someof the practicalities that
somebody who hasn't usedportfolios for internships or
practicums or the like mightwant to explore?
Sue Schibeci (04:59):
So what I really like the students to do is for
them to first start to thinkabout what they want to get out
of the experience. So it's agoal setting exercise. They have
to think about the skills thatthey anticipate that they're
going to use. The thing aboutthat is they will use millions
more skills within thatexperience, but the way they can
(05:22):
focus is to have those goals atthe beginning, and it makes it
like a North Star. It keeps themanchored to a particular focus.
What then I do is get them tothink about those particular
skills and as they're goingthrough the experience to gather
evidence that they've practisedit, they've developed in it in
(05:45):
some way. So it can be thesmallest thing, but the process,
I think, is the most importantthing. So thinking about while
you're doing it, the oldreflection in practice. That
gives them the opportunity tochange direction, if need be, to
build upon it, if they'veactually achieved what their
(06:06):
original goal was, or to thinkabout a new direction. They have
those goals to begin with, andthey have that process, and that
gets them to reflect on howthey're doing within the
experience. That's my approachto setting ePortfolios within a
work-integrated learningexperience.
Kristina Hoeppner (06:26):
That can be quite a bit for the students to
do, to think about the goals andthen document their progress
throughout their internship. Andof course, some internships or
practicums are only a week ortwo, whereas others might be a
month or half a year long. Whatsupport measures do or did you
then have in place?
Sue Schibeci (06:46):
Yes, you're right in that that it's quite a lot of
work. My approach as theinstructor is to give them
regular feedback, to get them tothink about things, ask them
questions about the directionthat they're going in, is this
where you wanted to be at thisstage? Is there anything else
you can do to build on to it? Ido realise it's a lot of work
(07:09):
for them, but I think also it'sbeneficial in the end because
they've got that buildingprocess of how they're going
within that skill.
Kristina Hoeppner (07:19):
I love that you engage in that portfolio
with your students so that theyare not just creating the
portfolio and then you view it,but that you do have that
collaborative element in thereof giving feedback or making
comments, and they can thenrespond to that in order to
build on top of thatconversation, which then might
(07:40):
also lead them deeper into theirreflection.
Sue Schibeci (07:44):
Indeed, yes. When I think
be my difficulty within mycurrent role. I have had the
luxury of having students one onone. I was always able to do
that for individual students. Ithink there are perhaps ways of
(08:09):
engaging regularly throughout atwhatever scale. We just haven't
got there quite yet. I think AImight be the answer to that
[laughs], but we're stillexploring that at the moment.
Kristina Hoeppner (08:21):
Yeah, speaking of AI in the interview
with Prof Dr Mike Altieri fromOTH Amberg-Weiden, that is the
previous episode, he does usethe reflection bot Riff that was
developed by Dr Leticia BritosCavagnaro at the d.school at
Stanford University to help withthe reflection and personalise
the reflecting questions for hisstudents so that they get into
(08:46):
that deeper reflection. He givesan initial question, then the
students typically summarise,and then Riff asks questions
based on the reflective modeland therefore guides the
students more deeply into it sothat he, as instructor, doesn't
have to do that for every singlestudent or go with fixed
(09:08):
questions that he said didn'twork out so well for him.
Sue Schibeci (09:13):
Riff is something that I've been thinking about
since you introduced it to me,and how we could possibly make
some sort of model like thatthat we can give that feedback
continuously or regularly atleast. The problem with it is,
and it's probably just limitedby my imagination at the moment,
(09:34):
is work-integrated learningrequires assessment. The way to
do it, I think, is to use thatpart of it as some sort of
formative assessment, but you'reassigning some mark to it.
Working out how to do that usingan AI platform like Riff and
extracting some sort ofmeaningful grade level of
(09:57):
achievement, something like thatis what I'm currently thinking
about.
Kristina Hoeppner (10:01):
That is something that we can then
explore in year seven of theDigital Ethics Task Force in an
online workshop and see howothers have been doing that,
what others are thinking, andwhat possibilities might be
around that incorporation of theAI prompts and questions, and
then what the students have inthat reflection, whether they
(10:24):
use the summary or the entireconversation or summarise it
themselves or any of that.
Sue, you said you support yourstudents with feedback
questions, you read theirportfolios, and then ask them
further questions. Do you alsogive them something like a
template so that they know whatis expected of them to go into
(10:45):
their portfolio because it isalso tied to assessment tasks
for them?
Sue Schibeci (10:51):
I give them a rubric for the final mark. I'm
very torn about templatesbecause I'm torn between that
organic, creative, personalisedproduct at the end, or, you
know, as they're going through,and then against them being free
(11:11):
reign [laughs] and beingconfused and not being able to
focus with what they've got. Iguess what I'm saying is, I
hope, and I think it's worked inmost cases, I hope that the
goals at the beginning give themsome sort of framework to what
they're actually focusing on,along with the feedback. That
(11:33):
regular feedback, I think, isimportant because it's quite
bespoke. It's personalised towhat they're experiencing at
that time.
Kristina Hoeppner (11:41):
Templates, gosh. We've got the entire
spectrum from 'Yes, I lovetemplates' to 'No, I wouldn't
use it at all.' Yeah, it dependson the context that you are in,
also whether the creation of theportfolio from scratch is part
of the grade, or whether you aregoing for something like
compliance where you do need tohave certain elements in the
portfolio and the portfolio is abit more prescribed. So your
(12:05):
students, from what you haveseen, for them, it works not
going with a template. Have theygiven you any feedback in
general around creating aportfolio as part of their
work-integrated learningexperience?
Sue Schibeci (12:19):
Only anecdotal comments, usually to the point
of, 'It's been good, it's beenworthwhile me reflecting on what
I've done. I've learned thisabout myself.' That's usually in
(12:42):
I was doing that process, takinghim through what he was doing,
asking him questions, gettinghim to describe his activities,
and in one of her meetings, hesaid to me "that portfolio has
been such a help. I haverecently gone for a job, and
they asked me a question about aparticular skill that I had
(13:06):
practised, and I had it at myfingertips. It was there in my
portfolio, and I was able tojust virtually lift it out and
go, this is what I've done. Thisis how I practice this skill."
So I was extremely stoked aboutthat and his comment on that.
Generally, it's mixed, and Ithink that is something that's
(13:28):
important for the instructorupfront to say what this is for,
that this is what you can dowith it at a later stage.
Kristina Hoeppner (13:35):
I think it'll probably help when you have the
prior student experience and candraw on those examples to make
it more visible to the studentsof why the portfolio is an
important component of theirexperience, in order for them to
understand that from the get go,and not only realise that at the
end.
Sue Schibeci (13:56):
Yes, and that's what often happens. it's the end
product, rather than thatprocess trying to get them out
of that mindset is not easy.
Kristina Hoeppner (14:05):
We've talked a bit about the experience that
your students have, that theycreate the portfolio you engage
with them in regards tofeedback, what do the portfolios
then of your students look likesince you give them the
possibility to be creative witha portfolio in whichever way
they want to interact with it?
Do your students typically writetext, or do they also use
(14:28):
multimedia elements in theirportfolios?
Sue Schibeci (14:33):
Generally, they rely on text. I also encourage
them to contribute some sort ofevidence of that. I get them to
reflect using the STAR method.
So what their situation, theirtask, achievement and result
was, reflecting on theirparticular goal and some sort of
evidence that they've practisedit somehow. So for example, if
(14:54):
their goal was aboutprofessional written
communication, a lot of thestudents will reflect in that
structure, but will also giveyou a screenshot of their email,
for example, redacted, ofcourse, just to show that
they've practised it in aprofessional sense.
(15:15):
But I also feel that it'simportant for them to have that
evidence later on because youforget what you've done
[laughs]. I don't think theyrealise that that you do all of
these things and you forget thatyou've done it, and then you
could look back and go, 'Oh, Idid okay there. Or I can do it a
different way, and I can improveon it.'
(15:39):
I do encourage multimedia. It'sbeen an uphill battle. I have
had students have wanted toimprove their presentation
skills. They have filmedthemselves practising a
presentation a couple of timesand then reflected on their last
final presentation. That isreally powerful to show that
(16:00):
process improvement in thatskill.
Kristina Hoeppner (16:03):
That is for sure to have that evidence stand
next to the reflection becausethen everybody looking at the
portfolio can understand thereflection better and where the
student is coming from becausethey do see that evidence.
Sue Schibeci (16:17):
Contrastingly, a lot of students will upload a
photo, but you can't quite seethe connection. You really want
them to draw from that pictureexactly what they want to show,
and that's often missing.
Kristina Hoeppner (16:31):
That's then, I guess, where you come in by
giving feedback and encouragingthem to really look at it from
the reflective perspective.
Sue Schibeci (16:40):
Yes, you attempt to, and it usually works.
Kristina Hoeppner (16:44):
Now with work-integrated learning
experiences, besides you as thelecturer or as the tutor for the
experience, support staff, andthe students, we also have the
employer involved in the overallexperience. Do these employers
also give feedback?
Sue Schibeci (17:01):
Not specifically for the portfolio.
Work-integrated learning isstill very siloed with the three
different parties, and you tryto work together. The fact is
that the student goes out to theworkplace. You don't see them as
the facilitator or the academicor the university
(17:22):
rep(resentative), and you onlysee them in that intermittent
meeting or feedback opportunity.
The employer doesn't directlycomment on the portfolio. I
encourage students, as part oftheir evidence, to quote
feedback from their supervisorsor screenshot an email, for
example, and that is evidencethat they can reflect on.
Kristina Hoeppner (17:47):
Since the employers know that the students
create the portfolios, have someasked whether they can also take
a look at those portfolios?
Sue Schibeci (17:56):
I have never had an employer ask. That's probably
something that has been remissfrom my perspective, that
partner involvement inassessment and that development.
It's a bit tricky in so far asyou don't want to take up too
much of their time because theyare being generous in their time
by supervising the students, butyou are conscious that it'd be
(18:19):
really good to have their inputinto assessments and the
direction that the students aregoing in, the types of graduate
capabilities that the studentwould ideally come out with from
university.
Kristina Hoeppner (18:32):
Yeah. We've heard from other organisations
that use portfolios in WIL thatsome have the employers involved
where they can get feedback. Inother cases, they are
specifically not on theportfolios so that the students
can also more freely talk abouttheir experience in a company,
keeping it a safe space for thestudents to also seek support
(18:54):
from the academic supervisor ortutor in their experience. So I
think it does come down to whatthe goals of the portfolio are
and in how far the employersshould or should not be involved
in and then see how that fits,of course, into the overall
programme.
Sue Schibeci (19:13):
That's right.
You're encouraging that personalgrowth, that personal
reflection, and if they have toedit it because other people are
seeing it, it makes itdifficult.
Kristina Hoeppner (19:25):
Yeah, work-integrated learning
experiences are a part of theoverall academic experience that
students have at theinstitutions that you've worked
at. Do you have insight intowhether they now use reflection
more also in other subjects, orthat other courses draw on what
(19:45):
the students have learned intheir WIL experience, but also
what they have reflected on intheir portfolio?
Sue Schibeci (19:52):
One of my frustrations is that students
tend to use it just for thatparticular course, unit,
experience. I'm a great believerin foundational learning, so
building upon what you'veexperienced before, and I would
love to see it being used beyondjust this individual, siloed
(20:12):
experience. The institutionsthat I've worked in haven't
really encouraged that. Aprogramme wide use of portfolios
would be a wonderful thing.
Working out how to encouragethat, it's a bit of a goal for
me, I think.
Kristina Hoeppner (20:29):
Maybe we can also get some more of your
instructors along to EportfolioForum, which will be held in
November at the University ofTasmania, but will also be
online.
Sue Schibeci (20:40):
Yes.
Kristina Hoeppner (20:42):
Are there any other ideas that you have for
future use of portfolios in yourcontext?
Sue Schibeci (20:49):
A particular thing that I would like to work on at
the moment is for students toproduce their portfolio through
their experiences as a processdocument. So it will end up
being almost like a stream ofconsciousness, anything that's
happened, and it doesn't have tobe perfect, it doesn't have to
be precise, it doesn't have tobe edited. It can just be a
(21:13):
document where they can puttheir thoughts about what's
happened in that day. And I knowthat might be a bit onerous, and
I would try to make it a littlebit more accessible.
What the idea, of course, of aportfolio is that it's curated.
From that stream ofconsciousness document they can
actually bring across intoanother document something that
(21:36):
is curated that actuallydemonstrates their progress in a
particular skill that can beused within a job application,
for example, or to showcasesomething in particular that
they've achieved. That's the wayI am trying to think or the
direction I'm trying to go in.
The onerous nature ofcontributing each day to a
(21:58):
portfolio, it shouldn't be likethat. It should be almost like a
document where they can actuallycurate and transfer to another,
more beautiful looking documentthat can be used as the final
portfolio. That's the idea I'mtrying to work on.
Kristina Hoeppner (22:19):
It does rely on typing and writing. So I
wonder if the possibilities ofspeaking, recording it, and then
having it automaticallytranscribed, maybe that could
then help. Many, many years ago,I've heard of educators, it was
either WinTec or University ofWaikato, where they used
(22:41):
portfolios with nursingstudents, but instead of asking
them to write their portfolioentries, they were calling them
in. So they did an audiorecording. At that time, it was
via an actual phone call, and sothey built an audio repository
of their portfolios. What theeducator had found was that they
did get more of those immediatereactions in the portfolio. You
(23:05):
don't really want to get intotoo much hindsight and lose the
opportunity to help them througha situation. The nursing
students really got into thehabit of regularly reflecting
because they could be on a callwhile they were out and about,
rather than needing to sit infront of a computer and type.
Sue Schibeci (23:25):
It is restrictive, yes, and that's a great idea. It
was something that I imagined,that I'd hoped that some
students would do, that theywould just record a snippet just
after an incident, for example,or in their lunch break, or
something like that, and put itinto their portfolio as an
evidence of a particularhappening or progress or non
progress, of a particular skill.
Kristina Hoeppner (23:47):
Mark Brady, a student that I had interviewed,
he got into the practice ofwriting journal entries, really
on a regular basis, and thengoing over them and only sharing
the summary of those entriesthen as part of his portfolio,
along the lines what you hadalso mentioned earlier, reflect
regularly and then curate out ofthat which you then share.
Sue Schibeci (24:12):
That's a beautiful example. Nothing's new, is it
[laughs]? You could come up witha wonderful idea, and then it's
been done.
Kristina Hoeppner (24:20):
Yeah, yyou're right there, Sue, it has been
done, but I think these days, wedo have some other technical
possibilities to make it easierfor the students because we now
do have auto transcriptionpossibilities.
Sue Schibeci (24:33):
We discuss it a lot, the power of AI and what it
can do. And after all, it isanother tool. A tool is only as
good as the user. It can bedestructive, I guess, but it can
also really help with thatparticular task.
Kristina Hoeppner (24:52):
I do look forward to exploring some of
those scenarios more and how wecan use AI in portfolio
practice. Just to put in yetanother ad block for the
Eportfolio Forum, we will have aworkshop on that with Associate
Professor Dr Christine Sladefrom University of Queensland,
and Professor Dr Michael Sankey,who had come up with a whole
(25:15):
bunch of scenarios for AI use inPortfolio practice. And so
hopefully we can also exploresome of that in the context of
WIL to see what we might want totest out, what somebody might
have already done in order toget a better understanding what
are practical possibilities, howhas it already been done, and
(25:36):
where is more research and alsomore practical experience
needed?
Sue Schibeci (25:40):
I look forward to that, too.
Kristina Hoeppner (25:42):
Yeah, I look forward to having you on our
workshop, Sue.
Sue Schibeci (25:45):
I will attend.
Kristina Hoeppner (25:47):
So now to our last three questions, the quick
answer round. Which words do youuse to describe portfolio work?
Sue Schibeci (25:56):
Reflective, has to be, forward facing, and
transformative.
Kristina Hoeppner (26:03):
What tips do you have for learning designers
or instructors who createportfolio activities?
Sue Schibeci (26:10):
Focus on what you want the students to do and to
actually achieve. What happensis that we have to use them as
an assessment. So be reallyfocused on what you want them to
get out of it so that it doesn'tcompromise that personal touch
nor the creativity that astudent may put into their
(26:30):
portfolio.
Kristina Hoeppner (26:33):
Last but not least, what advice do you have
for your students, for theportfolio authors?
Sue Schibeci (26:39):
My advice and what I'd really like them to do is to
focus on their learning and theprocess that they're learning,
rather than what they achieve atthe end. It is a really great
tool to think about how you'relearning as you're going along
and using what you've learned inthe past as you're doing it in
the present.
Kristina Hoeppner (26:59):
Thank you so much, Sue, for these tips and
also for outlining your practicearound using portfolios in
work-integrated learningexperiences to help students
reflect on what they are doingoutside of their academic
context, and then bringing allthat knowledge and their
reflections and theirexperiences back to the
(27:22):
institution. Thank you so much.
Sue Schibeci (27:24):
Thank you, Kristina. It's a pleasure,
absolute pleasure.
Kristina Hoeppner (27:29):
Now over to our listeners. What do you want
to try in your own portfoliopractice? This was 'Create.
Share. Engage.' with Dr SueSchibeci. Head to our website,
podcast.mahara.org, where youcan find resources and the
transcript for this episode. Ournext episode will air in two
(27:52):
weeks. It would be wonderful ifyou told a colleague about it so
they can listen as well. Untilthen, create, share, and engage.
Welcome to 'Create. Share. Engage.' This is
the podcast about portfolios forlearning and more for educators,
learning designers, and managerskeen on integrating portfolios
with their education andprofessional development
practices. 'Create. Share.
Engage.' is brought to you bythe Mahara team at Catalyst IT.
(00:25):
My name is Kristina Hoeppner.
Today I'm speaking with Dr SueSchibeci from Macquarie
University in Sydney inAustralia. She's been a member
of the AAEEBL Digital EthicsTask Force for a year now, and
I've had the pleasure of workingwith her over that time. So I'm
(00:46):
really excited to have thiscatch-up with her where she can
share more on her practice ofusing portfolios in
work-integrated learningcontexts. Welcome to the
Sue Schibeci (00:58):
Thanks so much, Kristina, for the invitation.
podcast, Sue.
Kristina Hoeppner (01:02):
Sue, what do you do at Macquarie University?
Sue Schibeci (01:05):
My official title is Work-Integrated Learning
Partner, and specificallywithin the sciences. The role is
to bring together ourwork-integrated learning
programme, which is compulsoryfor all undergraduate students
that will be the administrativeaspects of it. There's a lot of
(01:25):
administration withinwork-integrated learning, as
well as the partners. It's justforming relationships between
academics, partners, and theadministration of all of that.
Kristina Hoeppner (01:37):
When did you start using portfolios?
Sue Schibeci (01:39):
Portfolios, I've been using them since perhaps
2012 to 2013, and I actually didstart in Mahara. That was to do
with a course that I wasteaching at UNSW. It was a
professional development course,more or less, for students in
science. We were trying to getthe students to reflect on any
(02:03):
of the content that we hadwithin their professional
development and how they thoughtthat they were going with those.
Kristina Hoeppner (02:09):
You had spent a good time of your career at
University of New South Walesbefore moving to Macquarie,
right?
Sue Schibeci (02:16):
That's right. I still feel as if I'm a little
bit of a newbie because there'sbeen so many people that are so
adept. You, for example, all ofthe people within ePortfolios
Australia Organising Committee,those sort of committees,
there's so many people that arejust amazing practitioners of
ePortfolios.
Kristina Hoeppner (02:37):
Yeah. So our focus today, Sue, is looking at
the portfolio practice withinwork-integrated learning, your
speciality area. Previously tojoining Macquarie University,
you had used portfolios in thatcontext. Why are they part of
WIL (work-integrated learning)for you?
Sue Schibeci (02:59):
Work-integrated learning is essentially an
experiential learning process.
Fundamentally, part of thatexperiential learning cycle is
reflection. That reflectivepractice is really important for
students, and I'm specificallytalking about students here,
higher education students, tothink about how they're
developing in the particularprofessional skills and
(03:21):
attributes that they are tryingto develop within their
experience. Everybody reflects,you know, we do it naturally. We
think about what's happened,what we'll take away from it,
but that deliberate reflectionand thinking about the process
that you've just been through isreally important to further
development. So I guess atransformative aspect of
(03:44):
learning within an experience.
Kristina Hoeppner (03:49):
Which then also helps making it possible
for that learning to be madevisible and brought to the
forefront, so that thereflection doesn't just happen
in our head. As you say, we arereflecting all the time, we are
always changing how we've beendoing something based on prior
experience, but with theportfolio, we then, in a way,
externalise that from our mindand can also share it with
(04:11):
others.
Sue Schibeci (04:12):
That's, I think the really important thing is,
students will practice theirskills within a work-integrated
learning experience. What theycan do with that then, if they
record the evidence within aportfolio, they can bring it to
a work interview to actuallydemonstrate that they've
practised and they've developeda particular skill that is
(04:35):
required for that position atsome stage.
Kristina Hoeppner (04:39):
What does the portfolio look like in one of
the experiences that you'veguided your students in? How did
you integrate it? What are someof the practicalities that
somebody who hasn't usedportfolios for internships or
practicums or the like mightwant to explore?
Sue Schibeci (04:59):
So what I really like the students to do is for
them to first start to thinkabout what they want to get out
of the experience. So it's agoal setting exercise. They have
to think about the skills thatthey anticipate that they're
going to use. The thing aboutthat is they will use millions
more skills within thatexperience, but the way they can
(05:22):
focus is to have those goals atthe beginning, and it makes it
like a North Star. It keeps themanchored to a particular focus.
What then I do is get them tothink about those particular
skills and as they're goingthrough the experience to gather
evidence that they've practisedit, they've developed in it in
(05:45):
some way. So it can be thesmallest thing, but the process,
I think, is the most importantthing. So thinking about while
you're doing it, the oldreflection in practice. That
gives them the opportunity tochange direction, if need be, to
build upon it, if they'veactually achieved what their
(06:06):
original goal was, or to thinkabout a new direction. They have
those goals to begin with, andthey have that process, and that
gets them to reflect on howthey're doing within the
experience. That's my approachto setting ePortfolios within a
work-integrated learningexperience.
Kristina Hoeppner (06:26):
That can be quite a bit for the students to
do, to think about the goals andthen document their progress
throughout their internship. Andof course, some internships or
practicums are only a week ortwo, whereas others might be a
month or half a year long. Whatsupport measures do or did you
then have in place?
Sue Schibeci (06:46):
Yes, you're right in that that it's quite a lot of
work. My approach as theinstructor is to give them
regular feedback, to get them tothink about things, ask them
questions about the directionthat they're going in, is this
where you wanted to be at thisstage? Is there anything else
you can do to build on to it? Ido realise it's a lot of work
(07:09):
for them, but I think also it'sbeneficial in the end because
they've got that buildingprocess of how they're going
within that skill.
Kristina Hoeppner (07:19):
I love that you engage in that portfolio
with your students so that theyare not just creating the
portfolio and then you view it,but that you do have that
collaborative element in thereof giving feedback or making
comments, and they can thenrespond to that in order to
build on top of thatconversation, which then might
(07:40):
also lead them deeper into theirreflection.
Sue Schibeci (07:44):
Indeed, yes. When I think
be my difficulty within mycurrent role. I have had the
luxury of having students one onone. I was always able to do
that for individual students. Ithink there are perhaps ways of
(08:09):
engaging regularly throughout atwhatever scale. We just haven't
got there quite yet. I think AImight be the answer to that
[laughs], but we're stillexploring that at the moment.
Kristina Hoeppner (08:21):
Yeah, speaking of AI in the interview
with Prof Dr Mike Altieri fromOTH Amberg-Weiden, that is the
previous episode, he does usethe reflection bot Riff that was
developed by Dr Leticia BritosCavagnaro at the d.school at
Stanford University to help withthe reflection and personalise
the reflecting questions for hisstudents so that they get into
(08:46):
that deeper reflection. He givesan initial question, then the
students typically summarise,and then Riff asks questions
based on the reflective modeland therefore guides the
students more deeply into it sothat he, as instructor, doesn't
have to do that for every singlestudent or go with fixed
(09:08):
questions that he said didn'twork out so well for him.
Sue Schibeci (09:13):
Riff is something that I've been thinking about
since you introduced it to me,and how we could possibly make
some sort of model like thatthat we can give that feedback
continuously or regularly atleast. The problem with it is,
and it's probably just limitedby my imagination at the moment,
(09:34):
is work-integrated learningrequires assessment. The way to
do it, I think, is to use thatpart of it as some sort of
formative assessment, but you'reassigning some mark to it.
Working out how to do that usingan AI platform like Riff and
extracting some sort ofmeaningful grade level of
(09:57):
achievement, something like thatis what I'm currently thinking
about.
Kristina Hoeppner (10:01):
That is something that we can then
explore in year seven of theDigital Ethics Task Force in an
online workshop and see howothers have been doing that,
what others are thinking, andwhat possibilities might be
around that incorporation of theAI prompts and questions, and
then what the students have inthat reflection, whether they
(10:24):
use the summary or the entireconversation or summarise it
themselves or any of that.
Sue, you said you support yourstudents with feedback
questions, you read theirportfolios, and then ask them
further questions. Do you alsogive them something like a
template so that they know whatis expected of them to go into
(10:45):
their portfolio because it isalso tied to assessment tasks
for them?
Sue Schibeci (10:51):
I give them a rubric for the final mark. I'm
very torn about templatesbecause I'm torn between that
organic, creative, personalisedproduct at the end, or, you
know, as they're going through,and then against them being free
(11:11):
reign [laughs] and beingconfused and not being able to
focus with what they've got. Iguess what I'm saying is, I
hope, and I think it's worked inmost cases, I hope that the
goals at the beginning give themsome sort of framework to what
they're actually focusing on,along with the feedback. That
(11:33):
regular feedback, I think, isimportant because it's quite
bespoke. It's personalised towhat they're experiencing at
that time.
Kristina Hoeppner (11:41):
Templates, gosh. We've got the entire
spectrum from 'Yes, I lovetemplates' to 'No, I wouldn't
use it at all.' Yeah, it dependson the context that you are in,
also whether the creation of theportfolio from scratch is part
of the grade, or whether you aregoing for something like
compliance where you do need tohave certain elements in the
portfolio and the portfolio is abit more prescribed. So your
(12:05):
students, from what you haveseen, for them, it works not
going with a template. Have theygiven you any feedback in
general around creating aportfolio as part of their
work-integrated learningexperience?
Sue Schibeci (12:19):
Only anecdotal comments, usually to the point
of, 'It's been good, it's beenworthwhile me reflecting on what
I've done. I've learned thisabout myself.' That's usually in
(12:42):
I was doing that process, takinghim through what he was doing,
asking him questions, gettinghim to describe his activities,
and in one of her meetings, hesaid to me "that portfolio has
been such a help. I haverecently gone for a job, and
they asked me a question about aparticular skill that I had
(13:06):
practised, and I had it at myfingertips. It was there in my
portfolio, and I was able tojust virtually lift it out and
go, this is what I've done. Thisis how I practice this skill."
So I was extremely stoked aboutthat and his comment on that.
Generally, it's mixed, and Ithink that is something that's
(13:28):
important for the instructorupfront to say what this is for,
that this is what you can dowith it at a later stage.
Kristina Hoeppner (13:35):
I think it'll probably help when you have the
prior student experience and candraw on those examples to make
it more visible to the studentsof why the portfolio is an
important component of theirexperience, in order for them to
understand that from the get go,and not only realise that at the
end.
Sue Schibeci (13:56):
Yes, and that's what often happens. it's the end
product, rather than thatprocess trying to get them out
of that mindset is not easy.
Kristina Hoeppner (14:05):
We've talked a bit about the experience that
your students have, that theycreate the portfolio you engage
with them in regards tofeedback, what do the portfolios
then of your students look likesince you give them the
possibility to be creative witha portfolio in whichever way
they want to interact with it?
Do your students typically writetext, or do they also use
(14:28):
multimedia elements in theirportfolios?
Sue Schibeci (14:33):
Generally, they rely on text. I also encourage
them to contribute some sort ofevidence of that. I get them to
reflect using the STAR method.
So what their situation, theirtask, achievement and result
was, reflecting on theirparticular goal and some sort of
evidence that they've practisedit somehow. So for example, if
(14:54):
their goal was aboutprofessional written
communication, a lot of thestudents will reflect in that
structure, but will also giveyou a screenshot of their email,
for example, redacted, ofcourse, just to show that
they've practised it in aprofessional sense.
(15:15):
But I also feel that it'simportant for them to have that
evidence later on because youforget what you've done
[laughs]. I don't think theyrealise that that you do all of
these things and you forget thatyou've done it, and then you
could look back and go, 'Oh, Idid okay there. Or I can do it a
different way, and I can improveon it.'
(15:39):
I do encourage multimedia. It'sbeen an uphill battle. I have
had students have wanted toimprove their presentation
skills. They have filmedthemselves practising a
presentation a couple of timesand then reflected on their last
final presentation. That isreally powerful to show that
(16:00):
process improvement in thatskill.
Kristina Hoeppner (16:03):
That is for sure to have that evidence stand
next to the reflection becausethen everybody looking at the
portfolio can understand thereflection better and where the
student is coming from becausethey do see that evidence.
Sue Schibeci (16:17):
Contrastingly, a lot of students will upload a
photo, but you can't quite seethe connection. You really want
them to draw from that pictureexactly what they want to show,
and that's often missing.
Kristina Hoeppner (16:31):
That's then, I guess, where you come in by
giving feedback and encouragingthem to really look at it from
the reflective perspective.
Sue Schibeci (16:40):
Yes, you attempt to, and it usually works.
Kristina Hoeppner (16:44):
Now with work-integrated learning
experiences, besides you as thelecturer or as the tutor for the
experience, support staff, andthe students, we also have the
employer involved in the overallexperience. Do these employers
also give feedback?
Sue Schibeci (17:01):
Not specifically for the portfolio.
Work-integrated learning isstill very siloed with the three
different parties, and you tryto work together. The fact is
that the student goes out to theworkplace. You don't see them as
the facilitator or the academicor the university
(17:22):
rep(resentative), and you onlysee them in that intermittent
meeting or feedback opportunity.
The employer doesn't directlycomment on the portfolio. I
encourage students, as part oftheir evidence, to quote
feedback from their supervisorsor screenshot an email, for
example, and that is evidencethat they can reflect on.
Kristina Hoeppner (17:47):
Since the employers know that the students
create the portfolios, have someasked whether they can also take
a look at those portfolios?
Sue Schibeci (17:56):
I have never had an employer ask. That's probably
something that has been remissfrom my perspective, that
partner involvement inassessment and that development.
It's a bit tricky in so far asyou don't want to take up too
much of their time because theyare being generous in their time
by supervising the students, butyou are conscious that it'd be
(18:19):
really good to have their inputinto assessments and the
direction that the students aregoing in, the types of graduate
capabilities that the studentwould ideally come out with from
university.
Kristina Hoeppner (18:32):
Yeah. We've heard from other organisations
that use portfolios in WIL thatsome have the employers involved
where they can get feedback. Inother cases, they are
specifically not on theportfolios so that the students
can also more freely talk abouttheir experience in a company,
keeping it a safe space for thestudents to also seek support
(18:54):
from the academic supervisor ortutor in their experience. So I
think it does come down to whatthe goals of the portfolio are
and in how far the employersshould or should not be involved
in and then see how that fits,of course, into the overall
programme.
Sue Schibeci (19:13):
That's right.
You're encouraging that personalgrowth, that personal
reflection, and if they have toedit it because other people are
seeing it, it makes itdifficult.
Kristina Hoeppner (19:25):
Yeah, work-integrated learning
experiences are a part of theoverall academic experience that
students have at theinstitutions that you've worked
at. Do you have insight intowhether they now use reflection
more also in other subjects, orthat other courses draw on what
(19:45):
the students have learned intheir WIL experience, but also
what they have reflected on intheir portfolio?
Sue Schibeci (19:52):
One of my frustrations is that students
tend to use it just for thatparticular course, unit,
experience. I'm a great believerin foundational learning, so
building upon what you'veexperienced before, and I would
love to see it being used beyondjust this individual, siloed
(20:12):
experience. The institutionsthat I've worked in haven't
really encouraged that. Aprogramme wide use of portfolios
would be a wonderful thing.
Working out how to encouragethat, it's a bit of a goal for
me, I think.
Kristina Hoeppner (20:29):
Maybe we can also get some more of your
instructors along to EportfolioForum, which will be held in
November at the University ofTasmania, but will also be
online.
Sue Schibeci (20:40):
Yes.
Kristina Hoeppner (20:42):
Are there any other ideas that you have for
future use of portfolios in yourcontext?
Sue Schibeci (20:49):
A particular thing that I would like to work on at
the moment is for students toproduce their portfolio through
their experiences as a processdocument. So it will end up
being almost like a stream ofconsciousness, anything that's
happened, and it doesn't have tobe perfect, it doesn't have to
be precise, it doesn't have tobe edited. It can just be a
(21:13):
document where they can puttheir thoughts about what's
happened in that day. And I knowthat might be a bit onerous, and
I would try to make it a littlebit more accessible.
What the idea, of course, of aportfolio is that it's curated.
From that stream ofconsciousness document they can
actually bring across intoanother document something that
(21:36):
is curated that actuallydemonstrates their progress in a
particular skill that can beused within a job application,
for example, or to showcasesomething in particular that
they've achieved. That's the wayI am trying to think or the
direction I'm trying to go in.
The onerous nature ofcontributing each day to a
(21:58):
portfolio, it shouldn't be likethat. It should be almost like a
document where they can actuallycurate and transfer to another,
more beautiful looking documentthat can be used as the final
portfolio. That's the idea I'mtrying to work on.
Kristina Hoeppner (22:19):
It does rely on typing and writing. So I
wonder if the possibilities ofspeaking, recording it, and then
having it automaticallytranscribed, maybe that could
then help. Many, many years ago,I've heard of educators, it was
either WinTec or University ofWaikato, where they used
(22:41):
portfolios with nursingstudents, but instead of asking
them to write their portfolioentries, they were calling them
in. So they did an audiorecording. At that time, it was
via an actual phone call, and sothey built an audio repository
of their portfolios. What theeducator had found was that they
did get more of those immediatereactions in the portfolio. You
(23:05):
don't really want to get intotoo much hindsight and lose the
opportunity to help them througha situation. The nursing
students really got into thehabit of regularly reflecting
because they could be on a callwhile they were out and about,
rather than needing to sit infront of a computer and type.
Sue Schibeci (23:25):
It is restrictive, yes, and that's a great idea. It
was something that I imagined,that I'd hoped that some
students would do, that theywould just record a snippet just
after an incident, for example,or in their lunch break, or
something like that, and put itinto their portfolio as an
evidence of a particularhappening or progress or non
progress, of a particular skill.
Kristina Hoeppner (23:47):
Mark Brady, a student that I had interviewed,
he got into the practice ofwriting journal entries, really
on a regular basis, and thengoing over them and only sharing
the summary of those entriesthen as part of his portfolio,
along the lines what you hadalso mentioned earlier, reflect
regularly and then curate out ofthat which you then share.
Sue Schibeci (24:12):
That's a beautiful example. Nothing's new, is it
[laughs]? You could come up witha wonderful idea, and then it's
been done.
Kristina Hoeppner (24:20):
Yeah, yyou're right there, Sue, it has been
done, but I think these days, wedo have some other technical
possibilities to make it easierfor the students because we now
do have auto transcriptionpossibilities.
Sue Schibeci (24:33):
We discuss it a lot, the power of AI and what it
can do. And after all, it isanother tool. A tool is only as
good as the user. It can bedestructive, I guess, but it can
also really help with thatparticular task.
Kristina Hoeppner (24:52):
I do look forward to exploring some of
those scenarios more and how wecan use AI in portfolio
practice. Just to put in yetanother ad block for the
Eportfolio Forum, we will have aworkshop on that with Associate
Professor Dr Christine Sladefrom University of Queensland,
and Professor Dr Michael Sankey,who had come up with a whole
(25:15):
bunch of scenarios for AI use inPortfolio practice. And so
hopefully we can also exploresome of that in the context of
WIL to see what we might want totest out, what somebody might
have already done in order toget a better understanding what
are practical possibilities, howhas it already been done, and
(25:36):
where is more research and alsomore practical experience
needed?
Sue Schibeci (25:40):
I look forward to that, too.
Kristina Hoeppner (25:42):
Yeah, I look forward to having you on our
workshop, Sue.
Sue Schibeci (25:45):
I will attend.
Kristina Hoeppner (25:47):
So now to our last three questions, the quick
answer round. Which words do youuse to describe portfolio work?
Sue Schibeci (25:56):
Reflective, has to be, forward facing, and
transformative.
Kristina Hoeppner (26:03):
What tips do you have for learning designers
or instructors who createportfolio activities?
Sue Schibeci (26:10):
Focus on what you want the students to do and to
actually achieve. What happensis that we have to use them as
an assessment. So be reallyfocused on what you want them to
get out of it so that it doesn'tcompromise that personal touch
nor the creativity that astudent may put into their
(26:30):
portfolio.
Kristina Hoeppner (26:33):
Last but not least, what advice do you have
for your students, for theportfolio authors?
Sue Schibeci (26:39):
My advice and what I'd really like them to do is to
focus on their learning and theprocess that they're learning,
rather than what they achieve atthe end. It is a really great
tool to think about how you'relearning as you're going along
and using what you've learned inthe past as you're doing it in
the present.
Kristina Hoeppner (26:59):
Thank you so much, Sue, for these tips and
also for outlining your practicearound using portfolios in
work-integrated learningexperiences to help students
reflect on what they are doingoutside of their academic
context, and then bringing allthat knowledge and their
reflections and theirexperiences back to the
(27:22):
institution. Thank you so much.
Sue Schibeci (27:24):
Thank you, Kristina. It's a pleasure,
absolute pleasure.
Kristina Hoeppner (27:29):
Now over to our listeners. What do you want
to try in your own portfoliopractice? This was 'Create.
Share. Engage.' with Dr SueSchibeci. Head to our website,
podcast.mahara.org, where youcan find resources and the
transcript for this episode. Ournext episode will air in two
(27:52):
weeks. It would be wonderful ifyou told a colleague about it so
they can listen as well. Untilthen, create, share, and engage.
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