October 13, 2025 • 46 mins
This episode challenges the myth that teachers need a diagnosis to teach well and offers practical ways to create a welcoming intake, read the learner in real time, and build trust with parents who value privacy. We share scripts, strategies, and a mindset shift: see the student, not the label.
• privacy and dignity as non‑negotiables
• welcoming intake that centers the learner
• improvisation and co‑composition as assessment
• lowering parent defenses with empathy
• labels as hypotheses, not prescriptions
• repertoire choice as motivation and access
• language that invites, not interrogates
• challenge to adapt teaching before seeking labels
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome back to the podcast.
I am delighted to be joinedtoday by my co-host and very
good friend Tara Mock.
Welcome Tara.
SPEAKER_01 (00:11):
Good morning.
How are you today?
SPEAKER_00 (00:13):
Oh, I'm so much better now that we get to talk.
Um, Tara was on the podcast afew episodes ago on episode 12,
which was a wonderful episode.
So if you haven't yet listened,make sure you go back and take a
listen because that was a reallyfun episode.
And it was.
It was got some really funthings in store for you today.
SPEAKER_01 (00:36):
Oh yeah, I might be feeling a little spicy about
this topic.
SPEAKER_00 (00:40):
Good.
Well, we're gonna get right intoit.
And today's episode, we're gonnafocus on one of the most asked
questions about neurodiversitythat I have ever received.
And Tara, I think it's one thatyou have received over and over
again.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_01 (01:00):
Uh yes, I see it all the time online in Facebook
groups, talking to teachers.
Um, in fact, I do a presentationfor groups really centered
around this particular topic.
Oh, it's very common.
Yeah, and I have pretty strongfeelings about it as a parent of
(01:22):
um young adult children who areneurodiverse.
And there's many aspects of thisissue to consider.
SPEAKER_00 (01:29):
Yes.
So, as you may have guessed fromTara's teaser, we're going to be
discussing some tips and mythson how to talk to parents of
neurodivergent learners and hownot to talk to them, as well as
general communication tips andthen that all-important
question.
(01:50):
Everybody wants to know, what doyou do when parents or students
do not share a diagnosis?
So we have a lot in store foryou today.
Tara, I thought this would be afun one to start with.
Do most of your studio familiesshare a diagnosis when you first
meet them?
(02:10):
Like if they're a new studentcoming to your studio, not a
trend, not a not a transfer ornot somebody you've taught
before, do they typically sharethat with you?
SPEAKER_01 (02:20):
No.
No, not not at all.
Um as part of the um, I don'treally call it an interview, I
just I call it a meet and greet.
So they can get to know me.
I tell them they need tointerview me as much as I um
talk with them.
And I will mention when I'mtalking about myself that I do
(02:43):
specialize in teaching studentswho are neurodiverse and may
have these diagnoses.
And sometimes, you know, most ofthe time they they don't respond
in any way.
Um, sometimes I will have aparent in the background, so if
the child can't see them,usually go well, they might like
(03:05):
nod or point at their kid.
So subtle communication, and Irespect that, and I note it, I
just kind of like wink or nod orsomething, right?
And and move on.
And that may be all theinformation that I get, and I am
great, I'm great with that, youknow.
Yeah, um, but it's really, it'susually pretty, pretty rare.
SPEAKER_00 (03:25):
Yeah, I mean, uh, kind of the same for me.
I I guess things have changedover the last probably five, ten
years in my studio, where now alot of people contacting me for
lessons say in their interestemail, hey, I have a kid with,
and they will list some of theirlearning challenges or maybe a
(03:46):
diagnosis like autism ordyslexia.
Um, but I think this is a bigmisconception that maybe
teachers feel like they're justbeing cheated by not knowing
this information.
But the reality is, even forthose of us who specialize in
teaching this population, like m99% of my studio is this
(04:08):
population, I still don't alwaysknow that information myself.
SPEAKER_01 (04:14):
And I I think we would both argue that you don't
you don't need to know.
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
Spoiler!
SPEAKER_01 (04:19):
Spoiler!
SPEAKER_00 (04:20):
Yes, you're still right.
SPEAKER_01 (04:22):
This is private information.
Yes.
Um this is private for theparent, this is private for the
student.
Um, as your student grows older,or these students, they may have
very strong feelings about whatinformation is shared and not
shared.
And I think we need to respectthat, and we need to respect the
(04:44):
privacy of the family.
Um you know, maybe this is astrong comparison, but it would
be like me walking into yourhome and like tell me what
psychiatric disorders you mighthave.
I need to know before I workwith you.
Do you have this issue and thisissue or diabetes or home?
(05:04):
Like, that's private, that'spersonal.
You have no business asking methat.
SPEAKER_00 (05:08):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (05:09):
And I it I that is a strong comparison, but that's
what it feels like.
Now a lot of teachers feel likemaybe they need to know so they
can better teach.
Um and I've even seen commentsor you know, in Facebook groups
(05:31):
where teachers will say if theyrefuse to disclose a diagnosis
with me, then I refuse to takethem into my studio.
SPEAKER_00 (05:39):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (05:40):
Number one, um, I think that's the one I feel very
strongly about, is when teacherssay that you don't know that
there is a diagnosis to evenshare.
Um, and number two, by trying tobe inclusive and teach students
who may have a diagnosis, you'reactually not being very
(06:01):
welcoming by giving them an orelse.
SPEAKER_00 (06:04):
Yeah.
And I mean, it's it's actuallyit can be a bit
counterintuitive.
And we're gonna do like thewhole end of our episode is
gonna be on all about that.
Like, what do we do?
What do we do when they don'tshare?
But you just brought upsomething so so accurate, that
(06:25):
whole aspect of being welcoming.
So this is something I get askeda lot, what do I ask, or what do
I do on that intake process forstudents, you know, for new
students or transfers that I'mgetting.
And this is something I havebeen thinking about for years
(06:46):
because I've worked in a lot ofdifferent music schools, like
youth conservatories that arevery, very serious and very
strict and very formal.
You know, I've worked incommunity music schools that are
a bit more relaxed.
I've worked in, you know, at myown studio for a very long time.
So yeah, what what thoughts doyou have on this, and then maybe
(07:08):
I'll share a couple?
SPEAKER_01 (07:11):
Um, I I enjoy the first meeting process, and I
actually block an hour of time.
SPEAKER_00 (07:22):
Oh, that's very generous.
I want to hear more about that.
SPEAKER_01 (07:26):
So I enjoy talking with the families and getting to
know them as a person.
I don't want to rush theexperience at all.
Um, I want the students, ifthey're pre-college students, I
want them to know that I'minterested in them.
SPEAKER_00 (07:42):
That's so important.
SPEAKER_01 (07:43):
Yeah, I don't want to talk over them.
I don't want to talk with theparents and ignore them.
Um, especially if they might beneurodivergent, they've already
gone to enough therapy anddoctor and teacher meetings
where they're being talked aboutand not to.
Yes.
And what really influenced thisum perspective is my daughter's
(08:06):
orthodontist.
We went to interview differentorthodontists, and the first one
that we went to, he talked withSavannah about the plan for her
treatment.
Not me.
SPEAKER_00 (08:19):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (08:20):
Her in the eyes.
And that was all she needed.
We actually didn't even goanywhere else to get a quote.
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (08:29):
Because that environment of welcoming her,
seeing her, made all of thedifference.
And I, it made a difference forme as a mom.
He saw her.
He wasn't just talking with meabout the details.
So I then applied that to mystudio.
I make sure that I engage withthe student.
(08:50):
And I do have a terrible memory.
So as we talk, I'll I'll pick upmy pad of paper or iPad or
whatever I'm using at the time,and I'll just look at the
student and I'll say, Do youmind if I take notes while we
chat?
I I just have a really badmemory sometimes.
And do you mind 100% of thetime?
Oh no, that's okay.
That you know, I don't mind atall.
(09:10):
And so we just talk about whatkind of music they love, what
kind of music they want to play,um, you know, what other things
do they do with their time, whathobbies.
And usually there is alwayssomething I can connect with.
Like, oh, I used to do karateclasses too, or oh, did you know
my daughter rides horses?
(09:32):
Oh, my son loves video games,and I try to find that point of
connection that we just ashumans tend to intuitively do,
not always intuitive toneurodivergent students, right?
But I try to find thatconnection point.
I talk with the parents also,like what kind of music
background do you have?
And then we in in the course ofthat conversation, we tend to
(09:54):
cover everything in the studiopolicy.
Oh, tell me about the piano thatyou have at home.
Oh, you need help finding one?
I'm happy to help you with that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
Um, and that's that's just really uh it speaks
to the need to see the human infront of you, see the student in
front of you.
And I totally agree that we dohave to be discerning in the
process of meeting and taking onnew families because it's very
(10:23):
easy as a private musician,private piano teacher to think,
I wonder if they're gonna hireme.
But really, you have to ensurethat it's a good fit for you,
too.
And in my communications withnew families, the emails and the
phone calls, I never do a meetupwith a family without emailing
(10:45):
and phone calling the parentsfirst.
That's where I assess theparents.
I want a couple differentinteractions with them by email,
by phone call.
I send them just a preliminarysurvey just to see if I think
I'm gonna be a good fit or ifthey're gonna be a good fit for
me because I don't want to wastetheir time.
Um, and I you really can tellright off a lot of red flags or
(11:09):
green flags, lots of one or theother.
But um I also do a meet andgreet.
I call it a meetup or or a chat,and that's where I talk to the
students.
I've already met with theparents online, uh Zoom or phone
call, so I know I'm okay fromwhat I know so far to work with
them, but I do agree we have tohave that kind of personal
(11:33):
connection, and also it's alittle bit ironic that so much
of what we're talking abouttoday, this what to do about
getting the diagnosisinformation.
Well, what have you done to getto know your student?
SPEAKER_01 (11:50):
100%, 100%, and there's so much in that
conversation, in that hour timeframe that I can I can read so
so to speak, about the student.
I'm I'm observing everything.
How well do they respond to me?
And you know, if if they're notverbalizing anything at all,
(12:12):
okay, maybe there might beselective mutism, maybe not.
They're just shy.
This is new, they're in a newplace.
SPEAKER_00 (12:18):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (12:18):
You know, but I can kind of tick things off in my
head.
The other thing I do in theinterview is um I try to not
make it um feel like a test oran exam.
Like you can do clapbacks andplaybacks and things like that,
but my number one thing that Ido, and I would love to know
what you do, Elizabeth, is I doimprovisation with them.
(12:39):
Oh I let them pick out maybe twonotes or three notes, poke the
keys, your suggestion there.
And just by playing in differentstyles, getting louder, getting
softer, I can assess in thatmoment so many things about the
student.
SPEAKER_00 (12:56):
Oh, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (12:58):
Um, I can, you know, make a mental note about what is
going to be a strength and aweakness, how it's just a very
powerful tool to useimprovisation.
But the best part aboutimprovising with them in the
interview is how their faceslight up.
That they created music withanother person and it sounded
(13:20):
amazing.
And that is like that fills mewith so much joy.
Those are my most favoritemoments is um just you you
didn't need anything on themusic stand, we didn't need
complicated instructions, justplay.
SPEAKER_00 (13:35):
Well, and then your students leave realizing instead
of focusing on an assessmentthat lists out okay, they're
unable to read music so far,they don't know what a quarter
note is, and all the things theydon't know yet, they leave
actually having experiencedmusic.
And I actually do somethingvery, very similar, uh, in which
(13:55):
we like compose a little piecetogether, and I'll often have
them.
I have these really cool things.
Um, we should probably givethese away as a freewhe at some
point, but yeah, I made theselittle pinwheels where um it's
like a little spinner that hasdifferent options for tempo,
mood, animals, dynamics, andwe'll just spin them and choose
(14:19):
like we might get rainy day, um,tiger, and largo with like
staccato articulations, but wewill literally make up a song
together trying to use thatimagery.
And if anybody's listening andthinking, wait a minute, I
thought you said that youshouldn't use, you know, be
(14:40):
careful or discerning when usingexcessive imagery.
Well, I want to see how theythink.
I really do.
I want to see how howcomfortable they are like taking
instructions from somebody.
How how comfortable are theyfollowing directions by trying
to do something that's a littleuncomfortable?
And I don't do that to stressthem out.
(15:01):
They usually think it'sabsolutely hilarious because I
always tell them, like, well,I've never had this combination
before either.
And I have never made up a songon the piano thinking about a
tiger walking through arainstorm on a Tuesday with the
tempo of Larga, which is veryslow.
But let's see what it soundslike.
Oh, it's Takato.
Uh, so let's see what it soundslike, and they always think it's
(15:24):
so funny.
SPEAKER_01 (15:26):
And I love that.
Tiger.
SPEAKER_00 (15:29):
Yes, exactly.
And sometimes they give it aname, like you know, they'll
give the tiger a name, and weekslater, if this student signs up
to take piano with me and wedecide to work together, weeks
later I'll be like, Hey, do youremember what we did in your
first lesson?
They're like, Yes, and theyrecount every detail, and they
have been playing it at home forweeks.
(15:50):
Um, but it's such a fun way toassess students.
Um, I think we should probablyI'm writing it down right now.
We should probably do a wholeepisode on that.
But you know, just and also it'svery powerful for the parents to
observe this just as anonlooker, you know.
(16:11):
Parents of neurodivergentstudents, and you can correct me
on this, or I'd love to hearyour input, but I feel like they
always have to be in thedriver's seat.
They're always advocating,they're always, no, this is how
they learn, no, it's thismedication, no, it's this
teacher.
We can't do that other class.
You know, they're always havingto stand up for their kid and
(16:32):
try to advocate that they arecapable, that they can
participate, and for them to beable to just observe this
process of their child takingall of this information I've
given them, but seeing how I canpresent it in a way that's not
overwhelming, and in a way thattheir child is going to be
(16:53):
successful.
That's that's pretty much a gamechanger.
SPEAKER_01 (16:58):
It is, and as a parent, like I I think of myself
sitting in those situations.
I'm I am primed and ready as amama bear because you get hurt
so often by rejections um orpeople who just don't understand
your student, and um so it feelslike I'm always on edge.
(17:22):
So to be able to observe apositive interaction is
life-giving beyond words, um,and then I lost my train of
thought.
I'm so scared.
SPEAKER_00 (17:34):
No, you're doing great, and I would imagine too
that in these, you know, phonecalls that I have with parents,
and I I'm guessing you'veprobably had some similar
situations, I can sometimes hearthe defensive tone in a parent's
voice.
Because again, like I shared,sometimes they will say in an
email, my six-year-old childwith autism, ADHD, dyslexia,
(17:59):
Tourette's, and dyspraxia, whenI have that phone call, I can
literally hear them in like toptiger mode.
And then as we start to talk,like their voice comes down, and
I can just I I've had firstphone calls with parents that
they have I can hear them likesobbing on the other end of the
(18:21):
line.
Like, just the fact that you'retaking my call, just the fact
that I saw on your website thatyou enjoy teaching kids who
don't learn in a traditional waymakes me feel like this might
not be a disaster.
SPEAKER_01 (18:36):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I sometimes what's helpful inthese conversations and what and
what brings down that level ofstress is like when I was doing
homeschool stuff, the parentswould always help come and ask
for help, like about thiscurriculum.
Well, they can't do this, theycan't do this, they do this,
(18:56):
they can't do this, can't dothis.
And I go, stop.
And I need you to take a deepbreath, and I want you to tell
me what you love about yourstudent.
What do they enjoy to do?
What are they really good at?
You know, and let letting aparent just brag about their kid
for a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (19:17):
That's beautiful.
That's beautiful.
SPEAKER_01 (19:20):
This is also helpful information as a piano teacher,
right?
If I'm saying to the student,like in the in-person interview,
hey, what do you enjoy doing?
You know, oh, I love to drawmental note, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (19:33):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (19:33):
Oh my gosh, I trains.
I could I could talk abouttrains all day, or maybe the
parent will say um, you know,something and and you can find
out a special interest, or maybethey love reading, or oh gosh, I
I'm on my dance competitionteam.
Well, then I'm alreadycataloging what analogies I can
use in the future, and they'regetting to share what they love
(19:53):
about their kid.
They're constantly talking aboutwhat their their kid can't do,
right?
Right, what IEP meetings andeverything else to be able to
talk about what they thrive inum is fantastic.
Like even yesterday I wastalking with my um my
hairstylist, and we were talkingabout our kids, and and um she
(20:16):
she has students who are herkids are neurodivergent, but one
um struggles academically, and Isaid I said to her, I bet he
works really well with hishands, doesn't he?
She's my gosh, he is incredible.
She was so excited to talkabout.
And then we subsequently startedtalking about the Temple Granted
(20:37):
book thinking uh that addressesall of that.
SPEAKER_00 (20:40):
So oh that's so neat, and I believe that is such
a a hidden gem and a reason formy student success, your student
success, anybody who enjoysteaching students who learn
differently, when your studentsand parents know that you don't
(21:01):
see them as a list of problemsto solve, it changes the entire
lesson experience for you andthem.
And so, I mean, I I want tolearn as much about my students
as possible in those initialconversations.
This is why I send out a littlesurvey to ask them about their
(21:24):
child.
What are they good at?
What's their favorite thing inschool?
What is their least favorite?
And I don't ask what they getthe best grades in.
What do they actually like?
What's their favorite hobby?
What's their favorite videogame?
What you know, I love that.
I love asking these thingsbecause it just not only shows
them that I'm interested, but ithelps us immediately start
(21:45):
having something in common thatthey have a really cool kid, you
know?
And I just think that helps tolower the defenses, but it also
opens up for these kinds ofconversations to be more
organic, like, hey, does yourchild, is there anything about
your child that I should knowthat will help me teach them
(22:07):
better?
unknown (22:08):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
I think I think wording matters.
What do you think?
SPEAKER_01 (22:12):
Yes, absolutely.
And I after you and I met andyou were talking about how you
asked that question, and it umI've been using it ever since,
and you helped me adjust it toum let parents know that um you
can share with me, it's gonna beconfidential and things like
that.
(22:33):
But that is a welcoming way toopen the conversation about
positives, about struggles,about anything else.
Most of the time, parents skipthe question.
I ask it every year in my surveythat goes out in every fall.
And you know, sometimes there'llbe a little something on there,
(22:55):
but most of the time, notanything.
But um I think it's important toknow for parents to know that
they can come talk to meanytime.
And that happened.
I've had parents, you know,they'll send their kid out and
they'll go sit in the car, andoh, they'll chat with me for
just a moment that they theyprivately share with me without
the student there, which I thinkis the best environment.
SPEAKER_00 (23:16):
Absolutely.
And I think this really kind ofleads us into why do you think
most teachers, especially theones that we have interacted
with, I I get this question atevery single presentation that I
give, virtual or in person atconferences for music teachers
(23:38):
meetings?
I don't believe I've ever givena presentation on neurodiversity
where I've not received thisquestion.
And you you do an entirepresentation on this question.
But why do you think so manyteachers are hung up on the, you
know, parents are refusing toshare a diagnosis with me?
You know, why do you thinkthere's such a hang-up about
(24:00):
that?
SPEAKER_01 (24:02):
There could be a variety of reasons.
It could be just as and I don'tmean this in a negative way, but
just a lack of confidence andknowing enough about that area
and that diagnosis or all ofthis, because so much is um uh
comorbidities you have happeningat the same time.
(24:24):
It's not it's not black andwhite, and so and I I think as
people we also want to putthings in a box, like, oh, these
are the students has ADHD.
Well, I wish I would have knownthat.
Well, it's it's likely you couldprobably see it, right, without
demanding the diagnosis, butthen putting them into these
(24:45):
different boxes when really itall overlaps, you know.
So I would venture to say justmaybe a lack of confidence.
Sometimes, and this might soundharsh, I I've gotten the
impression that teachers feellike they have a right to the
information.
SPEAKER_00 (24:59):
Yes, I have experienced that many times, and
I had a conversation with umsomebody, oh my, like eight, ten
years ago at a music conference,and you know, this area of
study, neurodiversity and piano,has really advanced.
And eight, ten years ago, it wasstill advancing, but in a more
(25:20):
like earlier stage, and that wasexactly the conversation I had.
Like, they are refusing to sharethis with me, and I know that my
teaching is very good, and I Icouldn't tell you the name of
this teacher, I have no idea, soI'm not divulging anything, but
it was like a very um I couldtell they were very frustrated,
and I honestly felt so badly forthem because I've been there,
(25:44):
I've had students that are notsomething's not working, and I
don't know what it is yet.
But this kind of entitled, like,I deserve a right to know.
If I'm an educator, then theyowe me the right.
I am so sorry, but you don't.
You you you actually alluded tothis earlier, and it's actually
(26:04):
something I was wanting to talkabout.
It's a matter of privacy.
SPEAKER_01 (26:09):
It is, it's privacy, it's it there's HIPAA rules, and
I don't know anything.
I'm not very knowledgeable aboutthat, but we have to respect the
privacy of the family and theparents and the students, right?
I have I I do talk about myyoung adult children, but I also
have permission from them totalk about certain things, but
(26:33):
there's certain things thatthey're like, nope, mom, that's
I really don't want to talkabout it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
That's off limits.
I don't feel comfortable.
SPEAKER_01 (26:39):
And I strongly respect her rights.
And I think in this age ofsocial media and videos and
phones, um especially when itfirst when I first got on
Facebook, I think it was, Idon't know, 2011 or something,
and um I was excited to sharephotos of my kids and tell funny
(27:00):
stories about them, you know,because as a it's kind of a
community, yeah.
And oh, these are all my friendsthat I get to be in touch with.
But now, like, would my kids nowbe okay with me sharing that
embarrassing story from whenthey were five?
SPEAKER_00 (27:16):
Perhaps not.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
Yes, so it and I know it's been a big topic of
conversation.
All that to say, it's it'sprivate information, you don't
have a right to it.
SPEAKER_00 (27:26):
Well, and in some cases, perhaps these parents
have not told their child.
Yes, I I have had so manystudents that I know just from
experience and and learning andresearch, that there are some
learning struggles going on,maybe some developmental
struggles going on, maybe someautism, I don't know.
(27:47):
There's some stuff happening.
And if I need to ask a parentabout a behavior that I'm
concerned about, which is awhole other topic, but that
they'll often say, like, ohwell, we actually haven't told
them, but I've had that happenmultiple times, so that's also a
reason perhaps why they haven'ttold you because they haven't
(28:09):
told their child.
SPEAKER_01 (28:11):
That's very, very true.
Um, we we did have aconversation about you know,
when was the right time to tellGabe about his diagnosis?
We feel strongly about um notusing it as a crutch, um, and to
instead you can do everythingthat you want to do, but you are
(28:33):
not going to use this as anexcuse.
Um, you know, you're gonna learnskills and things, and that's
that's a whole notherconversation.
Another possibility is theparents don't know themselves.
Oh they don't want to know.
Um, there was a certain periodof time where it had been
mentioned that we needed topursue a possible diagnosis, and
(28:56):
we were like, no.
Um it's it hurts as a parent.
It hurts that there might be apossibility.
This is not the right wording,but it's what it feels like,
that there might be somethingwrong with your kid.
SPEAKER_00 (29:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (29:09):
Because you dream of what your family's gonna look
like and what your kids aregonna be like, and then to to be
hit with the possibility thatyour child is going to struggle
in life, it is a lot to process,it is very emotional, right?
So um they may not even be awarethat there might be an issue,
you know.
We might be able to seesomething because we have
(29:31):
experience with this, right?
And they just might not beaware, you know, maybe it's a
trait that's been in theirfamily for ages, which a lot of
it's genetic, right?
SPEAKER_00 (29:39):
Yes, and that is so, so true.
And I think honestly, a lot ofthis points back to what is the
reason that we teachers feellike we need a diagnosis?
I think that's a really greatquestion to ask ourselves.
And I don't know that there's aright or wrong answer, but For
(30:00):
me, one of the reasons why itcan be helpful is to help me see
something that I'm not I don'tI'm not understanding.
And I think that is the mainreason just for me to see maybe
these things are connected in away that I'm not aware of yet.
SPEAKER_01 (30:18):
Yeah, and that's this is where it's helpful to
talk to other teachers as well.
This is the behavior that I'mobserving.
What do you think is happening?
So it is it is helpful whenparents do share.
I thank them for sharing with meand I reassure them I will keep
it confidential.
Um and it it kind of gives me abasis or specific things to
(30:40):
plan.
But if they don't, I am stillgoing to, and this you taught me
this was I'm still going toteach that student as if they
might have that diagnosis.
Right.
No, I'm going to try, I'm goingto try this approach and see
what happens.
And I'm going to learn from thatstudent what works best and what
(31:03):
doesn't.
And it's it's very unique witheach and every student.
SPEAKER_00 (31:08):
Well, and this is a huge reason why it can be
frustrating for teachers who askquestions about this topic
because we don't have a methodseries for autism.
We don't have a method seriesfor ADHD.
And there's a really good reasonfor that.
And this actually, TempleGrandin, if you're listening, we
(31:31):
love you.
Um two members of your fan clubhere.
But in this book club, we'redoing the Piano Teachers Book
Club, Visual Thinking is ourbook.
And she does an enormous chapterabout complimentary minds.
First of all, what a greatchapter title, chapter four,
complimentary minds.
(31:51):
But a huge portion of thatchapter is what good are the
labels?
And she as an autistic womanshares how conflicting it is for
her to be identified as autisticwhen the way she experiences
autism is so vastly differentfrom how others might because
(32:15):
that spectrum is so wide.
So for us as teachers, whenparents share with us, my child
has a diagnosis of autism, thatkind of helps me some things to
look out for, like you justsaid, but in no way does it tell
me how to teach their child.
SPEAKER_01 (32:36):
Mm-mm.
Not at all.
There could be so manyopposites.
They might be creative, verycreative, and use great imagery.
And yeah, they might not at all.
SPEAKER_00 (32:47):
They might not at all.
SPEAKER_01 (32:49):
They might be sensory seeking or they might be
sensory avoidant.
You know, it's it is so broad.
Yes.
And it in actuality, it's somuch easier to me.
Maybe this is a controversialtake, but sometimes I just it's
okay if I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (33:06):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (33:06):
You know, maybe it's helpful if I don't know.
Yes.
You know, because I can takeeach student for who they are
and learn about them, discoverwho they are as a person, you
know.
Another thought is that if werefuse to accept students into
our studios unless a diagnosisis shared, which I've seen that
comment multiple times onFacebook, it upsets me.
(33:30):
Because in the course of saying,Oh yes, I'm an inclusive teacher
and I can teach different umneurotypes, um, but you can't
come into my studio unless youreveal a diagnosis, you've
actually instead of becominginclusive, you've been not
welcoming.
SPEAKER_00 (33:47):
Oh, it's very exclusive.
SPEAKER_01 (33:49):
Yeah, and I think it by doing that, you're really
closing the door.
I would walk away.
I honestly, as a parent, if Isaw that kind of policy, I'd be
like, no, because that meansyou're not going to see my kid,
you're going to see theirlabels.
SPEAKER_00 (34:06):
Oh, yes.
And this is not a I'm not asales y person, but everything
we're talking about right now iswhy I decided to start this blog
and this podcast.
Because I there's just so muchmisinformation and myths and
misconceptions aboutneurodiversity, which is what
(34:29):
this whole podcast season'sabout.
And I feel like teachers are sofrustrated when they when they
hear, like, oh, my student hasautism, what method should I
use?
I'm like, any.
Just try one.
And my student has dyslexia.
Which method should I use?
Any.
Just try it.
Because there's if anybodyguarantees you that they have
(34:52):
all the answers for teaching astudent with whatever label, you
need to be very skeptical.
That and that sounds harsh.
SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
But no, it's not harsh at all.
I think we do need to be directwith these things.
I think sometimes when we'vebeen teaching for so long a
certain way, it's hard to changehow we teach.
Um, and we need to be open tolearning, always, always
learning and changing.
I don't care if I'm teachingalmost 30 years, I'm still
(35:23):
trying to do better.
And I'm not saying that to bragabout myself, but there are
areas where I can definitelyimprove and do better, you know.
Every time I talk to a newteacher and they share an idea,
and I go, oh, that is brilliant!I can try that, you know.
Uh so I love learning from otherteachers and learning as I go
(35:44):
and getting better at what I do.
Um, it's it's a fun process, butmore important is seeing the
student for who they are,welcoming them into your space,
helping them feel valued, um,and that you see them, not the
label.
SPEAKER_00 (36:03):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (36:04):
Um, I think it I think it's so vastly, vastly
important.
SPEAKER_00 (36:09):
It is, and it really comes down to the basis of our
pedagogy.
When we are teaching a student,you are not actually teaching
Scott Joplin, you're notactually teaching WC or even
Randall Faber.
You are teaching Johnny orSusie, who's sitting at your
piano, and they happen to beplaying music by that composer.
(36:32):
And that is the essence of whatwe're talking about today, that
it's a huge big fatmisconception that you are
ill-equipped to teach aneurodivergent student unless
you know their label.
Yes.
It's a huge big fatmisconception.
SPEAKER_01 (36:49):
It is, it is.
And I, you know, challengeyourself to just to start
learning about the differentdiagnoses and what it takes.
Just learn about it.
This is why, you know, this thispodcast and blog and everything
exists, like you said.
Um, I would even total sidenote, but I would even challenge
(37:11):
focusing on different composerslike Joplin or Bach or whoever.
Um, and I know there's a wholeschool of thought about this,
and I see teachers say all thetime, oh no, no, no, I'm not
teaching any pop music.
Are you kidding?
No, no Taylor Swift in mystudio.
But let me tell you, whenstudents are able to play music
(37:32):
that they love and they arefamiliar with, it is highly
motivating.
And this is a lesson that I havelearned this year.
I have um I have a couplestudents who love Taylor Swift
and they're playing every singlesong in the book, and what I
have noticed in the process istheir rhythm has improved
(37:53):
exponentially, their sightreading, it is remarkable, and
this is a whole nother podcast.
It is.
SPEAKER_00 (38:00):
We'll have to do an episode about this because I
think that is a wonderful thingto tap into that actually goes
back to what we were talkingabout about the intake process,
getting to know your student.
So we've had a lot of thoughtstoday.
We we've shared a lot of Taralikes to call them spicy takes,
and I love that term about ourthoughts on knowing the
(38:25):
diagnosis, what to do, how totalk to parents, and really the
crux of the matter is know yourstudent and know your pedagogy.
Be confident in your teachingand then learn your student.
I think that's what it comesdown to.
SPEAKER_01 (38:39):
See the student, just see the student for who
they are, like the orthodontistsdid with my shout out to Dr.
McNutt and Clayton, NorthCarolina.
But um watching him engage withSavannah and seeing her um
changed what I do a hundredpercent.
Um, I think we need to see thestudent and what they love and
what they know, what they'refamiliar with, because that's
(39:02):
gonna tie into what they're notfamiliar with yet.
SPEAKER_00 (39:05):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (39:05):
And that's what we do.
SPEAKER_00 (39:07):
Yes, that's what we do.
Um, so we want to challenge youif you have students that you're
teaching, something maybe isn'tgoing well in your lessons, or
something just doesn't feelquite right, and you're itching
to ask the parent about adiagnosis.
Before you do that, and beforeyou go down that rabbit trail,
(39:30):
really learn your student.
Learn how they learn, teach howthey learn rather than how you
feel comfortable teaching.
And instead of relying on theirlabel, see what you can do to
meet them where they are and notwhere you want them to be.
So that's what we that's what wewant to challenge you with
(39:52):
today.
Before we jump into our tinyteaching tip to wrap this up
today, I want to thank anybodywho has taken time to leave a
review of the podcast this week.
That is so very kind of you.
It takes just a few seconds.
Um, I'm told by the folks atBuzzSprout who host our podcast
(40:13):
that doing a review on Apple isa bit more um accurate and a bit
more helpful.
So if you can just tap thatbutton and leave a review and
even just say something youenjoy, um, which episode was
your favorite?
A very quick this can be like a10-second process, 20-second
process.
But that means so much becausethen Apple and Buzz Sprout and
(40:36):
Spotify will recommend thepodcast to other people who
might enjoy it.
So, thank you for taking time todo that.
And now our tiny teaching tipcomes from Tara.
So, Tara, will you give us ourtiny teaching tip, something
that you've been doing this weekthat both you and your students
have been loving in lessons?
SPEAKER_01 (40:57):
Oh man, we've been going through um a list of music
to play that sounds likeHalloween, sounds scary one each
week.
Um, Chrissy Ricker had it on herblog, and we've enjoyed
listening every week to a newpiece.
This week was Moonlight Sonata.
I don't care how popular it is,it is my absolute favorite
piece.
SPEAKER_00 (41:17):
I love it too in the world.
SPEAKER_01 (41:19):
Um, and so I told them, you know, as they come in,
we talk about Beethoven a littlebit, and then I say, Well, I'm
gonna play for you.
Now, this was scary for mebecause I was like, oh my gosh,
I'm taking less in time, but no,this is a great listening
activity.
I printed a coloring sheet and Ihad coloring pencils available,
(41:42):
but each and every time I haveplayed it, I have loved it.
It has renewed my joy so much inmusic, but they also get to
experience a live performance.
And even my students who mightbe a little fidgety, I mean dead
silent in my studio.
They haven't even some havecolored, some haven't.
(42:04):
And even one sweet mom was like,Oh my goodness, I have never
heard that played live before.
And so I yeah, so I think myteaching tip is play for your
students.
SPEAKER_00 (42:15):
You know, that shows a good one.
SPEAKER_01 (42:18):
What you love, let them experience a live
performance, let them experienceseeing you make a mistake, you
know.
Let them um just their livemusic is very, very special and
to feel that music wrap aroundyou.
And I think I had one student, II think he was gonna cry at the
end.
Oh my goodness.
(42:39):
I said, Well, what did youimagine as you listened?
And he goes, It was very sad.
It was a little sad, and I thinkit just kind of like even now as
I think about that conversation,I just want to cry because you
know, my mama heart was like,Oh, I just I just need to hug
(43:00):
you, it's okay.
It wasn't that sad, it's allright, don't worry.
SPEAKER_00 (43:04):
Oh, that's such a good tip though.
Make sure you play for yourstudents.
Oh, that's an excellent tinyteaching tip.
That's actually a big teachingtip.
So thank you for sharing thatwith us.
SPEAKER_01 (43:15):
And and I think they sometimes students need to see
that you're good at what you do,and this is something that they
can strive for.
SPEAKER_00 (43:24):
Um and make it.
Yes.
Oh, thank you so much forsharing that, Tara.
And thank you for being myco-host today.
This was very fun.
SPEAKER_01 (43:34):
I love it.
It is so much fun.
I'm sorry for all the rabbittrails.
SPEAKER_00 (43:38):
It is quite alright.
We love the rabbit trails, andwe want to thank you for taking
time to spend time with uslearning about piano teaching
and neurodiversity andrethinking how we can get to
know our very special students.
So, thank you for taking time tolisten, and we will look forward
to being back with you nextweek.
SPEAKER_01 (44:00):
Yep, it sounds fun.
SPEAKER_00 (44:01):
Bye, Tara.
SPEAKER_01 (44:02):
Bye.
Welcome back to the podcast.
I am delighted to be joinedtoday by my co-host and very
good friend Tara Mock.
Welcome Tara.
SPEAKER_01 (00:11):
Good morning.
How are you today?
SPEAKER_00 (00:13):
Oh, I'm so much better now that we get to talk.
Um, Tara was on the podcast afew episodes ago on episode 12,
which was a wonderful episode.
So if you haven't yet listened,make sure you go back and take a
listen because that was a reallyfun episode.
And it was.
It was got some really funthings in store for you today.
SPEAKER_01 (00:36):
Oh yeah, I might be feeling a little spicy about
this topic.
SPEAKER_00 (00:40):
Good.
Well, we're gonna get right intoit.
And today's episode, we're gonnafocus on one of the most asked
questions about neurodiversitythat I have ever received.
And Tara, I think it's one thatyou have received over and over
again.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_01 (01:00):
Uh yes, I see it all the time online in Facebook
groups, talking to teachers.
Um, in fact, I do a presentationfor groups really centered
around this particular topic.
Oh, it's very common.
Yeah, and I have pretty strongfeelings about it as a parent of
(01:22):
um young adult children who areneurodiverse.
And there's many aspects of thisissue to consider.
SPEAKER_00 (01:29):
Yes.
So, as you may have guessed fromTara's teaser, we're going to be
discussing some tips and mythson how to talk to parents of
neurodivergent learners and hownot to talk to them, as well as
general communication tips andthen that all-important
question.
(01:50):
Everybody wants to know, what doyou do when parents or students
do not share a diagnosis?
So we have a lot in store foryou today.
Tara, I thought this would be afun one to start with.
Do most of your studio familiesshare a diagnosis when you first
meet them?
(02:10):
Like if they're a new studentcoming to your studio, not a
trend, not a not a transfer ornot somebody you've taught
before, do they typically sharethat with you?
SPEAKER_01 (02:20):
No.
No, not not at all.
Um as part of the um, I don'treally call it an interview, I
just I call it a meet and greet.
So they can get to know me.
I tell them they need tointerview me as much as I um
talk with them.
And I will mention when I'mtalking about myself that I do
(02:43):
specialize in teaching studentswho are neurodiverse and may
have these diagnoses.
And sometimes, you know, most ofthe time they they don't respond
in any way.
Um, sometimes I will have aparent in the background, so if
the child can't see them,usually go well, they might like
(03:05):
nod or point at their kid.
So subtle communication, and Irespect that, and I note it, I
just kind of like wink or nod orsomething, right?
And and move on.
And that may be all theinformation that I get, and I am
great, I'm great with that, youknow.
Yeah, um, but it's really, it'susually pretty, pretty rare.
SPEAKER_00 (03:25):
Yeah, I mean, uh, kind of the same for me.
I I guess things have changedover the last probably five, ten
years in my studio, where now alot of people contacting me for
lessons say in their interestemail, hey, I have a kid with,
and they will list some of theirlearning challenges or maybe a
(03:46):
diagnosis like autism ordyslexia.
Um, but I think this is a bigmisconception that maybe
teachers feel like they're justbeing cheated by not knowing
this information.
But the reality is, even forthose of us who specialize in
teaching this population, like m99% of my studio is this
(04:08):
population, I still don't alwaysknow that information myself.
SPEAKER_01 (04:14):
And I I think we would both argue that you don't
you don't need to know.
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
Spoiler!
SPEAKER_01 (04:19):
Spoiler!
SPEAKER_00 (04:20):
Yes, you're still right.
SPEAKER_01 (04:22):
This is private information.
Yes.
Um this is private for theparent, this is private for the
student.
Um, as your student grows older,or these students, they may have
very strong feelings about whatinformation is shared and not
shared.
And I think we need to respectthat, and we need to respect the
(04:44):
privacy of the family.
Um you know, maybe this is astrong comparison, but it would
be like me walking into yourhome and like tell me what
psychiatric disorders you mighthave.
I need to know before I workwith you.
Do you have this issue and thisissue or diabetes or home?
(05:04):
Like, that's private, that'spersonal.
You have no business asking methat.
SPEAKER_00 (05:08):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (05:09):
And I it I that is a strong comparison, but that's
what it feels like.
Now a lot of teachers feel likemaybe they need to know so they
can better teach.
Um and I've even seen commentsor you know, in Facebook groups
(05:31):
where teachers will say if theyrefuse to disclose a diagnosis
with me, then I refuse to takethem into my studio.
SPEAKER_00 (05:39):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (05:40):
Number one, um, I think that's the one I feel very
strongly about, is when teacherssay that you don't know that
there is a diagnosis to evenshare.
Um, and number two, by trying tobe inclusive and teach students
who may have a diagnosis, you'reactually not being very
(06:01):
welcoming by giving them an orelse.
SPEAKER_00 (06:04):
Yeah.
And I mean, it's it's actuallyit can be a bit
counterintuitive.
And we're gonna do like thewhole end of our episode is
gonna be on all about that.
Like, what do we do?
What do we do when they don'tshare?
But you just brought upsomething so so accurate, that
(06:25):
whole aspect of being welcoming.
So this is something I get askeda lot, what do I ask, or what do
I do on that intake process forstudents, you know, for new
students or transfers that I'mgetting.
And this is something I havebeen thinking about for years
(06:46):
because I've worked in a lot ofdifferent music schools, like
youth conservatories that arevery, very serious and very
strict and very formal.
You know, I've worked incommunity music schools that are
a bit more relaxed.
I've worked in, you know, at myown studio for a very long time.
So yeah, what what thoughts doyou have on this, and then maybe
(07:08):
I'll share a couple?
SPEAKER_01 (07:11):
Um, I I enjoy the first meeting process, and I
actually block an hour of time.
SPEAKER_00 (07:22):
Oh, that's very generous.
I want to hear more about that.
SPEAKER_01 (07:26):
So I enjoy talking with the families and getting to
know them as a person.
I don't want to rush theexperience at all.
Um, I want the students, ifthey're pre-college students, I
want them to know that I'minterested in them.
SPEAKER_00 (07:42):
That's so important.
SPEAKER_01 (07:43):
Yeah, I don't want to talk over them.
I don't want to talk with theparents and ignore them.
Um, especially if they might beneurodivergent, they've already
gone to enough therapy anddoctor and teacher meetings
where they're being talked aboutand not to.
Yes.
And what really influenced thisum perspective is my daughter's
(08:06):
orthodontist.
We went to interview differentorthodontists, and the first one
that we went to, he talked withSavannah about the plan for her
treatment.
Not me.
SPEAKER_00 (08:19):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (08:20):
Her in the eyes.
And that was all she needed.
We actually didn't even goanywhere else to get a quote.
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (08:29):
Because that environment of welcoming her,
seeing her, made all of thedifference.
And I, it made a difference forme as a mom.
He saw her.
He wasn't just talking with meabout the details.
So I then applied that to mystudio.
I make sure that I engage withthe student.
(08:50):
And I do have a terrible memory.
So as we talk, I'll I'll pick upmy pad of paper or iPad or
whatever I'm using at the time,and I'll just look at the
student and I'll say, Do youmind if I take notes while we
chat?
I I just have a really badmemory sometimes.
And do you mind 100% of thetime?
Oh no, that's okay.
That you know, I don't mind atall.
(09:10):
And so we just talk about whatkind of music they love, what
kind of music they want to play,um, you know, what other things
do they do with their time, whathobbies.
And usually there is alwayssomething I can connect with.
Like, oh, I used to do karateclasses too, or oh, did you know
my daughter rides horses?
(09:32):
Oh, my son loves video games,and I try to find that point of
connection that we just ashumans tend to intuitively do,
not always intuitive toneurodivergent students, right?
But I try to find thatconnection point.
I talk with the parents also,like what kind of music
background do you have?
And then we in in the course ofthat conversation, we tend to
(09:54):
cover everything in the studiopolicy.
Oh, tell me about the piano thatyou have at home.
Oh, you need help finding one?
I'm happy to help you with that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
Um, and that's that's just really uh it speaks
to the need to see the human infront of you, see the student in
front of you.
And I totally agree that we dohave to be discerning in the
process of meeting and taking onnew families because it's very
(10:23):
easy as a private musician,private piano teacher to think,
I wonder if they're gonna hireme.
But really, you have to ensurethat it's a good fit for you,
too.
And in my communications withnew families, the emails and the
phone calls, I never do a meetupwith a family without emailing
(10:45):
and phone calling the parentsfirst.
That's where I assess theparents.
I want a couple differentinteractions with them by email,
by phone call.
I send them just a preliminarysurvey just to see if I think
I'm gonna be a good fit or ifthey're gonna be a good fit for
me because I don't want to wastetheir time.
Um, and I you really can tellright off a lot of red flags or
(11:09):
green flags, lots of one or theother.
But um I also do a meet andgreet.
I call it a meetup or or a chat,and that's where I talk to the
students.
I've already met with theparents online, uh Zoom or phone
call, so I know I'm okay fromwhat I know so far to work with
them, but I do agree we have tohave that kind of personal
(11:33):
connection, and also it's alittle bit ironic that so much
of what we're talking abouttoday, this what to do about
getting the diagnosisinformation.
Well, what have you done to getto know your student?
SPEAKER_01 (11:50):
100%, 100%, and there's so much in that
conversation, in that hour timeframe that I can I can read so
so to speak, about the student.
I'm I'm observing everything.
How well do they respond to me?
And you know, if if they're notverbalizing anything at all,
(12:12):
okay, maybe there might beselective mutism, maybe not.
They're just shy.
This is new, they're in a newplace.
SPEAKER_00 (12:18):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (12:18):
You know, but I can kind of tick things off in my
head.
The other thing I do in theinterview is um I try to not
make it um feel like a test oran exam.
Like you can do clapbacks andplaybacks and things like that,
but my number one thing that Ido, and I would love to know
what you do, Elizabeth, is I doimprovisation with them.
(12:39):
Oh I let them pick out maybe twonotes or three notes, poke the
keys, your suggestion there.
And just by playing in differentstyles, getting louder, getting
softer, I can assess in thatmoment so many things about the
student.
SPEAKER_00 (12:56):
Oh, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (12:58):
Um, I can, you know, make a mental note about what is
going to be a strength and aweakness, how it's just a very
powerful tool to useimprovisation.
But the best part aboutimprovising with them in the
interview is how their faceslight up.
That they created music withanother person and it sounded
(13:20):
amazing.
And that is like that fills mewith so much joy.
Those are my most favoritemoments is um just you you
didn't need anything on themusic stand, we didn't need
complicated instructions, justplay.
SPEAKER_00 (13:35):
Well, and then your students leave realizing instead
of focusing on an assessmentthat lists out okay, they're
unable to read music so far,they don't know what a quarter
note is, and all the things theydon't know yet, they leave
actually having experiencedmusic.
And I actually do somethingvery, very similar, uh, in which
(13:55):
we like compose a little piecetogether, and I'll often have
them.
I have these really cool things.
Um, we should probably givethese away as a freewhe at some
point, but yeah, I made theselittle pinwheels where um it's
like a little spinner that hasdifferent options for tempo,
mood, animals, dynamics, andwe'll just spin them and choose
(14:19):
like we might get rainy day, um,tiger, and largo with like
staccato articulations, but wewill literally make up a song
together trying to use thatimagery.
And if anybody's listening andthinking, wait a minute, I
thought you said that youshouldn't use, you know, be
(14:40):
careful or discerning when usingexcessive imagery.
Well, I want to see how theythink.
I really do.
I want to see how howcomfortable they are like taking
instructions from somebody.
How how comfortable are theyfollowing directions by trying
to do something that's a littleuncomfortable?
And I don't do that to stressthem out.
(15:01):
They usually think it'sabsolutely hilarious because I
always tell them, like, well,I've never had this combination
before either.
And I have never made up a songon the piano thinking about a
tiger walking through arainstorm on a Tuesday with the
tempo of Larga, which is veryslow.
But let's see what it soundslike.
Oh, it's Takato.
Uh, so let's see what it soundslike, and they always think it's
(15:24):
so funny.
SPEAKER_01 (15:26):
And I love that.
Tiger.
SPEAKER_00 (15:29):
Yes, exactly.
And sometimes they give it aname, like you know, they'll
give the tiger a name, and weekslater, if this student signs up
to take piano with me and wedecide to work together, weeks
later I'll be like, Hey, do youremember what we did in your
first lesson?
They're like, Yes, and theyrecount every detail, and they
have been playing it at home forweeks.
(15:50):
Um, but it's such a fun way toassess students.
Um, I think we should probablyI'm writing it down right now.
We should probably do a wholeepisode on that.
But you know, just and also it'svery powerful for the parents to
observe this just as anonlooker, you know.
(16:11):
Parents of neurodivergentstudents, and you can correct me
on this, or I'd love to hearyour input, but I feel like they
always have to be in thedriver's seat.
They're always advocating,they're always, no, this is how
they learn, no, it's thismedication, no, it's this
teacher.
We can't do that other class.
You know, they're always havingto stand up for their kid and
(16:32):
try to advocate that they arecapable, that they can
participate, and for them to beable to just observe this
process of their child takingall of this information I've
given them, but seeing how I canpresent it in a way that's not
overwhelming, and in a way thattheir child is going to be
(16:53):
successful.
That's that's pretty much a gamechanger.
SPEAKER_01 (16:58):
It is, and as a parent, like I I think of myself
sitting in those situations.
I'm I am primed and ready as amama bear because you get hurt
so often by rejections um orpeople who just don't understand
your student, and um so it feelslike I'm always on edge.
(17:22):
So to be able to observe apositive interaction is
life-giving beyond words, um,and then I lost my train of
thought.
I'm so scared.
SPEAKER_00 (17:34):
No, you're doing great, and I would imagine too
that in these, you know, phonecalls that I have with parents,
and I I'm guessing you'veprobably had some similar
situations, I can sometimes hearthe defensive tone in a parent's
voice.
Because again, like I shared,sometimes they will say in an
email, my six-year-old childwith autism, ADHD, dyslexia,
(17:59):
Tourette's, and dyspraxia, whenI have that phone call, I can
literally hear them in like toptiger mode.
And then as we start to talk,like their voice comes down, and
I can just I I've had firstphone calls with parents that
they have I can hear them likesobbing on the other end of the
(18:21):
line.
Like, just the fact that you'retaking my call, just the fact
that I saw on your website thatyou enjoy teaching kids who
don't learn in a traditional waymakes me feel like this might
not be a disaster.
SPEAKER_01 (18:36):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I sometimes what's helpful inthese conversations and what and
what brings down that level ofstress is like when I was doing
homeschool stuff, the parentswould always help come and ask
for help, like about thiscurriculum.
Well, they can't do this, theycan't do this, they do this,
(18:56):
they can't do this, can't dothis.
And I go, stop.
And I need you to take a deepbreath, and I want you to tell
me what you love about yourstudent.
What do they enjoy to do?
What are they really good at?
You know, and let letting aparent just brag about their kid
for a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (19:17):
That's beautiful.
That's beautiful.
SPEAKER_01 (19:20):
This is also helpful information as a piano teacher,
right?
If I'm saying to the student,like in the in-person interview,
hey, what do you enjoy doing?
You know, oh, I love to drawmental note, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (19:33):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (19:33):
Oh my gosh, I trains.
I could I could talk abouttrains all day, or maybe the
parent will say um, you know,something and and you can find
out a special interest, or maybethey love reading, or oh gosh, I
I'm on my dance competitionteam.
Well, then I'm alreadycataloging what analogies I can
use in the future, and they'regetting to share what they love
(19:53):
about their kid.
They're constantly talking aboutwhat their their kid can't do,
right?
Right, what IEP meetings andeverything else to be able to
talk about what they thrive inum is fantastic.
Like even yesterday I wastalking with my um my
hairstylist, and we were talkingabout our kids, and and um she
(20:16):
she has students who are herkids are neurodivergent, but one
um struggles academically, and Isaid I said to her, I bet he
works really well with hishands, doesn't he?
She's my gosh, he is incredible.
She was so excited to talkabout.
And then we subsequently startedtalking about the Temple Granted
(20:37):
book thinking uh that addressesall of that.
SPEAKER_00 (20:40):
So oh that's so neat, and I believe that is such
a a hidden gem and a reason formy student success, your student
success, anybody who enjoysteaching students who learn
differently, when your studentsand parents know that you don't
(21:01):
see them as a list of problemsto solve, it changes the entire
lesson experience for you andthem.
And so, I mean, I I want tolearn as much about my students
as possible in those initialconversations.
This is why I send out a littlesurvey to ask them about their
(21:24):
child.
What are they good at?
What's their favorite thing inschool?
What is their least favorite?
And I don't ask what they getthe best grades in.
What do they actually like?
What's their favorite hobby?
What's their favorite videogame?
What you know, I love that.
I love asking these thingsbecause it just not only shows
them that I'm interested, but ithelps us immediately start
(21:45):
having something in common thatthey have a really cool kid, you
know?
And I just think that helps tolower the defenses, but it also
opens up for these kinds ofconversations to be more
organic, like, hey, does yourchild, is there anything about
your child that I should knowthat will help me teach them
(22:07):
better?
unknown (22:08):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
I think I think wording matters.
What do you think?
SPEAKER_01 (22:12):
Yes, absolutely.
And I after you and I met andyou were talking about how you
asked that question, and it umI've been using it ever since,
and you helped me adjust it toum let parents know that um you
can share with me, it's gonna beconfidential and things like
that.
(22:33):
But that is a welcoming way toopen the conversation about
positives, about struggles,about anything else.
Most of the time, parents skipthe question.
I ask it every year in my surveythat goes out in every fall.
And you know, sometimes there'llbe a little something on there,
(22:55):
but most of the time, notanything.
But um I think it's important toknow for parents to know that
they can come talk to meanytime.
And that happened.
I've had parents, you know,they'll send their kid out and
they'll go sit in the car, andoh, they'll chat with me for
just a moment that they theyprivately share with me without
the student there, which I thinkis the best environment.
SPEAKER_00 (23:16):
Absolutely.
And I think this really kind ofleads us into why do you think
most teachers, especially theones that we have interacted
with, I I get this question atevery single presentation that I
give, virtual or in person atconferences for music teachers
(23:38):
meetings?
I don't believe I've ever givena presentation on neurodiversity
where I've not received thisquestion.
And you you do an entirepresentation on this question.
But why do you think so manyteachers are hung up on the, you
know, parents are refusing toshare a diagnosis with me?
You know, why do you thinkthere's such a hang-up about
(24:00):
that?
SPEAKER_01 (24:02):
There could be a variety of reasons.
It could be just as and I don'tmean this in a negative way, but
just a lack of confidence andknowing enough about that area
and that diagnosis or all ofthis, because so much is um uh
comorbidities you have happeningat the same time.
(24:24):
It's not it's not black andwhite, and so and I I think as
people we also want to putthings in a box, like, oh, these
are the students has ADHD.
Well, I wish I would have knownthat.
Well, it's it's likely you couldprobably see it, right, without
demanding the diagnosis, butthen putting them into these
(24:45):
different boxes when really itall overlaps, you know.
So I would venture to say justmaybe a lack of confidence.
Sometimes, and this might soundharsh, I I've gotten the
impression that teachers feellike they have a right to the
information.
SPEAKER_00 (24:59):
Yes, I have experienced that many times, and
I had a conversation with umsomebody, oh my, like eight, ten
years ago at a music conference,and you know, this area of
study, neurodiversity and piano,has really advanced.
And eight, ten years ago, it wasstill advancing, but in a more
(25:20):
like earlier stage, and that wasexactly the conversation I had.
Like, they are refusing to sharethis with me, and I know that my
teaching is very good, and I Icouldn't tell you the name of
this teacher, I have no idea, soI'm not divulging anything, but
it was like a very um I couldtell they were very frustrated,
and I honestly felt so badly forthem because I've been there,
(25:44):
I've had students that are notsomething's not working, and I
don't know what it is yet.
But this kind of entitled, like,I deserve a right to know.
If I'm an educator, then theyowe me the right.
I am so sorry, but you don't.
You you you actually alluded tothis earlier, and it's actually
(26:04):
something I was wanting to talkabout.
It's a matter of privacy.
SPEAKER_01 (26:09):
It is, it's privacy, it's it there's HIPAA rules, and
I don't know anything.
I'm not very knowledgeable aboutthat, but we have to respect the
privacy of the family and theparents and the students, right?
I have I I do talk about myyoung adult children, but I also
have permission from them totalk about certain things, but
(26:33):
there's certain things thatthey're like, nope, mom, that's
I really don't want to talkabout it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
That's off limits.
I don't feel comfortable.
SPEAKER_01 (26:39):
And I strongly respect her rights.
And I think in this age ofsocial media and videos and
phones, um especially when itfirst when I first got on
Facebook, I think it was, Idon't know, 2011 or something,
and um I was excited to sharephotos of my kids and tell funny
(27:00):
stories about them, you know,because as a it's kind of a
community, yeah.
And oh, these are all my friendsthat I get to be in touch with.
But now, like, would my kids nowbe okay with me sharing that
embarrassing story from whenthey were five?
SPEAKER_00 (27:16):
Perhaps not.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
Yes, so it and I know it's been a big topic of
conversation.
All that to say, it's it'sprivate information, you don't
have a right to it.
SPEAKER_00 (27:26):
Well, and in some cases, perhaps these parents
have not told their child.
Yes, I I have had so manystudents that I know just from
experience and and learning andresearch, that there are some
learning struggles going on,maybe some developmental
struggles going on, maybe someautism, I don't know.
(27:47):
There's some stuff happening.
And if I need to ask a parentabout a behavior that I'm
concerned about, which is awhole other topic, but that
they'll often say, like, ohwell, we actually haven't told
them, but I've had that happenmultiple times, so that's also a
reason perhaps why they haven'ttold you because they haven't
(28:09):
told their child.
SPEAKER_01 (28:11):
That's very, very true.
Um, we we did have aconversation about you know,
when was the right time to tellGabe about his diagnosis?
We feel strongly about um notusing it as a crutch, um, and to
instead you can do everythingthat you want to do, but you are
(28:33):
not going to use this as anexcuse.
Um, you know, you're gonna learnskills and things, and that's
that's a whole notherconversation.
Another possibility is theparents don't know themselves.
Oh they don't want to know.
Um, there was a certain periodof time where it had been
mentioned that we needed topursue a possible diagnosis, and
(28:56):
we were like, no.
Um it's it hurts as a parent.
It hurts that there might be apossibility.
This is not the right wording,but it's what it feels like,
that there might be somethingwrong with your kid.
SPEAKER_00 (29:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (29:09):
Because you dream of what your family's gonna look
like and what your kids aregonna be like, and then to to be
hit with the possibility thatyour child is going to struggle
in life, it is a lot to process,it is very emotional, right?
So um they may not even be awarethat there might be an issue,
you know.
We might be able to seesomething because we have
(29:31):
experience with this, right?
And they just might not beaware, you know, maybe it's a
trait that's been in theirfamily for ages, which a lot of
it's genetic, right?
SPEAKER_00 (29:39):
Yes, and that is so, so true.
And I think honestly, a lot ofthis points back to what is the
reason that we teachers feellike we need a diagnosis?
I think that's a really greatquestion to ask ourselves.
And I don't know that there's aright or wrong answer, but For
(30:00):
me, one of the reasons why itcan be helpful is to help me see
something that I'm not I don'tI'm not understanding.
And I think that is the mainreason just for me to see maybe
these things are connected in away that I'm not aware of yet.
SPEAKER_01 (30:18):
Yeah, and that's this is where it's helpful to
talk to other teachers as well.
This is the behavior that I'mobserving.
What do you think is happening?
So it is it is helpful whenparents do share.
I thank them for sharing with meand I reassure them I will keep
it confidential.
Um and it it kind of gives me abasis or specific things to
(30:40):
plan.
But if they don't, I am stillgoing to, and this you taught me
this was I'm still going toteach that student as if they
might have that diagnosis.
Right.
No, I'm going to try, I'm goingto try this approach and see
what happens.
And I'm going to learn from thatstudent what works best and what
(31:03):
doesn't.
And it's it's very unique witheach and every student.
SPEAKER_00 (31:08):
Well, and this is a huge reason why it can be
frustrating for teachers who askquestions about this topic
because we don't have a methodseries for autism.
We don't have a method seriesfor ADHD.
And there's a really good reasonfor that.
And this actually, TempleGrandin, if you're listening, we
(31:31):
love you.
Um two members of your fan clubhere.
But in this book club, we'redoing the Piano Teachers Book
Club, Visual Thinking is ourbook.
And she does an enormous chapterabout complimentary minds.
First of all, what a greatchapter title, chapter four,
complimentary minds.
(31:51):
But a huge portion of thatchapter is what good are the
labels?
And she as an autistic womanshares how conflicting it is for
her to be identified as autisticwhen the way she experiences
autism is so vastly differentfrom how others might because
(32:15):
that spectrum is so wide.
So for us as teachers, whenparents share with us, my child
has a diagnosis of autism, thatkind of helps me some things to
look out for, like you justsaid, but in no way does it tell
me how to teach their child.
SPEAKER_01 (32:36):
Mm-mm.
Not at all.
There could be so manyopposites.
They might be creative, verycreative, and use great imagery.
And yeah, they might not at all.
SPEAKER_00 (32:47):
They might not at all.
SPEAKER_01 (32:49):
They might be sensory seeking or they might be
sensory avoidant.
You know, it's it is so broad.
Yes.
And it in actuality, it's somuch easier to me.
Maybe this is a controversialtake, but sometimes I just it's
okay if I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (33:06):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (33:06):
You know, maybe it's helpful if I don't know.
Yes.
You know, because I can takeeach student for who they are
and learn about them, discoverwho they are as a person, you
know.
Another thought is that if werefuse to accept students into
our studios unless a diagnosisis shared, which I've seen that
comment multiple times onFacebook, it upsets me.
(33:30):
Because in the course of saying,Oh yes, I'm an inclusive teacher
and I can teach different umneurotypes, um, but you can't
come into my studio unless youreveal a diagnosis, you've
actually instead of becominginclusive, you've been not
welcoming.
SPEAKER_00 (33:47):
Oh, it's very exclusive.
SPEAKER_01 (33:49):
Yeah, and I think it by doing that, you're really
closing the door.
I would walk away.
I honestly, as a parent, if Isaw that kind of policy, I'd be
like, no, because that meansyou're not going to see my kid,
you're going to see theirlabels.
SPEAKER_00 (34:06):
Oh, yes.
And this is not a I'm not asales y person, but everything
we're talking about right now iswhy I decided to start this blog
and this podcast.
Because I there's just so muchmisinformation and myths and
misconceptions aboutneurodiversity, which is what
(34:29):
this whole podcast season'sabout.
And I feel like teachers are sofrustrated when they when they
hear, like, oh, my student hasautism, what method should I
use?
I'm like, any.
Just try one.
And my student has dyslexia.
Which method should I use?
Any.
Just try it.
Because there's if anybodyguarantees you that they have
(34:52):
all the answers for teaching astudent with whatever label, you
need to be very skeptical.
That and that sounds harsh.
SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
But no, it's not harsh at all.
I think we do need to be directwith these things.
I think sometimes when we'vebeen teaching for so long a
certain way, it's hard to changehow we teach.
Um, and we need to be open tolearning, always, always
learning and changing.
I don't care if I'm teachingalmost 30 years, I'm still
(35:23):
trying to do better.
And I'm not saying that to bragabout myself, but there are
areas where I can definitelyimprove and do better, you know.
Every time I talk to a newteacher and they share an idea,
and I go, oh, that is brilliant!I can try that, you know.
Uh so I love learning from otherteachers and learning as I go
(35:44):
and getting better at what I do.
Um, it's it's a fun process, butmore important is seeing the
student for who they are,welcoming them into your space,
helping them feel valued, um,and that you see them, not the
label.
SPEAKER_00 (36:03):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (36:04):
Um, I think it I think it's so vastly, vastly
important.
SPEAKER_00 (36:09):
It is, and it really comes down to the basis of our
pedagogy.
When we are teaching a student,you are not actually teaching
Scott Joplin, you're notactually teaching WC or even
Randall Faber.
You are teaching Johnny orSusie, who's sitting at your
piano, and they happen to beplaying music by that composer.
(36:32):
And that is the essence of whatwe're talking about today, that
it's a huge big fatmisconception that you are
ill-equipped to teach aneurodivergent student unless
you know their label.
Yes.
It's a huge big fatmisconception.
SPEAKER_01 (36:49):
It is, it is.
And I, you know, challengeyourself to just to start
learning about the differentdiagnoses and what it takes.
Just learn about it.
This is why, you know, this thispodcast and blog and everything
exists, like you said.
Um, I would even total sidenote, but I would even challenge
(37:11):
focusing on different composerslike Joplin or Bach or whoever.
Um, and I know there's a wholeschool of thought about this,
and I see teachers say all thetime, oh no, no, no, I'm not
teaching any pop music.
Are you kidding?
No, no Taylor Swift in mystudio.
But let me tell you, whenstudents are able to play music
(37:32):
that they love and they arefamiliar with, it is highly
motivating.
And this is a lesson that I havelearned this year.
I have um I have a couplestudents who love Taylor Swift
and they're playing every singlesong in the book, and what I
have noticed in the process istheir rhythm has improved
(37:53):
exponentially, their sightreading, it is remarkable, and
this is a whole nother podcast.
It is.
SPEAKER_00 (38:00):
We'll have to do an episode about this because I
think that is a wonderful thingto tap into that actually goes
back to what we were talkingabout about the intake process,
getting to know your student.
So we've had a lot of thoughtstoday.
We we've shared a lot of Taralikes to call them spicy takes,
and I love that term about ourthoughts on knowing the
(38:25):
diagnosis, what to do, how totalk to parents, and really the
crux of the matter is know yourstudent and know your pedagogy.
Be confident in your teachingand then learn your student.
I think that's what it comesdown to.
SPEAKER_01 (38:39):
See the student, just see the student for who
they are, like the orthodontistsdid with my shout out to Dr.
McNutt and Clayton, NorthCarolina.
But um watching him engage withSavannah and seeing her um
changed what I do a hundredpercent.
Um, I think we need to see thestudent and what they love and
what they know, what they'refamiliar with, because that's
(39:02):
gonna tie into what they're notfamiliar with yet.
SPEAKER_00 (39:05):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (39:05):
And that's what we do.
SPEAKER_00 (39:07):
Yes, that's what we do.
Um, so we want to challenge youif you have students that you're
teaching, something maybe isn'tgoing well in your lessons, or
something just doesn't feelquite right, and you're itching
to ask the parent about adiagnosis.
Before you do that, and beforeyou go down that rabbit trail,
(39:30):
really learn your student.
Learn how they learn, teach howthey learn rather than how you
feel comfortable teaching.
And instead of relying on theirlabel, see what you can do to
meet them where they are and notwhere you want them to be.
So that's what we that's what wewant to challenge you with
(39:52):
today.
Before we jump into our tinyteaching tip to wrap this up
today, I want to thank anybodywho has taken time to leave a
review of the podcast this week.
That is so very kind of you.
It takes just a few seconds.
Um, I'm told by the folks atBuzzSprout who host our podcast
(40:13):
that doing a review on Apple isa bit more um accurate and a bit
more helpful.
So if you can just tap thatbutton and leave a review and
even just say something youenjoy, um, which episode was
your favorite?
A very quick this can be like a10-second process, 20-second
process.
But that means so much becausethen Apple and Buzz Sprout and
(40:36):
Spotify will recommend thepodcast to other people who
might enjoy it.
So, thank you for taking time todo that.
And now our tiny teaching tipcomes from Tara.
So, Tara, will you give us ourtiny teaching tip, something
that you've been doing this weekthat both you and your students
have been loving in lessons?
SPEAKER_01 (40:57):
Oh man, we've been going through um a list of music
to play that sounds likeHalloween, sounds scary one each
week.
Um, Chrissy Ricker had it on herblog, and we've enjoyed
listening every week to a newpiece.
This week was Moonlight Sonata.
I don't care how popular it is,it is my absolute favorite
piece.
SPEAKER_00 (41:17):
I love it too in the world.
SPEAKER_01 (41:19):
Um, and so I told them, you know, as they come in,
we talk about Beethoven a littlebit, and then I say, Well, I'm
gonna play for you.
Now, this was scary for mebecause I was like, oh my gosh,
I'm taking less in time, but no,this is a great listening
activity.
I printed a coloring sheet and Ihad coloring pencils available,
(41:42):
but each and every time I haveplayed it, I have loved it.
It has renewed my joy so much inmusic, but they also get to
experience a live performance.
And even my students who mightbe a little fidgety, I mean dead
silent in my studio.
They haven't even some havecolored, some haven't.
(42:04):
And even one sweet mom was like,Oh my goodness, I have never
heard that played live before.
And so I yeah, so I think myteaching tip is play for your
students.
SPEAKER_00 (42:15):
You know, that shows a good one.
SPEAKER_01 (42:18):
What you love, let them experience a live
performance, let them experienceseeing you make a mistake, you
know.
Let them um just their livemusic is very, very special and
to feel that music wrap aroundyou.
And I think I had one student, II think he was gonna cry at the
end.
Oh my goodness.
(42:39):
I said, Well, what did youimagine as you listened?
And he goes, It was very sad.
It was a little sad, and I thinkit just kind of like even now as
I think about that conversation,I just want to cry because you
know, my mama heart was like,Oh, I just I just need to hug
(43:00):
you, it's okay.
It wasn't that sad, it's allright, don't worry.
SPEAKER_00 (43:04):
Oh, that's such a good tip though.
Make sure you play for yourstudents.
Oh, that's an excellent tinyteaching tip.
That's actually a big teachingtip.
So thank you for sharing thatwith us.
SPEAKER_01 (43:15):
And and I think they sometimes students need to see
that you're good at what you do,and this is something that they
can strive for.
SPEAKER_00 (43:24):
Um and make it.
Yes.
Oh, thank you so much forsharing that, Tara.
And thank you for being myco-host today.
This was very fun.
SPEAKER_01 (43:34):
I love it.
It is so much fun.
I'm sorry for all the rabbittrails.
SPEAKER_00 (43:38):
It is quite alright.
We love the rabbit trails, andwe want to thank you for taking
time to spend time with uslearning about piano teaching
and neurodiversity andrethinking how we can get to
know our very special students.
So, thank you for taking time tolisten, and we will look forward
to being back with you nextweek.
SPEAKER_01 (44:00):
Yep, it sounds fun.
SPEAKER_00 (44:01):
Bye, Tara.
SPEAKER_01 (44:02):
Bye.
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