#75 Chris Dolman: How Can I serve?

Episode Transcript
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Intro (00:02):
Welcome to Creative spirits unleashed where we talk
about the dilemmas of balancingwork and life. And now, here's
your host, Lynn Carnes.

Lynn (00:14):
Well, welcome to the creative spirits unleashed
Podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, yourhost. My guest for this episode
is Chris Dolman. Chris is theProducing Artistic Director for
the Legler Music Festival, aneclectic Music Festival

(00:34):
producing world class music inmultiple genres, with renowned
musicians and bands. Based inwestern North Carolina, the
festival supports Leglerclassical Academy and the
hickory nut gorge outreach andtheir respective missions. Chris
started his career working inradio before becoming a
professional actor and directorbased in New York City. But

(00:55):
Chris and his wife have recentlymoved to Lake lower and they now
live here full time. So thisconversation took so many fun
turns, let me start with when hesays in his bio, world class
musicians, I am not kidding you.
These are world class musiciansthat we talk a little bit about
some of my experience when Ifirst realized just who this
music festival was bringing toour little town here in western

(01:17):
North Carolina. The other thingwe talked a lot about was just
some of the interesting turnsthat have happened in his
career. For example, shiftinghis focus from a perspective of
what can I get from this to howcan I serve in some ways that is
what birthed the music festivalin the first place. It also led

(01:38):
him to new opportunities andchallenges many of which we
explore in this conversation,which kind of was wide ranging
among a lot of different topics.
We grow don't for example, wedove in on authenticity, on
listening, improvisation, just alot of very interesting topics.
And as always, you'll hear mefollowing some of those threads

(02:01):
and rabbit trails that I findinteresting, and I hope you do
too. So I do hope you enjoy thisconversation. And please share
it with your friends andcolleagues, write it on the
different podcast apps, and soforth, because we really
appreciate you listening. And wewould love to get the word out
there. Enjoy this conversationwith Chris Dolan. Chris Dolman
welcome to the podcast.

Chris (02:23):
It's a privilege to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Lynn (02:26):
I am so happy to have you here. And probably the first
thing people are going tonotice, as soon as you started
speaking is like they're goingto say that guy has to be in
some kind of radio, or somethingbecause of that voice. But, but
I'm not going to ask you aboutradio. First what I wanted. What
I'd like to start with is wewere talking before we hit

(02:51):
record, about sort ofphilosophical things around life
a little bit and intention, andso forth. And you said something
that triggered my thought abouthow I have started to approach
my life, which is, at somepoint, you know, I changed my
business name, when I said, Youknow what, I'm going to go to

(03:11):
creative spirits unleashed.
Because what I'm really doing isinstead of letting work, define
me, and let life happen, as itmay, I'm going to let my life
define me. And then that willinform my work, in other words,
life, then work not work, thenlife, right. And that's a

(03:32):
complete flip on the head of alot of societal expectations.
And a lot of the way people justare automatically going about
their business, because we doindeed need work, usually, to
pay for our food, housing, andso forth. But I'm curious how

(03:54):
you are working with thatbalance for yourself, given that
given that you've come to livehere and like lower after being
in New York City where a lot ofwork happens over the last few
years, you might have that checkdecision to come here. So say a
little bit about how you thinkabout that balance and how
you've evolved, if you will, andyour thinking.

Chris (04:19):
I'm sure. It's good question. I you know, I think
there's obviously a hugedifference between living in New
York City with the energy thathappens there and living in Lake
Lower Mainland, I think weactually ended up kind of
seeking that out my wife Kathyand I, we had no plan in place.
When we started looking aroundLake lore in the area, we

(04:41):
actually thought we were goingto, you know, live someplace
near Asheville for the cultureand what was going on, but
because we were still in NewYork, we realized we needed
something a little quieter, andkind of much further away from
the action than we thought wedid. I think if we would have
come here now we might haveended up near like near
Asheville and so have, likelower. But your your question

(05:02):
is, I think to me in some ways,looking at it is is. And first
off having the, you know, beingfortunate enough being having
some gratitude for being able toeven have a conversation about
well beyond like, how do you,you know, how do you balance
your work life, you know a lotof people, it's just they have
to work to live and certainlybeing fortunate enough to live

(05:24):
in the city and to have had somegood fortune that we were able
then to pivot and in and buy aplace in Lake Lure, I think
there's just you have torecognize that gratitude for
being fortunate enough to beable to have those conversations
beyond the sense of living everyday, and working paycheck to
paycheck. So I think looking atit, in some ways is like, you

(05:45):
know, when you come out, ifyou're fortunate to go to
college and come out of collegein your life, my life pivoted
from sports, to the arts, inkind of quick fashion. And so,
to me, I think in your 20s and30s, certainly, it's all about
and particularly in the arts,when you're trying to establish
yourself in some way, andprobably in all types of, of

(06:07):
career things, you are focusedon your career and your
ambition. And and how do youmake it work? And certainly, if
I was a starving artist,certainly when I went to New
York, in terms of how do youmake your How do you live in a
city is expensive and as dynamicas New York when you're a
starving artist, and that'swhere people go, they go to the
art centers to do that, whetherthey're, you know, whether

(06:28):
they're in fine arts, or whetherthey're in performing arts, or I
worked, like you said, I workedin radio, and then I pivoted
into the arts. It's, I think youas you get to a certain point in
your life now and looking atwhat I'm doing now with the
music festival was that I didn'thave to, I'm starting to realize
I don't have to put my focus onmy own personal ambition, which

(06:50):
I think can get into your egoand either trying to prove
things that it became more of asense of how do you serve others
in what you do, as opposed tohow do you serve yourself and
your own ambitions and your own,you know, ego and place in the
world. And of course, some ofthat is making money to live on.
But it's also some of it is, youknow, without even thinking

(07:11):
about it, you know, you kind oflook back and go like, Well, my
ego was definitely involved inhow I perceive myself not just
as a performing artist, or as Iwas mostly a theater director,
the last 20 or 25 years, orproducer is that you start to
realize, as you get a littleolder, and with some good
fortune that you don't have tofocus on your own self, in terms

(07:33):
of what you do, you can focus onperhaps serving the community.
And so the music festival cameout of that idea, because we
actually met people at a certaindinner that you were at about
six or seven years ago, where wemet 12 People in the Lake Lure
hickory nut Gorge area who weredoing things for the community.
And we were like, wow, look atall these people we met who are

(07:57):
so dynamic and who are lookingat what they're doing in serving
others, you know, and so thatinspired us to kind of look at,
well, what talents do we have?
And what can we bring to thecommunity? And I literally just
had a thought about well, whatwould happen if we started a
music festival in the area, whatwe kind of put that idea out to

(08:17):
others. And what we heard backwas please do that that would be
great. Of course, you don'tthink about the work that's
involved, you just kind of golike, okay, would that be
something that some people inthe community would embrace. And
our close friends who became ourclose friends out of that dinner
six or seven years ago, werepeople who were like, yeah, and

(08:38):
not only do they say that wouldbe great, but then they also
stood up and, and also wanted tohelp in some way. So now you had
a group of people who were allmoving in the same direction.
And I went back to New York,because we weren't living here
full time. And a good friend ofmine, who was one of the great
classical musicians in thecountry was happened to be a

(08:59):
good friend of mine. And we hada conversation. And then I
learned more about because I wasoh, he came always came from
producing theater, I producedfilm, as well. But I'd never
really produced music, althoughpeople in my life had worked in
Nashville, and we're artists inthe music business. But all of a
sudden, I had these peoplearound me who were, you know,
some of the finest musiciansworking at least in the

(09:21):
classical world. And so Istarted thinking, well, what
would it take? And I had alwaysdone that, in some ways. The way
I was started working in radio,I just thought I'd find out if I
could. So, you know, and I thinkwhat I learned there was you put
your energy towards things, andusually something happens, you
know, it's like if you focusyour energy, somewhere,

(09:41):
something gets created,something gets built. And that's
sort of how my life and radiostarted. It's how my life in the
arts started. And so there werealways things that were
challenging. It wasn't easy toget where you go, because
there's so many people in thearts trying to do the same
thing. But with the musicfestival, it just was like, I'll
put some energy this way, andsee what happens. And then

(10:04):
people in the communityresponded, and not only with
their time and energy, but alsowith the funding as well. And so
we started to see a way to makeit work between my connections
and in the artistic field,including Broadway and stuff.
And that's how we had theBroadway concert here, that I
started to put my focus on howdo I serve the community and

(10:25):
bring something artistic, thatwas really artistic. And then
we've also found that it alsohas had a, a serve the community
in another way, which issupporting the local or
classical Academy and supportingthe hickory nut gorge outreach,
that we were able to buildsomething so far that has been
able to slowly build into moregiving to those and donations to

(10:47):
those, those organizations thatare really doing the important
work, you know, our work kind ofserves their mission. And so I
think in some ways, the musicfestival has evolved into that,
that it's not, you know,initially you could have seen
it, well, it could become abusiness, it could become the
Lakeland music festival as abusiness. And I made the
decision a while back, that itwasn't going to be something

(11:11):
that served me as a business, itwas not going to be that kind of
thing, it was going to serve thecommunity as a, a catalyst to
serve these institutions. And sowe are under the umbrella of the
Lakeland Community EducationFoundation, which is over the
lake or classical Academy andserving it. And so I saw it as

(11:33):
rather than being a businessmodel, you know, we have to run
it, we have to run it as abusiness in terms of making sure
that we're doing everything weneed to do, but it's not going
to be something that is mybusiness, it's going to be
something we serve thecommunity. In the best way we
know how and So music is thecatalyst for people to give and
then and then support the schooland also support hickory nut

(11:56):
gorge outreach. So I think the Iguess the short answer is, is
finding a way to focus yourenergies on something other than
yourself in which is the thegreater community and and then
letting those institutions dowhat they do best. And we help
we help in our small way to tohelp them do what they do.

Lynn (12:22):
Yeah, well, there, there are very many threads I want to
follow from that. But there'sthree I want to just call out
and then I'm I'll ask about oneof them. But one is the flipping
the serving yourself. on itshead to serve others is is an
interesting theme. The idea ofboth bringing like, like valuing

(12:46):
the arts for the sake of thechildren, because I think a lot
of education, especially as itsevolved to sort of prove that
it's doing its job, educationhas gone to testing, testing
tends to only really be able tomeasure from the right brain, I
mean, left brain, sort of theconcrete visible, same thing, if
you will, the arts, I think, areincredibly important for brain

(13:10):
development, music, and soforth. There's so much to that.
And yet, it's more happening inthe unseen world, meaning it's
kind of happening in theconnections in the brain, where
it's much harder for it to betested, but yet it's effective.
So I feel like keeping children,you know, tuned in with things
like music and theatre and soforth is important. But one

(13:32):
thing I'd like to really followup on and then we'll touch those
other two as well. You mentionedwhen I turn my focus to
something, my focus and energy,something starts to happen. And
you You alluded to that hadhappened with you in the past
with radio, it had happened inother areas, and it happened
here. What do you think that isbecause I've noticed the same

(13:53):
thing. And it's amazing howquickly something that goes from
that looks impossible, or Ican't or that's too big. To
Well, I could actually make thathappen, just by beginning to
just put some energy towardssomething. Tell me a little bit
about how that's happened foryou in the past and what you
think is going on there?

Chris (14:13):
Well, it's interesting, because, you know, a lot of
times we live in fear of what,you know, what will not happen
or the consequences andsometimes you have to have a
healthy dose of reality to golike, Okay, here's what can go
wrong. If I do this, and wecertainly every year with a
music festival, you know, we'rekind of looking at, it's an
outside concert, and I swear itkeeps me up at night, wondering

(14:36):
about the weather. For one oneday, and we've been fortunate in
the last couple of years withour bluegrass concerts to have
really good weather, but, youknow, it is something you know,
and you kind of go like, can Ilive this way that I worry about
spending so much time worryingabout the weather? This is the I
guess this idea of you know, youknow, they talked about what you

(14:58):
can manifest and there's certainWe always things you have to you
know, that are, you know, youhave things that get in the way,
you know, there are obstacles towhat you want to do. And, and it
doesn't mean that just if youput energy towards something
it's going to work out. But, youknow, if you don't try, if you
don't attempt something you'llnever know, you know, and, and,

(15:19):
you know, I certainly the musicfestival has evolved, because
we, you know, we went throughthe pandemic, where we couldn't
do it for a couple years, and,you know, you're trying to
figure out your momentum and howthe community responds to it,
there's lots of different thingsthat are involved, you know, if
the community, you know, has towant it to and has to see its
value, you know, sometimes youcan start it, and you see its

(15:41):
value, and then others have tosee it as well. And I think
we've seen that happen. Butyeah, I do think that anything
you put your energy towards, youcan change, change, even if it's
in the smallest of things,doesn't have to be a music
festival that has some scope toit, it can be in anything you
do, that when you put yourenergy towards something, you

(16:01):
can change it, and certainlywhen it's outside of yourself,
you know, it's healthy, I guess,in some ways to not be always
focused on on on yourself andthings. And when, you know, it's
kind of like, you know, JimmyCarter building houses, you
know, it's like, the focus ofthat energy is brought so many
other people to get involvedwith that organization. And so,

(16:24):
from small things, bigger thingscan happen, certainly the ripple
of a couple people in idea, yousee that all the time,
everywhere. But I do think it's,to me, at least has been, as
I've, you know, evolved intoliving here and coming and
coming to Lake Lords that Idon't really need to focus on so

(16:44):
much what I do, and who I am interms of that being intertwined
together, you're not what you dois not who you are, it's just a
part, it's just a part of whoyou are. And so if you, you
know, it's funny, because I, youknow, in the career I've had,
I've, you know, whether it'sbeen radio, or the theater, or
getting up on stage, or doingthose kinds of things, but one

(17:07):
of the things I'm not reallyenjoying, as much as you know,
is, is getting up and talking atthese concerts, because, you
know, I realized it, you know, Idon't really, I have to do that
to get certain information outthere and introduce the bands
and, and talk about what we'redoing with the school and stuff
like that. But, you know, youcan find great pleasure and
little things. And when it's,you know, whether it's getting

(17:28):
another a couple people moreinvolved in in it, or a business
coming in and becoming asponsor, those things are the
little things that help make itsuccessful that you, you don't
need to get up on stage and talkabout, but it's important that
people know that the rest of thecommunity is involved. So I
think, you know, maybe in our20s, and 30s, we sort of focused

(17:50):
on our personal ambitions andthings like that. And now as a
more mature person, you canfocus on that whatever you put
your energies towards, can havean effect in some ways on
others, whether it's going overto help somebody who, who needs,
you know, you need to go over totheir house and help them
because they've had a fall orsomething like that you put your
energies elsewhere, youprobably, it seems like you're

(18:13):
going to be a little morecontent. Because what you what
you do helps others, you know,and I think that sort of has
been, you know, certainly thedriving force of the music
festival is that, yes, we'rebringing great music, which I
think is an entertainment andpeople see the value of that
whatever it is, whether it'sclassical music, or Broadway or,

(18:34):
or something like bluegrass,which is very popular, is that
the end of it, we get to then dosomething that helps these other
organizations. And so thatenergy is not happening as a you
know, because it needs to be,you know, it has to be our
business or something that no,it happens because we know what
we're doing is impacting others.
And the fact that you know, theschool added a music teacher in

(18:56):
2023 24. You know, because wehelp fund it. That is very
satisfying, that that means thatokay, that was the an outcome
that while we didn't ask for it,we didn't say this is where the
money has to be spent orwhatever. But the fact that it
was so related to that we'recreating music, which is, you
know, is his enrichment to thecommunity. Now, it's also on the

(19:22):
ground helping the children atthe school because now they have
a music teacher they didn't havelast year. And so that is and
they're going to have it in 24and 25, because the school can
now fund it. And we can put ourenergies towards other things
related to those organizations.
So

Lynn (19:41):
I this is calling to mind the very first night we had the
music festival. And it was inthe school gym, which was new.
And I remember really notunderstanding what this music
festival was going to be allabout. We're certainly not
expecting or being aware of thequality of The musicians because

(20:01):
this, you know, let's paint apicture for the people who don't
live in like lower, like loweris a town of 1000 people,
right? Wedon't even have a red light. It
blows. It blows up in thesummer. We have probably it's
It's mid July as we're recordingthis, we probably have 15 20,000
people here right now. But youknow that first that first music

(20:21):
festival was in the brand newJam, which my husband Russ was
very instrumental in building,making sure it had it was a gym.
Natori um, had a stage. Iremember watching the build up
of getting the piano, you know,brought in and get it tuned. I
heard these names. They didn'tmean anything to me. But we
were, I think sponsors and kindof had good front row seats for

(20:45):
that. And I will never forgetthe moment when it let's say
it's mark, remind me themusicians it was Mark Nuccio
Nuccio.
She and who's world famous,world famous
a stylist and the piano pianoplayer was Scott clay

Chris (21:04):
er, who was a young and up and coming guy who they were
very excited about because MarkNuccio the clarinetist knew him.
And so he was brought in. So hewas working with two great
musicians that were waselevating his career. They

Lynn (21:18):
were elevating, everybody was elevating. And, and I
remember when they beganplaying, I had never heard a
clarinet be played that well.
That's mark. But But more thananything, there was this moment.
And it was palpable in the room,when there was almost like a
gasp from the audience when theystarted playing. Because we
could have been in New York Cityat Radio City Music Hall for the

(21:42):
quality that was just coming outin our little gym here in North
Carolina. And, and there was amoment where the audience and
they like you could you couldactually I actually remember
watching them, almost get thatweight. Got it. And then they
just played their hearts out.
And I had chills for that entireevening from being in the

(22:07):
presence of that. And how do youdescribe that feeling. And I'd
love your thoughts on it.
Because that may be one of thenights and I grew up by the way
I was. I grew up with a prettyworld class musician friend of
mine, who was a pianist whoended up in a small town playing
for the church. But she had beena concert pianist, she was well
known. So I took piano lessons.

(22:31):
It was a big part of my life. Iwas in choir, I sang all those
kinds of things. So I have addedmusic, but I don't know that I
ever had appreciated music likeI did that first night in that
music festival. With thatfeeling that I've got, which
I've gotten it sense that theother music festivals and other
events, it's quite profound.
What is that? That feeling thathappens? What's your take on

(22:53):
that? Well,

Chris (22:56):
it's a couple of things.
It's kind of like even like in arock concert, you know, you
listen to somebody who loved ona CD, or Spotify. And there's
something different about beingin the room, you know, there's
something different about beingthat close to it. And that's
part of it, you know, to havingthis kind of intimacy with this
great, wonderous talent that youkind of go like, you know, is it
it's something certainlyspiritual, whether you call it

(23:18):
God or whatever, but there issomething. And, you know, I
think people too, it's like,it's like theater in some way.
Sometimes it hasn't felt likeit's been part of the fabric of
American life as it is like overin Great Britain and other
countries. You know, evenEastern European countries,
theater is part of the fabric ofpeople growing up. And we don't
really have that as much inAmerica. You know, it's film and

(23:39):
television and things like thatare where people tend to
gravitate towards but people youknow, when you're in the room
with something happening, it'sit's powerful. I've seen it
happen in the theater wheresomething that you would see on
TV would not impact you as muchas it does in the room, this
conversation, whether it's aboutthe content of what it is or the
emotional response, it's in theroom. So something that gets

(24:00):
deep into our bones into ourmarrow that happens when you're
in the room with something,whether it's theatre, and these
words coming out or greatmusicians that you're that close
to it. And I remember Yeah, acouple things. I remember I do
remember that first moment,because that was the first
moment of the music festivalhappening. We had all this work
had happened. And then it washappening in this new space. And

(24:22):
it was it was really the firstbig event that happened at the
Raptor Center at the school. Andso it was kind of opening up
that space and, and all of asudden, you know, I'd listen to
the I was in rehearsals becauseI was also performing that night
as well. So we were rehearsingit and I watched it develop you
know, they come in classicalmusicians come in, you hear them

(24:43):
play for the first time. If youfeel like, well, they don't need
to do anything else. They'redone because they come in so
prepared. But then even over acouple of days you you recognize
the subtlety that changes in thework we did over three or four
days to get ready for theopening night but I remember
someone in our Group was wastalking about the musical
selections that they werelistening to, like, on YouTube

(25:03):
or on Spotify. And they werelike, I don't know if this music
is accessible enough. It's not.
It's not Mozart, it's not wellknown those melodies or
whatever. And the Friday beforethe Saturday concert, we, we
were there in rehearsal, andthis person was in the room, and
they listened to one of those.
One of those pieces that thatMark Nuccio, the clarinet

(25:28):
clarinet was playing. And we, itwas a rehearsal. And so we'd
opened it up to a few people whowere on our committee, and I
turned around after he hadfinished, and it was, you know,
it was spiritual, it wasglorious in its way, and that
person was weeping. And theywere like, they got it, they got
it now that being in the room isdifferent from listening to it.

(25:49):
And so when you have thatartistry, which is, is profound,
it moves you in some ways, itdoesn't have to be words, you
know, because words can movethis in the theater and, and in
film, and things like that, andthe ideas of storytelling, but
you know, music can bestorytelling as well, even if
there aren't words connected toit. And so I think it does touch

(26:10):
us in some place that has beenpassed down, through, you know,
through the ages to us. And so Ithink that's why the arts
matter, they can reach us incertain ways. And that's why
it's important that even ifit's, even young children are
exposed to the arts, I alwayslook at my, my parents
generation, my parents grew upin New York, and they learned

(26:32):
how to sight read music and playinstruments in, in elementary
school, and, and sing andsightseeing and sight read
music, that that wholegeneration of my parents
generation, all everybody playedinstruments, everybody told
stories, there was a sense ofthe arts reaching people. And I
think in some ways, you know, interms of budgeting, and we

(26:55):
always talk about, you know, dowe give enough money to schools
that, you know, that the arts,you know, sometimes because it's
not tested, it's not part of thecore curriculum of things that
we sometimes lose a sense ofwhat it gives to us, as people,
you know, and so, music in yourlife, even if you don't become
Bruce Springsteen, or whatever,but if you play the guitar,

(27:17):
which I've seen in my life, Iplay music, but, but it's like
to be able to sit around andshare music or, or other arts
with people that you know, youare, enriches your life in ways
that can't be tested. You know,and so, we need that. Because I
think the arts is not, you know,while the arts can be political,

(27:38):
and tell, but, you know, theytell us about who we are as
people, they, they also, it'snot always about conflict, you
know, it's about bringing peopletogether, you know, you sit in a
room, dark theater, or, youknow, we're a concert space and
listen to music, collectively,there's something about
collecting together as people,whether it's storytelling or

(28:00):
music that enriches us, and, andis not about conflict, it's
about, you know, we talkedabout, you know, our country is,
you know, splitting in wayspolitically, that, you know, we
don't in a quiet space,listening to music or, or the
theater that reaches, reaches usisn't an important component to
bring us together. You know, youknow, the Greek word, you know,

(28:23):
theater, the Greek word, itmeans it's the seeing place is
what it means. And, and it's aplace where you go to see things
but also it's a place wherereflects, you know, on who we
are, and says a little bit aboutsomething. I mean, that's why
it's important to go to theaterand go to art is that it
reflects about who we are, andsome of our best places, you

(28:45):
know, the best of us the best ofwho we are not, not the places
that you know, are about, youknow, husbanding resources and
trying to hold on to what wehave. It's about sharing
something.

Lynn (28:58):
So that will boy Oh, that's a huge one right there.
The husbanding of resources issort of. I've had a teacher
describe it, as you can see itas taking something that is less
and using it to enrich yourselfare lifting it up. And to me,
music is such an upliftingthing. And that experience of

(29:23):
feeling. And you know, I wasreflecting as you were talking
about the musician sort ofgetting at you remembering that
moment in the room with all thepeople there. When I did my TED
Talk in 2015, we did a dressrehearsal, it was at the Tryon
Fine Art Center down here downthe road. There were, you know,
maybe 20 people in the room whenwe did the dress rehearsal, and

(29:43):
I have not spent that much timeon stage. It had been a long
time since I've been on a stage.
And so I kind of thought I hadmy dress rehearsal when I went
through the whole speech that Ihad had the experience that I
needed to have. Right right andand The one thing I realized
that day was, Boy, you betterwear some deodorant, you know,
because I was sweating bullets.

(30:07):
But but the next day, when Ishowed up with my deodorant, I
was actually I think on dressrehearsal, they had us wear the
same clothes. So I had actuallycleaned my clothes. But I
remember walking out on thestage, and I had been in the
audience because you know, it'san all day thing, and you're
listening to everybody do theirtalks, and I was somewhere, I
think I was the first one afterlunch. And it took me by

(30:32):
surprise, the feeling I got ofthe energy back from the
audience. And I had to realizein a moment, first of all, I
could feel how much they wererooting for me. And what what I
recognized was, this is a, thisis a wave that I can ride, if

(30:54):
I'm willing to allow myself tobe with the feeling of it. To be
present. Yeah, to be present.
Had I tried to block it. I feellike I would have gone into the
space that I think is sodebilitating in our society
right now. And this is where I'mgoing with this question is a
feeling of anxiousness like, DoI look okay? And am I doing it
right, and this feelsuncomfortable. And so I've, I've

(31:16):
started making a distinction oflight of the distinction between
feel, meaning I felt theaudience I'm present with it,
and feelings, which means I'mfearful and scared and maybe
happy and joyful, but worriedand you know, anxious and all
those things. How do you? How doyou feel? How have you witnessed

(31:37):
for yourself and other artistsyou've worked with? How do you
witness them balancing thatbecause the feelings or the feel
can tap into our insecurities alittle bit, especially when
we're in a public venue, we'rein front of people where we
could look like an idiot. Andall of us, including me have
made mistakes on stage that canbe debilitating. So, tell me how

(31:57):
you ride that way. And how youdanced that tightrope?

Chris (32:02):
Well, you know, it's not always, I think, when you focus
on the fear of what could gowrong, or what could happen,
that you know, and perhaps eventalking about your TED talk is
that if you weren't present, ifyou you know, a lot of times you
hear people say like I don'tknow, not so much that I don't
remember what happened, thatthey were positively inside the
experience, but that they focusso much on what could feel the

(32:25):
fear of it, that they didn'texperience it. And you hear that
sometimes at weddings, wherepeople don't experience their
own wedding, because of themonumental sense of it's our one
chance or one day to have it, wewere just at a wedding where we
were reminding the the youngbride and groom to, you know,
to, to have that experience, youknow, to be present. And they
did a very nice job, that theyhad a joyful day, because they

(32:47):
weren't focusing, they had helpand everything, a lot of you
know, a lot of their people lovethem, we're looking out for
them. But it's, you know, in dayto day, things that can happen
for people, but I've definitelyexperienced it both ways. I've
experienced in a sense where youlet the fear lead you, as
opposed to embracing, you know,nerves and stuff, you hear

(33:08):
athletes talk about that, thatyou know, you have to embrace
being nervous because it mattersto you, right? nerves come
because it matters to you, andyou want it to go well. But you
have to embrace that and realizethat you will get through it.
And I've seen it because being Iwas a professor and a teacher at
a conservatory of people, I'veseen people with real stage
fright, who want to be actorssomehow start to embrace the

(33:30):
fact that you're going to comeout the other side of it, okay?
Doesn't mean you're going to bemistake free, and that things
aren't going to be a part of thejoy of writing, whether it's a
performance or there is that youhave to embrace the unexpected,
you know, live theatre iswonderful, because it you're,
you know, you're writingsomething that you can't control

(33:53):
because it's live and there areother people involved in the
audience's part of it. And, andI remember, there was a famous
actor who I love came to aperformance, a closing night of
performance I was at, and it waspainful, because I felt like
this person was up on stage withme the whole time, you know, and
it was like, almost like, everytime you did something, it was

(34:13):
that little voice just likeeverybody says that little voice
that is questioning yourability, your your your talents,
your your you know, and so itwas not a fun evening on the
stage, even though it was awonderful eight weeks of
performing this play at thisprofessional theater that I work
with. But it was like, you know,allowing your fears to overwhelm

(34:34):
the experience and being so Iwasn't really present. I was
present in some sort ofdimension of, you know, knowing
this person was out there andenjoyed it and loved it. And
that's it. Yeah, but

Lynn (34:44):
what's what's he thinking is what your brain was doing,
right? Yeah. As opposed to

Chris (34:47):
allowing me to trust with the work we had done and trust
what you do. I mean, trustingyourself is important. But you
know, the enormity of havingthis, you know, you know what I
thought was one of the finestactors You have ever kind of
done it in the audience andhearing that person laugh, which
was great, you know, laughing atthe right times and stuff and
enjoying it. But at the sametime, it almost felt like this

(35:09):
person was on stage with you. SoI've had it where I haven't
embraced or trusted you trustingyourself and understanding that
you can't control the experiencethat you have. Whatever you do,
and so, you know, whenever Itaught, you know, acting or
taught directing, or whatever isthat you have to embrace the
experience as opposed to tryingto control the experience. And

(35:31):
so whatever, whatever that is,is going to happen, whether it's
a job interview or presentation,I tried to give real world for
people who weren't going to makeit their business or their
life's work, which I loveteaching college was that that
some people were dipping a toein and kind of going like, do I
like this can do I want to dothis as a career. Even those who
didn't, I said, you know, if youcan do this, if you can embrace

(35:52):
being up on stage, 15 weeks in aclass at a college, you can
embrace that you can do it, andcome out the other side and be
okay. Even if quote, If quote,mistakes happen, or it doesn't
go exactly the way you plannedit plan and prepare, and then
improvise your life, you know,you got to improvise the
experience, you know, you youprepare, which is what musicians

(36:16):
do and actors do you prepare,and then you embrace being
present, you know, the bestmusicians, even the best
classical musicians who are veryregimented, and play the notes
and get it right. In that room,when they're rehearsing. There's
also interpretation andintuition. And it's not that
they're going off and playingsomething else. But there is a

(36:36):
place for improvisation, even inthe structure. And I would say
in your life, you can, there'splace for improvisation even as
you prepare, whether it's for ajob interview, but you because
like in a good job interview,just like this conversation,
it's a conversation. Right? Youknow, it's not you performing
for, you know, for the job, youhave the best interviews, the

(36:58):
best things are conversationsrather than, you know, job
interviews, or, you know, thoseare the things that go best when
there's a give and take your

Lynn (37:08):
it's a love that you called out that's exactly what
we're doing. As we speak in thisconversation. It's a bit of
improvisation. And also this theability to do so even within a
structure of a written paste,because you're not talking about
jazz, which is sort of by designand improvisation, right? There
may be a read, there might be atune a melody that they're gonna

(37:31):
follow, but they play off ofthat in a very, they have a lot
of license to change. Yeah,yeah, a structure. You know. And
the other thing you youmentioned, as musicians, or you
know, as you called it,improvising and interpreting. I,
when I started taking pianolessons, again, as an adult I
had, I called him a piano tuner.
And in my mind, he was just apiano tuner, until he decided to

(37:55):
play the piano. And then heunleashed this amazing blues
that just had my jaw dropping,and it was a very old player
piano, he does his best, it didnot have a great sound, even
when in tune. But my jawdropped. And I was like, Whoa,
can you give me lessons? And itturned out as I learned over the

(38:16):
time, he played with Stevie RayVaughan, at one point he had
played with one of the is itWynton Marsalis. He played he
played a lot of with a lot ofpeople. And so he was pretty
proficient. And as I wasstruggling early on, in our
lessons to play a pieceperfectly. I remember just being

(38:39):
crushed by my mistakes. And hesaid, Lin, I'm a professional
musician, and I've never playeda piece perfectly. And I said,
but I've seen you on stage bythen I had seen a play. I was
like, I saw no mistakes. And hegoes That's because as
professionals, we've learned toplay through the mistakes. Yeah,
he said, we don't get we don'tlet them stop us. We don't go at

(39:02):
let me start over. You know,right, we just keep on playing
and in a way they kind of makethe piece unique, if you will.
And so that was a huge lessonfor me. Now implementing it has
been harder. It's one thing toknow it in my head. Right? That
that it's okay to make mistakes,but then when they hit me, it's

(39:23):
different. So what have youfound that helps the
professionals in your life andyou've been around a lot of
people who are in this exactdomain? What what do you believe
most helps people actuallyimplement this idea of play
through the mistakes?

Chris (39:39):
Hmm, that's a good question. I you know, you you
know the word you useperfection. We talked a lot
about it when I was teaching ata conservatory in New York about
that just the seeking orstriving for perfection can be a
dangerous road to go downbecause you that means there's a
lot of self criticism and Youknow, and part of you, you want

(40:04):
to do your best, you know,there's a technique involved,
whether it's being a classicalmusician or being an actor, that
you're learning a technique, away of working, that you bring
there. But seeking perfectioncan be a very dark road to go
down. So I used to talk aboutfor myself is that when I go
into like, I'd be hired to godirect to play at a professional
theater up in Maine, that Iwould, even though maybe this

(40:26):
wasn't the best way to look atit, but I was, I was striving
and seeking the best. And maybethe word was perfection of the
production that I was directingthat I was handling all the
elements of, but then I had to,I had to embrace the human, the
human side of it, that we wereworking with other people who

(40:46):
are in, we're all imperfect. Sothe idea that you could seek
your highest you could strivefor the best you could, but then
embrace the human part of it isthat we are all fallible. And
that, you know, you weren'tgoing to get a perfect
production out of whatever youuse, but you are striving to do
the best, most authentic work, Imean, authenticity is a big word

(41:10):
for me is that you're trying tobe authentic in your life and
trying to be authentic in thework you do as an artist, that
you and you have to embrace thefoul, you know, being human and
being fallible. And that youwere, you weren't giving
yourself off the hook. Well, I'mnot going to I don't have to
practice today, I don't have toget better at what I do, but
that I am you embrace yourfallibility. And that so that we

(41:33):
talk a lot about in teachingyoung young artists that you
use, you know, you, you striveand work hard to do the best you
can, but you allow this, youknow, the human part of it is
that, you know, there, it's notabout being mistake free, you
know, and putting that onus onyourself that you're so self
critical, that you're your worstcritic, you beat yourself up all

(41:56):
the time. And so I think peopledo that a lot, particularly when
they're striving in theircareers. And what they want to
do is that you you work veryhard, but in you strive for is
called striving for perfection,but understanding that, you
know, the human fallibility ofbringing a bunch of people
together to produce something,and create something, you have

(42:18):
to give space for that, youknow, and that you then if
you're your worst critic, youtend not to do your best work.
You know, if you're so selfcritical, that that's what you
focus on. And that's that littleperson on your shoulder, in your
ear telling you, you're not goodenough for that you're, you
know, particularly in the finearts or performing arts, you
have to embrace the, you know,that it's, there's, there's not

(42:41):
one way to do something,there's, you know, that there's,
there's many ways to make artbeautiful. And so and, and, and
authentic, and that you, you,you can't be your worst critic,
you can, you know, you can makedemands on yourself to be, you
know, to work at what you do tobecome a fine artist, but you

(43:02):
don't need to then be someonewho constantly beat yourself up
in your ear, which can be youknow, demoralizing and not
healthy. You know, and sothere's so there's so many
uncertainties in the artsanyway, that, you know, there's
this balance of, you know, wealways talk about being a hard
worker and doing the work youneed to do. But being so self

(43:23):
critical that you can damageyourself is not not a healthy
way to approach anything,really. So,

Lynn (43:29):
no, and that idea that I play a lot, as I'm a recovering,
self critic, I guess, or beatingmyself up. But but but I've
looked at, you know, I've lookedat the cost in different ways of
beating yourself up and one ofthe things that is really
starting to show up for me now,because I've one of the early

(43:50):
costs that I got right away isactually once you beat yourself
up, you'd actually don't changeanything. Like your your goal is
to change something, but it'skind of like you've taken your
licks, so you don't really haveto change anything, because the
punishment was the selfcriticism, as opposed to using
that to like, create, you know,the momentum to change. But the
latest thing I've started reallynoticing is it does come through

(44:14):
back to that end, same thingthat we've been talking about
around energy that kind of comesthrough in your energy field,
and it takes the work, you know,so I've noticed that the beating
yourself up actually is like itmakes you not as good as you
want to be.

Chris (44:30):
Well, that's where you focus your energy on you focus
your energy rather than onprocess you. You know, it's a
difference between process andend results. You know, if you
only focus if you only focus onthe end result, you know, the
joy, you know, you know, peoplethink of actors is ego driven,
but I know when I was, you know,focusing as an actor or director

(44:50):
in the theater, I've alwaysenjoyed the process more than
the end result. You know, it'sabout and the great thing about
being a director is you leaveafter a couple of days and you
You don't, you're not seeing theshow every night, but you've
done your work. And so you focuson process rather than, you
know, end gaining and sayingthat it's always about the
result, which would be theapplause or the, you know,

(45:13):
whatever, it feels good, youknow, a good concert goes well,
but you have to, if you don'tenjoy the process, you probably
shouldn't do it, you know, ifyou're not enjoying the process,
so embrace, embrace, split theprocess of doing something
rather than just the end resultis, which is, can be more ego
driven, you know, particularlyin the arts, you know, if
you're, you know, as opposed to,you know, a painter, just saw

(45:36):
that a friend of mine thatopened a new studio, and, you
know, if he doesn't lovepainting, there's no reason to
do it, you know, there's, youknow, you've got to love that
solitary process of creatingart. But if you're just critical
about what the end result is,then, you know, if that's what
you focus on, then, you know,it's you're not really focusing
on process, you know, and, and Ithink in anything you do, you

(45:58):
focus on process and try to keepthe, you know, the ego of the
end result in his or, you know,that kind of thing, getting in
the way of, you know, I thinkyou can enjoy your life, if you
don't enjoy the process of whatyou do, you know, if we're
talking about what what

Lynn (46:14):
you also correct, and it's also you notice that when you
were talking about the endresult, you're talking about the
applause. And what you'redescribing, if you're looking at
process is it's more of aninside out way of living, as
opposed to outside in. In otherwords, what you're doing in the
process in the studio byyourself painting or in the, at
the piano practicing or in theyou know, my case, sometimes

(46:36):
right writing or whatever thatmight be, it's the act of it is
driven, where it's an internallocus of control, as opposed to
everything I'm doing is to getthem out there to tell me on
Okay,

Chris (46:50):
right? Well, yeah, and it's yeah, we want to be
recognized, certainly want to berecognized for what you do. But
if that's your focus, then andthat can happen. I mean, you
certainly get, you know, whetheryou're in a job that's not
recognizing the work you do, orthe talents you have, or
whatever you want to keepproving yourself you know, maybe

(47:11):
the journey is to worry lessabout those outside things
telling you, whether you're, youknow, your your value, what you
do. If you're fortunate enoughto do some things that you feel
are valuable. You know, maybethat's enough to focus on that
you know, the things you do thework you do and and being a good

(47:32):
person, others the generosityyou do. You focus on being
generous, I, you know, if youfocus on being generous, I
think, you know, it, you know,it ends up sort of working out
for you, I was listening to oneof your podcasts and, you know,
this idea that you're trying tocontrol the world around you a
little bit, your neighbors arebothering you and bugging you
and you're trying, you're tryingto control everything around

(47:54):
you. You know, you're probablynot as generous when you're
dealing with life's problemswhen you're you know, you're
focusing on what's wrong withother people and what they're
doing. You know, so focusing ongenerosity is certainly helpful.
You know, you don't have tofocus on other things. So,

Lynn (48:12):
yeah, generosity of spirit is something I'm often saying to
clients, you know, it's like,where can you find your
generosity of spirit whenthey're caught? You in that
space, because it changes, itjust almost changes the
direction of the flow, and itcreates a flow in a way. So
yeah, I really liked it. Andyou're and you're right, we do
at the end. Like, I don't thinkI think it's a balancing act. I

(48:34):
think if it's all outside, andit's not good. And if it's all
inside out, it's not good.
There's no, there's no sort ofplace where you can say, Okay,
this is, this was something thatwas worth doing, somebody else
got to enjoy this piece that Icreated for them. Because
there's a part that says, youknow, in our art and anything
else, it's like, here, I madethis for you. Do you like it?

(48:55):
You know, is another piece ofart? Well,

Chris (49:01):
I think it certainly would help to, though, I mean,
on the other side of it is, youknow, read stories about the
generosity of certain companiesand managers and things of
people who are, who are running,you know, companies in terms of
that, whether they're bigcorporations or small. I really
do like seeing the stories wherethere's a generosity top to
bottom where you're seeingpeople I know, you talk to CEOs,

(49:23):
and you talk to people who runthings, that it seems like the
work world works better whenthere's generosity from the top
down in terms of whether it'scompensation or recognition, and
that it's you know, capitalismworks in certain ways, but it's
to me it works better when yousee the generosity working its

(49:45):
way all through the company, interms of web in different ways,
whether it's compensation and orrecognition that you see there's
a certain spirit that valueseverybody, and when I read those
stories, it's it's It'scertainly, it's, it's
heartening, but I'd like to readmore of them, you know, where
you see that happening? Oh, youknow that it's a zero sum game.

(50:10):
You know, it's not just a zerosum game. You know, success
doesn't just come from thebottom line. And so when I read
the stories of, of it workingits way down. I'm heartened by
that. But I'd love to see moreof it.

Lynn (50:21):
I would like to see more myself. And right at the
beginning of this conversation,you talked about sort of that
awareness you had of what it isto serve others. And in the back
of my mind, where I went rightaway is I work with certain
companies where there's aclarity in the entire
organization of how we serve ourcustomers. And when they are

(50:42):
really clear on what it is theydo for their customers, it tends
to create a very differentculture than the culture that
says, we are doing this to makemoney. And when I feel like
might have gotten a little bitout of balance in the
conversation, in maybe I'm notworking with that many global
companies, but and capitalism isthe belief that, that making

(51:08):
money is so important. And, youknow, you talk to venture
capital guys, and people likethat, and they're talking about
cap tables, and, you know,return on equity, and multiples,
and blah, blah, blah. Andthey're, it's all sort of
measuring the blood. And, to me,that's the equivalent of our
lives being that every singleday, all we're doing is looking

(51:28):
at the blood tests for the day,because cash flow in a business
is the lifeblood of theorganization. But it is not the
reason for the organization. Andso what, but you want it to be
healthy, in order for theorganization to be healthy, it's
very critical. But it's not thereason. And so we were running

(51:48):
around looking at our blood testevery day going, well look that
levels up and this levels down.
And, you know, we're going totake, we're going to take our
report to, to our friends to saycheck it out, my blood is the
best it's ever been. There'ssomething off in that. And it's
kind of the same way it is withcompanies. It's just one of the
indicators of the health of theorganization. And so one of my
missions in working with myclients. And, you know, I

(52:10):
started this way back in thedays when I was training
bankers, how to evaluatebusinesses and so forth is,
let's be clear, it's essentialthat we die without our blood,
businesses die without theircash flow. So to nonprofits, as
you well know. Right? It's notabout the money, it's about how,
where you put the money in theconversation. So I really like

(52:32):
your way of thinking about theservice. Because as we think
about what we do, how do weserve our customers? What is it
we're here to do for them? Andit's not to extract money, it is
to provide, you know, why isAmazon so dang successful? You
know, they're making so muchmoney now, not at the beginning.

(52:55):
But it's because they actuallydid really find a way to serve
us in ways that have caused meto become the best recycler of
boxes you've ever seen, becauseboxes showing up that I ever
did. Right, right. You know, Ijust depend on Amazon.

Chris (53:16):
And I would say with them, you know, we don't go too
far down this road. But, youknow, you know, they have had
that success. And now it shouldbe, you know, the people who
are, you know, making thathappen every day in those
warehouses and, and all throughthat company should be
benefiting from that as well,you know, and should be, should

(53:37):
be valued for what they dobeyond the cogs of this giant
organization now, so I hope that

Lynn (53:45):
you just hit Yeah, you just had another one of my hot
buttons, which is the carquestion. And one of the
unfortunate things in the wayour school system started years
ago, many decades ago, when westarted bringing people out of
the fields and into thefactories was we started
teaching them to become cogs.
You know, it's not natural for ahuman to sit in a classroom or a

(54:07):
an office for eight hours a day.
We were not made for that. Butif we're conditioned to do that,
and believe that our job is tobe a cog in the wheel, that's a
whole nother game. And we'vereally pervasively caused that
to be the expected thing, asopposed to having people who are

(54:27):
in those jobs begin tounderstand they are providing a
value as well. And to be able toadvocate for themselves and not
buy into it, because that'llkeep going as long as there are
people willing to be the cog. Soone of my missions in life is to
begin showing people if you flipthis thing around, no matter
where your status is, and startvaluing yourself and

(54:48):
understanding you provide aservice as well. We can break
the cycle of this cog thing andlet people get a little bit back
more to their natural self. Andthere I go getting on my
soapbox, I'll be quiet. Butyou're exactly right. It's not
it's not correct. To takeadvantage of the people that are

(55:08):
providing those services, butyou're this and this is the
point of unions to is helpadvocate for people who don't
have as much of a voice. Butwe are seeing long as you
as long as we don't allow peoplewho don't have a voice, if we
don't show them how to findtheir own voice, they're always
going to be at the mercy ofsomeone else who will use them

(55:29):
for the sake of their agenda.
Sure.

Chris (55:31):
Well, our challenge is to you know, when you're 17, or 18
years old, or however youngpeople start thinking about it,
or have to start thinking aboutwhat they're going to do with
their lives is, you know, thereare certainly times in those
those years where you're notsure what who you are what you
want to do. And, you know, maybethe challenge then is to, you

(55:53):
know, our path is to find outnot only what we do, but who we
are, and, and figure outsomething that that works for
you and your life and whateverthat is that you do. But it's
hard. I know, when you're thatage, there's always that time
when you're, you know, whenyou're figuring out who you are.
And then people start talkingabout, well, what are you going
to do? And what should you dowith your life? I'm not sure

(56:13):
what that answer is what youshould do with your life. My my
life and experience hascertainly been a bit random, you
know, in terms of you know, ofwhat you end up doing. But
certainly, there have been timesin your life where you've got to
keep asking, What am I what am Idoing with my one precious life?
Is it you know, whether you'reserving community, are you? Are

(56:35):
you doing something that youvalue, and you know, that you
find fulfilling, whatever thatis? And, and I'm fortunate to be
able to have that conversation.
So I'm certainly haven't figuredit out yet. Because I know, even
where I'm at now, is that youquestion you make to have those
same questions? Am I? Am I goodat what I do? Do I? Am I doing

(56:55):
what I need to be doing? ShouldI be doing this? You know, those
questions always come, Iimagined throughout your whole
life, you're asking, if you'refortunate enough to be able to
stop and think about it is toask those questions about what
you're doing. Is it fulfillingto you? And is it and to be able
fortunate to be able to do that?

(57:16):
And is a privilege? Certainly,and you have to have gratitude
for that if you're able to stopand stop and have that
conversation? So

Lynn (57:25):
yeah, because it does, it does feel like we get caught up
in it. And I think everybodyactually needs to go through the
cycle of doing whatever it takesto put food on the table. You
know, if you have to just go geta job at McDonald's, or whatever
that is, I think everybody needsto go through that phase as
well. For just for appreciationof what that what that is to

(57:47):
live in that in that place. Andyeah, you know,

Chris (57:51):
everybody's journey, everybody's journey is a little
different to and so, you know,you know, bigger questions, or,
you know, how do we help peopletake a step forward, you know,
and if it's the school, helpingeducate the kids, and getting
them to a better place,preparing them for something
that's worth, you know, that'sworth supporting, if it's

(58:11):
hickory nut, gorge outreach, whoare lending a hand when people
need it, then you know, the goodwork, and I've seen plenty of
people in our community, youknow, doing that good work, you
know, giving, you know, givingyour time is, you know, the best
thing you can do. So if you cangive your time to organizations
and support those and helpothers, then you certainly are
doing something worthwhile, youknow, and I see that

Lynn (58:35):
you definitely hit on what caused us to, you know, be so
dedicated to the school for somany years. And, and really, I
don't know, I don't see him, youknow, ever 100% getting out of
it, because he had such apassion for, you know, providing
an education for kids in the inthe gorge where they didn't have
to get on a bus and go somewhereevery day, for hours a day, and

(58:59):
providing the quality ofeducation that would give them a
chance to fresh, perhaps changethe trajectory of where they
might have otherwise been forthe opportunity to to be in
service and what kind of jobthey might be more talented for,
you know, there's just a lot, alot, a lot of really smart kids
in this community who otherwisemight not have been had a chance

(59:20):
to, like fully realize theirpotential. And

Chris (59:24):
it's really manifested itself and all of a sudden,
there's this campus now there'sthis there's a campus, there's a
gym a tour, and there's aperformance space. It's
beautiful over there, and wherewhere you guys have been here
much longer than we have, butall of a sudden, where there was
nothing there is something whichthen manifests and it manifests
itself into new ideas comingabout which you know, are

(59:46):
happening now and all build uponeach other and it's not a
straight road to success and youknow, everything working out
there are challenges and allthose things that have had to be
pushed through but there areenough people in the community
With Russ, obviously, as Russ, Iimagined, Russ is kind of a
character in your podcasts,because he gets mentioned

(01:00:07):
periodically. I don't know if helikes always, I don't know if he
even listens. But the funnything is, it's under this one.
But someone like yourself andRuss who, you know, inspire
people like us to get involvedand do things, it has a
cumulative effect. And our smallcommunity is better for it, you

(01:00:29):
know, and, and the more peoplepushing in those directions,
brings good things, you know, inRuss, I know is still active and
doing things, and putting hisenergy there. You know,
hopefully, that inspires othersto do the same. And then all of
a sudden, you have a schoolcampus that people are proud of,
and are healthy for the kids towork in, you have these

(01:00:53):
organizations that pop up andstart to do the good work, you
know, in the community. So, youknow, that is from realize we
talked about earlier, puttingyour energy towards something,
and it doesn't have to manifestitself into a giant campus and
all this great things, but itcan manifest itself in helping
you know, one person in yourneighborhood or, you know, we're
in your community, and, youknow, it all starts with an

(01:01:15):
idea, right? It does start withan idea and a will to do it. And
somehow you get there with allthe, you know, the challenges
and obstacles that happen. Andthat's how communities, you
know, change and grow getbetter, you know, we need people
like that to, to give their timeand efforts.

Lynn (01:01:33):
Well, you know, you you alluded to this early in the
conversation, this idea of youput the energy in, and then you
have all these obstacles and soforth. And, and without a doubt,
it takes like a handful ofpeople, Russ being one of them,
for example, at the school thatjust kept plugging along. And,
and overcoming obstacles. And Iremember, for example, and boy,

(01:01:55):
I mean, Russ, Russ doesn't letobstacles stop him. In fact,
sometimes I think he loves them.
Because one day, it was in 2015,they were building the new
campus. And there was somethinghappening in the foundation, and
they needed holes dug orsomething. And the equipment
wasn't working. I don't knowwhat, but he went and got our
tractor, and took it over thereand just did whatever the thing

(01:02:15):
was that needed to be done. Andlike there, now you can keep
moving. Because if you don't getthis done today, he could see
what was going to happen to theschedule. I would bet that you
have 100 stories like that foryourself with a music festival.
Are there any? Are there anyparticular places or stories
that you remember where you sortof dawned on you, wow, I'm going

(01:02:37):
to, like if this thing is goingto keep going, I'm gonna have to
lean in in a way that I didn'texpect to have to lean in. Is
there anything you're willing toshare along those lines?

Chris (01:02:49):
Well, you know, the pandemic, you know, what's
interesting about the pandemicwe came out of it is like, we've
got a start up again. And weweren't even sure this was I
guess, 2022. Now, we weren'tsure even at that point, how we
could gather and what we coulddo, and we'd had set up that the
Broadway concert, we were goingto bring in people from New York

(01:03:11):
and Broadway and do it in 2020.
And of course, we delayed it forthe health, you know, we
couldn't gather together the waywe want to. And we had to switch
out how we were going to do it.
Because that first year and ifyou remember we had, what was
great about the first year isthat we had $10 tickets for
everybody. And then if youwanted to meet the musicians and
have dinner and everything wehave, you know, we had a way to

(01:03:31):
raise more money for the schooland make everything more viable.
So people could go to the lakeLorien and, and have dinner with
musicians after the concert. Sowe had that level ticket as
well. So when we came out of thepandemic, we were like, well, we
can't really have that dinnerthat we were going to have in
2020. Because we weren't sure ofgathering 150 people in a closed
room that would be safe forpeople at that point. And so we

(01:03:54):
you know, we came back and youknow, we were still living in
New York, in New York City. Andso we weren't in the, in the
community, trying to figure outhow we move forward. You know,
and that's one of the things Ilearned I'd started a theater up
in New England. And it's alwaysbetter when you walk into the
hardware store. And you're notgoing like you're only just not
talking about, you know, themusic festival. You know, when

(01:04:15):
I, when we meet, it's not justtalking about the music
festival. And I found that forme being in the community and
living here is that when I meetpeople I know and everything
it's not always with Hey, canyou help the music festival? Can
you be a sponsor? Can you dothat? You know, you're part of
that community a little bit. Sowe were still kind of far away.
We were up in New York City. Andso we were coming down here when

(01:04:37):
we could and doing things I'dcome down for a week and work on
it and go back up to New York,but I was engaged in what I was
doing in New York. And so Irealized coming out of a
pandemic that, you know, I'drelied on certain people. We
have a committee of people whowere helping us but they were
not, you know, event producers.
They were not music producers.
And so, Kathy and I my wifeKathy, who was An event producer

(01:05:01):
and a world class event. Personin New York, you know, our
experiences and what we knew wewere doing work from New York
and working when we could tomake it happen. And we just kind
of realized coming out ofpandemic, that we had to tighten
up things because we couldn'tget together like we did before.
And we were going to somehowfrom like, March of 2020, to
somehow get concerts togetherfor June. And, you know, we were

(01:05:24):
sort of like, okay, as soon aswe hit the ground running, since
we get to Lake lower, we'regonna have, we have about three
or three, four weeks to puteverything together and promote
it. And I was running around,going from Forest City to a
radio station there over toHendersonville to, you know, we
just were head down, and tryingto get the word out as best we

(01:05:46):
could. And we were fortunatethat we were able to get started
again. But that was kind of theturning point, because we came
out of the pandemic, sort of notknowing how people would gather
and how we could successfullymove forward. And we got through
that, that season. And builtupon that, so that the last two
years 2023 and 2024, have reallykind of kind of been a

(01:06:09):
compounding, you know, successin terms of being able to help
the community and so we're, youknow, we're about to announce,
you know, our, our donations areprobably, there might be a story
in the mountain breeze on August1 With us, you know, making a
donation to the school, andtheir new programs about feeding
the children and stuff. Andthat's all going to happen in

(01:06:30):
the next couple of weeks. Andthen we're going to make our
donation to the hickory nutgorge outreach. So it kind of
felt like when we came back outof the pandemic, there was two
people in New York sort of goinglike, Okay, what do we do now?
To make the concert happen inabout six weeks? Wow. So yeah,
so we we had everything sort oflined up, ready to go. But we
had all the on the ground stuffwe had to do. And so somehow we

(01:06:53):
got through that. And that kindof, you know, was a springboard
to 2023 being so successful in2024, as well, so

Lynn (01:07:02):
yeah. Oh, yeah. It's every year. Although I remember, as
you're talking about, I wasthinking 20, June of 2022. I
didn't go to that one. Oh, yeah.
That was the first time I gotCOVID. That June of 2010, we had
been to the CMA fest. And that'swhat that's right. COVID. And
you were coming in, then youwere right. Yeah. And I was
coming. And then I tested and itwas like, I'm not going

(01:07:24):
anywhere. And actually, youknow, we talk about the
pandemic, like it's in the past,but just this last week, I had a
coaching intensive for took twodifferent coaching clients here.
And on Sunday evening of theopening part of the session, we
found out that one of the womenhas had COVID. And she was
actually ready to get in the carand drive here. And I said, Can

(01:07:45):
you just do a COVID test beforeyou show up with whatever this
nasty thing I can hear in yourvoices. And she came back and
said, I took the COVID test, andI have COVID. So it's still
here, you know, and so you'vefound a way not to put people in
the big room. Thank you forthat. Because I had something
after being on a flight a coupleof months ago. I didn't test
this time, but I'm guessing itwas COVID. I just I didn't test

(01:08:08):
because I said I'm just going toquarantine. And whatever this
is, I don't want to give it toanybody else. So, you know, we
were also we were alsochallenged doing that, you know,
we're go ahead,

Chris (01:08:22):
we were also challenged in 2022 is that we were bringing
all our musicians together andhow do you get through the week?
You know, we were we had atesting, we had a testing
protocol for 2022 people testedbefore they got here, because we
were bringing about 10 musicianstogether. Or maybe 12, I guess
15 and one and it was actuallyone of our local we hired some

(01:08:45):
local people for the Broadwayconcert. And our we did the
program. And of course, I thinkit was the bass player was like,
oh, or the drummer was like, Oh,he's got COVID He's out right
before we started localrehearsals. And so we were we
were certainly that was one ofour challenges is how do we
bring all these people together?
Where are we going to housethem? How are we going to keep
everybody safe that week? Youknow, and I actually, that same

(01:09:06):
year in April, I was directing aplay at a professional theater
and we all gathered the veryfirst day in the room. There's
about 15 or 20 of us and we alltested and all of a sudden
somebody was leaving. And wewere like, Yeah, you're right.
So we had to make thosedecisions, certainly not to
bring a bunch of people togetherin a room for a big dinner. We

(01:09:26):
were trying to figure out how dowe do this successfully and
safely. And so there were thoseconsiderations in theaters and
concerts and people all over theworld were doing that. So and
some you know, still there.
There are companies that arestill struggling to get back to
their capacity of what they hadas people coming because

(01:09:47):
people's viewing habits change.
People realize they could spendtheir lives watching Netflix and
and all that stuff and not haveto pay $50 to go see a play or
go see a concert they couldspend $10 or $15 on there, and
have as much entertainment asthey want. So people, you know,
we're slowly even in New York onBroadway, coming back slowly to
get back to a capacity they hadpre pandemic. And so, so we're

(01:10:10):
seeing that still. But we havethere certainly focus on keeping
people safe that first year and,and we're worried less about it
moment to moment. But we'restill when we bring people
together, we have to think aboutit in terms of, you know, how do
you do it in a way that keeps itso that you can go on because
you get to that week whereyou're doing the concert and you
lose somebody? How do youreplace them? And how do you

(01:10:33):
keep people safe, and you know,knock on wood, we've been able
to do that. So you have to worryabout your, your patrons and the
people you bring in. You

Lynn (01:10:43):
know, it's funny that you talk about the change the
changes of the pandemic, becauseI've one of the things I've
recognized even just even inthis last week, I am less likely
to go out to eat than I used tobe. Not because I'm worried
about getting COVID. But becauseI got very good at preparing

(01:11:04):
very good food when we didn't goout. And so my standards have
gone up. So I'm not as willingto go have a mediocre meal out
if the service is not going tobe great in the first start
going to be great. I'm like, I'mgonna do better eating here, go
home. And people

Chris (01:11:19):
people, there's a lot of churches change. Yeah, even in
like, I go work in a resorttown, one of the theaters I work
at, and they even found thatpeople who would come and go out
to dinner every night when theyare now only going out the first
night they were there. And maybethe last night they were there.
And so people's habits certainlyhave changed a bit, I think in
terms of that. So it does impactarts organizations in that way.

(01:11:42):
And people have a, you know,their, their, their routines
have changed in that in thatsense as well. We also were, we
were also figuring out howpeople's routines would change
when they come out. And we'restill figuring that out. Because
the first year we love the waythat work, but we're not sure it
can work this, you know, nextyear, that we go to a certain
model of how we present ourconcerts and things like that.

(01:12:05):
So we're, it's we're still it'sstill evolving for us. Well,

Lynn (01:12:09):
I mean, if there's anybody that can figure out how to keep
improvising and adapting, it's,you know, question about that?
Well, we'll figure it out.
Right?
Well, it actually, is thereanything that you can tell us
about what may be coming? Canyou drop any hints about who
might be the next artist? Or isit still a work in progress at

(01:12:33):
this point? I

Chris (01:12:33):
can't announce the artists but well, we like what
we did last year, this balanceof this. And we're you know,
last year we had Appalachianroad show come in in the summer,
big bluegrass concert, andeverybody loved them. And then
we have a smaller, you know, Ialmost call it like a living
room series of the clap. Theclassical concert was a small

(01:12:54):
100 seat. Very intimate. Youtalk about talking about earlier
about this idea of being in theroom, being four feet away from
these world class musicians whowho can play like nobody else
can do. And so that's what wedid last October. We ended up we
had to switch venues. Because ofa facility issue. We ended up at

(01:13:14):
the gardens, beautiful acousticsbut you were this close to, you
know, to two people who wereplaying we had Wendy Sutter
playing cellist from New Yorkwho plays in New York
Philharmonic and as played was,you know, all over the world.
And then she even came back fora second. Yeah.

Lynn (01:13:32):
We took him out on the boat. I remember. Yeah, I got to
meet I got to meet that.

Chris (01:13:37):
We liked that idea for this year as well. So we had
sister Sadie come in about amonth ago.

Lynn (01:13:43):
Love them. Love them. I

Chris (01:13:47):
don't know people were walking out of there going like
I didn't think you could improveon Appalachian roadshow.
Amazing. There was a lot ofgreat energy up on that stage.
And we really appreciated themand they're just a tremendous
band. So we thought let's dosomething. Let's do something
small again, for the classical.
So we're gonna announce thatprobably in the next week or

(01:14:07):
two, we're gonna do another like90 to 100 seat event, very
special food and drink provided.
Come see, you know, a classicalmusician come in and very close.
Very close, intimate kind ofnight. One of the we're about to

(01:14:28):
announce a young man who's onthe rise, one of the 10 great
players coming you know, and sowe we haven't signed the
contract yet. So we're not goingto announce it till we do that,
but, but he's going to come inand we're going to have a great
intimate concert with food anddrink and you'll get to know him
and talk with him. What wasgreat about last year was Wendy

(01:14:49):
and she were just so wonderfulabout talking about what it's
like to be a renowned musicianand how do you how do you work
with composers? What's it like?
To play this famous piece fromMozart or this, this piece that
was written for you by PhilipGlass, when he had had all she
had, she had a fill of glass,right, a whole album of music

(01:15:11):
for her. That was, I guess, themost successful classical music
album or a CD of like, whateveryear was that she came out? And
so, you know, talked about howdo you work with a living
composer and someone who's been,you know, who's been dead
through the years and thismusic, you know, and, you know,
so it was really wonderful. Itwasn't so much a question and

(01:15:34):
answer kind of thing. Peoplecould ask questions, but it was
kind of like, I'm talking aboutwhat you were listening to in
the song, why was it writtenthis way? What are the two
instruments talking to eachother? What's really, you know,
what should you be listening to?
And so we're going to dosomething like that, where you
don't get that kind of, it'slike a living room, like you're
in someone's living room withthese amazing musicians and sort

(01:15:56):
of going like, okay, you know,what can I understand about
what's the conversation ishappening here? And, and what am
I listening for? And why did themusician interpreted this way?
It's, it was really fun. And soit was a very successful night.
People said they wanted thatagain, and they would like to
have that again. So we're goingto do that in October, it's
going to be Saturday, October 5,at the gardens in rolling ball,

Lynn (01:16:20):
and so that variate is good to know. Yeah,

Chris (01:16:23):
yeah, that is the date.
So that's going to be our secondconcert for this year. We're
already talking about next year,just because we have to, you
know, we start planning and someof these bands make their plans
very early. And so we're tryingto trying to decide what works
for us in 2025. The communityhas stepped up and you know, is
saying yes, you know, we hadgreat sponsorship your, your

(01:16:45):
company. And both years, youguys did mystic, Mystic waters
farm last year and creativespirits unleashed this year. So
I mean, that inspires usbecause, you know, if you didn't
have that you would reallystruggle to be able to do it,
you know, to bring some bringthat level of musicianship to
our small area that we'repulling people who are coming in

(01:17:07):
from Asheville andHendersonville and Forest City
and you know, we do have peoplehave driven we've got some we
have more information about thepeople come here, you know, some
people drive two hours to comehere but you know, to pull
people in from all over to have500 people on the beach, you
know, on the lake is challengingin a in an area that has 1000
People like you said are 1200people who live here year round.

(01:17:29):
So we you know, we certainlycouldn't do it without great
sponsorships. Jeff guys alertrumbling bald has been our main
sponsor, Lynn Weaver. premiersotheby's Julie McKinney, you
know, these people in thecommunity who say like, Hey, we
want to help you do what you doso we can help others. It's been
amazing. I mean, we have newsponsors this year, we have

(01:17:51):
Chaney brothers came in theirfood distributor company,
enterprise rent a car fleet canUnited Bank came in. We have a
bunch of individuals who havecome in, we could, you know, we
could talk about all of them.
But you know, so we have thesecompanies doing it and also
individuals who sponsor and ourdonors that are, you know, the

(01:18:13):
underpin of everything, so thatwe can bring in, you know, the
bands don't come in for free,you know, they they're playing
well. My sister Sadie is playedthe play the Grand Ole Opry,
like a week or two ago.
Appalachian roadshow was just atthe Grand Ole Opry. So we're
gonna have you're gonna havepeople of that caliber, or you
have people playing at LincolnCenter in New York or playing in

(01:18:34):
Germany or South Korea, they'replaying all over the world. You
know, you've got to pay them tocome in and they love and one of
the things I I was talking aboutin this interview with the
mountain breeze is thateverybody who's come to Lake
lower all want to come back. Sothat's so

Lynn (01:18:56):
good. That's a huge measure of Yes, well, and she
did like chi Yong came downthere like

Chris (01:19:03):
let's when can we come back and there's it was funny
when talking to the guys fromAppalachian roadshow, one of the
guy who is the fiddle player forthem was he talked about at the
concert they were looking out atLake Laurie so you know, I used
to when I was a little kid, Iwas right there. You know, and I
want to come back he says, Canwe come back next year you know
and you know we'd love to havethem back maybe do like a All

(01:19:23):
Star kind of bluegrass thingwith them and sister Sadie but
you know they want to, they wantto come back they like they love
for these festivals to work. Andif you know our community treats
them really well. They you know,you guys took a bunch of
missions out on the lake we dolike a lake like Lake cruise,
sunset cruise. We feed them youknow, we do some things that are

(01:19:47):
kind of nice. So they go likethis is a great place to come
back and work and whetherwhether it's chamber music or
Broadway people like when you'regoing to have us back which I
think is a good says good thingsabout our community. So Good
things about the festival theway it's, you know, people in
the music business want to comeback here. As soon as we

(01:20:07):
finished the sister Sadieconcert, their managers like I
got a bunch of Acts. So I'd loveto have and play play like
Laura, they certainly they'regetting, we're getting the word
out, it's good place to come andget some time. Yeah,

Lynn (01:20:22):
that is so cool. Well, and that says, I have to say that
also says a lot for what theyexperienced in terms of working
with you on the way back becausethe place is great. But I know
as somebody who gets called into go do events or speeches or
whatever the interaction withthe venue, the people the, you
know, is my room taken care ofis, you know, do all the little

(01:20:45):
knits in that so that do theywork, you don't go back if it
doesn't work. So the fact thatthey want to come back says a
lot for you as well.

Chris (01:20:52):
Yeah, those are the those are the details. And certainly
Kathy is the details orientedperson. So oh

Lynn (01:20:58):
my goodness. And we have to say, I have to do a shout out
for your wife Kathy, because I'malso occasionally a little bit
of, I think, an event producer,in terms of doing small retreats
and sometimes larger, especiallywhen I corporate clients helping
me Cafe used to produce 400events a year, we

Chris (01:21:20):
did a couple a couple years we counted and it was one
year was five 511. Okay,

Lynn (01:21:25):
so still can't even imagine, just do your do your
math people that are listening365 days a year. And that's way
more than one a day. And thatmeans they had to have many of
them happening simultaneously onthe same day. That means you're
really good at asking for helpreally good at hiring great
people that help you pull thingstogether. And when you call her

(01:21:47):
earlier, a world class eventproducer, You're not kidding. So
big shout out for thatcapability. And what she brings
to the table, it's

Chris (01:21:56):
good to have someone in my ear who's very detail
oriented, so it helps keep me onpoint, certainly details,

Lynn (01:22:02):
they matter so much I'm preparing right now to go do a
big speech. Luckily, up here inthe mountains, I'm only going to
have to drive not have to flythese days, I don't want to fly.
But you know, they've got areally cool system where I'm
inputting all my details, youknow, they want my social media
stuff, they want some pictures,you know, it's pretty cool,
what's what's happened over thelast few years of getting signed

(01:22:23):
up, kind of, like when yousigned up for this podcast, we
have like a link and you pulleverything in, and I don't have
to chase it, and they are nothaving to chase me,

Chris (01:22:31):
it takes a lot of work to get get that stuff out there,
you know, yeah, to do to do thesocial media stuff to do your
websites and to do you know, toset up the ticket, you know, the
ways to do things to get peoplethere, you know, in marketing,
you know, marketing areinteresting now, because you're
you know, we do a lot of stuffon on social media. And you

(01:22:51):
know, we're not of the age thatwe are social media experts, but
you learn quickly because youhave to, and it is kind of
exciting that you put somethingout there and you you get the
analytics and you know, you'vereached 5000 6000 7000 people a
certain way or whatever. And youYou know, I couldn't tell you,
it's kind of like looking underthe engine of your, your car,

(01:23:12):
hood. And kind of I don't knowhow it works, but it seems to
work. And, you know, it's, youknow, it's fascinating to look
at, even though it's not an X,you know, anything we're expert
at, but it's kind of interestingto look at how do you fill in
the pieces to get people to knowabout what you're doing? You
know, and whether you reach intoI like doing there, I like doing
the radio programs, I like doingit. I don't think I've ever done

(01:23:34):
a podcast before but I do like,you know, this interaction, you
know, I've been on radiostations, and it's fun to
interact with people and stuff.
And if that reaches people oldschool, which is radio, you
know, radio is an old schoolmedium, which I've always loved.
You know, it's, you know, it's anice way to reach the community.
And I guess all the radiostations now have cameras in

(01:23:54):
there. So they're on Facebookand, and doing and doing social
media. So I know

Lynn (01:24:00):
I had to pay attention because I've done a couple of
radio interviews at the sameplace that you've been to as one
of your venues dan in ForrestCity. Or rather for 10 I guess
and I had to remember that thecamera was on while I was
talking on the radio writerviewer, right because there's
there's things you need to payattention to when you're on
camera. But you know what I'velearned with this podcasting

(01:24:22):
thing. To me this is a littlebit like radio in that if you go
in if you get in my car rightnow, every single day I've got
podcasts teed up for my drives,I actually don't listen to music
then once in a while I do butbut for the most part for me to
pass time I like to listen toconversations. Interestingly

(01:24:43):
enough, I don't like to listento audiobooks either. You know,
I'm from an area era of learningto read ever have had a book
going since I could read I don'tremember not having a book going
that I read every single day.
But my eyes like like my my Ihave a vivid imagination I can,
my eyes will take me in to thatto the place and I really go

(01:25:05):
inhabit the place. If I try tolisten, it's just doesn't do the
same thing. Although listeningto a podcast is just wonderful
for me. So talk radio evidentlywas my thing. And now they've
become talk radio. But ratherthan having to listen to whoever
happened to be on talking at thetime, I get a lot more choice

(01:25:26):
about who I'm listening to.

Chris (01:25:30):
That's true. And I remember one growing up, you
know, my, we listened to talkradio, even sharing with Larry
King, before he was even anational figure, he was based
out of Miami, and he had agreat, he had great shows, and
it was all these wonderful hostsdown there who could really talk
about just about anything, andthere was kind of about four or
five of the best talk radiopeople came out of that, that

(01:25:52):
area, and we would listen tothem growing up. I remember
listening to, you know, a bunchof people on long drives, cross
country drives and stuff. And soyeah, I see it the same way that
the podcast is kind of extendedtalk radio, you know, yeah, and
a little more focused, becauseyou can pick and choose what you
want to, and there's certainly alot of options. But it is like,
it's like old school, talkradio, just a little more

(01:26:15):
refined with, you know, doing itwith the technology and choosing
what you want to listen to.
Well,

Lynn (01:26:21):
and that's the there's like two sides to that, because
the technology has almost madethe gatekeepers obsolete.
Whether it be in self publishinga books, or what we're talking
about here with your musicfestival, you know, promoting
your music festival, socialmedia gives us all an ad chance
to go out and market our ownbooks and what, or events or

(01:26:46):
whatever. And what I learned inthat is, you're kind of expected
to bring your own audience, youknow, not no longer is a book
publisher, for example, saying,Oh, I pick you land, and now I
will make you famous. They'relike, I'm picking you land,
because you are already famousand bringing us an audience. And
so you know that that pace, youmentioned earlier about the role

(01:27:09):
that we play of promoting, andgetting it out in social media
and letting people know what'sgoing on and getting word of
mouth? I've come to reallyrecognize the value of what you
said about the artists, do theywant to come back? Do they want
to tell their friends about you?
You know, if we're to really getthe word out, it's like, how do
you get the people who loved itto tell their friends so more

(01:27:31):
people can hear. And that's howwe grow it.

Chris (01:27:37):
Perhaps being a good generous host works in many
ways. Not just at your home, butalso on a podcast. But yeah,
people, people like to come backto places where they're valued
and respected. And, you know, wewere talking earlier, you know,
being a good listener, you know,is a skill that certainly we all

(01:27:59):
could get better at, you know,and, and a man, being a good
listener is part of that, andI'm sure being a podcast host is
part of that, you know, in termsof being a good host, and, and
having someone on as being agood listener and, and being
curious, right, and I thinkthose kinds of skills, translate
everywhere, you know, and sowhether any kind of work force

(01:28:20):
or any place, or being a goodfriend, right, is being a good
listener, and, and not, youknow, not needing to have the
focus on yourself or talking,you know, about what's going on
with you is that there are timesto be a good listener, and it's
nice when someone's a goodlistener to you, right? We
certainly appreciate that, interms of people just asking, how

(01:28:40):
are you? And and how are youdoing? And, and what's going on
with you, you know, and so I'dimagine that translates to not
only here, but elsewhere, peoplevalue that now. Because you
know, there are lots ofplatforms now live, and feels
like they can talk somewhere.
And the impersonal part ofsocial media doesn't work when
people can't talk to each other.

(01:29:03):
And so I would say that's askill everybody can develop is
being curious and being a goodlistener. And

Lynn (01:29:09):
isn't that aren't those two of the like, core elements
of improvisation? Yeah, theyare. The most brilliant
improvisation I've seen is whenthey caught like this really
promising thread that might notbe really obvious and take off
with that beautiful thread. AndI love I love that, well,

Chris (01:29:28):
we're having a conversation rather than you're
interviewing me, or, you knowwhat I'm saying? It's like, I'm
sure that makes it morepalatable, because, you know,
it's gonna go where it's gonnago, but you have to be a good
listener. I'm not You're notthinking about what you're
saying. Next. You're listening.
You're being a good listener. SoI'd say that's important. For
sure. Yeah.

Lynn (01:29:48):
I don't know that I could do the interviewing thing. And
you know, where I learned to dothis, by the way, it's when I
was a banker. Oh, okay. Becausethey would train us to go in and
find out what was going on withthe business and stuff.
Sometimes these were difficultconversations, because, you
know, it was like, where areyour financial statements? Or
why are your financialstatements showing that you're
suddenly losing money and youneed to pay us back and, you

(01:30:09):
know, just having to gain a lotof data. And they the way they
trained us to interview I hateit, because it felt like an
interrogation. Right. And what Ibegan to learn to do was just
have a list of things I neededto know and go in and have a
conversation with the person.
And then at the end of theconversation, did I find out
everything I needed to know?

(01:30:31):
Right? And then ask anyquestions that were left over.
And so it kept me in the flow. Ilike being I like the I like
conversation a lot more thansure.

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