#99 Carolyn Swinton: Chasing Hope

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:02):
Lynn, Welcome to Creative spirits unleashed, where we talk
about the dilemmas of balancingwork and life and now here's
your host, Lynn Carnes,

Lynn (00:18):
welcome to the creative spirits unleash Podcast. I'm
Lynn Carnes, your host. My guestfor this episode is Carolyn
Swinton, who is an executivecoach and consultant and who
also happens to be one of myformer clients. We worked
together years ago when she wasthe chief nursing officer of a
large hospital organization. Westayed in touch over the years,

(00:39):
and more than once after we hada meaningful conversation, I
hung up thinking we should haverecorded that for a podcast.
Well, we finally did it. Thisconversation touched on a number
of themes, everything frommaking the distinction between
knowledge and wisdom to learningto take nothing personally, to
finding hope when everythingseems out of kilter. Carolyn has

(01:02):
a way of empowering people tolive a purpose driven life, as
she does, and that was one ofthe core themes of this
conversation. She emphasizes thevalue of learning to be present,
something that I find mucheasier said than done, and yet
is so very possible when shetalks about it. Now, here's a
little bit more about Carolyn.
Carolyn Swinton is an executivecoach and consultant, drawing on

(01:25):
her 30 plus years of experienceas a C suite executive guidance
is often needed to unleash thepower and potential that lies
within us all. Carolyn's purposeis to guide and support
individuals and organizations intheir journeys to achieve their
full potential and live theirbest lives, she utilizes the
proven practices of traditionaland directed coaching, powerful

(01:47):
questions, reflective practicesand deep empathy to support a
deepening self awareness,effective communication and the
cultivation of meaningfulrelationships to help clients
awaken to their truth. Carolynhas coached middle and senior
leaders in the healthcare andbusiness sectors, and is the
right fit for clients ready todeepen their self awareness and

(02:09):
master the tools they need toeffectively communicate, resolve
conflict and achieve operationaland cultural transformation.
Most recently, she served as aChief Nurse executive for the
largest healthcare system inSouth Carolina. In addition to
her executive coaching, she alsoserves as affiliate faculty at
the University of South CarolinaCollege of Nursing, an affiliate

(02:32):
clinical associate professor atthe Clemson University School of
Nursing. Carolyn has coachedleaders utilizing the leadership
circle 360 and leadershipmaturity assessment profiles as
guides to support leaders indeveloping and understanding of
themselves and others, coachingin alignment with the principles
of vertical development, Carolynsupports leaders in transforming

(02:54):
their way of thinking, speakingand being to achieve sustainable
change. Carolyn is a fellow ofthe American College of
Healthcare Executives, fellow ofthe Riley Institute diversity
leaders fellowship program, andan ANCC board certified nurse
executive. She is a certifiednew field network coach for

(03:17):
personal and professionalmastery international coaching
Federation, associate certifiedcoach, certified in leadership
circle 360 and manager edition,my worldview practitioner for
adult development, and is anEverything DiSC certified
practitioner. Carolyn has adoctorate degree in nurse
executive leadership from theUniversity of South Carolina,

(03:40):
College of Nursing. Carolynserves on the boards of several
state and local nonprofitorganizations whose mission is
to support the underserved anddisadvantaged to gain social and
financial stability. She is theauthor of chasing hope, a
nurse's reflections on healingand hope, reflections of
nursing, and CO editor of theuntold stories of nursing for

(04:03):
fun, Carolyn likes to read, playthe guitar and travel. I know
from hearing that bio that youcan see what a deep and rich
executive and executive coachthat Carolyn Swinton is, and I
know you are going to love thisepisode with Carolyn Swinton.
Carolyn Swinton, or should Isay, Dr, Carolyn Swinton.

Carolyn (04:27):
Carolyn Swinton is fine.

Lynn (04:29):
Welcome to the creative spirits unleash Podcast. I'm
happy to be here with you. Thankyou for coming to do this.
Actually that moment, as I wasjust saying, is, should I say
you and I have known each otherfor a really long time now,
something over 15 years, andwe've worked together in a lot
of different ways andcapacities. But one of the

(04:51):
things that I marvel is thatsomewhere in that time you got
your PhD,

Carolyn (04:56):
uh, yeah, actually my DNP, DMP,

Lynn (04:59):
okay. Okay, so explain what a DMP is.

Carolyn (05:04):
US Doctor of Nursing Practice in my specialty track
is executive leadership.

Lynn (05:10):
Anyway, anytime you have a doctor in front of anything,
that's a big deal.

Carolyn (05:14):
Yeah, it was a big deal for me, and maybe not for the
reasons that everyone chooses topursue that degree, but I was
ready to learn. I felt like Ineeded to know more. Wanted to
remain relevant in the field,and just ready to learn. You

(05:38):
know,

Lynn (05:39):
we have a lot to talk about on the way. You are a
hungry learner, but what I'mcurious about is the reserves,
or maybe not reserves, but whereand how did you find the focus
and energy in the middle ofeverything else you had going on
at the time to put yourself inthat kind of program and keep

(06:04):
yourself like, keep all theballs in the air, if you will,
at one time. Because I know itwasn't something you took
lightly, and I know it was notsomething you did sort of half
assed either.

Carolyn (06:17):
You know, I felt compelled to move in this
direction. I don't know. There'ssomething you know about my
life, how I think, how I feel,more specifically how I feel, or
I just, I get the call, youknow, to move forward in a
certain direction. And I feltlike this is the time. And I

(06:41):
also felt like this is the onlytime, the only opportunity that
I will have to pursue thisdegree. Wow.

Lynn (06:55):
So you used a very important word that I think gets
misused a lot, and that's thethe F word you said, how I feel.
And a lot of us get conditionedto only think, don't let your
feelings run you, etcetera. Weget a lot of messages like that.

(07:19):
And what I have gotten to knowwith you is that you are very
tuned in and that you usefeelings as a guide, not as a
willy nilly. Oh, I don't feellike it today, so I'm not going
to do it kind of way. So tell mehow you've come to learn to use

(07:43):
the way you feel so effectively.

Carolyn (07:48):
Well, I think it's been a lot of, I guess, not knowing
trial and error, if you will. Ithink it became more conscious
as I went through my coachtraining, and have done
additional work just aroundpaying attention to the body and
ontological coach, which reallyincorporates everything, your

(08:12):
feelings, your language, youryour emotion, and paying
attention to the body. And so inthat process, you know, my body
signals me, lets me knowsomething's right. If something
doesn't feel safe, it lets meknow when I've arrived at a

(08:33):
certain place or certaindecision or certain condition.
And so from that space, I takethat information that my body is
giving me, and then I reflect,I'm like, okay, so what do I
need to do? What do I need tosay? How do I need to show up?

(08:56):
And that has served me well,because I don't naturally, and
this has come through practiceand a lot of hard work. I don't
necessarily react in the momentin terms of how I'm feeling, but
I choose to respond and in thatsort of way of kind of showing

(09:17):
up or moving forward. It helpsme to, you know, get to where I
need to be.

Lynn (09:26):
So you said your body signals, and you you use the
word, you use the wordontological in context of
coaching, which I've never gonethrough a coaching certification
that does Ontological Coaching,but boy, have I worked with a
lot of colleagues who who dothat, and it helped me
understand just how much wisdomour body carries, and what

(09:48):
actually, one of the thoughtsthat was rolling around in my
head this morning was the brainis not the only part of us that
thinks our body also knows and.
Yes, it's something that I couldprobably couldn't have known any
sooner than I did, but I reallywish I'd known this so much
sooner, because it we often aretaking actions to resolve the

(10:10):
feelings in our body withouteven realizing that that's what
we're doing. We think we'redoing something logical, and
we're really just trying toresolve the feelings that are
happening in our body. Thatsometimes can be, like you said,
a signal, sometimes it can benoise. So how have you learned
to discern what's a what's atrue signal, and when you're

(10:34):
getting interference,

Carolyn (10:40):
uh, there's, I know there. There's distinctions,
yeah. So there's a certain nomatter how I'm feeling, it's
telling me something, but thereare distinctions in terms of
what it's telling me. So forexample, if I'm nervous or
anxious, there's a certain sortof feeling that comes with that.

(11:01):
And so I notice, and then I act,or I ask, I ask myself, okay, so
what is this telling me in termsof what I should do? Why do I
feel this way? So in terms ofwhat I was referring to earlier,
there's a feeling ofcompleteness, a feeling of

(11:24):
wholeness, once again, a feelingthat I'm I've arrived at a
decision, this is where I'msupposed to be, because a
feeling may be telling me, moveforward. Oh yes, this is the
time. And there's this feelingof, you know, sort of one issue,
and I've talked a lot about thisin terms of that feeling of

(11:45):
alpha, some people were regardedas as do I, in terms of
spirituality that I'm I amgetting a call to move in a
certain direction. And so when Iget that feeling or that
sensation, it tends to just sortof move through me in a certain

(12:06):
way. I I feel like I canbreathe, I feel a lightness, I
feel sunshine, air. It's justthat sort of feeling of
completeness. And so that's sortof the I don't know if it's a
process, it's more of a state ofbeing, but I listen to that
feeling. And when I'm inconversation, you know, for

(12:30):
example, a coachingconversation, or I'm just with
someone, it helps me to reallybe with that person, and it
allows me to quiet the voicesand the noise, these things
that, as you say, can beinterruptions or interference,
and there's a quietness, there'sa place of, I see you, I am

(12:56):
here, that feeling of Ubuntu,where that you're fully present.
And sometimes when you're in aspace like that, um, the lines
between you and that personbecome blurred. You know, it's
the deepest form of empathy forme, where you feel pain, I feel
pain. You feel joy. I feel joy,and I can really be with a

(13:24):
person, and beautiful thingshappen, not just for the person
that I'm with, but for me, and Iappreciate that so much.

Lynn (13:35):
That's a give and a take in a way, right? It's, it's not
one sided. And you use the wordUbuntu. Explain that word a
little bit, for those who mightnot know what that word means,

Carolyn (13:48):
well, listen an African saying or way of being. I see
you. I am here. It's almost likea call out when I read the
description in one reference, itwas as if, you know, the
Africans moving through the bushand they could hear someone

(14:09):
coming. They would call out, youknow, I see you, and the other
person would say, I am here. Butis this a form of connectedness,
acknowledgement? Respect forhumanity. Um, yeah, it's just, I
think it's just a beautiful wayof just being present.

Lynn (14:35):
I see you. Is such a powerful acknowledgement. And
I've, I've done this, I walk innature a lot, and sometimes I
say that to plants. Every nowand then I'll see a little leaf
waving, and it almost feels likeit couldn't possibly be from the
wind, and it makes me feel likeor a butterfly goes by, or maybe

(14:57):
just a little squirrel, but Ilove to go I see you. And, you
know, and just notice them asI'm going. And what you said, I
think, is the most importantpart is, yes, it might do
something for the squirrel orthe butterfly, who knows, but
it's more about what it did forme, the little feeling. You use

(15:19):
the word completeness of of thatlittle feeling of just, it's
just a good little feeling,

Carolyn (15:27):
yeah, and you know what I hear when you say that, or
what I feel when you say that?
Is that acknowledgement, whereyou have this space of this is
about me, you can be aboutyourself and still be with
another person. And I say thatto mean that, what can I gain?

(15:47):
What is present in this momentthat allows me to be with a
person to kind of meet the needlisten, if that need is to just
listen. You know, sometimespeople don't need an answer.
They just want to talk. In thatability to listen that I gain
something, patience, humility,deference to the other person.

(16:12):
So it's always about, what can Ilearn? What can I gain? And this
process, and in doing or inbeing, you know, with another
person, you know, I always win.
I always gain. And the greatestgift for me will be that the

(16:34):
other person did as well, youknow, because that's my
intention, is to be with aperson and not have that time
wasted. You know, I mean, leavesomething in that person with
the hope that they will leavesomething in me,

Lynn (16:54):
as I as I'm listening, I'm I'm reflecting on the career
had, and now you're running yourown coaching firm, but for many
of the years that we've knowneach other, you were involved in
nursing leadership, and attimes, had 1000s of people
reporting to

Carolyn (17:13):
you. Yes,

Lynn (17:17):
I'm reflecting on how this was how you approached your
leadership practice, and Ialways wondered how you had time
and you didn't always, none ofus ever do, but how you had the
time and the mindset to welcomepeople into some pretty darn
difficult conversations, but inthis way, So could you say a

(17:41):
little bit about how you blendedthat in that environment? Yes.

Carolyn (17:47):
And I want to begin with saying that you were a
great part of that development,you know, great part of that
journey. You know, we met whenyou decided to take me on, you
know as your client, with myfirst Chief Nursing executive

(18:08):
position, and you also helped meto understand this, this gift as
a gift and not a burden, becausein my role, I was often called
upon to do difficult things,have difficult conversations. My
whole career was really beingcalled into situations that

(18:29):
needed a remedy, needed asolution, needed fixing. And so
because I was called and was notseeking these positions. It was
It wasn't so much about thetitle or the position or the
authority. It was about what canI do? Why am I here? So it was

(18:55):
always about the other person.
It was always about theorganization, its mission, his
vision, his promise to thecommunity. So when I went into
work, I didn't show up formyself. I showed up for others.
I showed up for what I valued,for what I had to give. And so
in operating or leading in thatspace, I was compelled to help.

(19:19):
And I would tell my people, Iwould say, Hey, I'm here to help
you. I'm going to help you inyour journey to you, know, reach
your potential, fulfill yourdreams. I'm here to support you.
I'm also here to help you choosea different path, which means
you may not be in the rightorganization, or you may not be

(19:42):
in the right seat in theorganization. And so they were
clear that this helping wouldnot always be a joyful
interaction, so sometimes itmeant they're going to be
difficult conversations. Um. Um,because that was my obligation,
and so, and they knew that. Andso if you were like, kind of

(20:05):
like straying from the path, ifyou will, then there had to be a
conversation which includedquestions, you know, help me
understand. So, what's gettingin your way from you following
the rules or interacting with,you know, your co workers or
your subordinates, even, becauseI was a leader of leaders, you

(20:25):
know, more effectively. So thosewere the conversations that took
place, and I had a lot of angst.
You know, initially, I stillhave angst about having this
conversation, by the way, yeah,I know you do. I mean, I
couldn't sleep. I'd be up allnight, you know, it's like, oh,

(20:47):
I don't want to talk to thisperson. I have to talk to this
person because, you know, and itat my heart, you know, I want
to, I don't want anyone to, youknow, feel like they're making a
mistake, or that they're notenough, or they're that they're
not good enough. Um, and so itwas from that space to, you

(21:10):
know, not cause harm, um, that Ihad this anxiety, but at the
same time, I knew that nothaving the conversation would
cause harm. It would not benefitthat person, it wouldn't benefit
the organization, it wouldn'tbenefit the people that we were
charged to serve. And so, youknow, from that space of being

(21:35):
supportive and helping, I wasable to have those
conversations, but have it in away that was respectful, that
was empathetic, that wastruthful and not to beat around
the bush. You know, I've sharedthis with you before that I see
myself as a fellow traveler, andso I believe that, you know,

(22:00):
while I can't walk your road orwalk anyone else's road, I can
be there to support you. I canwalk alongside you, I can hold
your hand. I can be a shoulderto lean on a listening ear. And
so this is what I offer, becauseon any journey you need, you

(22:20):
need tools, or you need certainelements or pieces and parts to
get to where you need to go. Andso that is my offering. And so
if you're traveling and you havea flat tire, but you've got a
tank full of gas, why would Ioffer you gas? I offer you what

(22:41):
you need. And so in that space,and with that intention, um, it
made it easier for me to havethose difficult conversations.

Lynn (22:52):
Well, you had you debt. We talked through so many of those
conversations. And and there wasa, I don't know if I would call
it a moment, but I havewitnessed dramatic shifts in you
over these last many years towhere you sort of went from,
okay, I will carry this burdento this is a gift. And in the in

(23:19):
the way I see things, Isometimes talk about the world
having there being sort of twoworlds. I've often used the
analogy of fish that don't knowthey're in water, and dolphins,
who do. And you know, fish, ifthey broke through the surface
of the water, would go, Oh, myGod, there's a whole new world
here. I didn't even know thisworld existed. You know, whereas

(23:43):
a dolphin can kind of walk intwo worlds, the underwater world
and the world of of the air,they know, because they need the
air from this, this, if you werewill, World of the, you know,
with air and somewhere, to me,it just seems like you went
from, see, you know, reallybeing it's almost like you

(24:05):
always knew there were twoworlds, but you broke through to
experience the other world. If Icould make put it that way, I
don't know if that makes senseto you, but do you recall what
or how that happened, or when,or

Carolyn (24:19):
Yes, and I think what really, you know, kind of pushed
me into that knowledge,understanding, acceptance, was
my need to live a purpose drivenlife. You know, I really want to

(24:39):
be that person that takes thegifts that have been given to me
and to utilize them fully and toleave nothing in the tank. So
when I come to the end of thiswork that I'm doing, or if I
come to the end of my life, Iwant to be able to look back.

(24:59):
And say, Hey, I gave everythingthat I had to give. You know, I
said what I needed to say. I didwhat I needed to do. I did my
work. You know, my personal workto be better, to to be more
effective, to communicate in away that mattered, to be with
people. So when I came to thatunderstanding, that knowledge,

(25:24):
that awakening, if you will, itmade it easier for me to see
this as my work, not as myburden. Because, you know how
much of a burden it was for me.
I mean, it was that sort of headbowed, you know, like I'm
walking against the wind on anuphill climb with a 50 pound

(25:44):
sack on my back. Yeah, it was,it was heavy for me, and I did
it. You know, I would climb thathill, I would do that work, I
would have that conversation,but I saw it more as a burden.
And now I don't, I can't saythat. I don't ever feel some
heaviness, but I also feel likeI do this work now with joy, and

(26:07):
not with so much of thatanxiety, or, you know, sorrow.
Or why do I have to do this. Ithink I use that word a lot,
man, I have to. Why do I alwayshave to do? Why do I always have
to do the hard things? And Ihave more of a mindset, I get to

(26:28):
do these things. You know? It'sa it's a gift, it's an
opportunity to make adifference, to lighten someone
else's load.

Lynn (26:42):
Were you? You, you also, earlier alluded to something
about in doing the work I get toand that's been a critical
distinction that you and I'velearned together over these
years, which is recognizing howoutcome driven our education

(27:02):
system usually makes all of usyou've got to pass. Once you
pass the test, once you finishthe grade, once you get the
letters behind your name, onceyou fill in the blank,
everything will be fine. Andeverything leading to those ends
is just interference. And bothof us have in the last years

(27:24):
made this shift to say thosethings are just the reason for
the journey. The real joy is inthe steps leading to those
things.

Carolyn (27:34):
Yes, and I see, when you were, you know, I'm talking
I the two words that popped inmy mind was knowledge and
wisdom, you know? So there's adifference between the two. And
so it's that in the doingwhatever that thing is, in
having the conversation, indoing the self work, it's the

(27:56):
process itself that gets youthere. It's not necessarily the
distinct steps themselves. Youknow, we have a checklist. It's
not the words that you see onthe paper. It's in the process
of having the conversation. Youknow, you have to do something,
you have to have theconversation. That's the thing

(28:18):
on the list, but it's in doing.
It's that in having theconversation and paying
attention to how you feel,paying attention to the other
person in the room, what arethey telling you without even
saying a word. You know, indoing, we learn to listen, not
only with our ears, but with ourheart, you know, with our

(28:41):
senses, you know, people holdtheir bodies a certain way,
depending on how they're feelinginside, their facial
expressions, their gestures, howthey move their hands, you know,
are they, you know, theirdirectionality? Are they, you
know, looking up, looking down.
Are they, you know, kind of turnto the side. All of those things

(29:04):
give us information. So it's indoing. It's in the struggle. You
know, when we're going throughthe fire, we're going through
hard times and the difficulty,the difficulty sets the context,
whatever the issue is thatyou're enduring, but it's in
going forward, in spite of thishard time. It's the choices that

(29:30):
we make, in spite of thedifficulty, the choices that we
make, not just for the day thatwe're in, or the moment that
we're in, but for the future.
Yeah, that we want to have theinvisible thing that we know we
want to reach, but we can't. Wecan't see it, we can't hold it,

(29:52):
we can't touch it today, but weknow that's where we want to go.
So it's in the doing. It's justlike. I'm kind of going back
this to the many conversationsthat we had where there was
conflict that I had to have hardconversations with. It could be
a peer, it could be asupervisor, it could be a
subordinate. Didn't matter whoit was, it was just that it was

(30:13):
it existed. Something needed tochange, and then in the doing, I
had to understand, why am Iafraid? Why am I hesitant?
What's my intention? What do Iwant? How do I want this person,
not necessarily to feel aboutthe conversation, because I

(30:40):
can't control their feelings.
But what do I want this personto know? I want it to be clear
at the end of the conversation,who I am, what I stand for, what
do I need from you? What am Iwilling to give? What am I
willing to accept? You know,it's there's all these pieces

(31:06):
and parts. So it's in doingthese things that I move from
knowledge to wisdom, that I movefrom not knowing to knowing. And
it's in doing that I can speakthe unspeakable,
speak the unspoken, and see theunseen. So this is what the this

(31:35):
is whatthe in the doing has done for
me, and particularly speak theunspoken,
because there are a lot ofthings that I held back on, you
know, I couldn't say, I didn'twant to say, and there were
things that needed to be said.
And in speaking the unspoken,the in in the in the process of

(31:58):
having conversations and payingattention to the other person
more fully and deeply and beingpresent, there are things that
are unknown that become known.
And you can say things, you canask questions, and then the
other person will say, How didyou know

(32:22):
that's what I was thinking. Icouldn't say it. And so that's
what that whole businessof doing your work can bring
forth. And then it moves it froma checklist to a task. Um to a
thing that you can see and do,um to something that is so much

(32:47):
more.
And that's where I want to beall the time. If I could

Lynn (33:02):
so well, I have so many questions about what you said,
but one of them is when you havea moment where you have spoken
the unspoken and and in a way,it's almost like it sounds like
you say you're not using thislanguage, but it almost clears
the air what happens to you andto the setting the conversation

(33:30):
to the other person, whensomething that was unspoken,
that needed to be said getssaid.

Carolyn (33:36):
In that moment, there is a feeling of, yes, we are
arriving.
Things are unfolding. There isdiscovery. There is awakening.

(33:57):
Um, there is a weights arelifted. You know, we all have
certain ways that we feel whenwe know that we're here right
where we're supposed to be. So Ihave that sensation I you know,
nature is important to me. Sothere's this feeling I can

(34:18):
breathe. You know, there's noconstriction. It's like there's
freedom, you know, like thechains have fallen off, and
that's how I feel. And for theother person, I can see the
shift. There's like the theirface, the countenance changes.
There's this feeling oflightness, of joy, of burdens

(34:42):
lifted, and then I hear it,because they tell me that that
is so, yeah, I feel so muchbetter. I feel like I can move
forward. And it's not fromanything that I've done, because
I'm just the coach and theguide. They find the solution.
Within themselves, and so thatis the thing that they can take

(35:05):
with them, because it's alreadythere. They're just what they
weren't conscious of it, but nowthey are. Now they have a
knowing that they didn't havepreviously.

Lynn (35:17):
See that's really empowering, because I have these
conversations a lot. I workwith, you know, I ski a lot,
with Austin able, who people andwe talk about this. In fact, he
was looking for a better wordthan coach or teacher, even,
because he says, I don't want togive you anything other than

(35:39):
what you already have. I justwant you to see what you have.
And that's what I heard you say,and that's as you know what I
like when I'm at my best. That'sthe kind of coaching I do, which
is really to help you seethrough the noise to what's
always been there. And yes, youknow it's, it's a pretty strong

(36:01):
principle of the humanexperience. I think we all have
more than we know we have, butit gets covered up. You know,
sometimes in the way we weretaught to parrot answers rather
than solve problems andstruggle, right?

Carolyn (36:19):
Yes, and you remind me of one of my coaches, Alexander
love is that when you come tothe answer, you realize that you
are already there, that you areyou are enough, that it was just
this ability to to see yourself,you know, in a different way, in

(36:44):
a more holistic way, that getsyou there. And I think that's so
important, because we do, youknow, suffer often with
inadequacy, that someone knowsit better. They can do it
better, but getting to reallyknow who you are, what you're
about, for what you have tooffer. All of these things are

(37:05):
so important and that the mostimportant conversations, as
someone wisely said, will bewith yourself.

Lynn (37:16):
So true. I have a I have a practical story about this in my
own life just recently, becauseI just put out my audible book,
and I got stuck this summer ininadequacy, because for the
silliest reason, when I look atit from this side of the
conversation, but it felt realwhen I was on the other side of

(37:37):
it, the conversation withmyself, that Is, which was okay,
I should be able to take thesefiles that I've already read the
book and edit out the bad partsand put in a replacement
sentence, or just take out astumble or whatever, and and
there were two problems tosolve. One was to make those

(37:59):
edits, and the other was to thenhave the audio files meet the
standards of the software youput the audio books on. They
have standards for I don't evenknow how the standards work, but
somehow I thought I could dothat. And and for three weeks, I
actively did not work on my bookbecause I was stuck in at

(38:23):
inadequacy. Why can't I figurethis out? I looked at AI, I
looked at software, I looked at,you know, and I was, I was doing
all of these things in sort ofwhat I would say, was a not very
enlightened way. And then itdawned on me, as I had this, I
was like, what is making this sohard? Is, wait a minute, Lynn,
you're expecting yourself to bean audio engineer. There's a job

(38:45):
for this. Yes, did. You didn'teven think twice when you did
your paper book to get an editorto tell you how to fix, you
know, where the sentence need tobe restructured, or, you know,
proofing and all of that, andyou hired a separate person to
format the book, because justright, like, yes, Lynn, you

(39:07):
could have self edited. And yes,Lynn, you could have self
formatted, but it wouldn't havebeen as good. And so then I
realized, oh, go find an audioad engineer, which I did,
fabulous person to help me for.
Then the next three weeksworking with him, and he told me
where to, like rerecord, and hetold me, and he put the
sentences in, and it was justbeautifully done, but it all the

(39:30):
everything you just said wasfrom me having a conversation
with myself of inadequacy, andrather than stepping away and
seeing where I I was the onlyone who could do the voice, but
I didn't need to learn to be anaudio engineer to make this
work, right.

Carolyn (39:54):
And you know, you and I have such a rich history, and so
coming full circle in terms of.
You know, where we started inthe work that we've done
together. Bruce Anderson comesto mind with nature's view that
he's done with the horses.
Because we're talking about, youknow, that alpha and that tyrant
mindset. But we're, we'retalking about the past and

(40:18):
letting the past not be a slavemaster, but context reference.
So what do we know and how canwe apply it in this situation to
help us to get to a solution? Soalways having these
conversations around whatoptions, what choices do I have

(40:39):
so that I can move forward in away that you know benefits me or
benefits others. So I love whatyou just shared.

Lynn (40:47):
Well, he he uses that exact distinction, let the past
inform, not interfere. Yes, inthat case, even, even with all
the work I've done, the pastcould still interfere. And that,
I think, is actually the beautyof the journey, because there's
always another layer to to sortof break through. And for a long

(41:11):
time, obvious, I will say, priorto working with Bruce, I just
kind of kept circling the samething. And it wasn't until I he
made that distinction, in a way,physically and with the body.
You know, Lord calls thislanguage the negative positive
pole. That feeling of balancingyour poles is like what you talk

(41:32):
about arriving. It's like whenyou're when everything settles
down, the agitation, themolecules moving, sort of
settle, as opposed to it. It's,it's something's off, and I can
feel that agitation. And now Ineed to know what, let it tell
me what to do. And, you know,finally, I had a way of
progressing where I had, in alot of ways, been stuck, you

(41:57):
know, in the same pattern wheremy past kept interfering, right?

Carolyn (42:02):
And so you, you use the word progressing, and that's,
that's what this is all aboutprogress, not perfection. And so
that's really a big part of thiswork. I'm seeing things on a
continual, you know, we'reheading towards something. And
this continuum doesn't have anendpoint, if you will. So we're

(42:26):
always moving in a direction.
And as you said, you know,because we're looking for
progress and not perfection, itdoesn't mean that we always get
it right. It doesn't mean thatthe past doesn't interfere. But
as we do our work, our selfwork, and as we support others
in theirs, you know you gainskills and tools along the way,
so that you learn how to pause.

(42:52):
You know you pay attention tohow you're feeling, how you're
thinking, and you ask questions,and you also understand that you
have choices. And I think that'sthe power of this work. The
power of this life is it's notalways yes or no, either or

(43:12):
both, and is an option. Twothings can exist at one time and
benefit you. And I thinksometimes we forget that, but I
think this is, this is the workthat we do. This is the work
that we live. And it doesn'tmatter who we're with. It can be
a leader, it can be a neighbor,it can be any individual that

(43:35):
you have the the fortune tocross paths with is that this is
the life that we're living interms of always choosing things
are always unfolding. As one ofmy my coaches, another coach,
Veronica, love, who I've done alot of work with, with the

(43:56):
somatic coaching learning spaceis that the answer is already
there. It's already in thefield, whatever we need for
ourselves or for the people thatwe're working with. It's there.
It's a matter of having thatconversation, asking those

(44:16):
questions, being fully present,you know, just being an empty
cup. You know, we're we're nothere to provide solutions and
the answers, but we're here tohave something poured into us,
which allows us to poursomething into others. And

(44:38):
that's almost a beautiful spaceto be in.

Lynn (44:42):
What have you found helps you the most be present?

Carolyn (44:49):
What think what helps me the most is, is to is my
intention with being someone?
Sometimes you have prep forthat. You know you have a
client. That you're going towork with. And so you kind of
get ready put yourself in aspace of openness and
reflection. Sometimes you don'tit might be like in the moment,

(45:09):
but really just taking a deepbreath and getting grounded
doesn't take long to get there.
But really looking at thatperson, not just what I can see
physically, but what I can feel,and to have the respect to honor

(45:32):
the humanity of that personwho's sitting or standing in
front of me, to listen to giveof myself to that person if
that's what they need in thatmoment. Um, can I do that? Can I
be that person that they need tobe right now in this present

(45:53):
moment? And am I there all thetime? No, that. Am I walking the
path to get there.

Lynn (46:02):
Absolutely Have you ever when you're in that setting and
as you're sitting with someone,I'm asking this question because
this has happened to me, by theway, seeing something that
caused you to want to judgethem, and been able to overcome

(46:25):
that, that desire to judge inother words, let's, I'm, I'm
going to just make something up,because I can't think of any
specific time. But where I seesomebody, perhaps I think
they're being super selfish orsomething. So as I'm seeing them
in their humanity, what I'mseeing is therefore, or what I
call their flaws, which then Istruggle, sometimes, not all the

(46:48):
time, with wanting to judgethem. Do you ever have that
happen for you? And if so, howdo you how do you get past that?
I have some tricks for myself,but I'm curious how you do it.

Carolyn (47:00):
Yes, that happens to me, you know, more often than I
would like. And when I have thatthought, I notice it, and I've
learned to set it aside. And howI set it aside is really saying,

(47:20):
you know, that's you, you know,have I ever been judgmental?
Have I have I ever been selfish?
Have I ever been whatever I seein that other person? I see it
in me, I I'm learning to havegrace for myself and for others.
And the other thing that comesto mind too, is what will serve

(47:40):
and me, that judgment will notserve. It doesn't serve me. It
doesn't serve the person thatI'm with. And once again, it
comes back to purpose. Why am Ihere? Am I here to judge, or am
I here to notice, alsounderstanding, and this is the

(48:01):
big piece too, is I know a lot,but I don't know everything. I
see a lot, and I don't seeeverything. And the wise person
that brought me to thatconclusion was you. You told me
that many years ago. And so withthat wisdom, which I take with

(48:21):
me is I don't know their wholestory. I know what I know, but I
don't know everything. So ifthis person is showing up in a
way that maybe doesn't land wellwith me, I understand that there
may be some pain, there somebrokenness, and this is how they

(48:45):
cope. Doesn't make them a badperson. It doesn't make them a
good person. It just makes themwho they are in this moment, and
because I don't know theirstory, then I just take it for
what it is in the moment, anddon't assign anything to it
other than it showed up. Why itshowed up? I don't know. And if

(49:05):
the and if the moment calls forit, I can ask, I can always ask
a question. I don't have to beright. I don't have to be
brilliant. They can choose toanswer or not, but then the
assumption is tested. And I willtell you, when I test an

(49:25):
assumption, it's not always whatI thought it was. And so once
again, opportunity to learn,opportunity to grow. But yeah,
we live in judgment, and soacknowledging that we do, being
honest with ourselves about it,and then having that
conversation with ourselves. Sowhat am I going to do? You know,

(49:47):
and that's where the empathy andthe service comes in, because I
don't want to be that personthat thinks that I have a right.
Right to sit or stand injudgment of anyone. Allows me Go
ahead. No, no, listen. Thatallows me to just, you know, to

(50:10):
come to a situation or a personwith some level of wholeness for
myself.

Lynn (50:21):
Well, you what I was going to say is, because you do test
your assumptions. And, you know,we've, we probably when, when we
were talking at some point, I'vedrawn the ladder of inference on
a piece of paper for you. But Ididn't invent the ladder, but I
think it was in, I don't knowwho invented it, but it's in
Peter, sing, his FifthDiscipline field book was where

(50:42):
I usually reference it, but youso we sort of start with data,
and the start with all that isthere, we immediately miss some
of it. Like you said, I don'tknow all, or I don't see all
because I'm filtering from thevery beginning. And then we sort
of have an internal processwhere we assign meaning and make

(51:04):
assumptions, jump toconclusions, those eventually
become our beliefs. Nobody eversees all that. And then we take
our actions and all people seeis the data they see and the
actions we take and all thatinternal filtering and meaning
and assumptions and conclusionsand beliefs. None of that gets
visible to others, and that'swhere our judgments come from.

(51:26):
And if we remember to just gostarted testing those things.
And so the picture I had as youwere talking is you just keep
dropping down to the data, backto the data, back to the data.
I'm going to test theassumptions, I'm going to get
more information. I'm going toremember, and again, as we're
going in that internal process,we can't help but go, that's
right, that's wrong. That's thatperson's because judgment can be

(51:49):
both positive and negative. Wecan be judging someone very
positively, saying, oh, that'sthe way to do it. And that's
just as harmful in some ways, issaying they're stupid or wrong?

Carolyn (52:02):
Yes, it is, because what you're referring to when
you mentioned the word filter,what came to mind was my my
training with new field network.
That's where I was introduced tothis business of observer. We
filter based on the observerthat we are in the observer that
we are comes from oursocialization, our training, our

(52:22):
ancestry, all of those things.
And once we have knowledge ofand clarity about this business
of observer, then it gives us anopportunity to pause and say,
Okay, let me widen my view. Letme look at another perspective.
Let me invite anotherperspective, because I'm seeing

(52:48):
the world not necessarily theway that it is, but the way that
I am. And so when we canacknowledge that and look at it,
we can like, okay, you knowthere, there may be more. Let me
ask a question.

Lynn (53:03):
That's the other world part that I feel like hap has
happened. It's happened for mesince I've known you, and I've
certainly seen it happen foryou, is to start looking for
things that are not already inour system, and being able to
invite in is a whole new world.

Carolyn (53:26):
And what

Lynn (53:29):
I know for myself, and I have found this to be a pretty
common thread, is I had not beeninviting it in because of that
silly little sensation ofsomething being off kept me
wanting to let anything cause Ididn't want to rock my world,
even though it was basically noteven rocking my world, but it

(53:51):
felt like I might die if I letit in. You know that physical
sensation of fake I'm screwingup, I'm not enough, and once we
calibrate that sensation back tothe physical stuff you were
talking about earlier, to justmean, yeah, I'm having a little
feeling of something being off,but that doesn't mean I'm dying,

(54:13):
right then other things,

Carolyn (54:17):
yeah, and it can be your body just signaling you,
because That's what the body isdesigned to do. It could be the
past interfering and wanting youto think like you said, I'm not
enough. This is somethingnegative. But what we can do is
we can notice, we pay attentionto everything, and then we
question, we ask questions aboutwhere this is, and we're when

(54:41):
we're honest with ourselves, youknow, which is a, you know, it
might sound like an odd thing tosay, but we can talk ourselves
out of honesty, because it makesus feel better. But we can feel
when we can feel what we need tofeel. We can be honest and say,
Hey, I felt this way. I don'tlike it. That does. It make me
feel good about myself, but it'sthere, so what can I do about

(55:05):
it? Because that's not where Iwant to live. That's not where I
want to stand. I want to be ableto move away from that. And what
will it take for me to getthere? And so always noticing,
always in reflection, alwaysasking questions. It is changed
my life, and I hope that in theprocess of me changing, that

(55:31):
I've been able to support othersin their journey as well.

Lynn (55:35):
Yeah, that that distinction you said at the
beginning of it could be ourpast interfering, or it could be
our body giving us a signal. Iwas listening to Andrew Huberman
interview Alex Honnold, who isthe guy that did that movie free
solo. So he climbed a 3000 footmountain in Yosemite with no

(55:59):
ropes, and they did a movieabout it, they documented it. So
that's why they called it freesolo, because he's by himself.
He's got nobody belaying him.
He's got no rocks or pins. He isnot tied to the rock. And he
climbed it 3000 feet. So, youknow, he didn't have to get that
high off of the mountain beforewhen he falls, it's pretty
consequential. And yes,everybody, like a lot of the

(56:20):
scientists, around studying theamygdala and fear, wanted to
understand how somebody couldhave that much courage to be
able to do that, so actuallytested him, and the word got out
soon after, and I rememberhearing this that the scientist
said his amygdala didn't firehis there's something he's wired
differently than other people,because that's what that feeling

(56:41):
is that we're getting, is theamygdala is firing and just
saying, hey, you know, somebodymight be standing too close to
you, a car might be about to runover you. You know, all of the
things that can happen in life.
Your boss just gave you a stinkeye look. Whatever it might be
that creates that feeling, andwe generally jump to we're going
to die. Well, he's talking toAndrew Huberman. This just came

(57:03):
out in the last month or so. Irecommend everybody listen to
this podcast. But Huberman,who's a scientist, is asking him
about that. And Alex Honnoldsaid, oh yeah. He said, All they
did was show me pictures ofthings like black and white,
pictures of guns and things likethat. And he goes pictures never
killed anybody. And so for mostpeople, when they see those

(57:26):
pictures, their amygda firesbecause they see a gun, and even
though it's just a piece ofpaper with a picture, they go
into fear. And Arnold hascalibrated his nervous system to
know the difference between apiece of paper with a picture of
a gun and a real thing. And whatwas really interesting, he goes,

(57:49):
Yeah. He goes, if they had justthrown a snake in the room, they
would have seen my amygdalafire. I'm thinking that is the
best practical description ofthe difference you were talking
about our body gives us asignal, but sometimes we don't
know what's real, and a piece ofpaper, as he said, is never
going to kill me, but very fewpeople have calibrated their

(58:13):
nervous system to have thatlevel of discernment between
true signal and noise andinterference from our past.

Carolyn (58:22):
I agree with you, and that also surfaces a thought
around hope, because when youcan understand that things can
change. You know, when you talkabout recalibrating your brain,
we can do that. It takes work,but what we're doing is we're
forming. I'm not a scientist,but, you know, new pathways in

(58:45):
our brain that moves us out ofthe ones that we were in that
allows us to think and feeldifferently. So, you know,
sometimes when I'm opening uplike a learning session, I'm
doing some leadershipdevelopment. You know, I like to
check in with my people, andsometimes I'll ask them, you
know, tell me how you're feelingright now, just one word. Or

(59:08):
I'll ask them for a number. Youknow, how are you feeling on a
scale from one to 10, with 10being everything's all right in
the world, to one being. I wishI weren't here today. And you
know, I invite them to betruthful. You know, if you're a
one, be a one. If your word fortoday is, I'm anxious, be
anxious, because we can handleit. You know, we're in a safe
space. But the beauty of whathas surfaced out of those

(59:32):
questions is, if someone saysthere are three, you know, I'll
ask them, you know, have youever been a 10? And they say,
Yeah, I've been a 10. I said,Well, you can get there again.
You may not be a 10 right now,you're feeling like you're
three, but you know what a 10feels like, and what did it take

(59:54):
to get to the 10? Whatexperience put you at a 10? So
once again. Again, anopportunity to move forward so
we can we can change. There'shope that where I am right now,
if it's not where I want to be,I don't have to stay here
forever. There are things that Ican do, there are choices, there

(01:00:15):
are skills, there are thingsthat I can learn, and for me,
that matters most.

Lynn (01:00:24):
I could not agree more.
And back to that story. What Iloved, as he was describing is
he said that climb was not themost dangerous thing I've ever
done. Wow. He said I have donemuch more dangerous things when
I was attached and I'll takechances, and so forth and so
what he was reflecting on is youcan change and learn like I

(01:00:48):
learned that route many times. Idon't even know how many times
he climbed that route before heclimbed it with no rope, but by
the time he climbed it, he knewit, hands down. He didn't have
any question about his moves.
You know, he knew he was goingto make move because he had

(01:01:12):
calibrated and worked throughit. And that feeling of being
stuck the the weird part, likeif you're at a three, which I
was this summer, as I said withthis book, was that when you're
at that low point, finding theenergy to get yourself to take
the steps to move you up thatscale, is so difficult, and this

(01:01:35):
is where sometimes having acoach or somebody else that can
be a little bit of a catalystcan help. But also, just as you
said, the remembering, if youcan just remember you've been

Carolyn (01:01:47):
right, yeah, it's not, it's not an impossibility. You
know, you've been there beforeyou can get there again, and
you're right too about thesupport. And that's where being
that fellow traveler, or thatguide is so important, because
sometimes we need reminding,sometimes we need that question
that will take us to truth.
Because a lot of times whenwe're having conversations or

(01:02:10):
we're saying things aboutourselves, Is it, is this really
the truth? And that goes back tothe data and what's in front of
you, and you know, beingreminded that, oh, you know, you
didn't just get to this space bychance. There was a lot of hard
work, there was sacrifice, therewas doing, you know, you took
courses, you went throughprograms, you had conversations,

(01:02:32):
you know, you did the work. Andjust being reminded of what is
true, what is the reality, youknow, can be helpful and can be
supportive. And one thing thatyou said that was that was so
important was he wasn'toperating from 00, you know, he
he had information, he hadknowledge, he had experience, he

(01:02:55):
had history. And we have thosethings. You know, they're
different for different people,but we have those things. And so
what can we do with what weknow? What can we do with what
we already have? And this iswhat coaching can do for for
others, is to raise theconsciousness, the raise the

(01:03:18):
knowing of what's already thereto support you in moving
forward.

Lynn (01:03:26):
So Carolyn, that brings me to a question, because I run
into this a lot with myself andwith my clients. I most people
that know me have realized thatI'm experiment number one for
everything I'm teachingcoaching. You know it doesn't
work for me. I don't think it'sgoing to work for you, but you
talked about focusing on what wehave, and it is so common to

(01:03:49):
focus on what we wish we had oror don't have, which gets
people, I've noticed, intonegative self talk. They say
things to themselves that theywould never say to someone else,
and they beat themselves up, andthey sort of see only
limitations. How have you foundit to what is the most effective

(01:04:10):
ways you've helped people sortof shift that negative self talk
into something that's moreproductive?

Carolyn (01:04:18):
Well, one of the things that I've done, and and this is,
you know, particularly workingwith leaders at any level. Can
you can be a C suite or manager.
Doesn't matter is that, youknow, we're often challenged in
this world with difficulty with,you know, obstacles in the road.
And so I noticed that they werespending a lot of time talking

(01:04:43):
about what they couldn't do, andthe more they talked about what
they couldn't do, the morefrustrated they became, and the
more anxious they became. So Iasked the question, what can you
do? What can. Can you do? Andwhen you get them thinking in
that direction, it was amazingthat they started thinking

(01:05:06):
about, Oh, I didn't think aboutit like that. And then they
started listing, well, I can dothis, I can do that, I can do.
And the list goes on and on. Andwhen they started focusing on
what they could do, what waswithin their control to do, what
was within their power to do.

(01:05:26):
Then it shifted their thinking,and they became less consumed
with a can't list, therestriction list, the we don't
have enough list. I am notenough list, and they move
towards something that waspositive, that was actionable,

(01:05:47):
that was achievable. And so thatis something that I found that
works well for myself. You know,I works for me. Maybe it'll work
for someone else, but just tokind of shift them in a
different mindset, because weoften get bogged down in
impossibility, and there's solittle that we have control
over, you know, so why spend somuch time there? Why not spend

(01:06:11):
more time in what's possible?
What can I do? What can I doright now? What can I do
tomorrow and be okay with it?
You know? The other thing that Ilearned, and I'm pretty sure
this was from you as well, isdoing what needs to be done and
not be attached to the outcome,you know, and and I'm learning

(01:06:33):
to look at everything as giftand opportunity. If things
didn't go well, okay, what couldI do differently, you know? How
can I be better prepared? Whatdifferent actions can I take and
just learn from it and moveforward? I'm human, not going to
get it right all the time, andthe gift is that I learned
something, or the gift could bethat you did get it right, but

(01:06:55):
to not think fake, you know,which I learned from rules? Oh,
yeah, yeah, and so, so not thinkmistake and just think
opportunity. You know, thinkgift. Because one thing that we

(01:07:15):
don't always pay attention to issometimes we make a mistake, we
do something that didn't gowell, but the consequences were
not that great. No one washarmed. You know, nothing.
Production wasn't stopped. Butif we look at that, if we don't
beat ourselves up and we say,okay, what can I learn from

(01:07:36):
this? I can correct that thataction, so that when it does
matter more I'm in good shape.
Because sometimes these thingsnot sometimes I think always,
that nothing is lost, that Imade this mistake right here and
right now, so that when I get 15steps into the process, I don't

(01:07:56):
make it where the consequencesare going to be grave. And so
just having that, you know, thatmindset, what can I do? You
know, how can I be different?
How can I show up for myself ina good way?

Lynn (01:08:14):
What can you do is a great pocket question. You know, when
I'm stuck in I can't having as apocket question. Well, what can
I do? Is a is a really great wayto switch that energy.

Carolyn (01:08:27):
Yeah, and it works. It works for me. Works for others.
I've seen it work for others. Ithink

Lynn (01:08:34):
that's what shifted me this summer with the book, was,
you know, recognizing okay, I'mnot gonna like, I had a I had a
little sit down with myself andsaid, All right, are you really
gonna learn this? Is learn this?
Is this really something youwant to learn? Like, do you want
to become an audio engineer? Doyou want to learn this software?
Which I was, I was havingtrouble just making the file,
getting the file into thesystem, much less doing anything
with it. And I startedrealizing, well, if I wanted to,

(01:08:57):
I could come up that learningcurve, but I'm not going to, and
it's the same kind of advice Igive people that are starting
their own business in theiraccounting. You know, some
people are like, Oh, I've gottado my own bookkeeping. And I'm
like, No, you don't that's awhole learning curve to come. I
do my own because I've alreadycome up that learning curve. I
used to be a CPA, so for me tokeep my own book, there's no

(01:09:19):
learning curve. For me. It'sreally simple, but, but for
someone who hasn't done it, whywould you become an accountant
so that you could be inbusiness? That's what
accountants are

Carolyn (01:09:33):
for, right? And what you're saying to me is, is the
question, how do you want tospend your time, correct? You
know, right? I mean, do you wantto spend your time in your
purpose, the thing that's goingto matter most, the thing that
will allow you to give the most,or do you want to spend it on
these things that you know, 100years from now, no one's going

(01:09:55):
to care? You know, it'ssomething that someone else can
do. It's not the best use ofyour answer. Energy to to do
some of these things that we do,and we fill our day up with and
at the end of the day, you know,did we live in purpose? You
know, do we make a difference?
Did we have a discovery? Did wehelp someone in their discovery,

(01:10:18):
and to me that, you know that'simportant, you know, how I spend
my time? Because we got a timestamp, we have an expiration
date, and we don't get do overs,right? I can't, I can't bring
tomorrow back. So, yeah, how canI spend this day, this moment,

(01:10:41):
in a meaningful way that keepsme moving more and more in
purpose?

Lynn (01:10:53):
You used a word that I look I'm seeing a I don't know
if it's a dichotomy, but adistinction between living in
purpose and controlling things.
And you said you really don'thave that much control. Could
you say more about how you havelearned to live in purpose when
you have so little control? Aswe all have so little control,

(01:11:16):
what we have we often times, isan illusion.

Carolyn (01:11:22):
I think the context for that a comment was really around
being being with other people,and how I interact with other
people. You know, for me, thatcontrol piece comes in wanting
people to show up the way that Iwould show up in this situation,

(01:11:44):
or how I would do something andso. So for me, it's really
letting people be who they are.
You know, I have my own life. Ihave my own journey to live the
way I do things. Someone elsemay not do things that way, the
way other people do things. Thatmay not work for me, but how can
I just let people be who theyare, be okay with it, you know,

(01:12:07):
if they want to do something acertain way or they like a
certain thing, that's reallynone of my business. You know,
at the end of the day, that'snot the business I'm supposed to
be in. And so if I can acceptpeople for who they are, how
they want to do, how they wantto be, that gives me a lot of
freedom, and it gives me peacewhere I don't have to try to

(01:12:29):
solve every problem. Everyproblem is not my problem to
solve, and that we see as anissue, other people are okay
with it. They Oh, no, I'm goodwith this. But it goes back to
why, how I see things, theobserver that I am, and how I
want to shape things to fit howI see the world. So a lot of

(01:12:50):
that is just, you know, reallybeing with people. And it goes
back to what we were talkingabout earlier, this business of
Judgment, when I just let peoplebe who they are, you know,
because they're on their ownjourney, and in doing whatever
they are doing, maybe that getsthem to their destination, the

(01:13:11):
destination that they want toget to. So that's probably the
big thing about the controlpiece, you know, I can't live
someone else's life, think theirthoughts, you know, be their
hands and feet, and so just letthem be, you know, and then I

(01:13:31):
can be in better relationshipwith people, regardless if it's
family, friends, people I justmet, people that I work with,
because we all that's the onething that we can do. We can
choose how we want to be andleave sometimes we have to leave

(01:13:52):
the rest of it alone.

Lynn (01:13:56):
It's so it can be so hard to do, especially I find it the
most difficult when I feel likesomebody else is perhaps causing
harm or could get hurt, or, youknow, something like that. And
there was a time when my desireto control those things I had a
very long reach. I would, Iwould try to interfere with
people that truly was none of mybusiness, but, but I have found

(01:14:20):
that it is so much better justto like they are setting up the
consequences for themselves. Nowit's very different, though,
when it's affecting me, right?
And this is where it's a veryinteresting distinction, and I'm
remembering, and I don't know ifyou even remember this, but I
remember you were veryeffective. I can even remember
where I was in the car drivingwhen you told me a story about

(01:14:42):
when you were working somebodybarging into your office to read
you the riot act. And Itypically remember you, I'm
going to, I'm going to give asummary, and then you can tell
whatever part of the story youwant. But he i. You were willing
to hear him out, but not withhim barging in, and you made

(01:15:03):
that distinction very clearly tothe person that barged into your
office. And so to me, that isthe kind of thing I think a lot
of people grasp, is, how do Ilet other people be without
becoming a doormat.

Carolyn (01:15:23):
Yes, I do remember that conversation that we had, and,
you know, I think was it wasimportant, you know, in that
moment is when you talk aboutthe harm piece. You know,
there's two pieces to that. Soone is if you're involved, the
other is, if you're not, but youwant to offer something, you're

(01:15:44):
not telling them what, what theyhave to do, or need to do or
should do, but you can say, Ihave a concern about what could
happen, but you leave it there.
But for yourself when, when youhave this situation where you
can be harmed, it's aboutsetting up boundaries. You know,
we often think that boundariesare ultimatums, and if you don't
do such and such, then I'm notgoing to do such and such.

(01:16:08):
That's an ultimatum. But aboundary that you set is, you
know, they can do what theychoose to do. You choose not to
participate. You know, I can'tbe a part of this, and I'm
pretty sure I learned that fromyou as well, you know, in terms
of the whole boundaries piece.
Because, once again, that'swhere that control piece comes

(01:16:30):
in. If you don't do such andsuch, you know, then I'm
leaving. Okay, so your behaviorcan't always be contingent upon
what someone else does? You'represented with a situation, you
make the decision for yourself,do I want to be a part of it or
not? And you can let the personknow that you choose not to

(01:16:50):
participate. This doesn't lineup with what's important to me.
Doesn't line up with my values.
And so that's where thedistinction comes in, because
you do have to protect yourselfin that way, because other
people may choose not to. So youhave to let them know that, that
that's your way of showing up.

(01:17:11):
That doesn't work for me. I'mhappy to have a conversation
with you, but not under thesecircumstances. And then that's
that's it.

Lynn (01:17:19):
That was super powerful, because, you know, for someone,
and they're going to be peoplelistening that have had this
happen, you know, this is afairly common occurrence in a
lot of office settings, fordifferent people are working
together, and somebody makes adecision they don't like, or
whatever, and they walk intothat person's office and go into
what we would call berating or arant or something like that. And

(01:17:43):
it's great to have a strategyfor what to do, because that'll
keep that could get you on yourheels pretty quick. And a lot of
times, that's how decisionsreally poor decisions often get
made, is because the personwho's on the receiving end of
that ends up backing down,capitulating, you know, just

(01:18:05):
because they're trying to like,they want to keep the peace,
they don't like conflict.
They're afraid of, you know,because that's kind of bullying
behavior. They're kind of afraidof the bully. So what you did
that particular day, I thoughtwas a pretty interesting move,
which was, I will have a converif I recall correctly, and you
correct me for this, we I willhave a conversation with you. Is
that exactly how that went down?

Carolyn (01:18:27):
Yeah, that's exactly, yeah, you got it right. And I
think you know the big thingabout this too, and this is why
understanding who you are, theself awareness of your your
language, your emotions, yourbody, is so important, because
in the moment, you know you'rehuman. When someone's coming at
you like that, it's difficultnot to react, but your ability

(01:18:49):
to respond is so important.
Because, first of all, and thisis very difficult, I think,
sometimes, for people to tounderstand and know his behavior
doesn't have anything to do withme that is about an important
piece, yes, about who he is, notabout

Lynn (01:19:07):
who you're not taking it personal, right?

Carolyn (01:19:11):
Don't take it personally. It's like, okay, you
know he's really cranked uphere. That has nothing to do
with me. I happen to be in theroom with him, so I can't
respond or react. Excuse me.
React to that from theperspective of, this is about
me. I can respond. From theperspective of, okay, who am I
and what is needed? What is thesituation call for right now,

(01:19:36):
you know, so that it can beproductive, so that I can, you
know, make the best choice interms of, you know what I say,
and so I set that aside. Ilearned to set that aside.
Doesn't have anything to do withme, but there's an issue that
needs to be discussed, and howcan we best have that
conversation?

Lynn (01:19:57):
Yes, and that it all starts with, um. Um, and
actually, I think the languagewe probably often used was that
language that I talk about a lotassuming positive intent. Like,
yes, you wouldn't be in there ifthere wasn't something to be
dealt with. Now, it's reallyhard to assume positive intent
when somebody's barreling intoyour office and pointing at you

(01:20:17):
and acting like you've donesomething wrong, but if you can
start with that assumption thatyou made, which is, this has
nothing to do with me, and Iwill talk to you, but not this
way. Yes, and there's, there'sa, there's an unseen thing
happening that I am continuingto unfold for myself, of how
that works, and I feel like youdo this very well, which is

(01:20:42):
being able to talk to the personthat's hiding behind the
behavior. Yes, on it's to seethat person as a person while
all hell is breaking loose infront of like they could be act,
acting in just egregious ways,and somehow being able to like

(01:21:04):
peer through that person doesthat is that, yeah,

Carolyn (01:21:10):
for me, because for over 30 years of leadership,
I've had plenty of practice, sothere's not too Many things that
I haven't seen or had to dealwith, or problems that I, you
know, had to resolve. And sowhen I'm in a situation like
that, I'm able to really lookbeyond who might be upset or,

(01:21:32):
you know, angry, and I lookbeyond that to the person that I
know. It's really the humanity,the empathy piece. And I, you
know, look to to who thatperson. I think we all want to
be good people walking on theearth. So that's the person that
I talk to. I talk to thatperson. And when I can do that,

(01:21:56):
it, you know, I've seen where itkind of visibly throws them off,
because they're not expectingthat. They're expecting me to
kind of return the favor, if youwill, to get triggered and and
become defensive. But if I canspeak to the person behind that

(01:22:17):
anger, that frustration thatgenerally, has served me well,
and I'm consistent in thatprocess. So once I I'm on that
path, I stay on that path, nomatter if they continue to
escalate. I stay right where I'mat in my thinking, in my
conversation. And it could be assimple as, how can I help you in

(01:22:37):
this situation? This is what I'mprepared to do you share that
this is what's going on. Solet's focus on on this piece.
Because what's, what's reallythe problem, I try to get to the
root of it, because, you know,what we see is not the issue,
right? So I'm going deeper. Soall you see, just, you know,

(01:22:58):
being a clinician, you know, Iknow if someone has, you know,
they're hot and they're in pain,you know, they have this fever,
you know, I can give you someTylenol, but that's treating the
symptoms. There's somethingthat's creating the fever,
something that's creating thepain, that's what I ultimately
need to get to, because if thatdoesn't get dealt with, they're

(01:23:20):
going to continue to have thesesymptoms. So it's the same thing
when you're talking withsomeone, that what you see that
emotion, and it's not always abad thing. It could be good, you
know, but whatever you're seeingis coming from something else,
something is causing thatemotion, you know, creating this
scenario. So I try to go back tothe root of the issue. So let's

(01:23:43):
what's the problem where? What'sthe problem we're trying to
solve for? Yeah, you know what?
What do we want the outcome tobe? And that it changes the it
changes the narrative.

Lynn (01:23:55):
Well, what's so tempting in that moment is to call
someone out for their behavior.
And what I feel like I've seenyou do is call people up to
their best self instead.

Carolyn (01:24:09):
Yes, I love that, and I haven't used that phrasing in a
long time, but yes, that is whatI'm trying to do, is to call
them up to who they can be, youknow, who they want to be,
because most people don't wantto be the raging, you know,

(01:24:31):
maniac that's out of control.
Um, so just calling them up, youknow, like, is this the way you
want to show up? You know, Idon't use those words, but, you
know, calling them to call themup to their better self, because
we all have, you know, the goodand the bad. But you know, how
can you, how can you show up ina way that you're proud of? And

(01:24:52):
at the end of the day, itdoesn't matter if I'm proud of
you or not you. To feel goodabout yourself, and so that's
what I'm calling you to so thatyou can feel good about
yourself. You know, I showed up?
Well, I did my best. What Ivalue showed up, because I try

(01:25:16):
to help people understand thatif you value integrity and
honesty, that's not negotiable.
So you can't say you valuehonesty, but not today, because
if I tell what I know, what Ithink or what I saw, that's
going to get me in trouble. Sowhen you respond that way, then
that's a preference. It's not avalue. You prefer to be honest,

(01:25:38):
but it just depends on thecircumstances. So these are the
types of things that you'retrying to get to when you're in
conversation with people. What'simportant to you? Yeah, because
if this is important, then thethe behavior doesn't line up
with what you say you want orwho you say you want to be, and

Lynn (01:26:02):
is that not a lot of our work is just consistently
reconciling my behavior with myvalues and recognizing that
there's another countervailingforce that causes us to behave
outside of our values, and thenwe have To work with that. We
have to work with I'm honest,but if it's going to affect my

(01:26:25):
bonus, I'm going to maybe fudge.
Or I'm honest, make me look bad.
I'm going to fudge. You know,where does what does it really
look like to truly be there? Andthen what kind of changes does
that afford that are for thebetter, right?

Carolyn (01:26:43):
Because you're talking about now you're talking about
trust. You know, if we wantpeople to trust us, there has to
be alignment between what we sayand what we do always, and if we
fall short, which we will, thenwe make it right, you know, we
apologize, we go back and say,You know what? That's not who I

(01:27:05):
wanted to be in the moment. Ididn't know what to do, I was
afraid, and I made the wrongdecision. But being able to say
that lets people know, hey,you're on the journey. You may
not be there, but you're you'reon the journey. You're trying to
do the right thing, and that andthat matters. And so that's why
the whole business of knowingwhat's important to you, your

(01:27:28):
values, from your values, thatthat's the foundation upon which
purpose is built. Because ifyou're living in your purpose,
you're living something, youknow it's important that I
support people, that I providethem tools to be better leaders,
better people and that. And onceyou have the values and you know

(01:27:49):
what your purpose is, then youmove. You move and live in your
purpose for the balance of yourdays fall short. Get back up,
you know, but you keep movinginto me, there's there's nothing

(01:28:10):
better to to achieve, to searchfor, to walk towards, um, then
that purpose driven life.

Lynn (01:28:21):
And is that not really, what this is is like, it's not
like your purpose is set instone. It's like your purpose is
something that you're uncoveringand reconciling each day. You
know,

Carolyn (01:28:33):
right? Yeah, because you know what, it's always been
there. So there's a discovery,there's the process, because we
came here fully loaded witheverything that we needed, but
it's the process of life. It'sthe good times, it's the bad

(01:28:54):
times, it's the hard times, it'sthe times of just absolute joy
that keep us moving forward. Andso when we think about it from
that perspective, you know it'sa refining process that's taking
place. You know you're you knowthe things that no longer serve

(01:29:16):
you, you can let them go. And asyou're doing that you know
you're growing more intoyourself and who you want to be,
and the business of thingsshifting and changing in terms
of purpose. I believe thatyou're always still heading in
that core direction. Butsometimes you know you have to

(01:29:37):
have different tools to getthere, and you are refining. You
know, sometimes you can't seethings clearly when you first
get started. So once again, thatpurpose was always there, but it
takes shape in different ways.
You know, maybe you thought thatyou were looking at like a
flower or something. Mm. Thenyou discover there's a whole

(01:30:00):
beautiful landscape. It wasn'tjust the flower, it was the
trees, it was the grassy knoll,it was the rolling hills and the
sunshine and the blue skies. Itwas all of these things. But
when you first started, you justsaw the flower, but that flower
called to you, and so you saidyes, and as you continue to say

(01:30:22):
yes, and you continue to walktowards this purpose and this
journey, things just unfold. Andyou you see so much more than
you could have ever imagined.
And to me, that is the beautyand the purpose of life.

Lynn (01:30:44):
I could just sit and listen to you talk all day.
Carolyn, you know what this isreminding me of is the the
series of blogs that you wrotethat became a book post these
when you were the chief nursingofficer before, and I'm assuming
you're still writing, but tellme a little bit about how you

(01:31:07):
gathered together those piecesand inspirational posts, because
I feel like we just all just gotone, especially around the
purpose of life.

Carolyn (01:31:16):
Flower. Thank you.
Thank you. Um, you know, I whenI was asked to, well, let me
back up a little bit. So as aChief Nurse, we were trying to
look for ways to just stayconnected. You know, when you're
responsible for like, anywherebetween five and 10,000 just
depending on where I was in mycareer, up to 15,000 people. You

(01:31:37):
know, I can't interact witheveryone every single day. So we
came up with the idea of, like,creating a blog where I can
just, you know, send out someinspiration. You know, we care
about you keep going. And whatended up happening with that
was, of course, I had to agreethat, hey, once you start, you

(01:31:58):
can't stop. You know, you gottawrite something every week or
every two weeks, whatevercadence we land on. And so what
happened was I would sit at mytable and I couldn't think of
anything, nothing would come tome, and it would just take
forever, and I would always finda quote would always anchor me,
if I had a thought in my mind.

(01:32:18):
And sometimes I find a quotethat inspired me, that I would
start writing. But what Ilearned to do was to just go in
there, empty and open, and Ilearned to find inspiration in
anything I can. Find inspirationin a rock, in a tree, in a piece
of paper. I just, it just comesto me, and then I'll scribble a

(01:32:43):
little note. I've written blogsabout orange juice. I've written
blogs about a tree, left turns,right turns, headlights, you
know, because there's everythingis revealing something, if we
take the time to notice. And sothat's all I can tell you. I sit

(01:33:08):
there and once I see a thing,and then the writing that I just
start writing. But yeah, and I'mnot writing as much as I need
to. Let me put it like that, butI'm but I tell you, I got a
whole list of these scribblednotes and insights. So those are
the beginnings of someinspiration that I hope will be

(01:33:29):
inspiration

Lynn (01:33:31):
well and and you your book is out for the world to see too,
right?

Carolyn (01:33:36):
Like, yes, it's, yeah, yeah. Some call chasing hope, a
nurse's reflections on healingand hope, and it's really for
everyone. When I first starting,started writing these collection
of blogs, it was more focused onnursing. But then I started
getting emails and responsesfrom people all over the

(01:33:58):
organization, from the librarianto the EBS worker to the
engineer. And so it became,there's always going to be a lot
of health care in in things,just because that's a part of
who I am. But not always.
Sometimes I never even talkedabout patients or families or
mission, just talked about life.

(01:34:21):
And so the book is calledChasing hope, a nurse's
reflections on healing and hope.
And yes, it's available onAmazon. It's available through
the publisher, which is duran'sPublishing. And yes, out there,
and and it's work that gave mehope

Lynn (01:34:42):
it well, it gave me hope too. And I'm not often an advice
giver, but I'm going to say thatI think the best piece of advice
I ever gave you was to make sureyou could get that material so
that it could become a book,because that material created.
Lost in the in the bowels of theorganization, on some computer

(01:35:05):
files somewhere. And I said,Carolyn, whatever you have to do
to make that happen. And youdid, and they did. The
organization helped you withthat.

Carolyn (01:35:14):
Yeah, they did. And then I've, you know, I've added
pieces to that. So some of theinfo, some of the writings in
the book was just, you know,post chief, Nurse exec, and it
was just me continuing myjourney and and just some
growing into where I am today.
And, yeah, yeah, yeah,wonderful.

Lynn (01:35:36):
It's a wonderful thing. So I'm going to highly recommend
people go find that book, eitherat Durant publishing or at
Amazon, which is all for all ofus. It's the easiest place to go
find books. It's kind of likeyou can buy a book from me
because I'm the publisher, but Ijust send you Amazon. Yeah,

(01:35:57):
directly to you, but, but I'msure if somebody is listening to
this, they may be thinking, wow,I would really love to not only
read Carolyn's work, but maybework with her, or I have a team
that I would like to have workwith her. So tell people about
how to find you before I ask youthe next the last question,
which is, I always like to endthe podcast by asking my guests

(01:36:21):
to just, you know, offer adviceor a question or something for
the audience, what you'd like toleave the audience with. But
leading up to that, how wouldpeople find you?

Carolyn (01:36:33):
Um, well, you can find me. I have my website. It's
Reveley coaching us.com and justlook up revelry, which means to
wake up. And also on,

Lynn (01:36:45):
let's spell it, r, e, v, e, i, L, L, E,

Carolyn (01:36:50):
yes, revely and and you can also find me on LinkedIn,

Lynn (01:36:55):
yeah, and you post good, inspiring things on LinkedIn as
well. And of course, we'll haveit in the show notes, because
people, a lot of times just gofind it there. They may be in
their car or something and can'twrite it down

Carolyn (01:37:06):
right now. Yes, yeah, sure, but that's how you can
look me up.

Lynn (01:37:10):
What would you like to leave people with in terms of a
question, a challenge, somethingthat you'd like for them to take
away from this conversation, orsomething for them to have for
their day or their week or more.

Carolyn (01:37:24):
You know I want, for those who are listening to know,
I mean, truly know that you areenough, that you have everything
that you need to be successfulon your life's journey. You may
not feel that way or see thatright now, but there's

(01:37:47):
opportunities for you todiscover all of that through
support. There's nothing wrongwith reaching out to people who
have the tools and the talentand the experience to support
you on your journey. It doesn'thave to be anything formal. You
know? It could be someone inyour community. Communities have
sages, these wise people whoknow the way and can show the

(01:38:11):
way, but never settle foranything less than a purpose
driven

Lynn (01:38:19):
life. Oh, life that's powerful. And what I can say
without a shadow of a doubt isthat if somebody's listening to
this and going, Yeah, that'sfine for her to say, but I can't
do that. I'll say for both youand I, we've long way through a

(01:38:40):
lot of stuff and anything lessthan you know, not a perfect
life that led you to this,right? Anything. But so if you
think you're in a position wherethat can't happen, I'd ask you
to think again for those of youlistening, because right?

Carolyn (01:39:01):
And just reach out. You know, ever know what someone has
to offer? Don't look it. Look atit from the perspective of, I
can't I can't afford this. Idon't have time. You know, what
can you do? What's importantenough so that you can live your
best life?

Lynn (01:39:20):
Yeah, back to that question. What can you do? Focus
on that? Yes. Beautiful Carolyn,I cannot thank you enough for
being here. I'm looking forwardto us continuing to stay in
touch, and I'm looking forwardto getting the responses from
people for this podcast, becauseI know there'll be a lot of

Carolyn (01:39:39):
them, yeah, well, thank you for having me and for those
real honor to be with you.

Lynn (01:39:43):
I'm so glad. Thank you.
And for those of you listening,if you are interested in
continuing to follow what I'mputting out in the world, if you
go to Lynn carnes.com you cansign up for the coaching digest,
which is just a sign up buttonright there. I put out something
pretty much every week, as wellas these podcasts. Yes, so join
us there, and in the meantime,we will see you on the next
podcast. Thank you for listeningto the creative spirits

(01:40:07):
unleashed podcast. I startedthis podcast because I was
having these greatconversations, and I wanted to
share them with others. I'malways learning in these
conversations, and I wanted toshare that kind of learning with
you. Now what I need to hearfrom you is what you want more
of and what you want less of. Ireally want these podcasts to be
of value for the listeners.

(01:40:29):
Also, if you happen to knowsomeone who you think might love
them, please share the podcastand of course, subscribe and
rate it on the different appsthat you're using, because
that's how others will find it.
Now I hope you go and dosomething very fun today. You.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#99 Carolyn Swinton: Chasing Hope

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

All Episodes

#99 Carolyn Swinton: Chasing Hope

Dateline NBC