March 11, 2024 • 38 mins
Have you ever heard of a “branded podcast”?
Angela Hollowell did so well with her own podcast Honey & Hustle, she was approached to create a paid, branded podcast for Castos.
In this episode I pick Angela’s brains about the differences between a personal podcast and a branded podcast, and her experiences of the two.
Tune in to hear about:
- How she was approached to create the Creative Architects podcast
- The restrictions and freedoms of crafting a branded podcast
- How to stay authentic when creating a podcast for others
- The rise of the creator economy
Happy listening!
xo Abi
P.S. For more information about this episode and our guest, head to: www.crispcomms.co/podcast-episodes/exploring-the-world-of-branded-podcasts
Creativity: Uncovered is lovingly edited by the team at Crisp Communications.
Creativity: Uncovered is a registered Australian Trade Mark.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Most podcasts that I know of start when a host is so passionate about a topic they just
(00:12):
want to have an opportunity to explore it more.
I mean, that's certainly how creativity on covered started.
But how about if you were given a podcast and a topic to cover by someone else?
Does that make it harder or does that make it easier to do?
And how do you keep it authentic?
Hi, my name is Abi Gatling and welcome to Creativity (00:30):
Uncovered.
Through this podcast, I uncover how everyday people find inspiration, get inventive and
open their imagination.
And basically, I am on a journey to find out how people use creative solutions at home,
(00:51):
at work, at play and everything in between.
My goal for this podcast is that by the end of it, you'll be armed with a whole suite
of tried and tested ways of something creativity the next time that you need it.
Today I'm very excited to be speaking with Angela Hollowell, who is a video podcaster.
(01:13):
She's a documentarian and a visual storyteller.
And she hosts two podcasts.
One was she started and another was she was approached to do.
And I'm really keen to explore what does that look like and how she's managed it.
So welcome, Angela.
Hey, thanks for having me.
Appreciate you.
(01:34):
Extending your work day to talk to me, which is talking before is actually evening time
where Angela is.
So thank you very much.
I appreciate it.
Yeah.
Now, this is an interesting situation for me because when you mentioned that you were
approached to do a podcast, initially I was like, oh my gosh, that is so bizarre.
(01:57):
But and then I thought about it more when I was thinking, actually, no, we all kind of
monetize our art and our expression in this way that's, you know, lucky enough to have
creative jobs do that.
But for some reason, it was just a bit different to me being a podcast.
And I suppose it's because my one's so personal to me.
So I'm just kind of keen to unpack this with you and see what your experience has been
(02:19):
and what your learnings are and just kind of go from there.
So for context, Angela has two podcasts.
One is creative art, architects.
And the other one is the one that you started, which is Honey and Hustle.
Do you want to just quickly tell us about those podcasts and how you got involved in
each of them?
Yeah, absolutely.
Honey and Hustle was started in 2020, March of 2020, which is obviously the only great
(02:44):
time to start a podcast during a pandemic.
And it was, you know, just like Abi was saying, just something that I was really interested
in doing.
I had no goals or desires to monetize it.
I just wanted to kind of pass the mic, if you will, to people who are doing incredible
work in the triangle.
(03:05):
The triangle is what we call rally during Chapel Hill kind of metro area here in North
Carolina.
And that was great.
You know, I got to maybe the first season of about 20 episodes, learned a lot of things
to do better, like record better audio and have a better process for onboarding people
(03:26):
and maybe don't use cameras that have record limit, you know, all the necessary things to
make a better show and also how to not forget questions in the middle of a sentence.
Right.
So I learned a lot, you know, you learn a lot really quickly when you're doing everything
yourself.
And when you're just starting out and learning and, you know, it wasn't anything I had done
(03:48):
previously hosting people.
So it was just altogether a new experience for me and I've learned and grown a lot from
it over the past three years.
It is definitely fully self funded.
I did start paying editors for Honey and Hustle during season three and that was a game changer.
Love it.
Highly recommended, you know, growing a team around a podcast.
(04:10):
And I finished season three and I was approached by Castos because I was on one of their other
original podcasts and they're like, Hey, we see what you're doing with Honey and Hustle.
We love the video podcast format that you've adopted.
Maybe you would consider, you know, building upon that for an original show for Castos.
They pretty much said, you know, we are only requirement is that the podcast has something
(04:32):
to do with their creative economy, but the premise is up to you.
You'll have access to our designers to design the logo and color schema.
And you'll also have access to our editors who will help you edit the podcast and distribute
it on our channels.
So it was kind of like a win-win situation for me and that I would not have had the time
(04:56):
to start from scratch on another show if I was doing it all myself, because then I would
be in charge of all the moving parts.
So it was nice kind of coming into a team that was already established a little bit
and then just kind of bringing in not only just my skills and talents as a host, but
also my skills and talents as a creative director and kind of be in charge of really again,
(05:18):
just kind of the creative process and the run of show and the guest curation and all
of that type of stuff.
So super nice opportunity.
Is it weird?
Not really.
I think it's kind of a blessing because how many people can say that a brand approached
them and offered to give them money to do something that they already cared about and
(05:38):
loved.
I think it's weird when people come to you, you people being brands and expecting you
to be something different than who you are or fitting to a system they've already established
that doesn't necessarily match your ethos as a creator.
I think that's when it gets kind of hard, but I wasn't asked to do an audio only podcast.
I wasn't asked to do anything different than what I was already doing.
(06:00):
In fact, I was asked really given an opportunity to augment that and increase my capacity.
And so that's kind of how creative architects got started because I was really just thinking
about, okay, the creator economy, that's such a broad topic.
And there are so many incredible podcasts already doing topics on that.
Like some of the big ones that I listen to on a regular basis, like the Colin and Sumire
(06:21):
show or Matt Diabello's podcast, and that was up and going, Tim Ferriss's podcast to
some degree and Guy Ross, how about this?
All these things have to do with your creative economy in some way, shape or form.
And I was like, well, what can I add to that conversation?
What's not being talked about?
What more importantly do I care about that I can sit down and talk about for 30 minutes
(06:44):
or however long?
And how does this add to the space?
And so I started thinking about creative communities, like how people are coming together and seeking
community in various ways.
I started thinking about the rise in creator led education.
So creators building their own courses.
I thought that was a really interesting phenomenon, especially with the cohort based education
(07:06):
being kind of intriguing to a lot of people.
And then I thought about creative tech companies, which felt like they're popping up like gangbusters.
You know what I mean?
So every day I'm learning a new company that's going to help me make better short clips or
help me get better audio for my cell phone or something.
So I was really interested in how these companies were coming about, how they were testing their
(07:29):
market products and things like that.
So that's kind of the three premises that we cover in creative architects.
And I hope I answered your question about creativity.
Oh, my God.
I mean, that is so cool.
Firstly, congrats that you have produced such a cool podcast with such a nice aesthetic
(07:49):
and outcomes and great conversations that a brand has handpicked you to do this.
That's a buddy good achievement.
Were you absolutely stoked when that happened or was it out of the blue?
Or like, how did that actually happen?
It was definitely out of the blue.
I had gone on audience, which is another cast that's original earlier in this year.
(08:13):
And I didn't think anything of it.
I thought it was great.
I thought it did really well on social media, but that's not to indicate how people responded
to the audio only version.
But I thought it went well.
Me and Stuart, who was the host of That Sugar Along Really Well, we really bonded over our
mutual love of Zane Lowe, who I think is from your neck of the woods.
He's from New Zealand originally.
He's an incredible host now with Apple Music and get some time at BBC Radio.
(08:37):
So we fell in love over that.
So I remembered him and he also lives in North Carolina, which is interesting, for a remote
company that we're both in the same state.
And so yeah, so it was cool when he reached back out.
I wasn't like, why is he talking to me?
But I was like, oh man, this is crazy.
Is he messing with me?
That's so cool.
I mean, the only other people I've heard that happened to is like celebrities, you know,
(09:05):
like was it Prince Harry and Meghan Markle and Spotify approaching them?
And I don't even know if that even happened in the end, but that's pretty cool.
And also Zane Rose, that's so neat.
I freaking love that.
Represent.
Yeah, yeah, we love them.
Yeah.
And I think that's also cool because I didn't know that they sort of had come to you with
(09:26):
a topic in mind, but you had so much creative freedom with that.
For me, I find that it's awesome when you get so much trust, but also when you have
such a broad or blank space, it's so hard to know where to start with that.
(09:48):
So I know you came up with these three things, but did you go through a bunch of other different
ideas and sort of throw them out the window before you settle on those sort of topics?
Yeah, yeah.
And I think this goes back to maybe like my more affinity to being really interested in
like the ideation and like pre-production process.
Like I love a good research stint.
(10:09):
I love a good brainstorm.
So I just had this Word document that I would just throw ideas on.
If I got an idea in the shower, I'd write it down, put it in the document.
If I got an idea while I was walking, write it down, put it in the document.
And then once I got kind of closer, so it actually, the premise was actually going to
be originally I was going to do one topic every season and then alternate, but then
(10:30):
do it.
So why limit yourself to one topic each season?
Why not like mix it up and give people an idea of what they can expect?
And so I think that was a better idea because sometimes, you know, you have a guest list
that you want to get people on, but they're not always available.
So it kind of helped with a variety of people I could reach out to as well.
(10:51):
So that was really helpful.
And yeah, some stuff too, you know, you come up with ideas and you're like, oh, that name's
taken.
Oh, that show already exists.
Or you know what I mean?
So it's kind of like, I don't want to copy what's already been done.
I want to make a new space.
So yeah, I certainly found out with this one is that not necessarily about the topic because
(11:12):
I was just interested in just exploring this topic myself.
But I had another name and I saw someone else had it.
But they, you know, it was frustrating when you come up with like a perfect name.
Someone else has it, but they're not using it.
So there was not a time.
Yeah.
And I came up with the same.
I was like, this is brilliant.
And I searched and I'm like, oh, no, there's another podcast.
(11:32):
Oh, but they haven't done anything since like 2018 or something.
So I was like, oh, it sucks.
Yeah.
I found a couple like that where people like pod fade.
And it's like, you only give it seven episodes.
Like give up the name.
Or they have the social media handles too.
And you're like, man, this is like all the way taken.
I can't get around it.
It's so hard.
(11:55):
But yeah, that is really interesting.
And it's also hard like choosing a topic as well because you want to be niche enough that
people can find and really cling on to what you're talking about.
But and they really just limit how many guests you can find.
And the pool of people who you can approach to talk about it.
(12:15):
So I think it is cool that you sort of like got a couple of different topics that you
can broaden your search for people.
How do you actually find people to be on your podcast?
So it's a mix.
And I think part of this, you know, going back to the idea that, you know, most people
started podcasts because they're super interested in it.
(12:36):
You know, part of it is just being a part of the creative industry and creative conversations
online on Twitter, mostly on LinkedIn, on YouTube.
So kind of knowing who are the people in this space that I would be interested in speaking
with.
And that would be good fits for the show.
So some of them, you know, a lot of them I was already following on Twitter, so I was
aware of them.
And then some of them came to me through, you know, recommendations and just LinkedIn kind
(13:00):
of connections.
People are like, oh, I saw you had so and so on the show.
Have you heard of, you know, this company that's also doing this?
I was like, oh, no, can you connect me?
Would that be great?
And I think some of it too, there's some beauty in being limited and who is a good fit for
your show.
Because I think it allows you to be more focused and more intentional with your conversations
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and just ensuring that the people you have on are definitely going to be like relevant
to, you know, the premise of the show.
One thing I was listening to Colin and Samir show and one of the things they were like
talking about like, how do you make the best, you know, YouTube video intro.
And one of the things is like, once people get onto the video, like once they click,
(13:43):
it's like you have to confirm that they are going to get what they think they clicked for
like they are going to get the outcome that you promised in your thumbnail and title.
And I think that is kind of the same thing with the podcast, especially someone is just
viewing you for the first time.
And maybe they search for the guest name because you have a big guest name, or maybe they searched
for creative or creator in Spotify or Apple and this comes up, you know, you want them
(14:08):
to feel like, yes, I'm going to get something on the topic of creativity or the creator
economy.
Because if you get on there and they're talking about their intimate relationship with their
dog and how that's, you know, you know, affected their view on life, you're probably going
to be a little bit confused.
It's not that that's not a great conversation.
It's just that's not what you came for.
(14:29):
And so I try to be mindful of that as well.
Like, you know, who can I get on here that yes, we're going to talk about that and also
have fun.
So make it a really good mix, but ensure that people feel fulfilled by the podcast episode
or the podcast premise.
Yes, yes.
And so now, now you have started and you've got all these episodes out.
(14:51):
What is Kastos' influence or ongoing commitment or relationship with you?
Yeah, that's going to great question because we're about to finish season one.
So here's to hoping we get renewed for season two.
I think we will be.
But I think they've just been super supportive throughout the process, you know, and I think,
(15:13):
you know, right now we're really interested in just growing the name recognition around
the show and exploring how we can do that either through my personal brand or through
Kastos' channels because as you probably noticed, Kastos isn't super big on social
media and I don't think they really want to be and that's okay.
But we really want to, you know, just continue to establish creative architects as like a
(15:37):
really important show.
I don't know if important is the right word, but maybe show that people should check out,
you know, a show worth your time of checking out in the next, you know, three to six months,
I think.
That's cool.
I mean, Fingers Prostate gets renewed.
It's a really cool show.
I think there's so many more people you could talk to and it's just an interesting topic
(16:01):
to explore.
But do they get involved in vetting your guests or anything like that, suggesting guests and
stuff like that to you?
Not really.
Wow.
So it's like, cool freedom.
That's amazing.
That's really cool.
That's really cool.
And so this is what we would call like a branded podcast, right?
(16:22):
Yeah.
So what does that mean necessarily?
So you said they've given you access to their resources and teams and stuff like that.
What else does it mean?
It also means that I don't own the intellectual property rights for the show.
So this is a part of the Kastos brand.
(16:43):
So I will say that.
And I think you have to be comfortable with that if you're making something for a brand.
That's just out of the gate.
But I don't think that's unusual.
Issa Reyes sold intellectual property rights to HBO for Insecure.
And I think she's done very well off that and she's created more shows with them and
has a really good relationship with HBO.
(17:03):
I don't know if I see myself getting $40 million deals tomorrow, but one can dream.
And the other half of this is that, you know, while, you know, yes, they came to me and,
you know, to create this show, you know, there are things that I did run by them, you know,
like I did the show Craig, like the Craig is the founder of Kastos.
(17:27):
I did show him the guest list.
So it's not like I'm just like blindly, you know, adding people.
We do strategize together on like how to grow the show and how to make it better.
We do talk about, you know, some of the cross promotion stuff that I'm doing with other
podcasters and that I went to podcast festivals and, you know, we spoke about that.
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And then, you know, if you listen to every episode, there's always going to be an ad
read for Kastos always.
So it's always about pointing back people back to Kastos because that's essentially
what they want.
Like, hey, you like this show?
Great.
Why don't you put your amazing show on Kastos?
You know, why don't you take advantage of all the amazing features that are making this
show possible?
And I think it's smart, you know what I mean?
(18:08):
Like who better to, you know, promote a podcast brand than a podcaster and to have that kind
of in every episode, I think it's awesome for them and not a huge lift from me.
You know what I mean?
Like I don't feel like that detracts from the quality of the show at all.
I don't feel like it detracts from my creativity and it's kind of awesome being able to do
that every episode and really think out of the box about like how can I craft a video
(18:31):
that points back to an incredible feature that Kastos has, you know?
Yeah, it's kind of, it's like influencer marketing almost, isn't it?
A little bit.
I'm an influencer.
You're an influencer.
Or just influencer.
I mean, but it's also good though because you're using the product and you obviously like
(18:51):
the product.
So that is like a fantastic piece of marketing.
I mean, I am in marketing, so I'm like, I'm just very curious about this and how it all
works.
And are there any other restrictions like that they have said you definitely can't,
you can do anything like you just can't do this one thing?
No, we haven't come across that yet.
(19:14):
Thank Jesus.
No, I think it's been pretty chill and it's been a good partnership.
Yeah, cool.
And do they pay you to do this?
Yes, they do pay me.
That's about as much as I feel comfortable saying they do pay me.
This is interesting.
If someone is trying to potentially do a collaboration, do a branded podcast, they
(19:39):
should ask for payment, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
The goal is to make the brand money.
They're not doing it, they're not coming up with their original show just because it's
fun and giggles like the majority of podcasters are coming up with it because it's an avenue
for marketing for their brand.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So this kind of leads us to the creator economy again, I guess, because as I said, sort of
(20:03):
in my intro, it makes total sense that people exchange their creativity for money because
some people do it just purely for fun and their own personal enjoyment and that's also
great.
But there's nothing wrong with actually making money out of your creativity.
But I've never really heard too much about the creator economy necessarily.
(20:25):
What does that actually mean?
That is a great question and I think many people have different answers.
My definition of the creator economy is middle-class creators, right?
So not your celebrity podcasters on Spotify.
It's like the people like you and me who wake up every day and they're like, "I want this
(20:46):
to be my job."
I think this should be a feasible option for me and this is how I'm exploring making
that work and maybe changing the narrative around the words like gig worker or gig economy
or freelancer to really think about creators as small business owners and entrepreneurs
and really take that element or industry seriously and not just like looking at it as a side
(21:13):
hustle.
So that's kind of what the creator economy for me looks like.
Yeah, because I always get confused about when are you a freelancer and when are you
just a small business?
What is the difference?
It's the same thing.
You still have to have your own...
In Australia, you still have to have your own business registered.
(21:33):
You could be yourself a sole proprietor or something like that, but you're still a business
if you're freelancing.
So what fundamentally, is there a difference do you think in terms of those two terms?
I think if we're splitting hairs here, I think they're both business owners because like
you said here in America is the same thing.
(21:54):
You still have to have an LLC registered in order to accept payment under that name, that
business moniker.
And I think the distinction comes from like solopreneur to entrepreneur when you start
like working with other people essentially.
When you start hiring subcontractors, when you start becoming a subcontractor for other
(22:15):
people, I think that takes on a different connotation because now one of the things that people
associate with the economy is the ability to create jobs.
How can your business create jobs and bring revenue to other people?
And so I think once you start paying other people for their time and their services and
their talents, then you start kind of maybe going into that entrepreneurship realm because
(22:36):
that's a whole other set of paperwork, a whole other set of thinking and demonstrates a certain
level of need.
Because if you could do most of it yourself or all of it yourself, you just would.
So I think it's important to recognize too the growing level of creators that are starting
to work together because the need is there, right?
(22:56):
Bigger projects are there.
Branded shows are there.
Bigger commercial projects are available now.
And maybe they always have been, but maybe they've only been reserved for agencies, bigger
Hollywood level production teams.
But now it's like a girl in Durham, North Carolina who is working on a project and needs
another camera option.
(23:17):
She needs an editor.
She needs a writer.
She needs a social media person.
So I think the level of collaboration and co-working that's going on in the creative
space is really what's bringing topics like the viability of the creator economy to the
forefront.
Yeah.
I think that's a cool topic that you cover on the podcast because it's for creators who
(23:43):
want to make money out of there.
It will change their hobby or their craft into a business.
But not everyone is really business minded and don't know how to do all these things.
You have to wear so many hats when you're trying to get into that space.
So I think it's really cool that your show is even doing that for people, helping bring
(24:07):
people together and share the knowledge around.
Yeah.
And I think that's why the creative education has been sticking out to me because a lot
of this stuff that I learned as a creative business owner and I paid for a course early
on and a lot of things that I see other people learning like when they pay for a ship 30
for 30 cohort or something like that, it's like these are things you probably are not
(24:28):
learning in college, right?
And if you wanted to learn them on your own, it would probably take you a lot longer, a
lot longer to build the community that would give you feedback, a lot longer to build
a social media presence that would allow for creative community development and a lot longer
to find a mentor that would be honest with you about your work and your writing.
(24:51):
And so I think there's something to the extent that like, yeah, it may seem crazy to pay
for a couple hundred dollars, even a couple thousand dollars.
But like, what is that in exchange for the long term sustainability of the business?
What is that in the place of the time it would take if you wanted to learn it all on your
own?
And for people that increasingly are finding college way too expensive here in the United
(25:14):
States, like what is that in place of college degree that would teach you any of the skills
you need in life as a creative business owner?
So I'm not saying like no skills.
Like you learn things in college, don't get me wrong, but maybe not specifically towards
the area of creativity that you want to build a brand or a business around.
So I think about that often and I think that that's something really awesome that's come
(25:35):
out of the show.
Yes.
Are you finding that you're learning a lot of this stuff as well?
Like while you're having these conversations?
Oh yeah.
I mean, like, I think there's something to the fact, especially now I did in People Can
Roast Me For This in the comments.
I don't care.
But I did take advantage of like thinking big.
(25:58):
You know what I mean?
Like I'm always like one of those people that's like, if I have an opportunity to dream big,
I'm going to dream big.
Like why not get some of the biggest creators and biggest creator tech companies that I
can, right?
So I was able to talk to Jen from Passion Fruit about, you know, her idea around sponsorship
and like raising money for your show.
And Jay Klaus around like his, you know, thinking around creative community development and
(26:20):
why he created a paid community and what that looks like.
And even, you know, Justin Moore of the Creator Wizard, who's like an incredible, yeah, some
brand sponsorships, but also like how to build a business that like doesn't scare the
hell out of you, but also allows you to like make money and do it well and do it in a way
that allows you to have capacity to still like spend time with your family and like,
(26:44):
you know, create the things that you care about.
So I think like all those things, and there's many more.
I love all the people on my show.
I just put that they're all awesome.
You know, Jeremy ends as well.
He did the podcast marketing Academy.
Super awesome course.
So to be able to talk to people like that, you know, people that are, you know, have
been in the game for a while, have done it, you know, at scale and are now kind of like
(27:05):
packaging something.
Like how do you even package something like that?
If I were to get to a place where I'm like, I want to make a paid course on branded communities
or branded, you know, podcasts, like how are I even packaged that?
How would I do that in a way that's sustainable and that like makes it valuable for people?
So I think it's just been an all around good experience being able to learn from all these
folks and really be able to talk with them for, you know, a couple of minutes.
(27:28):
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's cool.
It certainly is.
It's a great opportunity when you have a podcast, you've got this really cool opportunity and
a legitimate reason to reach out to people who just spark your curiosity or you want
to learn from.
So yeah, go take all advantages of that for sure.
And also about like thinking big, I think that's great.
I know if I was like, you know, dream big and you can do it, but whatever, you know,
(27:54):
if you don't, like if you don't actually even cast your mind to that, you'll never actually
do it, right?
I think it's awesome that you are, you know, you're talented enough that you've been approached
to do this.
You're having great conversations that you're learning from and you're also thinking about
how you can apply this in the future.
That's such a cool win, win, win, win, win all over the place.
(28:15):
This wins for everyone right now.
I'm feeling sure.
Yeah.
And one thing I will say, because I don't want people thinking like they're going to
go on the show and they're going to hear me just talking about what I'm interested in.
Like I also try to make sure that anybody listening, even if they're not a video creator,
if they're not a podcaster, maybe they're a writer, you know, maybe they're a designer,
an illustrator, an animator, a photographer, you know, that they're going to get something
(28:39):
out of it.
And that's also something that, you know, I would caution people if you're making a
branded show, especially an interview based show, like there is certain, there's a certain
level of selfishness that you can have, but also like, please keep in mind your audience.
You know, like it shouldn't feel like people are listening into a one on one coaching call
on some level, like be mindful of like what anybody who's not in your position would want
(29:02):
to know or want to ask and be interested in to learn as well.
Yeah.
I think that's why it's so good that you have such a firm focus on what the topic of the
podcast is about is that, you know, as long as you're always keeping that in mind, then
your conversations are going to be good.
Yeah.
(29:23):
Is it much crossover between your creative architects and Honey and Hustle?
What do you mean by crossover?
Do you ever get guests across to one or learnings from one to the other or either you do keep
the two very much separate?
Um, I haven't brought on any guests from Honey and Hustle on creative architects.
(29:44):
And in terms of learning, I would say yes.
Just in terms of, you know, me being a creator, like thinking rationally about how I could
apply, you know, some of the learnings to what I'm doing with Honey and Hustle, because
that's still self-funded unless anybody watching or listening to this wants to, you know, sponsor
your girl.
Um, but, um, so I think some of it, you know, some things that I've had been considering
(30:08):
too is like, you know, if I'm going to do a community, what is that going to look like?
You know, because for me, I always wanted to be accessible.
So what would a free and a paid community look like?
Can I have it in the same place?
What are some of the things that I would want people on their free tier to have access to?
Um, and how can I make it sustainable?
(30:30):
Right?
Because a lot of people, let's say Patreon, a lot of people start Patreon's and then they
quit because even though they're making money, they can't sustain the amount of content that
they promised.
And so it just becomes like another job.
And so I think about that as well.
Um, and, you know, for example, um, a paid course, you know, a creative course, you know,
(30:51):
if I were to create something like that, can I be realistic about how long it takes?
Do I really have the capacity to do that right now?
If I am going to do it, what's the best way for me to do that?
Where should I host it?
What are some things I should offer?
How should I structure one-on-one time with, you know, the people that buy the course?
How can I make it something that grows and gets enhanced every year?
(31:12):
Um, you know, and how can I meet the needs of people who maybe are willing to pay a little
bit more for more one-on-one access to me versus people who are like, I'm happy just
doing it self-paced.
Like I don't really care.
Like I just need to learn, you know, so I think about that too.
And that's something that, you know, maybe in the next six months, you might see come into
fruition in my own life.
But those are kind of some of the things that, you know, I've definitely thought about and
(31:35):
it's been nice to explore on Creative Architects.
Will there be cross-over in the future?
I don't know.
We'll have to wait and see, you know.
Yeah.
I mean, that's so cool.
I love the fact that you're doing all this thinking about it, but also, yeah, focusing
on the sustainability because you said you mentioned before when you ended up outsourcing
(31:56):
your editing to someone.
It was such a relief.
And I think that is one way that we can help, you know, ensure that what we're doing is
sustainable is acknowledging that we have our own limits and we can't do everything
and still have our regular jobs and a social life and our family.
And it's where like, it's so many hats, something's got to give along the way.
(32:21):
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah, definitely.
And let's quickly, before we go, I would love to talk a little bit about your own creativity
because you're a videographer and you make documentaries.
And tell me about that.
How did you get into that?
(32:42):
I got into it like super organically and selfishly.
I started, I picked up a camera after I went to Spain.
I did a study abroad trip in Spain in 2014.
So coming up on 10 years now, the anniversary of that, which is crazy.
But I picked up a camera after that because after I got back from Spain, my phone factory
reset itself so I had no pictures from that original trip.
(33:04):
And I was like, never again, I paid all this money I spent all this time, I had so many
great memories and now I have nothing to show for it.
And I was like, I'm never going to let that happen again.
I've got the bug, like I want to travel more, I want to document my life.
And so I worked all summer and I spent my check on a camera, which is not sound financial
advice, but creatively, I didn't care.
(33:25):
I just wanted a camera to have around with me.
And that's kind of how it got started.
And then maybe my senior year of college, my friends were like, yo, Angela, you can make
some money.
Like you could, you know, start selling graduation portrait sessions and stuff like that.
And I was like, I don't know if people will pay for it.
But they did.
And that was kind of how things got going a little bit.
(33:46):
I did my first wedding in September of 2016.
And for me at the time, still being a fairly novice photographer, I was like, oh, this
is like the pinnacle, you know, because when weddings, you can't miss, you know, they
can't repeat that day just because you missed a shot.
So I started taking myself a little more seriously.
And I started the first iteration of the business then.
(34:08):
And I just kind of kept growing.
And once I graduated from college and started thinking like, okay, what do I actually want
to do with my life?
Like, how do I actually want to make money?
And I started thinking like, and seeing that there were just so few people that did photo
and video because we were still kind of on the early ages of video and DSLR being accessible,
(34:28):
right, for like everyday people who couldn't afford a $10,000 cinema camera.
So I started thinking seriously about like, okay, if I could do photo and video really
well, I could name my own price.
And so that's what I did.
I just started learning and growing as kind of a hybrid photo and video person.
I still am a hybrid photo and video person, but now I kind of keep photography to myself.
(34:52):
I actually just splurged on this little like everyday camera.
For people who are listening and not watching, I just showed like this overpriced camera
that I paid for.
But anyways, yeah, I just feel like it's so essential, especially now, you know, you
got to think, I started that company in 2016, and now it's 2023.
(35:13):
So it's been over seven years.
And there's a part of me that's always just like going back to like, I just want to document
my life, you know, I just want to document the cool things that are going on.
And they're important to me, like my family, my friends, the place that I live, the places
that I get to go and bless to go for work and for pleasure.
And I'm largely able to keep photography for me, you know, I get to photograph on my
(35:36):
own terms, I get to hang out with people in my own terms.
And I think there's always some element of me that will always want that.
And even now, you know, I love creating at the level that I'm creating at, it feels great.
But there's also, again, like even in my career now, it's less about like, okay, how can I
make the most money being a hybrid photographer, filmmaker, or filmmaker podcast, but more
(35:59):
about like, how can I make money doing the things that I care about, right, and doing
things that are interesting to me.
And so I think that creative architects, Honey and Hustle, all the documentaries that I'm
working on are wonderful examples of that maturation over time.
That's cool.
And it all makes sense why you have a video podcast now.
Oh, no, that is so cool.
(36:22):
I absolutely just loved picking your brain stay.
Thank you so much for joining me.
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you for having me.
This was fun.
Yeah.
And I also want to thank everyone who's doing Creativity (36:30):
Uncovered today.
I really hope that this episode has inspired you to just do more of what you love.
It obviously is working.
And as always, I hope that it helps you, someone creative to use the next time that you need
(37:09):
it.
If you've made it this far, a huge thank you for your support and tuning into today's
episode.
Creativity (37:24):
Uncovered has been lovingly recorded on the land of the Kabi Kabi people, and
we pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging.
This podcast has been produced by my amazing team here at Crisp Communications and the
music you just heard was composed by James Gatling.
If you liked this episode, please do share it around and help us on our mission to unlock
(37:50):
more creativity in this world.
You can also hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any new episode releases.
Thank you for watching.
Most podcasts that I know of start when a host is so passionate about a topic they just
(00:12):
want to have an opportunity to explore it more.
I mean, that's certainly how creativity on covered started.
But how about if you were given a podcast and a topic to cover by someone else?
Does that make it harder or does that make it easier to do?
And how do you keep it authentic?
Hi, my name is Abi Gatling and welcome to Creativity (00:30):
Uncovered.
Through this podcast, I uncover how everyday people find inspiration, get inventive and
open their imagination.
And basically, I am on a journey to find out how people use creative solutions at home,
(00:51):
at work, at play and everything in between.
My goal for this podcast is that by the end of it, you'll be armed with a whole suite
of tried and tested ways of something creativity the next time that you need it.
Today I'm very excited to be speaking with Angela Hollowell, who is a video podcaster.
(01:13):
She's a documentarian and a visual storyteller.
And she hosts two podcasts.
One was she started and another was she was approached to do.
And I'm really keen to explore what does that look like and how she's managed it.
So welcome, Angela.
Hey, thanks for having me.
Appreciate you.
(01:34):
Extending your work day to talk to me, which is talking before is actually evening time
where Angela is.
So thank you very much.
I appreciate it.
Yeah.
Now, this is an interesting situation for me because when you mentioned that you were
approached to do a podcast, initially I was like, oh my gosh, that is so bizarre.
(01:57):
But and then I thought about it more when I was thinking, actually, no, we all kind of
monetize our art and our expression in this way that's, you know, lucky enough to have
creative jobs do that.
But for some reason, it was just a bit different to me being a podcast.
And I suppose it's because my one's so personal to me.
So I'm just kind of keen to unpack this with you and see what your experience has been
(02:19):
and what your learnings are and just kind of go from there.
So for context, Angela has two podcasts.
One is creative art, architects.
And the other one is the one that you started, which is Honey and Hustle.
Do you want to just quickly tell us about those podcasts and how you got involved in
each of them?
Yeah, absolutely.
Honey and Hustle was started in 2020, March of 2020, which is obviously the only great
(02:44):
time to start a podcast during a pandemic.
And it was, you know, just like Abi was saying, just something that I was really interested
in doing.
I had no goals or desires to monetize it.
I just wanted to kind of pass the mic, if you will, to people who are doing incredible
work in the triangle.
(03:05):
The triangle is what we call rally during Chapel Hill kind of metro area here in North
Carolina.
And that was great.
You know, I got to maybe the first season of about 20 episodes, learned a lot of things
to do better, like record better audio and have a better process for onboarding people
(03:26):
and maybe don't use cameras that have record limit, you know, all the necessary things to
make a better show and also how to not forget questions in the middle of a sentence.
Right.
So I learned a lot, you know, you learn a lot really quickly when you're doing everything
yourself.
And when you're just starting out and learning and, you know, it wasn't anything I had done
(03:48):
previously hosting people.
So it was just altogether a new experience for me and I've learned and grown a lot from
it over the past three years.
It is definitely fully self funded.
I did start paying editors for Honey and Hustle during season three and that was a game changer.
Love it.
Highly recommended, you know, growing a team around a podcast.
(04:10):
And I finished season three and I was approached by Castos because I was on one of their other
original podcasts and they're like, Hey, we see what you're doing with Honey and Hustle.
We love the video podcast format that you've adopted.
Maybe you would consider, you know, building upon that for an original show for Castos.
They pretty much said, you know, we are only requirement is that the podcast has something
(04:32):
to do with their creative economy, but the premise is up to you.
You'll have access to our designers to design the logo and color schema.
And you'll also have access to our editors who will help you edit the podcast and distribute
it on our channels.
So it was kind of like a win-win situation for me and that I would not have had the time
(04:56):
to start from scratch on another show if I was doing it all myself, because then I would
be in charge of all the moving parts.
So it was nice kind of coming into a team that was already established a little bit
and then just kind of bringing in not only just my skills and talents as a host, but
also my skills and talents as a creative director and kind of be in charge of really again,
(05:18):
just kind of the creative process and the run of show and the guest curation and all
of that type of stuff.
So super nice opportunity.
Is it weird?
Not really.
I think it's kind of a blessing because how many people can say that a brand approached
them and offered to give them money to do something that they already cared about and
(05:38):
loved.
I think it's weird when people come to you, you people being brands and expecting you
to be something different than who you are or fitting to a system they've already established
that doesn't necessarily match your ethos as a creator.
I think that's when it gets kind of hard, but I wasn't asked to do an audio only podcast.
I wasn't asked to do anything different than what I was already doing.
(06:00):
In fact, I was asked really given an opportunity to augment that and increase my capacity.
And so that's kind of how creative architects got started because I was really just thinking
about, okay, the creator economy, that's such a broad topic.
And there are so many incredible podcasts already doing topics on that.
Like some of the big ones that I listen to on a regular basis, like the Colin and Sumire
(06:21):
show or Matt Diabello's podcast, and that was up and going, Tim Ferriss's podcast to
some degree and Guy Ross, how about this?
All these things have to do with your creative economy in some way, shape or form.
And I was like, well, what can I add to that conversation?
What's not being talked about?
What more importantly do I care about that I can sit down and talk about for 30 minutes
(06:44):
or however long?
And how does this add to the space?
And so I started thinking about creative communities, like how people are coming together and seeking
community in various ways.
I started thinking about the rise in creator led education.
So creators building their own courses.
I thought that was a really interesting phenomenon, especially with the cohort based education
(07:06):
being kind of intriguing to a lot of people.
And then I thought about creative tech companies, which felt like they're popping up like gangbusters.
You know what I mean?
So every day I'm learning a new company that's going to help me make better short clips or
help me get better audio for my cell phone or something.
So I was really interested in how these companies were coming about, how they were testing their
(07:29):
market products and things like that.
So that's kind of the three premises that we cover in creative architects.
And I hope I answered your question about creativity.
Oh, my God.
I mean, that is so cool.
Firstly, congrats that you have produced such a cool podcast with such a nice aesthetic
(07:49):
and outcomes and great conversations that a brand has handpicked you to do this.
That's a buddy good achievement.
Were you absolutely stoked when that happened or was it out of the blue?
Or like, how did that actually happen?
It was definitely out of the blue.
I had gone on audience, which is another cast that's original earlier in this year.
(08:13):
And I didn't think anything of it.
I thought it was great.
I thought it did really well on social media, but that's not to indicate how people responded
to the audio only version.
But I thought it went well.
Me and Stuart, who was the host of That Sugar Along Really Well, we really bonded over our
mutual love of Zane Lowe, who I think is from your neck of the woods.
He's from New Zealand originally.
He's an incredible host now with Apple Music and get some time at BBC Radio.
(08:37):
So we fell in love over that.
So I remembered him and he also lives in North Carolina, which is interesting, for a remote
company that we're both in the same state.
And so yeah, so it was cool when he reached back out.
I wasn't like, why is he talking to me?
But I was like, oh man, this is crazy.
Is he messing with me?
That's so cool.
I mean, the only other people I've heard that happened to is like celebrities, you know,
(09:05):
like was it Prince Harry and Meghan Markle and Spotify approaching them?
And I don't even know if that even happened in the end, but that's pretty cool.
And also Zane Rose, that's so neat.
I freaking love that.
Represent.
Yeah, yeah, we love them.
Yeah.
And I think that's also cool because I didn't know that they sort of had come to you with
(09:26):
a topic in mind, but you had so much creative freedom with that.
For me, I find that it's awesome when you get so much trust, but also when you have
such a broad or blank space, it's so hard to know where to start with that.
(09:48):
So I know you came up with these three things, but did you go through a bunch of other different
ideas and sort of throw them out the window before you settle on those sort of topics?
Yeah, yeah.
And I think this goes back to maybe like my more affinity to being really interested in
like the ideation and like pre-production process.
Like I love a good research stint.
(10:09):
I love a good brainstorm.
So I just had this Word document that I would just throw ideas on.
If I got an idea in the shower, I'd write it down, put it in the document.
If I got an idea while I was walking, write it down, put it in the document.
And then once I got kind of closer, so it actually, the premise was actually going to
be originally I was going to do one topic every season and then alternate, but then
(10:30):
do it.
So why limit yourself to one topic each season?
Why not like mix it up and give people an idea of what they can expect?
And so I think that was a better idea because sometimes, you know, you have a guest list
that you want to get people on, but they're not always available.
So it kind of helped with a variety of people I could reach out to as well.
(10:51):
So that was really helpful.
And yeah, some stuff too, you know, you come up with ideas and you're like, oh, that name's
taken.
Oh, that show already exists.
Or you know what I mean?
So it's kind of like, I don't want to copy what's already been done.
I want to make a new space.
So yeah, I certainly found out with this one is that not necessarily about the topic because
(11:12):
I was just interested in just exploring this topic myself.
But I had another name and I saw someone else had it.
But they, you know, it was frustrating when you come up with like a perfect name.
Someone else has it, but they're not using it.
So there was not a time.
Yeah.
And I came up with the same.
I was like, this is brilliant.
And I searched and I'm like, oh, no, there's another podcast.
(11:32):
Oh, but they haven't done anything since like 2018 or something.
So I was like, oh, it sucks.
Yeah.
I found a couple like that where people like pod fade.
And it's like, you only give it seven episodes.
Like give up the name.
Or they have the social media handles too.
And you're like, man, this is like all the way taken.
I can't get around it.
It's so hard.
(11:55):
But yeah, that is really interesting.
And it's also hard like choosing a topic as well because you want to be niche enough that
people can find and really cling on to what you're talking about.
But and they really just limit how many guests you can find.
And the pool of people who you can approach to talk about it.
(12:15):
So I think it is cool that you sort of like got a couple of different topics that you
can broaden your search for people.
How do you actually find people to be on your podcast?
So it's a mix.
And I think part of this, you know, going back to the idea that, you know, most people
started podcasts because they're super interested in it.
(12:36):
You know, part of it is just being a part of the creative industry and creative conversations
online on Twitter, mostly on LinkedIn, on YouTube.
So kind of knowing who are the people in this space that I would be interested in speaking
with.
And that would be good fits for the show.
So some of them, you know, a lot of them I was already following on Twitter, so I was
aware of them.
And then some of them came to me through, you know, recommendations and just LinkedIn kind
(13:00):
of connections.
People are like, oh, I saw you had so and so on the show.
Have you heard of, you know, this company that's also doing this?
I was like, oh, no, can you connect me?
Would that be great?
And I think some of it too, there's some beauty in being limited and who is a good fit for
your show.
Because I think it allows you to be more focused and more intentional with your conversations
(13:22):
and just ensuring that the people you have on are definitely going to be like relevant
to, you know, the premise of the show.
One thing I was listening to Colin and Samir show and one of the things they were like
talking about like, how do you make the best, you know, YouTube video intro.
And one of the things is like, once people get onto the video, like once they click,
(13:43):
it's like you have to confirm that they are going to get what they think they clicked for
like they are going to get the outcome that you promised in your thumbnail and title.
And I think that is kind of the same thing with the podcast, especially someone is just
viewing you for the first time.
And maybe they search for the guest name because you have a big guest name, or maybe they searched
for creative or creator in Spotify or Apple and this comes up, you know, you want them
(14:08):
to feel like, yes, I'm going to get something on the topic of creativity or the creator
economy.
Because if you get on there and they're talking about their intimate relationship with their
dog and how that's, you know, you know, affected their view on life, you're probably going
to be a little bit confused.
It's not that that's not a great conversation.
It's just that's not what you came for.
(14:29):
And so I try to be mindful of that as well.
Like, you know, who can I get on here that yes, we're going to talk about that and also
have fun.
So make it a really good mix, but ensure that people feel fulfilled by the podcast episode
or the podcast premise.
Yes, yes.
And so now, now you have started and you've got all these episodes out.
(14:51):
What is Kastos' influence or ongoing commitment or relationship with you?
Yeah, that's going to great question because we're about to finish season one.
So here's to hoping we get renewed for season two.
I think we will be.
But I think they've just been super supportive throughout the process, you know, and I think,
(15:13):
you know, right now we're really interested in just growing the name recognition around
the show and exploring how we can do that either through my personal brand or through
Kastos' channels because as you probably noticed, Kastos isn't super big on social
media and I don't think they really want to be and that's okay.
But we really want to, you know, just continue to establish creative architects as like a
(15:37):
really important show.
I don't know if important is the right word, but maybe show that people should check out,
you know, a show worth your time of checking out in the next, you know, three to six months,
I think.
That's cool.
I mean, Fingers Prostate gets renewed.
It's a really cool show.
I think there's so many more people you could talk to and it's just an interesting topic
(16:01):
to explore.
But do they get involved in vetting your guests or anything like that, suggesting guests and
stuff like that to you?
Not really.
Wow.
So it's like, cool freedom.
That's amazing.
That's really cool.
That's really cool.
And so this is what we would call like a branded podcast, right?
(16:22):
Yeah.
So what does that mean necessarily?
So you said they've given you access to their resources and teams and stuff like that.
What else does it mean?
It also means that I don't own the intellectual property rights for the show.
So this is a part of the Kastos brand.
(16:43):
So I will say that.
And I think you have to be comfortable with that if you're making something for a brand.
That's just out of the gate.
But I don't think that's unusual.
Issa Reyes sold intellectual property rights to HBO for Insecure.
And I think she's done very well off that and she's created more shows with them and
has a really good relationship with HBO.
(17:03):
I don't know if I see myself getting $40 million deals tomorrow, but one can dream.
And the other half of this is that, you know, while, you know, yes, they came to me and,
you know, to create this show, you know, there are things that I did run by them, you know,
like I did the show Craig, like the Craig is the founder of Kastos.
(17:27):
I did show him the guest list.
So it's not like I'm just like blindly, you know, adding people.
We do strategize together on like how to grow the show and how to make it better.
We do talk about, you know, some of the cross promotion stuff that I'm doing with other
podcasters and that I went to podcast festivals and, you know, we spoke about that.
(17:48):
And then, you know, if you listen to every episode, there's always going to be an ad
read for Kastos always.
So it's always about pointing back people back to Kastos because that's essentially
what they want.
Like, hey, you like this show?
Great.
Why don't you put your amazing show on Kastos?
You know, why don't you take advantage of all the amazing features that are making this
show possible?
And I think it's smart, you know what I mean?
(18:08):
Like who better to, you know, promote a podcast brand than a podcaster and to have that kind
of in every episode, I think it's awesome for them and not a huge lift from me.
You know what I mean?
Like I don't feel like that detracts from the quality of the show at all.
I don't feel like it detracts from my creativity and it's kind of awesome being able to do
that every episode and really think out of the box about like how can I craft a video
(18:31):
that points back to an incredible feature that Kastos has, you know?
Yeah, it's kind of, it's like influencer marketing almost, isn't it?
A little bit.
I'm an influencer.
You're an influencer.
Or just influencer.
I mean, but it's also good though because you're using the product and you obviously like
(18:51):
the product.
So that is like a fantastic piece of marketing.
I mean, I am in marketing, so I'm like, I'm just very curious about this and how it all
works.
And are there any other restrictions like that they have said you definitely can't,
you can do anything like you just can't do this one thing?
No, we haven't come across that yet.
(19:14):
Thank Jesus.
No, I think it's been pretty chill and it's been a good partnership.
Yeah, cool.
And do they pay you to do this?
Yes, they do pay me.
That's about as much as I feel comfortable saying they do pay me.
This is interesting.
If someone is trying to potentially do a collaboration, do a branded podcast, they
(19:39):
should ask for payment, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
The goal is to make the brand money.
They're not doing it, they're not coming up with their original show just because it's
fun and giggles like the majority of podcasters are coming up with it because it's an avenue
for marketing for their brand.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So this kind of leads us to the creator economy again, I guess, because as I said, sort of
(20:03):
in my intro, it makes total sense that people exchange their creativity for money because
some people do it just purely for fun and their own personal enjoyment and that's also
great.
But there's nothing wrong with actually making money out of your creativity.
But I've never really heard too much about the creator economy necessarily.
(20:25):
What does that actually mean?
That is a great question and I think many people have different answers.
My definition of the creator economy is middle-class creators, right?
So not your celebrity podcasters on Spotify.
It's like the people like you and me who wake up every day and they're like, "I want this
(20:46):
to be my job."
I think this should be a feasible option for me and this is how I'm exploring making
that work and maybe changing the narrative around the words like gig worker or gig economy
or freelancer to really think about creators as small business owners and entrepreneurs
and really take that element or industry seriously and not just like looking at it as a side
(21:13):
hustle.
So that's kind of what the creator economy for me looks like.
Yeah, because I always get confused about when are you a freelancer and when are you
just a small business?
What is the difference?
It's the same thing.
You still have to have your own...
In Australia, you still have to have your own business registered.
(21:33):
You could be yourself a sole proprietor or something like that, but you're still a business
if you're freelancing.
So what fundamentally, is there a difference do you think in terms of those two terms?
I think if we're splitting hairs here, I think they're both business owners because like
you said here in America is the same thing.
(21:54):
You still have to have an LLC registered in order to accept payment under that name, that
business moniker.
And I think the distinction comes from like solopreneur to entrepreneur when you start
like working with other people essentially.
When you start hiring subcontractors, when you start becoming a subcontractor for other
(22:15):
people, I think that takes on a different connotation because now one of the things that people
associate with the economy is the ability to create jobs.
How can your business create jobs and bring revenue to other people?
And so I think once you start paying other people for their time and their services and
their talents, then you start kind of maybe going into that entrepreneurship realm because
(22:36):
that's a whole other set of paperwork, a whole other set of thinking and demonstrates a certain
level of need.
Because if you could do most of it yourself or all of it yourself, you just would.
So I think it's important to recognize too the growing level of creators that are starting
to work together because the need is there, right?
(22:56):
Bigger projects are there.
Branded shows are there.
Bigger commercial projects are available now.
And maybe they always have been, but maybe they've only been reserved for agencies, bigger
Hollywood level production teams.
But now it's like a girl in Durham, North Carolina who is working on a project and needs
another camera option.
(23:17):
She needs an editor.
She needs a writer.
She needs a social media person.
So I think the level of collaboration and co-working that's going on in the creative
space is really what's bringing topics like the viability of the creator economy to the
forefront.
Yeah.
I think that's a cool topic that you cover on the podcast because it's for creators who
(23:43):
want to make money out of there.
It will change their hobby or their craft into a business.
But not everyone is really business minded and don't know how to do all these things.
You have to wear so many hats when you're trying to get into that space.
So I think it's really cool that your show is even doing that for people, helping bring
(24:07):
people together and share the knowledge around.
Yeah.
And I think that's why the creative education has been sticking out to me because a lot
of this stuff that I learned as a creative business owner and I paid for a course early
on and a lot of things that I see other people learning like when they pay for a ship 30
for 30 cohort or something like that, it's like these are things you probably are not
(24:28):
learning in college, right?
And if you wanted to learn them on your own, it would probably take you a lot longer, a
lot longer to build the community that would give you feedback, a lot longer to build
a social media presence that would allow for creative community development and a lot longer
to find a mentor that would be honest with you about your work and your writing.
(24:51):
And so I think there's something to the extent that like, yeah, it may seem crazy to pay
for a couple hundred dollars, even a couple thousand dollars.
But like, what is that in exchange for the long term sustainability of the business?
What is that in the place of the time it would take if you wanted to learn it all on your
own?
And for people that increasingly are finding college way too expensive here in the United
(25:14):
States, like what is that in place of college degree that would teach you any of the skills
you need in life as a creative business owner?
So I'm not saying like no skills.
Like you learn things in college, don't get me wrong, but maybe not specifically towards
the area of creativity that you want to build a brand or a business around.
So I think about that often and I think that that's something really awesome that's come
(25:35):
out of the show.
Yes.
Are you finding that you're learning a lot of this stuff as well?
Like while you're having these conversations?
Oh yeah.
I mean, like, I think there's something to the fact, especially now I did in People Can
Roast Me For This in the comments.
I don't care.
But I did take advantage of like thinking big.
(25:58):
You know what I mean?
Like I'm always like one of those people that's like, if I have an opportunity to dream big,
I'm going to dream big.
Like why not get some of the biggest creators and biggest creator tech companies that I
can, right?
So I was able to talk to Jen from Passion Fruit about, you know, her idea around sponsorship
and like raising money for your show.
And Jay Klaus around like his, you know, thinking around creative community development and
(26:20):
why he created a paid community and what that looks like.
And even, you know, Justin Moore of the Creator Wizard, who's like an incredible, yeah, some
brand sponsorships, but also like how to build a business that like doesn't scare the
hell out of you, but also allows you to like make money and do it well and do it in a way
that allows you to have capacity to still like spend time with your family and like,
(26:44):
you know, create the things that you care about.
So I think like all those things, and there's many more.
I love all the people on my show.
I just put that they're all awesome.
You know, Jeremy ends as well.
He did the podcast marketing Academy.
Super awesome course.
So to be able to talk to people like that, you know, people that are, you know, have
been in the game for a while, have done it, you know, at scale and are now kind of like
(27:05):
packaging something.
Like how do you even package something like that?
If I were to get to a place where I'm like, I want to make a paid course on branded communities
or branded, you know, podcasts, like how are I even packaged that?
How would I do that in a way that's sustainable and that like makes it valuable for people?
So I think it's just been an all around good experience being able to learn from all these
folks and really be able to talk with them for, you know, a couple of minutes.
(27:28):
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's cool.
It certainly is.
It's a great opportunity when you have a podcast, you've got this really cool opportunity and
a legitimate reason to reach out to people who just spark your curiosity or you want
to learn from.
So yeah, go take all advantages of that for sure.
And also about like thinking big, I think that's great.
I know if I was like, you know, dream big and you can do it, but whatever, you know,
(27:54):
if you don't, like if you don't actually even cast your mind to that, you'll never actually
do it, right?
I think it's awesome that you are, you know, you're talented enough that you've been approached
to do this.
You're having great conversations that you're learning from and you're also thinking about
how you can apply this in the future.
That's such a cool win, win, win, win, win all over the place.
(28:15):
This wins for everyone right now.
I'm feeling sure.
Yeah.
And one thing I will say, because I don't want people thinking like they're going to
go on the show and they're going to hear me just talking about what I'm interested in.
Like I also try to make sure that anybody listening, even if they're not a video creator,
if they're not a podcaster, maybe they're a writer, you know, maybe they're a designer,
an illustrator, an animator, a photographer, you know, that they're going to get something
(28:39):
out of it.
And that's also something that, you know, I would caution people if you're making a
branded show, especially an interview based show, like there is certain, there's a certain
level of selfishness that you can have, but also like, please keep in mind your audience.
You know, like it shouldn't feel like people are listening into a one on one coaching call
on some level, like be mindful of like what anybody who's not in your position would want
(29:02):
to know or want to ask and be interested in to learn as well.
Yeah.
I think that's why it's so good that you have such a firm focus on what the topic of the
podcast is about is that, you know, as long as you're always keeping that in mind, then
your conversations are going to be good.
Yeah.
(29:23):
Is it much crossover between your creative architects and Honey and Hustle?
What do you mean by crossover?
Do you ever get guests across to one or learnings from one to the other or either you do keep
the two very much separate?
Um, I haven't brought on any guests from Honey and Hustle on creative architects.
(29:44):
And in terms of learning, I would say yes.
Just in terms of, you know, me being a creator, like thinking rationally about how I could
apply, you know, some of the learnings to what I'm doing with Honey and Hustle, because
that's still self-funded unless anybody watching or listening to this wants to, you know, sponsor
your girl.
Um, but, um, so I think some of it, you know, some things that I've had been considering
(30:08):
too is like, you know, if I'm going to do a community, what is that going to look like?
You know, because for me, I always wanted to be accessible.
So what would a free and a paid community look like?
Can I have it in the same place?
What are some of the things that I would want people on their free tier to have access to?
Um, and how can I make it sustainable?
(30:30):
Right?
Because a lot of people, let's say Patreon, a lot of people start Patreon's and then they
quit because even though they're making money, they can't sustain the amount of content that
they promised.
And so it just becomes like another job.
And so I think about that as well.
Um, and, you know, for example, um, a paid course, you know, a creative course, you know,
(30:51):
if I were to create something like that, can I be realistic about how long it takes?
Do I really have the capacity to do that right now?
If I am going to do it, what's the best way for me to do that?
Where should I host it?
What are some things I should offer?
How should I structure one-on-one time with, you know, the people that buy the course?
How can I make it something that grows and gets enhanced every year?
(31:12):
Um, you know, and how can I meet the needs of people who maybe are willing to pay a little
bit more for more one-on-one access to me versus people who are like, I'm happy just
doing it self-paced.
Like I don't really care.
Like I just need to learn, you know, so I think about that too.
And that's something that, you know, maybe in the next six months, you might see come into
fruition in my own life.
But those are kind of some of the things that, you know, I've definitely thought about and
(31:35):
it's been nice to explore on Creative Architects.
Will there be cross-over in the future?
I don't know.
We'll have to wait and see, you know.
Yeah.
I mean, that's so cool.
I love the fact that you're doing all this thinking about it, but also, yeah, focusing
on the sustainability because you said you mentioned before when you ended up outsourcing
(31:56):
your editing to someone.
It was such a relief.
And I think that is one way that we can help, you know, ensure that what we're doing is
sustainable is acknowledging that we have our own limits and we can't do everything
and still have our regular jobs and a social life and our family.
And it's where like, it's so many hats, something's got to give along the way.
(32:21):
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah, definitely.
And let's quickly, before we go, I would love to talk a little bit about your own creativity
because you're a videographer and you make documentaries.
And tell me about that.
How did you get into that?
(32:42):
I got into it like super organically and selfishly.
I started, I picked up a camera after I went to Spain.
I did a study abroad trip in Spain in 2014.
So coming up on 10 years now, the anniversary of that, which is crazy.
But I picked up a camera after that because after I got back from Spain, my phone factory
reset itself so I had no pictures from that original trip.
(33:04):
And I was like, never again, I paid all this money I spent all this time, I had so many
great memories and now I have nothing to show for it.
And I was like, I'm never going to let that happen again.
I've got the bug, like I want to travel more, I want to document my life.
And so I worked all summer and I spent my check on a camera, which is not sound financial
advice, but creatively, I didn't care.
(33:25):
I just wanted a camera to have around with me.
And that's kind of how it got started.
And then maybe my senior year of college, my friends were like, yo, Angela, you can make
some money.
Like you could, you know, start selling graduation portrait sessions and stuff like that.
And I was like, I don't know if people will pay for it.
But they did.
And that was kind of how things got going a little bit.
(33:46):
I did my first wedding in September of 2016.
And for me at the time, still being a fairly novice photographer, I was like, oh, this
is like the pinnacle, you know, because when weddings, you can't miss, you know, they
can't repeat that day just because you missed a shot.
So I started taking myself a little more seriously.
And I started the first iteration of the business then.
(34:08):
And I just kind of kept growing.
And once I graduated from college and started thinking like, okay, what do I actually want
to do with my life?
Like, how do I actually want to make money?
And I started thinking like, and seeing that there were just so few people that did photo
and video because we were still kind of on the early ages of video and DSLR being accessible,
(34:28):
right, for like everyday people who couldn't afford a $10,000 cinema camera.
So I started thinking seriously about like, okay, if I could do photo and video really
well, I could name my own price.
And so that's what I did.
I just started learning and growing as kind of a hybrid photo and video person.
I still am a hybrid photo and video person, but now I kind of keep photography to myself.
(34:52):
I actually just splurged on this little like everyday camera.
For people who are listening and not watching, I just showed like this overpriced camera
that I paid for.
But anyways, yeah, I just feel like it's so essential, especially now, you know, you
got to think, I started that company in 2016, and now it's 2023.
(35:13):
So it's been over seven years.
And there's a part of me that's always just like going back to like, I just want to document
my life, you know, I just want to document the cool things that are going on.
And they're important to me, like my family, my friends, the place that I live, the places
that I get to go and bless to go for work and for pleasure.
And I'm largely able to keep photography for me, you know, I get to photograph on my
(35:36):
own terms, I get to hang out with people in my own terms.
And I think there's always some element of me that will always want that.
And even now, you know, I love creating at the level that I'm creating at, it feels great.
But there's also, again, like even in my career now, it's less about like, okay, how can I
make the most money being a hybrid photographer, filmmaker, or filmmaker podcast, but more
(35:59):
about like, how can I make money doing the things that I care about, right, and doing
things that are interesting to me.
And so I think that creative architects, Honey and Hustle, all the documentaries that I'm
working on are wonderful examples of that maturation over time.
That's cool.
And it all makes sense why you have a video podcast now.
Oh, no, that is so cool.
(36:22):
I absolutely just loved picking your brain stay.
Thank you so much for joining me.
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you for having me.
This was fun.
Yeah.
And I also want to thank everyone who's doing Creativity (36:30):
Uncovered today.
I really hope that this episode has inspired you to just do more of what you love.
It obviously is working.
And as always, I hope that it helps you, someone creative to use the next time that you need
(37:09):
it.
If you've made it this far, a huge thank you for your support and tuning into today's
episode.
Creativity (37:24):
Uncovered has been lovingly recorded on the land of the Kabi Kabi people, and
we pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging.
This podcast has been produced by my amazing team here at Crisp Communications and the
music you just heard was composed by James Gatling.
If you liked this episode, please do share it around and help us on our mission to unlock
(37:50):
more creativity in this world.
You can also hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any new episode releases.
Thank you for watching.
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