November 13, 2023 • 37 mins
Often as creatives, we take our experience for granted and undervalue our skills. This often comes across when we price our work.
Enter: The Pricing Queen, aka Jasmine Designs.
Jaz is a graphic designer who has created a name for herself in coaching creatives how to know their value, and charge their worth. Basically, she is being the person she needed when she first started her business.
Jaz also shares her pricing calculator which is a great first-step for creatives just starting out in the freelancing space. Grab it here: www.creativebusinesskitchen.com/uncovered
Happy listening!
xo Abi
P.S. For more information about this episode and our guest, head to: www.crispcomms.co/podcast-episodes/valuing-your-creative-worth-lessons-from-the-pricing-queen
Creativity: Uncovered is lovingly edited by the team at Crisp Communications.
Creativity: Uncovered is a registered Australian Trade Mark.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hello and welcome to Creativity (00:00):
Uncovered. My name is Abi Gatling and I'm on a journey
to uncover how everyday people find inspiration, get inventive and open their imagination.
(00:20):
Basically I want to discover how people find creative solutions and then how they use them
at home, work, play and everything in between. And my goal for this podcast is that by the
end of it you'll be armed with a whole suite of tried and tested ways to summon creativity
the next time that you need it.
(00:44):
And today I'm speaking with Jazz, aka Jasmine Designs, aka the Pricing Queen. And Jasmine
is someone who I actually saw speaking at a design summit a couple of months ago and
I was captivated and I just knew that I had to reach out. So I am so pleased that she's
(01:05):
joined me today. You're welcome, Jazz.
Thank you so much for having me. I am absolutely honoured in the fact that you've seen me and
you've come back from the slice is actually pretty exciting. I really, I love doing summits
because we get to meet and interact with so many different people from all over the world
(01:25):
and you never know what you're in for when you join a summit but you always walk away
with something extra. And I love that this is one of the byproducts of that.
Yeah, it was good. And it was a great free online summit too, which means it's accessible
to anyone and so many great nuggets of wisdom came out that day. It was absolutely fantastic.
(01:49):
So yeah, so as I mentioned, I saw you present at the saying and you're known as the Pricing
Queen and that sort of was the nature of your presentation that day. So I'd love to talk
to you about that. But before we get there, you know, I followed you on socials immediately
after that summit and loving all the stuff that I'm seeing. But the catalyst for me to
(02:13):
reach out to you and invite you on the podcast because was that you mentioned something about
your view of creativity and what that is. And that it's that it's your creative if you
solve a problem in a non-traditional way. And I love that. It's basically the premise
(02:35):
of this entire podcast. So I want to talk to you about that. I mean, how did you come
across that? When did you realize that's what creativity is? Let's start there. Yeah,
I love that we're starting here. So yeah, creativity is anyone who is a creative. And
I feel like this is such a common thing of like people going, Oh, no, I'm not creative
(02:56):
or I'm not a creative. If you solve a problem in a non-traditional way, you are a creative.
You are approaching something that is a problem in a non-123 linear way. I actually came across
that sentence and unfortunately it was that one of those ones are like, Oh my God, that
(03:17):
just came out of my mouth. Cool, let's let's roll with it. It was actually on my first
big podcast on the Jasmine Star show. And she's just like, Oh, what are we talking about
with being a creative and what's it like? And I'm like, well, a creative is just someone
who solves a problem in a non-traditional way. And she just like lost her mind in that moment.
(03:38):
I'm like, Oh, okay, nugget, got it. Store that away for later. Save that. Yeah, because
and also it doesn't matter if your creativity manifests with a paintbrush and or a pen or
a bomber spreadsheet, it's the solving of the problem in a different way. I think the
reason why it resonated for me so much in my own creative practice, but I feel like it's
(04:01):
resonated for quite a few quite a few people is that we often see the problem solving process
is quite linear, is quite regimented. And it's because it's what we're taught in school.
Like if you have a problem, you solve it this way. That's it. But creativity is searching
for the alternate solutions and seeing the possibility of creating something that didn't
(04:29):
exist yesterday that helps someone tomorrow is a really exciting process. So when we're
faced with these situations where we're like, Oh, we're not solving it in the right way.
It actually is that we're just solving it in a different way that is unexpected and
unexpected for what we're going in for. As in, we sit there and kind of go, I don't know
(04:50):
if this is going to work and being comfortable if it doesn't and knowing that we're not failing
with collecting data to solve it the next time in a different way that takes that data
into into effect. Like failure is the perfect blueprint for success because it shows you
where you don't need to go again. It find and you find these situations where you're
(05:13):
like, Oh, I know that last time that I painted a piece of wood, it cracked or it sucked up
the paint really a lot. So that was my failure of not justifying the right kind of paint
or the right way to do it before. But now I know how to succeed so much easier because
I've tested it with my creative problem solving skills. It's it's just finding the joy in
(05:38):
failure and using it to create success. Love that. I think that is so great because
people have such narrow views of what creativity is. But if you consider it to be that way
where it's an open mind, it's a willingness to be inventive, try, test, fail, then anyone
(06:03):
can be creative. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it doesn't even matter how it shows up
as well. Because I actually think that we are all in some way, shape or form a little
bit creative. We all have something that we get to be a bit creative with, whether it
be that you are a career creative, so designer creative in that space or a writer or whatever
(06:28):
the creative outlet that you've used to build your career. But it also could be as far as
anyone who does anything in a different way. So, you know, mums who are who are putting
together a creative solution to solve the hunger of the children who are crying and
screaming and kicking in and all that. It might be that she packs their lunch in a different
(06:51):
way that makes them smile. That's being creative. It might be that, you know, my dad is a butcher
and he gets creative with the ways that he can solve other people's family hungers by
using the different parts of the meat to create a different dish or making it easier. My mom
then takes some of that meat and makes it into a pre-cooked meal. So, solving a different
(07:15):
problem for a busy mom or a busy family that can't cook that night. We're all given the
opportunity to approach different situations in different ways. And the only way that we
can find new answers is using that creativity that is given to us.
Yes. Yeah, totally. So, do you think that, do you think there's the capacity to be creative
(07:38):
in any role, any career path?
I think there's different elements or different ways you can be creative. I think that there
are some that don't nurture or foster that as much because it's not about finding new
and innovative ways. It's about making sure that it works well. So, for instance, my partner
(08:04):
works in IT and sometimes there is the need to be creative to find the solution to certain
problems. But other times it's just about business as usual or making it so that everyone
knows about a certain thing happening. So, if you're finding that you're lacking creativity
in your job, it might be that you're not looking hard enough or you're trying to be too creative
(08:31):
with the things that don't need it.
It's funny because I spent my career trying to find all these ways to be creative in it
just to keep myself interested. But I actually had a guest on a couple of weeks ago who said,
my job is not the place for me to be creative. My job is I do my job and I do it well and
(08:55):
I get out and I have the rest of my life is my time when I can play around with my creativity.
I was like, "That's so interesting that I was trying to do it one way, he's trying to
do it another way." But that's the thing, it's a whole spectrum, isn't it?
It's making it work for your brain as well because it might be that your brain needs
creativity to stay on task so you might find creativity in the process rather than in the
(09:19):
execution. When I was working as a designer, so before I went full-time freelance back
872 years ago, it feels like, but it was only seven or eight, I was working at Rolex Australia.
I was processing between 100 and 150 ads per month. I was literally speaking to publications,
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finding out what the specs were, resizing the pre-done ads to that size and sending them
off. That's not a creative process. That's not a creative outlet. It's literally just
resize and send 100 to 150 times. And also, they had it all set up on Microsoft Access
and I'm pretty sure they still do. It hurts my heart a little bit. Yeah, I know. Let's
(10:03):
go old school. But it was then finding the creative outlets in some of the events. It
was then recognizing that it was only three days a week and I could put all of that extra
creative energy into my business because that was my gap year transition from full-time
working as a designer into full-time freelance was a year working three days a week at Rolex
(10:25):
Australia. And it was definitely, I learnt the resilience and the processing and the
power that comes from being able to do something in a really systematic way because it stops
the creative overthinking happen as well because as great as creativity is, it sometimes can
(10:46):
get in the way of actually doing the thing. And so we want it to be like, "Oh, but I want
it to be more creative. What if it could be better? What if it could be better? What if
it could be better?" And it's like, "Okay, it could. Doesn't need to be."
Yeah, you need to actually stop.
Or doesn't need to just exist so that we can move on. So it's about finding the ways that
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creativity works for you in your own system and in your own brain.
And so what draws you to creativity?
I love a problem. I love a problem. I love to find ways to solve problems that other
people don't think of because I think the thing we do is we think everyone thinks like
(11:32):
us. But they don't. I can almost 100% guarantee you that there are people in your world that
don't understand how you solve problems or how you do what you do. We think that what
we do is simple and easy, but it is because we've worked hard to make it simple and easy.
(11:54):
I really enjoy problem solving process because I get to use both sides of my brain, the logical
side of breaking something down into systematic process-based steps. And then I get to use
the creativity side of things to kind of go, "Okay, how can we do this better? How can
we do this differently? What experiences both micro and macro do I have to be able to bring
(12:22):
to the table to solve this problem?" So micro might be little tests that I've done or similar
experiences. Macro might be my experience or wealth of knowledge over the time that
I've been a designer. So it's working out what experience can you bring to the table
to solve that particular problem knowing that it won't be the last time you solve this
(12:43):
problem? Yeah, definitely. And that's kind of a pretty sweet say way into talking about
pricing because that's what your alter ego is, the pricing queen, am I right? She is.
She is definitely the alter ego. She came to a fruition. I remember sitting there really
(13:08):
really kind of trying to get past the ego that comes from stepping into that because
I didn't want to... I didn't want to piss anyone off by owning that, by creating a space
(13:30):
where I became that. And I started thinking about the other queens that we know. So in
my creative industry, at the time, there was the passion project queen, Miss Lauren Holm,
and she's freaking fantastic. She's now since gone on to do a... Of all things, a culinary...
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She's gone to culinary school, and so she's using her creativity for cooking now, which
is really cool, but she's like a muralist. And she was the prolific creator of online
courses and murals and passion projects that then get you paid. And she was just incredible.
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And then I started thinking about, okay, we'll further out from that. What other queens do
we know other than the wonderful gay community? But the other queens that we know is Miss
Yonsei. And so Beyonce actually has that she is Beyonce in normal life, but she is Sasha
Fierce on stage. And so she's not necessarily Sasha Fierce to everyone. She is Sasha Fierce
(14:40):
to herself so that she can show up as that person because it feels like, like we said,
the alter ego. And so I kind of went, well, I don't feel like it is such a bad thing to
own that because the more I own that, it's kind of like throwing a flag, like throwing
(15:01):
up a flag and saying, hey, guys, you want help with pricing? I'm going to be the person
that I needed when I was back where you were. If you need me, I'm here. If you don't, that's
okay. But I'll still be here. And so when you're ready, let's work together and find
ways to make more money because we as creatives hate talking about money. So I'm going to
(15:25):
try and start the conversation to make you feel more comfortable so that you can make
more money.
Yeah. Yeah. It's a nice delineation between your design based work and your pricing based
work. I think that's great. And I think the link for me from what you said previously
(15:45):
into your pricing was that we, I think, we always think that what we know about and what
our skills are, are just taken for granted. And we're like, oh yeah, everyone can do this.
But we have done that. 10,000 hours, we've practiced, we've honed, and sure it may take
us way less time to do a creative project than someone who doesn't do it every day.
(16:09):
But that saw that then plays into our minds when we are trying to price our work because
you quite often try and default into hourly pricing because you're like, oh, well, you
know, it only takes me 15 minutes. But actually, they only takes me 15 minutes because I've
done it for five, five years. You've taken me two hours. So I feel like that was like
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a really interesting thing you said before, leading into this pricing thing. And so now
you really do help people with careers with pricing, setting a price and a value to their
products and their services.
I love it. It's honestly become such an incredible outlet for me to be able to help other freelancers
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and designers and creatives. Like, it comes back to the whole how we started this conversation
of like a creative is someone who does something different, who solves the problem in a non-traditional
way. I've had everything from your traditional social media managers, brand designers, photographers,
copywriters, all the way through to product owners. I had a baby nappy's cover manufacturer.
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Like she just does them like she hand creates them. So she's a hand crafter. I have just
had someone sign up to my masterclass that's happening tomorrow who's a dancer and a choreographer.
So I've been really quite surprised and wonderfully so on the different ways that I can help that
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I didn't expect. And by doing that, I'm actually helping someone else make more money. And that's
so exciting. That's so special.
Yes. And you said that this is you're doing now what you needed back then. So what were
you did you in the beginning struggle with setting your pricing?
Absolutely. I absolutely struggled with pricing because I think I fell into the like the common
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traps that we all have fallen into times where we want to we want to make sure that our price
is what we believe is fair and reasonable for the client. We avoid confrontation by
trying to make the perfect price that fits exactly what they are going to be willing
(18:33):
to pay based on the information we have, based on the ideas that we have of what is acceptable
to pay. I spent so much time trying to be the right price for everyone. And I discovered
over the course of 15 years being a designer, being a freelancer for the last 10 of those
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is that there's no such thing as the perfect price. You need to look after your own prices
and set the prices based on the future of your business, not your clients budgets. Because
if you set it based on the clients budgets, you're going to be in a position where you
don't exist in the future because you've only been able to serve at a certain level
(19:20):
for everyone. So I think a lot of the time we go, okay, I need to set the perfect price
for as many people as possible so that everyone can afford me and I don't have to be giving
that whole, I'm sorry, but you can't afford me conversation because we don't want to be
confrontational. We don't want to disappoint someone. We don't want to let them down. And
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we take that responsibility on. We make it that we are responsible for whether they say
yes or no, when we're not, we're not responsible for that. We are only responsible for making
sure that the price matches the way that we can serve and we can show up and we can help
(20:06):
them so that we exist in the future to be able to help them. I spent so long kind of
like second guessing and going, does anyone know how to price? Does anyone know? Like,
I've got the screenshots of the Facebook posts that I put up of like, Jasmine is unsure how
to price this job like cringe like super cringe. When we used to do the Facebook groups, we
(20:30):
used to do the groups of like this person is feeling content. But I spent so long trying
to do that, but it had to become a process and was necessary for me to understand what
that looked like so that I didn't fall into the quote unquote trap of no longer existing
(20:56):
in the future because I tried to make my prices suitable for everyone.
Yeah. It's amazing how we the default is to undervalue our creativity and to undervalue
our skills and our prices reflect that. It's just amazing. Like, why is that the default
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for us? It's the default because we feel guilty. We feel guilty that we enjoy our job
and they don't, assumptively, assumptively, because if they're coming to us to hire us,
they've asked for help. So how can we deny them of that? How can we deny them of that
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by charging them? How can we deny them of that by charging too much quote unquote too much?
How can we be so selfish as to hold back our creativity by putting a price tag on it? My
friend, my listener in your ears, do you hear how ridiculous that sounds? Like, it sounds
(22:02):
so ridiculous when you articulate it, but it is definitely the thoughts and feelings
that come into our brains when we're having to put a price tag on the access to our genius.
The fact of the matter is, creativity is a luxury item. It is a hill I will die on.
Creativity is a luxury item. You can just as easily sell anything with black and white
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printed piece of paper, but the creativity is the color that makes someone look, that
makes someone buy, that makes someone interested and convinces them that they need it in their
life. You can easily print out on a piece of paper with Times New Roman or Comic Sans,
if you really want to, that you've got a product for sale. But if that flyer is designed by
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a creative who is helping you solve a problem, sales, but also promotions, marketing, brand
awareness, conversation starter, but also facilitating solving a problem for their customers
too, that's a luxury item. So it needs to be charged for and priced accordingly.
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It's funny, isn't it? Because I think as you go on throughout your business, you get more
and more comfortable having those money conversations and more and more confident that you're adding
a huge amount of value through your creativity and your service delivery. But there's always
those times where you've gone through the quoting process and someone's like, "Oh, don't worry,
(23:38):
I can just do it on Fiverr anyway." Or I can do it on Canva. "Bye!"
Yeah, and then you go, "Oh, God, that's so sad." But then afterwards, I'm like, "Well,
actually, they probably wouldn't have been a great client anyway." If that's how much
they value what I'm bringing to the table, they probably were not the right fit anyway.
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If that's how much they value you when you're currently free, because before they've paid,
they haven't bought anything. So if that's how much they're valuing you at free, they're
not going to value you when you charge. So true. And it sucks. And it sucks because we
can sit there and see the potential and see the abilities that we have that they are missing
(24:21):
out on. And we're like, "Wow, that sucks for you." Like, that sucks for them to not be
able to access the genius that you can bring to the table. But that's a them problem.
That's a them problem.
And it feels uncomfortable the first time and a little less comfortable, a little more
comfortable the next time, and a little more comfortable the next time. I won't say that
(24:44):
I'm completely comfortable when people say no to me now or tell me that I'm too expensive.
Because I get told I'm too expensive probably on a weekly basis, generally. But I also
have situations like this morning when someone signed a $14,000 branding package.
Good girl.
(25:05):
I laughed so hard because I'm like, "What do you mean you said yes? What? Okay, cool.
We're good. I'm excited because I know how exactly I'm going to solve this problem."
But it didn't always, it wasn't always like that. And it all comes down to confidence,
not just my confidence in the way that I communicate with my customers and my clients,
(25:26):
not my confidence in my abilities, my confidence in the way that I know I can solve the problem
and if I didn't this time, I will next time.
And also the confidence that I need to instill in my customers and clients to know that I
can solve it. Like every single investment that any person makes in either someone else's
(25:51):
product or service comes with an inherent risk. And so it is my responsibility in those
first few interactions with my customers, whether they be directly with me or with my
website, with my socials, with my content, with my emails, however they've interacted
with me before, it's my responsibility to show them that I'm qualified, to reduce their
(26:14):
risk factor, to make them feel more comfortable that if they spend money on me, I will help
them make it back and probably double it, if not triple it. And finding that that's really
important because those people who are on Fiverr and who are on those cheaper experience websites
(26:41):
are riskier. And I've seen the risk play out. I've seen friends of mine who have gone with
a logo from Fiverr only to be sued two years later because they stole it from another designer.
I've seen friends of mine create an entire branding package and go to a trade market
and realise they don't have ownership. I've seen them have to re-brand three years in
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because they've found or discovered that either the logo doesn't suit their business
anymore, it hasn't grown with their business, or it was improperly acquired, whether through
a stock shot or through a different way. And now they have to re-spend, but they are in
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no way, shape or form, going to spend the same amount because hell no, are they going
through that again? So they will invest in something that is a higher option. And so
if we sit there and we go, "Oh, well, everyone else on Fiverr is..." and not to be Fiverr
bashing, look, it has its merits, it has its relevance, it needs to be there so that we
don't get the clients that expect that from us. But when we set our prices the same as
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those kind of higher risk options, we put a flag in front of our store saying we're
just as risky. You can expect the same from us. Why would someone buy that?
It's funny because I think part of what you're saying is us placing value on ourselves, but
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it's also having a conversation with the businesses and saying, "You need to place
value on yourself as well that you deserve this creative service at this price point."
Sure, you can go to Fiverr, but don't you think your business deserves more than that?
Yeah, yeah. That's wild. I always do warn people of people. I don't quite often get
(28:48):
people going off to Fiverr. When I first started, there was always the punters, but I was going,
"Of course, do that. Just please make sure that if you want a trademark in the future,
you may not be able to do that." Yeah, and that's a great practice to adopt because
you're not only saying not a problem and being gracious about it and going, "Look,
(29:10):
not a problem. I'm probably not the right one for you. That's not a problem."
But when you do that, please look out for these things because I would hate for—and
you are communicating their best interests at heart even though you're parting ways.
And sometimes those come back. And sometimes they come back to you when they have earned it,
when they have earned that level to access that. A lot of the time when we do discount, lower our
(29:36):
prices, try and make sure that we are the lower cheaper option, people who believe they have
achieved a higher level will say no. And then we devalue that for them. And that's not fair.
That's not fair for us and that's not fair for them. It's an opportunity for you to go, "Well,
I don't want to do this for less. I don't want to have to rush the process so that I stay under
(30:03):
budget. I don't want to have to cut corners in my own processes so that I fit within the dollars
that have been allocated because there's nothing worse than looking at the budget and going,
"I can't do more than this. Otherwise, I'm losing out on money." And it sucks.
Stop trying to do a logo in 10 hours. I'm sorry, but a logo takes time and takes effort and takes
(30:31):
development and takes energy. And if you're rushing that process so that you can stay cheap,
that's not going to get you far. And I think I give you articulate that back to the client,
saying, "It is this expensive because we don't want to rush it." What are they going to say?
"Oh, yeah. No, I think you should rush it." That's where you would... Yeah,
(30:57):
client education has to be part of your processes. And a good client education process, and I'm not
just talking about, "This is how I do my work. This is how this happens. And then I'll take it
into the sketch phase, and then I'll put it into this, and then I'll put it into Illustrator.
I'm going to use vectors. They don't give two shits about it. Sorry." But what they want to do is
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know the process from their side of things so that they've got that trust factor. And so then
you would say and articulate to them, "Look, we actually really make sure that the colors that
we're using are specifically chosen not only to articulate what we're trying to do as a brand,
but also fit into things that we know are important." For example, contrast guidelines for
(31:43):
websites. I've seen so many times where people put together a color spectrum for a brand,
and you then translate it into the rest of it, and it's like, "Oh, yeah, that doesn't work."
Like everything is the wrong contrast, or it doesn't follow guidelines. Anyone who doesn't
quite understand. So contrast guidelines, it's WCAG, I think it is,
(32:05):
where it needs to reach a certain ratio on your website to be able to be readable. And if it's
under that ratio, it's then non-compliant and makes it so that it's actually really difficult for
anyone to read whether you are of standard reading capabilities or not. And it infuriates me because
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when we cheapen the work, we have to cut corners, and therefore we might not check that. We might
use a font that actually can't be used in commercial experiences, or we might choose
colors that can't be reproduced in print. Like there's colors that can't be reproduced in print,
(32:51):
but can only be reproduced in digital and vice versa. So it's our responsibility as the creative
professional to make sure that those are followed. But if a client comes back to you and says, "Oh,
why is this so expensive?" It's because you have to do those processes to be the most professional,
to be able to charge professional rates. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's that whole thing that you don't
(33:13):
know what you don't know, and then you find out all the things you don't know, and you're like,
"Oh, shit." And they're so overwhelming. So you sort of need to give your clients a little indication
of all these things you're taking into consideration, which justifies all of that stuff.
Mm-hmm. Oh, wow. There's so much, there's so much rich content here, jazz. And you,
you're always helping people with this, with webinars and all types of things.
(33:38):
Tell me, if people want to know how to better value their creative services, what can they do?
How can they work with you? Yeah, for sure. So I know that we've talked a little bit about
hourly rates and how they are not necessarily the best way to do business, but you do need
to know the value of your time to be able to justify running your business. So I actually
(34:01):
have a pricing calculator, a free pricing calculator that helps you calculate the exact rate that you
need to be putting on your time. It starts with the salary that you would be making, adds in the
expenses of running a business, because you didn't have to worry about that when you're employed.
You do need to worry about it now. And then reallocates the hours that you have that you can
actually bill for. So it starts with the salary, add in the expenses, and then divide by the time
(34:24):
that you actually can charge for. And this calculator actually pops out the exact hourly
rate that you need to be using in your calculations to then start working out what to charge your
clients. So anyone on the podcast gets a free pricing calculator. So if you head to creativebusinesskitchen.com/uncovered,
(34:46):
you can access that pricing calculator to get started in that process. Otherwise, come
join me on Instagram because I am literally always there and I serve so many different
food for thought, interesting takes on different ways of being a creative, as well as I am a bit
of a freebie guide giver. I love to give information. And then I do a monthly masterclass as well.
(35:10):
So come on over. I'm your pricing queen on Instagram. Yeah, definitely, definitely worth it. And I'll
pop the link to the pricing calculator and your socials and everything like that in our show notes.
So don't feel like you guys have to remember all that right now. I can practically hear people
frantically writing that down. But do you thank so much, Jazz, for joining me today. That was
(35:35):
a fantastic conversation and there is so much more to talk about. But yeah, do head on to her
socials to find out all everything you need to know about pricing and making sure you value yourself.
And I also want to say thank you to everyone who has tuned into Creativity (35:49):
Uncovered today.
I really do hope that this episode has inspired you to start to realize your true value as a creative
and always that it helps summon your creativity the next time that you need it.
[Music]
(36:33):
If you've made it this far, a huge thank you for your support and tuning into today's episode.
Creativity (36:39):
Uncovered has been lovingly recorded on the land of the Kabi Kabi people and we pay our
respect to elders past, present and emerging. This podcast has been produced by my amazing team here
at Crisp Communications and the music you just heard was composed by James Gatling. If you liked
(37:01):
this episode, please do share it around and help us on our mission to unlock more creativity in
this world. You can also hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any new episode releases.
Uncovered. My name is Abi Gatling and I'm on a journey
to uncover how everyday people find inspiration, get inventive and open their imagination.
(00:20):
Basically I want to discover how people find creative solutions and then how they use them
at home, work, play and everything in between. And my goal for this podcast is that by the
end of it you'll be armed with a whole suite of tried and tested ways to summon creativity
the next time that you need it.
(00:44):
And today I'm speaking with Jazz, aka Jasmine Designs, aka the Pricing Queen. And Jasmine
is someone who I actually saw speaking at a design summit a couple of months ago and
I was captivated and I just knew that I had to reach out. So I am so pleased that she's
(01:05):
joined me today. You're welcome, Jazz.
Thank you so much for having me. I am absolutely honoured in the fact that you've seen me and
you've come back from the slice is actually pretty exciting. I really, I love doing summits
because we get to meet and interact with so many different people from all over the world
(01:25):
and you never know what you're in for when you join a summit but you always walk away
with something extra. And I love that this is one of the byproducts of that.
Yeah, it was good. And it was a great free online summit too, which means it's accessible
to anyone and so many great nuggets of wisdom came out that day. It was absolutely fantastic.
(01:49):
So yeah, so as I mentioned, I saw you present at the saying and you're known as the Pricing
Queen and that sort of was the nature of your presentation that day. So I'd love to talk
to you about that. But before we get there, you know, I followed you on socials immediately
after that summit and loving all the stuff that I'm seeing. But the catalyst for me to
(02:13):
reach out to you and invite you on the podcast because was that you mentioned something about
your view of creativity and what that is. And that it's that it's your creative if you
solve a problem in a non-traditional way. And I love that. It's basically the premise
(02:35):
of this entire podcast. So I want to talk to you about that. I mean, how did you come
across that? When did you realize that's what creativity is? Let's start there. Yeah,
I love that we're starting here. So yeah, creativity is anyone who is a creative. And
I feel like this is such a common thing of like people going, Oh, no, I'm not creative
(02:56):
or I'm not a creative. If you solve a problem in a non-traditional way, you are a creative.
You are approaching something that is a problem in a non-123 linear way. I actually came across
that sentence and unfortunately it was that one of those ones are like, Oh my God, that
(03:17):
just came out of my mouth. Cool, let's let's roll with it. It was actually on my first
big podcast on the Jasmine Star show. And she's just like, Oh, what are we talking about
with being a creative and what's it like? And I'm like, well, a creative is just someone
who solves a problem in a non-traditional way. And she just like lost her mind in that moment.
(03:38):
I'm like, Oh, okay, nugget, got it. Store that away for later. Save that. Yeah, because
and also it doesn't matter if your creativity manifests with a paintbrush and or a pen or
a bomber spreadsheet, it's the solving of the problem in a different way. I think the
reason why it resonated for me so much in my own creative practice, but I feel like it's
(04:01):
resonated for quite a few quite a few people is that we often see the problem solving process
is quite linear, is quite regimented. And it's because it's what we're taught in school.
Like if you have a problem, you solve it this way. That's it. But creativity is searching
for the alternate solutions and seeing the possibility of creating something that didn't
(04:29):
exist yesterday that helps someone tomorrow is a really exciting process. So when we're
faced with these situations where we're like, Oh, we're not solving it in the right way.
It actually is that we're just solving it in a different way that is unexpected and
unexpected for what we're going in for. As in, we sit there and kind of go, I don't know
(04:50):
if this is going to work and being comfortable if it doesn't and knowing that we're not failing
with collecting data to solve it the next time in a different way that takes that data
into into effect. Like failure is the perfect blueprint for success because it shows you
where you don't need to go again. It find and you find these situations where you're
(05:13):
like, Oh, I know that last time that I painted a piece of wood, it cracked or it sucked up
the paint really a lot. So that was my failure of not justifying the right kind of paint
or the right way to do it before. But now I know how to succeed so much easier because
I've tested it with my creative problem solving skills. It's it's just finding the joy in
(05:38):
failure and using it to create success. Love that. I think that is so great because
people have such narrow views of what creativity is. But if you consider it to be that way
where it's an open mind, it's a willingness to be inventive, try, test, fail, then anyone
(06:03):
can be creative. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it doesn't even matter how it shows up
as well. Because I actually think that we are all in some way, shape or form a little
bit creative. We all have something that we get to be a bit creative with, whether it
be that you are a career creative, so designer creative in that space or a writer or whatever
(06:28):
the creative outlet that you've used to build your career. But it also could be as far as
anyone who does anything in a different way. So, you know, mums who are who are putting
together a creative solution to solve the hunger of the children who are crying and
screaming and kicking in and all that. It might be that she packs their lunch in a different
(06:51):
way that makes them smile. That's being creative. It might be that, you know, my dad is a butcher
and he gets creative with the ways that he can solve other people's family hungers by
using the different parts of the meat to create a different dish or making it easier. My mom
then takes some of that meat and makes it into a pre-cooked meal. So, solving a different
(07:15):
problem for a busy mom or a busy family that can't cook that night. We're all given the
opportunity to approach different situations in different ways. And the only way that we
can find new answers is using that creativity that is given to us.
Yes. Yeah, totally. So, do you think that, do you think there's the capacity to be creative
(07:38):
in any role, any career path?
I think there's different elements or different ways you can be creative. I think that there
are some that don't nurture or foster that as much because it's not about finding new
and innovative ways. It's about making sure that it works well. So, for instance, my partner
(08:04):
works in IT and sometimes there is the need to be creative to find the solution to certain
problems. But other times it's just about business as usual or making it so that everyone
knows about a certain thing happening. So, if you're finding that you're lacking creativity
in your job, it might be that you're not looking hard enough or you're trying to be too creative
(08:31):
with the things that don't need it.
It's funny because I spent my career trying to find all these ways to be creative in it
just to keep myself interested. But I actually had a guest on a couple of weeks ago who said,
my job is not the place for me to be creative. My job is I do my job and I do it well and
(08:55):
I get out and I have the rest of my life is my time when I can play around with my creativity.
I was like, "That's so interesting that I was trying to do it one way, he's trying to
do it another way." But that's the thing, it's a whole spectrum, isn't it?
It's making it work for your brain as well because it might be that your brain needs
creativity to stay on task so you might find creativity in the process rather than in the
(09:19):
execution. When I was working as a designer, so before I went full-time freelance back
872 years ago, it feels like, but it was only seven or eight, I was working at Rolex Australia.
I was processing between 100 and 150 ads per month. I was literally speaking to publications,
(09:41):
finding out what the specs were, resizing the pre-done ads to that size and sending them
off. That's not a creative process. That's not a creative outlet. It's literally just
resize and send 100 to 150 times. And also, they had it all set up on Microsoft Access
and I'm pretty sure they still do. It hurts my heart a little bit. Yeah, I know. Let's
(10:03):
go old school. But it was then finding the creative outlets in some of the events. It
was then recognizing that it was only three days a week and I could put all of that extra
creative energy into my business because that was my gap year transition from full-time
working as a designer into full-time freelance was a year working three days a week at Rolex
(10:25):
Australia. And it was definitely, I learnt the resilience and the processing and the
power that comes from being able to do something in a really systematic way because it stops
the creative overthinking happen as well because as great as creativity is, it sometimes can
(10:46):
get in the way of actually doing the thing. And so we want it to be like, "Oh, but I want
it to be more creative. What if it could be better? What if it could be better? What if
it could be better?" And it's like, "Okay, it could. Doesn't need to be."
Yeah, you need to actually stop.
Or doesn't need to just exist so that we can move on. So it's about finding the ways that
(11:09):
creativity works for you in your own system and in your own brain.
And so what draws you to creativity?
I love a problem. I love a problem. I love to find ways to solve problems that other
people don't think of because I think the thing we do is we think everyone thinks like
(11:32):
us. But they don't. I can almost 100% guarantee you that there are people in your world that
don't understand how you solve problems or how you do what you do. We think that what
we do is simple and easy, but it is because we've worked hard to make it simple and easy.
(11:54):
I really enjoy problem solving process because I get to use both sides of my brain, the logical
side of breaking something down into systematic process-based steps. And then I get to use
the creativity side of things to kind of go, "Okay, how can we do this better? How can
we do this differently? What experiences both micro and macro do I have to be able to bring
(12:22):
to the table to solve this problem?" So micro might be little tests that I've done or similar
experiences. Macro might be my experience or wealth of knowledge over the time that
I've been a designer. So it's working out what experience can you bring to the table
to solve that particular problem knowing that it won't be the last time you solve this
(12:43):
problem? Yeah, definitely. And that's kind of a pretty sweet say way into talking about
pricing because that's what your alter ego is, the pricing queen, am I right? She is.
She is definitely the alter ego. She came to a fruition. I remember sitting there really
(13:08):
really kind of trying to get past the ego that comes from stepping into that because
I didn't want to... I didn't want to piss anyone off by owning that, by creating a space
(13:30):
where I became that. And I started thinking about the other queens that we know. So in
my creative industry, at the time, there was the passion project queen, Miss Lauren Holm,
and she's freaking fantastic. She's now since gone on to do a... Of all things, a culinary...
(13:52):
She's gone to culinary school, and so she's using her creativity for cooking now, which
is really cool, but she's like a muralist. And she was the prolific creator of online
courses and murals and passion projects that then get you paid. And she was just incredible.
(14:12):
And then I started thinking about, okay, we'll further out from that. What other queens do
we know other than the wonderful gay community? But the other queens that we know is Miss
Yonsei. And so Beyonce actually has that she is Beyonce in normal life, but she is Sasha
Fierce on stage. And so she's not necessarily Sasha Fierce to everyone. She is Sasha Fierce
(14:40):
to herself so that she can show up as that person because it feels like, like we said,
the alter ego. And so I kind of went, well, I don't feel like it is such a bad thing to
own that because the more I own that, it's kind of like throwing a flag, like throwing
(15:01):
up a flag and saying, hey, guys, you want help with pricing? I'm going to be the person
that I needed when I was back where you were. If you need me, I'm here. If you don't, that's
okay. But I'll still be here. And so when you're ready, let's work together and find
ways to make more money because we as creatives hate talking about money. So I'm going to
(15:25):
try and start the conversation to make you feel more comfortable so that you can make
more money.
Yeah. Yeah. It's a nice delineation between your design based work and your pricing based
work. I think that's great. And I think the link for me from what you said previously
(15:45):
into your pricing was that we, I think, we always think that what we know about and what
our skills are, are just taken for granted. And we're like, oh yeah, everyone can do this.
But we have done that. 10,000 hours, we've practiced, we've honed, and sure it may take
us way less time to do a creative project than someone who doesn't do it every day.
(16:09):
But that saw that then plays into our minds when we are trying to price our work because
you quite often try and default into hourly pricing because you're like, oh, well, you
know, it only takes me 15 minutes. But actually, they only takes me 15 minutes because I've
done it for five, five years. You've taken me two hours. So I feel like that was like
(16:35):
a really interesting thing you said before, leading into this pricing thing. And so now
you really do help people with careers with pricing, setting a price and a value to their
products and their services.
I love it. It's honestly become such an incredible outlet for me to be able to help other freelancers
(16:55):
and designers and creatives. Like, it comes back to the whole how we started this conversation
of like a creative is someone who does something different, who solves the problem in a non-traditional
way. I've had everything from your traditional social media managers, brand designers, photographers,
copywriters, all the way through to product owners. I had a baby nappy's cover manufacturer.
(17:25):
Like she just does them like she hand creates them. So she's a hand crafter. I have just
had someone sign up to my masterclass that's happening tomorrow who's a dancer and a choreographer.
So I've been really quite surprised and wonderfully so on the different ways that I can help that
(17:46):
I didn't expect. And by doing that, I'm actually helping someone else make more money. And that's
so exciting. That's so special.
Yes. And you said that this is you're doing now what you needed back then. So what were
you did you in the beginning struggle with setting your pricing?
Absolutely. I absolutely struggled with pricing because I think I fell into the like the common
(18:11):
traps that we all have fallen into times where we want to we want to make sure that our price
is what we believe is fair and reasonable for the client. We avoid confrontation by
trying to make the perfect price that fits exactly what they are going to be willing
(18:33):
to pay based on the information we have, based on the ideas that we have of what is acceptable
to pay. I spent so much time trying to be the right price for everyone. And I discovered
over the course of 15 years being a designer, being a freelancer for the last 10 of those
(18:59):
is that there's no such thing as the perfect price. You need to look after your own prices
and set the prices based on the future of your business, not your clients budgets. Because
if you set it based on the clients budgets, you're going to be in a position where you
don't exist in the future because you've only been able to serve at a certain level
(19:20):
for everyone. So I think a lot of the time we go, okay, I need to set the perfect price
for as many people as possible so that everyone can afford me and I don't have to be giving
that whole, I'm sorry, but you can't afford me conversation because we don't want to be
confrontational. We don't want to disappoint someone. We don't want to let them down. And
(19:44):
we take that responsibility on. We make it that we are responsible for whether they say
yes or no, when we're not, we're not responsible for that. We are only responsible for making
sure that the price matches the way that we can serve and we can show up and we can help
(20:06):
them so that we exist in the future to be able to help them. I spent so long kind of
like second guessing and going, does anyone know how to price? Does anyone know? Like,
I've got the screenshots of the Facebook posts that I put up of like, Jasmine is unsure how
to price this job like cringe like super cringe. When we used to do the Facebook groups, we
(20:30):
used to do the groups of like this person is feeling content. But I spent so long trying
to do that, but it had to become a process and was necessary for me to understand what
that looked like so that I didn't fall into the quote unquote trap of no longer existing
(20:56):
in the future because I tried to make my prices suitable for everyone.
Yeah. It's amazing how we the default is to undervalue our creativity and to undervalue
our skills and our prices reflect that. It's just amazing. Like, why is that the default
(21:17):
for us? It's the default because we feel guilty. We feel guilty that we enjoy our job
and they don't, assumptively, assumptively, because if they're coming to us to hire us,
they've asked for help. So how can we deny them of that? How can we deny them of that
(21:38):
by charging them? How can we deny them of that by charging too much quote unquote too much?
How can we be so selfish as to hold back our creativity by putting a price tag on it? My
friend, my listener in your ears, do you hear how ridiculous that sounds? Like, it sounds
(22:02):
so ridiculous when you articulate it, but it is definitely the thoughts and feelings
that come into our brains when we're having to put a price tag on the access to our genius.
The fact of the matter is, creativity is a luxury item. It is a hill I will die on.
Creativity is a luxury item. You can just as easily sell anything with black and white
(22:26):
printed piece of paper, but the creativity is the color that makes someone look, that
makes someone buy, that makes someone interested and convinces them that they need it in their
life. You can easily print out on a piece of paper with Times New Roman or Comic Sans,
if you really want to, that you've got a product for sale. But if that flyer is designed by
(22:50):
a creative who is helping you solve a problem, sales, but also promotions, marketing, brand
awareness, conversation starter, but also facilitating solving a problem for their customers
too, that's a luxury item. So it needs to be charged for and priced accordingly.
(23:16):
It's funny, isn't it? Because I think as you go on throughout your business, you get more
and more comfortable having those money conversations and more and more confident that you're adding
a huge amount of value through your creativity and your service delivery. But there's always
those times where you've gone through the quoting process and someone's like, "Oh, don't worry,
(23:38):
I can just do it on Fiverr anyway." Or I can do it on Canva. "Bye!"
Yeah, and then you go, "Oh, God, that's so sad." But then afterwards, I'm like, "Well,
actually, they probably wouldn't have been a great client anyway." If that's how much
they value what I'm bringing to the table, they probably were not the right fit anyway.
(23:58):
If that's how much they value you when you're currently free, because before they've paid,
they haven't bought anything. So if that's how much they're valuing you at free, they're
not going to value you when you charge. So true. And it sucks. And it sucks because we
can sit there and see the potential and see the abilities that we have that they are missing
(24:21):
out on. And we're like, "Wow, that sucks for you." Like, that sucks for them to not be
able to access the genius that you can bring to the table. But that's a them problem.
That's a them problem.
And it feels uncomfortable the first time and a little less comfortable, a little more
comfortable the next time, and a little more comfortable the next time. I won't say that
(24:44):
I'm completely comfortable when people say no to me now or tell me that I'm too expensive.
Because I get told I'm too expensive probably on a weekly basis, generally. But I also
have situations like this morning when someone signed a $14,000 branding package.
Good girl.
(25:05):
I laughed so hard because I'm like, "What do you mean you said yes? What? Okay, cool.
We're good. I'm excited because I know how exactly I'm going to solve this problem."
But it didn't always, it wasn't always like that. And it all comes down to confidence,
not just my confidence in the way that I communicate with my customers and my clients,
(25:26):
not my confidence in my abilities, my confidence in the way that I know I can solve the problem
and if I didn't this time, I will next time.
And also the confidence that I need to instill in my customers and clients to know that I
can solve it. Like every single investment that any person makes in either someone else's
(25:51):
product or service comes with an inherent risk. And so it is my responsibility in those
first few interactions with my customers, whether they be directly with me or with my
website, with my socials, with my content, with my emails, however they've interacted
with me before, it's my responsibility to show them that I'm qualified, to reduce their
(26:14):
risk factor, to make them feel more comfortable that if they spend money on me, I will help
them make it back and probably double it, if not triple it. And finding that that's really
important because those people who are on Fiverr and who are on those cheaper experience websites
(26:41):
are riskier. And I've seen the risk play out. I've seen friends of mine who have gone with
a logo from Fiverr only to be sued two years later because they stole it from another designer.
I've seen friends of mine create an entire branding package and go to a trade market
and realise they don't have ownership. I've seen them have to re-brand three years in
(27:08):
because they've found or discovered that either the logo doesn't suit their business
anymore, it hasn't grown with their business, or it was improperly acquired, whether through
a stock shot or through a different way. And now they have to re-spend, but they are in
(27:31):
no way, shape or form, going to spend the same amount because hell no, are they going
through that again? So they will invest in something that is a higher option. And so
if we sit there and we go, "Oh, well, everyone else on Fiverr is..." and not to be Fiverr
bashing, look, it has its merits, it has its relevance, it needs to be there so that we
don't get the clients that expect that from us. But when we set our prices the same as
(27:59):
those kind of higher risk options, we put a flag in front of our store saying we're
just as risky. You can expect the same from us. Why would someone buy that?
It's funny because I think part of what you're saying is us placing value on ourselves, but
(28:23):
it's also having a conversation with the businesses and saying, "You need to place
value on yourself as well that you deserve this creative service at this price point."
Sure, you can go to Fiverr, but don't you think your business deserves more than that?
Yeah, yeah. That's wild. I always do warn people of people. I don't quite often get
(28:48):
people going off to Fiverr. When I first started, there was always the punters, but I was going,
"Of course, do that. Just please make sure that if you want a trademark in the future,
you may not be able to do that." Yeah, and that's a great practice to adopt because
you're not only saying not a problem and being gracious about it and going, "Look,
(29:10):
not a problem. I'm probably not the right one for you. That's not a problem."
But when you do that, please look out for these things because I would hate for—and
you are communicating their best interests at heart even though you're parting ways.
And sometimes those come back. And sometimes they come back to you when they have earned it,
when they have earned that level to access that. A lot of the time when we do discount, lower our
(29:36):
prices, try and make sure that we are the lower cheaper option, people who believe they have
achieved a higher level will say no. And then we devalue that for them. And that's not fair.
That's not fair for us and that's not fair for them. It's an opportunity for you to go, "Well,
I don't want to do this for less. I don't want to have to rush the process so that I stay under
(30:03):
budget. I don't want to have to cut corners in my own processes so that I fit within the dollars
that have been allocated because there's nothing worse than looking at the budget and going,
"I can't do more than this. Otherwise, I'm losing out on money." And it sucks.
Stop trying to do a logo in 10 hours. I'm sorry, but a logo takes time and takes effort and takes
(30:31):
development and takes energy. And if you're rushing that process so that you can stay cheap,
that's not going to get you far. And I think I give you articulate that back to the client,
saying, "It is this expensive because we don't want to rush it." What are they going to say?
"Oh, yeah. No, I think you should rush it." That's where you would... Yeah,
(30:57):
client education has to be part of your processes. And a good client education process, and I'm not
just talking about, "This is how I do my work. This is how this happens. And then I'll take it
into the sketch phase, and then I'll put it into this, and then I'll put it into Illustrator.
I'm going to use vectors. They don't give two shits about it. Sorry." But what they want to do is
(31:20):
know the process from their side of things so that they've got that trust factor. And so then
you would say and articulate to them, "Look, we actually really make sure that the colors that
we're using are specifically chosen not only to articulate what we're trying to do as a brand,
but also fit into things that we know are important." For example, contrast guidelines for
(31:43):
websites. I've seen so many times where people put together a color spectrum for a brand,
and you then translate it into the rest of it, and it's like, "Oh, yeah, that doesn't work."
Like everything is the wrong contrast, or it doesn't follow guidelines. Anyone who doesn't
quite understand. So contrast guidelines, it's WCAG, I think it is,
(32:05):
where it needs to reach a certain ratio on your website to be able to be readable. And if it's
under that ratio, it's then non-compliant and makes it so that it's actually really difficult for
anyone to read whether you are of standard reading capabilities or not. And it infuriates me because
(32:29):
when we cheapen the work, we have to cut corners, and therefore we might not check that. We might
use a font that actually can't be used in commercial experiences, or we might choose
colors that can't be reproduced in print. Like there's colors that can't be reproduced in print,
(32:51):
but can only be reproduced in digital and vice versa. So it's our responsibility as the creative
professional to make sure that those are followed. But if a client comes back to you and says, "Oh,
why is this so expensive?" It's because you have to do those processes to be the most professional,
to be able to charge professional rates. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's that whole thing that you don't
(33:13):
know what you don't know, and then you find out all the things you don't know, and you're like,
"Oh, shit." And they're so overwhelming. So you sort of need to give your clients a little indication
of all these things you're taking into consideration, which justifies all of that stuff.
Mm-hmm. Oh, wow. There's so much, there's so much rich content here, jazz. And you,
you're always helping people with this, with webinars and all types of things.
(33:38):
Tell me, if people want to know how to better value their creative services, what can they do?
How can they work with you? Yeah, for sure. So I know that we've talked a little bit about
hourly rates and how they are not necessarily the best way to do business, but you do need
to know the value of your time to be able to justify running your business. So I actually
(34:01):
have a pricing calculator, a free pricing calculator that helps you calculate the exact rate that you
need to be putting on your time. It starts with the salary that you would be making, adds in the
expenses of running a business, because you didn't have to worry about that when you're employed.
You do need to worry about it now. And then reallocates the hours that you have that you can
actually bill for. So it starts with the salary, add in the expenses, and then divide by the time
(34:24):
that you actually can charge for. And this calculator actually pops out the exact hourly
rate that you need to be using in your calculations to then start working out what to charge your
clients. So anyone on the podcast gets a free pricing calculator. So if you head to creativebusinesskitchen.com/uncovered,
(34:46):
you can access that pricing calculator to get started in that process. Otherwise, come
join me on Instagram because I am literally always there and I serve so many different
food for thought, interesting takes on different ways of being a creative, as well as I am a bit
of a freebie guide giver. I love to give information. And then I do a monthly masterclass as well.
(35:10):
So come on over. I'm your pricing queen on Instagram. Yeah, definitely, definitely worth it. And I'll
pop the link to the pricing calculator and your socials and everything like that in our show notes.
So don't feel like you guys have to remember all that right now. I can practically hear people
frantically writing that down. But do you thank so much, Jazz, for joining me today. That was
(35:35):
a fantastic conversation and there is so much more to talk about. But yeah, do head on to her
socials to find out all everything you need to know about pricing and making sure you value yourself.
And I also want to say thank you to everyone who has tuned into Creativity (35:49):
Uncovered today.
I really do hope that this episode has inspired you to start to realize your true value as a creative
and always that it helps summon your creativity the next time that you need it.
[Music]
(36:33):
If you've made it this far, a huge thank you for your support and tuning into today's episode.
Creativity (36:39):
Uncovered has been lovingly recorded on the land of the Kabi Kabi people and we pay our
respect to elders past, present and emerging. This podcast has been produced by my amazing team here
at Crisp Communications and the music you just heard was composed by James Gatling. If you liked
(37:01):
this episode, please do share it around and help us on our mission to unlock more creativity in
this world. You can also hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any new episode releases.
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