A Cry in the Dark (Evil Angels)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashey (00:08):
Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, the show where we
take a look at some of yourfavorite movies and the true
crime stories that inspired them.
I'm Ashley.
I'm a clinical psychologist andforensic evaluator in the state
of Oregon.

Remi (00:21):
And I'm Remy.
I spent over a decade workingin the film and television
industry in Los Angeles,California.

Ashley (00:28):
And welcome back everyone.
Thanks for tuning in for ourthird episode of season five.
I'm very excited to talk aboutthis case.
Remy, how are you doing today?

Remi (00:39):
I'm doing pretty well.
We are currently on vacation inGermany right now, so guten tag
to all of our German listenersout there.

Ashley (00:48):
Yes, we do check the statistics and I know we do have
several German listeners thattune in every single week
without fail.
So hopefully after our visit wewill have more.

Remi (01:00):
Yes, we finally got out that way for Oktoberfest, and it
was a blast, to say the least.

Ashley (01:07):
Well, Remy, what are we going to be talking about today?

Remi (01:10):
Today we will be discussing a tragic case of a
mother falsely accused ofmurdering her own baby, which
somehow got turned into acatchphrase which some of our
audience may recognize from a1991 episode of Seinfeld titled

(01:31):
the Stranded.
I have lost my fiance, the poorbaby.

A Cry in the Dark scene (01:39):
Maybe the dingo ate your baby.
What the dingo ate your baby.
What the dingo ate your baby.

Remi (01:51):
That was, of course, Julia Louise Dreyfuss as Elaine, the
iconic female counterpart toJerry and all his guy buddies on
the show.
Had you seen this episodebefore, Ashley?
I know you're not really aSeinfeld fan.

Ashley (02:05):
You know, believe it or not, I've never watched a full
episode of Seinfeld.

Remi (02:10):
You were more of a Friends person, I'm guessing.

Ashley (02:13):
I definitely was.
Seinfeld was a little bitbefore my time and when I got
into Friends I know they werekind of both going on at the
same time, even though Seinfeldobviously started sooner.
But Seinfeld just had too muchof a dry humor for me.
I'm sure I'd like it if Iwatched it now, but I had not
seen this clip.
No.

Remi (02:33):
Had you ever heard that catchphrase before?
I've heard it a few places, Iknow.

Ashley (02:38):
I know I have heard it a few times.
I can't think of a specificclip or anything, but it was
something that has been inpopular culture for so so, so,
so long.

Remi (03:01):
And at some point I knew it was about a case, but I
definitely was unaware of all.
I have seen this catchphrasesaid on several other programs
throughout the years and featurefilms, but I honestly had no
idea that it was taken from areal life event until maybe the
past five, ten years or so.

(03:21):
It's pretty recent and it issort of crazy that something
that has become basically a jokeis based on such a tragic,
tragic event.

Ashley (03:33):
Yeah, I never really appreciated how fucked up it is
that it is treated as a jokeuntil going through all the
research of this case.
In the end, we and when I saywe, I mean the popular zeitgeist
are making light of a tragicdisappearing and death of a
nine-week-old baby and thedemonification of the mom, who

(03:59):
was completely innocent Spoiler.

Remi (04:02):
Yes, today we will be discussing Lindy Chamberlain and
the Chamberlain family, a womanwhose baby was stolen and
killed by a dingo in Australiaand I know that can sound a bit
far-fetched, and that's exactlywhat the people of Australia
thought.
And this woman was horrificallypersecuted and blamed for the

(04:25):
death of her baby when inreality it was taken by a dingo.
And I have to admit, untilreally really recently I had no
idea what a dingo was.
I thought it was a type ofkangaroo, but it turns out it's
more of an Australian coyotethat's sort of colored like a
Shibu Inu.

Ashley (04:44):
And by very, very recently he means a week before
we started filming this podcast.
We were in the car on our wayto a friend's birthday and you
asked me if I knew what a dingowas, and I said absolutely.
And you were surprised that Iknew what it was.

Remi (04:58):
Yes, by really recently, I mean within the past couple of
weeks.
I am admitting to my idiocy inthis specific area.
I do not know a ton aboutAustralian wildlife, but I do
hope to visit Australia one day.
It's been on my bucket list forquite some time, so maybe we
will get out there someday,ashley.

Ashley (05:20):
This movie also marks one of two movies that we have
on our list that I have justbeen itching to cover so long,
because they both star theamazing Meryl Streep.

Remi (05:34):
Possibly the greatest actress of our time.
Do you have a favorite MerylStreep film?
Ashley?

Ashley (05:41):
I have two, and it is impossible for me to choose
between them.
Those two are Death Becomes Her, which I just love.
I have a very good friend who,back in high school, introduced
me to all of these quirky kindof sci-fi movies.
She showed me this one, earthGirls Are Easy and Mars Attacks,

(06:02):
all of which are just so, sogreat.
The other favorite is, ofcourse, devil Wears Prada.
Her Miranda Priestly is justiconic, and I personally can't
wait to see her in the secondone that is coming out soon.

Remi (06:16):
You literally took the words right out of my mouth.
I think the first time Iconsciously remember seeing
Meryl Streep in a film was DeathBecomes Her, which was directed
by Robert Zemeckis and alsostars Goldie Hawn and Bruce
Willis.
I don't know if I'd categorizeit as a sci-fi.
It's sort of a grotesque lovetriangle, immortality, revenge

(06:40):
comedy and it will always have aspecial place in my heart.
But yes, she is fabulous in theDevil Wears Prada and I'm going
to give an honorable mention toher performance in Doubt as
well.

Ashley (06:51):
She's just so good.
Because of her range she canplay the most serious of roles,
which she has been recognized bythe Academy time and time again
.
She can play an actress in amore lighthearted drama, like
Florence Foster Jenkins which Iactually didn't see, but I know
she was nominated for that tooand she can also poke fun of her

(07:12):
, like she was in that movieDon't Look Up where she was the
president and there was a nudescene of her.
Granted, it wasn't her body,but she makes fun of herself and
can just be really lighthearted.
She can also do family filmslike Into the Woods.
She can just do it all.

Remi (07:29):
I'm not a huge fan of Don't Look Up, but I must say a
highlight of the film is JonahHill and Meryl Streep as mother
and son, who are also in theWhite House, and I've always
thought of it like when you seean actor like Tom Cruise or even
Leonardo DiCaprio, you'realways thinking of them as Tom

(07:50):
Cruise or Leonardo DiCaprio whenyou're seeing them in a film.
Most of the time, however, Inever think that when I'm
watching Meryl Streep in a movie, she completely disappears into
every single character sheplays and it is truly remarkable
.

Ashley (08:06):
Well, with that, let's get into this performance.
She does play someone fromAustralia, so I am just so
curious to really learn whatwent into this movie, how she
prepared for it, and I want toknow about her accent.

Remi (08:20):
Well then, let's get into it.
Hello, hey, it's Wadingo herefella.

Oh, don't encourage him, Michael.
The signs say he shouldn't.

Remi (08:30):
Evil Angels, which was later retitled A Cry in the Dark
for international audiences isa 1988 drama directed by Fred
Schepisi, with a screenplay bySch Shapisi and Robert Caswell.
The film is based on JohnBryson's 1985 book of the same
name and stars Meryl Streep andSam Neill.

Ashley (08:51):
Which I will point out.
That book was the primarysource material I use for my
section.

Remi (08:57):
Producer Verity Lambert purchased the rights to Bryson's
book shortly after itspublication in 1985.
At first, the project was setup under Thorne EMI Screen
Entertainment with plans toco-produce alongside Greater
Union, their Australiandistribution partner.
However, Lambert eventuallychose to produce the film

(09:18):
through her own company, withCanon Films backing and Fred
Schapisi directing.
Do you remember anything aboutCanon Films, Ashley?

Ashley (09:27):
I do not.
What is it?

Remi (09:28):
It is the production company that made the original
Toxic Avenger film and they arekind of a B-movie production
company that a lot of big-namedirectors got their start at,
like James Cameron and RonHoward, and we discussed them
previously on our Monsterepisode.
I believe Director FredSchepisi had previously worked

(09:52):
with both Meryl Streep and SamNeill on his 1985 film Plenty.
By the time Evil Angels wentinto production, streep was
coming off her seventh AcademyAward nomination for Ironweed in
1987 and was immediately drawnto the project, calling it an
incredibly compelling story.

Meryl Streep (10:11):
I had a sort of a special task with this one
because I was portraying someonewhose life was still in
litigation.
So I had to be real, real,accurate.
With the other real people I'veplayed, I've had a little more
leeway, you know, with IsaacDinesen and Karen Silkwood I had

(10:31):
I could put more of myself in.
She has a very specific way ofspeaking which is not
necessarily the way that a lotof Australians talk.
It's very, very nasal and it'sin the nose and she goes down
all the time to make a pointlike that.
You know it was really, reallyexact, so I had to get it right.

(10:55):
I mean, I really sweat bulletstrying to achieve it.

Remi (11:00):
Streep later said that Lindy Chamberlain's accent was
the most difficult she had everattempted.
She compared mastering a newaccent to putting on good shoes
before a race it won't make youwin, but it will help you
perform better.
For the role, Streep gainedweight and focused on capturing
Lindy's physical presence,believing that her harsh

(11:22):
exterior played a key role inher media vilification and
public perception.

Ashley (11:28):
Two cases in a row now with women that were just ripped
apart by the media, one for alittle more good reason than the
other.

Remi (11:37):
Kiwi actor Sam Neill, who plays Michael Chamberlain in the
film, was already very familiarwith the case but claimed to
have never formed a personalopinion regarding Lindy's guilt,
stating it was not for me todecide.
Throughout the course of makingthe film, however, Neil became
adamantly convinced of thefamily's innocence and after

(11:59):
going over this case, I don'tknow how you could possibly
think that this family wasguilty of doing this.
It's pretty mind-boggling whatthey went through and the flimsy
evidence that was brought upagainst them.
Filming in Australia was metwith significant opposition from
the media, with Streep herselfbeing relentlessly pursued by

(12:20):
tabloid reporters during theentire shoot.
Although the Chamberlains werenot officially involved in the
production, the filmmakers didconsult them and both actors
felt that it was important tomeet their real-life
counterparts.
At first, Streep was toonervous to meet Lindy and
delayed the introduction severaltimes.
When they finally did meet,Streep tried to lighten the mood

(12:43):
by noting their sharedexperience with public scrutiny
in Australia, only for Lindy toretort yes, but you're famous
and I'm infamous.
I'm sure the conversationwasn't awkward at all from that
moment forward.
Sam Neill also recalled thatwhen he first met Michael
Chamberlain, Michael admittedthat he had never heard of him

(13:04):
and was deeply suspicious of anagnostic actor portraying him on
screen.
Sounds like neither one of theChamberlains were really
thrilled that this movie wasbeing made, but they were just
being forced to accept it anywayOut of respect.
Neither Streep nor Neal spokeabout any details of the case
during their meetings with theChamberlains.

(13:25):
Evil Angels was among the mostexpensive and ambitious
productions ever filmed inAustralia, with 350 speaking
roles and over 4,000 extras.
This film does a thing where itis showing the public reacting
to Lindy, so it will cut topeople in everyday scenarios

(13:46):
they're on their lunch break,they're pumping gas, they're
hanging out with some friends ata bar.
It just shows regular peoplediscussing the trial and their
thoughts of it, and I think it'svery, very effective.

Ashley (13:57):
I mean, this was the biggest case Australia has ever
seen and probably the biggestsince.

Remi (14:03):
This was basically the equivalent to the OJ trial here
in America.
It was everywhere in Australiabut for whatever reason it
didn't really travel over hereto the States at the time, which
the director chalks up to.
We had our own shit going on.
While later promoting the film,director Fred Schipisi
emphasized that every detail wasfactual, with no dramatic

(14:27):
license taken.

Ashley (14:28):
We'll be the judge of that, Fred.

Remi (14:30):
Well, are you ready to dive into Evil Angels, aka A Cry
in the Dark?

Ashley (14:37):
I sure am.

Remi (14:48):
Our story begins in August 1980 in the small town of Mount
Isa, queensland, inside aSeventh-day Adventist church,
pastor Michael Chamberlain,played by Sam Neill, stands with
his wife Lindy played by MerylStreep, and their two young sons
, aiden and Regan, to presenttheir newborn daughter, azaria
Chantel Loren Chamberlain,before the congregation.

(15:11):
Not long after we see theChamberlains preparing for a
family vacation, lindy is busypacking while Michael is
elsewhere delivering a sermon onthe dangers of cigarette
smoking, using a propinfant-sized casket for added
effect.

Ashley (15:27):
I do not have this in my section, but during a
subsequent search of theChamberlain home, the police
officers discover this casketthat he used for his
anti-smoking campaigns, and itraises more than a few eyebrows.

Remi (15:41):
I did not include that either, but it is in the film.
Back home, michael maps out thefamily road trip for his two
boys, including stops at theOlgas, the Devil's Marbles and
Ayers Rock, the largest rock inthe entire world.
Their journey begins at AyersRock like any other family
vacation, with Michael eagerlysnapping photographs of the

(16:05):
majestic landscapes as Lindy andthe boys explore the interiors
of the striking red rockformations.
That evening, after a long dayof hiking, lindy gives baby
Azaria a bath as Michael sets upthe rest of camp before heading
back out to capture a few morephotos of the stunning landscape
.
As the sun begins to set bynightfall, the campgrounds are

(16:28):
buzzing with activity as theChamberlains grill up a hearty
vegetarian dinner and minglewith fellow campers, while
Michael casually tosses scrapsof food to a dingo lurking
nearby.
After dinner, lindy tucksAzaria into their tent for the
night, but after a short whilehears the baby begin to cry, so
returns to console her.

(16:49):
As Lindy approaches, shenotices that a dingo has gotten
into the tent with somethingclenched between its jaws, so
quickly chases it away beforechecking on Azaria.
To her horror Azaria is nowhereto be found.

So Lindy begins to panic, searching
frantically in the dark for hermissing child while crying out
for help to anyone.

Ashley (17:35):
I can't see.
Michael, you can't see.
It's too dark.
You need a torch, michael.
That way you can't see.
You need a torch.
Has anybody got a torch?
The?

Judge's Verdict (film) (17:40):
day can't come.
I'm out of here.
Has anybody got a torch Please?

Remi (17:44):
help me, help me, help me.
Michael quickly grabs aflashlight and is joined by a
few other campers who all beginscouring the dark Australian
outback for any trace of Azaria,only to return empty-handed
Soon after the police arrive onthe scene and organize a more
coordinated group search effort,but the only potential clue

(18:07):
uncovered is a single dingo pawprint.
The search continues late intothe evening, but inevitably ends
in heartbreak, with not asingle trace of baby Azaria
being found.
When the search party finallyreturns to camp, exhausted and
empty-handed, a somber Michaeltakes a moment to address the

(18:27):
crowd.
People.

Folks, it's my daughter you're looking
for and I want to thank you allfor what you're doing.
I'm a minister of religion andI know that nothing happens in
the world unless God allows it,and I know that there's little

(19:00):
hope any longer of finding ourlittle daughter alive, but I am
thankful that we will see heragain at the resurrection.
Let us pray.

Ashley (19:22):
When he finishes the speech and starts the prayer,
there are people in the crowdthat are just looking at each
other like what?

Remi (19:31):
that was weird, yeah I don't think that his speech came
off exactly how he had intendedit to.
This is a very religious, so Iguess they were a little bit
more accepting that their babywas with God and they would see
her again someday.
But hearing a father say thison the night of his baby's

(19:53):
disappearance, I'm sure somepeople thought was a little odd.

Ashley (19:58):
It's their way of trying to make sense of something that
is just so horrific and tragic.

Remi (20:04):
And we should never judge another person's grieving
process.
Everybody grieves differently,and just because it may not
match what we picture in ourhead does not mean that they are
any less tormented by all ofthis.
Michael breaks down into tearsbefore he can even finish his
speech.
With nothing more to be done,the family gathers their

(20:27):
belongings, including Azaria'scrib and blanket, and leaves the
campsite to spend the remainderof the night in a nearby motel.
Inside the room, Michael pacesendlessly, questioning why God
would take their child from them, as Lindy recounts the events
of the evening over and overagain, second-guessing every
decision that she made.

(20:49):
After a long sleepless night,the sun begins to rise, slowly
waking their two young boys,Aiden and Reagan, Through tears.
Lindy tells her sons that theirbaby sister is likely gone, but
promises that they will see heragain someday in heaven.
The next morning, the policereturn to the motel with no new
updates and inform theChamberlains that a coroner's

(21:11):
report will soon need theirsignatures.
Back at the campsite, thesearch continues with little
hope when Michael suddenlyreceives an unexpected phone
call from ABC radio, adamantlyrequesting an interview On air.
With Lindy at his side, Michaelrecounts the harrowing story of
their baby being taken by thedingo.

(21:32):
Afterwards, the family isphotographed by ABC near their
tent and the surrounding areawhere the incident took place,
capturing the moment for all tosee.

Ashley (21:43):
It is so dark that the radio station wanted to take a
photo of them outside of thetent.

Remi (21:49):
Yes, all of this was their suggestion.
The family was extremelyhesitant about agreeing to any
of this, but they seemed to justthink that this is what was
supposed to be done.
So they spoke to the press.
They followed instructions andtook these photos in and around
the campsite and even photoswith the bloody sleeping bag.

(22:09):
It is extremely fucked up whatABC made this family do.
Literally the night after theirbaby disappeared.
A separate television interviewis filmed following this, but
the footage is heavily editedfor the broadcast following this
, but the footage is heavilyedited for the broadcast,
sparking public mockery andskepticism towards the
Chamberlains.
Like there's literally a scenewhere they do the interview and

(22:31):
they show the interviewer off tothe side later on, recording
entirely new questions that theyare going to splice in with the
Chamberlains' answers to makethem look worse.
It's a pretty sneaky editingtrick that is still used to this
day.
Later that day, the policequestion Lindy again back at the
motel and by the followingmorning authorities have rounded

(22:53):
up every damn dingo in the area, hoping Lindy can identify the
culprit, which I don't know howshe would ever be expected to do
that.
If anyone out there has everseen a coyote, could you pick
that coyote out of a lineup.
If you saw it in the middle ofthe night, I don't think so.
After being unable to do so,the Chamberlains leave their

(23:13):
contact information beforeheading home in silence, still
utterly devastated by the last48 hours.
Back home.
Once the boys have finally beentucked in, michael and Lindy
stay up late, lying in bedtogether while reading scripture
, searching for some sort ofsolace in the face of such an
unimaginable tragedy.
In the days that follow, lindyreluctantly agrees to an

(23:36):
interview with a reporter fromWoman's Day magazine.
Not long after a tourist atAyers Rock discovers
blood-stained baby clothing,believed to be Azaria's,
reportedly found neatly foldednear a dingo lair, further
fueling even more wildspeculation.
Unfounded rumors about thefamily soon begin to spread like

(23:57):
wildfire, including that Lindywanted to be rid of her child,
always dressed as Aria in black,and some even believing that
the baby had been sacrificed,which I also want to point out
that all of this is coming from.
They discovered the baby'sclothing in a position that
could be perceived as folded, soit's really taken a leap to

(24:18):
start saying that she sacrificedher child.

Ashley (24:22):
It's that, with a mixture of people believing that
they were cold during mediainterviews and feeling
uncomfortable with theirrecurrent references to God.

Remi (24:33):
That weekend, the Chamberlain's church holds a
small service mourning the lossof baby Azaria.
After realizing that hisstatements to the media the day
of his daughter's disappearancemay have been misinterpreted,
the Chamberlains agreed toanother TV interview so that
Michael can attempt to explainwhy he agreed to speak with the
press so quickly.

(24:53):
Unfortunately, rather thansoftening the public's
perception of him, michael'sdemeanor comes across as
insincere to many viewers,sparking fresh rumors, including
that he had been arrestedimmediately following the
broadcast.
Soon after, lindy sits down forher own televised interview to
address the increasingly absurdrumors surrounding her and her

(25:16):
family, including claims thatthe Chamberlains were once
connected to Jim Jones' People'sTemple cult in South America.

Ashley (25:24):
Did you have a connection to Jonestown on your
bingo card for this episode?
Because I sure did not.

Remi (25:31):
The interviewer presses Lindy about certain details
regarding the condition ofAzaria's clothing, highlighting
how few tears were found andsuggesting the unlikelihood of a
dingo being able to remove thebaby's clothing in such a neat
fashion.
Lindy retorts by arguing thatdingoes often strip the skin

(25:51):
from their prey before consumingthem, but her blunt,
matter-of-fact tone onlyreinforces the impression to
audiences at home that she iscold and unfeeling.
Meanwhile, forensic results onAzaria's clothing have come back
with the analysis stating thatthere was no trace of dingo
saliva found and that the tearsin the fabric were not

(26:14):
consistent with that of dingoteeth.
As soon as the press catcheswind of this, the findings
dominate headlines across thecountry, further exacerbating
the public suspicion and doubtsregarding the Chamberlain's
version of the events.
By the time preparations havebegun for the official inquest

(26:34):
to determine the cause, mannerand circumstances of Azaria's
death, the family is already inthe midst of packing and
preparing to move to AvondaleCollege, since Michael's study
leave has been approved.
On the first day of the inquiry, the Chamberlains arrive at the
courthouse only to be greetedby a full-blown media circus

(26:54):
with reporters and camerasswarming them from every
direction.
During the inquiry, lindy takesthe stand first and delivers
the following heartfelttestimony Was the Women's Day
article accurate?

No, it was the most inaccurate article
of all or at least the ones thatI've read so far.

(27:33):
In fact, there are only aboutfive reporters who write exactly
what you say and the rest ofthem use a little bit of licence
.
Perhaps I could read yousomething from Dr Brown's report
.
There were several small cutsin the baby blankets, but there
was no evidence of tooth marks.
Well, teeth cut, don't they?

(27:55):
A forensic dentist finds noevidence of tooth marks.
Does that concern you?
Well, of course it concerns me,but he doesn't know what caused
the cuts.
And if he can't say whathappened, how can he say what
didn't happen?
So you're not prepared to accepthis expertise in saying that
there were no teeth marks?
I'm not saying that I'm sayingwhat I'd like is a full answer,
not a half answer.
I'd like to know more thananyone else what happened to my

(28:23):
baby daughter.
What happened to my baby?

Remi (28:24):
daughter.
This would be unimaginable tobe forced to go through after
losing a child.
And it only gets worse andworse and worse as we go on.
Despite the sincerity behindher words, lindy's testimony

(28:50):
unintentionally sparks outrageamong dingo activists across the
country.
Tensions continue to escalateduring Michael's testimony when
a death threat is made frominside the courthouse, forcing
an impromptu intermission.
Later the inquiry moves toAyers Rock itself, where
officials conduct a nighttimeinspection of the campsite and
the barbecue area.
Lindy's anguished expressionsduring the ordeal are captured

(29:13):
by the press and splatteredacross the front pages of every
newspaper the following morning.
So from that point forward,lindy vows to never show any
emotion in front of the camerasever again.
That same night, theChamberlain's hotel is evacuated
after receiving a bomb threat.
When the inquiry finally drawsto a close, the judge delivers

(29:40):
his verdict live on nationaltelevision.

Judge's Verdict (film) (29:41):
To you, pastor and Mrs Chamberlain, and
through you to Aidan and Regan,may I extend my deepest sympathy
.
You've not only suffered theloss of your beloved child in
the most tragic circumstances,but you've all been subjected to
months of innuendos, suspicionand some of the most malicious

(30:03):
gossip ever witnessed in thiscountry, and some of the most
malicious gossip ever witnessedin this country.
I've taken the unusual step ofpermitting these proceedings to
be televised today, in the hopethat by direct and accurate
communication, such innuendos,suspicion and gossip may cease.
This case clearly emphasizesthat a choice has to be made

(30:23):
between dingoes on one hand andtourism on the other.

Remi (30:28):
The judge continues by criticizing the Northern
Territory Police for theirmishandling of the case, noting
that the forensic expert whoexamined Azaria's clothing had
no experience with bite marksand fabric likely making his
findings unreliable.
Experience with bite marks andfabric likely making his
findings unreliable.
The inquiry closes with thejudge ruling that Azaria's death

(30:49):
was the result of a wild dingoattack and that no member of the
Chamberlain family bore anyresponsibility whatsoever.
Despite the judge's verdict,the majority of Australian
citizens remain unconvinced.
During their statement to thepress outside of the courthouse,
the Chamberlains unveil a largeposter of Lindy holding baby

(31:13):
Azaria, depicting a lovingmaternal moment between mother
and daughter.
But does this garner anysympathy for the Chamberlains?
Of course not.
The gesture is viewed by thepublic as simply another
desperate plea for attention bythe family.

Ashley (31:30):
I watched several interviews with Lindy, most of
which were ones that she hasdone since then, and she kind of
talks about this.
In one of them she saidsomething like I didn't know how
I was supposed to come across.
If I cried, it was all fake,and, for the cameras, if I
didn't cry, I was viewed as coldhearted.

Remi (31:53):
There is a scene in the film Gone Girl where Ben
Affleck's lawyer is discussinghow he presents himself on
camera, where he is criticizinghis posture.
He's criticizing how he'ssaying certain words, his looks.
There's so many little thingsthat the public judges you on
that have nothing to do withfacts or the case.

(32:16):
It's literally how you look andhow people perceive you based
on that, which is so fucked up.
In the weeks that follow, lindybegins working towards getting
her Bachelor of Education andthe Chamberlains relocate to
Avondale College, a seventh-dayAventus University, where

(32:36):
Michael begins his study leavewith plans to move the family
over to America the followingyear so that Michael can pursue
his doctorate in health science.
The family agrees to atelevision interview where they
reveal these plans, but thefootage is heavily edited again
in order to portray them in anunflattering light, further

(32:59):
twisting the public's perceptionof them.
And if I was the Chamberlains Iwould have stopped giving any
interviews a long time ago.
I would not trust the presswith anything involving my story
.
Meanwhile, embarrassed by theinquiry judge's televised
lambasting the NorthernTerritory Police led by

(33:21):
Constable Graham Charlwood,played by Nick Tate have decided
to continue their investigationby re-interviewing various
witnesses from the night ofAzaria's disappearance, and I
didn't mention this.
But all of these interviewswere coordinated to take place
at the same time, on the sameday, so that no one could catch

(33:42):
wind that they were occurring.

Ashley (33:45):
This whole re-investigation was definitely
kept under wraps and done insecret for several months.

Remi (33:51):
Because it's based on a grudge.
The police department is justupset that the judge made them
look bad on television like thatand said that they did a poor
job with the investigation.
So I think that they're justdetermined to prove that they
were right all along.
Shortly after the one-yearanniversary of Azaria's death,

(34:12):
constable Charlewood arrives atthe Chamberlain's home on the
Sabbath along with several otherofficers and a search warrant
claiming that new forensicevidence has recently come to
light.
Search warrant claiming thatnew forensic evidence has
recently come to light,resulting in the investigation
being reopened.
The moment the press catch windof this, the media firestorm
surrounding the family isinstantly reignited like a

(34:36):
Molotov cocktail, shatteringover a propane-soaked haystack
sprinkled in gunpowder.
That was the biggest explosionI could think of.
Sprinkled in gunpowder that wasthe biggest explosion I could
think of.
Though the details of thesupposed evidence remain hidden
from the public, lindy learnsthe truth during her car ride
with Constable Charlwood.

I've never asked you this before, but
did you kill your baby?
If I answer that question, I'llbe giving you an interview, and
my lawyer has advised me not tospeak to you alone.

Ashley (35:04):
No, I deny the giving you an interview and my lawyer
has advised me not to speak toyou alone.
No, I don't know.

Chamberlain's Lawyer (35:07):
The conversation never took place,
can't?
It's just between you and me,did you?
Kill your baby, oh come on IfI'd done it.

why invent such an unbelievable
story about a dingo?
Don't sell yourself short.
You're crediting me with theperfect murder.
You're crediting me with theperfect murder.
The baby's clothes have beenexamined by Professor Cameron in
London.
Oh, I didn't know there were anydingo experts in London.

Ashley (35:40):
He's a world-class forensic scientist.
He found a handprint on thejumpsuit.
It was made when it was wetwith blood.
It's a world-class forensicscientist.
He found a handprint on thejumpsuit.
It was made when it was wetwith blood.

It's a small female hand.
Oh well then I'm back in thehot seat aren't I?

Remi (35:56):
We soon learn that Professor Cameron, who is
described as one of the world'sleading forensic pathologists,
has presented ultravioletphotographs which he claims show
that Azaria was being held by ahuman hand while she was still
bleeding.

Ashley (36:12):
Spoiler alert, since I don't think I mentioned this in
my part.
This quote-unquote bloodyhandprint later turns out to
just be dried sand.

Remi (36:22):
Well, this evidence is supposedly backed up by the
discovery of arterial sprayinside the Chamberlain's vehicle
, which investigators say isconsistent with blood spray from
a cut throat.

Ashley (36:36):
It's like the blood spray that your heart this is
kind of graphic that your heartwould pump out as it was still
bleeding.

Remi (36:44):
At the second inquest, lindy Chamberlain is committed
for trial and formally chargedwith murdering her 10-week-old
daughter, with Michael alsobeing charged as an accessory.
After the fact, the fact Stilldevastated by the loss of their
daughter, these latest chargesleave Michael with a severe

(37:04):
crisis of faith, as he cannotunderstand why God would allow
them to suffer any further.
Yet in the midst of everything,michael and Lindy still cling
to their original plans ofgrowing their family and
continue trying for anotherchild.
During this time, theChamberlains are relentlessly
hounded by the press, withreporters following their every

(37:27):
move and news helicopters evencircling their home.
The prosecution's case hingeson an almost impossibly
implausible scenario.
So buckle up, folks.
According to the prosecution,lindy returned to the tent
shortly after putting Azariadown, changed into tracksuit

(37:48):
pants, carried her to the familycar, slit her throat with nail
scissors and decapitated her,stuffed the body into a camera
bag, cleaned herself and the carof every trace of blood, paused
to feed one of her otherchildren, a can of baked beans,
changed back out of thetracksuit, sprinkled blood
around the tent to stage thescene and then calmly rejoined

(38:11):
the barbecue as if nothing hadever happened all within the
span of just 10 minutes.

Ashley (38:18):
And for no reason at all , just because she felt like
killing that day.

Remi (38:23):
Yeah, there's no motive here at all.
This is a preposterous story.
I can't believe anyone was evenconsidering that this could
have happened.
This is nuts.

Ashley (38:34):
The defense ends up calling a lot of character
witnesses at their trial to showthat Lindy was a very loving,
attentive mom.
They even called her OBGYN, whosaid no signs of postpartum, no
concern that she would havehurt the baby, no reason she
would have done so.

Remi (38:54):
The televised trial is set for September in Darwin, at
which time Lindy will be sevenmonths pregnant.
When the day arrives, theChamberlains are once again
swarmed by the press, joinedthis time by a hostile crowd of
locals gathered just to boo andjeer Lindy.
So that's nice people.

Ashley (39:15):
I think I saw a clip of this somewhere, but is this
where the girls are wearingt-shirts that says like
exonerate the dingo, orsomething like that?

Remi (39:24):
Yeah, there's a lot of that sort of thing.
There is also a scene whereLindy is talking on the
telephone to another member ofher family and a random woman
comes out of nowhere and justspits in her face and then walks
away and it's super fucked upin the context of the story, but
I couldn't help but think thatis a random extra that spit in

(39:47):
Meryl Streep's face on film.

Ashley (39:50):
Well, in real life, there was a group of teenage
girls or young adult women thatdid show up to court wearing
those t-shirts.

Remi (39:57):
There's always people like that that show up to these big
televised trials.
Over the following weeks,multiple witnesses and forensic
experts testify as the public'sopinion of Lindy continues to
plummet Not because of anycompelling evidence against her,
mind you, but simply because ofher demeanor in court.

(40:20):
Through it all, an extremelypregnant Lindy maintains her
composure the best she can byrefusing to let the increasing
public scrutiny get the betterof her.
Michael, on the other hand, hasbecome a shattered shell of his
former self due to the ordealcausing him to struggle badly on

(40:42):
the stand and allowing theprosecution ample opportunity to
dismantle his testimony.
Lindy's testimony follows next,stretching on for several days
and forcing her to relive thefinal moments she last saw her
baby girl, over and over with.

You say the blood on the parka must
have come from the baby.
Yes, when it was in the dog'smouth Somewhere around that time
.
But what other time could ithave come from the baby?
Look, mr Barker, I wasn't there.
I can only go on the evidenceof my own eyes.
We're talking about my babydaughter, not some object.

Ashley (41:56):
I cannot imagine having to retell this story again and
again, and again and again fortwo years to people that don't
believe you and are accusing youof being the perpetrator of
killing an infant.

Remi (42:13):
This would be so infuriating, and she keeps a
level head through this entireordeal and having to go through
every grisly detail about herbaby's death over again and over
again and over again.
This would be so traumatic andmy heart just goes out to this
woman.
This is so horrific and tragicthat she was forced to

(42:36):
experience this, and it's notover yet.
After months of being draggedthrough the mud, and despite all
of the evidence against herbeing repeatedly debunked, along
with the judge seemingly sidingwith the defense, the jury
still come to the unanimousverdict that Lindy Chamberlain

(42:57):
is guilty of murdering herdaughter Azaria.
She is sentenced to life inprison with hard labor, meaning
that she would be required toperform physically demanding
work as added punishment beyondher incarceration.
Michael is also found guilty ofbeing an accessory, but the

(43:18):
judge suspends his 18-monthsentence on a three-year bond,
citing the need for him toremain with their children While
serving her sentence.
Lindy petitions the NorthernTerritory government to allow
her to keep her unborn childwith her after its birth, but
her request is denied, so she isonly permitted to hold her

(43:40):
newborn baby girl for a singlehour before it is taken away
from her.
More time passes, with bothLindy and Michael losing their
high court appeals, which isbasically Australia's version of
the Supreme Court.
Then, in an unexpected twist offate, a pair of park rangers
investigating a climber's fatalfall from Ayers Rock stumble

(44:04):
across Azaria's missing matineejacket, the very one Lindy had
insisted her daughter waswearing the night.
She disappeared more than fiveand a half years earlier.
Shortly after this discovery,lindy is released from prison on
compassionate grounds whichI've never heard of before, and

(44:24):
she is allowed to finally returnhome to her family, where she
is greeted not only by Michaeland the children, but also the
entire neighborhood, who haveall lined the streets to show
their support.

Ashley (44:36):
We have compassionate release here in the States.
Usually it's reserved ifsomeone has like a terminal
illness or something and, youknow, maybe not much longer on
their sentence or they're not adanger, the judge can release
them under compassion.
In this case it was becausethey were going to do a
reinvestigation of it andclearly the court was like she

(44:58):
didn't do it.
Guys, she's going to bereleased until this former
inquiry is completed.

That weekend when Lindy attends
church, she is met with astanding ovation as she steps to
the podium, overcome withgratitude, and addresses the
congregation.
Words are totally inadequate tosay how we feel, to express our
gratitude for your love andyour care and your prayers.
It reaches out to us like ablanket, surrounds us.
It's totally tangible.

(45:38):
The fight for justice has onlyjust started.
You may think it's over, but,believe me, it's only just
beginning and it's not only forus, for our freedom and to clear
our name, but it's for allAustralians.
We never want to see thishappen in Australia again.

(45:59):
God bless you all.

Remi (46:03):
As the Chamberlains leave church, they are immediately
swarmed once again by reporters,with one asking why the family
continues to fight even afterLindy was finally set free.

Ashley (46:16):
It's such a dumb question Like do you want to
still be charged with murder?
No, it's such a dumb questionLike do you want to still be
charged with murder?
No, Just because you're free,if you're still a convicted
murderer, your whole life isimpacted.

Remi (46:27):
Well, michael responds by saying I don't think a lot of
people realize how importantinnocence is to innocent people.
Before the closing credits welearn that on September 15th
1988, eight years after thedisappearance of their baby,
azaria Lindy and MichaelChamberlain finally won the

(46:48):
fight to prove their innocence.
All three judges of theNorthern Territory Court of
Appeals exonerated theChamberlains of all charges.
The fight to restore theirlives continues.
And that was Fred Shapisi'sEvil Angels, or A Cry in the
Dark.
Any initial reactions?

(47:08):
Ashley.

Ashley (47:10):
I do want to say that if anyone is interested in
watching this movie, it'sactually available for free on
YouTube, so you can jump on thatsite and turn it on when you're
done listening to this podcast,if you just are craving more
Meryl, which everyone could usemore Meryl in their lives.

Remi (47:27):
It is a very good film, so I recommend if anyone is
interested.
I was fortunate enough to getto watch this for free on
YouTube.
I wish there were more moviesfor free on YouTube, but it is a
very well-made film and MerylStreep is, as always,
astonishing.

Ashley (47:42):
One initial thought I have is we've talked a lot about
Meryl in this, and I was alsoreally happy to see Sam Neill of
Jurassic Park.

Remi (47:53):
He played Dr Alan Grant.
Yeah, sam Neill would later goon to global fame starring in
the Jurassic Park franchise, andI will always have a soft spot
for him in the film EventHorizon, which I saw as a teen
and really scared the shit outof me.
He's a brilliant actor.
We also saw him in the Pianonot too long ago.

Ashley (48:15):
I'm trying to be careful with my words here because I
don't want to give too much awaybefore we get to my section and
the verdict.
But from my initial takeawaysfrom this film.
It seems like it was a verywell shot, well directed and
also well edited movie, and I amjust really impressed with what
I know and how much wasportrayed in this film.

(48:37):
Also, I very much appreciatethe obvious care they took when
telling this story.
This is a family that waspersecuted by the media for
years, decades even, and itreally seems that everyone
involved tried to take a lot ofcare to not have this be another
instance of that.

Remi (48:58):
Well, I do know that everyone involved with the
making of this film were all intotal agreement that the
Chamberlains did not commit thiscrime, but unfortunately that
wasn't the case for everybody.

Ashley (49:12):
This is also a case, and we have several of these in
America and probably all overthe world.
But I'm really a big advocatein the countries that have
trials done with three judgesand there has to be a unanimous
consensus, or at least amajority ruling to decide guilt
or innocence.
There's just too much in myopinion that could go wrong with

(49:36):
leaving it up to a jury.
Juries are people.
We have emotions and a lot ofthe times, especially when it
comes to the death of avulnerable person, I just don't
see how anyone can take emotionsout of it.

Remi (49:53):
And it is made very clear in the film that both judges
during the inquiries do notthink that the Chamberlains are
guilty.
But the jury is swayed by, Idon't know, the charisma of the
prosecution, or maybe stuff theyhad read in the press before
even starting the inquiry.

(50:13):
So yeah, I think I do agreewith you in that regard.

Ashley (50:17):
And it sounds like you enjoyed this movie.
It's one you'd recommend.

Remi (50:20):
I would recommend this film.
I don't know if enjoy is theright word for it.
Every time I recommend a filmon this podcast, I am hesitant
to say that I enjoyed it, but itis a very, very well-made film
and, like I said before, merylStreep is phenomenal, as always.
It's worth a watch just for herperformance alone.

Ashley (50:40):
Well, I'm sure that some critics had something to say
about her performance In fact Iknow they did.
So let's get into the releaseof the film.

Remi (50:49):
On Rotten Tomatoes, the film holds a 94% rating based on
31 reviews with no criticalconsensus, which is pretty rare.
I think the Town that DreadedSundown may be the last film
that we covered that didn't havea critical consensus.
Evil Angels was released lessthan two months after the

(51:10):
Chamberlains were officiallyexonerated by the Northern
Territory Court of Appeals.
Despite the film's criticalacclaim, many Australians were
outraged upon its release, withlarge portions of the public
still unwaveringly convinced ofthe Chamberlain's guilt, which
is just crazy to me.
They're just basing this onseeing them on the news and not

(51:32):
trusting them.

Ashley (51:35):
Around this time there was a poll taken.
I actually think it was shortlybefore she got released, but
the country was basically split.
It was like 49% thought she wasinnocent and 51% thought she
was guilty.

Remi (51:48):
Well.
As a result, evil Angels earnedjust over $3 million at the
Australian box office and $6.9million worldwide, where it was
released as A Cry in the Dark,ultimately falling short of its
15 million dollar budget.
So this was a flop and I feellike a lot of people have kind
of forgotten about this movie,which is probably why it's

(52:10):
available for free on YouTube.
The Chamberlains wereeventually shown the film and
while Sam Neill recalled thatthe experience was painful for
them, they responded positivelyoverall, with Neill noting that
the experience was painful forthem.
They responded positivelyoverall, with Neill noting that
Michael Chamberlain, whom heportrays in the film, had even
been moved to tears.
By the end, the film swept the1989 AFI Awards winning Best

(52:34):
Film, best Director, bestAdapted Screenplay, best Actor
and Best Actress.
Meryl Streep went on to receivean Academy Award and Golden
Globe Award nomination for BestActress, though she lost both to
Jodie Foster in the Accusedthat is another movie we have on
our list to cover eventually.

Ashley (52:54):
It is one I have seen and it is a very, very, very
tough watch and it is a very,very, very tough watch.

Remi (53:04):
Streep initially planned on playing Ava Peron in the
cinematic adaptation of themusical Evita, with Oliver Stone
directing, as her next project.
When that fell through, Streeppivoted to a perplexing role as
a romance novelist named MaryFisher in the 1989 Roseanne Barr
comedy She-Devil have you everseen She-Devil Ashley?

Ashley (53:26):
I have not and, given that it is associated with
Roseanne Barr, I think I'm goingto pass.

Remi (53:32):
It is not a good movie.
I distinctly remember when Iwas growing up Meryl Streep was
going through a phase where shewas just in a lot of weird dark
comedies for several years and Iactually saw this film because
my mom was a Roseanne fan, butnot a recommend for that movie
at all.

Ashley (53:51):
I did like the show Roseanne back in the day, don't
get me wrong.
It's just all of thecontroversy that has come to
pass with her in more recentyears that I can't support.

Remi (54:02):
Well, she plays a woman married to a man who leaves her
for Meryl Streep, and the entirefilm is her getting revenge on
Meryl Streep through varioustactics.
Though She-Devil underperformed, streep did finally get her
sing-on in musicals such asMamma Mia and Into the Woods.
Over her career, streep went onto set the record for the most

(54:29):
Academy Award nominations of anyactor, with 21 in total,
finally winning for a third timein 2012 for her portrayal of
Margaret Thatcher in the IronLady, which is, hands down, the
worst Iron man sequel.

Ashley (54:40):
Ba-dum-bum in the Iron Lady which is hands down the
worst Iron man sequel.

Remi (54:42):
I also find it crazy that she didn't win any other Oscars
between the early 80s to 2012and she was nominated so many
times and she ended up winningfor the Iron Lady Like come on,
dude.
She was in doubt.
Devil Wears Prada.
There were so many betterperformances Throughout the
years.
Evil Angel's most enduringlegacy has been its association

(55:03):
with the phrase the dingo ate mybaby, a line never actually
said in the film.
What started off as a tragiccry for help was eventually
reduced to a pop culturepunchline, with the misquote
turning into a running joke inTV shows like Frasier,

(55:27):
supernatural, the Simpsons andof course, seinfeld.

(55:49):
It has also been referenced infilms like Tropic Thunder.
You know, that's a true story.

Chamberlain's Lawyer (55:56):
Lady loves the kid you about to cross some
fucking lines.
Guys relax, you know what?

Fuck that man.

Ashley (56:03):
Wow, that Simpsons one is just horrendous.

Remi (56:09):
It is pretty offensive.
I remember finding it funny atthe time, but now, being aware
of the backstory, it's prettydistasteful.

Ashley (56:18):
It is very distasteful.
Not only was this family putthrough the wringer, their lives
were ruined.
This couple did not survivethis.
These kids, while this was allgoing on, were ridiculed in
school.
Other kids would tease themsaying why did your mom kill
your sister?
This family was ripped apartbecause of this tragedy and it's

(56:40):
just treated like a joke.

Remi (56:42):
Well, despite the misquote .
In 2005, the American FilmInstitute nominated the phrase
the Dingo Took my Baby for itslist of the 100 Greatest Movie
Quotes.
A few years later, in 2008, afialso ranked Evil Angels ninth
on its 10 top 10 list of thegreatest courtroom dramas of all

(57:07):
time.

Ashley (57:08):
Wow, it's shocking that made the list.
10 is not a lot.

Remi (57:12):
There's a ton of courtroom dramas masterful job of
capturing the public's opinionon things.
It's very smooth, it's notjarring and it is done very,
very well.
I think it's the best film I'veseen that accurately portrays

(57:33):
how the public is reacting tothe trial in real time.
As shown in the film, touristswere once allowed to walk on and
even inside Ayers Rock, nowmore commonly known as Uluru,
though the native Aboriginepeople of Australia had long
regarded it as a sacred site.
Over the years, incidents suchas public nudity, golfing and

(57:55):
even a strip tease on top ofUluru sparked public controversy
, and by 2018, 37 deaths fromrecreational climbing had been
recorded.
On November 1, 2017, the UluruNational Park Board voted
unanimously to ban climbing, adecision that officially took

(58:16):
effect on October 26, 2019,ensuring Uluru would finally be
honored as the sacred site ithad always been.
And that was Fred Shapisi'sEvil Angels or A Cry in the Dark
, which is only one side of thisstory, the film's version of
the events, ashley.

(58:37):
I look forward to seeing howclose this resembles what
actually happened.

Ashley (58:43):
I think you all are in for quite the surprise.
Alice Lynn Murchison, knownthroughout her life as Lindy,
was born in Wakatane, newZealand, on March 4th 1948.

(59:05):
Her childhood was marked byfrequent moves, since her father
, a Seventh-day Adventist pastor, was often assigned to new
churches.
In November 1969, lindy marriedMichael Chamberlain, another
pastor in the Adventist church.

Remi (59:22):
So her father and husband were both pastors.

Ashley (59:26):
The couple spent five years in Tasmania where Michael
led local congregations andworked on public health
campaigns, particularlyanti-smoking initiatives
initiatives.
Lindy embraced her role as aminister's wife and used her
training and tailoring fromLaunceston Technical College to
make custom wedding gowns.
And, fun fact, both my weddinggown Remy, you don't know this,

(59:50):
but my wedding gown and myaunt's wedding gown are both
from Australia.

Remi (59:55):
Is Australia known for their wedding dresses.
That seems like a crazycoincidence.

Ashley (01:00:00):
Like her father, Michael was frequently reassigned to
parishes across Australia.
In February 1980, they moved toMount Isa in northern
Queensland.
By then they had two sons,six-year-old Aiden and
four-year-old Reagan.
The family was completed withthe birth of Azaria on June 11,
1980.
The family was completed withthe birth of Azaria on June 11,

(01:00:22):
1980.
Just nine weeks later, theChamberlain set out for a
camping trip to Ayers Rock,today known as Uluru, near Alice
Springs.
The area was a hugely populartourist spot and attracted more
than 170,000 visitors per year.
The area was also home to over40 dingo lairs.

(01:00:44):
While dingoes are usually leeryof humans, these ones had grown
bold thanks to their years ofliving near staff and tourists,
who fed them scraps and treatedthem more like outdoor pets than
wild animals.

Remi (01:00:56):
In the film all of the dingoes are kind of going up to
the tourists and all thetourists seem really amazed by
this, like wow, a dingo is justcoming up to us.
So that makes a lot of sensethat the tourists would not be
expecting that sort of behavior.
And at Ayers Rock the dingoeshad been conditioned to just go

(01:01:17):
up to people because they'd befed.

Ashley (01:01:19):
Chief Ranger Derek Roth raised concerns about this
growing problem and pushed forfences around popular
campgrounds, and his worriesweren't unfounded.
In 1980 alone, there were atleast nine reported cases of
dingoes attacking young childrennear the park.
The Chamberlains arrived at thecampground on the evening of
August 16th.

(01:01:39):
The Chamberlains arrived at thecampground on the evening of
August 16th.
They spent the afternoonexploring nearby landmarks like
Chicken Rock, Maggie Springs andthe Fertility Cave, before
returning for the evening around6 o'clock.

Remi (01:01:52):
And in the movie they did actually film at Ayers Rock
because it was before the banwas enforced and it is pretty
breathtaking.

Ashley (01:02:02):
There were multiple dingo sightings throughout the
day, including several at thecampground itself.
Lindy spent the next few hourspreparing her children for bed,
tending to her newborn andchatting with nearby campers.
Around 8 o'clock she laidAzaria in her bassinet and
returned to the grill area tocook Aiden a bedtime snack.

(01:02:23):
She left the tent flap open,since she planned to put him to
bed when she finished.
About 20 minutes later, camperJudy West heard a low growl near
the Chamberlain's tent.
Roughly 10 minutes after that,another camper named Sally Lowe
heard the unmistakable cry of ababy.
Another camper named Sally Loweheard the unmistakable cry of a
baby.
As Lindy walked back to the tent, she caught sight of a dingo

(01:02:45):
scurrying away In the low light.
She didn't notice if anythingwas in its mouth.
She rushed inside and shoutedthe words that would echo
through history for decades tocome my God, the dingoes got my
baby.
The campsite was immediatelythrust into chaos and panic

(01:03:07):
Campers grabbed flashlights andfanned out across the dark
desert.
Within the hour, 200 to 300people were searching for baby
Azaria, even forming a humanchain to make sure no patch of
ground went overlooked.

Remi (01:03:19):
This is depicted in the film as well.

Ashley (01:03:22):
It's pretty impressive.
They said they covered likehalf a mile or something of
ground with this chain.

Remi (01:03:28):
It looked pretty thorough.
They had everyone lined upabout five to six feet apart,
everyone had flashlights andthey were all walking at the
exact same pace, just scanningthe areas around them.
It was a very thorough search,at least as thorough as one
could be in the middle of theAustralian outback in the middle
of the night.

Ashley (01:03:49):
Two campers found Constable Frank Morris and
brought him to the scene, wherehe quickly alerted three park
rangers.
When Morris inspected the tent,he noticed blood speckled and
smeared on the bedding, as wellas dingo tracks around the
entrance.
He followed the tracks untilthey faded out by the road.

Remi (01:04:08):
This seems like a pretty cut-and-dry case to me.

Ashley (01:04:13):
By 9.30 or 10, five expert aboriginal trackers
arrived.
Maury Habe, a fellow camper andamateur tracker, followed the
trail to a sand dune where henoticed several places that
looked as though a knitted weavebundle was briefly set down and
dragged.
The tracks eventuallydisappeared in a parking lot.

(01:04:33):
Michael Chamberlainperiodically joined in on search
efforts between returning tocomfort his distraught wife.
Around midnight a group ofcampers convinced the couple to
stay at a nearby hotel for therest of the night, since there
was not much else anyone coulddo.

Remi (01:04:50):
This is also depicted in the film, and the campers also
pay for their room for the night.

Ashley (01:04:56):
Oh, that's nice.
They gathered a few necessitiesand planned to get the rest the
next morning.
Despite the massive searcheffort, no trace of Azaria was
found.
News about the disappearancespread quickly the next morning.
Two investigators, InspectorGilroy and Sergeant Lincoln,
interviewed the Chamberlains,but doubts crept in almost

(01:05:19):
immediately.
Interviewed the Chamberlains,but doubts crept in almost
immediately.
Michael unsettled them withcomments about Azaria's
disappearance and possible death.
Being a quote will of God,Lindy also seemed too calm and
had trouble laying out a precisetimeline of events.

Remi (01:05:34):
I think a lot of people started to question them when
they seemingly accepted the fateof their child relatively
quickly.

Ashley (01:05:44):
Also sorry she can't give you exact timelines when
this happened.
She is camping, there are nocell phones, there's certainly
no clocks around and she'sprobably not examining her watch
if she even has one everysecond of every day.

Remi (01:05:57):
Not to mention the second that this event happens.
All the other details aboutwhat you were doing beforehand
probably go right out the window.

Ashley (01:06:06):
Exactly, and she's probably still in shock and
sleep deprived.

Remi (01:06:10):
Seriously, you cannot expect an accurate account from
this woman at this time.

Ashley (01:06:16):
Adding to their suspicion.
No independent witnesses hadcome forward yet to confirm
seeing the baby at the campsite,but they also hadn't asked
anyone either.
Some officers even questionedwhether a dingo could physically
carry a 10-pound infant, thoughpark rangers assured them it
was entirely possible possible.

(01:06:42):
In between two policeinterviews, the Chamberlain
spent most of the morningtalking with news outlets,
reportedly on the advice of apolice officer who told them it
was better to speak openly thanto avoid the press.
One journalist even convincedMichael to drive the family back
to the campsite so they couldphotograph him standing in front
of the tent another actionpolice privately noted as
suspicious.

Lindy Chamberlain (01:07:14):
And here's a clip from one of their
interviews.
That day and when I got in thetent, there was just nothing and
I called for my husband Ireally couldn't believe the
evidence in my own eyes and Icalled for Michael that Dingo's
got the baby.

A Cry in the Dark scene (01:07:31):
A cold shiver went up my spine.
I thought this is absolutelyridiculous and I rushed into the
tent and we looked aroundquickly and couldn't see
anything.
I thought my hat and I rushedout into the blackness and I
felt as hopeless as I'd everfelt in my life.

Ashley (01:07:47):
This family is just so pure.
I love how he said and Ithought to myself my hat Because
he doesn't want to say God'sname in vain.

Remi (01:07:55):
There is a part in the film where the news helicopters
are circling the Chamberlain'shome and Lindy is just
distressed and Michael is tryingto calm her down and he gets so
mad at the helicopters.
He yells you bastards at themand then immediately goes to
Lindy and begins apologizinglike I'm sorry, honey, I didn't

(01:08:18):
mean to use such language, butit's the only word that
accurately describes them rightnow Like he was even upset that
he used the word bastards in asituation like that.
He's a very wholesome guy nosmoking, no drinking.
Very, very straight edge.

Ashley (01:08:35):
Before heading home.
On August 19th, theChamberlains were asked to visit
another campground to see ifthey could identify any of the
wild dogs there.
The Chamberlains were asked tovisit another campground to see
if they could identify any ofthe wild dogs there, but none of
them were dingoes.
During the visit, michael askedConstable Morris several
questions, some of which seemedin poor taste.
Could he take a photograph withthe trackers?
Could he see a skull of a deaddingo?

(01:08:57):
Would Alice Springs considerputting up a memorial in
Azaria's honor?
Soon after, under orders fromthe Conservation Commission, all
scavenging dogs and dingoeswere to be shot so their stomach
contents could be analyzed.

Remi (01:09:12):
This is also in the film.

Ashley (01:09:15):
This news troubled Les Harris, president of the Dingo
Foundation.
Through his job, he studied thehabits of dingoes for years and
kept two as companions in hishome.
He calls Inspector Gilroydirectly, warning that the plan
was pointless since anypotential human remains would
have been digested within 10-24hours.

Remi (01:09:35):
He also spoke about dingoes' manipulating abilities
In the film.
It shows that the Chamberlainsare also against this idea.

Ashley (01:09:42):
He also spoke about Dingo's manipulating abilities,
in that they could easily peeloff and discard anything that
was not perceived as food.
His warning about the emptystomachs proved accurate, but
the elimination process wentforward anyway.
Not long after the case washanded over to Detective
Trollwood, head of the CriminalInvestigation Unit.

(01:10:05):
In his case summary, inspectorGilroy listed a series of points
he felt undermined Lindy'sstory.
He cited unfounded reports thatLindy was a neglectful mother
who dressed her baby in allblack, rumors that no one
actually saw Azaria at thecampground and speculation that
she might have been carryingaround an empty bundle of cloth

(01:10:27):
all day.

Remi (01:10:28):
That is just preposterous.
Somebody would notice if shewas just carrying around a pile
of rags all day.

Ashley (01:10:36):
He even claimed the name Azaria meant.
Quote sacrifice in thewilderness.

Remi (01:10:42):
Now they're just making shit up.
That can't possibly be true.

Ashley (01:10:47):
In reality, the masculine version of the name
means whom God aids.

Remi (01:10:53):
Yeah, that sounds a lot more accurate.

Ashley (01:10:56):
Gilroy also suggested the puncture marks found on the
blankets in the tent looked morelike they'd been made by a
knife than animal teeth.
This marked a shift in focus inthe investigation from a dingo
attack to the possibility ofhuman involvement.

Remi (01:11:11):
So this was him just visually, stating that it looked
different than dingo teeth,like he just looked at it and
said looks like knife marks.

Ashley (01:11:21):
At this point.
Yep, just his opinion on whatit looks like.

Remi (01:11:24):
That's outrageous.

Ashley (01:11:26):
A break in the case arrived on August 24th 1980.
Wally Goodwin was hiking AyersRock with his family when he
stumbled upon a shredded diaperand blood-stained singlet.
He considered taking a photo ofthe clothing but decided
against it, something he wouldsoon regret.
The clothing was found aboutsix kilometers away from the

(01:11:47):
campsite, but in the oppositedirection of the search area.
Crucially, it was also nearseveral dingo layers, including
one with a recent litter.
When Constable Morris arrivedhe picked up the singlet and
discovered two booties tuckedinto each leg.
He assured Goodwin he would putthe clothing back exactly as he

(01:12:08):
found it, but Goodwinimmediately noticed it was not
placed the same way.
Instead it was returned in aneater folded manner this is not
explained, as small as it mayhave seemed at the time, would

(01:12:30):
later be twisted into evidenceof guilt at the Chamberlain's
inquests and trial.
At this point nearly all ofAzaria's clothing had been
recovered, except for thematinee jacket Lindy insisted
she was wearing over the singlet.
This absence became acornerstone of the prosecution's
case.
Since this was the only articleof clothing still missing, the

(01:12:54):
prosecution believed Lindy liedabout its existence entirely.
The Chamberlains learned aboutthe discovery of the clothing
through the media, a patternthat would become commonplace
for them throughout the rest ofthe investigation.

Remi (01:13:07):
Could you imagine finding out all of this information just
watching the evening news?

Ashley (01:13:12):
It would be so awful.
I do know that currently thereis extra care taken to make sure
families are notified of bignews developments like this, to
avoid this exact scenario.

Remi (01:13:26):
As it should be.

Ashley (01:13:28):
Well, and TV stations even broadcast footage of the
torn bloody clothing over audioclips of the Chamberlain
speaking, further fueling asense of suspicion and spectacle
.

Were you surprised Azaria's clothing
was found hardly torn?

No, not really Not having watched wild
bingoes feed on cattle andthings like that.
They use their feet like handsand pull back the skin as they
go, and they'll just peel itlike an orange.

Remi (01:13:56):
This is also in the film.
I feel like I'm an echo chamberover here and I also want to
point out that with these clips,it's the first time I've seen
any footage of Lindy during thetime that all of this was
transpiring, and Meryl Streepdefinitely captured her essence
very well in her look anddemeanor and poise.

(01:14:19):
It's pretty uncanny.

Ashley (01:14:21):
The haircut is the exact same.

Remi (01:14:24):
The eyebrows as well.
Meryl Streep pointed that outin several interviews that she
had her eyebrows pluckedspecifically the way that Lindy
did, because they are plucked ina manner that kind of gives her
a cold exterior.
They're very flat.

Ashley (01:14:39):
Rumors about the family swirled almost immediately.
Harassing phone calls andvisits from strangers became an
everyday occurrence.
Tabloids repeated wildaccusations about Azaria's name
meaning sacrifice in thewilderness, Lindy and Michael
slaying her in some kind ofritual, them somehow being
connected to the Jonestownmassacre, and even that the baby

(01:15:01):
hadn't existed at all.
Rather than bringing clarity,the discovery of the clothing
fueled an atmosphere ofhostility and doubt.
Forensic testing on Azaria'sclothing and blankets continued
throughout September.
Samples were passed around tomultiple labs across the country
, immediately creating chain ofcustody issues that would be

(01:15:22):
ignored by the prosecution.

Remi (01:15:24):
What is a chain of custody ?

Ashley (01:15:27):
It's like you're taking care to not contaminate evidence
as it's being transferredthrough hands or from place to
place.

Remi (01:15:33):
Okay, so the more places it's sent, the more likelihood
of contamination.
Exactly it sent, the morelikelihood of contamination.

Ashley (01:15:40):
Exactly.
One of the first specialistsbrought in was Kenneth Brown, an
expert in human bite markanalysis, which I will know has
since been debunked.
Dr Brown was not trained intextile damage but reviewed
Azaria's clothing and concludedthe tears looked more like cuts
from a sharp instrument thanpunctures from dingo teeth.

(01:16:01):
Sergeant Barry Cox, who had noforensic training at all, agreed
and conducted his own makeshiftexperiments using a pair of
scissors to show he couldreproduce similar-looking cuts.
No doubt this took him severaltries to perfect.
To further test their theories,dr Brown proposed an experiment

(01:16:22):
After withholding food fromcaptive dingoes for five days,
handlers gave them an animalcarcass wrapped in fabric
similar to Azaria's clothing.

Remi (01:16:33):
What the fuck kind of test is this?
They're starving dingoes forfive days.

Ashley (01:16:38):
And after three attempts the damage they left behind
didn't match the marks on hergarments.

Remi (01:16:44):
Because they were starving .

Ashley (01:16:47):
From this, dr Brown concluded the clothing was
inconsistent with the dingoattack, and other experts
weighed in as well.
Dr Harding examined hairs foundin the tent and Azaria's
clothing.
It was his opinion that none ofthem were canine.
Two other biologists thoughtthey were likely from a
household pet, but couldn't ruleout the possibility they were

(01:17:10):
from a dingo.

Remi (01:17:12):
Did the Chamberlains have a household pet?
That was never shown in thefilm.

Ashley (01:17:20):
So they had a couple cats and a dog in recent years,
but by the time Azaria was comearound, the animals had died or
gotten lost, like ran away andnever came back.

Remi (01:17:28):
So they did not currently have any pets in which this hair
would have come from.

Ashley (01:17:33):
Not at the time.
No, A botanist examined soilsamples from the clothing and
identified seven different plantspecies, which might make sense
if a body was dragged a longdistance, but in his view the
soil wasn't consistent with thesite where the clothes were
found.
To him it looked staged, likethe clothing was rubbed in dirt

(01:17:55):
and deliberately placed at therecovery spot, probably because
he thought it was folded ratherthan discarded, as Wally Goodwin
insisted he found it.
Initially.
Investigators also wanted totest the fabric for dingo saliva
.
This task fell to Dr AndrewScott.
The problem was that dingoesdon't carry the same enzyme used

(01:18:17):
to detect human saliva, whichmeant the standard method was
useless.
Dr Scott attempted to getaround this by inventing an
entirely new testing method, onethat tried to replicate
proteins.
In the same way, species offish are identified.
His work was experimental andunproven.
Nonetheless, he concluded, notraces of dingo saliva were

(01:18:41):
found on Azaria's clothes.

Remi (01:18:43):
You can really find a quote-unquote expert to testify
about anything in a trial.

Ashley (01:18:51):
Those are called hired guns.
By the end of September theChamberlains were summoned to
the police station forquestioning.
Sergeant Charlewood was deeplysuspicious of them even
entertaining the idea thatAzaria could have been killed
days before she was reportedmissing.
Over two days of interrogationhe pressed them on the forensic

(01:19:12):
findings, but Lindy andMichael's accounts never wavered
.
As news of an impending inquestspread in November, dingo expert
Les Harris tried yet again tointervene.
He sent letters to the AliceSprings Court and Chamberlain's
lawyers outlining several keypoints.
First, he explained that bloodpatterns on the clothing could

(01:19:36):
absolutely be consistent with adingo attack absolutely be
consistent with the dingo attack.
Second, he noted that dingoesare efficient eaters and not
heavy salivators.
So the absence of saliva wasn'tsurprising, especially if
Azaria was wearing that matineejacket over the singlet.
Third, dingoes are more thancapable of carrying prey up to

(01:19:56):
20 pounds long distances.
Finally, he highlighted theflaws in Dr Brown's zoo
experiment, pointing out thedifferences between captive and
wild dingoes, especially thoseat Arrows Rock that had grown
accustomed to people butmaintained their hunting
instincts.
He ended his letter with theunequivocal conclusion that a

(01:20:17):
dingo could have taken andkilled the baby.
Equivocal conclusion that adingo could have taken and
killed the baby.
A formal inquest began onDecember 15th 1980 and ran until
February 20th 1981, whichincluded a holiday break.
This is a sharp contrast to thesecond one, which we'll get to
in a second that was only 10days.

Remi (01:20:35):
Wow, yeah, the film does not really give any indication
about how much time has passed,so I really had no clue how long
these trials were.

Ashley (01:20:45):
Australian inquests are overseen by magistrate judges
who determine how theproceedings are run, including
what witnesses to call and inwhat order.
They're kind of like a grandjury trial in the United States.
Normally, if there is even apossibility of serious charges,
a careful magistrate might avoidcompelling witness testimony

(01:21:06):
from the potential accused rightaway, since protections for
those giving evidence is limited.
But in this case theChamberlains were the very first
witnesses called.
By then the family had moved toAvondale College because their
home in Mount Isa had beenoverrun with reporters.
But the hostility followed themto their new setting and, as

(01:21:28):
you pointed out, they both didenroll in formal schooling.
After this first inquest, theChamberlains came across as
heartbroken parents while givingtestimony, not the cold,
suspicious and detached peoplethe media portrayed them to be.
They tearfully recounted theevents of August 17th while
being forced to read theforensic reports that cast doubt

(01:21:51):
on their innocence.
After their testimony, theinquest heard from others who
were at the campsite the nightAzaria disappeared.
These included the Wests andLows Rangers Trackers and Wally
Goodwin, the man who foundAzaria's clothing.
Their statements highlightedhow much was omitted from the
original police reports.

(01:22:12):
Sally Lowe, for instance,recalled hearing the baby cry
from inside the tent, whileanother woman testified about
actually holding Azaria earlierin the day.

Remi (01:22:22):
In the film she's parading Azaria all over the place.
It seems like there would havebeen dozens of witnesses.

Ashley (01:22:29):
As these witnesses spoke , a clear pattern emerged.
Everyone who was at the scenebelieved Adingo was responsible.
It was those who becameinvolved after the fact police
investigators and the public atlarge who were more skeptical.

Remi (01:22:45):
They made up their mind and nothing can convince them
otherwise.

Ashley (01:22:51):
The last set of witnesses were the experts who
conducted the forensic testing.
At first their testimony seemedto support the prosecution, but
the longer they spoke, the moreerrors, inconsistencies and lack
of formal training emerged.
For example, the doctor whoexamined the hairs wasn't told
they were vacuumed beforereaching his lab.

(01:23:13):
This meant he couldn'tdetermine whether the damage to
them meant they were old orcaused by the collection process
.
Other mistakes were even morestriking.
The forensic unit missed spraysof blood inside the tent,
tested soil samples for bloodwhen they should have tested it
for saliva and misidentifiedcertain fibers as animal hairs

(01:23:36):
when they weren't.
In the end, the magistrate wasmore persuaded by the
eyewitnesses than the shakyforensic work.
He pointed out that none of theon-scene witnesses had any
connection to the Chamberlains.
They had no motive or reason toinvent a story about a dingo.
This ruling was the firstinquest finding to be broadcast

(01:23:57):
live, and this is largelybecause the judge was so upset
over the rumors that werecirculating that he wanted to
make it very known that this ismy finding, to have no way for
it to be disputed.

Judge's Verdict (real) (01:24:13):
I doth find that Azaria Cantal-Lorraine
Chamberlain, a child then ofnine weeks of age.
Lorraine Chamberlain, a childthen of nine weeks of age, met
her death when attacked by awild dingo.
I further find that neither theparents of the child nor either
of their remaining childrenwere in any degree whatsoever
responsible for this death.

(01:24:34):
I find that, after her death,the body of Azaria was taken
from the dingo and disposed ofby a person or persons name
unknown.

Remi (01:24:46):
That last part is news to me.
They're claiming that a persondid handle the baby's corpse
after it died at some point.

Ashley (01:24:56):
It's his way of saying.
He does think there was somesort of human interference, but
he has no idea who that was.

Remi (01:25:04):
But he is saying the chamberlains had nothing to do
with the death he's completelypositive that a dingo did kill
azaria, but also believes that aperson may have interacted with
the body after the fact and Ithink it's because of that
folded clothing.
Ah, okay.

Ashley (01:25:22):
After a conclusion of the inquest, the Chamberlains
returned to their lives,blissfully unaware of what was
happening behind the scenes.
Rather than accepting theresults of the inquest, a new
police task was formed and theinvestigation went into
overdrive.
The renewed scrutiny began withDr Alan Cameron, a professor of

(01:25:43):
forensic medicine at theUniversity of London and
director of a similar departmentat the London Hospital Medical
College, who specialized ininfant injuries and deaths.
After examining Azaria'sclothing, he concluded the
garments had been cut withscissors and that the blood on
the jumpsuit was consistent witha neck wound.
Supporting him was odontologistBernard Sims, who asserted the

(01:26:07):
punctures on the clothes werethe result of cuts, not animal
teeth.
In keeping with trends, themedia, not the Chamberlains or
their defense team, were thefirst to learn about the renewed
investigation.

Judge's Verdict (film) (01:26:22):
I've got to ask you this I have, from a
police source, been told thatthere is no way a dingo could
have taken your child.
The forensic tests show that.
What's your reaction to that?

No comment.
Is there some other story?
Could an Aboriginal lady haveyour child?
No no.
It was definitely a dingo.
We stand by our story.

Where the clothing was found and the
way it was arranged on theground.
It couldn't have been a dog.
Well, we know nothing of this.

What are the police on the case?
So I'll directly ask thisinterview.
I'm going to ring the ground.
It couldn't have been a dog.
Well, we know nothing of this.
What are the police on the case?

So I'll directly ask this interview.
I'm going to ring up the police.

I want to know.
Well, I can't get hold of asource.
Well, I'm going to Fennelbrookshortly because.

Ring them now if you don't mind.
Ring them now if you don't mind, all right, fine.

You won't tell me, no, I can't do
that, michael.

Remi (01:27:26):
Wow, Wally unintentionally screwed this family to an
insane degree.

Ashley (01:27:32):
Well Constable Morris did by messing with it.
Wally tried.
He told everyone that wouldlisten that clothing was not
photographed the way it wasfound.
But no one believed him.

Remi (01:27:43):
The police force is literally putting their fingers
in their ears and going la, la,la, la la.
I can't hear you anytimesomeone is presenting evidence
that contradicts what theybelieve.

Ashley (01:27:56):
On September 19th 1981, police conducted a four
andand-a-half-hour search of theChamberlain home, seizing more
than 300 items, including theoriginal tent that had since
been returned, clothing,michael's camera bag and a ton
of camping supplies.

Remi (01:28:13):
This is in the film as well and, yeah, they pretty much
raid the family's house andeverything is left in disarray.
Much raid the family's houseand everything is left in
disarray.

Ashley (01:28:21):
Following the search, the Chamberlains again agreed to
go to the police station forquestioning.
During the drive, SergeantCharlwood attempted to elicit a
confession from Lindy.
He claimed a bloody handprintwas found on one of Azaria's
garments and suggested the newevidence showed she was
decapitated rather than killedby a dingo.

Remi (01:28:43):
And I want to point out as well that he was secretly
recording this conversation, washe not?
It was my impression that atthe time it was completely legal
for Australian police to recordpeople during questioning
without their knowledge.

Ashley (01:29:00):
And at the time they would just record everything, so
he had his recorder going onthroughout the entire raid as
well.

Remi (01:29:07):
That is also depicted on screen.

Ashley (01:29:11):
At the station.
He asked the Chamberlains toprovide handprints to compare,
but they refused to cooperatewithout legal counsel.
The next day, the policecommissioner publicly announced
the renewed investigation,reigniting a wave of rumors that
Azaria was slain in some sortof ritual.

Remi (01:29:30):
And I just gotta say again this is based on nothing, just
people having a feeling thatthis happened this way.

Ashley (01:29:39):
The Darwin Supreme Court held a protective hearing on
November 20th 1981.
They ultimately overturned thefindings of the first inquest
and ordered a second to beginthe following month.
The Chamberlain's legal teamfaced significant obstacles
going into the second inquest.
The prosecution refused todisclose the new evidence

(01:30:00):
beforehand, forcing the coupleto make a decision about
testifying before knowing whatthey were up against.
Refusing to testify would leavethem vulnerable to being called
anyway and needing to invoketheir right to remain silent
after every question.
This would undoubtedly beportrayed by the press as an
omission of guilt.

(01:30:21):
In contrast, testifying wouldrisk exposing them to attacks
based on evidence they had neverseen.
The defense asked if theChamberlains could be called
last to allow them to hear allthe evidence first, but their
request was denied.
Ultimately, both chose totestify.
Michael went first and wasquestioned about the supposed

(01:30:44):
blood evidence discovered intheir car in October 1981.
He explained that it could havecome from minor injuries of
their sons or a bleedinghitchhiker they took to the
hospital in June 1979.
Prosecutors also scrutinizedhis behavior during the search
at Ayers Rock, insinuating hislevel of involvement suggested

(01:31:04):
prior knowledge of Azari's death.
When Lindy took the stand, theprosecution pressed her to
provide a handprint framing herprevious refusal as evidence of
guilt.

Remi (01:31:15):
It will be manipulated in some way against her, as all
this other stuff has been.

Ashley (01:31:25):
And privately.
Her attorneys advised her todeny the request, since they
kind of knew whatever theresults were would be twisted to
fit the prosecution's narrative.
From the outset, it becameclear that this inquest was an
ambush.
Before the second day of theinquest resumed, the press was
escorted to the compound wherethey were allowed to take photos
of the Chamberlain's car.
It was completely dismantledwith chalk marks highlighting

(01:31:49):
the areas of the doors, carpetand hinges where blood was
allegedly detected.
The most notable marking wasunder the passenger side
dashboard, where investigatorsclaimed a fine spray of blood
originated from where Azaria'sneck was supposedly cut.
Joy Kuehl, a biologist from theSydney Health Commission,

(01:32:10):
testified that hemoglobinconsistent with infant blood was
found in Michael's camera bagand on a towel in the back of
the car.
However, duringcross-examination she admitted
that other substances such asmilk or vomit two things that
babies are very well known foreating and spewing out could

(01:32:32):
have produced the same reactions.

Remi (01:32:35):
This person's testimony is depicted in the film.

Ashley (01:32:38):
This was the first set of questions that cast doubt on
the reliability of herconclusions.
Next on the stand was SergeantBarry Cox Mr I have Zero
Forensic Training.
He demonstrated how he believedLindy cut Azaria's jumpsuit to
stage it as a dingo attack.
Notably, he used a pair ofscissors much larger and sharper

(01:33:01):
than the tiny ones used to trimnails that the prosecution
suspected was the murder weapon.
Additional witnesses, oftenlacking in expertise with wild
animals, opined that thejumpsuit was cut, not torn,
reflecting no evidence of dingoinvolvement.
Through these testimonies, theprosecution's theory took shape.

(01:33:23):
Lindy cut Azaria's throat inthe family car and told Michael
soon after.
They then put the body in hiscamera bag, buried it later and
cut the clothing to make it looklike an animal tack, as you
pointed out, all in 10 minutes.
And cut the clothing to make itlook like an animal tack, as
you pointed out, all in 10minutes and while this search
was going on.

Remi (01:33:40):
This is so improbable.
It's just infuriating thatthey're even trying to propose
that this happened in thatamount of time, no less.

Ashley (01:33:49):
In their closing arguments, the defense
emphasized the glaring absenceof any eyewitnesses who could
support the Chamberlain'sinnocence.
That's why I think this inquestwas shorter, because anyone who
was at the scene the trackers,the West, the Lowe's not called.
They also pointed out theobvious the prosecution's case
was entirely circumstantial.

(01:34:11):
No one saw the baby die, therewas no body, confirmed murder
weapon or even a motive.
Despite these gaps, the juryconcluded within just two hours
that there was sufficientevidence to move forward with
criminal charges.
In April 1982, lindy wascharged with murder and Michael
as an accessory.

(01:34:31):
After the fact, both pleadednot guilty.
With the trial looming, thedefense immediately began
building their case.
They tracked down thehitchhiker Michael picked up in
July 1979.
He confirmed that theChamberlains took him to the
hospital after he sustained aserious head injury in a car
accident.
They also located hikers whosechildren were attacked by

(01:34:55):
dingoes.
That same year they alsolocated hikers whose children
were attacked by dingoes.
The same year Azaria wentmissing and learned that
Michael's camera bag thecenterpiece of much of the
prosecution's theory was a giftfrom a friend, meaning anything
found inside could have predatedAzaria's birth.
Not long after, the press gotword that Lindy was pregnant,

(01:35:18):
sparking speculation that it wasa calculated attempt to garner
sympathy at trial.
The Chamberlain trial began onSeptember 13, 1982.
To understand the process, it'sworth noting some differences
from trials in the states.
At the time, assessment ofjuror bias was largely
self-monitored.

(01:35:39):
Potential jurors were remindedof their duty to remain
impartial but were not examinedfor possible bias.
The defense could dismiss 12jurors without explanation, but
only after the juror's name wascalled and before they reached
the box, a window of about 40seconds.

Remi (01:35:59):
Wait.
So it was like a beat the clocktype thing.
So they're called, they startapproaching and they have that
window of opportunity to dismissthem.

Ashley (01:36:09):
Yes, and they only have basic information to make the
snap judgment on, like thejuror's name, address and
occupation.

Remi (01:36:17):
That seems like a way you would pick a partner on a game
show, and not the way you wouldget a jury for a trial.

Ashley (01:36:26):
Additionally, the prosecution wasn't required to
disclose all evidence in advance.

Remi (01:36:33):
So the defense would have no way of preparing ahead of
time.

Ashley (01:36:37):
I think they do disclose most of it, but it's not like a
Brady violation, which is aSupreme Court case in the United
States.
If they don't disclose it Inthe United States, the
prosecution has to disclose allexculpatory evidence to the
defense.
Otherwise it is something thatcan be appealed later on.

Remi (01:36:59):
So there's not like surprise evidence and surprise
testimony, that sort of thingwhich we see in movies.

Ashley (01:37:06):
Yes, but it's not a two-way street.
The defense does not have to dothe same.
In opening statements, theprosecution acknowledged the
lack of motive but presented aprecise timeline.
They allege Lindy killed Azariaduring the 5-10 minutes she was
away from the tent after thefamily returned from hiking.
As I said earlier, they claimshe murdered the baby in the car

(01:37:29):
and put her body in Michael'scamera bag.

Remi (01:37:32):
But even the prosecution is like we have no idea why she
would do this.
They have no motive whatsoever.
They only have their series ofevents.

Ashley (01:37:42):
And even though eyewitness Sally Lowe was
confident she heard Azaria cryin the tent that evening, the
prosecution insisted that wasimpossible because the baby was
already dead.
They further alleged theChamberlains cleaned the car
while the search for her waswell underway.
The prosecution began bycalling several eyewitnesses
from the campsite, includingseveral campers who interacted

(01:38:05):
with the family that day.
While the prosecution attemptedto downplay their testimony,
cross-examination revealed thesewitnesses firmly believed a
dingo had taken Azaria.
They recounted hearing her cry,noticing blood inside the tent
and observing that Lindy waswithin their line of sight the
entire evening, making it highlyunlikely she could have killed

(01:38:29):
her baby or cleaned up the messwithout anyone noticing.
Next came a barrage of expertwitnesses.
The first group examined thetent, bedding and clothing.
They testified that the hairsfound were not from dingoes and
there was insufficient blood onthe materials to support such an
attack.

(01:38:49):
The defense countered byhighlighting their lack of
formal training in hair andblood identification, the
mishandling of crucial evidenceduring transport and overlooked
blood evidence that contradictedtheir conclusions.
The next set of experts focusedon Azaria's clothing.
They argued the damage wasconsistent with cuts rather than

(01:39:12):
dingo teeth, that tufts offiber allegedly from scissor
cuts were found in the camerabag and that blood on the
clothing came from a neck injury.
During cross-examination, thedefense exposed major flaws in
these conclusions.
Some damage was caused by mothsand none of the fibers in the

(01:39:34):
bag had blood on them.
One key witness, dr Cameron,admitted he heavily relied on
the reports of other expertsrather than reviewing the
evidence firsthand.

Remi (01:39:46):
Then you shouldn't be testifying dude.

Ashley (01:39:50):
The defense also noted a prior case in which his
testimony contributed to thewrongful conviction of three
intellectually disabled men whowere later pardoned of murder.

Remi (01:40:02):
Oh, so this guy is just a scumbag.

Ashley (01:40:06):
How it's portrayed in the book is that he just loves
testifying and is verypersonable and is kind of
willing to just side withwhatever side hires him.

Remi (01:40:20):
I said it before and I'll say it again you can find a
quote-unquote expert to testifyabout anything in court.

Ashley (01:40:30):
Finally, the prosecution presented testimony regarding
the supposed blood found in theChamberlain's car.
The defense meticulouslypointed out procedural errors,
including Joy Kuehl's use ofinappropriate testing methods.
The defense began theirarguments on October 13, 1982.

(01:40:50):
Their primary witnessesincluded the Chamberlains
themselves, character witnesses,individuals who experienced
dingo attacks and eightscientific experts who
challenged the prosecution'sconclusions.
These experts argue that theblood testing conducted by the
prosecution was flawed, thesupposed blood on the car could

(01:41:12):
not have come from an infant andthe blood on Azaria's singlet
could have been consistent witha dingo attack.
Despite the clarity of theirtestimony, the sheer volume of
scientific evidence and thetechnicality of it all proved
overwhelming for the jury.
Ultimately, the trial hingedless on the experts and more on

(01:41:33):
perceptions.
The trial hinged less on theexperts and more on perceptions.
The jury had to decide whatthey thought about Lindy and
whether they believed Dingocould have killed a baby.
Deliberations started onOctober 28, 1982.
Instructions from the judge.
So I think this is where it isperceived that the judge was
siding with the defense, becausehis instructions highlighted

(01:41:56):
the divided scientific opinionsand reminded the jurors to
consider the number of dingoattacks in the area, the
Chamberlain's good character andlack of criminal history and
testimony of those present thenight of Azaria's disappearance.

Remi (01:42:11):
So basically reiterating like come on, guys, we know they
didn't do this right.

Ashley (01:42:16):
And they were also asked to think about whether a parent
who killed their child wouldhave kept the camera bag and car
intact, as well as Mrs Lowe'sunwavering claim that she heard
Azaria cry.

Remi (01:42:30):
We were talking about this earlier.
We were talking about thisearlier.
The fact that, if what theprosecution say is correct, that
means that Lindy murdered herdaughter in this car and then
never cleaned it and leftevidence inside of it for over a
year, seems kind ofquestionable.

Ashley (01:42:47):
And maybe even if someone didn't have the money to
get rid of a car and buy a newone, you could keep the camera
bag.

Remi (01:42:54):
Those are cheap rid of a car and buy a new one.
You keep the camera bag.
Those are cheap.
Yeah, nothing about this is thebehavior of someone who just
murdered their child and istrying to cover up their tracks.

Ashley (01:43:04):
Despite these instructions, the guilty verdict
came the next day.
Michael was sentenced to threeyears of probation.
As you pointed out, it wasoriginally 18 months in prison,
but that was changed to threeyears of probation, and Lindy
received a life sentence atBaruma Penitentiary with parole

(01:43:24):
eligibility after 20 years.
In this clip, their attorneysreact to the verdict.

Chamberlain's Lawyer (01:43:31):
Lindy reacted as gasped, as though
she'd been shot.
The judge almost apologeticallysentenced Lindy to life in
prison with hard labour.
The jury was going out and Ilooked at her and called her you
pack of bastards, you pack ofbastards.
It was like a punch in thestomach.

(01:43:51):
I thought it was a great, greatmiscarriage of justice and
would be a blight on Australiain years to come, because it was
just wrong.

We went down with the Chamberlains to
the cells afterwards and theywere, as you would imagine,
really, really upset, Asking ifthey were innocent.
How could this have happened?

Ashley (01:44:21):
I just love that these attorneys like really truly
believed in their client'sinnocence and were just
devastated by the verdict.

Remi (01:44:31):
I could not imagine going through this.
I could not imagine goingthrough this.
This would be insane.
To even try and mentallyprocess the horrific tragedy you
went through and then peoplejust deciding that you had been
the one to perpetrate it.
I am so heartbroken andsympathetic for this family.

(01:44:51):
This is so fucked up for thisfamily.

Ashley (01:44:58):
This is so fucked up.
Lindy gave birth to herdaughter, Kalia, three weeks
later.
She appealed in February 1983and was released on bail while
the court reviewed the case.
She returned to prison afterher conviction was upheld on
April 30th 1983.
So she was released for aperiod of time during this yeah,
for like two months.

(01:45:18):
Despite the unsuccessful appeal, Dr Barry Botcher, the
defense's opposing blood expert,remained convinced of her
innocence.
To investigate Joy Kuehl'smethods, he traveled to Germany
and tested a sample of his ownblood using the same serum she
used to claim fetal blood wasfound in the car.

(01:45:39):
The results were identical,further proving her method
unreliable because Dr Botcherwas clearly not a baby.
Within the year 31, scientistsformally protested her
conclusions.
Although she later acknowledgeddeficits in her testing, she
stuck by her conclusions, yetstill resigned from her position

(01:46:03):
soon after.

Remi (01:46:04):
Not gonna admit I'm wrong, but I'm still gonna resign.

Ashley (01:46:10):
Support for Lindy persisted after she lost her
second appeal on February 22,1984.
Advocacy groups, including theMelbourne Plea for Justice
Committee and National FreedomCouncil, collected hundreds of
thousands of signaturesadvocating for her release,
reinvestigated the scene atAyers Rock and organized rallies

(01:46:33):
featuring key eyewitnesses suchas Judy West, the Lowe's Dr
Botcher dingo expert, les Harris, amateur tracker Maury Habe and
Wally Goodwin, the man whodiscovered Azaria's clothing.
Even Chief Ranger Derek Hoffpublicly emphasized the danger
of dingo attacks in the area.

(01:46:54):
Remarkably, lindy's prisonpsychiatrist wrote a letter
stating she was the only patientin his career he believed was
wrongfully convicted.

Remi (01:47:06):
Wow, just wow.

Ashley (01:47:09):
Further scientific evidence strengthened her case.
Dr Botcher demonstrated thatthe blood found in the car
likely came from an adult.
New hair analyses confirmedthat at least six hairs on the
tent bedding were canine, and aUnited States textile professor
concluded that damage toAzaria's clothing could be

(01:47:29):
consistent with chewing, Perhapsmost striking.
The supposed blood spray in thecar the cornerstone of the
prosecution's theory that Azariawas murdered was revealed to be
overspray from a paint job.

Remi (01:47:44):
This is brought up in the film as well, that they can both
test positive under the sametesting.

Ashley (01:47:52):
Despite these developments, a judicial review
of the case was denied.

Remi (01:47:57):
What why?

Ashley (01:47:58):
It's easier to deny it than to reopen the case.
I don't know.
During her imprisonment, lindyworked in the textile factory
and often made clothing for herthree kids.
Michael, facing a crisis offaith, formally resigned as a
minister In late January 1986,tragedy struck again at Ayers

(01:48:19):
Rock when camper David Brettdisappeared during a night hike.
His body was discovered eightdays later near the exact same
location where Azaria's clothingwas found.
During the recovery,investigators noticed a knot of
fabric sticking out of the dirt.
It ended up being Azaria'smissing matinee jacket.

Remi (01:48:38):
The article of clothing, the prosecution this has got to
be like a one in a billionchance that they happened to
find this.

Ashley (01:48:48):
The discovery prompted Lindy's release and the
initiation of a Royal Commissioninvestigation on February 7,
1986.
In September 1988, the SupremeCourt acquitted the Chamberlains
, citing reasonable doubt abouttheir guilt.
The ruling referenced themisidentified blood in the car,

(01:49:08):
flawed blood testing and thediscovery of the jacket near the
same dingo lair where Azaria'sother clothes were found.
Of the jacket near the samedingo lair where Azaria's other
clothes were found.
The Australian government paidLindy $1.3 million in damages in
1992.
It wasn't enough.
Despite the acquittal, a thirdinquest in 1995 returned an open

(01:49:34):
verdict, which meant the juryacknowledged Azaria's death as
suspicious but didn't attributeit conclusively to dingo or
human action.

Remi (01:49:40):
Are you kidding me?
This family has not beenthrough enough.
They went through this shit athird time.

Ashley (01:49:48):
By then, the Chamberlains had divorced in
1991, but continued to searchfor a resolution to the case
that would finally put to bedany question of their guilt.
This finally came in June 2012,when a fourth inquest finally
ruled that Azaria died from adingo attack.
Her death certificate wasimmediately amended Basically 30

(01:50:29):
years later.
Composer wrote the opera Lindyin 2002.
In 2021, australian drag queenEtc Etc portrayed Lindy on the
Snatch Game episode of the firstseason of RuPaul's Drag Race
Down Under, which was widelycriticized as being in poor
taste, and I have clips fromthat episode.

(01:50:51):
Before we get to that, theSnatch Game for those of you who
have never seen rupaul's dragrace is when each contestant
picks someone to impersonatelindy chamberlain is here
tonight.

Ashey (01:51:03):
Is there a public?
Statement you'd like to makehas anyone seen my baby?

his breath smells like I wrote down
an answer and I stepped away fora second to heat up a can of
baked beans and the dingo got myanswer.
Oh, yes.
Oh my God, so much tragedy inyour life.

I'm battling through the grief to
write an answer and I wrote.

Hang on Ru.
Did you hear something?
No, what Did you?
What is it?

Oh my God, it's the dingo.
Oh my God wow, um, etc.

Remi (01:51:46):
Etc.

Ashley (01:51:47):
You can sashay away I used to watch rupaul religiously
and I love the Snatch Game andthis one was just not funny at
all.

Remi (01:52:00):
It was very, very cringe to watch this.

Ashley (01:52:04):
She also looks a little bit more like a sex worker
versus like a mom of three kids.

Remi (01:52:10):
She does not look like Lindy Chamberlain at all.

Ashley (01:52:28):
She does not look like Lindy Chamberlain at all and,
for those of you listening athome, she brought out a dingo
hand puppet that she pretendedto have attack her, and that's
how her portion ended, and itdidn't look like a dingo hand
puppet either.
So F's all around.
Ingrid Berner in 1994 and had adaughter named Zara in 1996.
He earned a PhD in educationand worked as a high school
teacher until retiring in 2008.
He published three books,including one about the case,
and became his wife's full-timecaretaker after she suffered a

(01:52:52):
stroke in 2011.
After she suffered a stroke in2011.
, he died from leukemia onJanuary 9, 2017.
Lindy Chamberlain married RickCreighton in December 1992.
She is 77 and published threebooks about her experience.
I really wanted to read one ofher books for this podcast, but

(01:53:13):
the shortest one is like 700pages and the other two are 900.
And I just don't have the timeto have read that before we had
to put this forward.
I do fully support andrecommend, if anyone actually
wants to learn more about thecase, to buy her book versus
Evil Angels.

Remi (01:53:34):
I'm sure she had a lot to say about this.

Ashley (01:53:38):
And I think it's fitting that we let her have the final
words.

You never forget.
There are little things that,out of the blue, remind you, and
you can just see a fleetingglimpse in the side of her face,
the movement of an arm thatlinks what the person that you
loved and lost did, and it hitsyou just there what real

(01:54:07):
memories do you have of her?
I've got lots of them, but Ithink that's one thing I'll keep
to me.

Ashley (01:54:17):
And that is the true story of Fred Shapisi's A Cry in
the Dark.

Remi (01:54:21):
I must say, during all the clips that you've shown me
throughout your section here, Idid not see the cold-blooded
killer that the people ofAustralia apparently did, killer
that the people of Australiaapparently did.
She may not have been overlyemotional or anything like that,
but in no way did she comeacross as someone who would have

(01:54:42):
murdered her own child forliterally no reason.

Ashley (01:54:47):
The only thing I can think of is that this was in the
1980s when all of this startedand she wasn't sobbing in front
of the cameras at everyopportunity she spoke to the
media.
Now we've learned a lot moreabout how trauma and grief is
processed not nearly as much aswe should know, but we know more

(01:55:10):
than we did back in the day,and so I just think because she
wasn't crying all the timepublicly that that was taken as
an admission of guilt orsomething that the public viewed
as suspicious.

Remi (01:55:24):
But beyond that, yes, she was not crying and all of that.
But again, I guess this comeswith time.
Everyone grieves in their ownway, but it still seems like a
crazy snap judgment to makeabout a person for a crime so
serious like this, based on suchflimsy evidence and like a gut

(01:55:44):
feeling.

Ashley (01:55:45):
And the fact that blew my mind too is even putting
aside everything that happenedup to her trial, but the fact
that a third inquest happenedand the jury still, after
everything that was publicizedabout it, still said that they
were not going to rule inLindy's favor.

(01:56:06):
Instead, they were just keepingit open as she did it or Dingo
did it that is mind boggling tome.

Remi (01:56:13):
This is one of the few episodes that I was getting like
pissed off the more I learnedabout this.
This is so horrible what thesepeople were put through, that it
was literally making me angryhearing about all of this and
the fact that they had to gothrough a fourth one and they
weren't even cleared ofeverything until 2012?

(01:56:35):
That's mind-bogglingly insane.

Ashley (01:56:38):
And it's just so sad.
Not only did this family lose ababy, not only was this woman
in prison for several years, buttheir marriage ended.
Her husband, who was a devoutpastor, had to quit his job
because he was just so torn uprightfully so about this whole
process and was unable tocontinue preaching in the way

(01:57:02):
that he had been doing andraised to do his entire life.

Remi (01:57:07):
And I don't blame someone for having a crisis of faith
when faced with something likethis.
It's an innocent husband andwife whose life is ruined after
facing one of the most horrifictragedies a family could ever
face.
I understand why he had somesecond thoughts about things

(01:57:28):
after all that transpired.

Ashley (01:57:30):
And then, through it all , despite continued decades of
trying to publicly prove thatthey did not kill their baby,
they have to deal with all ofthese movies, tv shows, game
shows, making fun of them.

Remi (01:57:46):
It was literally everywhere for years and I
thought of it as a joke.
I remember being in schoolsaying the dingo ate my baby,
having absolutely no point ofreference of where it was from,
and it's so heartbreaking tothink that this poor family had
to go through this for theirentire lives, after already

(01:58:07):
going through one of the mosttraumatic, terrible ordeals that
a family could ever go throughand just being reminded of it as
a joke forever.

Ashley (01:58:18):
Can you imagine being the Chamberlains and just
sitting down to watch yourfavorite show, seinfeld, and
that joke coming on?
It would just be so upsetting.

Remi (01:58:28):
Or several years later they could have watched
Supernatural or, years afterthat, rupaul's Drag Race.
It was everywhere.
Like the family could just beminding their own business,
getting about their life, andhave an unnecessary reminder be
made a joke of.

Ashley (01:58:44):
I think this is a good reminder that jokes can be made
in good taste, but they can alsobe made in poor taste and have
long-lasting ramifications.

Remi (01:58:54):
Well, it's clear that we both have a lot of strong
opinions about this case, butlet's see if we have any minor
grievances about changes madebetween the case and the film.
In our objection of the week,your Honor, I object.
And why is that, mr Reed?
Because it's devastating to mycase.
And why is that, mr Reed?

Because it's devastating, to my case,
overruled, good call.

Remi (01:59:17):
I will go first this week, since I'm pretty sure I'm
already going to be losing thistime around, because my
objection is not reallysomething that they changed, but
more of something that theydidn't include, and that was
Wally Goodwin.
I think that there should havebeen a slight emphasis on the

(01:59:40):
fact that this guy found it andturned it over and it was folded
, and I think that detail reallyplayed a huge factor in how the
case went down.
And Wally is never reallyaddressed or seen, and it's not
really necessary that he is, butit is something that I would
have liked to see included andthat's pretty weak.

(02:00:00):
So, whatever yours is, I'm sureit's gonna beat me.

Ashley (02:00:04):
I actually really, really, really like that one.
I think that's a pretty bigomission the movie made Because
it was a huge contention.
It was one of the primaryreasons she was convicted.
The jury and public thought adingo can't fold clothes.
These clothes were folded.
And then there was WallyGoodwin who was the one that
found the clothes, insisted theyweren't folded but didn't have

(02:00:27):
any proof of that.
And then Constable Morris wasadamant that he returned the
clothes exactly as they found.
So people just believed theuniformed officer.
But Wally Goodwin advocated forher innocence throughout this
entire process, even joining thecommittee to publicly speak in
support of her at rallies.

Remi (02:00:45):
Exactly, and in the film it's portrayed as someone who
presumably is Wally, discoveringthe discarded piece of Azaria's
clothing in the ground, andfrom there it just cuts to a
news report saying that it wasdiscovered neatly folded,
despite the shot we just sawclearly not being neatly folded.

(02:01:07):
So there wasn't really anexplanation of what was going on
there.
And if Wally Goodman was acharacter, I think that would
have added more to the story andespecially if it was someone
who was repeatedly trying tospeak up on their behalf, I
think that would have been agood inclusion in the film.

Ashley (02:01:26):
Okay, so it was hinted at, but it wasn't clearly shown
that someone picked up theclothes and put them down.

Remi (02:01:33):
It has shown them picking up the clothes.
It has not shown them puttingthem back down and like having
them neatly folded afterwards.
It shows someone finding it,picking it up and from there it
goes to the news broadcast.
So there's a bit of a gap therewhere I was wondering wait a
minute.
I just saw the clothing and nowthey're saying it was found

(02:01:53):
neatly folded and the inclusionof Wally Goodwin would have
accounted for that.

Ashley (02:01:59):
Mine is that I recall you saying at the very beginning
.
When Lindy hears the baby cry,she walks back to the tent and
can see the dingo has somethingin its mouth and shoos it away.

Remi (02:02:13):
I want to point out that in the film you can see that it
has something in its mouth andshoos it away.
I want to point out that in thefilm you can see that it has
something in its mouth.
It's not clear if Lindy seesthat it has something in its
mouth.
It is just obvious on screen.

Ashley (02:02:26):
Okay, dang it.
Well then I'll take that away.
How about this one?
You had said that the onlyevidence of a dingo being there,
other than what Lindy saw, wasone paw print where there was
clearly a track that at leasttwo people followed.

Remi (02:02:42):
In the film it is a single paw print.
It may be alluded to thatthere's more, but in the film it
seems like they discover just asingle paw print out in the
outback.

Ashley (02:02:54):
Okay, then that will be mine, because there were
actually paw prints found infront of the tent, in the back
of the tent, where actually BabyAzaria's bassinet was laid.
So it was kind of like thedingo sniffed her and you could
see the paw prints travelingfrom the back of the tent, from
the bassinet, to the front ofthe tent, and then you could
actually follow the trail tentfrom the bassinet to the front

(02:03:16):
of the tent and then you couldactually follow the trail.

Remi (02:03:22):
In the film they mention blood being found around the
tent, but not any dingo prints.
So I think you've got that one.
It's a weak one, but yeah,you've got our objection of the
week for this time around.

Ashley (02:03:30):
Well, I think the difficulty we had, even finding
something, will lead nicely intoour verdict factual but
creative liberties were takenfor the sake of entertainment,
the film will be declared amistrial.

(02:03:56):
But if the film ultimatelystrays too far from the truth,
then it will be condemned asguilty and sentenced to a life
behind bars.

Remi (02:04:06):
You can start things off this time around, since I did
our objection of the week first.

Ashley (02:04:12):
I'm going to keep this short and sweet because I would
be flabbergasted if anyone hadany sort of opinion in their
mind.
This film is so clearly notguilty.
I had two objections, one youhad just explained away.
You had one which was anomission kind of, because they
alluded to it.
It just wasn't clear enough,the whole folded versus not

(02:04:35):
folded thing.
If you didn't know anythingabout the case, you'd be a
little lost.
If you read up on this case,you'd know exactly what the
director was insinuating in thatscene.
Other than that, we havenothing.
We have nothing else to faultthis film for.
This film is probably thebiggest not guilty verdict we've
encountered to date.

Remi (02:04:56):
And I gotta disagree 100%, ashley.
This is a hard guilty.
It is clear that this woman didthis crime.
No, are you crazy?
This is clearly a not guilty.
Lindy is an innocent woman whowas put through the most
traumatic event imaginable, aswell as her husband, and I think

(02:05:17):
the film does the best job ofany film we have covered to date
of portraying the eventsexactly as they happened.
There's a lot of stuff in thismovie that would have been
streamlined.
In normal films they leavelocations, they go back to
locations, there's a lot of likegoing in and out and returning

(02:05:37):
to stuff and then coming back toit, and all of that would have
been streamlined in an Americanproduction, and I am very
grateful that they did not dothat.
And I think that this is thetruest version of the story that
we could get, and it isstarring the greatest actress of
our generation and one of themost brilliant actors of our

(02:06:00):
generation as well.
The film was done with respect.
The film was done accuratelyand, like you said, the only
things we have to knock it forare omissions that didn't
necessarily even need to beincluded, because the film is
from the Chamberlain's point ofview.
So, yeah, this is probably thebiggest not guilty I have ever
given to a single film on ourpodcast, so bravo.

(02:06:24):
A Cry in the Dark aka EvilAngels.

Ashley (02:06:28):
Well, now we are closing the book on our first wrongful
conviction, we have anotherfirst coming up on the podcast
next week, don't we remy?

Remi (02:06:37):
yes, next week we will be covering our very first foreign
film, but not just any foreignfilm a foreign film directed by
academy award-winning directorbong joon-ho, who directed
parasite, and this is one of hisearlier films, memories of
Murder, about the most notoriousserial killer in South Korean

(02:07:01):
history.

Ashley (02:07:02):
Very excited to hear about that.
I've been pushing for a foreignfilm since season one.
This is not the foreign film Iwas pushing for.
We're keeping that one on theback burner, but I'm very
excited to hear about this movieand do the research about our
case.
It's also our seasonal serialkiller episode, so we are, no

(02:07:23):
pun intended, killing two birdswith one stone with this one.

Remi (02:07:26):
Yeah, we like to have at least one serial killer per
season, not multiple serialkillers.
That's kind of overkill.
I'm pardon the pun again, but Ilook forward to talking about
this movie.
I don't know much about it, butI've seen all of Bong Joon-ho's
other films.
He is a brilliant director.
I love Parasite.
We just recently saw Mickey 17,which was kind of trashed on

(02:07:50):
but was pretty entertaining inmy opinion.
So I look forward to taking astep back to one of his films
from the early 2000s where hewas just getting started about a
real life event, which issomething I don't think he has
done since this film.

Ashley (02:08:06):
And stay tuned at the end for a clip from the trailer.
But before we play that, wewant to again thank you all for
listening and don't forget totell a friend, rate, review,
subscribe and until then, courtis adjourned.
There's one more woman who'sdead.
It's because the body hasn'tcome out yet.

(02:08:27):
She disappeared on July 18thtwo months ago.

Who am I?
Dokgo Hyun-soon, she doesn'tget along with me.

Ashley (02:08:41):
If Hyun-soon doesn't know me, in this neighborhood,
she's an spy Next to the trainstation in the neighborhood, in
the neighborhood, in theneighborhood, in the
neighborhood, in theneighborhood, in the
neighborhood in the the.

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