American History X

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashley (00:08):
Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, the show where we
take a look at some of yourfavorite movies and the true
crime stories that inspired them.
I'm Ashley.
I'm a clinical psychologist andforensic evaluator in the state
of Oregon.

Remi (00:21):
And I'm Remy.
I spent over a decade workingin the film and television
industry in Los Angeles,California.

Ashley (00:28):
And welcome back everyone.
We hope that you had as arelaxing week as we did.
If you're listening to this now, we are actually on a plane
back from sunny Hawaii.
Remy, how are you doing?

Remi (00:43):
I'm doing a-okay considering.
I want to thank everybody forjoining us this season.
This is, of course, our seasonfinale and we are so grateful
that you guys have been joiningus.
We hope you guys have beenenjoying the program so far and,

(01:05):
if you have, please tell afriend because we will be back
next season with a lot more ofthis.
But before we get intoeverything today, I would just
like to acknowledge that we gota little bit of a shout out from
Mr Daniel Franzese, one of thestars that we discussed two

(01:25):
weeks ago in the Larry Clarkfilm Bully, who is also probably
mainly known for his role inthe film Mean Girls.
But he reposted our podcastmention on his Instagram and
Facebook and it means the worldto us and if you're listening,
daniel, we sincerely appreciateit.

Ashley (01:44):
And since it is our season finale, for anyone who
hasn't listened to one of ourfinale episodes before, we
always do a two-parter twoepisodes, movies, stories that
are related in some way.
This one is a little differentthan ones we've done before Remy
.
What are we talking about today?

Remi (02:04):
to kick things off, Today we will be discussing the
controversial film AmericanHistory X and two weeks from now
we will be covering Malcolm Xin our season finale.
So two very opposing viewpoints, two controversial figures
played by two brilliant actorsin two fantastic films.

(02:26):
Ashley, had you seen the filmwe will be discussing today,
american History X?

Ashley (02:32):
I've seen it once.
It has been quite some time Iwant to say like 15 years or
something so I don't remember alot about it, which is a running
theme for me when we come tothese movies I've seen before,
but I do remember.
I really, really loved themovie.

Remi (02:50):
I have seen this movie several times.
I did not see it in theaters,but me and my friends did watch
it in high school.
I rewatched it later in filmschool and probably a few times
since then.
I think it is a brilliantlymade film with a powerful
message and a career-definingperformance from Edward Norton.

Ashley (03:12):
It is the first movie I remember seeing Edward Norton in
and knowing who he was, or atleast that movie causing me to
know who he was.
I might have even saw thisbefore I saw Fight Club and I
know I saw it before I watchedthe movie we talked about in
season one or two, the People vsLarry Flint, where he played
the lawyer.

Remi (03:33):
I have been following Edward Norton's career ever
since he made his cinematicdebut in Primal Fear, which got
him a Best Supporting Actornomination right out of the gate
, and because of that I alwayslooked out for what films he was
coming out.
With the People vs Larry Flint,he did a musical directed by
Woody Allen at one point, ofcourse, fight Club, and this All

(03:56):
very, very, very differentperformances, and I know that
some of his controllingbehind-the-scenes behavior has
affected some of his ability toget roles nowadays, which we
will, of course, get into Now.
He is playing a skinhead inthis film.
Ashley, do you have anyexperiences with skinheads?

(04:19):
Did you know any?
Were there any in yourneighborhood growing up?

Ashley (04:23):
Thankfully I have zero experience with skinheads and,
to my knowledge, I do not thinkI have met a neo-Nazi.

Remi (04:30):
I knew a few wannabe skinheads in high school.
They were not the brightestbulbs in the box, if I'm going
to be honest, but I only knewlike maybe two or three of those
kids, and they were not thekids that anyone really wanted
to be around, to say the least.

Ashley (04:47):
They actually are probably similar to the type of
kids that Frank Mink who we'llget into later probably
recruited to his skinhead gangwhen he was coming up in
Philadelphia.
But that's enough intro, let'sget into the movie, shall we?
Well, at least thepre-production part.
The White man Marches.

Remi (05:08):
On American History X is a 1998 film written by David
McKenna and directed by TonyKaye.
In his feature film directorialdebut, the film stars Edward
Norton and Edward Furlong, alongwith Feruza Balk, stacey Keech,
elliot Gould, avery Brooks,ethan Suplee and Beverly
D'Angelo.

(05:29):
David McKenna wrote the script,partially based on his own
childhood, growing up in SanDiego around the punk music
scene, where he often witnessedviolent behavior and even
interviewed real skinheads toensure the script's authenticity
.
Mckenna wrote and sold AmericanHistory X by the time he was 26
and went on to write thescreenplays for the 2001 films

(05:53):
Bully and Blow, both of which wehave already covered on our
podcast.

Ashley (05:58):
Wow, he is becoming a franchise client of ours now,
isn't he?

Remi (06:02):
Kathy Shulman and Robert Enfried were originally going to
produce the film at SavoyPictures until the studio went
bankrupt and Michael DeLuca,then production president of New
Line Cinema, swooped in topurchase the script.
Dennis Hopper was initiallyapproached by New Line Cinema to
direct the film, but rejectedthe offer after the studio

(06:24):
refused to pay him his milliondollar directing fee.

Ashley (06:27):
Wait, is that the same Dennis Hopper that was in
Apocalypse Now?

Remi (06:31):
It sure is, and he was also the villain in Speed.
He directed Easy Rider.
That's really the only film ofhis that I know he directed
offhand and there wasn't even ascript for that movie, so he is
an interesting choice to directthis film.
Bully director Larry Clark wasnext offered the opportunity to
direct, but had to pass due toscheduling conflicts.

Ashley (06:54):
And he probably didn't like how there wasn't enough
teenagers in it.

Remi (06:57):
There are a few teenagers in it, but probably not enough
underage sex scenes for histaste.
Eventually, music videodirector Tony Kaye, whose works
include the videos for God'sGonna Cut you Down by Johnny
Cash and Danny California by theRed Hot Chili Peppers, accepted
Michael DeLuca's offer to makehis directorial feature film

(07:18):
debut with American History X.
To ensure the film turned outwell, kay even took his contract
to a synagogue and had itsigned in front of a rabbi.
This will not be the first bitof eccentric behavior from Mr
Kay.
Joaquin Phoenix was firstoffered the role of Derek
Vineyard but declined afterfinding the subject matter to be

(07:40):
too distasteful.
After several more castingcalls, kay was still unable to
find a suitable actor for therole, so casting director
Valerie McAfee suggested anup-and-coming actor named Edward
Norton, who had recently burstonto the scene with two
star-making performances in 1996with Primal Fear and the People
vs Larry Flint.

(08:00):
Though Kay initially objected,feeling that Norton lacked any
weight or presence, heeventually conceded against his
better judgment.

Ashley (08:10):
And good thing he did, because the one thing I remember
about this movie is EdwardNorton's phenomenal performance.

Remi (08:18):
Norton was also initially reluctant about the project
until none other than FrancisFord Coppola convinced him
otherwise.

Edward Norton (08:26):
When I was talking to him about it he was
like, well, what you know, whatare you, what are you working on
, what are you interested in?
And I was telling him about myfriend, david, who had written
this American History X and thatwe were working on.
I was kind of telling him whatwe were trying to do with it and
how we wanted to make it isthis kind of like guerrilla, you
know thing.
And he was like you should dothat, you should do that

(08:48):
immediately.
And I was like, well, I want to.
I was like don't, don't.
I was like don't cancel, don'tdon't.
You know, I still want to dothis with you.
He's like, no, no, I thinknever know what to do with you.

Ashley (09:06):
Wait, what movie was he going to do with Francis Ford
Coppola?

Remi (09:09):
He was actually trying out for Matt Damon's role in the
film the Rainmaker, which he didnot get.
He did not pass on that role,he just didn't get it and Matt
Damon got it.
But according to executiveproducer Steve Titch, norton's
passion for the project wascontagious and Norton even
agreed to a pay cut of more thanhalf a million dollars from his

(09:31):
usual one million dollar fee.
So he made the exception thatDennis Hopper was unwilling to
make.

Ashley (09:39):
That's pretty generous of him, considering how new he
was on the scene.

Remi (09:43):
Ironically, norton turned down the role of Private Ryan in
1998's Saving Private Ryan todo this film, a role that went
to Mr Matt Damon.
Edward Norton and Tom Hankswere each nominated for the
Academy Award for Best Actorthat year for their roles in
American History X and SavingPrivate Ryan.

(10:04):
However, both lost out to acontrastingly quirkier
performance from Roberto Benigniin Life is Beautiful.
To prepare for the role, nortonshaved his head and gained 25
pounds or 11 kilograms of muscleby increasing his calorie
intake and spending hours uponhours in the gym.
Norton later stated that hisphysical transformation, along

(10:28):
with the way Tony Kaye hadfilmed him, gave audiences a
false impression that Norton wasactually much bigger and
tougher than he is in reality.
Valerie McCarthy also castEdward Furlong in the role of
Danny Vineyard, who is primarilyknown for his portrayal of a
young John Connor in JamesCameron's 1991 film Terminator 2

(10:48):
Judgment Day.
Although Furlong plays a whitesupremacist in the film, he is
actually half Mexican, with afather said to be of Russian
Jewish descent.
Similarly, feruza Balk, whoplays Derek's neo-Nazi
girlfriend Stacy in the film, isof Jewish descent in reality.
Ethan Suplee, who was primarilyknown for his comedic roles in

(11:09):
the Kevin Smith films Mallratsand Chasing Amy, leapt at the
opportunity to play a moredramatic character in a film
centered around a social issuewhich he felt was not receiving
enough media attention.
Just wait another 15 years,ethan.
Enough media attention.
Just wait another 15 years,ethan.

(11:29):
Coincidentally, ethan Supleeand William Russ, who plays
Derek's father in AmericanHistory X, have both appeared in
the ABC television show BoyMeets World, with Russ
portraying Corey Matthews'father, alan, in 154 episodes,
while Suplee was a recurringguest star in 19 episodes as
Corey's high school bully,frankie the Enforcer Staccino.

Ashley (11:49):
I totally forgot he was in Boy Meets World and now it is
all coming back to me and Ilove it.

Remi (11:56):
Ethan Suplee popped up in so many random things for years.
He is a wonderful actor.
I always enjoy seeing him inthings and I am super glad that
I still see him in stuff to thisday.
Principal Photography lastedfor several months in Los
Angeles and Venice Beach,california, and was finished in
May of 1997.

(12:17):
On top of his directing duties,tony Kaye also served as both
cinematographer and cameraoperator and would often be seen
silently walking around setscouting for interesting camera
angles or visuals.
Kay would typically arrive towork in a Lincoln Town car
driven by a chauffeur with alicense plate that simply read

(12:38):
Jewish, though he supposedlycarried upwards of four cell
phones and a fax machine.
Kay was able to establish acasual work environment for the
cast and crew, often welcomingvisitors on set, including
Norton's girlfriend at the time,courtney Love, whom he had met
while filming the People vsLarry Flint.

Ashley (12:57):
That is so funny, I had no idea they dated.

Remi (13:00):
I feel like I had heard about it a long time ago, but
yeah, I had completely forgotthat these two were an item for
a period of time.
Kay even had boxes of matzahdelivered to the set during the
Passover holidays, so it seemslike he was able to establish a
good environment for this typeof intense film, and I am very

(13:21):
glad that they got a Jewishdirector to tackle this subject
matter as well.
And finally, many of the actorshad offensive white power
tattoos painted on their armsduring filming, which led to an
awkward situation one night whenactor Ethan Suplee forgot to
remove all of his after filmingone day and was later confronted

(13:42):
by a random gentleman at aconvenience store who took a bit
of offense when he noticed.
And with that shall we get intoTony Kaye's American History X.

Ashley (13:54):
Yes, I am excited.

Remi (14:10):
Our story begins in black and white.
As the opening credits rollover a serene California beach,
with the waves crashing gentlyonto the shore and the sun
slowly setting beyond thehorizon, we then cut to the
suburban home of the Vineyardfamily, where Danny, played by
Edward Furlong, is roused fromhis slumber by the intrusively
loud sounds of his brother,derek, played by Edward Norton,

(14:33):
having animalistic sex with hisgirlfriend, stacy, played by
Feruza Balk.
Derek's appearance is alsoexceptionally striking, to say
the least, with a lean, muscularphysique, shaved head, goatee
and large swastika tattoocovering the left side of his
chest, positioned over his heart.
Outside, a car carrying threearmed black men slowly pulls up

(14:56):
in front of the house.
Two of the men then exit thevehicle, with one keeping watch
while the other smashes out thewindow of Derek's van parked in
the driveway.
Hearing the commotion outside,danny bolts from his bed to
inform his brother Derek thathis van is being stolen.
Without hesitation, derekimmediately leaps into action,

(15:19):
grabbing his gun from thenightstand and throwing on his
black combat boots, beforerushing downstairs wearing
nothing but a pair of whiteboxer shorts.
After checking the peephole,derek bursts out of the front
door, shooting the lookout deadand severely wounding the other
man breaking into his van.
As the getaway driver narrowlyescapes, with Danny looking on
frozen in fear, from the frontporch, derek slowly returns his

(15:40):
attention to the injured manstill bleeding on the sidewalk
and begins steadily closing inon him, before the scene
suddenly cuts to black.

Ashley (15:48):
I have a feeling he was not approaching him to render
first aid.

Remi (15:52):
He certainly was not.
No.
We then jump ahead in time totwo years later, where the film
has now shifted into full colorand Danny is sitting outside the
principal's office at his highschool in Venice Beach.
Inside, the school's principal,dr Sweeney, played by Avery
Brooks, is in the midst ofdiscussing Danny's recent book
report on the Adolf Hitlerautobiography Mein Kampf with

(16:15):
Danny's history teacher, murray,played by Elliot Gould.
Murray, who is Jewish and has ahistory with Danny's mother, is
deeply offended by Danny'sflagrant disrespect.
Though Murray insists thatDanny is a lost cause at this
point, dr Sweeney, who is ablack man, remains hopeful,
believing that Danny still hasthe potential to change with the

(16:35):
proper guidance.
Danny is called in to speakwith Dr Sweeney about the
incident alone shortly after,where we learn that Danny's
brother, derek, was recentlyreleased from prison.
Earlier that very morning aspunishment for Danny's insolence
, danny is informed that he willnow be taking history class
one-on-one every day directlywith Dr Sweeney for a brand new

(16:57):
course Sweeney appropriatelynames American History X.

Ashley (17:01):
That teacher is doing exactly what he should do.
He recognizes that this is atroubled kid and, instead of
casting him off, like theteacher is, he is taking on a
more personalized and uniqueapproach.

Remi (17:16):
I agree.
Everything that Dr Sweeney doesin this film is the right
approach to take.
Danny's first assignment is towrite another paper, due by the
next day, examining the impactof Derek's arrest on Danny and
the rest of their family, withthe caveat of Danny potentially
being expelled if he fails toturn the assignment in on time.

(17:38):
Later that day, in the boys'restroom, danny witnesses a
group of black studentsassaulting and bullying a white
classmate Calmly emerging fromhis stall.
Danny witnesses a group ofblack students assaulting and
bullying a white classmateCalmly emerging from his stall.
Still smoking a cigarette,danny fearlessly blows a thick
cloud of white, smoky airdirectly into the lead bully's
face.
Thankfully, the altercation isdelayed from escalating any

(17:59):
further that day after the classbell rings, causing the bullies
to all disperse without anyincident.
Meanwhile, down at the VeniceBeach Police Station, dr Sweeney
has been brought in to consulton an ongoing investigation into
a growing white supremacistgroup in the area which Derek
had once been a key member of,known as the DOC, led by a man

(18:20):
named Cameron Alexander, playedby Stacey Keech.
The officers play a news clipfor Dr Sweeney from years prior,
featuring a young,shaggy-haired Derek being
interviewed by a local newsstation, moments after learning
of his father's death at thehands of a black man while
working as a firefighterattempting to extinguish a
growing blaze that had startedin a drug den.

(18:42):
Derek tearfully laments the lossof his father, but what begins
as a somber moment quickly turnsinto a hate-filled rant, with
Derek blaming his father'smurder, along with the rest of
America's problems, squarely onany other race that is not
specifically of white Europeanancestry.
The police plan on keeping aclose eye on Derek now that he's

(19:02):
been released from prison, butSweeney warns the officers that
if anything happens to Derek,that there could be hell to pay
from the other skinheads inretaliation.
We then flash back to thecourts of Venice Beach, where a
group of skinheads are in themidst of playing a heated
basketball game against a teamof black players.
As Derek, danny and Cameronwatch intently from the

(19:23):
sidelines, frustrated with histeam's performance, derek subs
in by proudly removing hist-shirt to unveil his
unmistakably offensive swastikatattoo for all to see, then
suggesting that they up thestakes by playing for permanent
race rights over the VeniceBeach basketball courts.

Ashley (19:41):
I'm sure that went over smoothly courts.

Remi (19:47):
I'm sure that went over smoothly.
Well, they do agree to theterms and the two teams engage
in a ferociously intense game ofthree-on-three which nearly
erupts in violence butultimately ends with Derek
scoring the winning point andsecuring victory for the
skinheads.
That day, returning to thepresent, danny arrives back home
and we see that his family nowlives in a much smaller
apartment in a far rougher partof town.
Inside, derek now, with a fullhead of hair, wearing a

(20:10):
long-sleeved white shirt hidinghis tattoos, sits in the living
room catching up with his mother, doris, played by Beverly
D'Angelo, and his sister, davina, played by Jennifer Lean.
For the first time in two years,after forbidding his family to
visit him while he wasincarcerated, I did notice that
all the members of this familyhave D names too, sort of like

(20:30):
your family Ashley, all A names.
Excited for his brother'sreturn, danny eagerly shows
Derek his first Nazi tattoo,freshly inked on Danny's forearm
, and though Derek doesn't saymuch, he is clearly displeased
with his little brother's newbody art.
Soon after, an old skinheadfriend of Derek's named Seth,

(20:51):
played by Ethan Suplee, arrivesto pick up Derek for a party
being hosted by Cameron thatnight in Derek's honor.
While waiting for Derek Sethkills some time by interviewing
Danny on his digital camcorder.

Frank Meeink (21:04):
Who do you hate, Danny?

Danny Vinyard (American Histo (21:06):
I hate anyone that isn't white
Protestant why they're a burdento the advancement of the white
race.
Some of them are alright.
I guess None of them arefucking alright, danny.
Okay, they're all a bunch offucking freeloaders.
Remember what Cam said we don'tknow them, we don't want to
know them.
They're the fucking enemy.
Now what don't know them?
We don't want to know them,they're the fucking enemy.
Now, what don't you like aboutthem?
And say it with some fuckingconviction.

(21:28):
I hate the fact that it's coolto be black these days Good.
I hate this hip-hop fuckinginfluence on white fucking
suburbia Good.
And I hate Tabitha Soren andall her Zionist MTV fucking pigs
telling us we should get along.
Save the rhetorical bullshit,Hillary Rodham Clinton, because
it ain't gonna fucking happen.

Ashley (21:48):
It's so eerie how these sentiments are still being
repeated to this day, evenlouder now than in the past
decade.

Remi (21:58):
We then flash back again in black and white, to a time
shortly after the death of Derekand Danny's father, when Derek
was still deeply entrenched inhis radicalization.
Gathered in the parking lot ofa Mexican grocery store, derek
delivers a rousing speech to aformidably large gang of
captivated skinheads rallyingagainst the recent influx in

(22:19):
local immigrant-owned businesses.

Derek Vinyard (American His (22:22):
All right, listen up.
We need to open our eyes.
There's over 2 million illegalimmigrants bedding down in this
state tonight.
The state spent $3 billion lastyear on services for those
people who had no right to behere in the first place.
$3 billion $400 million just tolock up a bunch of illegal

(22:43):
immigrant criminals who only gotinto this country because the
fucking INS decided it's notworth the effort to screen for
convicted felons.
There's nothing funny going onhere.
This is about your life andmine.
It's about decent, hardworkingAmericans falling through the
cracks and getting the shaftbecause their government cares

(23:03):
more about the constitutionalrights of a bunch of people who
aren't even citizens of thiscountry.

Ashley (23:09):
I just hate how this sounds so similar to things we
have heard time and time againby certain people in political
power in this country.

Remi (23:21):
It is very chilling that this is an issue that we are
still dealing with.
To send a message, the entiregang dons ski masks and proceed
to violently storm the Mexicangrocery store, assaulting any
workers or customers that get intheir path while destroying
everything in sight, thenfleeing as quickly as they came.

(23:42):
The next day, over dinner atthe vineyard home, derek gets
into a heated debate over theRodney King beating with his
mother's new boyfriend, murray,who later becomes Danny's
history teacher.

Ashley (23:53):
That's a weird coincidence.

Remi (23:55):
I know I did always think it was very odd that they had
his history teacher beromantically linked to the mom.
At one point it seemsunnecessary when the
conversation quickly devolvesinto a shouting match, derek's
sister, davina, attempts toleave the situation, only for
Derek to physically prevent herfrom doing so by furiously

(24:17):
shoving her to the floor.
After Davina has left inhysterics, derek unleashes a
barrage of anti-Semitic insultstowards Murray, before
heartlessly ejecting him fromthe house by using his swastika
tattoo as a not-welcome sign.
Afterward, derek's mother,doris, tells Derek that she is
ashamed of the man he has becomeand wants him out of her house

(24:39):
by the following morning.

Ashley (24:41):
I don't know what you would do as a mother if your kid
started to act and believe inthis way.

Remi (24:48):
They're brainwashed.
I will say it flat out it'slike a cult.
There isn't much you can do.
This person has intrusivethoughts that have taken over
their brain and it is very, veryhard to undo this type of
thinking in people, butthankfully it is not impossible,
as we will hear in both of ourstories.
I believe that night we see thefinal moments of the failed van

(25:11):
theft from earlier reach itsharrowing conclusion.
As the wounded thief laysbleeding in the driveway, derek
returns, consumed by rage,forcing the thief at gunpoint to
bite down onto the edge of thesidewalk before killing the
thief instantly with a brutalcurb stomp to the back of his
skull.
The police arrive moments laterand arrest Derek, though it is

(25:32):
painfully clear by hisexpression that he feels
absolutely no remorse for hisactions.

Ashley (25:38):
And he only goes to prison for two years for that.

Remi (25:41):
Well, derek is convicted of voluntary manslaughter due to
Danny testifying on hisbrother's behalf, potentially
saving Derek from a sentence oflife behind bars.
Returning to the present, derekand Seth arrive at the skinhead
party being thrown in Derek'shonor, while Danny stays home to
work on his assignment forAmerican History X.
The racist romp is in fullswing at this point, with Derek

(26:05):
noticing that the group hasgrown exponentially in both size
and intensity during his timeaway.
Side note here the punk bandAntiheroes sued New Line Cinema
over a character in this scenehaving a tattoo which featured
the band's logo.
Since the band understandablydid not want to be associated
with Nazis, even fictional ones,in any way, antiheroes went on

(26:29):
to record a song about thesituation, called NLC, which was
primarily meant to antagonizeNew Line Cinema over the entire
ordeal.

Ashley (26:38):
So did the actor actually have the tattoo and
they just didn't think to coverit up?

Remi (26:42):
Honestly, I think it was an extra.
I think someone literally hadthis tattoo because they were a
fan of the band and they wereplaying a skinhead in the scene.
They were probably not askinhead in real life, but I can
understand why anti-heroeswould get upset by this.

Ashley (26:58):
Well, and the producers probably didn't even notice or
realize that it was a band namedTattoo.
I've never heard of this bandbefore.

Remi (27:06):
Exactly, it's a punk band.
They're not mainstream at all,so it's understandable how
something like this could havebeen overlooked, and it is also
understandable that the band wasupset about it.

Ashley (27:18):
Even though the whole movie is about transformation.
But that's neither here northere, I guess.

Remi (27:24):
Though Derek tries to maintain a low profile amongst
the sea of rowdy skinheads,things go awry when he runs into
his old flame, stacy, andreveals that he no longer
believes in the DOC's rhetoric.
When Stacy becomes defensive,derek quickly realizes that she
may not be trustworthy, sohastily excuses himself in order
to seek out his former mentor,cameron Alexander.

(27:47):
Much to his surprise, derekdiscovers Cameron alone in a
back room speaking with Danny,who had snuck out to attend the
event separately.
After Danny returns to theparty, derek tells Cameron that
he and Danny are done with theDOC and accuses Cameron of
brainwashing teenagers intojoining his organization.

Dr. Sweeney (American Hist (28:07):
done some hard time, don't you?

Derek Vinyard (American (28:08):
fucking talk to me about hard time.
You don't know a thing about it.
Hey, I've done mine.
You didn't do shit.
I found out about your littleprison story.
You did two months and then yourolled over on two kids and let

(28:30):
them go down for you.
So don't feed me your fuckinglies, Cameron All right, this is
stupid, I'm done.

Dr. Sweeney (American Histo (28:39):
You go cool off, get laid, do
something.

Get your head on straight, then
I'll talk to you.
Yeah, but it doesn't evenreally matter if I don't does it
, because you've got the nextcrop all lined up and ready to
go, you fucking chicken hawk.

Remi (28:51):
When Cameron provokes Derek by mentioning his
influence over Danny, dereksnaps and beats Cameron
mercilessly before franticallyfleeing the scene in search of
Danny.
To make their escape Backoutside, derek is publicly
confronted by Stacy, in front ofthe entire party, about his
earlier statements leading toSeth pulling a gun on Derek,
demanding answers.

(29:12):
Luckily, derek manages todisarm Seth, then uses Seth's
gun to hold off the rest of thegroup as Derek runs to safety.
Once the coast is clear, derektosses Seth's gun into a trash
can but is suddenly ambushed outof nowhere by Danny, in a state
of outrage and confusion due toDerek's actions.
After Danny has calmed down abit, the two brothers walk down

(29:35):
to the Venice Beach basketballcourts and take a seat on the
bleachers, where Derek finallyreveals the true story behind
his change of heart.
We flash back again in blackand white to Derek's early days
at Chino Prison, where Derekfinds himself overwhelmingly
surrounded by other races.
To maintain his safety whileincarcerated, derek aligns

(29:56):
himself with a group oflike-minded, racially obtuse
individuals, more commonly knownas the Aryan Brotherhood.
During the days, Derek isassigned to work in the laundry
room with a black inmate namedLamont, played by Guy Torrey,
who remains persistentlytalkative despite Derek's
steadfast refusal to speak withhim.

(30:17):
This routine continues for anentire year until one day when
Derek catches a member of hisAryan Brotherhood selling drugs
for the Mexicans out in theprison yard.
When Derek voices hisdisapproval, the other Aryans
seem unconcerned and evenannoyed by Derek's dutiful
insistence on strict racialsegregation, regardless of the

(30:39):
circumstances.
Displeased with the otherAryan's lack of commitment,
derek distances himself from therest of the group and even sits
alone during mealtimes as astubborn form of protest.
An unintentional result of thisis that Derek steadily begins
forming a close bond with hisworkmate Lamont over the

(31:00):
countless hours spent working inthe laundry room together.
In time, the two even beginhaving full-blown conversations
with each other, leading toDerek eventually learning the
reason behind Lamont's six-yearsentence.

Derek Vinyard (American Hi (31:16):
What the fuck landed you in here?
You didn't kill anybody.
You're too skinny for agangbanger.

Lamont (American History - X (31:19):
Oh , ain't that a bitch?
All right, Don't judge a bookby its cover.
Man, I can throw these things,all right you know what I'm
saying?

Yeah , whatever, all right, come on.
Come on, what'd you do?

Lamont (American History - (31:27):
Come on, man, it's none of your
business.
All right, it's embarrassing,all right.
It's none of your goddamnbusiness.

What Embarrassed.
Everybody in here's embarrassed.
You think nobody in here gotaway with anything.
What'd you do?
Man, I stole the TV, all right.
So you stole the TV.
What's embarrassing about that?

Lamont (American History - X) (31:48):
I stole a TV from a store that
was right next door to a donutshop.
All right, I run out.
The store owner's runningbehind me yelling bam.
I run into three cops, allright, oh see, see, I told you
it was embarrassing.
You laughed, wait a sec, wait asec.

That doesn't make sense.
Nah, you didn't get six yearsfor stealing a TV man, Come on.

Lamont (American History - X) (32:09):
I go in the store.
I come out, the police officergrabs my arm, the TV, falls on
his foot and breaks it.
They said I threw the TV at theofficer.

Derek Vinyard (American (32:17):
Assault Six years.
Come on, tell the truth.
You chucked it at him, orsomething.

Lamont (American History - (32:23):
Like I said, I came out of the store
, grabbed my arm and fell on hisfoot.

Ashley (32:34):
This really highlights the racial disparities in
sentencing in this country.
Derek gets two to three yearsfor killing someone and Lamont
gets six for stealing anddropping a TV.

Remi (32:48):
Derek killed two people, not just one, so he was
sentenced to three years withparole eligibility in two years,
and Lamont, who didn't killanyone, got six years Later.
That week, derek is cornered inthe men's showers and viciously
raped and beaten unconscious bythe other Aryans as a form of

(33:09):
punishment for Derek's publicdisplays of disrespect.
While recovering in theinfirmary, derek is paid a
surprise visit by his formerteacher, dr Sweeney, who has
come to speak with Derek abouthis growing concerns over Danny
emulating Derek's behavior.

I don't know.
I don't know what I feel, I'mall.

Derek Vinyard (American Histo (33:32):
I feel a little inside out.
I'm, you know, I don't know.
There's some things that thatdon't fit.
Well, that happens.

Dr. Sweeney (American Hist (33:43):
Look , Derek, you are too damn smart
to be floating around herepretending you don't see all the
holes in this bullshit.

Hey , listen, you know what I said.
I was confused.
I didn't say I didn't believein it.

Dr. Sweeney (American Histo (33:52):
All right.
That's why you have to stayopen Right now.
Your anger is consuming you.
Your anger is shutting down thebrain God gave you.
God, you know man.

You've been talking about what's going on in
me since I was in high school.
How the fuck do you know somuch about what's going on
inside me?

Dr. Sweeney (American Histor (34:07):
No , I know about me, I know about
this place, I know about theplace you are in.
What do?
You know about the place I'm in.
There was a moment when I usedto blame everything and everyone
for all the pain and sufferingand vile things that happened to
me, that I saw happen to mypeople.

(34:28):
I used to blame everybody,blame white people, blame
society, blame God.
I didn't get no answers becauseI was asking the wrong
questions.
You have to ask the rightquestion, like what has anything
you've done made your lifebetter?

Ashley (34:48):
Ah, so Dr Sweeney had connections to Derek, which is
why he's taking an interest inDanny.

Remi (34:55):
Dr Sweeney had actually been one of Derek's favorite
teachers in school, which I willgo into a little bit later, but
very great words of wisdomcoming from Avery Brooks's
character, dr Sweeney, in thisscene.
After carefully pondering DrSweeney's question, derek breaks
down and tearfully acknowledgesthat his hate-fueled actions

(35:16):
have been destroying his familyfor several years now.
From that point forward, derekisolates himself, spending the
majority of his time readingbooks sent to him by Dr Sweeney.
Throughout the rest of hissentence, derek fully expects to
be attacked by one of the otherraces, without protection from
the Aryans.
But to Derek's astonishment,that fateful day never came and

(35:40):
by Derek's release date, theonly race that had ever harmed
him ended up being his own.
Just before exiting the prisongates, derek bids his only
friend, lamont, a fond farewell,aware that it was likely his
influence that had kept Dereksafe from the other races during
the remainder of his sentence.
Finally, returning to thepresent, derek confesses his

(36:05):
remorse for the lives he tookand the pain that he's caused
Danny and their family.
As Danny hangs on Derek's everyword, feeling closer to his
brother than ever before, derekand Danny embrace in a heartfelt
moment before returning home totear down the various neo-Nazi
propaganda which had previouslydecorated the walls of Danny's
bedroom.
That night, danny also finisheshis assignment for Dr Sweeney's

(36:26):
American History X class.
We then get one final flashbackin black and white of a Vineyard
family dinner before thefamily's patriarch, dennis
Vineyard, played by William Russ, had passed on.
Though the scene is brief, itdoes reveal that much of Derek
and Danny's neo-Nazi fanaticismhad originally stemmed from

(36:46):
their own father's casual racismspoken around the house
throughout the boy's childhood.
Side note here according toactor William Russ, who plays
Derek and Danny's father in thisscene, his character was
originally written as more of anArchie Bunker, eric Cartman
type, with heavy dialoguecontaining numerous racist
expletives.

(37:06):
However, russ told thefilmmakers that his character
really only needed to say theN-word once for audiences to
fully understand exactly whatkind of a man Dennis Vineyard
truly was.
To fully understand exactlywhat kind of a man Dennis
Vineyard truly was.
Back in the present, a new daydawns on a fresh chapter in
Derek and Danny's lives as thebrothers say their goodbyes to
the rest of the family beforeDerek walks Danny to school on

(37:29):
his way to a meeting with hisparole officer, just before
class, danny stops off in theboys' restroom to relieve
himself before class.
Danny stops off in the boys'restroom to relieve himself,
only to be unexpectedly shot andkilled by the same black
student he had disrespected theprevious day.
Derek returns after the policeand ambulances have already
arrived, sending Derek into apanic as he comes, pushing his

(37:50):
way through the policebarricades and into the boys'
restroom, only to beoverwhelmingly devastated by the
sight of Danny's lifeless bodylaying splattered in blood on
the cold tile floor.

Ashley (38:02):
Oh my god, I did not remember that Danny dies in this
.

Remi (38:06):
The film ends with a voiceover from Danny reading his
completed paper, ending with aquote from Abraham Lincoln's
1861 first inaugural address.
As the words play over, shotsof the same beach we had seen in
the beginning now shown inbeautifully vibrant full color.

Danny Vinyard (American H (38:24):
Derek says it's always good to end a
paper with a quote.
He says someone else hasalready said it best.
So if you can't top it, stealfrom them and go out strong.
So I picked a guy I thoughtyou'd like.
We are not enemies, but friends.
We must not be enemies.
Though passion may have strain,it must not break our bonds of

(38:49):
affection.
The mystic chords of memorywill swell when again touched,
as surely they will be by thebetter angels of our nature.

Remi (39:02):
And that was Tony Kaye's American History X.
Do you have any initialthoughts, Ashley?

Ashley (39:10):
It's such a sad ending.
I kind of wish it would haveended on a more hopeful note
have ended on a more hopefulnote In the film.

Remi (39:21):
I didn't mention this in my summary, but the black
student is shown in thebackground during a few other
scenes and he is shown with hisolder brother, who appears to be
more of a gangbanger type, andthe impression I get is that
it's a similar situation whereit is a younger brother being
heavily influenced by theirolder brother.

Ashley (39:42):
It's a full circle moment.
They're both young kids whohate each other and are being
influenced by their oldersiblings and society to hate and
then carry out these harmfulacts based on their rage.

Remi (39:58):
It truly truly is a tragic story and not one that is
completely fiction.

Ashley (40:05):
What did you think about the director's decision to have
all the past scenes filmed inblack and white and the future
in color?
I imagine that made it easierto follow when you're jumping
back in time.
But even with this you wouldhave been able to tell just even
based on Edward Norton's hair.
But did you think that was anice stylistic decision?

Remi (40:26):
Well, the reason for that decision is they wanted to show
that any scene portrayed inblack and white is when the
character of Derek is beinginfluenced by racism, where he
is seeing things in black andwhite.
If the scene is in color, thatmeans he is seeing the world for
as it truly is.
And there is one exception tothis.

(40:48):
It's almost always flashbacksin the film, but there is a very
brief scene of Danny and Derekas little children that is also
in color and that is done onpurpose because it is before
they had any of these influenceson them.
So I think it is a brilliantstylistic choice.

Ashley (41:06):
I do really like that.
It's a big overarching metaphorthat is really describing the
film as a whole.

Remi (41:13):
Well, let's get into the release and post-production of
this film, because it's prettywild.
Tony Kaye's original cut of thefilm had a runtime of a tight
95 minutes and was delivered ontime within budget.

Ashley (41:31):
That is a rarity.

Remi (41:32):
I know right.
Especially these days, Everymovie seems like it's three and
a half hours.

Ashley (41:37):
And way over budget.

Remi (41:40):
Although Kay's version generated a positive response
from test audiences, new LineCinema still insisted on further
edits, much to Kay's chagrin,who stated I'm fully aware that
I'm a first-time director, but Ineed the same autonomy and
respect that Stanley Kubrickgets.

Ashley (41:58):
They wanted further edits after 95 minutes.

Remi (42:02):
Yes, I don't know what they were looking for from these
additional edits, but Nortonadded stuff to the film, which
is, again, a rarity, especiallyfor an actor to do something
like that.
But there was time added tothis film instead of taken off
in these later edits.
Soon afterwards, edward Nortonbecame involved in the editing

(42:24):
process alongside Kay, quicklyleading to a combative
relationship between the twoover the film's final cut.
At one point, kay was soangered by Norton's edits that
he even punched a wall,resulting in Kay needing several
stitches for his injured hand.

Ashley (42:41):
What does this movie end up being runtime-wise?

Remi (42:45):
They add an additional 18 minutes of footage to the
finished version of the film.

Ashley (42:50):
Okay, so it sounds like maybe New Line Cinema wanted the
movie to be longer than TonyKaye's cut.

Remi (42:56):
I honestly don't know what New Line Cinema was looking for
with a new cut of this film.
If it was delivered on timewithin budget 95 minutes, hey
man, that's ready to go.
But clearly the film was notcapturing something or
portraying something that theyfelt that it should in some way.
I'm not sure, really.
I've never seen the originalTony K version, so I don't have

(43:20):
anything to compare it to.
In June of 1998, new LineCinema test-screened a second
cut of the film, which faredslightly better than the
original and included thechanges made by Norton.
Although the exact differencesbetween the two versions have
been disputed over the years,what is known is that Norton and

(43:40):
Kay fiercely disagreed on thelength of certain scenes,
including a family argument, ananti-immigration speech and a
flashback scene with Derek'sfather.
Kay would later describeNorton's version of the film as
a total abuse of creativity andcrammed with shots of everyone
crying in each other's arms.

Ashley (44:01):
I have seen a video a while back of this director
talking about the movie and heis so upset with what gets put
out.

Remi (44:11):
Oh, we'll get to that video in just a moment.
In the end, an additional 18minutes of footage was added to
the film by Norton personally,and it has also been alleged
that Kay's original ending ofDerek shaving his head again
after Danny's murder wasspecifically changed due to
Norton's objections.

Ashley (44:30):
Oof.
I will say I'm glad they didnot end it on that 100% agree.

Remi (44:35):
That has the person unlearn the message in the end
and I fiercely disapprove ofthat happening in films, except
in the Charlize Theron movieYoung Adult.
That's the one exception,because Norton's cut received a
slightly more positive receptionduring test screenings.
New Line Cinema attempted topersuade Kay to release Norton's

(44:56):
version of the film, but Kayobjected.
As a compromise, the studiogave Kay an additional eight
weeks to re-edit his version ofthe film and submit a new cut.
However, during this period,kay instead chose to publicly
condemn the behavior of bothNorton and New Line Cinema.

Tony Kaye (45:16):
The film is good.
It begins to probe and explore.
Had I been permitted tocomplete my work, the film would
have been great.
My vision of the film nevermade it to the screen because
Edward Norton, the actor, waspermitted by the producers to

(45:37):
edit and alter the film.

Ashley (45:41):
This is a really tough situation.
I understand why this directoris pissed.
I don't think the studio shouldhave given Edward Norton the
power to basically have morecontrol over the final cut than
the director did, but the waythe director is going about
expressing his dissatisfactionwith this is going to do nothing
other than get him completelyblacklisted from future

(46:04):
potential projects.

Remi (46:06):
Agreed.
There is a unspoken rule inHollywood that you never really
talk shit.
You have to kind of take it onthe chin.
Even when you make a movie thatthe studio has re-edited and
changed to an unrecognizablepoint, you are still supposed to
just take it in stride andcarry on, but Tony Kaye was

(46:29):
clearly not willing to do that.
Additionally, kaye reportedlyspent over $100,000 on bizarrely
cryptic advertisements in theHollywood press, quoting John
Lennon and Abraham Lincoln, as aform of protest against the
studio's mandates.
In an effort to reach some sortof compromise, a meeting was

(46:51):
eventually called between thefilm's producers and Tony Kay,
though Kay insisted onvideotaping the entire encounter
and was accompanied by a priest, a rabbi and a Buddhist monk.
Kaye claimed to have a radicalnew vision in mind for the film,
but was uncertain of how longit would actually take to

(47:11):
complete, so the studio offeredKaye an additional eight weeks
to recut his version of the filmagain.

Ashley (47:20):
I am shocked they're even entertaining this at this
point.

Remi (47:24):
Me too.
In all honesty, I figured thestudio would have just removed
him at this point and stoppedspeaking with him.
But this delay also meant thatAmerican History X had to be
pushed from its intendedpremiere at the 1998 Toronto
International Film Festival toallow Kay more time to work on
the project, despitecollaborating with Nobel Prize

(47:48):
winning poet Derek Wilcott onnew narration for the film.
The eight-week deadline cameand went without Kay ever
submitting another version.
Line came and went without Kayever submitting another version.
So on July 28, 1998, new LineCinema officially announced that
Norton's cut of AmericanHistory X would be receiving a
theatrical release in lieu ofKay's cut.

(48:09):
As a result, kay disowned thefilm and even attempted to have
his name removed from theproject entirely and instead be
credited under the pseudonymHumpty Dumpty, but his request
was denied by the DirectorsGuild of America.
Kay went on to file a $200million lawsuit against the DGA

(48:30):
and New Line Cinema, but thecase was dismissed in early 2000
.

Ashley (48:35):
He should have just done what the writer for Bully did
and just have a pseudonym be anactual human name, not the name
of a cracked egg.

Remi (48:45):
Yeah, I think it was the Humpty Dumpty thing that the
Directors Guild was not coolwith.
They probably would haveaccepted a John Smith or a Mike
Jones or something like that.
American History X finallypremiered in New York City and
Los Angeles on October 28, 1998,and went on to gross over $6.7

(49:05):
million in the US fora worldwidetotal of over $23.8 million
against a production budget of$20 million, so not a huge hit.
American History X has an 84%approval rating on Rotten
Tomatoes, with a criticalconsensus that reads American
History X doesn't contend withits subject matter as fully as

(49:28):
it could, but Edward Norton'sperformance gives this
hard-hitting drama crucialweight.
And I do feel that EdwardNorton's performance is
magnificent in the film.
But I think that's not givingenough credit to the film itself
.
I think the film is very, very,very well done well to the
critics point.

Ashley (49:47):
There were two areas I wrote down, which I'm sure we'll
talk about more towards the end, that I wish the movie would
have expanded on, and it wouldhave been about Norton's
transition into having theseneo-nazi beliefs and the
experiences he had with hisfellow crew members.
And also I think there couldhave been a lot more about his

(50:10):
time in prison and having it bea more slow, gradual transition
rather than just kind of like hegets assaulted by the Aryan
nation.
Dr Sweeney comes in and all ofa sudden he's like I'm wrong.

Remi (50:24):
That thought did cross my mind when I was watching the
film.
It did seem prettyinstantaneous.
Admittedly, it was an extremelytraumatic event that happened
to him, but it did seem prettysudden.
So I think adding more time tothis movie was beneficial, and
possibly adding a little bitmore could have even been more
beneficial.

(50:44):
Edward Norton was nominated inthe Best Actor category at the
71st Academy Awards for hisperformance as Derek Vineyard,
with Norton's loss to RobertoBenigni later being included in
Empire Magazine's list of 22Incredibly Shocking Oscar
Injustices.

Ashley (51:03):
I haven't seen that movie that won, but Norton's
performance is better.

Remi (51:08):
I can confidently say that , while Norton's talent and
intelligence has continued to bewidely respected over the years
, he has also gained along-standing reputation around
Hollywood for being difficult towork with, especially when it
comes to creative control.
Several high-profile projectshave been marked by tension or

(51:29):
conflict due to his insistenceon being deeply involved in the
creative process, beyond thescope of his acting duties.

Ashley (51:37):
Do you know what some of those movies are?

Remi (51:39):
Well, Norton had originally been tapped to play
Bruce Banner, aka the Hulk, inDisney's Marvel films after his
debut in 2008's the IncredibleHulk, but Norton clashed with
Marvel over the final edit, withNorton wanting a darker, more
character-driven film and Marvelpushing for a far more

(52:01):
action-oriented tone overall andI agree with Marvel on this one
.
We had already had Ang Lee'sHulk before this, so I think
more of a action-oriented Hulkmovie was what the people needed
at this point.
Against the studio's wishes,Norton rewrote large portions of
the script uncredited, withMarvel, largely ignoring

(52:23):
Norton's input duringpost-production.
When the time came for Nortonto reprise his role as Bruce
Banner and the Hulk in 2012'sthe Avengers, Marvel instead
chose to replace Norton withMark Ruffalo, citing the need
for an actor who embodies thecreativity and collaborative
spirit of our other talentedcast members.

Ashley (52:46):
Yeah, with an ensemble movie like the Avengers, you do
need someone that is okay withsharing the spotlight with a ton
of other people.

Remi (52:57):
And I had also read.
He reportedly clashed withBrett Ratner while filming the
movie Red Dragon as well.
Director Tony Kaye's behaviorduring the post-production of
American History X causedHollywood to label him as
unemployable, and he did notdirect another film until the
2006 documentary Lake of Fire.

(53:18):
Kay finally watched the film inJune of 2007 and acknowledged
that it had become quite alittle classic in its own
befuddled way by 2012,.
Kay admitted that he was veryproud of what they had all
achieved and even apologized forhis past behavior, stating my
ego got in the way, that wasentirely my fault.

(53:40):
Whenever I can, I take theopportunity to apologize, and
that was Tony Kaye's AmericanHistory X, a brilliant movie
made by two brilliant men whoshould have never worked
together, in my opinion, butwere able to create something
magnificent in this film, in myopinion, but were able to create
something magnificent in thisfilm, in my opinion.

Ashley (54:01):
Good for the director for coming around and having the
humility to admit that perhapshe took things a little bit too
far.

Remi (54:09):
The older I get, the more I understand when people look
back with a little bit more ofembarrassment.
So good on you, tony K, foradmitting that you could have
handled things differently.
But this is just part of thestory, and I do need to mention,
before we jump into Ashley'sportion, that the film is not

(54:30):
directly based on the storyAshley is about to tell, but it
was greatly influenced by thestory she is about to tell.
So, ashley, take it away.

Ashley (54:48):
Frank Mink was born in Philadelphia on May 7th 1975.
His father, frank Sr, was achess champion, star basketball
player and promising boxer untilhe saw his younger brother get
electrocuted on train tracks andsubsequently die from his
injuries.
He blamed himself for theaccident, turned to drugs and

(55:09):
alcohol and joined a gang.
When he was 14 or 15 years old,his loving Italian parents
tried to get him back on theright track but ended up kicking
him out when he was 16.
While on leave from the Navywhen he was 18, he met
16-year-old Margaret.
They discovered she waspregnant and married soon after.
Frank's parents were known fortheir wild parties even after he

(55:32):
was born, but Margaret cleanedup her act when he was two.
She left Frank Sr, moved inwith her parents and got an
entry-level job at a stockbrokerage firm.
Once she saved up enough money,she moved into a house with her
best friend who also had ayoung son.
After realizing how much Frankmissed his dad, she sent him to

(55:53):
his paternal grandparents onweekends, since Frank wasn't
allowed to go to his dad's housebecause he used drugs and lived
with a fellow gang member.
Although Frank did see his dada bit more, their interactions
didn't really qualify as qualitytime.
He typically showed up fordinner, but left early to go to
the bar or hang out with hiscrew.
When he did take Frank out ofhis parents' home, they

(56:15):
typically went to his favoritebar on Saturday afternoons.
Once Frank got a little bitolder, his dad taught his son
how to fight while slowlyintroducing weapons like bottles
, pool cues, lead pipes and evenguns and knives.

Remi (56:31):
He was teaching his son how to fight with guns and
knives.

Ashley (56:34):
Yeah, when he was like six, seven, eight years old and
knives yeah, when he was likesix, seven, eight years old.

Remi (56:38):
That is intense, to say the least.

Ashley (56:46):
When Frank was eight, his 15-year-old cousin, nick,
started living with him becausehe didn't want to move with his
family to their newly purchasedfarm in Lancaster.
Since Frank Sr started shavingeven more hours off their
visitation time, frank beganspending most of his free time
with Nick and accompanied him toweekend visits at his aunt and
uncle's farm.
Two years later, margaretstarted dating a man named John

(57:06):
and introduced him to Frank theday he moved in.
Frank was optimistic about hisnew father figure at first
because of their shared love ofsports.
But it wasn't long before Johnshowed his true colors.
Because of their shared love ofsports.
But it wasn't long before Johnshowed his true colors.
He rarely worked, spent hisdays posted up in front of the
TV drinking beer and verballyabused Frank and his mom.

(57:30):
He took on the disciplinarianrole in the home and punished
Frank for every minortransgression.
If he got an answer wrong onhis homework, john ripped it up
and told him how stupid he was.
His other favorite forms ofpunishment included forcing
Frank to copy words from thedictionary, grounding him for
weeks on end and not allowinghim to eat dinner with the rest
of the family.

Remi (57:49):
Copying words from the dictionary, just like fill out
pages 88 through 102?
.

Ashley (57:59):
Yeah, kind of like copy words from a chalkboard or write
a sentence on a chalkboard overand over and over and over
again.

Remi (58:02):
That sounds terrible.

Ashley (58:04):
Well, and then the physical abuse started.
John typically hit Frank whenMargaret was out of the house
and told her the bumps andbruises were hockey injuries.
When she finally did find outwhat was going on, she blamed
Frank for upsetting John.
After a particularly violentaltercation when Frank was 13 or
14, John kicked him out of thehouse, all while his mom watched

(58:26):
and made no attempt tointervene, with nowhere else to
go.
Frank moved in with his dad, whowas now a full-blown cocaine
and opiate addict.
He enrolled in a new school butdropped out after.
He became the target of a gangcalled the Junior Black Mafia
and he actually witnessed thisgang beat up another white kid
at the school who he had startedto form a friendship with.

(58:48):
After living with his dad for afew weeks, frank called his
aunt and uncle to see if hecould spend the summer with them
at the farm.
He was most excited to see hiscousin, sean, since they were
the same age and spent a lot oftime together when they were
younger.
But he hardly recognized hiscousin.
The second he walked in thedoor, his head was shaved and he
only wore combat boots, asimilar style sported by Sean's

(59:11):
friends who Frank met later thatnight.
But it was the bedroom thatunderwent the most drastic
transformation.
The curtains were replaced withconfeder, confederate and
swastika flags and there werenewspaper articles about
neo-Nazis all over the walls.
Nonetheless, he accepted hiscousin and had fun going to
parties and drinking with hisfriends until the wee hours of

(59:33):
the morning.
Two guys that particularlycaught Frank's eye were Bob
Reynolds and Tim Kleinschmidt,and I'll take this opportunity
to note that most of thisinformation that I'm getting
about Frank came from hisautobiography called the
Autobiography of a RecoveringSkinhead, and it does note that

(59:55):
a lot of the names have beenchanged.
Bob and Tim were in their lateteens and obsessed with white
supremacy.
They introduced Frank toidentity theology, a racist and
anti-Semitic doctrine whosefollowers believe white people
are God's chosen ones.
During their late nightdrinking sessions, they pointed

(01:00:15):
out Bible verses they claimedproved their viewpoints and
frequently brought up how Frankwas targeted by a black gang at
his prior school.
To piggyback off Frank'sexperiences with the gang, they
stressed that those youth wereviolent for one reason and one
reason only because they wereblack and violence was in their
DNA.
Although Frank questioned Boband Tim's teachings, they seemed

(01:00:39):
to have an answer to everythinghe asked.
They also appeared to reallycare about him and were
interested in what he had to say.

Frank Meeink (01:00:49):
And I loved it.
I loved it.
I became the little guy thathung around with the crazy
stories, and these guys wouldalways talk to me.
Man, I just thoroughly enjoyedbeing around them.

Remi (01:01:00):
They made a loner kid feel accepted from the sounds of it,
which is a similar tactic a lotof cults use as well.

Ashley (01:01:09):
Frank made his full transition after a punk rock
concert that culminated in himkicking a skater kid in the face
at Bob's urging.
A few days later, he shaved hishead and was gifted his first
pair of combat boots.
For the first time in his life,he felt like he mattered.

Remi (01:01:26):
I want to chime in here really quick.
When I was a teenager I went toa lot of punk shows and things
like that and there was alwaysmore of a level of safety and
respect, like if you were in thepit or anything like that
people would pick you up andthere really wasn't this
violence in the air.
But it sounds like these Nazigatherings.

(01:01:48):
There was always some sort ofair of violence and I also have
to say Nazi punk music isfucking terrible.

Ashley (01:01:57):
Well, I think now might be a good time for a super quick
history lesson.
The term skinhead came intocommon use in Britain in the
late 1960s.
At the time it referred toyoung men who shaved their heads
in protest of consumerism andopen drug use.
Although skinheads werenotoriously violent, they

(01:02:17):
weren't yet defined by racism.
In the late 1970s, ian Stewart,the lead singer of a hard mod
band named Screwdriver that waspopular with Britain's skinheads
, published that he wasaffiliated with a neo-Nazi
organization called NationalFront.
This split Britain's skinheadculture into two groups

(01:02:39):
neo-Nazis and Sharps, whichstands for skinheads against
racial prejudice and are oftencompared to Antifa.
Today, skinhead culture crossedthe Atlantic Ocean in the late
1980s and rapidly grew withsupport from white supremacists.
Romantic Violence.
The first American neo-Nazigroup formed in Chicago in 1984.

(01:03:02):
By the mid-90s these groupsessentially acted as gangs,
since they built alliances andset claims to different areas of
major cities.
Frank moved back in with his dadafter spending a month or two
in Lancaster.
Frank Sr didn't acknowledge hisson's new appearance, but an
uncle was quick to tell him thathis friends and beliefs were

(01:03:23):
full of shit.
After Frank greeted him with aSig Heil and Nazi salute A few
days after coming home, he metand became fast friends with
another skinhead kid named LouisLicinzi.
A few days later, theyintroduced themselves to a dozen
20-somethings with shaved headsthat they stumbled across in
the parking lot of a potato chipfactory.

(01:03:45):
Four of the men were members ofUprise, a violent neo-Nazi
group from Philly.
By the end of the summer, frankand Louis decided to form their
own neo-Nazi crew, which theylater named Strike Force.
Frank recruited members to hisand other subsequent crews for
the next several years.
He did this by targeting highschool kids who were fed up with

(01:04:09):
being bullied by skaters,sharps or ethnic gang members.
This was a successful tactic,as these kids were, like he once
was, outcasts with anger issueswho were tired of being
mistreated.
Strike force provided them withwhat they came to view as an
appropriate outlet for theirrage.
At the start of the 1989 schoolyear, frank moved back in with

(01:04:31):
his mom, who was now two monthspregnant, with her and John's
second daughter.
But the reunion was far from ahappy one.
Although John didn't seeminterested in beating him
anymore, both adults wereconstantly strung out on opiates
.
A few months later, frankrecruited his cousin Jimmy into
his crew.
By this time word aboutStrikeforce had spread,

(01:04:53):
resulting in up to 20 neo-Naziyouth visiting the city nearly
every weekend.
By happenstance, the teens metJohn Cook, one of the most
legendary skinheads on the EastCoast at the time.
One weekend he invited Frankand Louie to his old farmhouse
outside of Reading.
This compound was known as theInvisible Empire of the Ku Klux

(01:05:15):
Klan.
An elderly leader told the boysthat they could join if they
had their parents signpermission slips, since they
were minors and apparently theKKK cares about consent.

Remi (01:05:25):
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
They have permission slips thatthey were giving out to
children to have their parentssign.

Ashley (01:05:33):
Yes, per Frank.

Remi (01:05:35):
I'm sorry, but you are the worst parent if you signed any
of those permission slips.

Ashley (01:05:41):
Well, Frank and Louie actually forged these signatures
and ended up taking their clanvows the next week.

Remi (01:05:49):
Not surprising that the KKK wasn't following up on these
permission slips.

Ashley (01:05:55):
The boys went to the farm at least once every few
months for the next two years.
While there, they went throughNazi seminary classes and
learned how to usesemi-automatic weapons.
Before the end of the schoolyear, frank was expelled for
beating up a black kid andkicked out of his mom's house
yet again.
For the next two years hepartied most nights, bounced

(01:06:17):
around from house to house andgot expelled from two or three
more schools.
One night, while hitchhiking towho knows where, he was picked
up by a middle-aged man whoforced him to give him a blowjob
at gunpoint After being dumpedon the side of the road.
When it was over, he went tohis dad's bar, told him what
happened and got the fatherlyadvice of his dad's bar.

(01:06:38):
Told him what happened and gotthe fatherly advice of bad shit
happens.
As Frank spent more and moretime away from school, he threw
himself into strike force.
The ragtag bunch spray-paintedswastikas on buildings, yelled
SIG HAL to announce theirpresence and prowled the streets
for people to assault.
After being homeless for abouta year, he met Scott Winham, a

(01:06:59):
co-founder of the neo-Nazi groupUprise.
After Scott was released fromRikers, frank joined Winham and
several other adult Nazis asthey assaulted multiple gay and
black men.
That night Everyone wasarrested after a particularly
brutal attack of a homeless man.
Frank's mom could have signedhim out of juvie the next
morning, but he didn't hear aword from her for two months.

(01:07:22):
His lawyer managed to get theassault charges dropped, but he
still had to live with his momwhile on probation.
Since he was convicted ofunderage drinking and a few
other minor charges, he violatedprobation and left his mom's
house after about a week.
Frank and Louis were kicked outof the KKK in the summer of
1991, seemingly because theirreckless behavior was giving the

(01:07:44):
more organized group a bad rapor unwanted attention.

Remi (01:07:49):
Okay, the second part I buy.

Ashley (01:07:51):
In an attempt to legitimize Strikeforce, Frank
struck a deal with the EasternNazi Alliance, which gave his
group more recognition in Philly.
With Louis' help, Strikeforcerapidly grew to 40 members.
In addition to drinking like afish and patrolling the streets
for people to brutalize, Frankdiscovered another interest

(01:08:12):
tattoos.
Over the next few years heinked, Made in Philly, across
the front of his head, aswastika on the front of his
head, a swastika on the side ofhis neck, skinhead, across his
knuckles, sharp killer insidehis bottom lip, a South African
swastika on his forearm and SigHeil on the back of his head.

Remi (01:08:31):
I would bet that these types of tattoos are probably
amongst the most common to beremoved later in life.

Ashley (01:08:40):
Frank decided it was time to get out of Philly as
soon as he turned 17,.
Since he was wanted for hisever-increasing probation
violations, he contacted anadult neo-Nazi he knew, who
arranged for him to stay withfive members in Indianapolis.
He spent the next four monthsin a boarded-up safe house with
these men as they made plans torob banks to fund a race war in

(01:09:04):
Yugoslavia.
Although his housemates rarelyleft their hideout unless it was
to commit racially motivatedcrimes, Frank started spending
weekends in Springfield with afew skinheads he befriended.
After meeting a girl namedJessica in October, he decided
to move there and beganorganizing a skinhead crew,
again primarily targeting kidswho were fed up with being

(01:09:26):
bullied.
The press took notice afterabout a dozen suburban kids
shaved their heads.
A local newspaper ran a storyabout the Nazi threat, which
included an interview with Frankin which he gave his real name.
Aryan nationalist groupsstarted contacting him soon
after to encourage him tocontinue his work and give him

(01:09:47):
advice on how to attract moremedia attention.
The primary way he did this wasby filling out an application
to get airtime on a localnetwork run by the Sangamon
State UniversityTelecommunications Department.
To the program director'shorror, Frank called his show
the Reich and featured SNL-styleopening monologues, white power

(01:10:11):
songs and racist spoofs.
Springfield residents floodedthe department with demands the
show be banned, but there wasnothing that could be done since
it technically met all thestudio's loosey-goosey
guidelines.

Remi (01:10:25):
That is insane studio's loosey-goosey guidelines.

Ashley (01:10:32):
That is insane, I imagine.
After this the departmentredefined and rewrote their
policies.
Frank's home was raided inmid-December 1992.
After the police got word, hepaid for a shipment of illegally
imported guns.
It doesn't sound like theyfound much of anything since he
was released from custody.
Soon after.
The following week, frank andtwo of his friends went to the
home of the sharp Frank Thottratat him out.

(01:10:54):
They brutally assaulted him forthe next several hours and
filmed the entire ordeal.
He was arrested at theuniversity's recording studio
and charged with kidnapping andassault with a deadly weapon.
A week later, this time, frankwas charged as an adult since he
used a weapon in commission ofa violent felony Because he was

(01:11:16):
only 17,.
He was held in segregation forthe first month.
Shortly after being moved togeneral population, he started
reading the Bible out of boredomand learned his girlfriend
Jessica was pregnant.
Although the other inmatesavoided him at first, several
Black and Latino prisoners sooninvited him to play spades and
told him everything he needed toknow about the Illinois prison

(01:11:39):
system.
He found another unsuspectedally in a Black inmate named
Abel, a reformed drug kingpinturned born-again Christian.
Abel invited Frank to hisnightly Bible study and although
he was reluctant to crossracial lines yet again, he
accepted and went almost everynight.
Frank spoke to his mom for thefirst time since he left Philly

(01:12:01):
after he rejected a plea offerof 15 years in prison.
Against his lawyer's advice, heremained optimistic about his
case and opted for a jury trial,and there was a lot of evidence
against this guy.
Not only was the victim goingto testify, but Frank's two
friends were going to testifyagainst him and they recorded

(01:12:21):
the whole thing.

Remi (01:12:23):
Yeah, they are about as guilty as it gets.

Ashley (01:12:27):
Well, right before the trial was scheduled to start,
frank was given a much moreattractive offer three to five
years.
He was moved to the GrahamCorrectional Institution a week
after accepting the deal,complete with toiletries, candy
bars and two small joints froman inmate named Scooter, who his

(01:12:54):
cellmate told him was in chargeof the bikers at the facility
and a spokesperson for the AryanBrotherhood.
Frank met Scooter on the yard acouple days later.
The Aryan Brotherhood wasn'tgoing to let Frank join the gang
, but they did promise to keepan eye out for him for the
duration of his sentence.
Frank was transferred to a fewother prisons throughout his

(01:13:16):
incarceration.
Although leaders of the whitesupremacist groups told him that
he could go to them if heneeded anything, his real
confidants were inmatesaffiliated with a few Black and
Latino gangs.
In addition to regular spadesgames, he joined a Black
football team and orchestrated akitchen food running scheme
with a Black inmate that wouldcome to be his closest prison

(01:13:39):
friend.
These were the people whocongratulated him after he
learned.
His daughter, riley, was bornin November 1993.
Not a single person from theAryan Brotherhood or another
hate group.
Frank secured an early prisonrelease due to overcrowding on
March 6, 1994.
So he spent about 18 months oraround there in prison.

(01:14:00):
A little longer than that,closer to two years, if you
count the time he was in jail.
He assumed he would resumecontrol of the Springfield
skinhead crew, but quickly gaveup hope of that, since everyone
disbanded while he was away,without a group or purpose, he
smoked weed and drank everynight.
He tried to reconcile withJessica, but his jealousy,

(01:14:22):
infidelity accusations and angerissues resulted in her wanting
little to do with him.
She did let him meet Riley andhe visited her almost every day.
As his drinking and verbalaggression towards Jessica
increased, she startedrestricting his visits with
Riley, which in turn worsenedhis depression.
He decided to leave Springfieldafter Jessica reneged on her

(01:14:45):
promise to let him see Riley forEaster, although it meant he
would be in clear violation ofhis parole.
There was nothing left for himin Springfield, so he went home
for the first time in threeyears.
To his surprise, his mom warmlygreeted him at the train
station.
19-year-old Frank planned todive right back into the Nazi

(01:15:06):
scene.
The second he returned toPhilly.
His cousin Jimmy, who ranStrikeforce while he was away,
hosted a welcome home party thenext night.
But many of his former friends,including Louis who he formed
Strikeforce with, had since leftthe scene.
With the realization that hiscrew was no longer something he
recognized, he distanced himselfand spent most of his nights

(01:15:27):
with the second and Porter boysthe gang his since-deceased
cousin Nick associated with.
After being back in Philly fora few months, jimmy summoned
Frank to a meeting with a groupof skinheads from New York who
wanted to form an alliance withStrikeforce.
The meeting turned violentafter one of the visitors
insulted Frank's daughter'sheritage, causing him to walk

(01:15:50):
out on the meeting completely.
After that, most of Strikeforcesteered clear of him, with
fewer connections to the whitesupremacist movement than ever
before.
He began to reflect on his timein prison and he realized that
all the good memories he hadweren't with white inmates at
all.

So when I got out and I started to hang back
around with some of the neo-Nazigroups again and I would hear
just people go, you know, allblack people are this way.
And I was like man, like Ireally shared some intimate
things with some of them dudesin there, just life stuff and
they weren't all that way right.
So I was like, okay, to staypart of this neo-Nazi group, I'm
not going to preach about blackpeople anymore or Latino people

(01:16:32):
, because I became friends witha bunch of Latino guys in prison
too.
I was just like I'm just notgoing to preach on that stuff
because I just don't believe it.

Ashley (01:16:39):
As soon as Frank started to question the racist ideals
behind white supremacy, he tooknotice of other irrefutable
evidence that confirmed he wason the right track.
For example, he began learningabout DNA and how only a few
links in the chain contributedto ethnic differences.
He also read a news story abouta white man who was only alive

(01:16:59):
because a black man donated anorgan to this complete stranger.

Human nature and science consistently kept
proving me wrong at the timeswhen I was questioning things.
You know, when I was gettingout of the movement.
It was the same time as the OJSimpson trial, so I was reading
about this DNA thing because Ireally never knew much about it
which started to go rightagainst everything.
I just learned thatscientifically, we're all
different and that God made usall different.

Remi (01:17:25):
I believe Frank has just discovered science-based
evidence and facts.

Ashley (01:17:31):
Yeah, more people need to start relying on
science-based evidence and factswhen they are coming to their
own conclusions.

Remi (01:17:39):
Yeah, I'm a big proponent of both of those.

Ashley (01:17:42):
Although Frank no longer viewed himself as racist, there
was one group he still viewedas inferior Jewish people.
As fate would have it, thisreligious bias was also soon
tested.
Unsurprisingly, frank's tattoosimpacted his employment
prospects, but he secured atime-limited job moving
furniture for an antiques dealerwho told him about Keith

(01:18:05):
Goldstein, a Jewish man whoowned a furniture store and
needed help moving a bunch ofinventory for an antiques dealer
who told him about KeithGoldstein, a Jewish man who
owned a furniture store andneeded help moving a bunch of
inventory for an upcoming sale.

Well, yeah, I had a swastika tattooed on the side
of my neck, so definitely notgood people skills right there.
And a friend of mine got me ajob doing antique furniture in
Philadelphia and the guy thatowned the company happened to be
a Jewish guy.
He wasn't a yarmulke Jewish, hewas religiously Jewish.
He was just the kind of the ughleavey type of guy.

(01:18:34):
He's just super funny and hehired me on and he was just one
of the guys in my life that justbecame a mentor.

Ashley (01:18:41):
Both men told this third party that the arrangement
could work as long as theydidn't have to talk to the other
one.
Little did Frank know thiswould be the final person to
show him everything he oncebelieved in was wrong.

Always said good things about me, even when I was
down on myself, and I justremember I always kind of looked
up to him, even after workingat the company.
For a while, after working atthe company, I really started to
look up to him and found outhow he started the business.
And here he's telling me that Iremind him of him and that how
street smart I am and how I have, you know, great head on my
shoulders and I just remember,you know, not wanting him to be

(01:19:17):
my dad, but I was just gratefulto have this other human being
in my life.

Remi (01:19:20):
It is truly amazing what a bit of kindness and
encouragement can do to a personkindness and encouragement can
do to a person.

Ashley (01:19:31):
Frank officially resigned from Strikeforce after
he was jumped by a group ofNazis.
A few months later, Althoughhis life seemed to be going in
the right direction, hecontinued to struggle with
depression and became dependenton substances to the point where
he was using alcohol, cocaineand acid almost every night.
Was using alcohol, cocaine andacid almost every night.
To pay for his growing habit,he began selling small amounts
of the drugs, in addition toXanax and Percocet, from his mom

(01:19:54):
.
Frank's life drasticallychanged following the Oklahoma
City bombing on April 19, 1995.
Feeling compelled to share whathe knew about the National
Alliance's potential involvement, he found himself in an FBI
office and told an agenteverything he had been through,
while emphasizing that herefused to provide the agent

(01:20:17):
with specific names.

Right after that all happened, right after I
changed, probably six monthslater, the Oklahoma City bombing
happened and you know, forpeople that don't know, that is
tied back to the movement.
It is tied back to the samepeople that I used to run with
and I didn't know TimothyMcVeigh, but there was this
picture of this dead little girlin this fireman's arms when
he's running down the streetwith her Just kept killing me,

(01:20:43):
like that picture just keptkilling me and killing me.
So I went to the FBI.
Like that picture just keptkilling me and killing me.

Ashley (01:20:47):
So I went to the FBI.
Frank was called back to FBIheadquarters a week later and
asked if he was willing to speakwith the Anti-Defamation League
, which I'm going to refer to asADL throughout the rest of this
podcast.
The ADL is a non-governmentalorganization founded to combat

(01:21:07):
anti-Semitism, bigotry anddiscrimination.
It was considered the primaryenemy of the white supremacy
movement For decades.
They tracked the Nazi party'severy move, monitored every
publication, documented everycrime and profiled well-known
members.
Since Frank viewed the ADL sounfavorably for the last five
years, it took him a few days tocome around to the idea.

(01:21:29):
When he did, he met BarryMorrison in a hotel lobby.
Barry was actually well awareof Frank, since he profiled him
a few years ago.
He quizzed Frank on aspects ofhis life and when he was
satisfied that Frank was who heclaimed to be, the question
shifted to those about why heleft the Nazi party.
He was called into a meetingwith ADL staff.

(01:21:51):
Less than a week later, frankreiterated everything.
He told the FBI and Barry,again stressing that he wasn't
interested in being a rat.
But that's not what the ADL wasinterested in.
They wanted to know the rootcause of his hate.
Why was he so violent?
Why were certain victimstargeted?
Why did he leave the movementwhen he did?
What caused him to change?

Remi (01:22:13):
They were trying to understand the hate and find out
where it had come from and findout how it can go away too.

Ashley (01:22:22):
Because having that knowledge is more useful in
prevention.
Having that knowledge is moreuseful in prevention.
Frank returned to life as usualafter his meeting with the ADL.
With his employer, Keith'sguidance, he opened a small
booth at a consignment mallwhich he named Riley's Antiques
after his daughter, and he soldsmall antique doll chairs to
tourists.

Remi (01:22:42):
That's a very niche market .

Ashley (01:22:44):
Although his goal was to send the profits to Riley, he
spent most of it on drugs.
He also got a new job at a usedfurniture dealership closer to
home.
Kyle Hirsch, the owner of thestore, also ran a halfway house
for recovering addicts andrecognized Frank's condition.
Because Frank was ambivalentabout changing, kyle didn't talk

(01:23:07):
to him directly about treatmentuntil it started to impact his
work Around.
This time Frank met andpromptly moved in with Maria
Salareno.
He was contemplating how to endtheir whirlwind romance when
she told him she was pregnant.
A month or so later, barryMorrison called with Frank's
first speaking engagement, hisdaughter's seventh grade class.

(01:23:30):
The talk did not go as Frankhoped.
He broke down in sobs a fewminutes in and was convinced
that he scarred the kids forlife.
But Barry called him into hisoffice a week later and gave him
a stack of letters written bythe class.
This was the first time hebelieved he might actually have
a story worth telling.

(01:23:50):
Within a few months, barry andother members of the ADL were
driving him to speakingengagements all around Philly.
Maria was still in her firsttrimester of pregnancy when
Frank's roommate skipped townwith his half of the rent.
The young couple livedseparately but rarely saw or
spoke to each other.
A few weeks after their lastphone call, frank met

(01:24:12):
16-year-old Nina, and it wasn'tlong before she too was pregnant
.

Remi (01:24:17):
Come on man.

Ashley (01:24:19):
By the time his third child was born in 1997,
21-year-old Frank was speakingon behalf of the ADL at least
once a week.
The more speeches he gave, themore he realized playing on the
interracial football league inprison played a major role in
his ideological transformation.
To recreate this in hiscommunity, he wanted to bring

(01:24:41):
black and white kids fromdifferent parts of Philly
together by putting them in anenvironment where they were
forced to work together thehockey rink.
He picked hockey not onlybecause it was a sport near and
dear to his heart, but hebelieved it was important for
the kids to not have certainathletic advantages when they
signed up.
Barry Morrison loved the idea,and so did the Philadelphia

(01:25:05):
Flyers.
The local hockey team Harmonythrough hockey was officially
greenlit.
The ADL agreed to provideeducational materials and
volunteers.
The Flyers supplied theequipment and helped with
publicity, and the PhillyDepartment of Recreation let the
organization use an ice rinkfree of charge, with more to

(01:25:26):
follow if the idea took off.
To Frank's surprise, he wasnominated as head coach.
There was just one problem howcould he stand in front of kids
telling them not to hate eachother, when there were reminders
of his prior views tattooed allover his body.
After a few days, barry found adoctor who lost family in the

(01:25:46):
Holocaust and agreed to removeall of his tattoos free of
charge.
The first season of HarmonyThrough Hockey consisted of 20
kids, 10 black and 10 white.
Every afternoon, frank coachedthem and talked to them about
their life experiences.
On some days, the Flyers senttheir trainers and gave the kids

(01:26:07):
free hockey tickets.
Before the season ended, alocal TV show called Philly
After Midnight asked Frank totalk about Harmony Through
Hockey on air.
Right before it started helearned he wasn't the only guest
that night.
Instead, he would share thestage with the black professor
from a local university.
Instead, he would share thestage with the black professor
from a local university.

(01:26:28):
It was immediately clear thatthe interviewer had no intention
of talking about the hockeyleague.
It was an ambush, but Frankkept his composure throughout
the ADL hoped to spread the wordabout Harmony through hockey
and began booking Frank forspeaking engagements across the
country.
One of these included a weektrip to California.

(01:26:48):
Frank spent the week meetingwith various groups and
officials and gave lectures atuniversities, a conference and a
fundraiser.
The trip went well until thelast night when he raided the
minibar and hit the town insearch of a party.
Barry called Frank into hisoffice to address the $500
liquor bill as soon as he gotback.

(01:27:08):
This was the first time Franktold anyone that he might have a
problem, but he wasn't yetready to admit it to himself.
After this meeting he wentstraight to his mom's house in
search of opiates, since she wasout of Percocet.
She introduced him to somethinga little bit stronger Oxycontin
.
He ignored his employer'ssuggestion about looking into AA

(01:27:33):
or NA meetings until Nia lefthim and refused to let him see
their one-year-old son.
Frank then moved into a halfwayhouse after he completed a
30-day residential treatmentprogram.
While there he received aninterview request from hard copy
, since a new movie was comingout that sounded a lot like his

(01:27:54):
life.
Frank had done an informationalinterview with a movie producer
about a year earlier, butnothing came of it, since the
producer isn't listed in thecredits for American History X.
Since the producer isn't listedin the credits for American
History X, he doesn't thinkanyone stole his life story.
Rather, american History X isthe story of every skinhead to

(01:28:14):
some extent.
The hard copy interview airedthe same day the film debuted.
Overnight the ADL's phone wasringing off the hook with
speaking requests.
Frank got an agent and wasspeaking all over the country
three to four times a month.
His only rule was that thebookings couldn't interfere with

(01:28:34):
Harmony through hockey, whichhad now grown to 80 kids and
multiple teams at severaldifferent rinks.
He was also heavily sought outfor media appearances.
He participated in a VH1documentary about kids and hate
groups, mtv's Stop the Violencecampaign and a taping of the
Today Show with Katie Couric.

(01:28:55):
Despite his growing success, hecontinued to struggle with
addiction and stopped going toAANA meetings.
He typically got clean for afew weeks, relapsed and sobered
up just in time for publicappearances.
This is a trend that continuedfor years.
In 1999 or 2000, frank traveledto New York to speak at a

(01:29:17):
juvenile detention center.
While there, a friendintroduced him to Valerie Doyle,
a systems analyst for a bigcompany in Washington DC.
A systems analysis for a bigcompany in Washington DC.
Although they came from totallydifferent walks of life, they
immediately hit it off, talkedon the phone every day and spent
weekends together.
She moved to Philly about sixmonths after they started dating

(01:29:39):
.
For the first time in years,his life was heading in the
direction he wanted it to go.
He avoided drugs and alcohol,had a job he loved and was
rebuilding the relationshipswith the mother of his three
kids, all who got along greatwith his new girlfriend.
Things were going really welluntil he wanted to go out with

(01:29:59):
Valerie and her friends onenight.
But he needed something to takethe edge off.
Since he knew he couldn't drink, he stopped by his mom's house
for a painkiller or two.
He checked into a second rehabfacility after Valerie began
noticing the daily deductionsfrom their shared bank account.
He relapsed less than 12 hoursafter he was discharged.
Before long he swappedOxyContin for heroin and checked

(01:30:24):
into his third rehab facility amonth before he married Valerie
on September 15, 2001.
He relapsed a week after theirwedding was kicked out of the
house and started crashing at acrack house.
One day Valerie tracked himdown and told him she was moving
to Iowa to be closer to herparents, since there was no

(01:30:44):
reason for her to stay in Phillyanymore.
She gave him half of theirshared finances and cash which
he spent on drugs.
Within the month he checkedinto rehab again and agreed to
move to Iowa with Valerie.
In a last-ditch effort to savetheir marriage In Iowa, frank
got a job at a moving company.
In between public speakingappearances, he started mixing

(01:31:06):
downers with meth after hisco-workers introduced him to the
concoction.

Remi (01:31:12):
One day, on his lunch break, he was arrested under
suspicion of driving under theinfluence.

Ashley (01:31:30):
He was transported to a hospital shortly after booking
for treatment of a suspectedoverdose.
He woke up in the ICU threedays later.
Frank moved in with his AAsponsor after he was released
from the hospital after about aweek, with Bob's help, he began
to impose structure on his lifeby focusing on little decisions

(01:31:51):
like making your bed and eatinghealthy and just really taking
sobriety one day at a time.
Thinking he was cured, he movedback in with Valerie against
Bob's advice and relapsed twoweeks later.
She probably would have lefthim for good this time if she
wasn't pregnant.
He relapsed again a month aftertheir son, nick, was born in

(01:32:16):
December 2003.
Frank continued on like thisuntil September 2005, when he
checked into his last rehabfacility after an aborted
suicide attempt and startedwriting his memoir.
A month later attempt andstarted writing his memoir a
month later, frank's mom soughttherapy for opiate addiction,
divorced John in 2007, andapologized to Frank for not
doing so sooner.
John went missing right beforethe divorce was finalized and

(01:32:39):
was found in a morgue a fewweeks later.
The cause of death appeared tobe a heart attack.
Frank accepted a position asmarketing coordinator for the
American Hockey League teamcalled the Iowa Stars in 2007.
He was promoted to director offan development a year later.
He and Valerie had a baby girlin 2009, at which time he

(01:33:01):
resigned from his job to focuson raising his children and
coaching Iowa's Harmony throughHockey League.
He spent time with all of hisother children during their
summer vacations.
As of the publishing of hismemoir in 2010, he continued to
do national speaking tours andmaintain sobriety.
By happenstance, he ran intothe young man he assaulted back

(01:33:24):
in 1992 and formally apologized.
Ran into the young man heassaulted back in 1992 and
formally apologized.
I found a few articles aboutwhat Frank has been up to in the
last few years.
Unfortunately, he relapsedaround 2019 after the breakdown
of his marriage and death of hisson, matt.
His mother also died from afentanyl overdose around this
time.
While in recovery, he met aJewish rabbi, asked him to be a

(01:33:47):
sponsor and still calls himevery morning.
After completing rehab, he movedto Long Beach and started
working as a mental healthpromoter for SHARE, a charity
funded by the Los Angeles CountyDepartment of Mental Health.
In 2020, he testified beforeCongress about neo-Nazi efforts
to infiltrate police departments.

(01:34:08):
In March 2024, an at-home DNAtest revealed he had Jewish
ancestors, a heritage he fullyembraced.
He studies the Torah threetimes a week, goes to synagogue
twice a week, prays three timesa day and keeps kosher.
Frank volunteered his timeafter the LA wildfires by

(01:34:29):
helping displaced addicts.
His organization helped peopleaccess food, clothing,
medications and transportation.
He also helped people searchand find foster homes for
missing pets.
He turned 50 this year and thatis the true story of Tony
Kaye's American History X.
What'd you think, remy?

Remi (01:34:50):
Well, I think it is obvious that this is a
completely different story thanthe one from American History X,
but it also has a lot ofsimilarities.
I think the story of a skinheadbeing indoctrinated is a pretty
familiar tale and I noticed alot of consistencies in both

(01:35:11):
stories.
I can see how the inspirationwould have been taken from it
and I can see how this story isalmost a universal story.

Ashley (01:35:21):
And Frank would have been working with the ADL for
many years by the time thismovie came out, and speaking
about his prior association andhis transformation in prison.
There's no way that doesn'tcome from this guy's story.
There's just no way.

Remi (01:35:38):
And I must say I prefer the real life story's more
gradual, naturalistic approachto how this person undid his
thinking.
It took many, many years.
It wasn't one specific event,it was many events accumulating
over a lifetime, and I thinkthat is a far more realistic and

(01:35:59):
interesting approach than themovie's more instantaneous flip
that happened instantaneous flipthat happened.

Ashley (01:36:10):
I do also wish they would have included more about
Edward Norton's time in prisonin this.
From what you described fromthe movie, yes, he made friends
with a black inmate, but itsounded to me like what really
caused him to change wasn't thefriendship he formed the one
friendship he formed but reallyit was the betrayal he felt
about being raped.
So I think that that's kind ofa disservice that they portrayed

(01:36:34):
it that way instead of it being.
He changed his views because hewas getting to know people
different than him that he usedto hate, rather than him being
betrayed by the people he viewedas allies.

Remi (01:36:45):
I agree it kind of simplifies things when in
reality I think the story youjust told is much more relatable
to a lot of people.
So I will knock the movie forthat and honestly I would have
preferred a longer cut.
I think we could have addedmore to American History X with
a lot of things that you hadmentioned.

(01:37:06):
It would have been interestingto see Derek going from this
shaggy haired high school kidinto someone, shaving their head
and getting a massive swastikatattoo on their chest.
Like there is a pretty big leapthere from the Edward Norton we
see on the news talking abouthis dead father to the one

(01:37:26):
talking to the skinheads in theparking lot of a Mexican grocery
store, which is apparentlysupposed to be like one year
later or maybe even less thanthat.
So I think fleshing that outwould have been pretty
interesting.
And same thing goes for histime in prison.
I think a more gradual approachto him unlearning these things

(01:37:47):
is more realistic and moreinteresting than going for a
shock value approach to it.
And we were also talking aboutthe ending with Danny being shot
and the original ending whereDerek goes to the bathroom and
shaves his head again, basicallyreturning to his skinhead ways
and both of us agree that thatwould have been the complete

(01:38:09):
wrong decision in this film.
And the more we've discussed it, I almost think that Danny
dying was the wrong decision inthis film.
I think we needed to show theirredemption.
I wanted to see these men growas people and struggle and
overcome that and I think thatwould have been more interesting
than going for Danny dying inalmost an ironic way with the

(01:38:33):
student from the day earlier.
So I would prefer a real takeon this.
But I still love AmericanHistory X and I think it is a
powerful, brilliant film butcould have been longer and a bit
more fleshed out brilliant filmbut could have been longer and
a bit more fleshed out.

Ashley (01:38:53):
I know this is like probably the only time we'll
ever say we wish a movie waslonger, because movies are just
so long nowadays, but I cannotimagine what the 95 minute cut
was like.
That just does not seem enoughtime to tackle these issues.
Well, with that, let's get intoour final segment of the show.
We're going to forego ourobjection of the week, since
this is very different from anyepisode we've done.

(01:39:16):
It's not a carbon copy, ortrying to be a carbon copy, of
Frank Mink's life.
We're foregoing our objection,but we are still going to do our
verdict.

Narrator (01:39:27):
At the conclusion of each episode, our hosts will
deliver a verdict based on thefilm's accuracy.
If the film is an honestportrayal of the events, then it
will earn a not guilty verdict.
If the adaptation is mostlyfactual but creative liberties
were taken for the sake ofentertainment, the film will be
declared a mistrial.
But if the film ultimatelystrays too far from the truth,

(01:39:50):
then it will be condemned asguilty and sentenced to a life
behind bars.

Ashley (01:39:55):
Remy, why don't you kick us off with the verdict?
What do you give AmericanHistory X and Y?

Remi (01:40:01):
I think we are both going to be in agreement on this one.
I can't give it a guiltyverdict.
I can't give it a guiltyverdict.
I can't give it a not guiltyverdict.
So this is landing squarely inthe mistrial category in my eyes
.
Like you said earlier, thisstory is not directly taken from
the account we just heard, butthe story of a skinhead is a

(01:40:24):
tale as old as time.
Young teens are indoctrinated,feeling like outcasts, seeking
out acceptance and camaraderieand finding it in a certain type
of group.

Ashley (01:40:36):
And with that being said , we're not saying that there
aren't people out there that arepart of these groups, that are
racist and have been racist fora long time.
What we're saying is there isalso a selection of individuals
who are impressed upon byoutside influences at a young
age that have a harder timeresisting.

Remi (01:40:56):
I think that's true for hate in general.
I don't think hate is somethingthat naturally occurs in people
.
I think that it is somethingthat is learned, whether or not
it's from a young age or in yourteen years.
It is something that you learn.
It's not something that you'reborn with, in my opinion, and I
am firmly under the belief thatit's something you can unlearn

(01:41:18):
as well.
So this story is a powerful one.
I feel like the true story isprobably far more relatable to
people out there who havestruggled with addiction or
conflicting emotions aboutbeliefs.
So this is clearly a story nottaken directly from Frank Mink,
but I can definitely see theinfluence on American History X.

(01:41:41):
What about you, ashley?

Ashley (01:41:44):
I agree.
I think it would be easy tojust say guilty and move on, but
I'm also going to give it amistrial, just based on clear
influence from Frank Ming'sstory and the overarching
reasons why these people grew tohate others.
Yes, some of them had somenegative experience with

(01:42:06):
bullying others yes, some ofthem had some negative
experience with bullying, butreally the main reason was
because they were kids that werein pain and needed an outlet to
direct their rage.
And there are some other littlesimilarities that I saw, but
there's no way that influencesfrom Frank Mink's story weren't
taken.

Remi (01:42:24):
Well, there you have it, everybody Two mistrial votes, a
rarity for this season of ourpodcast.
Now, what do we have coming upnext?
Ashley, I know that there's acertain letter of the alphabet
that these two films have incommon, but beyond that, they
are vastly, vastly different.

Ashley (01:42:44):
As we mentioned at the start of this episode, we are
closing out this season withSpike Lee's film Malcolm X
starring Denzel Washington, andI have never seen this movie, so
I am very excited to hear aboutit.
We chose these because they'retwo stories of individuals on
the opposite ends of racialbelief spectrums and we just

(01:43:08):
thought it would be interesting,and we hope you guys find it
interesting as well.

Remi (01:43:13):
And I've seen the film before.
It's a brilliant film and I dolook forward to talking about it
two weeks from now.

Ashley (01:43:20):
And, similar to Edward Norton, it is an Oscar snub.
Many, many, many people believethat this should have been the
movie that Denzel won an Oscarfor Best Actor.

Remi (01:43:33):
I agree with that assessment.
You and I watched Scent of aWoman with Al Pacino who beat
Denzel for the Best Actor awardthat year, and I think we can
both safely say we were notsuper big fans of that
performance.

Ashley (01:43:51):
And before we go, to give you guys a little teaser
for what is to come, we will endwith our trailer, but until
then, Court is adjourned.

Remi (01:44:02):
He was a follower who became a leader.

Dr. Sweeney (American Hi (01:44:06):
You're not an American.
We didn't land on Plymouth Rock.
Plymouth Rock landed on us Afollower who became a leader.
You're not an American.
We didn't land on Plymouth Rock.
Plymouth Rock landed on us.

Tony Kaye (01:44:12):
He brought honor to disobedience.
I suggest you look outside thatwindow.

Dr. Sweeney (American Hi (01:44:17):
You've been laying down and bowing
down for 400 years.
I think it's time to stand up.
All right, break it up.
You got what you wanted.
No, I'm not satisfied.
That's too much power for oneman to have.
And a voice to a people wholong to be heard.

(01:44:37):
You're.
Ben Hoodway, ben Boozled Melis,fred You're saying you're
anti-white.
No, you're saying I'manti-white, I'm sorry, betty, I
haven't been the best husband Ilove you.
Do you advocate violence?
No sir.

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