Catch Me If You Can

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Remi (00:08):
Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, the show where we
take a look at some of yourfavorite movies and the true
crime stories that inspired them.
I'm Remy.
I spent over a decade workingin the film and television
industry in Los Angeles,California.

Ashley (00:21):
And I'm Ashley.
I'm a clinical psychologist andforensic evaluator in the state
of Oregon.

Remi (00:28):
Welcome back to season five, everybody.
Such a big accomplishment.
I never thought we would makeit this far, but here we are, me
and Ashley back for anotherseason.
Ashley, how are you doing today?

Ashley (00:43):
I am doing great.
I also can't believe we've madeit this far and I am just super
hyped to keep going.
We actually have our next twoseasons planned out and they are
filled with such great films,such great stories that we are
so excited to talk about andshare with you guys.

Remi (01:01):
And we are super appreciative for anyone that's
tuning in for the first time, orif you've been listening for a
while, or if you're justlistening to an episode now and
then we are sincerelyappreciative.
And if you like what you heartoday, then please just leave a
like comment, follow a review.

(01:21):
All of those things help ustremendously and help us bring
better episodes to you guys inthe future.
But what are we here to discusstoday?
Ashley?

Ashley (01:33):
today we are kicking things off with a blockbuster of
a movie.
It is steven spielberg's 2002movie Catch Me If you Can
starring Leonardo DiCaprio andTom Hanks.
That is allegedly inspired bythe real-life tale of a man

(01:54):
named Frank Abagnale Jr, who isa conman turned reformed I guess
now you would say anti-crimehero.

Remi (02:05):
Is that really what he's going by?
I would beg to differ with thata little bit.
But yes, another LeonardoDiCaprio movie to kick things
off.
I know that you are one of hisbiggest fans, Ashley, because of
his star-making performance inTitanic.
But what about Steven Spielberg, the man who made the film we

(02:26):
are about to discuss?
Do you have a favorite StevenSpielberg movie that you can
think of off the top of yourhead?
I know there's so many.

Ashley (02:34):
That is a really, really tough one.
There are so many good onesSchindler's List how can you not
have that?
We also watched CloseEncounters of the Third Kind and
ET very recently.
Such good films.
But I do have a favorite, andit is Jurassic Park.
That is my favorite StevenSpielberg movie.

(02:55):
I love Jurassic Park.
It's one of those movies thatyou can watch again and again
and again and even though I'veseen it so many times and know
everything that happens and caneven say some of the dialogue,
it never gets old to me.

Remi (03:10):
Jurassic Park is definitely a banger, and they
have yet to replicate the magicthat that first film made.
Now, what is it?
30 years later, they haven'tbeen able to do it.
We just saw the recent JurassicPark movie and, spoiler alert,
it stinks.
My favorite Spielberg movie.

(03:31):
I gotta say in retrospect, wejust watched a few Spielberg
movies the past few weeks.
As you had just said, I'm gonnago with ET.
I loved ET as a child and Istill love it today, and it has
such a weird magic to it.
I still get moved when I watchthat film to this day.

(03:52):
And not to mention SavingPrivate Ryan Schindler's List,
as you mentioned.
Spielberg is one of theall-time greats and I'm pretty
sure this is the only time weare going to be discussing him.
He's not a big true crime guy.

Ashley (04:08):
I do agree with you.
Et is a really close second.
We have been actually talkingabout rewatching that for, I
think, a full year, but it wasone of those movies that was not
on any streaming service forforever.
And then, I think a week or twoago, it like popped up on Hulu
and we watched it immediatelyand I agree with you, it is so

(04:30):
good.
I even choked up and got tearyeyed.
Drew Barrymore is just thecutest.
He is the godfather to herchildren.
It's just precious.
It is a good movie and itdefinitely stands the test of
time.

Remi (04:44):
It is truly a wonderful film, and I could go on and on
about ET forever, but this filmalso stars Leonardo DiCaprio and
Tom Hanks, which means weprobably would have ended up
seeing this film regardless.
But do you have a favorite TomHanks movie?
I know he is sort of America'suncle or America's dad.

(05:06):
Everybody likes Tom Hanks.
This movie has a lot of peopleinvolved that everybody likes
minus Frank Abagnale.

Ashley (05:14):
This is another tough one because Tom Hanks also, like
Spielberg, has so many greatmovies.
When I was thinking about thisquestion, three popped into mind
and then then I sat a littlelonger and then my winner came
to my mind.
So the three that came into mymind as my favorite Tom Hanks
movies are Green Mile.

Remi (05:33):
A classic Love, michael Clarke Duncan.

Ashley (05:36):
Saving Private Ryan.

Remi (05:38):
This would be my pick.

Ashley (05:40):
And You've Got Mail.
I love that movie.
Everyone likes Sleepless inSeattle more but that movie.
I was too young when it cameout, but I'm obsessed with
You've Got Mail.
I love it.

Remi (05:51):
I know you love.
You've Got Mail and we will bediscussing Meg Ryan a little bit
with our movie two weeks fromnow.
To die for, even though she isnot the star.

Ashley (06:01):
The movie I landed on as my favorite Tom Hanks movie is
Toy Story.

Remi (06:06):
That went completely under my radar.
I wasn't even considering thatone.

Ashley (06:11):
The first one is still the best, but every time they
announce they're coming out withnew ones, it's always like, oh,
this is going to be the one,it's going to be the one that's
going to suck and bomb thefranchise.
But it never does.
They're all so good.

Remi (06:26):
That is definitely one of the best films Mr Hanks has ever
done.
I also love Forrest Gump.
I have never seen Philadelphia,believe it or not.
That is one of the films thathas been on my need to watch
list forever, but have yet toget around to it.

Ashley (06:43):
Well, we will be covering it at some point,
because it is based on a civilcase well, let's get into tom
hanks's portrayal in this film.

Remi (06:54):
Catch me, if you can.
Are you ready to get into it,ashley?

Announcer (06:59):
oh, I sure am, oh would you like to hear me tell a
joke?

Remi (07:03):
yeah, yeah, we'd love to hear me tell a joke, yeah.

Frank Abagnale Jr. (07:06):
Yeah, we'd love to hear a joke from you.
Knock, knock, who's there?
Go fuck yourselves.

Remi (07:18):
Catch Me If you Can.
Is a 2002 film directed bySteven Spielberg.
Is a 2002 film directed bySteven Spielberg, starring
Leonardo DiCaprio, tom Hanks,christopher Walken, martin Sheen
, natalie Bay, amy Adams andJames Brolin.
The screenplay is by JeffNathanson and based on the
semi-autobiographical book byFrank Abagnale Jr.

(07:43):
Book by Frank Abagnale.

Ashley (07:44):
Jr which, until after this movie came out, was
marketed for 30 years as astraight-up autobiography.
No semi involved.

Remi (07:55):
We will be debunking that as the podcast continues.
I'm sure Frank Abagnale Jr soldthe film rights to his
autobiography back in 1980, and,according to Abagnale,
legendary TV producers NormanLear and Bud Yorkin bought the
rights after seeing him on theTonight Show starring Johnny

(08:17):
Carson.

Ashley (08:18):
That is true.
Bud Yorkin did originally buythe rights.

Remi (08:22):
Two years later they sold the rights to Columbia Pictures,
which eventually passed them toproducer Hal Bartlett.
Bartlett and his businesspartner Michael J Lasky hired
screenwriter Stephen Coons, butthe project inevitably stalled
after Bartlett passed awaybefore it could find a

(08:42):
distributor.
In 1990, according to DailyVariety, executive producer
Michael Shane acquired therights for Paramount Pictures.
By December 1997, the rightshad landed at Hollywood Pictures
, a division of Disney, but whenthe project went into
turnaround the rights changedhands again, this time going to

(09:04):
Bungalow 78 Productions, adivision of TriStar Pictures.
From there the script finallymade its way into the hands of
legendary filmmaker StevenSpielberg over at DreamWorks.
So it changed hands quite a fewtimes before finally finding
someone to make it finallyfinding someone to make it.

Ashley (09:28):
One thing I read in my research of it is the reason why
it took so long to get madewasn't necessarily because of a
lack of interest in the project,but more so because they just
didn't know how to take thisbook and make it into a movie.

Remi (09:39):
Well, screenwriter Jeff Nathanson first got involved
after watching a tape ofAbagnale speaking at one of his
public seminars.
He later discovered thatAbagnale had also written a book
detailing his escapades andbrought it to DreamWorks
pitching the idea to make into amovie, even though he didn't
actually read the book untilafter he had already been hired

(10:03):
to write the script.
Until after he had already beenhired to write the script,
nathanson began working on thescreenplay around the same time
that Titanic came out, and sincethere weren't a lot of young
actors who could convincinglyplace someone from ages 17 to 28
at the time, nathanson wouldoften joke maybe we'll get
Leonardo DiCaprio to be in themovie.

(10:24):
He would eat his words by Julyof 2000, when DiCaprio read the
script while he was in Romeshooting Gangs of New York and
signed on to star in the picturesoon after.
David Fincher, one of myfavorite directors, was briefly
attached to direct in early 2000, but would later drop out in

(10:46):
favor of making Panic Room.

Ashley (10:48):
I think it would have been much darker, that's for
sure.

Remi (10:52):
Next up was Gore Verbinski , who would go on to direct
three of the Pirates of theCaribbean films.
Verbinski even got as far ascasting the film with James
Gandolfini as Carl Hanreddy, edHarris as Frank Abagnale Sr and
Chloe Savenier as Brenda Strong.
But due to DiCaprio'sscheduling conflicts with Gangs

(11:13):
of New York, verbinskieventually dropped out of the
project as well.
By May of 2001,.
What's Eating?
Gilbert Grape?
Director Lassie Holstromentered negotiations to direct,
but he left the project twomonths later.

Ashley (11:28):
Session underrated Leo film.

Remi (11:30):
I love what's Eating Gilbert Grape.
I think it's sort of forgottenat this point since the two lead
actors have done so much, butanyone who has not seen this
film, highest of recommends forwhat's Eating Gilbert Grape.
After the what's Eating GilbertGrape.
After the what's Eating GilbertGrape director left the project
.
Both Ed Harris and ChloeSavigny exited as well, though

(11:53):
DiCaprio and Gandolfini remainedattached Around.
This time, spielberg,co-founder of DreamWorks,
offered the film to Milos Forman, whom you may remember from our
People vs Larry Flint episode.
While the deal was beingnegotiated, spielberg ultimately
began warming up to the idea ofdirecting the film himself.

Steven Spielberg (12:15):
I had just come off of Minority Report,
just finished shooting it and Iwas sort of in a dark place,
having made two semi-darkpictures back to back, and
thought, wow, what a breath offresh air this will be for me.
I really sometimes enjoy thatwhiplash sensation going from
Jurassic Park to Schindler'sList, and I had a chance now to
go from Minority Report to CatchMe, if you Can so selfishly.

(12:37):
I looked at this story as anopportunity for me to take a
really great creative occasionand work with a young man who
I've always admired, who one daywas kind enough, just based on
my calling his agent, to send mydaughter his biggest fan an
autographed picture, and thatmeant a lot in my family and
made me a hero amongst my kids,and I got DiCaprio's signature

(12:59):
on a picture for my daughter,who was at the time about seven
years old.

Ashley (13:04):
I must say I have never been more jealous of a
seven-year-old in my life.
But what I especially loveabout that quote is I think it
really explains a lot about whySpielberg's films are so diverse
, why he has movies that aredramas, that are thrillers and
ones that do have more of thiscomedy aspect.

(13:25):
It makes a lot of sense thatafter directing a very serious
movie, that he would want tolighten things up a bit or just
kind of get out of thatheadspace and do something more
light-hearted and this issomething that I feel like the
best of the best directors do.

Remi (13:43):
They explore different genres, they try different
things.
They get out of their comfortzone.
They will do a serious film,then they'll do a comedy.
Richard Linklater is anotherdirector that I think does this
brilliantly, and I just love itwhen directors don't get boxed
into one specific thing and canexplore other stuff, like this.

Ashley (14:05):
And I think with any profession it helps with burnout
.
If someone is just stickinginto this box of very, very
dramatic movies that deal with alot of loss, sorrow and death,
I can imagine it would be reallyhard to not start to get into
that same mindset yourself.

Remi (14:24):
By August of 2001,.
Spielberg had officially signedon to direct but now had to
find a replacement for JamesGandolfini, who was forced to
exit the project due toscheduling conflicts with the
Sopranos.
Spielberg was initiallyhesitant about approaching Tom
Hanks to fill the part of CarlHanrity, since he assumed Hanks

(14:47):
wouldn't be interested inplaying a supporting role
because he was already one ofHollywood's biggest stars at the
time, having previously won twoOscars for his performance in
Forrest Gump and Philadelphia.
However, hanks quickly setSpielberg straight, telling him
A good part is a good part, nomatter what the size.

(15:08):
However, hanks quickly setSpielberg straight, telling him
the search for someone toreplace Chloe Sevigny as Brenda
Strong took several months untileventually, spielberg and
producer Walter F Parks cameacross an audition tape from Amy
Adams, which Parks called asfresh and honest as anyone we'd
ever seen, which was exactlywhat the role needed.

(15:32):
Christopher Walken was soonbrought in to play Frank
Abagnale Sr.
Thanks to Walter Parks'suggestion, martin Sheen was
cast as Roger Strong, brenda'sfather, because, as Spielberg
put it, sheen had a naturallyintimidating presence.
No-transcript, one of theactresses who auditioned was

(16:15):
Natalie Bay, who ended uplanding the role.
And finally, spielberg had seenJennifer Garner on her TV show
Alias, and offered her a smallrole in the film, which ended up
being one of the more memorablecameos, in my humble opinion.
Filming was originallyscheduled to begin in January of
2002, but was delayed untilFebruary.
Shooting took place acrossvarious locations, including Los

(16:38):
Angeles, burbank, downey, newYork City, quebec City, montreal
and Ontario InternationalAirport, which stood in for
Miami International Airport.
In total, the film was shot in147 locations in just 52 days,
which is staggering.

Ashley (16:59):
I was gonna say that is an insane amount of locations
and not a lot of time just underthree months.

Remi (17:08):
Leonardo called it one of the most intense filming
situations that he had ever beena part of.
But enough dilly-dallying.
Should we finally get into ourseason premiere of Steven
Spielberg's Catch Me If you Can?

Ashley (17:24):
I can't wait, let's do this.

Remi (17:38):
Our story begins in 1977 with Frank Abagnale Jr, played
by Leonardo DiCaprio, appearingon a game show called To Tell
the Truth alongside two othermen, all of which are dressed as
pilots.
As the contestant attempts tofigure out which of the three is
the real Frank Abagnale Jr.
Frank is introduced to theaudience as the man who

(18:02):
successfully impersonated a PanAm airline pilot, served as
chief resident pediatrician atGeorgia Hospital, worked as an
assistant attorney general inLouisiana and cashed nearly four
million dollars in fraudulentchecks across all 50 states and

(18:22):
26 foreign countries between1964 and 1967, all by the age of
19.

Ashley (18:30):
So in this real episode that you can find on YouTube I
found it and I watched it Frankis the only one dressed as a
pilot, one is dressed as adoctor and the other one is
dressed in like a jail suit,like a convict.

Remi (18:45):
As the judges question the panel on the show, frank
reveals that the man who finallycaught him was an FBI agent
named Carl Hanrity, played bythe one and only Tom Hanks.
We then flash back to ChristmasEve 1969 in Marseille, france,
where Carl pays Frank a visit ata grim French prison where he

(19:08):
is being held in maximumsecurity.
The two speak through a smallgrated slot in the cell door
where we can hear Frank coughingviolently from inside, claiming
to be unwell and in desperateneed of medical attention.
Carl, however, isn't buying itand believes that Frank is
faking, so presses on byexplaining that Frank will be

(19:31):
extradited back to the US thefollowing morning.
Carl continues, but Franksuddenly collapses, causing Carl
to shout out for a doctor, asprison officers rush in and
escort Frank to the infirmary.
Doctor.
As prison officers rush in andescort Frank to the infirmary,
however, the second the guardshave their back turned.

(19:51):
Frank makes a break for it,slipping out a nearby door,
leaving it slightly ajar duringhis hasty escape.
Unfortunately for Frank, hedoesn't seem to have been faking
his poor state of health so isphysically unable to get very
far before being recaptured.
We then flashback again to aprevious Christmas, six years

(20:14):
earlier, in New Rochelle, newYork, 1963, where Frank Abagnale
Sr, played by ChristopherWalken, is being honored with a
lifetime membership to the NewRochelle Rotary Club.
In the audience, 15-year-oldFrank Jr and his mother, paula
Abagnale, played by Natalie Bay,watch proudly as Frank Sr

(20:36):
delivers the following speech.

To Die For Trailer (20:40):
Two little mice fell in a bucket of cream.
The first mouse quickly gave upand drowned.
The second mouse wouldn't quit.
He struggled so hard thateventually he churned that cream
into butter and crawled out.
Gentlemen, as of this moment, Iam that second mouse.

Ashley (21:06):
I am so moved by that Remy.
I think I found my vows.

Remi (21:10):
I love Christopher Walken he makes a story about a Sr is
actually James Brolin, husbandof Barbara Streisand and father
of Thanos Josh Brolin.

(21:31):
Back home, as Frank Jr danceswith his mother, paula, in the
living room, frank Sr hangs hisRotary Club plaque on the wall.
While recounting the story ofhow he first laid eyes on Paula
dancing on stage during a showfor American soldiers while he
was stationed in France duringthe war, frank instantly fell

(21:53):
head over heels for Paula, evenswearing to the other men around
him.
I will not leave France withoutthat woman.
Frank, of course, kept his word, culminating years later into
the happy family we seeblissfully waltzing together
around the Christmas tree thatvery evening.

Ashley (22:12):
And they did actually meet during World War II.

Remi (22:15):
The following morning, Frank Sr takes Frank Jr into the
city to get a new suit for abusiness meeting.
Though the store is closed whenthey arrive, Frank Sr still
manages to charm a femaleemployee into opening the doors
early by claiming that theyurgently needed the suit to
attend his grandfather's funeral.

(22:36):
Frank Sr even offers the womana small necklace as an
additional incentive to let themquote-unquote borrow the suit
for the afternoon.
After securing the suit, FrankSr has Frank Jr pose as his
limousine driver to help FrankSr appear more important when

(22:56):
arriving for his meeting withChase National Bank.
During the meeting, Frank Srattempts to secure a loan, but
the bank declines his requestdue to his unresolved issues
with the IRS, including beinginvestigated for tax fraud.
With the loan denied, he andFrank Jr are forced to sell the

(23:17):
family car and buy a cheaper onejust to get by.

Ashley (23:21):
So this is really interesting.
Spielberg is trying to kind offrame this as Frank Jr learned
his con man ways at a young agefrom his dad.

Remi (23:32):
That's what I always took it as yes.

Ashley (23:35):
And in reality, none of this was even in Frank's
autobiography, much less true.
His dad worked as like a mailcarrier.

Remi (23:45):
Though Frank Jr continues to idolize his father, the
financial strain begins to takea toll on his parents' marriage,
which is only exacerbated evenfurther when Frank Sr is forced
to sell the family home and moveeveryone into a smaller
apartment.
For Frank Jr's 16th birthday,frank Sr opens a checking

(24:08):
account in his son's name atChase Bank, complete with a
checkbook containing 50 blankchecks.
Eventually, after attendingprivate school his entire life,
frank Jr is transferred to apublic school in an effort to
help cut down on his family'sexpenses.
On his first day of class,frank Jr shows up wearing his

(24:29):
old private school uniform andis mocked relentlessly for it by
one of the other students.
Instead of backing down,however, frank boldly acts as if
he is the substitute teacherand begins lecturing the entire
French class.

Catch Me If You Can Clip (24:47):
Quiet down, people.
My name is Mr Abagnale, that'sAbagnale, not Abagnale?
Not Abagnale, but Abagnale.
Now somebody please tell mewhere you left off in your
textbooks.
Excuse me, people, If I need toask again, I'm going to write
up the entire class.

(25:07):
Take your seats.

Ashley (25:09):
I have a comment and a question.
My comment is I get Leonardo.
Had a baby face for a reallylong time, but Homeboy does not
look 16 in this.

Remi (25:20):
Neither does the student he's trying to humiliate in the
scene either.
I will add.

Ashley (25:27):
And second, at any point in the movie does he try to say
he was a college professor?

Remi (25:33):
No, that is not in the film.
This is the only portion of thefilm where he pretends to be an
academic teacher of any sortteacher of any sort.

Ashley (25:47):
So in his autobiography he said he taught at Brigham
Young University for not a verylong time, just two semesters.
So I'm assuming that'sSpielberg's way of making it
kind of more of a coherentstoryline, by still keeping that
teacher aspect but making it soit was much younger.

Remi (26:01):
Spielberg was streamlining the story and I just have to
comment on what Frank did inthis scene.
It is called a confidence con,I believe, where someone
literally just acts confident asif I'm this person in this
place, I'm supposed to be heredoing this thing and, because of
the person's confidence behindwhat they're doing, everyone

(26:23):
around them thinks that they arelegit.
It is very impressive whenpeople are able to pull this
sort of thing off in real life,at least in my book.
Frank continues posing as thesubstitute teacher for an entire
week, even giving out homework,calling parent-teacher
conferences and planning a fieldtrip to a French bread factory

(26:46):
in Trenton, before eventuallybeing found out.

Ashley (26:50):
Where was the real substitute during this entire
week?

Remi (26:54):
You didn't see it in the scene, but where he is talking
to the class.
At the very, very beginning thereal substitute teacher comes
into the classroom like hey, I'msupposed to be here
substituting.
And Frank passes it off as ifoh, you're here too.
They must have hired twosubstitute teachers, you should
go home.
And the lady leaves like reallyfrustrated that she got booked

(27:18):
for something that anotherteacher was already on.
So yeah, again confidencescheme.
He acted like he was supposedto be there and even the real
substitute teacher didn'tquestion it.

Ashley (27:29):
I mean that would be believable.
She doesn't have anyconnections with the school at
all.

Remi (27:34):
Yes, if it was a real teacher.
That stretches credibility.
Substitute it's easier to buy.
Though Frank does eventuallyface consequences for his
actions, frank Sr still seemsrather impressed that his own
son was able to pull off such awild deception for an entire
week, and I would be impressedtoo, honestly.

(27:56):
Some time later, frank catcheshis mother having an affair with
James Brolin, but promises notto tell on her.
Paula divorces Frank Sr notlong after and personal side
note here Spielberg's parents'divorce was a huge influence on
so many of his films, includingET, close Encounters, war of the

(28:20):
Worlds, the Fablemans.
Even Indiana Jones would bickerand argue with his love
interests constantly, to thepoint where I remember thinking
as a child how in the hell arethese two people supposed to be
in love if they're alwaysfighting and can't stand to be
in the same room together?

Ashley (28:38):
So later, after this movie came out, frank started
interjecting this like huge sobtale about his parents divorce,
about how, like he was aperfectly well-adjusted young
man until he was pulled out ofclass one day and brought into
court and the judge broke it tohim that his parents were

(28:59):
getting divorced when he was 15and it like ruined his life and
led to him being homeless on thestreets when in actuality, his
parents had been separated forlike three years prior to that.
But after this movie came out,he in all of his speeches kind
of framed his whole.
The reason why he became aquote unquote con man was

(29:20):
because of his parents divorce,and I do not think that it is
just a coincidence that hestarted speaking about this
after he met Spielberg and thisis how it was portrayed in the
movie knowing how Spielbergportrays marriages and how much
his parents' divorce impactedhim and his entire career.

Remi (29:41):
In the film.
This is the deciding incidentthat sends him on his path to
all of these insane cons.
Traumatized by his parents'divorce, frank runs away from
home by writing a check for atrain ticket to Grand Central
Station, then writes two morechecks for temporary lodging,

(30:02):
all of which inevitably bounce.
Checks for temporary lodging,all of which inevitably bounce.
One evening, after finding yetanother place to stay after
being kicked out of the first,frank uses an exacto knife to
alter his birth date and lastname on one of his checks, then
begins going from bank to bankacross the city the following
day, unsuccessfully attemptingto cash it.

(30:25):
During his efforts, franknotices that Pan Am airline
pilots were remarkablywell-respected and treated with
admiration wherever they went,giving Frank a bright idea.
I feel like we need to chime inhere a little bit.
Pan Am is a defunct airline andback in the day, for whatever

(30:46):
reason, airline pilots werereally, really well respected.
They were practicallycelebrities wherever they went.

Ashley (30:56):
Anyone working with air travel because it wasn't as
affordable and accessible as itis today.

Remi (31:02):
People used to only dress up in suit and ties and nice
dresses whenever they traveled,which is very, very different
from today and how I dress atthe airport when traveling.
Posing as a high schooljournalist writing a story on
Pan Am, frank arranges aninterview with one of the
higher-ups working at theairline.

(31:24):
While there, frank takesdetailed notes and even manages
to obtain an expired airlinepersonnel badge, along with a
photocopy of an FAA pilot'slicense.
Afterward, frank calls theuniform supplier, pretending to
be a pilot who lost his uniformduring a layover, and is

(31:45):
referred to a local vendor wherehe is fitted for a new pilot
uniform, with the cost beingdeducted from his next paycheck,
which, of course, does notexist Now.
Outfitted in full Pan Am gear,frank finds it much easier to
cash his forged checks, since atthe time, as we mentioned,

(32:07):
pilots were held in such highregard that no one would ever
question him.
Soon, frank has enough cash tobook himself a luxury hotel
suite, where he also learns thatairline employees can get up to
$300 in paycheck advances fromthe hotel itself.

Ashley (32:26):
This is also back in the day where you didn't need to
like write a follow-up phonenumber on your check in case it
bounced Like it would take awhile for checks to cash.
You could just cash it and getmoney immediately.
There was just trust there thatthe piece of paper you were
handing over was actuallyconnected to money.

Remi (32:45):
And I almost feel like we need to explain what a check is.
We don't use checks in modernday society.
I have personally never writtena check in my entire life, but
it was basically a slip of bankpaper given to you, attached to
your account, where you couldwrite out an amount as well as

(33:07):
who you were writing that amountout to, and it could be cash
later on.
This is not really used today,though checks are still
available, so just wanted tothrow that out there.
Have you ever written a check?
I have never written a check,not once in my entire life, or
had to balance a checkbook.

Ashley (33:28):
Yes, I know how to balance a checkbook.
I don't do it anymore.
I haven't done it in a longtime, but I have written checks,
even fairly recently.
I had to write a check toMultnomah County for our art tax
fee just in April.

Remi (33:45):
After finding out that he can get $300 in paycheck
advances from the hotel, frankbegins to forge Pan Am paychecks
, which proved to be even morelucrative than his original scam
.
Frank soon discovers that he canalso cash his forged checks
directly at airports.
But during his first attempt,frank is mistaken for an actual

(34:09):
pilot and ends up riding in thejump seat of a departing Pan Am
flight, while on layover thatnight Frank sleeps with a
stewardess, losing his virginityin the process, which he calls
the best first date ever.
Sometime later, after coming tothe realization that women love
a man in uniform, frank flirtswith a bank teller played in a

(34:34):
small cameo by Elizabeth Bankswho unknowingly shares insider
details about how checks aremade and processed.
Frank uses this information andbuys himself an MICR encoder,
which is a machine used to printthe magnetic routing numbers
found at the bottom of checks.
With the encoder, frank beginsmanipulating routing numbers,

(34:58):
opening up new bank accounts andcashing forged checks, which
are then rerouted to anotherbranch across the country,
giving Frank at least two weeksbefore the fraud is eventually
detected.

Ashley (35:12):
I'm pretty sure this is even way more lucrative and
intense than how it's evendepicted in the autobiography.

Remi (35:20):
The scale and complexity of Frank's scheme eventually
catches the attention of AgentCarl Hanrity and the FBI, who
trace Frank's location back tothe Tropicana Motel in Hollywood
, which I used to drive bypretty regularly back when I
lived in Burbank.
When Carl arrives at Frank'sroom, however, Frank manages to

(35:43):
pull a fast one on old AgentHanreddy in a scene that reminds
me a little bit of those oldBugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd
cartoons from back in the 1950s.

That's the new IBM Selectric.
Put your hands on your head.
It's a print type in fiveseconds.
Shut up, Pop out the ball.
You know he's got over 200checks here.
Hands on your head, he'sdrafting.
He even has little payrollenvelopes.
Put it down.
Put it down, drop it.
Relax, you're late.
All right, my name's Alan BarryAllen, united States Secret
Service.
Your boy out the window.

(36:27):
My partner has him in custody.
I don't know what you'retalking about.

Remi (36:29):
You think the fbi are the only ones on this guy.
I mean, come on, come on, he'sdabbling in government checks
here.
Been following a paper trail onthis guy for months now.
Quick side note here barryallen is the real name of the dc
superhero the flash, in caseanyone was wondering.

Ashley (36:40):
And you're telling me that the FBI is so invested of
finding this 19-year-old who'sjust cashing a couple fraudulent
checks, so much so that they'regoing to just show up at his
hotel wielding a gun, pointingit at his face, acting like he
just killed 50 people.

Remi (37:00):
They did not know he was at the hotel.
They were tracing the checksback to various locations and
this was the last location wherea check was cashed, so they
were simply going there toinvestigate and found out that
he was at the hotel when theywent to investigate so went up
to the room and Frank pulledthis again confidence scheme,

(37:23):
acting like he was anotherinvestigator who had gotten
there before Hanredi did.

Ashley (37:29):
Either way, this isn't the kind of crime that's gonna
cause people to pull their gunsout and threaten to kill someone
over.

Remi (37:37):
After confidently lying his way out of the motel room
along with all of the evidence,frank makes his escape, just as
Agent Hanrity realizes that he'sbeen had.
But at least he knows whatFrank's face looks like now, in
the days that follow, franknotices that his Pan Am

(37:59):
escapades have finally made thepapers.
So, after watching Sean Conneryplay James Bond in Dr no, frank
celebrates by buying himselfthe exact same suit and car he
had seen in the film, whileadopting a much more polished
and suave persona.
This leads to a random and,frankly, unnecessary scene where

(38:25):
Frank hooks up with a high-endprostitute played by Jennifer
Garner, which ends in Frankwriting her a $1,000 check to
pay for services which obviouslyshe won't be able to cash.

Ashley (38:40):
So the reason why this is in here is throughout his
whole public speaking career,Frank maintained that he never
conned a single individual orsmall business, except for this
sex worker, and in earlierinterviews he tells this story
in a way that makes him seemjust kind of like this guy.

(39:02):
That is just a sex machine andhe's joking about it and it's
really gross how he talks aboutit.
But I think that's why it's inthere.
It was something that he talkedabout a lot in his early public
appearances.

Remi (39:17):
In the film he is very adamant about going down to the
hotel lobby to cash a check toget her some actual physical
money.
But Jennifer Garner's characteris the one who insists that he
write her a check because he canwrite a check for a larger
amount of money than he would beable to get at the front desk.

(39:40):
So in the end, according to thefilm, it's her ideas, not
Frank's.
That Christmas, while Carl isworking late at FBI headquarters
, he receives an unexpectedphone call from Frank.
Hello.
Barry Allen Secret Service.

I've been trying to track you down
now for the last couple of hours.
What do you want?
I wanted to apologize for whathappened out in Los Angeles.
Uh-uh, uh-uh, no, no, you don'tapologize to me.
Do you always work on ChristmasEve?

Carl, I volunteered, so men with
families could go home early.

You look like you were wearing a
wedding ring out in Los Angeles.
I thought maybe you had afamily, no, no family.

You want to talk to me?
Let's talk face to face.

All right.
I have my suite at theStuyvesant Arms room 3113.

Remi (40:48):
In the morning I leave for Las Vegas for the weekend, and
I just wanted to add that Frankgives his real hotel room number
and address to Carl during thisscene.

(41:08):
But of course Carl doesn'tbelieve him, because why would
Frank give him that informationvoluntarily?
After the call, carl begins tosuspect that the person they've
been chasing may be a juvenile,so begins to investigate various
reports of underage runaways.
This eventually leads the FBIto Frank's mother, where they
are able to confirm that theforger they've been tracking is
in actuality a 17-year-old whohas already cashed out $1.3

(41:31):
million in fraudulent checks.
We then cut to Frank's newresidence at the Riverbend
Apartments in Atlanta, georgia,where a lively party is
currently underway.
During the festivities, one ofFrank's party guests is injured,
so Frank visits the hospitallater that night to check in on

(41:52):
them.
While there, frank meets anervous young nurse with a
mouthful of braces named BrendaStrong, played by Amy Adams,
whose character kind of lookslike that creepy little girl
from Finding Nemo who keptobnoxiously tapping on the glass
in the dentist's office.

Ashley (42:11):
That's what exactly popped in my mind.

Remi (42:14):
for some reason, After flirting with Brenda, frank
claims that he is a doctor andcasually asks if the hospital is
currently hiring.
Soon after, frank forgeshimself a diploma from Harvard
Medical School, along with animpressive resume, and lands
himself a position as an ERsupervisor for the uneventful

(42:36):
midnight to 8am shift.
Under the alias of Dr Connors,frank gets by by memorizing
medical jargon he sees ontelevision, which leads us to a
scene which I have quoted formany, many years, but nobody
ever seems to get the reference.

Dr Harris yes, do you concur?
Concur with what, sir?
With what Dr Ashland just said?
Do you concur?
Concur with what, sir?
With what Dr Ashland just said,do you concur?
Oh well, it was a bicycleaccident, the boy told us.
So you concur.

To Die For Trailer (43:14):
Concur.
I think we should take an x-ray, then stitch him out and put
him in a walking cast.
Very good Dr.

Ashton , very good.
Well, you don't seem to havemuch need for me, carry on.

Ashley (43:31):
And when Frank talked about his quote unquote time as
a doctor, he did say that helearned medical jargon by
watching TV and reading books.
And that's what he would do.
He would go in and just askeveryone around him like what
would you do?
What would you do?
What would you do?
All right, I concur.

Remi (43:51):
One evening during an overnight shift at the hospital,
frank and Brenda becomeromantically involved after she
reveals she's had her bracesremoved.
Reveals she's had her bracesremoved Side note here to get
the performance he wanted fromAmy Adams during her kissing
scene, director Steven Spielbergtold her to imagine that she
was starving and that LeonardoDiCaprio was a cheeseburger.

Ashley (44:15):
I can't think of a more intimidating person I would have
to kiss on screen than DiCaprio.
I would be petrified.

Remi (44:22):
I don't have a clip of the scene, but if I did, you could
see that she is literally tryingto eat his face off in the
scene.
It's pretty hilarious.
Amy Adams is underutilized andreally, really great in this
movie.
Meanwhile, carl Hanrity pays avisit to Frank Sr, hoping to

(44:43):
gather more information.
Though Frank Sr isuncooperative, hanreddy manages
to spot a letter from Frank Jrsitting on the coffee table and
memorizes the return address.
Back in Atlanta, frank learnsthat Brenda was disowned by her
parents after having an abortiontwo years earlier.

(45:04):
Wanting to help, frank offersto speak with her father and ask
for her hand in marriage sothat Brenda can regain her
family's approval by marrying adoctor.
We then cut to New Orleans,where Frank meets Brenda's
parents, roger Strong, played byMartin Sheen, and Carol Strong,

(45:24):
played by Nancy Linehan.
The Strong family is devoutlyreligious and deeply traditional
, but Frank effortlessly charmstheir socks off, since Roger is
an attorney.
Frank also offhandedly mentionsthat he had passed the bar exam
several years ago and has beenconsidering leaving the medical

(45:46):
field in order to pursue lawagain.

Ashley (45:49):
Man, the amount of student debt this guy must have.
Going to medical school and lawschool Woof.

Remi (45:56):
Roger is impressed with Frank's reputable facade and by
the end of the evening he hasgiven Frank his blessing to
marry Brenda and even offers hima job working as his assistant
prosecutor.
However, in order to secure hissoon-to-be father-in-law's
offer of employment, frank mustfirst take the Louisiana State

(46:18):
Bar Exam, which he miraculouslypasses without cheating or using
any other methods of deception.
Ashley, this has to be bullshit.

Ashley (46:29):
In his autobiography he claimed he took it three times,
passed on the third time and Ithink he estimated it took him
three months to pass the barexam, with two fails and one
pass.
One of the ways that this claimwas debunked is that at the
time he claimed to have passedthe bar exam in Louisiana, it
was only offered every sixmonths.

(46:50):
So if his claim was true, itwould have taken him a minimum
of a year and a half to pass it.

Remi (46:57):
This is one of the big things that I remember seeing in
the film and thinkingimmediately bullshit.
I have a lot of friends whohave gone to law school and had
to take the bar exam and thereis no fucking way that this guy,
who has literally no experience, could have somehow gotten all

(47:18):
the information memorized topass this within what you're
saying three months.
That's ridiculous.

Ashley (47:24):
Even passing it on your own, without getting specialized
education, I feel like onlysomeone who's a genius could do.
Law is an area of study that isvast.
Criminal law is very differentthan civil law, which is very
different than property law,which is very different than
business law.
But the bar exam has it all.

(47:45):
So you have to have a littlebit of knowledge in all of these
areas and have that allmemorized to pass this written
exam.

Remi (47:53):
After passing the bar, Frank continued watching
television shows to study legaltactics and courtroom
proceedings, giving Frank justenough know-how to stumble his
way through a routinepreliminary hearing.

This is a photograph of the
defendant's signature on acanceled check.
Now here is an enlargement ofthat same signature, which
matches the signature on theletters that he wrote to Mrs
Simon, which discussed thepossibility of defrauding the
great state of Louisiana.
Your Honor, ladies andgentlemen of the jury, this is
irrefutable evidence that thedefendant is in fact lying.

Mr Connors, this is a preliminary hearing.
There is no defendant, there isno jury.
It's just me, son.
What in the hell is wrong withyou?

Remi (48:59):
Brenda and Frank have also both moved in with Brenda's
parents during this time, withthe Strong family fully
accepting Frank as one of theirown.
Things finally come to a headat Frank and Brenda's engagement
party when Carl shows upuninvited along with a team of
FBI agents.

(49:20):
Panicked and cornered, frankquickly pulls Brenda into their
bedroom and confesses everything.
After telling her that theyneed to leave immediately, frank
reveals two large suitcasesfilled to the brim with cash
which had been stashed justabove their bed frame.
As Brenda stands there utterlydumbfounded and frozen in

(49:44):
disbelief, frank grabs thesuitcases, tells her to meet him
at the Miami airport in twodays, then jumps out the window
and disappears into the night.

Ashley (49:54):
What a tragic end to such a happy evening.

Remi (49:58):
When Frank arrives at the airport two days later for he
and Brenda's proposed rendezvous, he spots several federal
agents already there waiting forhim.
With his escape plancompromised, frank does what he
does best and decides toimprovise local universities,

(50:24):
posing as a Pan Am pilot,claiming that Pan Am is
launching a future stewardessflight crew program, and he will
be visiting nearby collegecampuses to select eight
potential candidates.
After making his selections,frank, accompanied by eight
college co-eds who all somehowgot their own Pan Am stewardess
uniforms from somewhere,casually stroll through the

(50:47):
Miami airport right past thefederal agents, who don't even
notice Frank because they justcan't keep their eyes off of all
the lovely ladies.
Several months later, frank hasexpanded his Czech
counterfeiting operation toSouth America, australia, egypt
and Singapore, the onlydifference this time being that
Frank is no longer forging fakechecks but is now printing real

(51:10):
ones using a massive industrialmachine.
Hanredi is eventually able totrack this machine's origins
back to Mont-Richard, france,where Carl finds Frank operating
the enormous check printingmachine alone in an abandoned
warehouse on Christmas Eve 1967.

(51:30):
After a heart-to-heart withCarl, frank surrenders and is
finally arrested outside by twodozen French police officers.
Side note here the real FrankAbagnale Jr makes a cameo in
this scene as the French officerwho arrests Leonardo DiCaprio.
We then cut back to Frank beingextradited back to America on a

(51:52):
commercial airline, where he isinformed by Carl that his father
, frank Sr, passed away whileFrank was on the lam.
This news devastates Frank andhe is allowed to take a moment
to compose himself in theplane's lavatory as they make
their descent into LaGuardia.
However, when Frank is gone fora suspiciously long amount of

(52:15):
time, carl and the other agentsbust through the door only to
discover that Frank hasmysteriously vanished.
Bust through the door only todiscover that Frank has
mysteriously vanished.
It turns out that Frank somehowmanaged to loosen the screws
around the toilet's paneling,allowing him to slip into the
lower section of the aircraftand escape through an opening in
the landing gear compartmentjust as the plane touched down.

(52:37):
During his escape, frank makesit all the way to his mother's
house, only to see through awindow that she has remarried
and now has a young daughterwith her new husband, played by
James Broland.
Moments later, frank issurrounded by federal agents and
arrested, yet again on thefront lawn on.

(53:04):
Frank is convicted and sentencedto 12 years in Atlanta's
maximum security prison and keptprimarily in isolation.
At the judge's request, thefollowing year, carl pays Frank
a visit on Christmas, continuingtheir tradition even while
Frank is incarcerated.
Carl brings along a case he'sbeen working on and Frank is
able to identify subtle detailsin a forged check which
ultimately helps Carl in hisinvestigation.

(53:26):
Because of Frank's expertise inidentifying counterfeit checks,
he is eventually given aposition working with the FBI's
Financial Crimes Division toserve out the remainder of his
sentence as an employee of thefederal government, of his
sentence as an employee of thefederal government.
Just before the closing credits, we're told that Frank Abagnale

(53:51):
Jr has been married for 26years, he has three sons and
lives a quiet life in theMidwest.
Since his release from prisonin 1974, frank has helped the
FBI capture some of the world'smost elusive check forgers and
counterfeiters and is consideredone of the world's most
foremost authorities on bankfraud and forgery.
Frank has also designed many ofthe secure checks that bank and

(54:13):
Fortune 500 companies use everyday For his services.
These companies pay FrankAbagnale Jr millions of dollars
a year.
Frank and Carl remain closefriends to this day.
And that was Steven Spielberg's.
Catch Me, if you Can.
So, ashley, do you have anyinitial thoughts on the Steven

(54:35):
Spielberg story?

Ashley (54:37):
So this probably isn't too surprising, since it's a
running theme, but I have seenthis movie, but not in a very,
very, very long time.
I don't even think.
When I saw it for the firsttime, I realized that it was
quote unquote, inspired by atrue story, but I do remember
enjoying it and what youdescribed.
To me this seems like a veryfun, intriguing, captivating

(54:58):
movie, and I do recall that TomHanks and Leo both do a superb
job in their respective roles.
What was your experiencere-watching this movie?
I know you've seen it before.

Remi (55:11):
I enjoyed this movie.
I have always enjoyed thismovie and I agree with Spielberg
when he said this is alight-hearted change for him.
This is not a dark, seriousfilm.
This is probably lighter thanthe majority of the films we
will be discussing this season,actually, so it was refreshing

(55:32):
in that regard.
But even when I watched it backin the day when I was much,
much younger, I rememberthinking this has a smell of
bullshit to it.
There's no way that this guywas able to pull off all of
these elaborate cons.
Which begs the question Ashley,do you think it is okay for a

(55:54):
person to fake it until theymake it as far as a job goes?

Ashley (55:59):
You know that's a tough question.
On the one hand, my shortanswer is yes, I think a lot of
people, especially when they'reapplying for a job and trying to
seek employment.
You are putting your best footforward.
You're going to try toexaggerate your accomplishments,
make yourself seem like themost qualified candidate.

(56:21):
You're going to say things like, yes, I'm proficient in Excel,
when really your experience isyou don't know the ins and outs.
That's just one example thatpops into my head.
So I think things like that,where you're exaggerating your
qualifications for a bit, whenit's an area that you know, if
you get the job, you canprobably learn the requisite

(56:43):
skills you need pretty quickly,Do I think it's okay to bake it
until you make it for a job whenpeople's lives are literally on
the line, such as a doctor, apilot and a lawyer?
Absolutely not.
That's reprehensible.

Remi (56:58):
And I totally agree there I have done what many of us out
there have done and lied on myresume or exaggerated skills and
things like that in order toget my foot in the door.
But most of those were veryground level positions that I
would be getting my foot in thedoor at.
So if I messed up and didn't doa good job, I would get fired

(57:20):
and they would just be able tohire someone else With the jobs
that Frank was impersonating adoctor or a lawyer or teacher or
pilot for that matter.
If he fucked up, people's liveswould have been jeopardized

(58:04):
no-transcript.
Well, with that, let's get intothe release of Catch Me If you
Can.
After publishing hisautobiography in 1980, Frank
Abagnale Jr began tellingaudiences that he had once been

(58:24):
on the FBI's top 10 most wantedfugitives list.

Ashley (58:29):
Not only that, he said he was the youngest to ever be
on the list.

Remi (58:34):
This claim eventually made its way into the marketing for
Catch Me If you Can leading upto the film's release.
Due to the media attentionsurrounding the film, reporters
began to inevitably investigatethe legitimacy of Abagnale's
past statements, and it quicklybecame clear that there was
never any record of him actuallyappearing on the FBI's Most

(58:58):
Wanted list.
Eventually, abagnale admittedon his own website that his
previous claims on the matterhad been untrue, and that is a
sign of things to come.
Dreamworks was careful tomarket the film as inspired by a
true story in an effort toavoid the kind of controversy

(59:20):
other recent films had faced,including A Beautiful Mind in
2001 and the Hurricane in 1999,which both took significant
liberties in their adaptationsof the real events.
Catch Me If you Can was releasedon December 25, 2002, earning
just over $30 million during itsopening weekend, finishing

(59:43):
second behind the Lord of theRings, the Two Towers.
The film went on to gross$164.6 million in North America
and $187.5 millioninternationally, for a worldwide
total of $352.1 million,earning back its $52 million

(01:00:05):
budget more than seven timesover.
Catch Me If you Can ended theyear as the 11th highest
grossing film of 2002, justbehind Minority Report, another
Spielberg film, which was ranked10th.
With help from a strongperformance by Leonardo DiCaprio

(01:00:46):
as real-life wonderkid conartist Frank Abagnale, steven
Spielberg crafts a film that'sstylish, breezily Awards one for
Christopher Walken in the BestSupporting Actor category and
another for John Williams forBest Original Score, which I
failed to mention at thebeginning, but the score of this
film was done by John Williams,who also did the score for Jaws
, et, close, encounters of theThird Kind, you name it

(01:01:09):
basically every movie from yourchildhood John Williams did the
score for and nothing for leo,because the academy hates him
catch me if you can.
Also earned four baftanominations, including best
adapted screenplay and a win forbest actor in a supporting role
for christopher walken.
Walken also won outstandingPerformance by a Male Actor in a

(01:01:34):
Supporting Role at the SAGAwards, while DiCaprio received
the film's only Golden Globenomination for Best Actor in a
Motion Picture Drama, butunfortunately lost out to Jack
Nicholson for his portrayal asthe cantankerous old geezer in
About Schmidt.
Spielberg and Hanks workedtogether three more times

(01:01:55):
throughout the years,collaborating on 2004's the
Terminal, which was also writtenby Jeff Nathanson, as well as
Bridge of Spies in 2015 and thePost in 2017.
I have not seen Bridge of Spiesor the Post.

Ashley (01:02:10):
Bridge of Spies is on our list.
I believe I used to have aBridge of.

Remi (01:02:12):
Spies coffee mug.
That Bridge of Spies is on ourlist.
I believe I used to have aBridge of Spies coffee mug that
was given to me by a studio, andthat's about as much as I know
about the movie.
A musical adaptation of CatchMe If you Can, premiered at the
Fifth Avenue Theater in SeattleWashington in July 2009, and
officially opened on Broadway atthe Neil Simon Theater on April

(01:02:32):
10, and officially opened onBroadway at the Neil Simon
Theatre on April 10, 2011.

Verdict (01:02:44):
Live in living color let me take you for a ride.
Yes, I'm live in living colorcolor, so sit back and let me be
your TV guy.

Remi (01:03:04):
The musical was nominated for four Tony Awards that same
year, including Best Musical,along with a win for Norbert Leo
Butz for Best Performance by aLeading Actor in a Musical, and
that was Steven Spielberg's.
Catch Me If you Can.

Ashley (01:03:24):
What a whirlwind and actually a surprisingly smooth
pre and post-production story.

Remi (01:03:31):
Yeah, Spielberg doesn't fuck around.
He is not one to have a lot ofdrama behind his productions
Besides Jaws, of course, I thinkthat's one of the only ones and
he genuinely seems like a gooddude with good intentions behind
the films that he's making.
I do not think Spielberg isnefarious in any way he's making

(01:03:57):
.

Ashley (01:03:57):
I do not think Spielberg is nefarious in any way.
Well, speaking of someone whois not nefarious, shall we talk
about the real Frank Abagnale Jr.

Remi (01:04:03):
Yes, I am very, very anxious to find out what, if any
of this man's tall tales areactually true.

Verdict (01:04:12):
You don't know how to tell the truth yet.
Frank William Abagnale Jr was asensation by early 1981.

Ashley (01:04:40):
The 31-year-old was a highly sought-out crime
prevention speaker in thebanking chamber, of commerce and
college circuits.
He traveled around the countrylecturing over 200 times a year
and drew massive crowds.
He charged over $2,000 for someevents, which is over $8,000
adjusted for inflation.

(01:05:01):
His recently publishedautobiography, catch Me, if you
Can, rapidly gained steam onbestsellers lists and there was
even a movie in the worksstarring Dustin Hoffman.
Sellers lists, and there waseven a movie in the works
starring Dustin Hoffman.
He was even featured on theTonight Show, not once, not
twice, but five times, and forgood reason.
He had a remarkable tale totell, one that supposedly netted

(01:05:25):
his consulting company upwardsof $35 million per year.
Frank ran away from home when hewas 16 years old and embarked
on a life of deception.
He impersonated a Pan AmericanAirlines pilot, worked as a
chief resident pediatrician atCobb County General Hospital,
passed the Louisiana bar examand worked at the Baton Rouge

(01:05:49):
Attorney General's office andtaught college courses at
Brigham Young University Allthese achievements by the time
he was 21 years old and withoutany schooling or real
credentials.
He also cashed over $2.5million in counterfeit checks
across 26 countries before hewas finally apprehended by the

(01:06:11):
FBI after a years-longcat-and-mouse chase.
Another popular exploitinvolved being the youngest
person to ever escape from theAtlanta federal penitentiary.

Frank Abagnale Jr (01:06:23):
During my stay in the federal prison
system, I escaped three times.
On one particular occasion, Iimpersonated a prison inspector
and walked out the front door ofthe prison.
On one particular occasion Iimpersonated a prison inspector
and walked out the front door ofthe institution, but I
eventually served my time.

Ashley (01:06:45):
Frank's other crowd-pleasing stories included
traveling across Europe witheight aspiring flight attendants
and evading federal authoritiesby escaping through an airline
toilet hatch after he wasextradited.
He also liked to sprinkle a bitof sexuality into his speeches
from time to time to really getthe crowd going.

Frank Abagnale Jr. (01:07:00):
Always the typical questions at the pool.
So, doc, where'd you go tomedical school?
Columbia University in New York?
Where'd you serve yourinternship?
Harvard Children's Hospital outin LA Once in a while, when the
guys would come by hey Paul,hey doc, look at my leg.
I don't know what I did to it.
Look at this, paul, I can'texamine your leg.
You need to go to your doctorand have him look at that.
When the girls came by, Ialways gave them a thorough

(01:07:22):
examination.
I was young but not stupid.

Remi (01:07:29):
I just want to point out that this is a man pretending to
be a doctor who is examiningwomen.

Ashley (01:07:37):
And when he gave that talk, it was in 2017, so this
man was well into his 60s andstill making jokes of him
essentially sexually assaultingwomen and getting a rousing
laugh from audiences women andgetting a rousing laugh from

(01:07:57):
audiences.
But despite his criminal past,frank prided himself on two
things.
First, he claimed hiswrongdoings were victimless,
since he never targetedindividuals or small businesses
and had since repaid everythinghe stole.
Second, he now committedhimself to a life of helping
others detect and avoid beingcrime victims, a mission he
started after he was approachedby the FBI in 1975 and offered

(01:08:23):
early parole in exchange forgenerating crime prevention
materials, policies and seminars.
There was just one smallproblem Nobody knew the real
Frank Abagnale and nearlyeverything that came out of his
mouth was a lie.

Remi (01:08:45):
I also just feel like I need to point out that when he
says victimless crimes, he isreferring to the businesses that
he worked for, none of theairline passengers or patients.

Ashley (01:09:00):
Much, much, much later in his life.
He does say that he had quoteunquote victims and it was the
people he deceived that foundout about these and were
disappointed or hurt about hisdeception.
But never does he mention anyof these like quote unquote
patients he supposedly treatedor anything like that.

(01:09:23):
It's just the people that knewhim and found out he wasn't
really a doctor and they werelike upset with him.
And those are who he nowconceptualizes as victims, but
not in that word.

Remi (01:09:35):
So not like any patients he misdiagnosed, or any clients
that he may have given the wrongadvice to, or even any
passengers that happened to beon the plane when he was in the
jump seat and something couldhave happened to the pilot.

Ashley (01:09:49):
You know.
No, he doesn't consider any ofthose people victims, and there
might be a reason why becausethey don't exist.
But more on that soon.
Frank Abagnale Jr was born inthe Bronx, New York, on April
17th 1948.
His parents, Frank Sr andPaulette, purchaseda home in

(01:10:11):
Bronxville right before he wasborn and sold it when their
marriage started to deterioratewhen Frank was 12.
Both parents remarried shortlyafter their divorce was
finalized in January 1964.
It was unclear when Frank'sproclivity for criminal behavior
began, but the 16-year-old hadalready dropped out of school

(01:10:32):
and been accused of theft whenhe enlisted in the Navy a few
days before Christmas 1964.
His military career wasshort-lived as he was discharged
two months later.
Within the month he wasarrested for forgery and
vagrancy related to passingsmall checks at several local
businesses.

(01:10:53):
To avoid prosecution, hedecided to flee to California.
To fund his transcontinentalroad trip, Frank stole a car, a
bright yellow Mustang, that hebrazenly drove around town for
the next few days.
He cashed a few more checks atseveral local businesses and was

(01:11:15):
gone by the time.
Police went searching for himon January 4th 1965.

Remi (01:11:20):
I feel like a yellow Mustang is possibly the worst
car you could be driving ifyou're trying to keep a low
profile.

Ashley (01:11:30):
Well, if you think that, imagine what the hotel
employees thought when, twoweeks later, he drove that
yellow mustang, now bedazzledwith the word bandit and an
image of a masked man with apistol on the side what he
pulled that car into a motel ineureureka, California.

(01:11:51):
He then tried to open achecking account, but bank
administrators suspected thecheck he gave them was
fraudulent and alerted localauthorities.
Police quickly tracked him tothe motel and alerted the

(01:12:12):
nearest FBI officer afterdiscovering that he claimed to
be a US Border Patrol agent tosecure a federal discount on the
already cheap motel room.
He was arrested and chargedwith impersonating a federal
employee and interstatetransportation of a stolen car
on June 21, 1965.

(01:12:35):
Frank's father posted his bailand agreed to take custody of
the teen on July 2.
The Abagnales flew back to NewYork together, which was likely
the first time Frank Jr set footon an airplane.
He must have been infatuatedwith air travel, since he was
wearing a pilot uniform when hewas arrested for forgery on July

(01:12:58):
15th.
Frank admitted to his state andfederal crimes and was
sentenced to three years forforgery a week later.
He was paroled from Great MeadowCorrectional Institution on May
8th 1967.
Despite still having a pendingfederal case, he was back to
writing fraudulent checks withinthe week and fled to

(01:13:21):
Massachusetts.
He was again arrested forlarceny and auto theft on June
20, 1967, this time nearBoston's Logan Airport.
This location is significant,as he would later tell a wild
tale involving him posing as asecurity guard in front of a

(01:13:41):
fake safety security box he setup where unsuspecting businesses
dropped their daily earnings.
Frank then claimed he brazenlyasked two state troopers for
help carrying the heavy safe tohis car.
After his arrest in Boston, hespent little over a year in jail
and was paroled again onDecember 24, 1968.

(01:14:04):
He was back to hischeck-writing ways three days
later.
Three days later, he was neverprosecuted for impersonating an
officer or driving a car acrossstate lines, since the federal
government declined to pursuethe case under the wrongful
impression that he was stillunder strict supervision in New

(01:14:24):
York, which highlights the lackof communication between federal
and state agencies.
21-year-old Frank was a free manfor the first time in nearly
four years.
And what did he do with hisnewfound freedom?
Well, he dusted off his pilot'suniform and passed himself off
as a co-pilot for TransworldAirlines, which I'm going to

(01:14:48):
refer to as TWA from here on out.
He did this to secure a jumpseat on a Delta Airlines flight
to Miami on New Year's Day 1968,which is basically like an open
seat for pilots where they canjust like, come on and travel
for free.
Even though there was a spareseat in the cockpit, frank made

(01:15:11):
his way to an empty seat in theback of the plane, most likely
to avoid anyone who might askhim some tough questions.
For example what type of planedo you fly?

Now.
So tell me, young man, whattype of equipment are you on?
Now, airline people have a lotof jargon for things and one of
them is they never call a planea plane or an aircraft.
They call it equipment.
And what type of equipmentyou're on meant what type of
plane do you fly?
Back then, a DC-8, a 707.
Of course I didn't know thatand I thought what type of
equipment?
The only equipment I'm on isthis stool.

(01:15:46):
They must mean what type ofequipment is on the planes I fly
.
So I thought well, they've gotthe wings and they've got the
engine.
They always had a sticker onthe engine who manufactured the
engine?
So I said, yes, generalElectric.
All three pilots kind of juststopped eating and leaned over.
The captain said oh really,what do you fly?
A washing machine.
So I knew I'd say the wrongthing.

Remi (01:16:08):
Out the door I went.
The way he talks is sort oflike a stand-up comedian doing a
routine.

Ashley (01:16:17):
I watched so many different talks that this man
gave, telling you he is a veryengaging speaker, but it has a

(01:16:40):
very different tone to it whenyou realize that everything he
is saying is fake and it is ajust rehearsed speech.
His speeches are all the samespeech.

Remi (01:16:55):
His speeches are all the same.
Well, I was going to say theway he is saying.
It is a lot like someone who istelling a story at a party or
something like that, but he isin a situation where no one can
ask follow-up questions to him.

Ashley (01:17:06):
During that flight to Miami on New Year's Day 1968,
Frank joined a group of flightattendants in the galley and
turned on the charm.
He invited them all to dinner,but everyone declined, since it
was after midnight by the timethe plane landed.
He was particularly persistentwith young Paula Parks, who

(01:17:28):
accepted the offer, not wantingto be rude but dragged her
attendant roommate along withher.
Accepted the offer, not wantingto be rude, but dragged her
attendant roommate along withher.
The trio bought some wienersfrom a hot dog stand and
strolled the streets while Frankentertained them with his wild
stories.
Paula woke up the next morningto an urgent call from the front
desk.
Waiting for her were two dozenroses, a five-pound box of

(01:17:52):
chocolates and a card from Frankasking her out to lunch.

Remi (01:17:57):
Five pounds is absurd.

Ashley (01:18:00):
She again agreed to go with her friend, since they had
a few hours to spare beforetheir return flight to New
Orleans, where the women werebased.
Paula reluctantly gave Frankher number but didn't make more
specific plans to meet againsoon.
So imagine her surprise when hewas waiting for her.
When she landed, in the sameflashy convertible he drove

(01:18:23):
around in Miami.
He claimed he had a few daysoff, but since she didn't, the
two went their separate ways,unbeknownst to Pam, frank likely
made up some sort of story toget his hands on her work
schedule, since he always seemedto just turn up whenever she
landed for her next severalflights, including when she went

(01:18:45):
back to NOLA a few weeks aftertheir first meeting.
This time Paula had a few daysoff and planned to visit her
parents in Baton Rouge.
She accepted Frank'stransportation offer as she
thought the road trip would be agood opportunity to make it
clear that there wasn't going tobe any sort of romantic
relationship between them.

(01:19:05):
This time he seemed to take thehint.
Just as he had with the flightattendants, frank bombarded
Paula's parents with stories ofhis life as a TWA pilot, which
he said was a temporary giguntil he could find a job
working with kids, where hecould utilize his degree in
social work from CornellUniversity.

(01:19:26):
Paula's parents, john andCharlotte Parks, adored Frank
and told him to not be astranger once the evening came
to a close.
Days later, paula got a callfrom her mom saying the co-pilot
was going to be staying withthem for a bit.
Turns out, frank turned up ontheir doorstep shortly after

(01:19:47):
Paula left and asked to takeCharlotte up on her offer for
fishing lessons.
The lessons turned to drinks,drinks turned to dinner, and
dinner ended with an offer tostay the night, and then he just
didn't leave.
Being the good southernChristian family they were, the
Parks wanted to help therecently furloughed pilot pursue

(01:20:08):
a career that he actuallywanted.
Over the next few weeks.
They gave him a set of keys,let him help himself to whatever
food they had in their fridgeand introduced him to members of
their community.

Remi (01:20:21):
This guy is a homeless person crashing on their couch,
basically.

Ashley (01:20:28):
Oh no, he was crashing in Paula's childhood bedroom.

Remi (01:20:32):
Ah, even better.

Ashley (01:20:34):
Well, frank did repay them by taking them out to fancy
dinners and often bought homefresh flowers for Charlotte.
Paula expressed her doubts andapprehensions about the
mysterious visitor.
But they fell onto fears.
And it wasn't just her parentswho adored Frank either.
He grew close to Paula's18-year-old brother, john, and

(01:20:55):
even started dating her cousin.
One person the Parks introducedFrank to was Reverend Underwood
, who started reaching out tocommunity contacts to help Frank
secure a job befitting of hisCornell degree.
A few days after he interviewedat Louisiana State University,
the Reverend got a call sayingthat although Frank was an

(01:21:18):
entertaining and smooth talker,it was abundantly clear that he
didn't have the knowledge orskills that he should have if he
actually had a degree in socialwork, psychology or really
anything involving children.
The Reverend didn't have to domuch digging to learn Frank

(01:21:39):
hadn't attended Cornell at all.
His suspicions about Frank werefurther fueled by the fact that
, since he arrived in BatonRouge, a series of bad checks
had been passed around to somesmall family businesses,
including one owned by thefather of John Park's best
friend, another youth whodeveloped a friendship with

(01:22:00):
Frank.
Some of the checks actuallycame from the Parks' own
checkbook.
Frank Underwood's next call wasto the TWA hub in New Orleans.
They knew exactly who Frank was, but not because he was an
employee.
He actually matched thedescription of a man who had
been singing, hanging AroundAirports in a pilot's uniform

(01:22:22):
for the past six weeks trying tocash fraudulent paychecks.
The Reverend immediately calledthe police and braced himself
to inform the Parks of thebetrayal.
The man they had grown so fondof had been stealing money from
all three family members,including the 18-year-old, for

(01:22:45):
weeks.
So all those dinners he tookthem on, all those flowers he
brought home to Charlotte, hepaid for them with funds he
stole from them.
A few days after his arrest, onFebruary 14th 1969, franks moved
out of the Parkses and used astolen check to pay the deposit

(01:23:05):
for a nice new apartment.
He initially tried to keep uphis pilot's ruse when he was
arrested, but admitted to hisdeception after he was
confronted with the informationthe police already had from TWA.
He was charged with forgery andtheft.
As soon as the police calledWestchester, new York, and

(01:23:26):
learned all about his criminalrecord, since he didn't yet know
the Parks were aware of histransgressions, he had the
audacity to call them and askfor money for a bail and an
attorney.
Four days later he admitted tohaving stolen checks but claimed
all the ones he cashed weredone with the Parks' permission.

(01:23:46):
The Baton Rouge DistrictAttorney's Office the same
agency he later claimed heworked for for about a year
added another charge ofpossession of stolen checks.
So we're kind of seeing a themehere he's making up these lies
later in life, but actuallylinking them to events in his

(01:24:07):
life getting arrested in Boston,getting arrested in Baton Rouge
and claiming he's working forthese places.

Remi (01:24:15):
Yeah, but the lies he's making up make him sound cool.
This guy fucking sucks ateverything he's doing and his
lies are really really easilydisprovable.

Ashley (01:24:28):
Oh for sure, and we'll get to that.
It's just interesting to methat he is sprinkling in his
connection with these agencies.
There's like a very, very, veryteeny sand grain of truth in
there, but he's just changingthe narrative in a way that
makes him look like a hero andnot like just a scummy criminal

(01:24:49):
that he actually is Desperate toavoid prison.
Frank reached out to his onlyally, reverend Underwood.
He successfully appealed to theman's pastoral ways by claiming
he loved the parks, never meantto hurt them, wanted to change
and desperately needed treatment.

(01:25:09):
The Reverend even contactedFrank's parents and asked them
to write letters of support fortheir son.
Frank pled guilty to forgery andtheft in June 1969.
Although he was facing a10-year prison sentence,
reverend Underwood's advocacyand maybe Frank's own statement
about how remorseful he felt forhis crimes was enough to escape

(01:25:32):
the slammer.
On June 17, 1969, he wassentenced to 12 years of
probation in order to payrestitution and seek psychiatric
treatment.
He expressed his gratitude byimmediately fleeing the country
and never repaying back a singledime he stole from anyone in

(01:25:53):
Baton Rouge.

Remi (01:25:54):
Yeah, that checks out.

Ashley (01:25:56):
Frank showed up in Sweden in mid-August 1969.
After initially landing inFrance, passing off a few hot
checks and stealing a car, hetargeted another kind couple who
let the grifter stay with themfor about a week Before leaving.
He gave his new friends a checkin exchange for cash, but asked

(01:26:18):
them to wait a few days beforethey deposited it to allow time
for his funds to be transferredover the check bounced.
On August 22nd he showed up ata small car repair shop in his
pilot's uniform, in a damagedFiat with two other Swedes he
recently befriended.
The owner of the shop.

(01:26:38):
Jan Hillman agreed to loanFrank a car.
While the Fiat was beingprepared.
He even let Frank test drive itfor a few days before the deal
was finalized.
Come Monday afternoon Hillmanreceived a call from one of
Frank's traveling companions whowarned the shop owner that
Frank wasn't returning.

(01:26:58):
Hillman quickly alerted thepolice, but Frank and the
vehicle were already on a ferryto Denmark.
He was arrested in France twoweeks later.
There was no months-longevasion of European authorities
or millions of dollars spent incounterfeit checks.
In actuality, he pled guilty totheft and swindling and was

(01:27:21):
sentenced to four months inprison on October 3, 1969.
He spent three months in aFrench prison before he was
extradited to Sweden.
In his autobiography he claimedthe conditions at the facility
were so dire that he lost 90pounds, but witnesses who
testified against him in Swedennoticed no change in his

(01:27:45):
physical appearance.

Remi (01:27:47):
That's a lot of weight for someone to drop A lot of weight
for someone to drop.

Ashley (01:27:51):
It's something like he claimed he lost 90 pounds in
four months and was like 109pounds by the time he was
extradited In all actuality ifthat was the case, he would have
been on death's door, literallydying.

Remi (01:28:10):
Yeah, they would have been barely feeding him if he
dropped that much weight.

Ashley (01:28:13):
He probably would have needed to be medically force fed
.
Frank was convicted of grossfraud by forgery on March 26,
1970 and sentenced to two monthsin prison.
He was also ordered to payrestitution and would be
deported and banned fromentering Sweden for eight years.

(01:28:33):
He tried to fight thedeportation, but his appeal was
denied in May 1970 due to hisrecidivism risk and lack of ties
to the country.
This was nothing more than asimple deportation.
He wasn't extradited back tothe United States since there
was no extradition warrant outfor him.

(01:28:55):
He simply flew back to New Yorkand walked off the plane.
There were no agents he had toavoid by escaping out of toilet,
something he repeated for yearsuntil aeronautical engineers
proved it was impossible.
After seeing the scene depictedin the movie.

Remi (01:29:14):
That was the first thing I thought was wait, you can just
unscrew a toilet seat in anaircraft.

Ashley (01:29:22):
Also, the deportation is at odds with other claims Frank
made throughout the years, suchas that there were a dozen
European nations fighting to gettheir hands on him, that he
eluded Interpol and that he wasput on the non-existent master

(01:29:43):
thief list, which did not existand has never existed.
This is another claim that headmitted that he fabricated.

Remi (01:29:52):
So this was like the FBI's most wanted list, only
specifically for thieves.

Ashley (01:29:58):
Yeah, he claimed that he was the youngest on the FBI's
most wanted list.
That's not something he'sredacted.
He also claimed that there wasthis quote unquote master thief
list that he was on After.
The FBI was like we never had amaster thief list.
He acknowledged that that wassomething that was fabricated.

Remi (01:30:19):
So much of this stuff can be easily disproven.

Ashley (01:30:24):
We will get there.
Upon returning to the States,Frank embarked on a short-lived
scam involving cashingfraudulent Pan Am paychecks.

Remi (01:30:32):
embarked on a short-lived scam involving cashing
fraudulent Pan Am paychecks.
Did this have anything to dowith the?

Ashley (01:30:40):
$300 advance you could get from hotels.
That was mentioned in the film.
In this scheme he's just likefaking paychecks.
He's taking paychecks, makingthem look like Pan Am paychecks
by kind of tweaking things andtrying to cash them, and was
somehow able to do itconvincingly.
So what he had talked aboutwith the getting the advances is
how he had described it laterin his life.

(01:31:01):
Airlines would kind of give youlike a per diem and you would
pay for something with your ownmoney and be able to reimburse
it and get paid back.
So he would pay money with afraudulent check, take it to Pan
Am and get reimbursed for whathe paid, and not just Pan Am any
airline.
I don't know if that's true ornot.

(01:31:23):
That's what he has claimed hedid in his talks.

Remi (01:31:28):
So how much money was he supposedly getting from the
airlines during this time?

Ashley (01:31:35):
He claimed he cashed $2.5 million, so that would be
an exorbitant amount.
Now, in actuality, for aboutthree months in 1970, frank
cashed 10 fraudulent Pan Ampaychecks in North Carolina,
texas, california and Utah.

(01:31:55):
In total he netted about$11,200, which is adjusted for
inflation today.
Since these checks involved anairline, because he was making
them out to look like they werepaychecks given to him from Pan
Am, them out to look like theywere paychecks given to him from

(01:32:16):
Pan Am, the crimes were underfederal jurisdiction.
This is likely.
When Agent Shea, a primaryinspiration behind Tom Hanks'
character, learned about him,frank had another ruse going on.
At this time, in the summer andfall of 1970, he was seen at
several college campuses inArizona posing as a Pan Am pilot
, conducting interviews for aflight crew.

(01:32:39):
Unlike how he depicted thisscheme throughout his life and
how it's described in the film,his recruiting efforts were shut
down and never went pasttalking to a dozen potentially
interested female co-eds.
Disturbingly, though, he didperform physical exams on some
of the women under the ruse thatthey were medically necessary

(01:33:02):
to qualify.
Frank was arrested in a motel inMarietta, georgia, on November
2, 1970, the same city he laterclaimed to be a pediatric chief
resident.
Frank did manage to escape fromjail while awaiting trial in
Atlanta in early February 1970,but this escape was not from the

(01:33:25):
highly secured AtlantaPenitentiary.
In reality.
He just walked out of countyjail while deputies were
processing paperwork in thebooking area.
He was swiftly apprehended andextradited back to Georgia.
One last quick word here aboutAgent Shea.
While he was no doubt involvedin Frank's arrest around this

(01:33:50):
point he doesn't appear to havehad any more involvement with
him, except for a chance run-inwhile Frank was giving a talk at
a convention for FBI retireesin Kansas City in the 1980s.

Remi (01:34:05):
Oh, so they didn't meet up every year at Christmas?

Ashley (01:34:10):
Yeah, there was no decades-long relationship in
which Frank viewed Shay as afather figure, but Shay died
long before Frank truly startedto exaggerate the nature of
their relationship.
This is how Frank described itduring a Google talk in 2017.

My supervisor at the FBI.
After I came out of prison Ianswered directly to him.
He and I were friends for 30years until his death.
I've written five books oncrime.
The last book I wrote Stealingyour Life.
I dedicated that book to himand our 30-year relationship.

Remi (01:34:47):
I will say I had assumed that Tom Hanks's character was
an amalgamation of several FBIagents who were attempting to
get Frank at this time.

Ashley (01:35:01):
You're very clever because he is an amalgamation of
two people.
The second we haven't beenintroduced to yet, but the first
is this FBI agent Frank pledguilty to escape and check fraud
on April 29, 1971.
This time he was sentenced to 10years in prison and was sent to

(01:35:22):
a federal penitentiary inPetersburg, virginia, but since
there was no mandatory minimumimposed, he served about two
years and then transferred hisparole to Houston, texas, where
he was supervised by JimBlackmoon, the other muse for
Tom Hanks' character in the film.
Frank worked a few odd jobs atfast food restaurants and

(01:35:46):
supermarkets before he set hissights on Camp Madison, a
popular summer camp for kids inthe Houston area.
The proprietor of the camp wasimpressed by the furloughed
Delta Airlines pilot and offeredhim a summer job running
errands and shuttling the kidsthat only attended during the
day program.
Most of the teenage campcounselors were impressed by

(01:36:12):
Frank, since he took them out tonightclubs and always paid for
everything.
But there was one young womanwho wasn't impressed by his
flirtatious ways.
As luck would have it, her dadwas a real Delta Airlines pilot
and looked into the identity ofFrank Abagnale the identity of

(01:36:37):
Frank Abagnale.

Remi (01:36:37):
Yeah, I feel like anyone who heard this guy talking in
any situation that was actuallyin the field that he was
pretending to be in, or knewsomeone who was, would instantly
be able to call bullshit onthis.
He's not very good at this.

Ashley (01:36:48):
I know, but how many airline pilots do you know?
It's really bad luck for Frankthat one of the camp counselors
at this random children's summercamp actually had a dad who was
a pilot.

Remi (01:37:01):
Touche.

Ashley (01:37:02):
And well, it wasn't long before his ruse was revealed.
Before that happened, though,frank took advantage of the
skills of a young graphic artist.
He told the youth he waspresident of Delta's Pilots Club
and wanted to improve thesecurity of the ID cards, but he
needed to test out some of hisideas first.

(01:37:23):
The teenager made someimpressive looking mock-ups for
Frank to take back to hissuperiors.
Frank took these cards, got aprofessional photo taken, merged
the two and then just left.
The camp coordinator linkedFrank to some missing valuables
as soon as he got word from thecounselor's pilot father, who

(01:37:45):
told him that Frank was not whohe claimed to be.
Frank was arrested by the endof August but was only ordered
to pay restitution.
Frank was arrested by the endof August, but was only ordered
to pay restitution Not longafter.
Frank called his parole officerand told him he secured a job at
a children's home.
Parole officer Blackmoon hadprior experience at this same

(01:38:07):
exact agency and knew that thework his supervisee claimed to
be doing required an advanceddegree that Frank didn't have.
He showed up at the orphanageand found Frank in an office
decorated with photos of him ina pilot's uniform, next to a
framed phony master's degree.
This is really bad.

(01:38:28):
He tried to get a job at anorphanage, counseling and
adopting out children.
How fucked up is that.
He instructed Frank to resignimmediately but instead of
violating the habitual offender,he gave him yet another chance
at redemption.
Frank briefly moved intoBlackburn's garage and got a job

(01:38:53):
at a security company.
So I think this depiction ofhis parole officer, like taking
him under his wing and lettinghim move in and giving him a
second chance, is what'sreflected in Tom Hanks'
character of the FBI agent, likecalling him up every Christmas
and you know things like that.

(01:39:15):
Around September 1975, frank washired by Aetna Life and
Casualty and sent to a trainingprogram in Hartford, connecticut
, to learn the basic skillsneeded to handle insurance
claims.
While there he cast four checksat Aetna's headquarters and was
promptly fired.

(01:39:35):
They eventually filed a civilsuit that dragged on for years.
Undeterred by unemployment, heregistered his company Frank W
Abagnale Associates a few monthslater.
So now we are about to embarkon the second saga of Frank
Abagnale's life.

(01:39:56):
Do you have any comments?
Before we move on to that, whatdo you think about him so far?

Remi (01:40:02):
I mean he sucks in comparison to the film version,
obviously, but like how long didhe even get away with any of
these crimes?
It seems like anything thatFrank tried, he was found out
almost immediately.

Ashley (01:40:18):
Yeah, that's what's crazy.
Through everything from when hewas 16 to now I guess he's
about 28 years old Every conhe's committed he's been caught
within two weeks to four monthsbut somehow is escaping any sort
of real punishment for hiscrimes.

(01:40:40):
I mean, at this point he's beenin jail one, two, three, like
six, seven times, including instate jails, federal jails,
international jails, but all ofhis sentences have just been
really short and he just picksup and leaves.
In early 1976, frank startedtelling some of his stories at

(01:41:00):
venues in Texas, primarily forsmall businesses and vocational
training programs for highschool students.
His anti-crime seminars emergedaround April.
By the end of the year heclaimed he already gave lectures
for Harvard Law School, theUnited States Treasury
Department, los Angeles PoliceDepartment, chase, manhattan

(01:41:23):
Bank, exxon Oil and evenScotland Yard.
He married Kelly Welbs inNovember, a relationship he kept
secret for years to follow.
It's unclear where the couplemet.
Most often Frank claimed theycrossed paths while he was
working for the FBI undercoverat a Houston orphanage.

(01:41:45):
No doubt the agency, his paroleofficer, made him quit.
But at other times he said theymet at a grocery store.
Frank's first big public talkwas for a Chamber of Commerce
annual banquet in January 1977.
It was a huge hit.
He was rebooked within themonth.

(01:42:06):
In the lead up to his initialappearance, a reporter from the
Galveston Daily News researchedsome of his impersonation claims
, none of which could beverified.
Abridged versions of thearticle appeared in papers
throughout Texas but wentlargely unnoticed.
Frank continued to primarilyspeak at smaller gatherings

(01:42:29):
until he made his televisiondebut on a spring episode of To
Tell the Truth.
For those of you who have neverseen the game show, it involves
four celebrity panelists taskedwith finding the real person
among a set of two otherimposters.
For this episode, the supposedtruth teller was none other than

(01:42:53):
Frank Abagnale Jr, dressed, ofcourse, in a pilot's uniform.

Announcer (01:42:59):
I, frank William Abagnale, am known as the
world's greatest imposter, andno wonder.
In the course of my nefariouscareer, I've piled myself off as
a doctor, lawyer, collegeinstructor, stockbroker and
airline pilot.
To become an airline pilot, Imerely bought a plastic ID card

(01:43:21):
for $5, affixed an airline logofrom a model plane hobby kit and
, in no time at all, wasco-pilot for a major airline.
As a bogus lawyer, I actuallyworked on a state attorney
general's staff For six years.
I also cashed over $2,500,000in bad checks in 26 countries.

(01:43:45):
Ultimately, I was sentenced to72 years in prison.
I served one year in France,one year in Sweden.
I then served four years in afederal prison in this country.
Paroled, I now devote my lifeto the prevention and detection
of crime.
Signed Frank William Abagnale.

Ashley (01:44:09):
Frank walked away with $500 that night after fooling
all four judges and becoming anovernight sensation.
Who?

Remi (01:44:19):
did they pick?
They picked the other guydressed in a prison jumpsuit.

Ashley (01:44:23):
I'm not sure who they all picked.
I think it was kind of splitbetween the other two.
But basically, how the showworked is you got money for each
person you fooled.
How the show worked is you gotmoney for each person you fooled
.
And if you fooled all four, yougot a bonus.
And no one picked him as thereal frank abagnale.

Remi (01:44:39):
I find that astonishing, having seen the other two
contestants in this clip whilemedia coverage for frank
increased tenfold between 1970and 1978.

Ashley (01:44:53):
His speaking engagement started crisscrossing the United
States and he was interviewedby Johnny Carson on the Tonight
Show three times that year.
Here's a clip of him beinginterviewed by America's beloved
talk show host.
I supervise seven interns onthe midnight to eight shift.

Catch Me If You Can Clip (01:45:12):
Have you had any medical training.

Frank Abagnale Jr (01:45:19):
No medical training and I don't like the
sight of blood.
And when I was, when I would becalled to the emergency room,
I'd walk in.
There'd be two or three internsthere and I'd be called down
and I'd walk in and I'd saywhat's the problem?
And they'd say, doctor, we havea severe in cardio here with a.
I didn't know if the guy brokehis leg, had a heart attack.
So I would say well, dr Carter,what do you think?
Well, doctor, I would like toadminister 30 cc's of this.
Dr John, I concur, jane, Iconcur, gentlemen, have at it

(01:45:41):
and out, I would go.
Well, I became one of the mostrespected residents because I
was the only one that everallowed them to do anything
without any.

Remi (01:45:52):
I cannot believe.
The I concur thing is probablyone of the few things that's
gonna end up being true in thisstory.

Ashley (01:46:02):
With all this publicity, frank needed a booking agent.
He met college senior MarkZinder at a TED Talk-like
conference in Washington DC inAugust 1978.
Mark approached Frank andoffered to help him break into
an untapped market the collegecircuit.
He helped Frank book lecturesacross college campuses for the

(01:46:25):
rest of the year and introducedhim to New Line Presentations, a
management company affiliatedwith Warner Brothers.
In between his college chores,frank continued giving lectures
for large financial institutionsbut started to hit a little
more resistance.
In October and December 1978,reporters from the San Francisco

(01:46:48):
Chronicle and the DailyOklahoman wrote lengthy exposés
debunking Frank's claims one byone.
In each article the reporterspoke to people and employees
from each agency.
Frank claimed to have beenaffiliated with Pan Am, byu, the

(01:47:09):
Baton Rouge Attorney'sGeneral's Office and Cobb County
General Hospital.
Each agency offered conclusiveevidence that he wasn't employed
there under the aliases he gaveand could not have pulled off
his hoaxes.
Even his stories about his timein the Atlanta Penitentiary
were rebuffed.
Many of the agencies thereporters spoke to said they

(01:47:33):
tried to contact the media afterFrank started showing up on
Johnny Carson's Tonight, but noone seemed interested in setting
the record straight.
Frank responded to theseexposés by canceling his gigs,
avoiding the area and claimingthe people involved in his ruses
didn't want to report or own upto them because they were

(01:47:54):
embarrassed and didn't want badpublicity.
Although his lies were fullyexposed, the negative publicity
didn't really leave the areaswhere the articles were
published.
So Frank continued his busyspeaking schedule and made more
appearances on the Tonight Show,the Phil Donahue Show, the Mike

(01:48:14):
Douglas Show and Catch-21.
Mark officially became Frank'sbooking agent after he started
working at New LinePresentations in the summer of
1979.
He actually secured a bookmovie deal and set to work
writing his autobiography withthe help of Stan Redding, a
two-time Pulitzer Prize nomineeand award-winning journalist

(01:48:39):
with the Houston Chronicle.
A few months before the bookwas set to hit the stands, frank
approached Mark with aproposition.
He didn't like that.
The talent agency was taking35% of his speaking fee and
offered Mark a lucrative dealLeave the company and work for
him in exchange for a basesalary and 20% per booking.

(01:49:01):
Mark accepted.
The pair moved to Houston toset up shop.
By this point Mark wascompletely unaware that Frank
was a married man, since heboasted about his sexual
conquests and portrayed himselfas a bachelor whenever they were
on the road.
Shortly after moving to Houston,frank introduced Mark to Kelly

(01:49:24):
Welves, his wife, secretary andobvious financial decision maker
.
Frank initially tried to backout of the salary and commission
rate the two previously agreedupon but Mark held his ground
and negotiated a $5,000 bonus ifhe booked Frank 50 times within

(01:49:44):
the year.
The only thing he didn't getwas exclusive booking rights,
meaning other agents couldcontact Frank with gigs.
Kelly drew up the contract.
Business was booming.
Immediately after Catch Me Ifyou Can was released in
September 1980.
The autobiography contained allthe usual tales, but with more

(01:50:05):
details about his sexualexploits.
There was also a disclaimerabout all the names, dates and
places being changed.
This was likely added inresponse to the journalist who
attempted to debunk his claims.
Now it would be nearlyimpossible for new skeptics to

(01:50:27):
do the same.
Mark approached Frank about hisbonus check after the 53rd
booking, but Frank refused topay, saying not all the bookings
counted because they weren't athis premium rate of $3,400.
Again, adjusted for inflation.
All the amounts I'm going togive I've already adjusted for

(01:50:48):
inflation.

Remi (01:50:49):
So this guy got him what he wanted, and now Frank is
basically trying to screw himout of the bonus that he earned.

Ashley (01:50:58):
That is exactly how Mark viewed it as well.
He called him a con man and wasfired the next day.
While Mark worked to rebuildhis talent agency, frank's
bookings tanked, especiallywithin the college circuit.
This is probably why he wentcrawling back in early 1982,

(01:51:19):
this time giving Mark exactlywhat he wanted full booking
rights.
But unbeknownst to the talentand agent, they had a new
adversary on the horizon, billToney, a criminology professor
at Stephen F Austin University.
Frank lectured at SFAU inNovember 1981, and after several

(01:51:44):
of Toney's students asked forcollege credit if they went, he
told them sure, but you gottatake notes on everything and use
investigative techniques toresearch and verify everything
you heard.
His students spent the nexteight months debunking the
fraudster, using the samemethods as the journalists

(01:52:05):
before them.
Tony was invited to speak at aconference for the International
Platform Association in August1982 and used his podium to
share his students' findings.
Many colleges started torethink hiring Frank as a
speaker after the IPA conference.
Frank didn't seem to know why,and Mark was completely unaware

(01:52:29):
of the reason for about a month,when one of Tony's students ran
into him at another conferenceand gleefully shared their
research.
Mark tried to get in touch withFrank, but he was nowhere to be
found.
This marked the end of theirrelationship for good, not long
after Frank announced that hewas suspending his university

(01:52:51):
talks for good, because sharingdetails of his cons was quote,
not something to which young,impressionable minds should be
exposed.

Remi (01:53:01):
Because all of his cons are like, easily disprovable and
they're not clever at all.

Ashley (01:53:08):
Yes, but he's framing it as an yes, but he's framing it
as an.
I did bad.
I shouldn't be encouragingpeople to do bad, so I'm not
doing this anymore, but inreality, the truth is he's like
I've been got.
I need to step away from thiscrowd for a bit, but not once
did he admit to deception.

(01:53:30):
Of course he didn't, despite yetanother instance of undisputed
research proving Frank a liar.
Tony's research didn't travelbeyond college campuses, so he
was still popular with thebanking and chamber of commerce
crowds, but he did drasticallyreduce his media appearances.
However, he was facing a newlegal battle Civil lawsuits.

(01:53:56):
Tony kicked things off byfiling a civil suit for damages.
Mark also sued for businesslosses, at least two other
Harris County residents whoinvested over $60,000 in Frank's
company sued.
Once the repayment days cameand went, Frank responded by
ignoring all court orders andnotices to appear and fled to

(01:54:19):
Oklahoma.
He did make the mistake, though, of returning to Texas for a
few speaking gigs at the end of1985, during which he was served
Twice.
I don't know the outcomes ofthese lawsuits, but I suspect
some, if not all, were settledbecause he filed for bankruptcy

(01:54:40):
in 1991.
Frank continued to try to optionhis movie rights throughout the
rest of the 1980s.
Although some productionagencies were invested and
actually did pay for them,nothing ever went anywhere.
Nonetheless, he continued totease the film at various
lectures, allegedly claimingthat Tom Cruise had replaced

(01:55:02):
Dustin Hoffman.
After the release of Top Gun in1986.
Frank settled in Tulsa with hiswife and three kids and
appeared to enjoy living a quietlife in between speaking
engagements, and it did seemthat he found the perfect
balance.
He had enough popularity tolive comfortably, but less fame,

(01:55:26):
which meant he avoided publicscrutiny.
After America went on a familyvalues kick in the mid-1990s, he
reinvented himself.
Now Frank was a devoted fatherand husband who framed his hoax
within a larger saga ofredemption and model family
values.

I could sit here and tell you I was born
again.
I saw the light again.
I saw the light.
Prison rehabilitated me, butthe truth is God gave me a wife,
she gave me three beautifulchildren, she gave me a family
and she changed my life she andshe alone.
Everything I have, everythingI've achieved, who I am today is

(01:56:10):
because of the love of a womanand the respect three boys have
for their father.

Ashley (01:56:14):
In conceptualizing his criminal past, Frank portrayed
himself as a wayward youth whodidn't know better, even though
most of his crimes were notcommitted during adolescence.

I'm saying you know you were brilliant, you
were an absolute genius.
I was neither.
I was just a child.
Had it been brilliant, had werean absolute genius?
I was neither I was just achild.
Had I been brilliant, had Ibeen a genius, I don't know that
I would have found it necessaryto break the law in order to
just simply survive, and while Iknow that people are fascinated
by what I did some 50 years agoas a teenage boy, I've always

(01:56:49):
looked upon what I did assomething that was immoral,
illegal, unethical and a burdenI live with literally every
single day of my life and willuntil my death.

Ashley (01:57:00):
Steven Spielberg announced that the script for
Catch Me If you Can was almostfinished in 1999.
Frank seemed surprised and evendispleased about the news,
stating I didn't really care tohave a movie out there
exploiting my life as a teenageror glamorizing my life as a

(01:57:20):
teenager, but he sure didbenefit.
On the eve of the movie'srelease, he was charging up to
$25,000 for speaking appearancesand released a new edition of
his autobiography.
After the movie was released,he initially said it was 90%

(01:57:40):
accurate, even more so than hisown book.
However, after two journalistsfrom the New York Times yet
again debunked his claims, heposted the following message to
his website.
I feel it necessary to make thefollowing statement concerning
the book and film Catch Me Ifyou Can.

(01:58:01):
The reasons for this statementis to provide clarification and
accuracy.
I wrote the book Catch Me If youCan more than 23 years ago.
Obviously, this was writtenfrom my perspective as a
16-year-old, with the help of aco-writer.
I'm now 54, and I sold themovie rights in 1980.

(01:58:24):
I was interviewed by theco-writer only about four times.
I believe he did a great joband what the editor wanted.
He always reminded me that hewas just telling a story and not
writing my biography.
This is one of the reasons that, from the very beginning I
insisted, the publisher put adisclaimer in the book and tapes

(01:58:46):
.
It has been reported that I hadwritten $10 million, $8 million
and $5 million worth of badchecks.
The actual amount was $2.5million.
I was never on the FBI's 10 mostwanted list, as this is
reserved for very violentcriminals who pose a threat to
society.

(01:59:07):
All of the crimes I committedwere when I was between the ages
of 16 and 21.
I served time in prison inFrance, sweden and the United
States.
In the US Federal Court, I wassentenced as a youthful offender
because of my age at the timethe crimes were committed.
Even so, I was given 12 years,of which I served a total of 5

(01:59:31):
years.
Though I was given 12 years, ofwhich I served a total of five
years.
This was considered harshpunishment then and almost
unheard of today.
I have been married for over 25years and am the proud father of
three sons.
When I was 28 years old, Ithought it would be great to
have a movie about my life, butwhen I was 28, like when I was

(01:59:52):
16, I was egotistical andself-centered.
We all grow up.
Hopefully we get wiser, agebrings wisdom, and fatherhood
changes one's life completely.
I consider my past immoral andethical and illegal.
Consider my past immoral,unethical and illegal.

(02:00:18):
It is something I am not proudof.
I am proud that I have beenable to turn my life around and,
in the past 25 years, help mygovernment, my clients,
thousands of corporations andconsumers deal with the problems
of white-collar crime and fraud, of white-collar crime and
fraud.
I know that Hollywood has madea number of changes to the story
, but I am honored that StevenSpielberg, leonardo DiCaprio and

(02:00:40):
Tom Hanks participated in themaking of the movie inspired by
my life.
It is important to understandthat it is just a movie, not a
biographical documentary.
Signed Frank Abagnale,september 2003.

Remi (02:00:58):
It seems like this guy sold the rights off to his movie
very, very early on and, as wediscussed during my segment, it
was passed from studio to studiofor several, several years and
I think he sold these rights offthinking that this project may

(02:01:19):
potentially never get made, butthe day that it did get made by
Steven fucking Spielberg withTom Hanks and Leonardo DiCaprio
with Tom Hanks and LeonardoDiCaprio.
That brings a lot of attentionto your story that you have been
claiming is true for severaldecades.

(02:01:40):
So I feel like at this point heis in way over his head and
just trying to cover his tracksany way he can.

Ashley (02:01:49):
Basically, oh for sure.
That's exactly what happened.
He not only sold the rights, hewas trying to peddle them for a
decade, and it kept goingnowhere.

Remi (02:01:59):
And I do want to point out , in a lot of these films they
bring on the people who wereactually involved in the true
story.
As an advisor of some sort,frank Abagnale Jr was never
brought on in any officialcapacity for the actual film.

Ashley (02:02:17):
I also think it's funny to point out that when the movie
was first released in December2002, he was telling people this
is 90% accurate to my life.
It's even more accurate thanthe autobiography it's based on.
It wasn't until two reportersfrom the Los Angeles Times
basically did the exact sameexpose that had been done on him

(02:02:40):
years prior, revealed that itwas all fake, that he kind of
tried to step back and was likethings were exaggerated for the
movie.
It's Hollywood, what do youexpect?
Back and was like things wereexaggerated for the movie.
It's Hollywood, what do youexpect?
But before we move away fromthe movie, let's address a
question that no doubt has beenbouncing through your mind for

(02:03:01):
the past hour how the hell didFrank manage to fool everyone
for decades and, in many ways,continue to get away with it to
this day?
Well, the short answer is itsounds like he had help Per Alan
Logan, the author of theGreatest Hoax on Earth, catching
the Truth While we Can, whichis the main source material I

(02:03:23):
use for my portion, and I did doextra internet research to make
sure that it wasn't just thisone guy.
Everything that Alan Logan saysin his book a lot of it is on
Frank Abagnale's Wikipedia pagenow and there are links to all
the articles that Alan Logantalks about.

(02:03:43):
He is very good at citing hissources, so this guy did his
research.
But anyways, per his book,frank teamed up with Leo
Langulaw, the author of anadvertising and marketing agency
, in 1976.
Leo started negotiating a bookmovie package as early as 1977,

(02:04:05):
meaning both men stood to profitfrom a captivating tale.

Remi (02:04:10):
So they were trying to sell this story really, really
early on.

Ashley (02:04:15):
And this guy was a marketing advertising executive,
someone who knows how to crafta persona that can be digested
by America.
In June 1977, Stan Redding, theco-author of Frank's 1980
autobiography, interviewed himfor the Houston Chronicle.

(02:04:38):
Leo was introduced as areputable source who could vouch
for Frank's tales.
This suggests that all threemen were involved in creating
the public persona of FrankAbagnale Jr.

Remi (02:04:51):
The Times Before Internet.

Ashley (02:04:54):
Frank's relationship with Leo soured in 1978, when
the L'Angoulis CommunicationsCompany filed a civil suit
demanding he turn overeverything designed to quote
commercially exploit his lifestory dating back to January
1976.
This likely dates the beginningof their relationship and places

(02:05:18):
it about one year before hegave his first major talk, where
he started telling hisquote-unquote life story in
Galveston, texas, in January1977.
Leo, no doubt, would have beena valuable asset for a young man
in his late 20s looking tocraft a public persona that

(02:05:40):
would rank in buku bucks.
And as for co-author StanRedding, well, frank never once
accused him of tellingexaggerated or embellished tales
.
That is not until the releaseof the film.
But by that time Stan had beendead for 15 years and couldn't
defend himself.
Now, that's not saying I don'tthink Stan Redding was the most

(02:06:03):
ethical of journalists.
In fact the Houston Chronicle,his own employer, described him
as a teller of tall tales in his1987 obituary, while other
fellow journalists flat out saidthat Stan lied in his stories
to create publicity.

(02:06:24):
What do you think, remy, aboutthat theory that kind of all
three of these guys wereinvolved because of a financial
gain?
They saw down the line.

Remi (02:06:34):
I think it checks out.
I don't think Frank was smartenough to pull off this sort of
thing himself.
He wasn't smart, he wasn'torganized, he wasn't good at
keeping track of his stories.
So it makes a lot of sense thathe found some people that were
able to do that for him and gethim a lot of publicity for it.

Ashley (02:06:55):
I believe it too.
I truly believe that all threeof these men concocted a story
and that Frank was kind ofcoached on what to say and not
to do and then by the time theystarted falling off one by one.
He already had enough momentum,he didn't need help falling off
one by one.
He already had enough momentum,he didn't need help.

(02:07:15):
After the development of thesaga of Frank Abagnale Jr was
established, there were othersubtle ways that I think he
avoided getting caught.
These involved the excuses andavoidance tactics he used when
things were too hot for him.
Adding the disclaimer aboutchanging virtually all
identifying information when hepublished his autobiography was,

(02:07:36):
for sure, helpful, and eventrying to tie himself to the FBI
was clever, as it's an agencynotorious for secrecy.
In fact, the FBI said virtuallynothing about his claims Until
after the film was released,when a spokesperson gave a brief
statement acknowledging thatFrank had given lectures at the

(02:07:59):
academy quote from time to timebut was never given
commendations or employed by theagency.
Many now believe his work forthe FBI was minimal.
In the few years after Catch MeIf you Can's release, frank
continued to tell his story atpacked venues.

(02:08:20):
I listened to several talksspanning decades and they are
clearly memorized for hashingsof the bullshit he's been
peddling for decades, all bentnow with a lengthy sob story
about how he was a naive kidstruggling to survive after he
was shattered beyond repair whenhis parents surprised him by

(02:08:41):
announcing their divorce infamily court the day it was
approved.
And before he starts talkingabout himself, he likes to say
that he doesn't like talkingabout himself and actively tries
to avoid doing it.
Another obvious untruth Frankbecame an ambassador for the

(02:09:01):
American Association of RetiredPersons, advocating for the
protection of the elderly andretirees from fraudsters.
He has published four booksabout fraud protection from 2001
to 2019.
White Collar, a series inspiredby Frank and starring Matt

(02:09:22):
Bomber, aired on the USA Networkfrom 2009 to 2014.
He attended the 2001 Tony Awardswhere Catch Me If you Can.
The musical received fournominations and won Best
Performing Actor in a Musical.
In February 2020, former Deltaflight attendant Paula Parks

(02:09:43):
learned he was speaking at aconference and decided to
confront him.
She intended to talk to himprivately to make it clear how
much pain he caused her, sincedeceased parents.
The encounter, unsurprisingly,didn't go as she hoped.
Frank showed no recognitionwhen she approached his book
table and told him who her andher family were.

(02:10:06):
After a little back and forth,she asked him to sign a copy of
his autobiography and title itto her parents with an apology,
and this is what she got ToCharlotte and John Sorry.
He met media scrutiny onceagain during a talk at Xavier
University when he was awardedthe Heroes in Ethics Award on

(02:10:29):
September 12, 2022.

Remi (02:10:33):
Are you kidding me?

Ashley (02:10:34):
Well, you weren't the only person to be thinking this,
because Frank made a mistake.
He opened the floor to audiencequestions and Jim Grunstead,
host of the Scams and Conspodcast, asked the following
question.
So I wonder, in light of theEth ethics award you're going to
be presented tonight, would youcome clean?

(02:10:55):
Would you tell the truth aboutthe stories you've told?
Will you admit that you justlied to everybody and you're
still conning them?
Frank denied telling lies orspreading misinformation.
Today, frank Abagnale is 77years old and lives with his
wife on Daniel Island, an islandcommunity that is part of

(02:11:18):
Charleston, south Carolina.
He claims to have beenassociated with the FBI for 40
years and continues to maintaina busy speaking schedule.
Per his website, he has spokenat five major conferences thus
far in 2025.
And that is the true story ofSteven Spielberg's.

(02:11:40):
Catch Me, if you Can.
Wow, what a whirlwind.
Let's all take a minute.
Take a deep breath, remy.
What do you think about FrankAbagnale?

Remi (02:11:58):
You know, I gotta say that it kind of bums me out a little
bit that this is the guy thatwe ended up discussing for our
season premiere.
He really did not do very muchat all and even his lies seems
like they were like piggybackingoff of other people's stories
and I don't know.
He just was so full of shit andnot impressive and probably
like the lamest con man I'veever heard of, to be honest.

Ashley (02:12:21):
Yeah, it is baffling to me that he was able to get away
with this for so long and inmany ways, continues to get away
with it.
Even on his Wikipedia it nowacknowledges that much of what
he says has been disprovenmultiple times, but he still
continues to sell the samerehashed stories even to this

(02:12:45):
day and pretty much unchecked.

Remi (02:12:48):
There are so many really fascinating, brilliant, true
life con men who have existedthroughout the years.
I know that someone actuallysold the Eiffel Tower in a con
job and of course they did notown the Eiffel Tower.
But when you hear of a reallyimpressive con job, it kind of
wows you.
You're like, wow, that persongot away with that.

(02:13:09):
I would never have theconfidence or the know-how or
the skill to do that.
This guy I could have done anyof the things that he did.
He was not smart, clever andhonestly it makes me like the
movie a little bit less becausethey are promoting him as this
suave, cool, successful con manplayed by Leonardo DiCaprio.

Ashley (02:13:30):
Well, arguably his biggest con is his entire career
, the fact that he made up thesetales, I truly believe, with
the help of a media consultantand an author, and then was able
to earn millions of dollarsover the course of decades.

Remi (02:13:49):
I know there is a ton of really big changes that we know
of from the adaptation here, butwhat about a smaller change?
So let's hop into our objectionof the week.
Your honor.
I object.
And why is that, Mr Reed?
Because it's devastating to mycase.
Overruled.
Good call.

(02:14:09):
And in case this is your firsttime joining us, welcome.
And our objection of the weekis the most unnecessary, lamest,
superfluous change which wasmade in the adaptation to the
Silver Screen.
Ashley, would you like to kickthings off for us in our season

(02:14:29):
premiere?

Ashley (02:14:31):
Okay.
So, like you said, there'sobviously a ton of huge changes.
One of the minor changes Iwrote down is that in the
opening scene on To Tell theTruth, you had said that all
three of the quote unquote FrankAbagnales were dressed as
pilots, when on the real clipthat he was on that I showed you

(02:14:51):
, one is dressed as a pilotthat's the real Frank One is
dressed as a doctor and theother one is dressed in prison
attire.
So I'm going to go with thatand I actually think it's
funnier having them dressed asdifferent personas than having
them just all be dressed thesame.

Remi (02:15:07):
The prisoner persona was the funniest to me.
He's literally dressed like theHamburglar standing next to
Frank Abagnale dressed as apilot there.
But for my objection of theweek.
Normally we do try to avoidname changes, just because name
changes happen in almost everysingle adaptation somehow.
However, when it's a namechange this small, I feel like

(02:15:32):
it warrants a mention here.
In the film, frank's mother isnamed Paula.
In reality her name wasPaulette.
That is my objection of theweek.
You couldn't get more pointlessthan that.

Ashley (02:15:47):
Most of the time when we try to avoid names, it's
because they had to change thename for legal reasons.
I don't think they had to dothat here, so that is weird that
Spielberg did that.
So I'll give it to you.

Remi (02:16:00):
All right, starting off season five strong, which brings
us to the main event of ourpodcast, our verdict.

Verdict (02:16:22):
At the conclusion of each episode, our hosts will
deliver a verdict based on thefilm's accuracy.
Our podcast Our Verdict thefilm will be declared a mistrial
.
But if the film ultimatelystrays too far from the truth,
then it will be condemned asguilty and sentenced to a life
behind bars.

Ashley (02:16:39):
And I do want to note here before we get started I
think this is going to be apretty easy one.
This movie is technically basedon the autobiography, but by
the time it came around thatSpielberg had the rights to this
, he could have very well havedone a little bit research
beyond the autobiography if hewas still going to plan on

(02:16:59):
saying that the movie wasinspired by a true story.
So I'm just keeping that in myhead as I'm going forward with
this.
Remy, why don't you start?

Remi (02:17:08):
Like you said, I don't think this is going to be a
shocker.
I'm giving this film a bigguilty verdict.
Everything Frank said wasbasically made up and I know
that the film is based on hisbook, but it seems like it was
already starting to be prettycommon knowledge that this guy

(02:17:28):
was full of shit and Spielberggave him an outlet to broadcast
his shit with this movie andit's sort of a bummer because I
think he would have maybe justdwindled away, especially with
the emergence of the internetand people being able to check
people's history and backstoriesa lot easier.
But this film kind ofimmortalized him in a way and

(02:17:51):
that sucks, because this guydoes not deserve to be
immortalized.
He was a loser, he was ahorrible womanizer and a bit of
a perv and he really didn't doanything impressive.
So, yeah, I can't give thismovie anything but a guilty
verdict, which breaks my heart,because I love Spielberg, I love
Hanks and I love DiCaprio, butman, I hate theanks and I love

(02:18:12):
DiCaprio, but man, I hate thereal Frank Abagnale Jr.

Ashley (02:18:16):
It totally does seem that this movie gave him a
resurgence.
Like I had mentioned, by thetime it was coming out, the
anticipation about it caused himto be able to raise his
speaking rates like tenfold,which is absolutely bonkers.
I don't know what he chargesnow.
I'm sure it's dropped downagain, hopefully at least.
But I agree with you.

(02:18:37):
It's obvious this is a guiltyverdict.
It is so guilty it might evenrival Scream in its guilt.
Frank Abagnale is a con man andif you ever meet him, be warned
Don't believe anything thatcomes out of this elderly man's
mouth.

Remi (02:18:56):
Well, that's it.
We got two guilty verdicts.
Catch Me, if you Can is beingsent to the big house, but what
is our court case on the docketfor two weeks from now?
Ashley, I know it's a verydifferent one than what we just
discussed here today.

Ashley (02:19:12):
It is.
I am very excited for it.
I didn't know much about thetrue story, just kind of the
basics.
It's a very, very, very famouscase and the movie is one I know
you have seen before and talkedabout how much you really enjoy
it.
I have not seen it, so I'mexcited to hear about it.
We are going to be talkingabout Gus Van Sant's To Die For,

(02:19:32):
which is inspired by the caseof Pamela Smart, who hired some
teenagers to kill her husband.

Remi (02:19:41):
I love this movie.
It is starring Nicole Kidman,joaquin Phoenix, matt Dillon.
It is a satirical comedy thatcame out back in the mid-90s and
it is probably one of the filmsthat got me interested in
filmmaking to begin with.
I really really like this filmand I look forward to discussing
it in a couple of weeks.

(02:20:02):
I really don't get to chatabout this with very many people
because it seems like this cameand went and now it's not
really discussed much anymore,which is a shame.

Ashley (02:20:11):
And before we wind down here, I just want to give a big
special thanks to all of ourlisteners.
I've noticed an uptick infive-star ratings across
platforms, so we very, very muchappreciate it.
We also got a rather new review.
That is from Driver172 that Iwanted to read.

(02:20:33):
This one-of-a-kind podcast, withthe aid of tireless research
from remy and ashley, followssome of our heavily followed to
barely known true crime storiesand informs us what happened
when these stories were placedin the hands of hollywood.
The format for this breakdownis explained to each listener at
the beginning of each podcastand the movie is rated
accordingly by a verdict at theend of each episode, based on

(02:20:55):
how far it ventured from thetruth.
Remy usually opens bypresenting the Hollywood version
, by breaking down theproduction and plot, and
concludes by offering hisopinion of the movie.
Then Ashley jumps in byinforming us what really
happened, by giving us the trueevents as presented by a
nonfiction account, as told by areputable book.
For instance, most all of usare aware that Denzel Washington

(02:21:18):
played Malcolm X, but how truewas Spike Lee's movie compared
to the true story of the famedrevolutionary?
If you're a movie buff orbookster, or both, you will not
only find out, you will bethoroughly entertained by Remy
and Ashley in the process.
Thank you so much for thosekind words.

Remi (02:21:36):
Yes, thank you, and thank all of you for tuning in or
streaming or downloading, orwhatever the proper terminology
is, and we appreciate any wordof mouth, any reviews, any five
stars, anything like that.
It all helps, and we are veryhappy to be back with a brand
new season with many more tocome in the future.

(02:21:58):
We are going to be leaving youwith a trailer for To Die, for
the film we will be covering twoweeks from now, but until then,
court is adjourned.

To Die For Trailer (02:22:09):
Suzanne would do anything to be famous.
She's going to be the nextBarbara.

Verdict (02:22:15):
Walters, I believe that Mr Gorbachev you know the man
who ran Russia for so long.
I believe that he would stillbe in power today if he had that
big purple thing taken off hisforehead To be on television.
You're not anybody in Americaunless you're on TV.

To Die For Trailer (02:22:30):
Was a chance she would die for.
You're on, good evening fromthe.
Wwen Weather Center.
Weather Center.
Have any of you actually everbeen on television before?
To be a star, you've got to beable to do things that ordinary

(02:22:52):
people wouldn't do was theopportunity she would kill for.
Okay, and that's exactly whatshe did.

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