To Die For

Episode Transcript
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Ashley (00:08):
Welcome to Criminal Adaptations, the show where we
take a look at some of yourfavorite movies and the true
crime stories that inspired them.
I'm Ashley.
I'm a clinical psychologist andforensic evaluator in the state
of Oregon.

Remi (00:21):
And I'm Remy.
I spent over a decade workingin the film and television
industry in Los Angeles,California.

Ashley (00:28):
Hello and welcome back everyone for our second episode
of season five.
As always, we are so happy thatyou're here with us today and,
as a quick reminder, if you doenjoy this podcast, please,
please, please, rate, review,subscribe, tell a friend

(00:48):
anything to get the word out.
We love doing this and we hopeyou all are enjoying the season
thus far, because we haveanother doozy for you.
Remy, how are you?

Remi (01:02):
I'm doing pretty well today, looking forward to
discussing a film which isprobably one of my favorites,
definitely in the top 20.

Ashley (01:11):
Wow, that is high praise for a movie I have not seen.
What are we talking about today?

Remi (01:17):
Today we will be discussing the Gus Van Sant film
To Die For, starring NicoleKidman, which is based on the
book To Die For, which is basedloosely on the Pamela Smart case
.

Ashley (01:31):
Yeah, I believe it's a novelization of it that's
loosely inspired by her.

Remi (01:36):
Were you familiar with Pamela Smart or this film before
we decided to add it to thisseason?

Ashley (01:42):
I definitely heard about Pamela Smart.
It's probably a name that mostAmericans know, especially if
you were alive around the time.
This all happened in 1990,which I was, but I was a wee,
wee, wee little one.
As for the movie, I had neverheard of it before until you
suggested it.

Remi (02:02):
I saw this film because it came out the same year as
Batman Forever, which NicoleKidman was the female lead in,
and that was the first film Iever saw her in and I was in
love.
I thought she was phenomenal.
I think this was the secondfilm I ever saw her in and I
actually got my mom to take meto the theater to see this one.

(02:24):
Believe it or not, it's alwayshad a soft spot in my heart.
I had assumed for a really longtime that this was an entirely
fictitious tale.
Then I heard later on that itwas loosely inspired by Pamela
Smart and, to be honest, I amextremely unfamiliar with the
Pamela Smart case and for yearsI thought that the ending of

(02:44):
this movie was how Pamela Smartended.
But boy oh boy was I wrong whenI started looking into the
actual true story.
This film is also directed byGus Van Sant, who we will be
discussing in future episodessuch as Milk Elephant, and we
already discussed in Feud Capotevs the Swans, which he directed

(03:05):
six episodes.
But I think he is mainly knownfor Good Will Hunting, obviously
, which we watched not that longago.

Ashley (03:13):
We did, and that is quite a repertoire of movies,
all of which, except for maybeElephant that's obviously the
lesser known of the bunch, butI'm pretty sure all of the other
ones got very high praise.

Remi (03:27):
Van Sant made a film called Jerry I think it was just
a couple of years after GoodWill Hunting and it stars Casey
Affleck, who is one of the starsof this film, and Matt Damon,
the writer and star of Good WillHunting.
But the plot of the film isabout two guys named Jerry who
are going to the desert lookingfor a thing and they get lost.

(03:47):
And the whole movie is justthem lost, walking around the
desert with no supplies and nowater, slowly dehydrating and
starving to death.
It is a really weird movie, butit was a trip.
I really enjoyed it.
He has a lot of films like thatthat are kind of slow and
meandering, but I would notcategorize this as one of those
types of films.

Ashley (04:08):
Well, with that, let's just dive right into it, shall
we?
I know we have a lot of groundto cover today.

To Die For Clip (04:13):
You're not anybody in America unless you're
on TV.
On TV is where we learn aboutwho we really are, Because
what's the point of doinganything worthwhile if nobody's
watching?
And if people are watching itmakes you a better person.

Remi (04:28):
To Die For is a 1995 satirical comedy film written by
Buck Henry and directed by GusVan Sant, starring Nicole Kidman
, joaquin Phoenix, matt Dillon,ileana Douglas, casey Affleck
and Alison Foland.
Casey Affleck and Alison FolandTo Die For began with a

(04:49):
screenplay by Buck Henry, whoyears earlier had written Mike
Nichols' 1967 film the Graduate,earning Henry his first Academy
Award nomination.

Ashley (04:54):
Wow, the Graduate is that old.
It does not feel like a filmfrom the 60s.

Remi (04:59):
It was basically the film that kicked off Dustin Hoffman's
career, and he has been aroundforever.
I think he was in his early 20swhen he made that film, so yeah
, it's pretty old.
After a period of relativeobscurity, Buck later returned
to prominence with To Die For,which was adapted from Joyce
Maynard's novel of the same name.
Maynard's book, published in1992, was loosely inspired by

(05:22):
the Pamela Smart case, which haddrawn national media attention
as one of the first televisedcourtroom trials in US history.

Ashley (05:30):
It was the first one which I did not know until I was
researching this.
How crazy is that.

Remi (05:36):
So it's sort of a history-making trial in that
regard.
But yeah, I thought this wasgoing on back in the 80s.

Ashley (05:42):
Hard to believe, but yeah, I thought this was going
on back in the 80s.
Hard to believe.
And then it is followed up withOJ and the Menendez brothers,
and now televised courtroomtrials are just part of our
lexicon.

Remi (05:53):
The book eventually caught the attention of producer Laura
Ziskin, who passed it along toAmy Pascal, then an executive VP
at Columbia Pictures, resultingin the studio purchasing the
film rights.
Originally, Maynard had writtenthe novel in a faux-documentary
style, structured as a seriesof testimonials, but Buck Henry
chose to reshape the story intoa satirical black comedy by

(06:17):
injecting the sharp wit andbiting pop culture commentary
that would inevitably define thefilm's new tone.
During this time, Buck Henrytold his agent that he was eager
to work with Gus Van Sant, whohad just come off the 1993 box
office bomb.
Even Cowgirls Get the Blues.
Have you ever heard of thisfilm, Ashley?

Ashley (06:36):
Not once.

Remi (06:38):
I haven't seen it, but I've seen clips of it and I know
it is a western, starring UmaThurman as a cowgirl with a
really really long thumb.
That's all I got people.
I wonder why it wasn't asuccess.
Coincidentally, van Sant hadalso expressed interest in
working with Henry, leading toTo Die For becoming the first

(06:58):
film Van Sant directed that hedid not write himself.
Initially, the studio imaginedMeg Ryan in the lead role, who
at the time was primarily knownfor her work in romantic comedy
films such as Sleepless inSeattle and when Harry Met Sally
.
Though Ryan was interested andwas offered a $5 million salary,
she ultimately passed on theproject due to a pay dispute, so

(07:22):
apparently she wanted moremoney.
Project due to a pay dispute,so apparently she wanted more
money.
Other actresses who read forthe role of Suzanne Stone
included a then-unknown EllenDeGeneres, patricia Arquette and
even Janine Garofalo.
Arquette was Van Sant's firstchoice amongst the group, but
she was soon committed toanother project in Asia so
became unavailable.

(07:43):
Enter Nicole Kidman.
At the time, kidman was lookingto break away from big-budget
Hollywood productions like Daysof Thunder and Far and Away,
both of which she co-starred inalongside her then-husband Tom
Cruise.
Kidman had originally startedher career acting in independent
films back in Australia andlonged for the opportunity to

(08:04):
work with lower-budgetedcinematic auteurs again.
So when Kidman read the scriptfor To Die For, she became
utterly consumed with landingthe role.
In fact, kidman even trackeddown Gus Van Sant's personal
phone number and called him athome.
The two spoke for over 40minutes about her vision for
Suzanne, and Van Sant recalledthinking if she's this into it,

(08:26):
she'll probably do a really goodjob.
Kidman got the part just twohours later, at a salary of $2
million.
Funnily enough, in Maynard'soriginal novel, suzanne even
states that she hopes theactress who just married Tom
Cruise would play her in themovie.

Ashley (08:42):
That's really funny.
What a coincidence.

Remi (08:45):
For the role of Jimmy Emmett.
The production consideredseveral young actors, including
Johnny Galecki, adrian Grenier,edward Furlong and Giovanni
Ribisi.
Furlong was reportedlydisappointed that he wasn't
offered the role, since hethought his meeting with Van
Sant had gone pretty well and Ido think he could have done this
role.
But Phoenix really hits it outof the park.

Ashley (09:07):
It's hard to beat Joaquin Phoenix.
I know he's a bit of a weirdo,but man, he's a good actor.

Remi (09:13):
Well, matt Damon also read for the part of Jimmy, who Van
Sant was totally blown away byeven saying after his audition
now that's a movie star.
However, damon was around 24years old at this time and
looked a bit too old to beportraying a teenager.
But Damon offered to slim downa bit in order to make himself

(09:33):
appear a bit younger on screen.
Though Damon did accomplishthis task, van Sant still felt
that Damon was a bit tooclean-cut and joked that Jimmy
shouldn't look like a baseballplayer.
And I agree Damon does kind ofhave that jock look to him.
Eventually, van Sant heardthrough an agent that Joaquin

(09:53):
Phoenix was interested inauditioning, which Van Sant was
open to since he had previouslydirected Joaquin's late brother,
river Phoenix, in his 1991 filmmy Own Private, idaho.
Joaquin, who was 19 at the timeand living in Florida, flew to
New York for the audition and,according to casting director
Meredith Tucker, it was one ofthe most incredible auditions

(10:15):
she'd ever witnessed and he wasoffered the part almost
immediately.
As for Russell Hines, mattDamon recommended his best
friend's younger brother, caseyAffleck, for the role.
Casey had a much more scrappyappearance than Ben and Matt and
would audition six times beforeVan Sant finally saw him.
In the end, van Sant was wonover by Casey's thick Boston

(10:38):
accent which, ironically, benand Matt had both spent a
considerable amount of effortattempting to stifle to advance
their careers.
At the time, casey Affleck wasonly 17 years old and To Die For
would be his feature film debut.

Casey Affleck (10:54):
We rehearsed on that movie Remember the
rehearsal, yeah, which afterthat there's not that many
rehearsals, not many movieswhere you get the chance to
rehearse but Gus Vincent had usall sit down and we improvised
stuff.
We just had sort of genericlike sit in a circle as your
character I don't know like youdo the scene and then keep
talking a little bit, and thatwas really fun and I was kind of

(11:17):
spoiled because I thought thatthat's what all movies would be
like, working with you and Gusand Joaquin, and obviously you
know they're not all that great.

But you guys were fun.
We had fun.
We were fun to shoot with.
Yeah, yeah, well, you werethose boys.

Well, I wouldn't go that far In character.
That's a bit of an insult, no,no.
I know.

Remi (11:44):
For the role of Janice Moreto, several actresses were
considered, including SandraBullock, janine Garofalo,
jennifer Tilly, katherine Keener, terry Hatcher and even Ellen
DeGeneres, again until IleanaDouglas was eventually cast.
However, buck Henry reportedlywasn't thrilled with the choice
and felt that Douglas'performance didn't fit the tone

(12:06):
of the rest of the film.
Henry even created his own VHSedit of the movie with her role
cut out entirely, whichcinematographer Eric Allen
Edwards described as completelyunwatchable For the part of
troubled teenager Lydia Mertz.
The production worked with alocal Boston casting agency in
search of someone authentic tothe region.

(12:28):
This is how they found AlisonFoland, a high school student
from Cambridge with no actingaspirations, who only showed up
to the open casting call out ofsheer curiosity.
The casting team assumed shehad dressed specifically for the
role, when in actuality Follandwas simply wearing her average
attire.
Van Sant later said theycouldn't even tell if she was

(12:50):
acting or just being herselfduring the audition.

Ashley (12:53):
Probably a little bit of both.

Remi (12:55):
I don't think I've seen this actress in anything else,
but she does a really good jobin this film.
For the role of Larry Moreto,several names were considered,
including Viggo Mortensen, tomSizemore, vincent Gallo and
Chris Isaac.
Matt Dillon had previouslyworked with Van Sant on his 1989
film Drugstore Cowboy andapparently his audition to play

(13:17):
Larry was so good that thecasting team completely forgot
about any other actor who hadcome before him.
Principal photography tookplace from April to June 1994,
with the film shot primarily inand around Port Hope, ontario.
The high school scenes werefilmed at King City Secondary
School in King City, with actualstudents used as extras.

(13:40):
The honeymoon scenes withSuzanne and Larry were filmed in
the Tampa Bay area of Florida.
So shout out to all my TampaBay and Sarasota folks out there
, you know who you are.
And finally, the film's scorewas composed by none other than
Danny Elfman, who you probablyknow from just about every Tim
Burton film, whose musical styleadded an eerie satirical touch
to the film's atmosphere.

(14:01):
Now, ashley, are you ready tohear all about Gus Van Sant's To
Die For?

Ashley (14:07):
Yeah, let's get into it.
I'm excited.

Remi (14:23):
Our story begins in Little Hope, new Hampshire, in the
dead of winter, where SuzanneStone, played by Nicole Kidman,
is attending her husband'sfuneral, surrounded by a swarm
of reporters and news cameras.
As the opening credits rollover a montage of headlines
covering Suzanne and the murderof her late husband, the title
sequence ends with us comingface to face with Suzanne

(14:45):
herself, speaking directly tothe camera and introducing
herself as Suzanne Moreto.
She then quickly correctsherself by clarifying that
Moreto was actually her marriedname, which belonged to her late
husband, larry, played by MattDillon, so now prefers to go by
her professional name of SuzanneStone.

The point is that, for instance, Connie Chung
, who is married, I believe, toMari Povich, the well-known
interviewer, doesn't say hello,this is Connie Povich with the
news now does she?
And I don't think she would beembarrassed by it or anything
like that, because she's alreadypretty ethnic when you think
about it.
Or, to take another example,someone who doesn't appear to
have an ethnic bone in her body,there's Jane Polly, who I

(15:30):
strongly relate to because youknow we have similar physical
traits, Although I, thankfully,don't have to struggle with a
white problem like she does.

Ashley (15:44):
It's not really a good luck to already abandon your
married name like days afteryour husband was murdered.

Remi (15:48):
Physically, suzanne has strawberry blonde hair in a
voluminous bob with bangs, fairskin, soft makeup and is dressed
in a light pink blazer withgold earrings.
The entire scene plays muchmore like a pre-prepared
audition tape for a realitytelevision show than a grieving

(16:09):
widow mourning the tragic lossof her beloved husband.
We then cut to Frank's sister,janice Moreto, played by Ileana
Douglas, being interviewed at anice skating rink.
Janice recounts how Larry firstlaid eyes on Suzanne while
bartending at his family'sItalian restaurant Moretto's.
According to Janice, it waslove at first sight for Larry
and he was instantaneouslysmitten, while Janice thought

(16:32):
Suzanne came across as a bit ofa C-word C standing for cold.
Of course, at the time Larrydrove a Harley and played drums
in a cover band, so obviouslycould have had any woman he
wanted.
But despite Susan's colddemeanor and Janice's repeated
attempts to dissuade him, larryjust couldn't resist her.

(16:53):
After only a short time dating,larry was head over heels and
announced that he planned onmarrying Suzanne, much to
Janice's dismay, who mockinglypretends to vomit.
While Larry thinks the world ofSuzanne and speaks nothing but
praise about her, she comesacross as a shallow,
self-absorbed airhead topractically everyone else that

(17:13):
she encounters.
We next cut to a daytime TVinterview featuring Suzanne and
Larry's parents, earl and CarolStone, played by Kurtwood Smith
and Holland Taylor, and Joe andAngela Moreto, played by Dan
Hedaya and Maria Tucci.
Earl begins by admitting thathe initially didn't think that
Larry was good enough forSuzanne, due to Larry's lack of

(17:36):
a college education.
He even offhandedly suggestedthat Larry's Italian family
could have mafia ties to deterhis daughter, but Suzanne would
simply laugh this off as aseemingly ridiculous prospect.
Joe Moretto, on the other hand,had always hoped that Larry
would marry a nice Italian girl,but realized that his son was

(17:56):
serious about Suzanne afterLarry sold his beloved drum kit
in an effort to become more ofthe man Suzanne envisioned.
Larry and Suzanne were marriedsoon after, with Suzanne herself
personally designing theirwedding rings and also had her
bridal veil copied from theexact one Maria Shriver wore
during her wedding to ArnoldSchwarzenegger.

(18:18):
The couple honeymooned inFlorida at Suzanne's suggestion,
which was odd, since Suzanneusually avoided the sun.
As well as beaches, however,larry loved boating and fishing,
so supposedly Suzanne hadchosen the destination simply to
make her new husband happy,though there is a lingering
implication that she likelycheated on Larry during his many
hours of oceanic excursionsAfter returning from their

(18:42):
honeymoon, larry cashes out hissavings, which he had planned on
using to return to collegesomeday, and instead uses the
money for a down payment on acondo and a Mustang for Suzanne
to drive to her new job workingdown at the local WWEN
television station.
We are next introduced to ateenage girl named Lydia Mertz,
played by Alison Foland, beinginterviewed for a documentary

(19:05):
discussing the many life lessonsshe learned from Suzanne, such
as Opportunity is alwaysknocking, but if you aren't
listening, its knuckles get soreand it moves on to another
house.
Lydia also reveals that Suzanneclaimed to have chosen a
specific hotel in Florida forher and Larry's honeymoon,
knowing full well that it wouldconcurrently be hosting a

(19:26):
national broadcaster'sconference, giving Suzanne ample
opportunity to hobnob with bigshot TV executives, while Larry
was none the wiser.

Ashley (19:35):
I will be so mad if you plan our honeymoon to line up
with some convention.

Remi (19:42):
I think it would be weird in general to go on your
honeymoon and spend like zerotime with the person you just
married.
Isn think it would be weird ingeneral to go on your honeymoon
and spend like zero time withthe person you just married.
Isn't it supposed to be aboutyou two connecting and being
together, not one person goingoff and doing their thing and
the other going off and doingtheir thing?

Ashley (19:55):
Yeah, I don't think it bodes well for the status of the
marriage.

Remi (20:00):
Flashing back to the honeymoon, suzanne effortlessly
slips into the broadcaster'sconference and ends up having
drinks with one of the speakers,played by George Siegel.
George advises Suzanne to useher sexuality to compensate for
her lack of experience if sheever wants to get ahead in the
industry.
And though Suzanne clearlylooks uncomfortable with the

(20:20):
suggestion, it is heavilyimplied that she put this advice
to use that very same evening.
There's a lot of implicationsin this film.
Most things are not directlyshown.
That's why I keep phrasingthings like that.
It never shows anything, butit's hinted at.
We then hear from Suzanne'sformer boss at WWEN, ed Grant,

(20:41):
played by Seinfeld's NewmanWayne Knight, who recalls
originally hiring Suzanne to dolittle more than answer the mail
and run errands for minimum payand no benefits.
Nevertheless, Suzanne stillviewed her job as the first
stepping stone towards her dreamof someday becoming an on-air
personality.

Ashley (21:01):
We all gotta start somewhere.

Remi (21:03):
That is very true of the entertainment industry If you
got a foot in the door, it canlead to bigger things Around.
This time, larry gifts Suzannea small Pomeranian which she
positively adores and namesWalter after the legendary CBS
news anchor Walter Cronkite.
Since there wasn't much forSuzanne to do down at WWEN, she

(21:24):
primarily spent her time workingon her Idea File, which was a
collection of potential newsstories she hoped to cover once
getting on the air.
These file folders were allpink, of course, which is sort
of fun in a Legally Blonde sortof way.
She kind of reminds me of anevil Elle Woods in this film
actually of reminds me of anevil Elwoods in this film
actually.

(21:44):
After many months ofpersistence, ed finally gave in
and offered Suzanne her firston-camera gig doing the nightly
weather report live on air eachand every evening.

Ashley (21:55):
See, she hustled and she got what she wanted, or is on
her way towards it.

Remi (22:01):
She was persistent.
She kept bringing her ideafiles to her boss every single
day, over and over and overagain, and wore him down,
basically until he was like fine, okay, we'll put you on the air
.
The story then shifts to aprison interview with troubled
teenager Jimmy Emmett, played byJoaquin Phoenix, who shares an
intimate story of how Suzannecompletely changed the way he

(22:24):
physically experiences theweather.

I never really gave a rat's ass about the
weather until I got to know myson Reto.

Pamela Smart (22:35):
Now I take it very serious.
If it rains or there'slightning or thunder, or if it's
smooth, I have to check off.

Remi (22:48):
Uh, oh right, sorry wow, that does not come across creepy
at all in retrospect, I thinkthis was the first thing I ever
saw joaquin phoenix in, so thisscene was literally my
introduction to Joaquin Phoenixand I think it's kind of stuck
in the back of my mind eversince.

(23:08):
I can never not view him askind of creepy.
In yet another flashback we seeSuzanne in a high school
classroom speaking to a group ofjuvenile delinquents as an
on-air correspondent from WWEN.
Though she tries to maintainher composure, she is heckled
relentlessly, especially by onestudent in particular named

(23:29):
Russell Hines, played by CaseyAffleck.

Well, first of all, I would like to thank you
all for extending me thecourtesy of your time and
attention.

I got something to extend.

And I would like to say that I hope you'll
all be as excited about theproject I'm here to propose to
you as I am.
First of all, I want to askhave any of you actually ever
been on television before Notcounting home video, of course?
No one there was.

(24:06):
What's your name, Lili Mertz?
And how did it happen that youmade this appearance?
Oh, it was down at Benson'sElectronics.
They have this video camera inthe window and when you walk by,
they take your picture.

Ashley (24:27):
Well, Lydia, this may come as a surprise, but that is
how some of our most famouspersonalities started out just
seeing what they looked likeaccidentally we just watched the
extended version of that clipand you can tell that lydia is
captivated by suzanne, and thatis what happens with the real
Lydia and the real Pam Smart.

Remi (24:49):
Suzanne is producing a television documentary for WWEN
called Teens Speak Out.
She's looking for high schoolstudents willing to open up on
camera about things like peerpressure, drugs and rap music.
Eventually, three teens Jimmy,russell and Lydia all agree to
be interviewed by Suzanne and goon to record hundreds of hours

(25:13):
of useless footage together, allwhile Jimmy becomes
increasingly infatuated withSuzanne in the process.
Meanwhile, back at home, larryis ready to settle down, start a
family and build a lifetogether, but Suzanne is
laser-focused on her career andfeels that children would just
get in the way while alsocausing irreversible damage to

(25:35):
her appearance.
Eventually, larry voices hisfrustrations, telling Suzanne
that he feels neglected, alongwith his true feelings that
Suzanne will never excel beyondher current position as a local
weatherwoman.
This moment marks a shift inSuzanne, as she no longer sees
Larry as a partner, but now justanother obstacle standing in

(25:57):
the way of her and her dreams ofbecoming a star.

Ashley (26:01):
Yeah, that's kind of rough, Larry.
She did get to be a weatherwoman rather quickly, so who
knows where she could have gone.

Remi (26:09):
I think Larry wanted more of a stereotypical homemaker
wife, someone who would be athome, tending to the kids and
cooking and doing that sort ofthing.
I think that's what heenvisioned, and Suzanne is just
not that type of woman at all.
Over the following weeks,suzanne starts spending more

(26:30):
one-on-one time with Lydia andeven buys her gifts like perfume
and jewelry to win over theteen's affection.
In time, lydia begins confidingin Suzanne, sharing secrets
she'd never told anyone beforeuntil eventually viewing Suzanne
as her only real friend.
One night, while Larry and hisfather are out of town together,

(26:51):
suzanne invites Lydia and Jimmyover to her house to have a
little fun.
She kicks things off with someerotic music while dancing
provocatively around the twoteens before turning her
attention entirely towards Jimmyand instructs Lydia to take
Walter for a long walk aroundthe block.
By the time she returns,suzanne and Jimmy are having sex

(27:12):
in the upstairs bedroom.
Suzanne and Jimmy'sinappropriate relationship
continues after that night andfrom that point forward they
begin spending more and moretime together until Jimmy is
completely wrapped aroundSuzanne's finger.
One evening the two are parkedin Suzanne's car in the middle
of a rainstorm and Suzannestarts telling Jimmy elaborate

(27:33):
lies about how abusive Larry isand how she wishes she could be
with Jimmy instead.
Jimmy naturally suggests thatshe should just get a divorce.
Jimmy naturally suggests thatshe should just get a divorce,
but Suzanne insists that shewould lose everything, including
her condo, car and Walter, allof which were purchased for
Suzanne by Larry At a loss.

(27:55):
Jimmy opines that a man likeLarry doesn't deserve to live
and Suzanne agrees.
The tone then shiftsdramatically when the song Sweet
Home Alabama comes on the radioand Suzanne shouts I love this
song, then proceeds to crank upthe volume, jump out of the car
and start dancing in the rain asJimmy watches from the front

(28:15):
seat, completely entranced likea loyal stray dog.
More time passes, with Suzannecontinuing to encourage and
manipulate Jimmy during theirsexual encounters to get rid of
Larry so that they can finallybe together.
Under Suzanne's influence,jimmy eventually borrows Lydia's
gun and enlists the help ofRussell to help carry out

(28:37):
Suzanne's plan.
On the night of Larry andSuzanne's one-year wedding
anniversary, the happy couplehost a joyous celebration with
all of their friends and familydown at Moreto's restaurant.
After the party, larry returnshome alone, while Suzanne, as
always, heads down to WWEN todeliver her nightly weather
report live on air.

(28:57):
During the broadcast, jimmy andRussell sneak in through a back
door and ambush Larry, beatinghim repeatedly with a lamp, then
robbing him of any valuables asJimmy holds him at gunpoint.
Finally, after several momentsof uncertain hesitation, jimmy
pulls the trigger, shootingLarry in the head and ending his
life just as Suzanne finishesher live TV segment with the

(29:19):
following send-off and, ifyou'll allow me just a personal
note, a special greeting to myhusband, larry, on this our
first anniversary.

Ashley (29:34):
Good night honey, ooh, that is very ominous, and the
look she gives to the camerasays so much more than her words
.

Remi (29:45):
That same night the police are called and both Suzanne and
Larry's families are informedof the horrific tragedy.
Side note here when Janice hearsthe news of her brother Larry's
death, she faints and in thefollowing scenes her arm is
suddenly in a cast.
This was actually written tothe script after actress Ileana
Douglas broke her thumb whilegoofing around on set with Matt

(30:08):
Dillon.
So Gus Van Sant decided towrite her injury into the film.
As Suzanne and Larry's familiesall gather to mourn the loss of
Larry, suzanne sees this as hertime to shine.
So instead of retreating ingrief, she steps in front of the
cameras almost immediately,speaking to the media and giving
statements, while soaking inevery moment of being in the

(30:31):
spotlight.
Another side note here Van Santoriginally wanted Suzanne to
hand out 8x10 glossy headshotsof herself to the press the same
night as Larry's murder, butthankfully screenwriter Buck
Henry talked him out of it,saying that was a bit too far.
The media frenzy onlyintensifies after Larry's

(30:52):
funeral and with cameras nowpointed squarely at Suzanne, she
abruptly cuts off all contactwith Jimmy Russell and Lydia in
an effort to distance herselfand cover her tracks.

Ashley (31:04):
Oh, I don't think she has to distance herself from
Lydia.
Lydia wasn't involved.
Well, I guess it was her dad'sgun, so never mind.

Remi (31:12):
That plan quickly unravels , however, as soon as Suzanne
learns that the police havealready stopped by WWEN and
confiscated all of her footagefrom Teens Speak Out, which
Suzanne finds quite vexing.
After reviewing the footage,the police zero in on Jimmy and
Russell as the prime suspects inLarry's murder, and they are

(31:33):
both taken into custody shortlyafter.
Concurrently, the police alsouncover the murder weapon after
searching Lydia's home, alongwith a multitude of other
incriminating evidence, all ofwhich is revealed to Jimmy

(31:59):
during his interrogation overthe murder scene.

You boys did everything to leave a business
card.

A Cry in the Dark Trail (32:03):
There's Larry Moreto's blood all over
those shoes you wore.
Yeah and pieces of Larry'sbrains.

He used to beat her up all the time.
He said he was gonna kill her.
I'm sure he did.
We're going to Californiabecause she said I had real
potential on TV because of myvoice Doing what with your voice
Sports, like being a sportsannouncer.
So when did you start bangingher?

(32:33):
It wasn't like that.
What was it like?
It was just, we were.
You were what.
In love.

Ashley (32:53):
Oh, so, so young and naive.
It is really sad how people canmanipulate troubled kids like
this.

Remi (33:01):
And we discussed this before.
Something we've learned throughdoing this podcast is that
teenagers are really, really badat committing crimes and
usually get caught almostimmediately.
Eventually, Jimmy cracksconfessing to everything, so the
police convince Lydia to set upanother meeting with Suzanne

(33:21):
while wearing a wire, leading tothe following encounter.

Is it my imagination, or is that die of
working huh, meeting withSuzanne while wearing a wire,
leading to the followingencounter.
I just figured that Russellwould tell them everything.
So, look, no one's going tobelieve anything Russell or

(33:48):
Jimmy say, and they're just acouple of punks.
They wouldn't be in this deepshit if they kept their mouths
shut.
There's no evidence that we'reinvolved.
I wasn't anywhere near thehouse and if they did find out
anything, you know they'd be introuble, don't you?
You would.
What do you mean?
Well, lydia, if you hadn't gone, got your mother's gun.

(34:09):
Larry would still be alive,wouldn't he?
But you asked me to.
No, I didn't.
No, jimmy didn't, don't youremember that?

Ashley (34:16):
but you asked, jimmy and you, and you told russell no I
must say nicole kidman is doinga really good job here just
playing this diabolical woman,all with a bright, bright smile.

Remi (34:34):
Her character is one of the most evil females I have
seen in films, and Nicole Kidmannails this performance.
She's amazing in this movie.
It's her career best, in myopinion.
Suzanne is inevitably chargedand released on $200,000 bail,
which, of course, only fuels themedia frenzy surrounding her

(34:57):
even further.
In her statement to the press,suzanne alleges that while she
was making her documentary TeensSpeak Out, russell and Jimmy
had started a secretrelationship with her husband
Larry and gotten him addicted tococaine.

Ashley (35:13):
That is completely absurd.

Remi (35:16):
Well, according to Suzanne , when Larry finally tried to
get clean and sober again,russell and Jimmy murdered Larry
to keep him from going to thepolice, which is so far-fetched
and ridiculous.
Like he was getting clean, sohe was going to turn in Russell
and Jimmy for selling himcocaine.
Side note, joyce Maynard, theauthor of the book To Die For,

(35:37):
makes a small cameo in thisscene as Suzanne's lawyer.
According to Maynard, she alsohappened to have her mother's
ashes with her during the shootthat day, so tucked the ashes
into her prop briefcase for thescene, believing that her mother
would have wanted to be a partof the film.
The story then shifts back toSuzanne, once again addressing

(35:57):
the audience directly, standingin front of a plain white
backdrop, calmly wrapping up herversion of the events.
It is then revealed that herentire monologue had been
self-recorded, with Suzanneinterviewing herself on camera
the entire time, while sittingin front of a window which had a
snowy backdrop creating thewhite background.

Ashley (36:18):
Because of course she did.

Remi (36:21):
After finishing the tape, suzanne heads off to a
confidential meeting tonegotiate the supposed financial
terms of an exclusive deal forthe rights to her story.
Accompanied by her dog, walter,she arrives at a remote
location near a frozen lake,where a mysterious man is
already there waiting for her,for her.

(36:46):
The two exchange a few briefpleasantries before the man
tells Suzanne that there'ssomething he wants to show her,
then gently escorts her from thecar down a snowy path and out
across the frozen ice towards asmall, isolated lake house.

Ashley (36:55):
Uh, yeah, I would be running from this meeting.
I would be running so fast andso far away.

Remi (37:01):
There are a ton of warning signs, but Suzanne is just so
blinded by her hunger for famethat she's ignoring all of them.
Side note here the mysteriousman in this scene is played by
David Cronenberg, legendarydirector of the Fly Naked Lunch
and A History of Violence, whois also friends with Gus Van

(37:24):
Sant.

Ashley (37:25):
I have not seen any of those movies.

Remi (37:27):
I think I showed you A History of Violence before, but
you were not really into it,from what I recall.

Ashley (37:34):
Oh, is that with Viggo Mortensen?

Remi (37:36):
Yes, that's the one.

Ashley (37:38):
Okay, I have seen that.
I did like it.
It's just a little slow.

Remi (37:42):
I really enjoy that film.
Recommend for that movie aswell.
The Fly is not really my cup oftea because it's pretty
disgusting and, honestly, so isNaked Lunch.
Cronenberg is kind of known fordoing a lot of weird gross body
horror stuff in his films, so Iprefer his films like A History
of Violence, which don't focuson that as much.

(38:02):
Later that night, Larry'sfather receives a phone call at
his restaurant from the samemysterious man speaking in
untranslated Italian, while inthe background Walter the dog
can be seen barkinguncontrollably from inside the
man's vehicle.
We then return to the lake,where the camera glides slowly
across the ice, revealingSuzanne's lifeless body frozen

(38:26):
just beneath the surface.

Ashley (38:28):
So Larry's family did have mafia ties all along.

Remi (38:33):
That is, the big implication and twist of this
film is that Larry's family didend up being part of the mafia
or at least having connectionsto the mob in some way.
Side note here that final shotof Suzanne under the ice
originally used a dummy, but theice wasn't clear enough and it
didn't look right, so they movedthe shoot into a studio,

(38:55):
applied bluish makeup to NicoleKidman, sprayed her clothing and
hair down with ice crystals andplaced a specially built etched
plexiglass sheet over her whichwas about 30 feet long, so that
the camera had enough room todolly across it.

Ashley (39:11):
Does it look real?

Remi (39:12):
It looks exceptionally real.
I was very surprised to learnthat this was Nicole Kidman
laying there motionless underplexiglass.
I had always assumed it was adummy.
As for the others, jimmy issentenced to life in prison plus
an additional 30 years, whileRussell cut a plea deal and only
got 16 years In the end.

(39:34):
With Suzanne gone, lydia isembraced by the press and
becomes a proverbial mediadarling, appearing regularly on
talk shows and being interviewedby major broadcasters like
Oprah Winfrey and that was GusVan Sant's.
To Die For Any initialreactions, ashley.

Ashley (39:53):
I know I say this pretty frequently about movies I
haven't seen before, but Ireally mean it this time.
I want to watch this movie verybadly.
The clips he showed me weresuper fun and funny and it just
sounds like everyone had a blastfilming this, except maybe
walking Phoenix.
I'm assuming he did.

(40:13):
But he's the only character inthis movie that just kind of
seems like depressed and angstythe whole time, and rightfully
so.
That's his character, but itjust looks and sounds like a
very fun, entertaining,relatively lighthearted given
the subject matter, comedic film.

Remi (40:30):
We have discussed this previously about the possibility
of doing like a movie marathon,you and me, where we watch all
of the films that we've coveredon this podcast that you haven't
seen yet, and then maybe doinga bonus episode where we get
your thoughts and feelings onthem.
So if that's something theaudience is interested in,
please let us know.

(40:51):
I also wanted to say thatduring my research for this,
there were a lot of interviewsthat took place in more recent
times with the cast and crewlooking back on the experience
of making this film, and JoaquinPhoenix was the only one who
never participated in any ofthem.
So I think Joaquin was justkind of off in his own little

(41:11):
world while they were makingthis, but everyone else seemed
to have a really enjoyable timemaking this movie.

Ashley (41:17):
Well, isn't he kind of notorious for not really doing a
lot of media appearances?
I know he has done some inrecent years for movies.
I know, Eddington, he was onthe press tour but we kind of
speculated that that was forcedupon him because of the negative
publicity that he was trying tocome off of for the Joker 2 and

(41:38):
that other movie that he prettymuch tanked by withdrawing.

Remi (41:42):
He is a weird guy from everything that I have learned
about him throughout the years,and it does seem like doing
interviews and that sort ofthing makes him very
uncomfortable.
I even saw a clip of him on theTheo Vaughn podcast and the
first thing that Theo says tohim, joaquin Phoenix responds by
saying that question made mereally uncomfortable.

(42:03):
I really don't know how toproceed from here.
Like what a way to start aninterview.
I just don't think he'scomfortable with that sort of
thing.
But his performance isphenomenal and he is still one
of the best actors working today.

Ashley (42:15):
Even with Eddington, which is getting pretty mixed
reviews from the critics outthere, you can't argue that he
does anything short of what youwould expect Joaquin Phoenix to
do on screen.
He steals the show.

Remi (42:30):
And he is brilliant at playing the types of characters
in this film that are just a bitoff, a bit uncomfortable, a bit
socially awkward.
He's just the master of thatand I think he's probably like
that in real life too.
But yeah, this was one of thefilms that started his journey
into Eddington and Joker and Bois Afraid and all the crazy

(42:50):
movies he still makes today.
What happened with this moviepost-release?
I am very curious to find out.
Can's Film Festival and was metwith widespread critical
acclaim, with Nicole Kidman'sperformance in particular being
hailed as a career-defining role.

Ashley (43:10):
Does out of competition mean it wasn't eligible for any
of the awards?

Remi (43:15):
Exactly, they were just screening it.
They were not trying to winanything.
The film currently holds an 89%approval rating on Rotten
Tomatoes, with a criticalconsensus that reads smart,
funny and thoroughly well-castTo Die For takes a sharp and
sadly present stab at dissectingAmerica's obsession with

(43:36):
celebrity.
Like I mentioned at thebeginning, this was also one of
two films starring Nicole Kidmanreleased that same year, with
the other being the cinematicclassic Batman Forever, directed
by Joel Schumacher.

Ashley (43:48):
Which everyone shits on, but we rewatched it not too
long ago and I gotta say it's areally fun movie.

Remi (43:55):
Batman is my favorite superhero.
I've always been a Batman guyand I have a soft spot for every
single one of the movies, evenBatman and Robin, which I
remember hating when it came out.
I view it all differently nowand they all have their right
place.
And yeah, batman Forever isawesome Don't listen to any
naysayers At the box office ToDie For grossed $21 million in

(44:17):
the US and Canada and $41million worldwide, so not a huge
hit, but I think that'sunderstandable for a film like
this.
Kidman swept multiple BestActress awards, earning honors
from the Boston Society of FilmCritics Critics' Choice Awards,
golden Globes, london FilmCritics Circle, empire Awards

(44:39):
and the Seattle InternationalFilm Festival.
She was also nominated for botha BAFTA and a Saturn Award.
Ileana Douglas received severalnominations for Best Supporting
Actress and took third placewith the National Society of
Film Critics.
Joaquin Phoenix also earned anomination for Best Supporting
Actor at the Clotrudis Awards,which I've never heard of.

(45:03):
However, despite the praise,multiple nominations and a
Golden Globe win, nicole Kidmanwas not nominated for an Oscar.
After the snub, kidman receiveda written note from actor Sean
Penn that simply read you wererobbed.
Kidman later said that Penn'sletter meant just as much to her

(45:24):
as an Oscar nomination, and thetwo later went on to star
together in the 2005 film theInterpreter.

Ashley (45:31):
Well, she gets her Oscars plural later down the
line.

Remi (45:35):
The Academy does not like giving actresses awards for
playing evil characters likethis.
For some reason, it's usuallymore inspirational characters or
women that have just gonethrough a lot of hardships in
their life.
It's very rarely a femme fataleor an evil woman of some sort
like in this film.

(45:55):
Kidman's performance in To DieFor also had a ripple effect
across Hollywood.
Reese Witherspoon said itdirectly inspired her to take on
the role of Tracy Flick in the1999 film Election, and Charlize
Theron cited To Die For as thereason she signed on for the
2011 film Young Adult, and Imust say those actresses are

(46:17):
phenomenal in both of thosefilms and they are two of their
best performances.
Additionally, rosamund Pikeclaimed to have studied Kidman's
performance while preparing forher role in the 2014 film Gone
Girl.

Ashley (46:31):
You can really see the inspiration in Election with
Reese Witherspoon.

Remi (46:37):
I think that's where I noticed it the most and that
came out much closer to the timethat this film was released,
and I really think Reese took alot of inspiration from Nicole's
performance.
Their characters are bothsociopaths in very, very
different ways.
After working together on ToDie For Casey Affleck brought

(46:57):
director Gus Van Sant ascreenplay written by his
brother Ben and Matt Damon.
That script was, of course,good Will Hunting, which became
Van Sant's next film, so in away, damon and Affleck owe their
entire careers to little CaseyAffleck landing his breakout
role in this very film.

Ashley (47:17):
Well, good thing they repaid him by casting him in
that movie as well.

Remi (47:21):
And that was Gus Van Sant's To Die For a film that is
in my top 20 and a career bestfor Nicole Kidman.
However, I do not know a lotabout Pamela Smart, the real
person that this character isbased on, and I think that is
where you come in, Ashley.

Ashley (47:46):
Yes, let's all learn about the legendary media
sensation.
Pamela Ann Voyas was born onAugust 16, 1967 in Coral Gables,
florida, and raised in Miamiwith her two siblings.

(48:08):
When she was in middle school,john and Linda grew concerned
about the rising crime rate andmoved the family to Wynnham, new
Hampshire.
Linda made sure her kids stayedbusy with extracurriculars like
piano, dance and gymnastics.
John, who worked his way up theranks to become a jet pilot for
Delta Airlines who would havethought we'd have two pilots

(48:29):
kicking off season five believedin a strong work ethic and
expected his children to getjobs as soon as they were able.
From a young age, Pam was knownas a natural-born leader,
organizer and center ofattention.
In high school she was acheerleader for the basketball
and football teams, a Spanishtutor on the honor roll and

(48:50):
active in the Students AgainstDrunk Driving Committee.
She was even elected classpresident in the 10th grade,
though that didn't go entirelysmoothly.
School administrators startedto suspect she rigged the
election, skimmed money fromclass funds and drank on school
grounds.
Since these allegations couldhurt her college prospects, the

(49:11):
principal struck a deal with herparents the incident would stay
out of her permanent record ifshe agreed to not run for office
again.
Another thing everyoneremembered about Pam was her
obsession with Van Halen.
For a school talent show, sheand a group of friends dressed
up and lip-synced to Unchained.
To top it off, her senioryearbook quote detailed her goal

(49:34):
of one day dancing with DavidLee Roth.
Pam always fantasized aboutbecoming a TV reporter and the
next Barbara Walters.
In pursuit of this dream, sheenrolled in the communications
program at Florida StateUniversity in 1985.
During winter break she went toa house party and hit it off
with the host, gregory WilliamSmart.

(49:57):
Pam fell hard for Greg andstayed in touch through letters,
long-distance phone calls andValentine's Day and spring break
visits.
Greg, on the other hand, wasn'tlooking for anything serious.
He casually dated other women,at least until the summer of
1986 when he and Pam joined agroup of friends on a trip to

(50:17):
Vermont.
From then on they wereinseparable.
In early 1987, he surprisedeveryone by announcing he was
moving to Florida to be with her.
Though they lived separately,they spent nearly all their free
time together.
Greg worked construction andpicked up other manual labor
jobs.
In between classes.

(50:38):
Pam worked part-time as a clerkfor the Florida Department of
Commerce, accepted an unpaidinternship at a local CBS News
affiliate, hosted a two-hourheavy metal radio show called
Metal Madness on FSU's campusstation and served as the
station's promotions director.
Thanks to her connections, sheoften scored backstage passes to

(51:02):
major concerts.
One of those shows, of course,was Van Halen and led to the
highlight moment of a photo withher, greg and Eddie Van Halen.
Pam and Greg moved in togetherand got engaged in January 1988.
He left the landscapingbusiness to pursue a career in
insurance, a path he knew couldbe more lucrative because his

(51:23):
dad worked in the field.
After Pam graduated cum laudein just three years, he
suggested they move back to NewHampshire.
Unlike Pam, he preferred wintersports to sunny Florida life
and believed he'd have betteropportunities working under his
dad's guidance at MetropolitanLife Insurance.
Pam wasn't ecstatic about themove but after being rejected

(51:47):
from every local news station,she made the difficult decision
to put her career dreams on holdto focus on building a life
with Greg.
That summer she was hired as amedia director for the local
school district.
It wasn't TV news reporting,but it scratched the surface.

Remi (52:05):
You gotta start somewhere.

Ashley (52:07):
She wrote press releases and newsletter features,
purchased media equipment andran workshops teaching high
school students how to use it.
Though she was fresh out ofcollege, she was the ideal hire
Intelligent, energetic, friendlyand eager to learn.
Greg worked flexible hours atMetLife, thrived in his new role

(52:28):
and was even named RookieSalesman of the Year.
By all accounts, he waseasygoing, well-liked, deeply in
love with Pam and very close tohis dad.
Pam and Greg lived with hisparents until they downsized to
a condo in Derry in January 1989.
Pam and Greg rented their ownplace just five minutes away.

(52:49):
They had an extravagant weddingon May 7, 1989, and honeymooned
in Bermuda To outsiders.
They were the perfect coupleYoung, successful and in love.
But, as we know, things aren'talways what they seem.
From the beginning, the Smartswere destined to clash.
They both had strong egos,different interests and enjoyed

(53:13):
being the center of attention.
Despite their differences, theywanted their marriage to work.
They ate out once or twice aweek, hit up all the major clubs
and often went on tripstogether, with and without
friends.
Pam's office was across theparking lot from Winnicunet High
School in Hampton, newHampshire.
To kick off the school year,pam volunteered to co-lead

(53:35):
Project Esteem, a three-day drugand alcohol program designed
for incoming freshmen.
On the first day she met threestudent volunteers.

Remi (53:45):
So was this sort of like a DARE program?

Ashley (53:48):
That's what it sounds like.
It was only for incomingfreshmen and it was short, so I
think it was kind of viewed as aprevention program to try to
discourage new students fromusing drugs and alcohol.
On the first day Pam met threestudent volunteers 16-year-old
Billy Flynn, who is Jimmy in themovie played by Joaquin Phoenix

(54:10):
.
17-year-old Vance JR Lattime,which is Russell, played by
Casey Affleck, and 15 year oldCecilia Pierce, who is Lydia.
The moment Billy saw Pam, heturned to his best friend and
said he was in love.
And he wasn't the only studentdrawn to the energetic 22 year

(54:31):
old.
Plenty of boys flirted with herduring the program.
But Billy made a point toalways end up in her breakout
groups.
During the next three days theybonded over their shared love
of heavy metal, which I'm kindof sad that they didn't
incorporate heavy metal moreinto the movie.
It would have been really funnyto have Nicole Kidman's

(54:51):
character also just be a bigmetalhead who is obsessed with
Van Halen.

Remi (54:55):
Heavy metal is incorporated into the soundtrack
.
When Jimmy first lays eyes onSuzanne when she's coming into
the school, heavy metal music isblaring over the soundtrack.
But I agree, I think that wouldhave been a good thing to add
to give her and Jimmy a bit moreof a connection.

Ashley (55:14):
Their shared interest gave Billy the comfort to open
up about the loss of his father.
Cecilia was also drawn to Pam,but for different reasons.
Shy and insecure, she wasfascinated by this confident,
cool adult who seemed sodifferent from anyone she'd ever
known.
Over the 1989-1990 school year,pam's relationship with Billy

(55:36):
and Cecilia intensified andultimately led to the murder of
24-year-old Greg Smart.
But before we get to that,let's take a closer look at some
of the students central to thisstory.
Many of the kids at WinnicunnetHigh School lived in Seabrook,
a small, low-income communitywith a high unemployment and
dropout rate.
Billy Flynn was one of them.

(55:58):
He was born on March 12, 1974in Southern California.
He grew up in the desert andspent his early years riding
dirt bikes and playing withlitters of Springer Spaniel
puppies his parents occasionallybred, which, I must say, sounds
like a dream childhood.

Remi (56:15):
Sounds pretty adorable, yeah.

Ashley (56:18):
He was shy, quiet and reserved, the kind of kid who
never had many friends.
He also had a creative side.
He loved to doodle and taughthimself how to play guitar.
But Billy's home life was atense one.
His parents argued frequentlymost often about what his mother
, elaine, viewed as harsh,overbearing treatment from Bill

(56:38):
Flynn.
Bill demanded perfection fromhis three kids, but he was the
hardest on Billy.
One story paints a clearpicture.
When Billy was just three yearsold, he offered to help his dad
wash the car.
His only task was to clean theback window, but what should
have been a sweet father-sonmoment turned into a stressful

(57:01):
ordeal as his dad made him washit over and, over and over until
it was completely spotless.
This kid is three.
Come on, dude.

Remi (57:11):
And it is almost impossible to get windows like
that completely spotless.
I mean the angles that you'dneed to get in there like that
completely spotless.

Ashley (57:20):
I mean the angles that you'd need to get in there.
Another example came in thefirst grade, when Billy brought
home a note from school abouthis messy handwriting.
His father responded by forcinghim to rewrite the alphabet and
numbers 1 through 10 again andagain until Billy broke down in
tears.
In September 1986, elaine Flynnfiled for divorce and moved the

(57:40):
kids to New Hampshire to becloser to her family.
Billy was 12 and furious.
He didn't want to leaveCalifornia or his dad.
That Christmas his fathervisited for 10 days.
He seemed like a changed man,more patient, affectionate and
relaxed.
Encouraged by the visit, elaineagreed to let the boys spend

(58:02):
the summer with him inCalifornia.
But that reunion never came.
Billy's dad died in a drunkdriving accident just weeks
later.
Billy started to come out ofhis shell a few years after his
father's death, thanks in largepart to two classmates, jr Latim
and Patrick Pete Randall.
Jr's mobile home was the crew'sgo-to hangout spot.

(58:24):
His parents, vance and Diane,welcomed neighborhood teens like
they were family and owned agood stretch of property where
the kids could run around.
Billy JR and Pete spent most oftheir free time blasting heavy
metal music, working on cars andstealing the occasional radio
from unlocked vehicles aroundtown.

Remi (58:45):
There is a scene in the film where the gang is hanging
out in one of those cargraveyards playing heavy metal
music.
So I wonder if that was anhomage to this if that was an
homage to this.

Ashley (59:01):
It sounded like they had a lot of dumpy cars on the
property and the kids would workto fix them up and do just that
just hang out, listening tomusic, just shooting the shit.
As I previously mentioned,pam's relationships with Billy
and Cecilia didn't end afterProject Esteem wrapped.
Cecilia, who developed aninterest in becoming a news
anchor, became Pam's internwhile Billy dropped by her

(59:22):
office during lunch or studyhall.
In December 1989, cecilia cameacross a flyer for an annual
high school video competitionsponsored by the Florida
Department of Citrus.
The assignment Create acommercial highlighting the
nutritional benefits of orangejuice.
Excited by the idea, ceciliashowed the flyer to Pam and the

(59:45):
two started recruiting.
In the end, only Billy andCecilia's friend Karen signed on
, but the group threw themselvesinto it.
Throughout January 1990, theymet several times a week to film
.
Billy mostly handled the camerawork, but everyone took turns
acting.
Pam even dressed up in a skimpyleopard print outfit to play a

(01:00:07):
cavewoman in one scene.

Remi (01:00:08):
This sounds like me and my friends making movies together
back in high school.

Ashley (01:00:12):
And you will not believe this, but I found the
commercial.
There's a 2020 documentary thatfeatured a lot of Pam's initial
interviews with the press, aswell as a clip from this
commercial, so let's take alisten.

Pamela Smart (01:00:26):
It definitely has a homemade look to it, but that
song is kind of catchy.

Ashley (01:00:49):
Not as cute as.

Remi (01:00:49):
Judith Barsi's orange juice commercial, though who
would have thought we'd everdiscuss orange juice commercials
twice during the course of ourpodcast?

Ashley (01:00:55):
After the filming sessions, Pam often treated the
kids to meals or took them tolocal hangout spots, including
an underage club called Sneakers.

Remi (01:01:04):
There was an underage club in my town called Secrets,
which is very similar sounding.

Ashley (01:01:10):
We had two we had in middle school.
There was one called like the ZDance or something, and it was
just at a rec center.
And then in high school therewas one called the Hoop dance or
something, and it was just at arec center.
And then in high school therewas one called the hoop, which
was actually downtown Portlandand a little more cool.
As production continued, billybegan spending more and more
time in Pam's office, althoughthey didn't win any prize for

(01:01:32):
their commercial efforts.
Pam's relationship with theteens, especially Billy, had
intensified.
The winter months weren't allfun games and orange juice,
though Behind closed doors.
The Smart's marriage began tounravel.
Greg's work schedule often kepthim out late in the evening,
something Pam grew increasinglyfrustrated with.

(01:01:53):
She wanted him to leave theinsurance business altogether,
but he refused because hegenuinely enjoyed the work.
Their differences, which onceseemed manageable, started to
create a divide.
Greg liked golfing, gamblingand four-wheeling, while Pam was
more focused on readingnewspapers and taking classes to

(01:02:14):
further her career.
Greg also drank more heavilythan she did and began going to
parties without her.
Several acquaintances recalledincidents where, after drinking
too much, he spat beer in herface when he grew annoyed of her
complaints.

Remi (01:02:29):
That is inexcusable.

Ashley (01:02:31):
It's insanely disrespectful.
While there's no evidence ofphysical abuse beyond that, some
friends later said they werevaguely aware of arguments after
he returned from nights out.
There were also rumors of adrunken one-night stand in late
December On his part, not hers.
Despite their growing discordthe couple kept up appearances.

(01:02:52):
To most people they lookedhappy.
In February 1990, greg eventalked about wanting to buy a
house and start a family Clearsigns he still saw a future with
Pam.
But her vision was shifting.
She seemed distant and startedcoming home late, often without
explanation.
By March Greg was gettingsuspicious.

(01:03:14):
One night after Pam said shewas working late, he and a
friend decided to investigate.
Her car was not in the parkinglot and she got an earful when
she pulled in 20 minutes later.
In March and April Greg beganmaking quiet comments to friends
about marital issues and hintedat infidelity and possible
divorce.
Those close to the couplebrushed it off, assuming they

(01:03:37):
had just hit a rough patch.
Turns out Greg's suspicionsabout Pam's whereabouts were
spot on.
While working on the orangejuice commercial, pam began
openly venting about herrelationship troubles, going as
far as to accuse Greg of verbaland physical abuse.
As Billy's feelings for Pamdeepened, so too did his hate

(01:03:58):
for her husband.
During the first week ofFebruary 1990, she gave him
several photos of her posing ina bikini and confessed her love
for him to both Billy andCecilia.
Soon after their relationshipturned physical, after their
first kiss on Billy's waterbed,which is so 1990s.

(01:04:20):
Pam openly smooched him in frontof his friends.
When she dropped him off, madeplans for an overnight visit and
dropped a bombshell she wantedGreg dead.
She was adamant.
Divorce wasn't an optionbecause he would take everything

(01:04:40):
, including her beloved shih tzuHalen, and he wouldn't let her
move on.
Blinded by lust, Billyinitially blew off her repeated
talks of murder, later claiminghe thought she was just joking.
But that all changed aroundValentine's Day in 1990.
While Greg was away on a skitrip, pam invited Billy and

(01:05:01):
Cecilia to her condo for theevening.
After watching a movie, pam ledhim upstairs, slipped into new
white lingerie, danced to VanHalen and had sex with the
15-year-old boy.
As she drove him home that nextmorning, she dropped a
devastating bombshell.
As she drove him home that nextmorning, she dropped a
devastating bombshell.
Last night would be the firstand last time they'd have sex,

(01:05:22):
since Greg didn't go away.
Often the heartbroken teenprotested and through tears he
finally agreed to help her carryout the murder of her husband,
since it was the only way theycould be together.
Over the ensuing weeks, pam andBilly exchanged explicit love
notes and had sex all over theplace.
At least a dozen teens heardabout the affair, because Billy

(01:05:45):
enjoyed sharing all the steamydetails with his closest friends
Amidst their secret rendezvous.
Talks of Greg's murder wasnever far from their minds.
Through daily conversations,pam hatched a plan Billy would
kill Greg while she was at aschool board meeting and make it
look like a botched robbery.
In March 1990, billy told Peteand JR about the plot but, like

(01:06:08):
Cecilia, they didn't think hewas serious and refused to get
involved Without warning.
At the end of March, pam toldBilly tonight was the night
Before leaving for one of threeupcoming school board meetings
that she didn't even have toattend.
She told him she'd leave theback door unlocked and wait in
her office until she got word.
The job was done.

(01:06:29):
Billy was completely unprepared.
He had no weapons, no car andmade no effort to get either.
No car and made no effort toget either.
Just after 10 o'clock he brokethe news that Greg was still
alive.
Pam was furious.
She screamed that he didn'tlove her and told him it was
over for good.
The next day Billy kept hisdistance until Cecilia beckoned

(01:06:53):
him to Pam's office where sheapologized for her outburst and
told him he'd have anotherchance in about a month.
About a week later, 18-year-oldRaymond Fowler was at JR's
house visiting his cousin RalphWentz, a friend of JR's who was
staying with him at the time.
Fowler had recently beenreleased from jail after doing a
few months for receiving stolenproperty.

(01:07:14):
He volunteered to help murderGreg in exchange for $1,000 and
all the stolen loot he couldcarry.
Later, when JR gets involved,one of the things he really,

(01:07:35):
really, really wants and doeseventually get is a stereo.

Remi (01:07:39):
Well, that's kind of close .

Ashley (01:07:41):
Fowler also thought it would be better if he did the
killing, since Billy would bethe primary suspect if the
police found out about theaffair.

Remi (01:07:49):
Wow, this guy is really jumping into this.

Ashley (01:07:52):
Well, despite volunteering for the role, he
later testified that he neveractually intended to kill anyone
and just thought the job wasgoing to be a simple
violence-free burglary.
In mid-April 1990, fowler andBilly picked up Pam's car while
she was at her meeting and droveto a drugstore to buy latex
gloves.
They still didn't have anyweapons, since Fowler convinced

(01:08:14):
Billy it would just be best touse whatever knife they found in
the kitchen.
After grabbing their lastsupplies, billy got cold feet
and began purposefully givingFowler inaccurate directions.
Eventually, fowler realized theerror, got directions from a
gas station attendant and pulledinto the condo at 10 o'clock,
only to find that Greg wasalready home.

Remi (01:08:36):
So Billy was trying to literally steer him in the wrong
direction.

Ashley (01:08:40):
Yeah, he gave him the opposite direction, so they
started driving out of town.
And that's when Fowler was likewait, you said the condo was in
Derry.
We're approaching the border.

Remi (01:08:51):
It sounds like Billy really really did not want to go
through with this.

Ashley (01:09:01):
And he is the only person really in this story for
a very, very long time thatcomes across as believably
remorseful and genuinelydistraught and regretful about
what he did.
From the second he gets caught,all the way until he's paroled
the years later.

Remi (01:09:16):
Well, it seems like he was a impressionable teenager that
was being manipulated by anolder woman.

Ashley (01:09:24):
Once again Pam did not take the news well but assured
Billy he had one last chance onMay 1st 1990, six days before
her one-year wedding anniversary.

Remi (01:09:36):
They are getting so many signs to stop and not continue
forward, but Pam will not letthis go.

Ashley (01:09:44):
For reasons that remain not entirely clear, jr and Pete
agreed to help Billy after hissecond failed quote-unquote
attempt on Greg's life.

Remi (01:09:54):
I would hardly call any of these so far an attempt.

Ashley (01:09:58):
Yeah, that's why I put attempt in quotes.
These weren't attempts.
The first time he didn't evenget in the car and go, and the
second time he purposefullybotched it.

Remi (01:10:07):
Yeah, the most he's done so far is taken a car ride.

Ashley (01:10:11):
Later JR and Pete said they agreed to help because they
were worried Billy was going toget caught, didn't think anyone
would actually get hurt andjust wanted some extra cash.
With more people involved, thetimeline for the night fell into
place.
Fowler and JR would wait at thegetaway car JR's grandma's
yellow Chevy Impala while Peteand Billy went inside.

Remi (01:10:34):
That is not a very discreet getaway vehicle.

Ashley (01:10:38):
Pete said he would stab Greg with whatever knife they
could find in the house, whileBilly carried a revolver owned
by JR's dad as backup.
Pam told the boys where shekept her jewelry, or at least
the cheap costume pieces she waswilling to part with,
instructed them to immediatelyput her dog in the basement and
warned them not to get any bloodon her furniture.

Remi (01:11:00):
This woman is ridiculous.

Ashley (01:11:03):
Come late afternoon on May 1st, the four teens bought
scotch tape from a shoppingplaza to cover their fingertips
underneath the leftover latexgloves.
Just in case they passed timeat a pizza parlor, changed into
dark clothing and waited for thesun to go down.
When the moment came, billy andPete entered the apartment,

(01:11:24):
ransacked the place to make itlook like a robbery and waited
near the front door for Greg'sreturn.
As soon as he walked in, petesprang out and attacked the boys
, took turns, assaulting Greg ashe begged for his life.
Then Billy raised the revolverand shot him once in the head.
The two bolted from the scene,running as fast as they could.

(01:11:45):
Back to the getaway car.
The group sped off, tossedtheir clothes out along the way,
examined as fast as they could.
Back to the getaway car.
The group sped off, tossedtheir clothes out along the way,
examined their haul of cheap,worthless costume jewelry and
went their separate ways.
At 10.10 pm on May 1st, pampulled into the garage of her
condo in her silver Hondaadorned with a vanity plate that
read, of course, Halen.

(01:12:05):
She was careful not to touchher husband's body before
sprinting to her neighbor's doorscreaming for help.
The next call was to Greg'sparents, bill and Judy Smart.
The neighbor urged them to comeimmediately because their son
was quote very, very sick.
Law enforcement quickly arrived, secured the scene and took

(01:12:27):
Pam's statement.
The widow appeared shaken upbut noticeably dry-eyed as she
recounted her evening and thegruesome discovery.
She suggested Greg interrupteda burglary and wondered aloud if
she might have forgotten tolock the back door before she
left.
That evening.
At first glance, the state ofthe home supported this theory

(01:12:49):
evening.
At first glance, the state ofthe home supported this theory,
but it didn't explain why Greg'swallet, keys and wedding ring,
in addition to two other rings,were left underneath his body.

Remi (01:12:57):
In the film, larry or Greg refuses to give the robbers his
wedding ring, and that's whatends with them shooting him.

Ashley (01:13:06):
And I think that is accurate.
I saw in a couple places thatthey did ask for Greg's ring,
but he refused to take it off.
The morning after the murder,billy, pete and JR went to
school like any other day.
By the end of it, billy alreadyconfided in another friend
about the crime.
Cecilia, on the other hand, hadno idea what happened the night

(01:13:28):
before, at least until theguidance counselor called her,
billy and JR into her office tobreak the news.
She also confided in aco-worker after school and, like
Billy's friend, they decided itwas best to not get involved.
That same day, pam returned tothe police station for a
follow-up interview.
She firmly denied having anymarital or financial problems

(01:13:51):
and investigators allowed herback into the condo to collect
some essentials and selectburial clothing for Greg.
Despite the gravity of themoment, she seemed oddly
unaffected.
She complained about thefingerprint dust coating her
furniture and when it came timeto choose an outfit for Greg's
burial, she carelessly grabbedthe first mismatched and

(01:14:13):
inappropriate items in hisdrawer until his parents stepped
in.
Greg's wake was held two daysafter his murder.
Pam played the role of agrieving widow, switching from
sobbing one moment to calm, andcollected the next.
Cecilia, billy and JR even madea brief appearance.

(01:14:36):
The most dramatic moment camewhen a dispute broke out over
the casket.
Greg's family wanted it openfor viewing, but Pam refused to
enter the room until they agreedto close it at the end.

Remi (01:14:44):
In the film during Larry's funeral, suzanne takes a
boombox and plays the song Allby Myself as a tribute to her
late husband, which obviouslyLarry's family finds
disrespectful.

Ashley (01:15:00):
Well, when Pam finally did go in to pay her respects,
she threw herself on top of thecasket so hard that it almost
toppled over and sobbeduncontrollably until she was
physically pulled away 15 to 20minutes later.

Remi (01:15:16):
She's making a show of it and going a bit overboard.

Ashley (01:15:20):
Over 200 people attended Greg's funeral, while a crowd
of reporters and photographersgathered across the street.
Despite being advised to nottalk to the press, Pam granted
virtually every interviewrequest that came her way in the
week following her husband'sdeath.
Here's a clip of her firsttelevised interview that she

(01:15:40):
gave just six days after he waskilled, which also happened to
be their one-year weddinganniversary.

I feel like in a whole condominium complex like
ours, somebody must have seen orheard which also happened to be
their one-year weddinganniversary.

Remi (01:15:55):
She didn't shed a single tear in that interview which is

(01:16:20):
also something that NicoleKidman does in the film never
cries for her deceased husband.

Ashley (01:16:27):
And I don't like to chastise someone for how they
react to trauma, becauseeveryone knows by this point
that everyone reacts to thingsdifferently and you're never
going to know how you are goingto act when a situation happens.
But in every interview Iwatched of Pamela Smart from
here on until her last one in2023.

(01:16:49):
She just comes across as sojust cold matter of fact and
detached.

Remi (01:16:55):
Agreed.
There's like no conviction oremotion or empathy or anything
in the way that she looks orsounds at all.
It's literally just blank.

Ashley (01:17:06):
Yeah, even her facial expression.
There's just nothing there.
She's like a robot.

Remi (01:17:11):
It's like she's reading off of cue cards.

Ashley (01:17:14):
In other interviews, pam claimed she wanted the public
to know the truth about Greg andthe investigation, since the
police still seem to beexploring theories involving
drugs or gambling debts.
She stuck to her burglary gonewrong story and even gave
detailed descriptions of thecrime scene and items she
believed were missing.
Investigators pleaded with herto stop and even asked her

(01:17:37):
parents to intervene, but Panwas relentless.
After a week of this behaviorthey made the decision to stop
giving her and her family anyupdates about the investigation.
Throughout May 1990, pan begangiving away or dropping off
Greg's belongings at hisparents' house, typically in
large garbage bags.

(01:17:58):
She took a few days off workand stayed with her parents, but
quickly grew restless andstarted looking for a place of
her own.
Using some of Greg's $140,000life insurance policy, she
bought a new car, rented a condoand returned to life as usual,
including rekindling herrelationship with Billy Flynn.

(01:18:19):
She updated him and Cecilia onthe murder investigation, but
warned Billy not to share anydetails with her.
Meanwhile, the police followedup on every possible lead.
They circulated photos of thestolen jewelry to local pawn
shops, pulled the smarts' phonerecords, compiled a list of
everyone who had been in and outof the house and even

(01:18:42):
interviewed Greg'sex-girlfriends, but nothing led
anywhere.
Nearly everyone they spoke todescribed Greg and Pam as the
picture-perfect couple.
But she did remain on thesuspect list.
And then the case took a turn.
An anonymous caller, lateridentified as 39-year-old Lois
Coleman, phoned with informationabout the murder.

(01:19:04):
Just before making the call,cecilia's co-worker told her the
teenager knew a woman fromDerry who had her husband killed
for life insurance money.
Unlike others who caught windof the crime, lois sprang into
action.
She gave Cecilia's name andsaid she believed the widow in
question had been planning themurder for four or five weeks.

(01:19:25):
Speaking with Celia was now toppriority.
The first interview took placeon May 21, 1990.
She talked about her friendshipwith Pam and admitted to
staying at her house while Gregwas away, but insisted she had
no knowledge of any crime.
It wasn't much, but it wouldhave to do for now.
Investigators now had theirsights set squarely on Pamela

(01:19:49):
Smart.
Ralph Welch JR's friend,temporary housemate and Raymond
Fowler's cousin was working onhis car the afternoon of June
9th when he overheard anotherkid telling Pete that Billy
needed to stop running his mouthabout killing someone.
That night Ralph confronted theboys about the comment.
They denied everything at first, but quickly confessed and told

(01:20:13):
him the full story.
To their surprise, ralph washorrified and wanted to tell
someone right away.
After a physical altercationwith Pete, a visibly shaken
Ralph went to JR's parents andtold them their son used his
father's gun to kill someone.
Dance and Vance Latim were onlyable to piece together that a

(01:20:34):
shooting had occurred, but theycould see how deeply distressed
Ralph was.
They knew something happened.
They just didn't yet grasp theseverity of the situation.
With gun in hand, the Latimswent to the police station the
following day.
Meanwhile Pete and JR rushed toPam's condo to update Billy on
Ralph's reaction.

(01:20:54):
Billy called him and tried tobrush off the confession as a
wild story, but Ralph wasn'tbuying it.
The rest of the day quicklyspiraled.
Pete, jr and Billy briefly fledto Connecticut, but returned
home a few hours later at thebehest of their parents.
Raymond Fowler was the first toshow up at the police station.

(01:21:14):
He waived his right to anattorney and told investigators
everything, though he minimizedhis involvement.
Ralph also told investigatorseverything that he had since
learned.

Ralph (01:21:27):
So they went there and they broke into the place and
they set it up to make it looklike a burglary and I guess the
guy tried to run or somethingand they grabbed him.
They threw his dog in thecellar.
Pete said he held the guy'shead and the dog shot him.

Ashley (01:21:45):
By the end of the evening JR confessed to his
parents that Billy did in factkill Greg Smart.
Hoping to shield their son,they took him to the police
station and asked to speak witha juvenile officer they trusted.
They realized the gravity ofthe situation when their request
was denied and immediatelyhired an attorney.
Billy returned home last.

(01:22:05):
He threw away all the picturesand keepsakes from Pam, while
his mother also reached out tolegal counsel.
By 8 o'clock on June 11, 1990,billy, jr and Pete were all in
police custody.
The next morning Pam startedfrantically calling anyone she
thought might know more aboutthe arrests, including the Derry

(01:22:27):
Police Department, attorneyGeneral's Office and Victim
Advocate Center.
She was contacted by multiplenews outlets but offered little
more than a brief statementexpressing how shocked and
devastated she was by the news.
On June 14th, cecilia finallycame clean about the affair and
murder plot and gave a fulltaped statement.

(01:22:47):
The next afternoon, while thecase against Pam was building,
investigators wanted more andpersuaded her to call Pam on a
tapped line.
During the June 19th phoneconversation, pam didn't
incriminate herself directly,possibly because she suspected
her phone line might bemonitored.
Still, she subtly tried tomanipulate Cecilia into staying

(01:23:10):
quiet and avoiding contact withlaw enforcement.
This conversation raisedeyebrows but wasn't enough to
secure a conviction.
Despite maintaining hercomposure on the phone, pam's
behavior began to strike thoseclose to her as strange.
She frequently expressedsympathy for the arrested teens
and returned to speaking withthe press about the

(01:23:31):
investigation.
She was interviewed by policeagain not long after the wiretap
.
She seemed focused onconvincing them that they had
the wrong suspects, insistingthe boys couldn't have committed
such a brutal crime.
Shortly after, she retained anattorney under the guise that it
was just in case, she decidedto sue the media for libel.

Remi (01:23:52):
That is a bold move trying to stand up for the teenagers
if you are Pamela Smart in thissituation.

Ashley (01:23:59):
She told several people she wanted to go visit them and
even sent Billie's momanonymously like a mixtape of
songs prominently featuring VanHalen that she wanted the mom to
give to Billy.

Remi (01:24:13):
Yeah, all this would come across extremely questionable to
basically anyone.

Ashley (01:24:20):
While wearing a wire.
Cecilia met Pam at her officeon July 12th and 13th.
During both conversations Pammade several incriminating
statements about the affair,acknowledged that the murder was
staged to look like a burglaryand claimed she didn't force
anyone to do anything, all whilecontinuing to pressure Cecilia

(01:24:40):
into secrecy.
The next few weeks wereparticularly difficult for Bill
and Judy Smart.
The next few weeks wereparticularly difficult for Bill
and Judy Smart.
Though they were certain Pamplayed a role in their son's
murder, investigators asked themto maintain the appearance of
normalcy for a little longer.
This meant continuing to speakwith Pam and treat her as their
grieving daughter-in-lawwhenever they crossed paths.

Remi (01:25:04):
I would not be able to do this.
I would be too overcome withemotion.

Ashley (01:25:10):
Finally, on August 1st, pamela Smart was arrested and
charged with first-degree murder, accomplice to first-degree
murder and conspiracy to commitmurder.
A charge of witness tamperingwas added two weeks later.
During the next few months,cecilia gave two interviews for
$1,300 and sold the life ratesto her story to Once Upon a Time

(01:25:33):
Productions for $2,000, with apromise of more if a movie was
ever made.
Meanwhile, despite the growingevidence against all four
defendants, none of the boyswere willing to talk or testify
against each other.
In early January 1991, the DAdropped another bombshell.
Pam was being indicted onanother case for charges of

(01:25:57):
criminal solicitation to commitmurder, criminal solicitation to
commit tampering with a witnessand tampering with a witness.
These new charges stemmed fromallegations that she approached
a fellow inmate in search of ahitman to kill Cecilia.
It was also announced that thethree juvenile defendants would
be tried as adults.

(01:26:18):
A few weeks later, pete, jr andBilly accepted plea deals in
exchange for their testimonyagainst her.
On January 28, 1991, billy andPete were convicted of
second-degree murder andsentenced to life in prison with
the possibility of parole after28 to 40 years.
Jr was convicted as anaccomplice to second-degree

(01:26:40):
murder and sentenced to lifewith the possibility of parole
after 18 to 30 years.
Raymond Fowler was also finallyarrested and charged with
attempted murder, conspiracy tocommit murder and tampering with
physical evidence.
In October 1991, he pled guiltyto conspiracy to murder and
attempted burglary and wassentenced to 30 years with the

(01:27:02):
possibility of parole after 15.
The two-week trial of PamelaSmart began on March 5, 1991.

Remi (01:27:10):
It was only two weeks.
That's surprising consideringthe media circus that was
surrounding it.
The OJ trial was like almost ayear.

Ashley (01:27:19):
And, like you said, it was a media sensation, that is
for sure.
It was covered by news outletsacross the world and, as we
mentioned earlier, became thefirst criminal trial in the
United States to be broadcastedlive on TV.

Remi (01:27:34):
Do you have any idea why this case was the one that was
the first to be allowed ontelevision like this?

Ashley (01:27:42):
I'm not really sure.
If I'm speculating, it'sbecause the media had just some
fascination about it because itwas a young, successful wife who
had a young lover and that wasjust something that captivated
the news outlets and they maybepushed saying that it should be

(01:28:02):
televised because of the mediaand public's right to know
what's going on.
That's just my speculation,though.

Remi (01:28:09):
It's just very interesting that this is the case.
That started all that, becauseit's so mainstream now.

Ashley (01:28:17):
The prosecution called a total of 27 witnesses,
including JR, pete, billy andCecilia.
Pete and JR came across as coldand unemotional as they
described the murder, whileBilly struggled to recount the
events without breaking downThrough tears.
He testified about hisrelationship with Pam and the

(01:28:38):
murder of her husband, saying heonly agreed to carry it out
because he loved her andbelieved her threats about
breaking up with him if hedidn't do what she wanted.
Cecilia corroborated everythinghe said.
In contrast, the defense calledjust four witnesses the 911
dispatcher who took theemergency call, two character

(01:28:59):
witnesses and finally thedefendant herself.
Pam admitted to having a sexualrelationship with Billy but
claimed she ended it a week ortwo before the murder.
According to her, billy wasobsessed and threatened to kill
himself if she broke things off.
She said she didn't tell thepolice about the affair, even

(01:29:20):
after his arrest, because shefeared they would immediately
assume she was involved in thecrime immediately assume she was
involved in the crime.
Throughout her testimony sheinsisted she had nothing to do
with the murder and her lawyersargued the teenagers only
implicated her to savethemselves.
Regarding the wiretaps, sheclaimed she began to suspect
Cecilia knew more than she wasletting on and having been shut

(01:29:43):
out of the investigation.
She was only trying to coax thetruth out of her young friend.

And I told her.
Well, she had said to me thatshe had asked me did I know
about the murder beforehand?
And initially I had said no.
And then she made a statementto me that if I knew more about
it, that as long as I told herthat she wouldn't tell anyone

(01:30:10):
and that we had to sticktogether.
So in my mind I thought that Iwould play a game with her and I
would say that I knew moreabout the murder.

Remi (01:30:21):
Interesting choice of excuse on that.
One Never heard that before.

Ashley (01:30:26):
On March 22, 1991, after 13 hours of deliberation, the
jury found Pamela Smart guiltyon all counts.
She received a mandatorysentence of life in prison
without the possibility ofparole.
Upon hearing the verdict, sheturned to her lawyer and said I
can't believe Billy.

(01:30:46):
First he took Greg's life, nowhe's taking mine.
The separate case involving heralleged attempt to have Cecilia
killed was dropped later thatyear.
Pam was initially housed in theNew Hampshire State Prison for
Women but was transferred in1993 to the Bedford Hills
Correctional Facility for Women,a maximum security facility in

(01:31:08):
Bedford, new York.
The reason for the transferremains unclear.
In 2007, the attorney's generaloffice claimed it was due to
disciplinary issues and whileshe did have 22 write-ups, all
but two were for minorinfractions.
The deputy compactadministrator stated the
transfer was made out of concernthat it would be too easy to

(01:31:31):
break her out of the prison inNew Hampshire.
To this day, no formalinterstate compact document has
been disclosed.
In September 1991, cbs airedMurder in New Hampshire, a
made-for-TV movie starring HelenHunt.
For anyone wondering why we'renot covering that film for this

(01:31:52):
podcast, let's just say the 31%rating on Rotten Tomatoes played
a role in the decision.
Nonetheless, here's a clip fromthe trailer the Florida Citrus
Council is sponsoring thiscontest for the most creative
commercial.

Think about it we get to be outrageous or funny
billy.
Are you in sure great?
Do you ever think about methink?

To Die For Clip (01:32:19):
about you all the time.
I can't stop thinking about youbilly, you're bad the defendant
initiated an affair with withBilly Flynn.

You're telling us that just you and Pam are
spending the night together.
She's crazy about me.

Casey Affleck (01:32:31):
I don't know.
I think it's weird man.
She's like a teacher, he's justa kid.
He hit me.

Remi (01:32:36):
Who is he?
Greg, he hit her.
She's hysterical over there.

A Cry in the Dark Trailer (01:32:39):
I don't know If you need something
bad enough and you?

Ashley (01:32:42):
don't give up.
You can have anything you want.
The trailer actually doesn'tlook that bad.

Remi (01:32:48):
Yes, it does.
I like Helen Hunt and it lookslike this made-for-TV version is
more accurate, but I don't know, man, that did not look great.

Ashley (01:33:00):
For years Pam denied any involvement in the murder and
blamed her conviction on acorrupt investigation and the
way she was portrayed in themedia.
Here's a clip from her firstpost-conviction interview with
Diane Sawyer in 1994.

What happened to Greg is the most horrible thing
I've ever gone through in mylife and I'm still haunted every
day by memories of what musthave happened to him inside our
house before he was killed.
And although I wasn't there, Ifeel that because of that I'll

(01:33:40):
never know how Greg was feelingat the time.
I keep thinking of how afraidhe must have been and how
senseless this whole tragedy was.
A lot of times I still can'teven believe that he's gone.

Remi (01:33:54):
Nicole Kidman is a much better actress than Pamela Smart
is.

Ashley (01:34:00):
Pam also kept close tabs on Billy Flynn, who she saw as
the key to her freedom.
Billy Flynn, who she saw as thekey to her freedom.
In a 2018 interview, sheexplained he's one of the few
people that could actually getme out of here by coming forward
and telling the truth, but he'snever going to do that.
She also wasn't too thrilledwhen all three of her

(01:34:21):
co-defendants were subsequentlygranted parole.

Ralph (01:34:24):
People can feel sorry for them as much as they want to,
they can cry as much as theywant, but nonetheless they went
into my condo, they put myhusband on his knees and they
killed him, while he begged forhis life, and I wasn't there for
that.
They did that.

Remi (01:34:42):
It seems like her story hasn't changed in the several
decades that she's been tellingit, primarily focusing on the
literal events of that night andcompletely ignoring her part in
all of that.

Ashley (01:34:58):
Oh, everyone agrees that this wouldn't have happened if
it wasn't for her.

Remi (01:35:02):
Yes, she orchestrated this .
She manipulated impressionableteens.
This happened because of her.
It wouldn't have happenedotherwise.

Ashley (01:35:12):
To support her ongoing, though ultimately unsuccessful,
appeals, her family created thesporadically published Friends
of Pamela Smart newsletter,which was mailed to her loyal
supporters and, of course,various media outlets was mailed
to her loyal supporters and, ofcourse, various media outlets.
Throughout her incarceration,pam earned three master's
degrees in law, professionalstudies and English literature,

(01:35:43):
as well as a doctorate inministry from Mercy College.
She tutored fellow inmates,sought to establish a peer
counseling program and became amember of the National
Organization for WomenAdvocating for Rights of
Incarcerated Women.
In October 1996, she wasseverely beaten by two inmates
who accused her of snitchingabout their prison relationship.
Both women were convicted ofsecond-degree assault and
transferred to separatefacilities.

(01:36:04):
She unsuccessfully sued theprison, claiming they were
liable for the assault, and thatturned out to be just one of
many legal actions she filedover the years.
In 2003, the National Enquirerpublished photographs of her in
her undergarments.
She was sent to solitaryconfinement for two months after

(01:36:25):
filing a complaint about theincident.

Remi (01:36:28):
Who did she file a complaint about the incident?
Who did?

Ashley (01:36:31):
she file a complaint to the prison?
Yeah, because the photos weretaken of her in prison.
Okay, Her lawsuit claiming thatpunishment was retaliatory was
dismissed.
However, in 2004, she andCaroline Wormus, another
high-profile inmate convicted ofmurder, filed a joint lawsuit

(01:36:51):
alleging sexual harassment andassault by a corrections officer
.
They said the officer coercedthem into posing for the photos,
which were then leaked to theinquirer by his girlfriend.
In 2006, a spokespersonrevealed that the women were
raped by the guard and hadphotos taken of them to ensure
their silence.
The case was settled inNovember 2009 for $24,000, more

(01:37:17):
than half of which went to Pam'slegal fees.
And say what you want about PamSmart, but that's terrible and
I'm glad this lawsuit actuallypanned out.
She should have gotten more.
She was taken advantage of bythe people that were supposed to
protect her.

Remi (01:37:32):
Agreed.
This abuse of power by peoplein that sort of position of
authority is totallyunacceptable.

Ashley (01:37:41):
And sadly, all too common.
There's been so many lawsuitsin the past couple years.

Remi (01:37:46):
Because a lot of times prisoners are ignored,
unfortunately.

Ashley (01:37:51):
Pam filed another lawsuit in 2015 after she was
disciplined for having a plasticnon-serrated cake knife in her
cell back in 2012.
She argued she kept the sameknife for 17 years without issue
and never violated contrabandrules, which, if that's true,
that's disgusting that she had aplastic knife in her cell for

(01:38:11):
17 years without issue and neverviolated contraband rules,
which, if that's true, that'sdisgusting.

Remi (01:38:14):
That she had a plastic knife in her cell for 17 years
yeah, that's not going to gether out of trouble.
The fact that she had it forsuch a long time.
It just means she was breakingthe rules for an incredibly long
amount of time.

Ashley (01:38:22):
She argued that it was never before considered
contraband, so it didn't makesense that it was now In 2019,
she sued again, this timeclaiming the prison violated her
constitutional rights when shewas sent to segregation for 40
days after morphine pills werefound in her cell in 2017.
Pam claimed the pills wereactually tramadol, that the test

(01:38:46):
that revealed they weremorphine was wrong and that she
was allowed to keep tramadol onher person.

Remi (01:38:52):
I don't think prisoners are allowed to keep their
medication on them like that.

Ashley (01:38:57):
Some can, depending on what the medication is.
I couldn't find anything aboutthe outcome of these lawsuits,
but I'm going to go out on alimb here and say they didn't
get very far of these lawsuits.
But I'm going to go out on alimb here and say they didn't
get very far.
In March 2023, the NewHampshire Supreme Court
dismissed Pam's last chance atfreedom when it declined to
reverse a decision from thegovernor denying her clemency

(01:39:19):
petition.

Remi (01:39:20):
So she will be in prison for the rest of her life.

Ashley (01:39:23):
She will die in prison.
Yeah, In support of thatpetition, she made a video
statement acceptingresponsibility for Greg's murder
for the first time.
Well, kind of.

I am older and able to look back on things.
I can see so many errors that Imade and I can see how obscured
my judgment was and howimmature I was.
Looking backwards, you know,I'm such a different person than
I was.
I'm more thoughtful, before youknow, I think things through

(01:39:57):
before I make decisions and lessimpulsive and just more
responsible and mature than Iwas back then.
I mean, 34 years is a very longtime and during that time I've
done a lot of work on myself anda lot of spiritual work and

(01:40:18):
just had a big growth in who Iam and how I deal with things.

Remi (01:40:24):
I'm still not hearing a lot of accountability from
Pamela in this interview here.
It sounds more like what youwould say at a parole hearing
than an interview where you weretaking accountability for your
actions.
She's painting herself in amore positive light, I'm saying.

Ashley (01:40:44):
Even for a parole hearing, this wouldn't be
acceptable.
This video is about four and ahalf minutes long.
You can easily find it onlineand not once does she say Greg
is dead because of me.
She skirts around the issue,highlights all the growth she's
made in prison and just saysthat she's a better person now
because she's been in prison forso long and deserves to be free

(01:41:07):
.

Remi (01:41:15):
That was what came across to me as well was she was really
trying to say she was a changedperson and not the person she
was many years ago, but stillzero accountability.

Ashley (01:41:21):
Well, enough about Pamela Smart, let's talk about
what happened to everyone else.
Raymond Fowler was paroled in2003.
A year later, he was chargedwith a parole violation after a
verbal dispute with hisgirlfriend, but released again
on June 14, 2005.
He planned to live in hisapartment and return to
construction work.
Jr Latim earned his GED inprison and took classes in

(01:41:43):
computer.
Dar Latim earned his GED inprison and took classes in
computer, carpentry andwoodworking.
He was released in 2005 onlifetime parole.
He has since married and foundsteady employment.
I did not know lifetime parolewas a thing either, actually,
it's pretty rare, I think InOregon you have to be sentenced

(01:42:03):
as a dangerous offender, whichis a pretty high bar to reach
have to be sentenced as adangerous offender, which is a
pretty high bar to reach.
So I'm kind of surprised thatthese three juveniles received
that harsh of a supervisionrequirement.
But I do know that now they areall on the lowest form of
supervision so they basicallyjust have to check in once a
year.

Remi (01:42:24):
Wow, all right, so they are basically free at this point
once a year.

Ashley (01:42:30):
Wow, alright, so they are basically free at this point
.
The downside is any sort ofcontact with the police, however
minor, could result in aviolation.

Remi (01:42:34):
That's the downside of being on parole or probation If
you fuck up at all, it is muchmore serious.

Ashley (01:42:43):
Billy Flynn and Pete Randall were incarcerated at
Maine State Prison.
Billy earned his GED, became ajourneyman electrician, mentored
at-risk youth and volunteeredfor many charities, including
Locks of Love and Toys for Tots.
In 2002, he began a pen palrelationship with a woman named
Kelly and the two later married.

(01:43:05):
He was moved to a minimumsecurity facility in July 2014
to participate in a work releaseprogram.
Billy and Pete were released onlifetime parole on June 4, 2015
.
During their parole hearing,they apologized to the Smart
family and agreed not to speakto the media out of respect for
them, a promise they have kept.

(01:43:25):
Cecilia Pierce stayed out ofthe spotlight until 2016, when
she spoke publicly about themurder for the first time in 20
years.
She reportedly earned $10,000from the movie deal I mentioned
earlier, became a registerednurse, co-founded an animal
shelter for hard-to-place dogsand regretted ever meeting

(01:43:46):
Pamela Smart.

Remi (01:43:47):
I'm sure all of theseted ever meeting Pamela Smart.
I'm sure all of these teensregret meeting Pamela Smart.

Ashley (01:43:52):
Greg Smart's parents filed a wrongful death lawsuit
against Pam in August 1991, butI couldn't find any details
about the outcome.
Judy Smart passed away from aneurological disease in 1998.
Those close to her said she wasnever the same after her son's
murder.
Bill Smart died from pancreaticcancer in September 2010.

(01:44:14):
Until the time of his death, heregularly visited his son's
grave and continued to wear hiswedding ring.
And that is the true story ofGus Van Sant's To Die For.

Remi (01:44:26):
The true story and the film are much more similar than
I was anticipating.
In all honesty, however, I amdisappointed that the film
skimmed over the trial and mediastuff.
I mean, it omitted the trialentirely by killing Suzanne in
the end, but the whole thing wasabout her wanting this

(01:44:47):
attention from the press and allof that, and it kind of just
ends once that gets started inthe film, and I think it would
have been interesting to go intothat a bit more as well.
And I have some more thoughts,but I'm gonna save them for my
verdict and our objection of theweek.

Ashley (01:45:05):
What I appreciate about the movie the most, I think, is
the larger commentary that GusVan Sant took about media's
fascination with high-profilecrimes.
That was such a huge aspect ofthe murder of Greg Smart and it
continues to be.

(01:45:26):
This woman has had so manyinterviews.
She has an HBO documentaryabout her that I have not
watched, but it's just about herand her telling her quote
unquote story, which this womanis not believable.
I find it despicable that shestill, in my opinion, to this
day, has not acceptedaccountability for her role in

(01:45:49):
this crime.
As I said earlier, this wouldnot have happened if it wasn't
for her, and even her claim ofaccepting responsibility in 2023
, that was not her acceptingresponsibility.
She glossed over it and neveronce, as I mentioned, said
anything about how she was theprimary person that started this

(01:46:12):
chain of events and action,that she took advantage of
several vulnerable teens andthat what she did was wrong and
unforgivable.
And maybe she should be inprison for the rest of her life
because she played such aprimary role in killing her
husband, and for what?
Her motives still aren't evenreally clear.

Remi (01:46:35):
It does seem like her motives in real life and in the
film were a little different.
They are murkier in the reallife story.
In the film it seems like itwas almost a career move for her
.
It seems like it was almost acareer move for her, but I don't
think.
The real Pamela had her husbandmurdered so she could get the
spotlight.
But once she had it, she didnot shy away from it and she has

(01:47:04):
taken every opportunity to usethe media as her soapbox to
plead her case over and over andover again.
Every single time she has theopportunity.
And I honestly do feel bad forthe teens that got wrapped up in
this whole thing because, fromyour accounts, they didn't want
to do this and she really,really pressured them.
It is a crazy situation for a15-year-old to find himself in.

(01:47:27):
Crazy situation for a15-year-old to find himself in.
He is definitely wrong for whathe did, but I honestly feel
that he is remorseful andgenuinely regrets everything
that happened.

Ashley (01:47:37):
There's been news reports lately about how the
current administration ispushing for harsher sentencing
for juvenile offenders, and Ithink this case really shows
that most people that commitcrimes during adolescence are
rehabilitatable.
There's ample research aboutthe brain development of youth

(01:47:58):
and how drastically differenttheir thought processes are from
adults, and in this case, allfour of these all five, if you
count Cecilia of these teensthat were involved with Pamela
Smart went on to becomeproductive members of society
and really made impressivestrides.

Remi (01:48:17):
As a former troubled teen myself.
I got into trouble back in theday I was on probation.
I was sent to some of thosecrazy wilderness programs.
But I am a completely differentperson today than I was sent to
some of those crazy wildernessprograms.
But I am a completely differentperson today than I was decades
ago.
My reasoning, my logic, myentire way of thinking and going
about life has changed justfrom age and understanding

(01:48:41):
better.
So I sympathize with these kids.
What they did was wrong, but Ido think that it is wrong to say
that a teenager is who thatperson will be forever.

Ashley (01:48:52):
Well, with that, let's transition to our objection of
the week.

Remi (01:48:58):
Your Honor, I object.
And why is that, Mr Reed?
Because it's devastating, to mycase, overruled, good call.

Ashley (01:49:06):
And as a quick reminder, our objection of the week is
the most superfluous change fromthe real story to the on-screen
adaptation.
Remy, why don't you kick thingsoff?

Remi (01:49:19):
Before I do I just want to say I'm really glad we have
incorporated the wordsuperfluous into our description
of our objection of the week ona regular basis at this point.
But my objection for this weekI have two things, and both of
them would have added somethingto the film in my opinion and,
honestly, wouldn't have changedvery much.

(01:49:41):
I will say the one that I amnot going with first, which is
the orange juice commercial.
I think that's something thatcould have been in the film and
I think, in a satirical way, gusVan Sant could have pulled off
that sort of scene and it wouldhave been interesting to see
them collaborating on a projectrather than Suzanne just
recording them all the timedoing their regular things.

(01:50:04):
It would have added more of aconnection between her and the
teens, I feel.

Ashley (01:50:09):
I think the reason it was changed if we're ignoring
the fact that maybe that's howit was depicted in the novel was
probably because it would havebeen a little bit ridiculous to
have a woman who was working fora TV news station to come in
and make an orange juicecommercial.
So it made more sense for themto have it be a documentary.

Remi (01:50:31):
And that is part of the reason why I'm not going with
this.
It would be incredibly silly tosee Nicole Kidman dressed up as
a cave woman trying to make aorange juice commercial with
Joaquin Phoenix and CaseyAffleck, but it would have been
fun to see.
However, the one I'm going withthis week can be summed up in
two words Van Halen.
I understand if this was notincluded because of rights

(01:51:07):
issues or something like that,but I do think that they should
have found some band, some sortof musical connection between
her and Jimmy or Billy in reallife, and it would have added
another layer to it.
In the film she's very, veryfocused on the news and
basically that's it.
That's all she talks about isnews and sometimes pop culture.

(01:51:28):
But that would have added aninteresting side to her, the
fact that she acted this way,dressed this way, but still had
that rock and roll spirit insideof her that connected her and
these teens a bit.
So that is my objection of theweek.

Ashley (01:51:42):
So mine is pretty simple .
In the movie, suzanne has aPomeranian.
In real life, pamela Smart hada Shih Tzu.
I don't know why it wasn't aShih Tzu.
They're both small dogs, justseemed like an odd change.
Maybe they could only get aPomeranian on set that day.
I don't know.
Dog should have been a Shih Tzu.

Remi (01:52:00):
I can understand why they made that change for visual
purposes A Pomeranian is a muchmore floofy dog.
But yeah, I agree, I'm going togive it to you on that one.
I think they could have easilyhad the dog been a Shih Tzu.

Ashley (01:52:15):
And that leads us into our Objection of the Week.

Verdict VO (01:52:19):
At the conclusion of each episode, our hosts will
deliver a verdict based on thefilm's accuracy.
If the film is an honestportrayal of the events, then it
will earn a not guilty verdict.
If the adaptation is mostlyfactual but creative liberties
were taken for the sake ofentertainment, the film will be
declared a mistrial.
But if the film ultimatelystrays too far from the truth,

(01:52:41):
then it will be condemned asguilty and sentenced to a life
behind bars.
Guilty and sentenced to a lifebehind bars.

Ashley (01:52:47):
All right, I'll kick things off.
So I fluctuated back and forthand back and forth throughout
the whole time you were tellingthis story and originally, after
you were done talking about themovie, my verdict was guilty.
But as I was retelling myportion, I warmed up more to
just go with a mistrial.
I warmed up more to just gowith a mistrial.
And the reason I'm going with amistrial even though there is

(01:53:11):
clearly several, several changesthat we have highlighted
already.
So I'm not gonna rehash them.
But the main takeaway is, ifyou watch this movie and you
know the story about PamelaSmart, there is no way you are
not gonna make the connectionand think that this movie is
based on or inspired by anyoneelse other than this woman.

(01:53:31):
In this case, there's a lot ofsimilarities here.
The overall plot and whathappens, of course, taking out
the murder at the end wasobviously based on this woman's
sordid tale.
So for that main reason, I'mgonna go with Mistrial.
What about you?

Remi (01:53:50):
I went into this hoping for Mistrial, knowing that in
real life Pamela Smart is inprison for the rest of her life
and was not killed by the mafialike in the film.
I figured a ton of other stuffwould be different as well, and
I was sort of bracing myself fora guilty verdict.
Yet, as you said, while youwere going over the real story,

(01:54:12):
I was shocked at how much of itlined up.
The structure and framework ofthe real story is in To Die For,
and a lot was changed, like wementioned.
But the true story is stillthere, or at least the essence
of it, and for that I'm going togive To Die For a mistrial as
well.

Ashley (01:54:32):
All right, well, that makes up a little bit for our
disappointing kickoff last weekwith Catch Me, if you Can.

Remi (01:54:39):
Yes, starting things off with a guilty, now a mistrial.
So who knows, maybe our filmtwo weeks from now will get the
highly coveted not guiltyverdict and it's a film I really
don't know much about, and it'sa true story that I don't know
much about.
Ashley, do you want to fill ouraudience in a little bit on
what we will be covering twoweeks from now?

Ashley (01:55:00):
Yes, I am very excited for the case in two weeks
because it is a movie that isstarring the greatest actress
who has ever lived, meryl Streep, and we are going to be talking
about the movie A Cry in theDark, which most people probably
haven't heard of, but I betmost people have heard of the

(01:55:23):
Dingo Ate my Baby case, aboutLindy Chamberlainain, and that
is what the movie is about, andit's set in australia, so it'll
be a completely new experiencefor both of us.

Remi (01:55:35):
I know neither of us have watched this movie, but both of
us love meryl streep I havelistened to a few podcasts about
the tragic real story of whathappened to this woman in
Australia who was accused ofkilling her baby when in
actuality, a dingo took her babyand nobody believed her,
because it sounds like a crazyexcuse and I'm really interested

(01:55:58):
to watch this film with, likeyou said, the greatest actress
of all time, meryl Streep, and avery tragic case.

Ashley (01:56:06):
Yeah, spoiler alert, it is a wrongful conviction case.
I've already started readingthe book that the screenplay is
adapted from and it is justheartbreaking, as I'm seeing how
this couple gets railroaded andthey so far have no idea what's
going on behind the scenes withthe investigation.
So tune in next week for that.

Remi (01:56:29):
We will, of course, as always, be leaving you with part
of the trailer for the film wewill be discussing two weeks
from now, but until then, courtis adjourned.

A Cry in the Dark Trailer (01:56:44):
On a night full of stars, in a
campground full of families,Lindy Chamberlain lived the
nightmare that every motherfears.
God help me God, help me, thebaby, my baby.
And the press found a victim.
Meryl Streep stars in a truestory of a brave mother's trial.

(01:57:07):
She's a witch mother's trial.

She's a witch, you know.

To Die For Clip (01:57:09):
You're crediting me with a perfect
murder.
Someone is definitely out toget us.
Tell me what really happened toyour little sister.

A Cry in the Dark Trail (01:57:15):
Lindy's private life became public
property, her grief became asideshow and her innocence
became a story no one wanted tohear.

I'd like to know more than anyone else what
happened to my baby daughter.

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