May 21, 2024 • 65 mins
Larry Blakeburn was born in Muskogee, Oklahoma, but grew up in a mobile environment as his father prepared for and participated in full-time ministry. He has lived in Oklahoma, Arkansas, Texas, and Tennessee.
He graduated from Greeneville High School, Bethel University, and later earned a Master of Divinity degree at Memphis Theological Seminary. Additionally, he was the first recipient of a Doctor of Ministry degree from MTS. Larry joined the United States Marine Corps in 1968 and served in Vietnam in 1969, where he was awarded the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry.
Larry was ordained on February 18, 1979. He has served five Cumberland Presbyterian churches: Bolivar CP Church, Bolivar, Tennessee, St. Luke CP Church, Ft. Worth, Texas, West Nashville CP Church, Nashville, Tennessee, Dyersburg First CP Church, Dyersburg, Tennessee, and First CP Church of Oak Ridge, Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Dr. Blakeburn was President of Memphis Theological Seminary from 1997-2001.
He has served as commissioner to General Assembly several times. Larry was on the Board of Trustees of Memphis Theological Seminary from 1985-1991. He served nine years on the Board of Trustees of Bethel University. Larry was on the General Assembly Organizational Task Force in 2006 and 2007 to evaluate how our denominational organization and structure work together, and on the General Assembly Evaluation Committee for Memphis Theological Seminary and the Historical Foundation which reported to the 189th meeting of General Assembly. He has been moderator of five different presbyteries and served on the Board of Missions and the Committee on the Ministry in those presbyteries.
His philosophy of ministry revolves around trying to be a pastor for every member of his congregation and not just those who agree with him theologically, politically, and socially. “Every congregation that I have served has been made up of people from a variety of religious traditions and people who are politically and socially diverse. We accept absolutely everybody, but that does not mean that we agree with everybody or that we approve of everything they do. We are all in the process of being saved and we are trying our best to be like Christ.
Adapted from the Cumberland Presbyterian magazine, May 2024.
Music is provided by Pierce Murphy, Caldera Blue.
Source: https://www.freemusicarchive.org/music/Pierce_Murphy/through-the-olive-branches/caldera-blue
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Additional comments: modifications made to shorten and loop song for introduction and closing of podcast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
T.J. (00:03):
Here is the Cumberland Road podcast, and I'm your host,
TJ Malinovsky. The following isa conversation with reverend
doctor Larry Blakeburn, anordained minister serving the
First Cumberland PresbyterianChurch in Oak Ridge, Tennessee.
(00:26):
Larry is a former president ofMemphis Theological Seminary, a
Vietnam veteran. He hasmoderated 5 different
presbyteries. He has served 5different congregations
throughout his ministry.
Larry is one of the 2 currentnominations, the General
(00:47):
Assembly Moderator of theCumberland Presbyterian Church,
and he sat down with me forabout an hour to share his faith
journey. We talk about hisChristian faith growing up, his
understanding of ministry, andreflections of the church in the
21st century. Here is myconversation with Larry
(01:12):
Blakeburn.
Larry, thank you for joining me.My I want to open our
conversation with this question.What early experience can you
recall of encountering God?What's an early faith experience
(01:34):
for you or moment for you?
Larry (01:39):
The first time I really remember experiencing the
presence of God. I was 8 yearsold in Sharon, Tennessee when my
father was in seminary atBethel, and I still to this day
believe I heard God speak to me,call my name. It's kinda like
(02:03):
the Samuel thing. Mhmm. And itwent 3 times, it was 2.
But at that moment, I felt God'spresence. And the rest of that
day, being 8 years old, walkingaround, feeling the presence of
God, it was at that point that Idecided I needed to profess my
faith. And I talked to my fatherabout it, and he thought he he
(02:24):
didn't try to talk me out of it,but he thought I was too young
to do that. But he didn't wannadiscourage me either, so I did.
I bet next Sunday, I wentforward.
I professed my faith. And as Iremembered, I was also I had
thought I was baptized at thattime as well. But really from
(02:45):
that moment on, from 8 years ofage, it had always been in my
mind that that's what I would doas a vocation. God called me
into ministry. Now over theyears, I had a couple of other
things I thought about doing anda couple of other things I did
actually do, but it was alwaysthere.
(03:07):
And then throughout, you know,my childhood and then
adolescence, young adulthood.I've had several very meaningful
encounters. A lot of them formost of us, not maybe you,
church camp where you feel thepresence of God, you're away
from all the distractions, andyou just kinda feel him there
(03:30):
out in nature. And I've hadseveral moments at church camp
like that. And then when I was asenior in high school was when I
came under the care of thepresident of East Tennessee as a
candidate for the ministry.
Yeah. And then went to BethelCollege back then was what it
(03:54):
was called. And I was aministerial student. And I can
tell you about my faith journeyif you want me to keep going on
that topic.
T.J. (04:03):
Yeah. Please.
Larry (04:04):
Of course. Bailed what derailed that whole thing? Well,
when I went to college, Imajored in extracurricular
activities. I had the I Ipledged a fraternity, phi Delta
Sigma, which was ministerialstudents just did that. Then I
was in every play that Bethelput on.
I was in the Bethel Balladeers.I was in student government
(04:26):
association, and I kinda forgotthat the main thing is to keep
the main thing the main thing.
T.J. (04:31):
Mhmm.
Larry (04:32):
And so after 2 years of majoring in extracurricular
activities, Bethel invited menot to come back for a quarter.
It was called academicsuspension. So I said, oh, yeah?
Do that, will you? Well, I'llshow you.
So I joined the marine corps.Well, in in all honesty and
(04:56):
transparency, you know, this wasduring this was 1968, and the
Vietnam war was going on. And alot of people avoided the draft
by going to Canada. Well, Iavoided the draft by joining the
marine corps. And, yeah, andthey sent me to Vietnam.
Now this is where the twistcomes in. After Vietnam, and
(05:23):
when I came back, when I wentinto the marine corps, I was a
ministerial candidate. When Igot out of the marine corps, I
wasn't. And the reason was andit wasn't that I ever stopped
believing. I always believed.
It was, oh, you know, HoraceBushnell, a pioneer Christian
(05:45):
educator, said it's the purposeof Christian education to train
a child in such a way that theywill never know themselves to be
anything other than a Christian.Mhmm. Well, that's me. I've
always been a Christian. Well,when I came back, it was like I
told God, I I can't do this.
After doing the things that I'vedone, after seeing the things
(06:06):
that I've seen, I'm not worthyto stand in a pulpit and preach
to anybody. And that was andstill is true. Well, eventually,
I I did a couple of otherthings. I was in a professional
acting company for a while, andthen, finally, Paul Brown was
(06:29):
the one who actually got me togo back to Bethel. And I went
back, and Bob Prosser was thepastor of the McKinsey church at
that time.
And then, really, by the time mysenior year rolled around, I
discovered what the grace of Godwas really all about and what
the cross of Christ and hisblood washing away all my sin,
(06:55):
what that really mean. Becausebefore the marine corps, I
thought I deserved to go toheaven. I was kind of naive, but
I was really a good kid. Well,afterwards, I knew I didn't
deserve to go to heaven, but itwas like God called me in my
senior year. I felt the call.
I felt God saying, I want you togo into the ministry. And I
(07:18):
said, no. I can't do that. AndGod said, well, why not? And I
said, you know why not.
I'm not worthy to do that. Andit was like God said, okay,
Larry. And he did this to BobProsser and some of the
professors that helped me walkedme through this. He said, okay.
(07:40):
I want you to build the Bible,and I want you to show me one
person that I've used in therethat deserve to be used.
You showed me just one personwho was sinless. Well, there's
only 1, and you're not Jesus. Soyou can't use that as an excuse.
And so it was at that point, andit was really like this huge
(08:00):
weight was lifted from me. Andso I did.
I came back under the care ofthe presbytery of East
Tennessee, and I guess the restis history. But because of that,
profound sense of unworthiness,I am very open to others who are
(08:23):
not worthy of being used asministers, and yet God still
somehow working through ourimperfections, working through
our sin, and yet touching andblessing the lives of others. It
keeps me from being in any wayjudgmental or or prideful
(08:45):
because I know I have no rightto be the one. And so it in a
way, it was a difficultexperience for me, but I think
for my spiritual development, itwas an important period of time
Mhmm. For me.
So that's kind of my spiritualjourney.
T.J. (09:09):
Alright. You've given me a lot to unpack. We'll see how
much how much, you would like totouch on. So, you're talking
about extracurricular activitiesas a degree. What was your
mindset then?
Were you going to do sports likein, you know, an academic
(09:29):
setting? What what were you whatwas the plan?
Larry (09:33):
Oh, the plan was in order to become a minister, you have
to get an undergraduate degreeand a graduate degree. So I'm
just gonna get the degree. Itreally wasn't about knowledge.
It was really about I'm gonnaenjoy freedom. I'm gonna enjoy
this this time.
(09:55):
And okay. Here's an interestingthing from my perspective. When
I went back the second timeafter the marine corps
T.J. (10:05):
Mhmm.
Larry (10:07):
I was still involved in all of the same things. I was in
every play they put on. I wasended up being president if I
dealt the sigma. I was vicepresident of the student
government association. Thedifference the second time,
priorities and discipline, whereI was going back to get an
(10:28):
education, not to get a degree.
That one the focal point was togain as much knowledge as I
could. And so it was academicsfirst and all the
extracurricular activities, 2nd,3rd, 4th, and 5th. Before it was
extracurricular first, academicslast. If I had any time for it,
(10:50):
I'd study, which usually meant Ididn't have any time for it. I
was just having a good time.
And I did I think I did verywell when I went back the second
time. But that is what one ofthe things, when I talk to
graduates before they go toschool is your question. Why are
(11:14):
you doing this? What's gonna beyour top priority? Where are you
gonna spend your time?
And it's important to decidesometimes in that 1st year, it's
not good to be distracted with alot of extracurricular. You may
do 1, but don't get overwhelmedwith other things. Because most
(11:37):
people when we first go, we'renot quite mature enough to
handle Yeah. All of that.
T.J. (11:43):
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Larry (11:44):
Later in life, we learn how to to balance and discipline
ourselves in a slightly betterway. But, no, it wasn't
academics. I wasn't at allinterested in that. My brother,
Mark, was a year younger. He wasvery interested in academics.
He did really well.
T.J. (12:03):
Yeah. Speaking of family, what was the family reaction
when you acknowledged the callinto the ordained ministry?
Because you your your father wasan ordained minister in the
Cumberland Presbyterian Church.Was it was it, full of,
jubilation and joy? Or it waslike, may I try to talk you out
(12:27):
of that?
Ministry is a tough go. So whatwas the response?
Larry (12:33):
That's another great question. My father is and I
have such great admiration, andhe's one of the reasons I went
in the ministry. It's acombination of the 2. I think he
was proud, he was excited that Iwas doing it, but he wanted to
(12:54):
make sure I wasn't doing itbecause of him.
T.J. (12:57):
Mhmm.
Larry (12:57):
That to call when I wanna be like dad, So I'm gonna go
into ministry. And also talkingabout because it is difficult
being a minister, and he didtalk about all of that. And, you
know, obviously, I came I'm I'mnot doing it because of my
(13:19):
father. But because of myfather, I felt very comfortable
doing it. Mhmm.
Mhmm. Because I respected him somuch. So it was a little
combination of the 2. Not, oh,boy. I can't wait or, oh, don't
do that.
It was, let let's think aboutit. We'll pray about it. And you
(13:42):
have time, and that's what thecandidacy that that whole
process, that's why it's there,to help us kinda walk through is
this really what we wanna do?Are we doing it because of
parents' pressure or theirchurch's pressure? Or are we
doing it because we genuinelyfeel a call
T.J. (14:01):
Mhmm.
Larry (14:01):
From God and I genuinely felt a call from God.
T.J. (14:05):
It is certainly a time of exploration. This is your time
to explore inwardly, outwardly,gather responses, practice
ministry. It's for those who arethinking about it and for those
who are in, as a candidate. Soakit up as much as you can. I took
(14:27):
a different approach.
I couldn't get through fastenough. But I started so early
that it was still a long processjust because of my age of of
when I became a candidate. Butlooking back, those are good
opportunities to take your time,seek out opportunities to serve,
(14:51):
observe, because you you gain somuch, from the experience and
the education. The educationisn't just academics. The
education also comes from thepeople that you were serving
with and 2.
Larry (15:10):
Yeah. It's amazing how much individual churches that I
have served have formed who I amnow spiritually. Because I was
raised yeah. I don't know quitehow to put this.
T.J. (15:31):
Bluntly. Bluntly. Put it bluntly. Yeah.
Larry (15:35):
I I hate to. Really, my first church in terms of actual
evangelism, My first churchtaught me more than anything
else that I've been through inhow to share my faith. I hadn't
been with a congregation likethat, you know, really through
(15:58):
my entire life and what theyteach you in seminary at the
time really didn't deal with it.Mhmm. And they dealt with it
very openly, very warmly, in avery positive way, evangelism
explosion, lay witness mission,training you how to share your
faith, how to share the gospel.
And I've never been around anyof that. And and as a matter of
(16:24):
fact, because of that, well, notbecause of that, but where the
church was located in FortWorth, the community just grew
up around us, and the churchgrew. Well, it outgrew my
ability to lead. And that's whatprompted me to go back back to
school and to work on thedoctorate. And the original
(16:47):
thought was to do it inevangelism at Fuller.
But j David Hester, who I thinkgraduated from 4, he was a
president of Memphis TheologicalSeminary at the time, Talked me
into going to our seminary. Butthat was it. It did outgrown my
ability to lead. I didn't quiteknow how to do it.
T.J. (17:08):
Well, that takes a level of humility to be able to go,
woah, this growth, this ministrythat I'm a part of expands
beyond my understanding or or myabilities, and I need to educate
myself. There have been and areand probably will be places in
(17:30):
my own ministry where I willpush that small voice away
because of my ego or or toimpress somebody, whatever it
may be. But you were solidenough to go, I need more
guidance on this, and I I'mgoing to continue to prepare
myself for whatever ministrybrings. It takes a big person to
(17:53):
be able to do that.
Larry (17:55):
One of the things in that at Saint Luke and Fort Worth,
they encouraged me and paid forme to go to at least 1 and they
encouraged 2 workshops,seminars. Mhmm. And those were
extremely helpful, in eventslike, breaking the 200 barrier
(18:16):
in evangelism, but that wasn'tthe only we had several
different and I wish morechurches would do that, Pay for
and encourage our pastors forcontinuing education, for
workshops, for seminars, to helpenrich their ministry. And it
was one of those, and I may havementioned this to you, because
(18:39):
you mentioned and I don't knowif you said you like the outline
I put in the bulletin, but,yeah, you you commented on the
fact to remember that I put anoutline of the sermon in the
bulletin. Well, I got that fromone of the seminars, and I heard
John Maxwell, who has passedwith that time Skyline Wesleyan
(18:59):
Church.
He was one of the best speakersI have ever heard, and he didn't
preach behind a pulpit. And hehad an outline of his message,
his sermon. Now he had blanks inthe outline, so he had to listen
and fill in the blanks Okay.That he went through. So I said,
because I was so impressed withhow he preached, I said, I'm
(19:19):
gonna try that.
Holy smoke is that scary whenyou first do it, getting away
from your manuscript, gettingaway from the pulpit Mhmm.
Printing an outline so everybodyknows where you're supposed to
be going, so you better knowwhere you're going. That was it
it took me a little there was aperiod of adjustment there.
T.J. (19:41):
Mhmm.
Larry (19:42):
But I really like the freedom that it's given me. I
don't stay behind the pulpit.Mhmm. And it's like I am I'm not
preaching at them or to them.I'm just talking with them.
T.J. (19:56):
Mhmm.
Larry (19:56):
I'm just sharing. And most people not everybody likes
it, by the way. Me being notbehind the pulpit. There are
those who'd rather I'd staythere. Most people I think are
okay with it Just abouteverybody likes the outline.
T.J. (20:12):
Mhmm.
Larry (20:13):
And I've had several people say they take them home,
and they would use it to remindthem of what I was talking
about. Now we video it, and it'son YouTube. But they will use
it, and they will share it. Notall of them because some of them
aren't worth looking at, butthere are some of them that they
will then share with otherpeople.
T.J. (20:33):
Yeah.
Larry (20:34):
So I've kind of been encouraged by that part, but all
of that came out of didn't comeout of seminary because they do
not teach that in seminary. Italked to Mary Lynn Hudson about
that, matter of fact, what shethought about it. She wasn't
that crazy about it. Did notreally respect her and her
(20:55):
opinion.
T.J. (20:57):
Well, for our listeners, for context, as, I had reached
out to you, we we had talked andjust in our casual conversation
and in preparation for thisconversation, you were at one of
the churches that I grew up inand that was one of the things
that I recalled is the churchhad a bulletin at the time and
(21:20):
then the bulletin insert wasyour sermon outline. And I was
I've remembered that. I don'tremember a specific sermon
outline, but I remember the Iremember the practice. And there
was a point in my ministry whereI had tried that. You know, I've
tried note cards, memorization,manuscripts, outlines,
(21:42):
conversational.
You know, just over the youknow, from teenage years to
middle age years, it's good wehave to find your preaching
voice. And then visit visitsome, you know, over the course
of your ministry, visitdifferent techniques and revisit
different techniques to see whatfits for you, what fits for that
(22:03):
specific sermon, and thecongregation or the listeners.
So I do remember that, and itwas an expectation within the
bulletin as you open it up. Atminimum, it became a preview for
the listener in the pew of,like, where are we going? What
are we going to talk about?
(22:24):
And you could even see the pointof arrival vaguely see the point
of arrival. Now, I mean, there'spros and cons to that. One is,
depending on the listener'sframe of mind is, I'm not
plugging in because I'm notinterested in this particular
theme or text or whatever. Orthe opposite of that is, wow,
based upon the outline, this isspeaking to where I currently
(22:48):
am. And you're able to tone outall the different distractions
and lean in to where the messageis taking.
So it's a worthwhile practice.It's worthwhile at minimum that
I still remember that you didthat way back in my teenage
years? And it's good to hearthat it is still something that
(23:09):
you use now.
Larry (23:12):
It's interesting. I'm a visual learner Mhmm. And those
who are visual love the outline.Educators, Almost we have a a
lot of teachers in, well, justabout every church I've had, but
the one I'm in now, teachersreally like it. But a point you
(23:33):
made, and I've made this pointin the sermon, not every sermon
is for everybody.
T.J. (23:39):
Right.
Larry (23:40):
I want it to touch everybody, but there are gonna
be times when, yeah, you look atthe outline and go, okay, like
this Sunday I'm gonna be talkingreally to graduates. Well, most
of my congregation are older.They you know, they're they're
gonna go, yeah, yeah, I knowabout all of that. And it it's
not so about 90% of themprobably not gonna get a whole
(24:01):
lot out of this one, but I thinkgraduates, I think they will.
Right?
I'm praying
T.J. (24:07):
Mhmm.
Larry (24:08):
That they will anyway.
T.J. (24:09):
Yeah. Because of the stage of their life.
Larry (24:12):
Yeah.
T.J. (24:12):
Yeah. This is a new season.
Larry (24:15):
Yeah. A great start. Yeah. Gosh. It's a big
transition Mhmm.
For most people. It was for me.
T.J. (24:23):
Well, hey, speaking
Larry (24:24):
I didn't handle that well, but hey, you know.
T.J. (24:27):
Yeah. Speaking of transitions, what a transition
from the academic world in thelate sixties to the marines to
the military. What made you makethat life choice in a Cali right
(24:47):
in the middle of the conflict inVietnam.
Larry (24:53):
Yeah. And this is interesting for me too. And it
was basically as I said before,I didn't wanna be drafted. I
wanted to pick the branch ofservice. And, initially, all I
wanted to do, I would I justwent to the recruiting station,
(25:16):
and they had a place there forarmy, navy, marines.
And I really wanted to go intothe navy, but the only one that
would give me 2 years besidesthe army was the marine corps.
And so that's when now here'sthe interesting part of that. A
(25:37):
couple of things. 1, I didn'tknow if they sent me to Vietnam,
I don't believe in the taking ofhuman life. I I just don't.
And now I'm even moreconservative on that than I was
then. I didn't know if I couldkill anybody. Seriously. I said,
(25:57):
they'll send me over there, andI'm gonna be worthless. Well, I
still when I got there, youdiscover, your capacity for self
preservation is pretty strong,and I figured out I could.
(26:18):
I never had to. I think it wouldhave done a lot of damage to me
emotionally, psychologically ifI did. But where I was with
artillery battery, it was alldefensive. And I was in
administration, I didn't go outon many patrols at all, just a
(26:39):
few. And we were alwaysinstructed don't fire unless
you're fired upon.
And and for and we had a coupleof occasions where we
encountered them, theyencountered us, but no fire was
exchanged. So I am grateful forthat part of it. Another
interesting part, when I gotback my brother Mark is a year
(27:01):
younger. He and most of myfriends were protesting the war
while I was in the war. And mybrother asked me when I got
back, did it bother does itbother you that I protested the
war?
And I said, good heavens, no.Look. A part of that is that's
one of the reasons you defendthe freedom of people to have
(27:23):
freedom of expression. But Isaid, well, there are a lot of
us who weren't crazy about beingthere either
T.J. (27:28):
Mhmm.
Larry (27:28):
And weren't really you know, what's the point of this?
It was I remember one time,we're sitting there, and and we
got a lot of incoming becausewe're with artillery battery.
And and the last 3 days werereally brutal, and I got a
(27:50):
Vietnamese cross a gallantry fornot dying. But I remember and
there were 3 days, really baddays, and and when we first
started it on red alert, we'relined up, and I'm looking at all
of us are, like, 18 to 21 yearsof age. And I said, this is
stupid.
(28:10):
Unbelievable waste of human lifebecause we're not all gonna make
it out of this. And and theydid. We we didn't. They didn't
make all of us didn't make itout of it. Another interesting
thing, I didn't tell anybody Ithat Vietnamese cross a gallery
for 20 years, and I figured outit was survivor's guilt.
(28:35):
I felt guilty about survivingwhen they didn't make it. That's
it. You know, the ones who needthe award, the medal for those
who didn't make it. Now I see itmore if I tell people about it.
It's it's in honor of those whodid sacrifice their lives at
that point.
(28:56):
And so I don't feel guilty abouthaving it, although I still
didn't do anything. Right. But Ijust didn't die. Didn't didn't
get killed. But that was and andmy father made it somebody told
me about this, and I can'trecall the story exactly.
(29:17):
Stan Wood, I think, is the onewho may have told me about it.
It was at CPYC, and daddy, myfather, was preaching. And I
think Paul Brown was there, andPaul, you know, so liberal, and
he was in very dramatic. He wastalking about the horrors of
war, and he acted out peoplefalling down and dying and how
(29:39):
horrible it was. And my fatherin his sermon made the comment
because I was in Vietnam at thattime.
And he said, I have one son inVietnam. I have another son
protesting the war in Vietnam,and you're asking me to choose
between the 2. He said, I can'tdo it. I love both sides. And
(30:03):
that was one of the things Idon't think they were crazy
about me making that choice.
I'm joining the marine corps.But they always supported the
decisions their children made.Mhmm. Mhmm. Whether they agreed
with those decisions or not,they respected our opinion.
(30:25):
They respected enough not to putus down, then integrate us to
say that was the dumbest thingyou've ever done. Although they
may have thought that, but theydid they did not say that. And
that's one of the things thatthere are so many things that I
(30:45):
respect about my parents, butthat's one of them.
T.J. (30:49):
It's interesting to, revisit this part with you
because if we go back in timewhen you were at the West
Nashville church, I'm about theage that, you would have been in
Vietnam, you know, after becauseyou were still at my home church
(31:12):
even after my graduation. And soduring that time period, every
once in a while, you wouldmention something in the sermon
or just in casual conversation.But when asked directly I can
remember this. You You wouldpush back a little bit, kindly,
but push back, you know, justanswer the question, but not
(31:33):
much detail. And now, fastforward a few years later,
several years later.
And, it's a very differentconversation about your
experience in Vietnam. That'skinda neat.
Larry (31:47):
Takes time to process that.
T.J. (31:50):
Mhmm.
Larry (31:51):
And I think difficult times in anyone's life,
traumatic experiences, It takestime before you're able to
really process it and talk aboutit Mhmm. And feel comfortable.
That kind of experience, somepeople never get comfortable
(32:14):
talking about, and it depends.Some people, what they go
through is a whole lot worsethan what I went through.
T.J. (32:22):
Mhmm.
Larry (32:22):
And you you don't wanna think about it. You just really
don't wanna talk about it. LikeI said, that's true with, a lot
of traumatic experiences.
T.J. (32:38):
Well, to add variety to your rich life, somehow, I had
to jot this one down. Soextracurricular activities as a
degree, the marines, service inVietnam. And then you mentioned
professional acting company.
Larry (32:56):
Yeah. Okay. So I
T.J. (32:58):
didn't know this about you. Tell me the about this part
of your life.
Larry (33:02):
Well, when I have always been involved in drama in high
school and in college well, inin high school, it and this was
my father took to GreenvilleCumberbatch Community Church,
Greenville, Tennessee in themiddle of my senior year. I
(33:24):
spent three and a half years atWhite Station in Memphis and
then went to Greenville for 6months and got my high school
diploma from Greenville. But,anyway, I was in the senior I've
been in 2 senior plays. 1 1 inWhite Station in Memphis and one
in Greenville. When I got out ofthe marine corps, went back to
(33:46):
Greenville, the girl who playedopposite me in Pygmalion was in
this professional actingcompany.
And she said, you ought to comeup and audition because I was I
dropped out of the ministry. Iwas kind of just floundering
around. So I did went up, and itstarted out doing musical revues
(34:07):
in the summer at a resort. Itwas in East Tennessee, then went
to it was Old West DinnerTheatre in Kingsport and did
that for about a year and didmusicals mostly. Yeah.
Went in that yeah. I know.Right?
T.J. (34:29):
I'm having trouble picturing this. That's all.
Larry (34:32):
Oh, oh, gosh. I should show you a picture of me back in
those days. You didn't havetrouble with that one too. Where
okay. Because of thatexperience, it makes it a little
easier to get away from themanuscript and not stay behind a
pulpit because I'm used tostanding in front of people
memorizing a script.
So, I mean, it wasn't foreign tome, but it's different when it's
(34:57):
your material, and you're notmemorizing somebody else's
material because then it's verypersonal. And I tell them that,
and I've started doing that alot more often lately. I'm
sharing my faith with you. Youdon't have to agree with me. Me.
I just want if if if nothingelse just caused you to
(35:18):
reevaluate your faith, but youbelieve, drive you to go back to
the Bible and say, okay. Why didhe say that? Do I really agree
with it? Mhmm. And I said, I'min I'm not infallible.
So Just respect what I say, andI'll respect how you receive it.
T.J. (35:37):
Mhmm.
Larry (35:39):
But, yeah, professional acting company was fun.
T.J. (35:43):
Well, kinda walk me through the transition from the
professional acting company andhow you revisited, the ministry
again? Was it reentering schooland then ministry, or was it
kinda revisiting ministry andnow I gotta go back to school?
Larry (36:03):
Oh, no. It was go back to school. And it really when it
went back, I was really thinkingabout being a social worker. I
still wanted to be with people,helping people. And that really
was a focus even though Englishwas still I finally kinda
(36:25):
focused on that as a major, but,I really still, like I said, it
took me time to processeverything and to feel God's
grace and call and to give intothat call.
And it was after I was back atschool, as I said, through the
(36:47):
influence of Bob Prosser, thepastor of some 2 or 3 of the
professors there at Bethel, thatI was able to not just hear, but
to respond positively to thecall to go into ministry. But
even then at first, I wasn'tsure exactly what type. I'd
(37:09):
always been pastoral ministry,but then I started exploring
other things before settling onthe pastoral ministry. But then
once I settled on that, Ithought that's probably what I'd
do forever.
T.J. (37:24):
Mhmm. And and you did for a long time.
Larry (37:26):
Well, deviated from it when I went to this seminary.
T.J. (37:34):
Yeah. Yeah.
Larry (37:35):
But that from West Nashville. Yeah. And the West
Nashville Church went to MemphisTheological Seminary.
T.J. (37:41):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I graduated high school. You were
still at West Nashville. Yourejoiced.
We got rid of them.
Larry (37:52):
And then
T.J. (37:53):
and then fast
Larry (37:54):
forward that they know.
T.J. (37:55):
Fast forward, 4 might have been 5 years. Then you were the
president of Memphis TheologicalSeminary. I was a student.
Larry (38:10):
Yeah. Amazing.
T.J. (38:13):
How long were you there? I don't remember. There there was
a lot of turnover. I don't meanthis in a bad way, but there was
a lot of turnover when I was astudent both at Bethel and at
Memphis Theological Seminary
Larry (38:24):
in terms of, leadership. Yeah. I was there 4 years.
T.J. (38:29):
Okay.
Larry (38:29):
And then, after we there was an individual who was there
for 1 year.
T.J. (38:35):
Mhmm.
Larry (38:36):
And I've forgotten his name. Yeah. We wouldn't come a
Presbyterian, and he tried totake us in a direction that the
seminary didn't wanna go. Andthen move from that to the one I
wanted to take the positionafter I left was the one who did
take it after that, what I'mcalling an interim presidency,
(38:59):
with Jay, your heart, Brown.
T.J. (39:05):
I came up, before, Bethel, now University, and then Memphis
Theological Seminary. I thinkduring my time in both of those
institutions, they were goingthrough some transition. And I
want to say I had a differentpresident every year or almost
every year in in both of thoseinstitutions.
Larry (39:27):
Goodness. That's terrible. That's well, that's
not the easiest thing to do.Good to have continuity. It's
T.J. (39:38):
No. No. It was probably, my, social and academic conduct.
Larry (39:48):
Yeah. I understand both of those things. I have had a
met familiarity with thosethings, as a matter of fact.
T.J. (39:59):
Well, Larry, you were nominated by Presbytery of East
Tennessee for the office ofmoderator of the general
assembly. Why in the world didyou say yes to the nomination?
Larry (40:20):
Temporary insanity. That's interesting that Tom
Campbell came up to me at themeeting of presbytery, and he
said, can I place your name innomination and for moderator
general assembly? And I said, Iguess. So I didn't have any
warning, and I did question thatafter he did it because now
(40:47):
being moderator, I've beennominated before.
T.J. (40:49):
Oh, really? Okay.
Larry (40:51):
And obviously wasn't elected, an elder was. Mhmm. And
I was really excited that he waselected, really disappointed
that I wasn't because I ain'tlosing. Nobody likes the blues.
But he was the right person atthat time.
I had no problem, but not beingmoderator of the general
assembly. But it's a a reallygreat honor to be moderator of
(41:20):
the general assembly, but withthat honor comes a great
responsibility. Not just tomoderate at one meeting, but to
represent the church over thenext 12 months. And I don't know
if I'm the right person for thejob or not and I'm hoping God
will direct whoever needs to bein that position. Our church, as
(41:40):
you were mentioning over thelast several years, we are very
fragile right now in a delicateposition, and we need somebody
who can help unify, hold ustogether to really promote the
peace, unity, and purity of thechurch.
(42:02):
And I would like to think I'mthat type of person, but maybe
not. Maybe I'm not the person todo that. I can get animated,
which I'm sure you know. I canget excited about certain
things. But I don't know if thisis a critical time in the
(42:25):
history, But the Christianchurch and I did write Mike
Sharp asked me to do this littlemeet the moderator thing for the
current president of themagazine.
And in that, I explained what Ithought was is the greatest
enemy of the church, and I usedVietnam. And here's the
(42:47):
illustration if you wanna hearit Sure. Before you read it in
the common PresbyterianMagazine. When I was in Vietnam,
I was with an artillery battle,and it was our job to assist,
protect, and cover the troops inthe field. Whenever they've
encountered the enemy, theywould call in their coordinates
to us and then we would supportthem with supporting fire.
(43:08):
Now if they were off at all inwhat they sent to us, if we were
off at all in what we did on ourend, sometimes we didn't hit the
enemy at all. Sometimes we hitour own troops. And it was there
that I became familiar with theterm friendly fire. And when we
said someone was injured orkilled by friendly fire, we were
(43:30):
saying they weren't killed byenemy or hostile forces. They
were being killed and wounded bythat which was supposed to
assist, protect, and cover them.
And what I think the greatestenemy of the Christian church
today is friendly fire. And,okay, to use a concept, if the
(43:54):
devil couldn't defeat the churchfrom the outside in, he's
decided he's gonna defeat thechurch from the inside out.
Mhmm. And we are like that oldwagon train headed out west that
whenever they would encounterthe enemy would circle the
wagons and start shootinginwardly. And that's what we're
doing.
And there are individuals, andwe're watching denominations
(44:16):
split over this. We arestruggling with it in our
denomination. And it's like thatold cartoon Pogo saying, I've
seen the enemy and it is us,that we are going to just if
we're not careful, the we areour own worst enemy. We're if
(44:37):
we're not able to work togetherin unity and harmony to come up
with compromises that everybodycan live with, we're gonna kill
the church. And our denominationis too small and fragile to
handle, that kind of attack.
And so I've and I worry about itbecause of that. And I think
(44:59):
people have left the churchbecause of I know people who
have left the church because ofit. And we while the United
Methodist Church is the latestdenomination that is split over
and it's over, their emphasis onsocial justice, but also LGBTQ
(45:21):
community, their stance on that.PCUSA has struggled with it too
and others.
T.J. (45:28):
In your mind, how can the role in the office of moderator,
again, for relatively shortperiod of time in a church
history, 12 months, helpnavigate a denomination at every
level through the turmoil,growth, seeking, searching,
(45:51):
hardship, all the differentthings that we face both
collectively and individually asChristians?
Larry (46:01):
I remember an illustration in talking about
conflict resolution. Whenindividuals are at opposite ends
on something, and they'redisagreeing, that's like a fire.
And you can either throw wateron the fire, or you can throw
(46:23):
gasoline on the fire. Are yougoing to try to be a calming
influence in the midst of thestruggle? Are you just going to
ban the flame?
And that is the only way I knowhow we're going to deal with it.
And it's and I've forgottenwhich book I was reading about
the different levels ofconflict, and there's, like, 7.
(46:48):
And everything needs to behandled on level 1 where you
have 2 parties trying to worktogether for a common solution.
And we do this and I talk aboutthis in like premarital
counseling when couples arehaving trouble. Use the same
image of where you have to comeup with a compromise, which is
what our denomination has now interms of homosexuality.
(47:10):
It doesn't make either grouphappy. No. No. Nobody likes it,
but it's the only thing that isholding our denomination
together. Mhmm.
We say, yeah, the Bible says itit's a sin, but we still affirm
the Presbyterian policy. Weleave it up to congregations and
prescriptors decide who will beordained and who won't. And I
(47:32):
think it's important to do level1. What happens and I think what
is happening and it does a greatjob, and I could find the book,
but I'm not going to. You gothrough the different levels.
When you get to the highestlevel, you make the other person
(47:53):
the enemy, and you dehumanizethem, and in some cases, you
demonize them. They are thedevil themselves because they
disagree with you. And then youstop trying to defend your
position and you just wanna winno matter what the cost, and
you'll do whatever it takes towin, and that's when everybody
(48:15):
loses. So you've got to handlethe conflict at the lowest
possible level. Level 1, 2, or3, don't let it get to 4, 5, 6,
or 7.
That's when the church will becompletely and totally
destroyed. When we stoprespecting the opinion of
(48:36):
others, we're in trouble. And Irespect those who disagree with
me. My son-in-law is an ordainedBaptist. He has a PhD in
theology.
We don't agree on a lot ofthings. But when we talk about
it, he respects my opinion. Irespect his. I do not agree with
(48:58):
his position on women inministry or baptism. He doesn't
agree with me, but he doesn'tthink I'm stupid for the devil.
He doesn't think the church willunravel because I believe what I
(49:18):
believe. Mhmm. I don't think thechurch is going to unravel and
fall apart because he believeswhat he believes. I think we'll
survive just fine. And I thinkthat is the opinion of some
Moral fabric of our denominationwill just fall apart if we don't
(49:39):
believe like they believe, If wejust don't adhere to certain
things.
And now and I think when when Igo to what I think is gonna
unravel and kill the church, itgoes back to, well, what I call
the works of the flesh inGalatians 5 where sexual
(50:00):
immorality is one of them, butit's enmity, party spirit,
divisions, hatred. Those worksof the flesh is what I think
will destroy the church. That'swhat I fear is happening, in
some cases.
T.J. (50:16):
Alright. We've lived in the fragileness of the church.
Let's talk about some of theCumberland Presbyterian greatest
gifts and you being a long timein service to the church and a
long time member of theCumberland Presbyterian Church,
(50:37):
you're able to have this visionand perspective of, you know,
the the various decades of ofbecause I think I think
denominations and churcheschange over time, then
personalities can change. Maybenot their mission, maybe not
(50:57):
their understanding of god, butapproaches can change. And so
with this collective knowledgeof the Cumberland Presbyterian
Church and the what do you thinkare some of the greatest gifts
this denomination offers to theworld?
Larry (51:18):
Well, we we one that that has been from the beginning is
the medium followed mediumtheology between Calvinism and
Armenianism, I think is ourgreatest contribution. We don't
work in order to be saved, butwe work because we are saved.
(51:39):
Works are important. Mhmm. Andwe have always been able to to
be fluid, to be able to adapt,to change, to different areas in
different different ways, and toappreciate the differences.
(52:05):
And this is really ourdenomination itself has become
we're getting our greatestgrowth outside the United
States. The mission field iswhere we are growing. They don't
worship the same way we do overhere. They don't feel the same
way we do, but we respect theirtradition and how they're
(52:26):
handling it and theirevangelistic zeal, and some of
that really should rub off on usso we get a little bit better at
that. And I think that is andand trying to incorporate that
into, you know, our world viewthat we actually have a view
(52:49):
that encompasses the world andnot just the United States.
T.J. (52:57):
Let's talk about books, music, movies, extracurricular
activities, professional acting,plays, things of that nature
that have over your lifetimespoken to you, to your faith,
and to your ministry?
Larry (53:18):
Well, in terms I've told you, John Maxwell, in terms of
preaching style, but leadership.If you wanna find out about
leadership, any book written byJohn Maxwell is a great book to
read. But one of the books backin the eighties that I read that
(53:42):
I think every minister shouldread is looking in the mirror by
Lyles Schaller. It has awonderful view of the different
sizes of churches and thedifferent leadership styles that
are needed for those churchesbecause they're different.
T.J. (53:58):
Mhmm.
Larry (53:58):
And it's kind of important to know the
difference. If you can pastorreally if you're a wonderful
small church pastor, you may notbe a wonderful big church, large
church
T.J. (54:08):
Yeah.
Larry (54:09):
Pastor. But if you are, how does it change
administratively? And the otheranother one as far as the church
is concerned is Rick Warren's,and this was back in the
nineties, middle nineties. ThePurpose Driven Church is a great
book to read, to cause you tothink. And I like Rick Warren.
(54:31):
I don't agree with himtheologically on some things,
but I like. I really like thatbook. Spirituality, the one and
all of those individuals havehad an impact on my life. And
most of the impact comes from myreading. But spirituality and
living the Christian life, JohnOrtberg, any book written by
(54:56):
John Ortberg.
My favorite is The Life You'veAlways Wanted. It's, spiritual
disciplines for ordinary people.One of the best first chapters
of any book I've ever read. Andit well, because I relate to it,
and you'd have to read it andyou'd understand what I mean by
that. But I still use that.
(55:19):
I go back. I reread great sermonillustrations. You want some
really good he's he's veryreadable. All of these
individuals are very readable.Easy to do.
But in terms of movies, I'm I Idon't have much of a social
(55:40):
life. I don't I don't do much ofof that almost well, in all of
my reading is nonfiction. Itit's really all related to my
job, to my profession, and Ienjoy that. Not that I think I
would enjoy fiction. I've neverreally gotten into that.
T.J. (56:07):
What is your, what's your favorite play? 1, to perform in,
2, to be in the audience?
Larry (56:17):
Oh, great question. I I I I the one that we did in the
professional acting company, wedid guys and dolls. See, that
this is dating me. I was SkyMasters. Yeah.
(56:43):
I really enjoyed that. West SideStory in high school, and
they've redone that.
T.J. (56:50):
Mhmm.
Larry (56:51):
Well, a couple of different times with themes on
that. But now I don't go to likeI said, I don't have much of a
social life. I don't go to toomany plays or movies.
T.J. (57:06):
So you you liked, musicals?
Larry (57:09):
Oh, I really do.
T.J. (57:11):
K.
Larry (57:11):
And that's kind of on my bucket list. Not be I I have no
desire to be in musicals anymoreor to age, really. I have no
idea. But I love going through Ido. Mhmm.
And someday, I'm gonna have timeto just kinda do that and to sit
back and enjoy it.
T.J. (57:33):
Alright, Larry. One more question. We earlier talked
about the gifts of theCumberland Presbyterian Church.
What has been the greatest giftthis denomination has given to
you?
Larry (57:51):
My parents. That is the greatest gift this denomination
has given to me. And mostpeople, a lot of people, maybe
not most people, that is one ofthe greatest gifts your parents
can give you is their faith. Andit's something I hope that I
(58:12):
passed along to to my children.Now we don't always agree,
theologically, But it's justthat that faith in in Christ and
knowing that he's gonna be withyou no matter what you're going
through.
But yeah. That and theopportunity to serve and and
(58:44):
primarily in churches. And I'vebeen blessed by every church
I've been in, and I haveappreciated being able to share,
and, I very much appreciatetheir willingness to hear what I
have to share. But every one ofthem, I have learned a great
(59:06):
deal from congregations, butindividuals in congregations
have had an impact on my life.Mhmm.
There are tremendous lay leadersin our churches that are having
a ripple effect, and they're noteven aware of the effect they're
having on the lives of theirpastor and the people around
(59:29):
them. And that's not why they dowhat they do. They do it out of
love for the Lord. And it's awonderful gift to be able to
receive that blessing from them.Oh, this is something every
minister knows in thinking aboutthat of how many times you will
(59:49):
go to a hospital, and you'regonna minister to them, and they
end up ministering to you Yeah.
And you come away far moreblessed than
T.J. (59:58):
Right.
Larry (59:59):
You were able to touch their life.
T.J. (01:00:01):
Yeah.
Larry (01:00:02):
And I've had a lot of those moments.
T.J. (01:00:04):
Me too.
Larry (01:00:05):
Yeah. They're very special.
T.J. (01:00:08):
I think also when from a minister's point of view, when
you go you've been called toserve a church, a specific
church, a local church. Youthink, oh, I'm gonna bring this.
I'm gonna be able to do that.I'm gonna all these different
things. But in reality, for me,in retrospect, in years back, it
(01:00:31):
that's never been the case.
It's always how much I actuallyreceived from the congregation
and the community. Was way morethan I ever brought to the
table, way more than I was everable to offer, the people that I
was called to serve. They endedup giving me way way much more
(01:00:52):
than I was ever able to give interms of guidance, care,
teaching, leadership. Whatwonderful people and a high
toleration level of the placesthat I've been. Patient,
tolerant, forgiving everywhereI've served.
Larry (01:01:13):
Now that was a humbling thing about my first church out
of seminary.
T.J. (01:01:20):
Mhmm.
Larry (01:01:22):
Was it was very humbling because I really didn't know
what I was doing. I wasclueless. I didn't had a lot of
education, but I was, you know.Mhmm. And they with what you
said is what made me think ofthat.
(01:01:43):
They were very patient andloving and kind and helping me
through that entire process. AndI'm very grateful, especially
for that first church. I thinkthe one I had in seminary at
Bolivar was wonderful too. Ithink your first church is
extremely important and has apowerful impact on your life and
(01:02:05):
whether you stay in ministry ornot. There are some mean
churches out there.
There are some mean pastors outthere. I was blessed with very
loving churches, and I'm in onenow. And I I feel blessed to be
where I am and grateful forthem.
T.J. (01:02:24):
Well, maybe those mean churches and mean, mean pastors
that you mentioned will findfind each
Larry (01:02:32):
other and and be able to do good
T.J. (01:02:36):
stuff together, you know. You can't have there's only so
much meanness you can have inone room. So
Larry (01:02:42):
I don't I don't know. I hope that's true. Well, I keep
praying that God will touchtheir hearts. Create of me a
pure art, oh god, please. Youknow?
A plain alright.
T.J. (01:03:01):
Well, there have been plenty of times that, folks have
found me not at my best and haveoverlooked those. And, so I
grant I attempt to grant that toall the folks that I encounter
in my daily walk. And maybe Icaught somebody when they were
not at their best. And I have tokeep that in mind.
Larry (01:03:25):
That's an important thing.
T.J. (01:03:28):
Larry, thank you for giving me part of your
afternoon.
Larry (01:03:32):
Well, thank you for inviting me to share. I
appreciate it.
T.J. (01:03:37):
It was good to reconnect. We have not connected like this
since the 19 nineties.
Larry (01:03:48):
Oh my.
T.J. (01:03:51):
This is the longest conversation that we have had
since the 19 nineties.
Larry (01:03:55):
Yeah. It's a long time and a long conversation. Yeah.
T.J. (01:04:03):
Well, I think the role the roles, they weren't different,
but, it was a pastor speaking toa candidate in ministry. So,
yeah, shame on you forencouraging me.
Larry (01:04:22):
I know. What what was I thinking? Okay. I can get a few
things right. I'll tell youthough.
T.J. (01:04:31):
Larry, thank you so much.
Larry (01:04:33):
Oh, thank you. I appreciate it.
T.J. (01:04:37):
Thank you for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road.
Please share this podcast withyour family, your friends, your
neighbors, your coworkers. Inclosing, I leave you with these
words from John Maxwell in hisbook Developing the Leader
Within You. We cannot choose howmany years we live, but we can
(01:05:00):
choose how much life those yearswill have. We cannot control the
beauty of our face, but we cancontrol the expression on it. We
cannot control life's difficultmoments, but we can choose to
make life less difficult. Wecannot control the negative
atmosphere of the world, but wecan control the atmosphere of
(01:05:21):
our minds. Too often, we try tochoose and control things we
cannot. But too seldom, wechoose to control what we can,
our attitude. Thanks forlistening.
Here is the Cumberland Road podcast, and I'm your host,
TJ Malinovsky. The following isa conversation with reverend
doctor Larry Blakeburn, anordained minister serving the
First Cumberland PresbyterianChurch in Oak Ridge, Tennessee.
(00:26):
Larry is a former president ofMemphis Theological Seminary, a
Vietnam veteran. He hasmoderated 5 different
presbyteries. He has served 5different congregations
throughout his ministry.
Larry is one of the 2 currentnominations, the General
(00:47):
Assembly Moderator of theCumberland Presbyterian Church,
and he sat down with me forabout an hour to share his faith
journey. We talk about hisChristian faith growing up, his
understanding of ministry, andreflections of the church in the
21st century. Here is myconversation with Larry
(01:12):
Blakeburn.
Larry, thank you for joining me.My I want to open our
conversation with this question.What early experience can you
recall of encountering God?What's an early faith experience
(01:34):
for you or moment for you?
Larry (01:39):
The first time I really remember experiencing the
presence of God. I was 8 yearsold in Sharon, Tennessee when my
father was in seminary atBethel, and I still to this day
believe I heard God speak to me,call my name. It's kinda like
(02:03):
the Samuel thing. Mhmm. And itwent 3 times, it was 2.
But at that moment, I felt God'spresence. And the rest of that
day, being 8 years old, walkingaround, feeling the presence of
God, it was at that point that Idecided I needed to profess my
faith. And I talked to my fatherabout it, and he thought he he
(02:24):
didn't try to talk me out of it,but he thought I was too young
to do that. But he didn't wannadiscourage me either, so I did.
I bet next Sunday, I wentforward.
I professed my faith. And as Iremembered, I was also I had
thought I was baptized at thattime as well. But really from
(02:45):
that moment on, from 8 years ofage, it had always been in my
mind that that's what I would doas a vocation. God called me
into ministry. Now over theyears, I had a couple of other
things I thought about doing anda couple of other things I did
actually do, but it was alwaysthere.
(03:07):
And then throughout, you know,my childhood and then
adolescence, young adulthood.I've had several very meaningful
encounters. A lot of them formost of us, not maybe you,
church camp where you feel thepresence of God, you're away
from all the distractions, andyou just kinda feel him there
(03:30):
out in nature. And I've hadseveral moments at church camp
like that. And then when I was asenior in high school was when I
came under the care of thepresident of East Tennessee as a
candidate for the ministry.
Yeah. And then went to BethelCollege back then was what it
(03:54):
was called. And I was aministerial student. And I can
tell you about my faith journeyif you want me to keep going on
that topic.
T.J. (04:03):
Yeah. Please.
Larry (04:04):
Of course. Bailed what derailed that whole thing? Well,
when I went to college, Imajored in extracurricular
activities. I had the I Ipledged a fraternity, phi Delta
Sigma, which was ministerialstudents just did that. Then I
was in every play that Bethelput on.
I was in the Bethel Balladeers.I was in student government
(04:26):
association, and I kinda forgotthat the main thing is to keep
the main thing the main thing.
T.J. (04:31):
Mhmm.
Larry (04:32):
And so after 2 years of majoring in extracurricular
activities, Bethel invited menot to come back for a quarter.
It was called academicsuspension. So I said, oh, yeah?
Do that, will you? Well, I'llshow you.
So I joined the marine corps.Well, in in all honesty and
(04:56):
transparency, you know, this wasduring this was 1968, and the
Vietnam war was going on. And alot of people avoided the draft
by going to Canada. Well, Iavoided the draft by joining the
marine corps. And, yeah, andthey sent me to Vietnam.
Now this is where the twistcomes in. After Vietnam, and
(05:23):
when I came back, when I wentinto the marine corps, I was a
ministerial candidate. When Igot out of the marine corps, I
wasn't. And the reason was andit wasn't that I ever stopped
believing. I always believed.
It was, oh, you know, HoraceBushnell, a pioneer Christian
(05:45):
educator, said it's the purposeof Christian education to train
a child in such a way that theywill never know themselves to be
anything other than a Christian.Mhmm. Well, that's me. I've
always been a Christian. Well,when I came back, it was like I
told God, I I can't do this.
After doing the things that I'vedone, after seeing the things
(06:06):
that I've seen, I'm not worthyto stand in a pulpit and preach
to anybody. And that was andstill is true. Well, eventually,
I I did a couple of otherthings. I was in a professional
acting company for a while, andthen, finally, Paul Brown was
(06:29):
the one who actually got me togo back to Bethel. And I went
back, and Bob Prosser was thepastor of the McKinsey church at
that time.
And then, really, by the time mysenior year rolled around, I
discovered what the grace of Godwas really all about and what
the cross of Christ and hisblood washing away all my sin,
(06:55):
what that really mean. Becausebefore the marine corps, I
thought I deserved to go toheaven. I was kind of naive, but
I was really a good kid. Well,afterwards, I knew I didn't
deserve to go to heaven, but itwas like God called me in my
senior year. I felt the call.
I felt God saying, I want you togo into the ministry. And I
(07:18):
said, no. I can't do that. AndGod said, well, why not? And I
said, you know why not.
I'm not worthy to do that. Andit was like God said, okay,
Larry. And he did this to BobProsser and some of the
professors that helped me walkedme through this. He said, okay.
(07:40):
I want you to build the Bible,and I want you to show me one
person that I've used in therethat deserve to be used.
You showed me just one personwho was sinless. Well, there's
only 1, and you're not Jesus. Soyou can't use that as an excuse.
And so it was at that point, andit was really like this huge
(08:00):
weight was lifted from me. Andso I did.
I came back under the care ofthe presbytery of East
Tennessee, and I guess the restis history. But because of that,
profound sense of unworthiness,I am very open to others who are
(08:23):
not worthy of being used asministers, and yet God still
somehow working through ourimperfections, working through
our sin, and yet touching andblessing the lives of others. It
keeps me from being in any wayjudgmental or or prideful
(08:45):
because I know I have no rightto be the one. And so it in a
way, it was a difficultexperience for me, but I think
for my spiritual development, itwas an important period of time
Mhmm. For me.
So that's kind of my spiritualjourney.
T.J. (09:09):
Alright. You've given me a lot to unpack. We'll see how
much how much, you would like totouch on. So, you're talking
about extracurricular activitiesas a degree. What was your
mindset then?
Were you going to do sports likein, you know, an academic
(09:29):
setting? What what were you whatwas the plan?
Larry (09:33):
Oh, the plan was in order to become a minister, you have
to get an undergraduate degreeand a graduate degree. So I'm
just gonna get the degree. Itreally wasn't about knowledge.
It was really about I'm gonnaenjoy freedom. I'm gonna enjoy
this this time.
(09:55):
And okay. Here's an interestingthing from my perspective. When
I went back the second timeafter the marine corps
T.J. (10:05):
Mhmm.
Larry (10:07):
I was still involved in all of the same things. I was in
every play they put on. I wasended up being president if I
dealt the sigma. I was vicepresident of the student
government association. Thedifference the second time,
priorities and discipline, whereI was going back to get an
(10:28):
education, not to get a degree.
That one the focal point was togain as much knowledge as I
could. And so it was academicsfirst and all the
extracurricular activities, 2nd,3rd, 4th, and 5th. Before it was
extracurricular first, academicslast. If I had any time for it,
(10:50):
I'd study, which usually meant Ididn't have any time for it. I
was just having a good time.
And I did I think I did verywell when I went back the second
time. But that is what one ofthe things, when I talk to
graduates before they go toschool is your question. Why are
(11:14):
you doing this? What's gonna beyour top priority? Where are you
gonna spend your time?
And it's important to decidesometimes in that 1st year, it's
not good to be distracted with alot of extracurricular. You may
do 1, but don't get overwhelmedwith other things. Because most
(11:37):
people when we first go, we'renot quite mature enough to
handle Yeah. All of that.
T.J. (11:43):
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Larry (11:44):
Later in life, we learn how to to balance and discipline
ourselves in a slightly betterway. But, no, it wasn't
academics. I wasn't at allinterested in that. My brother,
Mark, was a year younger. He wasvery interested in academics.
He did really well.
T.J. (12:03):
Yeah. Speaking of family, what was the family reaction
when you acknowledged the callinto the ordained ministry?
Because you your your father wasan ordained minister in the
Cumberland Presbyterian Church.Was it was it, full of,
jubilation and joy? Or it waslike, may I try to talk you out
(12:27):
of that?
Ministry is a tough go. So whatwas the response?
Larry (12:33):
That's another great question. My father is and I
have such great admiration, andhe's one of the reasons I went
in the ministry. It's acombination of the 2. I think he
was proud, he was excited that Iwas doing it, but he wanted to
(12:54):
make sure I wasn't doing itbecause of him.
T.J. (12:57):
Mhmm.
Larry (12:57):
That to call when I wanna be like dad, So I'm gonna go
into ministry. And also talkingabout because it is difficult
being a minister, and he didtalk about all of that. And, you
know, obviously, I came I'm I'mnot doing it because of my
(13:19):
father. But because of myfather, I felt very comfortable
doing it. Mhmm.
Mhmm. Because I respected him somuch. So it was a little
combination of the 2. Not, oh,boy. I can't wait or, oh, don't
do that.
It was, let let's think aboutit. We'll pray about it. And you
(13:42):
have time, and that's what thecandidacy that that whole
process, that's why it's there,to help us kinda walk through is
this really what we wanna do?Are we doing it because of
parents' pressure or theirchurch's pressure? Or are we
doing it because we genuinelyfeel a call
T.J. (14:01):
Mhmm.
Larry (14:01):
From God and I genuinely felt a call from God.
T.J. (14:05):
It is certainly a time of exploration. This is your time
to explore inwardly, outwardly,gather responses, practice
ministry. It's for those who arethinking about it and for those
who are in, as a candidate. Soakit up as much as you can. I took
(14:27):
a different approach.
I couldn't get through fastenough. But I started so early
that it was still a long processjust because of my age of of
when I became a candidate. Butlooking back, those are good
opportunities to take your time,seek out opportunities to serve,
(14:51):
observe, because you you gain somuch, from the experience and
the education. The educationisn't just academics. The
education also comes from thepeople that you were serving
with and 2.
Larry (15:10):
Yeah. It's amazing how much individual churches that I
have served have formed who I amnow spiritually. Because I was
raised yeah. I don't know quitehow to put this.
T.J. (15:31):
Bluntly. Bluntly. Put it bluntly. Yeah.
Larry (15:35):
I I hate to. Really, my first church in terms of actual
evangelism, My first churchtaught me more than anything
else that I've been through inhow to share my faith. I hadn't
been with a congregation likethat, you know, really through
(15:58):
my entire life and what theyteach you in seminary at the
time really didn't deal with it.Mhmm. And they dealt with it
very openly, very warmly, in avery positive way, evangelism
explosion, lay witness mission,training you how to share your
faith, how to share the gospel.
And I've never been around anyof that. And and as a matter of
(16:24):
fact, because of that, well, notbecause of that, but where the
church was located in FortWorth, the community just grew
up around us, and the churchgrew. Well, it outgrew my
ability to lead. And that's whatprompted me to go back back to
school and to work on thedoctorate. And the original
(16:47):
thought was to do it inevangelism at Fuller.
But j David Hester, who I thinkgraduated from 4, he was a
president of Memphis TheologicalSeminary at the time, Talked me
into going to our seminary. Butthat was it. It did outgrown my
ability to lead. I didn't quiteknow how to do it.
T.J. (17:08):
Well, that takes a level of humility to be able to go,
woah, this growth, this ministrythat I'm a part of expands
beyond my understanding or or myabilities, and I need to educate
myself. There have been and areand probably will be places in
(17:30):
my own ministry where I willpush that small voice away
because of my ego or or toimpress somebody, whatever it
may be. But you were solidenough to go, I need more
guidance on this, and I I'mgoing to continue to prepare
myself for whatever ministrybrings. It takes a big person to
(17:53):
be able to do that.
Larry (17:55):
One of the things in that at Saint Luke and Fort Worth,
they encouraged me and paid forme to go to at least 1 and they
encouraged 2 workshops,seminars. Mhmm. And those were
extremely helpful, in eventslike, breaking the 200 barrier
(18:16):
in evangelism, but that wasn'tthe only we had several
different and I wish morechurches would do that, Pay for
and encourage our pastors forcontinuing education, for
workshops, for seminars, to helpenrich their ministry. And it
was one of those, and I may havementioned this to you, because
(18:39):
you mentioned and I don't knowif you said you like the outline
I put in the bulletin, but,yeah, you you commented on the
fact to remember that I put anoutline of the sermon in the
bulletin. Well, I got that fromone of the seminars, and I heard
John Maxwell, who has passedwith that time Skyline Wesleyan
(18:59):
Church.
He was one of the best speakersI have ever heard, and he didn't
preach behind a pulpit. And hehad an outline of his message,
his sermon. Now he had blanks inthe outline, so he had to listen
and fill in the blanks Okay.That he went through. So I said,
because I was so impressed withhow he preached, I said, I'm
(19:19):
gonna try that.
Holy smoke is that scary whenyou first do it, getting away
from your manuscript, gettingaway from the pulpit Mhmm.
Printing an outline so everybodyknows where you're supposed to
be going, so you better knowwhere you're going. That was it
it took me a little there was aperiod of adjustment there.
T.J. (19:41):
Mhmm.
Larry (19:42):
But I really like the freedom that it's given me. I
don't stay behind the pulpit.Mhmm. And it's like I am I'm not
preaching at them or to them.I'm just talking with them.
T.J. (19:56):
Mhmm.
Larry (19:56):
I'm just sharing. And most people not everybody likes
it, by the way. Me being notbehind the pulpit. There are
those who'd rather I'd staythere. Most people I think are
okay with it Just abouteverybody likes the outline.
T.J. (20:12):
Mhmm.
Larry (20:13):
And I've had several people say they take them home,
and they would use it to remindthem of what I was talking
about. Now we video it, and it'son YouTube. But they will use
it, and they will share it. Notall of them because some of them
aren't worth looking at, butthere are some of them that they
will then share with otherpeople.
T.J. (20:33):
Yeah.
Larry (20:34):
So I've kind of been encouraged by that part, but all
of that came out of didn't comeout of seminary because they do
not teach that in seminary. Italked to Mary Lynn Hudson about
that, matter of fact, what shethought about it. She wasn't
that crazy about it. Did notreally respect her and her
(20:55):
opinion.
T.J. (20:57):
Well, for our listeners, for context, as, I had reached
out to you, we we had talked andjust in our casual conversation
and in preparation for thisconversation, you were at one of
the churches that I grew up inand that was one of the things
that I recalled is the churchhad a bulletin at the time and
(21:20):
then the bulletin insert wasyour sermon outline. And I was
I've remembered that. I don'tremember a specific sermon
outline, but I remember the Iremember the practice. And there
was a point in my ministry whereI had tried that. You know, I've
tried note cards, memorization,manuscripts, outlines,
(21:42):
conversational.
You know, just over the youknow, from teenage years to
middle age years, it's good wehave to find your preaching
voice. And then visit visitsome, you know, over the course
of your ministry, visitdifferent techniques and revisit
different techniques to see whatfits for you, what fits for that
(22:03):
specific sermon, and thecongregation or the listeners.
So I do remember that, and itwas an expectation within the
bulletin as you open it up. Atminimum, it became a preview for
the listener in the pew of,like, where are we going? What
are we going to talk about?
(22:24):
And you could even see the pointof arrival vaguely see the point
of arrival. Now, I mean, there'spros and cons to that. One is,
depending on the listener'sframe of mind is, I'm not
plugging in because I'm notinterested in this particular
theme or text or whatever. Orthe opposite of that is, wow,
based upon the outline, this isspeaking to where I currently
(22:48):
am. And you're able to tone outall the different distractions
and lean in to where the messageis taking.
So it's a worthwhile practice.It's worthwhile at minimum that
I still remember that you didthat way back in my teenage
years? And it's good to hearthat it is still something that
(23:09):
you use now.
Larry (23:12):
It's interesting. I'm a visual learner Mhmm. And those
who are visual love the outline.Educators, Almost we have a a
lot of teachers in, well, justabout every church I've had, but
the one I'm in now, teachersreally like it. But a point you
(23:33):
made, and I've made this pointin the sermon, not every sermon
is for everybody.
T.J. (23:39):
Right.
Larry (23:40):
I want it to touch everybody, but there are gonna
be times when, yeah, you look atthe outline and go, okay, like
this Sunday I'm gonna be talkingreally to graduates. Well, most
of my congregation are older.They you know, they're they're
gonna go, yeah, yeah, I knowabout all of that. And it it's
not so about 90% of themprobably not gonna get a whole
(24:01):
lot out of this one, but I thinkgraduates, I think they will.
Right?
I'm praying
T.J. (24:07):
Mhmm.
Larry (24:08):
That they will anyway.
T.J. (24:09):
Yeah. Because of the stage of their life.
Larry (24:12):
Yeah.
T.J. (24:12):
Yeah. This is a new season.
Larry (24:15):
Yeah. A great start. Yeah. Gosh. It's a big
transition Mhmm.
For most people. It was for me.
T.J. (24:23):
Well, hey, speaking
Larry (24:24):
I didn't handle that well, but hey, you know.
T.J. (24:27):
Yeah. Speaking of transitions, what a transition
from the academic world in thelate sixties to the marines to
the military. What made you makethat life choice in a Cali right
(24:47):
in the middle of the conflict inVietnam.
Larry (24:53):
Yeah. And this is interesting for me too. And it
was basically as I said before,I didn't wanna be drafted. I
wanted to pick the branch ofservice. And, initially, all I
wanted to do, I would I justwent to the recruiting station,
(25:16):
and they had a place there forarmy, navy, marines.
And I really wanted to go intothe navy, but the only one that
would give me 2 years besidesthe army was the marine corps.
And so that's when now here'sthe interesting part of that. A
(25:37):
couple of things. 1, I didn'tknow if they sent me to Vietnam,
I don't believe in the taking ofhuman life. I I just don't.
And now I'm even moreconservative on that than I was
then. I didn't know if I couldkill anybody. Seriously. I said,
(25:57):
they'll send me over there, andI'm gonna be worthless. Well, I
still when I got there, youdiscover, your capacity for self
preservation is pretty strong,and I figured out I could.
(26:18):
I never had to. I think it wouldhave done a lot of damage to me
emotionally, psychologically ifI did. But where I was with
artillery battery, it was alldefensive. And I was in
administration, I didn't go outon many patrols at all, just a
(26:39):
few. And we were alwaysinstructed don't fire unless
you're fired upon.
And and for and we had a coupleof occasions where we
encountered them, theyencountered us, but no fire was
exchanged. So I am grateful forthat part of it. Another
interesting part, when I gotback my brother Mark is a year
(27:01):
younger. He and most of myfriends were protesting the war
while I was in the war. And mybrother asked me when I got
back, did it bother does itbother you that I protested the
war?
And I said, good heavens, no.Look. A part of that is that's
one of the reasons you defendthe freedom of people to have
(27:23):
freedom of expression. But Isaid, well, there are a lot of
us who weren't crazy about beingthere either
T.J. (27:28):
Mhmm.
Larry (27:28):
And weren't really you know, what's the point of this?
It was I remember one time,we're sitting there, and and we
got a lot of incoming becausewe're with artillery battery.
And and the last 3 days werereally brutal, and I got a
(27:50):
Vietnamese cross a gallantry fornot dying. But I remember and
there were 3 days, really baddays, and and when we first
started it on red alert, we'relined up, and I'm looking at all
of us are, like, 18 to 21 yearsof age. And I said, this is
stupid.
(28:10):
Unbelievable waste of human lifebecause we're not all gonna make
it out of this. And and theydid. We we didn't. They didn't
make all of us didn't make itout of it. Another interesting
thing, I didn't tell anybody Ithat Vietnamese cross a gallery
for 20 years, and I figured outit was survivor's guilt.
(28:35):
I felt guilty about survivingwhen they didn't make it. That's
it. You know, the ones who needthe award, the medal for those
who didn't make it. Now I see itmore if I tell people about it.
It's it's in honor of those whodid sacrifice their lives at
that point.
(28:56):
And so I don't feel guilty abouthaving it, although I still
didn't do anything. Right. But Ijust didn't die. Didn't didn't
get killed. But that was and andmy father made it somebody told
me about this, and I can'trecall the story exactly.
(29:17):
Stan Wood, I think, is the onewho may have told me about it.
It was at CPYC, and daddy, myfather, was preaching. And I
think Paul Brown was there, andPaul, you know, so liberal, and
he was in very dramatic. He wastalking about the horrors of
war, and he acted out peoplefalling down and dying and how
(29:39):
horrible it was. And my fatherin his sermon made the comment
because I was in Vietnam at thattime.
And he said, I have one son inVietnam. I have another son
protesting the war in Vietnam,and you're asking me to choose
between the 2. He said, I can'tdo it. I love both sides. And
(30:03):
that was one of the things Idon't think they were crazy
about me making that choice.
I'm joining the marine corps.But they always supported the
decisions their children made.Mhmm. Mhmm. Whether they agreed
with those decisions or not,they respected our opinion.
(30:25):
They respected enough not to putus down, then integrate us to
say that was the dumbest thingyou've ever done. Although they
may have thought that, but theydid they did not say that. And
that's one of the things thatthere are so many things that I
(30:45):
respect about my parents, butthat's one of them.
T.J. (30:49):
It's interesting to, revisit this part with you
because if we go back in timewhen you were at the West
Nashville church, I'm about theage that, you would have been in
Vietnam, you know, after becauseyou were still at my home church
(31:12):
even after my graduation. And soduring that time period, every
once in a while, you wouldmention something in the sermon
or just in casual conversation.But when asked directly I can
remember this. You You wouldpush back a little bit, kindly,
but push back, you know, justanswer the question, but not
(31:33):
much detail. And now, fastforward a few years later,
several years later.
And, it's a very differentconversation about your
experience in Vietnam. That'skinda neat.
Larry (31:47):
Takes time to process that.
T.J. (31:50):
Mhmm.
Larry (31:51):
And I think difficult times in anyone's life,
traumatic experiences, It takestime before you're able to
really process it and talk aboutit Mhmm. And feel comfortable.
That kind of experience, somepeople never get comfortable
(32:14):
talking about, and it depends.Some people, what they go
through is a whole lot worsethan what I went through.
T.J. (32:22):
Mhmm.
Larry (32:22):
And you you don't wanna think about it. You just really
don't wanna talk about it. LikeI said, that's true with, a lot
of traumatic experiences.
T.J. (32:38):
Well, to add variety to your rich life, somehow, I had
to jot this one down. Soextracurricular activities as a
degree, the marines, service inVietnam. And then you mentioned
professional acting company.
Larry (32:56):
Yeah. Okay. So I
T.J. (32:58):
didn't know this about you. Tell me the about this part
of your life.
Larry (33:02):
Well, when I have always been involved in drama in high
school and in college well, inin high school, it and this was
my father took to GreenvilleCumberbatch Community Church,
Greenville, Tennessee in themiddle of my senior year. I
(33:24):
spent three and a half years atWhite Station in Memphis and
then went to Greenville for 6months and got my high school
diploma from Greenville. But,anyway, I was in the senior I've
been in 2 senior plays. 1 1 inWhite Station in Memphis and one
in Greenville. When I got out ofthe marine corps, went back to
(33:46):
Greenville, the girl who playedopposite me in Pygmalion was in
this professional actingcompany.
And she said, you ought to comeup and audition because I was I
dropped out of the ministry. Iwas kind of just floundering
around. So I did went up, and itstarted out doing musical revues
(34:07):
in the summer at a resort. Itwas in East Tennessee, then went
to it was Old West DinnerTheatre in Kingsport and did
that for about a year and didmusicals mostly. Yeah.
Went in that yeah. I know.Right?
T.J. (34:29):
I'm having trouble picturing this. That's all.
Larry (34:32):
Oh, oh, gosh. I should show you a picture of me back in
those days. You didn't havetrouble with that one too. Where
okay. Because of thatexperience, it makes it a little
easier to get away from themanuscript and not stay behind a
pulpit because I'm used tostanding in front of people
memorizing a script.
So, I mean, it wasn't foreign tome, but it's different when it's
(34:57):
your material, and you're notmemorizing somebody else's
material because then it's verypersonal. And I tell them that,
and I've started doing that alot more often lately. I'm
sharing my faith with you. Youdon't have to agree with me. Me.
I just want if if if nothingelse just caused you to
(35:18):
reevaluate your faith, but youbelieve, drive you to go back to
the Bible and say, okay. Why didhe say that? Do I really agree
with it? Mhmm. And I said, I'min I'm not infallible.
So Just respect what I say, andI'll respect how you receive it.
T.J. (35:37):
Mhmm.
Larry (35:39):
But, yeah, professional acting company was fun.
T.J. (35:43):
Well, kinda walk me through the transition from the
professional acting company andhow you revisited, the ministry
again? Was it reentering schooland then ministry, or was it
kinda revisiting ministry andnow I gotta go back to school?
Larry (36:03):
Oh, no. It was go back to school. And it really when it
went back, I was really thinkingabout being a social worker. I
still wanted to be with people,helping people. And that really
was a focus even though Englishwas still I finally kinda
(36:25):
focused on that as a major, but,I really still, like I said, it
took me time to processeverything and to feel God's
grace and call and to give intothat call.
And it was after I was back atschool, as I said, through the
(36:47):
influence of Bob Prosser, thepastor of some 2 or 3 of the
professors there at Bethel, thatI was able to not just hear, but
to respond positively to thecall to go into ministry. But
even then at first, I wasn'tsure exactly what type. I'd
(37:09):
always been pastoral ministry,but then I started exploring
other things before settling onthe pastoral ministry. But then
once I settled on that, Ithought that's probably what I'd
do forever.
T.J. (37:24):
Mhmm. And and you did for a long time.
Larry (37:26):
Well, deviated from it when I went to this seminary.
T.J. (37:34):
Yeah. Yeah.
Larry (37:35):
But that from West Nashville. Yeah. And the West
Nashville Church went to MemphisTheological Seminary.
T.J. (37:41):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I graduated high school. You were
still at West Nashville. Yourejoiced.
We got rid of them.
Larry (37:52):
And then
T.J. (37:53):
and then fast
Larry (37:54):
forward that they know.
T.J. (37:55):
Fast forward, 4 might have been 5 years. Then you were the
president of Memphis TheologicalSeminary. I was a student.
Larry (38:10):
Yeah. Amazing.
T.J. (38:13):
How long were you there? I don't remember. There there was
a lot of turnover. I don't meanthis in a bad way, but there was
a lot of turnover when I was astudent both at Bethel and at
Memphis Theological Seminary
Larry (38:24):
in terms of, leadership. Yeah. I was there 4 years.
T.J. (38:29):
Okay.
Larry (38:29):
And then, after we there was an individual who was there
for 1 year.
T.J. (38:35):
Mhmm.
Larry (38:36):
And I've forgotten his name. Yeah. We wouldn't come a
Presbyterian, and he tried totake us in a direction that the
seminary didn't wanna go. Andthen move from that to the one I
wanted to take the positionafter I left was the one who did
take it after that, what I'mcalling an interim presidency,
(38:59):
with Jay, your heart, Brown.
T.J. (39:05):
I came up, before, Bethel, now University, and then Memphis
Theological Seminary. I thinkduring my time in both of those
institutions, they were goingthrough some transition. And I
want to say I had a differentpresident every year or almost
every year in in both of thoseinstitutions.
Larry (39:27):
Goodness. That's terrible. That's well, that's
not the easiest thing to do.Good to have continuity. It's
T.J. (39:38):
No. No. It was probably, my, social and academic conduct.
Larry (39:48):
Yeah. I understand both of those things. I have had a
met familiarity with thosethings, as a matter of fact.
T.J. (39:59):
Well, Larry, you were nominated by Presbytery of East
Tennessee for the office ofmoderator of the general
assembly. Why in the world didyou say yes to the nomination?
Larry (40:20):
Temporary insanity. That's interesting that Tom
Campbell came up to me at themeeting of presbytery, and he
said, can I place your name innomination and for moderator
general assembly? And I said, Iguess. So I didn't have any
warning, and I did question thatafter he did it because now
(40:47):
being moderator, I've beennominated before.
T.J. (40:49):
Oh, really? Okay.
Larry (40:51):
And obviously wasn't elected, an elder was. Mhmm. And
I was really excited that he waselected, really disappointed
that I wasn't because I ain'tlosing. Nobody likes the blues.
But he was the right person atthat time.
I had no problem, but not beingmoderator of the general
assembly. But it's a a reallygreat honor to be moderator of
(41:20):
the general assembly, but withthat honor comes a great
responsibility. Not just tomoderate at one meeting, but to
represent the church over thenext 12 months. And I don't know
if I'm the right person for thejob or not and I'm hoping God
will direct whoever needs to bein that position. Our church, as
(41:40):
you were mentioning over thelast several years, we are very
fragile right now in a delicateposition, and we need somebody
who can help unify, hold ustogether to really promote the
peace, unity, and purity of thechurch.
(42:02):
And I would like to think I'mthat type of person, but maybe
not. Maybe I'm not the person todo that. I can get animated,
which I'm sure you know. I canget excited about certain
things. But I don't know if thisis a critical time in the
(42:25):
history, But the Christianchurch and I did write Mike
Sharp asked me to do this littlemeet the moderator thing for the
current president of themagazine.
And in that, I explained what Ithought was is the greatest
enemy of the church, and I usedVietnam. And here's the
(42:47):
illustration if you wanna hearit Sure. Before you read it in
the common PresbyterianMagazine. When I was in Vietnam,
I was with an artillery battle,and it was our job to assist,
protect, and cover the troops inthe field. Whenever they've
encountered the enemy, theywould call in their coordinates
to us and then we would supportthem with supporting fire.
(43:08):
Now if they were off at all inwhat they sent to us, if we were
off at all in what we did on ourend, sometimes we didn't hit the
enemy at all. Sometimes we hitour own troops. And it was there
that I became familiar with theterm friendly fire. And when we
said someone was injured orkilled by friendly fire, we were
(43:30):
saying they weren't killed byenemy or hostile forces. They
were being killed and wounded bythat which was supposed to
assist, protect, and cover them.
And what I think the greatestenemy of the Christian church
today is friendly fire. And,okay, to use a concept, if the
(43:54):
devil couldn't defeat the churchfrom the outside in, he's
decided he's gonna defeat thechurch from the inside out.
Mhmm. And we are like that oldwagon train headed out west that
whenever they would encounterthe enemy would circle the
wagons and start shootinginwardly. And that's what we're
doing.
And there are individuals, andwe're watching denominations
(44:16):
split over this. We arestruggling with it in our
denomination. And it's like thatold cartoon Pogo saying, I've
seen the enemy and it is us,that we are going to just if
we're not careful, the we areour own worst enemy. We're if
(44:37):
we're not able to work togetherin unity and harmony to come up
with compromises that everybodycan live with, we're gonna kill
the church. And our denominationis too small and fragile to
handle, that kind of attack.
And so I've and I worry about itbecause of that. And I think
(44:59):
people have left the churchbecause of I know people who
have left the church because ofit. And we while the United
Methodist Church is the latestdenomination that is split over
and it's over, their emphasis onsocial justice, but also LGBTQ
(45:21):
community, their stance on that.PCUSA has struggled with it too
and others.
T.J. (45:28):
In your mind, how can the role in the office of moderator,
again, for relatively shortperiod of time in a church
history, 12 months, helpnavigate a denomination at every
level through the turmoil,growth, seeking, searching,
(45:51):
hardship, all the differentthings that we face both
collectively and individually asChristians?
Larry (46:01):
I remember an illustration in talking about
conflict resolution. Whenindividuals are at opposite ends
on something, and they'redisagreeing, that's like a fire.
And you can either throw wateron the fire, or you can throw
(46:23):
gasoline on the fire. Are yougoing to try to be a calming
influence in the midst of thestruggle? Are you just going to
ban the flame?
And that is the only way I knowhow we're going to deal with it.
And it's and I've forgottenwhich book I was reading about
the different levels ofconflict, and there's, like, 7.
(46:48):
And everything needs to behandled on level 1 where you
have 2 parties trying to worktogether for a common solution.
And we do this and I talk aboutthis in like premarital
counseling when couples arehaving trouble. Use the same
image of where you have to comeup with a compromise, which is
what our denomination has now interms of homosexuality.
(47:10):
It doesn't make either grouphappy. No. No. Nobody likes it,
but it's the only thing that isholding our denomination
together. Mhmm.
We say, yeah, the Bible says itit's a sin, but we still affirm
the Presbyterian policy. Weleave it up to congregations and
prescriptors decide who will beordained and who won't. And I
(47:32):
think it's important to do level1. What happens and I think what
is happening and it does a greatjob, and I could find the book,
but I'm not going to. You gothrough the different levels.
When you get to the highestlevel, you make the other person
(47:53):
the enemy, and you dehumanizethem, and in some cases, you
demonize them. They are thedevil themselves because they
disagree with you. And then youstop trying to defend your
position and you just wanna winno matter what the cost, and
you'll do whatever it takes towin, and that's when everybody
(48:15):
loses. So you've got to handlethe conflict at the lowest
possible level. Level 1, 2, or3, don't let it get to 4, 5, 6,
or 7.
That's when the church will becompletely and totally
destroyed. When we stoprespecting the opinion of
(48:36):
others, we're in trouble. And Irespect those who disagree with
me. My son-in-law is an ordainedBaptist. He has a PhD in
theology.
We don't agree on a lot ofthings. But when we talk about
it, he respects my opinion. Irespect his. I do not agree with
(48:58):
his position on women inministry or baptism. He doesn't
agree with me, but he doesn'tthink I'm stupid for the devil.
He doesn't think the church willunravel because I believe what I
(49:18):
believe. Mhmm. I don't think thechurch is going to unravel and
fall apart because he believeswhat he believes. I think we'll
survive just fine. And I thinkthat is the opinion of some
Moral fabric of our denominationwill just fall apart if we don't
(49:39):
believe like they believe, If wejust don't adhere to certain
things.
And now and I think when when Igo to what I think is gonna
unravel and kill the church, itgoes back to, well, what I call
the works of the flesh inGalatians 5 where sexual
(50:00):
immorality is one of them, butit's enmity, party spirit,
divisions, hatred. Those worksof the flesh is what I think
will destroy the church. That'swhat I fear is happening, in
some cases.
T.J. (50:16):
Alright. We've lived in the fragileness of the church.
Let's talk about some of theCumberland Presbyterian greatest
gifts and you being a long timein service to the church and a
long time member of theCumberland Presbyterian Church,
(50:37):
you're able to have this visionand perspective of, you know,
the the various decades of ofbecause I think I think
denominations and churcheschange over time, then
personalities can change. Maybenot their mission, maybe not
(50:57):
their understanding of god, butapproaches can change. And so
with this collective knowledgeof the Cumberland Presbyterian
Church and the what do you thinkare some of the greatest gifts
this denomination offers to theworld?
Larry (51:18):
Well, we we one that that has been from the beginning is
the medium followed mediumtheology between Calvinism and
Armenianism, I think is ourgreatest contribution. We don't
work in order to be saved, butwe work because we are saved.
(51:39):
Works are important. Mhmm. Andwe have always been able to to
be fluid, to be able to adapt,to change, to different areas in
different different ways, and toappreciate the differences.
(52:05):
And this is really ourdenomination itself has become
we're getting our greatestgrowth outside the United
States. The mission field iswhere we are growing. They don't
worship the same way we do overhere. They don't feel the same
way we do, but we respect theirtradition and how they're
(52:26):
handling it and theirevangelistic zeal, and some of
that really should rub off on usso we get a little bit better at
that. And I think that is andand trying to incorporate that
into, you know, our world viewthat we actually have a view
(52:49):
that encompasses the world andnot just the United States.
T.J. (52:57):
Let's talk about books, music, movies, extracurricular
activities, professional acting,plays, things of that nature
that have over your lifetimespoken to you, to your faith,
and to your ministry?
Larry (53:18):
Well, in terms I've told you, John Maxwell, in terms of
preaching style, but leadership.If you wanna find out about
leadership, any book written byJohn Maxwell is a great book to
read. But one of the books backin the eighties that I read that
(53:42):
I think every minister shouldread is looking in the mirror by
Lyles Schaller. It has awonderful view of the different
sizes of churches and thedifferent leadership styles that
are needed for those churchesbecause they're different.
T.J. (53:58):
Mhmm.
Larry (53:58):
And it's kind of important to know the
difference. If you can pastorreally if you're a wonderful
small church pastor, you may notbe a wonderful big church, large
church
T.J. (54:08):
Yeah.
Larry (54:09):
Pastor. But if you are, how does it change
administratively? And the otheranother one as far as the church
is concerned is Rick Warren's,and this was back in the
nineties, middle nineties. ThePurpose Driven Church is a great
book to read, to cause you tothink. And I like Rick Warren.
(54:31):
I don't agree with himtheologically on some things,
but I like. I really like thatbook. Spirituality, the one and
all of those individuals havehad an impact on my life. And
most of the impact comes from myreading. But spirituality and
living the Christian life, JohnOrtberg, any book written by
(54:56):
John Ortberg.
My favorite is The Life You'veAlways Wanted. It's, spiritual
disciplines for ordinary people.One of the best first chapters
of any book I've ever read. Andit well, because I relate to it,
and you'd have to read it andyou'd understand what I mean by
that. But I still use that.
(55:19):
I go back. I reread great sermonillustrations. You want some
really good he's he's veryreadable. All of these
individuals are very readable.Easy to do.
But in terms of movies, I'm I Idon't have much of a social
(55:40):
life. I don't I don't do much ofof that almost well, in all of
my reading is nonfiction. Itit's really all related to my
job, to my profession, and Ienjoy that. Not that I think I
would enjoy fiction. I've neverreally gotten into that.
T.J. (56:07):
What is your, what's your favorite play? 1, to perform in,
2, to be in the audience?
Larry (56:17):
Oh, great question. I I I I the one that we did in the
professional acting company, wedid guys and dolls. See, that
this is dating me. I was SkyMasters. Yeah.
(56:43):
I really enjoyed that. West SideStory in high school, and
they've redone that.
T.J. (56:50):
Mhmm.
Larry (56:51):
Well, a couple of different times with themes on
that. But now I don't go to likeI said, I don't have much of a
social life. I don't go to toomany plays or movies.
T.J. (57:06):
So you you liked, musicals?
Larry (57:09):
Oh, I really do.
T.J. (57:11):
K.
Larry (57:11):
And that's kind of on my bucket list. Not be I I have no
desire to be in musicals anymoreor to age, really. I have no
idea. But I love going through Ido. Mhmm.
And someday, I'm gonna have timeto just kinda do that and to sit
back and enjoy it.
T.J. (57:33):
Alright, Larry. One more question. We earlier talked
about the gifts of theCumberland Presbyterian Church.
What has been the greatest giftthis denomination has given to
you?
Larry (57:51):
My parents. That is the greatest gift this denomination
has given to me. And mostpeople, a lot of people, maybe
not most people, that is one ofthe greatest gifts your parents
can give you is their faith. Andit's something I hope that I
(58:12):
passed along to to my children.Now we don't always agree,
theologically, But it's justthat that faith in in Christ and
knowing that he's gonna be withyou no matter what you're going
through.
But yeah. That and theopportunity to serve and and
(58:44):
primarily in churches. And I'vebeen blessed by every church
I've been in, and I haveappreciated being able to share,
and, I very much appreciatetheir willingness to hear what I
have to share. But every one ofthem, I have learned a great
(59:06):
deal from congregations, butindividuals in congregations
have had an impact on my life.Mhmm.
There are tremendous lay leadersin our churches that are having
a ripple effect, and they're noteven aware of the effect they're
having on the lives of theirpastor and the people around
(59:29):
them. And that's not why they dowhat they do. They do it out of
love for the Lord. And it's awonderful gift to be able to
receive that blessing from them.Oh, this is something every
minister knows in thinking aboutthat of how many times you will
(59:49):
go to a hospital, and you'regonna minister to them, and they
end up ministering to you Yeah.
And you come away far moreblessed than
T.J. (59:58):
Right.
Larry (59:59):
You were able to touch their life.
T.J. (01:00:01):
Yeah.
Larry (01:00:02):
And I've had a lot of those moments.
T.J. (01:00:04):
Me too.
Larry (01:00:05):
Yeah. They're very special.
T.J. (01:00:08):
I think also when from a minister's point of view, when
you go you've been called toserve a church, a specific
church, a local church. Youthink, oh, I'm gonna bring this.
I'm gonna be able to do that.I'm gonna all these different
things. But in reality, for me,in retrospect, in years back, it
(01:00:31):
that's never been the case.
It's always how much I actuallyreceived from the congregation
and the community. Was way morethan I ever brought to the
table, way more than I was everable to offer, the people that I
was called to serve. They endedup giving me way way much more
(01:00:52):
than I was ever able to give interms of guidance, care,
teaching, leadership. Whatwonderful people and a high
toleration level of the placesthat I've been. Patient,
tolerant, forgiving everywhereI've served.
Larry (01:01:13):
Now that was a humbling thing about my first church out
of seminary.
T.J. (01:01:20):
Mhmm.
Larry (01:01:22):
Was it was very humbling because I really didn't know
what I was doing. I wasclueless. I didn't had a lot of
education, but I was, you know.Mhmm. And they with what you
said is what made me think ofthat.
(01:01:43):
They were very patient andloving and kind and helping me
through that entire process. AndI'm very grateful, especially
for that first church. I thinkthe one I had in seminary at
Bolivar was wonderful too. Ithink your first church is
extremely important and has apowerful impact on your life and
(01:02:05):
whether you stay in ministry ornot. There are some mean
churches out there.
There are some mean pastors outthere. I was blessed with very
loving churches, and I'm in onenow. And I I feel blessed to be
where I am and grateful forthem.
T.J. (01:02:24):
Well, maybe those mean churches and mean, mean pastors
that you mentioned will findfind each
Larry (01:02:32):
other and and be able to do good
T.J. (01:02:36):
stuff together, you know. You can't have there's only so
much meanness you can have inone room. So
Larry (01:02:42):
I don't I don't know. I hope that's true. Well, I keep
praying that God will touchtheir hearts. Create of me a
pure art, oh god, please. Youknow?
A plain alright.
T.J. (01:03:01):
Well, there have been plenty of times that, folks have
found me not at my best and haveoverlooked those. And, so I
grant I attempt to grant that toall the folks that I encounter
in my daily walk. And maybe Icaught somebody when they were
not at their best. And I have tokeep that in mind.
Larry (01:03:25):
That's an important thing.
T.J. (01:03:28):
Larry, thank you for giving me part of your
afternoon.
Larry (01:03:32):
Well, thank you for inviting me to share. I
appreciate it.
T.J. (01:03:37):
It was good to reconnect. We have not connected like this
since the 19 nineties.
Larry (01:03:48):
Oh my.
T.J. (01:03:51):
This is the longest conversation that we have had
since the 19 nineties.
Larry (01:03:55):
Yeah. It's a long time and a long conversation. Yeah.
T.J. (01:04:03):
Well, I think the role the roles, they weren't different,
but, it was a pastor speaking toa candidate in ministry. So,
yeah, shame on you forencouraging me.
Larry (01:04:22):
I know. What what was I thinking? Okay. I can get a few
things right. I'll tell youthough.
T.J. (01:04:31):
Larry, thank you so much.
Larry (01:04:33):
Oh, thank you. I appreciate it.
T.J. (01:04:37):
Thank you for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road.
Please share this podcast withyour family, your friends, your
neighbors, your coworkers. Inclosing, I leave you with these
words from John Maxwell in hisbook Developing the Leader
Within You. We cannot choose howmany years we live, but we can
(01:05:00):
choose how much life those yearswill have. We cannot control the
beauty of our face, but we cancontrol the expression on it. We
cannot control life's difficultmoments, but we can choose to
make life less difficult. Wecannot control the negative
atmosphere of the world, but wecan control the atmosphere of
(01:05:21):
our minds. Too often, we try tochoose and control things we
cannot. But too seldom, wechoose to control what we can,
our attitude. Thanks forlistening.
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