Rian Puckett - God, Family, Church, And Basketball - Cumberland Road

Episode Transcript
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T.J. (00:03):
Welcome to the Cumberland Road, where I have conversations
on how one's faith impacts theirdaily life, their interactions
with others, and their vocation.I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. My
guest this episode is RianPuckett. Rian is the minister at

(00:25):
the Faith Hopewell and the NewHope Cumberland Presbyterian
Churches in the Batesville,Arkansas area. Rian also teaches
English and is the 7th through12th grade boys basketball
coach. Enjoy this faith journeywith Rian Puckett.

(00:50):
Rian, what number of, now let mestart over. Ryan, how many, jobs
do you have kicking right now?

Rian (01:01):
Well, you know, I was, you said that you mentioned that you
I think been up to 5. I don'tthink I'm at 5. So, of course,
I'm the pastor at FaithHopewell, here in Batesville,
Arkansas. Also the pastor of NewHope. So I have 2 churches that
I pastor.
New Hope is a smaller church outin the country. We do that when
at 9:30 in the morning, and thenI shoot over from there to here

(01:24):
at Batesville. It's about a 20minute drive, and service ends
at 10:15. I guess there's nothere's no pastor running over
very much. Service ends about10:15, 10:20.
I head over here.

T.J. (01:37):
Okay. Every week? Every Sunday?

Rian (01:39):
Every week. Every Sunday. Yeah. We don't have a midweek
service there, but but we dohave midweek stuff here at Faith
Hopewell in Batesville. And thenI also, teach English at Salem
High School.

T.J. (01:50):
Alright.

Rian (01:51):
And then I'm also the 7th grade through 12th grade
basketball coach, boysbasketball coach at Salem. And I
think that's it right now. Ithink I've only got 4, jobs, you
know. I you know, outside, notcounting presbyterial or
denominational duties or thingslike that. But, yeah, I think

(02:11):
I'm just at 4.

T.J. (02:12):
Wow. Four. Four paid positions. At least, some of
those are seasonal. Like, youdon't teach year round, do you?

Rian (02:23):
No. And I'm fortunate at Salem right now that that they
don't have, you know, a reallysuper heavy teaching load. I
only teach a couple of classesthere. Now I'm working there,
but it is, you know, theteaching side of things is is
seasonal. Basketball ispartially seasonal.
Of course, you know, the waythings are now, there's a lot of
stuff that's done in the summerand in the spring and things

(02:45):
like that if you wanna compete.But, but it it's it's partially
seasoned well. And I only teachI only coach, one sport. So
whenever I was working atbaseball, I coached 2 sports. In
addition in addition to beingthe basketball coach, for junior
high, I was also the head highschool girl soccer coach.
And so it it's kind of ablessing now that basketball

(03:06):
season ends. And at least afterschool for those next few
months, I get I'm I'm notcoaching sport in the evening.

T.J. (03:13):
I know each, state is different and maybe each
district or region is different.Where you're at in Arkansas as a
basketball coach, can you workwith the students? Can you work
with the players throughout theyear, do tournaments, or are you
limited to, the months of theyear to where you can actually

(03:35):
interact?

Rian (03:36):
It's pretty open. It's a couple of weeks during the
summer that they call it deadperiod. You can't do anything
with them then. And then, youknow, outside of that, it's
pretty open now. We're a smallschool, and so we try to really
work with the other coaches andstuff.
And, so, you know, we kinda haveto really pay attention to what

(03:56):
you're doing within yourprogram. Like right now, my guys
and the football program'sactually done the same thing. We
both gave all our guys a breakthis week. 95% of the schools
out in this area are probablypracticing right now. But we
gave our guys a complete breakthis week, kind of end of the
summer, take a breather, comeback fresh.
And then, you know, so you kindof sprinkle those in throughout

(04:19):
the year. Because I I thinkthere's definitely a diminished
return. There's a point whereyou're just grinding out every
day as a team. The kids get towhere they don't wanna be there.
Mhmm.
And the return just becomes lessand less. And and if you're not
careful, you'll you'll burn outthose batteries, and it's really
hard to to get them rechargedonce you do that. So so you as a

(04:39):
coach, you have to practice somewisdom on on how you manage your
kids when you have basically anunchecked access to them.

T.J. (04:47):
Well, I think science backs that up. Your body needs
to recover. And it's not justthe physical body. I think it's
the mind as well. I mean,coaching the fundamentals if the
fundamentals are there, I can,on my own time, maybe like even
today, go out and shoot somehoops.
But it's on my own, you know,and it's less casual. The coach

(05:10):
is not there lording over you,you know, dribble faster, you
know, whatever it is that thetechnique may may be. But, yeah,
I think that I think that we canget burned out and I I think
you're right. There arediminishing returns in sports
and gosh, in, well in manythings. Speaking of diminishing

(05:33):
returns, talk about a little bitabout the rush of serving 2
congregations in that mad dash,you know, from 1 church to the
other on Sunday morning.
So you're in high gear.

Rian (05:45):
Yeah. Sunday so so Sunday morning you know, we just moved.
And so we actually live closernow to the smaller church that's
out in Bethesda. A beautifulcountry, by the way. I I don't
know if people know much aboutthe area that I'm in, but the
area that I'm in has a lot ofleaks with a lot of, with a lot
of, like, CumberlandPresbyterian, you know,

(06:08):
patriarchs and matriarchs andstuff.
I mean, we, the story I'vegotten, I don't know if this is
true or not, so don't pull me tothis, but is that Hubert Morrow
either preached his first sermonor one of his first sermons at
this little church out in thecountry out there at Bethesda.
And so this area that we're inright here, but, anyway, I don't

(06:30):
know if this is first one or orone of his first ones. But, so I
used to live in Batesville, andso I would have to drive out
there to for that service andthen come back, to the service
here. But now I live, like, 7, 8miles away from the small
church. And so I basically leavemy house.
Yeah. I leave my house, youknow, try to get over there and

(06:52):
and then make sure I'm in the ontime for that. The, we we start
at 9:30, and I try to wrap up at10:15 and there's been probably
less than 5 times I've gone overto, like, 10:25. Mhmm. And but,
you know, you can't you can'tplay around with that very much.

(07:13):
And there's actually a familythat I pick up on my way from
that church to the other church.Okay. So I live, like, just,
like, like, quarter mile downthe road from the smaller
church. So I'll take the churchvan from Faith Oakwell, and I'll
usually drive in Saturday night,swap out vehicles, get that
church van so I can pick up thisother family after we finish
that morning service, and we wecome on. And I get here about

(07:37):
10:50, and, we have a worshipteam here at Faith Hopewell.
Blessed to have a really goodworship team. My son's on that
and some other, people on it aswell. And they we do a little
free worship music. We'llusually start about 10:50 or
10:55 with free worship music.And sometimes I play with them

(07:59):
and, sometimes I don't.
But, because I also play withthe worship team quite a bit.
But a lot of times, yeah,they're already playing. I come
in and they're already playingand stuff. And it's all it's all
good. It's we've settled intothe rhythm, but I know I know
that I don't have time to domuch else.
I gotta get out of I gotta getout of New Hope, get in the

(08:19):
church van, pick up the family,and we gotta get here and get
started.

T.J. (08:24):
So Alright. So we're gonna come back to, later in our
conversation about rest anddiminishing returns, you know,
in terms of being example toyour players and your team. And
that's me picking on you alittle bit, but also being
serious.

Rian (08:41):
No. It's a well, you know, it's a big challenge for me.
It's a big challenge for me.

T.J. (08:45):
But, we'll come back to that later. I do wanna ask you,
so with that rush between the 2congregations, impacts your
sermon preparation. And if notyour preparation, then certainly
your delivery. So how does thatshape your message in terms of

(09:05):
being concise, tight, you know,on point?

Rian (09:10):
Well, I I think it goes back and forth. I don't know if
I can tell if you cut out therefor a second. I think it goes
back and forth. So I will saythis is that, you know, here
lately at Faith, you know, Iprobably have some complaints
that I've been trying that I'vebeen doing a little bit longer.
We have a lot going on in thechurch at Faith Hopewell.
So a lot of times I won'tactually get started on the

(09:33):
sermon, you know, until 11:40.Mhmm. If that's the case, you
know, if it could go 12:05 or,you know, 12:10. I try to keep
it I try to keep it 25, and Iusually do pretty good with
that, but sometimes I don't. Iwill tell you this is that I I
typically preach the same text.
Okay? I've typically preparedthe same sermon for both

(09:58):
churches. Mhmm. The sermontypically ends up being
completely not completelydifferent, but the sermon ends
up being 40% different. And alot of that's just the context
that I'm delivering it.
And, you know, so I'm not reallya script reader. I will write a
sermon out a lot of times.Typically, I will either write a

(10:18):
sermon or I will write a prettydetailed outline Mhmm. Okay, of
what I'm doing. But it doesn'tmean that when I get up there to
preach that that's necessarilywhat I do.
And so a lot of times thecontext at the smaller church
will, will lead us in a littlebit different direction. You

(10:38):
know, they're in a differentplace than than my church at
Faith Oak Willis. Sometimes theneeds or sometimes the, you
know, sometimes what's going onin the church is very different.
Mhmm. And and so one church maybe dealing with the loss of
somebody.
And I may look at that sermon, Igo, this isn't the week for this
church. They don't this is notthis is not appropriate for this

(11:01):
week. And so that week, I'llusually you know, it will change
and do something different. But,yeah, if you listen to our if
you were to attend the smallerchurch, New Hope and, to hear
the sermon there and thenfollow-up and listen to me from
the other sermon, which Iactually have some people that
do. So I have some members atNew Hope that listen to me in

(11:24):
the morning Mhmm.
And then they will listen to mythe sermon again, and I'm sure
they they think, hey, that's notwhat he preached us. And I hope
they don't feel like it'sbetter. I don't know. I don't
know if you went to both ofthem. I don't know which one
people would feel like wasbetter.
I will say this though thatsometimes faith does benefit
from me having already preachedthe sermon at New Hope. Because

(11:45):
there's just some thingssometimes that I get into, I'm
like, ah, that took too long. Ineed I need to I need to trim
that back.

T.J. (11:52):
I follow a similar format as you. I don't preach, twice in
the same Sunday, but I have inthe past. And I needed that
manuscript or, you know, wellthought out thoughts, so to
speak. You know, it keep me ontrack. But even though that it's

(12:13):
there in writing, I stilldelineate from it, you know,
depending on where I'm at orreading the room or the
attention of of thecongregation.
And so, I need it, but I'm not,like, beholden to it a 100%. And
then, you know, some you know,you have that 20, 25 minutes,

(12:36):
that drive in between the 2. Andwhether we do it consciously or
unconsciously, you're kind oflike, okay, I'm gonna change
this. As you mentioned earlier,the story that I told could be
told in 3 minutes instead of 7.You know, just get to get to
that aspect or I'm gonna readmore of the biblical text

(12:58):
because in the first service,there wasn't enough context, you
know, and I needed to add and Ihave to go back and kind of add
to it.
Yeah. So at least for me, thethe sermon is always in flux and
I don't mean that in a negativeway, but I mean it's always
being shaped. It's a livingdocument in a way and I can go

(13:20):
back to it in 3 months or 3years and go, wow. Okay. I would
never preach that again.

Rian (13:30):
Have you ever preached a sermon? So I I I kept for a long
time, and I still keep most ofmy sermons on Google Docs or
something, but I had a series ofnotebooks, you know, where I
kept my sermons. And like Isaid, you go back and preach one
that that at the time was reallywell received. Mhmm. And people,
you know, I mean, you can tell.
I mean, you can tell sometimes,you know, You've seen the meme

(13:53):
where the guy's like, man, I'vepreached a great sermon, and
nobody liked it. And I preacheda terrible one, and everybody
said how great it was. I have noidea what I'm doing. You've seen
that. Okay.
Like, I feel like thatsometimes, but I but I but I
preach something that beforethat was like, man, that was
well received, and people weretalking about it. It's
conversation. And so a few yearslater, because I've been here
for 10 years now. And so I'vepreached this before. Right?

(14:18):
And I'll go back and I'll lookit up and I'll find it. And I'll
find the text in front of me. Ithink, what was I saying? I
don't even know. Like like atthis moment, you know, like at
this moment, looking at thosetexts and and, you know, I see
what I was saying.
I'm not saying I was wrong, butI look at it and I go, well, I

(14:39):
could it's telling my Internetstate connection's unstable, so
let me know if you can hear me.

T.J. (14:44):
Yeah. It it it's broken up a couple times.

Rian (14:46):
I wouldn't preach that again. Okay. I would never
preach that again. I'm here atthe church. I felt like that was
probably my best option.
Where I live out in Cushman.Okay? And we I mean, like, I'm
out there. K. I'm out there.
It's 25 minutes from Batesville.Alright. I mean, we have we have
bears. Okay? We had bears andcoyotes and rumors of mountain

(15:11):
lion, you know, department ofwildlife and games says we don't
have any, but everybody says wehave them.
And, you know, I mean, it's it'spretty wild country. It's right
right getting into the foothillof the Ozark Mountains. So
Alright. My Internet theresometimes just shuts down. So I
thought, well, I'll come intochurch.
That'll be that'll be better,but but if you I will say but,

(15:31):
no, just talking about the sternthing, like, you know, there's
definitely times I go back and Isay, I can't use that again.
Like, it was great for thatmoment. And it worked really
well for that moment, but evenusing the same text, like we've
just got to, we've got to go towhere the text leads us today.
And I think that's one of theneat things about scripture,
right? Is that how you do thestudy, the context of the

(15:55):
original text stays the same,the Greek stays the same, the
Hebrews stays the same.
All of that stays the same, butthen sometimes how it how it
hits in your situation where youare is just it's totally
different, totally unexpected.

T.J. (16:10):
Yeah. I think it also shows where we are in our study
and in our preparation, in ourpersonal lives and in our
callings. When we worked on asermon and delivered a sermon 3
years ago, we have certainlychanged. We've aged, you know,
maybe our our children havegotten older, our life
circumstances have changed, andyou go back and sermons in some

(16:32):
ways can almost be like a diary.I'm going and sometimes I don't
recognize where I was.
I just know that, woah, thiscontent was bad. Those poor
folks had to suffer through thismanuscript that I'm looking over
again, revisiting. Yeah. Butit's also been a good window as
well, where I was like, wow, Ididn't remember it being it

(16:54):
clicked, you know. And for me,it those clicks are few and far
between in in sermon deliverystudy and delivery.
And I like using the baseballanalogy. I struck out this
Sunday. Well, maybe that was asingle, but I never hit home
runs. And home runs are judgednot on necessarily the the

(17:18):
response of the listeners, butit's more of like how it flowed
and how it moved me. I like itwhen the sermons have actually
changed me in the process.
I now, through the study, I lookat that biblical text
differently through thepreparation of the sermon. How

(17:42):
inadequate I feel at times in,serving the church in that
capacity for sure. You know?What am I doing up here? You
know?

Rian (17:52):
Yeah. I think I think that the filling of inadequacy is
something that that I'vestruggled with a lot in
ministry. Mhmm. You know, theyou kind of you know, you you
know what your struggles are.You know, know your

(18:15):
deficiencies.
And, you know, you're up theremaybe preaching and you're
looking at however many peopleare there that Sunday, and
they're all looking back at you.Right? And they're only looking
at 1 person. You're looking at60 to a 100 or 200, whatever you
serve. I don't serve that.
You know, I serve, about 15 to20 at the smaller church. And

(18:39):
then here at faith, we, youknow, we run between 6085 or
something like that. Mhmm. Butthat's a lot of different
opinions that are beingprojected back at you, right? I
mean, that's a lot to take inwhen you're given this, you
know, and and, you know, soyou're doing that.
So you try not to dwell on that,but but at the same rate, you

(19:00):
know, definitely kinda fillyour, because because I do think
that something that's been hardfor me to get my mind around is
that is that I am a vessel. And,it's been hard for me to to I
don't wanna say accept that, butbut to be comfortable with that,

(19:21):
that that I that I'm just avessel that's being used at that
point. And that's humbling. It'shumbling, but it's also
sometimes for me has beenliberating. Mhmm.
Is that is that I don'tnecessarily have to be a perfect
vessel to accomplish what god'strying to do with me at that
point. So

T.J. (19:41):
I think of that more and very intentionally in the actual
preparation and study, becauseif I allow myself to do it on
during that time of worship, Ithink it would rattle me. Mhmm.
But in my preparation, I'll lookat it and I'll be like, and
especially if it's in a placethat you're actually serving,

(20:03):
you kinda know where people arethe longer that you're there and
what their walks are, maybe whatthey're currently facing or have
faced. And then I think thatinfluences how will how will
Mary hear this biblical text orthis story or this analogy that

(20:24):
I share. And so, for me, I thinkthose measurements are done in
the preparation.
I'm not saying that itinfluences, but it certainly
informs what what the manuscriptor the notes are going to say.
Because my ultimate goal is tobe able to share the good news

(20:47):
for the people to be impacted byit and actually changed and, you
know, transformed from week toweek to week.

Rian (20:56):
Well, you know, when you wrap your, and most ministers
I've talked to, share thiscommonality, but, you know, you
wrap your preparation prayer.And, and and and I for me, I'm
I'm so dependent upon thedirections that I take, in a
scripture because there aredifferent directions that you
can take with with scripture,different things to unpack,

(21:19):
different, you know, points tomake and things like that. And
I'm so dependent on being led bythe spirit in that preparation.
Mhmm. And, when I've listened tothe spirit, it's been better.
And when I've not, sometimesit's it's not. And that's that
that's a that's a fact. Yeah.

T.J. (21:41):
Well, how far back does your life go in terms of the
Christian faith? Did you come upin the family that you went to
church, as a child?

Rian (21:54):
Yeah. I did. And, I'm gonna kinda take this
opportunity to to share myjourney into the CP church, if
that's okay.

T.J. (22:01):
Yeah. Yeah.

Rian (22:04):
So growing up, I grew up, my dad was a preacher, and he
was, he had come out of theassembly god tradition. But but
growing up, we were anondenominational, house church,
actually, and about 20, 25people that attended. So I I
grew up in a very nontraditionalchurch setting.

T.J. (22:24):
Okay.

Rian (22:25):
Things were more

T.J. (22:26):
Did you worship in in your home, your family home?

Rian (22:28):
We did. Wow. We did. Sunday mornings. Sunday this is
what Sunday morning kinda lookedlike for me.
About 8 AM, 7:30, 8 AM, I'd hearmom and dad out there working.
They'd be cleaning the livingroom floor, sweeping, moppings.
One of my jobs was to set upchairs. We had some folding
chairs. We'd set up the foldingchairs.

(22:49):
We had a piano in the house.Everybody started coming in. Of
course, you fight over the, youfight over the choice seats,
which were like the love seat,the couch, and the you know?
Because you don't because thelast thing you wanna be is to be
stuck in one of the metalfolding chairs, you know, for a
while. And but there were someladies in the church, who had

(23:11):
like, they had dibs on some ofthe seats.
Right? So there was a lady thatsat, like, left side of the
couch. She didn't touch thatone. That was that was miss
Tatum's spot. And then there wasanother, like you know?
But there were about 2 or 3spots that if you could get in
there and get them, they'd letyou as a kid keep them.
Otherwise, you ended up in themiddle chairs. And it was kind
of a nontraditional orthodoxteaching. I mean, it wasn't

(23:33):
anything no. But it was kind ofjust an you know, you're seeing
a lot of these pop up now ashouse church type settings.
And so that's what I grew up in.And I really didn't you know, I
I attended a a Methodist youthgroup and, you know, so I I,
made my professional faithexcept for Christ about 8 years

(23:54):
old and was baptized in thePiney River out there outside of
Centerville, Tennessee. I don'tknow if you know anything about
that. So so that was the churchI I grew up in. Whenever some
kinda talk about my journey intothe CP church.
And my journey into the CPchurch, I tell people, was was

(24:14):
largely mercenary. Okay? So andand and it comes in several
different stages, but so Ron, mybrother Ron, a lot of people in
the CP church know Ron.

T.J. (24:26):
And and just for clarification for those who
don't, so Ron is your olderbrother. Do you have other
siblings?

Rian (24:33):
I do. I have 3 brothers.

T.J. (24:34):
Okay.

Rian (24:35):
And and there's a big wide age range. So so my oldest
brother is, like, 20 somethingyears older than I am. Okay. And
then Ron and I kinda grew uptogether, but he's still about 6
years older than I am. My other2 brothers were out of the
house.
That's Randall and Roger. But,anyway, I, so Ron, whenever I
was in 7th grade and basketballhas always been interwoven into

(24:56):
our family. Right? And we werewe are a basketball family.

T.J. (24:59):
Alright. So god first, church, family

Rian (25:03):
And then family basketball. And basketball was
woven into our fam basketballwas what we did together as a
family. Mhmm. Does that makesense? Like, it was it you
couldn't separate basketballfrom our family more than you
could basketball andthanksgiving meal.
Yeah. Basketball was what we didtogether. Okay? So it was
interwoven into our familydynamics. And so Ron was a

(25:25):
really good player.
And, Ron had an opportunity outof high school, to attend
Bethel, which, of course, was aCumberland Presbyterian School.
That was really the first myfirst introduction to, the
Cumberland Presbyterian Church.He He was

T.J. (25:45):
also Had your family even heard of Bethel it was a college
then, Bethel College.

Rian (25:50):
It was. And so we had actually attended I do remember
attending a game there when Iwas about 8 or 9 because a
friend of ours from Missouri wasplaying for what's now line
college.

T.J. (26:01):
And

Rian (26:01):
they were playing against Bethel college. It's the only
time we've ever been there.Bethel was not on our radar at
all. Ron ends up at Bethelplaying basketball at Bethel.
And coincidentally, he also andand he had dated Amy a little
bit in high school, but he hestarts dating Amy pretty

(26:21):
seriously in college.
And she just happens to attend alittle Kremlin Presbyterian
Church called Swan CreekCumberland Presbyterian Church.
Some people may know where thatis. It's right outside of
Centerville. And, you know, itwas a really small church.

T.J. (26:36):
Okay. So so Ron and Amy, Ron, your older brother, they
knew each other. They're marriednow. Right?

Rian (26:44):
Right. And they dated in high school.

T.J. (26:45):
So So they knew each other from school. Alright. So the 22
of them go out to BethelCollege. And this is setting up
the stage I'm trying to bringfolks up who may not know you.
This is setting up the stage ofhow you got connected to Yes.
Bethel and then CumberlandPresbyterian. Alright. Go ahead.

Rian (27:02):
Alright. Yeah. So connecting it altogether. So,
anyway, so, Ron, so so I kindayou know, I start going up and
attending Bethel, not attendingschool there. I go up to visit.
Mhmm. So I'm in, like, 7ththrough 10th grade. I would go
up and it'd be spring break forme, and I'd go up and stay 3, 4
days with Ron. Or it'd be fallbreak, and I'd go stay a couple

(27:23):
days with Ron. And so I kindagot familiar and comfortable
with Bethel.
And plus, obviously, we'regoing, you know, 2 nights a
week. We're driving to watchBethel play. When I tell you
basketball was what we did, youknow, I'm I might play a junior
high game on Monday. On Tuesday,we'd leave and go watch Ron at
Christian Brothers. I play ajunior high game on Thursday.
On Friday, we'd leave orwhatever days they were playing,

(27:45):
we'd leave and go watch Ron playUnion at Bethel. Okay. That's
what we did.

T.J. (27:49):
And and those aren't you know, for those who may not know
Middle Tennessee area and WestTennessee area, those aren't
necessarily short drives.

Rian (27:56):
No. No. No. We're looking like 2 hour drives. Pick me up
as soon as practice ended forbasketball.
We're leaving. We get there,like, 5 minutes left for the
girls' game. We'll watch Ronplay. And then we're driving 2
hours back that night so I canbe at school the next morning.
Yeah.
So we could go through all this,we did that for several years.
Well, of course, Ron and Amy aredating and stuff like that.

(28:18):
Well, I get up to about myjunior year of high school, and
I think it was my junior year.And so I play a little bit of
music. I know just enough to bedangerous.
And yeah. Yeah. People don'tlike to play with me. I'm best
on my own. Like, sometimes myrhythm kinda heads off in its
own direction and stuff likethat.
My son is much, much better thanI have. Okay? But I had a

(28:40):
keyboard. I've got the keyboardfor Christmas a couple of years
earlier. This is like just oneof those it was a nice keyboard
to have, like, personally, butit was a, you know, it was kinda
one of those it was aRadioShack, you know, not like a
Korg or a Yamaha or anythinglike studio or concert.
It was it was a little keyboard.And the Swan Creek Cumberland

(29:02):
Presbyterian Church neededsomebody to play the keyboard
for their services. They didn'thave any music. Okay? So Amy
knew that I was had startedplaying the keyboard.
And so her dad was, I think, anelder at the church. You know,
her family was connected withthe church, and they asked if I
would be interested in coming toplay the keyboard at the Swan

(29:25):
Creek Common PresbyterianChurch. And listen, this was
huge. They were gonna pay me $35a Sunday to do it. Alright.
And you're a

T.J. (29:34):
junior in high school?

Rian (29:35):
I'm a junior in high school. Alright. Junior in high
school. And I played basketball.You know, when you're playing
high school sports, like, it'shard to get a job and stuff like
that.
And so I worked on Saturdays formy brother, Roger, at the Dairy
Queen, and I started going onSundays, and I would go play the
keyboard at 1 creek, comingPresbyterian Church. And and,
you know, and I missed my homechurch services. Like like, the

(29:56):
timing just, you know, didn'tlike so that was that was
basically where I went to churchfor my junior and senior year.

T.J. (30:02):
You went from a metal folding chair standing up in
your own living room for worshipto a nice little cushioned,
piano stool?

Rian (30:14):
Well, I don't know exactly what it was. I don't remember. I
think I had to bring my ownstool if I remember right, but
there was a stool there.

T.J. (30:20):
Okay.

Rian (30:21):
But I don't know if you've ever been to the Swan Creek
Common Presbyterian Church.These people were just they were
beautiful people, but there wasonly about 8 or 10 of them. And
it was a very small church, andit's an it's an old country
church. Like, you're you know?So it it was a very, yeah,
completely different environmentfor me transitioning from, like,
you know, kind of a, we were nonwe were my my parents' church

(30:45):
was a a nondenominational, butdefinitely charismatic type
worship service to this out inthe country, 10 people.
And and the pastor at the time,I don't remember there was a
order of pastors. I rememberTerry Kinnaman was one of them.
Heflin. Reverend Heflin was one.There was a list of guys that,
you know, that, that were there.

(31:07):
But but one of the pastorswanted like, he had a very
structured service, and he waspicking hymns to go with his
sermon. Okay? I didn't knowthese hymns, and I was not very
good anyway. Okay? My mom washaving to, like, go with me and
map out the chords.
And and I would I would spendall week practicing to go in

(31:30):
there on Sunday to play. And Imean, I was very much beginner.
Okay. Very much beginner. And sofinally finally, I talked to him
and he said, hey, I don'tremember which which if it was
if it was reverend Kenneman oror reverend, but they said, Hey,
why don't you just pick out thehelps?
Pick out the ones you can play.Okay. And so so I subjected the

(31:50):
people of Swan Creek, CumberlandPresbyterian Church to, a rough
2 years of music. But but butthat was my so that was kind of
my introduction into the CPchurch. That was the 1st CP
church service I had everattended.
Mhmm. Was was there for those 2years. So then I get of course,
I get out of that, playingbasketball, you know, hoping to

(32:12):
pay for college with basketball.And this was kinda during the
time, like, we talked thatBethel was going through a lot
of ups and downs. They'dactually cut out scholarships
for basketball for 2 or 3 years,but my class was the 1st class
they're gonna do, like, bigscholarships worth again.

T.J. (32:26):
Okay.

Rian (32:27):
And, and so Bethel was really where I wanted to go
because I was comfortable withit. I've been there with Ron,
but but not for commonPresbyterian reasons. Okay? Just
primarily that's where he wasand other people and stuff. And,
so things worked out.
We're coming out of my senioryear. I was offered a
scholarship at Bethel. And so Itook it. And so as I say, my

(32:52):
connection with the CP churchwas was largely mercenary. We
started with, you know, beingbeing offered a job, like,
basically as a high school kidto play for a CP church, being
offered a scholarship to go to aKremlin Presbyterian School,
attended Bethel, made friendswith a lot of Kremlin
Presbyterians, still never or atthat point, I would never

(33:13):
consider myself a CP.
I was friends with some, madefriends with some more
fraternity. I joined phi deltasigma. And so there was that was
a lot of current presbyteriansthere, but still not current
presbyterian. You know, lovechap, love I mean, there was a
lot of people I loved that didthe church Mhmm. And got out,

(33:34):
actually was out and hadfinished my bachelor's and had
finished my master's and wasmoving over to Dyersburg to work
in the steel industry.
And I was gonna work over in thesteel industry. And I've been
wrestling for a long time withthe call of ministry and had

(33:54):
actually accepted the call ofthe ministry when I was, like,
13 and then promptly spent thenext decade of my life, like,
just absolutely saying no way.No way. No way. Not gonna do it.
Not gonna do it. Not gonna doit. And so but at but at this
point, I've gotten a little bitbetter music, not a lot better,
but that was a little bitbetter. And And and so I was

(34:18):
moving out to Dyersburg and afriend of Michelle's that's my
wife, Michelle. I met her atBethel.
Okay. And he comes up to her oror her friend's boyfriend, and
that was Jacob Harwell and SamHarwell, and they were in the CP
church. I believe Sam stillpastors the CP church. And they
said, hey, you know, mybrother's church is looking for

(34:41):
somebody to do music. He said,you're moving out to Dyersburg,
would you be willing to do it?
And so I've been wrestling withcall to ministry, and I thought,
well, maybe this will kinda getme off the hook. Okay? Like,
I'll if I go do music at thischurch, maybe I'll it'll get me
off the hook. Mhmm. And,

T.J. (34:58):
And and the this struggle is all internal. Like

Rian (35:01):
Oh, internal. Yeah. Okay. I haven't even told Michelle at
any point that I haven't evenwrestled the call to ministry.
Okay?
And so I thought, well, I'mthinking, well, maybe this will
get me off the hook. So I I doit. I go out there and try out,
so to speak. And they like theylike to tell the story. It's the
church.
So just once again, it happenedto be a CP church. And they like

(35:22):
to tell the story because Ishould go out there, and they
and I've got this whole thingmarked up. I'm gonna play the
piano and, you know, dumb me,it's it's it's a song written
with, like, a lot of minors andstuff. And I'm gonna play the
piano, and I'm gonna do thisreally, like, kinda emphatic
thing. I'm gonna play, like, onechord and go into the song.
Right? So so, anyway, so I playmy one chord, and the immediate

(35:45):
thing that I realized is thatthis piano that I'm playing on
has not been been has could nothave been tuned in, like, the
last 5 years. I don't know howlong it's been, but it was like
it was way out of 10. And Ithink, oh, man. I got a problem.
Because I don't even recognizewhat was just played. Okay? And
I'm not that good anyway.Alright? So I'm like, I've got
so I look over across, and I'vegot this old organ sitting over.

(36:07):
I've never played an organ, butI kinda know in theory what you
do. Mhmm. And so I go over and Ifinish my trial on the organ. I
just push the pedal down andplay the chords. And, but they
they asked me back after a fewmonths.
And,

T.J. (36:20):
they needed 90 days to think about it.

Rian (36:22):
Yeah. That was that's kind of an inside joke between us and
them. They I I assumed theydidn't want me back, so I just
left. Mhmm. They assumed I wascoming back, so they didn't
they, you know, after severalweeks, like, they called me.
They're like, hey. You're notcoming back. And I was like, I
didn't think y'all wanted meback. Okay. So like, so about 2
months have passed.
Okay. But so I started workingat this this another once again,

(36:43):
started working at the CPchurch. And it was while I was
there that I accepted the callto the ministry. And and so
whenever I did that, the pastorwho was there, I said the pastor
who stayed in supply there, aguy named Chris Marks, he he
asked me. He said, well, what doyou wanna do?
He said, you know, he wouldbecause he was not a common
Presbyterian. He just worked alot at the CP church, but he was

(37:04):
running a baptist tradition. Hesaid he said, you need to decide
what you wanna do. Do you wannabe a, you know, do you wanna
preach in the KremlinPresbyterian church or or or
what do you wanna do somethingelse? And so I spent quite a bit
of time going and at that point,really going and looking at the
confession of faith and saying,okay, if I'm gonna if I'm gonna
be a candidate for the ministryof the CP church, then I need to

(37:25):
know that I'm comfortable withthe doctrines of the CP church.
Mhmm. And so that was really myfirst time dive in to this
confession of faith and, see if,you know, I was comfortable with
it. But yeah. So, mercenary, letme add a little something to
this. I don't think it's kindarambled.
But so after all of that, ofcourse, you know, my family, a

(37:45):
lot of people in the in the, youknow, no Kremlin Presbyterian
that I know. Right? Except formy my brother, Ron, you know,
being, you know, being marriedin the city church and stuff. So
one day, I was talking with acousin, and he said, well, how'd
you get up in the CumberlandPresbyterian Church anyway? And
he said that was you know, hesaid that's a lot different than

(38:06):
than, you know, your dad and andpeople, stuff like that.
I was like, well and I kindatold the story. But what I
didn't realize is this. Okay?And this kinda brings it all
back to me, is that I had alwaysheard the church that my dad
attended as a kid, and I'dalways just heard the first part
of it, but they never they nevergo to the full deal. And the so

(38:28):
the church that my dad attendedup until the point where he
started preaching on his own,but this was our home this was
my grandmother's home church.
This was the church she always,went to. Was the Elk Creek
Conant Presbyterian Church rightoutside of West Plains. And I
had just always heard itdescribed as Elk Creek. Like my

(38:49):
aunts and people would say, oh,yeah. You know, you know, we
remember when we did this out ofElk Creek or we did this out of
Elk Creek, but it was the ElkCreek Cumberland Presbyterian
Church, that my mom that mygrandmother was attended, my dad
and all his siblings.
That's where they all acceptedChrist. Mhmm. And and so in kind
of a unexpected way, you know,even though I got here a lot

(39:11):
differently, you know, the CPBchurch has definitely been part
of my heritage even before Iknew it was.

T.J. (39:16):
Yeah. Yeah. How could you be influenced in something you
didn't even know?

Rian (39:20):
Mhmm.

T.J. (39:21):
Well, let let's circle back to the earlier times of
your life in terms of yourprofession of faith at 8, if you
guys are worshiping you guys, asin your family, is worshiping in
the home, you didn't have muchof an option.

Rian (39:40):
No. I so so this is where I really appreciate my dad and
and kinda how he raised us. Inever dad was yeah. I mean, I
was definitely inundated inchurch. Okay?
When we weren't having church inour home, we were attending

(40:01):
other churches. So we would alot of times on Wednesday night,
we'd go drop in at the Nazarenechurch or we drop in at the at
the Baptist church or you know?So we attended a lot of
different churches. Whenever Iwas growing up, I saw a lot of
different traditions and and andthings like that. I've never
went to a CP's church, but Iattended, you know, a lot of
different churches.

(40:22):
We would attend revivals andthings like that at different
churches and things like that.And and while, certainly, I
think the, like, the message ofthe gospel was preached nonstop.
Right? I mean, you know, in indiscipleship and stuff like
that. One of the things I reallyappreciate is just kind of being
in that environment and justmarinate in it.

(40:42):
Okay? But one of the thingsabout my dad was that dad dad
and and he died when I I was 18.So I didn't really ever get to
have these conversations as a, amature adult with them. So you
know, and I really regret that.I wish I'd been able to.

(41:02):
But looking back, what I see isthat dad very much sort of let
each one of us kind of developin our own way Mhmm. With a
guiding hand. You know what Imean? Like, there were things I
was allowed to do and things Iwas not allowed to do. Mhmm.
When we went to church, I wasexpected to be there. But it was

(41:25):
very much, you know, he kinda hekinda the way he guided, really,
really to me, as I look back atit kinda showed the dependence
on the holy spirit. There was Inever remember like a pressure
to accept Christ.

T.J. (41:40):
Mhmm.

Rian (41:40):
You know, there was never that that this, even that
pressure, to it was like when Iwas a junior in high school, I
was thinking about the this withmy son the other day, he was
pretty gifted musically andstuff. And I thought, how
comfortable would I be like withhim as a junior in high school,
giving him permission to leaveour home church and to go
somewhere else and to serve. Youknow? And and so those were all

(42:03):
things that that I reallyappreciate now, you know, seeing
my dad kinda well, I know he wasresolute in his, and I know,
that he had concerns about me.And I know this because of a
letter that we found sometimelater.
But, you know, I know that hehad concerns about me. I know he
was concerned about all of hiskids. Mhmm. But he never he he

(42:26):
never really set on us with ademand of this is what you're
gonna do.

T.J. (42:31):
Right.

Rian (42:31):
You know, each one of us was allowed to come to Christ in
our own time to make thatprofession and and really to, I
won't say, to participate as wewanted to, but to to kinda grow
in it according to kinda wherewe were.

T.J. (42:49):
Mhmm.

Rian (42:49):
And and I think talking with my older brothers, they
kinda bear witness to this withbecause they were adults, you
know, whenever he passed away.And I think it was kinda the
same with them. Like, he healways kinda was available, but
but I don't think overbearingMhmm. With them, even as adults
and and maybe not being where hewould have liked them to have

(43:10):
been as adults. So

T.J. (43:13):
What did your friends and fellow students think as you
were growing up in high schoolof, one, you had basketball
skills, but you also you didn'tworship in these mainline
Methodist, Presbyterian,Baptist, you know you know,

(43:34):
worship was you didn't have toleave the house. Literally did
not have to leave the house.

Rian (43:41):
I've got a varied amount. Yeah. That's an interesting
question. I've never been askedthat one, but it's a good one.
That's a really good question,actually.
That was the, so some thought itwas awesome. Some people thought
it was awesome. They were justlike, oh man, that's awesome.
I'll tell you I'll tell you acouple of funny stories in a
second. Okay.

T.J. (44:02):
Alright.

Rian (44:03):
Some people thought it was awesome. I think some people
thought we were in a cult. Ithink some people definitely
thought we were in a cult. Youdid not have a lot of house
churches back then. And thewhole reason that we stayed in
the house, and I remember this,the whole reason we stayed in
the house, there was actuallysome people that that raised the
question of, well, why don't weget a building?

(44:24):
And the thing that dad basicallysaid was, look, you know, the
the type of ministry that we'reable to do with not having a
billing expense, we couldn't doif we had a building expense.
Some people thought we wererich. We were, you know, because
they just assume like the pastormakes all this money. Dad made
no money. Okay?

(44:45):
We we were very we were actuallyvery, very poor. Mhmm. He worked
in assortment of jobs. He workeddoing stuff like mowing grass
and sweeping off, parking lotsfor gas stations and, you know,
and things like that. We wereactually, you know, pretty low
income, very low income.
Some people thought we wererich. Okay. Because of that,
because he was a pastor, ofcourse, getting all the money.

(45:07):
Right? You know?

T.J. (45:09):
That's the funniest thing you've said all day.

Rian (45:12):
Yeah. Of course. He's getting all the money, but I
think people look like reallythought like, Hey, they're just
like, they're taking an offeringplate, man. They're getting it
all. But, and then, like, somepeople were really, like, kinda
suspicious, you know, of ofthings like that.
And, a few people attended andand the people that attended it
really enjoyed it. Yeah. Becauseit was a completely different

(45:34):
vibe. It was a completelydifferent, atmosphere. It was
relaxed.
Now I don't think it would be asstrange now. Right? I don't
think I think now people wouldbe like, oh, yeah. You know? But
back then, it was very kindaanti cultural thing to to to go
to worship.
And, but I'll tell you a couplefunny stories. So like I said, I
know I know dad had to know Iwas doing this. Okay? So, like,

(45:59):
I've told you, it's it's a, youknow, it's a kind of a
charismatic, nondenominational,but but definitely with
Pentecostal roots and, you youknow, and and they put it was
called the house of prayer andthey took that very seriously.
Mhmm.
Okay. It's called the house ofprayer. And they would go and on
on Sunday nights was was justprayer. K. Sunday nights was

(46:24):
just prayer.
And they might they would startpraying and take prayer requests
for 15 or 20 minutes and stuff,and I was required to be there.
Like, I was there. I was I wouldhave to sit in there, and I was
there and stuff. And then atabout, you know, 5 15 or 5 20,
they'd start praying. K.
And so the way the tradition waswas they'd all pray together.

(46:45):
They then they'd pray out loudkinda, you know, just
temporarily altogether andstuff. And you could tell, like,
like, the prayer meeting wouldbuild. Right? It would build.
And it hit a point after about15 minutes where, like, they
were praying. Like, everybodywas in it. And I would pray.
Like, I would I will I I mean,I, you know, I would go in there
and pray and stuff. I'm a 13year old kid.

(47:07):
You know? It's hard for me topray for an hour. And I would
kind of after about 15 minutesis really start raising that
crescendo. You know? And I'dkinda lift my eye up.
I'd look over at my best friendand kinda make eye contact. I
give him a little head nod. Andso whenever I was a kid, I'll,

(47:27):
my brother we lived in a reallyneat place, there in Hickman
County. We had a creek and wehad woods. And but one of the
coolest things about my housewas that my older brother, after
he bought a business and stuff,he built a basketball court for
me and my brother.
And, so we kinda give a head nodor whatever kinda nod. We'd get
up and tiptoe out. Right? We'dtiptoe out. And, we'd kinda go

(47:50):
through the back door and we'dtiptoe out when we'd spend the
next 30 minutes playing footballor playing basketball or playing
whatever.
We really thought we and thenwe'd, like, look at our watches,
go back in, you know? And sowe'd we'd tiptoe back in. We'd
tiptoe back in and then we we'dkinda sit down quietly. And, and
so then we'd wait and sureenough, about 5 minutes later,

(48:12):
everybody start getting up, youknow, I know they knew what we
were doing. Like, like I knowthey knew what we were doing,
but they, they didn't sayanything to us about it.
And the other thing that wouldhappen sometimes during our
prayer meeting was you know? Andthis would typically happen,
like, hang on, be praying, buteverybody would kneel down to
pray, you know, individuallykinda pray. And if I was really

(48:34):
tired, there was, like, 2 or 3times I fell asleep. Okay? I
fell asleep.
This happened a few times. Andso everybody's praying, and I
was praying, and I fell asleepin that position. And I woke up,
and everybody else was sittingup looking at me. Okay. And
they're crying while I'm stilland I thought, man, I I said I

(48:55):
said, hope they think that I wasreally, really, really getting
into this.
But, I I'm very grateful forthat church. They were, it it
was an amazing place to to bementored. And, and like I said,
they just kinda they they justkinda let you soak in in the

(49:18):
spirituality and soak in theteaching and soak in, you know,
discipleship. And, you know, andthere wasn't a lot of pressure.
There wasn't because it was soinformal, because it was a very,
you know, there was not a lot oforganization

T.J. (49:33):
Yeah.

Rian (49:34):
In the sense that dad was the pastor. If they had
something that they wanted todo, they would vote on it as a
church, but we didn't have aformal membership. Mhmm. There
were no there were no members ofthe house of prayer. There were
people who attended the house ofprayer.
So you could attend you could bea member at First Baptist and be
a member of the house of prayer.You know what I mean? If you

(49:55):
were attending and you were partof it and one of the things I
really appreciated was becausethey didn't have a building
expense. And I and I saw them dothis. There would be somebody
that would run into tougheconomic times.
Somebody, you know, somebody inthe community or somebody would
really run into tough economictimes. And I've seen that church
of 15 people, 20 people take ontheir bills for a month and pay

(50:21):
their bills for a month becausethey did not have their own
bills that they had to pay. Youknow what I mean? So they were
able to say, hey. We're gonnadesignate we're gonna pay their
rent.
We're gonna pay theirelectricity. We're gonna pay
their water, and we're gonna letthem be on their feet. And I've
and I've thought so many times,one of the things I've struggled
with in churches with ourmassive infrastructure is how

(50:44):
much of what we're raising goesto perpetuate ourselves, and and
it becomes limited in ministry.And and so for me having
witnessed it on the other side,that's been something I've
struggled with sometimes. Sobut, yeah, it was it was a it
was different.
It was definitely different. Itdefinitely, I think, shaped who
I am, while I'm and and peopleprobably pick that up for me,

(51:06):
like, while I'm definitelyappreciative of the Kremlin
Presbyterian, structure. Mhmm.Because I've seen the other side
of that too. And I I won't gointo that too, but I but after
my dad died, I've seen what canhappen in a church like that
without leadership.
Mhmm. You know what I mean?Without structure, without
rules, without, you know, thingslike that. And, but but I think

(51:27):
people can probably pick that upfrom me. Like, I'm a little bit
of a loose cannon.
I probably make people a littlenervous. And and, yeah, part of
it probably has to do with withwith with my brain. Yep.

T.J. (51:37):
I think there's a lot to be said in a living room setting
or in a home setting. The waythat things are arranged to
worship, you know, is typicallya circle.

Rian (51:49):
You're exactly right.

T.J. (51:50):
And in a more traditional environment, church wise,
everybody is facing the sameway. To look at your brother and
sister in Christ in the eyes andor you're all yeah. To look at
each other that way, I thinkit's harder to ignore the

(52:12):
realities of of that communityof faith, whether it's 15 or a
150, to look in the eye ofsomebody across the living room
and to be in especially inprayer time, and to be able to
hear of their need Mhmm. It it'sdifficult to ignore. You can't
say, well, I wasn't there or Ididn't hear it or no, I mean,

(52:36):
we've chosen to participate ornot.
I think the the level of studyand even allowing dialogue in in
a sermon or a Bible study lendsitself, because I imagine what
you do 2 times on Sunday,there's only one person

(52:58):
speaking. It's you. And in aliving room setting, in a circle
setting, to be able to go, wait,Ryan, could you say that again?
I didn't hear it. Or could yougo deeper?
You you called it the soakingWas it soaking in the
spirituality? There of beingallowed to soak in. I think it's

(53:22):
not only the scripture, but Ithink it's that community as
well. Mhmm. And if you fall ifyou fall asleep, you can't hide
apparently.

Rian (53:30):
Yeah. You know, but I'll tell you this. Like, I'll tell
you this. Like, I know I knowthose and and I know they were
looking at us with wisdom Mhmm.You know, being older and
understanding.
But, you know, I I reallyappreciate the the guidance of
of those ladies. And primarilyladies. There wasn't there were
not my dad and occasionallythere'll be some other men in

(53:52):
there, but I really appreciatethe guidance of that that
community. You mentioned acouple of things. You're exactly
right.
We were set up in a circle. Eventhe middle folding chairs that
we set up completed the circle.Mhmm. And, our living room was a
multipurpose room, very smallhouse. I live in the house.
Our house was less than a 1000square feet. But the way dad had

(54:15):
built it was basically it wasbasically 2 bedrooms and then
one big open room. Okay. Thatwas the living room, kitchen,
and dining room. And so thechairs would kinda complete that
circle.
And then dad, one of the thingsthat dad was really good about
was allowing dialogue during thesermon. Mhmm. He would even
allow people to question him, toquestion his statement, to to

(54:40):
not to challenge him in adisrespectful way, but to to you
know? And so there I saw that.Like, growing up, I saw that.
I saw people disagree and say,wait a minute. What about this?
What about this? And and thensometimes that would open up.
And dad dad kinda referencedhimself.
He he he kinda said in his lateryears, they saw himself as more
of a teacher than a preacher.And and sometimes I I feel that

(55:05):
way as well. But the thedialogue and that stuff I wanna
tell you something else on on aless serious note. I wanna tell
you where the struggle is,though. Okay?
Tell you where the struggle is.The struggle is when your mom's
cooking fried chicken in in thekitchen while church is going on
on Sunday. Alright? That's thestruggle. It's it's when it's

(55:26):
12:15 and you smell that chickenfrying in the oven or baking in
the oven.
And you're like, oh. It wasdifferent. It was different, but
it it was really it was good.Yeah.

T.J. (55:39):
Well, let's talk about your calling into ministry.
Ryan, why were you putting itoff for so long?

Rian (55:50):
You know, I saw I I tell you, I saw 1

T.J. (55:54):
It sounds accusatory. I don't mean

Rian (55:56):
it at that point. Percent. A 100%. It's accurate. It's
accurate.
And and my son has actually justrecently accepted the call in
the ministry. Alright. And, hehas he we're we're yet to send
him we're sending the letterright now from the session to
presbytery. So he's at the verybeginning stages of it, but I'm
really I'm really proud. Sorry.
My phone's going crazy overhere. I'm really proud of him

(56:19):
for doing that because I was notable to do that at that age.
Mhmm. And I think that part ofthe reason

T.J. (56:25):
He's gonna use that against you, by the way, if he
listens to this.

Rian (56:28):
Oh, yeah. He's he's he's, he he he does better than me in
a lot of ways. But so I had seena lot of church hurt. I had
seen, I had heard one of thereasons we ended up in Tennessee
was because of church hurt. Myfamily was actually from West

(56:50):
Plains from Missouri, and and mydad, like I said, was was a
pastor and had had a prettysuccessful ministry.
I remember, growing up, he had aradio show. Oh, wow. That yeah.
He had a radio show. This was avery good preacher.
Now I've heard people in ourfamily say they, you know, they
said they they're like, the restof y'all are all whatever.

(57:13):
They're like, you know, nobodywe haven't heard anybody preach
like your dad. Mhmm. And it'sjust you know, so he's a very
good preacher. But he was alsovery he was very firm in what he
believed.
And so sometimes sometimes thatplaced him at odds with people
or or things like that. I hadseen even in even in our house

(57:34):
church, and it was it was a goodthing. It was a wonderful thing,
but I had seen some chart hurt.I'd seen, I'd seen what happened
behind the curtains. Right?
I'd seen dad really hurt. I'dseen dad struggle. I'd seen
these things. And then Imentioned also the joke that was
being made earlier. Peopletalking about us making a lot of
money.
I knew the I knew the reality. II knew we had no money. Okay? I

(57:57):
knew we had no money. And when Itell you we had no money, I
mean, we we were we were verypoor.
And because dad was good withhis hand, because they were
resourceful, we kinda got arounda lot of that. But but but, you
know, I knew that. So I thinklike any kid, you know, I want I
want success. Right? You know,so I'm gonna see some monetary

(58:23):
success.
I wanna see I want to be, youknow, I wanna be something else.
And I would've probably doneanything. I tell people this,
and people kinda look at me likeI'm I'm terrible. And I'm like,
listen. It's just who I am.
And one of the things I've hadto become more comfortable with
is being who I am. But I'm justlike, I'm telling you, I would

(58:46):
have done anything other thanpreach. I would have been a rock
caller with 2 hands 40 hours aweek other than preach. And and
so I didn't really have I I wasvery much a a gentleman in this.
I mean, I told you I I was I Iwas reluctant in doing this.

(59:08):
Went through high school, I hada lot of success with sports and
things like that. I was prettygood at book studies and I
thought I can go do something, Ican be a lawyer. I can be all
these different things I can godo. And even in college, I would
see friends. I would I wouldpeople that were ministerial
candidates and things like that,and I would have like a little

(59:30):
gnawing in my stomach, like,that's what you're supposed to
do.
No. That's what you're supposedto do. You're supposed to be
that's who you you're supposedto be one of them. And, man, I
just, like, just not trying todo anything other than that. I
fought it, and and my dad diedwhen I was 18.
And that was a big part of myresistance after that too. And I
was very angry with God becausehe was, and I still say this,

(59:54):
one of the most faithful peopleI've ever seen. And so I I was
angry, during my college years,and, and I avoided it. I I
didn't attend church. I I I 1stcouple years, I just didn't
hardly attend church at all andprobably did not have a great
witness at all.

(01:00:16):
I know I didn't have a greatwitness, at all, and I had a lot
of anger. And people that playedwith me during that time can
testify to that that, you know,I had a pretty pretty violent
temper and and really struggled.

T.J. (01:00:30):
All those seem like, justifiable reasons not to get
into ministry, growing up withfinancial strain, church hurt,
experienced by your family, andangry angry at God for the death
of a family member. Those areall real reasons. So Yeah. It

(01:00:55):
didn't seem like much to ponderthere. Reasons not

Rian (01:00:58):
to mention It was hard, but but at the same rate, I
still felt the call. Yeah. Andand the way I dealt with it was
fight back hard. And I wouldjust fight back. And and that's
always been my personality.
I'm I'm probably more you know?And and so I'm just fighting.
And so I got into my senioryear, and really there was a a
series of things that evenreally helped get me back in a

(01:01:18):
place where I was in a in abetter relationship with God.
And there was a series of peoplethat kinda encountered my wife
being one of them, who whocaused me to kinda help you back
into church. And that's anotherstory I won't tell here.
But they anyway, they she cantell you privately, but it was,

(01:01:42):
it was her witness and causedkinda caused him to get back in
church. A friend of mine, youknow, I was going through just
all these ups and downsemotionally and just really
struggling. And you know, therewas one night in a CC campus
crusades for Christ meeting,that, you know, BJ Mathis. And I
I didn't know BJ very well. I'venever really I've talked to him

(01:02:04):
about this, but I just showedup.
Like, I didn't really wanna bethere. Like, I just kinda showed
up. And, but, you know,wrestling with this call to
ministry, wrestling with thiscall to to return, you know, to
kinda to really live out ourfaith and stuff and while
dealing with a lot of lot ofanger and a lot of things like
that. And and I remember, youknow, I was just kinda sitting
over there and BJ came up to me.He's like, hey.

(01:02:26):
You know? We didn't know eachother. And then I'm this big
dude. I've never asked BJ. Imean, we did.
I mean, but I'm like this bigdude. Like, I'm I'm you know, at
this point in my college career,I'm benching like £400, and you
know, PJ. You know what I mean?And it's just like and he comes
up to me. He's like, hey, man.
He said, like, I feel led topray for you. And and that for
me was like this justincredibly, like, healing

(01:02:49):
moment. Does that make sense?Like, it was like I was like,
man. You know what I mean?
And and that was like a reallygod moment. I've always felt
like that was a really pivotaltime in my in my journey. And so
I'll and I'll tell you this lastpoint because I'm rambling with
all this. So get married, andlike I said, I'm wrestling with
the call of ministry. I don'twanna do it.
I do not wanna do it. And I'mdoing this music thing instead

(01:03:10):
and all this stuff. And and andI'm filling this call. I won't
do it. It's making me restless.
It's making me hard to get alongwith. You know what I mean? And
I'm I I I I don't wanna talk toMichelle about it because poor
Michelle, she ended up shethought she was she thought she
was getting engaged to a lawyer,and they think, you know, she's,
like, married to a collegebasketball coach. And you know

(01:03:31):
what I mean? All this stuff.
Right? Yeah. And one day I wassleeping, and I was taking a
nap, and, I was was, I wassleeping. It was kind of in that
state where you're where you'reasleep, but I guess you can
still hear things. And and I Ifelt this this bill, and this

(01:03:55):
may not be appropriate for theshow or for the podcast, but
it's my it's my story.
I felt this sensation upon me.I've been wrestling so hard for
for so many years, and I felt mydeath. Like, I felt I don't know
if you could be more aware ofyour own death than I was in

(01:04:20):
that moment whenever I wassleeping. And I won't say I
heard an auditory voice, but Iheard some type of voice that
basically said, if you're notgonna do what I've called you to
do, then then, you know, whatwhat why why are am I gonna let

(01:04:51):
you live? What use do I have foryou?
And I woke up, and I was like,that's it. Like, I'm I've gotta
accept the call history. I'vegotta talk to Michelle. I've
gotta do this. And it was themost, and I tell I've and I'll

(01:05:12):
tell that people story to a lotof people, but it was it was
real.
I I was a 100% aware at thattime that god's patience and
god's mercy for my disobediencehad run its course Mhmm. And

(01:05:33):
that he was giving me one finalwarning. And so I woke up and I
talked to Michelle and she waslike, okay. And I was like, oh,
you know what I mean? She'slike, it's like, that's what
God's telling you to do.

T.J. (01:05:48):
You expected more drama.

Rian (01:05:49):
I expected a lot more drama. I expected a lot more
everything. And, you know, andso that kinda started me. And
that was whenever I once again,I like I said, at 13, I I
acknowledged and accepted thecall, so to speak. And I spent
the next 13 years of my liferunning from it.
And, yeah. And so that's that'sthat's how I ended up.

T.J. (01:06:12):
So when you awoke from that dream or vision, what was
the emotion that you felt? Wasit fear, dread, or was it
overwhelming joy? Here I am. Myquestion's my question's putting
words in your head, but, yeah,what were you experiencing? That

Rian (01:06:32):
initial reaction. Yeah. So my initial reaction was was that
point where where you've gotsomething to do, and you just
know you're gonna do it. Mhmm.That makes sense?
Like, all the options ofmaneuvering and delaying and all

(01:06:57):
of this stuff, it was it was asabsolute as knowing that I was
going to the fridge to get a cupof water.

T.J. (01:07:03):
Okay.

Rian (01:07:04):
Does that make sense? Like, it was it was just like,
this is what's gonna happen.This is what's gonna happen. And
and so for me, there wasn't Ididn't really feel in that
moment like a bitterness aboutit or angry about it, I'm being
forced into it or anything likethat. Like it was just like in a
way it was almost like because alot of my wrestling was whether
I was really supposed to or not.

(01:07:26):
Mhmm. It was like there was thisthere was this variance between
I'm not gonna do it and, well,I'm not really supposed to do
it, You know what I mean? Therewas kind of this this mind game
that I was playing with myself.And so in this moment and I
don't advise any person who'swrestling with call the ministry
to get to that point. Like, thatis not my life could have been
so much easier and so muchbetter and my ministry so much

(01:07:49):
better.
You know what I mean? Like,there's so many things that
could have been so much better.But but there was just a
determination. Like, it was adetermination that had been
determined for me, if that makessense. I felt a little bit like
Paul.
Mhmm. Not not but just like he'slike, yeah, I can't not preach.
Like, I don't have a choice.Does that make sense?

T.J. (01:08:09):
Yeah.

Rian (01:08:10):
It's like it's like it was a determination and it kinda be
determined for me, that I wasgonna have to do that. And but
there was also a there was alsosome fear. Like a like a there
was also like this woah. Whatwhat were you

T.J. (01:08:28):
afraid of?

Rian (01:08:30):
I mean, just I was very aware of my death. I mean, it
felt real. Like, yeah, that'swhat I'm saying. Like, that was
there it was almost the spiritof, like it was like this moan
of, like, woah. Like, I justlike like, this I don't know.
Just my eyes opened. Like, man,I was playing games with God,
and I almost almost just I justalmost yeah. With that. And that

(01:08:56):
was a so there was a holyterror. If you've heard that
use, there was a holy terrorthere.
Yeah. In that moment with that,but there was also a
determination and and a certainsense of relief. Because once
that was like like, once Ifinally did that, then it was
just like a a load off of myback because I've been carrying
that for so many years.

T.J. (01:09:17):
So what did this do to the rest of your life? Like, where
are you in your vocation andyour family? Did you have
children at that time?

Rian (01:09:24):
I did. I we I had a we had a Colby. At that point, I was
coaching at Mid Continent. I wascoaching the college team up in
in Kentucky. And so then, ofcourse, I was like, well, what
am I gonna do now?
And our or West TennesseePresbyterian didn't leave me a
lot of choices. They said you'regoing to seminary. So it worked

(01:09:47):
out for me to go to seminary.And and what I was doing at the
time was it was amenable to itbecause I was able to build my
own schedule. And so it workedout like I just say, hey.
I'm not coming on Monday until 5o'clock. And I'd go to seminary
and I'd take 2 classes the wholesemester on Monday. You know?

(01:10:09):
And then I'd come in and runpractice at 5 o'clock on Monday
night or something like that. Soit was actually the perfect, job
to have, you know, coaching thecollege.
I went from Mid Continent. Icoached at Dyersburg State for 6
years.

T.J. (01:10:20):
Okay.

Rian (01:10:21):
And so those were the perfect kind of situations for
me to to coach in and and gothrough seminary. When I
finished up, I was finishing upwith west of the sea, and we got
the call from here in Arkansasand felt like we were led to
come out here. And so for a fewyears, I got completely out of
coaching. So for about 4 years,it was just a completely full

(01:10:45):
time in the ministry. And andfor me, that that kind of felt
incomplete.
And I didn't feel like I was I Ifelt like that I felt like there
was a shoe that I wasn'twearing. And, and and so that
was, you know, so that was athat was a challenge, like

(01:11:07):
figuring, okay, what am I gonnado and things like that. And so
went back by vocational andfaith was really good here. And
I told them then like, yeah, ifthis isn't a good situation for
y'all, I'll help y'all findsomebody else. You know what I
mean?
Like like, you know, this iswhat I feel like I'm supposed to
do is buy vocational, with withcoaching. Because I feel like

(01:11:28):
the coaching aspect of it isdefinitely a part of who I am.
It's kinda the only thing that Ibring people outside of
preaching. Does that make sense?Like, I can't fix your car.
I can't rewire your house. I canmow your lawn, and I can teach
you how to play basketball.Like, that's all I got. Like,
that's my you know what I mean?Like, that's all I can bring
you.
You know what I mean? There'snot, like, a lot of other stuff,

(01:11:49):
you know, that I can that I'mthat I'm serving the community
in or doing that type of thingyet. Mhmm. And, you know, so it
was an aspect of of of who I am.But, you know, right now and
then and then going back andworking in the school, it
happened right at the edge ofCOVID.
And I think that was actuallypretty good, like, a kind of a

(01:12:12):
blessing for the church herebecause it kind of allowed some
flexibility in ministry andthings like that. Right now, you
know, you know, for the timebeing, I'm this this is kinda
what I'm doing. I'm I'm servinghere, preaching at, the 2
churches. The the bivocationalpart of it. You know, and we've

(01:12:39):
talked about this at the church.
Like, there may come a time, youknow, there may come a time in
the future that they're like,hey. We need to have somebody
full time back at this church.And, you know, so when that
happens, that'll be, you know,conversations that we need to
have and and hopefully be donein a, you know, in a healthy
way, you know, for foreverybody. And, you know, and I

(01:12:59):
don't know what the future holdsfor me on those things too. But
they have,

T.J. (01:13:05):
Who does?

Rian (01:13:06):
Yeah. Who does? I mean, that's exactly right. The, you
know, for me, it's a neat thingto be able to, like, work with
the team. Mhmm.
And it's like Salem this year.We're getting ready to to to
restart FCA. And, you know, soyou kinda have a unique
relationship with a team thatthat sometimes is harder to

(01:13:28):
achieve, in a church center. Andthat was one of the things I
struggled with. One of thethings I struggled with early in
the ministry here was was kindof this ivory tower feeling of
feeling like you're separatefrom everybody.
You know, you're not reallyyou're you're you're placed kind
of on a I don't wanna say apedestal, but you're you're sort

(01:13:51):
of set apart and and not just Bythe in the not the community.

T.J. (01:13:57):
Okay. Yeah. I was gonna ask

Rian (01:13:58):
about that. Set apart by god for ordained service, but
I'm talking about, like, you'rekinda set apart from the
community. It's very hard it'svery hard to I I think this is a
challenge for pastors ingeneral. Man, it's hard to break
into a new community Mhmm. Justas a pastor.
And, you know, I think, I'veI've thought about this after

(01:14:21):
going back in the work, and I'vethought I've even looked at,
like, the church plants andthings like that around here
that have been successful andthe ones that have failed. And I
think, you know, what what I seethat happens with the church
plants that are that aresuccessful is that the church
plants that are successful arealways planted by people who are
already people in the community.It's planted by your teachers.

(01:14:44):
It's planted by your businessleaders. It's planted by people
who are already in thecommunity.
And the and the church plantsthat struggle are the church
plants where somebody comes infrom outside and tries to start
it. And that's been kinda openfor me because there's
relationships that I have fromworking in the school. From

(01:15:05):
working in the schools, there'srelationships I have that I
could never get to whenever Iwas just in the store world. And
so for me, that's, a continuedthing, I think, you know,
continue to wrestle with, butbut I say it. So

T.J. (01:15:23):
We've had the you and I have had these conversations,
similar conversations before andit's really tempting for me to
run with it and then we get lostand and get away from your
journey a bit. I do wannacomment that I don't think it's
just the isolation of theministers. Well, I think we do

(01:15:44):
this just as Christians. Mhmm.And we I call it the Christian
bubble.
I'm sure there are betterphrases and terms, but the
people that we are closest to,we spend the most time with,
that we interact the most arejust like us. Theologically, you
know, the area that, you know,we may live in, where we shop,

(01:16:07):
go to the doctor, go to school,all those. And each one of those
can be very isolating in termsof what does sharing the news
good news of Jesus Christ looklike. Well, there isn't any
because I know we're, you know,Ryan is or Ryan knows where TJ
is, but we don't. We do, but wedon't.

(01:16:30):
We can assume too much. And,anyway, I yeah. I'm really
tempted to just go, yeah, andtalk about church planting and
things like that, but that wasfor another occasion.

Rian (01:16:42):
Yeah. And I just kinda went on that side because it was
for me, it was eye opening justto realize, like like, how many
people, you know one, it takes along time to build relationships
Mhmm. That are that arefruitful. And It can be years.

(01:17:03):
Years.
It takes years to build. Youknow, I'm just now seeing I've
been here 10 years, and therehave been, you know, there have
been times where, you know,there's been times when I've
been encouraged, and there'sbeen times when I've been
discouraged. And but I'm justnow seeing not I'm not saying

(01:17:29):
exclusively, but I'm just nowseeing things happen. But I'm
seeing things in the last 2weeks that are the results of
relationships. I say partiallythe result, not exclusively to
to me being in a relationshipwith them, but that are
partially results of relationalaspects that were founded 10

(01:17:52):
years ago.
Mhmm. Mhmm. And it's taken 10years in some of these things to
see to see fruit being born. AndI and I think sometimes as
pastors, it's so easy to becomediscouraged after 2 or 3 years.
Mhmm.
3 or 5 years. And I we studiedthe seminary, but, you know,

(01:18:13):
there's those windows, like,after so many years. You know?
And and and pastoring is hard.You know, some of the you know,
I don't mind being yelled atbecause you don't like to play
Iran.
Right? Somebody doesn't like toplay Iran in offense. That
doesn't bother me at all. Youknow, where I'm vulnerable is

(01:18:36):
when people come at me, youknow, as a pastor or as a
preacher or as a Christian. And,you know, and so those are the
ones that kinda dig us thedeepest and I think become
become those discouragingthings.
And and, so it's hard, I think,as a pastor to know, like,

(01:18:57):
what's just commondiscouragement. You know?
Because I'm gonna ask you thisquestion. I'm gonna ask you a
question here. Alright.
Alright. What what is the whatwhat is the most rewarding
thing? What do you think is oneof the most rewarding things
that a pastor does in theirministry for you or for for

(01:19:21):
anybody else? What do you thinkone of the most rewarding things
is?

T.J. (01:19:24):
Well, I can only speak for me. And the most rewarding is
also the most difficult for me.And you're talking about serving
a church, like, I currentlydon't serve a church. Okay. So
when I've done that in the pastand even in the role that I have
in the church now, the mostrewarding and the most difficult

(01:19:45):
is the relationships with otherChristians, human beings, and
Cumberland Presbyterians.
I love it. It's fascinating toget to know new people, get to
know people that I'm acquaintedwith even more and even deeply
more deeply, share in serviceand opportunities together, but

(01:20:06):
also the aspect of of when Ryanexperienced pain, you know, I do
as well. Or Ryan inflicts painon me, I feel that, you know.
You haven't, but if you did. Sothat would be the discouraging.
That's that's my answer. Is therelationships that I have and

(01:20:27):
will make is the most rewardingand also the most difficult?

Rian (01:20:32):
Yeah. So I think my answer is, like, ties on yours, not
nearly as developed as that, bythe way. That's a much better
answer than what I'm so for me,what I find, it it it ties to
the relationships, though, is isone of the most rewarding things
that I experienced in ministryis when I do a funeral for a

(01:20:58):
person who died as a saint andwho I've been able to bear
witness to their journey.

T.J. (01:21:07):
Firsthand.

Rian (01:21:08):
Firsthand. Yeah. And that ties into the relationship thing
and their faith. You know? Andbut pastor is hard for me
because because I'm a milemarker guy.
Right? I, you know, I enjoy oneof my favorite jobs I've ever
had outside of coaching waswhenever I was in college, I

(01:21:30):
worked in a for a landscapingcompany at in Nashville.
Alright?

T.J. (01:21:34):
Yeah.

Rian (01:21:34):
Alright. Do you know why I liked it? Because I could walk
off that property at the end ofthe day, and I could look back
and I could see an immaculateMhmm. Apartment complex. And I
knew I had done a good job.
Mhmm. I knew I knew the crewthat I was with had done a good
job. And pastoring for me, Ithink that's one of the reasons

(01:21:56):
pastoring for me is hard becausesometimes you don't know if
you're doing a good job and you,and, and it, and it's like, it
might go months, years, decades,decade. Like that's hard for me
to write my, it's been a, it'sbeen a decade now. A lot of a
lot of people are a lot moreexperienced in the ministry than

(01:22:17):
I am, but it's been a decade atfaith and new hope.
Faith, hope, will, and new hope.And and I'm just seeing stuff
like, bear fruit. And it's likeit's like, wow. It's humbling.
You know?
And and that is it's reallyhumbling. It's like and it's

(01:22:37):
encouraging, but it's also it'sa little sobering because you
don't mean you just don't thatthat's what's hard for me
sometimes, pastor. You don't getthat weekly that weekly
affirmation. You know? And youappreciate the people that come
up to you say, great job,pastor.
Great job, pastor. But, youknow, when somebody, you know,
when somebody says, hey. Great.That was a great sermon pastor

(01:22:57):
and didn't preach that week. Youknow what I mean?
On Facebook, you're like, Idon't even know if you listen to
it. Right? So so those weeklyaffirmations, you appreciate
them, but it's like sometimesyou look at yourself and you're
like, okay. Am I really, youknow, am I really doing what I'm
supposed to be doing and stufflike that? So that that's that's
the hard part of it.

T.J. (01:23:15):
Ryan, I've given this a lot of thought. And I haven't
drawn any conclusions, but Ithink about those things as well
throughout my ministry. And Ithink those that maybe have
grown up in sports that have acompetitive nature, you know,
you have goal setting, you know,and they're personal and or

(01:23:35):
individual, and then sometimesyour team, you know, they're
shared. And then you can see theprogress or digress, you know,
and how much further you have togo. And then you enter into
ministry, and the world is,like, turned completely upside
down because Completelyinverted.

(01:23:56):
Yeah. You're no longertypically, in the Cumberland
Presbyterian Church, the theteam mentality, there's really
not a good sport analogy, butmaybe tennis or golf in terms of
that there's a lot of dependencyon your own. And, you know, you

(01:24:18):
enter you leave a team settingwhere a team can be 5 or, you
know, 9 or more people to one ofthe loneliest professions in the
entire world, if not theloneliest profession, even
though you're surrounded bypeople. The thing that, you
mentioned about landscaping andgrass mowing, I I've done that

(01:24:42):
as well. And not only you cansee how much that you've
completed, but you can also lookahead and how much more you have
to go to accomplish that goal.
What I've had to do in myministry is, distinguish between
what is the deepening of my ownpersonal faith, what does that

(01:25:03):
look like in terms of goalsetting, and then ask the
question, how does it overlapwith the people that I'm
surrounded by, the people thatI'm called to serve? It was
harder for me to do and maybeeven impossible for me to
articulate much earlier in myministry. And so the
measurements for me havechanged. And now, again, I'm
speaking if I was in 1 pastorateor 2 pastures, is those

(01:25:29):
measurements of growth is beingable to go, oh, I was actually
able I'm making this situationup. Mary allowed me to come and
visit her in a nursing home thistime when previously she only
wanted me to give phone calls.
So I've established a little bitof trust there where I can go

(01:25:51):
and visit Mary at at at thenursing home. So to those little
things like that or or somebodyactually inquiring into my life
a little bit. And for 3 years,they never asked, you know, in
the pastorate, well, where didyou go on vacation? Those are
little things that I think aredifferent and have kept me from

(01:26:15):
discouragement as in, okay, asthis fill in the blank
Cumberland Presbyterian Church,our goals are now, you know, 1,
2, and 3. Well, 95% of the time,those were your goals to begin
with because you're the one whointroduced them.
And then you've placed those on15, 30, 300 people to help

(01:26:37):
accomplish them, you've setyourself up for discouragement.
So I'm I'm I don't have anysolutions. I don't even have any
suggestions. I guess, maybe thebest thing I could say to you,
Ryan, is I wish I knew now whatI didn't know then, you know,

(01:27:02):
when I was in my early twenties.I think that's a Bob Seger line.
Yeah. I think.

Rian (01:27:10):
Well, I think there's a certain amount and this is
something I've had to kind ofaccept and get to is that
there's a certain a great amountof just individual acceptance
that, you know, God's gonna useyou for his plan. And and that

(01:27:34):
it may not be right. Theseparating individual goals and
god's goals, like you just said,are sometimes the hard for us to
do. And, you know, what I'vekinda seen, I'm kinda bearing
witness to some of these thingsthat happened in the last few
weeks is like, I really didn'trealize that God was even

(01:27:55):
working in those situations.

T.J. (01:28:00):
Yeah.

Rian (01:28:00):
You know? I really I really didn't realize that God
was even working. And then loand behold, you know, here it
is. And, you know

T.J. (01:28:11):
I think we put so much pressure on ourselves. If I
could summarize that long rantthat I just did is is that we
are very result oriented.

Rian (01:28:21):
Mhmm.

T.J. (01:28:23):
I think individually and and just society. And that's
very it's hard to presenttangible results, because you
don't even know what the truemeasurements are. We say bear
fruit, but what does that meanin a way, you know? So I think

(01:28:47):
maybe our our our, terms ofmeasurements have to be defined
and then we can start looking atthe context in which we are
serving, But also have to beflexible because that context
changes with every addition tothe community of faith and with
every subtraction, whether it'sa move or death or whatever.

(01:29:11):
That's why I think I think weshould rethink what, in terms of
a local congregation, whatgrowth looks like and be more
honest with ourselves and alsothe very people that we serve.

Rian (01:29:31):
That's hard, I think. Oh, go ahead.

T.J. (01:29:33):
It is. Yeah. I wanted to ask you a question. Something
that you had mentioned earlieris how do you think the
community that you live in, thecounty that you live in
perceives you when they see you?Because you're a minister, you
know, you're a husband toMichelle, you're a parent,

(01:29:54):
you're a basketball coach.
You know, you wear thesedifferent hats and what do you
think people see or what do youwant them to see or feel when
they see you come around thecorner?

Rian (01:30:09):
Yeah. So that's something, you know, kinda wrestle with,
too because people do it'sinteresting to me that a lot of
people struggle seeing somebodywith different hats. Mhmm. They
struggle with it. They havetrouble with you know, I had I
had somebody ask me one time,before I ever came here, before

(01:30:30):
I ever came here, so they said,well, how can you be a coach and
a pastor?
I was like, what do you mean?And their perception of what you
have to do to be a coach wasinconsistent with historical
values. Right? Because in theirmind, coaches done what? He's
he's, you know, he's cussing theplayers.

(01:30:52):
He's you know what I mean? Allthis stuff like that. And I'm
like and I just asked them. Isaid, well, how can you be or
how or, you know, I said, well,I said, well, do you think
somebody could be a, like, ifsomebody, like, be a, like,
contractor and a pastor? Like,sure.
Alright. Well, what's thedifference? What's the
difference between me being acoach and being a pastor or
coach and being a Christian andbeing a and but I think

(01:31:16):
sometimes people have troubleperceiving you in different
hats. And so that's somethingthat that whenever you wear a
lot of different hats that youdefinitely have to deal with.
What I really try to do is to beconsistent.
Now I've had to change I'll tellyou. I've had to change how I
coach. I'm a much differentcoach now at 44 years old, with

(01:31:36):
10 years of pastor of ministrybehind me than I was whenever I
was a 27 year old starting outDyersburg State. You know what I
mean? I'm I'm much different.
Like, the way I handle people,the way I treat people, demands
I make, the way I talk topeople, things like that, it's
it's much different. Mhmm. SoI've had to change, you know,

(01:31:58):
who I am. And it's not been afalse change. It's just been
I've changed who I am.
Like, who I am as a person hasgrown, and and so the way I
treat my athletes has changed.The, what I would like what I
hope people see, is is someonewho's uniquely me. Right? I'm

(01:32:21):
uniquely me. Mhmm.
And that's not always fitcomfortably into people's idea
of what a coach is supposed tobe or what their idea of what a
pastor is supposed to be. Mhmm.But I hope that people see
somebody who's uniquely me, butunabashedly Christian. And and
that there's never any question,you know, with people about, you

(01:32:46):
know, about who I am in in myChristian witness. And and and
I've not always done well withthat.
There's been times I've donesomething. That's terrible
witness. That is a terriblewitness. You know? Like, you
know, that that was just aterrible thing.
And, you know, and and usually Itry to apologize. Like, if
something happens, you know,because I tend to be, you know,

(01:33:09):
I tend to sometimes speak first.I've I've tried to make myself
slower of speech and, you know,to where I think about things
and stuff, but sometimes I'lllet something kinda fly off the
handle, something that you know?And I've one thing I've tried to
do is always apologize. Like, ifif I know or sense that I've
wronged somebody Mhmm.

(01:33:29):
And I'll always try to apologizeto them and and let them know.
It's one thing I'm trying to dowith my kids. Like, if if I find
out if I figure out I'm wrongwith something, something to do
with my kids, I'm I'm I'llalways apologize to them because
I think that's important. But,yeah, that's what I wanna say.
Somebody that's that's I won'tsay comfortable in my own skin.
I don't know if I've ever comefrom my own skin. But who is who

(01:33:54):
is trying to to do to live outwhat what I feel like I'm led to
do? Whose ministry is a littledifferent? It is. Like like, my
ministry is a little different.
I'm a, you know, I probablydon't rest enough. I probably
don't sleep enough. I probablydon't do any of those things
enough. But but what I also findis is that, is that I tend to be

(01:34:20):
more productive when I kindaoperate like that. I don't know
if that's healthy or not.
I'll tell you a story about missat Bethel. Mhmm. Miss professor.
Yeah. So I always used to writeEnglish papers.
Right? I was the English major.I'd be I'd be writing papers,
and it'd be, like, day of, daybefore, and I'm like typing out
something. She came up to me oneday and she said, you know, you

(01:34:41):
don't have to work this way. I'mlike, I know.
I don't. I don't. I need to dobetter. You know? So I was like,
you could do this.
Like, you could have this donelike a week ago. I'm like, I
know. And so I'm like, okay. I'mgonna show it. Like, I'm gonna
do it.
I'm gonna I'm gonna try toembrace this way of operating.
I'm gonna do this. So, like, thenext paper that came up, like,
I'm I'm out there early. I'mlike researching weeks ahead of

(01:35:04):
time. I'm typing up.
I finished the product, and Iturned it in, like, 3 days
early. And she tells me, Iquote, don't ever do this again.
Because because, like, thatdidn't that what you know, I did
everything the right way. DoesDoes that make sense? I did the
research the right way.
I did I did it in a quarterwith, like, everybody else's

(01:35:24):
time management, according towhat worked for them. And what I
turned that in wasn't me. Mhmm.It wasn't it wasn't what I could
normally produce. And she toldme, she said, don't ever do this
again.
Like like, you just go do you,be you. You know? And, so that's
what I've kinda been trying todo. I don't know what the future
holds. I I feel like right nowwith where I'm you know, the

(01:35:46):
group I'm working with, I feellike I have a mission there.
In in coaching, I feel like Ihave a mission there. I don't
know that I've coached. I'venever had in my mind I started
so late in coaching and teachingin the public school. I've never
had in my mind that I was gonnaretire from it. Right?
You know what I mean? It it'sjust you know, so that's not
something. So I just kinda gowith with with the mission and

(01:36:07):
kinda where I feel. You know, Idon't you know, I know I'll
continue to to preach and to towork in, you know, churches and
things like that, but but Idon't know what the what the
future holds there either. Butbut I hope people see this.
I hope people see somebody onTuesday. That's the same as they
see on Sunday.

T.J. (01:36:29):
I wonder. I wondered about that for me. I wonder about that
being now, you know. You willhow do people perceive, you
know, because I'm a neighbor,you know, family, I travel in my
work, no longer bivocational,but I just wonder how people

(01:36:49):
perceive. So I wanted to posethat to you.

Rian (01:36:54):
Yeah. People label you. It's interesting people label
you a certain way, and then itseems like sometimes it doesn't
matter what you say.

T.J. (01:37:05):
Well, it

Rian (01:37:06):
Everything's feeding in through that label. You know?
They they put on those glassesof Yeah. Of of their
experiences, their biases withthat type of person. So if
somebody had it I'm a tell you,and this is true.
If somebody had a coach in highschool that they absolutely
hated, then the chances of themhaving a negative encounter with

(01:37:28):
me, even if I do nothing, itseems to be greater. If if they
hate basketball, if somebodyhates basketball, you know what
I mean, then then I really tryto just come to them through the
pastor side of it. But, youknow, a lot of people have
negative have have have kind ofa skepticism of pastors.

T.J. (01:37:48):
Oh, yeah.

Rian (01:37:49):
And Rightly earned. Rightly earned. Rightly earned.
And and so I've actually foundpeople that I've and I've been
able to form a much betterconnection with and witness to
them through. And I'll tell youthis that's one thing I do, and
I know that's tricky ground.
And I try to I try to respectthe rules of my schools and
stuff like that. Right? Sothere's definite there's

(01:38:11):
definite boundaries that I placeon myself in that. But but where
I can use my position or or whoI am as a witness, I I do. Mhmm.
And, you know, and and so I tryto do that in a way that's
respectful to local statutes andthings like that, but but that's
something also I I I wanteverybody to be clear on as as

(01:38:34):
who I am and and the gospel thatthat I'm teaching and and
representing.

T.J. (01:38:42):
It's a challenge, not necessarily inwardly, but it's
just a challenge that we face,in our vocations. Ryan, you
landed in the CumberlandPresbyterian Church and you
could've landed anywhere else.You've been part of the
denomination. Denomination hashelped form, shape you, educate

(01:39:05):
you into ministry. What newswould you share with somebody
who, listens to this and doesn'treally know anything about the
Cumberland Presbyterian Church?
What would you want to sharefrom your experience, from your
encounter? The wise man hasleaned back. He's

Rian (01:39:26):
Yeah. And I'm

T.J. (01:39:27):
not commentating here. He's measuring his words.

Rian (01:39:33):
Yeah. So I think that what I would wanna share with
somebody, who maybe didn't knowabout the Kremlin Presbyterian
Church is that is that westarted as a gospel centered

(01:40:01):
church with the mindset ofspreading the gospel, sharing
good news. And that, you know,we're continuing to do that.
There is there is for us, like,every denomination right now.

(01:40:24):
There are tensions.
And I do tell people this. Itell people, you know, that
visit my church. I tell peopletheir intentions right now. As a
denomination, we're, you know,we're going through a lot of
the, you know, sameconversations and and things
like this that that all modernchurches are. But that that we

(01:40:51):
have a that we have a solid,foundation and that we have
people who who, you know, everychurch is a little different,
but that we have people who wholove Jesus and that and that we

(01:41:13):
have good people in ourchurches.
And that we have, is that if andthat if you get into a church
and you become part of it isthat is that you become part of
part of a big family that Ithink, unlike some of the larger
denominations, there's a there'sa a really unique connection

(01:41:40):
between the various presbyteriesand and people and things like
that in the CP church. You know,I don't I don't think that that
the other denominations havethat partly because of their
sheer size. Mhmm. You know, Idon't know, you know, I don't
know a lot of denominations oralmost, you know, several people
from every presbytery on firstname basis with people at the

(01:42:04):
denomination center or that, youknow, almost everybody's met the
moderator. Mhmm.
You know, and things like this.And so and so there's a really
unique thing there. There's alot of risk in that. I think our
risk for I think our risk forhurt is partially greater

(01:42:25):
because our familial connectionis deeper. Mhmm.
But there's a lot of risk thereis risk in that, but there's
also a lot of reward in that.And and then it's a really
unique thing, you know, for alot of us to be able to share
these kinda common commonexperiences.

T.J. (01:42:43):
Yeah. I think that goes with family that we know each
other so well or can know abouteach other so well that
intentionally orunintentionally, we also know
how to hurt the other personreally well and say the right
thing that I know that Ryan thatit would hurt him. And he knows

(01:43:06):
that I hurt him, and just like afamily. And and we can do that.
And sometimes that makesapologizing even that much
harder, you know.
I hope I haven't hurt you. Ihope I haven't said anything,
you know. I certainly hadn'tdone it on purpose, but to

(01:43:27):
apologize, to be able to lookyou in the eyes and go, I said
this, I did this, because Ididn't like what, you know,
this, that, or the other. Itmakes it that much harder, I
think, in a smaller context.With that being said, it also
comes for our denomination andeven down to the local church to

(01:43:51):
be able to pick one another upwhen we have fallen flat on our
face.

Rian (01:43:56):
Mhmm.

T.J. (01:43:57):
When we've made terrible mistakes in our family or
workplace or in school or out inthe front yard, out in the
community, whatever it is, it isnice to be a part of a group of
people that will help pick youup, assist where you need it,
and won't abandon you, then Ifind that in the Cumberland

(01:44:20):
Presbyterian Church. Doesn'tmean that they weren't
disappointed in you. But there'sa difference between being
disappointment or disappointedand abandoned. I think we work
terribly hard not to abandonfolks in our local church and
even beyond.

Rian (01:44:45):
There's a responsibility, I think, on just as part of
being the body of Christ as asboth as both the body and
lifting up the person that'sbeen hurt or has messed up, and
then also as a person who hasbeen hurt or messed up in
allowing the body to pick us up.

T.J. (01:45:06):
Yeah. Yeah.

Rian (01:45:07):
You know, there's a there's a responsibility both
ways there. That's a, I guess,that could be a sermon. So

T.J. (01:45:14):
Ryan, I like asking guests out, and I don't wanna miss this
opportunity with you. Lookinginto the future for our
denomination, warts and all,Where would you like to see it
in terms of its ministry, interms of its witness? You know,
if you had that magic wand andyou were able to wave it, Where

(01:45:39):
would you like to see theCumberland Presbyterian Church?

Rian (01:45:44):
I would like to see so couple things. You know, I would
like to see us as as adenomination, more unified on
our biblical, or doctrinalstances. I think right now, you
know, a lot of the things rightnow is, it's part it's part of

(01:46:06):
the familial discussion and it'spart of all of this that's going
on. But I also think it's makingit hard on, local churches and
presbyteries, you know, to dothe work. So I I would like to
see more unity, in the in the inour in our doctrinal, positions.

(01:46:27):
Knowing that there will neverbe, like, complete, you know,
agreement across the lines on oneverything, but I'd like to see
there'd be more unity in that. Iwould like to see, man, I'd like
to see us get into in a greaterway, the Spanish speaking
population that's just explodingright now in the United States.

(01:46:49):
And, you know, we've talked alittle bit about what we're
trying to do in Arkansas. Mhmm.But but I think that the future
of the current PresbyterianChurch in the United States and
and when I say this, I wanna bereally careful that I'm not,
condescending, with the KremlinPresbyterian Church, globally.

(01:47:10):
I think I do think sometimes inthe United States, we tend to
talk as if talk about the us andand them type things, like the
American church and then, like,these outlier kinda you know? So
so they're part of the of whatwe're doing globally. But I I
feel like there's a opportunityin the United States, to to to

(01:47:33):
really expand our churchesbeyond just the, you know,
mostly, you know, kind of thechurches that we have right now
and and the and the populationsthat we serve right now. I would
like to so I'd like to see usexpanding in those ways,
becoming more becoming moreevangelical and and becoming I I

(01:47:57):
don't know that we're notevangelical, but I'd like to see
us become, like, down to thelocal level, like, better at
doing evangelism. And this issomething we've talked about.
Like, how do you do this? Likelike like because our churches
are different. Like, ourtraditions are different. And it
it's kind of a challenge rightnow in modern culture for
historically the way we've donechurch to to really get out

(01:48:21):
there. So those those are allthings to look at at.
And, and then, man, I hope that,you know, I I just hope the CP
church, I just hope it it itexpands and multiplies and, goes
to unreached places andunreached cities and unreached
lands and and, you know, and andjust continues to do that. So I

(01:48:44):
hope 30 years from now, youknow, I hope the CP church is
one of the churches that we'retalking about grew, during what
I think is is going to be a verychallenging time to do ministry.
Mhmm. I mean, we know it is.We're seeing churches that are
you know, the trend is churchesare declining.
Mainline denominations aredeclining. So we have a big

(01:49:06):
challenge. So, yeah, I hope 30years from now, we can say, man,
in the midst of that adversity,in the midst of that postmodern
trends or I don't I don't eventhink we're postmodern now. I
think we're like I think, like,we I don't even know what the
term is for what we are now.But, like, in the in the in in
whatever this virtual world thatwe're going into is, I hope we
can say the the CP churchflourished.

T.J. (01:49:30):
One more question for you. I said that we would swing back
around to this. We were talkingabout, diminishing returns and
rest.

Rian (01:49:39):
Mhmm.

T.J. (01:49:40):
Ron, what do you do to rest?

Rian (01:49:45):
So this is this is hard for me because my challenge is,
you know, with my timecommitments and things like
that. So what I typically do isand and having it on the set
schedule is is kinda hard.Fortunately, my Saturdays are
are typically able to be fairlyfree. My mornings on Saturdays

(01:50:09):
either my mornings or eveningsare are usually dedicated to,
like, church prep or somethinglike that. But, often, I'm able
to have a pretty free time.
My Sunday afternoons and Sundayevenings are pretty free. Mhmm.
And, and so I really lean intolean into those times. There's
times like this week. I'm doingalmost nothing this week.

(01:50:33):
And I build myself some weekslike that through the year.
Like, I'm doing I'm I'm doingthis podcast with you today, and
I'm gonna go pick my son up in asecond and take him some lunch.
And, and then the afternoon, I'mgonna probably go back to my
house, and I'm probably gonnaread a book for a few hours and
then maybe take a nap, and thenI'll go pick my son up again. So

(01:50:57):
so I try to build myself theseperiods where I just completely
so one thing about me is I'm I'ma people person. I do like being
around people, but I haveperiods that I have to just
retreat to be by myself.
And and so I just want completejust just me. I just I just
kinda shut it down and don't doanything for for a while. And
that's kinda how I recharge mybatteries to go back out and and

(01:51:20):
talk and deal with people again.

T.J. (01:51:22):
Well, Ryan, that sounds like a good place for us to to
allow you to to do that. Andthank you so much for sharing
this conversation with me andletting me walk in your journey
for a while and how God hasspoken to you and continues to
speak to you. And our paths havecrossed in different times in

(01:51:46):
our lives, but I didn't know anyof this. So I feel grateful that
be able to hear it and then beable to share it with others.

Rian (01:51:54):
Well, I hope that, I hope that it is a encouragement for
people. I hope people won't,judge me too harshly for what
they've heard. And I hope thatpeople will take a I hope that
anybody that's wrestling withministry will will not choose my
path. I mean, I really do. Ihope they will, you know, I I

(01:52:17):
think without a doubt, I missedopportunities.
I missed, opportunities forgrowth and and things like that.
You know? So I hope they'll hearand be like, man, I just I'm
just gonna, like, I'm just gonnado this. And, it is a, it it is
a privilege, to be able to be aminister. It's it's something I

(01:52:38):
don't feel worthy of.
Mhmm. I often I, you know, Ioften wonder, you know, why God
called me to it and, because Iknow there's people that are a
lot more, suited for it and alot more, gifted in it, things
like that than than I am. Andand then sometimes, you know, I

(01:53:00):
even even today, I question.Okay. Well, you know, am I
supposed to you know, am I surethat I'm supposed to be doing
this?
And then what I find is, youknow, what I find is that god
will do something. Like, he'llhe'll let you like you like I'm
like, okay. Like, I'm not BillyGraham, but but I'm doing what

(01:53:20):
he's wanting me to do. You knowwhat I mean? So Yeah.
So my ministry is not gonna belike Billy Graham or, you know,
one of these guys like this, butthat's okay. Like, I'm gonna I'm
trying to serve in in in thecapacity that I've been called
to serve in.

T.J. (01:53:34):
Thank you for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road.
Please check out my other guestand share this podcast with your
family and friends. In closing,read some words from Marcus
Aurelius. Hour by hour, resolveto do the task of the hour
carefully with unaffecteddignity, affectionately, freely,

(01:53:58):
and justly. You can avoiddistractions that might
interfere with such performanceif every act is done as though
it were the last act of yourlife. Thanks for listening.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Rian Puckett - God, Family, Church, And Basketball