What is a setback?
How do you know you are in one, and how do you get out of it?
Join us as we chat with Amy Shoenthal, a bestselling author, journalist, and marketing consultant for big names like Google. She is here to talk about her book, The Setback Cycle.
Amy breaks down what a setback really is, how to know when you're in one, and introduces us to her 4-step setback cycle —establish, embrace, explore, and emerge. We learn how to identify setbacks and work through the 4 phases by asking key questions like what energizes and disengages you.
Even though her book is mostly about business leaders and how their setbacks helped them succeed, Amy shares how teens can use these steps to tackle their own challenges, whether it's school stress, friendship issues, or other problems. Plus, she opens up about her journey of facing rejection after rejection before landing a publishing deal and becoming a bestselling author.
Amy shows us how we can all learn from our challenges and come out stronger on the other side. It was super inspiring to hear Amy's story and see how we can use her tips in our own lives!
Resources
Amy's Website
Amy's Instagram
Read the Book
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Enjoy another curious conversation for teens by teens!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amy Shoenthal (00:00):
Two of the questions I ask in the alarm
clock checklist are what are youenergized by and what are you
disengaged with?
And it's not like what's thebest part of your day, because
that could be an easy like Ihugged my mom, that's great.
What were you energized by?
The answer to that is much morerevealing than what was your
favorite part of the day.
And then you can ask yourself asecond question, which is what
(00:23):
am I disengaged with?
Where was I really likechecking out?
Where was I not really, youknow, wanting to be there?
And if you ask yourself thosetwo questions every day, every
couple of days, and you canreally make sense of some
patterns to see if you might bein a setback.
You know if that disengage listis really long or it has some,
(00:44):
you know, very clear throughline, it's time to really figure
out if there's something youcan do about it.
Xavier (00:53):
Hi, welcome to Curious Conversations, a podcast for
kids, by kids.
I'm one of your hosts, xavier.
Emma (01:01):
And I'm your other host, emma, and we're so excited to
bring you another season ofinteresting discussions with
people from all walks of life,to learn about their passions
and what inspires them.
Xavier (01:11):
We are still as curious as ever, and we hope you will
join us on our journey.
On today's episode, we arehanging out with Amy Schoenthal.
She is a best-selling author, ajournalist and a marketing
consultant for big names likeGoogle, and she is here to talk
to us about her book, theSetback Site.
(01:32):
Amy breaks down what a setbackreally is, how to know when
you're stuck in one, and showsus her four-step plan to get out
of it.
Even though her book is mostlyabout business leaders and how
their setbacks help them succeed, amy also explains how we can
use the same steps to deal withour own problems, whether it's
(01:53):
at school, with friends oranything else in between.
It was super cool to learn howto handle challenges in a whole
new way.
Emma (02:03):
Hi Amy, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Thank you for having me.
Amy Shoenthal (02:07):
I'm so excited for this Us too.
Xavier (02:11):
So before we talk about your book, we want to talk a
little bit about New York.
Our cousins live in New Yorkand we love visiting them in the
city.
What is your favorite partabout living in New York?
Amy Shoenthal (02:22):
Oh my God, my favorite part about living in
New York is probably just thefact that you can do anything or
go anywhere and get whateverkind of food you want, and you
can always be around people andgood energy and like it's just
very, a very communal feeling tobe in New York.
(02:42):
You are always around otherpeople, you are.
You always want to get out ofyour house.
Um, right now I'm in thesuburbs, I'm at my sister's
house and I feel like everyoneis sort of confined to their
homes and it's a lot of planningto get together, Um and uh.
So that, yeah, I like the citybecause you.
It's more of a spontaneous,communal feel.
Emma (03:03):
I always love visiting New York because there's just so
much culture.
I think people don't realizethat, like some different people
from all part of the world,it's pretty diverse.
Amy Shoenthal (03:13):
Yeah, I agree, and I live in Queens, which is,
like I think, has representationfrom like almost every country
in the world Like it's aridiculous place and it has the
best food in the whole world, soyou'll have to visit Queens
next time you come to New York.
Emma (03:27):
What's your favorite food to get in Queens?
Greek food.
Amy Shoenthal (03:31):
But that's my favorite food to get anywhere,
including in Greece or inManhattan.
Emma (03:35):
So it's pretty good.
So you went to school forjournalism and you've written
most of your career.
Did you always want to write abook?
Amy Shoenthal (03:46):
I did, I did.
I always wanted to write a booksince I was a little girl and I
always made sense of the worldthrough writing and when I was a
child I always wrote littlestories and when I look back at
those stories, they weretechnically fiction but they
were always based on people inmy life and so I think I was
(04:06):
always supposed to be ajournalist slash nonfiction
writer, because I think I writethe stories of the people and
the trends and the culture and,I guess, interesting things that
I see around me, yeah, so youkind of write what's around you
and what you see, yeah, yeah, sowhat was your favorite thing
about writing a book?
(04:28):
My favorite thing about writingthe book was having to really
challenge myself to learn anentirely new skill.
So I'm telling you that I'vebeen writing my whole life, but
I really channeled most of thatwriting into articles and into
my marketing career.
You know, and I kind of startedwriting in short form short
(04:52):
articles, short, you know,tweets and social media posts
through my marketing career andin writing in such an
abbreviated way and trainingyourself to do that for so long.
That is a particular skill andlearning to.
You know, I also went to schoolfor journalism and to be a
journalist, you're reallysupposed to take yourself out of
(05:13):
the story.
You're supposed to be objectiveand share what you see and try
to bring in all differentviewpoints and not insert your
own opinion anywhere.
And so I was really and it'sthe same with marketing when I
work with brands, you are notsupposed to put any of yourself
in there.
You're just supposed to beposting on behalf of what a
(05:33):
brand should be saying.
And when I wrote the book, a lotof the feedback I got from my
editor was well, put your voicein.
Like what do you think?
Because I was so trained toremove my voice from my writing.
I had to like relearn how toput it back in there.
So really writing a book, evena nonfiction book, based on the
(05:53):
articles I had written, was likelearning an entirely new skill,
which was really nice, becauselook, as an adult like you don't
have that many opportunities tolearn new skills unless you
really seek them out.
So I really enjoyed it.
Emma (06:06):
Was that one of the hardest things you faced while
writing your book and if not,what was the hardest part about
it?
Amy Shoenthal (06:12):
That was definitely one of the hardest
things I faced, because I wasn'tused to doing it, so I had to
really really learn how to do itand train and practice doing it
.
Another thing I reallystruggled with was the whole
editing process, because whenyou get your first round of
edits back on a, you know,80,000 word manuscript, it's not
(06:33):
just like add a comma here, youknow, add a space there, remove
a period there, it's likeexplain how this paragraph links
back to the overall frameworkthat you're trying to prove.
And it was like if there, if Ihave any critical thinking
skills, I had to really justbring them out in the biggest
(06:56):
way possible and really reallyuse them, which, again, you know
it was nice.
It was nice, it was hard, butit was.
It was rewarding.
Emma (07:04):
Some of the hardest things are the most rewarding.
Xavier (07:07):
Exactly.
So what is your favorite typeof book?
Do you like making fiction ornonfiction books?
Amy Shoenthal (07:16):
I've only written .
Well, I guess I've writtentechnically a fiction book.
I wrote a children's book aboutthe small businesses in my
neighborhood.
It was technically fiction, youknow, I made up a story about
little kids going around to eachstore and like trying to find
magic.
But it was based on real lifebecause it was the actual stores
of my neighborhood and thesmall business owners who owned
(07:37):
and operated those stores andthe people within the community
where I live.
So technically that was fiction.
But other than that I reallyagain, I'm a journalist and a
nonfiction author and so Ireally gravitate towards
nonfiction.
I think for a long time I wouldsay I only want to read a book
if I'm learning something.
And so I gravitated towardnonfiction books because I felt
(08:00):
like they allowed me thatcontinual learning that you
don't get once you go into yourcareer, you're out of school,
you're not like really learningas much unless you seek it out,
and I found nonfiction to be agreat way to foster that.
But after spending three yearsresearching and writing and
editing like, I took a littlebreak from nonfiction and I went
(08:20):
on a big fiction kick this pastyear.
So I've been reading a lot ofreally sort of not mindless, but
like interesting books thataren't making me smarter, and
that's okay too.
So I read for learning, forcuriosity, but also for
enjoyment.
Xavier (08:37):
So how did it feel when one of your books became a
bestseller?
Amy Shoenthal (08:42):
I don't even know .
I don't even know how to answerthat I was shocked.
I was so surprised because I'm,you know, not a celebrity or
influencer level person and thatactually prevented me from
getting a book deal for a longtime.
You know, they look at how manyInstagram followers you have
and how many newslettersubscribers you have, and I only
have a couple thousand, so itwasn't seen as like a slam dunk.
(09:06):
We're definitely going to sell,you know, 15,000 books the
first week, and so I did notthink I was going to make any
bestseller lists.
But I was fine with that.
You know, I had made peace withit.
It wasn't like it wasn't even agoal that I had.
You know, I thought maybe I'dget in an Amazon category
somewhere.
You know, I just wanted to getthis book out in the world and
when my agent called me, I wasactually in a cab on my way from
(09:31):
a client meeting to go speak atGoogle.
So it was already a pretty goodday because I was in this
client meeting that I was happyabout, like I had done a pretty
good job, and then I was in acar on the way to go speak at
Google, which is a pretty bigdeal to go speak at Google.
And then my agent called andshe said I just want to let you
know you're like number 75 onthe USA Today bestseller list,
which means you like sold themost books.
(09:52):
You were number 75 sold themost books in the country this
week.
And I was like, are you kidding?
Like it was, it was a goal Ididn't even have for myself.
So to say I surpassed it likedoesn't even do it justice.
So the best surprise ever booklaunch week was better than I
could have even imagined.
Emma (10:13):
And did your book get on the bestseller list right away,
or did it take a few weeks?
Amy Shoenthal (10:18):
Yeah, first two weeks it was out it was on the
bestseller list, so it waspretty cool.
Emma (10:22):
Yeah, that's great.
So, speaking more on your book,can you talk to us more about
the four stages of the setbackcycle cycle establish, embrace,
explore and emerge?
Amy Shoenthal (10:33):
Sure.
So the setback cycle is reallya framework for helping people
navigate their own inevitablesetbacks, whether in their
career, school, education,relationships, life because
setbacks are just a veryuniversal human experience.
We will all have them.
There will be different levelsof setbacks, but what we can do
(10:56):
is understand what they are andhow to work through them.
And so I have this four E'sframework what they are and how
to work through them.
And so I have this four E'sframework.
The first phase is establishedbecause so often we don't even
realize that we're entering intoa setback and we kind of just
keep going along because youknow, we had this prior plan to
do something and we want to pushthrough and keep going, even if
(11:18):
it has failed or even if it'snot really serving us anymore.
So step one is just naming itand acknowledging the moment
you're in.
You are in a setback.
You have to go through thecycle to work your way out of it
.
So that's phase one establish.
Once you establish you're in asetback, you go to phase two,
which is embrace.
When I say embrace I don't meanlike get really happy that
(11:41):
you're in a setback and embraceit and welcome it, like we're
not happy to be here.
But by embrace I mean justacknowledge the reality of your
situation and take what you canfrom it.
Like you just said, the hardest, you know, the hardest things
are always the most rewarding.
And this is kind of when youhave to really dig into why this
(12:01):
moment is so hard, is sodifficult to get through.
Did you make a mistake?
Did someone else make a mistake?
Are you blaming them?
Are you, you know, kind ofgiving yourself a little bit of
compassion to help yourself getthrough it?
What information can youcollect that will inevitably
make you better in the long run?
So it's like embrace is reallyjust asking what can I learn
(12:24):
from this?
Whether I did something,whether someone else did
something like?
What is the information I cancollect to allow me to learn and
move forward?
So then, once you get throughembrace, you go to phase three,
which is explore, and explore isjust my favorite phase.
It is so much fun because inexplore, we get to do just that.
We get to go play.
(12:44):
We don't have to commit toanything yet, we just get to go
see what our options are.
What are we passionate about?
Where are our strengths?
I have a whole exercise thatallows you to figure out what
your unique superpower is,because even if we're all good
at the same stuff like you get areally good grade in writing or
(13:04):
reading there's a reason you'regood at that and so this helps
you dig into why you as a personare uniquely.
You know, a superhero.
So it's a very fun phase and itgives you a little bit more
clarity.
It takes the information yougot during embrace and helps you
put that information to use andyou can go test ideas out
within your community.
(13:25):
You know, see where yourpassions and your strengths
really intersect, and that'swhat helps you move to the final
phase of the setback cycle,which is Emerge.
This is when you come out ofyour setback and it's wonderful,
it feels great, but it's alsohard because now you really have
to sort of abandon the plansthat you had, mourn them and you
(13:48):
know, say goodbye and moveforward into whatever new plan
you have made and kind of act onwhatever strategy you have set
forth for yourself.
(14:12):
And what was the inspiration, ifany, for the like Establish,
embrace, explore and Emergerealized wow, I need a whole
phase for the people who don'teven realize they're in a
setback yet.
And I think at first it wasthree phases and it was five
phases and at some point we camedown to four.
So it was a lot of writing,especially when you're writing a
book.
But I feel this way aboutarticles and you know everything
(14:34):
that I do A lot of it is reallyjust like putting together a
puzzle, like, does this fit here?
Does this support this firstargument that I'm making?
And then you know you kind ofgo down into the later part of
the manuscript and you think,wait, actually maybe this goes
further up in the beginning, andso you're just kind of chopping
it up and putting it togetherin a way that you hope
eventually makes sense when itgoes to print.
Xavier (14:56):
So when you get a setback, how long would you stay
in the setback cycle before youthink the setback is over or it
ends?
Amy Shoenthal (15:06):
unfortunately, there's really no set time frame
for working through a setbackbecause everyone's setback is so
different.
You know, um, you're, let's say, you're going out the door in
the morning and you have um,like sports practice after
school, and you need to bringyour uniform, but you can't find
your uniform, and so you'rerunning all over the house.
You need to bring your uniform,but you can't find your uniform
, and so you're running all overthe house, you're digging
(15:26):
through your laundry, and thenyou're late and you miss, you
know, your math test at firstperiod.
Like that's a setback right,it's a setback because you made
a little mistake.
But you're going to workthrough that setback cycle over
the course of a day, probably,you know, maybe a couple of
weeks if you have to make up themath test.
That's a quick one, you know.
Then there are bigger setbacks,you know ending a friendship,
(15:48):
getting through a fight with afriend, things like that, and
that that takes quite a bit,quite a bit longer.
Emma (15:54):
And how does one know when they are through with one step
of the setback cycle and canmove on?
Amy Shoenthal (16:00):
I think knowing is really.
It's just so personal and it'sreally up to you.
I have so many conversationswith people that say they say,
oh, I think I'm an explorer nowand I have to be like I don't
know, I think you're still anembrace, like I don't think
you're quite there yet.
You know, I think you need alittle more information.
Or I just had a conversationwith a client of mine I help
(16:20):
coach people through you know,career setbacks, and and she
said you know, I think I'mfinally an explorer.
I'm so happy to tell you this.
And I said I don't know, Ithink you're in a merge and so
you kind of have to.
I think it can be somethingthat you decide for yourself,
but you can also share where youthink you are with other people
(16:41):
and see what they say, becausesometimes other people can see
you.
Where you think you are withother people and see what they
say, because sometimes otherpeople can see you more clearly
than you can see yourself.
Emma (16:48):
And what would you say is the most impactful stage of the
setback?
Amy Shoenthal (16:52):
cycle I think embraces, because that's where
you have to get introspectiveand collect the information and
make sure that you understandwhat sent you into this setback
so that you can prepare forfuture ones and try not to
repeat any.
You know bad patterns or thingslike that.
Xavier (17:12):
How do you know if you're going through a setback?
Amy Shoenthal (17:16):
I have something in the established phase called
the alarm clock checklist andit's meant to wake you up if you
think you might be sleepwalkingthrough a setback, because
sometimes we enter into setbacksand we are totally unconscious
of it and it takes something towake us up, to kind of shake us
and say you are in a setback.
Now I created this alarm clockchecklist so that hopefully we
(17:39):
can do this for ourselves.
But it depends.
It depends how ready you are toacknowledge the moment you're
in and be ready to change.
Two of the questions I ask inthe alarm clock checklist are
what are you energized by andwhat are you disengaged with?
So if you can think every daybefore you start your day or
even at the end of the day, youcan do this.
(18:01):
You can say okay, what did I dotoday, what was I energized by?
And it's not like what's thebest part of your day, because
that could be an easy like Ihugged my mom.
That's great.
What were you energized by?
That's much.
The answer to that is much morerevealing than what was your
favorite part of the day.
And then you can ask yourself asecond question, which is what
am I disengaged with?
(18:22):
Where was I really likechecking out when was I not
really, you know, wanting to bethere and if you ask yourself
those two questions, like if youjournal, you can ask yourself
those two questions every day,every couple of days and you can
really make sense of somepatterns to see if you might be
in a setback.
You know if that disengage listis really long or it has some,
(18:44):
you know, very clear throughline, it's time to really figure
out if there's something youcan do about it.
Emma (18:51):
So your book is more targeted towards adults, but how
do you think teenagers and evenyounger kids can apply the
lessons of the setback cycle totheir experiences?
Amy Shoenthal (19:01):
That's such a great question and I think they
can apply it in the same wayadults can.
I think teenagers, you know youare experiencing new things all
the time.
All the time You're learningnew things in school.
You're dealing, you know,unfortunately sometimes with
like complicated friendships orevolving and changing friend
group dynamics.
(19:22):
You're potentially playingsports and losing sometimes or
not making a team, so you'redealing with setbacks very
consciously all the time.
If you have these tools, though,I think you'll be able to
better navigate thatdisappointment when you have a
setback If you don't make theteam, if you don't get a good
(19:44):
grade, if you fail a class.
You know, go through the phases, go through the exercises.
There's like a little workbookat the back of the book.
You can go through that to justkind of help yourself through
it.
I actually think adults needthis book more because we can
fall so easily into routines andI think adults can become a
little bit more unconscious andout of practice at dealing with
(20:08):
setbacks, because we are, youknow, we're not always pushing
ourselves to learn new thingsand try new things as adults
when we get into our routine.
So I actually think you guysare much better set up to work
through the setback cyclebecause you're practicing it all
the time.
Xavier (20:28):
So, when you're writing your book, did you have any
setbacks?
And if you did, what was thebiggest setback?
Amy Shoenthal (20:36):
Oh my goodness, I had so many.
I mean, like I said, when Ifirst shopped this book around
and tried to get a publisher tobuy it, to publish it, I got a
lot of rejection.
I had a lot of people tellingme you know, you don't have a
big enough platform, meaning Idon't have a big enough social
media following.
I'm not an influencer orcelebrity that has a built-in
(20:56):
audience, so we're not surewho's going to read this book,
you know.
So that was a huge setback.
I was rejected so much.
But what I found in thoserejections was information and
feedback.
You know, it didn't.
It wasn't only luckily, itwasn't only you don't have a
platform, it was.
I don't think you have aplatform, so you need to build
it a little bit, and I think youneed to, you know, make these
(21:19):
couple of changes to the book ifyou want it to get published.
And a lot of the feedback wasvery consistent and I took the
feedback and I worked on theproposal for another like six
months and then I shopped itaround again and that's when I
got my agent and then my agentand I worked on the proposal for
(21:40):
another three months and then Igot the book deal.
And so from the time you knowit's about a year in between
when I first started shopping itaround to when I actually got
the book deal, and there was alot of back and forth and a lot
of setbacks and a lot of momentswhere I thought this might not
happen, but I kind of like tookmy own advice, like I, I
embraced it and I took thefeedback and I said, okay, this
(22:02):
is what I need to do to keepgoing.
And I remember one editor sayingto me wow, I read this.
You know, I had given her myproposal to read when I first
shopped it around and then Igave it to her the second time
and she said I can't believeyou're still working on this,
like so many people would havequit by now.
And I was like, no, this bookis happening.
This is absolutely happening.
(22:22):
So one thing I really learnedis motivation is the biggest
predictor of success and ifyou're motivated to do something
, you will succeed.
You will get it done becauseyou are just so motivated to
keep going, no matter how manytimes you get kicked down.
Emma (22:38):
What would be your most important piece of advice to
young writers?
Just keep writing.
Amy Shoenthal (22:44):
Keep writing, even if you get bad feedback,
even if someone tells you yourwriting isn't good.
Just keep writing and keepfinding outlets for your writing
.
When I graduated college, Itook a job in marketing and I
built up a really big marketingcareer for 20 years.
Right, I still do marketingbecause I needed to pay my bills
(23:06):
and pay off my student loansand I'm really proud of that
career.
But I'm also really proud thatI kept writing on the side.
You know, I never stopped andit took different forms.
You know, in the early, like2010s, I had a little travel
blog, you know.
Then I started writing forForbes.
At some point I wrote for areal estate publication and I
(23:27):
just, I just always foundopportunities to write and
eventually it took a long time.
It took a long, long time, buteventually I I got a lot of
visibility and success and I gotthe book deal and and here we
are- Aside from writing, you'realso a pretty well-known speaker
.
Emma (23:44):
Where do you speak at?
And is it always about thesetback cycle, or do you kind of
just have a variety of topicsyou talked about?
Amy Shoenthal (23:51):
I definitely speak on a variety of topics.
Back when crypto was like a big, hot new thing, I was doing a
lot of reporting on the world ofcrypto, and so I was invited to
speak about it because I thinkpeople were just very curious to
learn about it, and so theywanted to hear from a journalist
who was interviewing some ofthe most prominent voices in
crypto, and so I think I startedspeaking a lot around that time
(24:15):
.
I speak a lot aboutentrepreneurship because I have
interviewed many entrepreneursand I am a founder myself, and
so I speak about that.
I speak about parenthood andnavigating work with being a
parent and, you know, being awoman.
It's like there's a lot thereand there's a lot of, I think,
speaking engagements availableon those topics.
(24:36):
It's of great interest to a lotof working parents.
And, yes, over the past year, Ihave definitely been speaking a
lot about the setback cycle.
I just did a TEDx talk and, yes, over the past year, I have
definitely been speaking a lotabout the setback cycle.
I just did a TEDx talk, and sothat was very exciting.
That was all about, you know,the frame.
I took people through theframework for the setback cycle,
but I positioned it as you knowwhy setbacks actually set the
stage for reinvention.
(24:58):
So I talked about the moredramatic side of setbacks.
Emma (25:02):
And what would you say is more impactful the speaking part
of your career or the writingpart of your career?
Amy Shoenthal (25:07):
Well, I think they go together really because,
like you guys, you know, I getinvited onto a lot of podcasts
and I have a lot of people whosay you know, I bought your book
but I haven't read it yet.
Tell me about it.
Sometimes people want to digestinformation like this, you know
, in an interview format, and Ihave the information and I'm
happy to share it in whateverway you want to digest it,
(25:31):
whether that is sitting down andreading a you know 200
something page book, whether itis listening to the audio book,
or whether it's listening to meon a podcast, or listening to me
speak on a stage about thisinformation that I've spent
years collecting and becoming anexpert on.
So I think it's really all ofthe above they work together.
Emma (25:53):
And what would be one piece of advice you would give
to a younger person who maybehas just experienced their first
big setback, or a very lastingsetback that has an impact on
their life, either negative orpositive?
What would you, what's onepiece of advice you would give
them?
Amy Shoenthal (26:09):
I would just say your world may feel like it is
caving in right now, but yourlife is just beginning.
Like this will be a blip oneday.
Just work through it, getthrough it and I promise this
will not affect you in the wayyou are feeling it right now.
You know at some point in thefuture.
(26:30):
But don't ignore it.
Like don't ignore those reallycomplicated, difficult, like
sometimes terrible feelings.
Do not ignore them.
You really need to absorb themand feel them because otherwise,
if you try to push them down,they're going to come up in
unhealthy ways down the road.
So you will get through this,you will be better for it and it
will not feel as big as it doesright now.
Emma (26:50):
Well, thank you so much.
It was lovely speaking to youand I think us, and as well as
our audience, will learn a lotthrough this episode.
Amy Shoenthal (26:58):
Thank you, thank you so much.
Emma (27:00):
Thank you.
So much.
Thank you for listening and Iknow all the shows.
You probably listened to saythis, but if you enjoy this
episode, please follow and ratethe podcast.
Xavier (27:10):
Also, we would love to connect with you and hear your
thoughts about our episodes.
You can find us on Instagram orvisit our website.
The links are in the show notes.
Thanks for tuning in.
Bye.
Two of the questions I ask in the alarm
clock checklist are what are youenergized by and what are you
disengaged with?
And it's not like what's thebest part of your day, because
that could be an easy like Ihugged my mom, that's great.
What were you energized by?
The answer to that is much morerevealing than what was your
favorite part of the day.
And then you can ask yourself asecond question, which is what
(00:23):
am I disengaged with?
Where was I really likechecking out?
Where was I not really, youknow, wanting to be there?
And if you ask yourself thosetwo questions every day, every
couple of days, and you canreally make sense of some
patterns to see if you might bein a setback.
You know if that disengage listis really long or it has some,
(00:44):
you know, very clear throughline, it's time to really figure
out if there's something youcan do about it.
Xavier (00:53):
Hi, welcome to Curious Conversations, a podcast for
kids, by kids.
I'm one of your hosts, xavier.
Emma (01:01):
And I'm your other host, emma, and we're so excited to
bring you another season ofinteresting discussions with
people from all walks of life,to learn about their passions
and what inspires them.
Xavier (01:11):
We are still as curious as ever, and we hope you will
join us on our journey.
On today's episode, we arehanging out with Amy Schoenthal.
She is a best-selling author, ajournalist and a marketing
consultant for big names likeGoogle, and she is here to talk
to us about her book, theSetback Site.
(01:32):
Amy breaks down what a setbackreally is, how to know when
you're stuck in one, and showsus her four-step plan to get out
of it.
Even though her book is mostlyabout business leaders and how
their setbacks help them succeed, amy also explains how we can
use the same steps to deal withour own problems, whether it's
(01:53):
at school, with friends oranything else in between.
It was super cool to learn howto handle challenges in a whole
new way.
Emma (02:03):
Hi Amy, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Thank you for having me.
Amy Shoenthal (02:07):
I'm so excited for this Us too.
Xavier (02:11):
So before we talk about your book, we want to talk a
little bit about New York.
Our cousins live in New Yorkand we love visiting them in the
city.
What is your favorite partabout living in New York?
Amy Shoenthal (02:22):
Oh my God, my favorite part about living in
New York is probably just thefact that you can do anything or
go anywhere and get whateverkind of food you want, and you
can always be around people andgood energy and like it's just
very, a very communal feeling tobe in New York.
(02:42):
You are always around otherpeople, you are.
You always want to get out ofyour house.
Um, right now I'm in thesuburbs, I'm at my sister's
house and I feel like everyoneis sort of confined to their
homes and it's a lot of planningto get together, Um and uh.
So that, yeah, I like the citybecause you.
It's more of a spontaneous,communal feel.
Emma (03:03):
I always love visiting New York because there's just so
much culture.
I think people don't realizethat, like some different people
from all part of the world,it's pretty diverse.
Amy Shoenthal (03:13):
Yeah, I agree, and I live in Queens, which is,
like I think, has representationfrom like almost every country
in the world Like it's aridiculous place and it has the
best food in the whole world, soyou'll have to visit Queens
next time you come to New York.
Emma (03:27):
What's your favorite food to get in Queens?
Greek food.
Amy Shoenthal (03:31):
But that's my favorite food to get anywhere,
including in Greece or inManhattan.
Emma (03:35):
So it's pretty good.
So you went to school forjournalism and you've written
most of your career.
Did you always want to write abook?
Amy Shoenthal (03:46):
I did, I did.
I always wanted to write a booksince I was a little girl and I
always made sense of the worldthrough writing and when I was a
child I always wrote littlestories and when I look back at
those stories, they weretechnically fiction but they
were always based on people inmy life and so I think I was
(04:06):
always supposed to be ajournalist slash nonfiction
writer, because I think I writethe stories of the people and
the trends and the culture and,I guess, interesting things that
I see around me, yeah, so youkind of write what's around you
and what you see, yeah, yeah, sowhat was your favorite thing
about writing a book?
(04:28):
My favorite thing about writingthe book was having to really
challenge myself to learn anentirely new skill.
So I'm telling you that I'vebeen writing my whole life, but
I really channeled most of thatwriting into articles and into
my marketing career.
You know, and I kind of startedwriting in short form short
(04:52):
articles, short, you know,tweets and social media posts
through my marketing career andin writing in such an
abbreviated way and trainingyourself to do that for so long.
That is a particular skill andlearning to.
You know, I also went to schoolfor journalism and to be a
journalist, you're reallysupposed to take yourself out of
(05:13):
the story.
You're supposed to be objectiveand share what you see and try
to bring in all differentviewpoints and not insert your
own opinion anywhere.
And so I was really and it'sthe same with marketing when I
work with brands, you are notsupposed to put any of yourself
in there.
You're just supposed to beposting on behalf of what a
(05:33):
brand should be saying.
And when I wrote the book, a lotof the feedback I got from my
editor was well, put your voicein.
Like what do you think?
Because I was so trained toremove my voice from my writing.
I had to like relearn how toput it back in there.
So really writing a book, evena nonfiction book, based on the
(05:53):
articles I had written, was likelearning an entirely new skill,
which was really nice, becauselook, as an adult like you don't
have that many opportunities tolearn new skills unless you
really seek them out.
So I really enjoyed it.
Emma (06:06):
Was that one of the hardest things you faced while
writing your book and if not,what was the hardest part about
it?
Amy Shoenthal (06:12):
That was definitely one of the hardest
things I faced, because I wasn'tused to doing it, so I had to
really really learn how to do itand train and practice doing it
.
Another thing I reallystruggled with was the whole
editing process, because whenyou get your first round of
edits back on a, you know,80,000 word manuscript, it's not
(06:33):
just like add a comma here, youknow, add a space there, remove
a period there, it's likeexplain how this paragraph links
back to the overall frameworkthat you're trying to prove.
And it was like if there, if Ihave any critical thinking
skills, I had to really justbring them out in the biggest
(06:56):
way possible and really reallyuse them, which, again, you know
it was nice.
It was nice, it was hard, butit was.
It was rewarding.
Emma (07:04):
Some of the hardest things are the most rewarding.
Xavier (07:07):
Exactly.
So what is your favorite typeof book?
Do you like making fiction ornonfiction books?
Amy Shoenthal (07:16):
I've only written .
Well, I guess I've writtentechnically a fiction book.
I wrote a children's book aboutthe small businesses in my
neighborhood.
It was technically fiction, youknow, I made up a story about
little kids going around to eachstore and like trying to find
magic.
But it was based on real lifebecause it was the actual stores
of my neighborhood and thesmall business owners who owned
(07:37):
and operated those stores andthe people within the community
where I live.
So technically that was fiction.
But other than that I reallyagain, I'm a journalist and a
nonfiction author and so Ireally gravitate towards
nonfiction.
I think for a long time I wouldsay I only want to read a book
if I'm learning something.
And so I gravitated towardnonfiction books because I felt
(08:00):
like they allowed me thatcontinual learning that you
don't get once you go into yourcareer, you're out of school,
you're not like really learningas much unless you seek it out,
and I found nonfiction to be agreat way to foster that.
But after spending three yearsresearching and writing and
editing like, I took a littlebreak from nonfiction and I went
(08:20):
on a big fiction kick this pastyear.
So I've been reading a lot ofreally sort of not mindless, but
like interesting books thataren't making me smarter, and
that's okay too.
So I read for learning, forcuriosity, but also for
enjoyment.
Xavier (08:37):
So how did it feel when one of your books became a
bestseller?
Amy Shoenthal (08:42):
I don't even know .
I don't even know how to answerthat I was shocked.
I was so surprised because I'm,you know, not a celebrity or
influencer level person and thatactually prevented me from
getting a book deal for a longtime.
You know, they look at how manyInstagram followers you have
and how many newslettersubscribers you have, and I only
have a couple thousand, so itwasn't seen as like a slam dunk.
(09:06):
We're definitely going to sell,you know, 15,000 books the
first week, and so I did notthink I was going to make any
bestseller lists.
But I was fine with that.
You know, I had made peace withit.
It wasn't like it wasn't even agoal that I had.
You know, I thought maybe I'dget in an Amazon category
somewhere.
You know, I just wanted to getthis book out in the world and
when my agent called me, I wasactually in a cab on my way from
(09:31):
a client meeting to go speak atGoogle.
So it was already a pretty goodday because I was in this
client meeting that I was happyabout, like I had done a pretty
good job, and then I was in acar on the way to go speak at
Google, which is a pretty bigdeal to go speak at Google.
And then my agent called andshe said I just want to let you
know you're like number 75 onthe USA Today bestseller list,
which means you like sold themost books.
(09:52):
You were number 75 sold themost books in the country this
week.
And I was like, are you kidding?
Like it was, it was a goal Ididn't even have for myself.
So to say I surpassed it likedoesn't even do it justice.
So the best surprise ever booklaunch week was better than I
could have even imagined.
Emma (10:13):
And did your book get on the bestseller list right away,
or did it take a few weeks?
Amy Shoenthal (10:18):
Yeah, first two weeks it was out it was on the
bestseller list, so it waspretty cool.
Emma (10:22):
Yeah, that's great.
So, speaking more on your book,can you talk to us more about
the four stages of the setbackcycle cycle establish, embrace,
explore and emerge?
Amy Shoenthal (10:33):
Sure.
So the setback cycle is reallya framework for helping people
navigate their own inevitablesetbacks, whether in their
career, school, education,relationships, life because
setbacks are just a veryuniversal human experience.
We will all have them.
There will be different levelsof setbacks, but what we can do
(10:56):
is understand what they are andhow to work through them.
And so I have this four E'sframework what they are and how
to work through them.
And so I have this four E'sframework.
The first phase is establishedbecause so often we don't even
realize that we're entering intoa setback and we kind of just
keep going along because youknow, we had this prior plan to
do something and we want to pushthrough and keep going, even if
(11:18):
it has failed or even if it'snot really serving us anymore.
So step one is just naming itand acknowledging the moment
you're in.
You are in a setback.
You have to go through thecycle to work your way out of it
.
So that's phase one establish.
Once you establish you're in asetback, you go to phase two,
which is embrace.
When I say embrace I don't meanlike get really happy that
(11:41):
you're in a setback and embraceit and welcome it, like we're
not happy to be here.
But by embrace I mean justacknowledge the reality of your
situation and take what you canfrom it.
Like you just said, the hardest, you know, the hardest things
are always the most rewarding.
And this is kind of when youhave to really dig into why this
(12:01):
moment is so hard, is sodifficult to get through.
Did you make a mistake?
Did someone else make a mistake?
Are you blaming them?
Are you, you know, kind ofgiving yourself a little bit of
compassion to help yourself getthrough it?
What information can youcollect that will inevitably
make you better in the long run?
So it's like embrace is reallyjust asking what can I learn
(12:24):
from this?
Whether I did something,whether someone else did
something like?
What is the information I cancollect to allow me to learn and
move forward?
So then, once you get throughembrace, you go to phase three,
which is explore, and explore isjust my favorite phase.
It is so much fun because inexplore, we get to do just that.
We get to go play.
(12:44):
We don't have to commit toanything yet, we just get to go
see what our options are.
What are we passionate about?
Where are our strengths?
I have a whole exercise thatallows you to figure out what
your unique superpower is,because even if we're all good
at the same stuff like you get areally good grade in writing or
(13:04):
reading there's a reason you'regood at that and so this helps
you dig into why you as a personare uniquely.
You know, a superhero.
So it's a very fun phase and itgives you a little bit more
clarity.
It takes the information yougot during embrace and helps you
put that information to use andyou can go test ideas out
within your community.
(13:25):
You know, see where yourpassions and your strengths
really intersect, and that'swhat helps you move to the final
phase of the setback cycle,which is Emerge.
This is when you come out ofyour setback and it's wonderful,
it feels great, but it's alsohard because now you really have
to sort of abandon the plansthat you had, mourn them and you
(13:48):
know, say goodbye and moveforward into whatever new plan
you have made and kind of act onwhatever strategy you have set
forth for yourself.
(14:12):
And what was the inspiration, ifany, for the like Establish,
embrace, explore and Emergerealized wow, I need a whole
phase for the people who don'teven realize they're in a
setback yet.
And I think at first it wasthree phases and it was five
phases and at some point we camedown to four.
So it was a lot of writing,especially when you're writing a
book.
But I feel this way aboutarticles and you know everything
(14:34):
that I do A lot of it is reallyjust like putting together a
puzzle, like, does this fit here?
Does this support this firstargument that I'm making?
And then you know you kind ofgo down into the later part of
the manuscript and you think,wait, actually maybe this goes
further up in the beginning, andso you're just kind of chopping
it up and putting it togetherin a way that you hope
eventually makes sense when itgoes to print.
Xavier (14:56):
So when you get a setback, how long would you stay
in the setback cycle before youthink the setback is over or it
ends?
Amy Shoenthal (15:06):
unfortunately, there's really no set time frame
for working through a setbackbecause everyone's setback is so
different.
You know, um, you're, let's say, you're going out the door in
the morning and you have um,like sports practice after
school, and you need to bringyour uniform, but you can't find
your uniform, and so you'rerunning all over the house.
You need to bring your uniform,but you can't find your uniform
, and so you're running all overthe house, you're digging
(15:26):
through your laundry, and thenyou're late and you miss, you
know, your math test at firstperiod.
Like that's a setback right,it's a setback because you made
a little mistake.
But you're going to workthrough that setback cycle over
the course of a day, probably,you know, maybe a couple of
weeks if you have to make up themath test.
That's a quick one, you know.
Then there are bigger setbacks,you know ending a friendship,
(15:48):
getting through a fight with afriend, things like that, and
that that takes quite a bit,quite a bit longer.
Emma (15:54):
And how does one know when they are through with one step
of the setback cycle and canmove on?
Amy Shoenthal (16:00):
I think knowing is really.
It's just so personal and it'sreally up to you.
I have so many conversationswith people that say they say,
oh, I think I'm an explorer nowand I have to be like I don't
know, I think you're still anembrace, like I don't think
you're quite there yet.
You know, I think you need alittle more information.
Or I just had a conversationwith a client of mine I help
(16:20):
coach people through you know,career setbacks, and and she
said you know, I think I'mfinally an explorer.
I'm so happy to tell you this.
And I said I don't know, Ithink you're in a merge and so
you kind of have to.
I think it can be somethingthat you decide for yourself,
but you can also share where youthink you are with other people
(16:41):
and see what they say, becausesometimes other people can see
you.
Where you think you are withother people and see what they
say, because sometimes otherpeople can see you more clearly
than you can see yourself.
Emma (16:48):
And what would you say is the most impactful stage of the
setback?
Amy Shoenthal (16:52):
cycle I think embraces, because that's where
you have to get introspectiveand collect the information and
make sure that you understandwhat sent you into this setback
so that you can prepare forfuture ones and try not to
repeat any.
You know bad patterns or thingslike that.
Xavier (17:12):
How do you know if you're going through a setback?
Amy Shoenthal (17:16):
I have something in the established phase called
the alarm clock checklist andit's meant to wake you up if you
think you might be sleepwalkingthrough a setback, because
sometimes we enter into setbacksand we are totally unconscious
of it and it takes something towake us up, to kind of shake us
and say you are in a setback.
Now I created this alarm clockchecklist so that hopefully we
(17:39):
can do this for ourselves.
But it depends.
It depends how ready you are toacknowledge the moment you're
in and be ready to change.
Two of the questions I ask inthe alarm clock checklist are
what are you energized by andwhat are you disengaged with?
So if you can think every daybefore you start your day or
even at the end of the day, youcan do this.
(18:01):
You can say okay, what did I dotoday, what was I energized by?
And it's not like what's thebest part of your day, because
that could be an easy like Ihugged my mom.
That's great.
What were you energized by?
That's much.
The answer to that is much morerevealing than what was your
favorite part of the day.
And then you can ask yourself asecond question, which is what
am I disengaged with?
(18:22):
Where was I really likechecking out when was I not
really, you know, wanting to bethere and if you ask yourself
those two questions, like if youjournal, you can ask yourself
those two questions every day,every couple of days and you can
really make sense of somepatterns to see if you might be
in a setback.
You know if that disengage listis really long or it has some,
(18:44):
you know, very clear throughline, it's time to really figure
out if there's something youcan do about it.
Emma (18:51):
So your book is more targeted towards adults, but how
do you think teenagers and evenyounger kids can apply the
lessons of the setback cycle totheir experiences?
Amy Shoenthal (19:01):
That's such a great question and I think they
can apply it in the same wayadults can.
I think teenagers, you know youare experiencing new things all
the time.
All the time You're learningnew things in school.
You're dealing, you know,unfortunately sometimes with
like complicated friendships orevolving and changing friend
group dynamics.
(19:22):
You're potentially playingsports and losing sometimes or
not making a team, so you'redealing with setbacks very
consciously all the time.
If you have these tools, though,I think you'll be able to
better navigate thatdisappointment when you have a
setback If you don't make theteam, if you don't get a good
(19:44):
grade, if you fail a class.
You know, go through the phases, go through the exercises.
There's like a little workbookat the back of the book.
You can go through that to justkind of help yourself through
it.
I actually think adults needthis book more because we can
fall so easily into routines andI think adults can become a
little bit more unconscious andout of practice at dealing with
(20:08):
setbacks, because we are, youknow, we're not always pushing
ourselves to learn new thingsand try new things as adults
when we get into our routine.
So I actually think you guysare much better set up to work
through the setback cyclebecause you're practicing it all
the time.
Xavier (20:28):
So, when you're writing your book, did you have any
setbacks?
And if you did, what was thebiggest setback?
Amy Shoenthal (20:36):
Oh my goodness, I had so many.
I mean, like I said, when Ifirst shopped this book around
and tried to get a publisher tobuy it, to publish it, I got a
lot of rejection.
I had a lot of people tellingme you know, you don't have a
big enough platform, meaning Idon't have a big enough social
media following.
I'm not an influencer orcelebrity that has a built-in
(20:56):
audience, so we're not surewho's going to read this book,
you know.
So that was a huge setback.
I was rejected so much.
But what I found in thoserejections was information and
feedback.
You know, it didn't.
It wasn't only luckily, itwasn't only you don't have a
platform, it was.
I don't think you have aplatform, so you need to build
it a little bit, and I think youneed to, you know, make these
(21:19):
couple of changes to the book ifyou want it to get published.
And a lot of the feedback wasvery consistent and I took the
feedback and I worked on theproposal for another like six
months and then I shopped itaround again and that's when I
got my agent and then my agentand I worked on the proposal for
(21:40):
another three months and then Igot the book deal.
And so from the time you knowit's about a year in between
when I first started shopping itaround to when I actually got
the book deal, and there was alot of back and forth and a lot
of setbacks and a lot of momentswhere I thought this might not
happen, but I kind of like tookmy own advice, like I, I
embraced it and I took thefeedback and I said, okay, this
(22:02):
is what I need to do to keepgoing.
And I remember one editor sayingto me wow, I read this.
You know, I had given her myproposal to read when I first
shopped it around and then Igave it to her the second time
and she said I can't believeyou're still working on this,
like so many people would havequit by now.
And I was like, no, this bookis happening.
This is absolutely happening.
(22:22):
So one thing I really learnedis motivation is the biggest
predictor of success and ifyou're motivated to do something
, you will succeed.
You will get it done becauseyou are just so motivated to
keep going, no matter how manytimes you get kicked down.
Emma (22:38):
What would be your most important piece of advice to
young writers?
Just keep writing.
Amy Shoenthal (22:44):
Keep writing, even if you get bad feedback,
even if someone tells you yourwriting isn't good.
Just keep writing and keepfinding outlets for your writing
.
When I graduated college, Itook a job in marketing and I
built up a really big marketingcareer for 20 years.
Right, I still do marketingbecause I needed to pay my bills
(23:06):
and pay off my student loansand I'm really proud of that
career.
But I'm also really proud thatI kept writing on the side.
You know, I never stopped andit took different forms.
You know, in the early, like2010s, I had a little travel
blog, you know.
Then I started writing forForbes.
At some point I wrote for areal estate publication and I
(23:27):
just, I just always foundopportunities to write and
eventually it took a long time.
It took a long, long time, buteventually I I got a lot of
visibility and success and I gotthe book deal and and here we
are- Aside from writing, you'realso a pretty well-known speaker
.
Emma (23:44):
Where do you speak at?
And is it always about thesetback cycle, or do you kind of
just have a variety of topicsyou talked about?
Amy Shoenthal (23:51):
I definitely speak on a variety of topics.
Back when crypto was like a big, hot new thing, I was doing a
lot of reporting on the world ofcrypto, and so I was invited to
speak about it because I thinkpeople were just very curious to
learn about it, and so theywanted to hear from a journalist
who was interviewing some ofthe most prominent voices in
crypto, and so I think I startedspeaking a lot around that time
(24:15):
.
I speak a lot aboutentrepreneurship because I have
interviewed many entrepreneursand I am a founder myself, and
so I speak about that.
I speak about parenthood andnavigating work with being a
parent and, you know, being awoman.
It's like there's a lot thereand there's a lot of, I think,
speaking engagements availableon those topics.
(24:36):
It's of great interest to a lotof working parents.
And, yes, over the past year, Ihave definitely been speaking a
lot about the setback cycle.
I just did a TEDx talk and, yes, over the past year, I have
definitely been speaking a lotabout the setback cycle.
I just did a TEDx talk, and sothat was very exciting.
That was all about, you know,the frame.
I took people through theframework for the setback cycle,
but I positioned it as you knowwhy setbacks actually set the
stage for reinvention.
(24:58):
So I talked about the moredramatic side of setbacks.
Emma (25:02):
And what would you say is more impactful the speaking part
of your career or the writingpart of your career?
Amy Shoenthal (25:07):
Well, I think they go together really because,
like you guys, you know, I getinvited onto a lot of podcasts
and I have a lot of people whosay you know, I bought your book
but I haven't read it yet.
Tell me about it.
Sometimes people want to digestinformation like this, you know
, in an interview format, and Ihave the information and I'm
happy to share it in whateverway you want to digest it,
(25:31):
whether that is sitting down andreading a you know 200
something page book, whether itis listening to the audio book,
or whether it's listening to meon a podcast, or listening to me
speak on a stage about thisinformation that I've spent
years collecting and becoming anexpert on.
So I think it's really all ofthe above they work together.
Emma (25:53):
And what would be one piece of advice you would give
to a younger person who maybehas just experienced their first
big setback, or a very lastingsetback that has an impact on
their life, either negative orpositive?
What would you, what's onepiece of advice you would give
them?
Amy Shoenthal (26:09):
I would just say your world may feel like it is
caving in right now, but yourlife is just beginning.
Like this will be a blip oneday.
Just work through it, getthrough it and I promise this
will not affect you in the wayyou are feeling it right now.
You know at some point in thefuture.
(26:30):
But don't ignore it.
Like don't ignore those reallycomplicated, difficult, like
sometimes terrible feelings.
Do not ignore them.
You really need to absorb themand feel them because otherwise,
if you try to push them down,they're going to come up in
unhealthy ways down the road.
So you will get through this,you will be better for it and it
will not feel as big as it doesright now.
Emma (26:50):
Well, thank you so much.
It was lovely speaking to youand I think us, and as well as
our audience, will learn a lotthrough this episode.
Amy Shoenthal (26:58):
Thank you, thank you so much.
Emma (27:00):
Thank you.
So much.
Thank you for listening and Iknow all the shows.
You probably listened to saythis, but if you enjoy this
episode, please follow and ratethe podcast.
Xavier (27:10):
Also, we would love to connect with you and hear your
thoughts about our episodes.
You can find us on Instagram orvisit our website.
The links are in the show notes.
Thanks for tuning in.
Bye.
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