May 30, 2023 • 37 mins
He was an athletic legend at East High School in Denver as well as the University of Colorado, which is why he’s in both of their Hall of Fames. Chuck Williams was also a journeyman through the ABA and NBA in the late 1960’s and into the 1970’s, but he almost wasn’t. Chuck was drafted by the 76’ers out of college, but he got ousted by a player who came over from the Lakers in a trade for Wilt Chamberlain. Chuck decided basketball wasn’t meant to be and came home. Thankfully he kept playing in AAU leagues while getting his master’s degree from CU. His professional journey started a year later, and he became one of the building blocks for today’s NBA.
After his career was over, Chuck had a hand in a couple of successful businesses, neither of which had to do with his undergrad and graduate degrees of Physical Education. Reinvention can be anything you want it to be.
Hosted by Susie Wargin
After his career was over, Chuck had a hand in a couple of successful businesses, neither of which had to do with his undergrad and graduate degrees of Physical Education. Reinvention can be anything you want it to be.
Hosted by Susie Wargin
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I was supposed to make the team. There was a spot open, played
very well. There's right ups aboutme. They're going to make the team.
But during that summer they made abig trade for Chamberlain. Chamberlink went
to the Lakers, and with thatthey got five players, one of which
was an All Star guard. Hetook my position, and my ego got
(00:20):
to me and I said, I'mdone with this game, and I came
home. Welcome to Cut, Traded, Fired, Retired, a weekly podcast
featuring conversations with professional athletes and coacheswho have experienced being cut, traded,
fired, and or they're retired.I'm your host, Susie Wargen. If
social media had been around when ChuckWilliams was growing up, there is no
doubt his name would have been wellknown beyond the state of Colorado. Chuck
(00:44):
was a nineteen sixties DPS kid fromEast High School, and he excelled in
multiple sports, including football, basketball, baseball, and track. He probably
could have played both football and basketballat SEU. In fact, coach Eddie
Crowder tried, but Chuck stuck withbasketball. He was drafted by the seventy
six ers out of college and shouldhave made the team except some guy named
Wilt Chamberlain was traded to the Lakersand they sent five players to Philly.
(01:07):
One of those guys took Chuck spot, and so he went back to Boulder
thinking he was done with basketball,but he wasn't. He kept playing with
amateurs, and eventually the ABA camecalling, and Chuck spent eight seasons playing
professionally between the ABA and the MBA, including with the Denver Nuggets. He's
in multiple Hall of Fames and hisstories should be more well known as one
(01:27):
of the building blocks of the MBAwe see today, Ladies and gentlemen.
Chuck Williams traded fired retired podcasts withSusie Wargin. Hello, Chuck Williams.
How are you. I'm good.I'm good. How are you? I'm
good. I feel like I'm talkingto Barry White. Do you ever get
that? I bet you do.I bet you do. It is great
(01:51):
to have you here. Everybody isbasketball crazy right now, so I wanted
to add to that frenzy and helppeople learn about just kind of the I
don't want to call you grandfathers ofthe game, but the you know,
some of our pioneers of the game, which which you really are. Yeah,
exactly right. You can call thisgrandfathers long. It's been a couple
of hot minutes, hasn't it.It's been a lot of fun recently.
(02:12):
You're in the East High School Hallof Fame, the Chassil Hall of Fame,
the CEU Hall of Fame, andthe Colorado Sports Hall of Fame.
And you were a two time ABAAll Star. So you have definitely had
your fair share of basketball, notonly in this state but also throughout the
country. You've been on a fewteams, So we're going to kind of
go through all of that. ExactlyYeah, play coast the coast, but
Colorado has always been my home andthat's why you're still here, which is
(02:36):
fantastic. So let's go back tokind of your beginnings. You were born
in California. You come out toColorado when you're about eight years old.
What was the reason for moving here? How are we so lucky to get
you here? Well, I wasborn in a little place called Pittsburgh,
California, which is in the BayArea, and my father was stationed there
in the army during World War Two. When the war ended, a lot
(02:59):
of our family from the South movedto Denver, for whatever reasons, and
ultimately that's what brought us to Denver, and then you end up going to
East High School, went to EastHigh School, grade high school, went
to University of Colorado, and Iwas able to play here with the Neggats.
So it's kind of funny how yourpath came here so interestingly at eight
(03:19):
years old, and then so muchof your sports life was here as well.
Let's talk about when you were atDenver East. You're a three sport
athlete. You lettered in basketball,football, and track. When did basketball
kind of become your favorite? Oh? Did you have another one? And
baseball and baseball? Oh you didtwo sports at one time. Track was
a side track I should say.Okay, yeah, my sophomore year I
(03:42):
played baseball, and the track coachat the time got into my ego.
They always sneak in. Don't sayyou're a good four forty at that time
forty you got the body for that, So we got to my ego.
I went out for track and Ijust hated it. Did you, Oh
you talk about a waste of time, But yeah, I went out for
(04:04):
trek and I lasted that year.But the next year, my senior year,
I went back to baseball, whichI was much better at. What
position did you play in baseball?Third base? I had a pretty big
arms. You have to have thatat third base. Wow? Nice?
How about football? Would you playin football? Of all things? I
played in a single wing coach Panic, who's a Hall of Fame, National
(04:27):
Hall of Fame, High School Hallof Fame football coach. He always had
this single wing. So I hadone hundred and sixty five pounds. Was
a tight end if you can youwere a tight end. Oh my goodness.
I was tight end. And Ialso during that time period, you
played both offense and defense and waspretty successful. Yeah. Because when you
ended up going to see you,Eddie Crowter wanted you to play football,
(04:49):
didn't he? Yeah, Eddie,he started getting into into my ear.
But I chose wisely and did notplay football. I saw the guys up
the in this size and said,no, that's not for me. That's
funny. When you're at Denver Eastyou win two state titles. Yeah,
and then what happened with kind ofthe recruiting process? Did you have more
(05:09):
than just see you knocking on yourdoor? I had a few schools,
but you know, I was notheavily recruited for whatever reasons. Yeah,
we would won a championship in footballmy junior year. We were ranked number
one the next year my senior year, but we lost in the semifinals,
and basketball we lost as juniors.My senior year we won and we actually
(05:31):
I think we at that time saida state record. We scored one hundred
and three points, which I imagineeight minute quarters and no three point line.
There was a lot of you didn'thave a three point line then?
No? No, oh wow,way before the three point line. King,
Holy cow. Okay, so youwon one title in basketball, in
title Basco, one title in footballand football, but yet not super heavily
(05:54):
recruited. So why the decision forSEE you? Then? You know,
sox Walzeth was a coach at CEUat that time, and see was the
school. It was the big nameschool in the state. I was recruited
by DU who was Division one atthat time and had a very good program,
and CSU also, but CEU itwas the school for me, and
it was really never a big thoughtabout that. Did you have anything out
(06:17):
of state going on? Some small, small schools, yeah, but not
the D one opportunity that you hadhere, right, all right? So
you don't play football, you justplay basketball at CEU. What was that
experience like being in Boulder? Youknow, Boulder's only thirty miles from Denver,
but it's like going cross country,it still is. That was in
(06:38):
sixty five and it still is.I enjoyed my time up there in Boulder.
As you know, Boldre's not areal diverse community, but I have
lifelong friends that I've developed during thattime period and really enjoyed my time up
there. And I met my wife. Oh is that where you guys met?
(06:58):
Oh? Wonderful. She was astudent there as well. I was
a sophomore and she was a freshmancoming in and actually we met the very
first day of registration. She likesto tell the story that a lady this
year was with And interestingly enough,this lady was I had dated her in
high school. She was showing heraround and this was up on the hill
(07:24):
and we were going to Tallagi's,the old three two drinking. Yes,
the institution, the institution, andwe met crossing the street and the rest
is history. Fifty six years ofmarriage. Oh my gosh, Chuck,
that's a great story. I lovethat Okay. So then as you go
through your career with CEU, tellme about going to the next level because
(07:44):
you get drafted in nineteen sixty eightin the sixth round by the seventy six
ers. Yeah. And the seventysixers had just won the World Championship with
Wilt Chamberlain, as they said atthat time, one of the greatest NBA
teams ever. I think the onlyhad two selections. First round guy Shayler
Halliman was his name. He wentto Utah State. They brought both of
(08:07):
us out for the summer to playin the Baker League, which is the
ProAm league which a lot of theprofessional guys on the East Coast and the
amateurs would play. My first gameplaying I had to guard a guy by
the name of Pearl Monroe. I'veheard of him, which was a very
(08:28):
interesting experience, yeah for me.But played well that year. And another
interesting thing was my coach at thattime was a young John Cheney who became
a Hall of Fame coach from Temple. He was really very helpful to me.
I was supposed to make the team, there was a spot open,
played very well. There was rightups about me, They're going to make
(08:50):
the team. But during that summerthey made a big trade for Chamberlain.
Chamberlain went to the Lakers and withthat they got five players, one of
which was an All Star guard bythe name of Archie Clark. So he
took my position, and it wasinterested for me to go try out with
Baltimore. But my ego got tome and I said, I'm done with
(09:11):
this game. And I came home. You came home. I came home.
Oh my gosh, I did.Yeah. I went back to school.
I stayed out in a year andcontinue to play basketball au stuff and
not with CU. Right, wasyour eligibility done? Okay? Yeah,
And so just continued to play ball. Seventy sixers asked me to come back
(09:31):
and try out again a year later, and I did. They were I
think we're gonna make me an offer. But the ABA had been around for
three years at that point in time, and Pittsburgh asked me to come and
try out. I flew out.I was out there for the day we
tried out. They had some scrimmagesand they offered me a Noka contract the
(09:52):
very first day. I said,okay, interesting, did you finish school
at see you? I did youdid finish okay, And then you're playing
AAU ball Are you making money doingthat? No, we weren't making any
You're just playing ball, just playingball. So to get that contract with
Pittsburgh was a big deal. Itwas a big deal. My first contract
(10:13):
was for seventeen thousand, five hundreddollars. Oh, jack pot, Chuck,
Well that's nineteen seventy's that's pretty good. Well, it was more than
my friends weren't making. Absolutely.That was when houses cost literally twenty three
thousand dollars, you know, Imean the interest rate was twenty percent,
But that was good money back then. Tell me a little bit about when
(10:35):
the seventy six ers release you andyou say I'm done with this, but
you still keep playing. What's yourmindset on what you're going to do with
the rest of your life, becauseyour life was obviously very different if at
that time you said I'm done withbasketball, and you definitely weren't because you
played eight more seasons professionally. NumberOne, I didn't really think a whole
lot about professional basketball until my senioryear at SEU. For whatever reasons,
(11:03):
did you not think you could?Yes? And no, I had a
great senior season our team wasn't thebest, but I averaged eighteen points and
played against great players that went tothe NBA, Joejoe White, stud Lands
from Nebraska and others and had greatgames. And so that's when I thought
(11:24):
there was a chance for me toplay. As I said, when I
got cut from the seventy sixers,you know, my ego game, and
I was really upset because I playedvery well in that Baker League and the
articles they were written Bob, mymind was already on the team. I
had made the team, So youknow, I just got upset and came
home, but for the love ofthe game, because I loved playing basketball
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and I love the camaraderie of beingaround the players, and coming back to
Boulder, I was able to bewith my friends, and so we just
continued to let's play. Because that'sone of the things with this podcast house
is trying to figure out when youhave that setback, how you move forward.
And I think it's difficult. Imean, you're probably what twenty two
twenty three at that point, soyour ego does get in the way a
(12:09):
lot, especially when you're younger.I think as we get older, we
go we have no filter and don'tcare as much, but when you're younger,
you do care, and then thatcompletely can change your whole path on
what you take in life exactly.So it's good you were open to going
back to basketball. Oh yeah,there was. There was no question one
way or another. I was goingto continue to play and to have fun.
(12:31):
And it was a good year offbecause my game became better and better
as years went on. Early on, I was a good athlete, and
you know, I'd done some thingsand with basketball, but I learned the
game being off that year. Fundamentals, yeah, fundamentals, and just being
able to have more confidence in myselfout there on the court playing against a
(12:54):
lot of different really good players.I mean it's interesting. There's you know,
you see the NBA and at thattime, I think there were twelve
NBA teams and so you know,your chance of making these teams is very
difficult, right, So I'd beable to play against a lot of great
players. That was extremely helpful.And that year, that that summer I
(13:15):
played with the Baker League, playingagainst the pros and best amateurs. And
then that training camp I played withthe World champions. Yeah, and you
kept up with them, right,Yeah, Okay, no question, So
no one you could be there,right, it took a gap year before
a gap year was cool, Jack, exactly right. So after your gap
year, yeah, you get onwith Pittsburgh and that's where And I'm always
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fascinated too. And I have agreat conversation with Danissell about the ABA versus
the NBA. So when you goto the ABA, do you latch onto
that mentality of you're kind of alittle brother, but you still have some
amazing players and there's just that coolcamaraderie within the ABA, even though you
switched around to a few different teams. Teams, I mean, just some
(14:01):
unbelievable players that came through the ABA. Right. Well, that was the,
if you can say, a goodthing for me, playing with various
teams. I was able to playwith and against lots of great players,
lots of great players. I'll gothrough this list a little bit and ask
you about you go Pittsburgh, Youdo come to Denver to the Rockets seventy
(14:22):
two, You go to the SanDiego Conquistadors the Cues for a couple of
years. You then go to theColonels where you're on a team with Dan
Issel, with Dan and artists Gilmore. Yeah, pretty good team. I
didn't adapt to that team very well. Oh interesting, how come? Yeah,
Denver had let me go in anexpansion draft when San Diego came about
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the San Diego Conquistadors, who wascoached by Casey Jones, Hall of Fame
player and coach himself, and theylet me go on the expansion draft.
I went to San Diego, hadto try out with them. Casey immediately
said, you know our guy Phistically, that was my best year because Casey
just let me run the team.He was really the guy that just set
(15:05):
me to in my mind a differentlevel. You know, when I talked
to a lot of guys about this, Chuck, coaches have their schemes,
they have their game plans, butthe ones that adapt to the strengths of
their players are the ones that endup being the most successful. You have
to figure out what you got rightand then make it all work right.
Well, there there are those coachesthat think that they're format how they want
(15:28):
to play. You know, theycan sit square into a round hole.
Yeah, it does. And that'sthat's what happened with me when I got
traded to Kentucky. Yeah, Idon't know if I the oh, you
can say it. Nobody's listening.Told Casey we had that year of Casey
Jones. Very next year, Caseyjumps through the NBA. The coach in
(15:52):
Washington, the owner brought in WiltChamberlain to be the coach of the team.
And Wilt was a different guy.Wait, so you played well,
kind of played with him with theseventy six ers, and that night you
didn't play with him, but youwere in that camp. And now he's
your coach. Right now, he'sour coach. And he had a different
style of playing. Casey was morecontrolled. Wilt wanted to run, run,
(16:15):
run, run, run. Thatdidn't fit at that time with my
personality and how I wanted to play. Didn't get along real well. And
so I had asked them in themiddle of the season that they could trade
me, and they did. Sothat's how that's how up in Kentucky right
in the middle of the year,and unfortunately I just never felt comfortable with
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Kentucky and playing with that team.Great guys, great guys. That was
just me personally. And in anothermove, because San Diego, I just
loved playing there in San Diego andthought I was going to be there for
a while, but it was theABA and things happen. Everything you change
around a lot. Well, andfrom there so you you're only with the
(16:59):
Colonels for that last part of thatthat seventy four season. Then you go
to the Memphis Sounds. Memphis Sounds, Yeah, and I enjoyed playing there.
I had a very good year.Mike Storn was the president of that
team. His daughter Hannah Storm.We know Hannah Storm, Yeah, exactly.
Oh interesting, I didn't know thatconnection. Yeah, Mike was the
(17:19):
president of the team, and Ihave a picture taken of me and that
was framed and he wrote some reallynice things and said that I should be
All Pro, which I did notmake the All Star team that year.
I was pretty disappointed. But yeah, yeah, that Memphis was another team
that was a lot of fun.We had good guys on there. That
(17:41):
was a good one for you.Yeah. From there you go to you
have a stint with the Baltimore clause. Memphis folded and it went to somehow
got to Baltimore that became the Baltimoreclause. That did you ever play a
game with them or did they actuallyfold before they did anything? I think
they had maybe two or three exhibitiongames okay with the NBA, and then
(18:04):
they folded. Okay, because Danielwas a part of that as well.
Dan was a part of that.Yeah, he came. I can't remember
how I came, because when theydisbanded that team, somehow Larry Brown reached
out and brought me to the Nuggets. You and Dan both came to the
Nuggets from their right same time.So I ended up go from the Baltimore
(18:26):
clause to Indi nap with the Nuggetswho had David Thompson, Daniel, Bobby
Jones, Ralph Simpson who had beena teammate of mine with the Rockets,
oh yeah, and Byron Beck whohad been a teammate, Little Moni Tao
who came with David Claude Terry wason that team, and Marvin the human
(18:48):
eraser? Right, So wow?Was that a fun time? Did you
enjoy your time with the Nuggets?Had a great time? Two seasons right,
a season and a half. Okay, reasons for that, but no,
I had. I had a greattime. That that was the best
team that I'd ever played on.And to be able to start and contribute
and just felt every night you hadan opportunity to win the game, right,
(19:14):
was very unique, and that wasjust a lot of fun and a
great group I think to play with. Like it was just a really good
group of iconic players. Oh,no, question, three hall of famers.
I have a picture the program thatthey had the Nuggets hosted the All
Star Oh yeah, yeah. Itwas the Nuggets team against selected All Stars.
(19:36):
And on the program, there's ourteam and I'm looking at that.
There's three Hall of famers, Dan, Bobby, and David. There's Larry
Brown who's a Hall of Famer.That's impressive. Interesting guys, Yeah,
no kidding. And then so you'rea season and a half with the Nuggets
and you said, there's an interestingstory where you leave the and then you
(20:00):
go to the Buffalo Braves, whichwas the original Clippers. They moved to
San Diego and became the La Clippers. So you were with them when they
were the Buffalo Brave. That wasa very difficult time, okay for me
from a standpoint that that year,that Nuggets year, I had played very
well and we were a very successfulteam, including the playoffs, which a
(20:22):
lot of people don't remember it's beenso long ago. We had to go
through Kentucky to get to New Yorkto play for the championship, and we
fell behind two games to one toKentucky. We were playing that fourth game
in Kentucky. If we'd have lostthat game, I don't think there was
any way we're coming back from athree one. Okay, we're just that
(20:45):
good. It came down we weretied with him, came down to the
last shot on that game and drewa play up obviously for David. We
get the ball into David, butthe immediately double teams. I'm standing out
right inside the three point line.David throws it to me. I'd make
(21:07):
that shot, nothing but bottom.Everybody went crazy two two, and we
held Serve after that and then wonthat series. If we had not won
that game, I don't think we'dhave gone to play ultimately for that championship.
Wow. Carl Shear, former GM, comes out, hugs me,
check, you're gonna end your careerhere and you're gonna be with us,
(21:30):
and blah blah blah. It wasgoing. It was crazy. It was
really pretty cool. The next year, mid year, I'm in Buffalo,
New York. Wow. Yeah,So I was very disappointed, and because
we had gone into the NBA thatthe next year, and so my mindset
at that point in time was notthe best for playing basketball. Not only
(21:52):
that, this was nineteen seventy seven. You can google the Blizzard of seventy
seven in Buffalo. This thing lastedI can't remember how long, but the
temperatures would get down to minus fiftyseven with the wind chill factor. Oh
yeah, that's brutal. Right,So that's brutal. That was different.
Well, and it's difficult, especiallylike you talked about San Diego. You
(22:15):
thought that's where you were going tobe forever. You come back home and
you're in Denver and you think,Okay, now this is where I'm going
to be forever. And then yougo to Buffalo exactly. So you finish
out your career then with Buffalo.When did a decision to retire? My
second year with Buffalo, I didnot want to start. My knees had
been bothering me. I'm wearing theseelectric stem things all the time, getting
(22:40):
shot, and so I wanted toI wanted to continue, but I wanted
to come off the bench and playfifteen minutes, ten minutes, fifteen that'd
be great. I could play anothercouple of years with that tiny archer Ball
was with Buffalo at that time,Randy Smith, both all stars pros,
and I said, this is great. You know, third guard come off
(23:02):
the bench, blah blah blah.Well and preseason tiny tears his achilles tendon.
Oh done, yes, So thatman I had to start. And
that was sort of the beginning ofthe end because my knees at the end
of the year, which is theywere shot. And you played a lot,
Chuck, I played a lot.I read and again, sometimes I
(23:22):
get my stuff off of Wikipedia,which isn't always true that you hold the
single season record for the most gamesplayed in a single season of ninety fifty
nine when you're with San Diego andthat same year year with Kentucky you played
thirty three games. Ninety games ina season. You played well more than
that when you consider preseason games,right and then play posted. Yeah,
(23:44):
right, it was over a hundredgames. And dan Isla and I talked
about this because he one of thereasons they call him the horse is he
played all the time. And there'sa difference between playing hurt and playing injured.
I think guys from your era playedhurt a lot, sometimes played injured.
Probably shouldn't have been playing when youwere injured, but that was the
You just kept playing. Oh yeah, what was the mentality like always going
(24:07):
out there, always being available andalways playing ninety games plus in a season.
That's crazy. I don't know.I just obviously I enjoy playing.
I wanted to be on the court. I didn't want someone taking my place,
yeah where I should be, Andespecially with the league at that point
in time, you just never knewwhat was going to happen. Oh,
especially the uncertainty of the ABA.Yeah, that's exactly right. So we
(24:32):
played with turned ankles, slowing ankles. I remember being hitting the ribs and
playing with that and hard to breathe, neck issues. Nothing that would,
from an injury standpoint, to reallykeep you out, but maybe you shouldn't
be playing and give it some rest. So how often did you get a
court of zone shot or something thatyou look back and go, Guys in
(24:56):
today's game would just be they besitting on the bench, nobody's going to
prop them up out there. Butyou guys were propped up off And I
think there were there were a fewtimes, not not a lot, but
there were there were certainly a fewtimes. Another thing for playing all these
games, and this is it wasjust part of the game at that time,
(25:17):
the way the ABA was. Wedidn't have our own planes, we
didn't stand the best hotels, wedidn't eat the best food. We did
you fly commercial. We flew commercial. And at the beginning of my career
we were back in Coach, whichis all these big guys in Coach.
I can't even imagine something like thathappening. That's exactly right. So it
(25:38):
just was a different time here.But they also because we were always up
and down and up and down andplaying in one city one and then next
night here going to bed Lake,getting up early, some of the trainers
would give out speed. I nevertook any, but there were the guys
that did, and I understand why, oh, absolutely well. And so
(26:02):
for people that don't know, now, you know, guys get on the
private plane. And I only knowit from a Bronchos standpoint, but I'm
assuming it's the same thing Nuggets andAvalanche and whatnot. As soon as your
game is over, you are busedto the airport to the private hanger where
you get on the private plane,and then you get home and you're able
to get back to your house.Well, if you're flying commercial, you're
sitting there in an airport. Thatis mind boggling to me. Places that
(26:26):
we were plane Oh yeah, NorthCarolina and Virginia. Yeah, it spent
some time ago. But I wasinvited by the Nuggets to go on a
trip. I went to the gameand saw the game, went out to
the airport, got on this planethat had unbelievable food. We arrived in
(26:48):
La around at whatever, two o'clockin the morning something like that. We're
at the Four Seasons Hotel. Ohyeah, sleep, They go to practice,
I do whatever, go to thegame, and repeat, and I'm
home. I'm home the next I'mhome the next day. Oh yeah,
I didn't have to show anybody aticket. You didn't have to do anything
(27:10):
nothing. Yeah. When they saythey had to play a back to back
game, I'm like, are youkidding me? In luxury style? Oh
my goodness. Yeah yeah. Weplayed back to back games all the time.
Skip a day, play another day. I mean it's yeah, it
was just different. Do you lookback, Chuck and think how I mean,
(27:33):
everybody always looks back at their youthand goes, oh, it was
so much harder for me back thenthan it is these guys now. Or
do you also just appreciate that lifeevolves and the game evolves, and time
and money and everything evolves. Imean, the contracts are different. You
didn't have guaranteed contracts for millions ofdollars. You had a seventeen thousand dollars
contract your first contract, and youwere just keeping you know, in there
(27:55):
every day so you can make yourpaycheck. Right. No, I don't
begrudge the guys in this. Ithink it's great. I feel strongly that
we were a part of making thegame what it is today. Yeah.
Interestingly enough, there is a docuseriesit's going to come out about the ABA.
(28:17):
Oh are you in it? I'min it? Nice man, I
can't say a lot. Oh okay? Did you sign a non disclosure?
Yeah? I did? Okay,Oh I can't wait. I did.
Can you say what it's going tobe on or no? You're going to
be blown away. Everybody who seesit, they're going to be blown away.
There needs to be more of anappreciation, more knowledge. The people
(28:37):
that grew up in the seventies knowabout the ABA, but the people of
today's game, the younger generation,they don't know that league, and I
think it's so important that they understandwho came from there, right and then
came to the NBA, and justhow everything kind of evolved between the two
leagues and what was going on withthe back and forth and who's better.
And I mean, the ABA dida better job than any other startup league
(28:59):
has done in any of the othersports to give competition to the big brother,
the NBA. And when they consolidatedthe leagues the very first All Star
Game, out of twenty four players, twelve of them were ABA players.
Half of them, Yeah, they'vewanted those the players that the NBA guys
red arback hated the ABA, justhated the ABA because really, yeah,
(29:21):
because the ABA somehow was paying moremoney. They took the best NBA referees
because they were being paid the bestreferees from the NBA, And then they
started drafting some of the best players. And the ABA started the three point
line. If you don't have threepoint shooters today in the game, you
(29:42):
don't win games. Nope, Imean that three point maybe a little too
much in my point of view.But but the All Star weekend, the
All Star weekend, that big timestarted here in Denver last All Star weekend
and we had you know, entertainersthat were there. That was where it
started to be more of a show. Yeah, and it's it's progressed from
(30:04):
there. But that Denver one's iconic. In the old Nip mcmickle Arena,
I think it held like seventeen thousand, but they broke the fire coat and
put more people in there than wasallowed. I mean it was crazy.
Oh yeah, and so that thatwhole thing. The NBA took. The
one thing that I think they madea big mistake, it's not taking the
(30:26):
red, white and blue basketball,and the reason being is that that's just
more entertainment. People from around thearenas could watch the flight of the ball,
see the rotation of the basketball.I mean that was very helpful for
us in shooting because you have acertain rotation, you start getting off and
(30:47):
you see, well that's not howI normally shoot. Well I never thought
about that, Chuck, that's reallyinteresting. Yeah, the ABA basketball,
I thought they should have taken that, but you know, the ABA was
dominated by guards and small forwards.I didn't have that many. Taught you
the artist Gilmour is of the world. And now you sort of look at
the game, not so much thatwith the Nuggets with but you look at
(31:07):
the game, that game is realperimeter. They've taken it to a different
level. The Steph curries of theworld and just shooting from way out oh
yeah, Gordon and that kind ofthing. But that was the ABA game.
It was up and down, andit was the start of playing above
the rim. Julius Irving's you know, doctor Jay and these guys they played
(31:30):
above the rim. So there's alot that the NBA took from the ABA.
Absolutely, it would not be thesame game without the influences of the
ABA. Right. Oh, Ican't wait for that documentary to come out.
That's so cool. All right,So after you retire, Chuck,
what do you do? What haveyou done for the last um forty years?
(31:51):
You still look great. You've gotteninto the Colora Sports Hall of Fame
and so now we get to seeit the dinners there, which is fantastic.
No, I've been blessed. Thelast six seven years been just really
fulfilling for me. But when Iretired, I went into business with the
team doctor for the Nuggets, gotby the name of David Greenberg, and
we opened up Sports medicine clinics herein town. It was called SCORE for
(32:15):
Sports Conditioning and Orthopedic Rehabilitation. Iwould do the marketing for it, and
doctors would refer their patients to usthat had injuries, sports medicine, injuries,
surgeries and that kind of thing.So I would get out to talk
to them and trainers and this,that and the other. That did that
for about ten years, and thatwas fulfilling. We had a ton of
(32:38):
publicity at that time. It wasreally really interesting. We got the articles
and at that time the Rocky MountainNews and diver posts. We were on
KOA Radio. They do specials onus. We had our own sports medicine
show on Sundays. It was interesting. Then I went completely opposite. It's
(33:00):
too long a story to tell you. I got into it, but I
went into the environmental industry. You'veprobably heard of asbestos. Oh yeah,
Well I got into the asbestos abatementindustry, which is still big. I'm
in real estate and so I gotpeople moving into houses built before nineteen seventy
eight. And so I was like, you got a test for it,
and then you got to get adebated Yeah. And so I had a
(33:21):
partner grew the business and we becamea fairly large company. I was in
places I'd never thought I would everbe. I bet. We did a
lot of work over at the oldRocky Mountain Arsenal and some of those major
industrial facilities Rocky Flats, yeah,Larry Air Force Base, Yeah, Simmons,
(33:43):
Lockheed Martin, and we did workreasonally too. Super interesting. What
was your degree in at CEO.I thought I was going to be a
coach, and I got a physicaleducation degree and got a master's in physical
education. That's when I came backfrom Philadelphia. But this was learning on
the fly. I removed asbestos,we went to the classes, got the
(34:05):
certifications done on the hazmat suit,respirators, the whole shebang. Wow.
Learned the business from the ground floor. That was very successful. Even went
back to Washington. We were SmallBusiness of the Year for Region eight and
they brought us back to DC andtoured the Capitol and the whole Very interesting.
Yeah, that's cool. You area great story of reinvention. That's
(34:29):
one of the things I love tochat about with my guess is you're never
too old to try something different.And look at you, I mean,
just completely absolute different industries. Youget a little education on something and if
it's something you think, in thiscase, make a buck. Yeah,
a leap of faith. Absolutely,you just do it. Are you actually
retired? Retired? Now? I'mkind of retired. My son Scott has
(34:52):
a commercial and residential moving company,so I try to get him business wherever
I can. So I'll get outat a little marketing for him. I've
got a few good moves. Ohthat's great. What's the name of his
business. It's First Class Movers.Okay, good? And then any grandkids
or anything? Do you have havegrandkids and great grandkids? Oh? Wow,
(35:14):
yeah? A lot of babysitting,I bet there is. Yeah,
your drop off daycare. Sometimes ofcourse you get that telephone call and I
need some help. Babysitter canceled.Oh it's great. Oh that's fun,
Chuck, that's great. All right. I always finished my interviews with a
question about as you look back overyour career and you have ups and downs,
(35:38):
and there's times where you were donewith basketball when the seventy six ers,
you know, you weren't on theroster there, what would be your
advice to people when they have setbacksin life and trying to kind of get
that momentum to do the same thingas you did with basketball or maybe something
different, how you kind of havethat motivation to keep moving forward. For
me, it was it was alwayshaving faith in myself and they want to
(36:05):
and the discipline basketball. It wasa basketball I got mad with basketball,
but I'm going to do my thingand I got back in it, and
I did well with that my business, you know, and had to do
something. You know, I justI just believed in myself, always believed
in myself, and I was neverafraid to take that leap of faith.
(36:28):
A lot of things didn't go rightand got through that, but just one
step at a time, Yeah,one step at a time, getting up
every day and having the faith inyourself and being a spiritual person, feeling
like there's someone that's helping me outalong the way. Chuck, this has
been fantastic, great. I appreciateyour time. Yeah, thank you,
(36:52):
And I hope more people listen toyour story, that they look at that
documentary and understand how important the rootsof the NBA and the aba R to
our game today. I think peoplewill enjoy it. Thanks Chuck, Thank
you, Thank you. Chuck WilliamsI am really looking forward to that documentary
about the ABA. Hey, ifyou've made it this far, thank you.
If you like this episode or anyof the others, please share it
(37:14):
with somebody who might enjoy it orneed some words of wisdom. New episodes
of Cut, Traded, Fired,Retired come out every Tuesday on nearly every
podcast platform. Get social with thepodcast on Twitter and Instagram at CTFR podcast,
and also check out the website CTFRpodcast dot com. I'm your host,
Susie Wargin, and again thank youfor listening, and until next time,
(37:35):
please be careful, be safe,and be kind. Take care
I was supposed to make the team. There was a spot open, played
very well. There's right ups aboutme. They're going to make the team.
But during that summer they made abig trade for Chamberlain. Chamberlink went
to the Lakers, and with thatthey got five players, one of which
was an All Star guard. Hetook my position, and my ego got
(00:20):
to me and I said, I'mdone with this game, and I came
home. Welcome to Cut, Traded, Fired, Retired, a weekly podcast
featuring conversations with professional athletes and coacheswho have experienced being cut, traded,
fired, and or they're retired.I'm your host, Susie Wargen. If
social media had been around when ChuckWilliams was growing up, there is no
doubt his name would have been wellknown beyond the state of Colorado. Chuck
(00:44):
was a nineteen sixties DPS kid fromEast High School, and he excelled in
multiple sports, including football, basketball, baseball, and track. He probably
could have played both football and basketballat SEU. In fact, coach Eddie
Crowder tried, but Chuck stuck withbasketball. He was drafted by the seventy
six ers out of college and shouldhave made the team except some guy named
Wilt Chamberlain was traded to the Lakersand they sent five players to Philly.
(01:07):
One of those guys took Chuck spot, and so he went back to Boulder
thinking he was done with basketball,but he wasn't. He kept playing with
amateurs, and eventually the ABA camecalling, and Chuck spent eight seasons playing
professionally between the ABA and the MBA, including with the Denver Nuggets. He's
in multiple Hall of Fames and hisstories should be more well known as one
(01:27):
of the building blocks of the MBAwe see today, Ladies and gentlemen.
Chuck Williams traded fired retired podcasts withSusie Wargin. Hello, Chuck Williams.
How are you. I'm good.I'm good. How are you? I'm
good. I feel like I'm talkingto Barry White. Do you ever get
that? I bet you do.I bet you do. It is great
(01:51):
to have you here. Everybody isbasketball crazy right now, so I wanted
to add to that frenzy and helppeople learn about just kind of the I
don't want to call you grandfathers ofthe game, but the you know,
some of our pioneers of the game, which which you really are. Yeah,
exactly right. You can call thisgrandfathers long. It's been a couple
of hot minutes, hasn't it.It's been a lot of fun recently.
(02:12):
You're in the East High School Hallof Fame, the Chassil Hall of Fame,
the CEU Hall of Fame, andthe Colorado Sports Hall of Fame.
And you were a two time ABAAll Star. So you have definitely had
your fair share of basketball, notonly in this state but also throughout the
country. You've been on a fewteams, So we're going to kind of
go through all of that. ExactlyYeah, play coast the coast, but
Colorado has always been my home andthat's why you're still here, which is
(02:36):
fantastic. So let's go back tokind of your beginnings. You were born
in California. You come out toColorado when you're about eight years old.
What was the reason for moving here? How are we so lucky to get
you here? Well, I wasborn in a little place called Pittsburgh,
California, which is in the BayArea, and my father was stationed there
in the army during World War Two. When the war ended, a lot
(02:59):
of our family from the South movedto Denver, for whatever reasons, and
ultimately that's what brought us to Denver, and then you end up going to
East High School, went to EastHigh School, grade high school, went
to University of Colorado, and Iwas able to play here with the Neggats.
So it's kind of funny how yourpath came here so interestingly at eight
(03:19):
years old, and then so muchof your sports life was here as well.
Let's talk about when you were atDenver East. You're a three sport
athlete. You lettered in basketball,football, and track. When did basketball
kind of become your favorite? Oh? Did you have another one? And
baseball and baseball? Oh you didtwo sports at one time. Track was
a side track I should say.Okay, yeah, my sophomore year I
(03:42):
played baseball, and the track coachat the time got into my ego.
They always sneak in. Don't sayyou're a good four forty at that time
forty you got the body for that, So we got to my ego.
I went out for track and Ijust hated it. Did you, Oh
you talk about a waste of time, But yeah, I went out for
(04:04):
trek and I lasted that year.But the next year, my senior year,
I went back to baseball, whichI was much better at. What
position did you play in baseball?Third base? I had a pretty big
arms. You have to have thatat third base. Wow? Nice?
How about football? Would you playin football? Of all things? I
played in a single wing coach Panic, who's a Hall of Fame, National
(04:27):
Hall of Fame, High School Hallof Fame football coach. He always had
this single wing. So I hadone hundred and sixty five pounds. Was
a tight end if you can youwere a tight end. Oh my goodness.
I was tight end. And Ialso during that time period, you
played both offense and defense and waspretty successful. Yeah. Because when you
ended up going to see you,Eddie Crowter wanted you to play football,
(04:49):
didn't he? Yeah, Eddie,he started getting into into my ear.
But I chose wisely and did notplay football. I saw the guys up
the in this size and said,no, that's not for me. That's
funny. When you're at Denver Eastyou win two state titles. Yeah,
and then what happened with kind ofthe recruiting process? Did you have more
(05:09):
than just see you knocking on yourdoor? I had a few schools,
but you know, I was notheavily recruited for whatever reasons. Yeah,
we would won a championship in footballmy junior year. We were ranked number
one the next year my senior year, but we lost in the semifinals,
and basketball we lost as juniors.My senior year we won and we actually
(05:31):
I think we at that time saida state record. We scored one hundred
and three points, which I imagineeight minute quarters and no three point line.
There was a lot of you didn'thave a three point line then?
No? No, oh wow,way before the three point line. King,
Holy cow. Okay, so youwon one title in basketball, in
title Basco, one title in footballand football, but yet not super heavily
(05:54):
recruited. So why the decision forSEE you? Then? You know,
sox Walzeth was a coach at CEUat that time, and see was the
school. It was the big nameschool in the state. I was recruited
by DU who was Division one atthat time and had a very good program,
and CSU also, but CEU itwas the school for me, and
it was really never a big thoughtabout that. Did you have anything out
(06:17):
of state going on? Some small, small schools, yeah, but not
the D one opportunity that you hadhere, right, all right? So
you don't play football, you justplay basketball at CEU. What was that
experience like being in Boulder? Youknow, Boulder's only thirty miles from Denver,
but it's like going cross country,it still is. That was in
(06:38):
sixty five and it still is.I enjoyed my time up there in Boulder.
As you know, Boldre's not areal diverse community, but I have
lifelong friends that I've developed during thattime period and really enjoyed my time up
there. And I met my wife. Oh is that where you guys met?
(06:58):
Oh? Wonderful. She was astudent there as well. I was
a sophomore and she was a freshmancoming in and actually we met the very
first day of registration. She likesto tell the story that a lady this
year was with And interestingly enough,this lady was I had dated her in
high school. She was showing heraround and this was up on the hill
(07:24):
and we were going to Tallagi's,the old three two drinking. Yes,
the institution, the institution, andwe met crossing the street and the rest
is history. Fifty six years ofmarriage. Oh my gosh, Chuck,
that's a great story. I lovethat Okay. So then as you go
through your career with CEU, tellme about going to the next level because
(07:44):
you get drafted in nineteen sixty eightin the sixth round by the seventy six
ers. Yeah. And the seventysixers had just won the World Championship with
Wilt Chamberlain, as they said atthat time, one of the greatest NBA
teams ever. I think the onlyhad two selections. First round guy Shayler
Halliman was his name. He wentto Utah State. They brought both of
(08:07):
us out for the summer to playin the Baker League, which is the
ProAm league which a lot of theprofessional guys on the East Coast and the
amateurs would play. My first gameplaying I had to guard a guy by
the name of Pearl Monroe. I'veheard of him, which was a very
(08:28):
interesting experience, yeah for me.But played well that year. And another
interesting thing was my coach at thattime was a young John Cheney who became
a Hall of Fame coach from Temple. He was really very helpful to me.
I was supposed to make the team, there was a spot open,
played very well. There was rightups about me, They're going to make
(08:50):
the team. But during that summerthey made a big trade for Chamberlain.
Chamberlain went to the Lakers and withthat they got five players, one of
which was an All Star guard bythe name of Archie Clark. So he
took my position, and it wasinterested for me to go try out with
Baltimore. But my ego got tome and I said, I'm done with
(09:11):
this game. And I came home. You came home. I came home.
Oh my gosh, I did.Yeah. I went back to school.
I stayed out in a year andcontinue to play basketball au stuff and
not with CU. Right, wasyour eligibility done? Okay? Yeah,
And so just continued to play ball. Seventy sixers asked me to come back
(09:31):
and try out again a year later, and I did. They were I
think we're gonna make me an offer. But the ABA had been around for
three years at that point in time, and Pittsburgh asked me to come and
try out. I flew out.I was out there for the day we
tried out. They had some scrimmagesand they offered me a Noka contract the
(09:52):
very first day. I said,okay, interesting, did you finish school
at see you? I did youdid finish okay, And then you're playing
AAU ball Are you making money doingthat? No, we weren't making any
You're just playing ball, just playingball. So to get that contract with
Pittsburgh was a big deal. Itwas a big deal. My first contract
(10:13):
was for seventeen thousand, five hundreddollars. Oh, jack pot, Chuck,
Well that's nineteen seventy's that's pretty good. Well, it was more than
my friends weren't making. Absolutely.That was when houses cost literally twenty three
thousand dollars, you know, Imean the interest rate was twenty percent,
But that was good money back then. Tell me a little bit about when
(10:35):
the seventy six ers release you andyou say I'm done with this, but
you still keep playing. What's yourmindset on what you're going to do with
the rest of your life, becauseyour life was obviously very different if at
that time you said I'm done withbasketball, and you definitely weren't because you
played eight more seasons professionally. NumberOne, I didn't really think a whole
lot about professional basketball until my senioryear at SEU. For whatever reasons,
(11:03):
did you not think you could?Yes? And no, I had a
great senior season our team wasn't thebest, but I averaged eighteen points and
played against great players that went tothe NBA, Joejoe White, stud Lands
from Nebraska and others and had greatgames. And so that's when I thought
(11:24):
there was a chance for me toplay. As I said, when I
got cut from the seventy sixers,you know, my ego game, and
I was really upset because I playedvery well in that Baker League and the
articles they were written Bob, mymind was already on the team. I
had made the team, So youknow, I just got upset and came
home, but for the love ofthe game, because I loved playing basketball
(11:48):
and I love the camaraderie of beingaround the players, and coming back to
Boulder, I was able to bewith my friends, and so we just
continued to let's play. Because that'sone of the things with this podcast house
is trying to figure out when youhave that setback, how you move forward.
And I think it's difficult. Imean, you're probably what twenty two
twenty three at that point, soyour ego does get in the way a
(12:09):
lot, especially when you're younger.I think as we get older, we
go we have no filter and don'tcare as much, but when you're younger,
you do care, and then thatcompletely can change your whole path on
what you take in life exactly.So it's good you were open to going
back to basketball. Oh yeah,there was. There was no question one
way or another. I was goingto continue to play and to have fun.
(12:31):
And it was a good year offbecause my game became better and better
as years went on. Early on, I was a good athlete, and
you know, I'd done some thingsand with basketball, but I learned the
game being off that year. Fundamentals, yeah, fundamentals, and just being
able to have more confidence in myselfout there on the court playing against a
(12:54):
lot of different really good players.I mean it's interesting. There's you know,
you see the NBA and at thattime, I think there were twelve
NBA teams and so you know,your chance of making these teams is very
difficult, right, So I'd beable to play against a lot of great
players. That was extremely helpful.And that year, that that summer I
(13:15):
played with the Baker League, playingagainst the pros and best amateurs. And
then that training camp I played withthe World champions. Yeah, and you
kept up with them, right,Yeah, Okay, no question, So
no one you could be there,right, it took a gap year before
a gap year was cool, Jack, exactly right. So after your gap
year, yeah, you get onwith Pittsburgh and that's where And I'm always
(13:39):
fascinated too. And I have agreat conversation with Danissell about the ABA versus
the NBA. So when you goto the ABA, do you latch onto
that mentality of you're kind of alittle brother, but you still have some
amazing players and there's just that coolcamaraderie within the ABA, even though you
switched around to a few different teams. Teams, I mean, just some
(14:01):
unbelievable players that came through the ABA. Right. Well, that was the,
if you can say, a goodthing for me, playing with various
teams. I was able to playwith and against lots of great players,
lots of great players. I'll gothrough this list a little bit and ask
you about you go Pittsburgh, Youdo come to Denver to the Rockets seventy
(14:22):
two, You go to the SanDiego Conquistadors the Cues for a couple of
years. You then go to theColonels where you're on a team with Dan
Issel, with Dan and artists Gilmore. Yeah, pretty good team. I
didn't adapt to that team very well. Oh interesting, how come? Yeah,
Denver had let me go in anexpansion draft when San Diego came about
(14:43):
the San Diego Conquistadors, who wascoached by Casey Jones, Hall of Fame
player and coach himself, and theylet me go on the expansion draft.
I went to San Diego, hadto try out with them. Casey immediately
said, you know our guy Phistically, that was my best year because Casey
just let me run the team.He was really the guy that just set
(15:05):
me to in my mind a differentlevel. You know, when I talked
to a lot of guys about this, Chuck, coaches have their schemes,
they have their game plans, butthe ones that adapt to the strengths of
their players are the ones that endup being the most successful. You have
to figure out what you got rightand then make it all work right.
Well, there there are those coachesthat think that they're format how they want
(15:28):
to play. You know, theycan sit square into a round hole.
Yeah, it does. And that'sthat's what happened with me when I got
traded to Kentucky. Yeah, Idon't know if I the oh, you
can say it. Nobody's listening.Told Casey we had that year of Casey
Jones. Very next year, Caseyjumps through the NBA. The coach in
(15:52):
Washington, the owner brought in WiltChamberlain to be the coach of the team.
And Wilt was a different guy.Wait, so you played well,
kind of played with him with theseventy six ers, and that night you
didn't play with him, but youwere in that camp. And now he's
your coach. Right now, he'sour coach. And he had a different
style of playing. Casey was morecontrolled. Wilt wanted to run, run,
(16:15):
run, run, run. Thatdidn't fit at that time with my
personality and how I wanted to play. Didn't get along real well. And
so I had asked them in themiddle of the season that they could trade
me, and they did. Sothat's how that's how up in Kentucky right
in the middle of the year,and unfortunately I just never felt comfortable with
(16:37):
Kentucky and playing with that team.Great guys, great guys. That was
just me personally. And in anothermove, because San Diego, I just
loved playing there in San Diego andthought I was going to be there for
a while, but it was theABA and things happen. Everything you change
around a lot. Well, andfrom there so you you're only with the
(16:59):
Colonels for that last part of thatthat seventy four season. Then you go
to the Memphis Sounds. Memphis Sounds, Yeah, and I enjoyed playing there.
I had a very good year.Mike Storn was the president of that
team. His daughter Hannah Storm.We know Hannah Storm, Yeah, exactly.
Oh interesting, I didn't know thatconnection. Yeah, Mike was the
(17:19):
president of the team, and Ihave a picture taken of me and that
was framed and he wrote some reallynice things and said that I should be
All Pro, which I did notmake the All Star team that year.
I was pretty disappointed. But yeah, yeah, that Memphis was another team
that was a lot of fun.We had good guys on there. That
(17:41):
was a good one for you.Yeah. From there you go to you
have a stint with the Baltimore clause. Memphis folded and it went to somehow
got to Baltimore that became the Baltimoreclause. That did you ever play a
game with them or did they actuallyfold before they did anything? I think
they had maybe two or three exhibitiongames okay with the NBA, and then
(18:04):
they folded. Okay, because Danielwas a part of that as well.
Dan was a part of that.Yeah, he came. I can't remember
how I came, because when theydisbanded that team, somehow Larry Brown reached
out and brought me to the Nuggets. You and Dan both came to the
Nuggets from their right same time.So I ended up go from the Baltimore
(18:26):
clause to Indi nap with the Nuggetswho had David Thompson, Daniel, Bobby
Jones, Ralph Simpson who had beena teammate of mine with the Rockets,
oh yeah, and Byron Beck whohad been a teammate, Little Moni Tao
who came with David Claude Terry wason that team, and Marvin the human
(18:48):
eraser? Right, So wow?Was that a fun time? Did you
enjoy your time with the Nuggets?Had a great time? Two seasons right,
a season and a half. Okay, reasons for that, but no,
I had. I had a greattime. That that was the best
team that I'd ever played on.And to be able to start and contribute
and just felt every night you hadan opportunity to win the game, right,
(19:14):
was very unique, and that wasjust a lot of fun and a
great group I think to play with. Like it was just a really good
group of iconic players. Oh,no, question, three hall of famers.
I have a picture the program thatthey had the Nuggets hosted the All
Star Oh yeah, yeah. Itwas the Nuggets team against selected All Stars.
(19:36):
And on the program, there's ourteam and I'm looking at that.
There's three Hall of famers, Dan, Bobby, and David. There's Larry
Brown who's a Hall of Famer.That's impressive. Interesting guys, Yeah,
no kidding. And then so you'rea season and a half with the Nuggets
and you said, there's an interestingstory where you leave the and then you
(20:00):
go to the Buffalo Braves, whichwas the original Clippers. They moved to
San Diego and became the La Clippers. So you were with them when they
were the Buffalo Brave. That wasa very difficult time, okay for me
from a standpoint that that year,that Nuggets year, I had played very
well and we were a very successfulteam, including the playoffs, which a
(20:22):
lot of people don't remember it's beenso long ago. We had to go
through Kentucky to get to New Yorkto play for the championship, and we
fell behind two games to one toKentucky. We were playing that fourth game
in Kentucky. If we'd have lostthat game, I don't think there was
any way we're coming back from athree one. Okay, we're just that
(20:45):
good. It came down we weretied with him, came down to the
last shot on that game and drewa play up obviously for David. We
get the ball into David, butthe immediately double teams. I'm standing out
right inside the three point line.David throws it to me. I'd make
(21:07):
that shot, nothing but bottom.Everybody went crazy two two, and we
held Serve after that and then wonthat series. If we had not won
that game, I don't think we'dhave gone to play ultimately for that championship.
Wow. Carl Shear, former GM, comes out, hugs me,
check, you're gonna end your careerhere and you're gonna be with us,
(21:30):
and blah blah blah. It wasgoing. It was crazy. It was
really pretty cool. The next year, mid year, I'm in Buffalo,
New York. Wow. Yeah,So I was very disappointed, and because
we had gone into the NBA thatthe next year, and so my mindset
at that point in time was notthe best for playing basketball. Not only
(21:52):
that, this was nineteen seventy seven. You can google the Blizzard of seventy
seven in Buffalo. This thing lastedI can't remember how long, but the
temperatures would get down to minus fiftyseven with the wind chill factor. Oh
yeah, that's brutal. Right,So that's brutal. That was different.
Well, and it's difficult, especiallylike you talked about San Diego. You
(22:15):
thought that's where you were going tobe forever. You come back home and
you're in Denver and you think,Okay, now this is where I'm going
to be forever. And then yougo to Buffalo exactly. So you finish
out your career then with Buffalo.When did a decision to retire? My
second year with Buffalo, I didnot want to start. My knees had
been bothering me. I'm wearing theseelectric stem things all the time, getting
(22:40):
shot, and so I wanted toI wanted to continue, but I wanted
to come off the bench and playfifteen minutes, ten minutes, fifteen that'd
be great. I could play anothercouple of years with that tiny archer Ball
was with Buffalo at that time,Randy Smith, both all stars pros,
and I said, this is great. You know, third guard come off
(23:02):
the bench, blah blah blah.Well and preseason tiny tears his achilles tendon.
Oh done, yes, So thatman I had to start. And
that was sort of the beginning ofthe end because my knees at the end
of the year, which is theywere shot. And you played a lot,
Chuck, I played a lot.I read and again, sometimes I
(23:22):
get my stuff off of Wikipedia,which isn't always true that you hold the
single season record for the most gamesplayed in a single season of ninety fifty
nine when you're with San Diego andthat same year year with Kentucky you played
thirty three games. Ninety games ina season. You played well more than
that when you consider preseason games,right and then play posted. Yeah,
(23:44):
right, it was over a hundredgames. And dan Isla and I talked
about this because he one of thereasons they call him the horse is he
played all the time. And there'sa difference between playing hurt and playing injured.
I think guys from your era playedhurt a lot, sometimes played injured.
Probably shouldn't have been playing when youwere injured, but that was the
You just kept playing. Oh yeah, what was the mentality like always going
(24:07):
out there, always being available andalways playing ninety games plus in a season.
That's crazy. I don't know.I just obviously I enjoy playing.
I wanted to be on the court. I didn't want someone taking my place,
yeah where I should be, Andespecially with the league at that point
in time, you just never knewwhat was going to happen. Oh,
especially the uncertainty of the ABA.Yeah, that's exactly right. So we
(24:32):
played with turned ankles, slowing ankles. I remember being hitting the ribs and
playing with that and hard to breathe, neck issues. Nothing that would,
from an injury standpoint, to reallykeep you out, but maybe you shouldn't
be playing and give it some rest. So how often did you get a
court of zone shot or something thatyou look back and go, Guys in
(24:56):
today's game would just be they besitting on the bench, nobody's going to
prop them up out there. Butyou guys were propped up off And I
think there were there were a fewtimes, not not a lot, but
there were there were certainly a fewtimes. Another thing for playing all these
games, and this is it wasjust part of the game at that time,
(25:17):
the way the ABA was. Wedidn't have our own planes, we
didn't stand the best hotels, wedidn't eat the best food. We did
you fly commercial. We flew commercial. And at the beginning of my career
we were back in Coach, whichis all these big guys in Coach.
I can't even imagine something like thathappening. That's exactly right. So it
(25:38):
just was a different time here.But they also because we were always up
and down and up and down andplaying in one city one and then next
night here going to bed Lake,getting up early, some of the trainers
would give out speed. I nevertook any, but there were the guys
that did, and I understand why, oh, absolutely well. And so
(26:02):
for people that don't know, now, you know, guys get on the
private plane. And I only knowit from a Bronchos standpoint, but I'm
assuming it's the same thing Nuggets andAvalanche and whatnot. As soon as your
game is over, you are busedto the airport to the private hanger where
you get on the private plane,and then you get home and you're able
to get back to your house.Well, if you're flying commercial, you're
sitting there in an airport. Thatis mind boggling to me. Places that
(26:26):
we were plane Oh yeah, NorthCarolina and Virginia. Yeah, it spent
some time ago. But I wasinvited by the Nuggets to go on a
trip. I went to the gameand saw the game, went out to
the airport, got on this planethat had unbelievable food. We arrived in
(26:48):
La around at whatever, two o'clockin the morning something like that. We're
at the Four Seasons Hotel. Ohyeah, sleep, They go to practice,
I do whatever, go to thegame, and repeat, and I'm
home. I'm home the next I'mhome the next day. Oh yeah,
I didn't have to show anybody aticket. You didn't have to do anything
(27:10):
nothing. Yeah. When they saythey had to play a back to back
game, I'm like, are youkidding me? In luxury style? Oh
my goodness. Yeah yeah. Weplayed back to back games all the time.
Skip a day, play another day. I mean it's yeah, it
was just different. Do you lookback, Chuck and think how I mean,
(27:33):
everybody always looks back at their youthand goes, oh, it was
so much harder for me back thenthan it is these guys now. Or
do you also just appreciate that lifeevolves and the game evolves, and time
and money and everything evolves. Imean, the contracts are different. You
didn't have guaranteed contracts for millions ofdollars. You had a seventeen thousand dollars
contract your first contract, and youwere just keeping you know, in there
(27:55):
every day so you can make yourpaycheck. Right. No, I don't
begrudge the guys in this. Ithink it's great. I feel strongly that
we were a part of making thegame what it is today. Yeah.
Interestingly enough, there is a docuseriesit's going to come out about the ABA.
(28:17):
Oh are you in it? I'min it? Nice man, I
can't say a lot. Oh okay? Did you sign a non disclosure?
Yeah? I did? Okay,Oh I can't wait. I did.
Can you say what it's going tobe on or no? You're going to
be blown away. Everybody who seesit, they're going to be blown away.
There needs to be more of anappreciation, more knowledge. The people
(28:37):
that grew up in the seventies knowabout the ABA, but the people of
today's game, the younger generation,they don't know that league, and I
think it's so important that they understandwho came from there, right and then
came to the NBA, and justhow everything kind of evolved between the two
leagues and what was going on withthe back and forth and who's better.
And I mean, the ABA dida better job than any other startup league
(28:59):
has done in any of the othersports to give competition to the big brother,
the NBA. And when they consolidatedthe leagues the very first All Star
Game, out of twenty four players, twelve of them were ABA players.
Half of them, Yeah, they'vewanted those the players that the NBA guys
red arback hated the ABA, justhated the ABA because really, yeah,
(29:21):
because the ABA somehow was paying moremoney. They took the best NBA referees
because they were being paid the bestreferees from the NBA, And then they
started drafting some of the best players. And the ABA started the three point
line. If you don't have threepoint shooters today in the game, you
(29:42):
don't win games. Nope, Imean that three point maybe a little too
much in my point of view.But but the All Star weekend, the
All Star weekend, that big timestarted here in Denver last All Star weekend
and we had you know, entertainersthat were there. That was where it
started to be more of a show. Yeah, and it's it's progressed from
(30:04):
there. But that Denver one's iconic. In the old Nip mcmickle Arena,
I think it held like seventeen thousand, but they broke the fire coat and
put more people in there than wasallowed. I mean it was crazy.
Oh yeah, and so that thatwhole thing. The NBA took. The
one thing that I think they madea big mistake, it's not taking the
(30:26):
red, white and blue basketball,and the reason being is that that's just
more entertainment. People from around thearenas could watch the flight of the ball,
see the rotation of the basketball.I mean that was very helpful for
us in shooting because you have acertain rotation, you start getting off and
(30:47):
you see, well that's not howI normally shoot. Well I never thought
about that, Chuck, that's reallyinteresting. Yeah, the ABA basketball,
I thought they should have taken that, but you know, the ABA was
dominated by guards and small forwards.I didn't have that many. Taught you
the artist Gilmour is of the world. And now you sort of look at
the game, not so much thatwith the Nuggets with but you look at
(31:07):
the game, that game is realperimeter. They've taken it to a different
level. The Steph curries of theworld and just shooting from way out oh
yeah, Gordon and that kind ofthing. But that was the ABA game.
It was up and down, andit was the start of playing above
the rim. Julius Irving's you know, doctor Jay and these guys they played
(31:30):
above the rim. So there's alot that the NBA took from the ABA.
Absolutely, it would not be thesame game without the influences of the
ABA. Right. Oh, Ican't wait for that documentary to come out.
That's so cool. All right,So after you retire, Chuck,
what do you do? What haveyou done for the last um forty years?
(31:51):
You still look great. You've gotteninto the Colora Sports Hall of Fame
and so now we get to seeit the dinners there, which is fantastic.
No, I've been blessed. Thelast six seven years been just really
fulfilling for me. But when Iretired, I went into business with the
team doctor for the Nuggets, gotby the name of David Greenberg, and
we opened up Sports medicine clinics herein town. It was called SCORE for
(32:15):
Sports Conditioning and Orthopedic Rehabilitation. Iwould do the marketing for it, and
doctors would refer their patients to usthat had injuries, sports medicine, injuries,
surgeries and that kind of thing.So I would get out to talk
to them and trainers and this,that and the other. That did that
for about ten years, and thatwas fulfilling. We had a ton of
(32:38):
publicity at that time. It wasreally really interesting. We got the articles
and at that time the Rocky MountainNews and diver posts. We were on
KOA Radio. They do specials onus. We had our own sports medicine
show on Sundays. It was interesting. Then I went completely opposite. It's
(33:00):
too long a story to tell you. I got into it, but I
went into the environmental industry. You'veprobably heard of asbestos. Oh yeah,
Well I got into the asbestos abatementindustry, which is still big. I'm
in real estate and so I gotpeople moving into houses built before nineteen seventy
eight. And so I was like, you got a test for it,
and then you got to get adebated Yeah. And so I had a
(33:21):
partner grew the business and we becamea fairly large company. I was in
places I'd never thought I would everbe. I bet. We did a
lot of work over at the oldRocky Mountain Arsenal and some of those major
industrial facilities Rocky Flats, yeah,Larry Air Force Base, Yeah, Simmons,
(33:43):
Lockheed Martin, and we did workreasonally too. Super interesting. What
was your degree in at CEO.I thought I was going to be a
coach, and I got a physicaleducation degree and got a master's in physical
education. That's when I came backfrom Philadelphia. But this was learning on
the fly. I removed asbestos,we went to the classes, got the
(34:05):
certifications done on the hazmat suit,respirators, the whole shebang. Wow.
Learned the business from the ground floor. That was very successful. Even went
back to Washington. We were SmallBusiness of the Year for Region eight and
they brought us back to DC andtoured the Capitol and the whole Very interesting.
Yeah, that's cool. You area great story of reinvention. That's
(34:29):
one of the things I love tochat about with my guess is you're never
too old to try something different.And look at you, I mean,
just completely absolute different industries. Youget a little education on something and if
it's something you think, in thiscase, make a buck. Yeah,
a leap of faith. Absolutely,you just do it. Are you actually
retired? Retired? Now? I'mkind of retired. My son Scott has
(34:52):
a commercial and residential moving company,so I try to get him business wherever
I can. So I'll get outat a little marketing for him. I've
got a few good moves. Ohthat's great. What's the name of his
business. It's First Class Movers.Okay, good? And then any grandkids
or anything? Do you have havegrandkids and great grandkids? Oh? Wow,
(35:14):
yeah? A lot of babysitting,I bet there is. Yeah,
your drop off daycare. Sometimes ofcourse you get that telephone call and I
need some help. Babysitter canceled.Oh it's great. Oh that's fun,
Chuck, that's great. All right. I always finished my interviews with a
question about as you look back overyour career and you have ups and downs,
(35:38):
and there's times where you were donewith basketball when the seventy six ers,
you know, you weren't on theroster there, what would be your
advice to people when they have setbacksin life and trying to kind of get
that momentum to do the same thingas you did with basketball or maybe something
different, how you kind of havethat motivation to keep moving forward. For
me, it was it was alwayshaving faith in myself and they want to
(36:05):
and the discipline basketball. It wasa basketball I got mad with basketball,
but I'm going to do my thingand I got back in it, and
I did well with that my business, you know, and had to do
something. You know, I justI just believed in myself, always believed
in myself, and I was neverafraid to take that leap of faith.
(36:28):
A lot of things didn't go rightand got through that, but just one
step at a time, Yeah,one step at a time, getting up
every day and having the faith inyourself and being a spiritual person, feeling
like there's someone that's helping me outalong the way. Chuck, this has
been fantastic, great. I appreciateyour time. Yeah, thank you,
(36:52):
And I hope more people listen toyour story, that they look at that
documentary and understand how important the rootsof the NBA and the aba R to
our game today. I think peoplewill enjoy it. Thanks Chuck, Thank
you, Thank you. Chuck WilliamsI am really looking forward to that documentary
about the ABA. Hey, ifyou've made it this far, thank you.
If you like this episode or anyof the others, please share it
(37:14):
with somebody who might enjoy it orneed some words of wisdom. New episodes
of Cut, Traded, Fired,Retired come out every Tuesday on nearly every
podcast platform. Get social with thepodcast on Twitter and Instagram at CTFR podcast,
and also check out the website CTFRpodcast dot com. I'm your host,
Susie Wargin, and again thank youfor listening, and until next time,
(37:35):
please be careful, be safe,and be kind. Take care
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