Mike Harden

It's hard to believe a 2-time All-Big 10 safety who was a part of four Rose Bowls and two Super Bowls didn’t have football on his radar until high school. Mike Harden loved track growing up and his speed was impressive. So much so, when he was in 9th grade, his track coach (who was also an assistant football coach at the high school) had him run for the head football coach. It took two 40-yard dashes for the coach to proclaim Mike was his new starting free safety.

He learned the game quick and by the end of high school had multiple big-name schools knocking on his door. He chose Michigan where he turned heads on the football field and graduated with a Political Science and Communications degree. He wouldn’t need the degree for a while because the Broncos drafted him in 1980 and Mike found himself in a defensive backfield with Louis Wright, Billy Thompson and Steve Foley. For 9 seasons he taunted Broncos opponents at cornerback, safety and free safety racking up 33 interceptions, 4 touchdowns and 11 fumble recoveries. In 1989, he was cut and picked up by the Raiders where he had 5 picks and 3 fumble recoveries over 2 seasons.

Mike’s body told him it was time to be done after the 1990 season and he tried a variety of professions including the restaurant business and real estate. He also started to live a little too large and got into legal trouble for fraud. While serving time in a halfway house, Mike realized he needed to head in a different direction. He got his master’s degree and for 8 years counseled people dealing with addition at the Serenity at Stout Street Foundation. He’s completely retired now and serves on the board of the Denver Broncos Alumni Association.

Hosted by Susie Wargin

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
My addiction, as I often sharedmy story, was my lifestyle. It
wasn't a substance, as you wouldsay, what was that lifestyle? Just
having access to more money than Iever thought I would make growing up in
the city of Detroit, travel fastcars, women. I often say that
my lifestyle was my addiction. Welcometo Cut, Traded, Fired, Retired

(00:22):
a weekly podcast featuring conversations with professionalathletes and coaches who have experienced being cut,
traded, fired, and or they'reretired. I'm your host, Susie
Wargin. Growing up, Mike Hardendidn't have his mindset on football. He
loved track because he was fast,real fast. In fact, Mike was
so fast his track coach and juniorhigh who just so happened to be the

(00:44):
assistant football coach for the high school, got him in front of the head
football coach, and two forty dasheslater, that coach said Mike was going
to be the team's starting free safety. He never played a down of football.
Good thing, Mike's a quick learner. He had multiple college offers and
opted from Michigan, where he wentto four Rose Bowls. Then the Denver
Broncos drafted him in nineteen eighty,where he joined a defensive room to get

(01:06):
this included Louis Wright, Billy Thompson, Tom Jackson, Randy Gratishar, and
Steve Foley. That's a whole lotof badassary right there. Mike played nine
seasons in Denver, then got kindof traded and cut and landed with the
Raiders for another two years. Afterfootball, he tried his hand at a
number of professions like real estate,restaurants, and living a little too large

(01:26):
in life, which eventually caught upto him and he was quite humbled.
Mike turned his life around. Hegot his master's degree and helped counsel people
dealing with addictions, ladies and gentlemen. Mike Hardon, cut, traded,
fired, retired podcasts with Susie Wargin. Hello, Mike Hardon, how you
doing. It's so good to seeyou too. You're one of those hard

(01:49):
hitting m efforts, just as oneof them. When people say your name,
they're like, oh man. Heused to love watching that guy.
It was fun. You know,I had some great years here. He
definitely did, and some pretty incredibleteammates too, some of who have been
on the podcast. So we'll talkabout that and talk about your interesting little
kind of cut trade that happened withthe Broncos and the Raiders during your career.
But let's go back to the verybeginning. You were born in Memphis,

(02:12):
Tennessee, but went to high schoolin Detroit, Michigan. Where the
move happened somewhere and there between Tennesseeand Michigan. Well, it was kind
of an interesting situation. My fatherwas in law enforcement. I was born,
as you said, in Memphis,Tennessee, but I didn't really grow
up there. We moved to NewOrleans, Louisiana, and then from there
my dad took a job in NewOrleans and then here and my mother divorced,

(02:37):
and my mother and I moved toDetroit, Michigan. Okay, And
so that's where I started high school. And then when did football come into
play for you? You know,the funny thing about it, I was
a track guy. I really wasn'tin the football really. When I first
moved to Detroit, I was actuallyin junior high school, my final year
of junior high school, and theyhad a little junior high track program,

(02:58):
and the guy that was the headtrack coach at the junior high school I
went to was the assistant football coachat the high school, and that high
school was in the running for thecity championship that year, and so this
guy timed us in the forty yarddash and I was running track and everything,
and he says, hey, you'regonna be the starting free safety on
the varsity football team next year atthe high school. And I said,

(03:21):
well, I've never played football.I said, you know, I've only
played basketball, a little league,baseball, and ran track. He says,
oh, don't worry about it.With your speed, we'll figure it
out. You're we'll learn your realfast. Yeah. Yeah. And so
he took me over to the highschool for one of their practices and the
varsity coach tied me in the fortyyard dash and he couldn't believe it.

(03:42):
And then he tied me again andhe says, Okay, you're gonna be
my starting free safety. I've neverplayed football before. Oh my gosh,
Mike, do you remember what yourtime was? I ran four three nine,
that's what seventh grader you're in juniorhome or ninth grader, maybe ninth
grade? Okay, in tenth grade, Okay, so your high school was
ten eleven twelve. Yeah, Sowhat was your christening into football like then

(04:05):
as a tenth grader. You know, I to tell you tru if I
was scared of contact. I actuallystarted practicing with the varsity before I was
actually at the high school. Soit probably wasn't legal. No, probably
not. Yeah, there's somebody getin trouble these days if that happened.
Yeah, yeah. But I startedpracticing with them, and the guys were
really good to me and took meunder the wing, a couple of guys

(04:27):
that were veteran players, and theyjust you know, kind of mentored me
and showed me a little bit abouthow to play in the defensive backfield.
And then I was a wide receiver, but like I said, I really
hadn't ran any routes, didn't knowhow to run routes, but I just
had great speed. They tagged youas a free safety as opposed to a
wide receiver or maybe you're running backwith your speed. Why do you think

(04:47):
that was just because at that time, that was the need that they had.
They had a lot of guys comingback that were playing other positions and
so they needed a free safety.The guy who actually was going to be
the starting free safety was the cousinof an All American who had played the
position, and so that didn't goover too well. But like we always

(05:08):
used to say in sports, speedkills, yes it does. At the
time you're going backwards or just forwards, just forwards, I feel like all
you do is go backwards as adB. Yeah, yeah, well at
that time, you know, inhigh school, you don't really backpedal.
You just run with a guy.It's all it was, you know,
And they just told me, Okay, this is your guy. Wherever he
goes, you cover him, staywith him, and then it along the

(05:29):
way. I assume you kind oflearned plays and learned routes, but it
was mostly skill as opposed to knowledgeof the game that got you into it.
Yeah. Well, we had someother guys that were pretty good defenders,
pretty good defensive backs, who showedme how to backpedal, how to
break on the ball. I've alwaysbeen kind of known as a guy who
had an instinct for the ball.I was a good guy as far as

(05:50):
tracking the ball and intercepted it atthe highest point and things like that.
Like I said, basketball actually wasmy first love, and so I really
had good footwork, good quickness,being quickness as far as basketball because I
played basketball before and so that kindof helped me a lot in terms of
being a defender, mirroring wide receivers, knowing how to turn your hips,

(06:11):
sink your hips, things like that. That's amazing, Mike. So you
played three years of high school footballand then you go to Michigan. Did
you get recruited by other schools?Yeah? I was recruited by a lot
of the top ten schools, UC, L, a USC, you
know, Michigan State, on allof the big ten schools, Ohio State,
matter of fact, Ohio State.Uh Woody Page. I mean,

(06:36):
I'm like, oh, I can'tHayes, who was a head coach at
the Ohio State, when I toldhim that it narrowed down to my choices
of Ohio State and Michigan, hehung up on me. Really yeah,
oh man, Yeah, he hungup on me. And uh so I
knew I was going to Michigan,which there you played for schem Beckler.

(06:57):
Thank you? Yeah? What wasthat like? I know that you You've
talked a lot about your time atMichigan and just how much he meant to
you as a coach. He wasa great mentor he was a great person.
He came into my home every otherschool during those times when I was
being recruited, everybody else was talkingabout how the campus was going to be
this or that, or you knowin some ways, how I could get

(07:18):
a new car or do different thingsor whatever. And the thing that both
came in when he talked to mymother. He said, listen, one
thing I would guarantee you is thathe will have an opportunity to play on
national television and play for a nationalchampionship. But the one thing that I'll
make sure of is that he'll graduatewith a degree. And that was it.
My mom said, you're not goinganywhere else. Did you finish your

(07:40):
degree? Then? Absolutely, politicalscience and communication with my degree. Good
for you, Yeah, that wasthat was important. I long before I
ever thought about playing any kind ofsport. My mother always stressed education,
and she would said, you know, I don't care what kind of ball
you chase. You're going to graduate, you know, from high school,
you're going to go to college.And then while you're at the University of
Michigan, did you really feel likeyou started to come into what you're going

(08:03):
to be as a football player.There I came in and I had an
opportunity to play early. You know, again you're playing against some of the
best teams in the country. PlayedTexas A and then we played Texas,
We played Michigan State, obviously playedOhio State every year. You know.
It was one of those things wherewhen you get that kind of exposure to
a program like that, you growup. But you also the game is

(08:26):
not too big for you, andso you know, I had great coaches
around me that mentored me. Andthen playing the kind of defense that we
played at Michigan was very similar towhat I played when I came here to
Denver. So I was in chargeof calling our defense, checking our coverages
and things like that. So Ilearned a lot about the game, and
that I think people don't often understandis that there's a quarterback of the defense

(08:48):
and you don't always notice it becauseobviously on the offense you notice it a
lot more than you do defense.But there is one guy that's there that's
making that call and that's a hugeresponsibility, absolutely, and usually that guy
is the middle linebacker in the freesafety. Obviously, the middle linebacker he
sees everything that's going on in thebackfield checks to make sure that they're in
the right defense to stop the run, and as the free safety, you

(09:11):
want to make sure that you're inthe right coverage if they throw a pass,
and so we have to have adjustmentsto their adjustments. You have some
ups and downs. When you're atMichigan. You had an interception against Joe
Montana. You guys went on tobeat Notre Dame. That was a big
upright, absolutely, Yeah, thatactually, you know, that was my
first career interception. It was yeah, yeah against Joe Montana. I always

(09:33):
kid Joe whenever I see him.I said, I've never lost to him.
Did you just play Notre Dame onceand you're while he was there?
He was, oh, well hewas there, gotcha. So that was
his senior year. That was hissenior year and your first career interceptions.
That's a pretty good one to have. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah.
And then on the downside, youguys go to the Rose Bowl four
different times and you can't get there. Yeah. I I often tell people,

(09:56):
I said, you know, fourRose Bowls and then two Super Bowls.
It's like going to the problem withyour sister. You know, you
know, you get to go,but there's nothing happening. That's a great
way to put it. But youhave to learn then every time. I
mean, there was a lot ofheartache when you get to that point and
if your goal as BO came intoyour living room and told your mom,
we're you know, we're going toplay for national championships and we're going to
get to these places. And thenwhen you don't get there, what did

(10:20):
you learn during college then that maybeeven helped you later on when you were
in the pros. You developed thatburning desire to win. Yeah, you
know, losing is a part ofthe game, but I used to always
say that losing can become a habit, just like winning becomes a habit.
And you know, fortunately throughout mycareer I can always say that I was
always on winning teams. We youknow, had opportunities to play for championships

(10:43):
when I was in high school.Same thing in college, same thing in
the pros. And I'd like tothink that I had a part in that,
But I also had great teammates.Absolutely. So when you're in college
at Michigan, not only you're playingfree safety, but you played a lot
of special teams too. Didn't youplay special team kick off and punt return
return punts, return kicks, kickoffpunt coverage. Did you like that?

(11:05):
Yeah? I loved it actually,you know, because it gave me a
chance to show off my offensive skills. Yeah. I used to always tell
people, I say, you know, when I get the ball in my
hands, I'm not just trying tointercept it. I'm trying to score.
So you had ninety two return yardsI believe on your six picks when you're
at Michigan's that sound about right.Yes, twenty four punts with one hundred
and fifty six yards returned on thosepunts every time you got the ball,

(11:26):
you're on a mission. Yeah,it wasn't one or two yards each time.
Yeah, but there were some hardhits in there. Yeah. Well,
and you said you didn't like tohit when you first got into football
of this, so how'd you learnto kind of get over that and then
also become one yourself that became ahard hitting guy. Kind of a funny
story of my freshman year. Istarted out as a wide receiver at Michigan,

(11:50):
and then I got switched to defense. I was known as a guy
as I said, what's kind ofa ball hawk? I could intercept the
ball and things like that. Wehad All American free safety Dwife who played
for San Francisco forty nine ers whenwe were at Michigan. He was a
junior when I came in as afreshman, and after I got switched to
the defense, he came over tomy dorm room, he and another one

(12:11):
of our defensive players, and hesaid, listen, we have a reputation
at Michigan. Yeah, we interceptthe ball, but those bumba bees on
our helmet, we converge on thefootball. We expect you to be a
hitter. And so that was all. When you have a you know,
guy like the White Hicks, Ohyeah, all American that comes to your
room, you learn, you listen. Yeah, and obviously you did listen.

(12:33):
Got my attention. Yeah, absolutely. You were a two time All
Big Ten safety. And then innineteen eighty the Bronchos draft you in the
fifth round. That was Red Miller'slast year. Dan Reeves would start the
following year. What was it likecoming to the Bronchos And you came to
a team that was coming off theSuper Bowl in nineteen seventy seven and the

(12:54):
Orange crushed defense. This town wasinfatuated with it. Oh absolutely, And
you know, the Orange rush wasbig, huge, so to actually,
you know, be a part ofDenver's defense, I mean, I just
wanted to break into the lineup andget on the field. But what was
funny is when I had worked outfor Denver, Joe Cary, who was
a defensive coordinator, actually came towork me out. I thought he was

(13:16):
a scout. I didn't know hewas actually a defensive coordinator. But you
know, I showed up on time, I worked out with him and everything.
And so after our workout, hehad his son with him, and
he and his son and I werewalking out of the recreation building back to
the parking lot. And I hada little Corvette at the time, and
Joe had rented a Cadillac at theairport, I guess. And so when

(13:39):
we walk into our cars, hepoints to his cat likeac and he says,
hey, when you come to Denver, you'll be driving one of these.
And I said, oh, okay, all right, nice to meet
you. And so, you know, like I said, I thought he
was a scout and everything. AndI said, well, you know,
they probably not gonna draft me orwhatever, because I had been told if
the Raiders were going to draft me. So anyway, after the draft,
I came out start meeting everybody,and I met the defensive backfield coach who

(14:01):
was Richie McKay and he says,hey, he says, you know,
our defensive coordinate was really excited aboutyour workout. You've been high on our
draft board. He wanted to draftyou from the beginning, and he's really
excited to have you here and letme take you upstair at the meeting.
So I walked into his office andas Joe Cagan and I'm like, wow,
I felt about two inches tall thatthe defensive coordinator actually was the guy

(14:26):
who worked me out. Wow,that's what I also felt honored that you
know that he thought so highly.Absolutely, did you get that, Caddie?
No, I didn't kept a Corvette? Yeah, kept corvette? Yeah?
Who else did work you out?Did the Raiders work you out?
Raiders work me out? Cowboys workme out. They had to combine back
then, so we all went tothe combine and down and everything. And
those were just the ports that Iwas hearing through my agent was that the

(14:48):
Raiders were really high on me.It never works out with the one that
they say it's going to work out, which doesn't. Yeah. Yeah,
all right, So when you docome here, like I said, you
come here to some big names thatare already on the roster. Louis writes
here, BT's here, TJ's here, Steve Foley, Randy Gretish Shark.
I mean, did you walk intothat locker room and just go wow?

(15:09):
Yeah, I was in odd tobeyond Switcher. Yeah, and I'm lining
up across from Haven Moses, youknow, Rick up Church, Riley Oldhams,
you know all these guys. OltisArmstrong was in our backfield and so
I actually wasn't odd. And Ithink our defensive backfield coach, Richie McCabe,
I think he noticed it because hepulled me aside and he should listen.
These guys are the same as you. You know, they put their

(15:31):
pants on the same way as youdo. And he says you gotta toughen
up and stopped looking like a deerand head la your job. Yeah exactly,
Yeah, that's exactly right. Youhave a lot of years with the
Broncos. As we talked about,you played one hundred and twenty eight games.
You started in ninety eight of thoseas a safety and as a cornerback.
What did you prefer between the two? I felt like my natural position

(15:52):
was free safety, but again,I just wanted to get on the field.
We had a situation where our startingright corner retired Aaron Kylo if you're
and Joe Kyler came to me.Steve Foley had actually played right corner prior
to moving into free safe. Yea, he moved as well. And so
what happened was Joe Kia came tous in training camp, you know,
Steve and I, and he says, you know, you two guys,

(16:12):
one guy will rotate at corner.The next time you go in, you'll
be at free safety, and we'regonna do that throughout training camp until we
see how it comes out. Atthe end of training camp, and one
of you guys will start at rightcorner, the other one will started at
free safety. Joe Kiya walks away, Steve Foley turns to me and he
says, hey, I'm not goingback to corner. You're going to be

(16:33):
the starting right corner. So that'swhat happened. He had a little bit
of seniority on you, exactly.Yeah, seniority. He had served his
time. You know, we alwaysused to say that you're better free safety
if you spend time on the cornerbecause you appreciate it more. Absolutely you
do. Yeah, in the nineyears that you're with Denver, you have
thirty three interceptions, yet thirty eightin your career, so another five with

(16:56):
the Raiders. How did you havea knack, Mike for being able to
see the BA or can you evendescribe what it is? Well? I
think that early on, once Idid go into football in high school,
I ended up playing quarterback. Iplayed running back, I played wide receiver,
I played corner, played free safety. I never left the field.
I was kicking off, I waspunt return punting. All of that.
I think I developed a mindset justthinking of the way the quarterback position worked,

(17:22):
what they were thinking, how theywere trying to attack the defense.
I also had good ball skills justfrom playing baseball and basketball. I always
said I wasn't a great football player, but I was a better athlete,
good athlete with a lot up heregoing on that you were able to understand
the game. Some things that youknow, like I watched the game a
lot now and you see a lotof great defensive backs who have great ball

(17:44):
skills. There are certain things thatyou can't teach is just natural instinct,
and I think I had an instinctfor the football, and that's one of
the things that I often talked towith Joe Collier about. He allowed me
to have some freedom and range inour defense that yeah, I played corner
on first and second down, buton third down, you know, in
our pass coverage, I was atfree safety. So that allowed me to

(18:07):
roam the field and just go wherethe ball was. Joe was pretty special
coach, wasn't he. Absolutely.I have the utmost respect for him.
I mean, he's really near anddear to my heart. And to have
those I mean, you were veryfortunate at Michigan to have Bo than to
have Joe as your DC here,even though you go through a different head
coach from Red Miller your first yearand then it's Dan Reeves, because you
kept the same defensive coordinator. Thathad to have been a huge help with

(18:30):
that transition. Oh. Absolutely,you know, because we got to know
each other in terms of the playersand the coaching staff, but more importantly,
we were able to stay together asa group, particularly in the secondary.
One of the things I learned earlyon about playing in the secondary as
the defensive back because you have todevelop that chemistry and to trust. You
have to trust each other. Thatwas something that Richie McCabe, who was

(18:51):
our initial defensive backfield coach, healways stressed that with us, you know,
as the guys, you got tocommunicate, which you also have to
be able to trust each other.Can you tell when you watch games these
days what dbs don't have that?Oh? Absolutely, It's probably apparent immediately
and can see it right away.I mean you'll see a guy, a
cornerback, for example, is chasinga guy down field, and to us

(19:12):
as fans, we look at him, we say, oh, he got
beat by a wide receiver. Andthen you look and you see the safety
is out of position, and yousay, oh, you know that guy's
out of position. He was expectinghelp on that point. He didn't get
any help. Yeah, exactly.It's interesting, I'm sure as you are
so far removed now from the gameto look at how it is now.
Are the schemes that much different andthat much more complicated than when you play?

(19:33):
I mean, everybody's trying to oneup every year. Do you still
see it and kind of see throughwhat coaches are doing. Yeah, you
know, football is football. Yeah, at the end of the day,
it's blocking, tackling, catching passes, running, jumping, all of that.
That doesn't change. Sure, you'regonna have coaches that develop different schemes.
I think one of the things I'llmention the name Mike Shanahan. He

(19:53):
was great at creating matchups. Iused to love playing against coaches like at
because it's a mind game. It'sfiguring out what they're trying to do to
you, how they're going to attackto you. And that's one of the
things that I enjoyed about playing forJoe Kier is that he was great at
figuring out what they were doing tous and making adjustments at halftime. I

(20:15):
never felt like we were unprepared.At some point. It becomes a chess
match, absolutely, and that's fun. That could be very fun. That's
the fun part of the game.Yeah. Yeah, it's figuring out,
hey, we got you on thisplace. I want to talk about something
that happened in nineteen eighty eight,when at that time the Seahawks were in
the same division as the Broncos,and you had a big hit on Steve
Largent knocked him out right concussion andyou got fine five thousand bucks, which

(20:40):
was huge back then. Yeah.And then later on in the year he
got one on you. Yeah.You know, one of the things about
football, if you're staying the gamelong enough, they always say you got
to have a short memory, thelong memory. The short memory is you
got to let it go. Thelong memory is when things happen, you
know, you get your chance.Steve and I were actually good friends.

(21:00):
There was never anything personal behind it, but just talking about the chess match.
On that particular play, I knewthat from playing against Seattle so many
different times that anytime they crossed ourfifty yard line going in to score forty
yards going in, they'd like torun what we call the stick in post,
and if they showed certain formations,that was the play they were going

(21:22):
to run. Right before that playthey had got a first down crossed our
fifty yard line, I told JenniSmith, I said, hey, if
they line up an eye formation,play action pass, I'm gone. And
that was the play they ran,and unfortunately for him, that's how it
turned out. Right. But thenlater in the year, you get a
pick. Yeah, he hits youyour fumble and he recovers it. Yeah,

(21:45):
so he got his Well, thething about that play, it was
actually not a good play because wegot called for holding on the play,
but I didn't know it. SoI intercepted the ball and I'm returning it,
you know. Again, I'm tryingto score, absolutely, and so
as I'm running, I hear thewhistle blowing. So I do start to
slow down, but I'm actually stillrunning and so as he and so as
I'm turning, I make a cutand I opened my chest up and he

(22:08):
catched me in the chest. Itwas a good hit. It was legal
at that time. Legal probably notso much now. Yeah nowadays. Yeah,
he fined as well. Yeah,absolutely, all right. I want
to talk about the two Super Bowlsyou had when you were with the Broncos,
super Bowl twenty one and twenty two, both of them losses. You
were AFC champions both of those years. What did you take away from those

(22:29):
Super Bowl losses, especially with whatyou went through in college. I felt
like we weren't done. I alwaysremember sitting in the locker room in Cleveland
after we won AFC championship, andI remember talking to I talked to John
and I talked to Dennis Smith,who is you know, really good friend
of mine, and I remember saying, we're not done. You know,

(22:52):
I felt exhausted because that was atough game. Oh my gosh, playing
down in Cleveland. But I wassaying, I remember saying to you guys,
we're not done. I said,you know, I had that feeling
of what it feels like to bein a championship game. I just want
to win. I want to knowwhat that feels like to be on that
field at the end of the gameand win the game. And the other
thing is we end up playing theGiants. We had played them earlier in

(23:14):
the season, and I felt likethat we had a good chance of beating
them. But unfortunately, you know, we tried to run the ball on
probably arguably the best lineback and corpsin football at the time. Yeah,
yeah, and that just wasn't gonnahappen. No, And the games just
started. I mean, they fellapart so quickly and there was no coming
back from them. Yeah. Wehad a few costume mistakes early on that

(23:36):
ended up costing us, and youknow, they hit a couple of plays
and sometimes in a big game,all it takes is, you know,
one big play here our first downthere. That can be the difference in
the game. Absolutely. It's likeyou said earlier, where losing becomes a
habit. If something starts to rolldownhill, just even in a game,
Yeah, it feels like just everythinggoes wrong. Yeah, and both of
those games feel like everything just wentwrong. Yeah, the same thing.

(23:59):
Yeah. Right, So Mike,you end up playing through the eighty eight
season in Denver and then you havesome weird kind of cut traded thing going
to the Raiders that you say itneeds. It was too much to write
down in my pre interview question,so explain. Well, here's the funny
part about that. Doing that offseasonin eighty nine, they drafted Steve Atwater.

(24:19):
I said, you know, Ilook at the numbers where we are
in our career, myself, DennisSmith, our secondary, our defense at
the time, and I going Italked to Dan I was one of the
team captains at the time, andI go in and talked to Dan.
I said, hey, coach,I said, you know, I know
you drafted the safety. You justmoved me to safety the previous year.

(24:40):
You know, what's your thoughts,am I part of the team. Are
you moving on? What's the story. He says, Mike, he says,
you know, you're one of mybest players. You definitely have a
future here. We have no thoughtsabout doing anything with you. You're gonna
be here. So I walk out. Why do I feel this is going
in a different direction. I walkout of that meeting Susie, and I

(25:00):
called Dennis Smith on my cell phonefrom the car. I said, hey,
I just had a meeting with Dan. And I said, listen,
one of us is not gonna behere next year, and it's probably gonna
be me because I'm more outspoken andI'm probably not gonna be here. Jenni
says, well, no, hesays, I don't think it's gonna be
U says, because I've been hurtthe previous year. Yea. And he

(25:21):
says, I don't think it's gonnabe U. I said, it's probably
gonna be me, because you know, I've heard they wanted to trade me
and whatever whatever. And I said, now, I said, but you
are Dan's draft class. I said, so it's probably not gonna be us.
Probably, Yeah, were a rednot a Dan guy. Exactly,
yeah, exactly. And so thenwhat happens. So what happens is midway
through training camp and Dan calls mein again. He says, we're thinking

(25:41):
about trying to get the best fourguys on the field at the same time.
So what we'd like to do isthe movie back to corner, I
said, Coach, I said,you know, I'm in my eleventh year.
I can't run with those guys outthere on the corner like I used
to. I said, but youknow, if you feel like that's what
you know needs to happen, I'lldo it. In the same time frame,

(26:02):
my agent says, hey, youknow, I'm hearing that they're trying
to trade you. He says,but they're trying to trade you to Saint
Louis. I mean not saying Louis. At that time, Arizona Cardinals Gene
Starlings was the head coach. Heand Dan were together in Dallas. I
said, no, there's no wayI want to go to Arizona. I
said, if I'm gonna be tradedor even released, I want to stay
in the AFC because I know theAFC teams. I've played against these guys,

(26:26):
but I know that these guys,you know, And so I called
a buddy of mine up there,Lonnie Young who had played at Michigan State.
But he's a Detroit guy. He'sfrom Michigan. So I call him.
I says, hey, what's goingon in Arizona. I said,
I'm hearing that they may trade forme and whatever whatever. He says,
Listen, man, he says,we're trying to get out of here.
He says, you know we're notwinning, just not a winning. Coach

(26:47):
said yeah, he says, don'tcome up here. So I called my
agent back. I said, listen, if they try to trade me,
what our options. He says,well, you know what you can do.
He says, you know, youcan deny the trade. He said,
but I'm also hearing that the Raidershave tried to trade for your early
in the season. Shanahan, youknow, was head coaching with the Raiders,
and remember Stacy Turan, who wastheir starting strong safety, had got

(27:10):
killed in the car accident. Theyhad called Denver about trading for me right
after the draft. Anyway, becauseof that situation, they needed a veteran
safety to come in. And youknow, right away, my agent says,
you know, I have a goodrelationship with Al Davis. Maybe we
can get something done with the Raiders. So I called Marcus Allen and I

(27:30):
said, hey, I said,you know, I'm hearing that the Raiders
want to trade for me. Isaid, what do you think? He
says, Hey, he said,I don't get along with Al. He
says, but he says, butone thing I can tell you, if
he gives you his word on something, he's a man of his word.
So Al Davis called the Broncos theday before the final cut and asked them
to trade me again. And Dantold Al Davis, and this is coming

(27:53):
from Al Davis, the story thathe told me after I got to the
Raiders. He says that Dan toldhim that they didn't have enough time to
work out the details of the trade, so they were just going to release
me out right, thinking that Arizonawas going to try to claim me because
they had a worst record than Hesays, but if you deny it,

(28:14):
we will sign you. And sothat was what happened. I ended up
signing with the Raiders. So theBroncos released you. The Broncos released me.
I signed with the Raiders. Didthe Cardinals try to get you?
Okay? So you deny that andthen you signed with the Raiders. Signed
with the Raiders. I got thereafter the first game in the regular season,
and then that second week, I'mstanding watching practice, you know,

(28:36):
watching the defense, and Al Daviscomes out on the field and he calls
me over to the sign. Hesays, why are you standing, you
know, back behind the defense.I said, well, I'm just trying
to learn the plays and so onand so forth. He said, no,
he says, get in there.He says, you'll figure it out
as you go. He says,I brought you here to help get us
lined up in the right defense.So that's how I ended up starting.

(28:57):
You know, That's the reason heand Mike Shannahan got along so well.
Right. He was telling the playerswhat to do exactly. Yeah, Yeah,
he was calling the shots. Yeah. You quickly learned with the Raiders
who was in charge. Yeah.And the funny part about it is after
that season was over, the Raidersgave the Broncos a fifth round draft choice
to honor the trade, even thoughit didn't work out as a trade,

(29:18):
no kidding, because he want Alwanted to show, you know, let
Dan know that he was a manof his word. That's actually impressive,
and I bet you that's something mostpeople don't know yeah, yeah, actually,
yeah, so you stay with theRaiders for two years, yeah,
eighty nine and ninety. How differentis it? I mean, obviously it's
very different Al Davis and the Raiderway was it also hard to go to
the Raiders because of being with theBroncos in that rivalry being so strong,

(29:42):
especially back then. Yeah, atthat time, that was my favorite team
to play against. I mean Ihad some of my best games against the
Raiders. I thought it was goingto be awkward walking into the locker room
because we've had such rivalries and itwas such an intense love hate relationship with
the Raiders. And then first dayI walked in, I see Howie Long.

(30:03):
You know, Greg Towns and JerryRobinson, Marcus Allen. When I
walked into the locker room, They'relike, what took you so long?
We've been waiting for you to gethere. You know, there was rumor
that you were coming. What tookyou so long? Oh that's cool.
You were very accepted. Oh absolutely. You played with a great group of
people. They are to a greatgroup of athletes, a great group of
guys. You know, they welcomedme. They nicknamed me the General because

(30:23):
when I came in the same situationas here. The free safety strong safety
make all the checks in the secondary, makes all the checks on the defense.
So I had to kind of getup to speed pretty quickly. And
they called you the General. Yeah, they called my nickname the General.
I love it. So in nineteenninety, that's your final season with the
Raiders. You had five more picks, as I said, when you were

(30:45):
with them? What then made youcall it quit? I hurt my neck,
I was involved in the collision.I was having this numbness and all
this stuff going through my body.One of the doctors, who was the
head doctor, cleared me to play, but one of the assistant doctors on
the team pulled me aside and hesays, hey, He says, you
know, you've had a couple ofepisodes like this. Something's not right.

(31:07):
He says, if I were you, I would have this checked out more
thoroughly. And so what happened washe arranged for me to have an examination
by our neurologists to check my neckand my spine and everything. It was
one of those cloak and Daggers situations. He took me, took me to
see the side in a hospital inBeverly Hills. We went in through the

(31:27):
employee interests through the back way.It's like a movie star. Yeah,
it's like four o'clock in the morning. Oh wow, I see this doctor.
He does this examination and he says, you know that I've got what
they called spinal neuropathy or something likethat, a narrowing of the spine.

(31:48):
And so I end up missing oneof our divisional games getting ready for the
playoffs. Al Davis calls me andhe says, hey, He says,
you know, I heard about whathappened. I want to have you checked
out by a list who can giveyou a more thorough examination. So we're
getting ready to play Buffalo for theAFC Championship. I fly up to Philadelphia

(32:08):
to see this doctor. He hadexamined a few other guys in the league.
He examined me, and he wrotethis diagnosis to say that I was
at no more greater risk than anyother football player who had played for that
length of time, who had sustainedcontact. So as a football player,
that's all I need to hear was, Hey, somebody who's going to clear

(32:30):
me to play? So I endedup playing a final game, and then
again that offseason I had more extensivetests, and it showed that I could
be at risk for being paralyzed ifI didn't have surgery. Oh my gosh.
And so after eleven years, itwas time to call the quits.
Do you look back at that doctor'sdiagnosis and think, huh, I mean
you took a huge risk, Mikeby going back out and playing. Oh

(32:51):
absolutely, But you know a lotof times, you know, they're probably
a number of football players who,when you're in that situation, you want
to play time, You just wantto play. But knowing now, if
I would have known, then ofcourse I would not have played. Yeah.
Absolutely, But at that time,you're how old you've been in for
eleven years? You're thirty? Yeah, early three, yeah, something along

(33:13):
those lines. Yeah, And we'rein a situation where we have an opportunity
to go back to the super Bowl, and that's the ultimate goal. I
just I wanted to have an opportunityto win a championship before I retired.
And you were also in an erawhere there weren't the big, huge,
massive contracts and signing bonuses. Sothat is your paycheck is your paycheck,
and it's not like you've got awhole bunch, just sitting there, you

(33:34):
know, from a signing bonus fiveyears ago, ready to be there for
retirement. Yeah, free agency wasn'twhat it is today. Absolutely, Yeah.
So then what do you do afterretirement? That's thirty three years ago.
Now you've been retired. I justaged. While I was sitting in
a chair, I had dabbled inthe restaurant business a little bit. I

(33:55):
don't know if you remember, wehad a restaurant called Fat and Mike sports
can actually oh yeah, yeah.He and I had just opened a restaurant.
That was another one of those definingmoments. One of our coaches,
our assistant coaches at the time,when I was still with the Broncos,
he said, the quickest way toretirement is to develop any other business outside

(34:16):
of football. And he was right, he was right. Yeah, And
so I had Fat Lever and Ihad opened this restaurant, and so I
had that going was not located.It's right downtown on the corner of fifteenth
Lawrence. We were at the absolutefirst sports bar in downtown Denver, no
kidding the time, yeah right,yeah, yeah, So just to block

(34:38):
away from sixteenth Street Mall, whichat that time was bustling pretty well.
Oh. Absolutely, things were startingto kind of pick up downtown. Yeah,
we had great success with that.We were there for about four years.
Oh nice. Yeah, and thenfrom there and then from there,
I had got my real estate licensewhile I was playing football, so I
was always bargling and doing other things. So I got my real estate license
while I was playing for ball.But I never actively sold real estate.

(35:01):
And so after we sold the restaurant, I got into real estate for a
while, sold real estate, butthen I also kind of kept my eye
on the restaurant business. I gota golf course concession at a place called
Foothills Golf Course, and I hada restaurant out there called Planet Holding One
Planet Holding. Yeah, so Ihad that for about three years. So

(35:24):
just kept kind of dabbling in thatrestaurant business. And you just couldn't get
away from it. Huh No.Yeah, I wanted more stressed in my
life. But now you're out ofit and you just actually for real real
retired about a month ago, andyou were doing some really good work for
about the last eight years at Serenityat Stout Street Foundation. So talk about

(35:44):
what you were doing there, becausethat sounds like it was very rewarding and
interesting. Well, I started tohave some health issues, you know,
with my back surgeries, neck surgeries, things like that, and started to
hamper me a little bit. Andso I was sitting around in the house
watching soap operas and my dog waslooking at me like, hey, dudes,
you're gonna need to go somewhere anddo something. You don't know what

(36:05):
I do to this house when you'renot around. So I was thinking,
I said, well, I'm gonnafigure out what I want to do with
the next phase of my life.So I went back to school got my
master's degree in Marriage, Family andChild Therapy. Wow, and I did
my internship after Style Street Foundation,which is a substance abuse facility where we
cater to people that struggle with substanceabuse. And so I did my internship

(36:30):
at that program, and so Iwas thinking, I'm gonna do the touchy
feeling, how does this make youfeel? Family stuff? After I got
my degree. But as I gotmore and more involved in this, I
realized that addiction is very much apart of the family dynamics. And so
after I graduated, they asked meif I wanted to stay on as their
in house family therapist, and thatsaid, great, this would be a

(36:52):
great opportunity for me to kind ofhome my skills and cut my teeth and
figure out what I'm gonna be doingin this field. Eight years later,
yeah, I was in the programming. So basically what I would do is
help people who struggle with addiction toreintegrate with their family. Did it take
a while to kind of learn howto do that dynamics since that wasn't what

(37:13):
you were planning on doing. Notnecessarily, because in many ways it's common
sense, but it's also identifying whatare the family dynamics going on in the
family. In other words, addictiondoesn't just affect the person who struggles,
but it also affects the family.And there's also dynamics within the family that
are related to that addiction. Whetherit be you know, conflict resolution,

(37:36):
whether it be stress related to job, stress related to family issues. All
of those things play a part andwhy a person turns to drugs or alcohol.
It's not just one day person decidesHey, I'm gonna do drugs.
You know, there's something that triggersthem, and so it's trying to figure
out what those triggers are. Wow, when you were in the seventies and

(37:58):
eighties and there was lots of drugsand alcohol abuse, and there were teammates
I'm sure that you saw that hadthat was this something that you saw along
the way that also made you maybewant to be a part of this because
you just hear some very sad storiesabout some of the players from your era.
Sure, you know, I sawplayers who had struggled with addiction.
I've had close friendships that have beendestroyed by drugs and alcohol. But also

(38:21):
it's very personal to being my father. Even though he was in law enforcement,
My father struggled with alcohol. Hedied from CERROSI subdelivered. My uncle's
struggled with alcohol and drug addictions.So you know, I've seen it throughout
my family as well. I personallyhave never struggled with that type of addiction.
My addiction, as I often sharedmy story, was my lifestyle.

(38:43):
It wasn't a substance as you wouldsay. What was that lifestyle? Just
having access to more money than Iever thought I would make growing up in
the city of Detroit, travel,fast cars, women, every all of
that. I often say that mylifestyle was my addiction. How did you
get through that my story became publicas well, I got involved in some

(39:06):
bad relationships, made some bad choices, and as the results of that,
it brought me back to my roots. It made me humble again and made
me realize that the opportunities that I'vebeen given are just that, an opportunity
to be better and be a betterperson, and I took it for granted.
And so it made me realize thatthe success that I'd had, that

(39:27):
I had worked so hard to establish, wasn't something that was given to me,
and it wasn't something that, youknow, I should take for granted.
It's a privilege to have the opportunitiesthat I've had, but also just
being able to give back in theway that I had the opportunity to do.
So I wasn't taking that serious enoughand I was taking it for granted.
How did you come to that realization, Mike, Like, how long

(39:50):
did it take after, as yousaid, your story became public, when
you got in troubles. What gotyou on the right path, Because sometimes
it does take that humbling, thatgrounding to say, you know what zap
you down a couple of notches here. Well, you know, I've always
been very close to my mother,my mom. It was a single parent,
and she always taught me right fromwrong, So I knew right from

(40:12):
wrong. It wasn't that I didn'tknow. But I also had kids,
you know, and I said,you know, this is not fair to
them to drag them through this kindof stuff because of my bad choices,
because of me taking things for granted. But also had people that came out
of the woodworks. I mean JoeKayer for example, Mike Shanahan, people

(40:32):
in the general public, in thebusiness community who had known me as a
player, but also had known mein the public sector, who came to
my defense and said, hey,you're better than this. What's going on
with you? You know, whatis it that you need to get your
life together? And so it wasjust that kind of support that I've appreciated.

(40:52):
And if you find out who yourfriends are, don't you absolutely Yeah.
Dennis Smith's one of my great friends. You know, Steve Atwarter,
even though I mentored Steve when hecame into game, we're great friends.
That's easy to be friends with.Steve's the best. You say that when
they said what is it that youneed? What was it that you needed
to try and get yourself on theright path. It wasn't anything specific.

(41:15):
It was just the fact that toget back to my faith. You know,
I've always been a Christian person.I've always believed in my faith,
but also was the kind of personthat I was humble. I had gotten
away from that humility, and likeI said, I started to take things
for granted and I thought that Iwas old something, which I'm not old

(41:36):
anything. When you start to thinkthat you're bigger than everything else, the
big man upstairs does a great jobof bringing you down. You are absolutely
right. I often share my storyand I tell people I said, you
know, God spoke to me andsaid, hey, I'm going to get
your attention. I'm gonna sit youdown and you're gonna listen. And from
that point on, I've never lookedback. All right, So last question
for you, Mike ad that Iasked all of my guests, and you've

(41:57):
kind of said a lot of thisalong the way, But do you tell
people And you're a great spokesperson forhaving had the ups and downs and getting
your life back on track, butwhat do you kind of tell people when
they get in those situations themselves aswhere do you start and you have a
master's in this. Now where doyou start to try and figure out,
Okay, I'm back down to groundzero? How do I get back up?
Not up here where I shouldn't havebeen, but where I kind of

(42:21):
need to be. Well. Thefirst thing I tell people, I said,
listen, you know what, It'snot about how many times you get
knocked down. It's about keep gettingup, keep on fighting the fight.
Life is a marathon, it's nota sprint. Get up and finish the
race. What is your faith like, what's your relationship like with your family,
and then start to build from thatpoint on moving forward. It's not

(42:42):
about money, it's not about thesuccess. It's about who you are as
a person, what's your hearts saying? And the support system. The support
system is so hugely and I loveit that you said the people that reached
out to you, because I dothink it's very important that whether it's ourselves
going through a low moment, orif you know someone that's going through a
low moment and you know that's notthem, that's not what they're made of,

(43:06):
to reach out and be that supportfor somebody right makes the world a
difference. One of the things thatyou know, I started to do myself.
I started reaching out to a lotof the guys from the past that
I've played with, guys who playedbefore me, just to check in and
say, hey, how are youdoing so important? Actually listen, how
are you really doing? Not justhow are you doing, Hey, I

(43:27):
got this going on or whatever,how are you really doing? Because there
are a lot of people that arestruggling, but they feel like that they
don't want to burden you with theirstory, they don't want to ask for
help. And it takes people tomake themselves available to other people, to
be genuine in that connection, absolutelybeing available for them. And that leads
very well into another thing that you'repassionate about, and that's being on the

(43:50):
Broncos alumni board. You're on therewith Rich Carlos just had a big golf
tournament a few weeks ago, andso I think staying in touch with those
former teammates and a lot of themare they go through those struggles and you,
guys, the rules were different then, you hit harder than you didn't
have as good of equipment as thereis now, and so there's mental health
things going on, there's physical thingsgoing on, and you're just we're all

(44:12):
getting older and that sucks sometimes too, and so it's good just to check
in with people. Well, thedifficult thing for a lot of pro athletes
is making that transition back into justpublic life. Yeah, because sooner or
later, the crowds are going tostop cheering your name. You're not gonna
be as popular as famous as youwere at one time. And what does
that look like? What does lifelook like when those times are done,

(44:35):
when you were not on the footballor a baseball diamond or the basketball court.
What does life look like after thosetimes are gone. I'm glad that
you've gotten to where you are rightnow. Mike. It's impressive. Well,
thank you. I appreciated. Yeah, it's so good to see you.
Thank you again for coming in andsharing your story. You have a
lot of really good moments in yourlife that I think people can learn from
and take away. Well, youknow, Susie, I'll tell you tell

(45:00):
people all the time. With allthe struggles and the things I've been through,
I have truly been blessed in mylife. I have no complaints,
I have no regrets. I loveit. Thank you, Mike, thank
you, Thank you, Mike Hardon. You know, Mike mentioned how football
took a toll on him physically,and he's not exaggerating. He has to
use crutches to get around these days. But I'll tell you what, they
don't slow him or his attitude down. That was great. New episodes of

(45:22):
Cut, Traded, Fired, Retiredcome out every Tuesday. Please follow and
download this podcast wherever you listen topodcasts, and keep up on new releases
by following on Twitter and Instagram atCTFR podcast and also on the website CTFR
podcast dot com. I'm your host, Susie Wurgin, and I really appreciate
you taking the time out to listenand share this podcast. Do me a

(45:43):
favor. Until next time, Pleasebe careful, be safe, and be
kind. Take care