Mike Newell

His heritage in Colorado dates back five generations. So, it made sense when Mike Newell graduated from Littleton High School that he wanted to stay in Colorado despite football scholarships from many other schools.

He quickly became Colorado State’s starting center and along with being part of an offensive line that did not allow a sack for two straight seasons and a Holiday Bowl win over Missouri, Mike racked up a number of impressive accolades. He was eventually inducted into the CSU Athletics Hall of Fame.

Along with Mike’s great play, came some injuries, including a misdiagnosed back injury his senior season. Mike needed surgery and instead of going to the Senior Bowl and NFL combine, he went under the knife. Thankfully, the pain was gone after surgery, but a tough physical and mental road laid ahead as an undrafted free agent in the NFL.

Over the course of 5 seasons, Mike was with the Packers, NFL Europe, Rams and Texans. The grind was real, and yet he never played a down in a regular season NFL game. When his career was over, he was relieved.

Today, Mike still lives in Colorado, is an elementary school PE teacher and father to three very active teens. He continues to support the Rams and barely recognizes the guy who used to play center for CSU.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
My dad drops me off at theairport over there at DIA, and I've
got my MRIs to show, youknow, the teams. I'm trying to
salvage something right for my NFL career. I hadn't had the surgery yet.
Him in the train and I leanover to grab my MRIs that I leaned
against my leg and it was thatmuch and it set my back off,
and I went underneath the escalators whenyou get off the train. I went

(00:25):
under the escalators and I laid downfor four hours, and I could hear
them announcing my name over the intercomto arrive to the gate because I had
already checked in, and I justlaid there and waited for it to call
them down, and people coming upand asking me if I was okay.
Welcome to another episode of Cut,Traded, Fired, Retired. This podcast
is chalk full of conversations with professionalathletes and coaches, all of whom have

(00:46):
some tied of Colorado and they've allbeen cut, traded, fired, and
or they're retired. I'm your host, Susie Wargen. I talked to a
lot of former c issue rams onthis podcast because I've gotten to know so
many over the last few decades.This episode's guest not only has CSU ties,
he's also a fifth generation Colorado native. Pretty impressive. Mike Newall had

(01:07):
a stellar football career a Lyttleton HighSchool, and while he had a choice
of colleges at the next level,he was set on being closer to home
and traveled north to Fort Collins.Mike was a phenomenal center for the Rams
and was part of an offensive linethat didn't allow a sack for two straight
seasons, and he was just asgood in the classroom as four time academic
All Whack. After college, despitea major back injury, Mike caught on

(01:33):
with the NFL as an undrafted freeagent. His career took him from Green
Bay to NFL Europe, Saint Louis, and Houston, and unfortunately, in
all those years, he didn't geta live snap and a regular season game.
Welcome to the grind. Right inretirement, Mike's a pe teacher at
an elementary school and the father ofthree very active teenagers. He's enjoying life

(01:55):
and these days barely recognizes the biglineman that used to play center. Ladies
and ji, gentlemen, My fellowRam Mike Nole cut Traded Fired, We're
Retired Podcast with Susie Wargen Mike Nole. How you doing. I'm well good.
Thank you so much for having mehere. Absolutely, yeah, Well
it's good to have you here.It's great to have a Ram in here.

(02:15):
We've seen each other at many offootball games and throughout the years,
so it's fun to always see usstill supporting the Rams and then have you
come in and tell your story.Yeah, it's great to connect with you
today and absolutely go Rams. We'vealready be talking about it, Rams,
I know. Yeah, we're commiseratingabout a couple of things, celebrating some
commiserating others. So you were afifth generation Colorado native, which is really

(02:38):
impressive. Yeah. You know,my mom's family they homesteaded out in the
Eastern Plains, so there is somepride there. But I also understand like
it's a you know, there's peoplewho've been here a lot longer than me.
Right, I don't hear about manysixth generation. I think fifth.
I'm a fourth, and that's Ifeel like that's always impressive that I see
a fifth and I'm like wow,right, and then you know my kids
there are the sixth right, that'strue. They would be six. That's

(02:59):
awesome. So you grow up inLittleton, go to Littleton High School,
three sport athlete, football, basketball, and track. What got you into
sports? You're one of four siblings, so was there some sibling sports in
there as well? Or do youkind of make your own path? Maybe
more my own path. My olderbrother wasn't two into sports, but I
was always into it from a youngage. I liked the competitiveness. I

(03:21):
mean I would have competed in anything. I would cheat like crazy. You
know. My family hated playing games, card games with me because I was
always the cheater. It was niceto finally, like find an outlet in
sports where I could like really competeat a high level and accept the consequences
of whatever the game might be,even though it's super frustrating sometimes and super

(03:43):
exhilarating others. But yeah, itwas I think it was my own path.
I loved basketball growing up. Iplayed soccer until ninth grade. My
dad didn't let me play football tillhigh school. Really, so yeah,
okay, interesting and really it isbrilliant. He said I won't get good
coaching, and he was afraid Iget hurt. And I've had some conversation
with people before too, like aroundshelf life in football, and you've probably
heard this, like, you've gotthe shelf life in football, and for

(04:04):
some people might be one year.And if you start playing your tenth grade
year in high school and your shelflife is one year, you're done.
You're not even a junior. Andthen you got guys like Tom Brady that
played, you know, probably playedlike thirty five seasons in his life,
right, Some people just have differentgenetics. Yeah, and so I got
I think sixteen seasons of football startedin ninth grade. So I think that
was my shelf life. It wasgood. My dad made me. Wait

(04:25):
if I started in third grade,who knows, maybe I make it to
my senior in high school. I'mburnt time. And I am always surprised
by the guests that come in thatsay it didn't start playing football till high
school because my parents wouldn't let me, or they just didn't have the desire
or the availability of the sport,and so it didn't start till high school,
and then they are able to goon. So I think there's a
lot of validity to that because it'ssuch a violent sport that your body can't

(04:46):
take it. And we're going totalk more about your story with that and
how you know your football career endedwith injuries and things like that. But
you can't go on forever in it, right, You just can't. Yeah,
And I think there's you know,I don't think I would have been
the football player was if I didn'tplay soccer all those years. Oh really,
but I didn't play basketball all thoseyears. I think there's a lot
of cops over in sports. There'snot enough credit going in that direction.

(05:08):
Yeah, and there's a lot ofspecialization now, you know. I would
urge kids to try everything and doas much as they can. I hear
that a lot too. Yeah.So basketball was it your favorite? I
love basketball still? Oh my gosh, do you Yeah? Well you're very
tall, so you you seem likeyou'd be a natural basketball player. I
was. I was a total gruntlike I was just like I'd hang out
in the paint and push people aroundand get rebounds. My junior year,

(05:29):
I decided I'm not going to takea shot outside of three feet this year
because layups. I could make layupsand I wasn't going to settle for a
jump shot. And it was great. I scored a lot of points and
I enjoyed myself in there. Andyou know, you get that physicality of
football, you know, in thebasketball court last season. So I love
basketball. My sons and I.I think we dropped my daughter nuts.

(05:49):
It's all we talk about is statsand you know, Jokic and c as
you and all the things. Ohfunny, what did you do in track?
I just threw my senior year,I threw shot put in discasse.
It was just my senior year.I made it to state. I think
I got eighth place at state.You know, that's like one of those
regrets. I wish I would havedone it in all four years. Yeah,
so did you Were you on theoffensive line or were you alignment offense
defense throughout high school? Yeah.It's always a heavy, kind of chubby

(06:12):
kind of guy. Carried a lotof weight. And yeah, like right
from the start, I was offensiveline and defensive line in high school.
You know there's games you don't evenget out of the game ever, Right,
you played both ways, You're onspecial teams, you're doing it all.
That's a big guy that could bekind of tough sometimes. It was.
Yeah, I mean it was exhausting. I remember, you know,
we were playing Wasasson in a criticalgame and gosh, I was just gassed.

(06:34):
I had hardly anything left in thetank at the end, and you
just pushed through it. And Ithink that's one of the things in my
football career that maybe I would doanything I could help my team win,
and pushing yourself through those points ofexhaustion as part of that, right,
yep. You know. The otherthings that I would do is I would
always give good effort year round.And I had a super short memory.

(06:57):
Oh you have to I had sucha short memory. If I had a
great play, what's next play?If I pancake somebody, if I had
a great block getting downfield to gettingsome extra it was like, what's the
next play? And then if Ihad a bad play, I'd self correct
it self, assess, I'd turnit over and probably under two seconds and
I move on to the next play. So I think that really helped.
That's a huge talent to have,a good mental talent to have, because

(07:20):
that's tough. It is, it'sreally tough. Yeah, it kept me
from playing the mental games that youcan play in sports so easily. Yeah,
that I see a lot of OhI'm sure. Yeah, you can
tell when a guy's in his headand you're like, oh wow, that
should have been the easiest play inthe world, and it's all up in
here that it can't happen. Itis so when it's time to go to
college, you go to see ashoe. But were there other options that

(07:41):
you were considering? I did.I tripped up to Washington State first.
It was an eye opener to whatthe college campus is like in what way,
Oh my gosh, like parties,fights. It was like such a
wild weekend. It was incredible.They did the true recruiting trip, didn't
I got the full Like I knewwhat Pullman was like, but it was

(08:03):
so far away, Oh my gosh. Like I flew to Seattle. I
met the offensive line coach in Seattle. We took like a prop job airplane
to Pullman, and I was like, Cookrief, I'm not gonna have to
do this every time. And Iflew back out of Spokane. But the
weekend, you know, I metRyan Leaf that weekend. We were roommates
in the hotel that weekend. Nokidding in Pullman. Oh funny. So

(08:24):
we spent the weekend together and Hewas supposed to trip to Colorrado State the
next weekend, but he ended upcommitting to Washington State that day. No
kidding. He was supposed to goto CSU. Yeah, he was going
to trip to CSU. You know, he's a Montana guy and his dad,
I think had connections with Sonny.Oh that makes sense. So he
was going to trip to the CSUnext How crazy would that have been at
Hatty come to CSU right with youat center, Yeah, that would have

(08:46):
been wild. Yeah, anyplace?So ell she went besides Washington State,
No, I went. I trippedto Washington State at trip to Calorio State,
and I was pretty firm at thatpoint that I wanted to go to
CSU. It was close to home, and Larry Kerr there you go,
said he's got He's such a greatguy. I'm always grateful to him for
bringing me up there. I couldn'thave made a better decision for my football
career. Like, one of thefactors was I wanted to play really early.

(09:07):
I wanted to play a lot,and so like I think Nebraska was
recruiting me, Kansas State had offeredme. I was supposed to go on
a visit there and canceled it.I just saw myself playing early at CSU,
and it worked out for the best. I have no regrets about going
there, and shoot, that culturethat we had up there unbelievable when I
was looking back through your years.You red shirted your freshman year, and

(09:30):
then in ninety five you start atguard, you get moved to center,
and then you're center for the restof your time at CSU, and you
play what nearly every single game?Yeah? Yeah, I played a lot
of games. I miss that CUgame? Was it my junior year?
They got injured. I missed thatone that was rough and we lost maybe
a touchdown in Boulder? Yeah?Tight, But yeah, I got a
lot of playing time. I lovedit. I loved my teammates. It

(09:52):
was a heck of a run atCSU. When you got moved from guard
to center, what was your thoughtthere? Well, I started out a
defensive line at CSA. You youdid did not know that? Okay,
I started at d line, butit was like, maybe two weeks in,
I'm my coach, I want togo play some offensive line. And
I think part of it was Ithink I always felt like a comfortable fit
at offensive line because I could kindof mesh in with four other guys.

(10:15):
It's almost like the team within ateam. It's a different unit. Yes,
And you know, I think froma young age, for varying reasons,
like I was, I was alwayshiding myself, and I think that
was a good spot to hide myselfin sports like where you can kind of
be under the radar and still bea part of it. I think that's
one of the reasons I was roundto the offensive line and what a great
group of guys always like everywhere Iplayed. But you can't hide at center.

(10:37):
You're the first guy that touches theball every single time. Yeah,
just get the ball to the quarterbackand everybody forgets about you, right,
Yeah, that's the whole Hopefully nobodyever knows your name. I remember Tom
Nalan. It's like, as longas nobody knows my name, I'm so
fine with that. Don't ever callit. Yeah. Yeah. Dave Maggazine,
he was our offensive line coach andhe ended up coaching the NFL for
a long time after. But Iremember the first day I walked out after

(10:58):
they moved me on offensive line.He makes this like magic wand a gesture
with his hand and he goes,poof, you're a center. That's what
he said to me. So evenlike I started playing center. Even my
true freshman year, I was center, and then my second year I played
guard, mostly rotated in a guardand played some centers. Oh okay,
all right, so I was reallya center from the start at CESU.
Okay, I had that backwards alittle bit. No, your bio needs

(11:18):
to get worked on all over theplace, Mike. I need to send
it to some people and say,listen, we need some corrections here and
some additions. How would you knowthat I know? But that's also the
I mean, that's kind of alsothe beauty of being the offensive line.
You're kind of that mystery person.You guys do so much work. You
never get the credit you deserve.You get the heckling that you don't always
deserve because when things don't go rightand you know, you get called for

(11:41):
holding or whatever it happens to be, that's the only time people say anything
nice about the offensive line. Ifeel like, unless there's a great running
game, then you get kudos.Then sometimes yeah, there's no stats for
an offensive lineman. No, no, there's none, And I think the
coaching staff they keep their own internalstats about the year. Yeah, you
know how many pancake blocks you mightget, or how many holding calls or
whatever penalties you might get. Butyeah, for the most part, you

(12:03):
can really hide in there, youcan. That was a good place for
that. That's a good place.Obviously, football wasn't your only thing.
You exceled out a CSU. Alsoacademically, you were a four time academic
All Whack. This was back whenCSU was in the Whack. So not
to age anybody, but I'm old, I know, so am I All
Whack first team in ninety eight,three time Whack champion. But the academic
part of it, I'm always curiousabout, because how did you balance being

(12:26):
such a good athlete as a starter, as a key part of that offense,
and then also academically. Academics werealways really important growing up. My
parents sad would help along the way, and my mom would always prove for
you all my papers. My dadwould always be willing to quiz me,
you know, take my notes andquiz off of it. So we spend
a lot of time together. Ithink I spent a lot of time bonding
with my folks on that, whichwas really nice. And then I just

(12:46):
continued it and I almost hot withit as like a game, like I've
got this game figured out. Ishow up to class, I do the
work, and that's going to meanthat I'm going to do well on any
assessments or any tests that I mighthave, get the projects done, work
with the people, and that wassomething that just kind of came second nature
to me. And so yeah,I mean it was always really important to
me. I'm grateful for my education. Ended up with a master's degree from

(13:09):
UNC as well. I want tobe a lifelong learner, I really do.
I don't ever want to stop.I want my life view to not
zero in to one point. Iwant to just continue to spread and wide
open up. That's great. Yourbachelor's degree is in landscape horticulture. Did
I see that right? What wasthe thought there? Because that is not
what you're doing now? No,I you know, it was hard,

(13:31):
Like I was trying to figure outstuff that would work with football. So
some things like if you want tobe in like a forced biology major,
you got to go up to PingreyPark for eight weeks in the summer.
I couldn't do eight weeks in thesummer. I'm training for football. That's
the most important thing in my life. And so I kind of narrowed it
down and ended up with this horticulturedegree, which I love plants and I
still do. I thought it couldbe something that I might be able to

(13:52):
do for the rest of my life. Really, what I was saying was
like a sports turf manager or golfcourse management. Oh okay, that makes
sense. But when I finished myfootball career, I was like, gosh,
I do not even want to doany manual labor because this body is
store up right now. Yeah,So I just I made the decision to
go another direction, which teaching wasalways in my path. I thought as
well. I mean from a youngage, I thought I could be a

(14:15):
teacher. That's awesome. So inninety seven and ninety eight you had an
offensive line that didn't give up anysex. How much pride do you take
in that as an offensive lineman?That's huge? And who was your quarterback
those two years? So it wasMoses Moreno, and then it was Ryan
Eslinger, Yes, all right,and yeah we had some good offensive line.
No sex. Actually, it's likeme and him, we played right

(14:37):
next to each other for five yearsand we didn't really have to make a
call anymore. And we could justgo shoulder to shoulder and hip to hip
and we just small people, right. It was so fun. It was
so fun playing next to that guy, and I hope I returned the favor.
Sometimes sometimes you know, you'd beblocking the guy, you'd be locked
out on some pass protection, andall of a sudden they just disappear.

(14:58):
It's because Anthony came in and justor hold them. You know, there's
a gone, oh, they're ontheir ground. All right, Now I'm
going to lay on the guy andyou know, kind of try to humiliate
him a little more. It wasso fun. We had two one thousand
yard rushers two years in a row. I think I took his maybe more
pride in that than yeah. Ohyeah, you know, we really believed
in it. Absolutely we bought inand what the coaches were selling and the

(15:20):
techniques. We had some amazing coaches. I mean, John Ben was just
phenomenal. That was fun here Whenyou guys got the win against Missouri and
the Holiday Bowl in ninety seven andwhat was that like? Oh, it
was amazing. I mean I thinkit was what we had been. That
kind of national respect is what we'vebeen looking for for quite a while,
and so to get that win inthe bowl game was pretty That was pretty
special, and it was an intensegame, and we had some big plays

(15:41):
that we made that wanted for us. It was it was fun, it
was a blast. That's awesome.Once that starts happening, you kind of
and I think his fans were like, Oh, we get to go to
a bowl game all the time.Everything's great. And then there's been a
lot of stretches where there's been guysthat throughout their whole college career they haven't
been able to experience that, andthat's hard to see. You guys had,
you know, years that were justvery fruitful, absolutely, and even

(16:03):
the years we didn't make a bowlgame, we were still in today's day
and age, we'd be going tobowl games. We have a seven and
five record, We had an eightand four record, we don't make a
bowl game, so now you'd begoing to one every single game every year
we would have qualified for the one. And we had good teams those years
too. I mean, we werestill absolutely super competitive in most of the
games. We went down to Nebraskaand got our asses handed to us once,
but I don't talk about that one, all right. Let's move on

(16:26):
alright. All right, So whenyou're done with CSU, you go to
the next step. Would you bethe NFL? Did you do the Senior
Bowl or anything like that? Oryou got injured your senior year? So
were you not able to do anyof that? I just had my timing.
It couldn't have been worse. Hadthis back injury I didn't know as
a back injury. We were treatingit as like a hamstring injury. But
it was the psyatic nerve that wasgetting pinched in my back, and so

(16:48):
I didn't do the things that youknow, if I would have known it
was my back. I mean,I'm still like in the weight room with
Tony Federico, like power cleaning andsquatting through the season, and I've got
it bad back because there was nopain in the back. It was all
in the hamstring. Interesting, sothat's just where it was emanating too.
It was that psiatic nerve, andso I got invited to the Senior Bowl,
couldn't play in it because right atthe end of the season when it

(17:11):
really flared up, I spent someweeks where I was in bed really like
twenty three hours a day. ProbablyI just got I felt it's probably that,
you know, the time in mylife where I was probably depressed,
Like looking back, I didn't knowit going through it. Yeah, you're
too young to Yeah, gosh.It was a miserable few months until I
finally got that surgery and I wassupposed to go to the combine. And

(17:33):
I tried to go to the combine. I thought I had it calmed down
enough. And my dad drops meoff at the airport over there at DIA,
and I've got my MRIs to show, you know, the teams.
I'm trying to salvage something right formy NFL career. I hadn't had the
surgery yet. Him in the trainand I lean over to grab my MRIs
that I had set leaned against myleg, and it was that much and

(17:55):
it set my back off and Iwent underneath the escalators when you get off
the train. I went under theescalators and I laid down for four hours,
and I could hear them announcing myname over the intercom to arrive to
the gate because I had already checkedin. Oh, And I just laid
there and waited for it to callthem down and people coming up and asking
me if I was okay. Andthen when it finally call him down,

(18:17):
I was, got back on thetrain, went to the pay phone,
called my dad and asked him tocome pick me up. I called my
agent, said, couldn't do it, couldn't make it. Oh my god.
So then I went out and gotthe surgery in California. My parents
drove me out there. God.I woke up from surgery and the only
thing I cared about was is itthe pain gone? And it was?
And I was so I being grateful. Oh I bet, because I don't.
I mean, back band is justit's terrible, and I don't wish

(18:40):
on anybody. It's debilitating. Itis, it is, and unfortunately I
was never the same player again.I had motor loss in my calf,
so my calf doesn't function still tothe state really at all. Really,
I can't do a calf raise onmy right calf, and so I think
it's one of the things, like, you know, I looked back at
my career, and you know,I'm pretty proud of where I got with

(19:02):
a calf that didn't work. Youknow, I don't know how, I
don't know how I was able todo it, to be honest with you,
because as alignment an offensive lineman,you're always down. You have to
I mean, every part of yourbody has to work. If you don't
have a calf muscle, yeah,I mean, it's just a big slab
of meat down there. But mygosh, Mike, it worked out for

(19:22):
that reason for some I mean,I wish I would have earned a little
bit more money. I mean,I got a great start in life anyway
with my career, but I thinkthere's a silver lining in there that maybe
my head didn't take as many hitsand I'm in the condition I am today,
maybe because I didn't have to gothrough the grind as a starter in
the NFL, which I have fullconfidence. I think if I didn't have
that back injury, I think Iwould have had a hell of a career

(19:45):
in the NFL. Oh, I'msure you would have. You had a
hell of a career as a collegeplayer, and it should have transferred.
But the injury, I mean,that's just one of those things. And
I talked to so many players aboutthat that A it's a very dark place
to be and B, depending onwhat it is, it's very hard hard
thing to come back from and alot of times you aren't the same player,
and it sucks, you know,it really does. Yeah, so

(20:07):
you do end up getting on withGreen Bay as a free agent. Yeah,
how did you convince them that youwere then better? It was interesting,
like draft, like I still hadthese like images of myself getting drafted.
I thought I would be drafted somewherethird to fifth round, right without
the back injury. I'd still hadthese like on draft day like I'm still
like hoping I'm going to get drafted, waiting for your phone call. Yeah,

(20:29):
no phone call, and then youknow, my agent's calling right when
the draft dads, and there's likethere's a lot of teams trying to sign
me, but they can lose alot of face. Hey why you draft
this guy with a bat back?And so I ended up with the signing
bonus that was larger than what theseventh rounders got because I had multiple teams
trying to sign me and Green Baywas one of them, and we kind
of thought that would be the bestplace for me. And what was that,
Like, you're on the practice squad, not even a practice squad.

(20:52):
They took their time with me becausethey actually put me on IR for the
year. Oh wow, right away, right off the bat. Yeah,
they were so patient with me.That's really grateful for Yeah, that's doesn't
seem very typical. It doesn't.But I was not in any kind of
condition. I missed a few monthsof lifting weights. The calf wasn't you
know, responding really and they wereso patient with me. They had faith

(21:15):
in what you had done in college. So I really I spent the year
on IR. I got really strongin that year. Those are the people
I connected with both, I thinkin the NFL as far as from coaching
staffs go was strength and conditioning coaches. Man. I got pretty tight with
Mark Levatt up there and Barry Rubin. They knew what to do, right,
Yeah, And I lifted a tonand I got super strong, and

(21:37):
that was nice to feel that,like coming out of the injury that I
had, and I was ready togo. You know, by the end
of that season, I was readyto play for sure. But then you
go to yeah, yeah, theysend me to NFL Europe, and is
that Green Bay sending you there?The Packers send you there? Okay?
And that was back when there usedto be more stuff going on with NFL
Europe. Now that we just shipteams over there to play games, right,

(21:57):
I know, I think they werejust trying. It was like an
outre effort by the NFL. Andthen they had the Developmental League for guys
like me who maybe are coming backfrom an injury or maybe just not quite
there as far as skill level goesyet, and which is cool. Every
guy I've talked to that's gone overthere like it was awesome. It was
incredible. It was totally fushly,but it was so fun. I mean,
if we didn't make Buch funny.And but you got to live in

(22:18):
a different culture nor Scotland, right, and I was in Scotland and so
we were based out of the Centraltrain station. There was a hotel right
there, so it was like rightin downtown Glasgow and it was so fun.
One memory I always have of playingin NFL Europe it was so bushly.
You know, there's like maybe threereporters covering the team. So every
home game we'd come in and ourmain sponsor was Corps Light It's on our

(22:41):
uniform, right, and so we'dcome in after the games and those big
laundry tubs. Yeah, you know, you throw your jerseys and whatnot in
to get washed. They'd have twoof those filled it was plastic ones filled
with cors light on ice. Ohmy gosh, that's awesome. So I
would just go straight to the veer, grabbed like six and I'd go sit

(23:02):
down in my locker in my uniformand we'd be drinking beers. Oh,
you're like the players of the seventies. It was incredible. You couldn't get
away with that anywhere else, Right, you couldn't do it in college,
You couldn't do it in the Inthe NFL, yeah, and there's you
could do it in the NFL Europe. It was great. That's awesome,
Mike. And you played when youwere out there, Yeah, I played
every since Scottish Claymores. You playedevery snap. And we had a great

(23:23):
year. We did. We hada great running back, a diverse team,
which is fun playing with guys fromother countries. They weren't great players,
but they were. It was niceto be exposed to the different cultures
and we had an amazing season.We lost the championship game in the last
minute, the other team kicks afield goal. We go down the field
to try to tie it in ourlittle barefooted kicker from England. It was

(23:45):
not a good kick to tie it, and we walked off the field and
we lost the championship. Oh man, which is a trend for me.
I've lost three championships. Wait whatother ones? Oh? Wait? Oh
lost a super Bowl? That's right, we need to get to that one.
Okay, all right? So thenso you do your stint in NFL
Europe, you come back, andthen what happens. So I came back
and I felt like I was can'tmeet because you got an exemption. They

(24:07):
gave you a roster exemption if youwere an NFL Europe Okay, you could
stay on until the end and itwouldn't count against your roster numbers. So
green Bay keeps you on. Theykeep me on as an exemptions. I
mean, maybe they gave you.They probably gave me a fair shots.
Can't meet. I'm making that.It's not funny, but yeah, that's

(24:29):
what I felt like, you know. And so I went through to the
end and got cut in the lastcut, and I drove away from Green
Bay, and I was at peacewith that. But I also realized that
camp I buyed a lot of headgames. Like I talked earlier, like
I was like trying to do themath with different guys like, oy,
if they keep this guy, what'sgoing to mean for this? And you
know, I was doing all thismath like, well, if they keep
ad offensive lineman or if they keephowever many defensive linemen, where do I

(24:51):
fit in? And that was nothealthy and that was part of the reflection
after that season, like I can'tworry about what other people are doing.
I can't control that stuff. Ican control my effort and what I'm doing
out there. And that actually reallyhelped me the next you know, through
four years of my career good whichthen you go to I signed with Saint
Louis Ram Saint Louis and just walkedinto a team that was like just loaded

(25:12):
with amazing players and amazing coaches.I had the living legend of offensive line
coaches there. Jim Hannifan, hewas unbelievable. He would take as much
care with a guy like me thatwas on practice squad as Orlando Pace,
who's like an All pro. Ohthat's cool. He was. He was
really special. He means a lotto me as a coach. He's probably
the coaching the NFL that I bondedwith the most and so I spent that

(25:34):
year there. We went to theplayoffs, we lost in the first round,
and then come back the next year. I really thought I was going
to make the active roster that nextyear. I had a great offseason.
I went to every workout like Ididn't miss anything. There's like two of
us that didn't miss any workouts.And they would take your picture and they'd
put it up in the weight roomone hundred percent school, right, Yeah.
I think it was like a motivatingthing, you know, like ninety

(25:56):
percent and they take a picture ofyou like working out in the weight room,
it up on the on the wall. And I also think like maybe
that played in my advantage too,like how do you cut the guy that
just that's one hundred percent? Right? So I thought I was going to
make the after froster and I gotcalled in that last right at the final
last moment, final cuts, andthey cut me and then they signed me
the practice squad again. And thatwas just an amazing year for me.

(26:19):
I think just being a part ofa team that was that goody. I
mean, I still I still don'tunderstand how we lost that Super Bowl.
We lost the Patriots last second kickthey kicked a field goal with no time
left. We had so many Hallof famers on that team. It was
really a special place to be.And I spent two years on practice squad
there, And that's part of theNFL too. I know that you know
this, but like you know,somebody else's injury is another person's opportunity,

(26:41):
right. That offensive line stayed sohealthy for two years. It was unbelievable.
And I would never wish I'd dothink on those guys because they were
an amazing group of guys. Yougot Orlando, you got Adam Timmerman,
Andy McCollum. I mean, therewas just good, good dudes on that
offense that never got hurt, nevergot hurt for those two years. It's
the next year they were going downlike flies. I'm not there. I
was gone. So we went tothe super Bowl. We lose the super

(27:04):
Bowl. It is heartbreaking. It'sstill hurts to this day. Like I
think, I always go through this, like many you know, three day
cycle of like depression right every yearabout this time when we're playoff time.
Yeah, right around Super Bowl becauseit all comes back second place. You
know, everybody's like, oh it'scool, you went to it. And
you made it and there's no ring, there's no And even as a practice

(27:26):
squad player, and I talked toJimmy Spencer about this, there's a pride
that comes with that because you're theone there going up against all the ones
all the time. You're the oneout there helping them to figure out how
to beat the next team. Sopractice squad isn't just like you're just hanging
out doing nothing. You're working.Oh, you're working, for sure.
I tell people this, like Iwould show up to work at six am

(27:47):
and I would leave at like sixthirty pm. It was like twelve hour
plus days. Yeah, and you'redoing football the whole time, and you
got to be ready to go,you know, you really do. You
need to say alert with the plays. You got to know exactly what you're
doing in case somebody gets hurt.I only have to know what your team's
doing, but you gotta know whatthe other teams every really do so you're
focused. It was intense. Itwas great. I played with amazing players.

(28:08):
I mean I mentioned the Hall offamers, but like Marshall Fulk,
you've got Isaac Bruce, Tory Holtzshould be in there. Kurt Warner.
I think London Fletcher's got He's nota Hall of Famer, but man like
I was good and E. S. Williams. I mean, it was
just guy after guy after the stackedteam. It was Yeah, we were
so good. So after that SuperBowl loss that still haunts you, you

(28:29):
go to Houston. Yeah, Houston, that's your final stop and it was
my final stop. Was their expansionyear. Did they grab you off of
waivers? No? So at theend of the Super Bowl, like,
I was free to sign with whoI wanted, all right, and Buffalo
wanted to sign me and Houston,and I got a little bit more money
from Houston, so I went downthere. It was an interesting experience,
like starting from scratch, I betit was. Yeah. We were passing

(28:49):
the astroism at first, and thesurface was not level. It was that
old school turf. It was theworst. And then they opened up the
facility, which was beautiful. Itwas good to be along for that those
first years of it. But wewere not good our offensive line. We
gave up a ton of sacks thatfirst year. And you know, my
first year football, my freshman yearat Littleton High School, it was a

(29:11):
losing record. And then My lastyear really being on a team was with
Houston. It was my was alosing record, but everything in between I
was on winning teams. It wasunbelievable stretch of like just being a winner,
right, and it felt good.So just my first and last were
the bookends of losing teams, andthen in between was just all kinds of
goodness. And did you ever geton the field in an NFL game?

(29:33):
Preseason? Preseason? You did?So, I joke. I used to
joke about this a lot, andI could still joke about it. I
would say I had the most unsuccessfulfive year NFL career in history. I
just I couldn't get my way ontothe field. And I know part of
was the injury stuff. Part ofit year undrafted free agent, you're gonna
have a little bit tougher road anyway. I just wasn't quite good enough to

(29:56):
get on the field. And Ithink also it was good enough. It's
amazing how many like little missed opportunitiesthere are out there. Like I think
about when I was in uson mysecond last year, I had a shoulder
surgery before the season started, soI started out on the physically unable to
perform list. And then they Ipracticed my three weeks, I traveled with
the team to Tennessee. I'm thinkingthey're gonna put me on active roster at

(30:18):
the end of the three weeks.Right Coach Capers calls me in the night
before, on that Saturday night,we're in Tennessee, and he says,
hey, we're going to put youon IR for the rest of the year.
Just get healthy, get focused fornext season. It's like, all
right, that's great. I wasgrateful to be around for the rest of
the year. I was glad Iwasn't getting cut again. Yes, And
so we go play the game thenext day Monday, one of the guards
goes a wall. A guy onthe team goes a wall. He leaves,

(30:41):
he just we never saw him again. And they signed a guy off
at the practice squad literally that Monday. They couldn't put me in that position
because they had already put me onIR on Saturday night. Oh my gosh,
it's forty eight hours that Yeah.I mean, Mike, I think
that might have been a chance forme, you know, But that's how
it goes in the NFL. Youhave tight spaces to fit into. It's

(31:02):
sometimes really hard to find them andfit your way into those spaces. Now
are you vested? I am?Okay, So even though you didn't play,
isn't that crazy? Yeah? Soit's three years and three games.
You just have to be somehow onthe roster, whether it's practice squad or
not. There's all kinds of ruleshere, I know. So I was
like, are you vested or not? YEA, great, I am.

(31:23):
It's crazy. So my first yearin Green Bay, they put me on
that pup list. I practiced thethree weeks and they actually moved me up
to active roster for the last sevenweeks of the year, so I got
a credit season there. I didn'tplay, practice, did all the things.
I was on active roster for sevenweeks, so I got credit season
there. Then I come back tothe next two years and I get you
know, the practice squad You don'tget any credit for practice squad years unless

(31:45):
you get a season after the practicesquad year. If you get a credit
season after the practice squad year,then they give you one back. They
give you a practice squad year back. I don't think I said that very
well. Who And So I hadthe two years of practice squad. Then
I went to Houston and the iryou're counted. So now I've got two
credited seasons, and they count theone the second season of saying. The

(32:06):
next year, I go to trainingcamp and this is kind of the end.
I get hurt in training camp andhurt my knee, and I got
an injury settlement that pushed into theseason, which gave me one of the
practice squad of years back. Plusit counts as a season my fourth year.
So I ended up with four creditedseasons without playing it down the most
unsuccessful five years history. You gavea lot to be there, you did.

(32:29):
I mean you think about the youknow, the injuries and and all
the places you went. You gavea lot. It's okay, you know,
I think it's I know you're notshamed, but I you know,
it's like I think there was apoint in my life I was a little
ashamed. I remember this guy pittingme down once, like tell me what
game you played it. He's likebeing mister tough guy, and I was
like, I didn't play in agame, man, and he like turns
and walks away like he's better thanme or something like you. I was

(32:51):
pissed, Oh yeah, you shouldbe, and so as I think back
on my career, I'm super freakingproud of myself and my career. I
made it to a place not manypeople make it too, and I did
it because I worked my ass off, and I'm really I'm really effing proud
of that. Mike, Yeah,thank you, And I joke about it.

(33:13):
I lost, by the way,this is true. It does,
which I'm all for. I'm gratefulfor my career. It was good.
I came back that last year.We were in training camp. I was
actually like starting center. We werepassing against the Cowboys in the Alamo down
the town in San Antonio, andthe dude just got whipped across one of
my teammates through a guy and hejust landed right on my knee. So

(33:34):
I pot my MCL again and thatwas it. It was interesting because I
felt the wobble, I felt thepop. I played one more down and
I remember walking off the field going, thank God, it's over. It's
over. Finally I knew my careerwas done. I wasn't going to seek
out any more opportunities. I knewI wasn't going to get any more opportunities.
More importantly, it was such arelief I bet like a few months

(34:00):
ago, there was a wellness eventin Denver for former NFL players and I
went to it and I walked into the hotel where we were staying.
It was really a great weekend.The NFLPA did a great thing for us.
And the guy asked me when I'mwalking in, well, what position
are you play? And I waslike it took me a second. I'm
like, gosh, I barely knowthat guy anymore. I played center,
I played guard. And then hegoes, you know what, there's only

(34:22):
one other guy that's ever told methat like that they don't recognize the person
that because it's been so long,they don't recognize that person, and that
they were twenty years ago. Igo, who was it. He's like,
he told me the guy's name.He's like, he's here tonight too,
and he works for the NFLPA.So I got a chance to talk
to him about his career, andhe just he said the same thing.
He's like, I was tired ofwhat it was taking from my body,

(34:45):
and the injuries were stacking up forme personally. When I was playing the
NFL, I could seem like everyheart hit, something else would happen.
It was a little frightening and lookingforward into my future. Oh yeah,
with the injury piece and how washe even playing in the game. That
was just battling through practice and you'rehiding things. You know, if you
get hurt in the NFL, you'regonna get cut. So yeah, I
mean, it's a it's a toughroad. It's a hard the grind in

(35:07):
every sport, but I think footballespecially because it's so physical, so hard
on your body. And then whenyou're so when you're in the NFL,
are you married you have kids bythen or that's the thing to think about
you talk about your future, You'relike, I'd like to be a dad
that can hang out with my kidsand play with my kids. Right.
So Kate and I we were wemet at CSU and today we got married

(35:28):
right before my last season, gotcut for the last last time in Houston.
Okay, So we got married intwo thousand and three and we've had
three kids together. She's an amazingmother. The kiddos are at Lions High
School and Lions Middle School and theyplay sports. They're amazing. That's awesome.
So they came after your NFL career, Yes, Okay, everything came
after. Oh that's good. Soyou have to spend good time with them,

(35:50):
yes, oh oh my gosh.Like right now, it's like ten
basketball games a week, agree,because my daughter plays a little bit of
JV and she starts on RC andthen my plays a lot of JV and
gets a little bit of playing timeon varsity. And my other son's got
two games on Saturday. So it'sjust like that's fun and it's a it's
a blast. I love right supportingthem, connecting with them, and really

(36:12):
that's what life is about right now. Absolutely. And we talked about what
you are doing now for a jobthat is not landscape horticulture, but you
are teaching. You've been a peteacher for several years, like started in
middle school and elementary school now fortwenty years. Twenty years you've been in
twenty years. I've been in theteaching and it's been so good to me.
That's awesome. And I've found thislittle niche at this elementary school in

(36:34):
Lalmont. It's like the holy Grailof teaching. It's amazing. I've got
this boss. She's incredible. Actuallyactually went to school there. She taught
for a long time before she becameand it is she went to the elementary
went to the elementary school, soshe's got that total buy in, right.
And then I've got like my bestfriends or the people I work with,
And it's the exact opposite of whatfootball is, right. Football like
it's all men all the time.Now I'm with fifty people on staff and

(36:58):
there's three guys, right. ButI love my coworkers and the kids are
great. We've got a really nicecommunity of people that go to school there.
And have you thought about doing anycoaching at any point or anything like
that or not yet with your kidsbeing so busy. So I coached like
before I had kids, right whenI finished my NFL career. Oh he
coach at Lions. Actually at Lions. Oh wow, we weren't living there

(37:21):
at the time. It was agreat team. We had a really good
team. In the second year,we went out to Lineman and they had
like a fifty game winning's streak going. It was like the all time state
record for Colorado. Tyson Leggett whoended up playing it. Yeah, he
was their quarterback and the guy hadnever lost a game in his career.
And we go out there and wejust control the clock. We had the
ball for like thirty seven out offorty eight minutes, and we beat him

(37:43):
in the semi finals. And thenwe go on and we play Akron and
there's a little single winging offense thatthey have with the spinner backs. It's
insane, but they he's like goingto play air force, right it is.
It was unreal, and we beathim earlier that year and they beat
us for the state title. Wasthat another last second field goal? Is
that the now? What was yourthird one on the last second field goal?

(38:05):
No? So, so I've lostthree championshiphip, three championships, I
mean NFL europe Championship, last secondfield goal, lost to Patriots, last
second field goal, and then welost to Acron in the state championship.
But when I was a coach atLions High School, got us. Okay,
yeah, but I've coached like prettymuch everything else for my kids.
You name a sport, I've probablycoached it. That's fine. And so
I'm at that point right now though, where I'm a spectator. I don't

(38:27):
want to coach somebody else's kids.Well, my kids are playing a game
over here. So I'm just likesuper focused on just being there for my
own kids and I want to watchthem play and compete. My son,
he's a cross country runner. Hewent to state this year. They got
fourth place as a team. Hewas the fifth place runner for Lions,
so it was pretty awesome. Thatwas really special. My daughter's got a
great volleyball team. They made itto regionals this year. So really it's
all just about supporting them. Atthis point, you're being a dad.

(38:50):
Maybe I'll coach again in the future, who knows, Yeah, way down
the road. Yeah, that's fantastic, Mike. All right, So last
question for you, as you wrapup and you've listened to a couple of
podcasts, you know this is coming. What do you tell people you had
some pretty dark times with injuries whenyou were in the NFL, and now
that you've got three kids, whatdo you tell them? And what do
you even tell your elementary kiddos whenthey you know, they get down.

(39:12):
I mean, it's our society iscrazy and weird, and what are your
words of wisdom to get back ina good direction. Gosh, I think
it's so situational. It is.It was so funny because I was listening
to podcast through the last week andthen I had a second grader come up
to me on Friday and ask me, right at the end of the day,
she goes, you know, what'sthe point of life? That's what

(39:34):
she says to me. A secondgreater second grader asked me that out of
the blue, like everybody's active,everybody's like super engaged. And she comes
up and asks me that, Andwhat came out of my mouth was really
fast. It was be joyful andhelp others. And I think the key
there is like how do you findyour joy? Right? I think part
of it is like honoring who youare as a person, even though it
might not be like what the societalnorm might dictate to you what you think

(39:58):
it might be, which is honoringyourself and finding joy in that regard.
And then you're going to be inbetter shape to be able to take care
of others, you know, ifyou take care of yourself. So what'd
she say When you said that?She smiled and ran away started We're doing
this wild mike for a second graderto ask that, Yeah, it was
still random. Well prepped you perfectlyfor the podcast. Then I know I
was thinking about it, because Iknow I was thinking about Okay, what

(40:21):
kind of depth stuff and it wasjust so quick out of my mouth.
Be joyful and help others. Ithink the tricky part is, you know,
being joyful, it takes the turnsthat you don't expect, and how
do you work through that? Seekhelp, give yourself grace, be kind
to others, and talk to people. I think that's the biggest thing sometimes
that comes from your generation of athletes, is that there's so many things that

(40:43):
aren't talked about, whether it bethe injury part or anything else that happens.
And now I hope there's more opportunitiesfor people to talk and be open
and talk about how man I wentto some crazy places when I was sitting
there in that training room or whereveryou happen to be, and now it's
okay to talk about it, whichis huge. Absolutely, And sometimes when
you're in those circumstances, you feellike you're the only one yes, and

(41:05):
you're not. You're alone and you'renot. There's other people like you going
through similar things. Absolutely, tohave that conversation, whether you're in that
space or if you're out of thatspace and maybe you sense it from somebody
else, it's really important listen It'sso important to listen to people. That's
what I love about doing this podcastis that we're able to kind of get
things out there and people can telltheir stories and people can listen, because

(41:29):
I don't think we listen enough toothers. We get so absorbed in talking
and talking and talking and talking andwe don't listen. Beautiful. This is
awesome. Yes, hey, thanksfor coming in. This is awesome.
Thank you so much for yeah,thank you, Thank you, Mike.
New episodes of Cut, Traded,Fired, Retired are released on Tuesdays.
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(41:50):
podcasts. You can also follow podcastupdates and get information about new releases on
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(42:13):
and until next time, please becareful, be safe, and be kind. Take care