Developing Consistency Within a Creative Practice with Zoe Sernack

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Daring Creatively: Unfiltered is an Australian art podcast where Sydney-based contemporary artist Korynn Morrison picks up the phone, drops a surprise topic into the conversation, and hits record.

In this episode Korynn calls Sydney-based contemporary artist Zoe Sernack. Through layering, obscuring, revealing and reworking, each piece evolves as a visual conversation between structure and spontaneity. The surprise topic: developing consistency within a creative practice.

Zoe is one of those artists that Korynn has watched from a distance for years, consistently showing up, consistently getting into prizes, consistently getting her work in front of people. So this conversation was always going to go somewhere good.

In this honest unplanned conversation two artists talk about what consistency actually looks like in a real creative life, why showing up for even 10 minutes counts, how motherhood made Zoe more laser focused not less, the happy mistakes that have become central to her layered process, teaching workshops interstate every month and what that gives back to her own practice, and the Nepean Hospital commission — a major redevelopment project that Zoe is talking about publicly for the very first time in this episode.

She also has an exhibition opening at Brenda Colahan Fine Arts in Redfern on August 13th.

If you love art podcasts, conversations about the real creative life, or you are an artist trying to figure out how to show up more consistently for your practice, this one is for you.

New episodes drop whenever the call happens.

Zoe Sernack Relevant Links:

Ana on Instagram HERE.

Upcoming Exhibition August 13th at Brenda Colahan Fine Arts.

Nepean Hospital Redevelopment Commission HERE.

Creative Stuff Sydney (Margi & Pedro)- Canvas Stretching, Panels and Framing HERE.

SH Ervin Gallery 2026 Salon Des Refuses HERE.

Korynn Morrison Relevant Links

Join My Inner Circle: https://www.korynnmorrison.com/mailing-list

Creative Coaching & Mentorship: https://www.thecuriositycoach.com.au/creative-coaching

Visit My Website: https://www.korynnmorrison.com/

Find me on Instagram HERE

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_04 (00:01):
My guest today is the unbelievably talented Zoe
Cernak.
Zoe's practice explores theAustralian landscape as a place
of memory, emotion andconnection.
Through layering, obscuring,revealing and reworking, each
piece evolves as a visualconversation between structure
and spontaneity.

(00:22):
Zoe graduated from the NationalArt School and has held nine
solo exhibitions acrossAustralia.
She's been a finalist inmultiple art prizes, including
the 2026 Salon de Refuse, andteaches workshops interstate
every month.
Most excitingly, she has justcompleted a major commission for
the redevelopment of NippanHospital, which she is sharing

(00:45):
publicly for the very first timeright here on this podcast
episode.
Upcoming for her is anincredible exhibition at Brenda
Collaghan Fine Arts in Redfern,which opens on August 13th.
And the surprise topic that Igave her today was developing

(01:05):
consistency within a creativepractice.
Now, this is a really, reallybeautiful, honest conversation.
I think you guys are gonna get alot out of this one.
So grab yourselves a cupper,let's dive in.

(01:33):
No plan, no prep, no agenda,just two creatives having a
chat.
I'm Karin Morrison, Australianartist, cup overflowing
personality, and someone whogenuinely gets way too excited
talking about the creative life.
My guests are artists at everystage of the journey.
And the conversations thathappen when nobody's performing,

(01:56):
those are the ones that wereally need to hear.
So grab a coffee, get into yourstudio, and come hang with us.
This is Daring CreativelyUnfiltered.
Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
Hello, lovely.
How are you?
Oh, I'm not working.
Hold on two seconds.
I can hear you.
I know.
Look, I hear I'm trying to beyour audio special, but not
working too well.
There you go.
I'll just have to hold thephone.

SPEAKER_04 (02:28):
Oh no, that's fine.
You can keep me on track.
That way your arm gets a littlebit sore.
So if I speak over time and youneed to go, it will be up
propped.

SPEAKER_02 (02:39):
I was all organized and I wasn't.

SPEAKER_04 (02:41):
And then I thought to myself, oh my god, it's been
so long since I've actually seenyou.
I think the last time I ran intoyou was like last year at oh it
would have been affordable artfair or something.

SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
Yeah, I think it was.

SPEAKER_04 (02:53):
I think it was.
God, how much has happened sincethen?

SPEAKER_01 (02:57):
A lot, actually.
A lot.
I feel like I've had somechunky, yeah.
I feel like I've had some reallya chunky two, three year period,
actually, for whatever lots ofdifferent reasons, but um, which
I'm happy to talk about.
But yeah, but it's um, yeah,it's been I think life's just
chunky in general, basically.

SPEAKER_04 (03:15):
It is, but like the thing is, like I've been um like
before each one of these calls,I like I take a little bit of
time to like just really likethink about the artist that I'm
talking about, because when Icome up with these surprise
topics, they're very intuitive.
They're not like me goingthrough your artist statement

(03:38):
and piecing something out,they're what I kind of see in
the artist myself.
That's cool.
When I was thinking about you,like I think I was actually
trying to think back to thefirst time I I actually
remember.

SPEAKER_01 (03:54):
Well, I actually remember because I was thinking,
well, I was actually thinkingyou was like, I must have found
you.
I'm guessing on Instagram, andthen I contacted you, and that I
think that was I hadn't goneinto doing big boards yet, and I
contacted you and said, Hey,could you help me?

SPEAKER_02 (04:11):
Yeah, can you help me find somebody that could make
some big boards for me?

SPEAKER_01 (04:15):
And you were straight away like, yep, here's
a number, here'sda-da-da-da-da-da.
Yeah, I gave you Pedro's number.
Yeah, well, yeah, and Maggie,and Maggie's like a, you know, I
don't know, Maggie from CreativeStuff is just like a little
fairy godmother to me.

SPEAKER_04 (04:27):
Oh, isn't she?
Oh, she's amazing.
They've made all of my panelsand framed all my work and they
come and pick everything up,they drop everything off.
There you go.
See, they didn't even know theywere gonna get a shout out
today, and I know they listenedto the podcast, so there you go.
Creative stuff.

SPEAKER_02 (04:43):
Very deserving.

SPEAKER_04 (04:43):
Okay, don't worry, I'll put their link in the show
notes now.

SPEAKER_02 (04:46):
Um, but I just thought, even just straight
away, the fact that you sharedthat information because it's a
funny world that we're in, as inevery probably world that people
can be particularly cagey ornot, you know, want to share
information, this and that.

SPEAKER_01 (04:59):
And straight away you did not hesitate at all.
I was like, I like this girl,like she's cool.
Like the fact that you were yougot asked a question and you're
like, Yeah, here, here's theinformation, go for it.
Yeah, but I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_04 (05:10):
I just think, oh look, that's what you see is
what you get with me.
And it's like there is no, like,this is the one thing is that
like there's not I just don'tthink that there's any reason to
be protective or um and I thinkthat if you are that kind of
person, you attract more of itto yourself.

(05:30):
You end up building all thisresistance around your practice
and all this fear of peoplestealing things.
And yeah, I just don't think itserves anyone.
And it's like at the end of theday, if we can't celebrate each
other and help each other win,then you know, like you just end
up becoming a you know a grouch.

(05:50):
Yes, 100%, 100%.
There's no need for that.
So I was sitting and I wasthinking about Zoe, and I was
thinking, what's one word thatcomes to mind when I think about
Zoe?
And do you know what?
The one thing that I've observedin you right from the word go is
your consistency, developingconsistency within a creative

(06:15):
practice because you have beendamn consistent in getting into
art prizes.
In fact, weren't you on thatlike top artist list at some
stage for getting into finalistson that?
What was that?

SPEAKER_01 (06:28):
I don't know.
I mean, that's good if I was,but that's not something I know
about.

SPEAKER_04 (06:33):
It was, I think it was, I don't know whether it was
last year or the year before,but I remember it was something
to do with the art prizescalendar, and they put up like
this diagram of artists thathave been in finalists for lots
of different prizes, and yourname was on it.
Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 (06:47):
I did not know that.

SPEAKER_04 (06:48):
Oh, really?
Oh no.
I'll have to go back and see ifI can find it for you.
Um but you've been consistent ingetting into prizes, you've been
consistent in getting your workout there in front of people,
and then I think I startedseeing your work in the flesh
when you were when Sarah Bertleswas showing a lot of your work.

(07:09):
Yeah.
And um, she's an amazing ladytoo.
She's awesome.
She's awesome.
Yeah, she's awesome.
And yeah, so that's what Iwanted to throw at you today.
Developing consistency within acreative practice.
Because at the end of the day, Imean, I mentor a lot of creative

(07:30):
people, and there's a lot ofpeople that want to talk about
their ideas.
They have all of these ideas,and at the end of the day, if
we're not in the studio gettingour hands dirty, producing a
shit ton of work and throwing alot of pain at the wall and
making a lot of mistakes, weactually don't move the ball
forward.
And all I see in you is you'reconstantly moving the ball

(07:53):
forward.
So I the first question I wantedto ask you is what does a
consistent creative practiceactually look like for you here
and now versus what it didprevious?
Because I know that you've donea lot of things previous to
being full-time in the studio.

SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, well, I think I mean, Ithink you you've already said it
and you've said it in interviewsthat you've done about your
work.
It is just showing up.
And I think it's it's funny.
I've always had this funny sortof relationship with mistakes,
and now I've just decided tocall them happy mistakes because
um, again, like you, we'reworking with layers, and I think

(08:35):
working in layers, you have toget rid of a lot of your fear of
starting.
And because you just put thingsdown, and if you don't like it,
you change it.
And because I am working inlayers, I can easily, you know,
put a big shape over somethingthat I'm like, that doesn't
work.
So um, and when it comes toyeah, it is it is consistent,
it's it is just showing up, it'sjust making sure that you are

(08:58):
spending you you forge that timeout every day to make sure that
you are creating.
And that doesn't necessarilymean that I have to be in the
studio.
It could be me going off to thepark and taking photographs of
reflections, or it could be mehaving a conversation like this
because I know that I'm gonnaget a buzz out of this
conversation, and that's gonnathen propel me to do you know

(09:19):
something else creativelyafterwards.
So it's just putting yourself inenvironments constantly that
just keep you excited about whatyou're doing.
And if if you aren't excitedabout what you're doing, it's
also reminding yourself thattomorrow is another day.
Yeah.
And you can go in there,especially the the practice that
I do, you can go in there andyou can then make the changes as

(09:41):
you seem fit at the time in anintuitive manner.
So it's um it's about havingfun.
It's having fun with it and notlosing, you know, the
perspective on the reality isthat we are in an evolving world
and we're gonna evolve in it,and just making sure that you
again show up and just do yourbest in that moment and see what

(10:03):
happens tomorrow.

SPEAKER_04 (10:04):
Yeah, and I think one of the things that you just
said that just landed for methen, which, you know, I think
is something worth saying.
It's like, you know, artists areat all various stages of their
career, and there's so like 90%of us are not in the studio full
time.
I mean, I'm lucky enough to bein the studio full time, you're
lucky enough to be in the studiofull time, but 90% of people are

(10:27):
juggling multiple things.
And I know you're a mum too, sothat it's a constant juggle.
But the thing is, if you createsome sort of consistency for
yourself to be constantlytapping back in, it means that
there's actually less resistancewithin the studio time.
So, for example, if you'resomeone that can only carve out,

(10:47):
say, three hours a week, that'sfine.
But those three hours need to besuch a priority for you because
what happens is if you say toyourself, okay, or if you affirm
to the people around you, Ithink this is one thing that
I've probably spoken about thatpeople have heard me rant on
about, is that developingcreative boundaries for

(11:10):
yourself, and you might want toriff off what your boundaries
are after this, but if you sayto the people around you in your
life, okay, this week I've got ablock of, I need five hours of
studio time, you have to be damnwell sure that you're gonna show
up for those five hours becausethe moment that you actually go

(11:30):
back on your own word, it meansthat all the people around you
actually don't take youseriously either.
So the one thing that I'mconstantly saying is when people
put together, you know, aconsistent schedule for
themselves or develop thosecreative boundaries, affirm it
out loud, but then you've got tostick to it.
And what happens is if you beginto stick to your consistency,

(11:53):
there's less pressure that comesinto the studio with you.

SPEAKER_01 (11:58):
Yeah, and I also think that once you do do those,
say, those three hours, verysoon you're gonna want four
hours.
And then you're gonna want fivehours because you've proved to
yourself that you can find thosehours, whether it's half an
hour.
I mean, literally, you know,I've got a son who was into
soccer, so he was watching theWorld Cup this morning, and I

(12:19):
just had that itch, and Iliterally put a big canvas on
the ground for the 10 minutesand put a whole lot of gold
paint on it this morning, and Iwas like, yeah, that satisfied
me in that moment, and it wasliterally 10 minutes of doing
that.
So, yeah, and it just like okay,cool.
I just I made I reacted to myemotions and I just did
something that filled my cup upfor that moment.

(12:40):
Um, and you will want it more,and I think when it comes to
people, you know, because I dodo teaching as well, and people
are like, Oh, I haven't doneanything for so long, and
they're quite timid, which istotally understandable.
But with then with the peoplewho may be doing an hour a week,
they just they're you know,they're just the cobwares are
off a little bit and they'rejust they can stretch out and
go, okay, well, this is not soforeign to me emotionally and

(13:02):
physically and mentally, andthey can throw themselves into
it just a with a little bit morekindness.

SPEAKER_04 (13:07):
So yeah, absolutely.
And I think the other thing isthat when you stop kind of
switching out, so to speak, ifyou put pressure around your
life to go, okay, this is mycreative time and this is my
time where I'm, you know,working on this.
If you if you start to actuallycreate an ecosystem around your

(13:29):
entire creative life, that is,everything feeds into your
creativity.
It's not so much about justbeing rigid, it's about exactly
what you said just then.
It's like you were feeling thenudge.
You found a way of creating asacred creative time for
yourself in 10 minutes.
You know, making breakfast canbe a creative pursuit if you

(13:50):
allow it to.
And so it's like creativitycannot be separated from our
lives at all, that in myopinion.

SPEAKER_01 (13:57):
No, and it's not though, too, because you know,
if people are driving to work,they've already chosen the kind
of music for to match theirmood, or they've chosen what
clothes to put on to match that.
You know, it's it's we're allwe're all making choices in a
creative sense already.
So it's just being aware of thatand going, okay, well, how do I

(14:19):
feel today?
And matching that that creativespace to maybe an activity as
well.
So I know there's days where Idon't I don't feel like painting
is just it's not it's not theday that I'm gonna do any
painting.
Um, so it's like, well, okay,what else can I do?
Okay, well, maybe I'll get myiPad out and just draw over my
paintings or you know, just findanother way.

(14:39):
And there's just obviouslythere's so many ways that um you
can be creative.

SPEAKER_04 (14:44):
Yeah.
And what does your system kindof look like for yourself now?
Because you were previously umyou were doing jewellery,
weren't you?
And then things have pivoted,and now you're doing workshops.
And so far as your rhythm.

SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
So I've always I've always painted.
So I basically went straightfrom high school, straight to
the national art school.
Um like me.
I didn't realise that.
Yeah, yeah.
But early days, so it was EastSydney TAFE at this at the
stage, and then I went off toKofar because they were the only
ones at the state at that timewhere they're offering a degree.
Yeah.
Did a year there, and then itbecame the National Arts School,

(15:18):
and I got my degree in 2000.
Oh.
So yeah, and funnily enough, Ium I was there.
I I did my most of my study whenmy mum was also there.
She was at the national artschool at the same time doing
photography.

SPEAKER_03 (15:32):
Oh gosh, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 (15:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (15:34):
Well, it was funny because I think a lot of the
students were like, wow, I wouldcome back to this environment
and do it with my mum.
But I was like, no, we we werequite happy just to, you know,
do our thing.
So um obviously there's so muchself-discovery when you're at
art school, but I was like, no,this is all this is I know that
this is where I'm meant to be.
I don't I'm not trying to findmy, you know, who I am.

SPEAKER_01 (15:53):
I know, I know that I want to do art, and that's
that was always a given from youknow, from a very young age.

SPEAKER_04 (15:59):
So was that because of your mum?
Because she was creative aswell?

SPEAKER_01 (16:03):
Uh yeah, well, both both my parents are are really
into photography.
So I've always grown up withdark rooms in our in our homes.
So I think I was thinking aboutthis the other day because
someone asked me a really goodquestion and it triggered things
in me.
And I thought, oh well, Isuppose with parents, with
photography and being exposed tothat, shapes and you know,
certain the way you look at theworld has probably impacted the

(16:27):
way I paint as well, which I'venever thought about before until
just recently.
So, um, because obviously it wasblack and white photography as
well.
It wasn't colour, so it meant,and also, you know, my mum's
into lots of patterns andtextures and you know, sunsets
and sunrises and water, youknow, whereas um dad's quite
different.
So um, yeah, so it probably itprobably has, you know,

(16:51):
obviously there's that creativegene is there.
Um, and it's yeah, but I just Ithink it was always painting for
me too.
So so yeah, to answer yourquestion, I was so I was at art
school, and while I was at artschool, I was working at jewelry
stores.
And then I was like, hold on asecond, I can do this myself.
So I on the side of doingexhibitions um and painting, I

(17:15):
started up um some jewelrybusinesses, and that was the the
thing that I would put intostores or be involved in fashion
weeks or whatever it was, whileand that would help me have
those exhibitions and keeppainting.
So it's always been a balancebetween the two.
And then having kids umobviously took space.
So I was like, okay, this is thetime where I just need to

(17:37):
concentrate on one thing, andpainting's always been is always
been my thing.

SPEAKER_04 (17:41):
Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.
I mean, if it's one thing thatkids teach you, it's you know, a
forced um as much as it's it'skind of in one way it's chaos,
and in the other way it's aforced presence.
And I think a lot of people thatlike especially for me, I know
I've spoken about it before.

(18:02):
The the one thing that um thatyou know having a baby taught me
was it actually taught me that Ihad no idea how to stop.
I didn't realize how much onthis constant pace of striving
forwards, having goals,continually moving.
I was like a shark.

(18:22):
And I still am kind of in thecity.
You're pretty prolific.
Yeah.
But it's like I literally had noidea what it felt like to sit
still.
And um, you know how kids justrequire undivided presence.
You can't be half there.
And it was such a jarring thingfor me in the early days.

(18:42):
It took me so long to learn howto just be still.
And, you know, man, did thatchange my art?
Did kids change your art a lotas well?

SPEAKER_01 (18:53):
It changed in the fact that it wasn't as
accessible, and it meant thatnow I feel like I'm a bit on
catch-up as well.
Like I feel like, okay, well,now it's time that when I'm here
because my time is so preciousthat the great thing is is it I
don't I probably don't think asmuch as I would have if, you

(19:15):
know, if I that time wasn't asprecious and so sandwiched
between pickups and drop-offs orwhatever it is.
So now it's like, no, I'm justgonna get going.
And it's it's rewarding becauseit's sort of a reaction to not
being able to indulge in, ohwell, I've got time here and
there and flop and flop around.
So I think it's definitelyhelped me just bit a bit more

(19:38):
laser focused.
I think.
Yeah, absolutely.
Um I mean I've always wantedI've always I always like the
doing and I always like problemsolving and all that sort of
stuff.
So that's always been there, butnow it's just enhanced.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (19:51):
And so where where did you kind of because it's
only recently that you pivotedto being in the studio full time
and you changed studios as well,didn't you?

SPEAKER_01 (20:01):
So no, well, what's happened is I've always I've had
always had a studio at home.
So um that's something, andagain, it's at the front of the
house, it's where the kids' bagsget dropped and the shoes get
left, and it's like, oh mum'sgot a cool room in here, so I
could play with her stuff.
So, you know, it's always theTV, if I'm painting at home, the
TV is not important at all,which is crazy because they'll

(20:25):
come and go, What are you doingin here?
And so I mean it's quiteadorable because my kids have
always, you know, if they'll situnderneath my painting table and
you know, just keep me companyor give me advice on what I need
to do.
So I've still got that, but Iyeah, two months ago, um, I've
got a studio in Marrickville,and that's obviously in prep for

(20:45):
for this exhibition because I'veonly got a certain amount of
board space.
And the way that I work is Iwork on look, I start out with a
lot of cat a lot of boards, andthen once they start talking to
me, then I might be working on,you know, five or six at the
same time.

SPEAKER_03 (21:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (21:03):
So it's not that, and obviously I don't have that
that luxury at home to beworking on, you know, large
works all at the same time.
So yeah, so I'm in Merrickvillenow and hopefully this
exhibition goes well and I cankeep the studio and just keep
coming in here every day.

SPEAKER_04 (21:16):
It will.
It will go so well.
And I think like, so are youworking?
So this is um, correct me if I'mwrong, this is for the Brenda
Collaghan Find Arts.
Yeah, that's in August, isn'tit?

SPEAKER_01 (21:29):
Yes, August the 13th, and um yeah, she's based
in Redfern.
So we had that we had a funny itwas a fun I love one thing I
love about just life in generalis that how things just link up.
You just sort of like, ooh, soBrenda, I saw well, I saw her
stand at Sydney Contemporary,and then I started talking to

(21:49):
this gorgeous tall woman who Icould I picked up very quickly.
She had a New Zealand accent,and my husband's from New
Zealand.
And then we started talking, andthen she introduced me to
Brenda.
And randomly, um, the artistGabby decided to take a
photograph of us.
Like then she needed to capturethat moment.
So when I look back, it's likeshe already knew what was about

(22:09):
to happen.
Oh, that's so funny.
I know.
And then so I thought, oh well,go back on the way home to r and
and drop into the gallery.
And Brenda's brother wasstanding in looking after the
the gallery space.
He happened to be seeingsomebody from where my mother
grew up in the country.
And and then I was looking atthe I know, and then I was

(22:30):
looking at the gallery and I waslike, hold on a second.
This is my sister's, she was mysister's got a fashion label.
This is my sister's oldheadporters.

SPEAKER_03 (22:38):
Oh, as if that is all not a sign.

SPEAKER_01 (22:42):
That's hilarious.
I know.
So I was like, hold on a second,within ho just in within a day,
there was such strong, like apathway being being given to me.
It's like, no, no, no, no, no,don't ignore this.
Don't ignore this.
And I had a similar one forSarah too when I started off
with her.
She actually rented out um mystudio space to show gal to show
some collectors' works inSydney.

(23:04):
And then and I didn't, I don'tknow, I think we spoke to each
other and somehow it came backaround and she said, Oh, I
really like your work.
I'd like to represent you.
And the next thing I know, I'mlike, hold on a second, you were
the person back then that rentedthe space, you know.
So it's nice when things likethat happen.
Yeah, I like it when things likethat happen because it just
makes you like, oh, hold on asecond.
Like breadcrumbs.

SPEAKER_04 (23:26):
They're everywhere if you look for them.

SPEAKER_01 (23:28):
Yep.
I totally.
And I love it.
I love it because it just itmakes sense of sometimes the ca
the chaotic world or the un, youknow, the a world that we're in
where you're like trying to makesense of your own creative
headspace, but also the creativeheadspace, a creative world that
you put yourself into as well.
Yeah.
So it's nice when there's a nicelittle connections that make you
feel like, okay, no, no, no, no,it's all making sense.

SPEAKER_04 (23:51):
Yeah, it's all linking up.
And like with this um this showcoming up, are you working
bigger than you usually are?
Because I haven't seen heaps andheaps of like you obviously
don't work as big as me, I don'tthink.

SPEAKER_01 (24:06):
I would happily I would happily do so.
It's more, I think, maybe someof the galleries haven't haven't
been the galleries that I needhad big works for.
And that's the great thing aboutBrenda is I know I can go big.
Like I can go bigger than whatI'm going now.
So I the smallest works, and Ithink there's gonna be about

(24:27):
nine of them, something.
The smallest works will be 50 by50, but then the biggest works,
there's a few of these areprobably maybe 180.

SPEAKER_04 (24:36):
Oh, perfect.
Oh, I'm so excited to see that.

SPEAKER_01 (24:39):
I know I am too, and it's a great space because she's
got super high ceilings becauseit's an old warehouse style um
building, great building.
And um for me to look, I mean,I'm in the studio right now and
to look around there.
They're all talking to eachother and having lots of
conversations, but to put theminto a into a space that they're
gonna have lots of white spacearound them and they're gonna
talk individually, I'm lookingforward to that.

SPEAKER_04 (25:01):
Yeah, and I think for your work, it's kind of
similar with your work.
Uh like my work needs a lot ofspace around it as well.
Because I mean, we're bothdealing with layers, we're both
dealing with texture, we're bothdealing in many ways with
pattern.
And I mean, I think yourcompositions are obviously a lot

(25:22):
different to mine.
They're a lot more structured ina way.
And in actual fact, when youwere talking about photography
before and your parents, whatlanded in me, I was like, that's
really interesting becausephotography, because you know I
majored in photography at NAS.

SPEAKER_01 (25:38):
Oh, I didn't.
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (25:39):
Yeah, so I was the dark room person.
So when people say dark roomphotography, my little my little
sparkly brain just switches backon again.
And it's interesting that you'redealing, I mean, you can explain
a little bit more about yourprocess.
I might get you to do that.
But when I look at your works,it's like there is a definite um

(26:02):
consideration in contrast inyour work, like the shapes and
the way you almost stencilshapes in.
I mean, that's kind of the waythat I perceive light when I'm
photographing something.

SPEAKER_01 (26:18):
Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 (26:19):
I don't know if you make that same connection, but
it was just something thatlanded when you were saying
that.
But maybe talk a little bitabout your process.

SPEAKER_01 (26:27):
Yeah, so I think you uh I mean we work in such
similar ways, but you're you'reexcavating whereas I'm laying on
top.
So um, so and when you talkabout stenciline, there is a lot
of stenciling that goes on.
So funnily enough, a few peoplehave seen my work um and haven't
seen it actually in the flesh,they actually think that I'm
sticking things down onto board,which I don't.

(26:49):
Fascinating.
Okay.
Yeah.
So um, but yeah, when it comesto what I'm doing, I mean I will
I will do sketches, but they'remore they're more sort of a
point of just getting some good,strong compositions down, and
then I might use them to start awork off, but they're not

(27:09):
something that I go back to andand and mimic and go, okay, yep,
no, I've got to put that thereand I've got that there.
So it is very intuitive.
Yeah.
So the way I start is I'll putdown some really strong shapes,
almost stencil-like, and justsee if that composition works.
And if it does, great.
If it doesn't, then I need toshift things again and and layer
and layer and layer.

(27:30):
Um, but it's just look, it'sreally looking at something and
giving it its own breathingspace.
And it and when I get to a pointwhere I've got so many shapes
and outlines and block colourput down, I'll start going,
okay, well, what's not lookinggood, what's not, you know,

(27:51):
matching up well, and just keeplayering on top of it until it I
get it right, basically.
But with doing that, I'm gettingso much more depth.
It's not sort of like all awhole lot of cutouts and then
I'm done.
It's sort of the textures go in,the dots go in, the scraping
goes in, wood burning goes in.
Um, so it becomes a whole workabout not just the composition,

(28:14):
the stencil-like shapes, butokay, there's movements, there's
a rhythm that needs to gothrough the whole work, little
stories.
So it's sort of these reimaginedlandscapes.

SPEAKER_04 (28:24):
They're conversations.
I think that's what I kind ofpick up in your work is that the
various elements that you've gotacross a panel, they all act as
um talking points almost.
And there's a differentconversation that goes that kind
of moves across each panel.
And I found it fascinating thatyou just said then that you're

(28:45):
sitting in your studio andthey're all talking to each
other.
I am genuinely curious to seeyour work in this um space
because I actually haven't beento Brenda's space before.
So I'm really looking forward tocoming and visiting your show.
It's already in the diary.

SPEAKER_05 (29:02):
Oh, cool, awesome.

SPEAKER_04 (29:04):
But is that also like because before I forget,
there's one thing that's on mymind that I've got to ask about.
You got the knee pen hospitalcommission.

SPEAKER_01 (29:13):
Yes.
Yeah.
So I just I like because I knewyou were we were going to talk
today, so I quickly called theum health infrastructure and the
creative creative creativeproducer there to say, can I
talk about it?

SPEAKER_00 (29:24):
Can I talk about it?
So you're the you're the firstperson that I'm talking about.
Goody.

SPEAKER_04 (29:28):
Goody, goody, goody.
Don't worry.
We're gonna we're we're we'regonna promote the socks off this
thing.
I could not be more happy foryou.
Congratulations, those bigtenders are um they're um, you
know, you apply and you applyand you apply, and to get one
that's a complete win.

SPEAKER_01 (29:44):
So Yeah, well, I've never done it before.
This is the only one I've done,and it's the only one that I've
applied was sort of applied for,I guess.
So I it was really interestingbecause I'm so new to this
process.
Um, and it's you know been threeyears and now it's all being put
in now because a completehospital redevelopment, it's a
billion-dollar job situation.
Yeah.

(30:04):
Um and the first the firstbuilding, so stage one and stage
two.
So stage one, uh Nicola Moss,who's with Art House, she did
the internal walls for that one.
Yep.
And for me, I think they startedoff with with putting forward 13
artists, and then there werethree artists, and we all went

(30:25):
in there and talked about whatwe were gonna do.
Um, and then I got it.
So good.
Yeah, and it was nice toobecause I remember going up and
it was nerve-wracking asanything, because I sort of went
up into this room on top of thehospital, and there must have
been oh, maybe 25 people in aroom, but then there was a

(30:45):
massive screen of maybe another20 people.
So, and I'm like, you know, andI just was like, oh, and I was
nervous.

SPEAKER_02 (30:53):
I was nervous, and I was just like, oh, what am I
gonna say?
And everyone's introducingthemselves, yeah, the you know,
the head of the of Indigenousaffairs or their head of brain
surgery or this or that, or thenurses commission, or whatever
it is, and and I was like, thisis nerve-wracking.

SPEAKER_01 (31:08):
Um, I was like, oh, I'm Zoe, I'm the artist.
Um, but what was amazing aboutit is that where I was standing,
I was looking across the viewtowards the Blue Mountains.
And we as children we spentbecause we had a house in
Wetworth Falls um for years fromwhen I was at the house.

SPEAKER_03 (31:27):
Beautiful area.

SPEAKER_01 (31:28):
Love that area.
Yeah.
And then my mum ended up buyinga property in Mount Wilson.
So I've spent a lot of time inthe Blue Mountains, and it was
just so nice to get thiscommission and to be able to
over five floors had these bigworks.
And some of the works are Idon't know the exact
measurements, but some of themare nine metres by maybe five or

(31:50):
six metres.
So that's fantastic.
There's a lot of them, andthey're big, and so and they
gave me certain themes.
So there's, you know, floor andfauna, there's um the valley
earth, there's all thesebeautiful themes that I then had
to work out how to do it.
And I use the same method onlike how I paint.
I had wooden panels, I paintedon them, and then we computer

(32:13):
generated that laid them up onthe computer.
So I had all these differentelements, like 50 different
elements, and I madecompositions on the computer.
So it's very organic and they'reprinted on matte final.

SPEAKER_04 (32:24):
So when you see that process very well because I
thought my husband doesfull-time.
That's so my husband prints andmanufactures exactly that and
then stores exactly that.
So I need to tell you process,but no, tell everyone else.
Tell everyone else.

SPEAKER_01 (32:41):
No, it was it was interesting and it was really
nice because obviously, youknow, there was some sampling,
and then when it came to thesemats, it just it looks great
because you could see the woodtexture.
You can see my little nits thatI've done with the wood burner.
You can like it looks might likemy work blown up to you know 11
meters or whatever it the sizesthat they are.
And it's so yeah, next week I'mactually, I think all the works

(33:02):
will be in and I will see it forthe first time.

SPEAKER_04 (33:05):
Oh, that is so exciting.
You need to make sure that youcelebrate this win, don't just
move through it.
Sometimes I think when weaccomplish these big things,
we're so quick to kind of keepmoving on to the next thing.
But make sure you take some timefor yourself to really um really
reflect on this win because youknow, you never know where these

(33:25):
opportunities are gonna lead to.
And I think um with a lot ofthese big tenders, you know, you
get one that looks very good ona CV, it gives you more
potential to get another one.

SPEAKER_01 (33:35):
So and now that I feel like I've I've because it
was the only one I've done, it'sreally been fantastic to learn
so much in how to go from anidea to from some sketches or
from some examples to actuallydoing it.
And it's been um, yeah, it'sbeen rewarding.

(33:56):
And also the the you know, thepeople at health infrastructure
and the architects, they werejust amazing.
They were really so it was beenreally, really lovely,
supportive little little group.
And it's just yeah, it's nice.
And if, you know, it sounds abit of a downer, but um, he's
all totally fine now.
But my husband went throughcancer two years ago.
So be able to well, he's he'sthank you, he's totally, you

(34:18):
know, over it now and he'shealthy now, but just going
through spending so much time inhospitals and you know, uh
people will say, you know, thenurses and how many people are
there for you?
And you're thinking, okay, well,this is such a responsibility
and a legacy piece for me to dothis, to know that I want to
make those nurses who are havingextremely long hours feel some

(34:41):
sort of serenity.
I want those people going intohospitals to have a level of
escapism when they see my work.
And and because they are suchlarge works, I really do hope
there's there's the littlemoments where they're like, oh,
okay, I've just forgotten whyI'm here.

SPEAKER_04 (34:55):
Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 (34:57):
It's special, it's even more special for that
reason.

SPEAKER_04 (35:00):
And I think as well, like, you know, there's so much
science now in the zeitgeist tospeak to the importance of art
and how it neurologicallyliterally changes our brains
when we're around art.
And I mean, there's so many ofthese hospital projects, there's
um, there's so manyredevelopments.

(35:21):
So I think there's a lot ofopportunity for artists out
there, and you know, we've allgot to just dig deep and keep
applying for these things, andum, yeah, but you got the
opportunity, and I cannot waitto see the photos.

SPEAKER_01 (35:36):
Yeah, I can't wait to see it.
I'm just yeah, it's gonna be andit's it's it's also I love
Nicola's work and I have for awhile.
Um, and she does like I layerwith paint, she layers with um
hand painted um paper.
So it's really nice that th eventhough they're in separate
buildings, it the works speak toeach other to for more of a

(35:56):
unified um output for you knowfor for one building to the
next.
So it's um yeah, it feels nice.
It feels nice and it's it'syeah.
So next week we'll go and checkit out and see what it looks
like, and I'll probably be like,Whoo, that's a big one.
And I think it'll also expi itinspire me to just work bigger
and bigger and bigger,hopefully.

SPEAKER_04 (36:16):
Uh well, I tell you what, what I might have to do, I
might have to uh get a wiggleon, and what I'll do is I'll
edit this one quick and I'll getit out, and then you can tag me
in the photos and we'll put yourinterview up so that we can
cross-link everything for theconversation.
So that'll be good.

SPEAKER_05 (36:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (36:32):
And um, yeah, like I I think as well, you've you've
obviously developed this ongoingrhythm for yourself now within
your creative practice.
And I'm curious to know becauseyou're actually one of my
beautiful friends did one ofyour workshops up in Brisbane.

(36:54):
So you're flying interstate todo workshops as well.
So you're super busy at themoment.

SPEAKER_05 (36:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (37:00):
How did all of that come about?
How are you finding all of that?
I'm trying to think how it cameabout.

SPEAKER_01 (37:05):
I I got asked by the Grampians brushes, which they um
it's um, they do them threetimes a week.
They do a summer brushes andthen a textile one and then one
in September.
And they the I the the woman whowas running that had asked me,
and just again, I think husband,life, whatever it was.

(37:26):
Oh, and we're renovating thewhole house in the middle of
that as well.
So I had to put that on hold.
And then when the time wasright, she's like, Well, how
about you come down toSeptember?
And I think that jump startedthat was two years ago or
whatever that was, and that jumpstarted, was like, okay, well,
this is a hefty six days ofteaching.
Um, if I can do this, two dayswill be a breeze.

(37:47):
Um, and it was amazing becauseyou go down there and there's
20, there's probably about 25,30 other tutors.
So for us as teachers, we'relearning as well because we've
got artists from all differentlevels of, you know, we've got
Archibald finalists, we've gotthis, we've got, we've got all
these people, people who travelaround the world with their the

(38:07):
art.
And so you teach during the dayand then you all get together at
night and you sort of, you know,you're a bouncing ideas off each
other.
So it's like a residency.

SPEAKER_04 (38:16):
Sounds like a residency.

SPEAKER_01 (38:17):
Yeah, probably, yeah, yeah, probably.
So I've only done I've only doneone residency, I think, but that
was a solo situation.
I wasn't around other people.
So um I haven't experienced thatyet.
So um, yeah, so that startedthat off, and then I think
companies have just started, uh,you know, art centres have just

(38:38):
started, or companies who to dothis sort of thing have just
asked me to to do a weekendworkshop.
So I just did Melbourne lastweekend.
I am having a couple of monthsoff.
I'll do um Bien Artie inBrisbane and then I'm going to
Western Australia for one.
I'll do one in Sydney.
So it's a really nice way for meto tap out of motherhood for a

(39:01):
weekend.
Yeah.
Um go, yeah, hubby, you do it.
Um, but also I think it's alsoit's it's interesting,
especially with this exhibition,that for me to go off and
problem solve very quickly forother people within two days,
and then come back to my ownwork as well.
With it kind of freshens me up abit.

(39:21):
Um so yeah, and I I enjoy itbecause it's as you know, and
all artists know, you spend alot of time on your own, and it
is really nice to be in a roommost of mostly women, and
there's that community feel, andyou're all patting each other on
the back and you're going, no,that's great, and things that
you can't see someone else cansee, and it's this really nice,

(39:43):
sort of really supportiveenvironment.
Um and I like it, and I like thefact that I can dip in and be
super social for that, you know,three three days or whatever it
is, and come back and be anintrovert.

SPEAKER_04 (39:56):
I think it's interesting, actually.
Like, I've been navigating alittle bit of this myself
because I obviously just cameback from the corridor project
residency.
It was a couple of weeks backnow.
I'm gonna do a I'm gonna do anepisode on like the follow-up
and reflection on that.
So I won't get too much into it.
But the thing that was reallyinteresting to me is like I I

(40:19):
don't think I've stopped in thestudio for probably oh, I'm
gonna say over two, like haven'treally had a holiday or you
know, even longer than two daysout of the studio.
It's just been constant for me.
And so for me to actually makework not in the studio, I didn't
realize how much of a differenceit would make.

(40:41):
And then I've just so I'vegotten back.
The timing for everything withwith me was really interesting
because I finished those twoworks for the US.
They got shipped off like justafter I kind of got back from
the residency.
And now for the first time, Ihave this clear studio space
with all of this inspirationthat I've picked up and the
feedback from the other artists,and then we had an amazing crit

(41:05):
session with Lucy Stranger.
Um there were so many amazingthings that happen.
And so I kind of had to getback, park all of those ideas
until this US work was done.
And now, now that that's done,I've literally come in here
today for the first time to ablank studio.
Like all the panels on my wallsare fresh panels, so I'm like

(41:28):
quite literally exploded when Igot in here today.
Yeah, and I'm approaching thingsso differently.

SPEAKER_01 (41:36):
Okay, but it's different.
What's the main thing that'sdifferent?

SPEAKER_04 (41:41):
So instead of being a little bit more structured to
my composition, so with the theexcavated landscapes, I
structure them like because thebones of the landscape are kind
of the most important, I have tothink backwards from most
artists.
So when most artists arebuilding up in order to resolve,
my first layers are moreimportant.

(42:01):
And so do you take photos?

SPEAKER_01 (42:04):
Or do you just remember?

SPEAKER_04 (42:06):
No, no, I do take photos, but it's interesting.
So I actually start from reallyabstract, um, like walking
drawings and plain egg washsketches and little thumbnail
studies that I would normallydo.
And that just helps me thinkabout the environment in a more
like in a less literal way,because colour is something that

(42:29):
actually begins the process forme.
Like I'll see a combination ofcolours and I'll go, oh, those
colours are going to be layered.
When it comes to the compositionitself, there'll be kind of
elements from the abstractdrawings that I almost piece
together.
I'll use some photos and thensometimes I'll pull things in to

(42:50):
like procreate and layer things,but usually not.
Like it's usually a combinationbetween sketches on site and
images and somehow they all cometogether.
But with this work that I'vejust attacked today, so I
essentially, when I went to theCorridor project, I produced all

(43:10):
of these small works on paper.
There's something reallyimmediate about them that I
really like, and that immediacygets lost in all the layering
and the excavating.
And I've been trying to find away, I'm talking years now, to
figure out this balancing pointas to how I can get still the

(43:32):
structure with the excavatedlandscapes alongside a bit more
of an abstract approach.

SPEAKER_01 (43:37):
And it would be harder for you too, because for
me, if I'm not not sure if I'msuccessful or not, but if I need
that freshen to come on, I canjust do a wash over the whole
thing.
Or I can do, you know, big brushstrokes that are loose and this
and that.
Whereas all your stuff has beenit's underneath the surface.
Yeah, first of all, said, Yeah,it's difficult.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (43:56):
And so what I did today was I just came in and I
kind of thought.
But you know, I've got onedrawing that there's something
about it that I just reallylike.
And I thought, you know what?
I'm just gonna block in someshapes first.
I'm not even gonna think, I'mnot gonna plan.
I'm just gonna block in someshapes.
I'm gonna work really abstract,like what I did on these um
works on paper.

(44:17):
And there's some key elements onthis work on paper that are
clearly the structures of treesand rock formations.
And I thought to myself, well,what if what if the background
was actually more abstract andless kind of layered?
And then it was just the treesthat were kind of blocked up.
So I'm I'm playing around withhow I can kind of move things

(44:41):
forwards and backwards, but notdo the whole thing as excavated.
Anyway, this is me just thinkingwe've No, but that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01 (44:49):
I feel like that's what we all do as artists.
We sort of get to a point like,okay, it could be subtle changes
and we don't realize it, or wehave to be really mindful of
some big changes we want to makeso we can push ourselves into a
different sort of dimension.
It's it's yeah, we're constantlyteaching ourselves um on how to
do things that are new and anddifferent.
And so we do feel like I feellike we're artists are a little

(45:10):
bit like octopuses, likeoctopiers.
Oh, sorry.
We are, which are thesecreatures where if we can we
know how to open the jar andwe've done it 10 times, we're
like, okay, well, how do how canwe do something different now?

SPEAKER_02 (45:19):
How do we, how do we, you know, turn the jar
upside down and put some painton it and make it a bit more
difficult for ourselves?

SPEAKER_04 (45:26):
Well, that's it.
And I think like there's alwayslike a key thing, I think, that
we all have that we're chewingon that we're like for me, the
one thing in my work that I'vealways battled with, and I know
I've had conversations with thegirls at curatorial, and it's
like finding a balance betweenhaving a lot of movement and a

(45:47):
lot going on and areas in orderto rest.
So inevitably, what happens whenI excavate is I get a little bit
sander happy, and I will justkeep excavating and excavating.

SPEAKER_01 (45:59):
But can you not put the surface back on top?

SPEAKER_04 (46:02):
Yes, well, that's what I that's what I've been
starting to do.
I've been starting to kind ofblock things over the top, which
feels really foreign to me, butit's like I can just I've got
this like gut feeling that thisnew kind of method that I'm
testing out with these few newpanels, because I'm starting

(46:23):
differently, it's like it'sbroken this um, this rigidity or
this box that I've kind of putmyself in.
And it's like, okay, well, I'mjust gonna break this box, I'm
gonna start completelydifferently, and I'm gonna see
where this leads.
So I'm not and I'm because I'mlike, yes, there's always people
waiting for work and things likethat.

(46:45):
But I'm like, in my head, I'mgiving myself a couple of months
now to experiment.

SPEAKER_01 (46:51):
I think that's important.
I think you do have to honor,honor your time in the way that
you feel like it's necessary andjust see what happens.
But I feel like the last twoworks, well, the word, I don't
know how many works you sent toSeattle, but those works seemed
a little bit different too.

SPEAKER_04 (47:04):
Yeah, they were.
They I've been slowly nudgingmyself further and further
outside the box and testing newthings as I go, but it's a
balancing app because I mean thegalleries know your previous
work, and so in the back of myhead, I'm like, they're
expecting this.
I can't just throw the baby outwith the bath water and do

(47:25):
something completely different.

SPEAKER_01 (47:26):
No, no, no.
And you can, you can reallystuff yourself up because you
can go, oh, well, that works.
Like literally the work I'mlooking at right now.
Um, and it's it's I shouldn'thave done this, but I know the
work will be fine once, but it'srequiring a lot more work than
what I thought.
I basically almost mimics on thefirst, very first layer a the
Hawkesbury art prize finalistpiece I put into it.

(47:47):
And I just know that I've I'vealways liked it, and it was
something, you know, I was like,okay, well, like it got into it
into an art prize, so thereforesomeone liked it there too.
But I've just I've already givenmyself a preconceived idea of
how it should end up, and nowI'm like, oh, now I've just got
to ruin that and start fresh andgive it its its own journey and
its own personality and it's youknow, and not yeah, and I think

(48:10):
it's important as artists thatwe have that courage to do that
because we can get caught up inlike, oh well, you know, they
know that work and they likethat work, and I've got to try
to keep on that that vein ofthings, but sometimes the beauty
is in the change.

SPEAKER_04 (48:24):
That's it.
And I think as well, when you'rewith a good gallery that allows
you to have flexibility, likeI'll just speak directly to the
girls at curatorial, you know.
I've had stages over the lastfour years that I've pivoted and
I've needed to get something outof my system, and you know,
probably it hasn't worked, ithasn't been successful, only to

(48:46):
come back to what I'm reallydoing now and getting that
stronger.
And so I think artists need tobe allowed to make, you know,
tragic mistakes at times.
And it's like I'm, you know,it's always this balance
between, you know, structuring,you know, your practice and

(49:06):
having enough spontaneity, whichis giving you um flexibility to
shift where you need to.
And I think, I think, you know,that's what the the residency
and that's what these littleworks on paper, you know, have
really done.
It's actually Phoebe Stone whosaid to me, like, we were doing

(49:26):
a crit session with uh LucyStranger that was amazing.
And, you know, she, I don'tthink she's very familiar with
all my previous work, but um,she's quite an intuitive being,
young Phoebe Stone.
And um, she said, you know,you're you're excavating.
It's it has, it's always been away of me excavating and kind of

(49:49):
working on myself, my internalworld.
Okay.
And so it's like this constant,incessant need to grow and get
better, and what else can I getout of this?
And it's like that sharkmentality, that constant need to
get further and further andfurther.

SPEAKER_01 (50:04):
So are you are you looking for, is there is it are
you doing it in in the sensethat you're like you're looking
for that aha moment?

SPEAKER_04 (50:11):
I'm looking for a feeling.
So I'm looking for this samefeeling that I got with one of
uh like it's a whole story.
We I could go into like a wholewhole podcast on the initial
story, but essentially, youknow, one of the first l
landscapes that I ever painted,it just gave me this feeling of

(50:32):
like, oh, I can't even explain.
I can't, it was like thisineffable feeling.
And I know when my works hitthat because I get it again.
So I know the works that are on,I know the works that are really
successful.
So these two works for Seattle,I got that feeling.

SPEAKER_01 (50:49):
And I was No, and it was obvious that you did.
They were really strong works.

SPEAKER_04 (50:53):
That I feel I I and it's like I'm gonna say it, I
think they're brilliant works.
Yeah.
And it's like that I can'talways say that about all my
paintings, but I am genuinelyproud of those two works.
And I think, you know, it'salmost like this feeling of deja
vu.
And I don't know whether you getthis, but when I hit a point of

(51:14):
getting to exactly what I'mintending on digging for, it's
almost like the works drop intome like I've painted them in the
future.
And I'm like, oh, well, duh.
Like, of course, like it's areally bizarre feeling, and I
can't, I can't put my finger onit, but it's a see, I think I
might get it differently.

SPEAKER_01 (51:32):
Yeah, I think I get it differently in the sense that
I'll have a number of works andthey just won't work, and I'll
keep painting and painting andpainting and painting.
I'm like, no, we need to getthis going.
But then there'll be somethingelse that the first layer, there
was something about it.
I'm like, no, no, no, I'm justgonna leave you alone for like
three or four weeks, and then Icome back to it, and you're
like, wow, yeah, we hadsomething that was good from the

(51:56):
get-go, and now I know what todo with you, but I gave you the
space that you needed.
Now I'm and it's this greatfeeling of like, yeah, yeah,
okay.
I gave you, I gave you space, Igave myself space, and I just it
just works.
And you're like, Yes, okay.
Why can't that happen with allof them?
But I think the struggle, I alsolike the struggle.

(52:16):
I like the work, I like, I likethe problem solving, but gosh,
it's good when they just theywork quickly, and you're like,
okay, now I can just subtly goin and and fix the textures and
the areas and then maybe thecolours, but it's not, it's just
you're working so much quickerthan the other ones.

SPEAKER_04 (52:33):
Yeah, it's isn't it interesting how they all are so
different?
It's like they do, and they'vegot their own little
personalities about them.
And you know the ones that ityou're battling with, and it's
like, you know, and you justgotta, you gotta force yourself
to turn them against the walland not freaking touch them for
a period of time.

SPEAKER_03 (52:54):
Yeah, that's exactly what you just explained.

SPEAKER_01 (52:56):
Well, yeah, and I don't normally do that, I gotta
say.
Like, I I think I was listeningto you, I was I put one of your
podcasts on yesterday and youwere talking to um Tala, Tyla
Brookman.
Oh, Talia Brookman.
Yeah, that was a good one.
And I think you said somethingalong the lines of um you would
go in and then the next dayyou're like, oh God, what am I

(53:17):
doing?
Like, where am I going?
Whereas I do the reverse.
I will literally ruin a paintingjust before bedtime.
And I sometimes paint till twoo'clock in the morning,
especially if I've got a studioat home, which is great because
I've got it here.
I don't, I'm here as soon as Idrop the kids off, and you know,
I'll be home at like sixo'clock.
So, but there I will paint fromeight till two o'clock in the
morning most nights.

(53:38):
And it's that tiredness, it'snot working.
And I will literally get,especially if it's a big
painting, like a hundred andfifty by 120 or something, I
will get a big brush and I willpaint a blue, dark blue wash
over the whole thing.
I'm like, I've ruined it.
So when I go in tomorrow, theonly thing I can do now is fix
it.

SPEAKER_04 (53:56):
That's really interesting because that's the
exact way that I attack my myworks on paper, and that is the
exact thing.
That is the exact release I'mtrying to get into my bigger
work.
So see, we were supposed to havethis conversation today.

SPEAKER_02 (54:14):
But I also, it's funny though, too, because I'll
be just like I will literally goto bed and you know, husband
will always say, like, what timeis it?

SPEAKER_01 (54:20):
Why didn't you get to bed early?
And I was like, Oh, anyway, butit was all that frustration that
pent up stuff that it justwasn't working.
I'll paint the whole thing off.
And then I'll go down in themorning and I'll be like,
actually, it's not as bad as Ithought.
And there's things that I canwork with.
So that's why I like these happymistakes, is because it they are
mistakes and I need to fix them,but they've given me direction.

SPEAKER_04 (54:41):
Yeah, it's really interesting.
I was actually having a verysimilar conversation with some
of my high school schoolstudents.
So I'm teaching this wonderfulgroup of high school students at
my old high school, and they'rehigh potential gifted education
students.
So they're they're the onesthat, you know, have a bit of a
knack for art.
And so, um, you know, it'sreally interesting how our

(55:03):
school system, it it what itdoes is it teaches kids how to
tighten up.
It teaches them how to sit in avery specific box and only focus
on the end result.
And so I'm coming in and I'mfreaking shaking them up.
I'm getting them to butchertheir work.
I'm getting like they like theywill cringe when I come and

(55:23):
stand behind them.
Because I'm like, what if youtry this?

SPEAKER_01 (55:26):
Well, no, well, I'm like that when I teach too.
I remove works from people if Isee them looking and thinking
too hard.
That's it.
But it's upside down.
Yeah.
And I it's a good thing with artin schools because they need
that release.
They don't, it's not anotherclass that need to do sort of,
you know, cookie-cuttingsituation.
It's they need to they need tohave a release.

(55:48):
They need that sort of like, oh,well, I can just be me.
And if this is because art istherapy, and I think it can be
frustrating, it can be amazing,but but it is a place of
escapism.
And I feel like in schools theyneed to introduce that a whole
lot more.

SPEAKER_04 (56:03):
It's what I've been saying.
I have been, I feel like I amlike a broken record speaking to
schools about the importance ofart as a place of safety.
They're all about well-being andstuff these days.
And it's like all I do is talkabout the mental health
benefits, and it's sointeresting because, like, for
example, it it is hard, I willsay, I'll be really honest.

(56:26):
It's really hard to get kidsengaged in process because they
want a quick fix, they want anend result, particularly in
nature.
That's human nature.
But where the interesting thingthat happens is it's like when
I'm when I'm sitting and I'mlooking at them and I'm watching
how they approach things, I'mnot looking for their skill at

(56:47):
all.
I'm looking for their uniquemark.
And the thing is that they don'tknow what their unique mark is.
So I'll give you a practicalexample.
One student, he, I could justtell, you know, he when I had
this conversation with him, hewas telling me, he said, I don't
really know much about art.
Like, I'm not really thatinterested in that.
Like he didn't really know whyhe was there.

(57:09):
And I said, let's just, let'sjust set a stopwatch.
And I said, I want you to pullout something that interests
you.
We're just gonna draw, we'regonna put a stopwatch on, we're
gonna do 10 minutes.
I said, I want you to fill thistable with drawings, and then
we're gonna look at them andwe're gonna discuss them.
So he was just moving, andbecause I put him on the
stopwatch, he didn't have timeto think, right?
And we looked at this table andhe'd drawn all these animals.

(57:31):
And his mark, I kid you not, itwas so fluid, it was so quick.
And I said, This, I said, Thisis your gift.
I said, This is not about yousitting and thinking about what
the perfect animals are.
I said, This is what we're gonnado for this entire term.
We're gonna focus on quick markmaking sketches.

(57:51):
And I just saw, I saw thislittle thing go off in his head
that just went, oh, I'm allowedto have fun.
I'm allowed to, you know, nottake things so seriously.
And it's like I'm constantlysaying to kids, start, it's just
art.
Have some fun.
It's just pee, cut.

SPEAKER_01 (58:12):
No, but it's yeah, and this is and unfortunately
it's not just kids, it's adultstoo.
So I do a very similar when I dothe first, very first exercise
when I teach, it's literallyjust making marks.

unknown (58:22):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (58:22):
Like literally just making marks.
And again, like you said, I cansee their personality.
So I can see whether somebodyhere's because they'll come and
they'll tell me, Oh, no, I'm anaccountant, I do everything very
tight.
And then the next thing you'relooking at your page, their
page, and they're loosening upand they're drawing from one
side of the page to the otherrather than doing in tight
little boxes, or you know, soI'm just like, no, no, no, no,
no.
It's all in there.
Like you know your your the theway you're making these marks is

(58:46):
telling you, you know, what youneed, but also it's giving me an
idea of your, you know, yourpersonality when it comes to art
as well.
And it it is interesting becauseeverything does does come down
to a mark.
It starts with a mark, likethat's where it starts.
And I think back in the day, youknow, I mean, I'm 50, so it's a
bit different.
But I remember, you know, you'dhave your mum on the phone,
she'd be talking to friends, andthen there'd always be like a

(59:07):
notepad by the phone, andthere'd always be doodles on
there, and there'd always belike some sort of patterns or
circles or this or that, whichwe don't do now because
everything's that is exactlyright.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
It's um yeah, and someonereminded me of that on the
weekend, and I was just like,wow, we we always had pens in
our hands.
So we were always making marksand we're doing this, and we
don't do that now.

(59:28):
And you know, people'shandwriting was a personality,
and you know, even theirsignatures told you a lot about
them, you know.
So yeah, it is interesting thatthese kids they don't have that.
They don't do that, you know.
Yeah, they're writing.
Yeah, they're writing, andthey've got to get the it's all
got to be legible, but when itcomes to using that tool to show
expression, it's not reallyhappening as much.

SPEAKER_04 (59:51):
And I think this is the thing.
I think um one of the things wehave to remind ourselves is
that, you know, sometimes it'snot about you d it doesn't have
to be a tedious process.
I think sometimes we we getourselves in a state where we do
start um tightening up andtaking things too seriously, or

(01:00:12):
you know, and it's like art isnot a serious pursuit, you know,
it is fun at the end of the day.
This is how we were born intothis world as creative beings.
And it's like the the more thatwe can keep keep that part very
loose.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:29):
I agree, I agree, and I think also there's so many
people that get, you know, itcan be intimidating walking into
galleries.
And that's one thing I do likeabout Brenda is that she's she's
just she's one of these angelichumans, she's just lovely, she's
just lovely, and I think that'swhy I was like, yeah, okay, I
want to show here, and alsobecause of the person she is.
Um, but you go into galleriesand you can feel like, oh, am I

(01:00:52):
what am I meant to know before Iwalk into this space?
And for me personally, um Idon't I'm recreating landscapes,
so there's no place that youneed to know about.
You just go in there, and if itcan remind you of something or
it can trigger a childhoodmemory or this and that, but it
really is just a emotionalreaction, uh, whether you like

(01:01:16):
it or you don't like it,whatever it is.
But it's yeah, again, it's notthat serious.
It's it really isn't.
It's not this sort of you don'tI don't need to write a thesis
on my artwork.
It's it's my interpretation andme hoping hope um hopefully
taking the viewer onto a bit ofa journey.
And that's it's not ascomplicated as I think it you
know people think it is.

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:38):
So I think it's important that people just, you
know, enjoy it for a enjoy itbecause you like the colour.
Or don't enjoy it because it'sit doesn't it, yeah, you don't
need to know about it.
It's just I I saw somewhere,which no one does, I saw
somewhere that you should reallygive artwork at least 15
minutes, which is a really longtime.

(01:01:59):
But I do find that the more Ikeep looking at my same work, I
find new things in it and I finda new story in it.
So I think we're so used tothose quick reactions and we get
need to get the knowledge out ofit quickly.
And I'm just not sure if that'sserving us all too well.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:13):
Yeah, well, this is and I mean, this is exactly why
I make the kind of works that Imake, because I never, ever,
ever want to make a work thatsomeone can digest in one go.
I want to make work that forcespeople to come back and come
back and come back and comeback.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:31):
Well, also because even with you, with the people
we fascinated with the techniquethat you do, and then there are
people that will remind them ofgemstones that they might have
had as a child that they wereholding on.
Or there's so many differentthings that it can access, you
know, the thought and and themeaning behind it for them.
So um I think art is a greatthing to it's it's a it's a gr

(01:02:53):
great way that we all need tosort of just enjoy it so much
more.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
And on that note, I want to askyou one final question because
I'm really mindful of your time.
And the question I wanted to askis what is the one
non-negotiable on your practicethat keeps everything on track?

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:19):
Uh I would say that I don't go too many days without
doing art.
Yeah.
So yeah, so and I think it'sit's obvious when my mood starts
changing quite significantly, Ithink.
Um and look, I think I get I getif there's two days that I
haven't painted, I'm prettyitchy.

(01:03:41):
So yeah, so that's thenon-negotiable.
It's just like, no, no, no, no.
If I'm if I'm doing this and andI'm doing it and my mood is
changing, then my happiness,then my presence in my family,
you know, in the family home orwith other people, or how I
interact.
Like if I'm not filling my cupup, and this is my cup.
So, you know, some people mightgo to the gym, some people might

(01:04:02):
you know go and get their hairdone, some people might read a
book, but this is my thing.
And um that quiet time and thattime I can I can be an introvert
and just connect with mypaintings means that I'm a
better person on the outside ofthat.

SPEAKER_04 (01:04:18):
That's essentially absolutely, absolutely.
I think we are very, verysimilar in that way.
I took my first full weekend outof the studio and two days, I
realized that's the first timein over, well and truly over 12
months that I've taken two daysoff in a row.
And and it was like I got inhere today and oh man, was I

(01:04:40):
ready to pick up a paintbrush.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:42):
How good is I know, how good is it though we've got
that?
Like we've got something thatwe're so driven to, you know,
get a paintbrush or for you toget onto the tools or whatever
it is, that it's like, no,that's our happy place, and
we've found it.
Because people I feel sad foryou know that people haven't
found that place, and then oncethey do, and that's one thing
that I love about teaching isthat there are a lot of women

(01:05:04):
who either they've been artteachers or they've you know had
all the different types of jobs,but this has been something that
they've always been interestedin, and now they are some of
them are retired, they have gotmore space, and they don't want
to stop doing, and they're goingstraight back into it because
they realize how nourishing itis for them.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:25):
So we get to do it every day.
Like we're winning at life.

SPEAKER_04 (01:05:28):
What a gift.
What a gift.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:30):
I know, it's good.

SPEAKER_04 (01:05:31):
And on that note, I just wanted to thank you so much
for your time.
I cannot wait for your show.
We'll put all of the the linksin the show notes and um
definitely send me.
Oh, you gotta send me a niceheadshot.
That's the one thing I forgot toask for.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:45):
Okay, we'll do.

SPEAKER_04 (01:05:46):
Um I'll do like a nice intro and all of that for
you.
But let me know any key thingsyou want me to put in the show
notes, and we will tag all ofthose people in the post and all
of that sort of stuff.
But this was a Such a good,well-rounded conversation.
I just enjoy listening back tothis.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:04):
It was.
It was thank you.
Well, thank you for asking me.
It was it's really nice.
I'm actually um talking thisSunday at um SH Urban Gallery in
it.
So this is a really nice way toshake off a few nerves.
Yeah.
Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:20):
You need to.
I'm so sorry.
I forgot.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:23):
It's just really, I just wanted to say thank you
because you've you know, you'veprobably you know not shaking
out all the nerves.
Yeah, you are.
It's good.

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:30):
That's okay.
I just hope that they've got areally, really, really talkative
person like me that just rollsthe conversation.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:37):
I know you're very good at it.
You should, yeah.
I mean, uh unfortunately you'vegot to paint, but if you did
this full time, you'd make youknow, it'd be a great career.

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:44):
Oh gosh, I love having these conversations.
No, I just love making newfriends.
Like, I think that's the thingthat I get out of like, you
know, going to all the shows andjust keeping the communication
open with um like-minded people.
And I think at the end of theday, this is what this podcast
is all about.
It's just, you know, the mostauthentic version of the

(01:07:05):
creative life.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:06):
And oh, and I think also the fact that you're
promoting so much positivity,but also a sense of community is
really lovely because you know,that's one thing I did like
about when Instagram came about,is that there's some artists
that you've never met, butyou're like you've got a bit of
a dialogue going on and you'repatting each other on the back,
and it's just like, yeah, okay,we need that on the days where
we're feeling a bit lonely.

(01:07:26):
So thank you.

SPEAKER_04 (01:07:28):
And I would love to think that, you know, like I do
often think, like, I do havevery strong values that I live
my life by.
And you know, if that's one ofthe things that I want people to
feel is that, you know, kindnessis a really big value of mine.
And I do genuinely lovecelebrating other people, and I

(01:07:49):
just think that the more that wecan do that and support each
other, the further ahead we canall get.
And I just think that there's nopoint um putting various artists
up on pedestals.
I just don't think that there'sit's necessary.
I think at the end of the day,none of us have a clue what
we're freaking doing.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:08):
We're all figuring it out.
And we're all doing verydifferent things from each
other, so it's just really it'sreally lovely to go, oh okay,
you know, uh and you've saidthat you know, with the tender
side side of things, I don't Ifeel like I'm new to that game.
So everyone's got someinformation to share, and we're
all making such different artfrom each other.
So we might as well find friendsin this crazy world.

SPEAKER_04 (01:08:31):
Absolutely, 100%.
So you have a good day ofpainting.
I'm gonna I'm gonna go and nowI'm feeling super motivated to
just detect this panel to bigones.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:42):
Well, can you do me a favor?
Can you film the start of these?
Yep, I will so we can all seeit?
Great.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:47):
Okay, I will.
I'll film it, I'll put it up asa reel.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:50):
Good.
Please do, please do, because Ido like watching your rules.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:54):
Accountability, accountability.
You'll know which one it isbecause it's starting very
different to usual.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:00):
Good, no good.
No, but it's nice also foreveryone to see that that you
know you're trying somethingnew.

SPEAKER_04 (01:09:06):
Yeah, yeah.
And if you're one of mygalleries out there, don't
panic.
It's okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:11):
No, they're gonna be excited.
No, they're gonna be excited tosee what happens.

SPEAKER_04 (01:09:16):
No, but it's just a starting point.
Like, this is the thing.
I just wanted to start itdifferently.
I'm still gonna excavate andstuff.
I can still see what I want todo, but yeah, I just needed that
freedom to start differently.
Anyway.
Yeah, yeah.
You have a happy painting day.
I can't wait to see your show.
It's already in the diary, so Iwill be there.

(01:09:36):
Oh, okay.
And um, yeah, we'll we'll chatsoon.
Have a good one.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:40):
Amazing.
Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_04 (01:09:42):
No worries.
My pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:44):
See you back.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:46):
Bye.