March 25, 2025 • 25 mins
In this episode of Day24, host Eric Thrailkill welcomes Jennifer Sargent, CEO of Pacify, captured at ViVE in Nashville in February 2025.
Jennifer shares insights into the integration of technology and human-driven services, emphasizing Pacify's commitment to enhancing women's health and parental support. Discussing the intersection of technology with healthcare, Jennifer notes, "To really drive care meaningfully, you have to have both technology and people together. That's what really makes the impact."
The discussion covers her journey through the healthcare industry, her transition to Pacify, and the significant role of technology in advancing primary care and maternal support. She elaborates on the evolution of doula services, stating, "As Medicaid, as a leader and innovator in doula access... started requiring reimbursement for doula services, that really started to change the landscape of doula care."
Jennifer also touches on the challenges and opportunities within the doula and lactation consulting sectors, highlighting how Pacify's model supports both service providers and clients by merging technology with personalized care, ultimately striving to enhance the maternal experience and reduce healthcare disparities.
Please be sure to rate and review Day24: Where Healthcare Meets Exponential Innovation wherever you received your podcasts!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric Thrailkill (01:46):
Jennifer, thanks for joining.
Jennifer Sargent (01:48):
Thanks for having me.
Eric Thrailkill (01:48):
We are here at five on day three or four, if
you count.
Sunday a little overnight.
Snow has impacted the event alittle bit, but gimme your
perspective and maybeobservations of of the event
this year in Nashville.
Jennifer Sargent (02:02):
Yeah, it's been really great to I think
listen to folks talk abouttechnology and how they're
thinking about the intersectionof technology very related
relatable for pacify as we'rethinking about the integration
of.
The intersection of technologyand our, services driven by
people, and how do you bringthose two things together.
And so I really enjoyed kind ofhearing about other industries,
(02:23):
primary care, et cetera, and howthey're thinking about those
things together,
Eric Thrailkill (02:26):
the segments.
Have you been around and justobserved the various stages?
And also I need to ask you, haveyou had a chance to explore
Nashville outside of the MusicCity Center?
Jennifer Sargent (02:37):
Not much.
I did have a great dinner lastnight as a Minnesotan enjoyed
the snow, but
Eric Thrailkill (02:41):
yeah.
That's fantastic.
Let's start with a little bit ofyour background and a golden
gopher, as you mentioned, fromMinnesota with your MBA and then
onto your professional careerand maybe take us through Vera
Home Health.
Jennifer Sargent (02:54):
Yeah.
Great.
Go Health.
Yeah, so I have been inhealthcare my entire career.
Fell into it by way of youngpeople, often do in industries
and really have been dedicatedto staying in it.
'cause it was important to me tobe in a space where I could make
a positive impact on society andpeople at large.
And
good for you.
There's,
there's never a shortage of, problems to solve
(03:16):
in healthcare.
That's true.
So that's a great place to be.
As I came up in my career I haveactually had the opportunity to
be at an organization that wasall a people driven business.
It was called plus one healthmanagement.
Okay.
And did onsite fitness centermanagement Okay.
For corporations in Minnesota.
We were actually based in NewYork.
Okay.
But then we got acquired byUnited Health Group.
So made my way back with that.
(03:37):
And with that took a new role inOptum.
And that was really at the timewhen it was.
All technology.
It was, big wellness portals,like we're gonna put technology
out there to solve all theproblems.
And in that sort of space,that's when it became apparent
to me that I think to reallydrive care meaningfully, you
have to have both technology.
And people together.
(03:57):
And that's what really makes theimpact.
Eric Thrailkill (03:59):
The tech will never replace the human element
that exactly is necessary,whether that's health and
prevention and fitness orhealthcare as we know it.
Jennifer Sargent (04:07):
Exactly.
So that led me to theopportunity at Vera Whole
Health, which was an advancedprimary care organization that
was using technology alongsideprimary care clinics to really
manage population and.
Primarily the commercial spaceand was at that organization
through the pandemic.
Okay.
And I think the pandemic taughtall of us a lot about how to use
(04:30):
technology and the role ofvirtual that it can play, that
it can be impactful in certainsituations.
And helped us evolve how wethought about technology with
care delivery from a primarycare perspective.
And then I got the opportunityto join Pacify and I think
really, great opportunity for mein a couple ways.
I think it, it combines thattech and people thing that I
(04:51):
feel very passionate about andthen just really feel passionate
about being in the women'shealth space.
My own personal journey inbecoming a new parent.
Okay, I'll age myself at the ageof 40, so I was on the older
side of things.
And at that time I lived a lotof life and, thought I'd done a
lot of hard things, but becominga new parent was.
(05:11):
Very rewarding, but also one ofthe hardest things that I've
done,
Eric Thrailkill (05:15):
Frankly, at any age.
Yes.
Jennifer Sargent (05:17):
And and I realized that I came into that
experience from a veryprivileged position with a lot
of resources that many, newparents or expected parents in
the country don't have.
And so I really just appreciatedthe opportunity to come to
pacify and lead the business andreally try to make an impact in
the space.
Eric Thrailkill (05:34):
Oh, that's great.
And one, one question on Vera,were those sites affiliated
with.
Employers, is that how the modelworked or was it
Jennifer Sargent (05:43):
Yeah, it started affiliated with
employers.
Okay.
But really did a great job ofcreating a near site network.
Okay.
So we'd have a clinic, dedicatedto an employer, but then we'd
build additional clinics in the.
Kind of geographic area that wewere serving.
And then members could use anyclinic in the network.
And then through our time, weevolved the business a bit and
did enter Medicare Advantage inpartnership with the payer and
(06:06):
did some of the Payvider clinicsright, that, you're hearing
about now and they're stilldoing that today.
So really great experience tothink about working across all
different lines of business anddelivering great care.
Eric Thrailkill (06:18):
So you joined Pacify a little over two years
ago.
Give us a little of the originstory of Pacify.
Jennifer Sargent (06:23):
Yeah.
Pacify has been around for over10 years.
Started, the two foundersstarted to really solve a need
in the infant feeding space.
Okay.
And so they, saw this happeningof new parents having infant
feeding support needs at 2:00 AMand then.
Being concerned about theirinfant and going to the
emergency department to gethelp.
(06:43):
And so they created this greatmodel, which is still a big part
of our business today.
Think about it like Uber, likefor lactation.
Okay, so 24 7 on demand accessto IB CLCs virtually, and.
Really grew the business in ameaningful way focused on
serving Medicaid, MCOs andpublic health organizations.
Eric Thrailkill (07:01):
Okay.
And impact measured in manydifferent ways.
I would assume.
You might touch on that a littlebit as well.
Jennifer Sargent (07:05):
Yeah.
We've seen with some of ourclients case studies, at two and
a half times.
Greater chance for,breastfeeding, within six months
of delivery
Eric Thrailkill (07:14):
with that support.
Jennifer Sargent (07:15):
With that support we've seen reduction in
ED visits and things like thatand just great member
experience.
Right.
I, my own experience when when that baby
isn't eating at 2:00 AM that'sa, that's an emotional and hard
thing, and so just, providingthat great meaningful experience
for the member.
Eric Thrailkill (07:30):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
And.
The pacify has grown since then.
Jennifer Sargent (07:35):
We have, so right before I joined Pacify,
launched the Virtual DoulaNetwork as well, that came from
a request from one of ourMedicaid customers as we, as
they were seeing the impact thatdoulas can have and the
increased demand for access forthat service.
And then since I've joined,we've really taken a focus on
(07:56):
how do we create a tech enableddoula led solution that gets a
member matched with a doula asearly as possible in their
perinatal journey.
Provide both virtual andin-person care, and then make
sure we can get them additionalsupport through things like
lactation consultant
Eric Thrailkill (08:12):
support.
Yeah and take us through the.
Your own perspective on thehistory?
There's certainly been anincrease in the value
proposition.
I think is a good one and hasbeen demonstrated in many
different geographic areas ofdoulas in the us.
Jennifer Sargent (08:28):
Yeah, I think doulas have been around for a
long time.
And I think in the last five-ishyears there's been some really
great research that shows theimpact that doulas can have
Eric Thrailkill (08:38):
and mostly access through personal
relationships.
Y right?
Is that right?
Yeah.
Jennifer Sargent (08:41):
Historically, it was a lot of just out ofp
pocket pay.
I know somebody, or I used adoula.
This doula was great, you shoulduse them.
And I think as Medicaid, as aleader and innovator.
In doula access Medicaid statestarted, requiring reimbursement
for doula services and thatreally started to change the
landscape of doula care and ledto some great research on the
(09:02):
outcomes that doulas can provideand support in that perinatal
journey.
And, since then we've seen moreand more.
Medicaid states get on boardwith doulas being a part of the
reimbursable model, and nowwe're seeing commercial plans
start to go down that path,employers start to go down that
path.
Eric Thrailkill (09:19):
Interesting.
Yeah.
So just a
Jennifer Sargent (09:20):
really great, like increase in, in demand for
the service.
Eric Thrailkill (09:23):
Do we have enough qualified, certified
doulas and maybe talk a littlebit about that, the
certification or the licensureprocess.
Jennifer Sargent (09:30):
Yeah, it's a great question.
I think I'd start there with.
As doula demand has increased.
So has doula burnout.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean it's and doulas I think, want to be
able to support all sorts ofpopulations, but they're
typically don't have theadministrative support to do
things like bill claims or getcredentialed, nor probably do
(09:51):
they want to.
Like they just wanna providegreat care.
So as we think about, our model,we always look at.
Our key stakeholders and are wedriving value for them?
And doulas are, and lactationconsultants are a key
stakeholder for us.
So we really focus on how can wenot just support existing doulas
by bringing them into the pacifynetwork and supporting them and
serving members and taking onthat administrative burden.
(10:14):
But then how do we help withworkforce development?
Because I do think like in lotsof other spaces in healthcare,
behavioral health, et cetera,like we're gonna have a supply
issue.
So we do things like scholarshipprograms in key markets.
We have a mentorship program fornewly trained doulas that wanna
come in and get experience with,more experienced doulas and get
live birth experience.
(10:34):
And just really supporting, notjust existing doulas, but how do
we get more
Eric Thrailkill (10:37):
doulas?
Oh, that's great.
I'd imagine that layer ofadministrative support and just
overall support on the tech sidewould be a huge benefit.
And the avoidance of all thatmessy administrative right.
25% of our US healthcare spend,right?
That is involved in that.
Early on the before Medicaid,these were mostly private pay?
(10:58):
Or when did Medicaid in the lastfour or five years?
Jennifer Sargent (11:01):
Yeah.
I'm not exactly sure which statewhen the first state came out
with reimbursement, but it's notbeen, it's been pretty recent,
right?
Recent.
And so before that, doula wasprimarily private pay
Eric Thrailkill (11:11):
and recent, maybe for a couple of reasons,
maybe the lack of evidence andfinancial modeling that.
Made that an impact as well asthe experience, et cetera.
And now increasing evidence anddemonstration that the model is
effective and working
Jennifer Sargent (11:28):
correct?
Yeah.
Research shows us that withdoula support, there can be an
impact of up to 60% reduction inc-section rates.
68% lower risk for postpartumcomplications.
So just, really great, justbetter birth experience.
And I think as we're also facingmaternity care deserts, 35% of
counties in the United Statesare considered a maternity care
(11:50):
desert.
That's where the technology canreally support by us being able
to provide virtual supportanywhere.
Eric Thrailkill (11:56):
And I imagine the.
The technology assist.
Talk a little bit about thematch experience as well.
Because that in a personalreference world.
Matches are difficult.
It may be very challenging, butleveraging the tech to really
find the match between the momand the doula.
Jennifer Sargent (12:14):
Yeah.
It's such an important part ofthe journey.
You think about welcoming adoula into your pregnancy and
birth experience is veryintimate.
Trust and a lot of trust, and wewanna make sure that
relationship can be built.
So we leverage technology in afew ways.
First, it tells us about themember.
If they're coming in through oneof our payer partnerships, what
(12:34):
they have available for them,that's reimbursable versus out
of pocket, where do they live?
Like that sort of basicinformation.
And then we gather informationfrom the member through a.
Questionnaire in the technologyplatform just to get a sense of
who might be an appropriatematch for culturally sensitive
care, what kind of, first birth,second birth, high risk, et
(12:55):
cetera.
We take that information andthen we map match them with the
right doula to meet their needs.
And that's a people processtoday.
So combining the technology andpeople process, as you can
imagine, we have to think aboutcapacity and how many bursts per
month, et cetera.
But we use that.
Intake process to really learnabout the member and make sure
we can make a great match.
Eric Thrailkill (13:14):
And the geographic support, or maybe
some markets that, that you cantalk about with pacify.
Jennifer Sargent (13:20):
Yeah.
So we provide virtual servicesacross the country and then we
have some key markets wherewe're doing both virtual and in
person.
Okay.
Yeah, so think about.
Virtual first for prenatal andpostpartum, but then we're also
able to offer that in-personlabor and delivery support.
Okay.
In markets like Maryland,Virginia, Pennsylvania,
Wisconsin soon to be in Floridaand South Carolina and growing
(13:42):
across the country.
And I think that's a great modelthat helps us get that care
across the country.
But again, like we can usevirtual now, right?
Where we don't have in personand drive really great outcomes.
Eric Thrailkill (13:54):
And then maybe talk a little bit about
postpartum and we'll get intothe transaction with Mandy,
major and major care.
Jennifer Sargent (13:59):
Yeah.
The postpartum experience is soimportant.
I think, as a, especially afirst time parent, there's so
much excitement and focus on thepregnancy and the birth, and
then you get home and now youhave this.
Baby.
You don't know what you'resupposed to be doing.
I
Eric Thrailkill (14:13):
totally remember that 32 years ago.
But remember it like it'syesterday, right?
Yes.
Jennifer Sargent (14:17):
Yes.
It's such an important periodand we know from a maternal
mortality perspective, 50 to 60%of deaths actually happen
postpartum.
So it's such an important partof the journey for.
Physical, emotional support forthat new parent and the birth
partner as well as the baby.
And so doulas can play a reallycritical role.
They're oftentimes, one of thefirst people to speak with a new
(14:39):
parent post birth, even beforethey go in for their first,
provider visit.
And can really assess how isthat new parent doing?
Look for depression and anxiety.
Signs to get them connected ifthey need help.
Just be there to support.
Oftentimes it's really impactfulfor them to have somebody to
re-experience their birth and,digest that and can just be
(14:59):
really great support.
I just listen.
Eric Thrailkill (15:00):
No, I could see where significant impact there.
So Mandy is a dear friend andthe company Major Care and
Pacify came together just in thelast year.
Talk a little bit about that andwhat you're excited about from
major care.
Jennifer Sargent (15:13):
Yeah.
I got the opportunity to meetMandy right around a year ago
last January of last year, andwas just really impressed with
the company that she built.
I think Mandy as a founder hadsuch a great personal story and
such great passion for thesupport that doulas can provide,
particularly focused on that.
On the postpartum period.
She was providing care allthroughout the pregnancy journey
(15:35):
with her doulas.
But that, that really greatpassion.
And I think Mandy as our chiefexperience officer just really
brings that tremendous amount ofability to look across all of
the member journey and make surewe're delivering great care.
They had really thought out carepathways that we were able to
pull into the pacify experienceand be able to expand on that.
(15:56):
And Mandy's been fantastic.
She led our recent techre-platform launch that just
happened in the past four weeks.
So we've been, congratulations.
Yeah, we've been a little busy.
How's that going?
It's great.
It's been really great.
We were able just to, is
Eric Thrailkill (16:06):
that sort of a big bang that you, it just
upgraded the platform to the newplatform and rolled it out
Jennifer Sargent (16:12):
basically.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's been good.
And this.
It's really added a lot of thefeatures that are enabling us to
have that thoughtful memberjourney and the matching process
and to be able to scale quickly.
So that's just been a great, andshe's been fantastic as well as
her doulas pulling into thepacify organization.
Oh, that's great.
Eric Thrailkill (16:28):
So a little bit on the tech platform.
Is it?
Leverage SMS for messaging or isit an app, a downloadable app,
or how does one access it?
Jennifer Sargent (16:36):
Yeah, it is a downloadable app.
So then members go through theonboarding process and it allows
us to pull any member in andfigure out the right path for
them, whether they have.
Insurance coverage, whetherthey're gonna pay out of pocket,
whether they're one of ourpublic health clients, so we can
get them in and then say, okay,great.
Here's the right path for you.
Do that onboarding process andthen it has this member
(16:58):
engagement engine built in.
So push notifications, SMSemail, and it'll really focus on
how do we make sure.
The member gets matched with adoula and then completes all of
the visits that we think willdrive the best outcomes as we're
using that kind of marketingengine throughout the process.
Eric Thrailkill (17:13):
Makes sense.
And my guess is you use somemotivational behavioral nudges
along the journey as well.
And you're getting good data.
My guess is on that, on theeligibility and on the insurance
side, is it.
Do you interface with with theplans that cover the services?
Jennifer Sargent (17:28):
Yeah, so we have built into the technology
experience, automatic insuranceverification.
Okay.
We can also do that on the backend, so we,
Eric Thrailkill (17:36):
so if coverage is available Yes.
Then an easier process.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, no.
Fantastic.
And then where do you see maybeuse of generative AI and
continuing to leverage the data?
There's obviously at a show likeVibe, there's a lot of talk
about what we've just observedin the last 27 months with
(17:56):
generative ai.
And it, I feel like it changesalmost overnight every day with
what's with what's possible.
But this.
A place that I've been focusingon is structured and
unstructured data and doing morewith unstructured data to
enhance the experience.
Et cetera.
Jennifer Sargent (18:11):
Yeah.
We're certainly, keeping oureyes on what's happening in ai.
I think it's for us with a very,people driven business, it's
figuring out.
When do you want the realperson, involved in the middle
of it versus when can you useai?
And maybe
Eric Thrailkill (18:28):
when they can be supported or augmented with
Jennifer Sargent (18:31):
Right.
Eric Thrailkill (18:31):
Leveraging that.
Jennifer Sargent (18:32):
Yeah.
We do have through a partner,we're doing AI phone outreach.
Okay.
As a part of enrollmentengagement efforts.
And that's.
Proven to be very effective thatpartner is in power health.
So again, we're figuring outwhere can it fit within the
journey and, provide impactwithout getting in the way of
that people relationship.
It's
Eric Thrailkill (18:51):
a good place to be.
And it changes so fast andfrankly I think the tech gets a
little bit better every day aswell, you're in a, you seem to
be in a great spot there.
Moving forward, let's talk aboutmaybe the next three to five
years.
First tell us a little bit aboutcoverage by states via Medicaid.
At one time, if I remember thenumbers correctly, maybe up to
(19:13):
35 or so states had coveragefor.
Doula services and postpartumservices.
Jennifer Sargent (19:18):
Yep.
And it's growing.
Okay.
Yep.
We, a lot of, I think moststates either have coverage
today or they have something inprocess, a bill, something
happening to, to providecoverage.
So
Eric Thrailkill (19:28):
clear universal evidence that this is a good
model that can impact.
The end and parent in many ways.
Yes.
Jennifer Sargent (19:35):
I think what we're also seeing now is early
states that were greatinnovators and adopted this
benefit came in with two lowreimbursement rates and so we're
starting to see some of that beright size.
That's obviously reallyimportant to make sure that
doulas can.
Earn a good living wageproviding services in the
Medicaid population.
And I think states are learningabout structure.
(19:56):
Each state has, somewhatdifferent amount of visits that
they offer.
Some states are allowing virtualcare for prenatal, postpartum,
some are not.
So I think we'll start to see.
A more, coalescing around astandard in the next, couple
years across the states.
But just great to see thatexpanded coverage.
Eric Thrailkill (20:14):
Do you see any in the business model
opportunities for risk sharingor participation in the quality
that's been demonstrated?
Jennifer Sargent (20:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
I have spent time in the.
Value-based.
I always air quote that onpurpose because it can mean lots
of different things.
Depending, we have one payerrelationship where we have both
upside and downside incentives.
Okay.
Based on quality metrics.
Okay.
And things like ed avoidance.
And so I think where we will bechallenged is doulas and
(20:45):
lactation consultants canimpact, but, doulas particularly
are nonclinical.
And we can't control theproviders and what they're
recommending.
So if you think about thechallenge of being in a risk
relationship, but one of thethings that we are trying really
hard to do is developrelationships with providers in
our key markets.
It's been very important to usas an organization that our
service does not addfragmentation.
(21:07):
So we focused on services thattypically aren't provided
through a provider relationship.
That's
Eric Thrailkill (21:12):
a great way to think about it.
What we don't want to do isintroduce increasing amounts of.
Fragmented services that areprovided.
Jennifer Sargent (21:20):
Absolutely.
Eric Thrailkill (21:21):
So you're focused on consolidating that.
No, I like that a lot.
And then maybe touch on we'reearly in 2025 and what 25 looks
like and then maybe a little bitbeyond.
Jennifer Sargent (21:33):
Yeah, great question.
For us, 2025 as we've justlaunched our tech platform and
some new services heavilyfocused on executing on our kind
of.
Proven business and scaling itinto new markets, really driving
patient volume.
Working to develop thoseprovider relationships like I
spoke about in those keymarkets.
That's a heavy focus for us fromlike an operational and growth
(21:55):
perspective.
We are also continuing to lookfor more commercial plans to
cover doulas.
We have a big push in workingwith those organizations to
figure out how they can roll outthe benefit.
And then I think past, latelater, 20 25, 20 26, it'll be
looking at what additionalproducts either through.
Building ourselves orpartnering, could we add onto
(22:17):
our model that sticks with that?
Like we don't wanna addfragmentation, we wanna add
value.
I think there's lots ofdifferent areas that, you know,
because we have that memberengaged with the doula could
pull them into other servicesthat could provide value.
Eric Thrailkill (22:31):
That's great.
And then how do you measure thepatient experience?
Jennifer Sargent (22:36):
Yeah really great question.
So I think we look at it a fewways.
So first and with the new techplatform, we'll be able to do
this more meaningfully, justwatching how the member engages
through the journey.
Are they engaging in the rightthings?
Where are they dropping off?
How can we,
Eric Thrailkill (22:48):
and you're learning from that and learning
a
Jennifer Sargent (22:49):
ton from that.
How can we make that experiencebetter?
And then we're also asking themember, how was your experience?
We.
Collect self-reportedinformation from them on how
their birth went, et cetera, andthen work with our payer
partners to then look at claimscost outcomes, et cetera, so
that we can have a big pictureof the impact that we're making,
both for the member as well asfor the customer, which is
(23:11):
typically a payer in this.
Example.
Eric Thrailkill (23:14):
Got it.
Fantastic.
And one, one last question.
I've been thinking a lot andreally relying on the input from
other healthcare leaders.
So thanks for for taking thisquestion.
About a phrase that I heard.
Speed matters more, scalematters less and innovation
matters most in the world inwhich we're living in.
Where this.
World of existing healthcaremeets exponential innovation and
(23:35):
new things are happening everyday.
It's difficult for all of us tocomprehend the changes that are
occurring.
How do you think about
Jennifer Sargent (23:42):
that?
Yeah, such a great question.
Pacify is at such an interestingjuncture.
We've been around for 10 years,so we're, past the startup
phase, right?
We've got a lot of proven modelsthat we are working to scale.
But we are balancing that withinnovation.
I'll use the doula program as anexample.
We've pivoted pretty quicklyover the past two years in how
(24:02):
we're delivering the doula care.
Three years ago we weren'tbilling claims for that service.
Now we are, introduced the newtech platform.
And so I think based on our.
Kind of size.
We have the, a right balance ofthe ability to scale, but also
really focus on innovation andhow do we, tweak our business
model as we see new thingscoming up and we're paying close
attention to, the new innovativemodels and thinking about how we
(24:25):
might incorporate them intoours.
Eric Thrailkill (24:27):
That's great.
You've been generous with yourtime.
I know timing is a factor hereas you're on your way outta
Nashville.
And thanks for for being heretoday Of course and helping us
understand the story of pacify.
Great.
Thank you for having me.
Jennifer Sargent (24:39):
Thanks.
Jennifer, thanks for joining.
Jennifer Sargent (01:48):
Thanks for having me.
Eric Thrailkill (01:48):
We are here at five on day three or four, if
you count.
Sunday a little overnight.
Snow has impacted the event alittle bit, but gimme your
perspective and maybeobservations of of the event
this year in Nashville.
Jennifer Sargent (02:02):
Yeah, it's been really great to I think
listen to folks talk abouttechnology and how they're
thinking about the intersectionof technology very related
relatable for pacify as we'rethinking about the integration
of.
The intersection of technologyand our, services driven by
people, and how do you bringthose two things together.
And so I really enjoyed kind ofhearing about other industries,
(02:23):
primary care, et cetera, and howthey're thinking about those
things together,
Eric Thrailkill (02:26):
the segments.
Have you been around and justobserved the various stages?
And also I need to ask you, haveyou had a chance to explore
Nashville outside of the MusicCity Center?
Jennifer Sargent (02:37):
Not much.
I did have a great dinner lastnight as a Minnesotan enjoyed
the snow, but
Eric Thrailkill (02:41):
yeah.
That's fantastic.
Let's start with a little bit ofyour background and a golden
gopher, as you mentioned, fromMinnesota with your MBA and then
onto your professional careerand maybe take us through Vera
Home Health.
Jennifer Sargent (02:54):
Yeah.
Great.
Go Health.
Yeah, so I have been inhealthcare my entire career.
Fell into it by way of youngpeople, often do in industries
and really have been dedicatedto staying in it.
'cause it was important to me tobe in a space where I could make
a positive impact on society andpeople at large.
And
good for you.
There's,
there's never a shortage of, problems to solve
(03:16):
in healthcare.
That's true.
So that's a great place to be.
As I came up in my career I haveactually had the opportunity to
be at an organization that wasall a people driven business.
It was called plus one healthmanagement.
Okay.
And did onsite fitness centermanagement Okay.
For corporations in Minnesota.
We were actually based in NewYork.
Okay.
But then we got acquired byUnited Health Group.
So made my way back with that.
(03:37):
And with that took a new role inOptum.
And that was really at the timewhen it was.
All technology.
It was, big wellness portals,like we're gonna put technology
out there to solve all theproblems.
And in that sort of space,that's when it became apparent
to me that I think to reallydrive care meaningfully, you
have to have both technology.
And people together.
(03:57):
And that's what really makes theimpact.
Eric Thrailkill (03:59):
The tech will never replace the human element
that exactly is necessary,whether that's health and
prevention and fitness orhealthcare as we know it.
Jennifer Sargent (04:07):
Exactly.
So that led me to theopportunity at Vera Whole
Health, which was an advancedprimary care organization that
was using technology alongsideprimary care clinics to really
manage population and.
Primarily the commercial spaceand was at that organization
through the pandemic.
Okay.
And I think the pandemic taughtall of us a lot about how to use
(04:30):
technology and the role ofvirtual that it can play, that
it can be impactful in certainsituations.
And helped us evolve how wethought about technology with
care delivery from a primarycare perspective.
And then I got the opportunityto join Pacify and I think
really, great opportunity for mein a couple ways.
I think it, it combines thattech and people thing that I
(04:51):
feel very passionate about andthen just really feel passionate
about being in the women'shealth space.
My own personal journey inbecoming a new parent.
Okay, I'll age myself at the ageof 40, so I was on the older
side of things.
And at that time I lived a lotof life and, thought I'd done a
lot of hard things, but becominga new parent was.
(05:11):
Very rewarding, but also one ofthe hardest things that I've
done,
Eric Thrailkill (05:15):
Frankly, at any age.
Yes.
Jennifer Sargent (05:17):
And and I realized that I came into that
experience from a veryprivileged position with a lot
of resources that many, newparents or expected parents in
the country don't have.
And so I really just appreciatedthe opportunity to come to
pacify and lead the business andreally try to make an impact in
the space.
Eric Thrailkill (05:34):
Oh, that's great.
And one, one question on Vera,were those sites affiliated
with.
Employers, is that how the modelworked or was it
Jennifer Sargent (05:43):
Yeah, it started affiliated with
employers.
Okay.
But really did a great job ofcreating a near site network.
Okay.
So we'd have a clinic, dedicatedto an employer, but then we'd
build additional clinics in the.
Kind of geographic area that wewere serving.
And then members could use anyclinic in the network.
And then through our time, weevolved the business a bit and
did enter Medicare Advantage inpartnership with the payer and
(06:06):
did some of the Payvider clinicsright, that, you're hearing
about now and they're stilldoing that today.
So really great experience tothink about working across all
different lines of business anddelivering great care.
Eric Thrailkill (06:18):
So you joined Pacify a little over two years
ago.
Give us a little of the originstory of Pacify.
Jennifer Sargent (06:23):
Yeah.
Pacify has been around for over10 years.
Started, the two foundersstarted to really solve a need
in the infant feeding space.
Okay.
And so they, saw this happeningof new parents having infant
feeding support needs at 2:00 AMand then.
Being concerned about theirinfant and going to the
emergency department to gethelp.
(06:43):
And so they created this greatmodel, which is still a big part
of our business today.
Think about it like Uber, likefor lactation.
Okay, so 24 7 on demand accessto IB CLCs virtually, and.
Really grew the business in ameaningful way focused on
serving Medicaid, MCOs andpublic health organizations.
Eric Thrailkill (07:01):
Okay.
And impact measured in manydifferent ways.
I would assume.
You might touch on that a littlebit as well.
Jennifer Sargent (07:05):
Yeah.
We've seen with some of ourclients case studies, at two and
a half times.
Greater chance for,breastfeeding, within six months
of delivery
Eric Thrailkill (07:14):
with that support.
Jennifer Sargent (07:15):
With that support we've seen reduction in
ED visits and things like thatand just great member
experience.
Right.
I, my own experience when when that baby
isn't eating at 2:00 AM that'sa, that's an emotional and hard
thing, and so just, providingthat great meaningful experience
for the member.
Eric Thrailkill (07:30):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
And.
The pacify has grown since then.
Jennifer Sargent (07:35):
We have, so right before I joined Pacify,
launched the Virtual DoulaNetwork as well, that came from
a request from one of ourMedicaid customers as we, as
they were seeing the impact thatdoulas can have and the
increased demand for access forthat service.
And then since I've joined,we've really taken a focus on
(07:56):
how do we create a tech enableddoula led solution that gets a
member matched with a doula asearly as possible in their
perinatal journey.
Provide both virtual andin-person care, and then make
sure we can get them additionalsupport through things like
lactation consultant
Eric Thrailkill (08:12):
support.
Yeah and take us through the.
Your own perspective on thehistory?
There's certainly been anincrease in the value
proposition.
I think is a good one and hasbeen demonstrated in many
different geographic areas ofdoulas in the us.
Jennifer Sargent (08:28):
Yeah, I think doulas have been around for a
long time.
And I think in the last five-ishyears there's been some really
great research that shows theimpact that doulas can have
Eric Thrailkill (08:38):
and mostly access through personal
relationships.
Y right?
Is that right?
Yeah.
Jennifer Sargent (08:41):
Historically, it was a lot of just out ofp
pocket pay.
I know somebody, or I used adoula.
This doula was great, you shoulduse them.
And I think as Medicaid, as aleader and innovator.
In doula access Medicaid statestarted, requiring reimbursement
for doula services and thatreally started to change the
landscape of doula care and ledto some great research on the
(09:02):
outcomes that doulas can provideand support in that perinatal
journey.
And, since then we've seen moreand more.
Medicaid states get on boardwith doulas being a part of the
reimbursable model, and nowwe're seeing commercial plans
start to go down that path,employers start to go down that
path.
Eric Thrailkill (09:19):
Interesting.
Yeah.
So just a
Jennifer Sargent (09:20):
really great, like increase in, in demand for
the service.
Eric Thrailkill (09:23):
Do we have enough qualified, certified
doulas and maybe talk a littlebit about that, the
certification or the licensureprocess.
Jennifer Sargent (09:30):
Yeah, it's a great question.
I think I'd start there with.
As doula demand has increased.
So has doula burnout.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean it's and doulas I think, want to be
able to support all sorts ofpopulations, but they're
typically don't have theadministrative support to do
things like bill claims or getcredentialed, nor probably do
(09:51):
they want to.
Like they just wanna providegreat care.
So as we think about, our model,we always look at.
Our key stakeholders and are wedriving value for them?
And doulas are, and lactationconsultants are a key
stakeholder for us.
So we really focus on how can wenot just support existing doulas
by bringing them into the pacifynetwork and supporting them and
serving members and taking onthat administrative burden.
(10:14):
But then how do we help withworkforce development?
Because I do think like in lotsof other spaces in healthcare,
behavioral health, et cetera,like we're gonna have a supply
issue.
So we do things like scholarshipprograms in key markets.
We have a mentorship program fornewly trained doulas that wanna
come in and get experience with,more experienced doulas and get
live birth experience.
(10:34):
And just really supporting, notjust existing doulas, but how do
we get more
Eric Thrailkill (10:37):
doulas?
Oh, that's great.
I'd imagine that layer ofadministrative support and just
overall support on the tech sidewould be a huge benefit.
And the avoidance of all thatmessy administrative right.
25% of our US healthcare spend,right?
That is involved in that.
Early on the before Medicaid,these were mostly private pay?
(10:58):
Or when did Medicaid in the lastfour or five years?
Jennifer Sargent (11:01):
Yeah.
I'm not exactly sure which statewhen the first state came out
with reimbursement, but it's notbeen, it's been pretty recent,
right?
Recent.
And so before that, doula wasprimarily private pay
Eric Thrailkill (11:11):
and recent, maybe for a couple of reasons,
maybe the lack of evidence andfinancial modeling that.
Made that an impact as well asthe experience, et cetera.
And now increasing evidence anddemonstration that the model is
effective and working
Jennifer Sargent (11:28):
correct?
Yeah.
Research shows us that withdoula support, there can be an
impact of up to 60% reduction inc-section rates.
68% lower risk for postpartumcomplications.
So just, really great, justbetter birth experience.
And I think as we're also facingmaternity care deserts, 35% of
counties in the United Statesare considered a maternity care
(11:50):
desert.
That's where the technology canreally support by us being able
to provide virtual supportanywhere.
Eric Thrailkill (11:56):
And I imagine the.
The technology assist.
Talk a little bit about thematch experience as well.
Because that in a personalreference world.
Matches are difficult.
It may be very challenging, butleveraging the tech to really
find the match between the momand the doula.
Jennifer Sargent (12:14):
Yeah.
It's such an important part ofthe journey.
You think about welcoming adoula into your pregnancy and
birth experience is veryintimate.
Trust and a lot of trust, and wewanna make sure that
relationship can be built.
So we leverage technology in afew ways.
First, it tells us about themember.
If they're coming in through oneof our payer partnerships, what
(12:34):
they have available for them,that's reimbursable versus out
of pocket, where do they live?
Like that sort of basicinformation.
And then we gather informationfrom the member through a.
Questionnaire in the technologyplatform just to get a sense of
who might be an appropriatematch for culturally sensitive
care, what kind of, first birth,second birth, high risk, et
(12:55):
cetera.
We take that information andthen we map match them with the
right doula to meet their needs.
And that's a people processtoday.
So combining the technology andpeople process, as you can
imagine, we have to think aboutcapacity and how many bursts per
month, et cetera.
But we use that.
Intake process to really learnabout the member and make sure
we can make a great match.
Eric Thrailkill (13:14):
And the geographic support, or maybe
some markets that, that you cantalk about with pacify.
Jennifer Sargent (13:20):
Yeah.
So we provide virtual servicesacross the country and then we
have some key markets wherewe're doing both virtual and in
person.
Okay.
Yeah, so think about.
Virtual first for prenatal andpostpartum, but then we're also
able to offer that in-personlabor and delivery support.
Okay.
In markets like Maryland,Virginia, Pennsylvania,
Wisconsin soon to be in Floridaand South Carolina and growing
(13:42):
across the country.
And I think that's a great modelthat helps us get that care
across the country.
But again, like we can usevirtual now, right?
Where we don't have in personand drive really great outcomes.
Eric Thrailkill (13:54):
And then maybe talk a little bit about
postpartum and we'll get intothe transaction with Mandy,
major and major care.
Jennifer Sargent (13:59):
Yeah.
The postpartum experience is soimportant.
I think, as a, especially afirst time parent, there's so
much excitement and focus on thepregnancy and the birth, and
then you get home and now youhave this.
Baby.
You don't know what you'resupposed to be doing.
I
Eric Thrailkill (14:13):
totally remember that 32 years ago.
But remember it like it'syesterday, right?
Yes.
Jennifer Sargent (14:17):
Yes.
It's such an important periodand we know from a maternal
mortality perspective, 50 to 60%of deaths actually happen
postpartum.
So it's such an important partof the journey for.
Physical, emotional support forthat new parent and the birth
partner as well as the baby.
And so doulas can play a reallycritical role.
They're oftentimes, one of thefirst people to speak with a new
(14:39):
parent post birth, even beforethey go in for their first,
provider visit.
And can really assess how isthat new parent doing?
Look for depression and anxiety.
Signs to get them connected ifthey need help.
Just be there to support.
Oftentimes it's really impactfulfor them to have somebody to
re-experience their birth and,digest that and can just be
(14:59):
really great support.
I just listen.
Eric Thrailkill (15:00):
No, I could see where significant impact there.
So Mandy is a dear friend andthe company Major Care and
Pacify came together just in thelast year.
Talk a little bit about that andwhat you're excited about from
major care.
Jennifer Sargent (15:13):
Yeah.
I got the opportunity to meetMandy right around a year ago
last January of last year, andwas just really impressed with
the company that she built.
I think Mandy as a founder hadsuch a great personal story and
such great passion for thesupport that doulas can provide,
particularly focused on that.
On the postpartum period.
She was providing care allthroughout the pregnancy journey
(15:35):
with her doulas.
But that, that really greatpassion.
And I think Mandy as our chiefexperience officer just really
brings that tremendous amount ofability to look across all of
the member journey and make surewe're delivering great care.
They had really thought out carepathways that we were able to
pull into the pacify experienceand be able to expand on that.
(15:56):
And Mandy's been fantastic.
She led our recent techre-platform launch that just
happened in the past four weeks.
So we've been, congratulations.
Yeah, we've been a little busy.
How's that going?
It's great.
It's been really great.
We were able just to, is
Eric Thrailkill (16:06):
that sort of a big bang that you, it just
upgraded the platform to the newplatform and rolled it out
Jennifer Sargent (16:12):
basically.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's been good.
And this.
It's really added a lot of thefeatures that are enabling us to
have that thoughtful memberjourney and the matching process
and to be able to scale quickly.
So that's just been a great, andshe's been fantastic as well as
her doulas pulling into thepacify organization.
Oh, that's great.
Eric Thrailkill (16:28):
So a little bit on the tech platform.
Is it?
Leverage SMS for messaging or isit an app, a downloadable app,
or how does one access it?
Jennifer Sargent (16:36):
Yeah, it is a downloadable app.
So then members go through theonboarding process and it allows
us to pull any member in andfigure out the right path for
them, whether they have.
Insurance coverage, whetherthey're gonna pay out of pocket,
whether they're one of ourpublic health clients, so we can
get them in and then say, okay,great.
Here's the right path for you.
Do that onboarding process andthen it has this member
(16:58):
engagement engine built in.
So push notifications, SMSemail, and it'll really focus on
how do we make sure.
The member gets matched with adoula and then completes all of
the visits that we think willdrive the best outcomes as we're
using that kind of marketingengine throughout the process.
Eric Thrailkill (17:13):
Makes sense.
And my guess is you use somemotivational behavioral nudges
along the journey as well.
And you're getting good data.
My guess is on that, on theeligibility and on the insurance
side, is it.
Do you interface with with theplans that cover the services?
Jennifer Sargent (17:28):
Yeah, so we have built into the technology
experience, automatic insuranceverification.
Okay.
We can also do that on the backend, so we,
Eric Thrailkill (17:36):
so if coverage is available Yes.
Then an easier process.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, no.
Fantastic.
And then where do you see maybeuse of generative AI and
continuing to leverage the data?
There's obviously at a show likeVibe, there's a lot of talk
about what we've just observedin the last 27 months with
(17:56):
generative ai.
And it, I feel like it changesalmost overnight every day with
what's with what's possible.
But this.
A place that I've been focusingon is structured and
unstructured data and doing morewith unstructured data to
enhance the experience.
Et cetera.
Jennifer Sargent (18:11):
Yeah.
We're certainly, keeping oureyes on what's happening in ai.
I think it's for us with a very,people driven business, it's
figuring out.
When do you want the realperson, involved in the middle
of it versus when can you useai?
And maybe
Eric Thrailkill (18:28):
when they can be supported or augmented with
Jennifer Sargent (18:31):
Right.
Eric Thrailkill (18:31):
Leveraging that.
Jennifer Sargent (18:32):
Yeah.
We do have through a partner,we're doing AI phone outreach.
Okay.
As a part of enrollmentengagement efforts.
And that's.
Proven to be very effective thatpartner is in power health.
So again, we're figuring outwhere can it fit within the
journey and, provide impactwithout getting in the way of
that people relationship.
It's
Eric Thrailkill (18:51):
a good place to be.
And it changes so fast andfrankly I think the tech gets a
little bit better every day aswell, you're in a, you seem to
be in a great spot there.
Moving forward, let's talk aboutmaybe the next three to five
years.
First tell us a little bit aboutcoverage by states via Medicaid.
At one time, if I remember thenumbers correctly, maybe up to
(19:13):
35 or so states had coveragefor.
Doula services and postpartumservices.
Jennifer Sargent (19:18):
Yep.
And it's growing.
Okay.
Yep.
We, a lot of, I think moststates either have coverage
today or they have something inprocess, a bill, something
happening to, to providecoverage.
So
Eric Thrailkill (19:28):
clear universal evidence that this is a good
model that can impact.
The end and parent in many ways.
Yes.
Jennifer Sargent (19:35):
I think what we're also seeing now is early
states that were greatinnovators and adopted this
benefit came in with two lowreimbursement rates and so we're
starting to see some of that beright size.
That's obviously reallyimportant to make sure that
doulas can.
Earn a good living wageproviding services in the
Medicaid population.
And I think states are learningabout structure.
(19:56):
Each state has, somewhatdifferent amount of visits that
they offer.
Some states are allowing virtualcare for prenatal, postpartum,
some are not.
So I think we'll start to see.
A more, coalescing around astandard in the next, couple
years across the states.
But just great to see thatexpanded coverage.
Eric Thrailkill (20:14):
Do you see any in the business model
opportunities for risk sharingor participation in the quality
that's been demonstrated?
Jennifer Sargent (20:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
I have spent time in the.
Value-based.
I always air quote that onpurpose because it can mean lots
of different things.
Depending, we have one payerrelationship where we have both
upside and downside incentives.
Okay.
Based on quality metrics.
Okay.
And things like ed avoidance.
And so I think where we will bechallenged is doulas and
(20:45):
lactation consultants canimpact, but, doulas particularly
are nonclinical.
And we can't control theproviders and what they're
recommending.
So if you think about thechallenge of being in a risk
relationship, but one of thethings that we are trying really
hard to do is developrelationships with providers in
our key markets.
It's been very important to usas an organization that our
service does not addfragmentation.
(21:07):
So we focused on services thattypically aren't provided
through a provider relationship.
That's
Eric Thrailkill (21:12):
a great way to think about it.
What we don't want to do isintroduce increasing amounts of.
Fragmented services that areprovided.
Jennifer Sargent (21:20):
Absolutely.
Eric Thrailkill (21:21):
So you're focused on consolidating that.
No, I like that a lot.
And then maybe touch on we'reearly in 2025 and what 25 looks
like and then maybe a little bitbeyond.
Jennifer Sargent (21:33):
Yeah, great question.
For us, 2025 as we've justlaunched our tech platform and
some new services heavilyfocused on executing on our kind
of.
Proven business and scaling itinto new markets, really driving
patient volume.
Working to develop thoseprovider relationships like I
spoke about in those keymarkets.
That's a heavy focus for us fromlike an operational and growth
(21:55):
perspective.
We are also continuing to lookfor more commercial plans to
cover doulas.
We have a big push in workingwith those organizations to
figure out how they can roll outthe benefit.
And then I think past, latelater, 20 25, 20 26, it'll be
looking at what additionalproducts either through.
Building ourselves orpartnering, could we add onto
(22:17):
our model that sticks with that?
Like we don't wanna addfragmentation, we wanna add
value.
I think there's lots ofdifferent areas that, you know,
because we have that memberengaged with the doula could
pull them into other servicesthat could provide value.
Eric Thrailkill (22:31):
That's great.
And then how do you measure thepatient experience?
Jennifer Sargent (22:36):
Yeah really great question.
So I think we look at it a fewways.
So first and with the new techplatform, we'll be able to do
this more meaningfully, justwatching how the member engages
through the journey.
Are they engaging in the rightthings?
Where are they dropping off?
How can we,
Eric Thrailkill (22:48):
and you're learning from that and learning
a
Jennifer Sargent (22:49):
ton from that.
How can we make that experiencebetter?
And then we're also asking themember, how was your experience?
We.
Collect self-reportedinformation from them on how
their birth went, et cetera, andthen work with our payer
partners to then look at claimscost outcomes, et cetera, so
that we can have a big pictureof the impact that we're making,
both for the member as well asfor the customer, which is
(23:11):
typically a payer in this.
Example.
Eric Thrailkill (23:14):
Got it.
Fantastic.
And one, one last question.
I've been thinking a lot andreally relying on the input from
other healthcare leaders.
So thanks for for taking thisquestion.
About a phrase that I heard.
Speed matters more, scalematters less and innovation
matters most in the world inwhich we're living in.
Where this.
World of existing healthcaremeets exponential innovation and
(23:35):
new things are happening everyday.
It's difficult for all of us tocomprehend the changes that are
occurring.
How do you think about
Jennifer Sargent (23:42):
that?
Yeah, such a great question.
Pacify is at such an interestingjuncture.
We've been around for 10 years,so we're, past the startup
phase, right?
We've got a lot of proven modelsthat we are working to scale.
But we are balancing that withinnovation.
I'll use the doula program as anexample.
We've pivoted pretty quicklyover the past two years in how
(24:02):
we're delivering the doula care.
Three years ago we weren'tbilling claims for that service.
Now we are, introduced the newtech platform.
And so I think based on our.
Kind of size.
We have the, a right balance ofthe ability to scale, but also
really focus on innovation andhow do we, tweak our business
model as we see new thingscoming up and we're paying close
attention to, the new innovativemodels and thinking about how we
(24:25):
might incorporate them intoours.
Eric Thrailkill (24:27):
That's great.
You've been generous with yourtime.
I know timing is a factor hereas you're on your way outta
Nashville.
And thanks for for being heretoday Of course and helping us
understand the story of pacify.
Great.
Thank you for having me.
Jennifer Sargent (24:39):
Thanks.
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