February 23, 2025 • 36 mins
This episode explores the complexities of end-of-life choices, focusing on Bonnie's journey with terminal illness and her decision to pursue a dignified death. We explore the emotional terrain around the right to die, the role of doulas, and the importance of open conversations about death.
• Sharing the journey of a mother diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis
• Discussing the implications of California's End of Life Option Act
• Exploring the importance of death doulas for families
• Highlighting the need for open conversations on end-of-life preferences
• Reflecting on the significance of personalized arrangements for a peaceful goodbye
• Emphasizing the blend of humor and grief throughout the process
• Encouraging advocacy for the right to die with dignity
If you want to learn more about End of Life Choices California, visit www.endoflifechoicesca.org.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to Dead Mom Scavenger Hunt.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I'm Christmas and I'm Kara, and today we are going to
talk about death, doulas andend-of-life choices, and part of
what started us on this DeadMom Scavenger Hunt journey that
we're on is that our mom wasdiagnosed with MS and over many
years her disease got worse andworse and worse and she decided
(00:28):
that she wanted to tap out anddid not want to end up
completely vegetative in termsof her body, I guess not
vegetative, but completelybasically paralyzed from the
neck down.
Yeah, basically paralyzed fromthe neck down.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yeah For those of you , for anyone listening, who has
been lucky enough not to have MStouch their life.
Yes, it eventually does, insome cases, progress.
Yeah, to the point where yourthroat muscles you can't swallow
you can't move it.
It doesn't it like destroy themyelin sheath yes, your nerves?
It destroys the myelin sheathof your nerves, or?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
something like that.
It destroys the myelin sheathof your nerves and it kind of
usually starts where your legsdon't work and then your hands
don't work and you can't feedyourself and you can't go to the
bathroom by yourself and it's areally, really shitty way to
die.
And can I just say a resoundingfuck MS.
(01:23):
Yeah, I second that.
But one of the good parts aboutMS and also really shitty parts
about MS at the end is thatyour brain is perfect.
Yeah, your mind is all there,so you are completely aware.
And when you can't talk anymore, you're completely aware,
(01:47):
completely aware, um, and whenyou can't talk anymore, you're
completely aware.
And, as I said, it's it's oneof the probably the worst
diseases to die from.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So it's one of those classes of diseases that you can
in california.
In california there are well,let me back up there's lots of
diseases that are awful, like um.
Lu Gehrig's disease is terrible.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Parkinson's.
Parkinson's Like cancer certaincancers.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
When you are terminal in the state of California, you
can make the choice to die withdignity.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, it's called the end of life option is the law
that's on the books.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
And a lot of people know this, from it being an
option in Oregon and Washington,I believe.
But a lot of people know this,from it being an option in
Oregon and Washington, I believe.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
They started it yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Yeah, but we followed suit, as California often does,
yes, and everyone probablyfirst heard about it, probably
like Dr Kevorkian.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah.
Which was compassionate release.
Basically yes, and it is acompletely different it sounds
dark.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
It does sound dark, but when you're facing these,
when you know that you're goingto die and it's going to be
really ugly, you might want totap out on your own terms.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yes, and when we think about, you know, other
beings that we love, like ourbeloved family pets, pets we
don't want them to suffer.
Yet in some states, when it'sapparent you are forced to watch
them suffer yeah, which I thinkI can speak for cara, when I we
(03:18):
both think that's a tragedy anda travesty and that people
should have control over thatand choices of what they want to
do and have it be peaceful,without having to resort to
something like a gun or anon-medical overdose or
something that's really extremeand that you don't have
(03:39):
resources that you have, like wehave here in California with
the right to die option.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Or in my father-in-law's case, he was
diagnosed with terminal cancer.
He had liver cancer and hewanted to.
He basically ended up having tostarve himself to death, to die
, because he was in.
He was bed bound in a VAhospital and he didn't go
through the steps.
There are many steps you haveto go through.
(04:08):
You have to kind of like youcan't just one day decide you
want to die with dignity.
No, there are steps and ithelps to have advocacy.
And he did not.
He ended up having a strokebefore he put all the puzzle
pieces in place to die withdignity.
So after you've had a stroke oror I think there are several
other like inciting incidents,that kind of like disqualify you
.
It's not the stroke.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
That disqualifies you .
But there are certain caveats,like you have to be able to
physically drink the it's it'slike a drink.
You have to be able tophysically drink it yourself.
You don't have to hold it.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
You don't have to hold it.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
You can drink through it.
You have to be able to swallowyeah, and you have to be able to
say like this is what I wantand yeah and disclaimer.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I feel like we need to say we are not doctors, we
are not.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
No, we are not promoting anybody killed
themselves.
No, we're just saying this wasa situation we found ourselves
in when bonnie knew that the endwas coming and she could see
her deterioration was inevitable, and when, and she made the
decision to choose when she, howand how and when it happened
(05:13):
and, as Kara said, this ismerely just to share our
experience and the steps we wentthrough, what it was like for
us, resources that we found itis it's a taboo subject.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
It is.
It's.
A lot of people areuncomfortable with it, which,
honestly, kind of makes me wantto talk about it more, of course
, but it is, and it's somethingthat we experienced first, very
firsthand, and I do.
I do want to talk about thisalso because it was beautiful,
absolutely, end of the day.
At the end of the day, the waythat she died was a lot more
(05:49):
peaceful than it would have beenabsolutely not only that,
because we knew already.
No, I'm just, my nose isrunning, I'm not crying me
neither, carrie.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
You know I'm a sympathetic crier.
It's if I think you're crying.
I'm gonna cry because we knewit was coming.
We had the luxury of being ableto have all these amazing
conversations, like we spent askthose questions.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
We spent a lot of time just sitting in her room at
the quote bar.
Yeah, because she couldn't goto the bar anymore or not even
like a restaurant and have shecouldn't leave the bedroom, she
couldn't walk.
She couldn't leave the house.
We brought the cheese plate andcrackers and wine and she still
wanted to have you know shewould have a little bit of a
(06:39):
glass of wine and we'd sit andtalk about, like, how do you
want us to honor your memory?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
what stories do you want us to tell?
Your memory, what stories doyou want us to tell?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
are there any that she specifically wanted you to
tell?
Speaker 2 (06:50):
oh, I have a whole.
I have a like on my computerbecause I would think about
questions like when we knew theend was, you know, even like six
months before I would go?
Oh god, that's something I wantto ask her, you know.
So we got to have thoseconversations and then, after
(07:10):
she passed, it was so helpfuland made the grief so much less
in that we knew it was what shewanted and how she wanted and
when she wanted, yeah, and thatmade it more bearable.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, you hear a lot of stories about what happens
when people die and I know,speaking personally, I was
nervous.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Oh God yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
I was nervous about being in the room.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Well, she was nervous too.
She was afraid it was going totraumatize us.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, she, because you hear about and this happened
to my neighbor.
My neighbor's dad hadParkinson's and he was the first
person I ever heard of thatactually chose to die with
dignity in the state ofCalifornia.
He wasn't the first one but hewas the first person that I
personally had met and she saidwhen he died the whole family
was there and he looked like hewas gone and then he went and,
(08:08):
like you hear about, like thedeath rattle or whatever.
He like breathed back to lifeand they were all sitting around
crying, you know, around hisbed, his deathbed, and then they
all, you know, they hear himcome back to life and then
they're all shocked and they'relaughing and they said it was
just the most bizarre experience.
And so we, I kind of figuredthat would happen.
I also told us it would take awhile, like it could take up to,
(08:32):
they said, anywhere from 30minutes to like five hours or
something like that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
I thought they even said like 20 hours.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, we were nervous about it, yeah.
Go ahead Because she wasnervous about it.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
We just don't know what to expect Right.
And her original plan was justto have you and I in the room
with her yeah, and Mike if hewanted to, yeah.
Her partner, yeah.
And then she, in typical Bonniefashion, changed the plan,
which is totally fine and herright to do, which is totally
fine and her right to do so.
(09:05):
She started the process becauseshe was afraid she'd already
lost use of her legs and she wasknew that at some point she was
going to lose use of her handsand being able to swallow, and
she just wanted to have itavailable when she wanted it.
(09:26):
And at that point, if that had,she was afraid she would wait
too late and not be able to getit, which is something that can
happen, and at this point.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
at that point she was already requiring 24-hour care,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
She was on hospice yes, which there's hospice care
and palliative care and shewas's hospice care and
palliative care and she was on ahospice and I you.
It has to be obviouslyprescribed by a doctor, but the
doctor has to basically sayyou're getting worse months,
you're probably gonna die.
I think it's a six monthprognosis.
(10:06):
Now that's.
That's not always the case.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Some people live for years past that right yeah in
her case, because she would haveended up basically trapped in
her own mind with a body thatwouldn't function and wouldn't
swallow.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
She would have been just trapped, yeah, in a body
that didn't work that her, asshe used to always say, my, my
mind is great and my body hastotally betrayed me.
Yeah, she's traitorous bitch.
Traitorous bitch, that body, um.
So her a doctor, who wasn't hernormal doctor, was an absolute
(10:42):
saint and was like yes, there's.
You know you might not die insix months, but you might, so I
am going to prescribe this, soit is there if you want it.
And hospice, I mean, thosepeople are angels.
They were incredible.
We're here in sonoma county.
We used um sutter provenancefor hospice and they are like 24
(11:06):
seven, anything you need.
They have people checking onyou.
They have a doctor.
They had therapists for us.
They had an amazing socialworker.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
We had to have group therapy with Bonnie before she
died Cause.
Part of the challenge was thatyou were giving you and Mike
were basically caregiving 24hours, and you and I had a
conversation one day.
There were several of us whothought she needed to go to a
facility where she could getcare.
yeah, if she was going to waitfor a long period of time, yeah,
(11:35):
we wanted her around as long aspossible absolutely but if that
was going to be months or yeah,or any period of time, she
needed more care than you guyscould reasonably provide.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Um, so we came to her with that idea.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, and she was pissed.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Oh, she told us to go fuck ourselves.
Yeah she, she didn't speak tome for like a whole afternoon
evening, Like I literally havenever seen her that mad at me.
Yeah, she was I thought I hadheard her call me Cara Bera, for
the so fucking upset yeah, shewas real fucking mad yeah, and
so, and then we had gotten to ascreaming match, because I heard
her screaming at you in thebedroom and then I came in and I
(12:09):
was like don't fucking talk toher like that.
And then she got mad at me andtold me to butt out and I like
this is not which, by the way.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
So fucking weird.
We howled with laughter aboutthis later that night, like none
of us are good at staying mad.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
No but we did have to call the therapists in.
Yeah, we had two therapistscome in and bonnie's a therapist
, yeah but we, the five of us,sat in the room with her and we
had a group therapy session totry to make ourselves all okay
again, and it turned out she wasprocessing.
She's an internal processor,which we're like.
Well, we didn't fucking know.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
You could have just told us we're daughters of
therapists.
We know what the fuck thatmeans.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Yeah, so we ended up sorting it out and she was
trying she was wrestling withwhen yeah, to do it because she
wanted to hang on as long aspossible, but she was teetering
on that line of being of knowingthat she was worsening.
Yeah and wait.
If she waited one day too long,she would have lost maybe lost
(13:10):
her ability to swallow and itwouldn't have been an option
anymore and once that door hasclosed, it does not reopen it's
not like she'd wake up the nextday and be like oh, I can
swallow today.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yeah, exactly so and there had been times, I'm sure I
called you and probably youknow, bawled at you.
There had been times I'm sure Icalled you and probably you
know, bawled at you.
There had been times in thepreceding months where I should
be like I can't do it anymore,I'm done, get me out of this
body.
Like I just want to be free ofthis body.
So it wasn't a well, I'mthinking about it and now I'm
making the decision.
(13:40):
We knew and from the time shegot diagnosed, her plan was, if
things got shitty, to be able totap out and not die of natural
causes.
And originally I think this wasmaybe even before we had the
right to die option inCalifornia.
She would tell me honey, youknow, I hear a heroin overdose
(14:01):
is a lovely way to go.
Like that's fine if you want to.
And I was like, well, ok, butlet's play this out, I have to
get you the heroin.
Overdose is a lovely way to go,like that's fine If you want to
.
And I was like, well, okay, butlet's play this out, I have to
get you the heroin.
I don't know where to getheroin.
And she was like, well, Iprobably know people who could
get heroin.
Like thinking of her clients,like I think I don't think we
should be calling your addictclients and then I'm in jail for
procuring your heroin Like thisis a bad idea.
(14:23):
If this is what you want to do,let's go through the proper
channels.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
And she did and she did.
And so eventually, we ended upin a scenario where she had
decided on a day Yep.
And everybody Wait let me shechanged the plan she wanted Go
ahead.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Let me back this up.
The people, jules, the socialworker here, in which, oh my God
, jules and she's a fellowdeadhead.
So, hi, jules, fare thee well.
Tip of the hat, salute, cheers,throwing confetti in the air.
She recommended a death doula,which we got from an amazing
(15:06):
organization called sorry, Iknew I was going to forget, it
is called End of Life Choices,california.
Their website iswwwendoflifechoicescaorg.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Which we'll link in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Doesn't it feel so cool to say that?
I mean, I'm sure we'll get overit, but right now it still
feels kind of cool.
They were amazing.
They have incredible volunteers.
We got matched up with avolunteer who we could not have
loved more and who had gonethrough this many times before.
I had been in the room where ithappened.
Um, don't sing hamilton.
I know it's so hard not to umI've never seen hamilton.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Well, we're gonna fix that that's it.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
That's it.
God damn it anyways.
Um, and she had said you know,I will be there with you that
day.
If you want, I will mix up thedrink, so you don't have to do
it.
If you don't want, I will handit to her if you don't want, um.
So she was really our shepherdthrough this whole process.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, it was incredibly helpful to have yeah,
their support.
So on the day, yes Well.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
First of all, there were a couple days where she was
like I'm thinking, maybe thisSunday, and then she was like I
don't know, it's kind of closeto Well, she was dead set on.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
I forget what day it was she was dead set on first.
It was sometime in june she wasdead it was juneteenth and I
was like mom, no, no, beforethat, oh, before that she was
set on a day in june it wasmike's birthday.
No, no, it was before thatbecause she couldn't she.
We found out that she couldn'tget the drugs delivered by that
day, remember and so that dayright, right, right she was set
that that was the day right wecouldn't get the drugs in time.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
And then once that day passed, she kind of locked
up and couldn't decide on a dayafter that, like she couldn't
decide which day after that.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
So we went back and forth.
It was Mike's birthday, it wastotally gung ho.
Then it was your Parker'sbirthday.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Parker's birthday.
Yeah, my son.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Yeah, I had.
I was the one that talked toher out of Juneteenth.
I was like I think that'salready somebody else, that's
other people's day, you don'tget to take that day.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
We kind of needed a day because at that point she
had decided we were going tohave several of the hospice
people there and the death doulapeople and we were going to
have we ended up with my dad.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Well, your dad definitely wanted to be there
and she was like, yeah, I'm okay, you know, uncle Rod, like
basically her brother, thenbruce other brother, my uncle
bruce wanted to come um.
Her mom, my mother's mom, wasthere.
God love her.
Yeah, um.
So originally she just wantedus in the room, but then she was
(17:56):
like it's okay with that.
Yeah, no, that's okay, that'sokay.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
So I think we had probably 20 20 people in that
room I don't know if it was thatmany, but I mean, maybe Her
room was full of people, yeah,and plants and flowers and
flowers.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, we got the exact flowers she wanted the
candles the scent.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
So paint everyone a picture of what Bonnie wanted
her death room to look like.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
She wanted soft candlelight.
Vanilla or rain scentedSandalwood was fine.
She had a list of scents thatwere fine.
Anything like woodsy, nopumpkin spice, anything she, she
, I had I think.
I said I had like a pumpkincedar one and she was like
(18:38):
questionable.
I was like you know what I cango find whatever.
She wanted lots of whiteflowers everywhere, um, white
snapdragons.
We had lilies.
We just went to the gardencenter and several garden
centers.
We went, yeah, and got all thewhite flowers we could find
remember, okay, so remember thefirst one we went to.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
We walked in and we got somebody to help us.
Oh, and you recognized her.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
No, I didn't recognize her, but I knew that.
I knew who she was because Iknew she had been a client of
mom's.
I had seen her before at thisbecause this particular garden
center was one that is veryclose to mom's where her house
was.
So I knew this person.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Yeah, and she was like oh, how is Bonnie?
And we were and we're like ohgod, actually yeah, and you
don't want to say like fine.
So we, we gave her the likequick and dirty, like version of
right.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
That's why we're here .
Yeah, um, and then she was likeI need a minute yeah, and that
was so I felt so bad.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
It was really awkward , but she thanked us, yeah, and
she was really sad and like, ohmy god, give her all my love and
let her all the flowers knowhow well I'm doing.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
So yeah, she got to say her goodbye she even said
she was like I would not be here.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
I feel like I might not be here like she.
I definitely would not.
Be well, but, um, but, yeah,like she was a lifesaver.
Yeah, um, god damn it fuck,it's okay.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Um, so we got all the things yeah and um rearranged
her bedroom and put her no, wedidn't rearrange her bedroom, we
, we got her out of her, out ofher hospital bed because the
hospice she had to have ahospital bed at that point and
we had put the hospital bed inher bedroom next to the bed that
was her and her partner, sothey could sleep in the same
(20:29):
room and if I was spending thenight there I could yeah have a
place to lie your head.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Um, so she got in her big bed.
You got on one side of her, Igot on the other side.
Everyone had um gathered.
Yes, come, traveled and gottenthere.
Yes, we sang songs.
We sang some songs.
Did we sing before or justafter?
Speaker 2 (20:50):
we sang her across.
We sang after she, yeah, yeah,after she drank the, the shake
it looks like.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
So it's like a grayish kind of gritty
concoction of several differenttypes of deadly medication and
she demanded to have it in awine glass.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yes, which?
I was so nervous at that pointin time, I mean beyond what
we've just talked about already,beyond just Well, I was nervous
even when they delivered thebox with the meds in it, because
I was like this box is thingsthat will 100 kill you.
Yeah, it was scary, um, but butit's not like the meds where
(21:29):
you know, oh, you drop it on theground and then the dog drinks
it.
Like you have to mix, yeah, youhave to make a very special
concoction watered down concrete.
Yeah, it doesn't look great andI don't think it tastes great.
So they recommend gettingpopsicles.
We chose sorbet yeah, shewanted a sorbet, um, because
they want you to have somethingcold that tastes good.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
That numbs your that numbs your tongue a little bit,
so then you can drink the stuff.
Yeah and I was nervous that shewould taste it and then be like
, oh, I can't do it, yeah, butthen partially have ingested,
like how much is enough?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I don't think I wasn't worried about that.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
I was worried she was going to drink part of it and
then like put herself in a comaor something, but not like
finish the job, not actually offherself, but she freaking.
I fed her the sorbet, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
She took the goblet let me back up for one second
just because she had set a fewdays.
And then it wasn't right andCara and I were both like we
can't.
If it's not a hell, yes, it's ano.
Yeah, if today is not the day,then today is not the day, like
it's only the day when you'relike hell yes, it's today.
And then there was a hell yesday, yeah, so you handed her by
the time we did get to this day,she was resolute.
(22:45):
Very resolute.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
After she decided on the day yeah, and she was like
dead set on the day yeah, andshe was like dead, dead set on
the day.
She did not go back tovacillating at all.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
No.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
And that's when she started.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
She was kind of excited.
The morphotinies.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, they gave memorphine, so um every well,
whenever the fuck she wanted, um, she would ask for a more.
We fatinis, we would make herlike a cute drink with morphine
(23:18):
in it.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Do you remember the first time I gave it to her?
Speaker 2 (23:18):
no, oh my god, I gave it to her and you know she
drank it and we were all talkingand laughing and remember she
was like she would start likekind of talking with her eyes
closed but laughing her ass off,and she goes honey, come here,
I want to tell you something.
I'm like what.
So I get up real closer and shegoes this, this morphine is
shit.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
And you know, when it got to a couple of days before
the hospice was like give herall the morphine she wants.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
What's she going to do?
Make her comfortable, getaddicted?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah, and she said she's like I'm going to totally
die.
A hardcore drug addict, likefine.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, that was funny yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
You get to have all the morphine you want.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
God, I miss her, me too, so fast forward to feeding,
numbing her taste buds withmango sorbet.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Mango sorbet yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
And then she was handed the goblet and she
freaking just chugged it.
She chugged it like I think Iwas in my head going chug, chug,
chug, because I didn't want herto quit partway through.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
It was like she was doing a keg stand at UCSB.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yes, and then she needed more sorbet.
We gave her more sorbet to kindof cover up the flavor.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
And they tell you that after you drink the drink,
it can take anywhere from.
They told us 30 minutes.
Well, they said relatively soon.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
You, you drift off like five, ten minutes.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
You drift off right isn't that part of it.
Well, they said it.
They said it can take anywherefrom yeah, maybe, yeah, you're
right, maybe they said you driftoff, like, but 30 minutes to 20
hours is when you actuallyactually you, actually yeah, and
and they have to be therebecause someone has to pronounce
, do they?
have to be there, or was thatsomething that we asked no,
(25:00):
someone the death doula does nothave to be there, but there has
to be like a nurse or a doctorthere because someone has to
pronounce time of death.
Okay, um, and so she drank thestuff and in five minutes I was,
she was sleeping peacefully.
Well, no, in five minutes I waslike I think she's gone and
they were like no, no, no, it'sreally early.
(25:21):
And I said can you check?
And they went and they likefelt for a heartbeat, like got a
mirror for breath stuff andthey were like no, she's gone,
she was out in five minutes andthey were like that fast, that
fast.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
I don't think it was that fast, it was I guarantee,
because remember they were like.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
I was like have you ever seen it that fast?
Well, I do remember.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
I know that they had never seen it and they were like
there was no coughing, nosputtering like once.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
No, they were like she was already she was gone,
yeah, and a couple days beforeshe started getting excited, she
was like I'm ready for the nextgreat adventure.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
And it was really strange to watch the life go out
.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Yes, it can, can confirm even when you know
someone, yeah, even when youknow someone really well.
Like dead people do not looklike alive people.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
She did not look like herself anymore even no, the
soul, the soul just, which iswhy it wasn't that weird to sit
in the room yeah, with a deadbody.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Yeah, because they then there has to be legally a
body collection service.
Um, and we had, we were feelingvery protective of her former
home, yeah, her formersarcophagi that the soul walked
her meat suit that we all, youknow, walk around in um.
(26:34):
So you and I stayed in the roomtill the the official people
came to remove the body and it.
I thought it was going to bereally weird.
I didn't want to look at herthat much afterwards because she
just looked so different.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, it was strange, um but then, yeah, then they
took her body away and that wasthat.
Yeah, and then you and I wentoutside and sat on the the
little walkway behind her housebut yeah, her, her house back
backs up to a creek and there'sa little bench yeah, we sat on
the bench and we saw that deeryeah, which we're pretty sure
(27:11):
was her yeah, it came and likekind of nodded at us, yeah, and
like stared at us for a whileand then hung out for a minute
and took off.
Yeah, I'm still waiting to get.
Well, I did have a bird poop onme, on my hand in Mexico.
Oh really yeah, but it was justthe tiniest little poop.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I'm not that up is because one of the questions
that we asked was well you knowif you plan on contacting us
like later, later, yeah, she'slike, oh, I'm gonna contact you
guys from the other side andwe're like, well, how will we
know?
Like if, if it's a bird, howwill we know it's you?
And she said, oh, I'll poop onyou yeah, so we're we're
counting on that, yeah, um, Ihave not gotten pooped on.
I do find myself like I'llstand under a bird and not
(27:57):
necessarily move away.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
I'm hoping for it, yeah.
I'm like, literally, I'm downat the pier hanging out
underneath the posts.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Well, that's just sad .
I sent you a video from SantaCruz when I was there.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
You did, and I was like look at these birds.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
That's just sad.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
But yeah, so we're still waiting for that to happen
.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
But I will say if anyone has any questions about
any of this, we are more thanhappy to answer any questions.
We are more than happy to talkabout, expound on any aspect and
we want to be advocates, uhyeah, for this process and I I'm
so happy we live in californiawhere it was an option, because
(28:40):
we know that's not true for someplaces yeah, we do.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
We miss her.
Do we wish she was still here?
Speaker 2 (28:47):
yes, but not under the circumstances that she would
be if she was still here todayit would be so fucking grim, she
would be so pissed and she andyou know, like I said before,
she was ready, it's what shewanted, she was getting excited.
You know, I don't know whatcomes next, but I'm excited to
find out and I'm ready for thenext great adventure.
(29:10):
And even if there's notadventure which you know, I
think there is, and shecertainly felt that way, even if
there wasn't great adventure,what she, the situation she was
in, she could not do anymore,would not do anymore and should
not have had to do.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah, she really did not want to leave you or you,
but she very effectively set usup to take care of each other
absolutely, and I'm sure shehence.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Hence the scavenger hunt that she left us.
Hence this podcast, hence deadmom scavenger hunt.
Yeah, she left us a list oftasks the scavenger hunt.
If you want to hear more abouthow this started, you can listen
to episode one, where we talkabout it.
Um, go up on some tangentsabout it, but we try to explain
the dead mom scavenger.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Yeah, yeah, I don't.
She didn't have like.
Doing a podcast together wasnot on her list of requirements
but I have to imagine she'd bevery excited, oh God, I think
that we're spending this muchtime together, absolutely.
Fighting about microphones andthings like well, we're just
(30:22):
getting, we're getting to knowour mics our magic mics um what
else you'd be?
Happy to know that.
So hospice um death doula, uhoh oh, banana talk about the
banana okay, this is anotherthing that people should know
that we really need to talkabout.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah.
So there, when you no longerhave control over your faculties
in terms of urinary faculties,urinary faculties, yeah, um,
number one and number two.
Number two is easier to dealwith because you kind of know
it's happened usually and youknow there is a smell and you
(30:59):
can use a diaper and get peoplechanged up, but often with
peeing you can't feel it andit's just wet and you don't
really know, not good for theskin, not good for the skin.
You can get crazy like UTIs,and when you're in that position
(31:20):
it's just a real problem.
And a lot of women, as they getolder, kind of, you know those
muscles aren't as, yeah.
But if you're bed bound, ifyou're bed bound, yeah, and you
can't control your urine, andyou can't control.
There is a device that it lookslike a cotton banana.
It looks like a very largetampon that has a little tube
(31:44):
connected to it that goes to apump, like a little machine
that's about the size of a shoebox, sitting on its side, that
sits right next to the bed.
We called it the banana um, andthe actual banana part is
disposable.
And this was like a godsend forher, because you the you know
(32:07):
bananas are single use and onceit's used up, you just take that
one out and like take it offthe tube, get a new one, put it
back on and put it in place, iton the area, place it on the
area which is right where thepee would come out.
I'm sure feel free to skip overthis part if this isn't what
you hear about.
But when kara says, spread thelabia, this is what she's
(32:29):
talking about, because if youreally want to get it in the
exact right position thank godyou guys can't see below here,
because I'm actually like mimingthis on my own self um, you
have to get it right there.
Um, but I forgot.
I wish I could remember what itwas actually called, do you?
No, I don't.
Um, it's sadly it is notcovered by insurance.
(32:51):
It should be, and they're notthat uh cheap.
She would have had to have acatheter otherwise.
Yes, otherwise you have to havea catheter.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Which comes with its own set of issues.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
This is an external catheter.
Um, let me see if I can findthe name of it, but it is
technically an external catheter.
Um, hold vamp while I look.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Look for this, yeah having to have a catheter.
A traditional catheter wouldhave come with its own set of
pure wick complications the purewick system p-u-r-e-w-i-c-k.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
their um website is pure wick at homecom.
It is an amazing system.
Um yeah, external catheter uh,for women.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Yeah, so it's just.
That was just a sidebar,because we talk a lot about the
banana.
We had a lot of jokes about thebanana and spreading the labia
because Christie would have todo that.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah, To tuck it in there.
Well, to get it in the rightspot, because obviously you want
the person who has to have thisto be as comfortable as
possible, and she was like thisbanana is the shit, yeah so that
was yeah that's the banana.
Uh, so what else?
Anything like I said, feel freeto contact us.
(34:06):
Oh, um, where can people?
Speaker 1 (34:08):
find us, kara.
You can find us on Instagram atdmshpod, that's at dmshpod.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
If you have questions , you can email us at dmshpod at
gmailcom Great.
And if people want to contactyou personally on the socials,
do you want to give that out orno?
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Sure, I mean, I'm on Instagram at Cara C A R a dot
Steinman S T E I N M A N N,which I will link because
obviously that's a lot.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
I don't use my personal Instagram that much, I
only use my work one.
But feel free to contact me onthat.
Um, that's the one I check andit is at drugstore cowgirl
jewelry on the instagram.
Again, that's at drugstorecowgirl jewelry on the gram and
also the tiktok.
I mean, I'm also on tiktok atkara steinman.
(35:04):
I think that's it.
Hopefully I didn't say um toomany times.
I don't care okay, no, itdoesn't care, um, that's you
don't care, I don't care, that'sDeath, doulas, and this is Dead
.
Mom Scavenger Hunt, thanks forjoining bye.
Welcome back to Dead Mom Scavenger Hunt.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I'm Christmas and I'm Kara, and today we are going to
talk about death, doulas andend-of-life choices, and part of
what started us on this DeadMom Scavenger Hunt journey that
we're on is that our mom wasdiagnosed with MS and over many
years her disease got worse andworse and worse and she decided
(00:28):
that she wanted to tap out anddid not want to end up
completely vegetative in termsof her body, I guess not
vegetative, but completelybasically paralyzed from the
neck down.
Yeah, basically paralyzed fromthe neck down.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yeah For those of you , for anyone listening, who has
been lucky enough not to have MStouch their life.
Yes, it eventually does, insome cases, progress.
Yeah, to the point where yourthroat muscles you can't swallow
you can't move it.
It doesn't it like destroy themyelin sheath yes, your nerves?
It destroys the myelin sheathof your nerves, or?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
something like that.
It destroys the myelin sheathof your nerves and it kind of
usually starts where your legsdon't work and then your hands
don't work and you can't feedyourself and you can't go to the
bathroom by yourself and it's areally, really shitty way to
die.
And can I just say a resoundingfuck MS.
(01:23):
Yeah, I second that.
But one of the good parts aboutMS and also really shitty parts
about MS at the end is thatyour brain is perfect.
Yeah, your mind is all there,so you are completely aware.
And when you can't talk anymore, you're completely aware,
(01:47):
completely aware, um, and whenyou can't talk anymore, you're
completely aware.
And, as I said, it's it's oneof the probably the worst
diseases to die from.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So it's one of those classes of diseases that you can
in california.
In california there are well,let me back up there's lots of
diseases that are awful, like um.
Lu Gehrig's disease is terrible.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Parkinson's.
Parkinson's Like cancer certaincancers.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
When you are terminal in the state of California, you
can make the choice to die withdignity.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, it's called the end of life option is the law
that's on the books.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
And a lot of people know this, from it being an
option in Oregon and Washington,I believe.
But a lot of people know this,from it being an option in
Oregon and Washington, I believe.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
They started it yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Yeah, but we followed suit, as California often does,
yes, and everyone probablyfirst heard about it, probably
like Dr Kevorkian.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah.
Which was compassionate release.
Basically yes, and it is acompletely different it sounds
dark.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
It does sound dark, but when you're facing these,
when you know that you're goingto die and it's going to be
really ugly, you might want totap out on your own terms.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yes, and when we think about, you know, other
beings that we love, like ourbeloved family pets, pets we
don't want them to suffer.
Yet in some states, when it'sapparent you are forced to watch
them suffer yeah, which I thinkI can speak for cara, when I we
(03:18):
both think that's a tragedy anda travesty and that people
should have control over thatand choices of what they want to
do and have it be peaceful,without having to resort to
something like a gun or anon-medical overdose or
something that's really extremeand that you don't have
(03:39):
resources that you have, like wehave here in California with
the right to die option.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Or in my father-in-law's case, he was
diagnosed with terminal cancer.
He had liver cancer and hewanted to.
He basically ended up having tostarve himself to death, to die
, because he was in.
He was bed bound in a VAhospital and he didn't go
through the steps.
There are many steps you haveto go through.
(04:08):
You have to kind of like youcan't just one day decide you
want to die with dignity.
No, there are steps and ithelps to have advocacy.
And he did not.
He ended up having a strokebefore he put all the puzzle
pieces in place to die withdignity.
So after you've had a stroke oror I think there are several
other like inciting incidents,that kind of like disqualify you
.
It's not the stroke.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
That disqualifies you .
But there are certain caveats,like you have to be able to
physically drink the it's it'slike a drink.
You have to be able tophysically drink it yourself.
You don't have to hold it.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
You don't have to hold it.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
You can drink through it.
You have to be able to swallowyeah, and you have to be able to
say like this is what I wantand yeah and disclaimer.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I feel like we need to say we are not doctors, we
are not.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
No, we are not promoting anybody killed
themselves.
No, we're just saying this wasa situation we found ourselves
in when bonnie knew that the endwas coming and she could see
her deterioration was inevitable, and when, and she made the
decision to choose when she, howand how and when it happened
(05:13):
and, as Kara said, this ismerely just to share our
experience and the steps we wentthrough, what it was like for
us, resources that we found itis it's a taboo subject.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
It is.
It's.
A lot of people areuncomfortable with it, which,
honestly, kind of makes me wantto talk about it more, of course
, but it is, and it's somethingthat we experienced first, very
firsthand, and I do.
I do want to talk about thisalso because it was beautiful,
absolutely, end of the day.
At the end of the day, the waythat she died was a lot more
(05:49):
peaceful than it would have beenabsolutely not only that,
because we knew already.
No, I'm just, my nose isrunning, I'm not crying me
neither, carrie.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
You know I'm a sympathetic crier.
It's if I think you're crying.
I'm gonna cry because we knewit was coming.
We had the luxury of being ableto have all these amazing
conversations, like we spent askthose questions.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
We spent a lot of time just sitting in her room at
the quote bar.
Yeah, because she couldn't goto the bar anymore or not even
like a restaurant and have shecouldn't leave the bedroom, she
couldn't walk.
She couldn't leave the house.
We brought the cheese plate andcrackers and wine and she still
wanted to have you know shewould have a little bit of a
(06:39):
glass of wine and we'd sit andtalk about, like, how do you
want us to honor your memory?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
what stories do you want us to tell?
Your memory, what stories doyou want us to tell?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
are there any that she specifically wanted you to
tell?
Speaker 2 (06:50):
oh, I have a whole.
I have a like on my computerbecause I would think about
questions like when we knew theend was, you know, even like six
months before I would go?
Oh god, that's something I wantto ask her, you know.
So we got to have thoseconversations and then, after
(07:10):
she passed, it was so helpfuland made the grief so much less
in that we knew it was what shewanted and how she wanted and
when she wanted, yeah, and thatmade it more bearable.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, you hear a lot of stories about what happens
when people die and I know,speaking personally, I was
nervous.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Oh God yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
I was nervous about being in the room.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Well, she was nervous too.
She was afraid it was going totraumatize us.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, she, because you hear about and this happened
to my neighbor.
My neighbor's dad hadParkinson's and he was the first
person I ever heard of thatactually chose to die with
dignity in the state ofCalifornia.
He wasn't the first one but hewas the first person that I
personally had met and she saidwhen he died the whole family
was there and he looked like hewas gone and then he went and,
(08:08):
like you hear about, like thedeath rattle or whatever.
He like breathed back to lifeand they were all sitting around
crying, you know, around hisbed, his deathbed, and then they
all, you know, they hear himcome back to life and then
they're all shocked and they'relaughing and they said it was
just the most bizarre experience.
And so we, I kind of figuredthat would happen.
I also told us it would take awhile, like it could take up to,
(08:32):
they said, anywhere from 30minutes to like five hours or
something like that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
I thought they even said like 20 hours.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, we were nervous about it, yeah.
Go ahead Because she wasnervous about it.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
We just don't know what to expect Right.
And her original plan was justto have you and I in the room
with her yeah, and Mike if hewanted to, yeah.
Her partner, yeah.
And then she, in typical Bonniefashion, changed the plan,
which is totally fine and herright to do, which is totally
fine and her right to do so.
(09:05):
She started the process becauseshe was afraid she'd already
lost use of her legs and she wasknew that at some point she was
going to lose use of her handsand being able to swallow, and
she just wanted to have itavailable when she wanted it.
(09:26):
And at that point, if that had,she was afraid she would wait
too late and not be able to getit, which is something that can
happen, and at this point.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
at that point she was already requiring 24-hour care,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
She was on hospice yes, which there's hospice care
and palliative care and shewas's hospice care and
palliative care and she was on ahospice and I you.
It has to be obviouslyprescribed by a doctor, but the
doctor has to basically sayyou're getting worse months,
you're probably gonna die.
I think it's a six monthprognosis.
(10:06):
Now that's.
That's not always the case.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Some people live for years past that right yeah in
her case, because she would haveended up basically trapped in
her own mind with a body thatwouldn't function and wouldn't
swallow.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
She would have been just trapped, yeah, in a body
that didn't work that her, asshe used to always say, my, my
mind is great and my body hastotally betrayed me.
Yeah, she's traitorous bitch.
Traitorous bitch, that body, um.
So her a doctor, who wasn't hernormal doctor, was an absolute
(10:42):
saint and was like yes, there's.
You know you might not die insix months, but you might, so I
am going to prescribe this, soit is there if you want it.
And hospice, I mean, thosepeople are angels.
They were incredible.
We're here in sonoma county.
We used um sutter provenancefor hospice and they are like 24
(11:06):
seven, anything you need.
They have people checking onyou.
They have a doctor.
They had therapists for us.
They had an amazing socialworker.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
We had to have group therapy with Bonnie before she
died Cause.
Part of the challenge was thatyou were giving you and Mike
were basically caregiving 24hours, and you and I had a
conversation one day.
There were several of us whothought she needed to go to a
facility where she could getcare.
yeah, if she was going to waitfor a long period of time, yeah,
(11:35):
we wanted her around as long aspossible absolutely but if that
was going to be months or yeah,or any period of time, she
needed more care than you guyscould reasonably provide.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Um, so we came to her with that idea.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, and she was pissed.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Oh, she told us to go fuck ourselves.
Yeah she, she didn't speak tome for like a whole afternoon
evening, Like I literally havenever seen her that mad at me.
Yeah, she was I thought I hadheard her call me Cara Bera, for
the so fucking upset yeah, shewas real fucking mad yeah, and
so, and then we had gotten to ascreaming match, because I heard
her screaming at you in thebedroom and then I came in and I
(12:09):
was like don't fucking talk toher like that.
And then she got mad at me andtold me to butt out and I like
this is not which, by the way.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
So fucking weird.
We howled with laughter aboutthis later that night, like none
of us are good at staying mad.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
No but we did have to call the therapists in.
Yeah, we had two therapistscome in and bonnie's a therapist
, yeah but we, the five of us,sat in the room with her and we
had a group therapy session totry to make ourselves all okay
again, and it turned out she wasprocessing.
She's an internal processor,which we're like.
Well, we didn't fucking know.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
You could have just told us we're daughters of
therapists.
We know what the fuck thatmeans.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Yeah, so we ended up sorting it out and she was
trying she was wrestling withwhen yeah, to do it because she
wanted to hang on as long aspossible, but she was teetering
on that line of being of knowingthat she was worsening.
Yeah and wait.
If she waited one day too long,she would have lost maybe lost
(13:10):
her ability to swallow and itwouldn't have been an option
anymore and once that door hasclosed, it does not reopen it's
not like she'd wake up the nextday and be like oh, I can
swallow today.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yeah, exactly so and there had been times, I'm sure I
called you and probably youknow, bawled at you.
There had been times I'm sure Icalled you and probably you
know, bawled at you.
There had been times in thepreceding months where I should
be like I can't do it anymore,I'm done, get me out of this
body.
Like I just want to be free ofthis body.
So it wasn't a well, I'mthinking about it and now I'm
making the decision.
(13:40):
We knew and from the time shegot diagnosed, her plan was, if
things got shitty, to be able totap out and not die of natural
causes.
And originally I think this wasmaybe even before we had the
right to die option inCalifornia.
She would tell me honey, youknow, I hear a heroin overdose
(14:01):
is a lovely way to go.
Like that's fine if you want to.
And I was like, well, ok, butlet's play this out, I have to
get you the heroin.
Overdose is a lovely way to go,like that's fine If you want to
.
And I was like, well, okay, butlet's play this out, I have to
get you the heroin.
I don't know where to getheroin.
And she was like, well, Iprobably know people who could
get heroin.
Like thinking of her clients,like I think I don't think we
should be calling your addictclients and then I'm in jail for
procuring your heroin Like thisis a bad idea.
(14:23):
If this is what you want to do,let's go through the proper
channels.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
And she did and she did.
And so eventually, we ended upin a scenario where she had
decided on a day Yep.
And everybody Wait let me shechanged the plan she wanted Go
ahead.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Let me back this up.
The people, jules, the socialworker here, in which, oh my God
, jules and she's a fellowdeadhead.
So, hi, jules, fare thee well.
Tip of the hat, salute, cheers,throwing confetti in the air.
She recommended a death doula,which we got from an amazing
(15:06):
organization called sorry, Iknew I was going to forget, it
is called End of Life Choices,california.
Their website iswwwendoflifechoicescaorg.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Which we'll link in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Doesn't it feel so cool to say that?
I mean, I'm sure we'll get overit, but right now it still
feels kind of cool.
They were amazing.
They have incredible volunteers.
We got matched up with avolunteer who we could not have
loved more and who had gonethrough this many times before.
I had been in the room where ithappened.
Um, don't sing hamilton.
I know it's so hard not to umI've never seen hamilton.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Well, we're gonna fix that that's it.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
That's it.
God damn it anyways.
Um, and she had said you know,I will be there with you that
day.
If you want, I will mix up thedrink, so you don't have to do
it.
If you don't want, I will handit to her if you don't want, um.
So she was really our shepherdthrough this whole process.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, it was incredibly helpful to have yeah,
their support.
So on the day, yes Well.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
First of all, there were a couple days where she was
like I'm thinking, maybe thisSunday, and then she was like I
don't know, it's kind of closeto Well, she was dead set on.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
I forget what day it was she was dead set on first.
It was sometime in june she wasdead it was juneteenth and I
was like mom, no, no, beforethat, oh, before that she was
set on a day in june it wasmike's birthday.
No, no, it was before thatbecause she couldn't she.
We found out that she couldn'tget the drugs delivered by that
day, remember and so that dayright, right, right she was set
that that was the day right wecouldn't get the drugs in time.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
And then once that day passed, she kind of locked
up and couldn't decide on a dayafter that, like she couldn't
decide which day after that.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
So we went back and forth.
It was Mike's birthday, it wastotally gung ho.
Then it was your Parker'sbirthday.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Parker's birthday.
Yeah, my son.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Yeah, I had.
I was the one that talked toher out of Juneteenth.
I was like I think that'salready somebody else, that's
other people's day, you don'tget to take that day.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
We kind of needed a day because at that point she
had decided we were going tohave several of the hospice
people there and the death doulapeople and we were going to
have we ended up with my dad.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Well, your dad definitely wanted to be there
and she was like, yeah, I'm okay, you know, uncle Rod, like
basically her brother, thenbruce other brother, my uncle
bruce wanted to come um.
Her mom, my mother's mom, wasthere.
God love her.
Yeah, um.
So originally she just wantedus in the room, but then she was
(17:56):
like it's okay with that.
Yeah, no, that's okay, that'sokay.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
So I think we had probably 20 20 people in that
room I don't know if it was thatmany, but I mean, maybe Her
room was full of people, yeah,and plants and flowers and
flowers.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, we got the exact flowers she wanted the
candles the scent.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
So paint everyone a picture of what Bonnie wanted
her death room to look like.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
She wanted soft candlelight.
Vanilla or rain scentedSandalwood was fine.
She had a list of scents thatwere fine.
Anything like woodsy, nopumpkin spice, anything she, she
, I had I think.
I said I had like a pumpkincedar one and she was like
(18:38):
questionable.
I was like you know what I cango find whatever.
She wanted lots of whiteflowers everywhere, um, white
snapdragons.
We had lilies.
We just went to the gardencenter and several garden
centers.
We went, yeah, and got all thewhite flowers we could find
remember, okay, so remember thefirst one we went to.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
We walked in and we got somebody to help us.
Oh, and you recognized her.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
No, I didn't recognize her, but I knew that.
I knew who she was because Iknew she had been a client of
mom's.
I had seen her before at thisbecause this particular garden
center was one that is veryclose to mom's where her house
was.
So I knew this person.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Yeah, and she was like oh, how is Bonnie?
And we were and we're like ohgod, actually yeah, and you
don't want to say like fine.
So we, we gave her the likequick and dirty, like version of
right.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
That's why we're here .
Yeah, um, and then she was likeI need a minute yeah, and that
was so I felt so bad.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
It was really awkward , but she thanked us, yeah, and
she was really sad and like, ohmy god, give her all my love and
let her all the flowers knowhow well I'm doing.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
So yeah, she got to say her goodbye she even said
she was like I would not be here.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
I feel like I might not be here like she.
I definitely would not.
Be well, but, um, but, yeah,like she was a lifesaver.
Yeah, um, god damn it fuck,it's okay.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Um, so we got all the things yeah and um rearranged
her bedroom and put her no, wedidn't rearrange her bedroom, we
, we got her out of her, out ofher hospital bed because the
hospice she had to have ahospital bed at that point and
we had put the hospital bed inher bedroom next to the bed that
was her and her partner, sothey could sleep in the same
(20:29):
room and if I was spending thenight there I could yeah have a
place to lie your head.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Um, so she got in her big bed.
You got on one side of her, Igot on the other side.
Everyone had um gathered.
Yes, come, traveled and gottenthere.
Yes, we sang songs.
We sang some songs.
Did we sing before or justafter?
Speaker 2 (20:50):
we sang her across.
We sang after she, yeah, yeah,after she drank the, the shake
it looks like.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
So it's like a grayish kind of gritty
concoction of several differenttypes of deadly medication and
she demanded to have it in awine glass.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yes, which?
I was so nervous at that pointin time, I mean beyond what
we've just talked about already,beyond just Well, I was nervous
even when they delivered thebox with the meds in it, because
I was like this box is thingsthat will 100 kill you.
Yeah, it was scary, um, but butit's not like the meds where
(21:29):
you know, oh, you drop it on theground and then the dog drinks
it.
Like you have to mix, yeah, youhave to make a very special
concoction watered down concrete.
Yeah, it doesn't look great andI don't think it tastes great.
So they recommend gettingpopsicles.
We chose sorbet yeah, shewanted a sorbet, um, because
they want you to have somethingcold that tastes good.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
That numbs your that numbs your tongue a little bit,
so then you can drink the stuff.
Yeah and I was nervous that shewould taste it and then be like
, oh, I can't do it, yeah, butthen partially have ingested,
like how much is enough?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I don't think I wasn't worried about that.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
I was worried she was going to drink part of it and
then like put herself in a comaor something, but not like
finish the job, not actually offherself, but she freaking.
I fed her the sorbet, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
She took the goblet let me back up for one second
just because she had set a fewdays.
And then it wasn't right andCara and I were both like we
can't.
If it's not a hell, yes, it's ano.
Yeah, if today is not the day,then today is not the day, like
it's only the day when you'relike hell yes, it's today.
And then there was a hell yesday, yeah, so you handed her by
the time we did get to this day,she was resolute.
(22:45):
Very resolute.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
After she decided on the day yeah, and she was like
dead set on the day yeah, andshe was like dead, dead set on
the day.
She did not go back tovacillating at all.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
No.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
And that's when she started.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
She was kind of excited.
The morphotinies.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, they gave memorphine, so um every well,
whenever the fuck she wanted, um, she would ask for a more.
We fatinis, we would make herlike a cute drink with morphine
(23:18):
in it.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Do you remember the first time I gave it to her?
Speaker 2 (23:18):
no, oh my god, I gave it to her and you know she
drank it and we were all talkingand laughing and remember she
was like she would start likekind of talking with her eyes
closed but laughing her ass off,and she goes honey, come here,
I want to tell you something.
I'm like what.
So I get up real closer and shegoes this, this morphine is
shit.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
And you know, when it got to a couple of days before
the hospice was like give herall the morphine she wants.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
What's she going to do?
Make her comfortable, getaddicted?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah, and she said she's like I'm going to totally
die.
A hardcore drug addict, likefine.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, that was funny yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
You get to have all the morphine you want.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
God, I miss her, me too, so fast forward to feeding,
numbing her taste buds withmango sorbet.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Mango sorbet yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
And then she was handed the goblet and she
freaking just chugged it.
She chugged it like I think Iwas in my head going chug, chug,
chug, because I didn't want herto quit partway through.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
It was like she was doing a keg stand at UCSB.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yes, and then she needed more sorbet.
We gave her more sorbet to kindof cover up the flavor.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
And they tell you that after you drink the drink,
it can take anywhere from.
They told us 30 minutes.
Well, they said relatively soon.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
You, you drift off like five, ten minutes.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
You drift off right isn't that part of it.
Well, they said it.
They said it can take anywherefrom yeah, maybe, yeah, you're
right, maybe they said you driftoff, like, but 30 minutes to 20
hours is when you actuallyactually you, actually yeah, and
and they have to be therebecause someone has to pronounce
, do they?
have to be there, or was thatsomething that we asked no,
(25:00):
someone the death doula does nothave to be there, but there has
to be like a nurse or a doctorthere because someone has to
pronounce time of death.
Okay, um, and so she drank thestuff and in five minutes I was,
she was sleeping peacefully.
Well, no, in five minutes I waslike I think she's gone and
they were like no, no, no, it'sreally early.
(25:21):
And I said can you check?
And they went and they likefelt for a heartbeat, like got a
mirror for breath stuff andthey were like no, she's gone,
she was out in five minutes andthey were like that fast, that
fast.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
I don't think it was that fast, it was I guarantee,
because remember they were like.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
I was like have you ever seen it that fast?
Well, I do remember.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
I know that they had never seen it and they were like
there was no coughing, nosputtering like once.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
No, they were like she was already she was gone,
yeah, and a couple days beforeshe started getting excited, she
was like I'm ready for the nextgreat adventure.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
And it was really strange to watch the life go out
.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Yes, it can, can confirm even when you know
someone, yeah, even when youknow someone really well.
Like dead people do not looklike alive people.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
She did not look like herself anymore even no, the
soul, the soul just, which iswhy it wasn't that weird to sit
in the room yeah, with a deadbody.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Yeah, because they then there has to be legally a
body collection service.
Um, and we had, we were feelingvery protective of her former
home, yeah, her formersarcophagi that the soul walked
her meat suit that we all, youknow, walk around in um.
(26:34):
So you and I stayed in the roomtill the the official people
came to remove the body and it.
I thought it was going to bereally weird.
I didn't want to look at herthat much afterwards because she
just looked so different.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, it was strange, um but then, yeah, then they
took her body away and that wasthat.
Yeah, and then you and I wentoutside and sat on the the
little walkway behind her housebut yeah, her, her house back
backs up to a creek and there'sa little bench yeah, we sat on
the bench and we saw that deeryeah, which we're pretty sure
(27:11):
was her yeah, it came and likekind of nodded at us, yeah, and
like stared at us for a whileand then hung out for a minute
and took off.
Yeah, I'm still waiting to get.
Well, I did have a bird poop onme, on my hand in Mexico.
Oh really yeah, but it was justthe tiniest little poop.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I'm not that up is because one of the questions
that we asked was well you knowif you plan on contacting us
like later, later, yeah, she'slike, oh, I'm gonna contact you
guys from the other side andwe're like, well, how will we
know?
Like if, if it's a bird, howwill we know it's you?
And she said, oh, I'll poop onyou yeah, so we're we're
counting on that, yeah, um, Ihave not gotten pooped on.
I do find myself like I'llstand under a bird and not
(27:57):
necessarily move away.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
I'm hoping for it, yeah.
I'm like, literally, I'm downat the pier hanging out
underneath the posts.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Well, that's just sad .
I sent you a video from SantaCruz when I was there.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
You did, and I was like look at these birds.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
That's just sad.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
But yeah, so we're still waiting for that to happen
.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
But I will say if anyone has any questions about
any of this, we are more thanhappy to answer any questions.
We are more than happy to talkabout, expound on any aspect and
we want to be advocates, uhyeah, for this process and I I'm
so happy we live in californiawhere it was an option, because
(28:40):
we know that's not true for someplaces yeah, we do.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
We miss her.
Do we wish she was still here?
Speaker 2 (28:47):
yes, but not under the circumstances that she would
be if she was still here todayit would be so fucking grim, she
would be so pissed and she andyou know, like I said before,
she was ready, it's what shewanted, she was getting excited.
You know, I don't know whatcomes next, but I'm excited to
find out and I'm ready for thenext great adventure.
(29:10):
And even if there's notadventure which you know, I
think there is, and shecertainly felt that way, even if
there wasn't great adventure,what she, the situation she was
in, she could not do anymore,would not do anymore and should
not have had to do.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah, she really did not want to leave you or you,
but she very effectively set usup to take care of each other
absolutely, and I'm sure shehence.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Hence the scavenger hunt that she left us.
Hence this podcast, hence deadmom scavenger hunt.
Yeah, she left us a list oftasks the scavenger hunt.
If you want to hear more abouthow this started, you can listen
to episode one, where we talkabout it.
Um, go up on some tangentsabout it, but we try to explain
the dead mom scavenger.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Yeah, yeah, I don't.
She didn't have like.
Doing a podcast together wasnot on her list of requirements
but I have to imagine she'd bevery excited, oh God, I think
that we're spending this muchtime together, absolutely.
Fighting about microphones andthings like well, we're just
(30:22):
getting, we're getting to knowour mics our magic mics um what
else you'd be?
Happy to know that.
So hospice um death doula, uhoh oh, banana talk about the
banana okay, this is anotherthing that people should know
that we really need to talkabout.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah.
So there, when you no longerhave control over your faculties
in terms of urinary faculties,urinary faculties, yeah, um,
number one and number two.
Number two is easier to dealwith because you kind of know
it's happened usually and youknow there is a smell and you
(30:59):
can use a diaper and get peoplechanged up, but often with
peeing you can't feel it andit's just wet and you don't
really know, not good for theskin, not good for the skin.
You can get crazy like UTIs,and when you're in that position
(31:20):
it's just a real problem.
And a lot of women, as they getolder, kind of, you know those
muscles aren't as, yeah.
But if you're bed bound, ifyou're bed bound, yeah, and you
can't control your urine, andyou can't control.
There is a device that it lookslike a cotton banana.
It looks like a very largetampon that has a little tube
(31:44):
connected to it that goes to apump, like a little machine
that's about the size of a shoebox, sitting on its side, that
sits right next to the bed.
We called it the banana um, andthe actual banana part is
disposable.
And this was like a godsend forher, because you the you know
(32:07):
bananas are single use and onceit's used up, you just take that
one out and like take it offthe tube, get a new one, put it
back on and put it in place, iton the area, place it on the
area which is right where thepee would come out.
I'm sure feel free to skip overthis part if this isn't what
you hear about.
But when kara says, spread thelabia, this is what she's
(32:29):
talking about, because if youreally want to get it in the
exact right position thank godyou guys can't see below here,
because I'm actually like mimingthis on my own self um, you
have to get it right there.
Um, but I forgot.
I wish I could remember what itwas actually called, do you?
No, I don't.
Um, it's sadly it is notcovered by insurance.
(32:51):
It should be, and they're notthat uh cheap.
She would have had to have acatheter otherwise.
Yes, otherwise you have to havea catheter.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Which comes with its own set of issues.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
This is an external catheter.
Um, let me see if I can findthe name of it, but it is
technically an external catheter.
Um, hold vamp while I look.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Look for this, yeah having to have a catheter.
A traditional catheter wouldhave come with its own set of
pure wick complications the purewick system p-u-r-e-w-i-c-k.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
their um website is pure wick at homecom.
It is an amazing system.
Um yeah, external catheter uh,for women.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Yeah, so it's just.
That was just a sidebar,because we talk a lot about the
banana.
We had a lot of jokes about thebanana and spreading the labia
because Christie would have todo that.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah, To tuck it in there.
Well, to get it in the rightspot, because obviously you want
the person who has to have thisto be as comfortable as
possible, and she was like thisbanana is the shit, yeah so that
was yeah that's the banana.
Uh, so what else?
Anything like I said, feel freeto contact us.
(34:06):
Oh, um, where can people?
Speaker 1 (34:08):
find us, kara.
You can find us on Instagram atdmshpod, that's at dmshpod.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
If you have questions , you can email us at dmshpod at
gmailcom Great.
And if people want to contactyou personally on the socials,
do you want to give that out orno?
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Sure, I mean, I'm on Instagram at Cara C A R a dot
Steinman S T E I N M A N N,which I will link because
obviously that's a lot.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
I don't use my personal Instagram that much, I
only use my work one.
But feel free to contact me onthat.
Um, that's the one I check andit is at drugstore cowgirl
jewelry on the instagram.
Again, that's at drugstorecowgirl jewelry on the gram and
also the tiktok.
I mean, I'm also on tiktok atkara steinman.
(35:04):
I think that's it.
Hopefully I didn't say um toomany times.
I don't care okay, no, itdoesn't care, um, that's you
don't care, I don't care, that'sDeath, doulas, and this is Dead
.
Mom Scavenger Hunt, thanks forjoining bye.
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