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Is It Still Faith If I Don’t Feel Safe?
Have you ever walked out of a church meeting feeling more broken, ashamed, or dismissed than before you went in—wondering if it’s even possible to honor your faith and protect your safety at the same time?
For women facing divorce, church is often positioned as a lifeline—but what happens when the lifeline turns into a source of confusion, shame, or spiritual wounding? If you’ve found yourself battling self-doubt, wrestling with religious trauma, or feeling frozen by judgment instead of comfort, this episode gets right to the heart of why so many people lose their sense of spiritual safety during marital distress and divorce.
In this conversation, you’ll gain insights into how to rebuild spiritual trust and belonging after religious trauma, discover why shame and “spiritual bypassing” can derail your healing journey, and explore practical ways to reconnect with faith and community without sacrificing your boundaries or well-being.
Press play now to hear real women’s stories, expert perspectives, and tangible steps for honoring both your faith and your safety as you reclaim your voice and your healing.
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A podcast exploring the journey of life after divorce, delving into topics like divorce grief, loneliness, anxiety, manifesting, the impact of different attachment styles and codependency, setting healthy boundaries, energy healing with homeopathy, managing the nervous system during divorce depression, understanding the stages of divorce grief, and using the Law of Attraction and EMDR therapy in the process of building your confidence, forgiveness and letting go.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
When I told my church elder that my husband shoved me
into the wall.
He asked me if I was prayingdaily.
He said I needed to be moreobedient.
I left that meeting and threwup in the church parking lot.
Loves, this episode isdifferent.
It's not just our voices, it'syours, and today we're honoring
(00:20):
the stories our community hasshared about what happened when
they asked the church for helpand got shame instead.
This is about the women who satacross from spiritual leaders
and left more broken than before.
Hi love, welcome to Dear DivorceDiary, the podcast helping
(00:43):
divorcees go beyond talk therapyto process your grief, find the
healing you crave and buildback your confidence.
I'm your host, dawn Wiggins, atherapist, coach, integrative
healer and divorcee.
Join me for a fresh approach tohealing grief and building your
confidence after divorce.
After divorce, darlings, todaywe are digging into all the
(01:16):
things spiritual and religioustrauma and certainly processing
our own experiences with it, aswell as the stories that have
been shared with us.
Some of the things we are goingto talk about today is the
shame instead of help, rightwhen we're looking to church for
help, because I do think that'swhat we've been taught to do is
for it to be a resource and asource of support.
And when you know there's not asolution, that fits the problem
(01:39):
right, there's sort of a commontheme around there being
self-doubt, spiritualdisorientation, nervous system
freeze.
When you get something from apastoral team or a leader in a
church that doesn't actually askbig, curious, hard questions
and go to the dark places andhave a path for intervention,
(02:02):
right, it just sort of ends upbeing spiritual bypassing and
gaslighting and all of thisright.
We are also going to talk abouthow to rebuild spiritual and
religious safety afterwards.
Right, if you decided to leaveyour marriage and maybe you
decided to leave your church.
Right, going back andrevisiting those things.
And how do you rebuild whenyou've experienced spiritual or
(02:25):
religious trauma amidst maritaldistress and divorce?
Right, what you can learn,relearn about faith, god
yourself, what you would say tothose spiritual leaders if you
could go back and do it againfrom a sense of safety in your
own body.
These are the things we aregoing to dig into today, because
the truth is you do not have topick between your safety and
(02:47):
your salvation.
Welcome, coach Tiffany andProducer Joy.
What you feeling as we'reunpacking this conversation this
morning.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I feel a heaviness and a heartbreak for these women
, because this is very, veryreal women, because this is a
very, very real.
I don't think that as achristian culture, we hold space
or um like the broad, the broadchurch right, not not um, but
(03:17):
hold space for truth to be inthe light told like, yeah, so
it's, this one's a little bitmore of a heartbreak for me,
because I do love the Lord somuch and I see it.
I've seen it my entire life,I've seen it even in recent
(03:37):
years.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
For me personally.
I think that there's so muchconnectedness between God
bringing me a husband like God,choosing this man, putting him
in my path and this is the onethat I chose and realizing that
something about it is not rightand then having to reconcile is
this what God wanted for my life?
It's a big thing to sort ofturn away from.
(04:04):
Is there a lesson that I'msupposed to learn?
Am I supposed to change?
Am I supposed to fix this?
Because this is the one andonly man that God brought into
my life?
Speaker 1 (04:14):
That's super interesting, because I was
always told that God had theperfect person picked out for me
too.
Oh, interesting, and myex-husband is definitely a
Christian, but he's also a lotof other things that don't
square with living in alignmentwith God living in alignment,
(04:35):
you know yeah.
Yeah, that doesn't mean peoplehave to be perfect, right, but
there's sort of this willfulongoing disobedience Right,
right, right, right of thiswillful, ongoing disobedience
Right, right, right, right.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
There's a distinct difference between loving the
Lord and living for the Lord,being a Christian and being
indwelled.
Like there's like a fruit thatcomes from alignment.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
That is not necessarily there, just in the
right words that you say, oractions like going to church,
you know so we've heard, like somany stories, whether it's in
the community around town orfrom women we've talked to or
you know, and we have definitelyheard people say things like
(05:27):
they feel like the churchbetrayed them, things like the
church asked me what I was doingthat made him so angry, or they
reminded me that he's still thespiritual head of the household
, or that my marriage could beredeemed if I only learned how
to forgive better, or whatever.
And I think that this is towhat, tiffany, you said.
(05:51):
This is really spirituallydisorienting.
What do I believe?
And I know, growing up for me,growing up with a mother who was
very, very religious, I thinkin the way that often makes
people cringe religious, I thinkin the way that often makes
people cringe I often doubtedmyself because she carried
herself as though she was thevoice of God, right, that what
she spoke was godly truth, andthen it made me always question
(06:16):
everything that was outside ofwhat she thought or felt or
believed.
And I think, very similarly,that's what goes on in churches
and it's very dangerous becausethen we're self-abandoning,
right, and we're abandoning evenmaybe our own relationships
(06:37):
with God in deference to what aleader or a figure has said,
right.
So that's not this deep,meaningful relationship with God
, really intuiting what God istrying to say to me.
It's like this unhealthyattachment with maybe a leader
or a attachment figure right thechurch.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
What are your thoughts?
I feel like that happens a lot,though.
It happens a lot in religion.
When you start idolizing thepastor instead of really working
through all of that to say,like what is God trying to say
to me right now?
You know, what is God speakingthrough me right now, and I know
for me.
I knew divorce in religion wasnot great.
(07:19):
I knew there were thingssurrounding that, but me it was
like I was hearing one thing,but I felt like God was telling
me another.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
And I remember even like right before divorce.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
So I was raised in the Northeast.
Northeast religion is verydifferent from the South.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
I would love to talk more about that yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
How's it different?
Well, because in the Northeast,where I was raised in
Pennsylvania so initially I wentto church a lot with my
grandparents and we had aLutheran church I was a baptized
Lutheran, which is like a stepdown from Catholic, so in my
town a lot of people wereCatholic and then I kind of like
went away from the church alittle bit because I was raised
(07:59):
by a mom who was very spiritual,but in the sense of like she
worshipped God through natureand experience and being loving.
So not necessarily havingdiscipline to go to church every
week, like we didn't really doit.
But then when I was a teenager,I started taking vocal lessons
because I love to sing, and sothat vocal teacher ended up
connecting me with her choir andso when I was like around 12
(08:24):
years old, I joined a Methodistchurch and I started singing in
the choir and my mom wouldattend with me and things like
that.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
When I got to the South.
What's your favorite churchsong to sing?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
One time I did a flute solo.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
His Eye is on the Sparrow right and I just loved
playing that song on the flute.
It was so beautiful.
It's such a beautiful song.
Do you remember anything likethat?
I?
Speaker 3 (08:44):
don't?
I feel so disconnected fromthat time that I honestly don't
remember.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Interesting, but that's where I'm at.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Yeah, and I sang in weddings.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
I sang solos all the time I feel an IFS session
coming.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Well, we also had this really cool pastor and he
tried to bring a lot of reallyneat things, and we actually
burned incense in the church,which whatever.
And Well, we also had thisreally cool pastor and he tried
to bring a lot of really neatthings in.
Like we actually burn incense inthe church, which, whatever,
and eventually there ended upbeing a situation where he was
dismissed from the church by theelders due to like some things.
And that was my first real riftin the church and experiencing
losing someone who I felt likewas a great leader for my life
(09:22):
spiritually when I got to theSouth.
Welcome to the world of SouthernBaptists okay, because there is
a Baptist church on everycorner and where I live there
are churches everywhere.
We're probably like theCharleston of the mountains is
what they call us here.
So I started getting involvedwhen I was in the military in
(09:45):
Southern Baptist Church and Iremember, you know, we were
doing Bible study with othercouples and doing other things.
Those pastors I loved becausethey were loud and they were so
like.
They spoke with such convictionthat they just like gave you
chills every Sunday and I feltvery connected to the Southern
Baptist sort of you know,religious tendencies whatever
and I remember it connected tothe Southern Baptist sort of you
(10:05):
know religious tendencieswhatever, and I remember it was
crazy because right before mydivorce- so like meaning,
because I was born and baptizedLutheran, also in Wisconsin,
right.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
So I would guess that we had like a similar
experience, right.
But then we moved to Floridawhen I was very, very young,
five years old.
We stuck in the Lutheran churchfor a couple of years but then
went to a Southern Baptistchurch when I was like nine or
10.
So by loud do you mean like inthe Lutheran and Catholic
churches everything is sort oflike monotone and like very like
nasal or whatever.
(10:34):
And then you get to this otherchurch and it's like dynamic and
intense and it's like there'slife breathed into it or
something.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yeah, like the pastor's voices are always
booming, like they're super loudIf anyone's ever been to
Southern Baptist they are loud.
Yes, and that really kept myattention and it held me and it
was good for what I needed and Iremember there's something
about the Southern Baptistreligion and people want to tell
me that I'm wrong.
That's perfectly okay.
But they do believe at somepoint that as adults, they would
(11:01):
like you to be re-baptized,because it's like a recommittal
of the Lord like in a consciousway.
So I remember one of the mostbeautiful religious times that I
had was right prior to mydivorce, like prior to me
leaving my marriage, I decidedto get baptized and it was a
night and the church was darkand it was just candlelight and
I invited no one no one, becauseit was such a personal decision
(11:26):
that I had made and I gotbaptized that night and it was
one of the most beautiful thingsthat has ever happened to me.
It was one of the most beautifulexperiences ever I have chills.
I really, really loved it yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah same, I had been baptized as a baby but then got
re-baptized as a teenager orsomething like that.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Yeah, and then when I moved to Myrtle Beach I did
attend a Baptist church.
My daughter went to a Baptistdaycare.
We did the whole thing againand then I started gravitating
towards non-denominational,because that's a big thing down
here too.
So yeah, I think I've takenquite the spiritual journey and
kind of where I'm at now.
Where I've landed is I haven'tgone to church in a number of
(12:07):
years but for me I've kind ofgone back to the roots of my
mother, where I worship Godthrough nature and through
hiking.
Like I feel closer to him whenI'm in nature, the lake, on a
hiking trail, like whateverthat's where I feel like.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
I get.
You're preaching joy's lovelanguage there.
Yeah, I say that I meet God innature.
I absolutely wear.
I meet him and we have the bestconversations.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
I have a lot of conversations with my friends
who are also going throughdivorce, who are ultra religious
in the church and are receivingcounseling through the church,
and I'm always amazed by howdifferent some of their
experiences are, where some ofthem have these very empowering
pastors that are validating themand say this is not what God
(12:59):
intended for you.
It's time to move on.
And there are other ones thatare almost shaming women into
being these very subordinatebeings.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
I agree, I see the church grappling with trying to
become modern right, likespeaking into and acknowledging
and validating the truth ofliving in a modern world and and
speaking up about our currentmodern struggles.
Right, but then not condoning.
Right, like trying to remainbiblically based while also
(13:37):
speaking out against certainthings.
I see the church reallygrappling with that.
But I got to tell you, westarted going back to church
last year and it's beenwonderful.
But also I don't hear in thehalls, for instance right, or in
the chit chat.
I don't know how much liketruth speaking goes on.
You know like really truthspeaking about what happens
(13:59):
behind closed doors in people'shomes and how much.
Our church recently started atrauma-based program for people,
which I love, and it was basedon Davey Blackburn's experience.
His wife was brutally murderedand so he created a trauma
program for churches.
But even in that I didn't hearanything about EFT tapping or
(14:20):
EMDR or homeopathy or the thingsthat actually help heal the
brain-based trauma that happens,and so my spidey sense always
goes off that.
Well cool, we have a trauma, wecould say.
I attend a trauma-informedchurch.
That's freaking amazeballs.
But also, you know, some of theinspiration for this exact
(14:43):
episode was producer Joy'ssentiment that too often in the
church the answer is pray harder, have more faith and be
submissive, right Like hit yourknees, hit your knees, hit your
knees.
And that is a wonderful andessential element of communing
with God and knowing his planfor you.
But it's not necessarily.
It could in some cases, butit's not necessarily going to
(15:05):
heal your brain or your nervoussystem, right?
There are some specificbehaviors that God holds us
accountable to do to allow ourbodies to be in a position where
they can heal themselves.
And I think that requires, likeyou can't stay typically
endlessly in an abusive oraddicted or home that lacks
(15:28):
integrity or alignment orfidelity right and heal
completely.
That's, you know, it's sort ofthat idea that you can't heal
while the knife is still in you.
And we've been talking a lothere on the pod lately about
stay or go and how to notself-abandon while staying, and
that's amazing.
But also, at some point, ifthere's someone in the marriage
(15:51):
who's not willing to do the work, to be well and to live in
alignment with God's designwomen to heal or to be well or
to live in God's design ifthey're still in the situation,
that's reinforcing the pain, theharm the trauma and I don't
(16:12):
hear a lot of thoseconversations.
We've been invited on thepodcast Unyoked multiple times,
which has been amazing.
It is a Christian podcast aboutdivorce and I think he has the
same mission.
Right Is how can we have realfaith-based conversations about
divorce without shaming, blamingand disenfranchising people?
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Yeah, Well, that's the thing when we were in that
Bible study at the Baptistchurch, like we would go into
these people's homes, like everyweek, you know, and we would
have it, and they would separatethe men and the women to do
Bible study and then we wouldall come together but there were
never deep conversations, theywere always surface level, you
(16:55):
know like, and I think thatthere is a lot of worrying about
image Performative, yes,performative Christianity.
I just never felt like it wentdeep enough for me.
I felt like if I would havetold these women what I was
really experiencing, what wouldthat have done?
Honestly it would have allowedme to be seen, but then what?
(17:19):
Then there's this fear of mysecret being out, everyone
finding out.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
But then what Then?
Speaker 3 (17:22):
there's this fear of my secret being out, everyone
finding out, staring at me inchurch, not wanting to invite me
to things, and here's the thingthat I think is a real thing is
.
I feel like if you go there inthese small group situations,
(17:42):
there has to be some thoughtaround one bad apple poisoning
the group.
How close do you get to someonewhen you're already on the
fence about your own marriageand someone's coming to you and
somebody else is coming to youand another person is coming to
you?
How much of that seeps in towhat you're trying so badly to
hold together?
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Say more about that.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
If I feel like my marriage is falling apart, if I
have questions that I'm not ableto share and I'm surrounding
myself with people that aresurface level, people that I'm
not really sharing that with,but then all of a sudden I feel
like I can start sharing withmore and more people and more
and more people start giving mevalidation to divorce.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Then what do?
What are?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
you.
What is your fear of what itwould do?
Speaker 3 (18:29):
would it start affecting all of these other
women that are?
It's like, if you look back inhistory on feminist movements,
right like I just read a bookthat talked about the feminist
right and like that book thatcame up and it's like if we get
everybody riled up about theirmarriages what is that going to
(18:49):
do?
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Well, right, I think it trickles back down to mutual
accountability, right?
So I think, in the church, isthere a mechanism not just for
brain-based, nervoussystem-based healing, but is
there a mechanism foraccountability for not just men,
because women can be abusive?
We know women cheat, right, wetalk about all these things,
(19:12):
right, this is not to man bash,right, but is there a mechanism
for accountability and then aplan for wellness?
And I think these issues happenin every community, not just
churches.
So I don't want to just like beputting the church on blast,
right, I think, as communities,we struggle with there being
safe spaces, we struggle withvulnerability, we struggle with
(19:35):
social media, we struggle withpolarization, we struggle with
judgment and blame, and, yeah, Ithink this happens in all
communities all over the world.
Right, I don't think it'sunique to churches, but, yeah,
where we are, you know not, wewant to avoid our own
vulnerability in our own work.
So I'll rather point fingers atyours, right, I'd rather, right
(19:57):
, I'd rather put you on blast orhighlight what you're going
through, rather than join you inyour vulnerability.
I think that's real.
I'm curious Joy's perspective,because Joy is in a small group
that does go deep, and that'shad its seasons, right.
How have you grappled withthese things over the years, joy
?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I think that the church as a whole let me speak
into Southern Baptists, right,Southern Baptists as a whole,
Southern.
Let me speak into SouthernBaptist right, Southern Baptist
are are, as a whole, are verysuppressed, and it's very
suppressed, right, Like it'svery whispered in the dark.
There's, you know, there'sthere's a million jokes about
(20:39):
you know, Baptist and drinkingand the Methodist will hand you
a beer, but the Baptist you knowwhat I mean Like there's,
there's a million jokes outthere about Baptist.
But I think the disservice thatthis level of organization does
is that they, they keepeverything quiet so it doesn't
(21:04):
breed, like Tiffany was saying,like the ripples that come from
one woman right.
Descent, that's the word descent.
It doesn't breed descent, andso I am proud of my church, but
I do think that my church is inthe minority in terms of how you
(21:24):
know our.
When everything in my personallife fell apart, my pastor
literally just said that thechurch had my back, that that
they were supportive and I hadoptions.
Like he said, I had options,and my pastor's wife brought me
a lime for my.
You know my drinks my mules.
(21:46):
So, like there's, there areamazing doctrinally sound.
I think the problem with thechurch as a whole is that so
much of our teachings areopinion based and not what is
actually text correct.
(22:06):
One of my most favorite thingsthat was said to me in that
period of my life was that Godis a God of redemption and my
story will be redeemedregardless of the outcome of my
marriage.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Of your marital status.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Amen, yes, and that was so powerful to me because it
let me kind of release thepressure of me fixing it and me
and me having to sacrificemyself or to become smaller or
to do, to act right, to perform.
Because God is a God who givesgood gifts and he is a God who
(22:45):
wants good things for hischildren.
And like I'm a daughter of aking, why would I settle for
being in this marriage?
Why would God want me to be ina marriage that broke me in so
many ways Right?
So like, if we look at it inthe picture of I'm a daughter of
(23:08):
a keen.
What would a daughter of a keen, what would he want for his
child?
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Right, so like there's not not endless
suffering, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
It's not endless suffering.
Like God did not create us forendless suffering.
No, no so and I do, like youknow you, you, this is kind of a
I'm, I'm trying to, I'm not, Idon't want to bash, I don't want
to bash.
I grew up in a church that youare modest If you weren't
(23:38):
wearing wearing pantyhose.
Right, like, it's not just likewomen, didn't?
I didn't own jeans when I metmy, my husband.
So like there are, you know,women were are taught from.
They're almost groomed.
I would even go as far to sayright, they were groomed to keep
(24:01):
your head down, keep your mouthshut and, you know, perform as
a wife, because that is what God, god, called us to do.
And while I do think that Godcalled us to be loving and
supportive wives, I also believethat God is the original
feminist, like he is.
You know, jesus talked to thewoman at the well and she was
the outcast.
So, like, you'll never convinceme that God wanted women small,
(24:24):
or, you know, like he wanted uscherished and loved and
respected and treated well.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
No, and in fact your husband and I have had many a
conversation about.
Is the Holy Spirit female, aswe would write like?
Because he's talked aboutscripture right where it says
and then he brooded over thewater, or or they brooded over
the water, right, and broodingis a distinctly feminine trait,
right?
So is the Holy Spirit female orfeminine, right?
(24:52):
And I, yeah, I totally agreeand love that yeah.
So in that moment where yourpastor showed up and his wife
brought you lives, which is justlike such a beautiful moment,
right, that also came on theback of your husband coming
forward and admitting sort ofall of his shortcomings and
(25:12):
challenges, right, but leadingup to that moment, did you feel
like you could have come forwardand confronted all that and
been as supported in the church?
I genuinely don't know theanswer.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Oh, that's a really good question.
Do I feel supported?
I would say no, because I'dnever experienced, I had never
been witness to or experiencedanything that I had gone through
, right, like he confessed to,basically a double life, right.
So there's a level of which,growing up in a very legalistic,
(25:56):
conservative Southern Baptistchurch to the non-denominational
church that we were attendingat the time, I had never seen
sin, darkness, whatever.
Whatever vernacular you want touse, come to light and it be
(26:17):
held.
You know I had.
You know there there are thingsthat I had done or experienced
or had done to me in theSouthern Baptist church that was
never allowed to be talkedabout.
It was, I was.
You know you miss one Sundayand you're a heathen,
backsliding Christian kind ofthing Does that include sexual
assault at Walmart?
(26:38):
That it was not talked about.
Like my Sunday school teachersknew I was, I was sexually
assaulted as a child and so umin a very public place and it
was not held.
It wasn't um.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
You know the language you're using and Tiffany is
nodding her head tiff, tiff jumpin.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
What's resonating.
Again, it comes back to thisthing where the message that
we're taught is that when wecome into this I don't know, I
feel like I have such a hardtime rectifying because my
personal relationship with God,when I am on that lakeshore,
when I am deep in the woods,when I am even in my own
(27:16):
backyard in the woods and I'mlaying in the grass and I'm
looking at the sky, thosefeelings of being seen,
understood and loved by myhigher power.
I've never felt that in churchby others.
I never felt that connection toother people in the way that he
intimacy me to be connected toother yes, like joy saying that
(27:38):
she never fell witness to sin,like I'm sorry, what kind of
bullshit is it being held, notnot being held?
Speaker 2 (27:45):
yes, right, and it's not accepted like like god you
know what I mean, like when,when he came forward, they
didn't say oh you're, we'resinful, whatever.
You know what I mean like yeah,he was held, accountable held
yeah, right, but he was alsolike god extends grace and like
that is his big picture message.
(28:05):
Is that?
Like?
Sure, but how often do people?
Speaker 1 (28:09):
come, come forward and confess and then don't walk
the journey out into alignment.
Right, it is not enough toconfess there has to be a step
by step by step by step recoveryprocess, that is intense and
arduous and fraught, and all thethings not to make healing
(28:31):
sound so awful.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
No, but like it it's.
It's a fork in the road rightand where you have the easy road
of just like burying it.
It's not easy and you and Iboth know that that causes more
damage.
Even my husband will tell youthat like it causes more damage.
To suppress and to like brushit aside and put it under a
blanket and just like move onand pretend it never happened,
(28:55):
then it is.
That's easier than it is to divedeep and and and do the really
hard work of asking yourself andand self accountability and
doing the reprogramming and allof those tools that God gave us,
Like there are yeah, okay,right, and like you break your.
(29:15):
This is one of the things I sayall the time you break your arm
, you go to a doctor, so like ifyour heart you don't break your
marriage.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
and then literally yeah, Just pray.
And then just like studyscripture.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Yeah, that's not like God gave us tools and he gave
us the opportunity forredemption to the purest,
deepest sense, not just movingon, and I will.
My heart, my heart breaks forthe, for the couples who just
move on instead of.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
I can't tell you how many of those couples I see in
practice where there wassomething, admitted, you know,
maybe multiple times, but thennever actually took the steps to
do the recovery.
It's like oh, we talked aboutit, he said he was sorry, he
said he wouldn't do it again,and then like and then just sort
of slipping into the comfy,cozy blanket of denial, like
(30:09):
it's just going to go away.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Yeah, another thing that I love that was told to me
back then was that time doesn'theal all wounds.
Time heals clean wounds.
So like get all, like work itout, get it out, do the healing,
because a scab is going tocreate a scar, you know like it
(30:34):
doesn't.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
You know, I was sitting in church this weekend
and I do love going because I dolove learning and I do love the
music and the ritual and thepeople that I meet and all those
things, right, I love servingcoffee and and all of this stuff
, and I do believe that there'sreally good preaching at my
church.
And also, you know, I had thisreally in-depth conversation
(30:57):
with my daughter after theservice where she was really
struggling with feeling guilt,right.
So it's like, okay, they get upthere and they preach, the
preach, but then are we teachingour people how to forgive
themselves, like the mechanisms,right of self-forgiveness, or
God's grace or love, and whatthat looks like to both receive
(31:18):
grace and be accountable?
Like, are we teaching that A?
But then B, they did starttalking about how there are
people in the world who havenever heard the voice of God, or
that's not right.
I'm not saying that right, butlike don't know about Christ.
But I don't believe thatbecause, to Tiffany's point,
when she's laying in herbackyard staring up at the sky,
(31:38):
intimately attuned to God'screation, it's pretty impossible
to live on this planet and notbe in touch with some
intelligent creator, right?
I think that when the churchfocuses more on proselytization
or conversion than it does onholding its own people
accountable and with grace, wehave our priorities out of order
(32:01):
.
But there's an episode we did awhile back when I read the book
by Janine McConaughey thatfacilitated a state change for
me truly.
It's called Trauma in the Pewsand she is a licensed therapist
who also has done lots of EMDRto heal spiritual trauma that
happened within the church walls.
(32:21):
She has a history of sexualabuse and all the layers of how
that played out in the churchand how it actually blocked her
own recovery and how that turnedinto many different forms of
illness later in life and sheapproached EMDR and all of this
true recovery work later in lifenot late in life, but later in
(32:42):
life in her 50s and 60s.
Really, really remarkable.
So validating gets into theessential nature of a
trauma-informed approach forchurches and I think voices like
hers are essential.
I actually gave a copy of thebook to my pastor.
He never circled back.
There's a really good example.
What are you feeling in yourbody right now?
(33:03):
Tiffer Doodle, as we've beentalking about this.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
I just feel like there are so many women out
there who are in situations thatthey shouldn't need to be in
because they're not receiving.
They're idolizing the leaderinstead of the higher power.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Are they?
Speaker 1 (33:24):
idolizing, yeah right , making anything other than the
actual higher power, higherpower.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Or do they feel?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
trapped.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
I think, all of the above, all of the above, all of
the above.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
I would honestly say I don't know if that many people
are aware.
Right, you go to the church andyou trust him to stand up on
the pulpit and give the words ofGod.
But how many people actuallycome home and rectify what was
just preached to you versus whatwas actually in scripture?
Because there are so manycommentaries that you can take
(33:59):
scripture out of context.
You can take one little thing,that Well, sure.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
And also this piece about attachment style, right,
because when I was gettingdivorced and made a decision to
and there was so much contextagain about religion and
spirituality in my divorce aswell, that was wound up in my
mom and my ex and all the thingsand I started exploring other
(34:24):
religions, other spiritualpractices.
I started really stretching andreaching and exploring for the
first time in my life and Iwould have sometimes panic
attacks about the idea that Iwas going to go to hell because
I had a Jewish sponsor orbecause I was practicing yoga
(34:45):
and learning Sanskrit orexploring the Hindu faith or you
name it, and I think I havesome very unpopular takes within
the Christian church.
Right, the Christian churchwould have a lot to say about
what I experienced in thoseyears as I built this much
stronger, deeper connection withGod.
(35:07):
But in those moments I reallybelieve that my attachment style
was all wound up in the churchand my perception of God not
God's actual way of being orloving or creating, but my
perception of God that came fromgrowing up with a parent who
was incredibly dogmatic in achurch that was very, very
(35:29):
suppressed and repressed.
My dad, actually Tiffany, thisis hysterical my dad told joy a
story yesterday about how we hadthis little dog when I was a
kid and it was a boy dog so it'spenis would stick out sometimes
, right, and my mom told my dadshe wanted this was before they
got divorced, wanted him todiaper the dog because his penis
was offending her.
Like that's such repressionright to do with, like shame and
(35:53):
sex and sexuality and body, allthe things, right Like it.
Just explains me right there,friends, that's the whole game,
right there.
But yeah, so I think that ourattachment style, we cannot heal
our attachment style withoutlooking at our relationship to
religion and religious leaders,because it's all, when you've
(36:14):
been raised in a religion, itbecomes part of it, because
religion is based on life,eternal life or death, right,
heaven or hell.
In every religion there's someversion right Of life after
death and how that plays out, Imean, and they start teaching it
at a very young age.
(36:35):
I am shocked by how we scarelittle kids into being Christ
followers by teaching them aboutblood over door jams and this
kind of stuff, right Likeslaughter and Jesus on the cross
, and I think it's terrifyingand I think it does groom them
or brainwash them.
I was brainwashed right Likeexploring my religion shouldn't
(36:58):
cause panic.
That's a very clear sign thatthere's something off in the way
.
There's not a security right,not a security in my identity in
God's eyes.
Period.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Well, in the place that I live now, like they have
very public protests.
There's like one center of thecity that you can protest in.
That is on Main Street, and Iremember I was down there I
don't know when it was, but Iwent by and there were people
out there protesting with theirbig signs that says God hates
divorce.
And all I'm thinking of is likeall of these little kids that
are in their parents' cars, thatare going by and reading this,
(37:33):
and then what is thatconversation like in the car?
So I worry about these pockets,especially in the South where I
live, where people feel sosuppressed and that they don't
have a voice and they have tojust sit still and look pretty.
And these are the women that Ifeel like, in my mind, are
(37:54):
probably experiencing the worstkinds of Marital suffering.
Something, yes, abuse addiction.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Yeah.
So what we want our listenersto hear today, right, other than
you're not alone, we hear you,we get you, we've lived it is
also that we are three women whohave a strong faith and
spiritual and even religiousfoundation right and a
trauma-informed approach towalking this out and a
spiritually informed approach towalking this out.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
And even in our program right, like we're
embracing with these women andtheir own spiritual journey,
like I feel, like your ownrelationship with the higher
power is, it has to be one partof your healing.
It has to be and I tell all ofthe clients that we work with.
I don't care if what you are,if you're Buddhist, if you're
Hindu, if you're just universaland you believe in universal law
or attraction, there has to besomething higher outside of you
(38:48):
that has to be a piece of yourhealing.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Okay, my darling dears, our Thursday episode is
going to be an even grittierlook at today's topic.
We are going to share somelistener stories that you know
trigger warning.
It's some intense content rightabout what goes on behind the
scenes in churches, when you'resitting in that pastor's office
and really trying to find a pathforward.
So stay tuned for Thursday.
(39:16):
If you're not a premiumsubscriber, this is an
invitation to become one.
For $5 a month you can diveeven deeper into your healing
journey here behind the scenesand deeper takes on how to keep
it going, how to find alignment,how to heal.
We love you so much.
Peace, dear.
(39:44):
Divorce Diary is a podcast bymy coach John.
You can find more atmycoachjohncom.
When I told my church elder that my husband shoved me
into the wall.
He asked me if I was prayingdaily.
He said I needed to be moreobedient.
I left that meeting and threwup in the church parking lot.
Loves, this episode isdifferent.
It's not just our voices, it'syours, and today we're honoring
(00:20):
the stories our community hasshared about what happened when
they asked the church for helpand got shame instead.
This is about the women who satacross from spiritual leaders
and left more broken than before.
Hi love, welcome to Dear DivorceDiary, the podcast helping
(00:43):
divorcees go beyond talk therapyto process your grief, find the
healing you crave and buildback your confidence.
I'm your host, dawn Wiggins, atherapist, coach, integrative
healer and divorcee.
Join me for a fresh approach tohealing grief and building your
confidence after divorce.
After divorce, darlings, todaywe are digging into all the
(01:16):
things spiritual and religioustrauma and certainly processing
our own experiences with it, aswell as the stories that have
been shared with us.
Some of the things we are goingto talk about today is the
shame instead of help, rightwhen we're looking to church for
help, because I do think that'swhat we've been taught to do is
for it to be a resource and asource of support.
And when you know there's not asolution, that fits the problem
(01:39):
right, there's sort of a commontheme around there being
self-doubt, spiritualdisorientation, nervous system
freeze.
When you get something from apastoral team or a leader in a
church that doesn't actually askbig, curious, hard questions
and go to the dark places andhave a path for intervention,
(02:02):
right, it just sort of ends upbeing spiritual bypassing and
gaslighting and all of thisright.
We are also going to talk abouthow to rebuild spiritual and
religious safety afterwards.
Right, if you decided to leaveyour marriage and maybe you
decided to leave your church.
Right, going back andrevisiting those things.
And how do you rebuild whenyou've experienced spiritual or
(02:25):
religious trauma amidst maritaldistress and divorce?
Right, what you can learn,relearn about faith, god
yourself, what you would say tothose spiritual leaders if you
could go back and do it againfrom a sense of safety in your
own body.
These are the things we aregoing to dig into today, because
the truth is you do not have topick between your safety and
(02:47):
your salvation.
Welcome, coach Tiffany andProducer Joy.
What you feeling as we'reunpacking this conversation this
morning.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I feel a heaviness and a heartbreak for these women
, because this is very, veryreal women, because this is a
very, very real.
I don't think that as achristian culture, we hold space
or um like the broad, the broadchurch right, not not um, but
(03:17):
hold space for truth to be inthe light told like, yeah, so
it's, this one's a little bitmore of a heartbreak for me,
because I do love the Lord somuch and I see it.
I've seen it my entire life,I've seen it even in recent
(03:37):
years.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
For me personally.
I think that there's so muchconnectedness between God
bringing me a husband like God,choosing this man, putting him
in my path and this is the onethat I chose and realizing that
something about it is not rightand then having to reconcile is
this what God wanted for my life?
It's a big thing to sort ofturn away from.
(04:04):
Is there a lesson that I'msupposed to learn?
Am I supposed to change?
Am I supposed to fix this?
Because this is the one andonly man that God brought into
my life?
Speaker 1 (04:14):
That's super interesting, because I was
always told that God had theperfect person picked out for me
too.
Oh, interesting, and myex-husband is definitely a
Christian, but he's also a lotof other things that don't
square with living in alignmentwith God living in alignment,
(04:35):
you know yeah.
Yeah, that doesn't mean peoplehave to be perfect, right, but
there's sort of this willfulongoing disobedience Right,
right, right, right of thiswillful, ongoing disobedience
Right, right, right, right.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
There's a distinct difference between loving the
Lord and living for the Lord,being a Christian and being
indwelled.
Like there's like a fruit thatcomes from alignment.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
That is not necessarily there, just in the
right words that you say, oractions like going to church,
you know so we've heard, like somany stories, whether it's in
the community around town orfrom women we've talked to or
you know, and we have definitelyheard people say things like
(05:27):
they feel like the churchbetrayed them, things like the
church asked me what I was doingthat made him so angry, or they
reminded me that he's still thespiritual head of the household
, or that my marriage could beredeemed if I only learned how
to forgive better, or whatever.
And I think that this is towhat, tiffany, you said.
(05:51):
This is really spirituallydisorienting.
What do I believe?
And I know, growing up for me,growing up with a mother who was
very, very religious, I thinkin the way that often makes
people cringe religious, I thinkin the way that often makes
people cringe I often doubtedmyself because she carried
herself as though she was thevoice of God, right, that what
she spoke was godly truth, andthen it made me always question
(06:16):
everything that was outside ofwhat she thought or felt or
believed.
And I think, very similarly,that's what goes on in churches
and it's very dangerous becausethen we're self-abandoning,
right, and we're abandoning evenmaybe our own relationships
(06:37):
with God in deference to what aleader or a figure has said,
right.
So that's not this deep,meaningful relationship with God
, really intuiting what God istrying to say to me.
It's like this unhealthyattachment with maybe a leader
or a attachment figure right thechurch.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
What are your thoughts?
I feel like that happens a lot,though.
It happens a lot in religion.
When you start idolizing thepastor instead of really working
through all of that to say,like what is God trying to say
to me right now?
You know, what is God speakingthrough me right now, and I know
for me.
I knew divorce in religion wasnot great.
(07:19):
I knew there were thingssurrounding that, but me it was
like I was hearing one thing,but I felt like God was telling
me another.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
And I remember even like right before divorce.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
So I was raised in the Northeast.
Northeast religion is verydifferent from the South.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
I would love to talk more about that yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
How's it different?
Well, because in the Northeast,where I was raised in
Pennsylvania so initially I wentto church a lot with my
grandparents and we had aLutheran church I was a baptized
Lutheran, which is like a stepdown from Catholic, so in my
town a lot of people wereCatholic and then I kind of like
went away from the church alittle bit because I was raised
(07:59):
by a mom who was very spiritual,but in the sense of like she
worshipped God through natureand experience and being loving.
So not necessarily havingdiscipline to go to church every
week, like we didn't really doit.
But then when I was a teenager,I started taking vocal lessons
because I love to sing, and sothat vocal teacher ended up
connecting me with her choir andso when I was like around 12
(08:24):
years old, I joined a Methodistchurch and I started singing in
the choir and my mom wouldattend with me and things like
that.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
When I got to the South.
What's your favorite churchsong to sing?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
One time I did a flute solo.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
His Eye is on the Sparrow right and I just loved
playing that song on the flute.
It was so beautiful.
It's such a beautiful song.
Do you remember anything likethat?
I?
Speaker 3 (08:44):
don't?
I feel so disconnected fromthat time that I honestly don't
remember.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Interesting, but that's where I'm at.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Yeah, and I sang in weddings.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
I sang solos all the time I feel an IFS session
coming.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Well, we also had this really cool pastor and he
tried to bring a lot of reallyneat things, and we actually
burned incense in the church,which whatever.
And Well, we also had thisreally cool pastor and he tried
to bring a lot of really neatthings in.
Like we actually burn incense inthe church, which, whatever,
and eventually there ended upbeing a situation where he was
dismissed from the church by theelders due to like some things.
And that was my first real riftin the church and experiencing
losing someone who I felt likewas a great leader for my life
(09:22):
spiritually when I got to theSouth.
Welcome to the world of SouthernBaptists okay, because there is
a Baptist church on everycorner and where I live there
are churches everywhere.
We're probably like theCharleston of the mountains is
what they call us here.
So I started getting involvedwhen I was in the military in
(09:45):
Southern Baptist Church and Iremember, you know, we were
doing Bible study with othercouples and doing other things.
Those pastors I loved becausethey were loud and they were so
like.
They spoke with such convictionthat they just like gave you
chills every Sunday and I feltvery connected to the Southern
Baptist sort of you know,religious tendencies whatever
and I remember it connected tothe Southern Baptist sort of you
(10:05):
know religious tendencieswhatever, and I remember it was
crazy because right before mydivorce- so like meaning,
because I was born and baptizedLutheran, also in Wisconsin,
right.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
So I would guess that we had like a similar
experience, right.
But then we moved to Floridawhen I was very, very young,
five years old.
We stuck in the Lutheran churchfor a couple of years but then
went to a Southern Baptistchurch when I was like nine or
10.
So by loud do you mean like inthe Lutheran and Catholic
churches everything is sort oflike monotone and like very like
nasal or whatever.
(10:34):
And then you get to this otherchurch and it's like dynamic and
intense and it's like there'slife breathed into it or
something.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yeah, like the pastor's voices are always
booming, like they're super loudIf anyone's ever been to
Southern Baptist they are loud.
Yes, and that really kept myattention and it held me and it
was good for what I needed and Iremember there's something
about the Southern Baptistreligion and people want to tell
me that I'm wrong.
That's perfectly okay.
But they do believe at somepoint that as adults, they would
(11:01):
like you to be re-baptized,because it's like a recommittal
of the Lord like in a consciousway.
So I remember one of the mostbeautiful religious times that I
had was right prior to mydivorce, like prior to me
leaving my marriage, I decidedto get baptized and it was a
night and the church was darkand it was just candlelight and
I invited no one no one, becauseit was such a personal decision
(11:26):
that I had made and I gotbaptized that night and it was
one of the most beautiful thingsthat has ever happened to me.
It was one of the most beautifulexperiences ever I have chills.
I really, really loved it yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah same, I had been baptized as a baby but then got
re-baptized as a teenager orsomething like that.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Yeah, and then when I moved to Myrtle Beach I did
attend a Baptist church.
My daughter went to a Baptistdaycare.
We did the whole thing againand then I started gravitating
towards non-denominational,because that's a big thing down
here too.
So yeah, I think I've takenquite the spiritual journey and
kind of where I'm at now.
Where I've landed is I haven'tgone to church in a number of
(12:07):
years but for me I've kind ofgone back to the roots of my
mother, where I worship Godthrough nature and through
hiking.
Like I feel closer to him whenI'm in nature, the lake, on a
hiking trail, like whateverthat's where I feel like.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
I get.
You're preaching joy's lovelanguage there.
Yeah, I say that I meet God innature.
I absolutely wear.
I meet him and we have the bestconversations.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
I have a lot of conversations with my friends
who are also going throughdivorce, who are ultra religious
in the church and are receivingcounseling through the church,
and I'm always amazed by howdifferent some of their
experiences are, where some ofthem have these very empowering
pastors that are validating themand say this is not what God
(12:59):
intended for you.
It's time to move on.
And there are other ones thatare almost shaming women into
being these very subordinatebeings.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
I agree, I see the church grappling with trying to
become modern right, likespeaking into and acknowledging
and validating the truth ofliving in a modern world and and
speaking up about our currentmodern struggles.
Right, but then not condoning.
Right, like trying to remainbiblically based while also
(13:37):
speaking out against certainthings.
I see the church reallygrappling with that.
But I got to tell you, westarted going back to church
last year and it's beenwonderful.
But also I don't hear in thehalls, for instance right, or in
the chit chat.
I don't know how much liketruth speaking goes on.
You know like really truthspeaking about what happens
(13:59):
behind closed doors in people'shomes and how much.
Our church recently started atrauma-based program for people,
which I love, and it was basedon Davey Blackburn's experience.
His wife was brutally murderedand so he created a trauma
program for churches.
But even in that I didn't hearanything about EFT tapping or
(14:20):
EMDR or homeopathy or the thingsthat actually help heal the
brain-based trauma that happens,and so my spidey sense always
goes off that.
Well cool, we have a trauma, wecould say.
I attend a trauma-informedchurch.
That's freaking amazeballs.
But also, you know, some of theinspiration for this exact
(14:43):
episode was producer Joy'ssentiment that too often in the
church the answer is pray harder, have more faith and be
submissive, right Like hit yourknees, hit your knees, hit your
knees.
And that is a wonderful andessential element of communing
with God and knowing his planfor you.
But it's not necessarily.
It could in some cases, butit's not necessarily going to
(15:05):
heal your brain or your nervoussystem, right?
There are some specificbehaviors that God holds us
accountable to do to allow ourbodies to be in a position where
they can heal themselves.
And I think that requires, likeyou can't stay typically
endlessly in an abusive oraddicted or home that lacks
(15:28):
integrity or alignment orfidelity right and heal
completely.
That's, you know, it's sort ofthat idea that you can't heal
while the knife is still in you.
And we've been talking a lothere on the pod lately about
stay or go and how to notself-abandon while staying, and
that's amazing.
But also, at some point, ifthere's someone in the marriage
(15:51):
who's not willing to do the work, to be well and to live in
alignment with God's designwomen to heal or to be well or
to live in God's design ifthey're still in the situation,
that's reinforcing the pain, theharm the trauma and I don't
(16:12):
hear a lot of thoseconversations.
We've been invited on thepodcast Unyoked multiple times,
which has been amazing.
It is a Christian podcast aboutdivorce and I think he has the
same mission.
Right Is how can we have realfaith-based conversations about
divorce without shaming, blamingand disenfranchising people?
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Yeah, Well, that's the thing when we were in that
Bible study at the Baptistchurch, like we would go into
these people's homes, like everyweek, you know, and we would
have it, and they would separatethe men and the women to do
Bible study and then we wouldall come together but there were
never deep conversations, theywere always surface level, you
(16:55):
know like, and I think thatthere is a lot of worrying about
image Performative, yes,performative Christianity.
I just never felt like it wentdeep enough for me.
I felt like if I would havetold these women what I was
really experiencing, what wouldthat have done?
Honestly it would have allowedme to be seen, but then what?
(17:19):
Then there's this fear of mysecret being out, everyone
finding out.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
But then what Then?
Speaker 3 (17:22):
there's this fear of my secret being out, everyone
finding out, staring at me inchurch, not wanting to invite me
to things, and here's the thingthat I think is a real thing is
.
I feel like if you go there inthese small group situations,
(17:42):
there has to be some thoughtaround one bad apple poisoning
the group.
How close do you get to someonewhen you're already on the
fence about your own marriageand someone's coming to you and
somebody else is coming to youand another person is coming to
you?
How much of that seeps in towhat you're trying so badly to
hold together?
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Say more about that.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
If I feel like my marriage is falling apart, if I
have questions that I'm not ableto share and I'm surrounding
myself with people that aresurface level, people that I'm
not really sharing that with,but then all of a sudden I feel
like I can start sharing withmore and more people and more
and more people start giving mevalidation to divorce.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Then what do?
What are?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
you.
What is your fear of what itwould do?
Speaker 3 (18:29):
would it start affecting all of these other
women that are?
It's like, if you look back inhistory on feminist movements,
right like I just read a bookthat talked about the feminist
right and like that book thatcame up and it's like if we get
everybody riled up about theirmarriages what is that going to
(18:49):
do?
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Well, right, I think it trickles back down to mutual
accountability, right?
So I think, in the church, isthere a mechanism not just for
brain-based, nervoussystem-based healing, but is
there a mechanism foraccountability for not just men,
because women can be abusive?
We know women cheat, right, wetalk about all these things,
(19:12):
right, this is not to man bash,right, but is there a mechanism
for accountability and then aplan for wellness?
And I think these issues happenin every community, not just
churches.
So I don't want to just like beputting the church on blast,
right, I think, as communities,we struggle with there being
safe spaces, we struggle withvulnerability, we struggle with
(19:35):
social media, we struggle withpolarization, we struggle with
judgment and blame, and, yeah, Ithink this happens in all
communities all over the world.
Right, I don't think it'sunique to churches, but, yeah,
where we are, you know not, wewant to avoid our own
vulnerability in our own work.
So I'll rather point fingers atyours, right, I'd rather, right
(19:57):
, I'd rather put you on blast orhighlight what you're going
through, rather than join you inyour vulnerability.
I think that's real.
I'm curious Joy's perspective,because Joy is in a small group
that does go deep, and that'shad its seasons, right.
How have you grappled withthese things over the years, joy
?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I think that the church as a whole let me speak
into Southern Baptists, right,Southern Baptists as a whole,
Southern.
Let me speak into SouthernBaptist right, Southern Baptist
are are, as a whole, are verysuppressed, and it's very
suppressed, right, Like it'svery whispered in the dark.
There's, you know, there'sthere's a million jokes about
(20:39):
you know, Baptist and drinkingand the Methodist will hand you
a beer, but the Baptist you knowwhat I mean Like there's,
there's a million jokes outthere about Baptist.
But I think the disservice thatthis level of organization does
is that they, they keepeverything quiet so it doesn't
(21:04):
breed, like Tiffany was saying,like the ripples that come from
one woman right.
Descent, that's the word descent.
It doesn't breed descent, andso I am proud of my church, but
I do think that my church is inthe minority in terms of how you
(21:24):
know our.
When everything in my personallife fell apart, my pastor
literally just said that thechurch had my back, that that
they were supportive and I hadoptions.
Like he said, I had options,and my pastor's wife brought me
a lime for my.
You know my drinks my mules.
(21:46):
So, like there's, there areamazing doctrinally sound.
I think the problem with thechurch as a whole is that so
much of our teachings areopinion based and not what is
actually text correct.
(22:06):
One of my most favorite thingsthat was said to me in that
period of my life was that Godis a God of redemption and my
story will be redeemedregardless of the outcome of my
marriage.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Of your marital status.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Amen, yes, and that was so powerful to me because it
let me kind of release thepressure of me fixing it and me
and me having to sacrificemyself or to become smaller or
to do, to act right, to perform.
Because God is a God who givesgood gifts and he is a God who
(22:45):
wants good things for hischildren.
And like I'm a daughter of aking, why would I settle for
being in this marriage?
Why would God want me to be ina marriage that broke me in so
many ways Right?
So like, if we look at it inthe picture of I'm a daughter of
(23:08):
a keen.
What would a daughter of a keen, what would he want for his
child?
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Right, so like there's not not endless
suffering, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
It's not endless suffering.
Like God did not create us forendless suffering.
No, no so and I do, like youknow you, you, this is kind of a
I'm, I'm trying to, I'm not, Idon't want to bash, I don't want
to bash.
I grew up in a church that youare modest If you weren't
(23:38):
wearing wearing pantyhose.
Right, like, it's not just likewomen, didn't?
I didn't own jeans when I metmy, my husband.
So like there are, you know,women were are taught from.
They're almost groomed.
I would even go as far to sayright, they were groomed to keep
(24:01):
your head down, keep your mouthshut and, you know, perform as
a wife, because that is what God, god, called us to do.
And while I do think that Godcalled us to be loving and
supportive wives, I also believethat God is the original
feminist, like he is.
You know, jesus talked to thewoman at the well and she was
the outcast.
So, like, you'll never convinceme that God wanted women small,
(24:24):
or, you know, like he wanted uscherished and loved and
respected and treated well.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
No, and in fact your husband and I have had many a
conversation about.
Is the Holy Spirit female, aswe would write like?
Because he's talked aboutscripture right where it says
and then he brooded over thewater, or or they brooded over
the water, right, and broodingis a distinctly feminine trait,
right?
So is the Holy Spirit female orfeminine, right?
(24:52):
And I, yeah, I totally agreeand love that yeah.
So in that moment where yourpastor showed up and his wife
brought you lives, which is justlike such a beautiful moment,
right, that also came on theback of your husband coming
forward and admitting sort ofall of his shortcomings and
(25:12):
challenges, right, but leadingup to that moment, did you feel
like you could have come forwardand confronted all that and
been as supported in the church?
I genuinely don't know theanswer.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Oh, that's a really good question.
Do I feel supported?
I would say no, because I'dnever experienced, I had never
been witness to or experiencedanything that I had gone through
, right, like he confessed to,basically a double life, right.
So there's a level of which,growing up in a very legalistic,
(25:56):
conservative Southern Baptistchurch to the non-denominational
church that we were attendingat the time, I had never seen
sin, darkness, whatever.
Whatever vernacular you want touse, come to light and it be
(26:17):
held.
You know I had.
You know there there are thingsthat I had done or experienced
or had done to me in theSouthern Baptist church that was
never allowed to be talkedabout.
It was, I was.
You know you miss one Sundayand you're a heathen,
backsliding Christian kind ofthing Does that include sexual
assault at Walmart?
(26:38):
That it was not talked about.
Like my Sunday school teachersknew I was, I was sexually
assaulted as a child and so umin a very public place and it
was not held.
It wasn't um.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
You know the language you're using and Tiffany is
nodding her head tiff, tiff jumpin.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
What's resonating.
Again, it comes back to thisthing where the message that
we're taught is that when wecome into this I don't know, I
feel like I have such a hardtime rectifying because my
personal relationship with God,when I am on that lakeshore,
when I am deep in the woods,when I am even in my own
(27:16):
backyard in the woods and I'mlaying in the grass and I'm
looking at the sky, thosefeelings of being seen,
understood and loved by myhigher power.
I've never felt that in churchby others.
I never felt that connection toother people in the way that he
intimacy me to be connected toother yes, like joy saying that
(27:38):
she never fell witness to sin,like I'm sorry, what kind of
bullshit is it being held, notnot being held?
Speaker 2 (27:45):
yes, right, and it's not accepted like like god you
know what I mean, like when,when he came forward, they
didn't say oh you're, we'resinful, whatever.
You know what I mean like yeah,he was held, accountable held
yeah, right, but he was alsolike god extends grace and like
that is his big picture message.
(28:05):
Is that?
Like?
Sure, but how often do people?
Speaker 1 (28:09):
come, come forward and confess and then don't walk
the journey out into alignment.
Right, it is not enough toconfess there has to be a step
by step by step by step recoveryprocess, that is intense and
arduous and fraught, and all thethings not to make healing
(28:31):
sound so awful.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
No, but like it it's.
It's a fork in the road rightand where you have the easy road
of just like burying it.
It's not easy and you and Iboth know that that causes more
damage.
Even my husband will tell youthat like it causes more damage.
To suppress and to like brushit aside and put it under a
blanket and just like move onand pretend it never happened,
(28:55):
then it is.
That's easier than it is to divedeep and and and do the really
hard work of asking yourself andand self accountability and
doing the reprogramming and allof those tools that God gave us,
Like there are yeah, okay,right, and like you break your.
(29:15):
This is one of the things I sayall the time you break your arm
, you go to a doctor, so like ifyour heart you don't break your
marriage.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
and then literally yeah, Just pray.
And then just like studyscripture.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Yeah, that's not like God gave us tools and he gave
us the opportunity forredemption to the purest,
deepest sense, not just movingon, and I will.
My heart, my heart breaks forthe, for the couples who just
move on instead of.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
I can't tell you how many of those couples I see in
practice where there wassomething, admitted, you know,
maybe multiple times, but thennever actually took the steps to
do the recovery.
It's like oh, we talked aboutit, he said he was sorry, he
said he wouldn't do it again,and then like and then just sort
of slipping into the comfy,cozy blanket of denial, like
(30:09):
it's just going to go away.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Yeah, another thing that I love that was told to me
back then was that time doesn'theal all wounds.
Time heals clean wounds.
So like get all, like work itout, get it out, do the healing,
because a scab is going tocreate a scar, you know like it
(30:34):
doesn't.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
You know, I was sitting in church this weekend
and I do love going because I dolove learning and I do love the
music and the ritual and thepeople that I meet and all those
things, right, I love servingcoffee and and all of this stuff
, and I do believe that there'sreally good preaching at my
church.
And also, you know, I had thisreally in-depth conversation
(30:57):
with my daughter after theservice where she was really
struggling with feeling guilt,right.
So it's like, okay, they get upthere and they preach, the
preach, but then are we teachingour people how to forgive
themselves, like the mechanisms,right of self-forgiveness, or
God's grace or love, and whatthat looks like to both receive
(31:18):
grace and be accountable?
Like, are we teaching that A?
But then B, they did starttalking about how there are
people in the world who havenever heard the voice of God, or
that's not right.
I'm not saying that right, butlike don't know about Christ.
But I don't believe thatbecause, to Tiffany's point,
when she's laying in herbackyard staring up at the sky,
(31:38):
intimately attuned to God'screation, it's pretty impossible
to live on this planet and notbe in touch with some
intelligent creator, right?
I think that when the churchfocuses more on proselytization
or conversion than it does onholding its own people
accountable and with grace, wehave our priorities out of order
(32:01):
.
But there's an episode we did awhile back when I read the book
by Janine McConaughey thatfacilitated a state change for
me truly.
It's called Trauma in the Pewsand she is a licensed therapist
who also has done lots of EMDRto heal spiritual trauma that
happened within the church walls.
(32:21):
She has a history of sexualabuse and all the layers of how
that played out in the churchand how it actually blocked her
own recovery and how that turnedinto many different forms of
illness later in life and sheapproached EMDR and all of this
true recovery work later in lifenot late in life, but later in
(32:42):
life in her 50s and 60s.
Really, really remarkable.
So validating gets into theessential nature of a
trauma-informed approach forchurches and I think voices like
hers are essential.
I actually gave a copy of thebook to my pastor.
He never circled back.
There's a really good example.
What are you feeling in yourbody right now?
(33:03):
Tiffer Doodle, as we've beentalking about this.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
I just feel like there are so many women out
there who are in situations thatthey shouldn't need to be in
because they're not receiving.
They're idolizing the leaderinstead of the higher power.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Are they?
Speaker 1 (33:24):
idolizing, yeah right , making anything other than the
actual higher power, higherpower.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Or do they feel?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
trapped.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
I think, all of the above, all of the above, all of
the above.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
I would honestly say I don't know if that many people
are aware.
Right, you go to the church andyou trust him to stand up on
the pulpit and give the words ofGod.
But how many people actuallycome home and rectify what was
just preached to you versus whatwas actually in scripture?
Because there are so manycommentaries that you can take
(33:59):
scripture out of context.
You can take one little thing,that Well, sure.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
And also this piece about attachment style, right,
because when I was gettingdivorced and made a decision to
and there was so much contextagain about religion and
spirituality in my divorce aswell, that was wound up in my
mom and my ex and all the thingsand I started exploring other
(34:24):
religions, other spiritualpractices.
I started really stretching andreaching and exploring for the
first time in my life and Iwould have sometimes panic
attacks about the idea that Iwas going to go to hell because
I had a Jewish sponsor orbecause I was practicing yoga
(34:45):
and learning Sanskrit orexploring the Hindu faith or you
name it, and I think I havesome very unpopular takes within
the Christian church.
Right, the Christian churchwould have a lot to say about
what I experienced in thoseyears as I built this much
stronger, deeper connection withGod.
(35:07):
But in those moments I reallybelieve that my attachment style
was all wound up in the churchand my perception of God not
God's actual way of being orloving or creating, but my
perception of God that came fromgrowing up with a parent who
was incredibly dogmatic in achurch that was very, very
(35:29):
suppressed and repressed.
My dad, actually Tiffany, thisis hysterical my dad told joy a
story yesterday about how we hadthis little dog when I was a
kid and it was a boy dog so it'spenis would stick out sometimes
, right, and my mom told my dadshe wanted this was before they
got divorced, wanted him todiaper the dog because his penis
was offending her.
Like that's such repressionright to do with, like shame and
(35:53):
sex and sexuality and body, allthe things, right Like it.
Just explains me right there,friends, that's the whole game,
right there.
But yeah, so I think that ourattachment style, we cannot heal
our attachment style withoutlooking at our relationship to
religion and religious leaders,because it's all, when you've
(36:14):
been raised in a religion, itbecomes part of it, because
religion is based on life,eternal life or death, right,
heaven or hell.
In every religion there's someversion right Of life after
death and how that plays out, Imean, and they start teaching it
at a very young age.
(36:35):
I am shocked by how we scarelittle kids into being Christ
followers by teaching them aboutblood over door jams and this
kind of stuff, right Likeslaughter and Jesus on the cross
, and I think it's terrifyingand I think it does groom them
or brainwash them.
I was brainwashed right Likeexploring my religion shouldn't
(36:58):
cause panic.
That's a very clear sign thatthere's something off in the way
.
There's not a security right,not a security in my identity in
God's eyes.
Period.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Well, in the place that I live now, like they have
very public protests.
There's like one center of thecity that you can protest in.
That is on Main Street, and Iremember I was down there I
don't know when it was, but Iwent by and there were people
out there protesting with theirbig signs that says God hates
divorce.
And all I'm thinking of is likeall of these little kids that
are in their parents' cars, thatare going by and reading this,
(37:33):
and then what is thatconversation like in the car?
So I worry about these pockets,especially in the South where I
live, where people feel sosuppressed and that they don't
have a voice and they have tojust sit still and look pretty.
And these are the women that Ifeel like, in my mind, are
(37:54):
probably experiencing the worstkinds of Marital suffering.
Something, yes, abuse addiction.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Yeah.
So what we want our listenersto hear today, right, other than
you're not alone, we hear you,we get you, we've lived it is
also that we are three women whohave a strong faith and
spiritual and even religiousfoundation right and a
trauma-informed approach towalking this out and a
spiritually informed approach towalking this out.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
And even in our program right, like we're
embracing with these women andtheir own spiritual journey,
like I feel, like your ownrelationship with the higher
power is, it has to be one partof your healing.
It has to be and I tell all ofthe clients that we work with.
I don't care if what you are,if you're Buddhist, if you're
Hindu, if you're just universaland you believe in universal law
or attraction, there has to besomething higher outside of you
(38:48):
that has to be a piece of yourhealing.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Okay, my darling dears, our Thursday episode is
going to be an even grittierlook at today's topic.
We are going to share somelistener stories that you know
trigger warning.
It's some intense content rightabout what goes on behind the
scenes in churches, when you'resitting in that pastor's office
and really trying to find a pathforward.
So stay tuned for Thursday.
(39:16):
If you're not a premiumsubscriber, this is an
invitation to become one.
For $5 a month you can diveeven deeper into your healing
journey here behind the scenesand deeper takes on how to keep
it going, how to find alignment,how to heal.
We love you so much.
Peace, dear.
(39:44):
Divorce Diary is a podcast bymy coach John.
You can find more atmycoachjohncom.
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