September 16, 2025 • 42 mins
Ever sworn you wouldn’t check his Instagram at 1 a.m. … and still did? Or did you tell yourself, “just one glass,” and finish the bottle? That loop isn’t just bad habits—it’s codependency as addiction.
In this episode of Dear Divorce Diary, dawn, Producer Joy, and Coach Tiffini unpack how post-divorce codependency functions like a hidden addiction—hooking you on approval, fixing, and being chosen. We’ll explore:
✨ Why shame (not loneliness) is the engine that keeps you stuck
✨ The breadcrumb → boundary cycle every divorced woman knows too well
✨ How “good girl” conditioning rewires your nervous system for addiction
✨ Practical ways to interrupt the dopamine-drama loop
You don’t need another glass, another scroll, or another half-love. You need a nervous system that feels safe—and that’s what we help women build every day.
👉 Ready to break the cycle? Apply now for A Different D Word, our 12-month divorce recovery program, and book your inquiry call here: Click to Apply
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MyCoachDawn
Instagram: (@dawnwiggins)
Instagram: (@coachtiffini)
On the Web: https://www.mycoachdawn.com
A podcast exploring the journey of life after divorce, delving into topics like divorce grief, loneliness, anxiety, manifesting, the impact of different attachment styles and codependency, setting healthy boundaries, energy healing with homeopathy, managing the nervous system during divorce depression, understanding the stages of divorce grief, and using the Law of Attraction and EMDR therapy in the process of building your confidence, forgiveness and letting go.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Tell me if this sounds familiar.
You swore you'd stop checkinghis profile, but there you were
at 1am scrolling and you alsotold yourself just one glass of
wine to relax and somehow thatstinking bottle is empty and you
swore you'd never go back tosomeone who treats you like that
.
And yet you answered the textDang it.
(00:21):
We don't typically call thataddiction, but what else do you
call it when you can't let go,even when you know it's hurting
you?
Hi love, welcome to DearDivorce Diary, the podcast
helping divorcees go beyond talktherapy to process your grief,
(00:45):
find the healing you crave andbuild back your confidence.
I'm your host, dawn Wiggins, atherapist, coach, integrative
healer and divorcee.
Join me for a fresh approach tohealing grief and building your
confidence after divorce.
(01:07):
Okay, darlings, we are on fireover here today, so watch out.
I have producer Joy and coachTiffany and we are really
excited to talk aboutcodependency today and scare the
pants out of you.
No, no, we don't scare pantsout, we scare pants off.
Scare the pants off of you byreally taking a look at the ways
(01:32):
in which codependency isactually a hidden addiction.
So in today's episode, we'regoing to talk about the hidden
addiction of codependency youtend to relate to addiction
looking like rehab rock bottom.
You know a bottle of vodka inyour desk drawer at work, but
what it actually looks like isalso pouring another glass of
wine just so you can sleep, orrefreshing his social media,
(01:54):
even though he's where youwouldn't right.
The truth is, codependency isan addiction to approval, to
fixing, to being chosen, and thewithdrawal, the actual symptoms
of withdrawal, theneurobiological experiences, are
just as real.
We're also going to talk aboutthe way that the sort of good
girl mentality many of us havebeen raised to have is a trap
(02:15):
for this whole codependentaddiction cycle, right?
So every time you set aboundary, guilt drags you back.
Every time you say never again,loneliness pulls you into
another half love.
That's the trap, right there.
Right, craving connection sodeeply which is right.
We're built for connection butwhile simultaneously, and
probably subconsciously, notbelieving you can have it, or
(02:35):
still carrying a wound fromtimes that somebody's connection
was withdrawn from you and soyou keep sacrificing yourself to
get scraps of it until yournervous system learns safety
which is what we help women doover here is really help the
nervous system embody safety.
You can't think your way out ofthis loop that you're in right,
that sort of ache, reaching forconnection and then just
(02:57):
settling.
And then finally, at the end ofthe episode, we are going to
talk about why this conversationabout addiction and
codependency is so freakingimportant for divorced women.
Because codependency is asocially accepted addiction.
Instead of a bottle or a pill,you get hooked on approval,
fixing and being chosen, and we,if anything, have validated
(03:19):
each other for all of thatself-sacrificing martyrdom.
Bullshit, right, but like anyaddiction, it rewires your
nervous system, your stresshormones spike, your self-esteem
plummets, your identity getshijacked by other people's needs
and, just like alcohol or drugs, the brain map and the
withdrawal that happens when youdon't have access to those
things, the anxiety, theloneliness, the cravings are
(03:41):
real.
And so our approach to divorcerecovery is different, because
it takes this into context andwe're going to talk about the
evidence we've gathered over theyears that you need to hear,
because there are a couple ofvery specific metrics that we've
looked at over the years thatshow us that women are deeply in
denial about this and how youcan specifically recognize if
you are one of those women.
(04:02):
Let's dig in, ladies.
I already talked too much.
Save me from myself.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
This topic is so on point, though, for so many women
.
I'm super excited to dive intothis.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
I just got a text last week from somebody that's
like, oh shit.
I just looked at his Instagram.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I promised myself that.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
I wasn't going to do it, but here I am scrolling
through the photos promisedmyself that I wasn't going to do
it, but here I am scrollingthrough the photos, yep, and it
wrecks us, right, like I've hadmultiple women who I've met with
this week that are listeners,right, admit that they, yeah,
when they drop into that it's sodysregulating, right, it takes
them out for a few days from anemotional standpoint, from a
nervous system standpoint, yeah,okay.
(04:41):
So we're going to, we're goingto unpack these loops, these
three sexy things we're going totalk about.
With regards to addiction,right, but it's truth telling
time.
Talk to me about the ways eachof you see yourselves doing
hidden addiction, right, this,like we think it's this, but
it's really that, right, whereyou tell yourself you're not
(05:02):
going to whatever, but then youdo the thing and it's just to
avoid feeling.
Because what is addiction?
Right, it's a difficultyfeeling a feeling and processing
it.
It's like I need somethingoutside of me to solve the pain
that I'm experiencing, thediscomfort I'm experiencing.
So I need something outside ofme to rescue from this feeling.
So what are the ways that youknow the three of us experience
(05:25):
trying to distance from painfulemotions by using addictive
substances, whatever they arefor us, right?
Speaker 3 (05:32):
I was younger it looked a lot different.
So when I was younger it wasdefinitely alcohol and weed.
Can I say that Of course that'swhat it was right?
Of course, yeah, I always usedalcohol and marijuana to sort of
like just mask whatever I wasfeeling, from a pretty young age
too, right.
So, like my young adult life,that's kind of how I was raised
(05:54):
to do it.
So there was this time periodthen when I went sober off of
everything for several years,and so addiction looks different
for me now.
Right, and I know that a lot ofwomen, of women think well, if
I'm not drinking or I'm notusing a substance, how can I
possibly be an addict?
Right right but now what Inoticed in myself is like I
changed from alcohol and weed toeating.
(06:15):
Late night eating, binge eating, when I'm not even hungry.
Everybody knows what that is.
You sit some kettle chips and Ican pound a whole bag like it's
nobody's business, like they'redelicious, right.
So to me like.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I posted this meme recently that said so, I'm
really disappointed to find outthat a serving size of potato
chip is 12 chips.
Girl, I eat 12 chips.
Just trying to decide if I wantto eat chips or not.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
You got to get that good flavor, you know, like
whatever.
So to me it looked likeovereating at times.
To me it looked like exercisingtoo much at some times.
It looked like scrolling on myphone, Any sort of behavior
where you are checking outmentally because you don't want
to feel, and those are the moresubtle things where sometimes
it's harder to recognize whenyou're doing it because it is
(07:01):
such a sneaky, insidious.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Yeah Well, and yeah well, and we?
Speaker 3 (07:07):
go.
Yeah, when I knew that I had aproblem with social media in
particular, it was to the factwhere I would literally just get
on my phone and I'd knowexactly where that social media
icon was.
Yeah, you could do it and whenI moved the icon to another page
.
I still was in the habit ofgetting up and pushing on the
same freaking icon, like it waswild.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Wow, that's really good.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
So I think that, again, when you start picking
things that are different thanwhat people normally consider to
be addictive substances, youknow even sex, even random
hookups like that's alladdicting things, even sex, even
random hookups, like that's alladdicting things.
So I think that you have to bereally careful about what are
you doing habitually to ignorewhat you're trying to feel.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Yeah yeah, we talked about this last week, right,
because we were all hanging outin person together and I was
like we got to change thequestion from what are you
feeling to what are you avoidingfeeling right now?
Yeah, yeah, Because that's thehabit of the pattern.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Yeah, feeling right now.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, yeah, cause that's the habit of the pattern.
Yeah, and that's easier toanswer.
Yeah, I think that there's.
I think my personal experiencewith addiction is addicted to
the drama, like if, ifsomething's not on fire, my
nervous system wasn't okay, andaddicted to the busy.
So like when I have a space inmy calendar, if I don't fill it
(08:27):
up so I can be calm and I canprocess, I couldn't, I could not
handle that.
So like relearning Dawn, do youremember a couple years ago,
when I was going through likethe recognizing the addiction of
the drama and trying to breakthose cycles and those circles,
my heart literally wenthaywirewire and.
I was palpitating really bad andlike there's something
(08:49):
structurally wrong with my heartand I went to cardiologist and
all these things and there wasactually nothing physically
wrong with me, but you couldwatch my heart just being going
because I was literally detoxingall of that and that was the
moment for me of that, and thatwas the moment for me.
(09:09):
It was so clear to me how, bychoosing differently, my body
was literally experiencingwithdrawal like revolting yeah
it was revolting.
It could not.
I went through a physicalwithdrawal because I was trying
to, you know, reprocess andreintegrate and rewire those
pathways of the addiction to thebusy, addiction to the drama,
addiction to the, and it meantcutting, you know, kind of
(09:31):
pulling back from family membersand pulling back from some of
those behaviors of Facebookstalking.
Like it was a physical socialmedia, mm, hmm, mm, hmm, um like
it was a physical social mediaand so you know like, yeah it's,
it's crazy how your body reactswithdrawals from things that
(09:52):
you wouldn't necessarily thinkwould be addiction in today's
mainstream, you know yeah, Ithink it's.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
you know, I hate to be one of those people that's
like gosh today's day and age,right, because does anything
ever really change?
But I do think that with modernconveniences right, we have
really lost track of how to feel.
We're not sitting outsideanymore, we're not working in
our bodies anymore and I want tosay not because my husband
(10:20):
literally works outside in hisbody, so I'm not trying to
oversimplify the thing but,generally speaking, right, we
are really numb and Brene Brownhas some amazing research right
that she really enlightened usall with back in 2010, 2011,.
Right, about how, you know, shetalked about a beer and a
banana nut muffin.
Right, that we would all doanything to stay numb and to
(10:42):
avoid feeling, and so all of herresearch on shame and
vulnerability.
She taught us that most of whatwe're trying to escape from
with our addictions is shame.
That's for most of us.
That is the emotion we reallystruggle to process, and we'll
talk about this a little more,you know, later in the podcast.
But most of the time, we canwork through feelings of, you
(11:04):
know, fear or sadness, or.
But most of the time we canwork through feelings of you
know, fear, sadness or whatever,right, but it's the underlying
shame that most people, I don'tthink, realize they're actually
struggling with.
They don't recognize whenthat's the thing they're dancing
away from.
And then, yeah, we have allthese behaviors we do.
So the ways that I have done itand definitely still do it is
with like work and achievementand, right, if I can just get it
(11:29):
right and good and perfect andwhat are some other things that
I do.
Yeah, I would say a lot oftimes I struggle still with it
when it's got to do with myhusband or my daughter, like if
they do something that'sembarrassing to me, that will
feel like shameful to me, andthen I'll want to like have them
be perfect so that I don't haveto feel shame.
(11:49):
Right, so it's, those are theplaces where I can still see
shame sort of creep in in littleways.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
I love how people always tell me I just want to
get over this.
I don't want to feel it, I justwant to come out on the other
side of it and it's likeunfortunately, sweetheart, you
have to feel every single partof this to get the healing part.
And it's not comfortable andit's not always fun, but it is a
crucial part of being able toget from point A to point B.
(12:18):
And that's the hard work thatmost people are not willing to
put in.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
If you want the outcomes that people talk about
when they're manifesting right.
Like you know you can't say thatyou want high vibe things and
not go through the shedding ofthe low vibe shit.
Okay, let's talk a little bitabout the sort of good girl trap
loop, right, where you end upaccepting less than because.
(12:45):
And so you end up in this likeI'm craving connection, craving
connection, I'm pursuing it, Iwant to be wanted, so badly.
Right, you end up falling back.
Right, you end up violatingyour own boundaries.
You end up sort of you know,eating the chip, scrolling the
scroll, answering the textmessage, whatever it is right.
And it's because, actuallyright, because I hear a lot of
(13:05):
women talk about the ache ofwanting to be touched, of
wanting to be sexed, of wantingto be cherished, like this ache
of like physical emptiness orthese types of things.
Right.
And the connection piece isn'tthe problematic part, right,
it's that below that ache is adeeply rooted fear that you're
(13:28):
not good enough or you can'thave it right.
There's shame underneath thedesire for connection.
It's actually the shame thatcauses the relapse into the loop
or the accepting thebreadcrumbs or the chasing shit
that doesn't actually solveright.
But people think it'sloneliness.
People think it's theloneliness that's the problem.
But it's actually the shamethat underpins loneliness.
(13:49):
Talk to me about what you'veseen, either in yourselves or
with the women we talked toright, that end up with the
scraps and the breadcrumbs.
Do you see women recognizingthat it's actually the shame
piece underneath or that they'reactually afraid they can't have
it?
Or do you see them reallythinking it's something else
like loneliness, or there's nogood men, or whatever it is?
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yeah, for me.
The women that I work withspecifically think that there's
no good men out there thatthey're not deserving, they're
not good enough or they justwant sex, you know, and they
don't understand why there'sthat like loneliness or aching
part in there.
Usually I tell people to get acat.
Yeah, yeah, get something tolove on, you know, like yeah.
(14:29):
Yeah, connection doesn't have tobe romantic, you know, and I
think that that's where a lot ofpeople feel like if they don't
have a romantic love in theirlife at that point, then it's
like some catastrophic loss andthey can never feel genuine love
connection.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
But I feel that with my friends, I feel that with my
family and I feel that, towardsmy cats, and I know that sounds
silly, but like you know there'sgenuine connection there.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
As far as me, I followed breadcrumbs forever,
forever in my life.
I settled for these bullshittexts from men that maybe would
text me good morning, or maybelook my way, or Right.
Because I didn't feel like Icould attract the types of men
that I was truly craving.
But the thing is I couldn'tbecause I was so fucking
codependent that a man with asecure attachment style was not
(15:13):
going to find me attractive.
He was going to find me needy ashell, and that's exactly how I
came off for quite a long timein my dating journey.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
So even for those women who just want to have sex,
like I don't think they'rerecognizing, Do you think
they're recognizing that?
Actually, that that's, that'sprobably a part of self right,
Like like a manager part or afirefighter part that's found an
adaptive way to perceiveconnection.
It's not actually connectionright, but it's to get that fix,
that addictive fix, Like I willfeel better about myself if I
(15:43):
can have this particular type ofexperience and it solves the
craving for needing to feel seen, heard, understood, whatever
Right and it doesn't actuallyaddress, like it doesn't
actually create connection,deeper, meaningful right.
It's like the dopamine hitCorrect, it's like a hit.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Well, that's what I was just going to say.
Anything and this is an easyway to figure it out, ladies
anything that feels to you likea dopamine hit.
Way to figure it out, ladiesanything that feels to you like
a dopamine hit, that is anaddictive habit, whether it's
the instagram scrolling, the sex, the chips, something that
gives you that instant hit ofadrenaline shopping, the busy
all the shopping.
Yeah, that is a way to know thatyou're using it to cope for
(16:24):
sure, and it's addiction.
Well, society now makes it soeasy to do all that.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
That's it right, you can celebrate it.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Celebrate it, we can do it, ash, we can do.
You know, ordering thingsonline, we could have something.
Oh, my goodness, was it right,like I know.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I think it was like early this summer and I saw a
commercial.
We must have been in an airbnbor like somewhere where we would
have commercials, or maybe wewere watching macgyver, I don't
know, sometimes we'll watchthrowback television shows and
so I'm not right.
When I watch Netflix I don'twatch commercials.
But we were watching somethingwhere there was a commercial and
I saw a commercial for, like,now you can door dash your
McDonald's coffee and I was likewe are crumbling as a society,
(17:01):
not for the reasons people thinkright, but if we have to door
dash our McDonald's, I don'tknow.
You know what I mean.
It's like we are not addressingthe underlying needs as a
society of people for rest,connection, shame, tolerance,
right, healthy ego, like we arenot.
Like spiritual, spiritualawareness and connection.
(17:21):
Like we are not pursuing theright things.
We are pursuing addiction thedopamine hits.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
It's all at our fingertips.
Whatever your poison is, pickit.
It's right there on your phone,which is like you know Hunger
Games.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Does anybody you know love Hunger Games like we do
over here?
But it's like when you look atyou know who lived in the city,
what were those people called,and you know they would have
these lavish parties where theywould eat.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Capital.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Yeah, the have these lavish parties where they would
eat capital.
Yeah, the capital.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
And then they would vomit in a in a bowl so that
they could keep eating.
Like we're on the brink of that, like pretty much across the
board.
It's wild and even like the TVshows that you binge.
I know this sounds silly, butlike every time, if you come in
and ever find me watchingGilmore girls, which I'm
obsessed- yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a million times.
Yeah, but when I'm watching it,not in the background, but when
I'm sitting and activelywatching it it is because I'm
avoiding feeling.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
A feeling because that actually brings me good
feelings oh, I've heard otherpeople tell me about this before
.
What like?
I have someone who watcheshallmark movies because it makes
them feel good that's sointeresting.
So what feelings do you tend toavoid from watching Gilmore
Girls?
Now, I know.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
True confessions, and usually it is a lot of like it
is.
It's like a lot of shame aroundjust things that I'm continuing
to experience.
You think that you know I'mstill in my healing journey and
again, this is what I love aboutour program because the women
(18:49):
in our program get a behind thescenes.
Look at the fact that, likewe're not standing on the other
side of this Right right, likewe are.
But the only difference, guys,between us and you is the fact
that that we know the tools, we,we know what to do for
ourselves, but it doesn't meanthat shit just magically stops
happening in our lives.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
We're still human.
That's right.
Well, can I say what you justsaid?
Can I say what you just said adifferent way?
Yeah, okay, I do think we're onthe other side of this, right,
like, I do want to clarify that.
That's my perspective.
But the thing is, is there'salways a new this?
Unless you stay stagnant inlife unless you stop growing,
unless you're like, okay, I feelfrom this thing and I'm never
(19:25):
going to push myself outside ofmy comfort zone again, there's
always a new this.
So, like, not for nothing, theshit we tackle around here, the
dreams that we all have, they'rebig, and when you have big
dreams and big goals, there'salways going to be new layers of
becoming.
That mean facing new levels ofam I good enough?
Am I worthy?
Can I do this?
Am I whatever?
(19:45):
Right, there's always a newthis.
So I think that's the thing toreally understand is like this
is the cycle of becoming in thecourse of life, right, if you
have a growth mindset, you'realways going to have closets
you're cleaning out.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
But I like that again we can share that with the
women in the program, right,like that just offers another
sense of vulnerability and Iknow that a lot of them were
kind of shocked, like to hearsometimes what we deal with on a
case by case, because we'regiving you guys a behind the
scenes on our relationships, ourmarriages, our parenting, and
you know we all have girls overhere, so pray for us.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
We have a bunch of girls.
There's a lot of girls thatwere over here, oh my God.
Pray for us.
Yeah, I feel like I do feellike I'm a completely different
person than I was you know, inthe Valley, in the Valley.
But I still have that struggleof like am I good enough?
I have a party coming up whereI'm supposed to bring some of my
favorite things and the amountof bandwidth and time that I've
(20:45):
I've taken up in my brainbecause I want to be chosen.
I want my.
That I have taken up in mybrain because I want to be
chosen.
I want my favorite things to bechosen.
I want to be good enough forthis party and like these women
are wonderful and they're lovely, but I have my circle and so
it's like why do I need theirapproval on a simple little item
?
Right, because I'm so, I'mstill.
You still have those momentswhere it reveals to you.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
I don't need to be chosen.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Yes, like this is something I'm still kind of in
the weeds about, about beinggood enough and being chosen and
being, like, socially acceptedand being a cool chick.
You know like it's very, verymuch always a work in progress,
because there's there's not alevel of which I don't want to
be better always.
I want to grow always, and sothere's always going to be
(21:31):
something.
That why did I just react when,when so-and-so said that to me?
Because that's her, that's,that's her thing, that's her.
You know people, people giveyou feedback through the lens of
their story and so, when youcan understand that that's their
story, that's not actually areflection of me, that's the way
(21:52):
she sees me not who I actuallyam.
So it's very it's.
It's very exciting, donna, andI talk about this all the time
where it's like, oh, I just hadthis revelation, and how
exciting, because this issomething that I can actually
work through and clear and, youknow, kind of address in my, in
my sphere, of me being growingand me developing as a person,
(22:18):
you know.
But, but also, yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
When you spot it, you can massage it out or whatever.
Yeah, I think I even.
I think I even use growthmindset a lot of times to run
away from shame.
I'm going to try to, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
I'm going to try to Deep into that.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
If I can just have this growth mindset and I'm
always getting better then Idon't have to I don't know get
hard feedback about certainthings sometimes because I'm a
step ahead.
So it's like yeah, understandthat.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Dawn just put me on a remedy that's like truth serum
and is making me truth bombeveryone else in my life, so
it's almost like she wants me tocome at her in certain ways and
challenge her.
I do.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Subconsciously right, I'm purging Like there's I'm
less affected by right, there'sless pockets to get.
There's probably something.
Let me, let me, like, get alittle more in the weeds about
that.
There's probably somethingabout being blindsided and I
think a lot of women relate tothis.
Okay, Think if I had to say it'smaybe not the shame, because I
really think that I've learnedhow to leverage shame.
(23:30):
I've learned how to spot itinside of me, outside of me, all
around me, in people.
You name it right and so I do.
I welcome critique and feedbackbecause then I know you're
calling out a blind spot I can'tsee, and then I can put it to
work and I can feel better.
Right, but I think it's beingblindsided is probably what I.
So, whatever that is shockpanic, heart racing right is
(23:58):
shock panic, heart racing rightLike that.
And I think a lot of women willrelate to that, because the
woman who is constantly planningwhat she's going to say next
and she's planning eightdifferent versions of the
conversation so she can feelprepared because she doesn't
want to feel blindsided.
So that is probably what mygrowth mindset allows me to
distance from right.
So if I had to work onsomething, it probably would be
(24:19):
my capacity to feel blindsidedand still stay grounded in my
faith that all is well and it'sjust a feeling, and a feeling
can be processed right and beput down.
So that's, I would say, isprobably your biggest yeah,
because I welcome the feedback.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
I mean my biggest right now, which you know.
This right now, something thatI'm still actively or that I'm
working on in this part of mylife, is feeling like I have to
do everything on my own in thisbusiness, in my partnership as a
parent.
all of that, like this theme hasfinally been circling me for
way too long, and I'm finallybeing called out on all fronts
of it, and so now I'm addressingbeing called out on all fronts
(24:55):
of it, and so now I'm addressingit because it is an issue and I
know that it's preventing mefrom moving forward in certain
parts of my life, and so now Ican't hide from it anymore.
I can't hide from it anymore, Ican't numb from it.
Too many people are aware of it.
Too many people have called meout in recent weeks.
I'm like I guess I need to dealwith this now.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
So yeah, I mean so like an addiction to hyper
independence.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Yeah, but it's what's under there, right.
It's like it's what's theinsecurity under there, which is
, like you know, we wereshooting the shit about this the
other day when we were talkingabout podcast titles.
We were workshopping a title,right, and it's like, if you're
not as good at titles, or ifyou're not as good as whatever,
what does that mean about you?
Does it mean you're not goodenough?
No, that's the thing that hyperindependence tries to solve,
right, is feeling like you'renot good enough.
(25:47):
In some way you have to be ableto do it all, or that I can't
handle it all and I have to relyon others, which then creates
fear in me, right?
Speaker 3 (25:59):
So Dawn had sent me this voice message and she was
like you, just there's this fear, this underlying fear that you
have about doing things on yourown, and so I played that out
loud and I automatically justhear, like my partner sitting in
the next room, and I'm like,because I'm like now everyone's
in on my game, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
I'm just like well, yeah, well, yeah, because then
it's number one like okay, so Ican't do it, all right, I have
to rely on people, which is howwe're meant to rely on people
right, but not in the addictiveway where we're distancing from
our pain right In a vulnerableway.
So, yeah, it's like okay, allright, shit, I need people.
But then to be able to trustpeople right is the next
(26:36):
insecurity, the next feelingthat's big and scary and
whatever.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Yeah, yeah, and that's something I've dealt with
my whole life, so that'ssomething that I you know, and
again, I say this all the time.
I would not suggest doing it myway, because I feel like you
definitely want to get healedprior to trying to get into your
next long-term relationship.
I have a very, very patientpartner that has stayed with me
(26:59):
through my own healing andthrough his too right.
But yeah, it's definitely been ajourney and a challenge and
it's crazy to think that I'mstill, at 42 years old,
struggling with still being ableto trust and let go in all
capacities, right.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
In my job, my career, my parenting, like everything.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I thinkit makes sense.
So because, again becomingright, one of the things that
I've been leaning into so muchin the last couple of years is
we don't necessarily have totrust people.
We have to be able to trust Godand the universe, whatever
however you want to relate tothat right.
And so if I can trust that theuniverse has my back and believe
that capital B, believe thatGod has my back, that the
universe has my back, then Idon't necessarily have to trust
(27:42):
people.
I have to be able to have anervous system that's
well-resourced enough that itcan feel safe and can access
faith and positive beliefs, andso I think that that's probably
what the deeper calling is rightIs do I put my faith in people
because people we all fuck up,right?
Like, so you could work onbuilding up your trust in people
(28:04):
all the time, but like, thenyour nervous system is going to
still take hits all the timebecause people are people right
and we do shit all the time thatmakes other people feel
uncomfortable or whatever youknow.
So I think being able to have areally grounded nervous system
that's well-resourced, veryflexible like the band-aid, not
band-aid.
What's that?
What's those squishy rubberband?
(28:26):
Rubber band.
There was a band in there,right?
Nervous systems are supposed tobe flexible like rubber bands.
Right Under stress they'resupposed to be able to flex out
and then, when the stress isremoved assuming your stress
gets removed most people, Ithink that have been living in
chronic fight, flight, freeze,fawn the stress never gets
removed and then the rubber bandgets stretched out and if
you've ever seen a reallyoxidative rubber band, it can no
(28:46):
longer go back to its old shapeanymore.
That's how most people'snervous systems are.
They're stretched to the limitand they're not conditioned to
be able to go back to rest anddigest, so there's just a
constant state of hyperarousal,right?
So you need a well-resourcednervous system that can flex and
bend and return to its healthy,normal shape, and you need a
strong faith in a organizeduniverse that loves you, right?
(29:08):
And then people are just goingto people and we can just enjoy
them.
You know, that's what I thinkwe're all at work on is leveling
up from that perspective.
Okay, let's dig into why thisall matters for the women we
work with who are recoveringfrom divorce.
Right, because, okay, what'sthe upside of healing, what's
(29:28):
the downside of healing?
Because there's both.
Right.
The downside of healing is youhave to learn to feel all of
this shit and there's no runningaway from it or escaping it.
The upside is right you get toactually manifest the high vibe
things because you become a highvibe individual who feels safe,
who anticipates abundance andsaid abundance shows up.
Right, but you know what weoften talk about around here and
(29:52):
I think a question I ask bothof you a lot.
I think that, if you reallyreflected back I've been
thinking about this the lastcouple of days, I bet.
I asked you this question a lot.
I say things like do you thinkshe knows?
Do you think she knows?
Do you think she knows?
That is a question I'mconstantly asking, because do
you think the women who arelistening right now know, do you
(30:13):
think they know, what thedownside is to not doing this
work?
Do you think they know thatthey're struggling with
addiction?
Do you think they know thattalk, therapies and even yoga is
not going to resource theirnervous system to the depths of
what they need?
Do you think they know thattheir nervous systems are revved
?
Because they've never felt whatit is to have their nervous
system not revved?
And how do you know somethingyou've not felt, right, do you
(30:34):
think they know?
So let's talk about the really,really specifically.
Let's get in the weeds aboutthe things we see our women who
we've been working with and ourlisteners right Struggle with
with regards to denial and beingable to recognize the way
codependency as addiction isrunning their lives.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
What I would say initially is that when we first
start working with people in ourprogram, they don't recognize
cycles, they do not have theawareness to know.
All they can really feel issomething's wrong.
Right, and I feel like you know, one of the emails that went
out recently is, like you know,it's time to join this program
when you can't live like you'reliving anymore.
(31:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
So you, you recognize there's like fed up of feeling
like shit, yeah, but like you'reliving anymore, right?
Speaker 3 (31:15):
So you recognize there's a problem.
Yeah, you're just like fed upof feeling like shit, yeah, but
like you might not recognize whyyou're feeling like this or how
to prevent it from happeningagain or how to prevent from
choosing someone like that again.
So I feel like I don't thinkinitially, the awareness is
there.
No, and I don't even think mostwomen, when they join the
program, know exactly what theyneed, right, like they just know
that something has got tochange because they cannot
continue doing it.
(31:35):
Um, I think a lot of our womenwho are mothers, it's when they
can no longer parent in the bestway that they want to, because
they are so in their head aboutlike that's the red line, Like
they can see their parentingslipping.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
And so, or like the way they're responding to their
kids slipping, and that's theirred line.
Yeah, which that's a beautifulrecognition.
Yeah, so if you're like,willing to do something on
behalf of your kids but notyourself, that is a hallmark.
Hallmark of codependency isaddiction.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
And I tell women that all the time that are moms that
I start working with like tostart making those initial
shifts, Like if you can't fightfor yourself in this moment, at
least fight for your kids,because that will click
something over in a mom's mindto bring that mom and bear in
there.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
It's a lily pad to the next thing.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
Correct.
Until she finally startsfiguring out how to care for
herself and to do for herself.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Absolutely, that was certainly my path.
Your kids are a great catalyst.
Yeah, I absolutely would setboundaries on my kids' behalf
Absolutely Before myself Untilthat changed right.
Until, yeah, it wasn't.
Yeah.
What are some other veryspecific things we can help
women see themselves in thedenial racket?
Speaker 3 (32:42):
The activation that occurs during IFS.
For me, if I have someone thatcomes in and is getting ready to
do an IFS session.
I love you know it's got to beon camera clearly, because I'm
studying you.
I want to see what the physicalreactions are to the body that
you're having, and so I haveseen people's eyes change in
session when they start todissociate.
I have seen people start tonervous, tapping looking away.
(33:05):
Their breathing becomes labored, like whatever.
It is right, even if you don'thave the awareness to know
what's going on, if I can mirrorit back to you and show you
that you are clearly in anactivated state, whether you
recognize it or not then, womenstart to recognize it for
themselves.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
So when you're talking to women and you and I
know you have this superpowerand you watch them answer their
own why you watch them starttheir self-reflection process
and stop before they actuallyget to the truth.
Where do you see women getting?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
stuck going a layer deeper and owning their shit.
I see so many times when I'mworking with, when I'm sitting
with a woman and I ask them why,or I encourage them to ask
themselves why and they stopbecause they get to the brink of
kind of where it's at, but thenthey default to it's been done
to me, it's been happened to meInstead of but what are you like
(34:02):
?
Owning yourself and owning yourown choices and like every
woman has, everybody on theplanet has things happen to them
, but it's how they handle, itis their superpower and that's
where they get the best resultand the owning themselves, when
you can kind of click out ofthat victim of like this isn't
(34:26):
this might have occurred to youin your life, your childhood or
whatever, but like you are incharge of yourself and you don't
get to live in this spot ofvictimhood and be the healthiest
version of yourself becausethose two things don't.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
You can't have them both.
Uh-huh, hot damn.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
There it is.
That was fire.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Okay, so let's recap right, so the things we see.
Denial is when we toggled avictim consciousness, right,
like.
But this was done to me andthat I think I know.
I can definitively say beyond ashadow of a doubt that that is
one of the things thathomeopathy really delivered me
from, Because I would know, likeI practice all the things right
(35:11):
, I'm a law of attraction junkie.
I freaking know that I can't behaving these thoughts and
manifesting my dreams and Ithink that when I would use all
the tools and I couldn't getthose thoughts to stop popping
in, and I understand the waycognitive behavioral therapy
works, like we can't necessarilycontrol the pops, the thoughts
that pop in, but we can controlwhat we do with them, right, but
(35:35):
I was like we're having towrestle victim oriented thoughts
for most of my life and it'slike with homeopathy they just
disappeared and then I couldjust work through the feelings
and that right Is like worth itsweight in gold.
So Tiffany says she sees itwhen women have activated
nervous systems and they don'trealize it.
Joy sees it.
When women go to sort of avictim consciousness Awesome.
(35:57):
Anything else we see women dowhere they're in denial.
We can help women spot theirown denial while they're
listening to this so they canknow they're actually struggling
with the pattern ofcodependency and addiction.
It's way more rampant thanpeople think.
There were a lot of statisticsand studies I could have quoted
at you all today, but do wetrust the organizations that did
the research?
What does statistics actuallymean to us?
But like codependency andaddiction, it's a massive
(36:19):
cultural problem and a massivephenomenon.
Anything else we see womendoing that's denial oriented,
that would help them breakthrough and realize like fudge,
this is me.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
I think, just you know, even with with some of
them, like people that have hadmultiple partners, even proud of
being married, I would sitthere and tell them like write
down similarities between thesepartners there's always themes.
There were so many themesbetween my first relationships
and my marriage.
Like so many themes, you knowthe same way, escalated the same
(36:51):
way, treated me the same way,like not not perfectly, but
there were a lot of themes thatI resonated with.
You know, do you tend togravitate towards men who are
avoiding attachment or anxiousattachment or whatever it is?
You know there are going to besimilarities between the
partners in your life thatyou're choosing whether you want
to see that or not, and I thinkthat that's when I see women
(37:12):
take a step back and be likeshit.
I didn't even realize thatthere were similarities between
these two because they werecompletely different.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Right.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
Right.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Right, you know, I totally get that.
Like the guy married and theguy dated after post-divorce
right, they were radicallydifferent men, but like
underneath it all, there werethemes, right, and yeah,
absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
But that's what I put in my email this morning and
that I sent out to our onlinecommunity about you know,
basically the fact that you knowyou can have a partner who's
different, but it still doesn'tmean you're aligned.
You can still be a totallydifferent book from that person.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
And this goes back to Lori Gerber's 3-H method, right
Is that we think we want likedress as well tall, dark and
handsome, she says right, orlike a certain like funny or
whatever, right.
But it's like if we can't definewhy we want those things, it's
like we can pick a differentpartner that looks different,
acts different, has a differentjob, has a different whatever,
(38:13):
but like, underneath there, theway it feels to be in conflict
with them similar.
The way it feels to becelebrated or not celebrated by
them similar.
The way it feels to be in atight spot in a social situation
with them similar, right.
It's like if we can't definewhy, if we can't really get into
the nitty gritty of how itfeels, and if we've been
practicing, not feeling, we arenot willing to assess that at
that level, right, and so it allfreaking ties together.
(38:34):
Yeah, you can't be stuck in acodependency addiction loop and
be able to define your three H'sand know whether or not you're
cycle breaking.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
I think what I want women to know is that there is
an other side to this.
But in order to get there, youneed to go through the deep work
and the cycles and therecognition of the cycles are
essentially.
What's going to set you free isthe awareness to know what the
cycles are.
There is so much peace in thatto know that you are not crazy.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Right right, right, you know like yeah, but I reason
behind the reason 100%.
All human behavior has anexplanation.
But I think this is where Ihear women get really frustrated
with like, how much more ofthis shit do I have to do?
When does my work get to bedone?
And that's where it's like youmean I have to have a whole
nother chapter of this, and thenwe toggle into the victim
(39:20):
consciousness, right, and thenwe run away from the work.
Yeah, yeah, okay, my darlingdears.
Well, I think we did thissubject justice.
I don't know that we like it'sa definitive guide on
codependency and addiction, butI think we helped people think
differently about it, which Ilove.
Anything else you want to addbefore we wrap up?
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Yeah, I just really hope that our listeners feel
seen that we're not preachingfrom the top of the mountain,
Like we're in it with you and wewant to come along beside you
while you are in this season ofself-discovery and self.
That's why our program we'reall three so passionate about
(40:00):
our program, because it is sucha space to be held.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Right To feel.
Safe to feel.
To develop the capacity to feel.
Painful shit, yeah To feel.
To develop the capacity to feelPainful shit, yeah, okay.
So if you haven't filled outour inquiry form yet for a
different D word, our 12 monthcustomized program that is
integrated all in like rehabyour nervous system.
Feel safe to feel.
Learn how to do intimacy.
Learn how to break the cyclesof codependency and addiction.
(40:28):
Attract different partners.
Feel good in yourself.
Be done with that fuckingloneliness ache.
Can I say that right there?
Speaker 2 (40:36):
I did.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
If you have not filled out an inquiry form yet,
here's your sign to check it out.
You get to jump on a call withme and see if it's a good fit or
not.
Right, because it's not theright fit for everybody right
now, but we certainly want tohelp you determine if that's it
or if there's something else inthe way right, so cannot wait to
connect with you.
All right, we love you so much.
Peace, dear.
(41:04):
Divorce Diary is a podcast byMyCoachDawn.
You can find more atMyCoachDawncom.
Tell me if this sounds familiar.
You swore you'd stop checkinghis profile, but there you were
at 1am scrolling and you alsotold yourself just one glass of
wine to relax and somehow thatstinking bottle is empty and you
swore you'd never go back tosomeone who treats you like that
.
And yet you answered the textDang it.
(00:21):
We don't typically call thataddiction, but what else do you
call it when you can't let go,even when you know it's hurting
you?
Hi love, welcome to DearDivorce Diary, the podcast
helping divorcees go beyond talktherapy to process your grief,
(00:45):
find the healing you crave andbuild back your confidence.
I'm your host, dawn Wiggins, atherapist, coach, integrative
healer and divorcee.
Join me for a fresh approach tohealing grief and building your
confidence after divorce.
(01:07):
Okay, darlings, we are on fireover here today, so watch out.
I have producer Joy and coachTiffany and we are really
excited to talk aboutcodependency today and scare the
pants out of you.
No, no, we don't scare pantsout, we scare pants off.
Scare the pants off of you byreally taking a look at the ways
(01:32):
in which codependency isactually a hidden addiction.
So in today's episode, we'regoing to talk about the hidden
addiction of codependency youtend to relate to addiction
looking like rehab rock bottom.
You know a bottle of vodka inyour desk drawer at work, but
what it actually looks like isalso pouring another glass of
wine just so you can sleep, orrefreshing his social media,
(01:54):
even though he's where youwouldn't right.
The truth is, codependency isan addiction to approval, to
fixing, to being chosen, and thewithdrawal, the actual symptoms
of withdrawal, theneurobiological experiences, are
just as real.
We're also going to talk aboutthe way that the sort of good
girl mentality many of us havebeen raised to have is a trap
(02:15):
for this whole codependentaddiction cycle, right?
So every time you set aboundary, guilt drags you back.
Every time you say never again,loneliness pulls you into
another half love.
That's the trap, right there.
Right, craving connection sodeeply which is right.
We're built for connection butwhile simultaneously, and
probably subconsciously, notbelieving you can have it, or
(02:35):
still carrying a wound fromtimes that somebody's connection
was withdrawn from you and soyou keep sacrificing yourself to
get scraps of it until yournervous system learns safety
which is what we help women doover here is really help the
nervous system embody safety.
You can't think your way out ofthis loop that you're in right,
that sort of ache, reaching forconnection and then just
(02:57):
settling.
And then finally, at the end ofthe episode, we are going to
talk about why this conversationabout addiction and
codependency is so freakingimportant for divorced women.
Because codependency is asocially accepted addiction.
Instead of a bottle or a pill,you get hooked on approval,
fixing and being chosen, and we,if anything, have validated
(03:19):
each other for all of thatself-sacrificing martyrdom.
Bullshit, right, but like anyaddiction, it rewires your
nervous system, your stresshormones spike, your self-esteem
plummets, your identity getshijacked by other people's needs
and, just like alcohol or drugs, the brain map and the
withdrawal that happens when youdon't have access to those
things, the anxiety, theloneliness, the cravings are
(03:41):
real.
And so our approach to divorcerecovery is different, because
it takes this into context andwe're going to talk about the
evidence we've gathered over theyears that you need to hear,
because there are a couple ofvery specific metrics that we've
looked at over the years thatshow us that women are deeply in
denial about this and how youcan specifically recognize if
you are one of those women.
(04:02):
Let's dig in, ladies.
I already talked too much.
Save me from myself.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
This topic is so on point, though, for so many women
.
I'm super excited to dive intothis.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
I just got a text last week from somebody that's
like, oh shit.
I just looked at his Instagram.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I promised myself that.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
I wasn't going to do it, but here I am scrolling
through the photos promisedmyself that I wasn't going to do
it, but here I am scrollingthrough the photos, yep, and it
wrecks us, right, like I've hadmultiple women who I've met with
this week that are listeners,right, admit that they, yeah,
when they drop into that it's sodysregulating, right, it takes
them out for a few days from anemotional standpoint, from a
nervous system standpoint, yeah,okay.
(04:41):
So we're going to, we're goingto unpack these loops, these
three sexy things we're going totalk about.
With regards to addiction,right, but it's truth telling
time.
Talk to me about the ways eachof you see yourselves doing
hidden addiction, right, this,like we think it's this, but
it's really that, right, whereyou tell yourself you're not
(05:02):
going to whatever, but then youdo the thing and it's just to
avoid feeling.
Because what is addiction?
Right, it's a difficultyfeeling a feeling and processing
it.
It's like I need somethingoutside of me to solve the pain
that I'm experiencing, thediscomfort I'm experiencing.
So I need something outside ofme to rescue from this feeling.
So what are the ways that youknow the three of us experience
(05:25):
trying to distance from painfulemotions by using addictive
substances, whatever they arefor us, right?
Speaker 3 (05:32):
I was younger it looked a lot different.
So when I was younger it wasdefinitely alcohol and weed.
Can I say that Of course that'swhat it was right?
Of course, yeah, I always usedalcohol and marijuana to sort of
like just mask whatever I wasfeeling, from a pretty young age
too, right.
So, like my young adult life,that's kind of how I was raised
(05:54):
to do it.
So there was this time periodthen when I went sober off of
everything for several years,and so addiction looks different
for me now.
Right, and I know that a lot ofwomen, of women think well, if
I'm not drinking or I'm notusing a substance, how can I
possibly be an addict?
Right right but now what Inoticed in myself is like I
changed from alcohol and weed toeating.
(06:15):
Late night eating, binge eating, when I'm not even hungry.
Everybody knows what that is.
You sit some kettle chips and Ican pound a whole bag like it's
nobody's business, like they'redelicious, right.
So to me like.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I posted this meme recently that said so, I'm
really disappointed to find outthat a serving size of potato
chip is 12 chips.
Girl, I eat 12 chips.
Just trying to decide if I wantto eat chips or not.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
You got to get that good flavor, you know, like
whatever.
So to me it looked likeovereating at times.
To me it looked like exercisingtoo much at some times.
It looked like scrolling on myphone, Any sort of behavior
where you are checking outmentally because you don't want
to feel, and those are the moresubtle things where sometimes
it's harder to recognize whenyou're doing it because it is
(07:01):
such a sneaky, insidious.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Yeah Well, and yeah well, and we?
Speaker 3 (07:07):
go.
Yeah, when I knew that I had aproblem with social media in
particular, it was to the factwhere I would literally just get
on my phone and I'd knowexactly where that social media
icon was.
Yeah, you could do it and whenI moved the icon to another page
.
I still was in the habit ofgetting up and pushing on the
same freaking icon, like it waswild.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Wow, that's really good.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
So I think that, again, when you start picking
things that are different thanwhat people normally consider to
be addictive substances, youknow even sex, even random
hookups like that's alladdicting things, even sex, even
random hookups, like that's alladdicting things.
So I think that you have to bereally careful about what are
you doing habitually to ignorewhat you're trying to feel.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Yeah yeah, we talked about this last week, right,
because we were all hanging outin person together and I was
like we got to change thequestion from what are you
feeling to what are you avoidingfeeling right now?
Yeah, yeah, Because that's thehabit of the pattern.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Yeah, feeling right now.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, yeah, cause that's the habit of the pattern.
Yeah, and that's easier toanswer.
Yeah, I think that there's.
I think my personal experiencewith addiction is addicted to
the drama, like if, ifsomething's not on fire, my
nervous system wasn't okay, andaddicted to the busy.
So like when I have a space inmy calendar, if I don't fill it
(08:27):
up so I can be calm and I canprocess, I couldn't, I could not
handle that.
So like relearning Dawn, do youremember a couple years ago,
when I was going through likethe recognizing the addiction of
the drama and trying to breakthose cycles and those circles,
my heart literally wenthaywirewire and.
I was palpitating really bad andlike there's something
(08:49):
structurally wrong with my heartand I went to cardiologist and
all these things and there wasactually nothing physically
wrong with me, but you couldwatch my heart just being going
because I was literally detoxingall of that and that was the
moment for me of that, and thatwas the moment for me.
(09:09):
It was so clear to me how, bychoosing differently, my body
was literally experiencingwithdrawal like revolting yeah
it was revolting.
It could not.
I went through a physicalwithdrawal because I was trying
to, you know, reprocess andreintegrate and rewire those
pathways of the addiction to thebusy, addiction to the drama,
addiction to the, and it meantcutting, you know, kind of
(09:31):
pulling back from family membersand pulling back from some of
those behaviors of Facebookstalking.
Like it was a physical socialmedia, mm, hmm, mm, hmm, um like
it was a physical social mediaand so you know like, yeah it's,
it's crazy how your body reactswithdrawals from things that
(09:52):
you wouldn't necessarily thinkwould be addiction in today's
mainstream, you know yeah, Ithink it's.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
you know, I hate to be one of those people that's
like gosh today's day and age,right, because does anything
ever really change?
But I do think that with modernconveniences right, we have
really lost track of how to feel.
We're not sitting outsideanymore, we're not working in
our bodies anymore and I want tosay not because my husband
(10:20):
literally works outside in hisbody, so I'm not trying to
oversimplify the thing but,generally speaking, right, we
are really numb and Brene Brownhas some amazing research right
that she really enlightened usall with back in 2010, 2011,.
Right, about how, you know, shetalked about a beer and a
banana nut muffin.
Right, that we would all doanything to stay numb and to
(10:42):
avoid feeling, and so all of herresearch on shame and
vulnerability.
She taught us that most of whatwe're trying to escape from
with our addictions is shame.
That's for most of us.
That is the emotion we reallystruggle to process, and we'll
talk about this a little more,you know, later in the podcast.
But most of the time, we canwork through feelings of, you
(11:04):
know, fear or sadness, or.
But most of the time we canwork through feelings of you
know, fear, sadness or whatever,right, but it's the underlying
shame that most people, I don'tthink, realize they're actually
struggling with.
They don't recognize whenthat's the thing they're dancing
away from.
And then, yeah, we have allthese behaviors we do.
So the ways that I have done itand definitely still do it is
with like work and achievementand, right, if I can just get it
(11:29):
right and good and perfect andwhat are some other things that
I do.
Yeah, I would say a lot oftimes I struggle still with it
when it's got to do with myhusband or my daughter, like if
they do something that'sembarrassing to me, that will
feel like shameful to me, andthen I'll want to like have them
be perfect so that I don't haveto feel shame.
(11:49):
Right, so it's, those are theplaces where I can still see
shame sort of creep in in littleways.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
I love how people always tell me I just want to
get over this.
I don't want to feel it, I justwant to come out on the other
side of it and it's likeunfortunately, sweetheart, you
have to feel every single partof this to get the healing part.
And it's not comfortable andit's not always fun, but it is a
crucial part of being able toget from point A to point B.
(12:18):
And that's the hard work thatmost people are not willing to
put in.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
If you want the outcomes that people talk about
when they're manifesting right.
Like you know you can't say thatyou want high vibe things and
not go through the shedding ofthe low vibe shit.
Okay, let's talk a little bitabout the sort of good girl trap
loop, right, where you end upaccepting less than because.
(12:45):
And so you end up in this likeI'm craving connection, craving
connection, I'm pursuing it, Iwant to be wanted, so badly.
Right, you end up falling back.
Right, you end up violatingyour own boundaries.
You end up sort of you know,eating the chip, scrolling the
scroll, answering the textmessage, whatever it is right.
And it's because, actuallyright, because I hear a lot of
(13:05):
women talk about the ache ofwanting to be touched, of
wanting to be sexed, of wantingto be cherished, like this ache
of like physical emptiness orthese types of things.
Right.
And the connection piece isn'tthe problematic part, right,
it's that below that ache is adeeply rooted fear that you're
(13:28):
not good enough or you can'thave it right.
There's shame underneath thedesire for connection.
It's actually the shame thatcauses the relapse into the loop
or the accepting thebreadcrumbs or the chasing shit
that doesn't actually solveright.
But people think it'sloneliness.
People think it's theloneliness that's the problem.
But it's actually the shamethat underpins loneliness.
(13:49):
Talk to me about what you'veseen, either in yourselves or
with the women we talked toright, that end up with the
scraps and the breadcrumbs.
Do you see women recognizingthat it's actually the shame
piece underneath or that they'reactually afraid they can't have
it?
Or do you see them reallythinking it's something else
like loneliness, or there's nogood men, or whatever it is?
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yeah, for me.
The women that I work withspecifically think that there's
no good men out there thatthey're not deserving, they're
not good enough or they justwant sex, you know, and they
don't understand why there'sthat like loneliness or aching
part in there.
Usually I tell people to get acat.
Yeah, yeah, get something tolove on, you know, like yeah.
(14:29):
Yeah, connection doesn't have tobe romantic, you know, and I
think that that's where a lot ofpeople feel like if they don't
have a romantic love in theirlife at that point, then it's
like some catastrophic loss andthey can never feel genuine love
connection.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
But I feel that with my friends, I feel that with my
family and I feel that, towardsmy cats, and I know that sounds
silly, but like you know there'sgenuine connection there.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
As far as me, I followed breadcrumbs forever,
forever in my life.
I settled for these bullshittexts from men that maybe would
text me good morning, or maybelook my way, or Right.
Because I didn't feel like Icould attract the types of men
that I was truly craving.
But the thing is I couldn'tbecause I was so fucking
codependent that a man with asecure attachment style was not
(15:13):
going to find me attractive.
He was going to find me needy ashell, and that's exactly how I
came off for quite a long timein my dating journey.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
So even for those women who just want to have sex,
like I don't think they'rerecognizing, Do you think
they're recognizing that?
Actually, that that's, that'sprobably a part of self right,
Like like a manager part or afirefighter part that's found an
adaptive way to perceiveconnection.
It's not actually connectionright, but it's to get that fix,
that addictive fix, Like I willfeel better about myself if I
(15:43):
can have this particular type ofexperience and it solves the
craving for needing to feel seen, heard, understood, whatever
Right and it doesn't actuallyaddress, like it doesn't
actually create connection,deeper, meaningful right.
It's like the dopamine hitCorrect, it's like a hit.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Well, that's what I was just going to say.
Anything and this is an easyway to figure it out, ladies
anything that feels to you likea dopamine hit.
Way to figure it out, ladiesanything that feels to you like
a dopamine hit, that is anaddictive habit, whether it's
the instagram scrolling, the sex, the chips, something that
gives you that instant hit ofadrenaline shopping, the busy
all the shopping.
Yeah, that is a way to know thatyou're using it to cope for
(16:24):
sure, and it's addiction.
Well, society now makes it soeasy to do all that.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
That's it right, you can celebrate it.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Celebrate it, we can do it, ash, we can do.
You know, ordering thingsonline, we could have something.
Oh, my goodness, was it right,like I know.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I think it was like early this summer and I saw a
commercial.
We must have been in an airbnbor like somewhere where we would
have commercials, or maybe wewere watching macgyver, I don't
know, sometimes we'll watchthrowback television shows and
so I'm not right.
When I watch Netflix I don'twatch commercials.
But we were watching somethingwhere there was a commercial and
I saw a commercial for, like,now you can door dash your
McDonald's coffee and I was likewe are crumbling as a society,
(17:01):
not for the reasons people thinkright, but if we have to door
dash our McDonald's, I don'tknow.
You know what I mean.
It's like we are not addressingthe underlying needs as a
society of people for rest,connection, shame, tolerance,
right, healthy ego, like we arenot.
Like spiritual, spiritualawareness and connection.
(17:21):
Like we are not pursuing theright things.
We are pursuing addiction thedopamine hits.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
It's all at our fingertips.
Whatever your poison is, pickit.
It's right there on your phone,which is like you know Hunger
Games.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Does anybody you know love Hunger Games like we do
over here?
But it's like when you look atyou know who lived in the city,
what were those people called,and you know they would have
these lavish parties where theywould eat.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Capital.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Yeah, the have these lavish parties where they would
eat capital.
Yeah, the capital.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
And then they would vomit in a in a bowl so that
they could keep eating.
Like we're on the brink of that, like pretty much across the
board.
It's wild and even like the TVshows that you binge.
I know this sounds silly, butlike every time, if you come in
and ever find me watchingGilmore girls, which I'm
obsessed- yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a million times.
Yeah, but when I'm watching it,not in the background, but when
I'm sitting and activelywatching it it is because I'm
avoiding feeling.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
A feeling because that actually brings me good
feelings oh, I've heard otherpeople tell me about this before
.
What like?
I have someone who watcheshallmark movies because it makes
them feel good that's sointeresting.
So what feelings do you tend toavoid from watching Gilmore
Girls?
Now, I know.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
True confessions, and usually it is a lot of like it
is.
It's like a lot of shame aroundjust things that I'm continuing
to experience.
You think that you know I'mstill in my healing journey and
again, this is what I love aboutour program because the women
(18:49):
in our program get a behind thescenes.
Look at the fact that, likewe're not standing on the other
side of this Right right, likewe are.
But the only difference, guys,between us and you is the fact
that that we know the tools, we,we know what to do for
ourselves, but it doesn't meanthat shit just magically stops
happening in our lives.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
We're still human.
That's right.
Well, can I say what you justsaid?
Can I say what you just said adifferent way?
Yeah, okay, I do think we're onthe other side of this, right,
like, I do want to clarify that.
That's my perspective.
But the thing is, is there'salways a new this?
Unless you stay stagnant inlife unless you stop growing,
unless you're like, okay, I feelfrom this thing and I'm never
(19:25):
going to push myself outside ofmy comfort zone again, there's
always a new this.
So, like, not for nothing, theshit we tackle around here, the
dreams that we all have, they'rebig, and when you have big
dreams and big goals, there'salways going to be new layers of
becoming.
That mean facing new levels ofam I good enough?
Am I worthy?
Can I do this?
Am I whatever?
(19:45):
Right, there's always a newthis.
So I think that's the thing toreally understand is like this
is the cycle of becoming in thecourse of life, right, if you
have a growth mindset, you'realways going to have closets
you're cleaning out.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
But I like that again we can share that with the
women in the program, right,like that just offers another
sense of vulnerability and Iknow that a lot of them were
kind of shocked, like to hearsometimes what we deal with on a
case by case, because we'regiving you guys a behind the
scenes on our relationships, ourmarriages, our parenting, and
you know we all have girls overhere, so pray for us.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
We have a bunch of girls.
There's a lot of girls thatwere over here, oh my God.
Pray for us.
Yeah, I feel like I do feellike I'm a completely different
person than I was you know, inthe Valley, in the Valley.
But I still have that struggleof like am I good enough?
I have a party coming up whereI'm supposed to bring some of my
favorite things and the amountof bandwidth and time that I've
(20:45):
I've taken up in my brainbecause I want to be chosen.
I want my.
That I have taken up in mybrain because I want to be
chosen.
I want my favorite things to bechosen.
I want to be good enough forthis party and like these women
are wonderful and they're lovely, but I have my circle and so
it's like why do I need theirapproval on a simple little item
?
Right, because I'm so, I'mstill.
You still have those momentswhere it reveals to you.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
I don't need to be chosen.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Yes, like this is something I'm still kind of in
the weeds about, about beinggood enough and being chosen and
being, like, socially acceptedand being a cool chick.
You know like it's very, verymuch always a work in progress,
because there's there's not alevel of which I don't want to
be better always.
I want to grow always, and sothere's always going to be
(21:31):
something.
That why did I just react when,when so-and-so said that to me?
Because that's her, that's,that's her thing, that's her.
You know people, people giveyou feedback through the lens of
their story and so, when youcan understand that that's their
story, that's not actually areflection of me, that's the way
(21:52):
she sees me not who I actuallyam.
So it's very it's.
It's very exciting, donna, andI talk about this all the time
where it's like, oh, I just hadthis revelation, and how
exciting, because this issomething that I can actually
work through and clear and, youknow, kind of address in my, in
my sphere, of me being growingand me developing as a person,
(22:18):
you know.
But, but also, yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
When you spot it, you can massage it out or whatever.
Yeah, I think I even.
I think I even use growthmindset a lot of times to run
away from shame.
I'm going to try to, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
I'm going to try to Deep into that.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
If I can just have this growth mindset and I'm
always getting better then Idon't have to I don't know get
hard feedback about certainthings sometimes because I'm a
step ahead.
So it's like yeah, understandthat.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Dawn just put me on a remedy that's like truth serum
and is making me truth bombeveryone else in my life, so
it's almost like she wants me tocome at her in certain ways and
challenge her.
I do.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Subconsciously right, I'm purging Like there's I'm
less affected by right, there'sless pockets to get.
There's probably something.
Let me, let me, like, get alittle more in the weeds about
that.
There's probably somethingabout being blindsided and I
think a lot of women relate tothis.
Okay, Think if I had to say it'smaybe not the shame, because I
really think that I've learnedhow to leverage shame.
(23:30):
I've learned how to spot itinside of me, outside of me, all
around me, in people.
You name it right and so I do.
I welcome critique and feedbackbecause then I know you're
calling out a blind spot I can'tsee, and then I can put it to
work and I can feel better.
Right, but I think it's beingblindsided is probably what I.
So, whatever that is shockpanic, heart racing right is
(23:58):
shock panic, heart racing rightLike that.
And I think a lot of women willrelate to that, because the
woman who is constantly planningwhat she's going to say next
and she's planning eightdifferent versions of the
conversation so she can feelprepared because she doesn't
want to feel blindsided.
So that is probably what mygrowth mindset allows me to
distance from right.
So if I had to work onsomething, it probably would be
(24:19):
my capacity to feel blindsidedand still stay grounded in my
faith that all is well and it'sjust a feeling, and a feeling
can be processed right and beput down.
So that's, I would say, isprobably your biggest yeah,
because I welcome the feedback.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
I mean my biggest right now, which you know.
This right now, something thatI'm still actively or that I'm
working on in this part of mylife, is feeling like I have to
do everything on my own in thisbusiness, in my partnership as a
parent.
all of that, like this theme hasfinally been circling me for
way too long, and I'm finallybeing called out on all fronts
of it, and so now I'm addressingbeing called out on all fronts
(24:55):
of it, and so now I'm addressingit because it is an issue and I
know that it's preventing mefrom moving forward in certain
parts of my life, and so now Ican't hide from it anymore.
I can't hide from it anymore, Ican't numb from it.
Too many people are aware of it.
Too many people have called meout in recent weeks.
I'm like I guess I need to dealwith this now.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
So yeah, I mean so like an addiction to hyper
independence.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Yeah, but it's what's under there, right.
It's like it's what's theinsecurity under there, which is
, like you know, we wereshooting the shit about this the
other day when we were talkingabout podcast titles.
We were workshopping a title,right, and it's like, if you're
not as good at titles, or ifyou're not as good as whatever,
what does that mean about you?
Does it mean you're not goodenough?
No, that's the thing that hyperindependence tries to solve,
right, is feeling like you'renot good enough.
(25:47):
In some way you have to be ableto do it all, or that I can't
handle it all and I have to relyon others, which then creates
fear in me, right?
Speaker 3 (25:59):
So Dawn had sent me this voice message and she was
like you, just there's this fear, this underlying fear that you
have about doing things on yourown, and so I played that out
loud and I automatically justhear, like my partner sitting in
the next room, and I'm like,because I'm like now everyone's
in on my game, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
I'm just like well, yeah, well, yeah, because then
it's number one like okay, so Ican't do it, all right, I have
to rely on people, which is howwe're meant to rely on people
right, but not in the addictiveway where we're distancing from
our pain right In a vulnerableway.
So, yeah, it's like okay, allright, shit, I need people.
But then to be able to trustpeople right is the next
(26:36):
insecurity, the next feelingthat's big and scary and
whatever.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Yeah, yeah, and that's something I've dealt with
my whole life, so that'ssomething that I you know, and
again, I say this all the time.
I would not suggest doing it myway, because I feel like you
definitely want to get healedprior to trying to get into your
next long-term relationship.
I have a very, very patientpartner that has stayed with me
(26:59):
through my own healing andthrough his too right.
But yeah, it's definitely been ajourney and a challenge and
it's crazy to think that I'mstill, at 42 years old,
struggling with still being ableto trust and let go in all
capacities, right.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
In my job, my career, my parenting, like everything.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I thinkit makes sense.
So because, again becomingright, one of the things that
I've been leaning into so muchin the last couple of years is
we don't necessarily have totrust people.
We have to be able to trust Godand the universe, whatever
however you want to relate tothat right.
And so if I can trust that theuniverse has my back and believe
that capital B, believe thatGod has my back, that the
universe has my back, then Idon't necessarily have to trust
(27:42):
people.
I have to be able to have anervous system that's
well-resourced enough that itcan feel safe and can access
faith and positive beliefs, andso I think that that's probably
what the deeper calling is rightIs do I put my faith in people
because people we all fuck up,right?
Like, so you could work onbuilding up your trust in people
(28:04):
all the time, but like, thenyour nervous system is going to
still take hits all the timebecause people are people right
and we do shit all the time thatmakes other people feel
uncomfortable or whatever youknow.
So I think being able to have areally grounded nervous system
that's well-resourced, veryflexible like the band-aid, not
band-aid.
What's that?
What's those squishy rubberband?
(28:26):
Rubber band.
There was a band in there,right?
Nervous systems are supposed tobe flexible like rubber bands.
Right Under stress they'resupposed to be able to flex out
and then, when the stress isremoved assuming your stress
gets removed most people, Ithink that have been living in
chronic fight, flight, freeze,fawn the stress never gets
removed and then the rubber bandgets stretched out and if
you've ever seen a reallyoxidative rubber band, it can no
(28:46):
longer go back to its old shapeanymore.
That's how most people'snervous systems are.
They're stretched to the limitand they're not conditioned to
be able to go back to rest anddigest, so there's just a
constant state of hyperarousal,right?
So you need a well-resourcednervous system that can flex and
bend and return to its healthy,normal shape, and you need a
strong faith in a organizeduniverse that loves you, right?
(29:08):
And then people are just goingto people and we can just enjoy
them.
You know, that's what I thinkwe're all at work on is leveling
up from that perspective.
Okay, let's dig into why thisall matters for the women we
work with who are recoveringfrom divorce.
Right, because, okay, what'sthe upside of healing, what's
(29:28):
the downside of healing?
Because there's both.
Right.
The downside of healing is youhave to learn to feel all of
this shit and there's no runningaway from it or escaping it.
The upside is right you get toactually manifest the high vibe
things because you become a highvibe individual who feels safe,
who anticipates abundance andsaid abundance shows up.
Right, but you know what weoften talk about around here and
(29:52):
I think a question I ask bothof you a lot.
I think that, if you reallyreflected back I've been
thinking about this the lastcouple of days, I bet.
I asked you this question a lot.
I say things like do you thinkshe knows?
Do you think she knows?
Do you think she knows?
That is a question I'mconstantly asking, because do
you think the women who arelistening right now know, do you
(30:13):
think they know, what thedownside is to not doing this
work?
Do you think they know thatthey're struggling with
addiction?
Do you think they know thattalk, therapies and even yoga is
not going to resource theirnervous system to the depths of
what they need?
Do you think they know thattheir nervous systems are revved
?
Because they've never felt whatit is to have their nervous
system not revved?
And how do you know somethingyou've not felt, right, do you
(30:34):
think they know?
So let's talk about the really,really specifically.
Let's get in the weeds aboutthe things we see our women who
we've been working with and ourlisteners right Struggle with
with regards to denial and beingable to recognize the way
codependency as addiction isrunning their lives.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
What I would say initially is that when we first
start working with people in ourprogram, they don't recognize
cycles, they do not have theawareness to know.
All they can really feel issomething's wrong.
Right, and I feel like you know, one of the emails that went
out recently is, like you know,it's time to join this program
when you can't live like you'reliving anymore.
(31:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
So you, you recognize there's like fed up of feeling
like shit, yeah, but like you'reliving anymore, right?
Speaker 3 (31:15):
So you recognize there's a problem.
Yeah, you're just like fed upof feeling like shit, yeah, but
like you might not recognize whyyou're feeling like this or how
to prevent it from happeningagain or how to prevent from
choosing someone like that again.
So I feel like I don't thinkinitially, the awareness is
there.
No, and I don't even think mostwomen, when they join the
program, know exactly what theyneed, right, like they just know
that something has got tochange because they cannot
continue doing it.
(31:35):
Um, I think a lot of our womenwho are mothers, it's when they
can no longer parent in the bestway that they want to, because
they are so in their head aboutlike that's the red line, Like
they can see their parentingslipping.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
And so, or like the way they're responding to their
kids slipping, and that's theirred line.
Yeah, which that's a beautifulrecognition.
Yeah, so if you're like,willing to do something on
behalf of your kids but notyourself, that is a hallmark.
Hallmark of codependency isaddiction.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
And I tell women that all the time that are moms that
I start working with like tostart making those initial
shifts, Like if you can't fightfor yourself in this moment, at
least fight for your kids,because that will click
something over in a mom's mindto bring that mom and bear in
there.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
It's a lily pad to the next thing.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
Correct.
Until she finally startsfiguring out how to care for
herself and to do for herself.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Absolutely, that was certainly my path.
Your kids are a great catalyst.
Yeah, I absolutely would setboundaries on my kids' behalf
Absolutely Before myself Untilthat changed right.
Until, yeah, it wasn't.
Yeah.
What are some other veryspecific things we can help
women see themselves in thedenial racket?
Speaker 3 (32:42):
The activation that occurs during IFS.
For me, if I have someone thatcomes in and is getting ready to
do an IFS session.
I love you know it's got to beon camera clearly, because I'm
studying you.
I want to see what the physicalreactions are to the body that
you're having, and so I haveseen people's eyes change in
session when they start todissociate.
I have seen people start tonervous, tapping looking away.
(33:05):
Their breathing becomes labored, like whatever.
It is right, even if you don'thave the awareness to know
what's going on, if I can mirrorit back to you and show you
that you are clearly in anactivated state, whether you
recognize it or not then, womenstart to recognize it for
themselves.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
So when you're talking to women and you and I
know you have this superpowerand you watch them answer their
own why you watch them starttheir self-reflection process
and stop before they actuallyget to the truth.
Where do you see women getting?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
stuck going a layer deeper and owning their shit.
I see so many times when I'mworking with, when I'm sitting
with a woman and I ask them why,or I encourage them to ask
themselves why and they stopbecause they get to the brink of
kind of where it's at, but thenthey default to it's been done
to me, it's been happened to meInstead of but what are you like
(34:02):
?
Owning yourself and owning yourown choices and like every
woman has, everybody on theplanet has things happen to them
, but it's how they handle, itis their superpower and that's
where they get the best resultand the owning themselves, when
you can kind of click out ofthat victim of like this isn't
(34:26):
this might have occurred to youin your life, your childhood or
whatever, but like you are incharge of yourself and you don't
get to live in this spot ofvictimhood and be the healthiest
version of yourself becausethose two things don't.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
You can't have them both.
Uh-huh, hot damn.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
There it is.
That was fire.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Okay, so let's recap right, so the things we see.
Denial is when we toggled avictim consciousness, right,
like.
But this was done to me andthat I think I know.
I can definitively say beyond ashadow of a doubt that that is
one of the things thathomeopathy really delivered me
from, Because I would know, likeI practice all the things right
(35:11):
, I'm a law of attraction junkie.
I freaking know that I can't behaving these thoughts and
manifesting my dreams and Ithink that when I would use all
the tools and I couldn't getthose thoughts to stop popping
in, and I understand the waycognitive behavioral therapy
works, like we can't necessarilycontrol the pops, the thoughts
that pop in, but we can controlwhat we do with them, right, but
(35:35):
I was like we're having towrestle victim oriented thoughts
for most of my life and it'slike with homeopathy they just
disappeared and then I couldjust work through the feelings
and that right Is like worth itsweight in gold.
So Tiffany says she sees itwhen women have activated
nervous systems and they don'trealize it.
Joy sees it.
When women go to sort of avictim consciousness Awesome.
(35:57):
Anything else we see women dowhere they're in denial.
We can help women spot theirown denial while they're
listening to this so they canknow they're actually struggling
with the pattern ofcodependency and addiction.
It's way more rampant thanpeople think.
There were a lot of statisticsand studies I could have quoted
at you all today, but do wetrust the organizations that did
the research?
What does statistics actuallymean to us?
But like codependency andaddiction, it's a massive
(36:19):
cultural problem and a massivephenomenon.
Anything else we see womendoing that's denial oriented,
that would help them breakthrough and realize like fudge,
this is me.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
I think, just you know, even with with some of
them, like people that have hadmultiple partners, even proud of
being married, I would sitthere and tell them like write
down similarities between thesepartners there's always themes.
There were so many themesbetween my first relationships
and my marriage.
Like so many themes, you knowthe same way, escalated the same
(36:51):
way, treated me the same way,like not not perfectly, but
there were a lot of themes thatI resonated with.
You know, do you tend togravitate towards men who are
avoiding attachment or anxiousattachment or whatever it is?
You know there are going to besimilarities between the
partners in your life thatyou're choosing whether you want
to see that or not, and I thinkthat that's when I see women
(37:12):
take a step back and be likeshit.
I didn't even realize thatthere were similarities between
these two because they werecompletely different.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Right.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
Right.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Right, you know, I totally get that.
Like the guy married and theguy dated after post-divorce
right, they were radicallydifferent men, but like
underneath it all, there werethemes, right, and yeah,
absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
But that's what I put in my email this morning and
that I sent out to our onlinecommunity about you know,
basically the fact that you knowyou can have a partner who's
different, but it still doesn'tmean you're aligned.
You can still be a totallydifferent book from that person.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
And this goes back to Lori Gerber's 3-H method, right
Is that we think we want likedress as well tall, dark and
handsome, she says right, orlike a certain like funny or
whatever, right.
But it's like if we can't definewhy we want those things, it's
like we can pick a differentpartner that looks different,
acts different, has a differentjob, has a different whatever,
(38:13):
but like, underneath there, theway it feels to be in conflict
with them similar.
The way it feels to becelebrated or not celebrated by
them similar.
The way it feels to be in atight spot in a social situation
with them similar, right.
It's like if we can't definewhy, if we can't really get into
the nitty gritty of how itfeels, and if we've been
practicing, not feeling, we arenot willing to assess that at
that level, right, and so it allfreaking ties together.
(38:34):
Yeah, you can't be stuck in acodependency addiction loop and
be able to define your three H'sand know whether or not you're
cycle breaking.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
I think what I want women to know is that there is
an other side to this.
But in order to get there, youneed to go through the deep work
and the cycles and therecognition of the cycles are
essentially.
What's going to set you free isthe awareness to know what the
cycles are.
There is so much peace in thatto know that you are not crazy.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Right right, right, you know like yeah, but I reason
behind the reason 100%.
All human behavior has anexplanation.
But I think this is where Ihear women get really frustrated
with like, how much more ofthis shit do I have to do?
When does my work get to bedone?
And that's where it's like youmean I have to have a whole
nother chapter of this, and thenwe toggle into the victim
(39:20):
consciousness, right, and thenwe run away from the work.
Yeah, yeah, okay, my darlingdears.
Well, I think we did thissubject justice.
I don't know that we like it'sa definitive guide on
codependency and addiction, butI think we helped people think
differently about it, which Ilove.
Anything else you want to addbefore we wrap up?
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Yeah, I just really hope that our listeners feel
seen that we're not preachingfrom the top of the mountain,
Like we're in it with you and wewant to come along beside you
while you are in this season ofself-discovery and self.
That's why our program we'reall three so passionate about
(40:00):
our program, because it is sucha space to be held.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Right To feel.
Safe to feel.
To develop the capacity to feel.
Painful shit, yeah To feel.
To develop the capacity to feelPainful shit, yeah, okay.
So if you haven't filled outour inquiry form yet for a
different D word, our 12 monthcustomized program that is
integrated all in like rehabyour nervous system.
Feel safe to feel.
Learn how to do intimacy.
Learn how to break the cyclesof codependency and addiction.
(40:28):
Attract different partners.
Feel good in yourself.
Be done with that fuckingloneliness ache.
Can I say that right there?
Speaker 2 (40:36):
I did.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
If you have not filled out an inquiry form yet,
here's your sign to check it out.
You get to jump on a call withme and see if it's a good fit or
not.
Right, because it's not theright fit for everybody right
now, but we certainly want tohelp you determine if that's it
or if there's something else inthe way right, so cannot wait to
connect with you.
All right, we love you so much.
Peace, dear.
(41:04):
Divorce Diary is a podcast byMyCoachDawn.
You can find more atMyCoachDawncom.
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