August 8, 2025 • 63 mins
Lo Carmen gets into facing your own mortality, seizing the day and changing perceptions with indie rock musician Queen Kwong, aka Carré Kwong Callaway, who also writes two Substacks - Historical Hysteria (music/memoir), and Diary of A Death Doula, where she explores death and dying as she studies to become a death doula.
Music on this episode used with permission.
I Found A Reason - Queen Kwong from STRANGERS EP ℗ 2024 Eternal Music Group/Composed by Lou Reed /Performed by Carré Kwong Callaway and produced by Darian Zahedi
Stanley RIP - Queen Kwong from Couples Only 2022, produced by Joe Cardamone and mixed by Tchad Blake/Written and performed by Carré Kwong Callaway
Don’t Forget This Feeling - Written by Will Lanier and performed by Carré Kwong Callaway, never released teenage bedroom demo .
The Death Is Not The End Theme composed, recorded and performed by Peter Head.
Death Is Not The End sting written by Bob Dylan, recorded and performed by Peter Head.
Tracks below used with permission from Epidemic Sound:
Muted Conversations Pt 1 by Velvet Head
Gentle Reminder by JF Gloss
Frustration In Disguise by Taylor Crane
Foggy Skies by Marin Klem
Evening At Djupvik Harbour by They Dream By Day
Downstreams by Roots & Recognitions
Diaphanous Dreamboats by Silver Maple
Ghost Town River by River Foxcroft
The repertoire on this recording is licensed by APRA AMCOS.
The artwork used on the podcast was created by Craig Waddell.
Death Is Not The End is created, written, recorded, edited and hosted by Lo Carmen.
©Black Tambourine Productions 2025 ...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lo Carmen (00:00):
With the process of making music, there's always a
(00:23):
push and pull between keeping atight grip on control and
intention and the ability torelease, give over.
Setting up a good supportframework can allow you the
safety and freedom to let go, togo with the flow and trust the
process, to be fearless andopen.
(00:45):
There are many polarities herebetween exploring music and
exploring death.
So perhaps it's not surprisingthat musicians and other
artistic creators might be drawnto exploring death and dying,
both personally and in theirwork.
(01:06):
The musical artist Queen Kwong,also known as Carré Kwong
Calloway, is one such artist.
Last year, Queen Kwong releaseda wonderful cover version of
the song I Found a Reason by TheVelvet Underground on her EP
Strangers, where she reworkediconic songs by male composers
(01:29):
and performers from a femaleperspective.
There's a handful of songs thathave become my own loose-leaf,
collected version of Biblestories, an existential roadmap
or a how-to guide to life.
Songs are where I turn to findmyself and to find answers, to
escape, to learn, and certainlyrics just resonate so hard
(01:54):
they drive a nail in the wall ofconsciousness and become flag
bearers for the soul.
I do believe you are what youperceive is a seemingly
off-the-cuff Lou Reed lyric fromthat song, I found a reason,
that I hear as a powerfulphilosophical proclamation
hidden inside a romantic popsong, a statement of intent that
(02:17):
could just as easily have beenwritten by Dolly Parton or
anybody who ever took their ownraw material and fashioned it
into something that alignedbetter with their idea of what
was cool or beautiful or good.
The same song also gives us theequally pertinent advice, I do
(02:37):
believe if you don't like thingsyou leave, Walk away, Renee.
The overarching theme here isself-responsibility.
You have the power to createand make what you need in life
and move on down the line ifyou're not finding that reason
to stay.
Transforming your perceptions,your existence, your old ways of
(02:58):
living and doing things issometimes the greatest gift we
can give ourselves.
And it's what Carré did whenshe left behind a gruelling few
years of endings and loss andher home in America by moving to
the UK and pressing restart onlife, enrolling in an intensive
death doula training program,while continuing to record and
(03:21):
perform music and write onSubstack, which is an online
platform for writing newslettersand the place where we became
friends, as I also write onthere.
As independent artists, we'vebeen on parallel trains for a
long time.
We've both worked really hardto keep control of our art and
(03:41):
our music and how it's presentedto the world.
And we may well have traumabonded a little over the often
overwhelming day-to-dayrealities of surviving as
artists and the necessity ofbeing control freaks to do it
the way we need it to be done.
I found an interview onlinewhere Carré said, 'I don't play
music because it's fun.
(04:01):
It's a coping mechanism.
It's for survival.
I have to keep playing musicbecause it's my way of allowing
myself to feel'.
It's curious to me that we'veboth turned towards something
that it's not possible to haveany control over.
Death.
But learning about death, aswe've found, has a way of
(04:23):
teaching us more about life andweirdly giving us extra reasons
to live.
Extra...
zest for life.
I spoke to Carré when she wasjust having her morning coffee
in London and I was just gettingready to cook dinner in
Australia and we did our best towork out how all this stuff
(04:43):
works.
Carré Kwong Callaway (05:07):
And the reason, dear, is you I've found
a reason to keep singing
Lo Carmen (05:46):
You wrote that amazing piece last year
about birthdays being intensefor you.
(06:07):
How are you feeling this year?
Carré Kwong Callaway (06:09):
I think every year I feel that with
birthdays and holidays as well.
New Year's especially, I thinklike my birthday and New Year's,
those two events bring up a lotof thoughts about mortality.
(06:30):
And when you kind of take aninventory of your life, I go,
I've been around for this longand what have I done?
And where was I last year?
And last year I said I'd haveall this done and I...
you know only got a fraction ofit done there's that so it's
very anxiety inducing and andalso it's like a reminder that
(06:52):
time is ticking away yeah sothere's always that for the last
couple years I've been tryingto really change my perspective
on that as in to get morepositive yeah I guess yeah
instead of running out of timeyou know not not add that
pressure onto myself um I amkind of admittedly a glass half
(07:16):
empty type of person.
I don't believe I'm negativeper se.
I like to say I'm realistic.
I see that.
But my perspective, I think itcould be glass half empty rather
than glass half full.
Lo Carmen (07:27):
I think realism is quite dark, unfortunately.
Carré Kwong Callaway (07:32):
Realism is quite dark and I think it's
because it's been quite dark andit's only been getting darker,
I think it's kind of out offashion.
So a lot of people have leanedinto coping with reality by
being almost positive to adelusional level.
Lo Carmen (07:54):
I can be a little like that.
Carré Kwong Callaway (07:57):
Are you like that?
Sometimes.
I've never noticed that aboutyour writing.
Lo Carmen (08:02):
I mean, I am realistic, but I do tend to be a
little bit Pollyanna.
I always try and see the brightside of stuff, even though I
totally can see the blackness ineverything.
Carré Kwong Callaway (08:15):
But how do you feel?
Do you think that when you arebeing a bit Pollyanna that you
actually internally feel thatway or is that just how you are
outwardly?
Lo Carmen (08:25):
No, I think I am pretty jovial most of the time.
Yeah, I don't get depressedvery much.
Carré Kwong Callaway (08:33):
I think that's great.
Lo Carmen (08:35):
How are you feeling death-wise?
You've been doing death doulalessons.
What is that like?
Carré Kwong Callaway (08:44):
It has really changed my perspective.
I'm not sure, I mean, I'm notby nature a jovial person, but
it has changed my perspective, Ithink, in a really positive
way.
I decided to train in Londonfor the death doula diploma
because it's very, it's like avery structured, rigid program
(09:06):
here through a training calledLiving Well, Dying Well, a
foundation here.
Has it been going a long time?
Yes, it's been going a longtime.
I believe it was initially setup by a palliative nurse.
And I felt that when I firstlearned about death doulas, I
was actually pretty dismissive,which I'm open about because
(09:28):
most people, when I tell themthat that's what I'm doing, they
jump to be pretty, you know,they tend to be dismissive or
skeptical.
Yeah.
So when I first heard about it,I was a little skeptical too.
Obviously, coming from L.A., inL.A.
there's a very extreme kind ofwoo-woo, I guess, with lack of a
(09:50):
better word.
And also like a woo-wooculture, but also illegitimate,
I think.
It feels very fraudulent in alot of ways.
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (10:01):
Like a bit of a bandwagon that people jump on
Carré Kwong Callaway (10:04):
o Yeah, like it's a trend and then it's
like something to market andsomething to like...
I feel like there's a weirdthing...
in LA that I've noticed I'velived in a lot of different
cities but LA the longest andwhere people can something
starts trending and people cando it part way and then roll
with it as though they've doneit completely so it does feel
(10:27):
very scammy yeah right like lifecoaches
Lo Carmen (10:32):
yes yes yeah and you wouldn't want a scammy halfway
death doula, no that would suck
Carré Kwong Callaway (10:41):
That would really suck.
And I know that the medicalindustry has frowned upon the
idea of death doulas in the U.S.
Not so much here, but I thinkbecause it can be risky if you
have a death doula who doesn'treally know what they're doing.
It could be more damaging.
(11:04):
I think there are a lot offamilies that, instead of
embracing the death doula as theemotional support tool, they
can be it's more skeptical ofwhy are you you know you're not
providing a medical service whyare you come it's like intrusive
to be in um to get intopeople's business at such a
sensitive time in their livesyeah and maybe you know ruffle
(11:27):
feathers with the familieswithin families so all that
being said there are movementsin the u.s that are legitimate
and other ones that I'm moreskeptical of that.
It's kind of like, oh, spend aweekend, give a bunch of money
to us, spend a weekend, retreatsomewhere, and then you can call
yourself a death
Lo Carmen (11:48):
Yeah.
Carré Kwong Callaway (11:49):
And I don't think that that didn't
feel like enough for me.
Lo Carmen (11:55):
You wanted to go deep with it.
Carré Kwong Callaway (11:59):
Yeah, I wanted to go really deep.
Lo Carmen (12:00):
And do it for real.
Carré Kwong Callaway (12:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
and also to legitimize it formyself.
So this program is actually ayear and a half.
Lo Carmen (12:08):
That's serious study.
Carré Kwong Callaway (12:09):
Yeah, it's serious.
I am a certified end-of-lifecompanion, but in terms of the
death doula diploma, of courseanyone can death doula, really,
and it is an unregulated space,but a lot of death doulaing
really has to just do with whatwe actually as humans already
know how to do.
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (12:30):
Being compassionate, advocating, seeing what needs to
be done.
Carré Kwong Callaway (12:33):
Exactly.
But a lot of the program isalso the admin side of things,
which I didn't realize when Iwent into this.
Lo Carmen (12:44):
Oh no, I didn't know that either.
What do you mean?
Like end of life wishes?
Carré Kwong Callaway (12:47):
Exactly.
Lo Carmen (12:49):
Bodydonation, that kind of thing?
Carré Kwong Callaway (12:50):
Yeah.
Exactly, you got it.
So a lot of it is advancedplanning, medical wishes and
preferences, everything alsofrom, like, the death scene, the
death setup, where you want tobe, if ideally, you know, this
is an ideal situation.
But also a lot of the medicalpaperwork is, like, it's a lot.
(13:16):
And I've never been great withpaperwork.
Right.
That's been a real educationfor me.
Very important one, though.
I think a lot of people don'trealize, like, without having
some of these things are likedocuments that you need legally
notarized, etc.
And everything from like the donot resuscitate to any medical
(13:38):
interventions you do want or youdon't want, what you want with
your body, what's done to yourbody after your death, etc.
Death Doula-ing is also helpingwith a lot of funeral planning.
And also who you want in theroom when you're dying, but also
who you want caring for youwhile you're dying.
Who gets to not only be in yourpresence, but if you want to be
(14:04):
touched, if you don't want tobe touched.
We lose a lot of agency at thatpoint.
Yeah, of course.
I think we forget that likemaking these decisions ahead of
that time is the only agency youcan
Lo Carmen (14:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember a really closefriend of mine dying soon after
his cousin appeared on thescene.
It was a kind of slow death andhe basically just kind of
wanted to be left alone with hisfriends.
And once his family turned up,he was like, oh, fuck it, I'm
out of here.
So I can't.
I just don't want to deal withit.
Carré Kwong Callaway (14:41):
Yeah, and that's common.
That's a common situation.
Lo Carmen (14:43):
Yeah, I bet.
So I imagine in that situationas a...
death doula you have to havesome difficult conversations
with family members that mightbe overstepping the mark or even
doctors that might be doingthings yeah I mean
Carré Kwong Callaway (14:58):
that's why a lot of the paperwork
everything there is it comesdown to written wishes and
making sure things aredocumented and witnessed but
also I am not the best atsetting boundaries I have
struggled with that over my lifeand I think I'm better at
setting boundaries for otherpeople and I think But this is a
(15:20):
lesson, definitely, in settingboundaries.
Because as a death doula, yourfocus is making sure that the
dying person's wishes areupheld.
And sometimes family members ormedical personnel, in that time
of chaos or in the finalmoments or hours or days, those
(15:43):
wishes are upheld.
Not even, it's notintentionally ignored, but kind
of put on the back burner.
Lo Carmen (15:52):
Yeah.
Carré Kwong Callaway (15:53):
So that's a big thing is to make sure
those wishesareupheld.
Lo Carmen (15:56):
a u And what do you think drew you to wanting to
study it besides the idea oftrying to have an actual
profession that might be a realprofession as opposed to being a
musician?
Carré Kwong Callaway (16:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I wouldn't say it's thesmartest idea.
I was like, I need to stopbeing a professional musician
and actually get a real job.
get a real job, and then thisis what I came to.
Lo Carmen (16:23):
Yeah, I came up with being a writer, which was
equally ridiculous as being amusician.
You're doing that aswell
Carré Kwong Callaway (16:30):
I'm doing that too, but you've really done
that.
You've really done that.
Lo Carmen (16:33):
It certainly doesn't bring any income in.
Carré Kwong Callaway (16:35):
Exactly.
I have a lot of ideas.
I have so many ideas.
None of them are money-makingideas.
None of them bring any, no.
Lo Carmen (16:46):
No.
Oh, well.
Carré Kwong Callaway (16:47):
Initially, I actually wanted to maybe go
back to school to be atherapist.
But coming from the US, I dohave $80,000 of debt from the
first time I went to school.
Oh my God.
Does that keep going up?
Oh yeah.
The interest rates are insane.
(17:08):
And by the time I actually, Ithink it'll be like 20 years, by
the time I actually pay off mydebt, I'll have paid like
something like 20 grand morethan what I owed in the first
place.
Lo Carmen (17:20):
What did you study?
Carré Kwong Callaway (17:21):
Well, this is where I'm kicking myself.
I have a liberal artsbachelor's degree, and I did
have a focus in writing andliterature.
But as we know, that is not themost
Lo Carmen (17:36):
I don't know.
You're a brilliant writer,so...
Carré Kwong Callaway (17:39):
I don't know if school was, I think,
life...
taught me, you know, it's a lotof what I write about rather
than how I write it, but Ireally enjoyed school and I
really wanted to get aneducation and have discussions
and have great professors.
Well,
Lo Carmen (17:55):
you're obviously a really big thinker and I think
that being a thinker lendsitself well to doing many
different professions and atsome point they may be all kind
of intertwined and itwillallmakesense
I'm hoping it'll all cometogether at some point and make
sense.
But I do wish I didn't spend ahundred grand on a creative
(18:18):
degree.
But that's why I also was like,I can't take out another loan
and I don't have money or timeor energy really to go back to
school.
And honestly, the therapy spacereally turned me off.
Yeah.
Yes, that doesn't help, Ithink, that kind of talk and
(18:38):
that kind of lens and the poptherapy social media stuff,
really.
A bit off-putting.
So have you seen a death doula in action?
What brought you to that space?
Where did you learn about it?
Oh, yeah.
Carré Kwong Callaway (18:52):
Well, I became a grief counselor.
I got certified as a griefcounselor.
And through that, there was alot of talk about bereavement,
like specializing bereavement.
As I said, the therapy space,it wasn't for me.
But then this woman I know,actually, Amanda Decadene.
She writes on Substack too,right?
She writes on Substack too.
(19:12):
I'm good friends with herhusband.
And I was talking to her aboutthis, and she brought up the
idea of a death doula.
And she said, I just met adeath doula, and I didn't really
know what that was and like Isaid I was dismissive at first
and this is back in LA and thenwhen I came I moved to London
and I don't remember how I thinkI was just researching I always
(19:37):
like I wanted to volunteer inhospice etc and that's when
living well dying well came upand the death doula
certification and diploma cameup and I looked into it and it
was just so, couldn't be moreopposite of like what I was
experiencing in LA and in thetherapy space where it was very
like in depth, very clear whatthey, the steps, the trajectory,
(20:03):
what they offer, which eachmodule is about.
And I, and this is when Ilearned that advanced planning
and after death planning was abig part of being a death doula
as well.
And so I just, I was intrigued.
But it was also after I gotinto grief counseling because
everyone was telling me, I mean,as you know, being a musician
(20:26):
and a writer, it's like you'realways thinking of, okay, but
what can I do that's going toget me out of being a musician
and a writer, even though it'swho we are and what we love.
Or allow you to be a musician.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
And everyone was like, well,you're good at this.
You're good at this.
Well, I'm acting like so manypeople told me all these things
(20:47):
I'm good at.
That's not really whathappened.
But it was like, well, you havebeen through a lot of loss and
death.
And maybe
Lo Carmen (20:59):
is.
Maybe you've learned somelessons that will be helpful.
Carré Kwong Callaway (21:03):
Yeah.
Like maybe through thoseexperiences.
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (21:06):
Yeah.
Carré Kwong Callaway (21:06):
And so that's when the death doula idea
came up.
And then I registered for thetraining and applied for the
training.
And then honestly, from thefirst hour of the first training
day, my life completelychanged.
Everything was that.
It was so profound.
Lo Carmen (21:25):
Really?
Carré Kwong Callaway (21:26):
It was so profound.
I can't even...
I knew I wasspeaking to you about it today
and I was like, how am I goingto articulate this?
And I don't know.
I can't really put into words.
Lo Carmen (21:39):
How do the classes work?
Are you online?
Are you in a room?
Carré Kwong Callaway (21:45):
We're in person.
So we're in person.
There was about 20 of us.
I would say 90, actuallyprobably more than 90% of us
speak.
came from nursing backgrounds.
So I was one of the odd onesout.
There were social workers andnurses and former nurses for the
(22:06):
most part.
There was also, I think, maybeone other artist or two other
artists, a writer.
But for the most part, it was alot of former medical personnel
and social
Lo Carmen (22:19):
That had had experience with death and just
wanted to go deeper into it andbe better at dealing with it?
Carré Kwong Callaway (22:26):
Yeah, exactly.
And I was so pleasantlysurprised by this.
It kind of further legitimizedthe course for me.
But also, I had never beenaround people like this.
Like, ever.
Really selfless kind of people.
Yeah.
And it was...
It was, I mean, I came home thefirst day and I was kind of
(22:49):
having a mini midlife crisis ontop of my ongoing big midlife
crisis.
But the one where I was justlike, am I a narcissist?
Like, what have I been doing mywhole life?
Like, I've been so up my ownass.
I mean, I think being anartist, it's kind of...
Lo Carmen (23:09):
Well, you have to focus on yourself and your own
output.
Carré Kwong Callaway (23:14):
And your self-promotion.
Lo Carmen (23:15):
I mean, even just editing a podcast.
I'm spending all day listeningto myself.
I can't stand listening tomyself anymore.
You know, all the things thatI've become incredibly
self-conscious of.
But, you know, when that's yourwork, you just have to suck it
up and do it.
It's part of it.
(23:35):
that are all about other
Carré Kwong Callaway (23:41):
It really made me self-conscious, but in a
good way, I think, where I...
was questioning myself and mybehavior in ways that i think is
healthy
Lo Carmen (23:51):
that's really interesting
Carré Kwong Callaway (23:53):
yeah it was that was the first thing i
noticed
Lo Carmen (23:56):
Will there be a practical element to it?
Carré Kwong Callaway (23:58):
The questioning myself or...?
Lo Carmen (23:59):
Sorry no to the course will you be going into
hospice or anything or will thatbe for you to do at the end of
Carré Kwong Callaway (24:10):
I i am volunteering at hospice that's
part of the work, I mean, that'snot a requirement, but I think
you work as a freelancer,essentially, as a death doula.
As of now, I think the NHS isexperimenting with bringing in
death doulas because here in theUK, birth doulas are very
common.
Midwives are part of the NHS.
So I feel like now, especiallywith the bill that's passed for
(24:34):
the dying with dignity andelsewhere in other countries as
what people know as assistedsuicide.
Mm-hmm.
Because that's becoming moreprominent and legalized in more
places, I think death doulas aregoing to be a very needed
service and widely accepted.
(24:54):
So I am trying to justbasically tick all the marks for
myself and also to set myselfup in a way to have this as an
actual...
I mean, it's weird to call it ajob, isn't it?
Lo Carmen (25:07):
Yeah.
Carré Kwong Callaway (25:08):
But...
For a lack of a better word.
Lo Carmen (25:12):
Just because that's such a weird concept to us.
Yeah.
But I think that it'sinteresting in the UK as opposed
to the US.
I think it's a lot lessmedicalized there, both births
and deaths.
From what I can tell, a lot ofpeople give birth at home and a
lot of people die at home andbodies are kept at home for
(25:34):
longer periods of time.
Is that correct?
Carré Kwong Callaway (25:37):
Yeah.
I was actually shocked as anAmerican, and I think I was the
only American in this courseactually, but there was some
culture shock when I learnedabout some of the practices that
are standard in the UK.
First of all, Obviously, hugedifferences in practices from
(25:57):
Eastern and Western culture, butI didn't think it would be so
different from U.S.
and U.K., but it really is.
And I think that's, honestly,historically, I mean, first of
all, the U.S.
is a lot newer country, and theU.K.
has a long history of of plagueand wars and death and I think
(26:21):
everywhere here even in Londonit's just there's great
cemeteries and graveyards andeverything's built on top you
know it's a very it's more of aphysical proximity to death I
think culturally so I thinkAmerica's done a really good job
at compartmentalizing that likeoh death is something we don't
(26:41):
want to think about and put itthis you know put it out of the
way but also yeah it's a bitmore clinical yeah it's very
clinical but we also don't Wehaven't experienced, my
generation or, I mean, I'mtrying to, I guess it was like
the Civil War was the only, youknow, in terms of America, it's
not like we have had a closeproximity to death and facing
(27:05):
death like outside of our, likeon our doorstep.
We haven't had to like shelterin place.
You know, I know that duringthe Cold War, there were
incidences of that.
I know people are going to callme out on that, but it's very
different compared to the UK andEurope.
Lo Carmen (27:21):
Yeah, where it's so steeped in the culture.
Carré Kwong Callaway (27:21):
It's so steeped.
Yeah, and up until 100 yearsago, most everybody died at home
and were cared for by theirfamily members.
Same with, you know, it's onlyin the last century with, like,
infant mortality rates arebetter, but, like, it used to be
something like 50%, you know?
(27:42):
So if you hadn't experienceddeath up close...
most everyone you knew had.
Yeah, that's right.
It wasn't taboo.
So you were an anomaly if youhadn't had someone close to you
die.
Yeah.
So the practices here are verydifferent, like keeping the body
at home, or even if people dieoutside of the home, there is
(28:05):
the option to bring them backhome for like a mourning period,
and then involving the family.
washing the body or preparingthe body.
I didn't even know thathappened.
I guess everyone who dies in amedical space, a nurse or some
kind of medical personnel cleansthe body.
Lo Carmen (28:24):
I feel weird about that.
I don't want to be washed afterI die.
Carré Kwong Callaway (28:28):
Well, see, if I were your death doula,
that's something I would say.
Write that down.
Yeah.
Yeah, because that's the firstthing I had to do.
Not the first thing, but thelast part of the first module of
the course.
You're your first client, soyou have to do all the planning
for your own funeral and foryour own death.
(28:48):
And it was interesting goingaround the group, how many other
people were saying, oh, I wantmy husband to wash me or my
daughter or...
brother, my mother, whatever.
And I was like, nobody touchme.
I rather, you know, and I waslike, is this coming from like
my kind of sterile, like, youknow, I always thought you die
(29:13):
in a hospital, like a nurse doesthat, you know, but I said,
well, do you want, you know,anyone to wash your body or
dress you?
And I said, nobody I know.
And But these are things youneed to think about, because
also if you're terminally illand you can't bathe yourself or
you can't use the bathroom onyour own, who is helping you?
(29:37):
And I think a lot of us assumeit'll be some kind of medical
caretaker or nurse, butdepending on...
I mean, I know in the UK it'sdifferent, but in the US,
depending on your insurance...
It might not be.
It might not be.
And a lot of people actuallyhave pretty horrible deaths,
even if it's an expected death.
(30:00):
I mean, even if it's a longdisease or a terminal illness,
hospice care will be done, whichis also something I didn't
know.
Hospice care is not done in amedical setting a lot of the
time, depending on yourinsurance.
So you can receive hospice evenif you're living in your car.
But the issue with that ishospice isn't like a 24-7 nurse.
(30:23):
It's somebody who maybe comesby to check on you or administer
medicine maybe twice a week.
Lo Carmen (30:32):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Carré Kwong Callaway (31:02):
Some people, even if you live in your
car, or if you have insurance,you can maybe get a hospice
nurse twice a week.
But yeah, it could get reallygrim.
It could get really, reallygrim.
That's pretty confronting.
It is.
And I think it really made methink, as I was writing out my
(31:23):
wishes, a lot of them were maybefar-fetched.
And to think that we can't...
Lo Carmen (31:29):
In terms of, like, not having insurance to actually
make those wishes happen?
Yeah,
Carré Kwong Callaway (31:35):
or just not having the money.
I would love to die at home ifI have a nice home.
You know, if I'm living withroommates in a crappy flat,
maybe not.
You know, it's those kind of,you swing those things, and it's
a harsh reality.
But I think that's also whatreally has motivated me to get
into this work, is I'm justlike, everyone needs to know
this.
(31:55):
Everyone needs to startplanning.
Also, like the not, I don'thave children.
And I had this weird feelinglike, I think this is normal.
I don't think it's weird.
But when you face your ownmortality, you suddenly can go
into, maybe I need to have kids.
Lo Carmen (32:18):
Yeah, right.
As little servants.
Carré Kwong Callaway (32:20):
Yeah, I was like, am I going to die
alone?
You know, which of course, Imean, the Chinese side of me,
that's a very traditionally likeChinese way of thinking.
But, you know, that's not, Idon't want kids to have little,
just to have little servants.
But you do start thinking ofthat because it's like, will I
dial low?
Practicalities.
(32:41):
Who's going to be there to likeeven bring me food or like
groceries or make sure I canlike, you know, that I didn't
fall over?
I don't know.
It's...
Lo Carmen (32:50):
But even if you did have children, there's no
guarantees that they would bearound to do that.
Carré Kwong Callaway (32:57):
I know this is not a rational thing,
but I'm just saying just likethe things that emotionally came
up, that was one of them.
I also think facing your ownmortality, like you do start to
think of, you know, we grasponto these things like children,
for instance, of like any wayto keep living, even if you're
not physically living anymore, Ithink.
Lo Carmen (33:20):
But I guess you have art that will keep living on.
Carré Kwong Callaway (33:24):
For better or worse.
Beyond you.
Lo Carmen (33:26):
For better or worse.
When I was looking through yourubS stacks before we spoke
tonight and I was reading thepiece about your really close
friend who died and you put thelittle song in there that you
guys recorded.
That is so beautiful.
Carré Kwong Callaway (33:43):
Yes, yeah.
Come see me.
Slipping under my feet Deepfrom the linebacker pedal Caught
(34:09):
a fine home at all the lightsbeen slipping under my feet the
(34:38):
winter was our time not fight itIt's o t such a special thing
(35:35):
to have.
Yeah, so I have two of my bestfriends, like lifelong best
friends, died within a year ofeach other.
Lo Carmen (35:46):
Oh my God.
Carré Kwong Callaway (35:46):
And one killed himself and the other one
overdosed.
Lo Carmen (35:53):
Oh wow.
Intentionally orunintentionally?
Carré Kwong Callaway (35:55):
we're not so sure.
But so...
That all happened while I alsowas like within a couple years
or actually within a year of megetting diagnosed with cystic
fibrosis and initially beingtold like the average lifespan
is 40.
I was 30 when I was diagnosed.
(36:17):
And then two months after that,my husband at the time left me
and had an affair and it wasvery crazy.
And so I went.
Lo Carmen (36:27):
Oh my god - you had a total life turned upside down
and shaken around.
Carré Kwong Callaway (36:36):
Yeah.
my best friend who was also myfirst love and we had been
through a lot together.
I don't know since I was 14.
He was going downhill and hehad a lot of mental illness and
he ended up killing himself.
But it was the month after Iwas forced to leave my house and
(37:00):
I was living on friends' sofasand I wasn't able to go to his
funeral and I wasn't able toeven really think about it to be
honest I didn't ....
Lo Carmen (37:12):
You were just surviving day by day
Carré Kwong Callaway (37:14):
I was in survival mode and the
interesting thing is I was atthe time sleeping on two friends
sofas like kind of ping-pongingback and forth and one of those
friends was my friend Will whoI had also known since I was 14
and so I was living with him andand he's the one who died the
(37:35):
year later and
Lo Carmen (37:37):
So it was a lot.
And you're not sure if that wasor not?
Carré Kwong Callaway (37:41):
Yeah, I...
There's an argument for both,but because it was fentanyl, I
believe it was unintentional.
Like, I don't think he knewwhat he was getting into because
of the fentanyl crisis in theU.S.
So it was hard to...
Yeah, to...
(38:02):
It was hard.
It was really hard to take itin.
And I didn't, to be honest.
I didn't grieve either one ofthem.
I wasn't able to go to eitherof their funerals.
I was still going through areally horrific divorce.
And dealing with the fact thatyou've got a hardcore disease
(38:24):
and you didn't know what theoutcome of that was going to be.
Exactly.
And then at the end of that, mygrandmother...
My grandmother died, and shehad raised me.
She was like a mother to me.
And she died, but I was therewith her when she died.
And when people say, like, anideal death, I just think of her
(38:47):
death.
It was just, like, kind ofperfect.
That's so good.
Yeah, and she was 100, and shewas at home, and she was
surrounded by family.
Like, family even flew in, andshe kind of just, like...
held on until everyone gotthere and we were all kind of
fawning over her and, you know,giving her love and saying nice
(39:08):
things about her.
And that's when she decided todie.
And it was, you know, shedidn't have a long illness.
It happened very fast.
It's like one of those, she was100.
She probably had a mini stroke.
She fell.
And then within a few days, shepassed.
So it was like very ideal.
That really does sound like avery perfect story.
Yeah, and I was just thinking,oh my God, if it could be like
(39:32):
this for everybody, you know,and then coming from like the
deaths of my two best friends,the juxtaposition of, yeah, it
made a huge impression on me.
All of it did.
And getting into the death workand doula work, I really had to
look at some of this stuff andit was very heartbreaking and
(39:53):
difficult, but also good becauseI hadn't really...
Lo Carmen (39:58):
You hadn't dealt with it?
Carré Kwong Callaway (40:00):
No, I hadn't dealt with it.
And my friend, my first friendwho killed himself, he was so...
And my other friend who I wrotethe music with, they were both
so impactful on my life becauseI met them when I was so young
and spent so much time with themof these very formative years
(40:24):
that...
You know, I got, it just mademe think about how no matter how
these people changed my life,like really made me who I am,
really had a great deal inmolding me into who I am and my
taste and the things I like andall the memories, like, and now
(40:45):
they're just gone.
And it's very weird to thinkabout how people who are like so
important and so profound, andI have that song with Will and I
also have Letters from my otherfriend, Blaine, and voicemails.
I still have tons of voicemailsfrom him.
Lo Carmen (41:01):
Oh, wow.
But he's gone.
But he's notthere.
Carré Kwong Callaway (41:05):
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (41:06):
Do you still feel them in ways?
Like, do you feel theirpresence ever, or you just feel
like they're gone?
Carré Kwong Callaway (41:14):
And same with my grandmother's presence.
I have not been able to feelthat.
And I've been open.
I mean, I've listened to all ofyour podcasts.
I know that you are an atheistas well.
And I think, is that me notbeing, am I too cynical or
skeptical or too much of anon-believer to be open to
(41:36):
feeling that?
feeling them but i've been veryopen
Lo Carmen (41:40):
I'm desperately curious like i would love to
have some kind of something somekind of spiritual connection or
to see something but it hasn'treally happened to me but i
certainly am open to that eventhough i don't believe in any
kind ofgod
Carré Kwong Callaway (42:00):
g yeah yeah no me too but the truth of
matter for me at least is that Ihaven't felt.
Lo Carmen (42:09):
I do believe that when you're gone, you're gone.
And honestly, you know, thisis, I'm right at the end of
making this podcast.
And I started work on it areally long time ago.
And at the time, I think I wasjust kind of, I was processing
all different kind of deaththoughts that I had been having
(42:29):
for various reasons.
But one of the things thatreally spurred me on was this
idea of becoming a record aftermy death like I just thought
that was super cool and I wasreally excited by that yeah and
now I'm at the point where Iactually don't care at all what
happens to me after I die.
I'm like don't wash me, don'tdress me up, don't do anything
(42:51):
to me just chuck me out, like,I'm gone.
yeah
I don't care, you know, you can think nice
thoughts about me and send memessages into the air but don't
worry about my body and i don'tknow if that's a good thing or
not but i feel quite at peacewiththat.
Carré Kwong Callaway (43:07):
I mean i think that's what matters is
what you you know is whateveryou feel at peace with is what
matters.
You know um it is weird, i Igot my ash , the ashes of my
friend, uh I mean, obviously hedied years ago, but I didn't go
to his funeral and there wasashes for me that another friend
(43:28):
of mine was keeping and I justgot them last month.
Lo Carmen (43:30):
Oh, wow.
Like what kind of amount?
Just a tiny amount?
Carré Kwong Callaway (43:33):
Just in a vial like this.
And it made me think, geez, youknow, I thought I wanted to be
cremated or, you know.
And then something about justseeing how it's just...
Dust, and of course, that'swhat, you know, it makes sense.
But yeah, my kind ofpreciousness about all of it has
(43:57):
changed too.
I now want to be likecomposted, basically.
Lo Carmen (44:01):
I would love to be composted.
But yeah.
I would love that.
It's not available inAustralia.
Carré Kwong Callaw (44:08):
Oh,isntit?
Lo Carmen (44:08):
It's not in the UK yet either,isit?
Carré Kwong Callaway (44:10):
i It is in the UK, yeah.
I mean, what it is, it's calleda natural burial here, and what
they do is they put you in acompostable...
coffin that is buried in thewoodlands three feet underground
so it's not cold enough foryour body to like six feet's too
cold for your body to decomposeso three feet you do naturally
decomposed and you're you haveto be wearing natural fibers and
(44:34):
you can't be embalmed etc etcand then you slowly decompose
into the ground and I find thatthat's, like, my number one
right now.
Lo Carmen (44:44):
Yeah, that's nice.
Carré Kwong Callaway (44:45):
And it's also cheaper than a traditional
burial.
But, yeah, it is weird, thewhole impermanence of, you know,
things that mean so much to us.
And I'm glad you brought upthat song I made with my friend
because I didn't think about itthat way.
Like, I...
Having a song, a piece of artmade with him that's going to
(45:06):
just keep living on forever, youknow...
Without him and eventuallywithout me, that's prettycool.
Lo Carmen (45:14):
Yeah, it is.
And that whole album you madewas kind of influenced by all of
that that was happening, isthat right?
Couples Only?
Carré Kwong Callaway (45:24):
Yeah, my last, I think it was my last LP,
Couples Only, it was a lotabout grief.
I mean, people kind ofsimplified it into a divorce
record, but I think it was justa record about endings.
Emotion?
Emotions.
(45:57):
It was one of those things Irecorded it in one take without
just messing around while theproducer was on a cigarette
break.
So the doors were open and thePro Tools was rolling and so I
recorded it and you could hearthe birds outside.
But it was just too emotionalfor me to keep going back and
doing more takes M Sometimes Ifind myself Still wanting to
(46:27):
feel how I felt When you held meclose After we found the dead
animal Under the house I wouldspend nights hoping for
(46:51):
earthquakes To shake you awakeJust so you could tell me I was
safe Funny when they said I wasdying I had suspicions you were
(47:20):
crying Only for yourself Funnyhow I pretended For so long that
(47:50):
You were somebody else Littlesquirrel Little squirrel
Sometimes I find myself Stillwanted to feel how I felt Back
when I pretended To believe inyour lies Little squirrel Yeah,
(48:29):
I think that record was a lot ofjust about endings, facing
mortality, grieving, justimpermanence in general, too.
Lo Carmen (48:39):
Yeah, it's a lot of stuff to churn through.
Carré Kwong Callaway (48:44):
A lot of loss.
And I find that what I'mwriting about now is even
more...
When I made that record, Ihadn't really processed my
friends' deaths.
And Substack has helped me dothat in a lot of ways.
And then doing the death doulatraining has helped me do that
as well.
And I think everything thatI...
(49:05):
All of my creative inspirationright now, it is around death
and dying.
Which is interesting.
I think we think of it as...
and I don't need to tell youthis, this is what your podcast
is, but it really islife-affirming.
I don't think this is dark orgoth or depressing.
Lo Carmen (49:28):
Me neither.
Carré Kwong Callaway (49:29):
Or scary.
I think it's only scary becausewe've made it scary.
And I'm terrified.
I have terrible death anxiety,you know?
I'm a control freak.
I don't like not knowing what'shappening.
Lo Carmen (49:44):
So how does your death anxiety manifest, just in
thinking about what's going tohappen?
Do you worry aboutit?
Carré Kwong Callaway (49:52):
Yeah, but I also have maybe a...
I think it's only around whenwe were talking about how we
started this conversation aroundbirthdays and New Year's.
It's like I start thinkingabout it and I'm like, but...
I have so much I still need todo.
How am I going to get it alldone?
And also just not knowingwhat's going to take me, how
(50:15):
it's going to be.
I don't like that.
That freaks me out.
But I can't decide.
You know there's those peoplewhere if they know they're going
to die, you hear about thesepeople, you're like, okay, I
knew I only have three months tolive, so I'm going to make sure
I live it to the fullest and godo this and this and this and
that.
And I don't want to be the kindof person where I find out I
(50:38):
have, you know, only so long tolive.
Like, oh, you have three monthsto live and just like spiral
out every day.
Just be like a sobbing,spiraling out myth.
Lo Carmen (50:47):
Yeah, like the pressure of, oh my God.
Carré Kwong Callaway (50:51):
I want to make the most out of it.
Lo Carmen (50:52):
I did read recently about the guy that, not to make
fun of anybody's death, but...
I'm kind of going to.
A bee flew into his mouth andhe said,
Carré Kwong Callaway (51:10):
Oh my gosh, the billionaire pool
player.
And he died.
Lo Carmen (51:15):
You could not dream that death up, could you?
And then I read about a manthat fell into a live volcano
and survived.
Carré Kwong Callaway (51:26):
What?
Lo Carmen (51:28):
It just doesn't make any sense, does it?
When your number's up, yournumber's up.
It could be the tiniest thingon earth that takes you out, and
you might have all the money inthe world, but it's not going
to save you.
It's just going to happen, andwe're never going to know when
(51:49):
it's going to happen, so we justhave to get good with it.
Carré Kwong Callaway (51:52):
Exactly.
We can't avoid it.
I mean, it is the greatequalizer.
I'm starting a new Sub stackjust based on this alone death
and dying and I haven't put outthe first post yet but I was
writing it yesterday and I wastalking about how it is the
besides birth it's the otherit's the one other experience we
all have to go through that weall have in common and in that
(52:16):
way it is a very equalizinghumbling experience but you know
they're used to that there's aLatin phrase memento mori which
is remember you must die and Ithink that's been kind of used
(52:37):
in with like a goth aestheticand everyone kind of sees this
it is like a goth kind of darkthing but this was a very you
know it's more about seizing theday that was about seizing the
day like and that no amount ofwealth or power or anything It's
(52:58):
going to save you from death.
We're all going to die.
You don't know when it's goingto be.
You have to die.
And so do what you need to do.
Live fully.
And I think that's a huge partof death work.
Maybe that's why I found it soenriching is it is really
life-affirming.
And it changed my life becauseit was a perspective shift.
And I think everyone, like mydeath anxiety has been, it's not
(53:23):
gone, but it's so much betternow.
And I think everybody wouldbenefit from talking about it
and learning more about it andnot avoiding
Lo Carmen (53:40):
Yeah, I just think in general we're also cautious
about having the deeper, hardconversations about the stuff
that scares us or that's ugly orterrifying.
Yeah.
We all kind of want to bepolite and, you know, not go
down dark holes.
(54:01):
But I think perhaps just byreflecting on that stuff, those
dark holes get a little lighter.
Carré Kwong Callaway (54:11):
Yeah, I mean, that's a great way of
putting it.
I also, I think the morecommon, like the more we talk
about it and the more common itis as a, subject matter or a
topic of conversation, thebetter.
But of course now every...
Every party I go to and everynew person I
Lo Carmen (54:41):
meet, I just try to talk to them about death and
dying.
conversations and people werekind of going, oh yeah, right, I
(55:04):
should write a will.
I haven't ever thought aboutthat and I'm really freaked out
about death, but I guess Ibetter think about it.
I feel like a lot of people inmy kind of circle of friends all
actually did something, likeall wrote a will or
Carré Kwong Callaway (55:24):
Wow, good for you for making that
happen.
Lo Carmen (55:27):
Yeah, I feel like I should get a little gold star
for that.
Carré Kwong Callaway (55:29):
But that is so important.
You should.
It is so important.
And honestly, that's thebiggest gift somebody could give
their loved ones and families,especially if they have kids or
whatever, because it tearsfamilies apart.
Lo Carmen (55:44):
Oh, it does.
It's crazy.
That's what I've seen a lot of,I guess, is just gone...
heard a lot of stories offamilies yeah you know people
that were close just thoserelationships going to hell
after death all because thingsweren't dealt with when the
dying person was alive yeah itjust seemed like such a simple
(56:07):
thing that hadn't been done yeahexactly and i think also When
we were living in LA, we had areally lovely neighbor, a Jewish
man who was volunteering athospice a few times a week and
he would get home really late atnight while we were sitting up
carousing in the garage havingglasses of wine and he'd kind of
(56:30):
come in to decompress and justend up telling us these amazing
conversations that he'd beenhaving with these people that
perhaps didn't have any familymembers.
around so he would just go andsit with them he'd be like is
there anything on your mindanything you want to talk about
any messages you'd like me toget out to people anything you'd
(56:52):
like to reflect on you knowwhat was the best day you had he
was an incredibly beautifulpositive person and every night
it was just this really movingexperience just to hear about
what he had been doing.
And I think that was kind ofhis gift to us to make us
(57:14):
reflect on death.
Carré Kwong Callaway (57:19):
I also think that people who like this,
like your neighbor, like himand myself, we all seem to have
this kind of buzz where we wantto share it and talk about it.
And I think that says a lot.
Like it's a very...
It almost feels like everyonein my death doula training were
on a group chat.
And we've all felt this very,it wasn't like unique to me
(57:42):
where I felt this waslife-changing or so inspiring or
profound or enriching.
Everyone feels that way.
And I know people who volunteerin hospice and have these kind
of experiences, it's the samething.
And so you want to go and liketalk about it and share it with
people.
And I think that says a lot,you know.
Lo Carmen (58:00):
Just letting the light in.
Carré Kwong Callaway (58:03):
Yeah, yeah, really.
And it's only made me calmerand more at ease and definitely
more reflective.
And I've definitely changed asa person for the better because
(58:24):
of it.
But I haven't been thisinspired and rewarded by
something and maybe forever.
Lo Carmen (58:34):
Wow, that's really exciting.
And I can't wait to hear howthat kind of ends up weaving its
way into your music and yourwriting aswell.
Carré Kwong Callaway (58:44):
w Yeah, I am really curious about that.
And also, I just, I think, Iknow that I, you know, I worried
at first when I was, especiallywhen I was doing all the
training with all the otherpeople who were mostly nurses,
they all had that, like, veryalmost calming maternal vibes.
(59:06):
And I was like, oh no, Idon't...
I'm not going to be good atthis because who wants an
anxious, spiraling out deathdoula?
But I really trusted in theprocess of the training and
gradually it's really changedme.
I'm definitely...
(59:26):
still who I am and I'm not thekind of death tool.
If you want to be like, ifsomebody wants to be coddled and
told like euphemisms andwhatever, that's not me.
However, I think I provide amuchneeded...
Lo Carmen (59:41):
n You've got a beautiful calm vibe.
Carré Kwong Callaway (59:44):
Oh, thank you.
Lo Carmen (59:44):
I think you will be incredible.
I think you'll
Carré Kwong Callaway (59:50):
We'll see.
I can't be like, leave reviews.
Lo Carmen (59:55):
(laughter) Oh my God, that's so funny.
Carré Kwong Callaway (01:00:00):
Like client testimonials.
Yeah, yeah.
Five stars, guys.
Fivestars
The night I spoke to Carre, Idreamt she recorded a noise
(01:00:29):
album called Seize the Day,Motherfuckers, and I can't help
hoping that dream comes true.
But what I am learning to bedefinitively true on this
remarkable little death trip I'mon is that we all have more
power than we realize totransform the way we look at
living and dying.
And as Funkadelic already toldus long ago, The kingdom of
(01:00:54):
heaven is within.
Thanks so much to Carré KwongCalloway, a.k.a.
Queen Kwong, for going deepwith me here and for permission
to play her music.
You can find Queen Kwongwherever you listen to music and
you can subscribe to both ofher newsletters at
queenkwong.substack.com andDiary of a Death
(01:01:20):
Doubler.substack.com Whileyou're there, you can find me at
lowcarmen.substack.com and comejoin the conversation.
All music on this episode usedwith permission You heard, I
found a reason from QueenKwong's Strangers EP.
(01:01:40):
Stanley RIP from Queen Kwong'salbum Couples Only.
And don't forget this feeling,which was a never released
teenage bedroom demo.
More details on all of thismusic available on the show
notes.
The Death Is Not The End themewas composed, recorded and
(01:02:04):
performed by Peter Head.
The Death Is Not The End stingwas written by Bob Dylan,
recorded and performed by PeterHead.
Tracks used with permissionfrom Epidemic Sound were
provided by Velvet Head, J.F.
Gloss, Taylor Crane, MarinClem, They Dream By Day, Roots
(01:02:24):
and Recognitions, Silver Mapleand River Foxcroft.
And all the details of them canalso be found at the show
notes.
The repertoire on thisrecording was licensed by APRA
AMCOS.
The artwork used on thispodcast was created by Craig
Vidal.
Death Is Not The End iscreated, written, recorded,
(01:02:44):
edited and hosted by me, LoCarmen.
I hope you'll join me next timefor the very last episode in
Season 1 of Death Is Not TheEnd.
And see you on the other side.
With the process of making music, there's always a
(00:23):
push and pull between keeping atight grip on control and
intention and the ability torelease, give over.
Setting up a good supportframework can allow you the
safety and freedom to let go, togo with the flow and trust the
process, to be fearless andopen.
(00:45):
There are many polarities herebetween exploring music and
exploring death.
So perhaps it's not surprisingthat musicians and other
artistic creators might be drawnto exploring death and dying,
both personally and in theirwork.
(01:06):
The musical artist Queen Kwong,also known as Carré Kwong
Calloway, is one such artist.
Last year, Queen Kwong releaseda wonderful cover version of
the song I Found a Reason by TheVelvet Underground on her EP
Strangers, where she reworkediconic songs by male composers
(01:29):
and performers from a femaleperspective.
There's a handful of songs thathave become my own loose-leaf,
collected version of Biblestories, an existential roadmap
or a how-to guide to life.
Songs are where I turn to findmyself and to find answers, to
escape, to learn, and certainlyrics just resonate so hard
(01:54):
they drive a nail in the wall ofconsciousness and become flag
bearers for the soul.
I do believe you are what youperceive is a seemingly
off-the-cuff Lou Reed lyric fromthat song, I found a reason,
that I hear as a powerfulphilosophical proclamation
hidden inside a romantic popsong, a statement of intent that
(02:17):
could just as easily have beenwritten by Dolly Parton or
anybody who ever took their ownraw material and fashioned it
into something that alignedbetter with their idea of what
was cool or beautiful or good.
The same song also gives us theequally pertinent advice, I do
(02:37):
believe if you don't like thingsyou leave, Walk away, Renee.
The overarching theme here isself-responsibility.
You have the power to createand make what you need in life
and move on down the line ifyou're not finding that reason
to stay.
Transforming your perceptions,your existence, your old ways of
(02:58):
living and doing things issometimes the greatest gift we
can give ourselves.
And it's what Carré did whenshe left behind a gruelling few
years of endings and loss andher home in America by moving to
the UK and pressing restart onlife, enrolling in an intensive
death doula training program,while continuing to record and
(03:21):
perform music and write onSubstack, which is an online
platform for writing newslettersand the place where we became
friends, as I also write onthere.
As independent artists, we'vebeen on parallel trains for a
long time.
We've both worked really hardto keep control of our art and
(03:41):
our music and how it's presentedto the world.
And we may well have traumabonded a little over the often
overwhelming day-to-dayrealities of surviving as
artists and the necessity ofbeing control freaks to do it
the way we need it to be done.
I found an interview onlinewhere Carré said, 'I don't play
music because it's fun.
(04:01):
It's a coping mechanism.
It's for survival.
I have to keep playing musicbecause it's my way of allowing
myself to feel'.
It's curious to me that we'veboth turned towards something
that it's not possible to haveany control over.
Death.
But learning about death, aswe've found, has a way of
(04:23):
teaching us more about life andweirdly giving us extra reasons
to live.
Extra...
zest for life.
I spoke to Carré when she wasjust having her morning coffee
in London and I was just gettingready to cook dinner in
Australia and we did our best towork out how all this stuff
(04:43):
works.
Carré Kwong Callaway (05:07):
And the reason, dear, is you I've found
a reason to keep singing
Lo Carmen (05:46):
You wrote that amazing piece last year
about birthdays being intensefor you.
(06:07):
How are you feeling this year?
Carré Kwong Callaway (06:09):
I think every year I feel that with
birthdays and holidays as well.
New Year's especially, I thinklike my birthday and New Year's,
those two events bring up a lotof thoughts about mortality.
(06:30):
And when you kind of take aninventory of your life, I go,
I've been around for this longand what have I done?
And where was I last year?
And last year I said I'd haveall this done and I...
you know only got a fraction ofit done there's that so it's
very anxiety inducing and andalso it's like a reminder that
(06:52):
time is ticking away yeah sothere's always that for the last
couple years I've been tryingto really change my perspective
on that as in to get morepositive yeah I guess yeah
instead of running out of timeyou know not not add that
pressure onto myself um I amkind of admittedly a glass half
(07:16):
empty type of person.
I don't believe I'm negativeper se.
I like to say I'm realistic.
I see that.
But my perspective, I think itcould be glass half empty rather
than glass half full.
Lo Carmen (07:27):
I think realism is quite dark, unfortunately.
Carré Kwong Callaway (07:32):
Realism is quite dark and I think it's
because it's been quite dark andit's only been getting darker,
I think it's kind of out offashion.
So a lot of people have leanedinto coping with reality by
being almost positive to adelusional level.
Lo Carmen (07:54):
I can be a little like that.
Carré Kwong Callaway (07:57):
Are you like that?
Sometimes.
I've never noticed that aboutyour writing.
Lo Carmen (08:02):
I mean, I am realistic, but I do tend to be a
little bit Pollyanna.
I always try and see the brightside of stuff, even though I
totally can see the blackness ineverything.
Carré Kwong Callaway (08:15):
But how do you feel?
Do you think that when you arebeing a bit Pollyanna that you
actually internally feel thatway or is that just how you are
outwardly?
Lo Carmen (08:25):
No, I think I am pretty jovial most of the time.
Yeah, I don't get depressedvery much.
Carré Kwong Callaway (08:33):
I think that's great.
Lo Carmen (08:35):
How are you feeling death-wise?
You've been doing death doulalessons.
What is that like?
Carré Kwong Callaway (08:44):
It has really changed my perspective.
I'm not sure, I mean, I'm notby nature a jovial person, but
it has changed my perspective, Ithink, in a really positive
way.
I decided to train in Londonfor the death doula diploma
because it's very, it's like avery structured, rigid program
(09:06):
here through a training calledLiving Well, Dying Well, a
foundation here.
Has it been going a long time?
Yes, it's been going a longtime.
I believe it was initially setup by a palliative nurse.
And I felt that when I firstlearned about death doulas, I
was actually pretty dismissive,which I'm open about because
(09:28):
most people, when I tell themthat that's what I'm doing, they
jump to be pretty, you know,they tend to be dismissive or
skeptical.
Yeah.
So when I first heard about it,I was a little skeptical too.
Obviously, coming from L.A., inL.A.
there's a very extreme kind ofwoo-woo, I guess, with lack of a
(09:50):
better word.
And also like a woo-wooculture, but also illegitimate,
I think.
It feels very fraudulent in alot of ways.
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (10:01):
Like a bit of a bandwagon that people jump on
Carré Kwong Callaway (10:04):
o Yeah, like it's a trend and then it's
like something to market andsomething to like...
I feel like there's a weirdthing...
in LA that I've noticed I'velived in a lot of different
cities but LA the longest andwhere people can something
starts trending and people cando it part way and then roll
with it as though they've doneit completely so it does feel
(10:27):
very scammy yeah right like lifecoaches
Lo Carmen (10:32):
yes yes yeah and you wouldn't want a scammy halfway
death doula, no that would suck
Carré Kwong Callaway (10:41):
That would really suck.
And I know that the medicalindustry has frowned upon the
idea of death doulas in the U.S.
Not so much here, but I thinkbecause it can be risky if you
have a death doula who doesn'treally know what they're doing.
It could be more damaging.
(11:04):
I think there are a lot offamilies that, instead of
embracing the death doula as theemotional support tool, they
can be it's more skeptical ofwhy are you you know you're not
providing a medical service whyare you come it's like intrusive
to be in um to get intopeople's business at such a
sensitive time in their livesyeah and maybe you know ruffle
(11:27):
feathers with the familieswithin families so all that
being said there are movementsin the u.s that are legitimate
and other ones that I'm moreskeptical of that.
It's kind of like, oh, spend aweekend, give a bunch of money
to us, spend a weekend, retreatsomewhere, and then you can call
yourself a death
Lo Carmen (11:48):
Yeah.
Carré Kwong Callaway (11:49):
And I don't think that that didn't
feel like enough for me.
Lo Carmen (11:55):
You wanted to go deep with it.
Carré Kwong Callaway (11:59):
Yeah, I wanted to go really deep.
Lo Carmen (12:00):
And do it for real.
Carré Kwong Callaway (12:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
and also to legitimize it formyself.
So this program is actually ayear and a half.
Lo Carmen (12:08):
That's serious study.
Carré Kwong Callaway (12:09):
Yeah, it's serious.
I am a certified end-of-lifecompanion, but in terms of the
death doula diploma, of courseanyone can death doula, really,
and it is an unregulated space,but a lot of death doulaing
really has to just do with whatwe actually as humans already
know how to do.
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (12:30):
Being compassionate, advocating, seeing what needs to
be done.
Carré Kwong Callaway (12:33):
Exactly.
But a lot of the program isalso the admin side of things,
which I didn't realize when Iwent into this.
Lo Carmen (12:44):
Oh no, I didn't know that either.
What do you mean?
Like end of life wishes?
Carré Kwong Callaway (12:47):
Exactly.
Lo Carmen (12:49):
Bodydonation, that kind of thing?
Carré Kwong Callaway (12:50):
Yeah.
Exactly, you got it.
So a lot of it is advancedplanning, medical wishes and
preferences, everything alsofrom, like, the death scene, the
death setup, where you want tobe, if ideally, you know, this
is an ideal situation.
But also a lot of the medicalpaperwork is, like, it's a lot.
(13:16):
And I've never been great withpaperwork.
Right.
That's been a real educationfor me.
Very important one, though.
I think a lot of people don'trealize, like, without having
some of these things are likedocuments that you need legally
notarized, etc.
And everything from like the donot resuscitate to any medical
(13:38):
interventions you do want or youdon't want, what you want with
your body, what's done to yourbody after your death, etc.
Death Doula-ing is also helpingwith a lot of funeral planning.
And also who you want in theroom when you're dying, but also
who you want caring for youwhile you're dying.
Who gets to not only be in yourpresence, but if you want to be
(14:04):
touched, if you don't want tobe touched.
We lose a lot of agency at thatpoint.
Yeah, of course.
I think we forget that likemaking these decisions ahead of
that time is the only agency youcan
Lo Carmen (14:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember a really closefriend of mine dying soon after
his cousin appeared on thescene.
It was a kind of slow death andhe basically just kind of
wanted to be left alone with hisfriends.
And once his family turned up,he was like, oh, fuck it, I'm
out of here.
So I can't.
I just don't want to deal withit.
Carré Kwong Callaway (14:41):
Yeah, and that's common.
That's a common situation.
Lo Carmen (14:43):
Yeah, I bet.
So I imagine in that situationas a...
death doula you have to havesome difficult conversations
with family members that mightbe overstepping the mark or even
doctors that might be doingthings yeah I mean
Carré Kwong Callaway (14:58):
that's why a lot of the paperwork
everything there is it comesdown to written wishes and
making sure things aredocumented and witnessed but
also I am not the best atsetting boundaries I have
struggled with that over my lifeand I think I'm better at
setting boundaries for otherpeople and I think But this is a
(15:20):
lesson, definitely, in settingboundaries.
Because as a death doula, yourfocus is making sure that the
dying person's wishes areupheld.
And sometimes family members ormedical personnel, in that time
of chaos or in the finalmoments or hours or days, those
(15:43):
wishes are upheld.
Not even, it's notintentionally ignored, but kind
of put on the back burner.
Lo Carmen (15:52):
Yeah.
Carré Kwong Callaway (15:53):
So that's a big thing is to make sure
those wishesareupheld.
Lo Carmen (15:56):
a u And what do you think drew you to wanting to
study it besides the idea oftrying to have an actual
profession that might be a realprofession as opposed to being a
musician?
Carré Kwong Callaway (16:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I wouldn't say it's thesmartest idea.
I was like, I need to stopbeing a professional musician
and actually get a real job.
get a real job, and then thisis what I came to.
Lo Carmen (16:23):
Yeah, I came up with being a writer, which was
equally ridiculous as being amusician.
You're doing that aswell
Carré Kwong Callaway (16:30):
I'm doing that too, but you've really done
that.
You've really done that.
Lo Carmen (16:33):
It certainly doesn't bring any income in.
Carré Kwong Callaway (16:35):
Exactly.
I have a lot of ideas.
I have so many ideas.
None of them are money-makingideas.
None of them bring any, no.
Lo Carmen (16:46):
No.
Oh, well.
Carré Kwong Callaway (16:47):
Initially, I actually wanted to maybe go
back to school to be atherapist.
But coming from the US, I dohave $80,000 of debt from the
first time I went to school.
Oh my God.
Does that keep going up?
Oh yeah.
The interest rates are insane.
(17:08):
And by the time I actually, Ithink it'll be like 20 years, by
the time I actually pay off mydebt, I'll have paid like
something like 20 grand morethan what I owed in the first
place.
Lo Carmen (17:20):
What did you study?
Carré Kwong Callaway (17:21):
Well, this is where I'm kicking myself.
I have a liberal artsbachelor's degree, and I did
have a focus in writing andliterature.
But as we know, that is not themost
Lo Carmen (17:36):
I don't know.
You're a brilliant writer,so...
Carré Kwong Callaway (17:39):
I don't know if school was, I think,
life...
taught me, you know, it's a lotof what I write about rather
than how I write it, but Ireally enjoyed school and I
really wanted to get aneducation and have discussions
and have great professors.
Well,
Lo Carmen (17:55):
you're obviously a really big thinker and I think
that being a thinker lendsitself well to doing many
different professions and atsome point they may be all kind
of intertwined and itwillallmakesense
I'm hoping it'll all cometogether at some point and make
sense.
But I do wish I didn't spend ahundred grand on a creative
(18:18):
degree.
But that's why I also was like,I can't take out another loan
and I don't have money or timeor energy really to go back to
school.
And honestly, the therapy spacereally turned me off.
Yeah.
Yes, that doesn't help, Ithink, that kind of talk and
(18:38):
that kind of lens and the poptherapy social media stuff,
really.
A bit off-putting.
So have you seen a death doula in action?
What brought you to that space?
Where did you learn about it?
Oh, yeah.
Carré Kwong Callaway (18:52):
Well, I became a grief counselor.
I got certified as a griefcounselor.
And through that, there was alot of talk about bereavement,
like specializing bereavement.
As I said, the therapy space,it wasn't for me.
But then this woman I know,actually, Amanda Decadene.
She writes on Substack too,right?
She writes on Substack too.
(19:12):
I'm good friends with herhusband.
And I was talking to her aboutthis, and she brought up the
idea of a death doula.
And she said, I just met adeath doula, and I didn't really
know what that was and like Isaid I was dismissive at first
and this is back in LA and thenwhen I came I moved to London
and I don't remember how I thinkI was just researching I always
(19:37):
like I wanted to volunteer inhospice etc and that's when
living well dying well came upand the death doula
certification and diploma cameup and I looked into it and it
was just so, couldn't be moreopposite of like what I was
experiencing in LA and in thetherapy space where it was very
like in depth, very clear whatthey, the steps, the trajectory,
(20:03):
what they offer, which eachmodule is about.
And I, and this is when Ilearned that advanced planning
and after death planning was abig part of being a death doula
as well.
And so I just, I was intrigued.
But it was also after I gotinto grief counseling because
everyone was telling me, I mean,as you know, being a musician
(20:26):
and a writer, it's like you'realways thinking of, okay, but
what can I do that's going toget me out of being a musician
and a writer, even though it'swho we are and what we love.
Or allow you to be a musician.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
And everyone was like, well,you're good at this.
You're good at this.
Well, I'm acting like so manypeople told me all these things
(20:47):
I'm good at.
That's not really whathappened.
But it was like, well, you havebeen through a lot of loss and
death.
And maybe
Lo Carmen (20:59):
is.
Maybe you've learned somelessons that will be helpful.
Carré Kwong Callaway (21:03):
Yeah.
Like maybe through thoseexperiences.
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (21:06):
Yeah.
Carré Kwong Callaway (21:06):
And so that's when the death doula idea
came up.
And then I registered for thetraining and applied for the
training.
And then honestly, from thefirst hour of the first training
day, my life completelychanged.
Everything was that.
It was so profound.
Lo Carmen (21:25):
Really?
Carré Kwong Callaway (21:26):
It was so profound.
I can't even...
I knew I wasspeaking to you about it today
and I was like, how am I goingto articulate this?
And I don't know.
I can't really put into words.
Lo Carmen (21:39):
How do the classes work?
Are you online?
Are you in a room?
Carré Kwong Callaway (21:45):
We're in person.
So we're in person.
There was about 20 of us.
I would say 90, actuallyprobably more than 90% of us
speak.
came from nursing backgrounds.
So I was one of the odd onesout.
There were social workers andnurses and former nurses for the
(22:06):
most part.
There was also, I think, maybeone other artist or two other
artists, a writer.
But for the most part, it was alot of former medical personnel
and social
Lo Carmen (22:19):
That had had experience with death and just
wanted to go deeper into it andbe better at dealing with it?
Carré Kwong Callaway (22:26):
Yeah, exactly.
And I was so pleasantlysurprised by this.
It kind of further legitimizedthe course for me.
But also, I had never beenaround people like this.
Like, ever.
Really selfless kind of people.
Yeah.
And it was...
It was, I mean, I came home thefirst day and I was kind of
(22:49):
having a mini midlife crisis ontop of my ongoing big midlife
crisis.
But the one where I was justlike, am I a narcissist?
Like, what have I been doing mywhole life?
Like, I've been so up my ownass.
I mean, I think being anartist, it's kind of...
Lo Carmen (23:09):
Well, you have to focus on yourself and your own
output.
Carré Kwong Callaway (23:14):
And your self-promotion.
Lo Carmen (23:15):
I mean, even just editing a podcast.
I'm spending all day listeningto myself.
I can't stand listening tomyself anymore.
You know, all the things thatI've become incredibly
self-conscious of.
But, you know, when that's yourwork, you just have to suck it
up and do it.
It's part of it.
(23:35):
that are all about other
Carré Kwong Callaway (23:41):
It really made me self-conscious, but in a
good way, I think, where I...
was questioning myself and mybehavior in ways that i think is
healthy
Lo Carmen (23:51):
that's really interesting
Carré Kwong Callaway (23:53):
yeah it was that was the first thing i
noticed
Lo Carmen (23:56):
Will there be a practical element to it?
Carré Kwong Callaway (23:58):
The questioning myself or...?
Lo Carmen (23:59):
Sorry no to the course will you be going into
hospice or anything or will thatbe for you to do at the end of
Carré Kwong Callaway (24:10):
I i am volunteering at hospice that's
part of the work, I mean, that'snot a requirement, but I think
you work as a freelancer,essentially, as a death doula.
As of now, I think the NHS isexperimenting with bringing in
death doulas because here in theUK, birth doulas are very
common.
Midwives are part of the NHS.
So I feel like now, especiallywith the bill that's passed for
(24:34):
the dying with dignity andelsewhere in other countries as
what people know as assistedsuicide.
Mm-hmm.
Because that's becoming moreprominent and legalized in more
places, I think death doulas aregoing to be a very needed
service and widely accepted.
(24:54):
So I am trying to justbasically tick all the marks for
myself and also to set myselfup in a way to have this as an
actual...
I mean, it's weird to call it ajob, isn't it?
Lo Carmen (25:07):
Yeah.
Carré Kwong Callaway (25:08):
But...
For a lack of a better word.
Lo Carmen (25:12):
Just because that's such a weird concept to us.
Yeah.
But I think that it'sinteresting in the UK as opposed
to the US.
I think it's a lot lessmedicalized there, both births
and deaths.
From what I can tell, a lot ofpeople give birth at home and a
lot of people die at home andbodies are kept at home for
(25:34):
longer periods of time.
Is that correct?
Carré Kwong Callaway (25:37):
Yeah.
I was actually shocked as anAmerican, and I think I was the
only American in this courseactually, but there was some
culture shock when I learnedabout some of the practices that
are standard in the UK.
First of all, Obviously, hugedifferences in practices from
(25:57):
Eastern and Western culture, butI didn't think it would be so
different from U.S.
and U.K., but it really is.
And I think that's, honestly,historically, I mean, first of
all, the U.S.
is a lot newer country, and theU.K.
has a long history of of plagueand wars and death and I think
(26:21):
everywhere here even in Londonit's just there's great
cemeteries and graveyards andeverything's built on top you
know it's a very it's more of aphysical proximity to death I
think culturally so I thinkAmerica's done a really good job
at compartmentalizing that likeoh death is something we don't
(26:41):
want to think about and put itthis you know put it out of the
way but also yeah it's a bitmore clinical yeah it's very
clinical but we also don't Wehaven't experienced, my
generation or, I mean, I'mtrying to, I guess it was like
the Civil War was the only, youknow, in terms of America, it's
not like we have had a closeproximity to death and facing
(27:05):
death like outside of our, likeon our doorstep.
We haven't had to like shelterin place.
You know, I know that duringthe Cold War, there were
incidences of that.
I know people are going to callme out on that, but it's very
different compared to the UK andEurope.
Lo Carmen (27:21):
Yeah, where it's so steeped in the culture.
Carré Kwong Callaway (27:21):
It's so steeped.
Yeah, and up until 100 yearsago, most everybody died at home
and were cared for by theirfamily members.
Same with, you know, it's onlyin the last century with, like,
infant mortality rates arebetter, but, like, it used to be
something like 50%, you know?
(27:42):
So if you hadn't experienceddeath up close...
most everyone you knew had.
Yeah, that's right.
It wasn't taboo.
So you were an anomaly if youhadn't had someone close to you
die.
Yeah.
So the practices here are verydifferent, like keeping the body
at home, or even if people dieoutside of the home, there is
(28:05):
the option to bring them backhome for like a mourning period,
and then involving the family.
washing the body or preparingthe body.
I didn't even know thathappened.
I guess everyone who dies in amedical space, a nurse or some
kind of medical personnel cleansthe body.
Lo Carmen (28:24):
I feel weird about that.
I don't want to be washed afterI die.
Carré Kwong Callaway (28:28):
Well, see, if I were your death doula,
that's something I would say.
Write that down.
Yeah.
Yeah, because that's the firstthing I had to do.
Not the first thing, but thelast part of the first module of
the course.
You're your first client, soyou have to do all the planning
for your own funeral and foryour own death.
(28:48):
And it was interesting goingaround the group, how many other
people were saying, oh, I wantmy husband to wash me or my
daughter or...
brother, my mother, whatever.
And I was like, nobody touchme.
I rather, you know, and I waslike, is this coming from like
my kind of sterile, like, youknow, I always thought you die
(29:13):
in a hospital, like a nurse doesthat, you know, but I said,
well, do you want, you know,anyone to wash your body or
dress you?
And I said, nobody I know.
And But these are things youneed to think about, because
also if you're terminally illand you can't bathe yourself or
you can't use the bathroom onyour own, who is helping you?
(29:37):
And I think a lot of us assumeit'll be some kind of medical
caretaker or nurse, butdepending on...
I mean, I know in the UK it'sdifferent, but in the US,
depending on your insurance...
It might not be.
It might not be.
And a lot of people actuallyhave pretty horrible deaths,
even if it's an expected death.
(30:00):
I mean, even if it's a longdisease or a terminal illness,
hospice care will be done, whichis also something I didn't
know.
Hospice care is not done in amedical setting a lot of the
time, depending on yourinsurance.
So you can receive hospice evenif you're living in your car.
But the issue with that ishospice isn't like a 24-7 nurse.
(30:23):
It's somebody who maybe comesby to check on you or administer
medicine maybe twice a week.
Lo Carmen (30:32):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Carré Kwong Callaway (31:02):
Some people, even if you live in your
car, or if you have insurance,you can maybe get a hospice
nurse twice a week.
But yeah, it could get reallygrim.
It could get really, reallygrim.
That's pretty confronting.
It is.
And I think it really made methink, as I was writing out my
(31:23):
wishes, a lot of them were maybefar-fetched.
And to think that we can't...
Lo Carmen (31:29):
In terms of, like, not having insurance to actually
make those wishes happen?
Yeah,
Carré Kwong Callaway (31:35):
or just not having the money.
I would love to die at home ifI have a nice home.
You know, if I'm living withroommates in a crappy flat,
maybe not.
You know, it's those kind of,you swing those things, and it's
a harsh reality.
But I think that's also whatreally has motivated me to get
into this work, is I'm justlike, everyone needs to know
this.
(31:55):
Everyone needs to startplanning.
Also, like the not, I don'thave children.
And I had this weird feelinglike, I think this is normal.
I don't think it's weird.
But when you face your ownmortality, you suddenly can go
into, maybe I need to have kids.
Lo Carmen (32:18):
Yeah, right.
As little servants.
Carré Kwong Callaway (32:20):
Yeah, I was like, am I going to die
alone?
You know, which of course, Imean, the Chinese side of me,
that's a very traditionally likeChinese way of thinking.
But, you know, that's not, Idon't want kids to have little,
just to have little servants.
But you do start thinking ofthat because it's like, will I
dial low?
Practicalities.
(32:41):
Who's going to be there to likeeven bring me food or like
groceries or make sure I canlike, you know, that I didn't
fall over?
I don't know.
It's...
Lo Carmen (32:50):
But even if you did have children, there's no
guarantees that they would bearound to do that.
Carré Kwong Callaway (32:57):
I know this is not a rational thing,
but I'm just saying just likethe things that emotionally came
up, that was one of them.
I also think facing your ownmortality, like you do start to
think of, you know, we grasponto these things like children,
for instance, of like any wayto keep living, even if you're
not physically living anymore, Ithink.
Lo Carmen (33:20):
But I guess you have art that will keep living on.
Carré Kwong Callaway (33:24):
For better or worse.
Beyond you.
Lo Carmen (33:26):
For better or worse.
When I was looking through yourubS stacks before we spoke
tonight and I was reading thepiece about your really close
friend who died and you put thelittle song in there that you
guys recorded.
That is so beautiful.
Carré Kwong Callaway (33:43):
Yes, yeah.
Come see me.
Slipping under my feet Deepfrom the linebacker pedal Caught
(34:09):
a fine home at all the lightsbeen slipping under my feet the
(34:38):
winter was our time not fight itIt's o t such a special thing
(35:35):
to have.
Yeah, so I have two of my bestfriends, like lifelong best
friends, died within a year ofeach other.
Lo Carmen (35:46):
Oh my God.
Carré Kwong Callaway (35:46):
And one killed himself and the other one
overdosed.
Lo Carmen (35:53):
Oh wow.
Intentionally orunintentionally?
Carré Kwong Callaway (35:55):
we're not so sure.
But so...
That all happened while I alsowas like within a couple years
or actually within a year of megetting diagnosed with cystic
fibrosis and initially beingtold like the average lifespan
is 40.
I was 30 when I was diagnosed.
(36:17):
And then two months after that,my husband at the time left me
and had an affair and it wasvery crazy.
And so I went.
Lo Carmen (36:27):
Oh my god - you had a total life turned upside down
and shaken around.
Carré Kwong Callaway (36:36):
Yeah.
my best friend who was also myfirst love and we had been
through a lot together.
I don't know since I was 14.
He was going downhill and hehad a lot of mental illness and
he ended up killing himself.
But it was the month after Iwas forced to leave my house and
(37:00):
I was living on friends' sofasand I wasn't able to go to his
funeral and I wasn't able toeven really think about it to be
honest I didn't ....
Lo Carmen (37:12):
You were just surviving day by day
Carré Kwong Callaway (37:14):
I was in survival mode and the
interesting thing is I was atthe time sleeping on two friends
sofas like kind of ping-pongingback and forth and one of those
friends was my friend Will whoI had also known since I was 14
and so I was living with him andand he's the one who died the
(37:35):
year later and
Lo Carmen (37:37):
So it was a lot.
And you're not sure if that wasor not?
Carré Kwong Callaway (37:41):
Yeah, I...
There's an argument for both,but because it was fentanyl, I
believe it was unintentional.
Like, I don't think he knewwhat he was getting into because
of the fentanyl crisis in theU.S.
So it was hard to...
Yeah, to...
(38:02):
It was hard.
It was really hard to take itin.
And I didn't, to be honest.
I didn't grieve either one ofthem.
I wasn't able to go to eitherof their funerals.
I was still going through areally horrific divorce.
And dealing with the fact thatyou've got a hardcore disease
(38:24):
and you didn't know what theoutcome of that was going to be.
Exactly.
And then at the end of that, mygrandmother...
My grandmother died, and shehad raised me.
She was like a mother to me.
And she died, but I was therewith her when she died.
And when people say, like, anideal death, I just think of her
(38:47):
death.
It was just, like, kind ofperfect.
That's so good.
Yeah, and she was 100, and shewas at home, and she was
surrounded by family.
Like, family even flew in, andshe kind of just, like...
held on until everyone gotthere and we were all kind of
fawning over her and, you know,giving her love and saying nice
(39:08):
things about her.
And that's when she decided todie.
And it was, you know, shedidn't have a long illness.
It happened very fast.
It's like one of those, she was100.
She probably had a mini stroke.
She fell.
And then within a few days, shepassed.
So it was like very ideal.
That really does sound like avery perfect story.
Yeah, and I was just thinking,oh my God, if it could be like
(39:32):
this for everybody, you know,and then coming from like the
deaths of my two best friends,the juxtaposition of, yeah, it
made a huge impression on me.
All of it did.
And getting into the death workand doula work, I really had to
look at some of this stuff andit was very heartbreaking and
(39:53):
difficult, but also good becauseI hadn't really...
Lo Carmen (39:58):
You hadn't dealt with it?
Carré Kwong Callaway (40:00):
No, I hadn't dealt with it.
And my friend, my first friendwho killed himself, he was so...
And my other friend who I wrotethe music with, they were both
so impactful on my life becauseI met them when I was so young
and spent so much time with themof these very formative years
(40:24):
that...
You know, I got, it just mademe think about how no matter how
these people changed my life,like really made me who I am,
really had a great deal inmolding me into who I am and my
taste and the things I like andall the memories, like, and now
(40:45):
they're just gone.
And it's very weird to thinkabout how people who are like so
important and so profound, andI have that song with Will and I
also have Letters from my otherfriend, Blaine, and voicemails.
I still have tons of voicemailsfrom him.
Lo Carmen (41:01):
Oh, wow.
But he's gone.
But he's notthere.
Carré Kwong Callaway (41:05):
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (41:06):
Do you still feel them in ways?
Like, do you feel theirpresence ever, or you just feel
like they're gone?
Carré Kwong Callaway (41:14):
And same with my grandmother's presence.
I have not been able to feelthat.
And I've been open.
I mean, I've listened to all ofyour podcasts.
I know that you are an atheistas well.
And I think, is that me notbeing, am I too cynical or
skeptical or too much of anon-believer to be open to
(41:36):
feeling that?
feeling them but i've been veryopen
Lo Carmen (41:40):
I'm desperately curious like i would love to
have some kind of something somekind of spiritual connection or
to see something but it hasn'treally happened to me but i
certainly am open to that eventhough i don't believe in any
kind ofgod
Carré Kwong Callaway (42:00):
g yeah yeah no me too but the truth of
matter for me at least is that Ihaven't felt.
Lo Carmen (42:09):
I do believe that when you're gone, you're gone.
And honestly, you know, thisis, I'm right at the end of
making this podcast.
And I started work on it areally long time ago.
And at the time, I think I wasjust kind of, I was processing
all different kind of deaththoughts that I had been having
(42:29):
for various reasons.
But one of the things thatreally spurred me on was this
idea of becoming a record aftermy death like I just thought
that was super cool and I wasreally excited by that yeah and
now I'm at the point where Iactually don't care at all what
happens to me after I die.
I'm like don't wash me, don'tdress me up, don't do anything
(42:51):
to me just chuck me out, like,I'm gone.
yeah
I don't care, you know, you can think nice
thoughts about me and send memessages into the air but don't
worry about my body and i don'tknow if that's a good thing or
not but i feel quite at peacewiththat.
Carré Kwong Callaway (43:07):
I mean i think that's what matters is
what you you know is whateveryou feel at peace with is what
matters.
You know um it is weird, i Igot my ash , the ashes of my
friend, uh I mean, obviously hedied years ago, but I didn't go
to his funeral and there wasashes for me that another friend
(43:28):
of mine was keeping and I justgot them last month.
Lo Carmen (43:30):
Oh, wow.
Like what kind of amount?
Just a tiny amount?
Carré Kwong Callaway (43:33):
Just in a vial like this.
And it made me think, geez, youknow, I thought I wanted to be
cremated or, you know.
And then something about justseeing how it's just...
Dust, and of course, that'swhat, you know, it makes sense.
But yeah, my kind ofpreciousness about all of it has
(43:57):
changed too.
I now want to be likecomposted, basically.
Lo Carmen (44:01):
I would love to be composted.
But yeah.
I would love that.
It's not available inAustralia.
Carré Kwong Callaw (44:08):
Oh,isntit?
Lo Carmen (44:08):
It's not in the UK yet either,isit?
Carré Kwong Callaway (44:10):
i It is in the UK, yeah.
I mean, what it is, it's calleda natural burial here, and what
they do is they put you in acompostable...
coffin that is buried in thewoodlands three feet underground
so it's not cold enough foryour body to like six feet's too
cold for your body to decomposeso three feet you do naturally
decomposed and you're you haveto be wearing natural fibers and
(44:34):
you can't be embalmed etc etcand then you slowly decompose
into the ground and I find thatthat's, like, my number one
right now.
Lo Carmen (44:44):
Yeah, that's nice.
Carré Kwong Callaway (44:45):
And it's also cheaper than a traditional
burial.
But, yeah, it is weird, thewhole impermanence of, you know,
things that mean so much to us.
And I'm glad you brought upthat song I made with my friend
because I didn't think about itthat way.
Like, I...
Having a song, a piece of artmade with him that's going to
(45:06):
just keep living on forever, youknow...
Without him and eventuallywithout me, that's prettycool.
Lo Carmen (45:14):
Yeah, it is.
And that whole album you madewas kind of influenced by all of
that that was happening, isthat right?
Couples Only?
Carré Kwong Callaway (45:24):
Yeah, my last, I think it was my last LP,
Couples Only, it was a lotabout grief.
I mean, people kind ofsimplified it into a divorce
record, but I think it was justa record about endings.
Emotion?
Emotions.
(45:57):
It was one of those things Irecorded it in one take without
just messing around while theproducer was on a cigarette
break.
So the doors were open and thePro Tools was rolling and so I
recorded it and you could hearthe birds outside.
But it was just too emotionalfor me to keep going back and
doing more takes M Sometimes Ifind myself Still wanting to
(46:27):
feel how I felt When you held meclose After we found the dead
animal Under the house I wouldspend nights hoping for
(46:51):
earthquakes To shake you awakeJust so you could tell me I was
safe Funny when they said I wasdying I had suspicions you were
(47:20):
crying Only for yourself Funnyhow I pretended For so long that
(47:50):
You were somebody else Littlesquirrel Little squirrel
Sometimes I find myself Stillwanted to feel how I felt Back
when I pretended To believe inyour lies Little squirrel Yeah,
(48:29):
I think that record was a lot ofjust about endings, facing
mortality, grieving, justimpermanence in general, too.
Lo Carmen (48:39):
Yeah, it's a lot of stuff to churn through.
Carré Kwong Callaway (48:44):
A lot of loss.
And I find that what I'mwriting about now is even
more...
When I made that record, Ihadn't really processed my
friends' deaths.
And Substack has helped me dothat in a lot of ways.
And then doing the death doulatraining has helped me do that
as well.
And I think everything thatI...
(49:05):
All of my creative inspirationright now, it is around death
and dying.
Which is interesting.
I think we think of it as...
and I don't need to tell youthis, this is what your podcast
is, but it really islife-affirming.
I don't think this is dark orgoth or depressing.
Lo Carmen (49:28):
Me neither.
Carré Kwong Callaway (49:29):
Or scary.
I think it's only scary becausewe've made it scary.
And I'm terrified.
I have terrible death anxiety,you know?
I'm a control freak.
I don't like not knowing what'shappening.
Lo Carmen (49:44):
So how does your death anxiety manifest, just in
thinking about what's going tohappen?
Do you worry aboutit?
Carré Kwong Callaway (49:52):
Yeah, but I also have maybe a...
I think it's only around whenwe were talking about how we
started this conversation aroundbirthdays and New Year's.
It's like I start thinkingabout it and I'm like, but...
I have so much I still need todo.
How am I going to get it alldone?
And also just not knowingwhat's going to take me, how
(50:15):
it's going to be.
I don't like that.
That freaks me out.
But I can't decide.
You know there's those peoplewhere if they know they're going
to die, you hear about thesepeople, you're like, okay, I
knew I only have three months tolive, so I'm going to make sure
I live it to the fullest and godo this and this and this and
that.
And I don't want to be the kindof person where I find out I
(50:38):
have, you know, only so long tolive.
Like, oh, you have three monthsto live and just like spiral
out every day.
Just be like a sobbing,spiraling out myth.
Lo Carmen (50:47):
Yeah, like the pressure of, oh my God.
Carré Kwong Callaway (50:51):
I want to make the most out of it.
Lo Carmen (50:52):
I did read recently about the guy that, not to make
fun of anybody's death, but...
I'm kind of going to.
A bee flew into his mouth andhe said,
Carré Kwong Callaway (51:10):
Oh my gosh, the billionaire pool
player.
And he died.
Lo Carmen (51:15):
You could not dream that death up, could you?
And then I read about a manthat fell into a live volcano
and survived.
Carré Kwong Callaway (51:26):
What?
Lo Carmen (51:28):
It just doesn't make any sense, does it?
When your number's up, yournumber's up.
It could be the tiniest thingon earth that takes you out, and
you might have all the money inthe world, but it's not going
to save you.
It's just going to happen, andwe're never going to know when
(51:49):
it's going to happen, so we justhave to get good with it.
Carré Kwong Callaway (51:52):
Exactly.
We can't avoid it.
I mean, it is the greatequalizer.
I'm starting a new Sub stackjust based on this alone death
and dying and I haven't put outthe first post yet but I was
writing it yesterday and I wastalking about how it is the
besides birth it's the otherit's the one other experience we
all have to go through that weall have in common and in that
(52:16):
way it is a very equalizinghumbling experience but you know
they're used to that there's aLatin phrase memento mori which
is remember you must die and Ithink that's been kind of used
(52:37):
in with like a goth aestheticand everyone kind of sees this
it is like a goth kind of darkthing but this was a very you
know it's more about seizing theday that was about seizing the
day like and that no amount ofwealth or power or anything It's
(52:58):
going to save you from death.
We're all going to die.
You don't know when it's goingto be.
You have to die.
And so do what you need to do.
Live fully.
And I think that's a huge partof death work.
Maybe that's why I found it soenriching is it is really
life-affirming.
And it changed my life becauseit was a perspective shift.
And I think everyone, like mydeath anxiety has been, it's not
(53:23):
gone, but it's so much betternow.
And I think everybody wouldbenefit from talking about it
and learning more about it andnot avoiding
Lo Carmen (53:40):
Yeah, I just think in general we're also cautious
about having the deeper, hardconversations about the stuff
that scares us or that's ugly orterrifying.
Yeah.
We all kind of want to bepolite and, you know, not go
down dark holes.
(54:01):
But I think perhaps just byreflecting on that stuff, those
dark holes get a little lighter.
Carré Kwong Callaway (54:11):
Yeah, I mean, that's a great way of
putting it.
I also, I think the morecommon, like the more we talk
about it and the more common itis as a, subject matter or a
topic of conversation, thebetter.
But of course now every...
Every party I go to and everynew person I
Lo Carmen (54:41):
meet, I just try to talk to them about death and
dying.
conversations and people werekind of going, oh yeah, right, I
(55:04):
should write a will.
I haven't ever thought aboutthat and I'm really freaked out
about death, but I guess Ibetter think about it.
I feel like a lot of people inmy kind of circle of friends all
actually did something, likeall wrote a will or
Carré Kwong Callaway (55:24):
Wow, good for you for making that
happen.
Lo Carmen (55:27):
Yeah, I feel like I should get a little gold star
for that.
Carré Kwong Callaway (55:29):
But that is so important.
You should.
It is so important.
And honestly, that's thebiggest gift somebody could give
their loved ones and families,especially if they have kids or
whatever, because it tearsfamilies apart.
Lo Carmen (55:44):
Oh, it does.
It's crazy.
That's what I've seen a lot of,I guess, is just gone...
heard a lot of stories offamilies yeah you know people
that were close just thoserelationships going to hell
after death all because thingsweren't dealt with when the
dying person was alive yeah itjust seemed like such a simple
(56:07):
thing that hadn't been done yeahexactly and i think also When
we were living in LA, we had areally lovely neighbor, a Jewish
man who was volunteering athospice a few times a week and
he would get home really late atnight while we were sitting up
carousing in the garage havingglasses of wine and he'd kind of
(56:30):
come in to decompress and justend up telling us these amazing
conversations that he'd beenhaving with these people that
perhaps didn't have any familymembers.
around so he would just go andsit with them he'd be like is
there anything on your mindanything you want to talk about
any messages you'd like me toget out to people anything you'd
(56:52):
like to reflect on you knowwhat was the best day you had he
was an incredibly beautifulpositive person and every night
it was just this really movingexperience just to hear about
what he had been doing.
And I think that was kind ofhis gift to us to make us
(57:14):
reflect on death.
Carré Kwong Callaway (57:19):
I also think that people who like this,
like your neighbor, like himand myself, we all seem to have
this kind of buzz where we wantto share it and talk about it.
And I think that says a lot.
Like it's a very...
It almost feels like everyonein my death doula training were
on a group chat.
And we've all felt this very,it wasn't like unique to me
(57:42):
where I felt this waslife-changing or so inspiring or
profound or enriching.
Everyone feels that way.
And I know people who volunteerin hospice and have these kind
of experiences, it's the samething.
And so you want to go and liketalk about it and share it with
people.
And I think that says a lot,you know.
Lo Carmen (58:00):
Just letting the light in.
Carré Kwong Callaway (58:03):
Yeah, yeah, really.
And it's only made me calmerand more at ease and definitely
more reflective.
And I've definitely changed asa person for the better because
(58:24):
of it.
But I haven't been thisinspired and rewarded by
something and maybe forever.
Lo Carmen (58:34):
Wow, that's really exciting.
And I can't wait to hear howthat kind of ends up weaving its
way into your music and yourwriting aswell.
Carré Kwong Callaway (58:44):
w Yeah, I am really curious about that.
And also, I just, I think, Iknow that I, you know, I worried
at first when I was, especiallywhen I was doing all the
training with all the otherpeople who were mostly nurses,
they all had that, like, veryalmost calming maternal vibes.
(59:06):
And I was like, oh no, Idon't...
I'm not going to be good atthis because who wants an
anxious, spiraling out deathdoula?
But I really trusted in theprocess of the training and
gradually it's really changedme.
I'm definitely...
(59:26):
still who I am and I'm not thekind of death tool.
If you want to be like, ifsomebody wants to be coddled and
told like euphemisms andwhatever, that's not me.
However, I think I provide amuchneeded...
Lo Carmen (59:41):
n You've got a beautiful calm vibe.
Carré Kwong Callaway (59:44):
Oh, thank you.
Lo Carmen (59:44):
I think you will be incredible.
I think you'll
Carré Kwong Callaway (59:50):
We'll see.
I can't be like, leave reviews.
Lo Carmen (59:55):
(laughter) Oh my God, that's so funny.
Carré Kwong Callaway (01:00:00):
Like client testimonials.
Yeah, yeah.
Five stars, guys.
Fivestars
The night I spoke to Carre, Idreamt she recorded a noise
(01:00:29):
album called Seize the Day,Motherfuckers, and I can't help
hoping that dream comes true.
But what I am learning to bedefinitively true on this
remarkable little death trip I'mon is that we all have more
power than we realize totransform the way we look at
living and dying.
And as Funkadelic already toldus long ago, The kingdom of
(01:00:54):
heaven is within.
Thanks so much to Carré KwongCalloway, a.k.a.
Queen Kwong, for going deepwith me here and for permission
to play her music.
You can find Queen Kwongwherever you listen to music and
you can subscribe to both ofher newsletters at
queenkwong.substack.com andDiary of a Death
(01:01:20):
Doubler.substack.com Whileyou're there, you can find me at
lowcarmen.substack.com and comejoin the conversation.
All music on this episode usedwith permission You heard, I
found a reason from QueenKwong's Strangers EP.
(01:01:40):
Stanley RIP from Queen Kwong'salbum Couples Only.
And don't forget this feeling,which was a never released
teenage bedroom demo.
More details on all of thismusic available on the show
notes.
The Death Is Not The End themewas composed, recorded and
(01:02:04):
performed by Peter Head.
The Death Is Not The End stingwas written by Bob Dylan,
recorded and performed by PeterHead.
Tracks used with permissionfrom Epidemic Sound were
provided by Velvet Head, J.F.
Gloss, Taylor Crane, MarinClem, They Dream By Day, Roots
(01:02:24):
and Recognitions, Silver Mapleand River Foxcroft.
And all the details of them canalso be found at the show
notes.
The repertoire on thisrecording was licensed by APRA
AMCOS.
The artwork used on thispodcast was created by Craig
Vidal.
Death Is Not The End iscreated, written, recorded,
(01:02:44):
edited and hosted by me, LoCarmen.
I hope you'll join me next timefor the very last episode in
Season 1 of Death Is Not TheEnd.
And see you on the other side.
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