June 14, 2025 • 54 mins
In this episode, Lo Carmen ponders connections between music and death and converses with drummer Jim White (The Hard Quartet/Xylouris White/Dirty Three/Marisa Anderson/Bill Callahan and many more) about dead friends, seeing things, his new solo record, Dirty Three and his father's 'good death'.
We also hear from film director Ray Argall and about amazing musical exits from family friends Jane Skinner and Andrew Galpin.
Listen to Jim's solo album All Hits: Memories here: https://lnk.to/allhits
For more about Jim White: https://www.jimwhitedrums.com/
Music in this episode used with permission, with thanks and gratitude to:
Jim White and Drag City for All Hits: Memories.
The estate of Rachael Coutts for 'I Am Dreaming Of You' written & performed by Rachael Coutts.
Peter Head for 'Round & Round & Round' and 'Carey Gully' featuring Bon Scott.
Emma Swift and Tiny Ghost Records for permission to use 'Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands' from her album Blonde On The Tracks.
Jimmy Dillon and band for their live in Hawaii version of 'Gimme Shelter', featuring Lisa Fischer.
'Gauloises Blue' from the album It Walks Like Love by Loene Carmen
'Sue's Last Ride' by the Dirty Three was a live recording by Lo Carmen from Beck's Festival Bar, Sydney Australia, 2002.
Original theme music written, performed & recorded by Peter Head, as well as versions of 'Take Me To Church' and 'Its A Wonderful World'.
Incidental music thanks to the Mobygratis Music Library, Descript Music Library & Pixabay.
Répertoire licensed by APRA AMCOS.
Written & recorded by Lo Carmen
Editing & sound design by Aden Young and Lo Carmen
Additional track mixing by David Akerman
Thank you to Craig Waddell for permission to feature his artwork '. Surrounded By Your Beauty' for 'Death Is Not The End'. See more of his work here.
©Black Tambourine Productions 2025
Visit Lo Carmen's Loose Connections here: https://locarmen.substack.com/
Follow host Lo Carmen here:
https://www.instagram.com/locarmenmusic/
https://www.facebook.com/locarmenmusic
https://www.threads.net/@locarmenmusic
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lo Carmen (00:00):
Despite their very best efforts, the scientific
community has concluded thattime travel is just not
possible, and time can only movein one direction.
(00:23):
Irreversible phenomena.
You can't unsmash a plate...
or uncook an egg.
You can't un-die.
But there are many things thatseem to exist outside the realms
of the realistic or thepossible.
Things that just happen.
(00:44):
And music is often the catalystor the bridge that connects us
with these liminal spaces thatstretch or violate the laws of
what we know to be true.
Music appears to have theability to reconnect us with
moments from our past, andsometimes with people.
Music can act as a direct lineto our old selves, whether it's
(01:08):
a melody, a note, a rhythm, apattern, or a lyric that
transports us.
When our minds are free towander, which occurs when we're
doing something that keeps usbusy, repetitive tasks that
don't take up a lot of mentalspace, like...
washing dishes or walking,we're more likely to experience
(01:29):
involuntary memories.
Often when we find ourselveslost in a memory, we're not even
sure what that trigger was.
Rather than replaying scenes inchronological order, memories
are retrieved as littledisconnected snapshots.
The brain stores memories inthe hippocampus, A small, slimy,
(01:49):
seahorse-shaped filing cabinet,no bigger than five centimetres
long, that records, stores andtags our feelings, sensations
and perceptions as they occur,encoding sensory details
together that then serve as cuesthat trigger memories.
Music awakens and stimulatesmental pathways that nothing
(02:12):
else can touch, and thatsometimes can't be explained,
There appears to be an avalancheof strange connections.
We're going to get deeper intothis and let our minds wander
through memory, philosophy, oddconnections, music, and dying.
In this episode, I'm talkingwith drummer Jim White, as well
(02:38):
as being one of the mostthrilling multi-dimensional and
prolific musicians in the worldtoday.
He's an old friend of mine andone of my favorite people to
talk to.
When we meet up, Jim's in themiddle of a tour.
It's the morning after he'splayed the night before and
he'll be playing again thatevening.
(03:00):
This is where you can find Jimmost of the time, in this
transitory space between movingon getting ready and creating
the music that will take hisaudience places that they
perhaps didn't expect to go.
Maybe accidental timetravelling.
Jim tends to play music thatstirs strong emotions in people.
(03:22):
I'm going to drop you into aconversation where Jim and I are
talking about whether he shouldmention this kind of surreal
experience that he had a longtime ago while he was performing
with his band, The Dirty Three,As he does the press for his
new solo album, All HitsMemories, because the first
single of this album, Names Makethe Name, was partly inspired
(03:46):
by this experience.
You might hear George, Jim'sbandmate in the background on
the phone and trucks passing andbirds twittering.
That's just the reality ofwhere we were.
Jim White (04:00):
I mean, I find it interesting.
Lo Carmen (04:04):
Do you want a donut?
Jim White (04:05):
No.
There I am, like...
I've just never said anythingto anyone for 30, 40 years.
Lo Carmen (04:12):
Yeah
Jim White (04:12):
You know, really like, like really deliberate,
like, you know.
Lo Carmen (04:15):
Yeah.
Jim White (04:15):
You know, yeah, you know what Imean?
I do.
Like, especially publicly.
I mean, I can talk, I know Ican talk better personally now
too than I used to, but evenpublicly, like, and then all of
a sudden I'm like talking aboutdead people, like, you know,
talking about, what am I tryingto say?
Lo Carmen (04:31):
So Jim mentioned in this newspaper interview that he
had a dead friend.
He used to appear in front ofhim on stage when he'd play a
certain song.
He just kind of casuallydropped this into the
conversation and then they moveon to other topics.
But I couldn't stop thinkingabout it.
So that's one of the reasonsthat I reached out to Jim to see
(04:56):
if he'd talk with me for thisepisode.
Jim White (04:58):
Oh, yeah, and I said it, yeah, and I never told
anyone.
And I was like, I fell underpressure to say something in
this interview.
Oh, no.
And I said, I've never toldanyone before.
Lo Carmen (05:06):
And then suddenly you've told the world.
Jim White (05:08):
And then I said it, and then, yeah, and then I'm
sort of surprised because, youknow, you were like, what's
going on with that?
And then some people came up tome and were like, you know, I
didn't know anyone who read thepaper anymore.
Anyway, well, the story is, I'mtelling you the story.
This friend of mine died.
And then...
Well, he used to play thissong.
Lo Carmen (05:34):
Did the song have anything to do with your friend?
Jim White (05:37):
No.
And she disappeared in front ofthe drums, you know.
Kind of just in the air alittle bit.
I don't think it was.
(05:59):
I don't know where she wasexactly.
She was just there.
Kind of, you know, not always,but quite often.
Lo Carmen (06:07):
Like facing you?
Jim White (06:09):
Yeah, facing me.
Yeah.
You know, not...
Not weird.
Not bad or anything.
Not weird.
No, not weird at all.
Just like kind of...
But, you know, it was sad.
You know, I used to feel sadsometimes.
because it felt emotional, butnot that bad or anything.
You know, and then, like, evenmy bandmates, you know, Warren
(06:31):
and Mika, who I'm very closewith and everything, I never
told them.
I never mentioned anybody.
Lo Carmen (06:35):
So did you make a decision not to talk about it,
or did it just feel private?
It
Jim White (06:40):
just felt private.
You know, it made me feel likeI didn't need anyone's opinion
on it.
I didn't want anyone's opinionon it.
I'd rather just have it.
And then, you know, it justcame...
You know, and I always forget.
It's kind of you always forget.
And then it's like, oh, youknow.
And kind of, you know, youfeel, you know, music's
emotional anyway.
And, you know.
And then after a while Istarted wondering whether I was
(07:02):
kind of milking it.
You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
And then after that it justkind of dissipated.
It came less often, I don'tthink, than some point.
Do you feel like you made akind of mental decision to not–
Let it No, I think I made amental decision not to hang on
(07:23):
to it.
Don't ask me how that works.
Lo Carmen (07:26):
Yeah, right.
Just a mysterious happening.
Jim White (07:31):
I'd be hard-pressed to say how long it was for,
whether it was for months ormaybe a few months or something.
I'm not really sure.
Lo Carmen (07:45):
If any music was going to conjure...
someone, I can imagine would beDirty Three Music.
Jim White (07:52):
Yeah, but once again, I mean, I don't think she was,
you know, I don't think she wasreally there or anything.
Lo Carmen (07:57):
Yeah.
Jim White (07:58):
You know?
Yeah.
But, you know.
Lo Carmen (07:59):
Now, like I said, the Dirty Three do play very
moving, powerful music that canexcite very intense responses
from their audiences.
Just to give a taster of thejourney that one of their songs
might take you on to those thatare unfamiliar...
I've spliced together a coupleof sections from a live
(08:20):
performance of a beloved11-minute Dirty Three song
called Sue's Last Ride.
I do think that there's somekind of weird spatial
(08:53):
connections that go on.
I
Jim White (08:55):
don't know about, like I say, I don't have any,
you know, I don't have, like I'msaying all the things, like,
you know, things appearing and,you know, I don't actually have
any relationship to that stuff.
Lo Carmen (09:04):
No, I've never heard you talk like that in, what, 30
years of friendship.
Jim White (09:09):
Yeah, I don't have any interest in, you know,
You're not a conspiracy UFO guy?
No.
Music is like, you know...
Lo Carmen (09:20):
Music somehow connects people to strange
things that are impossible toexplain.
Jim White (09:28):
Well, I mean, it activates some part of the brain
and, you know, feelings andstuff.
But, yeah, I really don't haveany...
I mean, you know...
Yeah, I don't express anyinterest in...
Lo Carmen (09:43):
Spooky shit.
Jim White (09:47):
I don't have any... I just don't feel like that, you
know.
I don't believe in anythinglike that.
Lo Carmen (10:03):
Stravinsky said, if music appears to express
something...
This is only an illusion andnot a reality.
Brahms described the act ofcomposing music as putting him
in a semi-trance-like state,saying, I immediately feel
vibrations that thrill my wholebeing.
(10:24):
These are the spiritilluminating the soul power
within, and in this exaltedstate, I see clearly what is
obscure in my ordinary moods.
Beethoven, Puccini, Wagner andStrauss also all described
(10:54):
variations on enteringtrance-like states through
music.
Beethoven told an interviewerthat music is the one
incorporated entrance into thehigher worlds of knowledge which
comprehends mankind, but whichmankind cannot comprehend.
Sufis believe that music helpsto free the physical effort from
(11:25):
conscious thought, since bothmind and will must be suspended
if ecstasy is to be attained.
This is where the concept ofthe whirling dervish comes from.
(11:57):
The mystical teachings ofHazrat Inayat Khan state, Some
would say the same descriptioncould easily be applied to music
(12:19):
made by the Dirty Three.
Drums and chants are used byold Sufi masters to lead
devotees towards thismusic-associated trance state
where they describe losing allsense of this reality and
leaving their bodies.
Dervishes are able to inflictsevere injuries upon themselves,
(12:50):
supposedly without pain orbleeding, then heal the wounds
within seconds without leaving ascar.
Joe Nicol, a senior researchfellow for the Committee for
Skeptical Inquiry, anorganisation that promotes
(13:10):
scientific and criticalinvestigation of paranormal and
other extraordinary claims, saysthat he's investigated claims
of ghosts, haunted houses,vampires, werewolves, exorcisms,
sea monsters and other unusualpsychic phenomenon for over 40
years now and has still neverfound a paranormal
(13:33):
justification.
According to Nicholl, it'spossible that seeing a ghost or
experiencing waking dreams mightbe an illusion produced by the
brain when there's a disconnectbetween mind and body.
because a person is tired, orin a state of near reverie or
daydream, or performing mindlessrepetitive tasks.
(13:55):
These all make us moresusceptible to these visions.
Physiological conditions suchas sleep paralysis or hypnagogic
hallucinations, which arethings you might see when you're
falling asleep, or hypnopompichallucinations, which are things
(14:15):
that you might see when you'retrying to wake up, can also
prompt these visions or deeplymeditative trance-like states,
which are known for producingvivid, meaningful feeling
visions, often involving thosewho have died.
It's not hard to imagine thatJim or someone could
(14:39):
unintentionally put himself in akind of trance through intense
drumming.
That could be an explanationfor how he saw his friend The
(15:04):
Nagoma Voodoo Healers inTanzania Use music to manifest
(15:25):
spirits.
Drums and rhythmic percussion,particularly played by the ones
seeking to enter the trancestate, are at the heart of
shamanic practices across theworld, from Korea to Venezuela,
Siberia to the Celtics, wherethe rituals involve losing
oneself and connecting withspirits through the paranormal
(15:45):
power of music.
Watching Jim play drums as anaudience member has sometimes
put me in a kind of otherworldlytrance-like state, and I know
I'm not alone in that.
I've also experienced kind oftransformative states while
performing my own music onstage, where I feel like I'm
(16:06):
both there and not there.
my playing and singing becomeeffortless.
I'm literally lost in music,like I'm in a waking dream with
no beginning or end. I'vewritten songs that mentally
(16:33):
conjure up a person who's died.
I can sometimes feel the warmthor the presence of that person
there with me as I perform thesong.
I've never experienced seeingthem on stage, but the sensation
of feeling them there with meis an odd, nice, briefly
mystical kind of feeling.
The stage can be its ownworld. Jim's experiences of
(17:16):
seeing his friend appear infront of him on stage, other
strange connections to hercontinued to evolve in his life,
like other women with the samename as her and sometimes linked
with her in other ways thatkept turning up and becoming
important people in his life.
It felt like a slightly uncannythread.
Jim White (17:39):
So I wrote this thing, I wrote it yesterday.
I've got this record comingout, and the first song is
called That.
Names make the names.
Names make the name.
And so they asked me to writesomething about it, so I wrote
that.
That's what it's about.
Lo Carmen (17:57):
Wow, that's beautiful.
Jim White (17:59):
But I didn't put the part about the...
I left out the part about hercoming on the stage.
Lo Carmen (18:04):
You should put that in, because that's...
Jim White (18:06):
That takes it into the...
Lo Carmen (18:07):
You feel like it's too...
that people will thinkyou're...crazy
Jim White (18:13):
you know, the main reason I'm writing it is because
I want to make, when I do pressfor the record, I want the
conversation to be moreinteresting than, like, where
did you record?
Lo Carmen (18:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jim White (18:24):
You know, so I can always leave it.
I can always add it in then.
Lo Carmen (18:27):
Have you had...
Jim White (18:28):
Isn't that weird, though?
Lo Carmen (18:29):
It's really weird.
Jim White (18:30):
And then you said, do you want to dothisthing...
Lo Carmen (18:31):
Yeah.
But, I mean, like what we weresaying before about how
everything's kind of...
connected in weird ways that wecan't quite understand
Jim White (18:39):
it's not that weird , not that i'm not that okay i'm
not that comfortable with idon't know if i agree with that
like the weird ways we can'tjust like i mean i'm saying yes
i don't understand it but thebrain is for making patterns you
know so there's patterns youknow so this record's kind of
this record's called like allhits memories and because it's
like you know it's like why doyou remember one thing and not
(19:01):
the other thing because it's ahit so a hit on the brain
somehow it wasn't a hit itwouldn't be a memory and if it
wasn't memory it wouldn't
Lo Carmen (19:11):
That's quite weird because i just learned about
that - that's how you makememories - to be a memory it has
to make quite an impressionit's like you take a kind of 360
snapshot you need like a tomake a memory you know maybe a
sound oh that's kind of acombination of of things i think
that's right and
Jim White (19:29):
Also every time you remember it you take it out and
then you put it back in again, sit changes.
Lo Carmen (19:35):
Yes, and you actually take away a little bit.
Jim White (19:38):
I don't have any like spiritual or religious
framework at all, you know.
So, you know, the brain is likea pattern recognition machine,
you know what I mean?
I don't know why we rememberthat but not that, you know.
Anyway, so yeah.
Lo Carmen (19:51):
So is it a solo drum record or do you play other
things as well?
Jim White (19:55):
Yeah, it's got keyboards on as well, which I
play.
Not that I can play them, but Ican.
I just did the drums, I wantedthe drums to have, I just wanted
to have like a friend.
A friend?
Lo Carmen (20:14):
You were worried about your drums being lonely.
Jim White (20:17):
I wanted the drums to have a note or something, you
know, and then I did the note,but then, you know, it was too
much fun, so I did a couple, dida few notes.
Lo Carmen (20:23):
Yeah, that sounds great.
Jim White (20:24):
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (20:27):
Jim and I both emerged at different times from
a kind of underground Australianmusic scene.
where a rather heartbreakingnumber of its pioneers and
supporters are no longer withus.
I could easily name 20 friendsand musical peers and heroes
that we both knew and loved thathave died via illness, accident
(20:48):
or misadventure.
And I have no doubt Jim has abunch of other friends from his
travels around the world thathave died too young also.
Now I'm not sure if musicpeople seem to die at a higher
rate than other professions.
But sometimes it feels like it.
The first death I everexperienced was my musician
(21:10):
dad's best friend, Bon Scott,who you may know from ACDC, but
my dad and Bon made a differentkind of countrified rock and
roll together. I still rememberanswering the phone as a little
(21:39):
kid and it was our friend inLondon informing us that he'd
died before it hit the news.
We got a message to my dad whowas performing in a piano bar in
the Northern Territory when thenews came in and he was too
upset to keep playing.
Peter says the whole barfollowed by the whole town.
(22:09):
joined him in sorrow, and theyall headed down to the riverbed
and had a wild wake lying aroundin the creek.
A fairly fitting, impromptusend-off.
Bon's death hit the Adelaiderock and roll community very
hard.
He was everybody's friend,beloved, and I think probably
(22:34):
one of the very first people inthat friend group to die.
It also hit me really hard,even though I was only nine or
ten years old, because Bon wasvery funny and lovely and had
told me that he'd seen our dogHarry's ghost in the driveway
and that Harry looked reallyhappy, which made me really
(22:55):
happy.
I tried to have a séance withmy friends next door to
communicate with him, but itdidn't work.
And my mum let me stay homefrom school for...
What seemed like a couple ofweeks but was probably a couple
of days.
Anyway, we all still miss him,along with the rest of the
(23:17):
world.
I don't have a whole lot ofphotos from the 1990s, but I've
brought along a picture to showJim of a group of us from then,
(23:40):
where two of our friends in thephoto have since died.
Zanzibar.
Jim White (23:45):
Oh, Zanzibar.
Lo Carmen (23:46):
Yeah.
Jim White (23:47):
Damien.
Lo Carmen (23:47):
Damien.
Jim White (23:48):
You.
Lo Carmen (23:49):
And me and Wazza.
Jim White (23:50):
James.
That's you, right?
Oh, Warren.
Look at Warren.
Lo Carmen (23:53):
I know.
He has no beard.
Jim White (23:55):
James.
Lo Carmen (23:56):
Angela.
That was James' girlfriend.
Mick Turner.
And Monica.
Jim White (24:01):
Oh, look at Monica.
Yeah.
Where am I?
Lo Carmen (24:04):
Maybe you took the picture!
Jim White (24:05):
We used to always go there after the show, didn't we?
Lo Carmen (24:07):
Yeah.
I used to do gigs there everyTuesday night.
Jim White (24:10):
That was that one on the little side street?
Lo Carmen (24:12):
Yeah.
Jim White (24:12):
In the King's Cross?
Lo Carmen (24:13):
Yeah.
Jim White (24:14):
It was that awful time in Melbourne when there
were so many people dying aroundthat when we were in our 30s, I
guess.
Lo Carmen (24:20):
Yeah, it did feel like a period where there were
lots of people dying.
Yeah, Norm.
Jim White (24:25):
Andrew Entsch.
Lo Carmen (24:25):
I don't know if it's musicians...
if musicians seem to have morefriends that die...
Jim White (24:36):
I feel like people I know...
I...
Lo Carmen (24:38):
I feel like I've got so many dead friends.
Jim White (24:39):
I feel like when they...
If I get to know someone andthen, like, you know, over time,
just in passing you say, oh,blah, blah, blah, and then
they're dead or whatever, I feellike a friend of mine a few
years ago was like, what are youtalking about?
Like, how can you know so manydead people, you know?
But, I mean, I guess...
It's a pretty social life,being a musician, so to know a
(25:01):
lot of
Lo Carmen (25:02):
Yes, that's true.
Jim White (25:04):
From what I've seen, it seems like a high mortality,
you know,
Lo Carmen (25:11):
Yeah.
I guess there's a lot of peoplethat have, you know, lived
pretty hard, et cetera.
When you lose friends, do yousometimes want to listen to a
song after you've heard thatthey've died that will bring
them back to you in a song?
Jim White (25:26):
No.
Lo Carmen (25:26):
No.
So what's...
Jim White (25:30):
Like what do you mean?
What do youdo?
Lo Carmen (25:32):
y d What do I do?
Jim White (25:33):
Yeah,
Lo Carmen (25:33):
I would probably listen to a song, like if
there's a song that's connectedwith that person.
But like what you were sayingbefore about how as musicians
you tend to have a really, youknow, a wide community of people
that you know, maybe a widercommunity than a lot of people
because you travel
Jim White (25:53):
You and me are pretty sociable.
Lo Carmen (25:55):
Pretty sociable.
I don't really get upset nowwhen I hear that somebody's
died.
I just kind of go, I'll seethem on the other side if
there's such a thing.
Jim White (26:06):
You don't feel upset anymore?
Lo Carmen (26:07):
No.
I don't.Idon't feel likethere's much difference between
them being dead or alive.
Jim White (26:14):
Yeah, that's really...
Lo Carmen (26:15):
I don't know what to make of that, but that is how I
feel.
Jim White (26:21):
Yeah.
I mean, do you remember how...
Do you remember how I used totear you apart?
Lo Carmen (26:25):
Yeah, I do.
Jim White (26:26):
Yeah. Like you'd hear of someone that you didn't even
know that well dying and itwould...
Sometimes it would just get you,right?
...plunge you into a terribledepression and...
Yes, I used to get so upset.
...so shocking.
But, you know, I've beentrying...
I've got this thing, like thismetaphor that I only find people
like where I'm like, you know,when you drop your phone, it's
going to smash on the ground,right?
(26:47):
I try to be over it by the timeit's about there.
You know, it's like it'sabout...
six inches out of your hand.
If you can't catch it, and Itry to be over it, it's like,
whatever, you know, it'ssmashed.
Yeah.
You know, I don't know if it issmashed or not, you know.
I don't know, I'm not sayingdead people are the same as
my phone...
Lo Carmen (27:03):
But maybe it's an ability to understand that the
world doesn't end as you getolder.
Jim White (27:09):
But also that, you know, you getting all torn up
about it does not help you orthem or anyone.
No.
And the kind of...
Lo Carmen (27:17):
I don't think getting torn up about anything helps
anything.
Jim White (27:20):
As we older, like, you know, the time's more
limited.
Lo Carmen (27:22):
Yes, y this is a weird question, but do you keep
all your dead friends in yourphone?
Jim White (27:29):
I certainly don't delete them.
Lo Carmen (27:31):
No.
I just often find, like I'mgoing through to find something
in a hurry and I suddenly go,jeez, so many dead friends in my
phone.
Jim White (27:40):
What about Shane?
Was Shane in there?
Lo Carmen (27:42):
Yeah, Shane would be in my phone.
Messages.
I miss Shane too.
He was such a cheeky bugger.
... As I grow older, I feellike I'm able to process death
and dying in a morephilosophical way perhaps than
when I was younger.
I'm more understanding thatdeath is a part of life and that
(28:04):
none of us have promised anyparticular length of time to
exist.
So although it feels reallyhard to bear and unfair when
someone we love diesunexpectedly or younger than
we'd hope, the outcome wasalways going to be the same.
The circle of life is real.
I'm just getting to that agewhere I have a lot of dead
(28:25):
friends and I've found my ownways to keep them alive in my
heart.
I was still ruminating overthis when our friend Ray came
over.
He's in his mid-60s, so he'sgot a little bit more experience
in losing people, and I askedhim how he deals with it.
Ray Argall (28:44):
It's organic in the way those things evolve and
happen.
I was thinking earlier, like,if I think of my grandmother, or
I think of Anna Kanata, theperson we absolutely adored.
Esben Storm, Sarah Watt, peoplethat I've known quite well.
You know, that's what I mean.
There's times when they're justright there.
(29:05):
That's what I say.
I can nearly touch them.
You know, I can see them.
I can feel them.
I can hear them.
You can miss people, but youwish you could have a
conversation with them, butyou're not sad about it because
you know that there's a part ofyou that's not a practical
reality.
Yeah.
That's not going to happen.
Lo Carmen (29:23):
Life and death is just death.
Ray Argall (29:25):
Thank goodness that they are there in a way, you
know.
Lo Carmen (29:28):
You just enjoy the fact that they existed and what
they brought to your life.
Ray Argall (29:33):
But when you're thinking of that person, that's
not all you're thinking of.
In actual fact, you're...
You know, the memories or thosefeelings that come back are
often completely unique.
You're not consciously tryingto bring that up, that era of
that person.
And sometimes it's past, butit's...
(29:54):
You know, you can rememberthings they've said or their
laugh or whatever.
And it's sort of relative towhere you're at at that time.
Because if you can't remember,if you've sort of forgotten, if
you're looking at a photo and...
That's all there is.
That's, you know, the photoshelp remind you.
(30:14):
And yeah, because we have somuch video and film and I think
it's a real comfort because youhaven't lost them completely.
Jim White (30:47):
My dad just died this year and he got cremated.
Lo Carmen (30:53):
Is that what he wanted?
Did you discuss it with him?
Jim White (30:56):
Yeah, that's what he wanted.
Certainly sometime in my life,in my sister's life, he used to,
you know, they used to talkabout that, our parents.
There was a piece of paper thatsaid, you know, you know,
resuscitate and stuff like thatabout quality of life.
There was some confusionbecause he had dementia.
He said some contradictorythings about where he wanted to
end up, but we kind of...
(31:17):
Actually, he's just on theshelf right now.
Lo Carmen (31:19):
What's he in?
I
Jim White (31:20):
I don't know.
My sister showed it the otherday, but it had a cover over it.
I didn't even look under.
Lo Carmen (31:24):
So like a nice urn or box or something?
Jim White (31:27):
Yeah.
It was pretty big.
Lo Carmen (31:28):
Yeah, it's surprising.
Jim White (31:30):
Two foot by one foot or something.
Lo Carmen (31:31):
And do you have any plans?
Jim White (31:32):
She said it was quite heavy when she was carrying it.
I forgot to touch it.
But he had a...
He had something about, youknow, quality of life, the
resuscitation and stuff.
You know, he mentioned that itsaid on it that he wanted music
played.
There was actually part of theform that said, you know, like
(31:53):
about is he dying, I guess.
I can't remember exactly whatit said, but, you know, he wrote
classical music and Bob Dylan.
So I was actually, you know,when he went into this decline,
the final decline, I was...
interstate and and my sisterswere like my time to come down
(32:13):
if you're going to do it i wason tour playing music so you
know we got up in the middle ofnight and we drove you know the
people i was working withdriving to the airport and got
the plane and then got rented acar and drove up to the country
and you know they were like yeahhe's he's a fine you know he's
stable don't don't speed oranything and then when i got to
the hospital i texted my sisterand she's like oh yeah you know
(32:36):
I'll come and get you becauseit's kind of hard to find I went
to the car park and she came tothe car park we were just
chatting away there was nopressure there was no pressure
or anything and then my othersister texted and said come now
so we went there and he'd beentold that I was coming and I
guess he'd also heard that I wasthere and she'd come out to get
me from the car park and anywayhis breathing had changed and
(32:56):
something was going into I meanI sort of imagined it was like
you know when you're bustingdown the toilet but you get
really close you know and thenyou're like really busting maybe
yeah um so you know so i gotthere and he was and he was
Lo Carmen (33:11):
it was like he'd been waiting for you
Jim White (33:13):
He'd been waiting you know yeah because I was, his
three kids, he was waiting forthe, i was the final one and i
got there you know and then thenurse came in and said you know
do you want to give him morphineor something now whatever and
we're like no i just got hereyou know like because that tip
like that will knock him outyeah she goes yeah probably like
take him out you know so no nono no Let's hang out, you know.
(33:34):
So, you know, and he was, hecouldn't really talk because
there was some stuff that wasgoing on in his mouth.
It was all kind of, had somedried up sort of stuff in it.
But he could talk a little bit.
It was sort of croaky, but, youknow, I'm really not sure.
But it was really nice.
Yeah.
We just hung out.
And my sister, my older sister,she had some music on and
(33:57):
classical music.
and we're hanging out.
After being there about like 20minutes or something, you know,
my oldest sister put on, sheput on Bob Dylan, like she went,
and she put on like 'Sad EyedLadies of the Lowlands'. And you
(34:23):
know, the whole room justchanged and it's like, and my
little sister, ran into thebathroom for privacy and then if
something was going on, I'dcome back, you know.
And then, the whole, and then,honestly, it was about like
three, not even three, you know,it's a long song.
So hardly, just a couple, twoor three minutes in and he
(34:51):
went...
Lo Carmen (34:51):
Oh my god
Jim White (34:52):
Yeah.
And, um,
Lo Carmen (34:54):
That's incredible.
Jim White (34:55):
It was beautiful.
You know, it was beautiful.
And he used to play, like, youknow, and Anna, she just put it
on.
She didn't say, hey, I'mthinking about putting this on.
She just put it on, you
Lo Carmen (35:02):
Yeah.
Jim White (35:03):
And...
Lo Carmen (35:03):
She was just in tune.
Jim White (35:06):
Yeah.
And then it took him out.
And then he had the...
It was like, oh, he's gone, youknow.
But then he had the littlething with oxygen going in the
nostril, so...
Because he was trying to see ifhe was, you know, you see.
Yeah, if he was gone.
But, you know, we i just hungout with him.
you know, realised hedefinitely was gone.
And, you know, everyone says,like, that it's once the spirit
(35:31):
leaves or whatever it is, youknow.
But it wasn't like that at all.
It was just like Dad.
Lo Carmen (35:36):
He didn't look any different.
Jim White (35:38):
We just hung out.
Like, you know, still justtouching him and kissing him and
patting him and stuff.
And then, you know, the womancame in, the nurse came in and
said, yeah, and then left again,just left us there.
It was like, you know, it waslike in the late afternoon in
this country town, countryhospital.
It still felt like him.
I took photos.
I took a bunch of photos.
Lo Carmen (35:59):
Really?
And
Jim White (35:59):
when I look at him, he looks like...
Lo Carmen (36:02):
It still looks like him or it looks like he's dead?
Jim White (36:05):
It kind of looks more like someone else, you know,
like when we were there withhim, it was like it was him, but
the photos don't really, theydon't reflect it.
Lo Carmen (36:11):
That's so wonderful that you got to do that.
Jim White (36:14):
Oh, it was amazing.
I felt, I mean, I felt reallyloved that he waited, you know,
that was so nice.
Lo Carmen (36:20):
Yeah.
Jim White (36:21):
It was so kind.
I thought that was so generous,you know.
Lo Carmen (36:23):
That is incrediblygenerous.
Jim White (36:25):
He also, he had dementia, but it was like in
that period, also talking to mysisters who'd been with him a
few days before as well, I sawit then.
I saw it like he transcendedhis dementia, which I later on
talked to someone who knows, whowent through a lot of stuff
with dementia and dementiahealth groups and everything.
She's like that.
Oh, that.
She goes, oh, that happens, youknow.
Lo Carmen (36:46):
I've read about that,too
Jim White (36:48):
t Because he just seemed totally there.
He just suddenly got over it.
He was there.
You know, we spent a lot oftime with him with the dementia,
and I'd seen him just the weekbefore, too, before he fell.
He was doing a lot of things inhis mind, you know.
There was a lot of stuff goingon, work things, and then he was
a university professor guy, andthere was stuff going on in
whatever world he was in, youknow.
Yeah, it was like back in time.
And maybe also some stuff inthe facility that he was in.
(37:10):
It was hard to know sometimes,but...
I also spent time with himearlier when he had dementia, a
couple of years earlier when hewas at home in the country.
I went up there and stayed fora couple of months in the early
pandemic period to help hispartner hang out with him or
whatever you want to call it.
So I would drive him around alot.
And he did talk about it onetime.
He said, like, he goes, I'mforgetting.
(37:32):
I'm just forgetting things, youknow.
And I'm like, well, you'rereally old.
He said to me what his age wasand he had it wrong and I'm
like, no, you're this and hegoes, how do you know that?
And I said, well, you were bornthen.
And he goes, ah.
And he started laughing.
And Ih said, don't worry,you're old, your memory's not as
good, not what it was, youknow.
And he started laughing hishead off and he goes, well,
(37:52):
that's old.
So, you know, he wasn't,
Lo Carmen (37:56):
Right.
He wasn't in a bad place.
H
Jim White (37:59):
He wasn't.
He was probably slightly lessbad mood than he was before he
had dementia.
And he wasn't in a bad moodthen either.
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (38:07):
Yeah.
I've met your dad.
He was so gorgeous.
Jim White (38:10):
Oh,right. Yeah.
Yeah.
He maintained his charm.
You know, he was 90 when hewent.
Lo Carmen (38:16):
Wow.
Well, that sounds like a reallybeautiful death.
Jim White (38:19):
Yeah.
It was beautiful.
Everyone's like, you know, oh,my God, I'm so sorry.
I'm like, actually, it waspretty fantastic.
Lo Carmen (38:25):
I think it's more than all right to acknowledge
that a death is beautiful andgood if somebody gets to have a
decent long life and gets to diewith their family and with some
music they love.
Jim White (38:39):
I didn't know it was such a big deal to be with
someone when they died.
I'd never been with anyone whenthey died and I didn't know
that was a thing.
I definitely thought it seemedamazing, but I didn't know that
it was...
I told my friends, I go, that'sso amazing, you should try and
be...
You know, from my experience, Iwould really recommend trying
to be there.
It's like, if I wouldn't havemade it in time or just not been
(39:00):
there, been away somewhere orsomething, it would have been a
very different experience, theunknown.
You know, it was like, it waskind of beautiful.
He just did a couple of, like,two short breaths and he was
gone.
Like two gulps or something,you know, two ones that were
different.
And then he was gone.
It's like so peaceful.
Lo Carmen (39:18):
Wow.
Jim White (39:18):
I know that's not, I know that's not everyone's
experience, you
Lo Carmen (39:21):
No.
But...
That sounds like a...
Jim White (39:25):
That's like one of those things that you hear about
a good death or whatever.
Lo Carmen (39:28):
Yeah.
I mean, that's exactly the kindof death I would like.
Jim White (39:32):
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (39:32):
If I get a choice.
Jim White (39:33):
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (39:34):
Bob Dylan, my three children.
Jim White (39:36):
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (39:37):
Bring it on.
Jim White (39:38):
Yeah.
What are the chances?
Lo Carmen (39:39):
Hopefully good! Some birds singing.
Jim White (39:44):
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (39:45):
Yeah.
In abed.
Jim White (39:46):
Yeah.
Comfortable.
That's the other thing.
I mean, he must have been inpain.
But he kind of transcended it.
He didn't show it and hedidn't, apparently for the days
before that he'd been fine.
But he just did not seem, yeah.
I think his mind, I think hetranscended it all.
I think his mind, you know, hehad a good mind and then I guess
in the dementia it came backand helped him.
Lo Carmen (40:06):
Yeah.
Jim White (40:07):
Whatever, but it was nice.
Lo Carmen (40:08):
Do you have any kind of philosophical or spiritual
ideas about where he is?
Like, is he just gone, or doyou feel like he's in the cosmos
somewhere, or in heaven orhell?
Jim White (40:19):
No, I don't normally have any theories about that
kind of thing, and definitely nosort of those literal things
that people talk about.
Although, do you know thissinger, Mary Margaret O'Hara?
Lo Carmen (40:29):
Yeah.
Jim White (40:30):
She's a pretty good mate of mine and she's like, you
know, Jimmy, your dad died.
Like, you know, I told her orsomething.
I don't know when it came up.
She's like, did you see him?
Did you see him after?
I go, what are you talkingabout?
Because the weird thing was Idid see him outside the corner.
You know, I don't reallybelieve in that, you know, but I
saw him out the corner of myeye through the window at the
table, you know, just for asecond.
(40:50):
It was like maybe the day afteror something that he died.
My sisters and I, we went backto his place and we were hanging
out there.
And I went back, I think I wentback to work, you know, to
travel after a couple of days.
But, like, they hung out.
And every time I rang them up,they just kept staying there.
And even the day or two that Istayed there, like, I wish I
could have kept staying there.
It was so nice hanging out inhis house with my sisters.
Lo Carmen (41:12):
With his stuff.
Jim White (41:13):
With his stuff and the kind of, you know, the world
was sort of outside.
It was a really right.
It felt like important, youknow.
I think we would have stayedlonger.
But, you know, Mary startedtelling me, you should call it
off and do it.
She's close with death.
She knows about death.
She's got so much about it.
You know, and she was like,I'll just say this one little
bit of one story because she'sgot a lot of stories, but I'm
(41:34):
sure she'll talk to you.
But she was like, yeah, youknow, when my dad died, I was
there at the hospital and then Iwent back to where I was
staying and I just was lying inbed and I just felt his body
just go right through me.
And then they rang me up andthey told me he was dead, you
know.
And, you know, those storiesthat you hear, she feels that
kind of thing.
You know, whatever.
But yeah, and yes, I'm happy tosay, I'm quite comfortable to
(41:56):
say I don't believe in thatstuff.
And I'm also very
Lo Carmen (41:59):
happy...
Happy to say that you've hadsome strange experiences.
Jim White (42:02):
Yeah, and that when someone tells me a story like
that, I believe them.
Same.
You know, I don't, but...
Lo Carmen (42:07):
I haven't had any experiences like that myself,
but I've heard some otherstories and I totally believe
them.
Jim White (42:13):
Yes, I believe them, but I'm also happy to say that I
believe in that stuff, youknow, and I don't really find a
problem...
It doesn't make any sense, whatI'm saying, logically.
But, you know, it's good enoughfor me.
Lo Carmen (42:27):
I think I have a similar kind of belief
structure.
Jim's dad is not the onlyperson I've heard about that has
died while listening to musicthat they love or music that
they've pre-chosen to die to.
It's a surprisingly commonphenomenon and the idea of it
brings me a lot of comfort.
A dear music-loving friend ofmine, Mick, died many years ago,
(42:52):
and I was told he was listeningto It's a Wonderful World as he
went, which just seems like theperfect song to see you out the
door, if you know what I mean.
Another friend of mine, Danny,who was larger than life and a
fabulous performer, requestedhis friends put Vivaldi's Four
Seasons on and died just as itfinished.
(43:13):
How magnificent anddramatically beautiful is that?
Reddit, my favourite place onthe internet, is awash with
mysterious tales of connectionsbetween certain songs and a
person who has died, and thatsong spookily appearing out of
(43:34):
nowhere or coming on in asurprising, unexpected fashion
at a pertinent time.
things that don't really seemto make logical sense but that
feel very meaningful to theperson that's experiencing this
intimate connection with themusic and the one they loved.
Here's my former school teacherJane who was actually the very
(43:56):
first person that I went to foran interview.
I'll be sharing more of herstory in another episode but
Here she'd just been telling mehow her husband had been
spending a lot of time curatinga playlist of music that he
loved, and she later realisedall of the songs seemed to
reference death.
Jane Skinner (44:16):
It's very difficult to listen to.
Lo Carmen (44:19):
Is it a dark playlist?
Jane Skinner (44:20):
Well, no, it's great music.
I'll show you what's on it.
But it's kind of bizarre thathe did it like he knew somehow
without knowing.
That's what I thought.
Lo Carmen (44:33):
Right.
Jane Skinner (44:34):
I had a feeling that he knew somehow.
And I don't know whether heactually knew or whether he just
had a feeling that he was sick.
But it was very strange that hemade this particular thing.
It's spooky when you look atall the things on this playlist.
And the last track on it isTake Me to Church, which we were
(44:56):
listening to when he died.
Lo Carmen (44:57):
Seriously?
Jane Skinner (44:59):
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (45:03):
I can't imagine how emotional that was to
experience.
And here's an old familyfriend, Andrew, telling me about
the death of his brother aftera long illness.
All the family had gatheredtogether in the hospital room.
(45:25):
The tight group of brothers allhad a very strong connection to
each other through music,through sharing music, loving
music, talking about it, jokingabout it.
His brother had already plannedhis funeral playlist with
Andrew and one of his favouritesongs was 'Gimme Shelter'
Andrew Galpin (45:43):
So, you know, we all knew that, oh, David's gone
to hospital, right, OK, this isbig.
You know, the doctor said, youshould come in now.
And the weird thing for me withthat is...
When I've had that happen inthe past, and I've thought about
it and thought, what's this madrush to the hospital to go and
see them?
Is it for me, you know, to saymy goodbyes and things like
(46:07):
that?
And, oh, no, I now get it.
Lo Carmen (46:11):
What do you think?
Why?
Andrew Galpin (46:12):
We were there to help him, to go with him, you
know. To let him know that itwas all right. To be right by
his side, yep.
Yep, so.
Lo Carmen (46:21):
Yeah.
Andrew Galpin (46:21):
It was, yeah.
Lo Carmen (46:23):
Let him feel that you were letting him go.
Andrew Galpin (46:27):
Well, it was, yeah, a job to do too, you know,
to be there and stand alongsidehim, you know.
We were just in a hospital roomand we were just chatting away,
you know.
It's just it wasn't a big deal.
It wasn't, you know, David wasthere.
We were there.
And it was all, you know, howare you doing?
What are you doing nowadays?
(46:48):
You know, a bit of that andthat.
And I thought, I'll just putsome music on my iPhone.
And I thought, well, I'll justplay some Rolling Stones.
And, you know, I hardly everlisten to them, really.
But, yeah, so I just startedplaying some songs.
And I sent it in the hand basinthere so I would, you know,
give it some amplification.
And, you know, we're justchatting.
(47:08):
Tim's saying, oh, I don't,like, miss you.
It's just too disco.
And, oh, you know, it's takingthe piss, Tim.
You know, we're just having alaugh about it all.
And then...
We just noticed there was somemovement and mum had got up and
she was right by him holding hishand and Karen and Stacey were
on the other side and we'vegone, oh, right, okay, oh, shit,
(47:30):
we're here, this is it.
And I thought, I think I'lljust pull that music right down
for the moment and just let'sget a feel for what's going on.
And so I just hid it in mypocket and then I just turned it
right down.
And then I thought...
I might put that back on.
And I just pulled it out of mypocket and looked and went like
(47:51):
two clicks down and hit give meshelter.
Just started it up.
Quietly.
And I thought, I'll just see ifmum or, you know, if mum might
turn around.
Couldn't you turn that off or,you know, something.
And no one did.
And so I just kept tuning thevolume up and set it back in the
sink.
And, yeah.
Lo Carmen (48:13):
Yeah.
Andrew Galpin (48:13):
And he went listening to his favourite
music.
And the music, the lyricsaside, and David wouldn't have
paid much attention to thelyrics, it was the music side
that he would have loved aboutit.
And it's just got thatdrifting, floating, you know,
carry away kind of feel to it.
(48:35):
Yeah, like a bridge.
Yeah, yeah.
Lo Carmen (48:40):
A musical bridge.
Andrew Galpin (48:40):
To Valhalla.
Lo Carmen (48:42):
Yeah.
(49:27):
Turns out death is a prettygreat conversation starter.
We tend to learn reallyilluminating, intimate things
about each other when we havethese conversations.
I wasn't surprised to find thatperhaps a place where Jim and I
meet, apart from on the musicalplane, is in a kind of place of
(49:50):
acceptance of the world as itis.
and an understanding that theworld might be full of things
that we can't control, orsometimes even explain.
But the beat goes on, andthat's alright.
I'd like to share a selectionof words from the liner notes
(50:13):
that the artist Bill Callahanwrote for Jim's new solo album,
All Hits, Memories, on Drag CityRecords.
I'll leave a link to it in theshow notes and on my sub stack.
And you can also keep up withJim at jimwhitedrums.com.
Before humans, drums wereplaying.
These drums.
Genesis was a solo drum piece.
(50:35):
After humans, these drums.
This album.
Someone, the last man, is outin a spaceship at the end of
space.
He plays a single chord on asynth.
To set time free from its bind.
And then let's go.
This album sets time free.
(50:56):
A deft surgical operation.
Let's it fall in, let's itgraze, let's it remember.
This is a record of thoughts,memories, surgery.
A deft surgical operation.
You may not even realize it'shappening as it's happening.
Put your back on your feet whenit's over.
Memories refreshed.
Jim White (51:17):
What's that about?
Lo Carmen (51:18):
a I don't know, Jim.
The world is weird.
Jim White (51:21):
The world's weird.
Do you want to hear the songofftherecord? t
Lo Carmen (51:25):
r Yeah.
Jim White (51:25):
I'll play you that one
Lo Carmen (51:32):
Wow.
Thank you to Jim White forgoing deep with me on this
episode.
And thank you to Jim and DragCity Records for permission to
use selections from Jim's album.
All Hits Memories, nowavailable everywhere.
This conversation was recordedbefore his solo album was
(51:55):
released, but due to variousreasons beyond my control, it's
taken a while to get out intothe world to you.
Heartfelt thanks also to JaneSkinner, Andrew Galpin and Ray
Argyle for talking with me andfor sharing their stories.
Death Is Not The End wascreated, written, recorded and
(52:19):
edited by me, your host, LoCarmen, with additional sound
design and editing by AidanYoung.
The Death Is Not The End thememusic is written, performed and
recorded by Peter Head.
He also recorded versions ofTake Me To Church and It's A
(52:40):
Wonderful World for thisepisode.
Thank you so much to the estateof Rachel Cootes for permission
to use her composition, I AmDreaming of You.
The live excerpt of Sue's LastRide by The Dirty Three was from
a concert that I recorded atBeck's Festival Bar in Sydney,
(53:02):
Australia, 2004.
You can find my song GulwarBlue on the 2009 album It Walks
Like Love.
Thank you very much to EmmaSwift and Tiny Ghost Records for
permission to use her versionof Sad-Eyed Lady of the
Lowlands, originally recorded,of course, by Bob Dylan.
(53:23):
It's from her album Blonde onthe Tracks.
You're going to want to get onthat.
Thank you to Jimmy Dillon andhis band for permission to use
their live in Hawaii version ofGimme Shelter, originally
recorded, of course, by theRolling Stones.
Thanks to Peter Head, also forpermission to use his recordings
(53:48):
of Bon Scott singing his songs,Kerrigully and Round and Round.
extra incidental music thanksto the Moby Gratis Descript and
MuseOpen music libraries.
The repertoire on this podcastwas licensed by APRA AMCOS.
If you'd like to talk aboutanything you've heard on this
(54:12):
episode today or you've hadstories that you'd like to
share, I'd love to hear from youat lowcarmen.sobstack.com.
You can come find me there.
You can also rate, review,follow and all of that at any of
your podcast providers and Iwould surely appreciate that.
(54:33):
You've been listening to DeathIs Not The End, a Black
Tambourine Productionsproduction.
Thank you for being here andsee you on the other side.
Despite their very best efforts, the scientific
community has concluded thattime travel is just not
possible, and time can only movein one direction.
(00:23):
Irreversible phenomena.
You can't unsmash a plate...
or uncook an egg.
You can't un-die.
But there are many things thatseem to exist outside the realms
of the realistic or thepossible.
Things that just happen.
(00:44):
And music is often the catalystor the bridge that connects us
with these liminal spaces thatstretch or violate the laws of
what we know to be true.
Music appears to have theability to reconnect us with
moments from our past, andsometimes with people.
Music can act as a direct lineto our old selves, whether it's
(01:08):
a melody, a note, a rhythm, apattern, or a lyric that
transports us.
When our minds are free towander, which occurs when we're
doing something that keeps usbusy, repetitive tasks that
don't take up a lot of mentalspace, like...
washing dishes or walking,we're more likely to experience
(01:29):
involuntary memories.
Often when we find ourselveslost in a memory, we're not even
sure what that trigger was.
Rather than replaying scenes inchronological order, memories
are retrieved as littledisconnected snapshots.
The brain stores memories inthe hippocampus, A small, slimy,
(01:49):
seahorse-shaped filing cabinet,no bigger than five centimetres
long, that records, stores andtags our feelings, sensations
and perceptions as they occur,encoding sensory details
together that then serve as cuesthat trigger memories.
Music awakens and stimulatesmental pathways that nothing
(02:12):
else can touch, and thatsometimes can't be explained,
There appears to be an avalancheof strange connections.
We're going to get deeper intothis and let our minds wander
through memory, philosophy, oddconnections, music, and dying.
In this episode, I'm talkingwith drummer Jim White, as well
(02:38):
as being one of the mostthrilling multi-dimensional and
prolific musicians in the worldtoday.
He's an old friend of mine andone of my favorite people to
talk to.
When we meet up, Jim's in themiddle of a tour.
It's the morning after he'splayed the night before and
he'll be playing again thatevening.
(03:00):
This is where you can find Jimmost of the time, in this
transitory space between movingon getting ready and creating
the music that will take hisaudience places that they
perhaps didn't expect to go.
Maybe accidental timetravelling.
Jim tends to play music thatstirs strong emotions in people.
(03:22):
I'm going to drop you into aconversation where Jim and I are
talking about whether he shouldmention this kind of surreal
experience that he had a longtime ago while he was performing
with his band, The Dirty Three,As he does the press for his
new solo album, All HitsMemories, because the first
single of this album, Names Makethe Name, was partly inspired
(03:46):
by this experience.
You might hear George, Jim'sbandmate in the background on
the phone and trucks passing andbirds twittering.
That's just the reality ofwhere we were.
Jim White (04:00):
I mean, I find it interesting.
Lo Carmen (04:04):
Do you want a donut?
Jim White (04:05):
No.
There I am, like...
I've just never said anythingto anyone for 30, 40 years.
Lo Carmen (04:12):
Yeah
Jim White (04:12):
You know, really like, like really deliberate,
like, you know.
Lo Carmen (04:15):
Yeah.
Jim White (04:15):
You know, yeah, you know what Imean?
I do.
Like, especially publicly.
I mean, I can talk, I know Ican talk better personally now
too than I used to, but evenpublicly, like, and then all of
a sudden I'm like talking aboutdead people, like, you know,
talking about, what am I tryingto say?
Lo Carmen (04:31):
So Jim mentioned in this newspaper interview that he
had a dead friend.
He used to appear in front ofhim on stage when he'd play a
certain song.
He just kind of casuallydropped this into the
conversation and then they moveon to other topics.
But I couldn't stop thinkingabout it.
So that's one of the reasonsthat I reached out to Jim to see
(04:56):
if he'd talk with me for thisepisode.
Jim White (04:58):
Oh, yeah, and I said it, yeah, and I never told
anyone.
And I was like, I fell underpressure to say something in
this interview.
Oh, no.
And I said, I've never toldanyone before.
Lo Carmen (05:06):
And then suddenly you've told the world.
Jim White (05:08):
And then I said it, and then, yeah, and then I'm
sort of surprised because, youknow, you were like, what's
going on with that?
And then some people came up tome and were like, you know, I
didn't know anyone who read thepaper anymore.
Anyway, well, the story is, I'mtelling you the story.
This friend of mine died.
And then...
Well, he used to play thissong.
Lo Carmen (05:34):
Did the song have anything to do with your friend?
Jim White (05:37):
No.
And she disappeared in front ofthe drums, you know.
Kind of just in the air alittle bit.
I don't think it was.
(05:59):
I don't know where she wasexactly.
She was just there.
Kind of, you know, not always,but quite often.
Lo Carmen (06:07):
Like facing you?
Jim White (06:09):
Yeah, facing me.
Yeah.
You know, not...
Not weird.
Not bad or anything.
Not weird.
No, not weird at all.
Just like kind of...
But, you know, it was sad.
You know, I used to feel sadsometimes.
because it felt emotional, butnot that bad or anything.
You know, and then, like, evenmy bandmates, you know, Warren
(06:31):
and Mika, who I'm very closewith and everything, I never
told them.
I never mentioned anybody.
Lo Carmen (06:35):
So did you make a decision not to talk about it,
or did it just feel private?
It
Jim White (06:40):
just felt private.
You know, it made me feel likeI didn't need anyone's opinion
on it.
I didn't want anyone's opinionon it.
I'd rather just have it.
And then, you know, it justcame...
You know, and I always forget.
It's kind of you always forget.
And then it's like, oh, youknow.
And kind of, you know, youfeel, you know, music's
emotional anyway.
And, you know.
And then after a while Istarted wondering whether I was
(07:02):
kind of milking it.
You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
And then after that it justkind of dissipated.
It came less often, I don'tthink, than some point.
Do you feel like you made akind of mental decision to not–
Let it No, I think I made amental decision not to hang on
(07:23):
to it.
Don't ask me how that works.
Lo Carmen (07:26):
Yeah, right.
Just a mysterious happening.
Jim White (07:31):
I'd be hard-pressed to say how long it was for,
whether it was for months ormaybe a few months or something.
I'm not really sure.
Lo Carmen (07:45):
If any music was going to conjure...
someone, I can imagine would beDirty Three Music.
Jim White (07:52):
Yeah, but once again, I mean, I don't think she was,
you know, I don't think she wasreally there or anything.
Lo Carmen (07:57):
Yeah.
Jim White (07:58):
You know?
Yeah.
But, you know.
Lo Carmen (07:59):
Now, like I said, the Dirty Three do play very
moving, powerful music that canexcite very intense responses
from their audiences.
Just to give a taster of thejourney that one of their songs
might take you on to those thatare unfamiliar...
I've spliced together a coupleof sections from a live
(08:20):
performance of a beloved11-minute Dirty Three song
called Sue's Last Ride.
I do think that there's somekind of weird spatial
(08:53):
connections that go on.
I
Jim White (08:55):
don't know about, like I say, I don't have any,
you know, I don't have, like I'msaying all the things, like,
you know, things appearing and,you know, I don't actually have
any relationship to that stuff.
Lo Carmen (09:04):
No, I've never heard you talk like that in, what, 30
years of friendship.
Jim White (09:09):
Yeah, I don't have any interest in, you know,
You're not a conspiracy UFO guy?
No.
Music is like, you know...
Lo Carmen (09:20):
Music somehow connects people to strange
things that are impossible toexplain.
Jim White (09:28):
Well, I mean, it activates some part of the brain
and, you know, feelings andstuff.
But, yeah, I really don't haveany...
I mean, you know...
Yeah, I don't express anyinterest in...
Lo Carmen (09:43):
Spooky shit.
Jim White (09:47):
I don't have any... I just don't feel like that, you
know.
I don't believe in anythinglike that.
Lo Carmen (10:03):
Stravinsky said, if music appears to express
something...
This is only an illusion andnot a reality.
Brahms described the act ofcomposing music as putting him
in a semi-trance-like state,saying, I immediately feel
vibrations that thrill my wholebeing.
(10:24):
These are the spiritilluminating the soul power
within, and in this exaltedstate, I see clearly what is
obscure in my ordinary moods.
Beethoven, Puccini, Wagner andStrauss also all described
(10:54):
variations on enteringtrance-like states through
music.
Beethoven told an interviewerthat music is the one
incorporated entrance into thehigher worlds of knowledge which
comprehends mankind, but whichmankind cannot comprehend.
Sufis believe that music helpsto free the physical effort from
(11:25):
conscious thought, since bothmind and will must be suspended
if ecstasy is to be attained.
This is where the concept ofthe whirling dervish comes from.
(11:57):
The mystical teachings ofHazrat Inayat Khan state, Some
would say the same descriptioncould easily be applied to music
(12:19):
made by the Dirty Three.
Drums and chants are used byold Sufi masters to lead
devotees towards thismusic-associated trance state
where they describe losing allsense of this reality and
leaving their bodies.
Dervishes are able to inflictsevere injuries upon themselves,
(12:50):
supposedly without pain orbleeding, then heal the wounds
within seconds without leaving ascar.
Joe Nicol, a senior researchfellow for the Committee for
Skeptical Inquiry, anorganisation that promotes
(13:10):
scientific and criticalinvestigation of paranormal and
other extraordinary claims, saysthat he's investigated claims
of ghosts, haunted houses,vampires, werewolves, exorcisms,
sea monsters and other unusualpsychic phenomenon for over 40
years now and has still neverfound a paranormal
(13:33):
justification.
According to Nicholl, it'spossible that seeing a ghost or
experiencing waking dreams mightbe an illusion produced by the
brain when there's a disconnectbetween mind and body.
because a person is tired, orin a state of near reverie or
daydream, or performing mindlessrepetitive tasks.
(13:55):
These all make us moresusceptible to these visions.
Physiological conditions suchas sleep paralysis or hypnagogic
hallucinations, which arethings you might see when you're
falling asleep, or hypnopompichallucinations, which are things
(14:15):
that you might see when you'retrying to wake up, can also
prompt these visions or deeplymeditative trance-like states,
which are known for producingvivid, meaningful feeling
visions, often involving thosewho have died.
It's not hard to imagine thatJim or someone could
(14:39):
unintentionally put himself in akind of trance through intense
drumming.
That could be an explanationfor how he saw his friend The
(15:04):
Nagoma Voodoo Healers inTanzania Use music to manifest
(15:25):
spirits.
Drums and rhythmic percussion,particularly played by the ones
seeking to enter the trancestate, are at the heart of
shamanic practices across theworld, from Korea to Venezuela,
Siberia to the Celtics, wherethe rituals involve losing
oneself and connecting withspirits through the paranormal
(15:45):
power of music.
Watching Jim play drums as anaudience member has sometimes
put me in a kind of otherworldlytrance-like state, and I know
I'm not alone in that.
I've also experienced kind oftransformative states while
performing my own music onstage, where I feel like I'm
(16:06):
both there and not there.
my playing and singing becomeeffortless.
I'm literally lost in music,like I'm in a waking dream with
no beginning or end. I'vewritten songs that mentally
(16:33):
conjure up a person who's died.
I can sometimes feel the warmthor the presence of that person
there with me as I perform thesong.
I've never experienced seeingthem on stage, but the sensation
of feeling them there with meis an odd, nice, briefly
mystical kind of feeling.
The stage can be its ownworld. Jim's experiences of
(17:16):
seeing his friend appear infront of him on stage, other
strange connections to hercontinued to evolve in his life,
like other women with the samename as her and sometimes linked
with her in other ways thatkept turning up and becoming
important people in his life.
It felt like a slightly uncannythread.
Jim White (17:39):
So I wrote this thing, I wrote it yesterday.
I've got this record comingout, and the first song is
called That.
Names make the names.
Names make the name.
And so they asked me to writesomething about it, so I wrote
that.
That's what it's about.
Lo Carmen (17:57):
Wow, that's beautiful.
Jim White (17:59):
But I didn't put the part about the...
I left out the part about hercoming on the stage.
Lo Carmen (18:04):
You should put that in, because that's...
Jim White (18:06):
That takes it into the...
Lo Carmen (18:07):
You feel like it's too...
that people will thinkyou're...crazy
Jim White (18:13):
you know, the main reason I'm writing it is because
I want to make, when I do pressfor the record, I want the
conversation to be moreinteresting than, like, where
did you record?
Lo Carmen (18:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jim White (18:24):
You know, so I can always leave it.
I can always add it in then.
Lo Carmen (18:27):
Have you had...
Jim White (18:28):
Isn't that weird, though?
Lo Carmen (18:29):
It's really weird.
Jim White (18:30):
And then you said, do you want to dothisthing...
Lo Carmen (18:31):
Yeah.
But, I mean, like what we weresaying before about how
everything's kind of...
connected in weird ways that wecan't quite understand
Jim White (18:39):
it's not that weird , not that i'm not that okay i'm
not that comfortable with idon't know if i agree with that
like the weird ways we can'tjust like i mean i'm saying yes
i don't understand it but thebrain is for making patterns you
know so there's patterns youknow so this record's kind of
this record's called like allhits memories and because it's
like you know it's like why doyou remember one thing and not
(19:01):
the other thing because it's ahit so a hit on the brain
somehow it wasn't a hit itwouldn't be a memory and if it
wasn't memory it wouldn't
Lo Carmen (19:11):
That's quite weird because i just learned about
that - that's how you makememories - to be a memory it has
to make quite an impressionit's like you take a kind of 360
snapshot you need like a tomake a memory you know maybe a
sound oh that's kind of acombination of of things i think
that's right and
Jim White (19:29):
Also every time you remember it you take it out and
then you put it back in again, sit changes.
Lo Carmen (19:35):
Yes, and you actually take away a little bit.
Jim White (19:38):
I don't have any like spiritual or religious
framework at all, you know.
So, you know, the brain is likea pattern recognition machine,
you know what I mean?
I don't know why we rememberthat but not that, you know.
Anyway, so yeah.
Lo Carmen (19:51):
So is it a solo drum record or do you play other
things as well?
Jim White (19:55):
Yeah, it's got keyboards on as well, which I
play.
Not that I can play them, but Ican.
I just did the drums, I wantedthe drums to have, I just wanted
to have like a friend.
A friend?
Lo Carmen (20:14):
You were worried about your drums being lonely.
Jim White (20:17):
I wanted the drums to have a note or something, you
know, and then I did the note,but then, you know, it was too
much fun, so I did a couple, dida few notes.
Lo Carmen (20:23):
Yeah, that sounds great.
Jim White (20:24):
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (20:27):
Jim and I both emerged at different times from
a kind of underground Australianmusic scene.
where a rather heartbreakingnumber of its pioneers and
supporters are no longer withus.
I could easily name 20 friendsand musical peers and heroes
that we both knew and loved thathave died via illness, accident
(20:48):
or misadventure.
And I have no doubt Jim has abunch of other friends from his
travels around the world thathave died too young also.
Now I'm not sure if musicpeople seem to die at a higher
rate than other professions.
But sometimes it feels like it.
The first death I everexperienced was my musician
(21:10):
dad's best friend, Bon Scott,who you may know from ACDC, but
my dad and Bon made a differentkind of countrified rock and
roll together. I still rememberanswering the phone as a little
(21:39):
kid and it was our friend inLondon informing us that he'd
died before it hit the news.
We got a message to my dad whowas performing in a piano bar in
the Northern Territory when thenews came in and he was too
upset to keep playing.
Peter says the whole barfollowed by the whole town.
(22:09):
joined him in sorrow, and theyall headed down to the riverbed
and had a wild wake lying aroundin the creek.
A fairly fitting, impromptusend-off.
Bon's death hit the Adelaiderock and roll community very
hard.
He was everybody's friend,beloved, and I think probably
(22:34):
one of the very first people inthat friend group to die.
It also hit me really hard,even though I was only nine or
ten years old, because Bon wasvery funny and lovely and had
told me that he'd seen our dogHarry's ghost in the driveway
and that Harry looked reallyhappy, which made me really
(22:55):
happy.
I tried to have a séance withmy friends next door to
communicate with him, but itdidn't work.
And my mum let me stay homefrom school for...
What seemed like a couple ofweeks but was probably a couple
of days.
Anyway, we all still miss him,along with the rest of the
(23:17):
world.
I don't have a whole lot ofphotos from the 1990s, but I've
brought along a picture to showJim of a group of us from then,
(23:40):
where two of our friends in thephoto have since died.
Zanzibar.
Jim White (23:45):
Oh, Zanzibar.
Lo Carmen (23:46):
Yeah.
Jim White (23:47):
Damien.
Lo Carmen (23:47):
Damien.
Jim White (23:48):
You.
Lo Carmen (23:49):
And me and Wazza.
Jim White (23:50):
James.
That's you, right?
Oh, Warren.
Look at Warren.
Lo Carmen (23:53):
I know.
He has no beard.
Jim White (23:55):
James.
Lo Carmen (23:56):
Angela.
That was James' girlfriend.
Mick Turner.
And Monica.
Jim White (24:01):
Oh, look at Monica.
Yeah.
Where am I?
Lo Carmen (24:04):
Maybe you took the picture!
Jim White (24:05):
We used to always go there after the show, didn't we?
Lo Carmen (24:07):
Yeah.
I used to do gigs there everyTuesday night.
Jim White (24:10):
That was that one on the little side street?
Lo Carmen (24:12):
Yeah.
Jim White (24:12):
In the King's Cross?
Lo Carmen (24:13):
Yeah.
Jim White (24:14):
It was that awful time in Melbourne when there
were so many people dying aroundthat when we were in our 30s, I
guess.
Lo Carmen (24:20):
Yeah, it did feel like a period where there were
lots of people dying.
Yeah, Norm.
Jim White (24:25):
Andrew Entsch.
Lo Carmen (24:25):
I don't know if it's musicians...
if musicians seem to have morefriends that die...
Jim White (24:36):
I feel like people I know...
I...
Lo Carmen (24:38):
I feel like I've got so many dead friends.
Jim White (24:39):
I feel like when they...
If I get to know someone andthen, like, you know, over time,
just in passing you say, oh,blah, blah, blah, and then
they're dead or whatever, I feellike a friend of mine a few
years ago was like, what are youtalking about?
Like, how can you know so manydead people, you know?
But, I mean, I guess...
It's a pretty social life,being a musician, so to know a
(25:01):
lot of
Lo Carmen (25:02):
Yes, that's true.
Jim White (25:04):
From what I've seen, it seems like a high mortality,
you know,
Lo Carmen (25:11):
Yeah.
I guess there's a lot of peoplethat have, you know, lived
pretty hard, et cetera.
When you lose friends, do yousometimes want to listen to a
song after you've heard thatthey've died that will bring
them back to you in a song?
Jim White (25:26):
No.
Lo Carmen (25:26):
No.
So what's...
Jim White (25:30):
Like what do you mean?
What do youdo?
Lo Carmen (25:32):
y d What do I do?
Jim White (25:33):
Yeah,
Lo Carmen (25:33):
I would probably listen to a song, like if
there's a song that's connectedwith that person.
But like what you were sayingbefore about how as musicians
you tend to have a really, youknow, a wide community of people
that you know, maybe a widercommunity than a lot of people
because you travel
Jim White (25:53):
You and me are pretty sociable.
Lo Carmen (25:55):
Pretty sociable.
I don't really get upset nowwhen I hear that somebody's
died.
I just kind of go, I'll seethem on the other side if
there's such a thing.
Jim White (26:06):
You don't feel upset anymore?
Lo Carmen (26:07):
No.
I don't.Idon't feel likethere's much difference between
them being dead or alive.
Jim White (26:14):
Yeah, that's really...
Lo Carmen (26:15):
I don't know what to make of that, but that is how I
feel.
Jim White (26:21):
Yeah.
I mean, do you remember how...
Do you remember how I used totear you apart?
Lo Carmen (26:25):
Yeah, I do.
Jim White (26:26):
Yeah. Like you'd hear of someone that you didn't even
know that well dying and itwould...
Sometimes it would just get you,right?
...plunge you into a terribledepression and...
Yes, I used to get so upset.
...so shocking.
But, you know, I've beentrying...
I've got this thing, like thismetaphor that I only find people
like where I'm like, you know,when you drop your phone, it's
going to smash on the ground,right?
(26:47):
I try to be over it by the timeit's about there.
You know, it's like it'sabout...
six inches out of your hand.
If you can't catch it, and Itry to be over it, it's like,
whatever, you know, it'ssmashed.
Yeah.
You know, I don't know if it issmashed or not, you know.
I don't know, I'm not sayingdead people are the same as
my phone...
Lo Carmen (27:03):
But maybe it's an ability to understand that the
world doesn't end as you getolder.
Jim White (27:09):
But also that, you know, you getting all torn up
about it does not help you orthem or anyone.
No.
And the kind of...
Lo Carmen (27:17):
I don't think getting torn up about anything helps
anything.
Jim White (27:20):
As we older, like, you know, the time's more
limited.
Lo Carmen (27:22):
Yes, y this is a weird question, but do you keep
all your dead friends in yourphone?
Jim White (27:29):
I certainly don't delete them.
Lo Carmen (27:31):
No.
I just often find, like I'mgoing through to find something
in a hurry and I suddenly go,jeez, so many dead friends in my
phone.
Jim White (27:40):
What about Shane?
Was Shane in there?
Lo Carmen (27:42):
Yeah, Shane would be in my phone.
Messages.
I miss Shane too.
He was such a cheeky bugger.
... As I grow older, I feellike I'm able to process death
and dying in a morephilosophical way perhaps than
when I was younger.
I'm more understanding thatdeath is a part of life and that
(28:04):
none of us have promised anyparticular length of time to
exist.
So although it feels reallyhard to bear and unfair when
someone we love diesunexpectedly or younger than
we'd hope, the outcome wasalways going to be the same.
The circle of life is real.
I'm just getting to that agewhere I have a lot of dead
(28:25):
friends and I've found my ownways to keep them alive in my
heart.
I was still ruminating overthis when our friend Ray came
over.
He's in his mid-60s, so he'sgot a little bit more experience
in losing people, and I askedhim how he deals with it.
Ray Argall (28:44):
It's organic in the way those things evolve and
happen.
I was thinking earlier, like,if I think of my grandmother, or
I think of Anna Kanata, theperson we absolutely adored.
Esben Storm, Sarah Watt, peoplethat I've known quite well.
You know, that's what I mean.
There's times when they're justright there.
(29:05):
That's what I say.
I can nearly touch them.
You know, I can see them.
I can feel them.
I can hear them.
You can miss people, but youwish you could have a
conversation with them, butyou're not sad about it because
you know that there's a part ofyou that's not a practical
reality.
Yeah.
That's not going to happen.
Lo Carmen (29:23):
Life and death is just death.
Ray Argall (29:25):
Thank goodness that they are there in a way, you
know.
Lo Carmen (29:28):
You just enjoy the fact that they existed and what
they brought to your life.
Ray Argall (29:33):
But when you're thinking of that person, that's
not all you're thinking of.
In actual fact, you're...
You know, the memories or thosefeelings that come back are
often completely unique.
You're not consciously tryingto bring that up, that era of
that person.
And sometimes it's past, butit's...
(29:54):
You know, you can rememberthings they've said or their
laugh or whatever.
And it's sort of relative towhere you're at at that time.
Because if you can't remember,if you've sort of forgotten, if
you're looking at a photo and...
That's all there is.
That's, you know, the photoshelp remind you.
(30:14):
And yeah, because we have somuch video and film and I think
it's a real comfort because youhaven't lost them completely.
Jim White (30:47):
My dad just died this year and he got cremated.
Lo Carmen (30:53):
Is that what he wanted?
Did you discuss it with him?
Jim White (30:56):
Yeah, that's what he wanted.
Certainly sometime in my life,in my sister's life, he used to,
you know, they used to talkabout that, our parents.
There was a piece of paper thatsaid, you know, you know,
resuscitate and stuff like thatabout quality of life.
There was some confusionbecause he had dementia.
He said some contradictorythings about where he wanted to
end up, but we kind of...
(31:17):
Actually, he's just on theshelf right now.
Lo Carmen (31:19):
What's he in?
I
Jim White (31:20):
I don't know.
My sister showed it the otherday, but it had a cover over it.
I didn't even look under.
Lo Carmen (31:24):
So like a nice urn or box or something?
Jim White (31:27):
Yeah.
It was pretty big.
Lo Carmen (31:28):
Yeah, it's surprising.
Jim White (31:30):
Two foot by one foot or something.
Lo Carmen (31:31):
And do you have any plans?
Jim White (31:32):
She said it was quite heavy when she was carrying it.
I forgot to touch it.
But he had a...
He had something about, youknow, quality of life, the
resuscitation and stuff.
You know, he mentioned that itsaid on it that he wanted music
played.
There was actually part of theform that said, you know, like
(31:53):
about is he dying, I guess.
I can't remember exactly whatit said, but, you know, he wrote
classical music and Bob Dylan.
So I was actually, you know,when he went into this decline,
the final decline, I was...
interstate and and my sisterswere like my time to come down
(32:13):
if you're going to do it i wason tour playing music so you
know we got up in the middle ofnight and we drove you know the
people i was working withdriving to the airport and got
the plane and then got rented acar and drove up to the country
and you know they were like yeahhe's he's a fine you know he's
stable don't don't speed oranything and then when i got to
the hospital i texted my sisterand she's like oh yeah you know
(32:36):
I'll come and get you becauseit's kind of hard to find I went
to the car park and she came tothe car park we were just
chatting away there was nopressure there was no pressure
or anything and then my othersister texted and said come now
so we went there and he'd beentold that I was coming and I
guess he'd also heard that I wasthere and she'd come out to get
me from the car park and anywayhis breathing had changed and
(32:56):
something was going into I meanI sort of imagined it was like
you know when you're bustingdown the toilet but you get
really close you know and thenyou're like really busting maybe
yeah um so you know so i gotthere and he was and he was
Lo Carmen (33:11):
it was like he'd been waiting for you
Jim White (33:13):
He'd been waiting you know yeah because I was, his
three kids, he was waiting forthe, i was the final one and i
got there you know and then thenurse came in and said you know
do you want to give him morphineor something now whatever and
we're like no i just got hereyou know like because that tip
like that will knock him outyeah she goes yeah probably like
take him out you know so no nono no Let's hang out, you know.
(33:34):
So, you know, and he was, hecouldn't really talk because
there was some stuff that wasgoing on in his mouth.
It was all kind of, had somedried up sort of stuff in it.
But he could talk a little bit.
It was sort of croaky, but, youknow, I'm really not sure.
But it was really nice.
Yeah.
We just hung out.
And my sister, my older sister,she had some music on and
(33:57):
classical music.
and we're hanging out.
After being there about like 20minutes or something, you know,
my oldest sister put on, sheput on Bob Dylan, like she went,
and she put on like 'Sad EyedLadies of the Lowlands'. And you
(34:23):
know, the whole room justchanged and it's like, and my
little sister, ran into thebathroom for privacy and then if
something was going on, I'dcome back, you know.
And then, the whole, and then,honestly, it was about like
three, not even three, you know,it's a long song.
So hardly, just a couple, twoor three minutes in and he
(34:51):
went...
Lo Carmen (34:51):
Oh my god
Jim White (34:52):
Yeah.
And, um,
Lo Carmen (34:54):
That's incredible.
Jim White (34:55):
It was beautiful.
You know, it was beautiful.
And he used to play, like, youknow, and Anna, she just put it
on.
She didn't say, hey, I'mthinking about putting this on.
She just put it on, you
Lo Carmen (35:02):
Yeah.
Jim White (35:03):
And...
Lo Carmen (35:03):
She was just in tune.
Jim White (35:06):
Yeah.
And then it took him out.
And then he had the...
It was like, oh, he's gone, youknow.
But then he had the littlething with oxygen going in the
nostril, so...
Because he was trying to see ifhe was, you know, you see.
Yeah, if he was gone.
But, you know, we i just hungout with him.
you know, realised hedefinitely was gone.
And, you know, everyone says,like, that it's once the spirit
(35:31):
leaves or whatever it is, youknow.
But it wasn't like that at all.
It was just like Dad.
Lo Carmen (35:36):
He didn't look any different.
Jim White (35:38):
We just hung out.
Like, you know, still justtouching him and kissing him and
patting him and stuff.
And then, you know, the womancame in, the nurse came in and
said, yeah, and then left again,just left us there.
It was like, you know, it waslike in the late afternoon in
this country town, countryhospital.
It still felt like him.
I took photos.
I took a bunch of photos.
Lo Carmen (35:59):
Really?
And
Jim White (35:59):
when I look at him, he looks like...
Lo Carmen (36:02):
It still looks like him or it looks like he's dead?
Jim White (36:05):
It kind of looks more like someone else, you know,
like when we were there withhim, it was like it was him, but
the photos don't really, theydon't reflect it.
Lo Carmen (36:11):
That's so wonderful that you got to do that.
Jim White (36:14):
Oh, it was amazing.
I felt, I mean, I felt reallyloved that he waited, you know,
that was so nice.
Lo Carmen (36:20):
Yeah.
Jim White (36:21):
It was so kind.
I thought that was so generous,you know.
Lo Carmen (36:23):
That is incrediblygenerous.
Jim White (36:25):
He also, he had dementia, but it was like in
that period, also talking to mysisters who'd been with him a
few days before as well, I sawit then.
I saw it like he transcendedhis dementia, which I later on
talked to someone who knows, whowent through a lot of stuff
with dementia and dementiahealth groups and everything.
She's like that.
Oh, that.
She goes, oh, that happens, youknow.
Lo Carmen (36:46):
I've read about that,too
Jim White (36:48):
t Because he just seemed totally there.
He just suddenly got over it.
He was there.
You know, we spent a lot oftime with him with the dementia,
and I'd seen him just the weekbefore, too, before he fell.
He was doing a lot of things inhis mind, you know.
There was a lot of stuff goingon, work things, and then he was
a university professor guy, andthere was stuff going on in
whatever world he was in, youknow.
Yeah, it was like back in time.
And maybe also some stuff inthe facility that he was in.
(37:10):
It was hard to know sometimes,but...
I also spent time with himearlier when he had dementia, a
couple of years earlier when hewas at home in the country.
I went up there and stayed fora couple of months in the early
pandemic period to help hispartner hang out with him or
whatever you want to call it.
So I would drive him around alot.
And he did talk about it onetime.
He said, like, he goes, I'mforgetting.
(37:32):
I'm just forgetting things, youknow.
And I'm like, well, you'rereally old.
He said to me what his age wasand he had it wrong and I'm
like, no, you're this and hegoes, how do you know that?
And I said, well, you were bornthen.
And he goes, ah.
And he started laughing.
And Ih said, don't worry,you're old, your memory's not as
good, not what it was, youknow.
And he started laughing hishead off and he goes, well,
(37:52):
that's old.
So, you know, he wasn't,
Lo Carmen (37:56):
Right.
He wasn't in a bad place.
H
Jim White (37:59):
He wasn't.
He was probably slightly lessbad mood than he was before he
had dementia.
And he wasn't in a bad moodthen either.
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (38:07):
Yeah.
I've met your dad.
He was so gorgeous.
Jim White (38:10):
Oh,right. Yeah.
Yeah.
He maintained his charm.
You know, he was 90 when hewent.
Lo Carmen (38:16):
Wow.
Well, that sounds like a reallybeautiful death.
Jim White (38:19):
Yeah.
It was beautiful.
Everyone's like, you know, oh,my God, I'm so sorry.
I'm like, actually, it waspretty fantastic.
Lo Carmen (38:25):
I think it's more than all right to acknowledge
that a death is beautiful andgood if somebody gets to have a
decent long life and gets to diewith their family and with some
music they love.
Jim White (38:39):
I didn't know it was such a big deal to be with
someone when they died.
I'd never been with anyone whenthey died and I didn't know
that was a thing.
I definitely thought it seemedamazing, but I didn't know that
it was...
I told my friends, I go, that'sso amazing, you should try and
be...
You know, from my experience, Iwould really recommend trying
to be there.
It's like, if I wouldn't havemade it in time or just not been
(39:00):
there, been away somewhere orsomething, it would have been a
very different experience, theunknown.
You know, it was like, it waskind of beautiful.
He just did a couple of, like,two short breaths and he was
gone.
Like two gulps or something,you know, two ones that were
different.
And then he was gone.
It's like so peaceful.
Lo Carmen (39:18):
Wow.
Jim White (39:18):
I know that's not, I know that's not everyone's
experience, you
Lo Carmen (39:21):
No.
But...
That sounds like a...
Jim White (39:25):
That's like one of those things that you hear about
a good death or whatever.
Lo Carmen (39:28):
Yeah.
I mean, that's exactly the kindof death I would like.
Jim White (39:32):
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (39:32):
If I get a choice.
Jim White (39:33):
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (39:34):
Bob Dylan, my three children.
Jim White (39:36):
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (39:37):
Bring it on.
Jim White (39:38):
Yeah.
What are the chances?
Lo Carmen (39:39):
Hopefully good! Some birds singing.
Jim White (39:44):
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (39:45):
Yeah.
In abed.
Jim White (39:46):
Yeah.
Comfortable.
That's the other thing.
I mean, he must have been inpain.
But he kind of transcended it.
He didn't show it and hedidn't, apparently for the days
before that he'd been fine.
But he just did not seem, yeah.
I think his mind, I think hetranscended it all.
I think his mind, you know, hehad a good mind and then I guess
in the dementia it came backand helped him.
Lo Carmen (40:06):
Yeah.
Jim White (40:07):
Whatever, but it was nice.
Lo Carmen (40:08):
Do you have any kind of philosophical or spiritual
ideas about where he is?
Like, is he just gone, or doyou feel like he's in the cosmos
somewhere, or in heaven orhell?
Jim White (40:19):
No, I don't normally have any theories about that
kind of thing, and definitely nosort of those literal things
that people talk about.
Although, do you know thissinger, Mary Margaret O'Hara?
Lo Carmen (40:29):
Yeah.
Jim White (40:30):
She's a pretty good mate of mine and she's like, you
know, Jimmy, your dad died.
Like, you know, I told her orsomething.
I don't know when it came up.
She's like, did you see him?
Did you see him after?
I go, what are you talkingabout?
Because the weird thing was Idid see him outside the corner.
You know, I don't reallybelieve in that, you know, but I
saw him out the corner of myeye through the window at the
table, you know, just for asecond.
(40:50):
It was like maybe the day afteror something that he died.
My sisters and I, we went backto his place and we were hanging
out there.
And I went back, I think I wentback to work, you know, to
travel after a couple of days.
But, like, they hung out.
And every time I rang them up,they just kept staying there.
And even the day or two that Istayed there, like, I wish I
could have kept staying there.
It was so nice hanging out inhis house with my sisters.
Lo Carmen (41:12):
With his stuff.
Jim White (41:13):
With his stuff and the kind of, you know, the world
was sort of outside.
It was a really right.
It felt like important, youknow.
I think we would have stayedlonger.
But, you know, Mary startedtelling me, you should call it
off and do it.
She's close with death.
She knows about death.
She's got so much about it.
You know, and she was like,I'll just say this one little
bit of one story because she'sgot a lot of stories, but I'm
(41:34):
sure she'll talk to you.
But she was like, yeah, youknow, when my dad died, I was
there at the hospital and then Iwent back to where I was
staying and I just was lying inbed and I just felt his body
just go right through me.
And then they rang me up andthey told me he was dead, you
know.
And, you know, those storiesthat you hear, she feels that
kind of thing.
You know, whatever.
But yeah, and yes, I'm happy tosay, I'm quite comfortable to
(41:56):
say I don't believe in thatstuff.
And I'm also very
Lo Carmen (41:59):
happy...
Happy to say that you've hadsome strange experiences.
Jim White (42:02):
Yeah, and that when someone tells me a story like
that, I believe them.
Same.
You know, I don't, but...
Lo Carmen (42:07):
I haven't had any experiences like that myself,
but I've heard some otherstories and I totally believe
them.
Jim White (42:13):
Yes, I believe them, but I'm also happy to say that I
believe in that stuff, youknow, and I don't really find a
problem...
It doesn't make any sense, whatI'm saying, logically.
But, you know, it's good enoughfor me.
Lo Carmen (42:27):
I think I have a similar kind of belief
structure.
Jim's dad is not the onlyperson I've heard about that has
died while listening to musicthat they love or music that
they've pre-chosen to die to.
It's a surprisingly commonphenomenon and the idea of it
brings me a lot of comfort.
A dear music-loving friend ofmine, Mick, died many years ago,
(42:52):
and I was told he was listeningto It's a Wonderful World as he
went, which just seems like theperfect song to see you out the
door, if you know what I mean.
Another friend of mine, Danny,who was larger than life and a
fabulous performer, requestedhis friends put Vivaldi's Four
Seasons on and died just as itfinished.
(43:13):
How magnificent anddramatically beautiful is that?
Reddit, my favourite place onthe internet, is awash with
mysterious tales of connectionsbetween certain songs and a
person who has died, and thatsong spookily appearing out of
(43:34):
nowhere or coming on in asurprising, unexpected fashion
at a pertinent time.
things that don't really seemto make logical sense but that
feel very meaningful to theperson that's experiencing this
intimate connection with themusic and the one they loved.
Here's my former school teacherJane who was actually the very
(43:56):
first person that I went to foran interview.
I'll be sharing more of herstory in another episode but
Here she'd just been telling mehow her husband had been
spending a lot of time curatinga playlist of music that he
loved, and she later realisedall of the songs seemed to
reference death.
Jane Skinner (44:16):
It's very difficult to listen to.
Lo Carmen (44:19):
Is it a dark playlist?
Jane Skinner (44:20):
Well, no, it's great music.
I'll show you what's on it.
But it's kind of bizarre thathe did it like he knew somehow
without knowing.
That's what I thought.
Lo Carmen (44:33):
Right.
Jane Skinner (44:34):
I had a feeling that he knew somehow.
And I don't know whether heactually knew or whether he just
had a feeling that he was sick.
But it was very strange that hemade this particular thing.
It's spooky when you look atall the things on this playlist.
And the last track on it isTake Me to Church, which we were
(44:56):
listening to when he died.
Lo Carmen (44:57):
Seriously?
Jane Skinner (44:59):
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (45:03):
I can't imagine how emotional that was to
experience.
And here's an old familyfriend, Andrew, telling me about
the death of his brother aftera long illness.
All the family had gatheredtogether in the hospital room.
(45:25):
The tight group of brothers allhad a very strong connection to
each other through music,through sharing music, loving
music, talking about it, jokingabout it.
His brother had already plannedhis funeral playlist with
Andrew and one of his favouritesongs was 'Gimme Shelter'
Andrew Galpin (45:43):
So, you know, we all knew that, oh, David's gone
to hospital, right, OK, this isbig.
You know, the doctor said, youshould come in now.
And the weird thing for me withthat is...
When I've had that happen inthe past, and I've thought about
it and thought, what's this madrush to the hospital to go and
see them?
Is it for me, you know, to saymy goodbyes and things like
(46:07):
that?
And, oh, no, I now get it.
Lo Carmen (46:11):
What do you think?
Why?
Andrew Galpin (46:12):
We were there to help him, to go with him, you
know. To let him know that itwas all right. To be right by
his side, yep.
Yep, so.
Lo Carmen (46:21):
Yeah.
Andrew Galpin (46:21):
It was, yeah.
Lo Carmen (46:23):
Let him feel that you were letting him go.
Andrew Galpin (46:27):
Well, it was, yeah, a job to do too, you know,
to be there and stand alongsidehim, you know.
We were just in a hospital roomand we were just chatting away,
you know.
It's just it wasn't a big deal.
It wasn't, you know, David wasthere.
We were there.
And it was all, you know, howare you doing?
What are you doing nowadays?
(46:48):
You know, a bit of that andthat.
And I thought, I'll just putsome music on my iPhone.
And I thought, well, I'll justplay some Rolling Stones.
And, you know, I hardly everlisten to them, really.
But, yeah, so I just startedplaying some songs.
And I sent it in the hand basinthere so I would, you know,
give it some amplification.
And, you know, we're justchatting.
(47:08):
Tim's saying, oh, I don't,like, miss you.
It's just too disco.
And, oh, you know, it's takingthe piss, Tim.
You know, we're just having alaugh about it all.
And then...
We just noticed there was somemovement and mum had got up and
she was right by him holding hishand and Karen and Stacey were
on the other side and we'vegone, oh, right, okay, oh, shit,
(47:30):
we're here, this is it.
And I thought, I think I'lljust pull that music right down
for the moment and just let'sget a feel for what's going on.
And so I just hid it in mypocket and then I just turned it
right down.
And then I thought...
I might put that back on.
And I just pulled it out of mypocket and looked and went like
(47:51):
two clicks down and hit give meshelter.
Just started it up.
Quietly.
And I thought, I'll just see ifmum or, you know, if mum might
turn around.
Couldn't you turn that off or,you know, something.
And no one did.
And so I just kept tuning thevolume up and set it back in the
sink.
And, yeah.
Lo Carmen (48:13):
Yeah.
Andrew Galpin (48:13):
And he went listening to his favourite
music.
And the music, the lyricsaside, and David wouldn't have
paid much attention to thelyrics, it was the music side
that he would have loved aboutit.
And it's just got thatdrifting, floating, you know,
carry away kind of feel to it.
(48:35):
Yeah, like a bridge.
Yeah, yeah.
Lo Carmen (48:40):
A musical bridge.
Andrew Galpin (48:40):
To Valhalla.
Lo Carmen (48:42):
Yeah.
(49:27):
Turns out death is a prettygreat conversation starter.
We tend to learn reallyilluminating, intimate things
about each other when we havethese conversations.
I wasn't surprised to find thatperhaps a place where Jim and I
meet, apart from on the musicalplane, is in a kind of place of
(49:50):
acceptance of the world as itis.
and an understanding that theworld might be full of things
that we can't control, orsometimes even explain.
But the beat goes on, andthat's alright.
I'd like to share a selectionof words from the liner notes
(50:13):
that the artist Bill Callahanwrote for Jim's new solo album,
All Hits, Memories, on Drag CityRecords.
I'll leave a link to it in theshow notes and on my sub stack.
And you can also keep up withJim at jimwhitedrums.com.
Before humans, drums wereplaying.
These drums.
Genesis was a solo drum piece.
(50:35):
After humans, these drums.
This album.
Someone, the last man, is outin a spaceship at the end of
space.
He plays a single chord on asynth.
To set time free from its bind.
And then let's go.
This album sets time free.
(50:56):
A deft surgical operation.
Let's it fall in, let's itgraze, let's it remember.
This is a record of thoughts,memories, surgery.
A deft surgical operation.
You may not even realize it'shappening as it's happening.
Put your back on your feet whenit's over.
Memories refreshed.
Jim White (51:17):
What's that about?
Lo Carmen (51:18):
a I don't know, Jim.
The world is weird.
Jim White (51:21):
The world's weird.
Do you want to hear the songofftherecord? t
Lo Carmen (51:25):
r Yeah.
Jim White (51:25):
I'll play you that one
Lo Carmen (51:32):
Wow.
Thank you to Jim White forgoing deep with me on this
episode.
And thank you to Jim and DragCity Records for permission to
use selections from Jim's album.
All Hits Memories, nowavailable everywhere.
This conversation was recordedbefore his solo album was
(51:55):
released, but due to variousreasons beyond my control, it's
taken a while to get out intothe world to you.
Heartfelt thanks also to JaneSkinner, Andrew Galpin and Ray
Argyle for talking with me andfor sharing their stories.
Death Is Not The End wascreated, written, recorded and
(52:19):
edited by me, your host, LoCarmen, with additional sound
design and editing by AidanYoung.
The Death Is Not The End thememusic is written, performed and
recorded by Peter Head.
He also recorded versions ofTake Me To Church and It's A
(52:40):
Wonderful World for thisepisode.
Thank you so much to the estateof Rachel Cootes for permission
to use her composition, I AmDreaming of You.
The live excerpt of Sue's LastRide by The Dirty Three was from
a concert that I recorded atBeck's Festival Bar in Sydney,
(53:02):
Australia, 2004.
You can find my song GulwarBlue on the 2009 album It Walks
Like Love.
Thank you very much to EmmaSwift and Tiny Ghost Records for
permission to use her versionof Sad-Eyed Lady of the
Lowlands, originally recorded,of course, by Bob Dylan.
(53:23):
It's from her album Blonde onthe Tracks.
You're going to want to get onthat.
Thank you to Jimmy Dillon andhis band for permission to use
their live in Hawaii version ofGimme Shelter, originally
recorded, of course, by theRolling Stones.
Thanks to Peter Head, also forpermission to use his recordings
(53:48):
of Bon Scott singing his songs,Kerrigully and Round and Round.
extra incidental music thanksto the Moby Gratis Descript and
MuseOpen music libraries.
The repertoire on this podcastwas licensed by APRA AMCOS.
If you'd like to talk aboutanything you've heard on this
(54:12):
episode today or you've hadstories that you'd like to
share, I'd love to hear from youat lowcarmen.sobstack.com.
You can come find me there.
You can also rate, review,follow and all of that at any of
your podcast providers and Iwould surely appreciate that.
(54:33):
You've been listening to DeathIs Not The End, a Black
Tambourine Productionsproduction.
Thank you for being here andsee you on the other side.
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