July 27, 2025 • 61 mins
Ever fantasized about leaving America's polarized politics for New Zealand's pristine landscapes? Before you pack your bags for Middle Earth, listen to the unfiltered truth from two expats who took the leap without ever visiting first.
My husband, Pavel, returns and we chat with our friends Alex and Andy, who each moved to New Zealand, and reveal what actually happens when you trade global chaos for Kiwi calm. Their stories expose surprising realities about life in New Zealand – from the genuine shock of walking out of a hospital without paying a cent to the refreshingly straightforward tax system that eliminates the annual stress of filing returns. The conversation tackles everything from employment security and distinctive Kiwi communication styles to the significant challenges of being a 30+ hour flight away from family emergencies.
Beyond the stunning scenery that captured Peter Jackson's imagination lies a functioning democracy where innovative engineering thrives in isolation. The "figure it out" mentality has created a culture that values practical problem-solving over specialization, while also embracing a more relaxed attitude toward perfectionism. Want a perfectly manicured lawn? New Zealanders couldn't care less.
But it's not all smooth sailing in this distant paradise. Alex and Andy candidly address the reality of being on "an island at the bottom of the Pacific" – the reduced availability of international products (particularly Mexican food), the higher-than-expected cost of living, and the genuine isolation that comes with this geographic remoteness.
Whether you're seriously considering a move abroad or just curious about alternative living arrangements in uncertain times, this episode offers practical insights and unexpected perspectives on finding your place in a country that values calm over chaos and community over culture wars.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Shawn (01:01):
Welcome to Leaving America, the podcast where we
ask big questions about newbeginnings, second chances and
what it really means to startover somewhere else.
Last week we introduced you tosome English-speaking countries
that are great options if you'relooking to move abroad.
Among them was New Zealand.
For years, new Zealand hashovered near the top of every
(01:23):
where should I move list,especially for those
disillusioned by politicalpolarization, economic stability
or just the general noise ofAmerican life.
It's small, it's quiet, it'sgreen and, yes, they filmed the
Lord of the Rings there.
But under the surface, newZealand is more than just Middle
Earth.
It's a sovereign nation withstrict immigration rules, a
(01:46):
delicate housing market and astrong sense of national
identity.
That takes some real work toearn your place in.
So in today's episode, myhusband Pavel returns and we're
going to be talking to two ofour friends that made the move
to New Zealand, one from theUnited States and one from
Luxembourg, about their move,what surprised them about New
(02:06):
Zealand, how they've settled inand why they probably wouldn't
consider leaving.
Hey, pavel, welcome back.
Hi, Shawn, happy birthday week.
Pavel (02:17):
Oh, thank you.
Shawn (02:19):
How does it feel to be in your 30s now?
Pavel (02:22):
It feels great.
It feels like I have all thisenergy.
Shawn (02:26):
It feels like I'm on top of the world Feels like Benjamin
Button going back in time.
Pavel (02:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great.
I'm not gonna lie about havingan absolutely great 30s of my
life in the country that we'regoing to be talking about today.
Shawn (02:45):
Yep, new Zealand, which is where we met and it's where
you met the people, our friendsthat we interviewed for this
episode Alex and Andy.
You met them both at work right.
Pavel (02:58):
Yeah, I met Alex and Andy for work and Andy was actually
my lead on the very firstproject where I had to design a
desk for a private jet.
Shawn (03:12):
A what?
Pavel (03:13):
A desk.
Shawn (03:14):
Oh.
Andy (03:16):
Yeah.
Pavel (03:18):
It was probably the least exciting thing on that airplane
, but that desk had to fitsomething Apple related.
Like some device, it was asmall desk but it had a chair.
Shawn (03:35):
Was the chair fixed in place?
Yes, we haven't been back toNew Zealand since when were we
last there?
2019, just before COVID ohright, that's right, right
before COVID, because it wasthat December, yep, and we're
going back this December for themonth.
What are you most lookingforward to?
Pavel (03:57):
Well, I look forward to see Alex and Andy in person.
Yeah, and I look forward tovisiting some of my favorite
places.
And I look forward to visitingsome of my favorite places and I
look forward to seeing someother wonderful friends that I
was lucky to make in Auckland,new, zealand, over the years
(04:20):
that I lived there but, like alot of them, don't live in
Auckland anymore.
I know that's what's going tomake it a little bit difficult
but at the same time it willprovide more opportunities for
us to travel Right yeah To seethe Taspin sea and the ocean and
(04:41):
hopefully visit Queenstown andsee the Glenorchy with Mount
Ernst Law and just all thesescenic places.
We have to start planning that.
Shawn (04:56):
Oh yeah, we're your hosts , pavel and Shawn, and if your
idea of a better life includesgeothermal spas, functioning
health care, conservation andpolitical restraint, you're
absolutely in the right place Tostay updated on the latest
episodes.
Follow, like and share.
Leaving America on the DeepDive with Shawn podcast feed.
(05:18):
Wherever you get your podcasts,podcasts.
And if you've relocated toAotearoa and can finally sleep
without checking the news at 2am, or if you just want to know
how to pronounce Whangarei orWhakapapa, we want to hear from
you.
Email us at deepdivewithshawnat gmailcom.
Pavel (05:37):
Okay, let's pack your bags.
It's time to see some kiwibirds and kiwis and lots of
sunscreen, because the sun isquite brutal in New Zealand.
This is Living America.
Shawn (05:56):
Alex, Andy, thanks for being here.
How are you?
Alex (05:59):
Yeah, we're good.
Good, it's a nice wet sunny.
Andy (06:05):
No, it's not sunny nice, wet, sunny, cloudy, dark do you
know where you?
Shawn (06:12):
are no, but you're.
You're in new zealand, soyou're heading into your winter
as we're heading into our summer.
Alex (06:19):
Yeah yep, that's right was the, the summer nice, the
summer was good, very hot.
Andy (06:26):
Very dry.
Alex (06:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andy always tries to grow someveggies every year, and I think
this year was a little bit toughto keep things alive.
But the chilies are still going, so that's good.
But no luck with any tomatoesor anything like that, so we'll
have to try again next year.
Pavel (06:45):
What do you mean?
The chillies are still growing.
They're still growing, yeah,they're still on little plants.
Alex (06:51):
You have to go get some.
Andy (06:52):
Yeah, I think there are probably 30 of them out there
that are just bright red.
Alex (06:56):
Yeah.
Andy (06:57):
I need to pick today.
Alex (07:00):
And then you may go and make some chili sauce after that
.
It's a little side hustle.
Shawn (07:06):
When I first started growing things, I found that I
would grow, I would get reallyinto the things that would take
off like cucumbers or whatever.
And then I realized, like Idon't actually really like
cucumbers, it's just that theyjust grow like a weed.
We did that with bok choy.
Alex (07:21):
Bok choy grows great here I hate bok choy.
What else can we make out of it?
Shawn (07:29):
like soup, or let's start here.
Maybe you can tell us whereyou're from, but also why you
chose to move away and why youchose new zealand yeah, yeah for
sure.
Alex (07:39):
Um, so probably from my accent you can tell that I'm not
from anywhere that reallysomeone can decipher.
But yeah, I'm originally fromLuxembourg.
But you know, growing up we'vekind of moved all over the place
really with my parents for mydad's work and stuff, so hence
why my accent probably haspicked up on various places.
(08:01):
But yeah, I came to New Zealandpretty much a long time ago now
but for my studies basically,and I wanted to, you know, study
abroad, and at the time myparents were living in the
Philippines and I think theywere thinking of moving to
Thailand in a couple of yearsafter that.
So I figured, you know, newZealand is not the furthest away
(08:24):
from there.
My other options, I think,would have been Canada or
England, but I just kind ofwanted to try something new and
different.
And why not?
And definitely not Australia,because they have crocodiles and
snakes and spiders over there.
So New Zealand was a lot betterwith little kiwi birds,
(08:46):
harmless kiwi birds.
Pavel (08:48):
And have you ever been to New Zealand before?
Alex (08:51):
No, no, never.
It was kind of.
You know, I've heard goodthings about it.
I've had a couple of teachersand friends in my high school
that were from New Zealand andyou know they've only ever raved
about it.
I even played touch rugby inhigh school because of one of my
coaches was from New Zealand.
So you know, I kind of got alittle bit of hints of the
culture and what they do here.
(09:11):
A course called mechatronics Ithought you know, I wanted to do
engineering, but I didn't knowexactly what I wanted to do.
So mechatronics was a good youknow thing mix of mechanical,
electrical and software.
So I thought that was going tobe quite neat.
So yeah, that's.
So.
I came here just with a 23 kilosuitcase and figured it out you
(09:33):
know, I um so I've interviewedlike 20 experts and expats.
Shawn (09:38):
They all say you should always visit a place first
before you move there.
Alex (09:43):
Yeah, you're telling all the listeners that that is uh.
Shawn (09:45):
There are other routes to go here yeah, I think I mean it
was.
Alex (09:48):
It was the same for andy.
You actually also came herewithout being here before yeah
um both of us just were.
Inspired well.
Andy (10:00):
So I I grew up in arkansas , went to university in arkansas
.
When I was doing that I got anengineer as well.
I got a job as an intern at aplace that did aircraft work
interiors of aircraft and thengot hired on after college and
(10:22):
then after a while, if you're inthat line of work, you end up
in Seattle.
So I moved to Seattle doing thesame kind of stuff.
I was there for five years andthen found that there was a
place in New Zealand doing thesame thing and they were looking
for exactly what I did.
So I met the guys.
(10:43):
They came to Seattle quiteoften for to work with Boeing on
things.
I met him up there, hit it offreally well.
At the same time I had beenreally getting into fly to the
Concords and I'm big music fan,big comedy fan.
So you know that particularband hit home with me real quite
(11:07):
a bit.
But interviewed with the guysup in seattle, they said, um,
you know, we'll be in touch.
And then maybe a month or twolater they came back and made me
an offer and I had never.
I'd traveled out of the us abit, but nothing like huge.
I'd been to j, I'd been toMexico and you know, the
Caribbean and all that, justkind of decided like why not?
Alex (11:31):
I mean, I had what are you going to lose?
Andy (11:33):
Yeah.
So I moved straight toChristchurch right exactly when
the earthquake started and thenmoved up to Auckland about a
year after that with the samejob, and I've been in Auckland
ever since.
So, it was a totally blind, youknow, coming in blind.
(11:54):
I was not really intoChristchurch.
Besides the shaking, it wasjust kind of a it's a bit slower
pace and you know not a lot ofpeople wanted to socialize Not
that I'm a big socialite, knownot a lot of people wanted to
socialize not that I'm a bigsocialite but a lot of people
wanted to socialize therebecause of the earthquakes and
everyone was pretty stressed out.
But then I moved to Aucklandand it was a lot like Seattle,
(12:16):
but warmer and safer and justnicer in general, and haven't
even thought about leaving.
Really it's been good.
Alex (12:27):
I moved here 2009, and then you moved here 2010 by
Garcia Christchurch first, yeah.
Pavel (12:34):
Maybe because New Zealand is so far away.
That's why you know, if some ofyour experts are Shawn saying
that you should visit thecountry before moving there.
With New Zealand, it will be alittle pricey to go to visit and
go back and then like, oh yeah.
Andy (12:53):
Yeah, I mean before, probably 2005 or 2006,.
I had never even thought aboutNew Zealand, really Didn't
really come up in my life at all.
Shawn (13:04):
A lot of people say about New Zealand and Pablo, you've
said this as well that it can ina way feel like you're on an
island.
I mean, I guess you are right,but it's a gigantic, there are
two gigantic islands, right thatit can kind of give you island
fever or cabin fever.
Do you guys experience that?
Alex (13:20):
I mean I think about it all the time because you know I
work at, you know the regional Imean the national airline at
the moment and you know to justgo to a different country you
have to fly at least three hourspretty much.
You know, especially comingfrom Europe where you just drive
anywhere.
You know half an hour you're inFrance where half an hour
(13:44):
you're in France Growing up wewould just go to the Belgian
coast for lunch, sometimes onthe weekends, just because we
wanted mussel and fries, and sothe concept of having to go onto
a plane just to go to adifferent country is quite
different, like a differentmentality for me.
Andy (14:01):
I've got a globe, a relatively old globe, but I had
it situated to where you couldjust see new zealand and then
it's just you know, oceaneverywhere around it.
I had to move it because it wasfreaking me out like I'm so far
away from everything down here.
Uh, just, you kind of want toput on the blinders and just say
(14:22):
, like this is, this is theworld that I live in.
Alex (14:25):
I don't have to, I don't want to think too much about how
far away I am from everythingin the all in that sense has
also been a blessing, becauseyou know you seem to be a little
bit in your bubble here.
You know you can easily shutoff the rest of the world,
whether it's a good or bad thing.
Andy (14:40):
But I think it's pretty good.
Usually it's a good thing.
Alex (14:43):
You know, same with even.
You know covid and things likethat.
You know, always a little bitlate to get everything here.
Uh, you know, including movies.
You know movies that have beenout in the cinemas everywhere
else.
Uh, come out here a bit later,but it's all right.
Shawn (14:59):
Yeah, it's easy, easy living, very laid back and we've
really enjoyed it when youmoved out there, did you intend
to stay out there as long as youdid?
Alex, you said that you hadjust brought essentially one bag
, which I guess, like if you'remaking a move, that big air
travel to get there, you'reprobably, unless you're, you
know, taking a shippingcontainer, you're taking a small
amount of your things and Iguess my circumstances were a
(15:21):
little bit different because Ididn't really have anything of
my own at that time.
Alex (15:27):
You know I was still living with my folks and
everything.
So it was fairly easy from thatsense that, you know, I just
grabbed all my belongings, youknow, clothes, especially
depending on whatever the seasonwas, and then the rest, you
know I could live in studentaccommodation and everything,
and so they have a good supportnetwork.
(15:48):
So it was actually really easyin that sense to set yourself up
.
You know it's different.
I guess if you're working andyou have things and cats and
things like that, you know tomove.
Andy (16:03):
For me.
I was really lucky because Ihad the job in the job moved me
down here, so they, they movedall whatever I wanted to pack
into a container.
But I also had a partner at thetime who was did all the work,
really organizing it all andfiguring out because I had to
come down here and start work.
(16:23):
So that was all sort of out ofmy hands mainly, like I didn't,
I didn't.
Like I said, I was very, verylucky to just have a lot of help
from my partner and the jobmoving me doing all the
complicated stuff we did.
We had two cats and they bothwanted to come down too.
(16:45):
So we, we, uh, organized thatand that was probably the the
hardest thing, because I washere for like six months just me
, uh.
And then the cats turned up butthey had to go into quarantine
I can't even remember how longit was, but it seemed like ages.
So I'd go out and visit thecats and come back home without
the cats.
Alex (17:04):
It was kind of kind of hard like I think they also had
to do lots of vaccinations andshots yeah travel thing, because
you know New Zealand is sostrict with biosecurity and
things like that, you know,which is also a good thing
because we have so many nativeanimals and plants and things
here, but but again, I was luckyI didn't, I didn't have to do
(17:27):
that myself, that was taken careof, yeah.
Andy (17:30):
So it was kind of a hospital, not hospital pass.
What's the opposite of ahospital pass, a pass for me?
I just I just came down, I justturned up and then finding a
house and everything.
Alex (17:41):
How was that that?
Andy (17:42):
That was not too hard really.
In Christchurch it was prettyeasy to find a place.
Shawn (17:47):
Abel, you've made the move twice internationally, and
I think both times you did.
You also just went with acouple bags, right?
Pavel (17:55):
Yeah, just like Alex.
When I moved to New Zealand Ialso didn't have that much, so
it was not that dramatic ortraumatic.
Yeah, so most important clothesfit in one suitcase, and I
think there was one more kind oflike a duffel bag, which which
was enough you have everythingyou need here as well.
Alex (18:18):
You know, it's not like we're going to a, you know, a
country that doesn't have allthe right amenities and
everything like that.
But that does remind me of afunny story, because I did move
to the Netherlands.
Um, as well, I live there for abit and, um, you know, the
Dutch people don't know what itis in their water or how much
(18:38):
milk they drink, but they're allvery tall people and me being
relatively average, maybe on theshorter side, um, things didn't
quite fit me.
I had to buy.
I could buy children's stuff,which was great because it was a
bit cheaper and everything.
But you know, even the benchtopheight in the kitchen was
higher.
You know, the toilet is higher,everything is higher, like in
(19:01):
the mirror in the bathroom of myapartment I could only see this
part of my face, becauseeverything is generally higher.
I thought that was pretty funny.
But again, I could still findthings.
Shawn (19:11):
I just had to look around a little bit more yeah so I'm
guessing, when you first movedthere, your intent was not to
stay there maybe as long as youhave, I guess.
I'm wondering how that cameabout and if you plan on staying
there kind of in perpetuity orif you're thinking about maybe
going somewhere else.
Alex (19:30):
Yeah, I guess for me it was the studies.
So you know, it had a timelinethere, but then I really enjoyed
it and then I decided to alsodo further studies and
everything and then actuallyfinding a work.
I thought would be quite goodto at least have that under my
belt before I even went anywhereelse.
And so the good thing we knowwith the university, they have
(19:52):
career fairs and everything, andso then I found altitude pretty
much from the careers fair.
Paavo, I don't know Jamie Lamb,he, he was there, so he gave me
his card and everything, and so, yes, I started working there
straight after university.
And now, you know, after acouple of years, you know me and
(20:15):
Andy, we've met and we set up,you know, a life here.
Now We've got more cats andeverything.
We have a house.
So I don't know, I don't thinkwe're thinking of leaving
anytime soon, but who knows?
Andy (20:30):
I think mainly it comes up when when we say maybe we
should leave is because we're intraffic.
We're like this fucking trafficlanguage oh, is this?
No, this is for kids, oh okay,Listen, kids.
Pavel (20:45):
the traffic here is terrible sometimes yeah but it's
not any better here.
No, it's not, and that's thething.
Alex (20:53):
Yeah, you know in relative terms what are we really?
Complaining about yeah.
Pavel (20:58):
I mean, you have more narrow streets and you don't
have the rules.
I, I think I don't think youhave rules in auckland that
every house has to have like aparking, dedicated parking spot,
right, so everyone is justparks on the road, yeah, right
yeah, yeah so that's the and Ithink I guess the popular,
(21:19):
especially in auckland.
Alex (21:20):
I probably cannot speak for the rest of the country, but
you know the population isincreasing quite exponentially
because this is also where allthe jobs are and it's very
international and everything.
So I do feel like the maybecity planning or road planning
here isn't quite theinfrastructure isn't quite set
up for maybe that many peopleLike.
(21:42):
To be honest, during duringcovid, it was a breeze driving
around, there was a few peopleout and everything worked and
we're like, I think this is whatit was supposed to be for.
Um and now, yeah, just you know,especially during peak traffic
and whatnot, it's quite annoyingreally to get around.
But you know, we take the busas much as we can.
You know if we, if we do wantto go out for dinner or whatnot.
(22:04):
You know, and oftentimes youknow, we live in an area where,
just around the corner, we haveall the shops and the cafes and
sometimes we've spent most ofthe weekend not even using the
car, which is quite nice.
We just try to walk everywhere.
Andy (22:18):
I was in Bangalore, india, earlier this year and there are
no rules and it actually flowedpretty good with zero rules
complete anarchy on the streets,cars everywhere, everything
always moving.
Shawn (22:35):
It was amazing that's how I felt in rome, too.
I was like it felt like therewere no rules at all to the
driving but like it, it workedreally well yeah it was like
kind of like ants or like birdslike it just somehow worked but
so, alex, you made me thinkabout something when you said
you know everything's kind of inAuckland, and I think there is.
I don't know if this is achallenge or maybe you know like
(22:57):
a curse or a blessing insmaller countries, but it is
absolutely true that in Aucklandand I guess, when I say this as
a challenge, I don't know ifthere's like an urban planning
challenge or you know if this issomething that will become a
problem but in new zealand mostof urban life really revolves
around auckland to some degree,wellington, if you're like
(23:18):
working for government or christchurch, but the rest of the
country is quiet and I don'twant to say undeveloped, because
it's not like that, but it is.
it definitely is a rural vibethat you don't experience in the
same way in larger countries, Ithink yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Alex (23:33):
And I think yeah, obviously depending on the job,
because of course I don't wantto be commuting that much either
.
I always think, you know, itwould be quite nice sometimes to
live rurally fresh air andeverything.
He's not so much of a fanbecause he grew up rural, so I
think he prefers the city lifenow.
But I just couldn't do thecommutes.
You know I don't want to bewasting my time in a car or on,
(23:57):
you know, public transport.
If it's there, I'd rather justbe closer to work and get that
over with and everything.
So I think where we got ourhouse is a really sweet spot.
You know it's close enough toeverything.
Shawn (24:10):
Are you familiar with the Green Bay Blackhouse Bay area?
Alex (24:14):
Yeah, it's kind of across the other side of the freeway
here it's like the west, Ihaven't been there too much.
Yeah, I think the most we'vedone on that side is to visit
Pavel back in the day.
Shawn (24:27):
Do you consider a place like that to be not urban enough
?
Alex (24:31):
I think the main thing we like is having a little hustling
and bustling like town center,let's say that we can go to
walking where they have cafesand little cute shops and things
like that, not that we go outall the time or anything, but
just having that there andhaving a little bit of an
atmosphere.
We used to live in ponsonby, um,I'm not sure if you're familiar
(24:55):
with that area, but it's kindof more boutique shops and it
has a few pubs and restaurantsand there was always something
going on and it was quite neatto be able to just walk
everywhere and just go, even ifwe just walk up and down the
street.
You know, go for a long onehour walk or whatnot?
Just people watching and watchthe street.
You know, go for a long onehour walk, or whatnot?
Just people watching and watchthe world go by and everything.
(25:17):
We quite enjoyed that.
So I think maybe if we were inblockhouse bay or something I
don't know if there is a similarsort of little town center or
something like that, um, but youknow, just having to hop in a
car to go anywhere really is notreally something that we would
like that much, which is why wechose where we were.
Shawn (25:38):
You just want to know that if you die, it's going to
take somebody less than a monthto find your body.
Alex (25:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andy (25:45):
That's the main goal, yeah .
Shawn (25:47):
I think this is probably I don't know, I don't know if
this is an American thing, but Ithink that, like in the Western
world, when we move to otherplaces that are considered part
of the Western world, so like ifan American moves to Canada or
moves to like Australia or NewZealand, even maybe to Europe,
we kind of take for granted thatbecause we share so much
similarity in the way that westructure our lives that you
(26:11):
wouldn't experience cultureshock.
But I know, even going toCanada, there are things that
I'm, you know, a little bitsurprised by, or at least used
to be a little bit surprised by,and that's just an hour and a
half away from us.
What kind of culture shock didyou experience coming from, I
guess, the places that you camefrom into New Zealand?
Andy (26:29):
I think I would probably.
The first thing that comes tomind is the lack of Mexican food
.
That was that was disturbing.
And there's also very littleGreek food, but people don't
complain about that.
Alex (26:44):
But it is very international and that's again,
you know, not saying that muchyou know for maybe for the rest
of the country, but definitelyin Auckland Very international.
You walk out the door and youdon't really know where you are
sometimes because you see peoplefrom all sorts of parts of the
world and so we do have aplethora of different types of
(27:04):
restaurants around, even thingslike a Filipino restaurant that
I wouldn't have seen anywhereelse in the world, really,
except the Philippines for thePhilippines, except the
Philippines.
And here, I guess, so I thoughtthat's always very neat.
I thought it was real fungetting used to the slang and
eventually being able to discerndifferent versions of the New
(27:29):
Zealand accent depending onsouth or north island yeah, I
think I finally I mean my someof my friends might murder me,
but I finally started to see thedifferences also between
australian and australian yeahyeah I always thought the kiwi
accent was much more difficultfor me to understand than the
(27:50):
australian yeah, I don't know
Andy (27:55):
sometimes the australian accent is so twangy and strong
that it's almost southern us.
It's almost like an arkansasaccent for me.
Shawn (28:06):
Really get going I was legit in some circumstances in
new zealand where I was like Iam so sorry, what?
Alex (28:12):
and then I have to say it three or four times, I still
don't understand what you'resaying.
Andy (28:16):
That happens to me once a week probably.
What?
Alex (28:21):
Do you speak English?
Andy (28:24):
Or a lot of people don't understand what I'm saying
because they're not expecting anAmerican accent and so they
have to calculate what is itthat this person just accent,
and so you know they have to,like, calculate.
What is it that this personjust said?
Alex (28:36):
And you mumble.
Shawn (28:41):
It's not your accent, you're just a mumbler.
Pavel (28:49):
It was very clear to me that you were American when I
started at Altitude.
That's because I was wearing myAmerican flag suit and you're
the only one I could actuallyunderstand, because for the
first few months or the firstweek when I was in the first
team meeting, I was so stressedout because I could not
(29:11):
understand anything.
Everybody was saying,especially with like slang or
like you know oh, that's mean,I'm like what, who's mean?
Shawn (29:19):
yeah, yeah, yeah I remember the first time I heard
that like you know something as,and I was like as what?
Alex (29:30):
yeah, like, this is lazy or or or s a s s sweet ass yes,
yeah, I just walked aroundthanking everyone.
Shawn (29:38):
Oh, thank you, yeah, yeah I don't get that really as much
in the states there's acomedian here.
Andy (29:46):
I'm gonna butcher what exactly he said, but his name's
Guy Montgomery and he has thisstory.
Or he tells the story about how, growing up as a Kiwi, you hear
a British accent and you thinkthat's going to be an
educational, authoritative thing, and you hear an American
(30:07):
accent and you think that'sgoing to be entertainment, like
a joke or a movie star thing.
That you're going to be aentertainment like a joke or a
like movie star thing thatyou're gonna.
The information that you'regetting is either going to be
instructional or entertainment,depending on which accent it is
oh, that's a very interestingthought.
Pavel (30:26):
I never thought about it.
That is true, and the peoplewith british accent like, oh,
these are very cultural, yeahthis guy knows what he's talking
about yeah what did you think,posh, having lived in russia?
Shawn (30:40):
what kind of culture shock do you think you
experienced in new zealand?
Pavel (30:45):
I think people were less politically correct oh yeah
because in the us, like you know, you cannot say so many things
or cannot joke about so manythings.
So yeah, in in new zealand whenI worked, like oh, I'm like, oh
boy, those people swear andyeah, that's true but it was at
(31:09):
the same time it was.
It didn't feel aggressive or Ididn't feel too uncomfortable
about it.
But when I moved to the US andstarted working in a major
corporation, I became very close.
I wasn't comfortable withjoking with people, I was
(31:34):
filtering a lot more and it waskind of very sad in a way.
Only recently I started to be alittle bit more joking around
and stuff.
But yeah, it's just a much morelimited culture but it's the
most free, more limited, youknow, culture yeah.
Andy (31:54):
But it's the most free country in the world Exactly.
Pavel (31:59):
And yeah, that's the dream that is falling apart.
Andy (32:02):
I had very similar reactions when we would have a
meeting with this major aircraftmanufacturer that's based in
the US.
With this major aircraftmanufacturer that's based in the
US, we'd have, you know, theguys over from Seattle or
whatever, for instance, and theKiwis would be asking them
(32:24):
questions about, like theelection, and you know this
person who's somehow won theelection.
And I'm like guys, we don't talkabout these things in in work
in work things you like, youcan't you can't do it because
you don't know what that otherperson is thinking yeah, but
(32:45):
even things like you know on theradio here people swear yeah,
true you know, oh yeah and thetv station is like the, the uh
nz1, what's it?
Called tv nz, tv nz like theyshow full-blown uh, you know
foul language and adultsituations that you'd never see
on nbc that's why I have acorntv.
Shawn (33:08):
I'm looking for the swearing and the nudity.
I am actually kind of surprised, though it seems like almost
every country except the UnitedStates you can readily hear like
fuck dropped into a TV to a TVshow.
This is a good point to bringup because I did notice, just
traveling in general, notspecific to you know, being in
(33:31):
New Zealand but I did becomeaware of how much our American
experience has informed how wethink about not just what is
politically correct or what isappropriate, but that we project
that onto other places as well.
In New Zealand sometimes Itruly was people just seemed a
little bit more raw and theywould talk about things you know
(33:51):
, as you're saying, that I wouldnever and I would find myself
being like you can't.
Alex (33:57):
You can't say that.
Andy (33:59):
Yes, I travel to the US a couple of times a year with work
people to do work things andwith the younger guys I have to
tell them like hey, you gottadial back the cursing and stuff,
because these people are uhfucking insane.
Shawn (34:18):
They will turn on you very fast, too sensitive yeah,
maybe what are some of thethings that you maybe weren't
expecting but were pleasantsurprises or that you found to
be really rewarding living inanother country, specifically
New Zealand?
Andy (34:33):
I actually thought about this one quite a bit, the thing
that I mean it took probably 12,13 years, but I eventually
needed to go to the hospital andstay overnight.
Citizen Remote Ad (34:48):
And it was like I'm fine, don't worry, Give
us all the details.
Andy (34:51):
I'm fine, don't worry.
But I went in.
I always knew like, yes, it'ssocialized health care and I
know that my taxes are very high.
But you know, I hadn't actuallygone through the process.
So I go to my GP.
He says you need to go to thehospital now.
And so I go to my GP.
(35:14):
He says you need to go to thehospital now.
And so I go to the hospital.
I was sitting there maybe 45minutes and they ushered me into
an area with a bed.
They did the things they neededto do.
I got up the next morning theychecked me out.
They're like yeah, you're allright, you can go home.
And so I got all my stuff and Iwas walking out and I was like,
okay, where do I pay?
Are you just going to send methe bill?
(35:35):
Like how does that work?
And they looked at me like whatthe hell are you talking?
Citizen Remote Ad (35:39):
about.
Andy (35:39):
Go home.
You're done, this is it.
Get better, you don't pay, justget better, Like okay, it's
amazing.
Alex (35:47):
You're mentally preparing for 15,000.
Yeah.
Andy (35:52):
So you don't have to you know if you're sick, you don't
have to go broke and like, startthis terrible chain of events
that leads you to be in bigtrouble financially.
You just go in, they treat youand you go home.
Alex (36:05):
They even validate your parking free parking.
Andy (36:08):
That's true.
That's the thing that she's themost.
Yeah Cause I cause I?
Because I went in to give himan overnight bag.
And to laugh at me.
Alex (36:16):
And yeah, no, but you know , I had to pay for parking and
then I left, which is fine, andI'm like oh, you better check,
because your car is going to bethere for all night and
everything.
There must be a limit, probably.
But then he said no, theyvalidated it, Not his fault of
course for being there, so itwas quite surprising pleasantly.
Andy (36:37):
The other thing I think is I think you would agree the
engineering field here they'reisolated and they're used to
making things work and figuringthings out themselves.
Things work and figuring thingsout themselves and, like you,
see huge major player companieslike, uh, rocket lab because of
(36:59):
that.
But they, they are real scrappy, they, they have a very broad
knowledge base of how to doeverything.
I see it every day in my job,yeah the guys in my figure it
out where I work are like I I'mlike how do you know all this?
but they just absorb everythingand and can just, are willing to
(37:20):
try whatever.
Like it's quite impressive thethe sort of um gung-ho attitude
of like let's figure it out.
Alex (37:29):
Yeah, it's a lot yeah, because I guess you don't have
all the resources necessarily atyour fingertips.
Andy (37:34):
We can't hire a guy in a week to do this thing.
We'll just figure it out.
Shawn (37:40):
There is something to this just figure it out thing
which I also think comes frombeing on an island, kind of the
middle, well, the bottom of thePacific right and having limited
access to a lot of things.
But I noticed this when I wasin New Zealand as well.
But I noticed this when I wasin New Zealand as well.
I've noticed this when I was inHawaii as well, and there's
almost a romanticism to it whichI think we used to have in the
United States and we used tovalue that, which is make
(38:03):
something last as long as youcan and continue to fix it.
And however you got to fix itto make it work, you do that and
we kind of respected that.
And I think somewhere along theline we became so commodified
that we almost became somethingto scorn, like if somebody had
an old car, that they were justyou know they would continue to
fix so that it would run becamesomething to judge and so like
why not?
(38:23):
get a new car and there wassomething being in New Zealand
seeing that lifestyle.
It's not.
It's not a lesser lifestyle.
It just seems like there'sstill a certain amount of
respect and dignity in figuringout how to make things work that
we seem to have lost in theStates.
Alex (38:37):
Yeah, no, I think, yeah, yeah, I feel like that as well.
You don't have to always buynew anything.
Make something last.
Pavel (38:45):
Your yard doesn't have to be perfect as well, right,
right?
Alex (38:49):
it's a work in progress yeah everything is a work in
progress.
It will never be done.
Pavel (38:56):
Yeah, because here sometimes it's like a pure, like
neighborhood pressure, likesomebody's having like all this
uh, perfectly manicured lawnsand everything.
And here's our little, you know, dry patch of grass.
Alex (39:14):
Yeah, and I like that, yeah, I like that natural aspect
.
Pavel (39:21):
You know it's, it's clean , it's like orderly, it's not.
You know, green picture perfect, but you know it's, it's, it's
comfortable, it's natural.
Andy (39:32):
I lived in this house in Fayetteville and Arkansas for
maybe six months or so.
The reason I left was becausethe guy who owned the house he
was a travel nurse and he wassomewhere else, so we were
renting this house from him.
It had a magnolia tree in thefront and he was very, very
(39:55):
strict about you got to pick upthe leaves from the magnolia
tree when they fall and I waslike, yeah, whatever, cool, yeah
sure, and then I would getcalls from him about the tree.
So he had some like snitch treesnitch in the neighborhood
saying that we weren't pickingup the the leaves on the tree.
Pavel (40:15):
And we have a magnolia tree out in our berm here and I
just let the leaves fall, man,yeah it's not that bad that guy
can't hurt me anymore yeah, no,but when they flower, yeah, when
they just flower for like a dayor two and then everything
drops and it's like it goes likeone day it's the most beautiful
(40:37):
thing on the planet and thenext day it's the ugliest thing
you've ever seen I will say thisone doesn't seem to lose its
leaves.
Andy (40:45):
Yeah, this one's actually pretty nice.
Alex (40:47):
He's got lots of little flowers randomly.
I don't know when he's supposedto be blooming, but he's been
pretty good yeah.
Shawn (40:55):
He's also got a gender, nigel.
Let's talk about taxes a littlebit.
We don't have to go into toomany specifics, but the United
States is one of just a handfulI think it might be just one of
two countries the other beingEritrea on the planet that has a
universal tax on its citizens,but there are thresholds to like
(41:16):
an income and there are certainways that you can.
Reciprocal taxes can becanceled, but I'm just wondering
how you found the tax situation, being an American citizen and
also, you know, earning anincome in New Zealand.
Andy (41:29):
First of all those damn Eritreans.
I know I can't believe it.
So what is the tax rate for um?
33 percent 33, 30, I try not tothink about it it's um it's
bracketed.
Alex (41:46):
So yeah, so from from zero .
If you earn from zero to thisamount, it's this percentage
percentage.
And then it kind of bracketed.
So not the whole thing is thehigher amount if you earn well,
but it's all kind of automaticLike they take it out of your
pay slip every time it's calledpay as you earn.
Andy (42:06):
It's really good because they make you not think about it
very much, because you don'thave to do a tax return every
year.
You don't have to figure outlike where are my receipts?
Unless you're a business, youknow you're as a regular person,
it's just all taken care of.
They know how much tax you owe.
You don't have to tell them andthen they actually already know
(42:31):
and they're like aha, we gotyou.
We actually know it's this muchthat you.
That whole stupid process inthe us doesn't happen here.
They just know how much you owebecause they know how much you
make.
It blows my mind now that youhave to do so much stressful
work to you know.
Here's what I think I made andhere's what I think I made and
(42:53):
here's what I think I owe.
Please don't throw me in jail.
Shawn (42:57):
We should put a fine point on that.
What you're saying is you don'tfile a tax return in New
Zealand for the country of NewZealand.
They take care of all that foryou and you never really even
see that process.
Andy (43:07):
Yeah, yeah, you, it is um.
If you for some reason workedovertime or if you took time off
without pay, they adjust itbecause they know what you made.
Alex (43:18):
I think maybe once a year, I kind of remember they might
just send you a thing to confirmLike, hey, we think that you
may have overpaid because ofthis, and that.
Here's a credit note or theother way, but it's never heaps
or anything, and it is inunusual circumstances when you
have like odd overtimes orsomething that is not the usual
(43:40):
process.
Citizen Remote Ad (43:42):
But again, it's very easy.
Alex (43:43):
You just say OK, thanks, you handle it like that.
Andy (43:47):
The taxes on investment not that I know anything about
this, but I've heard the taxeson investment income.
Our investments in general areinsane, where you have to
actually pay the tax, not whenyou sell it like you do in the
us.
You know you pay tax on whatyou've made, but here instead
it's uh, like when you buy ityou have to pay taxes every year
(44:11):
on how much you have in there.
They're right that might not beright now.
Everything I said cut that.
I have no idea what I'm talkingabout.
Yeah, I don't have enough moneyto be investing in stocks, but
uh, that's what I've heard it's.
It's some kind of.
It's different.
There's no capital gains taxhere, so if sell a house, you
(44:32):
don't pay a tax on that profit.
But there is something whereyou buy stock and you have to
pay the tax then instead oflater.
This is pointless.
Don't listen to me, I couldtalk about it.
Let's talk about brain surgerynow, because that's about, as I
know, about, the same amount ofthat.
Shawn (44:50):
That was your one night hospital stay.
Andy (44:53):
Yeah, let me do it myself.
That's part of the socializedmedicine.
Shawn (44:53):
amount of that is that, and that's that was your one
night hospital stay, yeah yeah,yeah, they let me do it myself.
Andy (44:56):
That's part of the uh socialized medicine.
Shawn (44:58):
You have to actually do your own I hear brain surgery is
supposed to be painless oh nicewell assuming they numb the
whole cutting into your skullpart except the drilling part.
Andy (45:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah I do feel like our taxes probably go
to worthwhile things, becausewe don't have a big weapons
industry or our defense industryis probably not the biggest
recipient of tax dollars and ourroads are decent.
Alex (45:30):
Yeah, okay.
Andy (45:31):
And the kids aren't stupid , so that must be helping from
the tax money.
Alex (45:36):
Yeah, I think probably one other difference, big
difference here I would say, isjust employment safety.
I suppose Employment safety youcannot just get fired on the
spot like you see on TV inAmerican shows.
I don't have personal obviouslyknow obviously examples there I
(45:57):
do.
Andy (45:58):
Yeah, yeah, he does.
I mean, I didn't get fired, butyou know, working in the US.
You can be in a quoteright-to-work state like
Arkansas.
There was a downturn in theeconomy and every week we had an
all-hands meeting and theywould announce here are the
(46:18):
names of the people who arebeing laid off today and that's
when you would find out that youwere laid off.
You can't really do that here,just kind of comforting.
Alex (46:29):
Yeah, it goes both ways, because then you know if you do
have, let's say, someone whomight be underperforming or not
pulling their weight, to try toget rid of them is a little bit
more challenging.
You know, you have to probablygo to a managed work sort of
scheme where they have to dodaily check-ins or reporting on
(46:51):
what they're doing and stufflike that.
So you really have to get to apoint where you have a real like
valid reason that is measurable, you know to then, such a
capitalist over here no, I'mjust saying how it is.
I mean, luckily we haven't hadto do that.
Pavel (47:07):
You know, I wasn't part of any of that, but you know,
that's from what I've heard Ijust remembered also that when I
moved to new zealand and onlyworked like half a year of a
calendar year, I got some refundfrom taxes.
Yeah, and I I never feltstressed about you know how do
(47:30):
we file what if, if we're gonnafile something incorrectly, you
know.
Or I was like a year ago orsomething, I read all these
rules about the ira and then Ilooked at my work you know the
401k and I'm like the majority,the most of my money was an IRA
(47:52):
and I'm like I was stressing forlike a whole day until I called
.
I was thinking like I went overthe limit or something.
You know, do I have to pay likea ginormous amount of money
because, you know, I mismanagedsomething?
So yeah, there's definitely alot of pressure here about the
you know taxes and doctor billsand stuff.
Shawn (48:14):
And it is unfriendly, like the approach really is
almost like you've donesomething wrong yeah yeah yeah,
we got fault we got uh, when wasthis?
A couple years ago, we gotsomething from the irs in the
mail saying they had looked atour 2019 taxes.
So like five years earlier, andthey found some problem and we
owed two thousand dollars and wehad 10 days to pay it or we
were like fined or something,and they included the mail time.
Citizen Remote Ad (48:38):
So it took like five or six days.
Shawn (48:40):
At that point you have no time to appeal.
There's no one to call like.
You just have to pay, rightyeah now I'm like any day
another letter from the irscould yeah, 2019.
Alex (48:51):
I don't remember what I was doing back then.
Shawn (48:53):
I can't fight it or remember, you know how much I
owe you, Just tell me yeah yeah,I am the last person on the
planet that is technically savvyenough to know exactly what I
need to give you.
Anyway, so if somebody wereinterested in moving to New
Zealand, or they wereconsidering New Zealand, given
(49:13):
the fact that you've all donethat, what advice would you give
to them in preparing to NewZealand?
Or they were considering NewZealand, given the fact that
you've all done that, whatadvice would you give to them in
preparing to do that?
Alex (49:18):
Go for it.
You know, obviously nowadays,also with YouTube and all that,
you can watch videos.
You know, I mean even youbefore your India trip.
You know you watch lots ofYouTube videos on how to get
around, what to look out for,which places to avoid and this
and that.
Andy (49:36):
So I think nowadays it's a lot easier to do your research
yeah, true before you go there,not so much back then before,
but now I think back in theearly 1900s when I on a boat for
a week goodness, oh yeah, gofor it.
Alex (49:58):
I think I mean it.
Andy (50:01):
I was quite lucky in all of my circumstances.
It was all kind of laid out forme and all that.
So it's easy for me to say,just do it.
But I, um, looking back, I'veprobably spent all the money I
had, you know, dealing with ahouse and an apartment that were
(50:22):
still in the U?
S, and I couldn't actuallymanage.
Um, if, if I would say anything, I'd be like seriously think
about whether or not you want tomove and then whether or not
you want to maintain or beresponsible for a home in the us
that you don't live in and ornear to or nearby enough for you
(50:44):
know.
Alex (50:45):
Think about the assets you have there and whether or not
it's really worth dealing withthem yeah, I guess it also
depends, because I don't knowhow long you were expecting to
stay in new zealand.
I guess you didn't really touchupon that.
But that also obviously is afactor.
You know, if you think you'reonly going to go for a few years
and come back, then you know,of course don't get rid of your
(51:07):
house or whatnot.
But if you are open-ended,let's say, and you don't see
yourself going back anytime soon, then that's something that
would take out a lot of thestress and, you know, lucky for
both of us, you know we don'thave kids or anything.
I think that's also obviously abig factor that you have to
consider.
(51:28):
Um, you know, we have friendswho've, you know, even here
worried about schooling zonesand where to live and how the
kids are going to get to schooland things like that.
But you know we don't have to.
Andy (51:39):
So leave your kids, sell your house.
Alex (51:42):
Just bring the cats Just take the cats.
Shawn (51:47):
Do you speak any Maori?
I'm struggling with.
Andy (51:50):
English still.
Alex (51:50):
I feel a bit bad.
I know we know a few words hereand there, but they're trying
really hard here to make sureMaori is still included On the
signs.
If you take public transportthey always announce the next
station first in Maori and thenin English and everything.
So you pick up things here andthere and you can take lessons.
(52:11):
I've got a friend who's doingmaori lessons and every night or
whatnot, they have some classesand then like an exam and
everything and that's a bit toomuch.
I think it's stressful toprepare for all that.
But yeah, no, it justdefinitely.
Shawn (52:26):
You know it's quite quite immersive still I was watching
a house hunters internationalepisode once and it was in new
zealand and you, maori,obviously you know this, but the
W-H sound is a fa right and itwas in.
I don't remember where it was.
It wasn't Whakatane, it wassomething else Whangarei, maybe
it was Whangarei but they keptsaying the what.
Alex (52:48):
It's called Whakapapa.
Shawn (52:50):
Oh yeah, but it's literally the skiing called
fucker papa.
Oh yeah, but anyway, like let'ssay it was fungery, but they
the whole episode they kept.
The narrator kept sayingwangari, oh no, that is such a
big mistake to make.
I wonder if it was deliberatebecause they thought viewers
(53:10):
wouldn't know that the wh was afuss sound oh, and that's yeah
right, okay, yeah but it wasweird still do like a little
preamble at the start itwouldn't be that difficult.
Andy (53:22):
Yeah, but that's the right way for that language, if it's
German or French orLuxembourgish, and I'll be like
(53:42):
what did you just say?
Like she said Roger Federertoday, but she said it and was
like French in it and I was likeI have no idea who you're
talking about.
How do you say it?
Alex (53:57):
Federer.
Andy (53:58):
How do you say Roger?
Alex (54:00):
I just said Federer and he's like wait what?
Andy (54:02):
Yeah, but you said his whole name.
Alex (54:04):
Like Roger, you would say in Luxembourgish.
Andy (54:08):
So all at once.
Alex (54:10):
Roger Federer oh, okay.
Andy (54:11):
Roger Federer, you mean that's beautiful.
Oh okay, Roger Federer, youmean that's beautiful.
Shawn (54:14):
Yeah, out of context, I probably wouldn't get that
either.
Yeah, he must hate hearingAmericans say his name.
Andy (54:19):
Federer.
Pavel (54:23):
What is Sorry?
Andy (54:26):
What's my social security number?
Pavel (54:27):
Yeah, I mean like, besides Mexican food, is there
anything that you miss aboutAmerica?
Andy (54:40):
Well, I used to miss.
You know, I used to like takehalf an empty suitcase back and
then just pile it full of stuffthat I can't get here.
Alex (54:51):
Tamales, Tamales Again where was I?
Andy (54:53):
You were.
I can't get here.
Tamales, tamales.
I mean again, where would we go, tamales, you would travel.
Loose tamales no in the can.
Alex (55:01):
The ones in the can, or like the salsa verde.
Yeah, so food.
Andy (55:05):
But like everything from like clothes and tools and all
that.
But nowadays the prices therein the USs aren't really as
favorable as they are here.
They're about the same.
It's not worth it to bring backa pair of jeans and sell it on
the black market, like I wasdoing, tax-free well um oh, this
(55:30):
isn't gonna go online, is it?
Oh, this isn't going to goonline, is it?
Alex (55:33):
But you know, like Arkansas is, you know, known for
Walmart, so oftentimes you knowyou get everything in Walmart
and so whatever he could find hewould put in a suitcase.
But now going there, you almostcome out more expensive really.
So it's not even worth theextra suitcase, the extra weight
.
You have to lug around and youcan get a lot of it here anyway
(55:55):
now it is now it is yeah butwhat about, like family or old
friends?
Pavel (56:09):
oh, I'm like the first thing that we talk about is
things, things, things.
Alex (56:15):
Mexican food.
Yeah, I mean, I guess for myend, my family now is back in
headquarters in Luxembourg, soit is a lot further to go.
It's literally the other end ofthe world here.
I think the antipode ofAuckland is Madrid in Spain, so
it's literally the other end ofthe world here.
I think the antipode ofauckland is madrid in spain.
Um, so it's almost quicker tomaybe what does that mean?
Shawn (56:38):
like through the globe?
Alex (56:40):
yeah, yeah, it's not easy.
If I mean, I don't really wantto think about this too much,
but you know, in case ofemergencies or whatnot, it's not
an easy flight to hop on tothen get to the other side.
You know, you have to spend atleast two days travel time, I
think, maybe 34 hours, I think,was my record, probably and
that's getting to a big town inEurope and then getting to
(57:03):
Luxembourg.
It's always at least anotherflight somehow.
So, yeah, in that sense it's alittle bit painful seeing family
.
Yeah, in that sense it's alittle bit painful seeing family
.
Oftentimes, though, you know,because my folks are quite got
the travel bug, so we can meethalfway somewhere or try
somewhere else, which has alwaysbeen pretty neat.
(57:25):
And yeah, I mean same with yourparents, andy.
We convinced them once to meetus in Hawaii, which was really
nice because for us it's only aneight-hour flight, so that's
really nothing For them.
It was still the US, somethingthat they're familiar with.
Andy (57:40):
Domestic flights were bad.
Alex (57:42):
Oh yeah, yeah, within the US.
That's the thing, yeah, butit's still a tropical island and
we had a nice holiday andeverything, and they even came
here, so it's still it'smanageable, but, yeah, it's
definitely something that's abit difficult, you know, we
don't get to see them as much aswe want to and you do have to
(58:03):
have a plan in mind for emergingemergencies.
Andy (58:08):
Luckily for me, I can fly to dallas or houston or Houston
any given day if I need to.
I mean, I don't want to eventhink about the amount it'll
cost, but if I need to go I canget there pretty quick.
Alex (58:25):
And then find out where to get to Arkansas.
For that there might be anothertwo flights from there.
It might cost more too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shawn (58:32):
It's fine.
You know, the two flights fromthere might cost more too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's fine.
I was looking at going to uh,wisconsin, which is where I grew
up uh, to visit some family andfriends and I was just shocked
like I could get to.
I could get from seattle todublin, ireland, for hundreds of
dollars less than going towisconsin, and that was with a,
that was with a connectingflight.
Alex (58:54):
It was crazy that's crazy, yeah alex andy, thanks for
taking the time yeah, no problem, this was fun yeah, thanks and
hopefully one day you guys canmake make your way here too well
, december there is a date but aone-way about that.
Shawn (59:13):
Well, that's the plan.
So is New Zealand the answer?
That depends on your profession, your patience and your
appetite for naughty language onTV and long immigration forms.
But for those who do qualify,new Zealand offers something
rare in today's world A quiet,functional democracy, a
(59:35):
landscape that borders onspiritual and a social contract
built on trust, fairness andmodesty things that our guests
today, alex and Andy, bothhighlighted.
It's not a quick fix and it'snot an easy escape hatch from
political disillusionment.
It's a country with its ownpriorities, its own limits and
(59:57):
its own expectations for thepeople who choose to call it
home.
But if you're ready to trade inchaos for calm and culture,
wars for community gardens, newZealand might just be your next
chapter.
Next week, we're diving intosomething a little more
transactional.
Next week, we're diving intosomething a little more
transactional.
We're taking a close look atgolden passports, the world of
(01:00:17):
citizenship by investment.
Specifically, we'll look atMalta, st Kitts and Nevis and a
few other countries that willlet you buy your way into a
second passport.
We'll talk costs, ethics,loopholes and what it means when
citizenship becomes a commodity.
If you enjoyed this episode orif you found it in any way
(01:00:37):
helpful, please share it withsomeone who's thinking about
their own escape plan.
And remember, moving abroadisn't about giving up, which
nobody would blame you for, butsometimes it's about starting
fresh somewhere a little quieterand saner and safer.
This is Leaving America,because sometimes home isn't
(01:00:58):
where you started.
Thank you.
Citizen Remote is a global mobility
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Shawn (01:01):
Welcome to Leaving America, the podcast where we
ask big questions about newbeginnings, second chances and
what it really means to startover somewhere else.
Last week we introduced you tosome English-speaking countries
that are great options if you'relooking to move abroad.
Among them was New Zealand.
For years, new Zealand hashovered near the top of every
(01:23):
where should I move list,especially for those
disillusioned by politicalpolarization, economic stability
or just the general noise ofAmerican life.
It's small, it's quiet, it'sgreen and, yes, they filmed the
Lord of the Rings there.
But under the surface, newZealand is more than just Middle
Earth.
It's a sovereign nation withstrict immigration rules, a
(01:46):
delicate housing market and astrong sense of national
identity.
That takes some real work toearn your place in.
So in today's episode, myhusband Pavel returns and we're
going to be talking to two ofour friends that made the move
to New Zealand, one from theUnited States and one from
Luxembourg, about their move,what surprised them about New
(02:06):
Zealand, how they've settled inand why they probably wouldn't
consider leaving.
Hey, pavel, welcome back.
Hi, Shawn, happy birthday week.
Pavel (02:17):
Oh, thank you.
Shawn (02:19):
How does it feel to be in your 30s now?
Pavel (02:22):
It feels great.
It feels like I have all thisenergy.
Shawn (02:26):
It feels like I'm on top of the world Feels like Benjamin
Button going back in time.
Pavel (02:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great.
I'm not gonna lie about havingan absolutely great 30s of my
life in the country that we'regoing to be talking about today.
Shawn (02:45):
Yep, new Zealand, which is where we met and it's where
you met the people, our friendsthat we interviewed for this
episode Alex and Andy.
You met them both at work right.
Pavel (02:58):
Yeah, I met Alex and Andy for work and Andy was actually
my lead on the very firstproject where I had to design a
desk for a private jet.
Shawn (03:12):
A what?
Pavel (03:13):
A desk.
Shawn (03:14):
Oh.
Andy (03:16):
Yeah.
Pavel (03:18):
It was probably the least exciting thing on that airplane
, but that desk had to fitsomething Apple related.
Like some device, it was asmall desk but it had a chair.
Shawn (03:35):
Was the chair fixed in place?
Yes, we haven't been back toNew Zealand since when were we
last there?
2019, just before COVID ohright, that's right, right
before COVID, because it wasthat December, yep, and we're
going back this December for themonth.
What are you most lookingforward to?
Pavel (03:57):
Well, I look forward to see Alex and Andy in person.
Yeah, and I look forward tovisiting some of my favorite
places.
And I look forward to visitingsome of my favorite places and I
look forward to seeing someother wonderful friends that I
was lucky to make in Auckland,new, zealand, over the years
(04:20):
that I lived there but, like alot of them, don't live in
Auckland anymore.
I know that's what's going tomake it a little bit difficult
but at the same time it willprovide more opportunities for
us to travel Right yeah To seethe Taspin sea and the ocean and
(04:41):
hopefully visit Queenstown andsee the Glenorchy with Mount
Ernst Law and just all thesescenic places.
We have to start planning that.
Shawn (04:56):
Oh yeah, we're your hosts , pavel and Shawn, and if your
idea of a better life includesgeothermal spas, functioning
health care, conservation andpolitical restraint, you're
absolutely in the right place Tostay updated on the latest
episodes.
Follow, like and share.
Leaving America on the DeepDive with Shawn podcast feed.
(05:18):
Wherever you get your podcasts,podcasts.
And if you've relocated toAotearoa and can finally sleep
without checking the news at 2am, or if you just want to know
how to pronounce Whangarei orWhakapapa, we want to hear from
you.
Email us at deepdivewithshawnat gmailcom.
Pavel (05:37):
Okay, let's pack your bags.
It's time to see some kiwibirds and kiwis and lots of
sunscreen, because the sun isquite brutal in New Zealand.
This is Living America.
Shawn (05:56):
Alex, Andy, thanks for being here.
How are you?
Alex (05:59):
Yeah, we're good.
Good, it's a nice wet sunny.
Andy (06:05):
No, it's not sunny nice, wet, sunny, cloudy, dark do you
know where you?
Shawn (06:12):
are no, but you're.
You're in new zealand, soyou're heading into your winter
as we're heading into our summer.
Alex (06:19):
Yeah yep, that's right was the, the summer nice, the
summer was good, very hot.
Andy (06:26):
Very dry.
Alex (06:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andy always tries to grow someveggies every year, and I think
this year was a little bit toughto keep things alive.
But the chilies are still going, so that's good.
But no luck with any tomatoesor anything like that, so we'll
have to try again next year.
Pavel (06:45):
What do you mean?
The chillies are still growing.
They're still growing, yeah,they're still on little plants.
Alex (06:51):
You have to go get some.
Andy (06:52):
Yeah, I think there are probably 30 of them out there
that are just bright red.
Alex (06:56):
Yeah.
Andy (06:57):
I need to pick today.
Alex (07:00):
And then you may go and make some chili sauce after that
.
It's a little side hustle.
Shawn (07:06):
When I first started growing things, I found that I
would grow, I would get reallyinto the things that would take
off like cucumbers or whatever.
And then I realized, like Idon't actually really like
cucumbers, it's just that theyjust grow like a weed.
We did that with bok choy.
Alex (07:21):
Bok choy grows great here I hate bok choy.
What else can we make out of it?
Shawn (07:29):
like soup, or let's start here.
Maybe you can tell us whereyou're from, but also why you
chose to move away and why youchose new zealand yeah, yeah for
sure.
Alex (07:39):
Um, so probably from my accent you can tell that I'm not
from anywhere that reallysomeone can decipher.
But yeah, I'm originally fromLuxembourg.
But you know, growing up we'vekind of moved all over the place
really with my parents for mydad's work and stuff, so hence
why my accent probably haspicked up on various places.
(08:01):
But yeah, I came to New Zealandpretty much a long time ago now
but for my studies basically,and I wanted to, you know, study
abroad, and at the time myparents were living in the
Philippines and I think theywere thinking of moving to
Thailand in a couple of yearsafter that.
So I figured, you know, newZealand is not the furthest away
(08:24):
from there.
My other options, I think,would have been Canada or
England, but I just kind ofwanted to try something new and
different.
And why not?
And definitely not Australia,because they have crocodiles and
snakes and spiders over there.
So New Zealand was a lot betterwith little kiwi birds,
(08:46):
harmless kiwi birds.
Pavel (08:48):
And have you ever been to New Zealand before?
Alex (08:51):
No, no, never.
It was kind of.
You know, I've heard goodthings about it.
I've had a couple of teachersand friends in my high school
that were from New Zealand andyou know they've only ever raved
about it.
I even played touch rugby inhigh school because of one of my
coaches was from New Zealand.
So you know, I kind of got alittle bit of hints of the
culture and what they do here.
(09:11):
A course called mechatronics Ithought you know, I wanted to do
engineering, but I didn't knowexactly what I wanted to do.
So mechatronics was a good youknow thing mix of mechanical,
electrical and software.
So I thought that was going tobe quite neat.
So yeah, that's.
So.
I came here just with a 23 kilosuitcase and figured it out you
(09:33):
know, I um so I've interviewedlike 20 experts and expats.
Shawn (09:38):
They all say you should always visit a place first
before you move there.
Alex (09:43):
Yeah, you're telling all the listeners that that is uh.
Shawn (09:45):
There are other routes to go here yeah, I think I mean it
was.
Alex (09:48):
It was the same for andy.
You actually also came herewithout being here before yeah
um both of us just were.
Inspired well.
Andy (10:00):
So I I grew up in arkansas , went to university in arkansas
.
When I was doing that I got anengineer as well.
I got a job as an intern at aplace that did aircraft work
interiors of aircraft and thengot hired on after college and
(10:22):
then after a while, if you're inthat line of work, you end up
in Seattle.
So I moved to Seattle doing thesame kind of stuff.
I was there for five years andthen found that there was a
place in New Zealand doing thesame thing and they were looking
for exactly what I did.
So I met the guys.
(10:43):
They came to Seattle quiteoften for to work with Boeing on
things.
I met him up there, hit it offreally well.
At the same time I had beenreally getting into fly to the
Concords and I'm big music fan,big comedy fan.
So you know that particularband hit home with me real quite
(11:07):
a bit.
But interviewed with the guysup in seattle, they said, um,
you know, we'll be in touch.
And then maybe a month or twolater they came back and made me
an offer and I had never.
I'd traveled out of the us abit, but nothing like huge.
I'd been to j, I'd been toMexico and you know, the
Caribbean and all that, justkind of decided like why not?
Alex (11:31):
I mean, I had what are you going to lose?
Andy (11:33):
Yeah.
So I moved straight toChristchurch right exactly when
the earthquake started and thenmoved up to Auckland about a
year after that with the samejob, and I've been in Auckland
ever since.
So, it was a totally blind, youknow, coming in blind.
(11:54):
I was not really intoChristchurch.
Besides the shaking, it wasjust kind of a it's a bit slower
pace and you know not a lot ofpeople wanted to socialize Not
that I'm a big socialite, knownot a lot of people wanted to
socialize not that I'm a bigsocialite but a lot of people
wanted to socialize therebecause of the earthquakes and
everyone was pretty stressed out.
But then I moved to Aucklandand it was a lot like Seattle,
(12:16):
but warmer and safer and justnicer in general, and haven't
even thought about leaving.
Really it's been good.
Alex (12:27):
I moved here 2009, and then you moved here 2010 by
Garcia Christchurch first, yeah.
Pavel (12:34):
Maybe because New Zealand is so far away.
That's why you know, if some ofyour experts are Shawn saying
that you should visit thecountry before moving there.
With New Zealand, it will be alittle pricey to go to visit and
go back and then like, oh yeah.
Andy (12:53):
Yeah, I mean before, probably 2005 or 2006,.
I had never even thought aboutNew Zealand, really Didn't
really come up in my life at all.
Shawn (13:04):
A lot of people say about New Zealand and Pablo, you've
said this as well that it can ina way feel like you're on an
island.
I mean, I guess you are right,but it's a gigantic, there are
two gigantic islands, right thatit can kind of give you island
fever or cabin fever.
Do you guys experience that?
Alex (13:20):
I mean I think about it all the time because you know I
work at, you know the regional Imean the national airline at
the moment and you know to justgo to a different country you
have to fly at least three hourspretty much.
You know, especially comingfrom Europe where you just drive
anywhere.
You know half an hour you're inFrance where half an hour
(13:44):
you're in France Growing up wewould just go to the Belgian
coast for lunch, sometimes onthe weekends, just because we
wanted mussel and fries, and sothe concept of having to go onto
a plane just to go to adifferent country is quite
different, like a differentmentality for me.
Andy (14:01):
I've got a globe, a relatively old globe, but I had
it situated to where you couldjust see new zealand and then
it's just you know, oceaneverywhere around it.
I had to move it because it wasfreaking me out like I'm so far
away from everything down here.
Uh, just, you kind of want toput on the blinders and just say
(14:22):
, like this is, this is theworld that I live in.
Alex (14:25):
I don't have to, I don't want to think too much about how
far away I am from everythingin the all in that sense has
also been a blessing, becauseyou know you seem to be a little
bit in your bubble here.
You know you can easily shutoff the rest of the world,
whether it's a good or bad thing.
Andy (14:40):
But I think it's pretty good.
Usually it's a good thing.
Alex (14:43):
You know, same with even.
You know covid and things likethat.
You know, always a little bitlate to get everything here.
Uh, you know, including movies.
You know movies that have beenout in the cinemas everywhere
else.
Uh, come out here a bit later,but it's all right.
Shawn (14:59):
Yeah, it's easy, easy living, very laid back and we've
really enjoyed it when youmoved out there, did you intend
to stay out there as long as youdid?
Alex, you said that you hadjust brought essentially one bag
, which I guess, like if you'remaking a move, that big air
travel to get there, you'reprobably, unless you're, you
know, taking a shippingcontainer, you're taking a small
amount of your things and Iguess my circumstances were a
(15:21):
little bit different because Ididn't really have anything of
my own at that time.
Alex (15:27):
You know I was still living with my folks and
everything.
So it was fairly easy from thatsense that, you know, I just
grabbed all my belongings, youknow, clothes, especially
depending on whatever the seasonwas, and then the rest, you
know I could live in studentaccommodation and everything,
and so they have a good supportnetwork.
(15:48):
So it was actually really easyin that sense to set yourself up
.
You know it's different.
I guess if you're working andyou have things and cats and
things like that, you know tomove.
Andy (16:03):
For me.
I was really lucky because Ihad the job in the job moved me
down here, so they, they movedall whatever I wanted to pack
into a container.
But I also had a partner at thetime who was did all the work,
really organizing it all andfiguring out because I had to
come down here and start work.
(16:23):
So that was all sort of out ofmy hands mainly, like I didn't,
I didn't.
Like I said, I was very, verylucky to just have a lot of help
from my partner and the jobmoving me doing all the
complicated stuff we did.
We had two cats and they bothwanted to come down too.
(16:45):
So we, we, uh, organized thatand that was probably the the
hardest thing, because I washere for like six months just me
, uh.
And then the cats turned up butthey had to go into quarantine
I can't even remember how longit was, but it seemed like ages.
So I'd go out and visit thecats and come back home without
the cats.
Alex (17:04):
It was kind of kind of hard like I think they also had
to do lots of vaccinations andshots yeah travel thing, because
you know New Zealand is sostrict with biosecurity and
things like that, you know,which is also a good thing
because we have so many nativeanimals and plants and things
here, but but again, I was luckyI didn't, I didn't have to do
(17:27):
that myself, that was taken careof, yeah.
Andy (17:30):
So it was kind of a hospital, not hospital pass.
What's the opposite of ahospital pass, a pass for me?
I just I just came down, I justturned up and then finding a
house and everything.
Alex (17:41):
How was that that?
Andy (17:42):
That was not too hard really.
In Christchurch it was prettyeasy to find a place.
Shawn (17:47):
Abel, you've made the move twice internationally, and
I think both times you did.
You also just went with acouple bags, right?
Pavel (17:55):
Yeah, just like Alex.
When I moved to New Zealand Ialso didn't have that much, so
it was not that dramatic ortraumatic.
Yeah, so most important clothesfit in one suitcase, and I
think there was one more kind oflike a duffel bag, which which
was enough you have everythingyou need here as well.
Alex (18:18):
You know, it's not like we're going to a, you know, a
country that doesn't have allthe right amenities and
everything like that.
But that does remind me of afunny story, because I did move
to the Netherlands.
Um, as well, I live there for abit and, um, you know, the
Dutch people don't know what itis in their water or how much
(18:38):
milk they drink, but they're allvery tall people and me being
relatively average, maybe on theshorter side, um, things didn't
quite fit me.
I had to buy.
I could buy children's stuff,which was great because it was a
bit cheaper and everything.
But you know, even the benchtopheight in the kitchen was
higher.
You know, the toilet is higher,everything is higher, like in
(19:01):
the mirror in the bathroom of myapartment I could only see this
part of my face, becauseeverything is generally higher.
I thought that was pretty funny.
But again, I could still findthings.
Shawn (19:11):
I just had to look around a little bit more yeah so I'm
guessing, when you first movedthere, your intent was not to
stay there maybe as long as youhave, I guess.
I'm wondering how that cameabout and if you plan on staying
there kind of in perpetuity orif you're thinking about maybe
going somewhere else.
Alex (19:30):
Yeah, I guess for me it was the studies.
So you know, it had a timelinethere, but then I really enjoyed
it and then I decided to alsodo further studies and
everything and then actuallyfinding a work.
I thought would be quite goodto at least have that under my
belt before I even went anywhereelse.
And so the good thing we knowwith the university, they have
(19:52):
career fairs and everything, andso then I found altitude pretty
much from the careers fair.
Paavo, I don't know Jamie Lamb,he, he was there, so he gave me
his card and everything, and so, yes, I started working there
straight after university.
And now, you know, after acouple of years, you know me and
(20:15):
Andy, we've met and we set up,you know, a life here.
Now We've got more cats andeverything.
We have a house.
So I don't know, I don't thinkwe're thinking of leaving
anytime soon, but who knows?
Andy (20:30):
I think mainly it comes up when when we say maybe we
should leave is because we're intraffic.
We're like this fucking trafficlanguage oh, is this?
No, this is for kids, oh okay,Listen, kids.
Pavel (20:45):
the traffic here is terrible sometimes yeah but it's
not any better here.
No, it's not, and that's thething.
Alex (20:53):
Yeah, you know in relative terms what are we really?
Complaining about yeah.
Pavel (20:58):
I mean, you have more narrow streets and you don't
have the rules.
I, I think I don't think youhave rules in auckland that
every house has to have like aparking, dedicated parking spot,
right, so everyone is justparks on the road, yeah, right
yeah, yeah so that's the and Ithink I guess the popular,
(21:19):
especially in auckland.
Alex (21:20):
I probably cannot speak for the rest of the country, but
you know the population isincreasing quite exponentially
because this is also where allthe jobs are and it's very
international and everything.
So I do feel like the maybecity planning or road planning
here isn't quite theinfrastructure isn't quite set
up for maybe that many peopleLike.
(21:42):
To be honest, during duringcovid, it was a breeze driving
around, there was a few peopleout and everything worked and
we're like, I think this is whatit was supposed to be for.
Um and now, yeah, just you know,especially during peak traffic
and whatnot, it's quite annoyingreally to get around.
But you know, we take the busas much as we can.
You know if we, if we do wantto go out for dinner or whatnot.
(22:04):
You know, and oftentimes youknow, we live in an area where,
just around the corner, we haveall the shops and the cafes and
sometimes we've spent most ofthe weekend not even using the
car, which is quite nice.
We just try to walk everywhere.
Andy (22:18):
I was in Bangalore, india, earlier this year and there are
no rules and it actually flowedpretty good with zero rules
complete anarchy on the streets,cars everywhere, everything
always moving.
Shawn (22:35):
It was amazing that's how I felt in rome, too.
I was like it felt like therewere no rules at all to the
driving but like it, it workedreally well yeah it was like
kind of like ants or like birdslike it just somehow worked but
so, alex, you made me thinkabout something when you said
you know everything's kind of inAuckland, and I think there is.
I don't know if this is achallenge or maybe you know like
(22:57):
a curse or a blessing insmaller countries, but it is
absolutely true that in Aucklandand I guess, when I say this as
a challenge, I don't know ifthere's like an urban planning
challenge or you know if this issomething that will become a
problem but in new zealand mostof urban life really revolves
around auckland to some degree,wellington, if you're like
(23:18):
working for government or christchurch, but the rest of the
country is quiet and I don'twant to say undeveloped, because
it's not like that, but it is.
it definitely is a rural vibethat you don't experience in the
same way in larger countries, Ithink yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Alex (23:33):
And I think yeah, obviously depending on the job,
because of course I don't wantto be commuting that much either
.
I always think, you know, itwould be quite nice sometimes to
live rurally fresh air andeverything.
He's not so much of a fanbecause he grew up rural, so I
think he prefers the city lifenow.
But I just couldn't do thecommutes.
You know I don't want to bewasting my time in a car or on,
(23:57):
you know, public transport.
If it's there, I'd rather justbe closer to work and get that
over with and everything.
So I think where we got ourhouse is a really sweet spot.
You know it's close enough toeverything.
Shawn (24:10):
Are you familiar with the Green Bay Blackhouse Bay area?
Alex (24:14):
Yeah, it's kind of across the other side of the freeway
here it's like the west, Ihaven't been there too much.
Yeah, I think the most we'vedone on that side is to visit
Pavel back in the day.
Shawn (24:27):
Do you consider a place like that to be not urban enough
?
Alex (24:31):
I think the main thing we like is having a little hustling
and bustling like town center,let's say that we can go to
walking where they have cafesand little cute shops and things
like that, not that we go outall the time or anything, but
just having that there andhaving a little bit of an
atmosphere.
We used to live in ponsonby, um,I'm not sure if you're familiar
(24:55):
with that area, but it's kindof more boutique shops and it
has a few pubs and restaurantsand there was always something
going on and it was quite neatto be able to just walk
everywhere and just go, even ifwe just walk up and down the
street.
You know, go for a long onehour walk or whatnot?
Just people watching and watchthe street.
You know, go for a long onehour walk, or whatnot?
Just people watching and watchthe world go by and everything.
(25:17):
We quite enjoyed that.
So I think maybe if we were inblockhouse bay or something I
don't know if there is a similarsort of little town center or
something like that, um, but youknow, just having to hop in a
car to go anywhere really is notreally something that we would
like that much, which is why wechose where we were.
Shawn (25:38):
You just want to know that if you die, it's going to
take somebody less than a monthto find your body.
Alex (25:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andy (25:45):
That's the main goal, yeah .
Shawn (25:47):
I think this is probably I don't know, I don't know if
this is an American thing, but Ithink that, like in the Western
world, when we move to otherplaces that are considered part
of the Western world, so like ifan American moves to Canada or
moves to like Australia or NewZealand, even maybe to Europe,
we kind of take for granted thatbecause we share so much
similarity in the way that westructure our lives that you
(26:11):
wouldn't experience cultureshock.
But I know, even going toCanada, there are things that
I'm, you know, a little bitsurprised by, or at least used
to be a little bit surprised by,and that's just an hour and a
half away from us.
What kind of culture shock didyou experience coming from, I
guess, the places that you camefrom into New Zealand?
Andy (26:29):
I think I would probably.
The first thing that comes tomind is the lack of Mexican food
.
That was that was disturbing.
And there's also very littleGreek food, but people don't
complain about that.
Alex (26:44):
But it is very international and that's again,
you know, not saying that muchyou know for maybe for the rest
of the country, but definitelyin Auckland Very international.
You walk out the door and youdon't really know where you are
sometimes because you see peoplefrom all sorts of parts of the
world and so we do have aplethora of different types of
(27:04):
restaurants around, even thingslike a Filipino restaurant that
I wouldn't have seen anywhereelse in the world, really,
except the Philippines for thePhilippines, except the
Philippines.
And here, I guess, so I thoughtthat's always very neat.
I thought it was real fungetting used to the slang and
eventually being able to discerndifferent versions of the New
(27:29):
Zealand accent depending onsouth or north island yeah, I
think I finally I mean my someof my friends might murder me,
but I finally started to see thedifferences also between
australian and australian yeahyeah I always thought the kiwi
accent was much more difficultfor me to understand than the
(27:50):
australian yeah, I don't know
Andy (27:55):
sometimes the australian accent is so twangy and strong
that it's almost southern us.
It's almost like an arkansasaccent for me.
Shawn (28:06):
Really get going I was legit in some circumstances in
new zealand where I was like Iam so sorry, what?
Alex (28:12):
and then I have to say it three or four times, I still
don't understand what you'resaying.
Andy (28:16):
That happens to me once a week probably.
What?
Alex (28:21):
Do you speak English?
Andy (28:24):
Or a lot of people don't understand what I'm saying
because they're not expecting anAmerican accent and so they
have to calculate what is itthat this person just accent,
and so you know they have to,like, calculate.
What is it that this personjust said?
Alex (28:36):
And you mumble.
Shawn (28:41):
It's not your accent, you're just a mumbler.
Pavel (28:49):
It was very clear to me that you were American when I
started at Altitude.
That's because I was wearing myAmerican flag suit and you're
the only one I could actuallyunderstand, because for the
first few months or the firstweek when I was in the first
team meeting, I was so stressedout because I could not
(29:11):
understand anything.
Everybody was saying,especially with like slang or
like you know oh, that's mean,I'm like what, who's mean?
Shawn (29:19):
yeah, yeah, yeah I remember the first time I heard
that like you know something as,and I was like as what?
Alex (29:30):
yeah, like, this is lazy or or or s a s s sweet ass yes,
yeah, I just walked aroundthanking everyone.
Shawn (29:38):
Oh, thank you, yeah, yeah I don't get that really as much
in the states there's acomedian here.
Andy (29:46):
I'm gonna butcher what exactly he said, but his name's
Guy Montgomery and he has thisstory.
Or he tells the story about how, growing up as a Kiwi, you hear
a British accent and you thinkthat's going to be an
educational, authoritative thing, and you hear an American
(30:07):
accent and you think that'sgoing to be entertainment, like
a joke or a movie star thing.
That you're going to be aentertainment like a joke or a
like movie star thing thatyou're gonna.
The information that you'regetting is either going to be
instructional or entertainment,depending on which accent it is
oh, that's a very interestingthought.
Pavel (30:26):
I never thought about it.
That is true, and the peoplewith british accent like, oh,
these are very cultural, yeahthis guy knows what he's talking
about yeah what did you think,posh, having lived in russia?
Shawn (30:40):
what kind of culture shock do you think you
experienced in new zealand?
Pavel (30:45):
I think people were less politically correct oh yeah
because in the us, like you know, you cannot say so many things
or cannot joke about so manythings.
So yeah, in in new zealand whenI worked, like oh, I'm like, oh
boy, those people swear andyeah, that's true but it was at
(31:09):
the same time it was.
It didn't feel aggressive or Ididn't feel too uncomfortable
about it.
But when I moved to the US andstarted working in a major
corporation, I became very close.
I wasn't comfortable withjoking with people, I was
(31:34):
filtering a lot more and it waskind of very sad in a way.
Only recently I started to be alittle bit more joking around
and stuff.
But yeah, it's just a much morelimited culture but it's the
most free, more limited, youknow, culture yeah.
Andy (31:54):
But it's the most free country in the world Exactly.
Pavel (31:59):
And yeah, that's the dream that is falling apart.
Andy (32:02):
I had very similar reactions when we would have a
meeting with this major aircraftmanufacturer that's based in
the US.
With this major aircraftmanufacturer that's based in the
US, we'd have, you know, theguys over from Seattle or
whatever, for instance, and theKiwis would be asking them
(32:24):
questions about, like theelection, and you know this
person who's somehow won theelection.
And I'm like guys, we don't talkabout these things in in work
in work things you like, youcan't you can't do it because
you don't know what that otherperson is thinking yeah, but
(32:45):
even things like you know on theradio here people swear yeah,
true you know, oh yeah and thetv station is like the, the uh
nz1, what's it?
Called tv nz, tv nz like theyshow full-blown uh, you know
foul language and adultsituations that you'd never see
on nbc that's why I have acorntv.
Shawn (33:08):
I'm looking for the swearing and the nudity.
I am actually kind of surprised, though it seems like almost
every country except the UnitedStates you can readily hear like
fuck dropped into a TV to a TVshow.
This is a good point to bringup because I did notice, just
traveling in general, notspecific to you know, being in
(33:31):
New Zealand but I did becomeaware of how much our American
experience has informed how wethink about not just what is
politically correct or what isappropriate, but that we project
that onto other places as well.
In New Zealand sometimes Itruly was people just seemed a
little bit more raw and theywould talk about things you know
(33:51):
, as you're saying, that I wouldnever and I would find myself
being like you can't.
Alex (33:57):
You can't say that.
Andy (33:59):
Yes, I travel to the US a couple of times a year with work
people to do work things andwith the younger guys I have to
tell them like hey, you gottadial back the cursing and stuff,
because these people are uhfucking insane.
Shawn (34:18):
They will turn on you very fast, too sensitive yeah,
maybe what are some of thethings that you maybe weren't
expecting but were pleasantsurprises or that you found to
be really rewarding living inanother country, specifically
New Zealand?
Andy (34:33):
I actually thought about this one quite a bit, the thing
that I mean it took probably 12,13 years, but I eventually
needed to go to the hospital andstay overnight.
Citizen Remote Ad (34:48):
And it was like I'm fine, don't worry, Give
us all the details.
Andy (34:51):
I'm fine, don't worry.
But I went in.
I always knew like, yes, it'ssocialized health care and I
know that my taxes are very high.
But you know, I hadn't actuallygone through the process.
So I go to my GP.
He says you need to go to thehospital now.
And so I go to my GP.
(35:14):
He says you need to go to thehospital now.
And so I go to the hospital.
I was sitting there maybe 45minutes and they ushered me into
an area with a bed.
They did the things they neededto do.
I got up the next morning theychecked me out.
They're like yeah, you're allright, you can go home.
And so I got all my stuff and Iwas walking out and I was like,
okay, where do I pay?
Are you just going to send methe bill?
(35:35):
Like how does that work?
And they looked at me like whatthe hell are you talking?
Citizen Remote Ad (35:39):
about.
Andy (35:39):
Go home.
You're done, this is it.
Get better, you don't pay, justget better, Like okay, it's
amazing.
Alex (35:47):
You're mentally preparing for 15,000.
Yeah.
Andy (35:52):
So you don't have to you know if you're sick, you don't
have to go broke and like, startthis terrible chain of events
that leads you to be in bigtrouble financially.
You just go in, they treat youand you go home.
Alex (36:05):
They even validate your parking free parking.
Andy (36:08):
That's true.
That's the thing that she's themost.
Yeah Cause I cause I?
Because I went in to give himan overnight bag.
And to laugh at me.
Alex (36:16):
And yeah, no, but you know , I had to pay for parking and
then I left, which is fine, andI'm like oh, you better check,
because your car is going to bethere for all night and
everything.
There must be a limit, probably.
But then he said no, theyvalidated it, Not his fault of
course for being there, so itwas quite surprising pleasantly.
Andy (36:37):
The other thing I think is I think you would agree the
engineering field here they'reisolated and they're used to
making things work and figuringthings out themselves.
Things work and figuring thingsout themselves and, like you,
see huge major player companieslike, uh, rocket lab because of
(36:59):
that.
But they, they are real scrappy, they, they have a very broad
knowledge base of how to doeverything.
I see it every day in my job,yeah the guys in my figure it
out where I work are like I I'mlike how do you know all this?
but they just absorb everythingand and can just, are willing to
(37:20):
try whatever.
Like it's quite impressive thethe sort of um gung-ho attitude
of like let's figure it out.
Alex (37:29):
Yeah, it's a lot yeah, because I guess you don't have
all the resources necessarily atyour fingertips.
Andy (37:34):
We can't hire a guy in a week to do this thing.
We'll just figure it out.
Shawn (37:40):
There is something to this just figure it out thing
which I also think comes frombeing on an island, kind of the
middle, well, the bottom of thePacific right and having limited
access to a lot of things.
But I noticed this when I wasin New Zealand as well.
But I noticed this when I wasin New Zealand as well.
I've noticed this when I was inHawaii as well, and there's
almost a romanticism to it whichI think we used to have in the
United States and we used tovalue that, which is make
(38:03):
something last as long as youcan and continue to fix it.
And however you got to fix itto make it work, you do that and
we kind of respected that.
And I think somewhere along theline we became so commodified
that we almost became somethingto scorn, like if somebody had
an old car, that they were justyou know they would continue to
fix so that it would run becamesomething to judge and so like
why not?
(38:23):
get a new car and there wassomething being in New Zealand
seeing that lifestyle.
It's not.
It's not a lesser lifestyle.
It just seems like there'sstill a certain amount of
respect and dignity in figuringout how to make things work that
we seem to have lost in theStates.
Alex (38:37):
Yeah, no, I think, yeah, yeah, I feel like that as well.
You don't have to always buynew anything.
Make something last.
Pavel (38:45):
Your yard doesn't have to be perfect as well, right,
right?
Alex (38:49):
it's a work in progress yeah everything is a work in
progress.
It will never be done.
Pavel (38:56):
Yeah, because here sometimes it's like a pure, like
neighborhood pressure, likesomebody's having like all this
uh, perfectly manicured lawnsand everything.
And here's our little, you know, dry patch of grass.
Alex (39:14):
Yeah, and I like that, yeah, I like that natural aspect
.
Pavel (39:21):
You know it's, it's clean , it's like orderly, it's not.
You know, green picture perfect, but you know it's, it's, it's
comfortable, it's natural.
Andy (39:32):
I lived in this house in Fayetteville and Arkansas for
maybe six months or so.
The reason I left was becausethe guy who owned the house he
was a travel nurse and he wassomewhere else, so we were
renting this house from him.
It had a magnolia tree in thefront and he was very, very
(39:55):
strict about you got to pick upthe leaves from the magnolia
tree when they fall and I waslike, yeah, whatever, cool, yeah
sure, and then I would getcalls from him about the tree.
So he had some like snitch treesnitch in the neighborhood
saying that we weren't pickingup the the leaves on the tree.
Pavel (40:15):
And we have a magnolia tree out in our berm here and I
just let the leaves fall, man,yeah it's not that bad that guy
can't hurt me anymore yeah, no,but when they flower, yeah, when
they just flower for like a dayor two and then everything
drops and it's like it goes likeone day it's the most beautiful
(40:37):
thing on the planet and thenext day it's the ugliest thing
you've ever seen I will say thisone doesn't seem to lose its
leaves.
Andy (40:45):
Yeah, this one's actually pretty nice.
Alex (40:47):
He's got lots of little flowers randomly.
I don't know when he's supposedto be blooming, but he's been
pretty good yeah.
Shawn (40:55):
He's also got a gender, nigel.
Let's talk about taxes a littlebit.
We don't have to go into toomany specifics, but the United
States is one of just a handfulI think it might be just one of
two countries the other beingEritrea on the planet that has a
universal tax on its citizens,but there are thresholds to like
(41:16):
an income and there are certainways that you can.
Reciprocal taxes can becanceled, but I'm just wondering
how you found the tax situation, being an American citizen and
also, you know, earning anincome in New Zealand.
Andy (41:29):
First of all those damn Eritreans.
I know I can't believe it.
So what is the tax rate for um?
33 percent 33, 30, I try not tothink about it it's um it's
bracketed.
Alex (41:46):
So yeah, so from from zero .
If you earn from zero to thisamount, it's this percentage
percentage.
And then it kind of bracketed.
So not the whole thing is thehigher amount if you earn well,
but it's all kind of automaticLike they take it out of your
pay slip every time it's calledpay as you earn.
Andy (42:06):
It's really good because they make you not think about it
very much, because you don'thave to do a tax return every
year.
You don't have to figure outlike where are my receipts?
Unless you're a business, youknow you're as a regular person,
it's just all taken care of.
They know how much tax you owe.
You don't have to tell them andthen they actually already know
(42:31):
and they're like aha, we gotyou.
We actually know it's this muchthat you.
That whole stupid process inthe us doesn't happen here.
They just know how much you owebecause they know how much you
make.
It blows my mind now that youhave to do so much stressful
work to you know.
Here's what I think I made andhere's what I think I made and
(42:53):
here's what I think I owe.
Please don't throw me in jail.
Shawn (42:57):
We should put a fine point on that.
What you're saying is you don'tfile a tax return in New
Zealand for the country of NewZealand.
They take care of all that foryou and you never really even
see that process.
Andy (43:07):
Yeah, yeah, you, it is um.
If you for some reason workedovertime or if you took time off
without pay, they adjust itbecause they know what you made.
Alex (43:18):
I think maybe once a year, I kind of remember they might
just send you a thing to confirmLike, hey, we think that you
may have overpaid because ofthis, and that.
Here's a credit note or theother way, but it's never heaps
or anything, and it is inunusual circumstances when you
have like odd overtimes orsomething that is not the usual
(43:40):
process.
Citizen Remote Ad (43:42):
But again, it's very easy.
Alex (43:43):
You just say OK, thanks, you handle it like that.
Andy (43:47):
The taxes on investment not that I know anything about
this, but I've heard the taxeson investment income.
Our investments in general areinsane, where you have to
actually pay the tax, not whenyou sell it like you do in the
us.
You know you pay tax on whatyou've made, but here instead
it's uh, like when you buy ityou have to pay taxes every year
(44:11):
on how much you have in there.
They're right that might not beright now.
Everything I said cut that.
I have no idea what I'm talkingabout.
Yeah, I don't have enough moneyto be investing in stocks, but
uh, that's what I've heard it's.
It's some kind of.
It's different.
There's no capital gains taxhere, so if sell a house, you
(44:32):
don't pay a tax on that profit.
But there is something whereyou buy stock and you have to
pay the tax then instead oflater.
This is pointless.
Don't listen to me, I couldtalk about it.
Let's talk about brain surgerynow, because that's about, as I
know, about, the same amount ofthat.
Shawn (44:50):
That was your one night hospital stay.
Andy (44:53):
Yeah, let me do it myself.
That's part of the socializedmedicine.
Shawn (44:53):
amount of that is that, and that's that was your one
night hospital stay, yeah yeah,yeah, they let me do it myself.
Andy (44:56):
That's part of the uh socialized medicine.
Shawn (44:58):
You have to actually do your own I hear brain surgery is
supposed to be painless oh nicewell assuming they numb the
whole cutting into your skullpart except the drilling part.
Andy (45:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah I do feel like our taxes probably go
to worthwhile things, becausewe don't have a big weapons
industry or our defense industryis probably not the biggest
recipient of tax dollars and ourroads are decent.
Alex (45:30):
Yeah, okay.
Andy (45:31):
And the kids aren't stupid , so that must be helping from
the tax money.
Alex (45:36):
Yeah, I think probably one other difference, big
difference here I would say, isjust employment safety.
I suppose Employment safety youcannot just get fired on the
spot like you see on TV inAmerican shows.
I don't have personal obviouslyknow obviously examples there I
(45:57):
do.
Andy (45:58):
Yeah, yeah, he does.
I mean, I didn't get fired, butyou know, working in the US.
You can be in a quoteright-to-work state like
Arkansas.
There was a downturn in theeconomy and every week we had an
all-hands meeting and theywould announce here are the
(46:18):
names of the people who arebeing laid off today and that's
when you would find out that youwere laid off.
You can't really do that here,just kind of comforting.
Alex (46:29):
Yeah, it goes both ways, because then you know if you do
have, let's say, someone whomight be underperforming or not
pulling their weight, to try toget rid of them is a little bit
more challenging.
You know, you have to probablygo to a managed work sort of
scheme where they have to dodaily check-ins or reporting on
(46:51):
what they're doing and stufflike that.
So you really have to get to apoint where you have a real like
valid reason that is measurable, you know to then, such a
capitalist over here no, I'mjust saying how it is.
I mean, luckily we haven't hadto do that.
Pavel (47:07):
You know, I wasn't part of any of that, but you know,
that's from what I've heard Ijust remembered also that when I
moved to new zealand and onlyworked like half a year of a
calendar year, I got some refundfrom taxes.
Yeah, and I I never feltstressed about you know how do
(47:30):
we file what if, if we're gonnafile something incorrectly, you
know.
Or I was like a year ago orsomething, I read all these
rules about the ira and then Ilooked at my work you know the
401k and I'm like the majority,the most of my money was an IRA
(47:52):
and I'm like I was stressing forlike a whole day until I called
.
I was thinking like I went overthe limit or something.
You know, do I have to pay likea ginormous amount of money
because, you know, I mismanagedsomething?
So yeah, there's definitely alot of pressure here about the
you know taxes and doctor billsand stuff.
Shawn (48:14):
And it is unfriendly, like the approach really is
almost like you've donesomething wrong yeah yeah yeah,
we got fault we got uh, when wasthis?
A couple years ago, we gotsomething from the irs in the
mail saying they had looked atour 2019 taxes.
So like five years earlier, andthey found some problem and we
owed two thousand dollars and wehad 10 days to pay it or we
were like fined or something,and they included the mail time.
Citizen Remote Ad (48:38):
So it took like five or six days.
Shawn (48:40):
At that point you have no time to appeal.
There's no one to call like.
You just have to pay, rightyeah now I'm like any day
another letter from the irscould yeah, 2019.
Alex (48:51):
I don't remember what I was doing back then.
Shawn (48:53):
I can't fight it or remember, you know how much I
owe you, Just tell me yeah yeah,I am the last person on the
planet that is technically savvyenough to know exactly what I
need to give you.
Anyway, so if somebody wereinterested in moving to New
Zealand, or they wereconsidering New Zealand, given
(49:13):
the fact that you've all donethat, what advice would you give
to them in preparing to NewZealand?
Or they were considering NewZealand, given the fact that
you've all done that, whatadvice would you give to them in
preparing to do that?
Alex (49:18):
Go for it.
You know, obviously nowadays,also with YouTube and all that,
you can watch videos.
You know, I mean even youbefore your India trip.
You know you watch lots ofYouTube videos on how to get
around, what to look out for,which places to avoid and this
and that.
Andy (49:36):
So I think nowadays it's a lot easier to do your research
yeah, true before you go there,not so much back then before,
but now I think back in theearly 1900s when I on a boat for
a week goodness, oh yeah, gofor it.
Alex (49:58):
I think I mean it.
Andy (50:01):
I was quite lucky in all of my circumstances.
It was all kind of laid out forme and all that.
So it's easy for me to say,just do it.
But I, um, looking back, I'veprobably spent all the money I
had, you know, dealing with ahouse and an apartment that were
(50:22):
still in the U?
S, and I couldn't actuallymanage.
Um, if, if I would say anything, I'd be like seriously think
about whether or not you want tomove and then whether or not
you want to maintain or beresponsible for a home in the us
that you don't live in and ornear to or nearby enough for you
(50:44):
know.
Alex (50:45):
Think about the assets you have there and whether or not
it's really worth dealing withthem yeah, I guess it also
depends, because I don't knowhow long you were expecting to
stay in new zealand.
I guess you didn't really touchupon that.
But that also obviously is afactor.
You know, if you think you'reonly going to go for a few years
and come back, then you know,of course don't get rid of your
(51:07):
house or whatnot.
But if you are open-ended,let's say, and you don't see
yourself going back anytime soon, then that's something that
would take out a lot of thestress and, you know, lucky for
both of us, you know we don'thave kids or anything.
I think that's also obviously abig factor that you have to
consider.
(51:28):
Um, you know, we have friendswho've, you know, even here
worried about schooling zonesand where to live and how the
kids are going to get to schooland things like that.
But you know we don't have to.
Andy (51:39):
So leave your kids, sell your house.
Alex (51:42):
Just bring the cats Just take the cats.
Shawn (51:47):
Do you speak any Maori?
I'm struggling with.
Andy (51:50):
English still.
Alex (51:50):
I feel a bit bad.
I know we know a few words hereand there, but they're trying
really hard here to make sureMaori is still included On the
signs.
If you take public transportthey always announce the next
station first in Maori and thenin English and everything.
So you pick up things here andthere and you can take lessons.
(52:11):
I've got a friend who's doingmaori lessons and every night or
whatnot, they have some classesand then like an exam and
everything and that's a bit toomuch.
I think it's stressful toprepare for all that.
But yeah, no, it justdefinitely.
Shawn (52:26):
You know it's quite quite immersive still I was watching
a house hunters internationalepisode once and it was in new
zealand and you, maori,obviously you know this, but the
W-H sound is a fa right and itwas in.
I don't remember where it was.
It wasn't Whakatane, it wassomething else Whangarei, maybe
it was Whangarei but they keptsaying the what.
Alex (52:48):
It's called Whakapapa.
Shawn (52:50):
Oh yeah, but it's literally the skiing called
fucker papa.
Oh yeah, but anyway, like let'ssay it was fungery, but they
the whole episode they kept.
The narrator kept sayingwangari, oh no, that is such a
big mistake to make.
I wonder if it was deliberatebecause they thought viewers
(53:10):
wouldn't know that the wh was afuss sound oh, and that's yeah
right, okay, yeah but it wasweird still do like a little
preamble at the start itwouldn't be that difficult.
Andy (53:22):
Yeah, but that's the right way for that language, if it's
German or French orLuxembourgish, and I'll be like
(53:42):
what did you just say?
Like she said Roger Federertoday, but she said it and was
like French in it and I was likeI have no idea who you're
talking about.
How do you say it?
Alex (53:57):
Federer.
Andy (53:58):
How do you say Roger?
Alex (54:00):
I just said Federer and he's like wait what?
Andy (54:02):
Yeah, but you said his whole name.
Alex (54:04):
Like Roger, you would say in Luxembourgish.
Andy (54:08):
So all at once.
Alex (54:10):
Roger Federer oh, okay.
Andy (54:11):
Roger Federer, you mean that's beautiful.
Oh okay, Roger Federer, youmean that's beautiful.
Shawn (54:14):
Yeah, out of context, I probably wouldn't get that
either.
Yeah, he must hate hearingAmericans say his name.
Andy (54:19):
Federer.
Pavel (54:23):
What is Sorry?
Andy (54:26):
What's my social security number?
Pavel (54:27):
Yeah, I mean like, besides Mexican food, is there
anything that you miss aboutAmerica?
Andy (54:40):
Well, I used to miss.
You know, I used to like takehalf an empty suitcase back and
then just pile it full of stuffthat I can't get here.
Alex (54:51):
Tamales, Tamales Again where was I?
Andy (54:53):
You were.
I can't get here.
Tamales, tamales.
I mean again, where would we go, tamales, you would travel.
Loose tamales no in the can.
Alex (55:01):
The ones in the can, or like the salsa verde.
Yeah, so food.
Andy (55:05):
But like everything from like clothes and tools and all
that.
But nowadays the prices therein the USs aren't really as
favorable as they are here.
They're about the same.
It's not worth it to bring backa pair of jeans and sell it on
the black market, like I wasdoing, tax-free well um oh, this
(55:30):
isn't gonna go online, is it?
Oh, this isn't going to goonline, is it?
Alex (55:33):
But you know, like Arkansas is, you know, known for
Walmart, so oftentimes you knowyou get everything in Walmart
and so whatever he could find hewould put in a suitcase.
But now going there, you almostcome out more expensive really.
So it's not even worth theextra suitcase, the extra weight
.
You have to lug around and youcan get a lot of it here anyway
(55:55):
now it is now it is yeah butwhat about, like family or old
friends?
Pavel (56:09):
oh, I'm like the first thing that we talk about is
things, things, things.
Alex (56:15):
Mexican food.
Yeah, I mean, I guess for myend, my family now is back in
headquarters in Luxembourg, soit is a lot further to go.
It's literally the other end ofthe world here.
I think the antipode ofAuckland is Madrid in Spain, so
it's literally the other end ofthe world here.
I think the antipode ofauckland is madrid in spain.
Um, so it's almost quicker tomaybe what does that mean?
Shawn (56:38):
like through the globe?
Alex (56:40):
yeah, yeah, it's not easy.
If I mean, I don't really wantto think about this too much,
but you know, in case ofemergencies or whatnot, it's not
an easy flight to hop on tothen get to the other side.
You know, you have to spend atleast two days travel time, I
think, maybe 34 hours, I think,was my record, probably and
that's getting to a big town inEurope and then getting to
(57:03):
Luxembourg.
It's always at least anotherflight somehow.
So, yeah, in that sense it's alittle bit painful seeing family
.
Yeah, in that sense it's alittle bit painful seeing family
.
Oftentimes, though, you know,because my folks are quite got
the travel bug, so we can meethalfway somewhere or try
somewhere else, which has alwaysbeen pretty neat.
(57:25):
And yeah, I mean same with yourparents, andy.
We convinced them once to meetus in Hawaii, which was really
nice because for us it's only aneight-hour flight, so that's
really nothing For them.
It was still the US, somethingthat they're familiar with.
Andy (57:40):
Domestic flights were bad.
Alex (57:42):
Oh yeah, yeah, within the US.
That's the thing, yeah, butit's still a tropical island and
we had a nice holiday andeverything, and they even came
here, so it's still it'smanageable, but, yeah, it's
definitely something that's abit difficult, you know, we
don't get to see them as much aswe want to and you do have to
(58:03):
have a plan in mind for emergingemergencies.
Andy (58:08):
Luckily for me, I can fly to dallas or houston or Houston
any given day if I need to.
I mean, I don't want to eventhink about the amount it'll
cost, but if I need to go I canget there pretty quick.
Alex (58:25):
And then find out where to get to Arkansas.
For that there might be anothertwo flights from there.
It might cost more too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shawn (58:32):
It's fine.
You know, the two flights fromthere might cost more too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's fine.
I was looking at going to uh,wisconsin, which is where I grew
up uh, to visit some family andfriends and I was just shocked
like I could get to.
I could get from seattle todublin, ireland, for hundreds of
dollars less than going towisconsin, and that was with a,
that was with a connectingflight.
Alex (58:54):
It was crazy that's crazy, yeah alex andy, thanks for
taking the time yeah, no problem, this was fun yeah, thanks and
hopefully one day you guys canmake make your way here too well
, december there is a date but aone-way about that.
Shawn (59:13):
Well, that's the plan.
So is New Zealand the answer?
That depends on your profession, your patience and your
appetite for naughty language onTV and long immigration forms.
But for those who do qualify,new Zealand offers something
rare in today's world A quiet,functional democracy, a
(59:35):
landscape that borders onspiritual and a social contract
built on trust, fairness andmodesty things that our guests
today, alex and Andy, bothhighlighted.
It's not a quick fix and it'snot an easy escape hatch from
political disillusionment.
It's a country with its ownpriorities, its own limits and
(59:57):
its own expectations for thepeople who choose to call it
home.
But if you're ready to trade inchaos for calm and culture,
wars for community gardens, newZealand might just be your next
chapter.
Next week, we're diving intosomething a little more
transactional.
Next week, we're diving intosomething a little more
transactional.
We're taking a close look atgolden passports, the world of
(01:00:17):
citizenship by investment.
Specifically, we'll look atMalta, st Kitts and Nevis and a
few other countries that willlet you buy your way into a
second passport.
We'll talk costs, ethics,loopholes and what it means when
citizenship becomes a commodity.
If you enjoyed this episode orif you found it in any way
(01:00:37):
helpful, please share it withsomeone who's thinking about
their own escape plan.
And remember, moving abroadisn't about giving up, which
nobody would blame you for, butsometimes it's about starting
fresh somewhere a little quieterand saner and safer.
This is Leaving America,because sometimes home isn't
(01:00:58):
where you started.
Thank you.
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