January 30, 2024 • 58 mins
AS IF!
This week on Deep Thoughts, Emily re-examines her favorite movie from high school: Clueless. Not only did this film kickstart Emily’s Paul Rudd appreciation, but it also provided her with some lovely examples of teen girl friendship, healthy father/daughter relationship dynamics, and how to apologize.
But it’s not all sunshine in this adaptation of Jane Austen’s Emma. Tracie and I also discuss how the film normalizes disordered relationships with food and exercise while teaching that unwanted male attention (and assault) are the price of being female–as is being shamed whether you are sexually experienced or inexperienced.
Throw on your earbuds and relive the fashion, the music, and the casual homophobia of 1995!
Mentioned in this episode:
Clueless on YouTube (with ads)
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Emily Guy-Burkin and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I will besharing my Deep Thoughts about
the 1995 film Clueless with mysister, tracy Guy Decker, and
with you.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
Because it's just pop culture,what others might deem stupid
shit?
You know matters, you knowwhat's worth talking and
thinking about, and so do we.
So come over, think with us aswe delve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
(00:40):
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
So, Trace, tell me what you remember about Clueless
.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Oh, actually I'm not 100% sure I've seen it.
If I have, it's been a longtime.
I realized that I was mixing itup with Legally Blonde, Easy to
do yeah.
So, like when we talked aboutthat, you were going to share
your deep thoughts about thisfilm.
Like I was thinking of LegallyBlonde, so I know it has Alicia
(01:21):
Silverstone in it and thecharacter's name is Cher, cher,
yes, and her best friend isBlack, right, yes, and I know
that because my daughter wantedto go for Halloween as Cher and
her best friend, who is Black,was going to be that actor whose
name I don't know, dion, thankyou.
And we bought this Halloweencostume with, like a yellow
(01:45):
plaid mini skirt and yellowplaid cardigan.
That's it, that's all I know.
So not a lot, not a lot.
I'm excited to hear from youabout this film.
So, but before we get there,like, why are we talking about
it?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
So this film came out at exactly the right time for
me.
I was 16 years old when it cameout and it was about kids who
were basically 16 years old, soit was geared specifically
towards me.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
And.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I loved it.
I loved it Now partiallybecause Paul Rudd is love
interest in it and Paul Rudd islike an angel sent down to all
of us.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
First, you know it's funny.
I just I just last nightwatched the community episode
where Jeff says religion is kindof like Paul Rudd, like I see
the appeal, like I get whypeople like it, but I wouldn't
cross the street for it.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
He's just um, he's adorable and a mensch, it seems
like, and like silly.
Mostly the adorable is what Iwas focused on back in 1995.
And the other thing about himis like they talk about he
doesn't age and you can actuallysee the difference Like he
looks so baby faced in this film, but otherwise exactly the same
(03:04):
, like he just got a little bitsharper in the intervening 30
years.
Yeah, so, paul Rudd big fan.
It is based on kind of aretelling of Jane Austen's Emma.
Oh, and I just recently foundout that Amy Heckerling, who was
(03:26):
the writer and director, shehad done Fast Times at Ridgemont
High, which I've never actuallyseen.
You know, she was interested indoing another teen film, but
she didn't want an unhappy kidand the studio executives, they
didn't want her to do a movieabout the nerds, they wanted
someone who was popular, and soshe thought back to how much she
(03:47):
enjoyed Emma, because I don'tknow if you've read Emma, no,
that's not what I've read.
Okay, so Emma is this veryprivileged, kind of spoiled
young woman, but she has thisgood heart and she is just very
like a happy go lucky person,and so she does things that are
(04:10):
not necessarily great, butalways from a good place.
She doesn't recognize her ownprivilege and that can cause
people to be hurt sometimes, butagain, she doesn't mean
anything by it and the story isa little bit about her growth
and her becoming a better personis a little too strong, but
growing into her good heart andshe's a very sunny character.
(04:32):
So Amy Heckerling was like okay, what if we put that character
in Beverly Hills in currenttimes, 1995.
I really, really, as I said, itwas geared specifically towards
me.
I was exactly the right age.
It was very, very funny.
It was a sweet romantic comedyand it took being a teenager
(04:58):
seriously in a way that I reallyliked.
I really appreciated it at thetime.
I also have a very personalreason.
Our stepfather got reallyoffended by the trailers showing
Alicia Silverstone going as ifwhen a boy tries to put his arm
(05:19):
around her, and I remember himsaying like when he lived in
California that was how thewomen treated him and how it
really bothered him.
And so I liked this film, inpart because it was just like it
shows that she's absolutelycorrect in saying like get off
of me.
Unfortunately, I watched itagain last night and
(05:44):
Unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I really think we should rename this podcast to
Tracey and Emily.
Destroy their Childhoods.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yes, so there's still some loveliness in there.
It still passes the Bec DelTest.
It's still a very fluffy moviein that the stakes are never
that high and everything turnsout okay and that's lovely.
But it hasn't aged that well ina lot of ways.
(06:16):
So I kind of want to talk alittle bit about what hasn't
aged well, particularlysurrounding the idea of consent,
what hasn't aged well in termsof privilege and language.
And then there is a gaycharacter, and what was maybe
progressive at the time is nowfeels a little squeaky, and so I
(06:40):
kind of want to talk about allof that and kind of like dive
into what works and what doesn'tin this film.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Okay, cool.
So well, let's start, since Idon't remember at all, like
what's the basic plot line.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Okay, so Cher Horowitz is at the time?
Oh, she's Jewish.
They never say.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Okay, but Horowitz.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
But Horowitz Jewish or.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
German.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
And her father is Mel Horowitz.
Melvin Horowitz, yeah, okay,played by Dan Hedea, who is of
Jewish descent.
So who?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
knows.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Cool, okay.
So Cher Horowitz is, when wemeet her, 15 years old.
She's the daughter of a widower, mel, who is a litigator.
He's a big litigator.
She describes him as he getspaid $500 an hour to argue with
people.
But he can argue with me forfree because I'm his daughter
(07:41):
and he's a very scary litigator.
So even they're made Lucy isterrified of him.
She runs away from him when shesees him.
Her mother died when she was ababy in a freak liposuction
accident or something like that,and she's one of the most
popular kids in school, her bestfriend, dionne.
(08:01):
They're friends because Dionnealso knows what it's like to
have people who are jealous ofher, and they're both named for
important singers fromyesteryear.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Oh, so Dionne is named after Dionne Warwick.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yes.
So Dionne has a boyfriend namedMurray who they kind of argue
all the time.
Cher has made it clear that shethinks it's that high school
boys are not worth her time.
There is a new girl who comesto school named Ty, who is kind
of dressed a little frumpily andthe first thing she does is she
(08:33):
, she and I did not understandthis at the time.
She's like I really can't gofor some herbal refreshments and
they're like we don't have teabut there's a Coke machine.
So Ty was kind of a stoner.
Ty immediately meets and likesa boy named Travis Birkenstock
who is the school stoner.
But Cher tells her no, he isnot good enough for you.
(08:57):
You need to date one of thepopular boys.
And so Cher does a makeover forTy and like gives her all new
clothes, rinses out the pinkcoloring she has in her hair and
like tries to improve her.
And that is straight from theJane Austen.
Cher has a sort of stepbrothernamed Josh.
(09:20):
Early on Mel says to Cher yourbrother is coming for dinner,
just like why you haven't beenmarried to his mother for years
and it only lasts a couple weeks.
And he says we divorce wives,not children.
And so Josh is welcome in theirhome anytime.
He hangs out a lot.
That is Paul Rudd.
(09:41):
He is about three, four yearsolder than Cher.
He's in college and he is ado-gooder type.
When we first see him, he'swearing an Amnesty International
shirt and listening toComplaint.
Rock is the way that Cher putsit.
Josh tells Cher that she's kindof shallow and she's like no,
no, I'm trying to make the worldbetter for other people.
(10:02):
So, for instance, she gets abad grade from her teacher, mr
Hall, who was played by WallaceSean Vassini, and she tries to
argue her way into a bettergrade which succeeds with all
the other teachers but not withMr Hall.
And so she's like what can I doto get him to give better
grades?
(10:23):
And she realizes he's 37.
He's single.
He's making like minor ducketsin this thankless job.
What he needs is a point fest.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
That's what Cher says .
Cher says At 16?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Oh.
So she decides to try to.
She engineers a romance betweenMr Hall and Ms Geist, who is
her, I think, english teacherand who is also very much a
do-gooder.
She does kind of amuch-do-about-nothing, like, oh,
I heard Ms Geist said thisabout you.
And then she puts a rose and anote with a quote Shakespeare
(11:02):
quote in Ms Geist's mailbox inthe office.
A couple of different thingslike that.
She gives that as her proof toJosh, like, hey, I'm helping two
lonely teachers find love.
She's like yeah, I'm sure it'sfor your benefit.
And then he meets Ty and she'slike look, I'm bringing her
under my wing.
And he again is like not really.
(11:24):
So Cher tries to encourage Tyto date a boy named Elton.
This is again straight out ofEmma.
It was Mr Elton who was aclergyman, which is why.
So Tracy and I just recentlytalked about Pride and Prejudice
and we were talking about MrCollins and there's some aspects
(11:47):
of it that feel very real, andwe were talking I know that Jane
Austen was never married, butshe did have one proposal.
It was from a clergyman, it wasafter she would have been on
the shelf, so to speak, and soit was like her last chance at
marriage and she accepted himthe night that he had proposed.
(12:09):
She slept on it.
The next morning, said nope,never mind.
And I believe that thatclergyman must have been awful
because all the clergyman MrCollins in Pride and Prejudice,
mr Elton in Emma are awful.
So Elton actually is notinterested in Ty, just as Mr
(12:29):
Elton was not interested in andI cannot remember, I think it
was Harriet was the name ofEmma's protege he is actually
interested in Cher.
They're at a party, theyengineer something.
So that Elton engineer something, so that he's giving Cher a
ride home and he pulls over andis trying to kiss her and she's
saying no, no, I'm trying to getyou together with Ty.
(12:52):
He's like why would I be withTy?
You and I make sense.
Me and Ty don't make sense.
You know who my father is andhe will not take no for an
answer.
Literally Like he keeps tryingto kiss her and she gets out of
the car and then he tries onceto get her back in the car and
then he speeds away.
She's then held at gunpoint andshe calls Whoa, yeah, yeah, so
(13:14):
it's a guy robs her.
They make a joke of it Like hetakes her cell phone and they
takes her her purse and then hesays, lie down on the ground
while I leave.
And she's like and she'swearing a designer dress.
She's like this isn't a liar.
He's like on a what.
She's like it's a reallyimportant designer.
And he's like I will shoot youin the head, lie down.
(13:36):
So she lies down.
She's most upset about thedress, which is kind of like
shown as proof that she'sshallow.
And so she goes to a pay phoneand the only person she can
think up to call to get her isJosh.
So, um, is her dad?
Does she know her dad hasalready called her and told her
you have to be home in 20minutes, or else Because she has
(13:58):
afraid.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Oh, I see, okay, yeah , classic, she needs shenanigans
.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah.
So Josh happens to be have agirl over at his dorm and so the
girl and Josh come pick upshare.
Her name is Heather.
Heather is arguing with Joshabout something and ends with
it's just like Hamlet said tothe unknown self be true.
And share says Hamlet didn'tsay that and like this girl is
(14:25):
like clearly judging share,she's like I think I remember my
Hamlet correctly and share sayswell, I remember Mel Gibson
correctly and he didn't say it,polonius did.
So we're starting to see likeJosh recognizes there's more to
share than meets the eye.
Share has to tell Ty about whatElton did Was.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Ty into Elton.
Ty was devastated.
Oh, she was into Elton.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
She was.
Yes, and it's not that she was.
It was that her new friends whowere being so nice to her were
kept pushing her sort of thing.
But yeah, and she's not quite16.
Yeah, yeah, at that point itgets to be where Ty becomes more
popular than shared us atschool.
There's a couple thingshappening that that caused that
(15:10):
to happen.
And then a new boy comes toschool.
His name is Christian, andshare, who had been wanting to
like find a boy to help tie itover her heartbreak is like well
, I guess there's no problemwith me finding love too.
She's really into Christian.
She has him come over to herhouse like they go to a party
(15:32):
together.
When he comes over to her houseit's just the two of them and
she is planning for this to beher losing her virginity.
And halfway through the eveninghe runs away.
When she's talking to Dion, herfriend, about it in front of
Murray, dion's boyfriend, he's.
He lets them know thatChristian is gay, the way that
(15:54):
it's.
He describes it like sharestalking about it and Murray like
busts out laughing.
And then he says he's a friendof Dorothy.
He's a disco dancing.
Asked a while reading Streisandlistening and like so Ty then
(16:15):
tells share that she's into Josh.
Ty is into Josh, josh thebrother, the brother the sort of
yeah, paul Rudd because he'sbeen very kind to her, because
he's a nice guy and not nice guyTM, but nice guy Ty and share
get into an argument becauseshare is like defensive of the
(16:37):
idea that Ty has has a crush onJosh.
Not good enough for.
Josh yeah, she doesn't say thatshe's actually very like.
Do you really think that you'dbe a good fit for him?
She then realizes that she hasa crush on on Josh.
During that time, travis, thestoner kid meets up with share,
(16:59):
who has decided to head thePismo Beach disaster relief team
.
That's a made up disaster, okay, because she's decided she
wants to to have a makeover ofher soul, and so she's.
She's like getting all thisstuff and using her, her
popularity, for a good cause.
When Travis comes, like they're,they're gathering everything
(17:19):
from canned goods to like tohousewares.
And he brings his old bongs andsays you know, I'm giving these
away, but far be it from me tostop anyone else from enjoying.
And then he apologizes forsomething that happened at the
party and because he's in, he'snow in a 12 step program, he
says, and he now, being sober,he's finding it's, it's really
(17:43):
clarifying his skateboarding.
And he invites share to see himat a skateboarding thing I
don't know what you'd call itAnyway.
So share and Ty meet up there.
They both apologize to eachother and sparks fly between
Travis and Ty and share realizesshe doesn't, she doesn't have
(18:04):
to worry about Ty being in lovewith Josh Movie comes to an end
when Josh and share share theirfeelings for each other.
And then the very final scene.
You see them like, they gettogether, they kiss and then
share says you know what happensnext.
And you see a bride in a groom.
You're like what?
And she's like no, I'm only 17or 16, whatever it is.
(18:25):
And this is, this is California, not Kentucky.
I'm like hmm, and then you zoomin and it's miss, miss Geist
and Mr Hall getting married, andshare is actually one of the
bridesmaids.
And so the end of the film isthe three girls.
So share, ty and Dion among theother people trying to get the
bouquet.
(18:45):
So there's a lot there.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
All right, where do you want to start?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Let's start with consent, because it's the.
That was the thing that reallybothered me, as I, as I
mentioned, like personallybecause of the way our father
responded to like that moment inthe trailer, I was like annoyed
and loved the film.
What happens when you see hersay as if is she's walking on
(19:13):
campus at her high school andthis boy comes over and grabs
her, puts his arm around hershoulder and goes to kiss her on
the cheek, I think and shepushes him off and goes as if,
which she has every right to do.
And that reaction of as if asif I would be interested in you
(19:34):
is perfectly reasonable forsomeone who was so transgressed
her boundaries, sure, and Cheris always kind-hearted Like.
She's not doing this becausehe's not like her.
He's doing this because he'sbeing a jerk Transgressed her
boundary right.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
It's not because he's unworthy of love or attention.
It's because he yeah.
It's about his action, not hisbeing yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
So the problem is the scene where Elton is giving her
the ride home and then kissesher against her will twice, like
she makes it clear no, I'm notinterested in you, I was trying
to get you with Ty, no, and shegets out of the car.
So Cher does a voiceoverthroughout the film and after
(20:21):
she's robbed and she's going tofind the pay phone, she says
like sexually assaulted,abandoned, robbed, and now I had
to get home, or something likethat.
The thing is the way that thevoiceover is given.
It is played as a joke that shewould use the term sexually
(20:44):
assaulted Like that she isoverreacting.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
She's exaggerating what happened.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, and that is like that really bothered me a
lot, because Elton has her inhis car and he is not listening
to her and he has two or threetimes reached for her to kiss
her when she has made it clearthat she is not interested.
And in 1995, I know weconsidered that like whatever
(21:16):
it's you know, so it was anormal.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, but that really Doesn't age well, it's
different.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah Well, especially when you think about, like what
lessons that gave 16 year oldEmily about what was acceptable,
just as the cost of beingfemale Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yeah, then the other thing that really hit wrong
particularly because of how muchI love this actor and I loved
this character is Cher callsJosh at his dorm and you hear
the phone ring and you see legslike panning up as like they're
both dressed, but what you hearis Josh say, oh, come on to
(21:59):
Heather, the girl he has at hisdorm in his dorm room.
Oh, like he's coercing her,mm-hmm, and no idea, no idea
what that's actually supposed tobe.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
But considering what just happened, yeah, yeah, it's
kind of ugly and just Certainlythe implication is there, even
if that, like there are othercontexts in which I mean he
could have been saying like oh,come on, hamlet is a good play.
Like don't, don't bag on Hamlet.
But given context, that doesseem to be sort of what we're
(22:32):
meant to.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Well, I think there's like kissing noises too In that
moment.
Even more so then.
Yeah, so, and you know,flirting while kissing like, oh,
come on, you can't believe thatthat is true.
Yeah, whatever, but justimplications not great.
So that that really had me alittle bit concerned.
(22:57):
So there are two lines in thisfilm that are so funny that I
one of them I don't know if it'sstill funny, but they, like it,
always cracked me up in the 90s.
When Christian comes to pickand share up, he does not make a
good first impression on herfather.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
He's the turns out to be gay guy.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Yes, yeah, and he's got a very like James Dean kind
of vibe going.
Well, no, james Dean's verylike, he's very well dressed.
And he comes in and he's likenice pile of breccia, got here
to share his father and sharehis father says do you drink?
And Christian goes no, I'm good, he's like no.
(23:37):
I'm asking you if you drink.
Do you think I'm offering adrink to the underage driver
who's taking my teenage daughterout?
So Cher comes down.
She's wearing a dress that isvery her dad calls it.
It looks like underwear.
It's short, it's very formfitting and he's like put
something on over it.
She's like, oh, I was justgoing to, and what she puts on
(23:59):
is like sheer.
So but anyway, as she's goingto get the top, the dad says
something along the lines of asfor you, you've got a 45 and a
shovel.
I doubt anyone would miss you,which I thought was hilarious in
1995.
But it's like, and he saidsomething like if anything bad
(24:21):
happens to my daughter orsomething like that, but Wow,
yeah, but again hits differentin 2024.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yeah, yeah.
So Dress of gun violence alwaysfunny yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
The other aspect.
So there's two other thingsabout consent that I wanted to
talk about.
One is how the character ofChristian is handled.
So there are a couple of thingswhere other people see so he
takes her to a party wherethere's dancing and other people
see like he's dancing with her,but then kind of dancing with a
(24:57):
guy.
And then there's, and Josh seesthis and sees him like there's
a girl comes over and puts herhand on his, on his shoulder,
while he's getting a drink fromat the bar and he like, like
Pushing her away.
Yeah, moves it, and then istalking to the bartender like
you know, flirting basicallywith the bartender, who's a guy,
and so all Cher seizes himremoving the girl's hand,
(25:20):
thinking like oh, he's so intome.
And then Josh sees these otherinteractions, so like there are
hints that he is gay, that she'sjust kind of not naive exactly,
but just isn't picking up one.
She's missing, missing.
So how Murray knows that he'sgay is not clear.
But I think the movie is tryingto suggest like if you weren't
(25:45):
naive you'd know, because hebrings home, like when he comes
to her house he brings Spartacusand I can't remember the other
one but Tony Curtis films.
When we first meet him he'sreading a book by William S
Burroughs and he asked her shelikes Billie Holiday and like
some of these are like.
Ok, I know that is a marker,but are these others?
(26:08):
I don't know.
I will say another line that isactually funny is she's like, so
maybe it's for the best?
And this is before Murray tellsher that he's gay.
She's like maybe it's for thebest.
He does dress better than I do,so what would I bring to the
relationship?
But that struck me as a littlebit well, it's handled so
(26:31):
differently than how it would behandled today.
For one thing, I feel liketoday's teenagers like a
16-year-old in 2024, would havea better sense of the fact that
gay people exist.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Yeah, I mean our whole society has been queered
in the best possible way since1995.
I mean we were still in themiddle of Don't Ask, don't Tell
in 1995.
Yes, you know.
So it was not that it's safebut, it's safer, it's safer.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Especially in Beverly Hills, I mean.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, yeah, I mean in 1995, it was not safe for a lot
of queer folks to just be outand open and openly acknowledged
.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
And there is a point where it makes sense because
she's clearly disappointed.
When he's leaving, he's likeI'm tired, I think I'm going to
head home, because he realizeswhat's going on.
And there's a point where hecould tell her and doesn't, and
he's like we're friends, right,you know, you're my home girl,
give me a kiss on the cheek, andhe's clearly trying to make her
(27:42):
feel better but doesn't comeout there, which is perfectly
within his rights.
But that was something that Ifound really odd.
Was the not odd?
It hits different now than itdid 30 years ago that he's outed
using this string ofstereotypes by another character
(28:08):
yeah, who's a guy?
Yeah, and it's kind ofindicated that this is her being
naive rather than it being justnot something she noticed,
which doesn't mean naive.
Then the one other thing that Ifound very odd was so how Ty
(28:31):
becomes more popular at schoolis Christian, cher and Ty are
all at the mall.
Ty has met two boys, young men,who she's talking to.
She's there on the upper levelof the mall and she's sitting on
the railing and the two boysare above the level, which
already that would make menervous.
(28:52):
But sitting there flirting withthese two guys who have their
arms around her keeping herupright.
On that we cut to Cher andChristian talking about oh,
she's talking to those randos.
And then we hear her scream andlook over and they are tipping
her over oh, wow, yeah, and justbeing complete assholes.
(29:15):
And Christian runs over, getsher off and pushes the guy Like
what are you doing?
You could have killed someone.
This is so not OK.
And after that she at school istalking about her near-death
experience and the way thatCher's voiceover talks about it
(29:35):
really minimizes how awful itwas.
And then the way that the filmhas her like talking about her
near-death experience, she'slike, oh, you just get this
spiritual clarity when you'realmost dying.
And like everyone's likewrapped and really interested
and like it minimizes howterrifying that would have been
(29:58):
in a way that I just don't thinkis appropriate.
Like she's a kid, yeah, andthese boys she was flirting with
decided to do something trulytraumatic to her.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
And cruel.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yeah, it sounds to me like, though, one of the things
that you said about why youliked it, this film, was that it
took being a teenager seriously.
What I'm hearing is that,actually, it really minimized
some kind of serious things thatit depicts.
You know, like you said, thestakes are never that high,
(30:34):
which I hear is accurate, andalso there are these moments
where the stakes actually arerelatively high for the
individuals involved, and thenthe film, the movie makers,
really minimize those stakes,which is a really interesting
thing to see on reflection, whenone of the things that
attracted you to it was the lowstakes and the taking the
(30:55):
teenage life seriously.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Yeah it's.
The film is partially a satire.
I mean it's satirizing likewealthy people, shallow people,
it's satirizing teenagers aswell, and it's like winking at
the audience as it's doing it.
But it's also like undercuttingit Right by making it clear
(31:20):
that's like yeah, that was.
That was idiotic of Cher not torealize this and you know those
sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Well, and to wink at the audience to say like, yeah,
she thinks that was sexualassault, but we all know that's
just the cost of being female.
And to wink at the audience andsay, you know she's getting
she's trading on her quote,unquote near death experience,
when really it was just someguys flirting with her.
Yeah, exactly, danger isflirting, mm-hmm which is
(31:53):
terrifying.
And like this is not the onlyexample where that we could
probably find, where that is amessage we've been given right,
like even the he's probablyhitting you because he likes you
that we tell to little girls,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yeah, he's pulling on your pigtails because he likes
you Exactly Great, so he'scausing me pain.
Fantastic, thank you.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
And well, because the message in that, in saying that
, is that you should be grateful, flattered, yeah yeah, so that
was that was.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
I am curious because this line is still so perfectly
written that I don't know ifit's like so there's a scene
where they are in gym class,they're all waiting in line to
play tennis, they've got a oneof those automatic tennis ball
throwers things, and Cher issurprised by it.
(32:59):
She's like oh my goodness, thisis a lawsuit waiting to happen.
So the teacher's like all right, fine, deon, you're up.
And Deon says I have a notefrom my tennis coach that has
asked me not to do anything thatwould interrupt his teaching of
me.
So it's usually like fine, allright, amber.
And Amber is the closest thingto an antagonist.
(33:20):
She just she doesn't like Cherand is kind of like low-key mean
to her sometimes.
And so Amber says my plasticsurgeon has told me that I
cannot do anything where ballsfly at my face.
And Deon says well, there goesyour social life, oh shit.
(33:44):
Roger Ebert described that lineas worth the price of admission
.
He actually, and he saidthere's a line that I cannot
repeat here because of thefamily newspaper that is worth
the price of admission.
I'm like it's that one.
The one other thing I thinkworth mentioning that I forgot
to say at the beginning is theamount of weight and food and
(34:09):
exercise talk.
That is really Fatphobic.
It's fatphobic and it's alsolike it's disordered.
I mean, alicia Silverstone isAlicia Silverstone yeah, she's
phenomenally gorgeous and thereare.
(34:30):
She talks about calories.
She talks about like oh, it wasreally bad.
And she's used this as anexcuse for why she's acting
weird, because it's one of thetimes when she's like, oh, it's
so bad.
I had two mochachinos and fivepeanut M&Ms and this list of
foods.
They show her exercising withThai.
We need to improve our bodiesand our minds.
(34:53):
There's quite a bit of stufflike that and it was so normal
in 1995.
I didn't even recall that it wasa lot of weight.
I didn't even recall that itwas in there.
Yeah, and like just thenormality of a teenage girl.
(35:18):
Of course she's worried abouther weight, of course she's
thinking about her food.
Yeah, the scene where she'strying to figure out, like when
she decides Mr Hall needs agirlfriend, she's like all right
, who wants staff?
And so they see her goingthrough the staff, like lounge,
where she's like, okay, well,the trolls in the math
department are all actuallymarried.
And then she sees someone'slunch.
(35:40):
She's like, ooh, snickers,which, I'm wondering, was
product placement, but it wasstill just like, oh, I'm
sidetracked.
And some of that's like, okay,she's a teenager, chocolate, yes
, but the way that she talksabout food throughout, I don't
know, it's just weird.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
So, yeah, I want to come back to the balls on her
face thing.
Yes, because it is funny andalso like the more I sit with it
, especially thinking aboutother ways in which, like with
the food and the exercise youare describing an impossible
(36:22):
expectation right that AliciaSilverstone would be kind of put
in such a light that we would Idon't know think about her as
like denying herself theSnickers and like she thinks
that she's going crazy becauseshe had five M&Ms or something.
And that in context with thatballs joke where Amber's being
(36:43):
shamed for being sexually activewhile we know Cher was planning
on losing her virginity toChristian, there is some.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
To be fair, she's actually more, not shamed, but
like about being a virgin.
So like when Ty first comes tothe school, cher says you have
something that no one else herehas.
And she's like, oh, I'm not avirgin.
And Cher goes, no, no, no, no,mystique, because you're new
here.
And then, after she learns thatElton isn't interested in her,
(37:18):
she and Deanna and Cher go tocheer her up like they go go get
lunch and go to a movie, and sothey're like admiring the
waiters at this, at thisrestaurant, and Ty says
something like, oh, I don't careif they're muscular or not
muscular, as long as there youknow what isn't crooked.
And shares like huh, and Dionsays, oh, don't mind, share, she
(37:44):
doesn't know.
And like your version.
And and Dion's like no, no, no,pc term is hymen only
challenged.
And so they have this longconversation about the fact that
she, she hasn't had sex yet,but neither has.
Dion was like you know, becauseshares like you, you're one to
talk, dion.
She's like whoa, my man issatisfied, but technically I am
a virgin.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
So there's some weird stuff in there about so like,
okay, all right, so now I havemore information.
So that reminds me ofconversations we had when we
talked about Twilight, where weend up in situations where girls
are expected to guard theirvirginity, as in intercourse,
(38:30):
and then do other things thatthey maybe don't want to do, you
know to to be hip or popular orbecause that's the cost of
being female.
And you know actually, thislike, oh, she doesn't know.
That goes along with the moviereally telling us that if share
(38:51):
were more sexually experienced,she would know the Christian was
gay as well.
Mm-hmm, yeah, and I have to saynow I'm certain I have not seen
this film.
Now, now that you've explainedthe whole plot, I have not seen
this film, so I haven't seen it.
And it's 30 years old and I'm alittle disturbed by this notion
(39:14):
that this 16 year old issomehow being shamed or kind of
looked down upon because she'snot more sexually experienced,
because she's 16 and like and itI don't know if, with Dionne
saying that what you just shared, like it feels like again where
(39:37):
I was going in the first place,that there's this, this
impossible expectation that thischild should be worldly and
sexually knowledgeable but alsovirginal, and that you know we
look at least some people, ourstepfather, look down on her,
(40:01):
for her, as if in defending herbodily autonomy, but also were
she completely obviouslyoverreacted drama queen that she
called Elton trying to kiss hersexual assault, like it just
it's damned if you do and damnedif you don't.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
I will say I really appreciated it.
Like in that scene, cher sayswell, look at it this way, you
see how particular I am about myshoes and they only go on my
feet.
I love that.
That's fantastic.
(40:45):
So like I mean that AmyHackerling in a lot of ways gave
some really good examples fordealing with this, like that is
a fantastic response that's agreat response yeah, yes and she
was working in 1995, so she hadto get it made yes, so we see
(41:05):
the relationship between Dionneand Murray and they're
constantly bickering and it'ssupposed to be kind of a like
like a joke, like a joke thatthey bicker like an old married
couple, although the first thinghe says like he keeps calling
her woman and she keeps saying,like I've repeatedly asked you
not to do that.
And he says, is it at that timeof the month which, oh yucky.
(41:30):
But later on, when Cher is liketrying to to improve herself,
she's like I noticed howeveryone has different strengths
, things that are good and solike, like how Christian wants
everything to be beautiful andinteresting and this, that and
the other.
And then Murray and Dionne areso considerate of each other
when no one's watching, and soit's to be this idea that like
(41:53):
they are putting on thisperformance for other people,
but they really are together.
And there's a at the at theparty.
Dionne freaks out becauseMurray is started shaving his
head at the party and she's likethis is just before yearbook
photos.
What am I gonna tell mygrandchildren?
And then she's like all right,that's it, I'm calling your
mother.
Which is the hilarious thing isit's Donald Faison is plays
(42:20):
Murray.
He was in scrubs, if that's okayhe.
I knew this because I watchedthis movie so many times as a
teenager.
He's bald the entire time.
You just see him with hats on,and I've never seen Donald
Faye's on with hair.
He always is bald.
So what?
They have this whole scene andyou believe it at the time, but
(42:43):
you never see him without a hatother than that scene.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
The actor was bald the whole time.
That's funny.
Yeah, so did we cover what youwanted to cover?
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
I do want to say there are some things that hold
up well, the soundtrack for one.
It's a fantastic soundtrack.
The final scene is like thevery last image is Cher and Josh
sharing a kiss at the wedding.
It is so hot, seriously.
(43:16):
If you get a chance, just watchthe last kiss, the last spot,
and the film is quotable.
It's whether or not thosequotes hold up.
There's also there's somelanguage.
So, for instance, one of thethings that Cher does to get Mr
(43:37):
Hall and Miss Geist together isshe gives him some coffee and
she says that she mixed up herlemon snapple with her father's
Italian roast that morning, andso does he want it?
Maybe Miss Geist would wantsome, but the way she describes
it is like I was a total R wordand mixed up the lemon sample.
And then there's a.
There's a point where I thinkTy calls herself a tarred and so
(44:02):
, like that, completely slippedon the radar in the in the 90s.
Yeah yeah, the fashions are alsonow part of this is my fashion
sense was forged in the fires of1995.
But the the fashion is alsoreally, really amazing.
My kid looked really cute inthat.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Oh yeah, that's Halloween costume, like I was
like oh, this is really adorable.
You sure you don't want to wearit?
Yeah, no mom.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
So like it's.
It's the kind of baby dolldresses paired with that that
they're.
Cher never pairs them with likeDoc Martens, but you see Doc
Martens and stuff like that andthat was like high socks like me
socks, yeah, socks up over theknee, yep, I mean the fashion is
also a little bit weird too,because there's a there's very
much a sexualizing element ofthese teen girls and I don't you
(45:00):
know watching it this timearound.
I remember I was thinking, likethose skirts are super short,
like super short.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
Yeah, super short.
Anything else that you want tolift up, that does still hold up
.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
I do like the friendships between the three
girls is is it's nice to see itdoes pass the back deltas, as I
mentioned.
So like you've got the threegirls now.
They talk about boys a lot, butthey also talk about clothes
and they talk about test scoresand they talk about their
parents and you know so thatthere's they talk about driving,
(45:40):
so it does feel like a wellrounded.
Look at what girl that's.
What kind of what I mean aboutit took teenagers seriously,
like they're not one dimensional, even though that is the way
people look at Cher.
They assume she's onedimensional and she is not.
And so the relationshipsbetween these three three girls
(46:06):
is also like worth looking at,because I don't know how often
we get examples of femalefriendship at all.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Yeah, no, we really don't.
I mean, I think, doing thisproject with you, I've really
started to notice just how oftenit's like, if we have a female
protagonist, then she's likeHermione, like the one girl in
the core group, or she's, youknow, the not like other girls
exceptional character who has nopeers like Bell or or like
(46:43):
Scully Scully.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, well, and that's Cher.
She starts off by saying likeyou know, the opening shot is a
whole bunch of like thingshappening, like kids at a pool
party and stuff like that inBeverly Hills, so like super,
super wealthy and shares firstline.
And as voiceover is like I knowwhat you're thinking, is this
an oxyma commercial?
And then she says but Iactually have a way, normal life
(47:08):
for a teenage girl.
And then they show you the waysthat she doesn't, because she
is so wealthy, but she doesn'twant to be on anything other
than a normal teenage girl.
She doesn't consider herself tobe anything other than a normal
teenage girl.
And that is refreshing.
Yeah, as is.
I also really appreciate therelationship between Cher and
(47:30):
her father.
They clearly really love eachother.
When she she gets a report cardand she tells her father it's
not ready yet, he's like what doyou mean?
It's not ready yet.
She's like well, I'm usingthese grades as a jumping off
point for negotiation.
And so when she finally getsthe report card back, she tells
him like.
He asks like did you do extracredit?
(47:50):
Did you?
Do you know anything to improvethese grades?
She's like no, this is entirelybased on my power of persuasion
and he says honey, I couldn'tbe more proud than if they were
based on real grades, becausethat's what he does for a living
.
So their relationship is is.
Is this lovely relationshipalso based on Emma?
(48:12):
Because Emma's father is likekind of a miz and throat but
like a funny one.
It's similar to to Mel.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
The line that you shared about Josh actually I
found very poignant.
We divorce, not children.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Yes, and that's also really the fact that Josh is
always welcome in the Horowitzhouse is lovely and it's really
clear that Mel may be gruff,like the first time he meets.
Ty share has her over fordinner and Ty is sitting in
(48:47):
Mel's normal seat and sharesgoing.
Daddy, this is my friend Ty,and he goes get out of my seat.
She looks up and moves over,but the gruffness is like he's
got a heart of gold really andCher knows how to wrap him
around her finger.
But he also, she also listensto him.
For instance, like she's shedrives even though she doesn't
(49:08):
have a license and she has a cartheir dad bought her even
though she doesn't have alicense.
And he gets like a secondnotification of three different
tickets.
She's like that's funny, Idon't remember getting a first
notification.
He's like the ticket is thefirst notification.
I didn't even know he couldtake it if he didn't have a
driver's license.
She's like, oh, you can get aticket anytime.
And he says to her like youcannot drive that car unless
(49:32):
there is a licensed driver therewith you, and so and instead of
just going and doing whatevershe wants because she could,
because he is always busy andall of that and, like she's
already been driving without alicense, she immediately goes
and says all right, josh, comewith me, you're a licensed
driver with nothing to do.
So like it's a lovely dynamicthat I really appreciate,
(50:00):
especially now as a parent of analmost I mean, I guess he's a
teenager, he's 13.
Yeah, that give and take, thatit shows like a long, lasting,
loving parent-child relationship.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
Yeah Well, should I try and summarize what we talked
about?
I will try.
It will be invisible to ourlisteners, but we've been
interrupted a couple times, so Iwill try to remember what we
talked about.
So Clueless with AliciaSilverstone.
It passes the back-tail testand it sounds like there's some
really positive and well-roundedfemale characters in this that
(50:38):
we can feel good about, butthere are also some lessons
about the cost of being femalein terms of men's attention and
what we just have to accept asnormal.
There's also some kind of whatfeels weird in 2024 ways of
(51:00):
talking about and makingassumptions about gay men in
particular Probably queer folksin general, though it sounds
like it was specifically a gaycharacter.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
And there's also the gym teacher.
There's a little bit of a jokeabout the gym teacher in the
long history of female gymteachers.
Oh, a lesbian gym teacher.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
It seems like it's oriented yeah, yeah.
So some representation aroundqueer folks that doesn't hold up
to today's standards.
I also heard a bit aboutdisordered eating and attention
to the female body that feelunhealthy by today's standards.
(51:47):
Some basic stuff aroundlanguage, the R word that
mainstream American culture justhad not seen in 1995, but that
really stands out today.
Let me think, what else did wetalk about?
I was struck by the impossiblesituation of sexuality where
(52:12):
Sharon and her friends areexpected to be sexually
knowledgeable but not sexuallyavailable, or at least not well,
I was going to say at least notfor vaginal intercourse.
But it's not just that, becausethe antagonist gets burned for
(52:34):
a reputation of oral sex.
So there's some just thisimpossible context for these
teenage girls.
Good soundtrack, fun, fashion,quotable lines which may or may
not hold up 30 years later.
What am I forgetting?
Speaker 1 (52:56):
Just a lovely father-daughter relationship,
which I mean it would be greatif we're a mother-daughter
relationship, because we don'tget enough of that.
But it is based on Emma, whichdid have the similar sort of
dynamic between Emma and MrWoodhouse, her father.
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Yeah, I, have forgotten that piece.
Speaker 1 (53:18):
I didn't name it all that this is based on.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Jane Austen, In part, actually.
That background was reallyinteresting to me, that the
movie maker wanted to makeanother teenage movie but she
didn't want an unhappyprotagonist.
Speaker 1 (53:33):
Or cynicism.
There's a lot of cynicism inmovies made for teens or about
teens, and so she wanted somesunshine, and that's one of the
things that's so charming aboutthe film is that Cher is a
lovely kid, in the sense of shereally does mean well and she
(53:53):
really does want to do better,and all of her missteps come
from a good place and are thesorts of things a 16-year-old
would need to learn, and so onewould presume that 44-year-old
Cher out there now is a mensch.
She's out there being a menschand being good to her friends
(54:16):
and family and maybe still alittle clueless about how her
privilege may come across, butdisarming people because she
wants to help anyway.
Speaker 2 (54:27):
And that was something also that we noted at
the end is that herrelationships do actually all of
them sound pretty genuine, likewith Tai, with Dion, with her
dad, with Josh.
It sounds like they all are,you know, despite coming at them
, like Tai in particular, likeas you were telling me what
happened.
That does not sound like agenuine way to approach a
(54:49):
friendship.
But the fact that they thenfight and then make up that
sounds actually based in genuinemutual regard.
Speaker 1 (54:59):
Yes, yes, and even like her, she ends up saying
that Christian becomes herfavorite shopping buddy, and
like when she's thinking of allthe good things about her
different friends, like I lovewhat she says about him.
She wants everything to bebeautiful and interesting.
You know what a lovely thing tosay about a person.
And so, yes, there's, there's agenuineness to all of her
(55:20):
relationships and even when shemesses up, she makes it right.
In a way that is, it provides agood example for how to fix
when things, when you do thingswrong, and provides a good
example for for, like, a goodhearted apologies and that sort
of thing.
Speaker 2 (55:39):
All right, well, maybe I'll put it on my watch
list.
Speaker 1 (55:44):
It's free on YouTube with ads.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
Okay, so.
So next time I am going tobring you my deep thoughts about
the Breakfast Club, and Iunderstand that you have some
listener comments that youwanted to share.
Let's hear them.
Speaker 1 (56:04):
So a couple of listener comments.
My friend, eric, who is marriedto Joanna, said about a
Christmas story.
Joanna loves this movie, I hateit.
To which Joanna responded Ikeep telling Eric we have a
perfect leg lamp front window,but he hates it so much you
won't take the bait.
And I've seen their frontwindow.
It's.
She's correct, that would bethe perfect front window for the
(56:25):
leg lamp.
Crystal said about labyrinths.
I love this movie as a kid.
I definitely need to watch itas an adult.
And then she did a crying emojicrying, laughing, which is
because, yeah, yes, it sits alittle different when you see it
as a grown up.
Yeah, and then finally, aboutthe Buffy episode.
James said I loved this episode.
It allowed me to geek out for abit on one of my favorites and
(56:48):
I wholly appreciated the everexpanding viewpoints on the show
.
It also made me realize that,as we grow up, it's truly
disturbing to see how some ofour favorite creators have
turned into raging assholes.
Speaker 2 (57:01):
Yeah, amen, james.
Speaker 1 (57:02):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (57:02):
Yeah.
Well, listener, if you havesome deep thoughts inspired by
our deep thoughts, we want tohear it for reals.
So we will put a link in theshow notes to our reader forum,
or you can send us an email,guygirlsmedia at gmailcom, or
become a patron.
For as little as two bucks amonth, you can be part of the
(57:25):
inner circle and interact withus on our Patreon page.
The link is in the show notes.
Until next time.
See you next time.
Hey, you, yeah you.
You're a deep thinker, I cantell.
Let's make it official.
Head on over to our website,guygirlsmediacom, and make sure
(57:46):
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Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
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Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time.
Remember, pop culture is stillculture, and shouldn't you know
(58:08):
what's in your head?
I'm Emily Guy-Burkin and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I will besharing my Deep Thoughts about
the 1995 film Clueless with mysister, tracy Guy Decker, and
with you.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
Because it's just pop culture,what others might deem stupid
shit?
You know matters, you knowwhat's worth talking and
thinking about, and so do we.
So come over, think with us aswe delve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
(00:40):
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
So, Trace, tell me what you remember about Clueless
.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Oh, actually I'm not 100% sure I've seen it.
If I have, it's been a longtime.
I realized that I was mixing itup with Legally Blonde, Easy to
do yeah.
So, like when we talked aboutthat, you were going to share
your deep thoughts about thisfilm.
Like I was thinking of LegallyBlonde, so I know it has Alicia
(01:21):
Silverstone in it and thecharacter's name is Cher, cher,
yes, and her best friend isBlack, right, yes, and I know
that because my daughter wantedto go for Halloween as Cher and
her best friend, who is Black,was going to be that actor whose
name I don't know, dion, thankyou.
And we bought this Halloweencostume with, like a yellow
(01:45):
plaid mini skirt and yellowplaid cardigan.
That's it, that's all I know.
So not a lot, not a lot.
I'm excited to hear from youabout this film.
So, but before we get there,like, why are we talking about
it?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
So this film came out at exactly the right time for
me.
I was 16 years old when it cameout and it was about kids who
were basically 16 years old, soit was geared specifically
towards me.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
And.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I loved it.
I loved it Now partiallybecause Paul Rudd is love
interest in it and Paul Rudd islike an angel sent down to all
of us.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
First, you know it's funny.
I just I just last nightwatched the community episode
where Jeff says religion is kindof like Paul Rudd, like I see
the appeal, like I get whypeople like it, but I wouldn't
cross the street for it.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
He's just um, he's adorable and a mensch, it seems
like, and like silly.
Mostly the adorable is what Iwas focused on back in 1995.
And the other thing about himis like they talk about he
doesn't age and you can actuallysee the difference Like he
looks so baby faced in this film, but otherwise exactly the same
(03:04):
, like he just got a little bitsharper in the intervening 30
years.
Yeah, so, paul Rudd big fan.
It is based on kind of aretelling of Jane Austen's Emma.
Oh, and I just recently foundout that Amy Heckerling, who was
(03:26):
the writer and director, shehad done Fast Times at Ridgemont
High, which I've never actuallyseen.
You know, she was interested indoing another teen film, but
she didn't want an unhappy kidand the studio executives, they
didn't want her to do a movieabout the nerds, they wanted
someone who was popular, and soshe thought back to how much she
(03:47):
enjoyed Emma, because I don'tknow if you've read Emma, no,
that's not what I've read.
Okay, so Emma is this veryprivileged, kind of spoiled
young woman, but she has thisgood heart and she is just very
like a happy go lucky person,and so she does things that are
(04:10):
not necessarily great, butalways from a good place.
She doesn't recognize her ownprivilege and that can cause
people to be hurt sometimes, butagain, she doesn't mean
anything by it and the story isa little bit about her growth
and her becoming a better personis a little too strong, but
growing into her good heart andshe's a very sunny character.
(04:32):
So Amy Heckerling was like okay, what if we put that character
in Beverly Hills in currenttimes, 1995.
I really, really, as I said, itwas geared specifically towards
me.
I was exactly the right age.
It was very, very funny.
It was a sweet romantic comedyand it took being a teenager
(04:58):
seriously in a way that I reallyliked.
I really appreciated it at thetime.
I also have a very personalreason.
Our stepfather got reallyoffended by the trailers showing
Alicia Silverstone going as ifwhen a boy tries to put his arm
(05:19):
around her, and I remember himsaying like when he lived in
California that was how thewomen treated him and how it
really bothered him.
And so I liked this film, inpart because it was just like it
shows that she's absolutelycorrect in saying like get off
of me.
Unfortunately, I watched itagain last night and
(05:44):
Unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I really think we should rename this podcast to
Tracey and Emily.
Destroy their Childhoods.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yes, so there's still some loveliness in there.
It still passes the Bec DelTest.
It's still a very fluffy moviein that the stakes are never
that high and everything turnsout okay and that's lovely.
But it hasn't aged that well ina lot of ways.
(06:16):
So I kind of want to talk alittle bit about what hasn't
aged well, particularlysurrounding the idea of consent,
what hasn't aged well in termsof privilege and language.
And then there is a gaycharacter, and what was maybe
progressive at the time is nowfeels a little squeaky, and so I
(06:40):
kind of want to talk about allof that and kind of like dive
into what works and what doesn'tin this film.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Okay, cool.
So well, let's start, since Idon't remember at all, like
what's the basic plot line.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Okay, so Cher Horowitz is at the time?
Oh, she's Jewish.
They never say.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Okay, but Horowitz.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
But Horowitz Jewish or.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
German.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
And her father is Mel Horowitz.
Melvin Horowitz, yeah, okay,played by Dan Hedea, who is of
Jewish descent.
So who?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
knows.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Cool, okay.
So Cher Horowitz is, when wemeet her, 15 years old.
She's the daughter of a widower, mel, who is a litigator.
He's a big litigator.
She describes him as he getspaid $500 an hour to argue with
people.
But he can argue with me forfree because I'm his daughter
(07:41):
and he's a very scary litigator.
So even they're made Lucy isterrified of him.
She runs away from him when shesees him.
Her mother died when she was ababy in a freak liposuction
accident or something like that,and she's one of the most
popular kids in school, her bestfriend, dionne.
(08:01):
They're friends because Dionnealso knows what it's like to
have people who are jealous ofher, and they're both named for
important singers fromyesteryear.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Oh, so Dionne is named after Dionne Warwick.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yes.
So Dionne has a boyfriend namedMurray who they kind of argue
all the time.
Cher has made it clear that shethinks it's that high school
boys are not worth her time.
There is a new girl who comesto school named Ty, who is kind
of dressed a little frumpily andthe first thing she does is she
(08:33):
, she and I did not understandthis at the time.
She's like I really can't gofor some herbal refreshments and
they're like we don't have teabut there's a Coke machine.
So Ty was kind of a stoner.
Ty immediately meets and likesa boy named Travis Birkenstock
who is the school stoner.
But Cher tells her no, he isnot good enough for you.
(08:57):
You need to date one of thepopular boys.
And so Cher does a makeover forTy and like gives her all new
clothes, rinses out the pinkcoloring she has in her hair and
like tries to improve her.
And that is straight from theJane Austen.
Cher has a sort of stepbrothernamed Josh.
(09:20):
Early on Mel says to Cher yourbrother is coming for dinner,
just like why you haven't beenmarried to his mother for years
and it only lasts a couple weeks.
And he says we divorce wives,not children.
And so Josh is welcome in theirhome anytime.
He hangs out a lot.
That is Paul Rudd.
(09:41):
He is about three, four yearsolder than Cher.
He's in college and he is ado-gooder type.
When we first see him, he'swearing an Amnesty International
shirt and listening toComplaint.
Rock is the way that Cher putsit.
Josh tells Cher that she's kindof shallow and she's like no,
no, I'm trying to make the worldbetter for other people.
(10:02):
So, for instance, she gets abad grade from her teacher, mr
Hall, who was played by WallaceSean Vassini, and she tries to
argue her way into a bettergrade which succeeds with all
the other teachers but not withMr Hall.
And so she's like what can I doto get him to give better
grades?
(10:23):
And she realizes he's 37.
He's single.
He's making like minor ducketsin this thankless job.
What he needs is a point fest.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
That's what Cher says .
Cher says At 16?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Oh.
So she decides to try to.
She engineers a romance betweenMr Hall and Ms Geist, who is
her, I think, english teacherand who is also very much a
do-gooder.
She does kind of amuch-do-about-nothing, like, oh,
I heard Ms Geist said thisabout you.
And then she puts a rose and anote with a quote Shakespeare
(11:02):
quote in Ms Geist's mailbox inthe office.
A couple of different thingslike that.
She gives that as her proof toJosh, like, hey, I'm helping two
lonely teachers find love.
She's like yeah, I'm sure it'sfor your benefit.
And then he meets Ty and she'slike look, I'm bringing her
under my wing.
And he again is like not really.
(11:24):
So Cher tries to encourage Tyto date a boy named Elton.
This is again straight out ofEmma.
It was Mr Elton who was aclergyman, which is why.
So Tracy and I just recentlytalked about Pride and Prejudice
and we were talking about MrCollins and there's some aspects
(11:47):
of it that feel very real, andwe were talking I know that Jane
Austen was never married, butshe did have one proposal.
It was from a clergyman, it wasafter she would have been on
the shelf, so to speak, and soit was like her last chance at
marriage and she accepted himthe night that he had proposed.
(12:09):
She slept on it.
The next morning, said nope,never mind.
And I believe that thatclergyman must have been awful
because all the clergyman MrCollins in Pride and Prejudice,
mr Elton in Emma are awful.
So Elton actually is notinterested in Ty, just as Mr
(12:29):
Elton was not interested in andI cannot remember, I think it
was Harriet was the name ofEmma's protege he is actually
interested in Cher.
They're at a party, theyengineer something.
So that Elton engineer something, so that he's giving Cher a
ride home and he pulls over andis trying to kiss her and she's
saying no, no, I'm trying to getyou together with Ty.
(12:52):
He's like why would I be withTy?
You and I make sense.
Me and Ty don't make sense.
You know who my father is andhe will not take no for an
answer.
Literally Like he keeps tryingto kiss her and she gets out of
the car and then he tries onceto get her back in the car and
then he speeds away.
She's then held at gunpoint andshe calls Whoa, yeah, yeah, so
(13:14):
it's a guy robs her.
They make a joke of it Like hetakes her cell phone and they
takes her her purse and then hesays, lie down on the ground
while I leave.
And she's like and she'swearing a designer dress.
She's like this isn't a liar.
He's like on a what.
She's like it's a reallyimportant designer.
And he's like I will shoot youin the head, lie down.
(13:36):
So she lies down.
She's most upset about thedress, which is kind of like
shown as proof that she'sshallow.
And so she goes to a pay phoneand the only person she can
think up to call to get her isJosh.
So, um, is her dad?
Does she know her dad hasalready called her and told her
you have to be home in 20minutes, or else Because she has
(13:58):
afraid.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Oh, I see, okay, yeah , classic, she needs shenanigans
.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah.
So Josh happens to be have agirl over at his dorm and so the
girl and Josh come pick upshare.
Her name is Heather.
Heather is arguing with Joshabout something and ends with
it's just like Hamlet said tothe unknown self be true.
And share says Hamlet didn'tsay that and like this girl is
(14:25):
like clearly judging share,she's like I think I remember my
Hamlet correctly and share sayswell, I remember Mel Gibson
correctly and he didn't say it,polonius did.
So we're starting to see likeJosh recognizes there's more to
share than meets the eye.
Share has to tell Ty about whatElton did Was.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Ty into Elton.
Ty was devastated.
Oh, she was into Elton.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
She was.
Yes, and it's not that she was.
It was that her new friends whowere being so nice to her were
kept pushing her sort of thing.
But yeah, and she's not quite16.
Yeah, yeah, at that point itgets to be where Ty becomes more
popular than shared us atschool.
There's a couple thingshappening that that caused that
(15:10):
to happen.
And then a new boy comes toschool.
His name is Christian, andshare, who had been wanting to
like find a boy to help tie itover her heartbreak is like well
, I guess there's no problemwith me finding love too.
She's really into Christian.
She has him come over to herhouse like they go to a party
(15:32):
together.
When he comes over to her houseit's just the two of them and
she is planning for this to beher losing her virginity.
And halfway through the eveninghe runs away.
When she's talking to Dion, herfriend, about it in front of
Murray, dion's boyfriend, he's.
He lets them know thatChristian is gay, the way that
(15:54):
it's.
He describes it like sharestalking about it and Murray like
busts out laughing.
And then he says he's a friendof Dorothy.
He's a disco dancing.
Asked a while reading Streisandlistening and like so Ty then
(16:15):
tells share that she's into Josh.
Ty is into Josh, josh thebrother, the brother the sort of
yeah, paul Rudd because he'sbeen very kind to her, because
he's a nice guy and not nice guyTM, but nice guy Ty and share
get into an argument becauseshare is like defensive of the
(16:37):
idea that Ty has has a crush onJosh.
Not good enough for.
Josh yeah, she doesn't say thatshe's actually very like.
Do you really think that you'dbe a good fit for him?
She then realizes that she hasa crush on on Josh.
During that time, travis, thestoner kid meets up with share,
(16:59):
who has decided to head thePismo Beach disaster relief team
.
That's a made up disaster, okay, because she's decided she
wants to to have a makeover ofher soul, and so she's.
She's like getting all thisstuff and using her, her
popularity, for a good cause.
When Travis comes, like they're,they're gathering everything
(17:19):
from canned goods to like tohousewares.
And he brings his old bongs andsays you know, I'm giving these
away, but far be it from me tostop anyone else from enjoying.
And then he apologizes forsomething that happened at the
party and because he's in, he'snow in a 12 step program, he
says, and he now, being sober,he's finding it's, it's really
(17:43):
clarifying his skateboarding.
And he invites share to see himat a skateboarding thing I
don't know what you'd call itAnyway.
So share and Ty meet up there.
They both apologize to eachother and sparks fly between
Travis and Ty and share realizesshe doesn't, she doesn't have
(18:04):
to worry about Ty being in lovewith Josh Movie comes to an end
when Josh and share share theirfeelings for each other.
And then the very final scene.
You see them like, they gettogether, they kiss and then
share says you know what happensnext.
And you see a bride in a groom.
You're like what?
And she's like no, I'm only 17or 16, whatever it is.
(18:25):
And this is, this is California, not Kentucky.
I'm like hmm, and then you zoomin and it's miss, miss Geist
and Mr Hall getting married, andshare is actually one of the
bridesmaids.
And so the end of the film isthe three girls.
So share, ty and Dion among theother people trying to get the
bouquet.
(18:45):
So there's a lot there.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
All right, where do you want to start?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Let's start with consent, because it's the.
That was the thing that reallybothered me, as I, as I
mentioned, like personallybecause of the way our father
responded to like that moment inthe trailer, I was like annoyed
and loved the film.
What happens when you see hersay as if is she's walking on
(19:13):
campus at her high school andthis boy comes over and grabs
her, puts his arm around hershoulder and goes to kiss her on
the cheek, I think and shepushes him off and goes as if,
which she has every right to do.
And that reaction of as if asif I would be interested in you
(19:34):
is perfectly reasonable forsomeone who was so transgressed
her boundaries, sure, and Cheris always kind-hearted Like.
She's not doing this becausehe's not like her.
He's doing this because he'sbeing a jerk Transgressed her
boundary right.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
It's not because he's unworthy of love or attention.
It's because he yeah.
It's about his action, not hisbeing yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
So the problem is the scene where Elton is giving her
the ride home and then kissesher against her will twice, like
she makes it clear no, I'm notinterested in you, I was trying
to get you with Ty, no, and shegets out of the car.
So Cher does a voiceoverthroughout the film and after
(20:21):
she's robbed and she's going tofind the pay phone, she says
like sexually assaulted,abandoned, robbed, and now I had
to get home, or something likethat.
The thing is the way that thevoiceover is given.
It is played as a joke that shewould use the term sexually
(20:44):
assaulted Like that she isoverreacting.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
She's exaggerating what happened.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, and that is like that really bothered me a
lot, because Elton has her inhis car and he is not listening
to her and he has two or threetimes reached for her to kiss
her when she has made it clearthat she is not interested.
And in 1995, I know weconsidered that like whatever
(21:16):
it's you know, so it was anormal.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, but that really Doesn't age well, it's
different.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah Well, especially when you think about, like what
lessons that gave 16 year oldEmily about what was acceptable,
just as the cost of beingfemale Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yeah, then the other thing that really hit wrong
particularly because of how muchI love this actor and I loved
this character is Cher callsJosh at his dorm and you hear
the phone ring and you see legslike panning up as like they're
both dressed, but what you hearis Josh say, oh, come on to
(21:59):
Heather, the girl he has at hisdorm in his dorm room.
Oh, like he's coercing her,mm-hmm, and no idea, no idea
what that's actually supposed tobe.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
But considering what just happened, yeah, yeah, it's
kind of ugly and just Certainlythe implication is there, even
if that, like there are othercontexts in which I mean he
could have been saying like oh,come on, hamlet is a good play.
Like don't, don't bag on Hamlet.
But given context, that doesseem to be sort of what we're
(22:32):
meant to.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Well, I think there's like kissing noises too In that
moment.
Even more so then.
Yeah, so, and you know,flirting while kissing like, oh,
come on, you can't believe thatthat is true.
Yeah, whatever, but justimplications not great.
So that that really had me alittle bit concerned.
(22:57):
So there are two lines in thisfilm that are so funny that I
one of them I don't know if it'sstill funny, but they, like it,
always cracked me up in the 90s.
When Christian comes to pickand share up, he does not make a
good first impression on herfather.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
He's the turns out to be gay guy.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Yes, yeah, and he's got a very like James Dean kind
of vibe going.
Well, no, james Dean's verylike, he's very well dressed.
And he comes in and he's likenice pile of breccia, got here
to share his father and sharehis father says do you drink?
And Christian goes no, I'm good, he's like no.
(23:37):
I'm asking you if you drink.
Do you think I'm offering adrink to the underage driver
who's taking my teenage daughterout?
So Cher comes down.
She's wearing a dress that isvery her dad calls it.
It looks like underwear.
It's short, it's very formfitting and he's like put
something on over it.
She's like, oh, I was justgoing to, and what she puts on
(23:59):
is like sheer.
So but anyway, as she's goingto get the top, the dad says
something along the lines of asfor you, you've got a 45 and a
shovel.
I doubt anyone would miss you,which I thought was hilarious in
1995.
But it's like, and he saidsomething like if anything bad
(24:21):
happens to my daughter orsomething like that, but Wow,
yeah, but again hits differentin 2024.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yeah, yeah.
So Dress of gun violence alwaysfunny yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
The other aspect.
So there's two other thingsabout consent that I wanted to
talk about.
One is how the character ofChristian is handled.
So there are a couple of thingswhere other people see so he
takes her to a party wherethere's dancing and other people
see like he's dancing with her,but then kind of dancing with a
(24:57):
guy.
And then there's, and Josh seesthis and sees him like there's
a girl comes over and puts herhand on his, on his shoulder,
while he's getting a drink fromat the bar and he like, like
Pushing her away.
Yeah, moves it, and then istalking to the bartender like
you know, flirting basicallywith the bartender, who's a guy,
and so all Cher seizes himremoving the girl's hand,
(25:20):
thinking like oh, he's so intome.
And then Josh sees these otherinteractions, so like there are
hints that he is gay, that she'sjust kind of not naive exactly,
but just isn't picking up one.
She's missing, missing.
So how Murray knows that he'sgay is not clear.
But I think the movie is tryingto suggest like if you weren't
(25:45):
naive you'd know, because hebrings home, like when he comes
to her house he brings Spartacusand I can't remember the other
one but Tony Curtis films.
When we first meet him he'sreading a book by William S
Burroughs and he asked her shelikes Billie Holiday and like
some of these are like.
Ok, I know that is a marker,but are these others?
(26:08):
I don't know.
I will say another line that isactually funny is she's like, so
maybe it's for the best?
And this is before Murray tellsher that he's gay.
She's like maybe it's for thebest.
He does dress better than I do,so what would I bring to the
relationship?
But that struck me as a littlebit well, it's handled so
(26:31):
differently than how it would behandled today.
For one thing, I feel liketoday's teenagers like a
16-year-old in 2024, would havea better sense of the fact that
gay people exist.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Yeah, I mean our whole society has been queered
in the best possible way since1995.
I mean we were still in themiddle of Don't Ask, don't Tell
in 1995.
Yes, you know.
So it was not that it's safebut, it's safer, it's safer.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Especially in Beverly Hills, I mean.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, yeah, I mean in 1995, it was not safe for a lot
of queer folks to just be outand open and openly acknowledged
.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
And there is a point where it makes sense because
she's clearly disappointed.
When he's leaving, he's likeI'm tired, I think I'm going to
head home, because he realizeswhat's going on.
And there's a point where hecould tell her and doesn't, and
he's like we're friends, right,you know, you're my home girl,
give me a kiss on the cheek, andhe's clearly trying to make her
(27:42):
feel better but doesn't comeout there, which is perfectly
within his rights.
But that was something that Ifound really odd.
Was the not odd?
It hits different now than itdid 30 years ago that he's outed
using this string ofstereotypes by another character
(28:08):
yeah, who's a guy?
Yeah, and it's kind ofindicated that this is her being
naive rather than it being justnot something she noticed,
which doesn't mean naive.
Then the one other thing that Ifound very odd was so how Ty
(28:31):
becomes more popular at schoolis Christian, cher and Ty are
all at the mall.
Ty has met two boys, young men,who she's talking to.
She's there on the upper levelof the mall and she's sitting on
the railing and the two boysare above the level, which
already that would make menervous.
(28:52):
But sitting there flirting withthese two guys who have their
arms around her keeping herupright.
On that we cut to Cher andChristian talking about oh,
she's talking to those randos.
And then we hear her scream andlook over and they are tipping
her over oh, wow, yeah, and justbeing complete assholes.
(29:15):
And Christian runs over, getsher off and pushes the guy Like
what are you doing?
You could have killed someone.
This is so not OK.
And after that she at school istalking about her near-death
experience and the way thatCher's voiceover talks about it
(29:35):
really minimizes how awful itwas.
And then the way that the filmhas her like talking about her
near-death experience, she'slike, oh, you just get this
spiritual clarity when you'realmost dying.
And like everyone's likewrapped and really interested
and like it minimizes howterrifying that would have been
(29:58):
in a way that I just don't thinkis appropriate.
Like she's a kid, yeah, andthese boys she was flirting with
decided to do something trulytraumatic to her.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
And cruel.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yeah, it sounds to me like, though, one of the things
that you said about why youliked it, this film, was that it
took being a teenager seriously.
What I'm hearing is that,actually, it really minimized
some kind of serious things thatit depicts.
You know, like you said, thestakes are never that high,
(30:34):
which I hear is accurate, andalso there are these moments
where the stakes actually arerelatively high for the
individuals involved, and thenthe film, the movie makers,
really minimize those stakes,which is a really interesting
thing to see on reflection, whenone of the things that
attracted you to it was the lowstakes and the taking the
(30:55):
teenage life seriously.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Yeah it's.
The film is partially a satire.
I mean it's satirizing likewealthy people, shallow people,
it's satirizing teenagers aswell, and it's like winking at
the audience as it's doing it.
But it's also like undercuttingit Right by making it clear
(31:20):
that's like yeah, that was.
That was idiotic of Cher not torealize this and you know those
sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Well, and to wink at the audience to say like, yeah,
she thinks that was sexualassault, but we all know that's
just the cost of being female.
And to wink at the audience andsay, you know she's getting
she's trading on her quote,unquote near death experience,
when really it was just someguys flirting with her.
Yeah, exactly, danger isflirting, mm-hmm which is
(31:53):
terrifying.
And like this is not the onlyexample where that we could
probably find, where that is amessage we've been given right,
like even the he's probablyhitting you because he likes you
that we tell to little girls,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yeah, he's pulling on your pigtails because he likes
you Exactly Great, so he'scausing me pain.
Fantastic, thank you.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
And well, because the message in that, in saying that
, is that you should be grateful, flattered, yeah yeah, so that
was that was.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
I am curious because this line is still so perfectly
written that I don't know ifit's like so there's a scene
where they are in gym class,they're all waiting in line to
play tennis, they've got a oneof those automatic tennis ball
throwers things, and Cher issurprised by it.
(32:59):
She's like oh my goodness, thisis a lawsuit waiting to happen.
So the teacher's like all right, fine, deon, you're up.
And Deon says I have a notefrom my tennis coach that has
asked me not to do anything thatwould interrupt his teaching of
me.
So it's usually like fine, allright, amber.
And Amber is the closest thingto an antagonist.
(33:20):
She just she doesn't like Cherand is kind of like low-key mean
to her sometimes.
And so Amber says my plasticsurgeon has told me that I
cannot do anything where ballsfly at my face.
And Deon says well, there goesyour social life, oh shit.
(33:44):
Roger Ebert described that lineas worth the price of admission
.
He actually, and he saidthere's a line that I cannot
repeat here because of thefamily newspaper that is worth
the price of admission.
I'm like it's that one.
The one other thing I thinkworth mentioning that I forgot
to say at the beginning is theamount of weight and food and
(34:09):
exercise talk.
That is really Fatphobic.
It's fatphobic and it's alsolike it's disordered.
I mean, alicia Silverstone isAlicia Silverstone yeah, she's
phenomenally gorgeous and thereare.
(34:30):
She talks about calories.
She talks about like oh, it wasreally bad.
And she's used this as anexcuse for why she's acting
weird, because it's one of thetimes when she's like, oh, it's
so bad.
I had two mochachinos and fivepeanut M&Ms and this list of
foods.
They show her exercising withThai.
We need to improve our bodiesand our minds.
(34:53):
There's quite a bit of stufflike that and it was so normal
in 1995.
I didn't even recall that it wasa lot of weight.
I didn't even recall that itwas in there.
Yeah, and like just thenormality of a teenage girl.
(35:18):
Of course she's worried abouther weight, of course she's
thinking about her food.
Yeah, the scene where she'strying to figure out, like when
she decides Mr Hall needs agirlfriend, she's like all right
, who wants staff?
And so they see her goingthrough the staff, like lounge,
where she's like, okay, well,the trolls in the math
department are all actuallymarried.
And then she sees someone'slunch.
(35:40):
She's like, ooh, snickers,which, I'm wondering, was
product placement, but it wasstill just like, oh, I'm
sidetracked.
And some of that's like, okay,she's a teenager, chocolate, yes
, but the way that she talksabout food throughout, I don't
know, it's just weird.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
So, yeah, I want to come back to the balls on her
face thing.
Yes, because it is funny andalso like the more I sit with it
, especially thinking aboutother ways in which, like with
the food and the exercise youare describing an impossible
(36:22):
expectation right that AliciaSilverstone would be kind of put
in such a light that we would Idon't know think about her as
like denying herself theSnickers and like she thinks
that she's going crazy becauseshe had five M&Ms or something.
And that in context with thatballs joke where Amber's being
(36:43):
shamed for being sexually activewhile we know Cher was planning
on losing her virginity toChristian, there is some.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
To be fair, she's actually more, not shamed, but
like about being a virgin.
So like when Ty first comes tothe school, cher says you have
something that no one else herehas.
And she's like, oh, I'm not avirgin.
And Cher goes, no, no, no, no,mystique, because you're new
here.
And then, after she learns thatElton isn't interested in her,
(37:18):
she and Deanna and Cher go tocheer her up like they go go get
lunch and go to a movie, and sothey're like admiring the
waiters at this, at thisrestaurant, and Ty says
something like, oh, I don't careif they're muscular or not
muscular, as long as there youknow what isn't crooked.
And shares like huh, and Dionsays, oh, don't mind, share, she
(37:44):
doesn't know.
And like your version.
And and Dion's like no, no, no,pc term is hymen only
challenged.
And so they have this longconversation about the fact that
she, she hasn't had sex yet,but neither has.
Dion was like you know, becauseshares like you, you're one to
talk, dion.
She's like whoa, my man issatisfied, but technically I am
a virgin.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
So there's some weird stuff in there about so like,
okay, all right, so now I havemore information.
So that reminds me ofconversations we had when we
talked about Twilight, where weend up in situations where girls
are expected to guard theirvirginity, as in intercourse,
(38:30):
and then do other things thatthey maybe don't want to do, you
know to to be hip or popular orbecause that's the cost of
being female.
And you know actually, thislike, oh, she doesn't know.
That goes along with the moviereally telling us that if share
(38:51):
were more sexually experienced,she would know the Christian was
gay as well.
Mm-hmm, yeah, and I have to saynow I'm certain I have not seen
this film.
Now, now that you've explainedthe whole plot, I have not seen
this film, so I haven't seen it.
And it's 30 years old and I'm alittle disturbed by this notion
(39:14):
that this 16 year old issomehow being shamed or kind of
looked down upon because she'snot more sexually experienced,
because she's 16 and like and itI don't know if, with Dionne
saying that what you just shared, like it feels like again where
(39:37):
I was going in the first place,that there's this, this
impossible expectation that thischild should be worldly and
sexually knowledgeable but alsovirginal, and that you know we
look at least some people, ourstepfather, look down on her,
(40:01):
for her, as if in defending herbodily autonomy, but also were
she completely obviouslyoverreacted drama queen that she
called Elton trying to kiss hersexual assault, like it just
it's damned if you do and damnedif you don't.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
I will say I really appreciated it.
Like in that scene, cher sayswell, look at it this way, you
see how particular I am about myshoes and they only go on my
feet.
I love that.
That's fantastic.
(40:45):
So like I mean that AmyHackerling in a lot of ways gave
some really good examples fordealing with this, like that is
a fantastic response that's agreat response yeah, yes and she
was working in 1995, so she hadto get it made yes, so we see
(41:05):
the relationship between Dionneand Murray and they're
constantly bickering and it'ssupposed to be kind of a like
like a joke, like a joke thatthey bicker like an old married
couple, although the first thinghe says like he keeps calling
her woman and she keeps saying,like I've repeatedly asked you
not to do that.
And he says, is it at that timeof the month which, oh yucky.
(41:30):
But later on, when Cher is liketrying to to improve herself,
she's like I noticed howeveryone has different strengths
, things that are good and solike, like how Christian wants
everything to be beautiful andinteresting and this, that and
the other.
And then Murray and Dionne areso considerate of each other
when no one's watching, and soit's to be this idea that like
(41:53):
they are putting on thisperformance for other people,
but they really are together.
And there's a at the at theparty.
Dionne freaks out becauseMurray is started shaving his
head at the party and she's likethis is just before yearbook
photos.
What am I gonna tell mygrandchildren?
And then she's like all right,that's it, I'm calling your
mother.
Which is the hilarious thing isit's Donald Faison is plays
(42:20):
Murray.
He was in scrubs, if that's okayhe.
I knew this because I watchedthis movie so many times as a
teenager.
He's bald the entire time.
You just see him with hats on,and I've never seen Donald
Faye's on with hair.
He always is bald.
So what?
They have this whole scene andyou believe it at the time, but
(42:43):
you never see him without a hatother than that scene.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
The actor was bald the whole time.
That's funny.
Yeah, so did we cover what youwanted to cover?
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
I do want to say there are some things that hold
up well, the soundtrack for one.
It's a fantastic soundtrack.
The final scene is like thevery last image is Cher and Josh
sharing a kiss at the wedding.
It is so hot, seriously.
(43:16):
If you get a chance, just watchthe last kiss, the last spot,
and the film is quotable.
It's whether or not thosequotes hold up.
There's also there's somelanguage.
So, for instance, one of thethings that Cher does to get Mr
(43:37):
Hall and Miss Geist together isshe gives him some coffee and
she says that she mixed up herlemon snapple with her father's
Italian roast that morning, andso does he want it?
Maybe Miss Geist would wantsome, but the way she describes
it is like I was a total R wordand mixed up the lemon sample.
And then there's a.
There's a point where I thinkTy calls herself a tarred and so
(44:02):
, like that, completely slippedon the radar in the in the 90s.
Yeah yeah, the fashions are alsonow part of this is my fashion
sense was forged in the fires of1995.
But the the fashion is alsoreally, really amazing.
My kid looked really cute inthat.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Oh yeah, that's Halloween costume, like I was
like oh, this is really adorable.
You sure you don't want to wearit?
Yeah, no mom.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
So like it's.
It's the kind of baby dolldresses paired with that that
they're.
Cher never pairs them with likeDoc Martens, but you see Doc
Martens and stuff like that andthat was like high socks like me
socks, yeah, socks up over theknee, yep, I mean the fashion is
also a little bit weird too,because there's a there's very
much a sexualizing element ofthese teen girls and I don't you
(45:00):
know watching it this timearound.
I remember I was thinking, likethose skirts are super short,
like super short.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
Yeah, super short.
Anything else that you want tolift up, that does still hold up
.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
I do like the friendships between the three
girls is is it's nice to see itdoes pass the back deltas, as I
mentioned.
So like you've got the threegirls now.
They talk about boys a lot, butthey also talk about clothes
and they talk about test scoresand they talk about their
parents and you know so thatthere's they talk about driving,
(45:40):
so it does feel like a wellrounded.
Look at what girl that's.
What kind of what I mean aboutit took teenagers seriously,
like they're not one dimensional, even though that is the way
people look at Cher.
They assume she's onedimensional and she is not.
And so the relationshipsbetween these three three girls
(46:06):
is also like worth looking at,because I don't know how often
we get examples of femalefriendship at all.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Yeah, no, we really don't.
I mean, I think, doing thisproject with you, I've really
started to notice just how oftenit's like, if we have a female
protagonist, then she's likeHermione, like the one girl in
the core group, or she's, youknow, the not like other girls
exceptional character who has nopeers like Bell or or like
(46:43):
Scully Scully.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, well, and that's Cher.
She starts off by saying likeyou know, the opening shot is a
whole bunch of like thingshappening, like kids at a pool
party and stuff like that inBeverly Hills, so like super,
super wealthy and shares firstline.
And as voiceover is like I knowwhat you're thinking, is this
an oxyma commercial?
And then she says but Iactually have a way, normal life
(47:08):
for a teenage girl.
And then they show you the waysthat she doesn't, because she
is so wealthy, but she doesn'twant to be on anything other
than a normal teenage girl.
She doesn't consider herself tobe anything other than a normal
teenage girl.
And that is refreshing.
Yeah, as is.
I also really appreciate therelationship between Cher and
(47:30):
her father.
They clearly really love eachother.
When she she gets a report cardand she tells her father it's
not ready yet, he's like what doyou mean?
It's not ready yet.
She's like well, I'm usingthese grades as a jumping off
point for negotiation.
And so when she finally getsthe report card back, she tells
him like.
He asks like did you do extracredit?
(47:50):
Did you?
Do you know anything to improvethese grades?
She's like no, this is entirelybased on my power of persuasion
and he says honey, I couldn'tbe more proud than if they were
based on real grades, becausethat's what he does for a living
.
So their relationship is is.
Is this lovely relationshipalso based on Emma?
(48:12):
Because Emma's father is likekind of a miz and throat but
like a funny one.
It's similar to to Mel.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
The line that you shared about Josh actually I
found very poignant.
We divorce, not children.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Yes, and that's also really the fact that Josh is
always welcome in the Horowitzhouse is lovely and it's really
clear that Mel may be gruff,like the first time he meets.
Ty share has her over fordinner and Ty is sitting in
(48:47):
Mel's normal seat and sharesgoing.
Daddy, this is my friend Ty,and he goes get out of my seat.
She looks up and moves over,but the gruffness is like he's
got a heart of gold really andCher knows how to wrap him
around her finger.
But he also, she also listensto him.
For instance, like she's shedrives even though she doesn't
(49:08):
have a license and she has a cartheir dad bought her even
though she doesn't have alicense.
And he gets like a secondnotification of three different
tickets.
She's like that's funny, Idon't remember getting a first
notification.
He's like the ticket is thefirst notification.
I didn't even know he couldtake it if he didn't have a
driver's license.
She's like, oh, you can get aticket anytime.
And he says to her like youcannot drive that car unless
(49:32):
there is a licensed driver therewith you, and so and instead of
just going and doing whatevershe wants because she could,
because he is always busy andall of that and, like she's
already been driving without alicense, she immediately goes
and says all right, josh, comewith me, you're a licensed
driver with nothing to do.
So like it's a lovely dynamicthat I really appreciate,
(50:00):
especially now as a parent of analmost I mean, I guess he's a
teenager, he's 13.
Yeah, that give and take, thatit shows like a long, lasting,
loving parent-child relationship.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
Yeah Well, should I try and summarize what we talked
about?
I will try.
It will be invisible to ourlisteners, but we've been
interrupted a couple times, so Iwill try to remember what we
talked about.
So Clueless with AliciaSilverstone.
It passes the back-tail testand it sounds like there's some
really positive and well-roundedfemale characters in this that
(50:38):
we can feel good about, butthere are also some lessons
about the cost of being femalein terms of men's attention and
what we just have to accept asnormal.
There's also some kind of whatfeels weird in 2024 ways of
(51:00):
talking about and makingassumptions about gay men in
particular Probably queer folksin general, though it sounds
like it was specifically a gaycharacter.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
And there's also the gym teacher.
There's a little bit of a jokeabout the gym teacher in the
long history of female gymteachers.
Oh, a lesbian gym teacher.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
It seems like it's oriented yeah, yeah.
So some representation aroundqueer folks that doesn't hold up
to today's standards.
I also heard a bit aboutdisordered eating and attention
to the female body that feelunhealthy by today's standards.
(51:47):
Some basic stuff aroundlanguage, the R word that
mainstream American culture justhad not seen in 1995, but that
really stands out today.
Let me think, what else did wetalk about?
I was struck by the impossiblesituation of sexuality where
(52:12):
Sharon and her friends areexpected to be sexually
knowledgeable but not sexuallyavailable, or at least not well,
I was going to say at least notfor vaginal intercourse.
But it's not just that, becausethe antagonist gets burned for
(52:34):
a reputation of oral sex.
So there's some just thisimpossible context for these
teenage girls.
Good soundtrack, fun, fashion,quotable lines which may or may
not hold up 30 years later.
What am I forgetting?
Speaker 1 (52:56):
Just a lovely father-daughter relationship,
which I mean it would be greatif we're a mother-daughter
relationship, because we don'tget enough of that.
But it is based on Emma, whichdid have the similar sort of
dynamic between Emma and MrWoodhouse, her father.
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Yeah, I, have forgotten that piece.
Speaker 1 (53:18):
I didn't name it all that this is based on.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Jane Austen, In part, actually.
That background was reallyinteresting to me, that the
movie maker wanted to makeanother teenage movie but she
didn't want an unhappyprotagonist.
Speaker 1 (53:33):
Or cynicism.
There's a lot of cynicism inmovies made for teens or about
teens, and so she wanted somesunshine, and that's one of the
things that's so charming aboutthe film is that Cher is a
lovely kid, in the sense of shereally does mean well and she
(53:53):
really does want to do better,and all of her missteps come
from a good place and are thesorts of things a 16-year-old
would need to learn, and so onewould presume that 44-year-old
Cher out there now is a mensch.
She's out there being a menschand being good to her friends
(54:16):
and family and maybe still alittle clueless about how her
privilege may come across, butdisarming people because she
wants to help anyway.
Speaker 2 (54:27):
And that was something also that we noted at
the end is that herrelationships do actually all of
them sound pretty genuine, likewith Tai, with Dion, with her
dad, with Josh.
It sounds like they all are,you know, despite coming at them
, like Tai in particular, likeas you were telling me what
happened.
That does not sound like agenuine way to approach a
(54:49):
friendship.
But the fact that they thenfight and then make up that
sounds actually based in genuinemutual regard.
Speaker 1 (54:59):
Yes, yes, and even like her, she ends up saying
that Christian becomes herfavorite shopping buddy, and
like when she's thinking of allthe good things about her
different friends, like I lovewhat she says about him.
She wants everything to bebeautiful and interesting.
You know what a lovely thing tosay about a person.
And so, yes, there's, there's agenuineness to all of her
(55:20):
relationships and even when shemesses up, she makes it right.
In a way that is, it provides agood example for how to fix
when things, when you do thingswrong, and provides a good
example for for, like, a goodhearted apologies and that sort
of thing.
Speaker 2 (55:39):
All right, well, maybe I'll put it on my watch
list.
Speaker 1 (55:44):
It's free on YouTube with ads.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
Okay, so.
So next time I am going tobring you my deep thoughts about
the Breakfast Club, and Iunderstand that you have some
listener comments that youwanted to share.
Let's hear them.
Speaker 1 (56:04):
So a couple of listener comments.
My friend, eric, who is marriedto Joanna, said about a
Christmas story.
Joanna loves this movie, I hateit.
To which Joanna responded Ikeep telling Eric we have a
perfect leg lamp front window,but he hates it so much you
won't take the bait.
And I've seen their frontwindow.
It's.
She's correct, that would bethe perfect front window for the
(56:25):
leg lamp.
Crystal said about labyrinths.
I love this movie as a kid.
I definitely need to watch itas an adult.
And then she did a crying emojicrying, laughing, which is
because, yeah, yes, it sits alittle different when you see it
as a grown up.
Yeah, and then finally, aboutthe Buffy episode.
James said I loved this episode.
It allowed me to geek out for abit on one of my favorites and
(56:48):
I wholly appreciated the everexpanding viewpoints on the show
.
It also made me realize that,as we grow up, it's truly
disturbing to see how some ofour favorite creators have
turned into raging assholes.
Speaker 2 (57:01):
Yeah, amen, james.
Speaker 1 (57:02):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (57:02):
Yeah.
Well, listener, if you havesome deep thoughts inspired by
our deep thoughts, we want tohear it for reals.
So we will put a link in theshow notes to our reader forum,
or you can send us an email,guygirlsmedia at gmailcom, or
become a patron.
For as little as two bucks amonth, you can be part of the
(57:25):
inner circle and interact withus on our Patreon page.
The link is in the show notes.
Until next time.
See you next time.
Hey, you, yeah you.
You're a deep thinker, I cantell.
Let's make it official.
Head on over to our website,guygirlsmediacom, and make sure
(57:46):
you don't miss a single deepthought.
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What are you waiting for?
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time.
Remember, pop culture is stillculture, and shouldn't you know
(58:08):
what's in your head?
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