January 23, 2024 • 61 mins
That [imperialist, whip-wielding archeologist] belongs in a museum!
On today’s Deep Thoughts, Tracie takes on a pillar of her and Emily’s childhood: Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark. The sisters talk about what’s great (the soundtrack, the cinematography, Marion Ravenwood’s badassery), what’s not so great (the imperialism, the toxic masculinity, the lack of any women other than Marion), and what’s seriously inaccurate (the bulldozer archeological tactics, the history of the Ark of the Covenant, Marion’s ability to drink giant men under the table).
Listen as we try not to ruin another childhood favorite. Just watch out for snakes!
CW: Conversation about romantic relationships between an adult man and an underage girl, brief mention of the possibility of sexual assault
Mentioned in this episode
Archaeologists React to Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark
Screen Rant fact checking Raiders
Ecclesia and Synagoga
Christian Supersessionism
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Tracy Guy-Dekker and you're listening
to Deep Thoughts about StupidShit, because pop culture is
still culture, and shouldn't youknow what's in your head?
Today, I'll be sharing my DeepThoughts about Indiana Jones and
the Raiders of the Lost Arkwith my sister, emily Guy-Burken
, and with you.
Let's dive in.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
(00:22):
just pop culture, what othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you knowwhat's worth talking and
thinking about, and so do we.
So come over and think with usas we delve into our Deep
Thoughts about Stupid Shit.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
(00:44):
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Okay, this one is like.
This feels like a pillar of ourchildhood.
For some reason it's a 1981film, so we were quite young
(01:05):
when it was first released.
I remember watching it like onon TVs.
So I don't think we werewatching it in 1981, but
certainly in the 80s.
But tell me what you you know,what you remember, what you know
about the Raiders of the LostArk.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
So I remember the Nazi's faces is melting at the
end because it is horrifying andcool and kind of equal measures
.
I remember the very beginningwith the huge boulder, when he
subs out the golden idol for thebag of sand.
I remember Marion, played byKaren Allen.
(01:44):
Yes, yeah.
And I remember really liking her, but also like, even as a kid,
at the end Indiana Jones saysthey don't know what they've got
and she's like, well, I knowwhat I've, I know what I've got.
Let's get a drink.
And it's just like where did?
Why are you a bubble head?
All of a sudden, like that linedoesn't even make sense and
(02:08):
like what is wrong with you?
Where's the woman out drinking?
The giant Tibetan guy that wefirst met, and I remember the
monkey and feeling terrible forthe monkey and the staff that
they use to figure out wherethings are and being very
(02:28):
excited by the idea of this likemillennial old scavenger hunt.
Like that there was somethingvery appealing to me about that.
Oh, and then the snake thatgoes through the peep toe of her
shoe, because that was anotherlike equal measure horrifying
and cool.
So I know there's, oh, there's,traveling via map, which I feel
(02:55):
like this.
I'm sure this wasn't what whatintroduced that idea.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
No, but I think it did popularize it, yeah, and I
think I think it really did kindof like solidify it as like a
vehicle for showing travel, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
And then I remember it early on, Jones is teaching a
class and it's full of youngwomen because he's Harrison Ford
in his prime and there's onewho had written love on one
eyelid and you on the other.
And I remember as a kid goinglike why did she do that?
Because even though I was likecommitted to very handsome men,
(03:33):
it was like that wasn't a thingin this movie, and also like
trying to figure out, like howdo you do that?
Because your eyes would have tobe closed and would you get a
friend to help and who wouldhelp you with that.
I spent way too long thinkingabout it.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
You heard it here first.
We've been overthinking sincewe were children.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Since like age five.
So there's there's a lot ofrandom stuff in there that that
I remember.
I also feel like even as a kid,I felt this kind of like oh,
(04:14):
that's cool affinity for thefact that they were searching
for an important artifact ofJudaism, and so it felt like, oh
, this, this movie is mine in away that I didn't necessarily
feel about pop culture becauseit was.
You know, judaism was not oftenbrought up unless it was like,
(04:36):
oh, yeah, yeah, they're havingHanukkah.
That was a bit so.
So there was something that Ireally appreciated about that
and felt like like I was one ofthe cool kids, even though I
didn't really understand a wordof what they're talking about,
and much of my understanding oflike the Ark of the Covenant
came from this film.
But still it was just like, andit's mine, it's why I'm one of
(04:59):
the group.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout this film today?
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, well, as I said , this feels like a pillar of
our childhood in terms of popculture, like I remember Dad
just being totally tickled bythis movie, like specific
moments, but just in general,like just really liking this
movie, and so it kind of likestands out in that sense from
our childhood and it is so.
(05:26):
My brother-in-law is a studentof archaeology that's not what
he's doing now, but like has amaster's degree in archaeology
and anthropology and he saysthat he followed that path
because of this movie.
And I've realized that actuallythat's true of like 90% of
people who are currently inarchaeology, like they're there
(05:48):
because of this movie.
And so I thought, you know thisit's, it's become such a
touchstone of pop culture, likeso much has derived from it or
influenced by it, that I wantedto take a look back at it now
with today's eyes andunfortunately I'm not really
excited about what I'm seeing,hate to say it.
(06:11):
Yeah, so I'm going to want totalk about and actually even
since I initially, like beforewe started recording, I told
Emily the two buckets that Iwanted to talk about, and now it
keeps expanding, as I'mthinking but so I really want to
talk about gender in this movie, not just.
We often talk about femalerepresentation.
I do want to talk about Marion,but I also want to talk about
(06:34):
masculinity in this movie andwhat it has to say, what this
movie has to say aboutmasculinity, the constellation
of colonialism and imperialismand white supremacy and European
supremacy specifically.
There's a whole lot in thismovie about that, even as
regards Jewish stuff.
(06:55):
Maybe I shouldn't say even likethat's a part of it.
I also want to talk about,maybe just briefly, some of the
cinematic, cinematic choices.
This movie was directed bySteven Spielberg, won awards,
like it's a remarkable piece ofentertainment of the medium that
(07:17):
I think I just want to at leastname For one thing, rewatching
it.
The score is its own character,it's really remarkable score
and I feel like this moviehelped teach me that.
The atmospheric music helps meknow how I'm supposed to feel.
So all of these things.
(07:38):
It's been a very, veryinfluential movie, not just on
us but on the culture.
So that's why I wanted to takea minute and look back on it,
and I know that you've seen itrecently and you have some
specific training too in sort ofthinking about colonialists and
British literature.
So please like interject alongthe way.
But I'll start with a briefrecap of what happens in this
(08:00):
movie.
I'll try and keep it brief.
I'm not always good at that soI will do my best.
We can always cut and post.
I will do my best.
So I do think it's worth namingwe open.
We open credentialing this man,indiana Jones, harrison Ford who
, you're right, is absolutelygorgeous in this movie.
I mean whoa, anyway, we open onhim.
(08:22):
In it just says South America.
I think it's meant to be Peru,but it's actually.
The movie itself doesn't tellus that, it just says South
America in 1936.
And he is tracking down anancient temple with a whole host
of guides who sort of one byone, kind of peel off, either by
abandoning him or dying.
(08:44):
It's remarkable.
Anyway, he finds this templewhich is totally booby trapped.
There's bodies everywhere.
He manages to take the goldenidol, which is a little statue
about six inches tall, as younoted, by replacing it with a
bag of sand.
It's not good enough.
(09:05):
Releases more booby traps,including this perfectly
spherical boulder which I thinkif he had just ducked when he
first saw it, it would havecleared the path for him instead
of him being chased by it.
But whatever, that's another.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
I just I also I want to put in that real
archaeologists would be sofascinated by the booby traps
Like they wouldn't care aboutthe golden idol, Like it's okay.
I mean, yes, they would careabout it, but the amount that
they could learn about theculture from this advanced
(09:45):
engineering that still workedthousands of years later.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yes, in fact, there is a delightful video called
like archaeologists react.
I will link to it in the shownotes, where these two women who
are trained archaeologists,like watch the movie and react
to different things that happen.
And that's exactly what theysay.
All of those things.
They say those things likeimagine the technology and the
fact that it still works, likewe wouldn't.
We wouldn't even get this far,we would just be like trying to
(10:10):
figure out how.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Yeah, yeah, like how did they do this?
And like get my notebook and wehave photographs.
Can we take photographs?
And like everything we'd wantto be like like dedicated team
to figure out where everythingwas, and like like that would be
the find of the century, notthe not the golden idol, right?
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yes, all of those things I will link to the
archaeologists react in the shownotes because they say exactly
what you just said, totallyvalidate what you just said.
Okay, he gets the idol.
He's leaving and he isconfronted by Rinde Bellach, a
rival, who takes the golden idolbecause he has the help of
(10:50):
indigenous people the Hovitas, Ithink and like they have a
standoff, bellach wins and Indyruns, he's manages to run,
escapes to a pontoon plane andtakes off.
We next see him teaching withthe Love you eyelids.
(11:11):
So he's teaching archaeology in.
You know, he's not wearing hislike bomber jacket, he's not
wearing a suit and the class isover.
His friend, who is anadministrator, like, comes to
say there are these Americansthere to talk to him.
Why don't know?
There are these army men totalk to him.
Why do I want to talk to him?
(11:31):
Okay, so it turns out now we,now we have the actual like West
, the Nazis are occultists andthey're gathering up all kinds
of occult things and the armyhas intercepted this message
about trying to find the Ark ofthe Covenant at Tannis in Egypt,
and it names Abner Ravenwood,who was Indy's teacher.
(11:57):
The next we see the quest hasactually been accepted.
The friend from theadministration says they're
going to pay you to go try andrecover the Ark before the Nazis
get it.
Do you know where Abner is?
I know where he might be,whatever.
So then we see the plane.
He's going to Nepal.
Now we meet Marion.
So it's a similar sort ofcredentialing scene as the Peru,
(12:21):
this time with Marion.
She is having a drinkingcontest with a much, much larger
person, presumably a nativeNepalese or Tibetan person, and
there's like a ton of shotglasses on the table.
They've clearly been going atit for a long time.
It would have killed her.
I mean yeah, it's a lot Like.
(12:44):
A lot Like in the multipledouble digits.
The other person passes out, soshe wins, so she gets all this
money.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
They all leave all the native I am wondering if she
was cheating, because she seemsto sober up pretty quickly too.
Pretty quick yeah, which I noshade.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Yeah.
So they all leave.
We see Indy's shadow and thenhe greets her, she turns around,
she punches him.
She says at one point I was achild and I was in love, and how
could you do that to me?
And he's like I didn't mean tohurt you.
So we don't know the details,but we know these two have a
history.
He was studying with her father, who we learn is now dead.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
And who kind of was furious at him for having a
relationship with Marion?
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yeah, it is implied that that was in fact.
Yes, that Marion is what?
Because she says at one point Idon't think it's in this first
scene, but at some point in themovie she says he loved you like
a son.
Nothing could have gottenbetween you and he says except
you.
So it's been 10 years sincethey've seen each other.
He says he needs this amuletthat her father had collected.
(13:56):
She says she knows which one itis.
He answered $2,000.
She says that's all, orsomething like that.
She negotiates more money fromhim Once they get what they need
.
She says come back tomorrow.
He leaves, she pulls the amuletout from she's wearing it
around her neck and we learn atthat point too that the bar is
(14:19):
hers.
He leaves and then a Nazi showsup with some local muscle, asks
for the same thing.
She's like no, get out of mybar.
And then he threatens her witha hot poker from the fire and
she's like oh crap, this is muchbigger than I thought.
(14:43):
Then Indy comes back.
There's a really big fight.
The bar is burning.
Outside the bar, indy andMarion are talking and she says
you got yourself a goddamnpartner.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
And one of the Nazis had grabbed the.
You get to that.
Oh OK, sorry, I was going toget to that.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Ok.
So they go to Cairo.
They meet up with Indy's oldfriend, salah, who is Egyptian,
and Salah Indy says it's nowonder they hired you, you're
the best digger in the country,or something along those lines.
And Salah's like no, that's notit, they hired everybody.
So the conceit is that the Arkwas stolen by a pharaoh in a
(15:32):
siege of Jerusalem around 900,980, something like that BC, and
was taken back to the city ofTannis and stored in what is
called the Well of Souls.
To find the Well of Souls youneed to go to the map room and
hold the magic amulet the onethat we were just talking about,
at the right height on a staff,and the sun will show you where
(15:56):
the Well of Souls is.
So the Nazis are here in Tannis, they've discovered Tannis,
which apparently never wentmissing, and they're looking for
the map room.
Sorry, they have the map roomand they're looking for the Well
of Souls.
Salah says they have an amulet.
(16:18):
It looks just like that one,except it's a little rougher
around the edges and it's onlyone-sided, so that it turns out
is from as you say.
The Nazi tried to grab theamulet with his bare hand, but
it had been in the flames.
So he has a burn in the shapeof the amulet.
So he was able to read some ofthe notes around the edges.
(16:39):
Salah takes Indy and the amuletto an old man who will be able
to read it.
It says the staff needs to behowever many cubits high except
it wasn't cubits, it was adifferent measure.
But the other side of theamulet says minus one in
deference to the god of the Arkof the Covenant.
(17:01):
So Salah and Indy realizethey're digging in the wrong
place.
The Nazis are digging in thewrong place, led by Rene Belak,
the guy who stole the idol backin Peru.
So surreptitiously not thatdiscreetly, honestly Not
discreet at all but somehowunnoticed, at least temporarily
(17:24):
unnoticed Indy slips into adomed map room, which domes not
exactly typical of Egyptianarchitecture, but whatever and
magic ensues as Indy finds thecorrect spot for the well of
(17:45):
souls.
Meanwhile there was a wholeaction scene where Marion was
kidnapped and Indy thinks she'sdead.
He thinks she has beendestroyed in a big truck
explosion.
He thinks she's been killed ina truck explosion.
As Indy's escaping with theknowledge of where the well of
souls is, he ducks into a tentto avoid discovery and there she
(18:08):
is tied up and gagged.
He takes the gag off.
He's going to get her out.
She's like get me out of here.
And he says wait, I can't,because then they'll know we're
here and they'll find us.
So he puts the gag back on herand leaves.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Because she's just a sack of laundry.
That's going to slow him down.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
So then, undercover of darkness, Indy and Sala and a
number of other men find thewell of souls.
They find it, they open it up,they look down and Sala's like
why is the floor moving?
Speaker 3 (18:48):
It's full of snakes, Of course it is, and that's the
one thing Indy hates is snakes.
Why wouldn't it be?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Right In our very first credentialing scene, we
saw him be completely unfazed bydead bodies, by spiders, by
poisoned arts, by things falling.
He's completely unfazed.
But then there's pet snake thatfreaks him out and he lets us
know he hates snakes.
Ok, so the floor of this wellof souls is completely covered
(19:15):
by I guess it's meant to beEgyptian asps.
I mean Sala even says that verydangerous which is a form of
cobra.
But there are all differentkinds of snakes in what we
actually see.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Well, it also doesn't make any biological sense, Like
what are they eating?
Speaker 1 (19:29):
What are they eating Each other?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
And in which case that's still not natural.
And how are they all down thereand I mean it does become they
find a way out later.
So OK, this is not still, butstill Anyway.
It's the desert and I don'treally know a whole lot about
snake biology, but it doesn'treally make sense.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, anyway, indy manages, he finds the Ark.
It's in this big stonesarcophagus.
Sala and he just the two ofthem lift a giant stone slab and
then break it.
Yeah, they get the Ark out.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
No, what an archaeologist would do.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Oh my gosh no, oh my gosh, no.
And then bring it back to wherethey had come down.
They send it, he sends it up,and then Sala goes up.
But meanwhile Belak and theNazis have discovered the folks
at the top of the hole wherethey had dropped down into it
because Tannis has been buried.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
I do want to say one thing Belak is employed by Nazis
, so he is also a Nazi.
In the same way that if there'sa table of 10 people and 10 of
them are Nazis, or nine of themare Nazis, and one person is
sitting there eating with themand perfectly happy to be eating
with them, there's 10 Nazis atthat table.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah, if the person knows they're all Nazis, yes,
and Belak knows they're Nazis.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
He knows where the money's coming from.
Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
OK.
So while Indy was destroyingancient stuff and getting the
Ark out of its resting spot,marion was doing what she could
to save herself.
So Belak the pervert gives hera dress.
She's dressed.
(21:26):
I mean, her clothes are kind ofdisheveled and ripped from the
whole kidnapping thing, but shehad been wearing like a gauzy
sort of a blouse, like a cottonblouse, and trousers like red
trousers.
So he hands her a dress andpeep-toe heels and then watches
(21:47):
in the mirror.
He turns around while shechanges, but he watches her in
the mirror as she takes off herbra, because the dress is not
really conducive to a bra,because it's got an open back.
And then she sits with him andstarts and asks if he has
anything to drink.
So she starts clearly liketrying to out-drink him, like we
(22:07):
saw when she was credentialed,and flirting with him.
I mean she's using that tool ather disposal.
And just as she realizes shecan't out-drink him because this
is his family's label, like he,grew up drinking this stuff.
But she grabs a knife and hejust kind of giggles and she's
(22:29):
starting to leave actually.
But then the other Nazis comein.
Now the two stories cometogether.
Belak says how appropriate thatyou would die and become a part
of this archaeological thing.
And then the other Nazis arelike yeah, and the girl too,
because we don't need her, eventhough Belak wants to keep her
for himself.
So she gets tossed in.
(22:50):
Well, she's a very pretty pileof laundry, yeah.
So she gets tossed in andmanages to fall gently enough
eventually on Indy that shedoesn't get hurt.
Now they're stuck in this space, but Indy manages to topple a
giant statue into a wall when henotices snakes coming through
(23:12):
it and they find their way out.
They destroy a plane and acouple of Nazis and then the ark
gets loaded onto a truck.
There's a high speed chase withlots of Nazis hanging on the
outside of trucks and Indygetting shot and punched and
dragging underneath of a truckand then hiding the truck in
(23:38):
like a square.
So Indy now has possession ofthe Ark.
He's reunited with Marion.
They loaded on a ship captainedby a guy who saw Linos, who
vows to protect them.
The Nazis find them on the highseas.
They take Marion, though thecaptain tries to protect her but
(24:04):
he's unable.
So they take Marion.
Indy swims over to thesubmarine and rides it.
I guess While it is in the holdof the ship, the crate holding
the Ark, like the Nazi symbol onthe outside, gets burned off.
(24:29):
That actually is our firstindication that there is In fact
.
It's not just what Indy hassaid before, it's not just mumbo
jumbo.
There's something genuinelysupernatural about this thing.
They take it to an island whereBelak wants to do a some sort
of ritual and open it so theycan see if the tablets are
(24:52):
inside.
They believe the Nazis andBelak, I suppose, believe that
there is weaponizable power inthe fragments of the original
tablets which are meant to beinside the Ark.
So after a bit of a standoffand some chasing where the Nazis
(25:13):
win more or less in thestandoff, indian Marion are tied
together to a post back to back.
Belak is wearing anapproximation of the vestments
of a high priest as described inthe Torah.
The Ark is like at like a highpoint, with a whole, whole bunch
of Nazis in uniform and two ofthe like sort of higher up Nazis
(25:37):
who we've seen before aroundthem.
He does some sort of ritual.
He's speaking Aramaic, I think.
I didn't go to like figure itout.
It did not sound right.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
To me yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
I mean, for one thing it didn't end with amen, amen
or Amin, but whatever Anyway.
So after he does this, thenthey open it up and there's just
sand inside and they're likevery disappointed.
But then like starts to be likelightning and thunder and Indy
(26:14):
says, marion, close your eyes,don't look, don't look, no
matter what happens.
And then we watch as these likeghouly, kind of like like
apparitions, like ghosty lookingclouds, but then they have
human faces kind of come out andthe Nazis are like oh, it's
beautiful, and bellox like superexcited, but then it turns ugly
and they are like skull facesand lightning like hits bellox
(26:39):
and then shoots out to a bunchof Nazis and then the top Nazis
faces melt what you remember?
And then everything, everythinggets sucked back up into the
Ark and the lid gets put back onit.
Marion and Indy open their eyestheir bonds have been destroyed
and like yay, they won.
(27:00):
Final, final scene in theoriginal Army guys who first
told us about this the Naziswere looking for it are back
with Indy and his friend whosename I totally don't remember,
doesn't matter Talking aboutwhat happened to the Ark and how
it needs to be studied.
And the Army guys are like, yes, and we have our top men
(27:22):
working on it.
And Indy's like who?
Because you know, I guess it'sa small enough industry that he
knows all the top men.
And the guy goes top men.
And then we see, oh, and thenthere's the scene that you
remember.
He comes out and he's sofrustrated and because they
don't know what they have, butMarion knows what she has, so
(27:43):
they're going to go get a drink.
And then the very, very finalscene we see the Ark being put
into a crate, a wooden crate,with like property of US top
secret, us something or other onthe side, and being wheeled
into a ginormous warehouse ofsimilar crates.
And that's the end.
(28:05):
So I know that wasn't concise.
I'm sorry, I'm really bad atconcise summaries of what we
were watching.
There's just so much good stuff.
So let me start, let me startwith gender in this movie,
because that's where we so oftenstart.
So get it out of the way.
Nope, doesn't pass back to noteven close.
(28:26):
Is there another woman otherthan the love you girl?
There are other, like Salah's.
I don't know if it's Salah'swife, but there is a woman when
he meets Salah who's servingwine, which, also in Egypt,
feels weird.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Really I think so, because there are.
There are Christians in Egypt,the copped COPT copped Store.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Yes, anyway, doesn't matter.
But yeah.
Ok, so there are, like we do,and in fact there's a lot of
children, children, save Indyfrom Belak at one point, by just
just by being around him.
So because they know that thebad guys won't hurt kids.
There seem to be some girlsamong among that group of kids.
(29:09):
None of them have names.
Marion is the only named womanand she does not speak to any
other women, so it doesn't evencome close to passing back to
that said, marion is prettyfrigging awesome, and not in a
like I mean a little bit in anot like other girls way,
(29:30):
because, like, she can drinkthat person under the table, but
not in a perfect sort of way.
Yeah, which I think is really, Ifind really refreshing.
She also is not, though shedoes need saving, or she
actually.
Let me rephrase that, thoughshe is saved a few times, she
also does some saving, and shecertainly does not wait around
(29:52):
for the saving, like from thevery beginning we see her, you
know, from that first fightscene with the Nazis.
we see her fighting back andfighting back hard, which I
deeply appreciate, you know,especially thinking about, like
Princess Buttercup ourconversation about Buttercup,
for instance where like,couldn't you had her?
Like grab a stick and bash theROUS.
(30:13):
Marion grabs the stick andbashes the Nazis and has a gun
and shoot someone who's about toshoot India.
At one point she hits peoplewith torches and with frying
pans.
Like this woman is not a bottleof alcohol too, doesn't she?
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Well?
Speaker 1 (30:32):
she hands a bottle of whiskey to Indy, who uses it?
Gotcha, ok, ok.
So that's pretty awesome.
She is not a shrinking violet.
I think it's also significantthat the movie makers chose to
make the bar hers.
She wasn't just working there,it was her bar.
When she tells Indy she'scoming with him, she doesn't
(30:55):
just say I'm coming with you,she says I'm your goddamn
partner, right?
So I think there are thingsabout Marion that are flippin'
awesome.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
Yeah, especially 1936 .
That's when it's set yes, thatit's set in 1936, that she is,
and that's like I don't thinkthat that is not to say unusual.
I'm thinking of movies fromlike the 30s and 40s with, like
Catherine Hepburn and like, yeah, that there's.
There's that kind of core oflike don't fuck with me that you
(31:30):
get from, from heroines fromthat time period, and I feel
like she fits in nicely there in, but in a way that is also
reasonable for 1981.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Yeah, yeah, I also like that.
She is a sexual creature, right, she uses her sexuality against
Balak and then in one moment ofcaregiving, when they're on the
boat, indy is totally torn upfrom his like High speed,
everything, fight with the Nazis, and she's trying to help tend
(32:02):
his wounds and he like keepsflinching away because it hurts.
So finally she's like damn itwhat doesn't hurt.
And like he points to his elbowwhen he points to his spot on
his forehead and he points to apoint, point in a jaw, and then
he points to his lips and theystart kissing and she's
disappointed that he fallsasleep, like she clearly is
disappointed.
So I like that about her.
(32:22):
That feels like empowering andsubversive.
You know that it's not, thoughhe does point to his lips in
that moment.
It's an invitation that shetakes up.
It's not, it's not forced onher, it's not, she's not
reluctant.
There's something empoweringabout Mary and sexuality in this
(32:46):
movie.
Okay, now we've talked aboutfemale gender or presentation of
female gender in this movie.
I really want to talk aboutmasculinity in this movie
because Ford, indiana Jones, asplayed by Harrison Ford, is like
hyper masculine.
In some ways he is invincible.
(33:08):
I mean they had to give him anAchilles heel and so it snakes.
But it's almost like her laughsbecause he is unstoppable.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Well, and the thing that he doesn't like is other
people's penises.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
I mean like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
I mean it snakes that he has a problem with not
spiders, right you know, becausethere's right, right.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
And if he doesn't flinch at all from the, they're
like giant tarantulas on him andon his companion in the in the
very first scene, and he doesn'tflinch at all.
He just doesn't bother with hiswith his whip.
He does use a whip as his weaponof choice or tool of choice,
because he doesn't just he use,he does use his weapon, but it's
not his only weapon and it isappreciated Like we see the love
(33:59):
you girl right, like he is justdashing and there's something
incomplete about that.
I mean so much so that, like,despite what I just said about
marrying sexuality, there'ssomething like I don't know,
(34:22):
that just doesn't Hang togetherfor me.
Mm, hmm, about.
His sexuality.
I mean, he clearly has ahistory with Marion and there's
meant to be a thing there, mmhmm.
But I almost don't believe it,maybe because he leaves her
there and puts the gag back onher.
(34:43):
I mean, I was thinking about itafter watching out.
The movie does not at any pointsuggest explicitly that Marion
suffers sexual assault.
It does not suggest that, butit does suggest she was going to
be tortured by the same guy whothreatened her with the hot
(35:05):
poker, mm hmm.
And in the ass to have knownthat that was a possibility.
And he put the gag back on her.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Well, when he puts the gag back on her.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
she's still wearing the Blowshine.
She's still wearing the righttrousers.
Ok, gotcha.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
Yeah, but they're torn up, yeah, yeah.
The sleeves are torn in things,something that I know about the
making of this movie, the scenewhere Indy's friend from the
university his name, wita can'tremember comes to his house and
he starts packing yeah, indy'sin a bathrobe.
Yeah, indy's in a bathrobe.
(35:45):
Yeah, that was.
There was an extended scene andhe had a woman there that ended
up getting cut.
So this like idea of him beinglike a rockstar archaeologist
with groupies you know is, issomething they really wanted to.
And they show him being likedisconcerted a little bit by the
(36:05):
, the Love you girl.
Yeah, but that seems more likejust context rather than like
this is the wrong context forthis.
Like talk to me in my office.
And then the other thing that Iknow about the making of this
and I believe it was GeorgeLucas, which, because George
Lucas, was involved in makingthis as well, he was one of the
producers.
(36:26):
Wanted the backstory betweenMary and Indy, that she was a
literal child, as in like 13 or14.
And so she's like 23 or 24 now.
Ew, yes, ew.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Yes, it's been 10 years, and watching it, I
imagine like she was like 22 andnow she's 32.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Yeah, and that's what they ended up doing.
But Lucas originally was justlike.
I just think it would be reallyinteresting if she were, I mean
, maybe as old as 15, but andit's just like, ew, yeah.
Now, where I find this is veryinteresting is I know that
George Lucas and StevenSpielberg were inspired by the
(37:11):
novels of writer Haggard.
He was a like the most popularnovelist in the world in like
late 1800s, early, early 20thcentury.
The two most famous novels wereKing Solomon's, mines and she.
I've read them both.
When I was in college, I did aindependent study on literature
of British imperialism andHaggard was someone that I
(37:31):
studied.
It's been years, like more than20 years, so I don't remember
details.
She is about a woman who issomething supernatural.
She's thousands upon thousandsof years old.
She is short for she, who mustnot be named.
I don't remember what heractual name was and there is a
point where whatever the magicis that keeps her looking
(37:54):
youthful goes away and she ageslike a thousand years in a
moment and like really goes intodetail about how she becomes
like this monkey looking thingbefore she ultimately dies.
Writer Haggard had a realproblem with women and the fact
(38:16):
that a woman would want toretain youth and beauty is both
considered like, like how dareshe try to grab that power?
But also how dare women age?
And so like there's so much inthere.
And then the fact that GeorgeLucas had this like, oh yeah,
really young, I think theyreally interesting.
And so like the fact that thelike youth of Marion was what
(38:44):
was so fascinating to thefilmmaker.
And even with that, like KarenAllen is younger than Harrison
Ford Not by that much, I mean,it would have been like, I think
even like she could have beenlike 19 or 20 when he was like
28 or 29.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Yeah, that's actually what I sort of expect If he was
like a graduate student of herfather.
So she's like 20 and he's like26.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
And I don't know age and appropriate.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Yeah, I haven't looked it up.
Speaker 3 (39:13):
I don't know what the actual difference is, but I
think it's about 10 or 12 yearsbetween Harrison.
Ford and Karen Allen.
Yeah, Actually let me look it upHarrison Ford 1942, Karen Allen
1951.
There's a nine year differencebetween them, so like a 28 year
old with a 19 year old, sothat's pretty big that's that's
(39:33):
I would be if I had a 19 yearold child.
I would be concerned Very andwould lead to the the
dissolution of a relationshipwith the, the.
So that makes sense.
Yeah, but it also like that atleast is the same thing, that at
least is.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
It's not reasonable.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Yeah yeah, that is too adult, able to consent.
Yeah, yeah.
So anyway, I think that that isvery interesting, that there is
this like obsession with youthand beauty, and that's part of
like Bellach's obsession withMarion is her beauty.
He doesn't actually know her asa person, like he talks about
(40:13):
liking how feisty she is, butit's like, but it's still a
challenge to be conquered.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Yeah, yes, yeah, yes.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
And similar to everything that they're doing
with the archaeology, is achallenge to be conquered.
Yeah, it is not actually aboutknowledge.
It's not actually about betterunderstanding history and where
human beings came from, and likewhat was important to the two
are our distant ancestors or thedistant ancestors of people in
other places.
Like the fact that they open inSouth America and they don't
(40:47):
specify where, as if all ofSouth America is the same.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah, Well, and even I mean even the interest in the
in the arc is about thepotential weaponization of it.
Yes, at least from the Nazis,but yes, but let's.
Let's get into that, thoughlet's actually talk about that,
because you brought in Britishimperialism by bringing in
writer Haggard.
So let's talk about imperialismand some of the like underlying
ideologies here, because Ithink that's relevant to the, to
(41:13):
the archaeology question, mm.
Hmm, I don't think it's in thismovie, but Indiana Jones is
famous for saying that belongsin a museum, right.
Even that sentiment, which heholds passionately, is
imperialism, the white saviorism.
It's, it's and it's white, it'swhite supremacy and it's
(41:34):
European supremacy.
Like no, that belongs with thepeople to whom it has meaning,
mm hmm, and the even the waythat it's treated.
So Jones says early on I don'tbelieve in that mumbo jumbo.
Right so, and the movie makersfollow us right like that golden
(41:55):
idol, that the Hovita's revereis just a hunk of gold, mm, hmm,
the Ark of the Covenant fromJewish and therefore Christian.
Mm, hmm.
Folklore that's the word thatIndige uses in his classroom.
That has real power, thatshit's real.
That connects us to God, yeah,and so, like, like.
(42:18):
Baked in to the cosmology ofthe metaphysics under
underlining this movie, isEuropean supremacy.
Mm, hmm.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Well, and when we talked a little bit before we
started recording, alfred Molinoplays Sopito, who is the last
of Indy's guides.
At the very beginning, alfredMolino is a British actor.
I looked him up and realizedhis father was Italian, his
mother was Spanish, or viceversa might be mother was
Italian, father was Spanish, buthe was born in England.
(42:50):
So he is playing a Peruvian, orI mean Unspecified South.
American.
South American with an accentwhich, considering the fact that
one of his parents was a nativeSpanish speaker, made me feel a
little bit better about that,but it's still not the same,
yeah.
And then Jonathan Rhys Davies,who plays Sala, and I have to
(43:13):
say I have a great deal ofaffection for that actor.
He also played Gimli the dwarfin the Lord of the Rings trilogy
.
He is a Welsh actor who has agorgeous voice.
He is a white Welshman playingin Egyptian and it's a similar
sort of thing like, oh, if it'sa speaking role, we got to give
(43:34):
a white guy that job.
Yeah, and there's, it's asimilar sort of supremacy.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Yeah, like, baked into the sort of meta piece of
it in terms of the castingchoices, there's also the moment
, from the very beginning.
Well, first of all, like Indy'slike completely disturbing this
indigenous space, the holyspace, without any kind of
consent from, from thedescendants of those who put it
(44:00):
there, okay, okay, just to graba piece of gold.
Yeah, yeah, the descendants ofthose who put it there.
And they are under the I don'teven know what to say it like
it's not just employee, becausethe influence like Belak, this
(44:21):
white Frenchman, has theirloyalty and controls them,
because he can speak theirlanguage, like the visual of the
symbolism of these natives, andI'm using that word
intentionally, because the moviemakers give us these indigenous
(44:44):
people as savages, mostly naked, shooting poison darts, like it
is just playing on all kinds ofstereotypes, european
stereotypes of savages, like I'musing that word intentionally.
That's what they are giving usunder the control of this white
(45:08):
Frenchman.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
Now I do want to say I like the fact that Belak took
the time to learn the languageand speak to them Like I've.
In some ways it's gross thatthe movie then says like okay,
and so now you know he has theirloyalty.
But the thing is that is whatyou should be doing.
You should be learning that.
(45:30):
Oh, of course I'm notsuggesting that like, yeah, but
that to me and like, and this Imight be putting too much on
this, but my other major incollege was French literature
and there was a joke was likewhat do you call someone who
speaks three languagestri-lingual, someone who speaks
two languages bilingual, someonewho speaks one language,
american, yeah, and so there isa sense there that, like Indy is
(45:52):
very much first asked questionslater very American.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Yes, all of those things.
And even with that, theimplication for us, the viewer,
from the movie makers is thatBelak is somehow savvy and
sneaky Not that he's like, andhe certainly is not doing the
Jovitas any favors In fact theconversation in English between
him and Indy.
(46:17):
Indy says they don't, theJovitas don't know you like I do
.
And he says Belak says well,you could warn them if you spoke
Jovitas.
And then he says something inJovitas to them, so like yes,
and that's not what the moviemakers are giving us.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
No, no, it's interesting because what it
shows us because Belak is theone who insists on doing the
ritual at the end ends in theNazis deaths, and his own and
his own, yes, and it feels likethere's this comparison with
(46:58):
Indy, because he, like, immerseshimself more and it gets into a
sticky end and Indy keepshimself above, like he doesn't
learn Jovitas, he doesn'tactually believe in the stuff
until because he never wouldhave opened the arc, he just
would have taken it to study itor whatever, and so, like he
(47:19):
wins.
In the end Belak loses and it'sjust, it's very bizarre.
I also I do want to talk aboutthe arc of Indy's like character
arc, because he's I don'tbelieve in that mumbo jumbo, but
he's right enough about it toknow that if he closes his eyes
(47:40):
he'll survive, and when thechips fall he's like all right,
I'm just going to believe themumbo jumbo.
I've read, and so it would bereally interesting because it's
now a franchise.
Now, I've only seen the firstthree.
I've not seen the tworelatively recent ones.
The next one was a prequel, sookay, but then, oh, what's the
(48:04):
one with Sean Connery?
What is that one?
You know which one?
I mean?
The last crusade, the lastcrusade.
Okay, so in the last crusade hehas gone back to I don't
believe that mumbo jumbo and solike there is an interesting
character arc there where it'slike he actually has proof it
(48:24):
happened in front of him.
Now he didn't see it, but Nazisall died and he had to have
heard what was going on.
And then he goes right back tolike no, I'm a rational man, I'm
a rational man of science, andit's like what is that saying to
us?
Like, what is that saying aboutmasculinity?
What is that saying about?
Speaker 1 (48:45):
I think those are good questions and I wanna add
additional questions to itbecause I think part of
bellach's downfall is hubris.
I mean, he is dressed in thevestments of the high priest, or
some approximation of that asdescribed in the Torah.
But here's the thing.
So we're told by the guy whosename we don't know that the arc
(49:09):
could level mountains, that theBible says the arc could level
mountains.
The Bible says no such thing.
The arc is in fact, powerful,but not like that.
So the one that always sticks inmy head because it's always
bothered me there's a storywhere King David is bringing the
arc into Jerusalem, becausewe've had this for a while, like
in the Tabernacle, when thepeople were traveling in the
(49:31):
wilderness.
We're building Jerusalem.
King David is bringing the arc,he's super excited about the
arc, he's dancing in front of itand it starts to slip on its
cart and poor Uzza just somedude who's walking behind it
like reaches out to study itcause the thing's gonna fall and
is instantly struck dead Causehe dared touch the thing without
(49:51):
being in the right state.
A non Jew, a non-cohein priestwho would deign to perform some
sort of ceremony with somethingas holy as the arc was gonna die
(50:13):
.
If the mumbo jumbo is real fromthe Bible, belak would have
known that, like even in thefictional world of Indiana Jones
.
And so there's something like,in addition to the questions
that you're asking about, likethis push pull of like
(50:36):
metaphysics as well but I onlybelieve in physics and reason
there's also this like keepingyour place sort of within the
holiness hierarchy, which ispart of like what closing your
eyes is.
Like no one can see my face andlive.
I mean, there's nothing thatsays you can't see the content.
(50:58):
Like that's not exact.
It's kind of like extrapolatedmaybe, like God does tell Moses
no one can see my face and live.
That's not what's happeningLike it's so it's made up.
Yeah, it's made up.
But even within sort of thealternate universe of Indiana
Jones, I do feel like there'ssome hubris in Belak believing
(51:23):
that he could do this, whichisn't the same sort of thing
Like he believes it because he'sbeen getting away with it.
He learned Jovitas and becamethe boss of the Jovitas, so of
course he can learn the whateverancient version of Hebrew and
be the boss of the art.
Indy knows better than thatMaybe.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
It's interesting just because it gets into.
It's based on historical factthat Hitler was interested in
occult objects.
I don't know if Hitler wasinterested in the Ark of the
Covenant or anything like thatfrom the history of Judaism.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
Well, they have the.
I mean in the movie.
They have one of the Nazis sayI'm uncomfortable with this
Jewish ritual.
Are you sure we need to do this?
That's how Belak condenses themto do it, as you noted, which
all of the Belak hadn't, andthen presumably the Ward of
Windemann over a lot faster.
Yeah, Because Hitler would have.
Speaker 3 (52:21):
Well, it was 1936, he would have yeah, there would
have been, we would have savedmillions of lives.
Millions of lives, yes, but theLike the thing is, you get this
like kind of weird tension aswell.
If Hitler is looking for andjust in the universe of Raiders
of the Lost Ark, hitler islooking for these legendary
(52:43):
weapons from the Torah andhistory, while wanting them to
destroy Jews, and it's like, whywould you think that would work
for you?
Speaker 1 (52:56):
Yeah, I mean that actually because of Christian
supremacy and and and supersupercessionism that actually
feels pretty much explainableLike yeah, supercessionism being
what it is like anything thatbelonged to Jews is now
Christian and the Jews no longerhave claim on it.
That's, that's just like the,you know the classic.
(53:17):
It's on that cathedral rightwhen the ecclesiastica has
defeated synagogue.
Like, oh gosh, I don't knowthat, wow, I'll link to it in
the show notes.
Like there's a cathedral inEurope with like a figure
they're both female, but she'slike holding a cross and she's
victorious.
And then there's another figurethat's meant to be synagogue,
(53:38):
the synagogue and it's.
She's holding a staff with astar of David and she's
blindfolded and broken.
And yeah, yeah, well, andactually doesn't feel hard to
answer, even in our universe.
Speaker 3 (53:52):
That's true.
I just kind of I think it'sworth highlighting the logic of
it, the hypocrisy of it,absolutely yeah, the hypocrisy
of it.
And then also the fact thatSteven Spielberg is Jewish yeah,
like, I think that like there'sa reason why it's right as the
lost Ark I mean, we got get tothe Holy Grail with last crusade
.
Speaker 1 (54:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (54:12):
But you know he starts with the Ark.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
Yeah, and there's definitely a comment that the
Nazi symbol gets burned off.
That I pointed out in my yes,yes, yes, absolutely.
I mean the Nazi space is burnedoff, melted off.
Speaker 3 (54:26):
Yeah, and that is such a useful symbol.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
Absolutely Well.
We've been recording for aminute.
I feel like there are otherthings that I could say about
this movie.
I mean, like, like the bodycount is really high.
I feel like some of the, evenin what we've been talking about
right now, I feel like there'sa bit of fetishization of
ancient people, includingIsraelites, and sort of the
(54:52):
ancient Jewish practice.
That is worth on packing, but Idon't have time to unpack right
now.
Speaker 3 (54:58):
So I do want to make one comment.
There's that famous scene wherethere's extended fight scene
and then there's a guy with agiant knife or sword and he's
doing all these things and Indyjust takes his gun and shoots
him in the head.
And it's very funny like thetiming and the reason behind it
is because Harrison Ford hadgotten like dysentery or
(55:19):
something like that.
Speaker 2 (55:20):
And so like I was having over, but yeah no, no, he
was sick.
Speaker 3 (55:24):
He was sick and so, like there was supposed to be an
extended sword fight scene andthey're like, ok, we'll cut it
and here's how we do it, but theeffect is more of this like
Western and white supremacy.
Yeah, it's like I have thebetter weapon.
Yeah, you have all thisflourish and it's meaningless in
(55:46):
the face of my better weaponry,which, like it's so well done
in terms of comedic timing, evenjust thinking about the fact
that it's a dead person and thereason for it.
It gets into what I love aboutlike storytelling and stuff.
Like that is like you know,sometimes you got a swerve
(56:06):
because of like an actor is sickand you end up making this
iconic moment, but then it'slike what is it telling us?
Speaker 1 (56:13):
Yeah, this iconic moment.
What lessons is it imparting?
What?
Speaker 3 (56:15):
lessons are we learning, and it's not pretty.
Speaker 1 (56:18):
Yeah, yeah, I feel like I'm going to have a hard
time like summing up, but I willtry.
I will try.
So gender we do not pass thebackdale test and Marianne has
greater agency and more power,in both traditionally feminine,
coded ways through her sexuality, and in traditionally male
(56:41):
coded ways through, likephysically hitting people
through out drinking people.
Masculinity as performed inthis movie is over the top,
perfect, macho, unflinching.
The colonialism slashimperialism, slash white
supremacy slash Europeansupremacy in this movie is both
(57:06):
overt and covert, which is whichis interesting, it really is.
It really is.
It's both baked into themetaphysics of what happens in
this movie and also justoutwardly performed over and,
over and over again.
It's also like a reallypowerful example of this medium
(57:29):
in terms of the ways that it isable to move the viewer through
the score, through the action,like through kind of the, the
build, the shadows.
Speaker 3 (57:39):
Like the way they use shadows as amazing.
Speaker 1 (57:42):
The crescendo of stakes like what is at stake,
even by setting it with Nazis asthe bad guys, kind of raised
the stakes on this weird sort ofmystery goose hunt Adventure
tale.
Yeah, yeah, let me see whatelse.
Speaker 3 (57:58):
The idea of hubris yeah, and how that I mean,
because that's even part of whatIndy has a problem with at the
end is like you need peoplestudying this and they're like,
oh, we've got it, even thoughthey're doing nothing.
And the hubris of like that youcan keep it contained by
putting it in obscurity.
(58:19):
Like that.
There's a lot of menace to theend of this film.
Speaker 1 (58:23):
Yeah, oh.
The other thing is sort of thelike basic fact checking, which
I think others have done really,really well.
I'll link to this, yeah, thearchaeologists.
I'll link to another thing thatI read Like there's, there's a
kernel of truth to the idea ofthe Ark of the Tablets, the Ark
of the Covenant there was.
There is described a thing suchas this it did not go missing
(58:47):
when an Egyptian, pharaoh thatPharaoh did in fact exist and
did sack Jerusalem, but evidenceseems to suggest the Ark was
still in Jerusalem until theBabylonians destroyed the first
temple in 587 BC, so another 400years after.
Indiana Jones claims that itwas taken to.
And it was taken to Tannis,which was the capital of the
(59:10):
Egyptian kingdom, and did getabandoned because of shifting
the shifting nature of the Nile.
It was not a year longsandstorm and even like sort of
what the Ark is purported to becapable of.
Like there's there's someserious fact checking that needs
to happen, or we just need toaccept that we're in an
(59:31):
alternate universe.
Speaker 3 (59:32):
Yeah, just fine.
Speaker 1 (59:34):
So it's streaming on Disney Plus now, apparently,
disney has gotten the rights tothe Indiana Jones franchise.
I think it's worth revisiting.
It's a fun thing to watch, witha huge grain of salt and an
analysis of sort of what it isthat we're watching.
(59:56):
Yeah, did I forget anything?
Anything you want to add beforewe turn our attention?
Speaker 3 (01:00:03):
No, no.
I think that's a pretty goodbreakdown of what we talked
about.
Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
Cool.
So next week I think you'rebringing me some deep thoughts.
Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
Yes, I am going to bring my deep thoughts about
Clueless, the 1995 film withAlicia Silverstone that I was a
little obsessed with in highschool.
Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Awesome, can't wait, so I'll see you then.
See you then.
Hey you, yeah you.
You're a deep thinker, I cantell.
Let's make it official.
Head on over to our website,guygirlsmediacom, and make sure
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Until next time, remember, popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
This is Tracy Guy-Dekker and you're listening
to Deep Thoughts about StupidShit, because pop culture is
still culture, and shouldn't youknow what's in your head?
Today, I'll be sharing my DeepThoughts about Indiana Jones and
the Raiders of the Lost Arkwith my sister, emily Guy-Burken
, and with you.
Let's dive in.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
(00:22):
just pop culture, what othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you knowwhat's worth talking and
thinking about, and so do we.
So come over and think with usas we delve into our Deep
Thoughts about Stupid Shit.
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Okay, this one is like.
This feels like a pillar of ourchildhood.
For some reason it's a 1981film, so we were quite young
(01:05):
when it was first released.
I remember watching it like onon TVs.
So I don't think we werewatching it in 1981, but
certainly in the 80s.
But tell me what you you know,what you remember, what you know
about the Raiders of the LostArk.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
So I remember the Nazi's faces is melting at the
end because it is horrifying andcool and kind of equal measures
.
I remember the very beginningwith the huge boulder, when he
subs out the golden idol for thebag of sand.
I remember Marion, played byKaren Allen.
(01:44):
Yes, yeah.
And I remember really liking her, but also like, even as a kid,
at the end Indiana Jones saysthey don't know what they've got
and she's like, well, I knowwhat I've, I know what I've got.
Let's get a drink.
And it's just like where did?
Why are you a bubble head?
All of a sudden, like that linedoesn't even make sense and
(02:08):
like what is wrong with you?
Where's the woman out drinking?
The giant Tibetan guy that wefirst met, and I remember the
monkey and feeling terrible forthe monkey and the staff that
they use to figure out wherethings are and being very
(02:28):
excited by the idea of this likemillennial old scavenger hunt.
Like that there was somethingvery appealing to me about that.
Oh, and then the snake thatgoes through the peep toe of her
shoe, because that was anotherlike equal measure horrifying
and cool.
So I know there's, oh, there's,traveling via map, which I feel
(02:55):
like this.
I'm sure this wasn't what whatintroduced that idea.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
No, but I think it did popularize it, yeah, and I
think I think it really did kindof like solidify it as like a
vehicle for showing travel, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
And then I remember it early on, Jones is teaching a
class and it's full of youngwomen because he's Harrison Ford
in his prime and there's onewho had written love on one
eyelid and you on the other.
And I remember as a kid goinglike why did she do that?
Because even though I was likecommitted to very handsome men,
(03:33):
it was like that wasn't a thingin this movie, and also like
trying to figure out, like howdo you do that?
Because your eyes would have tobe closed and would you get a
friend to help and who wouldhelp you with that.
I spent way too long thinkingabout it.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
You heard it here first.
We've been overthinking sincewe were children.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Since like age five.
So there's there's a lot ofrandom stuff in there that that
I remember.
I also feel like even as a kid,I felt this kind of like oh,
(04:14):
that's cool affinity for thefact that they were searching
for an important artifact ofJudaism, and so it felt like, oh
, this, this movie is mine in away that I didn't necessarily
feel about pop culture becauseit was.
You know, judaism was not oftenbrought up unless it was like,
(04:36):
oh, yeah, yeah, they're havingHanukkah.
That was a bit so.
So there was something that Ireally appreciated about that
and felt like like I was one ofthe cool kids, even though I
didn't really understand a wordof what they're talking about,
and much of my understanding oflike the Ark of the Covenant
came from this film.
But still it was just like, andit's mine, it's why I'm one of
(04:59):
the group.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout this film today?
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, well, as I said , this feels like a pillar of
our childhood in terms of popculture, like I remember Dad
just being totally tickled bythis movie, like specific
moments, but just in general,like just really liking this
movie, and so it kind of likestands out in that sense from
our childhood and it is so.
(05:26):
My brother-in-law is a studentof archaeology that's not what
he's doing now, but like has amaster's degree in archaeology
and anthropology and he saysthat he followed that path
because of this movie.
And I've realized that actuallythat's true of like 90% of
people who are currently inarchaeology, like they're there
(05:48):
because of this movie.
And so I thought, you know thisit's, it's become such a
touchstone of pop culture, likeso much has derived from it or
influenced by it, that I wantedto take a look back at it now
with today's eyes andunfortunately I'm not really
excited about what I'm seeing,hate to say it.
(06:11):
Yeah, so I'm going to want totalk about and actually even
since I initially, like beforewe started recording, I told
Emily the two buckets that Iwanted to talk about, and now it
keeps expanding, as I'mthinking but so I really want to
talk about gender in this movie, not just.
We often talk about femalerepresentation.
I do want to talk about Marion,but I also want to talk about
(06:34):
masculinity in this movie andwhat it has to say, what this
movie has to say aboutmasculinity, the constellation
of colonialism and imperialismand white supremacy and European
supremacy specifically.
There's a whole lot in thismovie about that, even as
regards Jewish stuff.
(06:55):
Maybe I shouldn't say even likethat's a part of it.
I also want to talk about,maybe just briefly, some of the
cinematic, cinematic choices.
This movie was directed bySteven Spielberg, won awards,
like it's a remarkable piece ofentertainment of the medium that
(07:17):
I think I just want to at leastname For one thing, rewatching
it.
The score is its own character,it's really remarkable score
and I feel like this moviehelped teach me that.
The atmospheric music helps meknow how I'm supposed to feel.
So all of these things.
(07:38):
It's been a very, veryinfluential movie, not just on
us but on the culture.
So that's why I wanted to takea minute and look back on it,
and I know that you've seen itrecently and you have some
specific training too in sort ofthinking about colonialists and
British literature.
So please like interject alongthe way.
But I'll start with a briefrecap of what happens in this
(08:00):
movie.
I'll try and keep it brief.
I'm not always good at that soI will do my best.
We can always cut and post.
I will do my best.
So I do think it's worth namingwe open.
We open credentialing this man,indiana Jones, harrison Ford who
, you're right, is absolutelygorgeous in this movie.
I mean whoa, anyway, we open onhim.
(08:22):
In it just says South America.
I think it's meant to be Peru,but it's actually.
The movie itself doesn't tellus that, it just says South
America in 1936.
And he is tracking down anancient temple with a whole host
of guides who sort of one byone, kind of peel off, either by
abandoning him or dying.
(08:44):
It's remarkable.
Anyway, he finds this templewhich is totally booby trapped.
There's bodies everywhere.
He manages to take the goldenidol, which is a little statue
about six inches tall, as younoted, by replacing it with a
bag of sand.
It's not good enough.
(09:05):
Releases more booby traps,including this perfectly
spherical boulder which I thinkif he had just ducked when he
first saw it, it would havecleared the path for him instead
of him being chased by it.
But whatever, that's another.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
I just I also I want to put in that real
archaeologists would be sofascinated by the booby traps
Like they wouldn't care aboutthe golden idol, Like it's okay.
I mean, yes, they would careabout it, but the amount that
they could learn about theculture from this advanced
(09:45):
engineering that still workedthousands of years later.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yes, in fact, there is a delightful video called
like archaeologists react.
I will link to it in the shownotes, where these two women who
are trained archaeologists,like watch the movie and react
to different things that happen.
And that's exactly what theysay.
All of those things.
They say those things likeimagine the technology and the
fact that it still works, likewe wouldn't.
We wouldn't even get this far,we would just be like trying to
(10:10):
figure out how.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Yeah, yeah, like how did they do this?
And like get my notebook and wehave photographs.
Can we take photographs?
And like everything we'd wantto be like like dedicated team
to figure out where everythingwas, and like like that would be
the find of the century, notthe not the golden idol, right?
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yes, all of those things I will link to the
archaeologists react in the shownotes because they say exactly
what you just said, totallyvalidate what you just said.
Okay, he gets the idol.
He's leaving and he isconfronted by Rinde Bellach, a
rival, who takes the golden idolbecause he has the help of
(10:50):
indigenous people the Hovitas, Ithink and like they have a
standoff, bellach wins and Indyruns, he's manages to run,
escapes to a pontoon plane andtakes off.
We next see him teaching withthe Love you eyelids.
(11:11):
So he's teaching archaeology in.
You know, he's not wearing hislike bomber jacket, he's not
wearing a suit and the class isover.
His friend, who is anadministrator, like, comes to
say there are these Americansthere to talk to him.
Why don't know?
There are these army men totalk to him.
Why do I want to talk to him?
(11:31):
Okay, so it turns out now we,now we have the actual like West
, the Nazis are occultists andthey're gathering up all kinds
of occult things and the armyhas intercepted this message
about trying to find the Ark ofthe Covenant at Tannis in Egypt,
and it names Abner Ravenwood,who was Indy's teacher.
(11:57):
The next we see the quest hasactually been accepted.
The friend from theadministration says they're
going to pay you to go try andrecover the Ark before the Nazis
get it.
Do you know where Abner is?
I know where he might be,whatever.
So then we see the plane.
He's going to Nepal.
Now we meet Marion.
So it's a similar sort ofcredentialing scene as the Peru,
(12:21):
this time with Marion.
She is having a drinkingcontest with a much, much larger
person, presumably a nativeNepalese or Tibetan person, and
there's like a ton of shotglasses on the table.
They've clearly been going atit for a long time.
It would have killed her.
I mean yeah, it's a lot Like.
(12:44):
A lot Like in the multipledouble digits.
The other person passes out, soshe wins, so she gets all this
money.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
They all leave all the native I am wondering if she
was cheating, because she seemsto sober up pretty quickly too.
Pretty quick yeah, which I noshade.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Yeah.
So they all leave.
We see Indy's shadow and thenhe greets her, she turns around,
she punches him.
She says at one point I was achild and I was in love, and how
could you do that to me?
And he's like I didn't mean tohurt you.
So we don't know the details,but we know these two have a
history.
He was studying with her father, who we learn is now dead.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
And who kind of was furious at him for having a
relationship with Marion?
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yeah, it is implied that that was in fact.
Yes, that Marion is what?
Because she says at one point Idon't think it's in this first
scene, but at some point in themovie she says he loved you like
a son.
Nothing could have gottenbetween you and he says except
you.
So it's been 10 years sincethey've seen each other.
He says he needs this amuletthat her father had collected.
(13:56):
She says she knows which one itis.
He answered $2,000.
She says that's all, orsomething like that.
She negotiates more money fromhim Once they get what they need
.
She says come back tomorrow.
He leaves, she pulls the amuletout from she's wearing it
around her neck and we learn atthat point too that the bar is
(14:19):
hers.
He leaves and then a Nazi showsup with some local muscle, asks
for the same thing.
She's like no, get out of mybar.
And then he threatens her witha hot poker from the fire and
she's like oh crap, this is muchbigger than I thought.
(14:43):
Then Indy comes back.
There's a really big fight.
The bar is burning.
Outside the bar, indy andMarion are talking and she says
you got yourself a goddamnpartner.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
And one of the Nazis had grabbed the.
You get to that.
Oh OK, sorry, I was going toget to that.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Ok.
So they go to Cairo.
They meet up with Indy's oldfriend, salah, who is Egyptian,
and Salah Indy says it's nowonder they hired you, you're
the best digger in the country,or something along those lines.
And Salah's like no, that's notit, they hired everybody.
So the conceit is that the Arkwas stolen by a pharaoh in a
(15:32):
siege of Jerusalem around 900,980, something like that BC, and
was taken back to the city ofTannis and stored in what is
called the Well of Souls.
To find the Well of Souls youneed to go to the map room and
hold the magic amulet the onethat we were just talking about,
at the right height on a staff,and the sun will show you where
(15:56):
the Well of Souls is.
So the Nazis are here in Tannis, they've discovered Tannis,
which apparently never wentmissing, and they're looking for
the map room.
Sorry, they have the map roomand they're looking for the Well
of Souls.
Salah says they have an amulet.
(16:18):
It looks just like that one,except it's a little rougher
around the edges and it's onlyone-sided, so that it turns out
is from as you say.
The Nazi tried to grab theamulet with his bare hand, but
it had been in the flames.
So he has a burn in the shapeof the amulet.
So he was able to read some ofthe notes around the edges.
(16:39):
Salah takes Indy and the amuletto an old man who will be able
to read it.
It says the staff needs to behowever many cubits high except
it wasn't cubits, it was adifferent measure.
But the other side of theamulet says minus one in
deference to the god of the Arkof the Covenant.
(17:01):
So Salah and Indy realizethey're digging in the wrong
place.
The Nazis are digging in thewrong place, led by Rene Belak,
the guy who stole the idol backin Peru.
So surreptitiously not thatdiscreetly, honestly Not
discreet at all but somehowunnoticed, at least temporarily
(17:24):
unnoticed Indy slips into adomed map room, which domes not
exactly typical of Egyptianarchitecture, but whatever and
magic ensues as Indy finds thecorrect spot for the well of
(17:45):
souls.
Meanwhile there was a wholeaction scene where Marion was
kidnapped and Indy thinks she'sdead.
He thinks she has beendestroyed in a big truck
explosion.
He thinks she's been killed ina truck explosion.
As Indy's escaping with theknowledge of where the well of
souls is, he ducks into a tentto avoid discovery and there she
(18:08):
is tied up and gagged.
He takes the gag off.
He's going to get her out.
She's like get me out of here.
And he says wait, I can't,because then they'll know we're
here and they'll find us.
So he puts the gag back on herand leaves.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Because she's just a sack of laundry.
That's going to slow him down.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
So then, undercover of darkness, Indy and Sala and a
number of other men find thewell of souls.
They find it, they open it up,they look down and Sala's like
why is the floor moving?
Speaker 3 (18:48):
It's full of snakes, Of course it is, and that's the
one thing Indy hates is snakes.
Why wouldn't it be?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Right In our very first credentialing scene, we
saw him be completely unfazed bydead bodies, by spiders, by
poisoned arts, by things falling.
He's completely unfazed.
But then there's pet snake thatfreaks him out and he lets us
know he hates snakes.
Ok, so the floor of this wellof souls is completely covered
(19:15):
by I guess it's meant to beEgyptian asps.
I mean Sala even says that verydangerous which is a form of
cobra.
But there are all differentkinds of snakes in what we
actually see.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Well, it also doesn't make any biological sense, Like
what are they eating?
Speaker 1 (19:29):
What are they eating Each other?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
And in which case that's still not natural.
And how are they all down thereand I mean it does become they
find a way out later.
So OK, this is not still, butstill Anyway.
It's the desert and I don'treally know a whole lot about
snake biology, but it doesn'treally make sense.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, anyway, indy manages, he finds the Ark.
It's in this big stonesarcophagus.
Sala and he just the two ofthem lift a giant stone slab and
then break it.
Yeah, they get the Ark out.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
No, what an archaeologist would do.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Oh my gosh no, oh my gosh, no.
And then bring it back to wherethey had come down.
They send it, he sends it up,and then Sala goes up.
But meanwhile Belak and theNazis have discovered the folks
at the top of the hole wherethey had dropped down into it
because Tannis has been buried.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
I do want to say one thing Belak is employed by Nazis
, so he is also a Nazi.
In the same way that if there'sa table of 10 people and 10 of
them are Nazis, or nine of themare Nazis, and one person is
sitting there eating with themand perfectly happy to be eating
with them, there's 10 Nazis atthat table.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah, if the person knows they're all Nazis, yes,
and Belak knows they're Nazis.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
He knows where the money's coming from.
Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
OK.
So while Indy was destroyingancient stuff and getting the
Ark out of its resting spot,marion was doing what she could
to save herself.
So Belak the pervert gives hera dress.
She's dressed.
(21:26):
I mean, her clothes are kind ofdisheveled and ripped from the
whole kidnapping thing, but shehad been wearing like a gauzy
sort of a blouse, like a cottonblouse, and trousers like red
trousers.
So he hands her a dress andpeep-toe heels and then watches
(21:47):
in the mirror.
He turns around while shechanges, but he watches her in
the mirror as she takes off herbra, because the dress is not
really conducive to a bra,because it's got an open back.
And then she sits with him andstarts and asks if he has
anything to drink.
So she starts clearly liketrying to out-drink him, like we
(22:07):
saw when she was credentialed,and flirting with him.
I mean she's using that tool ather disposal.
And just as she realizes shecan't out-drink him because this
is his family's label, like he,grew up drinking this stuff.
But she grabs a knife and hejust kind of giggles and she's
(22:29):
starting to leave actually.
But then the other Nazis comein.
Now the two stories cometogether.
Belak says how appropriate thatyou would die and become a part
of this archaeological thing.
And then the other Nazis arelike yeah, and the girl too,
because we don't need her, eventhough Belak wants to keep her
for himself.
So she gets tossed in.
(22:50):
Well, she's a very pretty pileof laundry, yeah.
So she gets tossed in andmanages to fall gently enough
eventually on Indy that shedoesn't get hurt.
Now they're stuck in this space, but Indy manages to topple a
giant statue into a wall when henotices snakes coming through
(23:12):
it and they find their way out.
They destroy a plane and acouple of Nazis and then the ark
gets loaded onto a truck.
There's a high speed chase withlots of Nazis hanging on the
outside of trucks and Indygetting shot and punched and
dragging underneath of a truckand then hiding the truck in
(23:38):
like a square.
So Indy now has possession ofthe Ark.
He's reunited with Marion.
They loaded on a ship captainedby a guy who saw Linos, who
vows to protect them.
The Nazis find them on the highseas.
They take Marion, though thecaptain tries to protect her but
(24:04):
he's unable.
So they take Marion.
Indy swims over to thesubmarine and rides it.
I guess While it is in the holdof the ship, the crate holding
the Ark, like the Nazi symbol onthe outside, gets burned off.
(24:29):
That actually is our firstindication that there is In fact
.
It's not just what Indy hassaid before, it's not just mumbo
jumbo.
There's something genuinelysupernatural about this thing.
They take it to an island whereBelak wants to do a some sort
of ritual and open it so theycan see if the tablets are
(24:52):
inside.
They believe the Nazis andBelak, I suppose, believe that
there is weaponizable power inthe fragments of the original
tablets which are meant to beinside the Ark.
So after a bit of a standoffand some chasing where the Nazis
(25:13):
win more or less in thestandoff, indian Marion are tied
together to a post back to back.
Belak is wearing anapproximation of the vestments
of a high priest as described inthe Torah.
The Ark is like at like a highpoint, with a whole, whole bunch
of Nazis in uniform and two ofthe like sort of higher up Nazis
(25:37):
who we've seen before aroundthem.
He does some sort of ritual.
He's speaking Aramaic, I think.
I didn't go to like figure itout.
It did not sound right.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
To me yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
I mean, for one thing it didn't end with amen, amen
or Amin, but whatever Anyway.
So after he does this, thenthey open it up and there's just
sand inside and they're likevery disappointed.
But then like starts to be likelightning and thunder and Indy
(26:14):
says, marion, close your eyes,don't look, don't look, no
matter what happens.
And then we watch as these likeghouly, kind of like like
apparitions, like ghosty lookingclouds, but then they have
human faces kind of come out andthe Nazis are like oh, it's
beautiful, and bellox like superexcited, but then it turns ugly
and they are like skull facesand lightning like hits bellox
(26:39):
and then shoots out to a bunchof Nazis and then the top Nazis
faces melt what you remember?
And then everything, everythinggets sucked back up into the
Ark and the lid gets put back onit.
Marion and Indy open their eyestheir bonds have been destroyed
and like yay, they won.
(27:00):
Final, final scene in theoriginal Army guys who first
told us about this the Naziswere looking for it are back
with Indy and his friend whosename I totally don't remember,
doesn't matter Talking aboutwhat happened to the Ark and how
it needs to be studied.
And the Army guys are like, yes, and we have our top men
(27:22):
working on it.
And Indy's like who?
Because you know, I guess it'sa small enough industry that he
knows all the top men.
And the guy goes top men.
And then we see, oh, and thenthere's the scene that you
remember.
He comes out and he's sofrustrated and because they
don't know what they have, butMarion knows what she has, so
(27:43):
they're going to go get a drink.
And then the very, very finalscene we see the Ark being put
into a crate, a wooden crate,with like property of US top
secret, us something or other onthe side, and being wheeled
into a ginormous warehouse ofsimilar crates.
And that's the end.
(28:05):
So I know that wasn't concise.
I'm sorry, I'm really bad atconcise summaries of what we
were watching.
There's just so much good stuff.
So let me start, let me startwith gender in this movie,
because that's where we so oftenstart.
So get it out of the way.
Nope, doesn't pass back to noteven close.
(28:26):
Is there another woman otherthan the love you girl?
There are other, like Salah's.
I don't know if it's Salah'swife, but there is a woman when
he meets Salah who's servingwine, which, also in Egypt,
feels weird.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Really I think so, because there are.
There are Christians in Egypt,the copped COPT copped Store.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Yes, anyway, doesn't matter.
But yeah.
Ok, so there are, like we do,and in fact there's a lot of
children, children, save Indyfrom Belak at one point, by just
just by being around him.
So because they know that thebad guys won't hurt kids.
There seem to be some girlsamong among that group of kids.
(29:09):
None of them have names.
Marion is the only named womanand she does not speak to any
other women, so it doesn't evencome close to passing back to
that said, marion is prettyfrigging awesome, and not in a
like I mean a little bit in anot like other girls way,
(29:30):
because, like, she can drinkthat person under the table, but
not in a perfect sort of way.
Yeah, which I think is really, Ifind really refreshing.
She also is not, though shedoes need saving, or she
actually.
Let me rephrase that, thoughshe is saved a few times, she
also does some saving, and shecertainly does not wait around
(29:52):
for the saving, like from thevery beginning we see her, you
know, from that first fightscene with the Nazis.
we see her fighting back andfighting back hard, which I
deeply appreciate, you know,especially thinking about, like
Princess Buttercup ourconversation about Buttercup,
for instance where like,couldn't you had her?
Like grab a stick and bash theROUS.
(30:13):
Marion grabs the stick andbashes the Nazis and has a gun
and shoot someone who's about toshoot India.
At one point she hits peoplewith torches and with frying
pans.
Like this woman is not a bottleof alcohol too, doesn't she?
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Well?
Speaker 1 (30:32):
she hands a bottle of whiskey to Indy, who uses it?
Gotcha, ok, ok.
So that's pretty awesome.
She is not a shrinking violet.
I think it's also significantthat the movie makers chose to
make the bar hers.
She wasn't just working there,it was her bar.
When she tells Indy she'scoming with him, she doesn't
(30:55):
just say I'm coming with you,she says I'm your goddamn
partner, right?
So I think there are thingsabout Marion that are flippin'
awesome.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
Yeah, especially 1936 .
That's when it's set yes, thatit's set in 1936, that she is,
and that's like I don't thinkthat that is not to say unusual.
I'm thinking of movies fromlike the 30s and 40s with, like
Catherine Hepburn and like, yeah, that there's.
There's that kind of core oflike don't fuck with me that you
(31:30):
get from, from heroines fromthat time period, and I feel
like she fits in nicely there in, but in a way that is also
reasonable for 1981.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Yeah, yeah, I also like that.
She is a sexual creature, right, she uses her sexuality against
Balak and then in one moment ofcaregiving, when they're on the
boat, indy is totally torn upfrom his like High speed,
everything, fight with the Nazis, and she's trying to help tend
(32:02):
his wounds and he like keepsflinching away because it hurts.
So finally she's like damn itwhat doesn't hurt.
And like he points to his elbowwhen he points to his spot on
his forehead and he points to apoint, point in a jaw, and then
he points to his lips and theystart kissing and she's
disappointed that he fallsasleep, like she clearly is
disappointed.
So I like that about her.
(32:22):
That feels like empowering andsubversive.
You know that it's not, thoughhe does point to his lips in
that moment.
It's an invitation that shetakes up.
It's not, it's not forced onher, it's not, she's not
reluctant.
There's something empoweringabout Mary and sexuality in this
(32:46):
movie.
Okay, now we've talked aboutfemale gender or presentation of
female gender in this movie.
I really want to talk aboutmasculinity in this movie
because Ford, indiana Jones, asplayed by Harrison Ford, is like
hyper masculine.
In some ways he is invincible.
(33:08):
I mean they had to give him anAchilles heel and so it snakes.
But it's almost like her laughsbecause he is unstoppable.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Well, and the thing that he doesn't like is other
people's penises.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
I mean like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
I mean it snakes that he has a problem with not
spiders, right you know, becausethere's right, right.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
And if he doesn't flinch at all from the, they're
like giant tarantulas on him andon his companion in the in the
very first scene, and he doesn'tflinch at all.
He just doesn't bother with hiswith his whip.
He does use a whip as his weaponof choice or tool of choice,
because he doesn't just he use,he does use his weapon, but it's
not his only weapon and it isappreciated Like we see the love
(33:59):
you girl right, like he is justdashing and there's something
incomplete about that.
I mean so much so that, like,despite what I just said about
marrying sexuality, there'ssomething like I don't know,
(34:22):
that just doesn't Hang togetherfor me.
Mm, hmm, about.
His sexuality.
I mean, he clearly has ahistory with Marion and there's
meant to be a thing there, mmhmm.
But I almost don't believe it,maybe because he leaves her
there and puts the gag back onher.
(34:43):
I mean, I was thinking about itafter watching out.
The movie does not at any pointsuggest explicitly that Marion
suffers sexual assault.
It does not suggest that, butit does suggest she was going to
be tortured by the same guy whothreatened her with the hot
(35:05):
poker, mm hmm.
And in the ass to have knownthat that was a possibility.
And he put the gag back on her.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Well, when he puts the gag back on her.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
she's still wearing the Blowshine.
She's still wearing the righttrousers.
Ok, gotcha.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
Yeah, but they're torn up, yeah, yeah.
The sleeves are torn in things,something that I know about the
making of this movie, the scenewhere Indy's friend from the
university his name, wita can'tremember comes to his house and
he starts packing yeah, indy'sin a bathrobe.
Yeah, indy's in a bathrobe.
(35:45):
Yeah, that was.
There was an extended scene andhe had a woman there that ended
up getting cut.
So this like idea of him beinglike a rockstar archaeologist
with groupies you know is, issomething they really wanted to.
And they show him being likedisconcerted a little bit by the
(36:05):
, the Love you girl.
Yeah, but that seems more likejust context rather than like
this is the wrong context forthis.
Like talk to me in my office.
And then the other thing that Iknow about the making of this
and I believe it was GeorgeLucas, which, because George
Lucas, was involved in makingthis as well, he was one of the
producers.
(36:26):
Wanted the backstory betweenMary and Indy, that she was a
literal child, as in like 13 or14.
And so she's like 23 or 24 now.
Ew, yes, ew.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Yes, it's been 10 years, and watching it, I
imagine like she was like 22 andnow she's 32.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Yeah, and that's what they ended up doing.
But Lucas originally was justlike.
I just think it would be reallyinteresting if she were, I mean
, maybe as old as 15, but andit's just like, ew, yeah.
Now, where I find this is veryinteresting is I know that
George Lucas and StevenSpielberg were inspired by the
(37:11):
novels of writer Haggard.
He was a like the most popularnovelist in the world in like
late 1800s, early, early 20thcentury.
The two most famous novels wereKing Solomon's, mines and she.
I've read them both.
When I was in college, I did aindependent study on literature
of British imperialism andHaggard was someone that I
(37:31):
studied.
It's been years, like more than20 years, so I don't remember
details.
She is about a woman who issomething supernatural.
She's thousands upon thousandsof years old.
She is short for she, who mustnot be named.
I don't remember what heractual name was and there is a
point where whatever the magicis that keeps her looking
(37:54):
youthful goes away and she ageslike a thousand years in a
moment and like really goes intodetail about how she becomes
like this monkey looking thingbefore she ultimately dies.
Writer Haggard had a realproblem with women and the fact
(38:16):
that a woman would want toretain youth and beauty is both
considered like, like how dareshe try to grab that power?
But also how dare women age?
And so like there's so much inthere.
And then the fact that GeorgeLucas had this like, oh yeah,
really young, I think theyreally interesting.
And so like the fact that thelike youth of Marion was what
(38:44):
was so fascinating to thefilmmaker.
And even with that, like KarenAllen is younger than Harrison
Ford Not by that much, I mean,it would have been like, I think
even like she could have beenlike 19 or 20 when he was like
28 or 29.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Yeah, that's actually what I sort of expect If he was
like a graduate student of herfather.
So she's like 20 and he's like26.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
And I don't know age and appropriate.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Yeah, I haven't looked it up.
Speaker 3 (39:13):
I don't know what the actual difference is, but I
think it's about 10 or 12 yearsbetween Harrison.
Ford and Karen Allen.
Yeah, Actually let me look it upHarrison Ford 1942, Karen Allen
1951.
There's a nine year differencebetween them, so like a 28 year
old with a 19 year old, sothat's pretty big that's that's
(39:33):
I would be if I had a 19 yearold child.
I would be concerned Very andwould lead to the the
dissolution of a relationshipwith the, the.
So that makes sense.
Yeah, but it also like that atleast is the same thing, that at
least is.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
It's not reasonable.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Yeah yeah, that is too adult, able to consent.
Yeah, yeah.
So anyway, I think that that isvery interesting, that there is
this like obsession with youthand beauty, and that's part of
like Bellach's obsession withMarion is her beauty.
He doesn't actually know her asa person, like he talks about
(40:13):
liking how feisty she is, butit's like, but it's still a
challenge to be conquered.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Yeah, yes, yeah, yes.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
And similar to everything that they're doing
with the archaeology, is achallenge to be conquered.
Yeah, it is not actually aboutknowledge.
It's not actually about betterunderstanding history and where
human beings came from, and likewhat was important to the two
are our distant ancestors or thedistant ancestors of people in
other places.
Like the fact that they open inSouth America and they don't
(40:47):
specify where, as if all ofSouth America is the same.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah, Well, and even I mean even the interest in the
in the arc is about thepotential weaponization of it.
Yes, at least from the Nazis,but yes, but let's.
Let's get into that, thoughlet's actually talk about that,
because you brought in Britishimperialism by bringing in
writer Haggard.
So let's talk about imperialismand some of the like underlying
ideologies here, because Ithink that's relevant to the, to
(41:13):
the archaeology question, mm.
Hmm, I don't think it's in thismovie, but Indiana Jones is
famous for saying that belongsin a museum, right.
Even that sentiment, which heholds passionately, is
imperialism, the white saviorism.
It's, it's and it's white, it'swhite supremacy and it's
(41:34):
European supremacy.
Like no, that belongs with thepeople to whom it has meaning,
mm hmm, and the even the waythat it's treated.
So Jones says early on I don'tbelieve in that mumbo jumbo.
Right so, and the movie makersfollow us right like that golden
(41:55):
idol, that the Hovita's revereis just a hunk of gold, mm, hmm,
the Ark of the Covenant fromJewish and therefore Christian.
Mm, hmm.
Folklore that's the word thatIndige uses in his classroom.
That has real power, thatshit's real.
That connects us to God, yeah,and so, like, like.
(42:18):
Baked in to the cosmology ofthe metaphysics under
underlining this movie, isEuropean supremacy.
Mm, hmm.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Well, and when we talked a little bit before we
started recording, alfred Molinoplays Sopito, who is the last
of Indy's guides.
At the very beginning, alfredMolino is a British actor.
I looked him up and realizedhis father was Italian, his
mother was Spanish, or viceversa might be mother was
Italian, father was Spanish, buthe was born in England.
(42:50):
So he is playing a Peruvian, orI mean Unspecified South.
American.
South American with an accentwhich, considering the fact that
one of his parents was a nativeSpanish speaker, made me feel a
little bit better about that,but it's still not the same,
yeah.
And then Jonathan Rhys Davies,who plays Sala, and I have to
(43:13):
say I have a great deal ofaffection for that actor.
He also played Gimli the dwarfin the Lord of the Rings trilogy
.
He is a Welsh actor who has agorgeous voice.
He is a white Welshman playingin Egyptian and it's a similar
sort of thing like, oh, if it'sa speaking role, we got to give
(43:34):
a white guy that job.
Yeah, and there's, it's asimilar sort of supremacy.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Yeah, like, baked into the sort of meta piece of
it in terms of the castingchoices, there's also the moment
, from the very beginning.
Well, first of all, like Indy'slike completely disturbing this
indigenous space, the holyspace, without any kind of
consent from, from thedescendants of those who put it
(44:00):
there, okay, okay, just to graba piece of gold.
Yeah, yeah, the descendants ofthose who put it there.
And they are under the I don'teven know what to say it like
it's not just employee, becausethe influence like Belak, this
(44:21):
white Frenchman, has theirloyalty and controls them,
because he can speak theirlanguage, like the visual of the
symbolism of these natives, andI'm using that word
intentionally, because the moviemakers give us these indigenous
(44:44):
people as savages, mostly naked, shooting poison darts, like it
is just playing on all kinds ofstereotypes, european
stereotypes of savages, like I'musing that word intentionally.
That's what they are giving usunder the control of this white
(45:08):
Frenchman.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
Now I do want to say I like the fact that Belak took
the time to learn the languageand speak to them Like I've.
In some ways it's gross thatthe movie then says like okay,
and so now you know he has theirloyalty.
But the thing is that is whatyou should be doing.
You should be learning that.
(45:30):
Oh, of course I'm notsuggesting that like, yeah, but
that to me and like, and this Imight be putting too much on
this, but my other major incollege was French literature
and there was a joke was likewhat do you call someone who
speaks three languagestri-lingual, someone who speaks
two languages bilingual, someonewho speaks one language,
american, yeah, and so there isa sense there that, like Indy is
(45:52):
very much first asked questionslater very American.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Yes, all of those things.
And even with that, theimplication for us, the viewer,
from the movie makers is thatBelak is somehow savvy and
sneaky Not that he's like, andhe certainly is not doing the
Jovitas any favors In fact theconversation in English between
him and Indy.
(46:17):
Indy says they don't, theJovitas don't know you like I do
.
And he says Belak says well,you could warn them if you spoke
Jovitas.
And then he says something inJovitas to them, so like yes,
and that's not what the moviemakers are giving us.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
No, no, it's interesting because what it
shows us because Belak is theone who insists on doing the
ritual at the end ends in theNazis deaths, and his own and
his own, yes, and it feels likethere's this comparison with
(46:58):
Indy, because he, like, immerseshimself more and it gets into a
sticky end and Indy keepshimself above, like he doesn't
learn Jovitas, he doesn'tactually believe in the stuff
until because he never wouldhave opened the arc, he just
would have taken it to study itor whatever, and so, like he
(47:19):
wins.
In the end Belak loses and it'sjust, it's very bizarre.
I also I do want to talk aboutthe arc of Indy's like character
arc, because he's I don'tbelieve in that mumbo jumbo, but
he's right enough about it toknow that if he closes his eyes
(47:40):
he'll survive, and when thechips fall he's like all right,
I'm just going to believe themumbo jumbo.
I've read, and so it would bereally interesting because it's
now a franchise.
Now, I've only seen the firstthree.
I've not seen the tworelatively recent ones.
The next one was a prequel, sookay, but then, oh, what's the
(48:04):
one with Sean Connery?
What is that one?
You know which one?
I mean?
The last crusade, the lastcrusade.
Okay, so in the last crusade hehas gone back to I don't
believe that mumbo jumbo and solike there is an interesting
character arc there where it'slike he actually has proof it
(48:24):
happened in front of him.
Now he didn't see it, but Nazisall died and he had to have
heard what was going on.
And then he goes right back tolike no, I'm a rational man, I'm
a rational man of science, andit's like what is that saying to
us?
Like, what is that saying aboutmasculinity?
What is that saying about?
Speaker 1 (48:45):
I think those are good questions and I wanna add
additional questions to itbecause I think part of
bellach's downfall is hubris.
I mean, he is dressed in thevestments of the high priest, or
some approximation of that asdescribed in the Torah.
But here's the thing.
So we're told by the guy whosename we don't know that the arc
(49:09):
could level mountains, that theBible says the arc could level
mountains.
The Bible says no such thing.
The arc is in fact, powerful,but not like that.
So the one that always sticks inmy head because it's always
bothered me there's a storywhere King David is bringing the
arc into Jerusalem, becausewe've had this for a while, like
in the Tabernacle, when thepeople were traveling in the
(49:31):
wilderness.
We're building Jerusalem.
King David is bringing the arc,he's super excited about the
arc, he's dancing in front of itand it starts to slip on its
cart and poor Uzza just somedude who's walking behind it
like reaches out to study itcause the thing's gonna fall and
is instantly struck dead Causehe dared touch the thing without
(49:51):
being in the right state.
A non Jew, a non-cohein priestwho would deign to perform some
sort of ceremony with somethingas holy as the arc was gonna die
(50:13):
.
If the mumbo jumbo is real fromthe Bible, belak would have
known that, like even in thefictional world of Indiana Jones
.
And so there's something like,in addition to the questions
that you're asking about, likethis push pull of like
(50:36):
metaphysics as well but I onlybelieve in physics and reason
there's also this like keepingyour place sort of within the
holiness hierarchy, which ispart of like what closing your
eyes is.
Like no one can see my face andlive.
I mean, there's nothing thatsays you can't see the content.
(50:58):
Like that's not exact.
It's kind of like extrapolatedmaybe, like God does tell Moses
no one can see my face and live.
That's not what's happeningLike it's so it's made up.
Yeah, it's made up.
But even within sort of thealternate universe of Indiana
Jones, I do feel like there'ssome hubris in Belak believing
(51:23):
that he could do this, whichisn't the same sort of thing
Like he believes it because he'sbeen getting away with it.
He learned Jovitas and becamethe boss of the Jovitas, so of
course he can learn the whateverancient version of Hebrew and
be the boss of the art.
Indy knows better than thatMaybe.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
It's interesting just because it gets into.
It's based on historical factthat Hitler was interested in
occult objects.
I don't know if Hitler wasinterested in the Ark of the
Covenant or anything like thatfrom the history of Judaism.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
Well, they have the.
I mean in the movie.
They have one of the Nazis sayI'm uncomfortable with this
Jewish ritual.
Are you sure we need to do this?
That's how Belak condenses themto do it, as you noted, which
all of the Belak hadn't, andthen presumably the Ward of
Windemann over a lot faster.
Yeah, Because Hitler would have.
Speaker 3 (52:21):
Well, it was 1936, he would have yeah, there would
have been, we would have savedmillions of lives.
Millions of lives, yes, but theLike the thing is, you get this
like kind of weird tension aswell.
If Hitler is looking for andjust in the universe of Raiders
of the Lost Ark, hitler islooking for these legendary
(52:43):
weapons from the Torah andhistory, while wanting them to
destroy Jews, and it's like, whywould you think that would work
for you?
Speaker 1 (52:56):
Yeah, I mean that actually because of Christian
supremacy and and and supersupercessionism that actually
feels pretty much explainableLike yeah, supercessionism being
what it is like anything thatbelonged to Jews is now
Christian and the Jews no longerhave claim on it.
That's, that's just like the,you know the classic.
(53:17):
It's on that cathedral rightwhen the ecclesiastica has
defeated synagogue.
Like, oh gosh, I don't knowthat, wow, I'll link to it in
the show notes.
Like there's a cathedral inEurope with like a figure
they're both female, but she'slike holding a cross and she's
victorious.
And then there's another figurethat's meant to be synagogue,
(53:38):
the synagogue and it's.
She's holding a staff with astar of David and she's
blindfolded and broken.
And yeah, yeah, well, andactually doesn't feel hard to
answer, even in our universe.
Speaker 3 (53:52):
That's true.
I just kind of I think it'sworth highlighting the logic of
it, the hypocrisy of it,absolutely yeah, the hypocrisy
of it.
And then also the fact thatSteven Spielberg is Jewish yeah,
like, I think that like there'sa reason why it's right as the
lost Ark I mean, we got get tothe Holy Grail with last crusade
.
Speaker 1 (54:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (54:12):
But you know he starts with the Ark.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
Yeah, and there's definitely a comment that the
Nazi symbol gets burned off.
That I pointed out in my yes,yes, yes, absolutely.
I mean the Nazi space is burnedoff, melted off.
Speaker 3 (54:26):
Yeah, and that is such a useful symbol.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
Absolutely Well.
We've been recording for aminute.
I feel like there are otherthings that I could say about
this movie.
I mean, like, like the bodycount is really high.
I feel like some of the, evenin what we've been talking about
right now, I feel like there'sa bit of fetishization of
ancient people, includingIsraelites, and sort of the
(54:52):
ancient Jewish practice.
That is worth on packing, but Idon't have time to unpack right
now.
Speaker 3 (54:58):
So I do want to make one comment.
There's that famous scene wherethere's extended fight scene
and then there's a guy with agiant knife or sword and he's
doing all these things and Indyjust takes his gun and shoots
him in the head.
And it's very funny like thetiming and the reason behind it
is because Harrison Ford hadgotten like dysentery or
(55:19):
something like that.
Speaker 2 (55:20):
And so like I was having over, but yeah no, no, he
was sick.
Speaker 3 (55:24):
He was sick and so, like there was supposed to be an
extended sword fight scene andthey're like, ok, we'll cut it
and here's how we do it, but theeffect is more of this like
Western and white supremacy.
Yeah, it's like I have thebetter weapon.
Yeah, you have all thisflourish and it's meaningless in
(55:46):
the face of my better weaponry,which, like it's so well done
in terms of comedic timing, evenjust thinking about the fact
that it's a dead person and thereason for it.
It gets into what I love aboutlike storytelling and stuff.
Like that is like you know,sometimes you got a swerve
(56:06):
because of like an actor is sickand you end up making this
iconic moment, but then it'slike what is it telling us?
Speaker 1 (56:13):
Yeah, this iconic moment.
What lessons is it imparting?
What?
Speaker 3 (56:15):
lessons are we learning, and it's not pretty.
Speaker 1 (56:18):
Yeah, yeah, I feel like I'm going to have a hard
time like summing up, but I willtry.
I will try.
So gender we do not pass thebackdale test and Marianne has
greater agency and more power,in both traditionally feminine,
coded ways through her sexuality, and in traditionally male
(56:41):
coded ways through, likephysically hitting people
through out drinking people.
Masculinity as performed inthis movie is over the top,
perfect, macho, unflinching.
The colonialism slashimperialism, slash white
supremacy slash Europeansupremacy in this movie is both
(57:06):
overt and covert, which is whichis interesting, it really is.
It really is.
It's both baked into themetaphysics of what happens in
this movie and also justoutwardly performed over and,
over and over again.
It's also like a reallypowerful example of this medium
(57:29):
in terms of the ways that it isable to move the viewer through
the score, through the action,like through kind of the, the
build, the shadows.
Speaker 3 (57:39):
Like the way they use shadows as amazing.
Speaker 1 (57:42):
The crescendo of stakes like what is at stake,
even by setting it with Nazis asthe bad guys, kind of raised
the stakes on this weird sort ofmystery goose hunt Adventure
tale.
Yeah, yeah, let me see whatelse.
Speaker 3 (57:58):
The idea of hubris yeah, and how that I mean,
because that's even part of whatIndy has a problem with at the
end is like you need peoplestudying this and they're like,
oh, we've got it, even thoughthey're doing nothing.
And the hubris of like that youcan keep it contained by
putting it in obscurity.
(58:19):
Like that.
There's a lot of menace to theend of this film.
Speaker 1 (58:23):
Yeah, oh.
The other thing is sort of thelike basic fact checking, which
I think others have done really,really well.
I'll link to this, yeah, thearchaeologists.
I'll link to another thing thatI read Like there's, there's a
kernel of truth to the idea ofthe Ark of the Tablets, the Ark
of the Covenant there was.
There is described a thing suchas this it did not go missing
(58:47):
when an Egyptian, pharaoh thatPharaoh did in fact exist and
did sack Jerusalem, but evidenceseems to suggest the Ark was
still in Jerusalem until theBabylonians destroyed the first
temple in 587 BC, so another 400years after.
Indiana Jones claims that itwas taken to.
And it was taken to Tannis,which was the capital of the
(59:10):
Egyptian kingdom, and did getabandoned because of shifting
the shifting nature of the Nile.
It was not a year longsandstorm and even like sort of
what the Ark is purported to becapable of.
Like there's there's someserious fact checking that needs
to happen, or we just need toaccept that we're in an
(59:31):
alternate universe.
Speaker 3 (59:32):
Yeah, just fine.
Speaker 1 (59:34):
So it's streaming on Disney Plus now, apparently,
disney has gotten the rights tothe Indiana Jones franchise.
I think it's worth revisiting.
It's a fun thing to watch, witha huge grain of salt and an
analysis of sort of what it isthat we're watching.
(59:56):
Yeah, did I forget anything?
Anything you want to add beforewe turn our attention?
Speaker 3 (01:00:03):
No, no.
I think that's a pretty goodbreakdown of what we talked
about.
Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
Cool.
So next week I think you'rebringing me some deep thoughts.
Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
Yes, I am going to bring my deep thoughts about
Clueless, the 1995 film withAlicia Silverstone that I was a
little obsessed with in highschool.
Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Awesome, can't wait, so I'll see you then.
See you then.
Hey you, yeah you.
You're a deep thinker, I cantell.
Let's make it official.
Head on over to our website,guygirlsmediacom, and make sure
you don't miss a single deepthought.
You can get me and Emily inyour inbox every week.
(01:00:43):
What are you waiting for?
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember, popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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