March 26, 2024 • 53 mins
It smells like the funk of 40,000 years in here!
In today’s episode,Tracie shares her deep thoughts about the iconic and groundbreaking 1983 music video for Michael Jackson’s Thriller. From the way the mini film subverts expectations to the meaning behind the horror tropes it relies on to how to contextualize Jackson’s immense talent with the troubled and abusive life he led, the Guy girls explore what it means that a novelty song featuring a zombie flash mob and Vincent Price saying “y’all’s” helped make MJ king of the world.
Throw on your headphones and listen…before darkness falls across the land!
TW: Oblique references to the allegations against Michael Jackson and the childhood abuse he endured.
Mentioned in this episode:
Our TikTok about Horror
Deep Thoughts about Clue
Inflation Calculator
The full Thriller video
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Tracy Guy-Dekker and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts about Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
Today I'll be sharing my deepthoughts about the 1983 music
video Thriller by MichaelJackson with my sister, emily
Guy-Burkin, and with you.
Let's dive in.
(00:21):
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
just pop culture?
Others might deem stupid shit.
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come over, think with us aswe delve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
All right, em, I know youremember this.
(00:42):
I remember watching it with youin 1983 when it was released.
It was like a thing we all hadto be home so we could watch
this thing.
I very clearly remember Dad'sapartment in Carriage Hill, like
, and he was excited to watch it.
So I know you've seen it.
What do you remember?
(01:02):
What's in your head aboutMichael Jackson's Thriller?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
So there's a couple things from the time.
I remember being frightened ofthe music video In 1983, I would
have been four and of all thethings that scared me, what
scared me the most was that lastshot of my Michael Jackson
looking at the camera with theyellow eyes.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
I think Yellow yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
And like that because and it's interesting because
I'm still like this I can handlealmost anything in fiction if
it is backstory or prologue orif it's clear it's not really
happening, so like if it's adream.
But when it's like actualdanger Now I'm not four anymore,
(01:51):
so like actual danger doesn'tscare me like it does.
But there are things likechildren in danger, like certain
types of gendered violence.
If it's in backstory I'm finebecause I know that the
character got through it and isokay now.
But once you put it into likethe current moment of the story,
(02:12):
it scares me.
And I find it interesting thateven as a four year old, that
was the thing that like was likeoh no, even though, like, the
makeup of the zombies wasamazing and you know other
aspects of it that were trulyfrightening.
I remember that from childhood.
(02:32):
I have always loved VincentPrice's monologue at the
beginning.
Darkness falls across the land.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
It's actually in the middle.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
It's in the middle.
Oh, that's right.
Okay, yes, and that part inpart because Vincent Price's
voice is just magnetic.
It's perfect.
It is perfect for that.
When I was in college, myfreshman year of college my next
(03:03):
door neighbor, you know howdorm rooms you'd often have like
white erase board and someonehad written on.
One of the two roommates hadwritten on the white erase board
it smells like the funk of40,000 years in here.
And when I saw it I was likehow do I know that?
How do I know funk of 40,000years?
(03:24):
And like it took me a littlewhile to be like I'm hearing it
in somebody's voice.
Whose voice am I?
Oh, vincent Price, oh, thriller.
It took me a little while toget around to, like how do I
know that?
And you know, thriller is onethat's the video, is one that I
know I have gone back to.
(03:46):
You know I was a relativelyheavy MTV viewer in my early
teen years and so that was onewhere, like, if it would come on
like as a like throwbackbecause by then it was, you know
, 10 years old I would be likeoh, yeah, yeah, this is good,
let's watch it.
And I remember watching like amaking of video about it,
(04:06):
talking about how, even thoughthe woman playing his date is
seems to be like relativelypassive in terms of like,
choreography and stuff like that.
They were talking about how shehad to walk on the beat and she
was a dancer and then needed tohave like, and I remember that
being really interesting andimpressive to me because it just
(04:30):
had never occurred to me.
So so those are the things thatI can remember about Thriller.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout this today?
What's, what's, what's going onfor you?
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Well, for our project , we've been brainstorming about
pieces of media that have beeninfluential for us, and so
that's actually what got methinking about Thriller.
I remember that moment with dadwhere it was like we got to be
home so we can watch this thingbe, you know, be broadcast, and
thinking about how important itis.
(05:03):
And I was seven when it wasreleased and it's just been
there as it's like.
I don't remember a time whenthere wasn't a Thriller video,
you know.
And so, as a part of ourproject, I wanted to kind of
look and see, like, what is thefurniture of my brain that
Thriller is responsible for andhow do I feel about that
(05:27):
furniture?
So some of the things that I'dlike to get into with you are I
want to talk about the well, theinfluence that it's had,
because it really has beendeeply influential.
I want to talk about the.
I want to break down the actualstorytelling in this little
short film that Michael Jacksonmade and the tropes that it
(05:53):
referenced and reified and someof the choices that were made.
I want to talk about how genderplays out in the story that we
get, or there's actually sort ofa couple of stories, because
there's stories within stories,even within this 13 minute,
almost 14 minute film.
I think we should probably talkabout and this is as good a
(06:17):
time as any to talk about thedilemma of art versus artist.
Now, michael Jackson is gone nowand, ooh, talk about a troubled
soul and hurt people, hurtpeople, and like we can wrestle
with that a little bit, I think,in a conversation about
(06:39):
Thriller.
It's also fascinating to me,like Jackson I was reading this
morning off the wall did well,won a Grammy, but like just won,
and Jackson was like I can dobetter.
He set out to like make ablockbuster and he did it.
(07:02):
And you know we point toThriller, we culturally point to
Thriller, sort of like changingthe landscape, and I'll talk
about that a little bit.
And also it didn't really takeoff for another couple of videos
until, like he did the moonwalkfor the first time, for
(07:23):
instance Not to say it wasn'tinfluential even in 83, but
there were additional factors.
So I think this is also anopportunity for us to talk about
celebrity and popularity andsort of what it takes to capture
the imagination of the publicand how Jackson was able to tap
into that.
Possibly I don't know that Ihave the answer, but I feel like
(07:46):
that's an interesting questionfor us to wrestle with.
So that's where I'd like to gowith this.
Before I get there, let mequickly give this synopsis, a
reminder of this music videowhich, by the way, listeners.
It's 13 minutes and 42 seconds.
If you haven't seen it lately,go find it on YouTube.
It's there.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
It's fun.
We can keep it to late.
Yeah, I'll link to it.
Yeah, in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Good call.
I'll link to it in the shownotes.
So the video begins blackscreen, white letters.
Disclaimer from Jackson himself.
Due to my strong personalconvictions, I wish to stress
that this film in no wayendorses a belief in the occult,
which apparently was.
Jackson was raised Jehovah'sWitness and there were those in
(08:31):
the church who were not so happyabout this idea and this was
like a compromise, so that hewouldn't be ostracized or I
don't know if they doexcommunication or what, but
somehow this was a wow,disavowing the potentially
anti-Christian pieces of thisfilm that we're about to watch,
(08:52):
which I did not remember at all.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, one other piece of context, and like 83, I'm
not sure exactly when, this wasin the 80s, but there was like
hysteria about occult practicesin the 80s and there were the
day cares that were like shutdown because people thought that
they were sacrificing babiesLike I swear to God, this is
(09:16):
real and like ruined lives, andit was partially because of
things like repressed memoriesand stuff like that.
It was mostly what it was iskids are suggestible and so like
.
So did you see, you know, missNancy dancing around a fire
naked?
Yes, so like it's.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
I don't think that's what this, I mean this, was.
I think that's this predatesthat, because this was released
December of 83.
So they were working on it, youknow anyway.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Anyway that that that was part of the culture of the
1980s.
So Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
So we get this disclaimer and then we're
looking at like a 1950s car, aconvertible kind of, from a
distance.
It's nighttime, they're driving, the engine makes a weird sound
and then it pulls to a stop.
Michael Jackson is dressed.
Michael Jackson ended date.
It's Ola Ray is the actress'sname are dressed 1950s teenager
(10:19):
style.
So he's wearing a Lettermanjacket with an am on it.
He's wearing, you know, likeBobby socks or poodle skirt and
sweater deal.
And he says no, really, we ranout of gas.
And she says what are we goingto do now?
So the next thing we seethey're walking and they have
(10:40):
this cute little exchange.
He says he really likes her.
He asked if she'll be his girl.
She says yes, they hug.
And then he says I'm not likeother boys.
And she says I know, that's whyI like you.
And then we see a cloud movefrom in front of the moon and he
turns into a werewolf and wesee all the transformation, like
(11:01):
the whiskers and the fingersget longer and the nails, like
the full thing.
And meanwhile Ola Ray is justlike big eyed, like freaking out
, staring, screaming, watching.
She runs, he catches her andthen it's really beautifully
seamless.
We cut to a movie theater whereMichael Jackson and Ola Ray are
(11:25):
watching this.
It's a movie.
So the werewolf got thegirlfriend, presumably in the
film.
Ola Ray is really scared.
Michael Jackson is like superenjoying it, like the whole
audience is like scary and likekind of cringing and whatever.
But he's just like not at allflinching, just eating the
(11:46):
popcorn, like smiling andexcited.
She says can we get out of here?
He says no, I'm enjoying this.
She says I can't watch.
She gets up and leaves.
He follows her.
We see them outside the theaterwhich is like a old timey, like
single, single cinema theater,like the senator here in
Baltimore, if anybody knows thatone and the signs on it have
Vincent Price's name and thename Thriller.
(12:07):
That's the movie that they werewatching.
They start walking.
He's teasing her but she'ssmiling.
This is the part where she'swalking on the beat and he's
kind of dancing around her.
Now he's singing.
He's singing the song.
They walk past a cemetery.
That's where Vincent Price'srap they call it a rap comes in
(12:31):
and we see like zombies comingup out of the graves, graves out
of like I don't know what it'scalled like a stone coffin.
We see like a hand like move thestone, like sarcophagus.
Yeah, yeah, I guess so.
Yeah.
So they keep walking andthey're just kind of bantering.
(12:54):
He's singing the song and thenhe stops suddenly and they're
surrounded by zombies.
They're freaking out both ofthem.
They end up back to back andthen the camera cuts to her and
her eyes get real big and shelooks around and realize and
then we, and it does that thingwhere like like a quick zoom out
so she gets like further away.
(13:15):
That shows like she's alone.
And we see Michael Jackson.
He's a zombie Cue, the thrillerdance which we all know and do
in flash mobs.
Now A little bit more singing,which this is interesting to me
in rewatch.
He doesn't sing in zombiemakeup, he dances in zombie
(13:36):
makeup, but he does not sing inzombie makeup, which is really
interesting to me.
She runs away into this creepyold Victorian abandoned house.
They're like busting throughthe doors.
He busts through the door,she's like cornered on a couch
and it's just sort of likeshaking, scared, and kind of
(13:57):
closes her eyes as he reachesout and then he grabs her
shoulder, she opens her eyes andit's just normal Michael like
not zombie Michael, and he'slike what's the matter?
Come on, I'll take you home.
And she smiles, she's relieved,she was dreaming, I guess.
And then they get up, he putshis arm around her.
They're sort of walking out ofthe room, which is not an
abandoned room, it's a lived inhouse.
(14:19):
He turns around, looks over hisshoulder at the camera and he's
got the yellow like crowly eyes, like the yellow contact lenses
that fill the entire visiblepart of his eye with the slits.
Those were the eyes of thewerewolf from the movie.
So there's like these.
(14:40):
It's these interesting layerswhere we had this film that
wasn't actually the MichaelJackson in the red motorcycle
jacket.
That's most of the video.
But then that final scenethat's scared for your old Emily
actually is a throwback to thatfilm.
So that's what happens in thisbrief film.
(15:05):
Seeing this as a mini movie wasnovel.
It was new and from what I readthis morning, that was actually
John Landis who is the directorof this little film.
That was his idea.
So Jackson reached out toLandis.
He wanted Landis to direct themusic video.
(15:28):
He knew Landis as the directorof American Werewolf in London.
He didn't know any of his otherfilms, so he didn't know the
other comedies that Landis haddone.
At that point he knew AmericanWerewolf in London.
That's why he wanted Landis.
Landis said I mean he was likethe pop star.
So Landis didn't want to say no, but he sort of said I don't
(15:50):
want to do it if it's not like amini movie.
So Jackson was like, yeah, cool.
So Jackson and Landis sharewriting credits for this and it
cost $900,000 to make in 1983,which, thanks to your handy
dandy inflation calculator, weknow is almost $2.8 billion in
(16:12):
today's dollars.
They had to come up with how topay for this thing.
So that's how that making ofvideo happened.
They pitched that as somethingthat then could be sold for
extra content, which Landisactually really scoffed at.
I mean, he did it because ithelped make the money, but
(16:35):
afterward he was very dismissiveof even the notion of the
making of.
So our dad and our experienceof being there to watch it the
first time it was broadcast weweren't the only ones, and
people love this thing so muchthat actually releasing the
(16:58):
video on VHS was part of whatdrove VHS like VCR not the
player, but tapes.
People wanted to be able towatch this thing when they
wanted to watch it, not when itwas being broadcast and the
making of video sold for like$29.99 in our fight and was
(17:23):
making a face, that would be if900,000 is 2.8 million I'm not
going to do the math, but that'slike 60 or 70 bucks today.
Yeah, and it's sold, so it's,and selling the rights to
(17:47):
broadcast it to Showtime and toMTV was part of how they raised
the capital to make this movie.
Jackson put in some of his ownmoney.
The record label put in somemoney Anyway no, I'm wrong.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
It would be like 90 bucks today.
Wow, yeah, for the making ofThorella, for the making of
video, wow, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
So that's huge, like when you think about the effect
on culture and the demand andthe hunger for this thing, like
that's really remarkable.
So I want to, like, I want totalk about this brief narrative
(18:32):
and like why did we love it somuch?
I don't mean we, you and me,sisters, like we, the American
public why did we?
Why do we still love it so much?
You know, I mean, I think inpart because and I wanna hear
you on your thoughts on thisbecause you've spent a lot more
time thinking about horror thanI have but in my mind, part of
(18:55):
what's appealing about thethriller video is the way that
it taps into the tropes ofhorror without being
particularly scary, so you cankind of like enjoy some of the
constructs of horror withoutneeding to have that
(19:21):
physiological response.
Which I actually believe thephysiological response is part
of why people like horror,because it allows them to give
sort of an emotional releasethat's not actually about their
own lives and sometimes youdon't have or want that, you
know.
While some of the other piecesof it are still entertaining,
(19:44):
you know, like the raising thestakes of the girlfriend's fear,
knowing that it's gonna be okay, and that's actually something
that you know in terms of gender, that maybe we can dig into
about horror in general andabout the tropes that this taps
(20:05):
into in particular, like why isit entertaining for us that this
young woman is terrified of herboyfriend?
Why is that entertaining?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
So there's a couple of things that that brings up to
me.
I had forgotten, like Iremembered, her poodle skirt
from the scene in the thewerewolf film.
I had forgotten the like.
No, really, we did run out ofgas, and as soon as you said
that, I was just like oh dear,because I know that that was
like something that men would doto get women to be under their
(20:44):
control, basically becausethey're in the middle of nowhere
in a car that apparently has nogas.
And so what do we do now?
And we see them.
Walking is actually asubversion of the expectation
Completely.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
they're not making out.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yeah, and so that right there, like what's
interesting about this video isthat it consistently subverts
expectations.
First in like, oh, they're notmaking out, he's not a predator,
or you know, it's not a sexualthing, but to me it would be
(21:21):
like a young man running out ofgas with a girl in the car is to
me a predatory thing.
So like you've got, oh, he'snot a predator.
And he tells her he reallylikes her and she really likes
him too and he's not like otherboys.
Oh, subvert that again.
He actually, because he's, heis a predator, literally,
(21:43):
Literally a predator.
Yeah.
And then she is very much indanger and is attacked and like
horrible things are happening toher.
Oh, subvert that again.
It's not really happening, it'sa film.
So you know, this is actually,you know, a modern date and you
know she doesn't like scarystuff.
So, all right, we're leavingand he teases her, but it's good
(22:05):
nature and all of that.
So, oh, subverted again.
There's zombies.
Okay, well, at least they'retogether.
Oh, subverted again.
So like it's this consistentsubversion over and over and
over again.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
You're exactly right.
And then subverted againbecause it's a music video and
they start friggin' dancing.
Yeah, synchronized.
Yeah, the zombies us is backupdancers.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Which, and actually even as a child, I remember
being like, and that is notscary.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Like, not even a little.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Got a bunch of people and like truly kind of I mean
well done makeup.
So, like you know, depending onyour level.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
And they're like, as they're like walking, you know
Romero style like limbs aredropping off.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yes, yes, so like truly frightening, like special
effects, I mean, or makeupeffects, which then turns into
what we now call a flash mob,yeah, and okay, not scary, so
that there's that subversion.
So I think all of that you'reright about.
(23:11):
Why we like horror is the samereason we like comedy and the
same reason we like rollercoasters.
It's a catharsis, right, andthe catharsis of horror.
I feel like comedy and horrorare two sides of the same coin,
in that both of them rely onsome element of surprise, some
element of unexpectedness.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Right, because humor doesn't work without that.
Yeah, yes, yes, humor subvertsyour expectation.
That's what makes it funny,like yes.
If you just said you know, twoguys walk into a bar and they
order two beers.
That's not funny, right,exactly.
You have to actually subvertsomething.
Yeah, yes.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
With you.
So, and horror some horror is asubversion of expectations.
Feminist horror in particularsubverts expectations and is
it's one of the waysmarginalized individuals can
really examine the expectationsplaced on themselves as a group?
(24:12):
Their identity, yes, but theway that horror works in terms
of like physiologically, whenyou're watching it is it gives
you a sense of fear andcatharsis that is, as you said,
not related to your own life andallows you distance.
(24:33):
Now you asked why do we likeseeing young women in peril?
And that is where it getsinteresting.
Because comedy, in every jokethere is some sort of kernel of
truth or belief.
Horror is similar in that wemake horror about the things
that scare us, and so in someways, what that's saying is what
(24:57):
scares us is women in trouble,children in trouble, vulnerable
people in trouble.
So there is that aspect of it,and we had a TikTok on Halloween
where we talked a little bitabout the zombies versus
vampires.
Short version is vampires arethe horror monsters that we see
(25:20):
in America, in our pop culturewhen Democrats are in office,
generally with the underdemocratic presidents, and
zombies are the ones that we seeunder Republican presidents, in
part because the cultural fearsunder Democrats is sexual
perversion, which is kind ofrepresented by vampires, and the
(25:43):
cultural fears when we areunder Republican presidents and
also in times of war.
Is becoming this mindlessfollower that is only going
after our id, so eating brains?
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I think something even, or another piece of it,
it's not.
I don't think it's just sexualperversion, it's like a draining
of resources.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Absolutely yes.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
And an unfair undo like sort of the sense that
you're going to take what'srightfully mine, that I think
the bloodsucking mechanism ofvampirism is why that comes up
and under more liberal, you know, we're all in this together,
(26:30):
kind of talking yes.
So like, yeah, the lemmings ofzombies, of zombieism, of undead
, they're both undead, which isinteresting.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, yeah.
So that's an interesting aspectof this too.
I mean, I think like so.
This was in 83 under Reagan.
He did zombies.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
If it had been 96 under Clinton.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Under Clinton.
It might have been vampires, itmight have been vampires
Because vampires.
What about?
Speaker 2 (26:56):
werewolves Decadence.
So that's interesting.
Werewolves are often coded aslike feminine in a way, because
their change is related to thecycles of the moon.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
So are they coded as, like my brain is telling me
that there's there might, therecould potentially be like racism
around it, like in some of thewildness.
Yeah, in particular, since it'sJackson which, you know, mtv
claims there was never, you know, a whitewashing or you know,
not showing black artists.
(27:32):
I'm not sure the data backsthat up.
Regardless, like, jackson wascrime time and black, and so,
like MTV, like, made a big deal,we all sat around our TVs for
this black artist who turnedinto a werewolf, you know, in
the first few moments of thevideo.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Well, even just look at Teen Wolf.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Michael J Fox.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Michael J Fox film when he is a werewolf.
He is better at basketball.
Sports Right Sports basketball,like you know, a better swimmer
.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Oh yeah, good call.
Yeah, you know.
It's interesting too that I'mjust I'm thinking this now as
we're talking.
He's not a predator, he's not asexual predator.
We were afraid he was going tobe a sexual predator in the very
first scene with the gasrunning out, and then he
transforms into a beast and heis very much a predator, chasing
(28:31):
this scared woman.
So there's a sexualhypersexualization abstraction
to the werewolf as well.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah, there's a lot in there.
I mean, these reflect our fears.
So there's, I mean, the fear ofthe other, the fear of savagery
, the fear of hypersexualization.
There's also the fear of lackof control, which is the
werewolf transformation youcan't control, and then that is
also coded along with women'smenstrual cycles.
(29:07):
What's interesting also becauseyou mentioned why is it that we
enjoy watching young women beterrorized?
Because there is that fear, butit is also prurient.
Yeah, so we live in amisogynistic culture and so we
like seeing women suffer, and sothere can be kind of a pasting
(29:33):
over of the like oh, I likewatching women suffer, but it's
about like I want to see thefinal girl, or like the virginal
girl survives because she's agood woman, and we can even make
it feminist, like oh, yeah,well, sydney Prescott survives,
(29:53):
scream because she's a badass,but all these other girls die in
horrible ways and are liketerrorized, and so we can have
our cake and eat it too, whereit's like yeah, this is like
we're kind of going throughthese actual fears that our
culture has about vulnerabilityof young women, but we can also
(30:16):
enjoy the prurient experience ofwatching them suffer and often
the prurient experience ofseeing their tits, because in a
lot of horror that's how youknow who the bad girls are, who
are going to die, and then alsosay but you know, good women
survive.
So it's all tangled up in there,the misogyny in classic horror,
(30:41):
which is part of the reason whyfeminist horror is so exciting
and so interesting.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
You know, I think that the actual lyrics of the
song underscore the point youjust made, right?
So, because the lyrics of thesong are all about how all these
terrible things are coming toget you and you can't escape
them, you can't escape thethriller, and I mean there are.
There's also a verse about howI'm going to protect you from
the terror on the screen.
(31:08):
So it's, you know, mirroringwhat's happening in the video.
That it's, it's about a horrormovie, it's not about real.
And also, just like you know,that final, final frame of
Jackson with the werewolf eyes,it's like it's not real and it's
(31:32):
real, there it's, it's there's.
There's an ambiguity even withinthe lyrics, which I am
overthinking, I will grant you.
I am totally overthinking.
I think this Jackson didn'twrite this and I believe that
the guy who wrote it, like itwas mostly a novelty song, and I
don't think I'm putting thingsthere that aren't there, right,
(31:55):
they may not have been intended,but I do think that there's
this, like even the you know, Icould love you, I could love you
more than any ghoul could everdare try Like there is a sexual
component of the relationshipbetween the singer, jackson, or
(32:15):
the persona that Jackson issinging and the you to whom he
is singing, that also says likeyou can't escape, and I think
that's you know, that's worthkind of noticing at least.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Something I find interesting like to conflate the
character that Jackson'splaying in Thriller and Michael
Jackson himself, in part becausehe lived an official his entire
life and so he was constantlyunder scrutiny and so everything
he did intentionally, you know,like not when he was like being
photographed out and about, butanything he did intentionally,
(32:51):
I believe there was thought putinto it.
So he was described as afeminine and like not a real man
, because that's how we talkedabout this shit in the 80s.
And when he married Lisa MariePresley there was, I think, at
the MTV Music Awards, like hekissed her on stage to be like
(33:14):
you know the prove they weretogether yeah.
And so, to me, part of what Ifeel like, especially that
looking over his shoulder withthe with the golden eyes seems
like a way of being like yeah,he's, he's very soft spoken,
he's very slender, he seems likea feminine but he's all man
(33:37):
because he's a predator.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
I'm certain that the word predator was not what he
was thinking with that.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
No, no, no, no no.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Intentional, but I do think that there is.
There was a sense of likereassuring people, like straight
as can be.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
I'm a beast in the bedroom.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Yeah, yeah, similar with like the song Billie Jean.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Yeah, which was on that album.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Let's talk about Jackson.
Since we're talking aboutJackson, I I I'm not interested
in adjudicating the veracity ofsome of the claims that people
have made against him.
At a certain point, like, itjust becomes sort of a he said,
he said and like feels likesomething was not quite right
(34:28):
with this guy, especiallyvis-a-vis his relationship with
younger boys.
So this is like a specificexample where we can talk about
like how do we navigate this asconsumers of media when it
becomes clear that the maker ofthat media has untoward behavior
(34:56):
?
Right, like.
I feel like in previousgenerations we were taught to
just divorce the art from theartist, that they had
independent existences.
You know, we were taught tojust not pay attention to Pablo
Picasso's sexual predatorynature and appreciate his genius
(35:19):
.
And I think a lot of us havesort of said like uh-uh, nope,
because that gives a pass andwe're not giving a pass to bad
behavior anymore.
And I don't think it's blackand white, I don't think it's, I
don't think it's a binary oflike that's, that's it, we're
(35:41):
done, we can't talk about thatperson anymore.
So I'd love to like justbriefly, because we've been
talking for a minute, but justbriefly kind of wrestle with
this idea of like, especially asthe viewer, to look at
something and say like I lovedthis piece of media.
It affected me, it changed theway I think and see, and now I
(36:07):
know that the person who createdit did some things that I
cannot condone.
So what do I do?
I feel like this is actually avery important question.
So it's easy for me to sort ofsay like Woody Allen, I'm done.
I will never, ever watch aWoody Allen movie because Woody
Allen I'm, for whatever reason,my age or whatever, like he's
(36:31):
not a part of my furniture in myhead.
It's easy for me to be likenope, you can't get in because
he's not already in?
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Well, it's interesting because I think in
like movie quotes, yeah, so, andsome of the ones that are
really deeply embedded are BillCosby, yeah, bill Cosby himself.
So like, when I call my kid thewrong name in my head I'm going
.
But dad, I'm Jesus Christ,right, right.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Because dad had that album on vinyl that we listened
to over and over and over again.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Yeah, yep, and so like digging that out, which I
work to do so in Cosby's case.
Now, what's interesting is whatyou're talking about like a
divorce, the artist from the art.
They call it the death of theauthor, right, right.
I find that literally works forme, in that prior to Michael
(37:25):
Jackson's death, I could notlisten to his music.
Once he died and you could seethe fullness of his life in
context, because there was nomore to come.
I could listen to his music,again Interesting, and in part
that was because after his deathit became more clear to me how
horribly abused he had been.
(37:46):
Yeah, and then the fact thatyou take someone who has been so
terribly abused and then givethem unlimited money right.
It's just there's.
There's no way to come out ofthat.
Okay, yeah, yeah, I can recallreading a story about Michael
(38:08):
Jackson where he went to likethis high end department store
had them close it down.
It was like on a Saturday night, so he'd go in and shop and he
just pointed at stuff like that,that, that, that, that, that,
that, that.
And I remember thinking likethat's awful, like there's no
joy in shopping, in acquiring,in saving up for something and
wanting something because it isat your fingertips at any moment
(38:28):
.
And for someone who was soabused, it's understandable that
he would lean into like yes,that, that, that, that, that,
that, that.
But like his mental health wascould not have been good, yeah,
but that way, you know, it'sreally hard to say that what you
just said vis-a-vis what yousaid at the very beginning of
our conversation about how youhave a hard time with peril of
vulnerable people when theaction, at the moment the action
is happening, if it's prologueor backstory, you're like cool,
(38:52):
got it.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
You know what you said at the very beginning of
our conversation, how you have ahard time with peril of
vulnerable people, of vulnerablepeople, when the action, at the
moment the action is happening.
If it's prologue or backstory,you're like cool, got it.
And now that's what you'resaying about Jackson.
(39:14):
Right, all of his, both whatthe abuse he took and the abuse
he gave, is now prologue becausethe man is dead.
And so now you're able to lookat the art that he made and
consume the art that he made.
It's really an interesting likefollow through in terms of what
(39:34):
works for you.
I think it's really also.
I quite like what you'reoffering right now, which is not
to excuse bad behavior but tounderstand it within the context
of a whole person and a hurtperson who did hurt people.
(39:56):
And being able to hold all ofthat allows us to also hold the
art.
Yes, and I quite like that.
I mean, I gotta tell you, likesome of those old Jackson 5
records, they're amazing, sogood.
If I'm feeling down, that'swhat I want to listen to.
(40:17):
It like brings me back up.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
I very strongly recall watching the Billie Jean
video because I liked how thelike.
That's the one where as hesteps on these squares in the
sidewalk, they light up and it'sI mean it's.
It's nothing compared tothriller in terms of, like what
goes into the video, but it's acombination of the music.
(40:42):
Like you said, thriller is kindof a novelty song, whereas
Billie Jean is fire.
I mean that is a fantastic song, even though the message is one
I'm like.
But it's phenomenal and I havevery strong memories of watching
it, not understanding thelyrics at all but singing along.
(41:03):
And really, when you get downto it, even Jackson's later
stuff, which I don't think is asgood as what came, came early
on in his career.
But even his later stuff isstill catchy as hell and I still
will find myself like kind ofhumming along to it if it, if it
comes on.
(41:23):
Had he not been so talented, hewouldn't have been so abused,
because his family abused himbecause of his talent.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Right.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
And so it's something I like to say to my kids is
life is not a buffet meaning,like if you are envying someone
for something, you can't justpick that one thing and apply it
to your life, and it's not likeyou could switch places without
the other person either.
But everything is a packagedeal and so, like all of Michael
(41:54):
Jackson is a package deal inthat if he weren't so talented,
he wouldn't have been so abusedand he would not have then gone
on to be so abusive.
If he weren't so talented, hewouldn't have been so so wildly
wealthy, and which means hewould not have been in a
position to abuse like he did.
(42:14):
Because a big part of that wasbecause he was a star and he was
wealthy, and so people ignoredtheir better judgment or
whatever in allowing their youngchildren to spend time with him
, whereas like had he just been.
You know Mike, who works at thecar wash right.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
But he wouldn't have.
But he presumably might nothave had those proclivities
because he wouldn't have beenabused in the same way.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yeah, it's a cycle.
It's a cycle, so it's not abuffet.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
And so being able to see the context of Michael
Jackson as a whole person oncehe had died.
And some of this is also of theI'm of the feeling like I don't
want my money going to someonewho will hurt people, right?
Yep, so it is easier for me tolisten to his music and knowing
(43:02):
like whatever two cents thatthey get from my listening to it
on Apple Music is going to hisestate and not to Jackson
himself.
Yeah, in the same way like Iwill not read or buy or since
got card books once because hismoney goes to, like, gay
conversion therapy charities.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
And I feel very lucky that I didn't read.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Enders game.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
I was an adult, so it's not part of the furniture
of my mind.
But once Orson Scott card is nomore, I will feel more
comfortable about like at leastborrowing from the library.
I still probably won't readthat, just in case.
As a state is going to getconversion therapy to so like
some of this is very much apractical response, but at the
(43:46):
same time I will not go back toBill Cosby himself or the Cosby
show after he dies.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
I cannot appreciate the art from that artist, even
knowing the full context of hislife.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Yeah, that went dark.
Thank you, I'm going to bringus back to thriller briefly and
then wrap us up.
The one thing that I think isreally that we didn't talk about
much at all.
A little bit, but not toanalyze, is the Vincent Price
(44:24):
piece of it and sort of whatPrice's name and voice lent to
this novelty not novelty songand just like on a like really
surface, like humor level interms of subversion even right,
you've got this like white oldhorror actor, but there's like
(44:45):
there's a formality to Vincent.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Price.
There's a gravitas to VincentPrice, yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
And they refer to his voiceover as a rap in the
credits.
So, which I mentioned earlier.
That's one thing, and the otheris like actually reading the
lyrics this morning.
He says terrorize y'all'sneighborhood and like I, somehow
(45:13):
I thought he was saying likeyou, like I heard that for 30
years as some sort of archaiclike yours, like some sort of
archaic possessive second personpronoun it's y'alls, terrorize
(45:34):
y'alls neighborhood.
And like.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
I just wanted to lift that up.
Vincent Price saying like Ican't read this.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
No, actually I want to believe my head cannon is
that Price was like bring it on.
That is my head cannon is thatPrice was like into it.
So I just, I just like wantedto name that.
That like having him on thispop song was already subversive.
(46:09):
And then what they called whathe did, the word, at least a
part of the words that they hadhim say were also subversive of
expectations, which is alignedwith all that we and you have
been saying about this musicvideo from the beginning.
So with that, let me see, Well,any final thoughts before I
(46:31):
wrap us up.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Just that, the, the level of professionalism to
every aspect of this.
I mean obviously because theyspent $900,000, but just the
like, the, the makeup, thedancing, the choreography, the
costumes, the sets it was reallythe the, the direction, like
what you were saying is like thereally beautiful cuts, like
(46:54):
it's just.
I think part of what was amazingabout this was that Michael
Jackson took this, this form,this new art form, seriously.
Yes, and people hadn'tnecessarily been doing that, and
that, I think, is is part ofwhat makes what made Michael
Jackson so good, is he was likethis art form is worth caring
(47:21):
about.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Yes, and that's what Jones, spike Jones, says about
it.
He says, you know, they werehaving fun and telling a story.
It wasn't about marketingoutcomes, they didn't.
I mean, jackson did haveambition to be, you know, king
of the world, which he achieved,but that's the actual, like
monetary outcome was not whatwas driving him in making this
(47:45):
film.
He was having fun and telling astory.
Yeah, and that is not somethingthat anyone had ever done with
a music video before.
So I think you are exactly right.
All right, so let me see if Ican kind of, let me explain,
reflect back, some of our keypoints.
So I think first bucket is thestorytelling of the, of the film
(48:13):
itself, which shows yousomething that's familiar.
You know what to expect, andthen it subverts your
expectation, and then itsubverts it again, and then it
subverts it again, and then itsubverts it again.
It's just over and over andover again subverting your
expectations by using tropesthat you, that we recognize.
(48:33):
So that's the first thing, Ithink, part of what made it so
exciting and entertaining.
Another bucket is just that wetalked about.
That this video was tappinginto is how horror works in
society as a genre, which is toboth display the things that
(48:58):
we're afraid of and also at adistance, and also allow us to
have some prurient enjoyment ofthose of that fear or, in this
case, in many cases, a prurientenjoyment of women in danger.
We spent some time talking aboutthe death of the author
(49:19):
vis-a-vis Michael Jackson andhow, in this case, the death of
the author allowed us toreintegrate Jackson's music into
into rotation, because we wereable to see the whole person and
the unable to see his badbehavior as the result of other
people's bad behavior reallyaimed at and abusing him, which
(49:45):
doesn't make it okay but allowsus to hold the whole person.
And I closed with the sillinessof Vincent Price saying y'all's
neighborhood.
And there was a final pointthat you made.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
Remind me what was the final thing, the level of
competence and expertise.
So this actually gets back tosomething I remember we talked
about in the Clue episode, wherethey took the process seriously
but not themselves.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Yes, yes, yes, right, and that's part of what's so
magical about this 13 minutevideo is that it takes horror.
It takes B horror moviesseriously, it takes the music
seriously, it takes music videosseriously, but nobody's taking
themselves seriously and hencewe get these ridiculous, this
(50:42):
amazing zombie makeup in thisridiculous dance which has now
become completely a completecultural icon.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
The dance itself, the choreography itself yeah, yeah,
and that's that's something Ithink, because we have a
tendency as human beings to takeourselves too seriously and not
take a work seriously orprocess seriously, and so like
and so like.
People who are able to do theopposite are the reason, like
(51:11):
that's, that's why they makeincredible art.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Yeah, I think that's right.
Anything that I missed in myhighlights reel.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
No, no, I think that's.
I think that's everything it's.
It's this amazing culturalartifact that is.
It's iconic and I'm glad torevisit it, I mean just just
because of how how much it does.
This is not part of thefurniture of my brain that I
(51:44):
necessarily like recognizesbeing there, right.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
You know like.
But it is because you recognizethe funk of 40,000 years.
You recognized it.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
So I didn't like when I when I saw that if it had
been a Princess bride quote, Iwould have known exactly where
it came from, right, so likethat's, like, that's like the
sofa and the bed of thefurniture in my mind, right,
right, this is more like an endtable.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
Right, right, yeah, I'm with you.
I'm with you, all right.
Well, it's your turn next.
What are we talking about next?
Speaker 2 (52:16):
Next time I will be bringing you my deep thoughts
about trading places.
Speaker 1 (52:21):
Okay, cool.
Well, I will look forward todeep thoughts about trading
places and in the meantime,listener, if you have thoughts
about our deep thoughts, we wantto hear them.
So you can reach out to us onour website, guygirlsmediacom,
we have a reader's forum.
You can email us atguygirlsmediagmailcom or go find
(52:43):
us on social, and we would loveto hear from you.
We really would.
Hey, if you send us yourthoughts, we might read them on
the air.
Yes, talk to you soon.
Do you like stickers?
Sure, we all do.
If you head over toguygirlsmediacom, slash, sign up
and share your address with us,we'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy, butdon't wait, there's a limited
(53:06):
quantity.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember, popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
I'm Tracy Guy-Dekker and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts about Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
Today I'll be sharing my deepthoughts about the 1983 music
video Thriller by MichaelJackson with my sister, emily
Guy-Burkin, and with you.
Let's dive in.
(00:21):
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
just pop culture?
Others might deem stupid shit.
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come over, think with us aswe delve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
All right, em, I know youremember this.
(00:42):
I remember watching it with youin 1983 when it was released.
It was like a thing we all hadto be home so we could watch
this thing.
I very clearly remember Dad'sapartment in Carriage Hill, like
, and he was excited to watch it.
So I know you've seen it.
What do you remember?
(01:02):
What's in your head aboutMichael Jackson's Thriller?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
So there's a couple things from the time.
I remember being frightened ofthe music video In 1983, I would
have been four and of all thethings that scared me, what
scared me the most was that lastshot of my Michael Jackson
looking at the camera with theyellow eyes.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
I think Yellow yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
And like that because and it's interesting because
I'm still like this I can handlealmost anything in fiction if
it is backstory or prologue orif it's clear it's not really
happening, so like if it's adream.
But when it's like actualdanger Now I'm not four anymore,
(01:51):
so like actual danger doesn'tscare me like it does.
But there are things likechildren in danger, like certain
types of gendered violence.
If it's in backstory I'm finebecause I know that the
character got through it and isokay now.
But once you put it into likethe current moment of the story,
(02:12):
it scares me.
And I find it interesting thateven as a four year old, that
was the thing that like was likeoh no, even though, like, the
makeup of the zombies wasamazing and you know other
aspects of it that were trulyfrightening.
I remember that from childhood.
(02:32):
I have always loved VincentPrice's monologue at the
beginning.
Darkness falls across the land.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
It's actually in the middle.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
It's in the middle.
Oh, that's right.
Okay, yes, and that part inpart because Vincent Price's
voice is just magnetic.
It's perfect.
It is perfect for that.
When I was in college, myfreshman year of college my next
(03:03):
door neighbor, you know howdorm rooms you'd often have like
white erase board and someonehad written on.
One of the two roommates hadwritten on the white erase board
it smells like the funk of40,000 years in here.
And when I saw it I was likehow do I know that?
How do I know funk of 40,000years?
(03:24):
And like it took me a littlewhile to be like I'm hearing it
in somebody's voice.
Whose voice am I?
Oh, vincent Price, oh, thriller.
It took me a little while toget around to, like how do I
know that?
And you know, thriller is onethat's the video, is one that I
know I have gone back to.
(03:46):
You know I was a relativelyheavy MTV viewer in my early
teen years and so that was onewhere, like, if it would come on
like as a like throwbackbecause by then it was, you know
, 10 years old I would be likeoh, yeah, yeah, this is good,
let's watch it.
And I remember watching like amaking of video about it,
(04:06):
talking about how, even thoughthe woman playing his date is
seems to be like relativelypassive in terms of like,
choreography and stuff like that.
They were talking about how shehad to walk on the beat and she
was a dancer and then needed tohave like, and I remember that
being really interesting andimpressive to me because it just
(04:30):
had never occurred to me.
So so those are the things thatI can remember about Thriller.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout this today?
What's, what's, what's going onfor you?
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Well, for our project , we've been brainstorming about
pieces of media that have beeninfluential for us, and so
that's actually what got methinking about Thriller.
I remember that moment with dadwhere it was like we got to be
home so we can watch this thingbe, you know, be broadcast, and
thinking about how important itis.
(05:03):
And I was seven when it wasreleased and it's just been
there as it's like.
I don't remember a time whenthere wasn't a Thriller video,
you know.
And so, as a part of ourproject, I wanted to kind of
look and see, like, what is thefurniture of my brain that
Thriller is responsible for andhow do I feel about that
(05:27):
furniture?
So some of the things that I'dlike to get into with you are I
want to talk about the well, theinfluence that it's had,
because it really has beendeeply influential.
I want to talk about the.
I want to break down the actualstorytelling in this little
short film that Michael Jacksonmade and the tropes that it
(05:53):
referenced and reified and someof the choices that were made.
I want to talk about how genderplays out in the story that we
get, or there's actually sort ofa couple of stories, because
there's stories within stories,even within this 13 minute,
almost 14 minute film.
I think we should probably talkabout and this is as good a
(06:17):
time as any to talk about thedilemma of art versus artist.
Now, michael Jackson is gone nowand, ooh, talk about a troubled
soul and hurt people, hurtpeople, and like we can wrestle
with that a little bit, I think,in a conversation about
(06:39):
Thriller.
It's also fascinating to me,like Jackson I was reading this
morning off the wall did well,won a Grammy, but like just won,
and Jackson was like I can dobetter.
He set out to like make ablockbuster and he did it.
(07:02):
And you know we point toThriller, we culturally point to
Thriller, sort of like changingthe landscape, and I'll talk
about that a little bit.
And also it didn't really takeoff for another couple of videos
until, like he did the moonwalkfor the first time, for
(07:23):
instance Not to say it wasn'tinfluential even in 83, but
there were additional factors.
So I think this is also anopportunity for us to talk about
celebrity and popularity andsort of what it takes to capture
the imagination of the publicand how Jackson was able to tap
into that.
Possibly I don't know that Ihave the answer, but I feel like
(07:46):
that's an interesting questionfor us to wrestle with.
So that's where I'd like to gowith this.
Before I get there, let mequickly give this synopsis, a
reminder of this music videowhich, by the way, listeners.
It's 13 minutes and 42 seconds.
If you haven't seen it lately,go find it on YouTube.
It's there.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
It's fun.
We can keep it to late.
Yeah, I'll link to it.
Yeah, in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Good call.
I'll link to it in the shownotes.
So the video begins blackscreen, white letters.
Disclaimer from Jackson himself.
Due to my strong personalconvictions, I wish to stress
that this film in no wayendorses a belief in the occult,
which apparently was.
Jackson was raised Jehovah'sWitness and there were those in
(08:31):
the church who were not so happyabout this idea and this was
like a compromise, so that hewouldn't be ostracized or I
don't know if they doexcommunication or what, but
somehow this was a wow,disavowing the potentially
anti-Christian pieces of thisfilm that we're about to watch,
(08:52):
which I did not remember at all.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, one other piece of context, and like 83, I'm
not sure exactly when, this wasin the 80s, but there was like
hysteria about occult practicesin the 80s and there were the
day cares that were like shutdown because people thought that
they were sacrificing babiesLike I swear to God, this is
(09:16):
real and like ruined lives, andit was partially because of
things like repressed memoriesand stuff like that.
It was mostly what it was iskids are suggestible and so like
.
So did you see, you know, missNancy dancing around a fire
naked?
Yes, so like it's.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
I don't think that's what this, I mean this, was.
I think that's this predatesthat, because this was released
December of 83.
So they were working on it, youknow anyway.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Anyway that that that was part of the culture of the
1980s.
So Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
So we get this disclaimer and then we're
looking at like a 1950s car, aconvertible kind of, from a
distance.
It's nighttime, they're driving, the engine makes a weird sound
and then it pulls to a stop.
Michael Jackson is dressed.
Michael Jackson ended date.
It's Ola Ray is the actress'sname are dressed 1950s teenager
(10:19):
style.
So he's wearing a Lettermanjacket with an am on it.
He's wearing, you know, likeBobby socks or poodle skirt and
sweater deal.
And he says no, really, we ranout of gas.
And she says what are we goingto do now?
So the next thing we seethey're walking and they have
(10:40):
this cute little exchange.
He says he really likes her.
He asked if she'll be his girl.
She says yes, they hug.
And then he says I'm not likeother boys.
And she says I know, that's whyI like you.
And then we see a cloud movefrom in front of the moon and he
turns into a werewolf and wesee all the transformation, like
(11:01):
the whiskers and the fingersget longer and the nails, like
the full thing.
And meanwhile Ola Ray is justlike big eyed, like freaking out
, staring, screaming, watching.
She runs, he catches her andthen it's really beautifully
seamless.
We cut to a movie theater whereMichael Jackson and Ola Ray are
(11:25):
watching this.
It's a movie.
So the werewolf got thegirlfriend, presumably in the
film.
Ola Ray is really scared.
Michael Jackson is like superenjoying it, like the whole
audience is like scary and likekind of cringing and whatever.
But he's just like not at allflinching, just eating the
(11:46):
popcorn, like smiling andexcited.
She says can we get out of here?
He says no, I'm enjoying this.
She says I can't watch.
She gets up and leaves.
He follows her.
We see them outside the theaterwhich is like a old timey, like
single, single cinema theater,like the senator here in
Baltimore, if anybody knows thatone and the signs on it have
Vincent Price's name and thename Thriller.
(12:07):
That's the movie that they werewatching.
They start walking.
He's teasing her but she'ssmiling.
This is the part where she'swalking on the beat and he's
kind of dancing around her.
Now he's singing.
He's singing the song.
They walk past a cemetery.
That's where Vincent Price'srap they call it a rap comes in
(12:31):
and we see like zombies comingup out of the graves, graves out
of like I don't know what it'scalled like a stone coffin.
We see like a hand like move thestone, like sarcophagus.
Yeah, yeah, I guess so.
Yeah.
So they keep walking andthey're just kind of bantering.
(12:54):
He's singing the song and thenhe stops suddenly and they're
surrounded by zombies.
They're freaking out both ofthem.
They end up back to back andthen the camera cuts to her and
her eyes get real big and shelooks around and realize and
then we, and it does that thingwhere like like a quick zoom out
so she gets like further away.
(13:15):
That shows like she's alone.
And we see Michael Jackson.
He's a zombie Cue, the thrillerdance which we all know and do
in flash mobs.
Now A little bit more singing,which this is interesting to me
in rewatch.
He doesn't sing in zombiemakeup, he dances in zombie
(13:36):
makeup, but he does not sing inzombie makeup, which is really
interesting to me.
She runs away into this creepyold Victorian abandoned house.
They're like busting throughthe doors.
He busts through the door,she's like cornered on a couch
and it's just sort of likeshaking, scared, and kind of
(13:57):
closes her eyes as he reachesout and then he grabs her
shoulder, she opens her eyes andit's just normal Michael like
not zombie Michael, and he'slike what's the matter?
Come on, I'll take you home.
And she smiles, she's relieved,she was dreaming, I guess.
And then they get up, he putshis arm around her.
They're sort of walking out ofthe room, which is not an
abandoned room, it's a lived inhouse.
(14:19):
He turns around, looks over hisshoulder at the camera and he's
got the yellow like crowly eyes, like the yellow contact lenses
that fill the entire visiblepart of his eye with the slits.
Those were the eyes of thewerewolf from the movie.
So there's like these.
(14:40):
It's these interesting layerswhere we had this film that
wasn't actually the MichaelJackson in the red motorcycle
jacket.
That's most of the video.
But then that final scenethat's scared for your old Emily
actually is a throwback to thatfilm.
So that's what happens in thisbrief film.
(15:05):
Seeing this as a mini movie wasnovel.
It was new and from what I readthis morning, that was actually
John Landis who is the directorof this little film.
That was his idea.
So Jackson reached out toLandis.
He wanted Landis to direct themusic video.
(15:28):
He knew Landis as the directorof American Werewolf in London.
He didn't know any of his otherfilms, so he didn't know the
other comedies that Landis haddone.
At that point he knew AmericanWerewolf in London.
That's why he wanted Landis.
Landis said I mean he was likethe pop star.
So Landis didn't want to say no, but he sort of said I don't
(15:50):
want to do it if it's not like amini movie.
So Jackson was like, yeah, cool.
So Jackson and Landis sharewriting credits for this and it
cost $900,000 to make in 1983,which, thanks to your handy
dandy inflation calculator, weknow is almost $2.8 billion in
(16:12):
today's dollars.
They had to come up with how topay for this thing.
So that's how that making ofvideo happened.
They pitched that as somethingthat then could be sold for
extra content, which Landisactually really scoffed at.
I mean, he did it because ithelped make the money, but
(16:35):
afterward he was very dismissiveof even the notion of the
making of.
So our dad and our experienceof being there to watch it the
first time it was broadcast weweren't the only ones, and
people love this thing so muchthat actually releasing the
(16:58):
video on VHS was part of whatdrove VHS like VCR not the
player, but tapes.
People wanted to be able towatch this thing when they
wanted to watch it, not when itwas being broadcast and the
making of video sold for like$29.99 in our fight and was
(17:23):
making a face, that would be if900,000 is 2.8 million I'm not
going to do the math, but that'slike 60 or 70 bucks today.
Yeah, and it's sold, so it's,and selling the rights to
(17:47):
broadcast it to Showtime and toMTV was part of how they raised
the capital to make this movie.
Jackson put in some of his ownmoney.
The record label put in somemoney Anyway no, I'm wrong.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
It would be like 90 bucks today.
Wow, yeah, for the making ofThorella, for the making of
video, wow, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
So that's huge, like when you think about the effect
on culture and the demand andthe hunger for this thing, like
that's really remarkable.
So I want to, like, I want totalk about this brief narrative
(18:32):
and like why did we love it somuch?
I don't mean we, you and me,sisters, like we, the American
public why did we?
Why do we still love it so much?
You know, I mean, I think inpart because and I wanna hear
you on your thoughts on thisbecause you've spent a lot more
time thinking about horror thanI have but in my mind, part of
(18:55):
what's appealing about thethriller video is the way that
it taps into the tropes ofhorror without being
particularly scary, so you cankind of like enjoy some of the
constructs of horror withoutneeding to have that
(19:21):
physiological response.
Which I actually believe thephysiological response is part
of why people like horror,because it allows them to give
sort of an emotional releasethat's not actually about their
own lives and sometimes youdon't have or want that, you
know.
While some of the other piecesof it are still entertaining,
(19:44):
you know, like the raising thestakes of the girlfriend's fear,
knowing that it's gonna be okay, and that's actually something
that you know in terms of gender, that maybe we can dig into
about horror in general andabout the tropes that this taps
(20:05):
into in particular, like why isit entertaining for us that this
young woman is terrified of herboyfriend?
Why is that entertaining?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
So there's a couple of things that that brings up to
me.
I had forgotten, like Iremembered, her poodle skirt
from the scene in the thewerewolf film.
I had forgotten the like.
No, really, we did run out ofgas, and as soon as you said
that, I was just like oh dear,because I know that that was
like something that men would doto get women to be under their
(20:44):
control, basically becausethey're in the middle of nowhere
in a car that apparently has nogas.
And so what do we do now?
And we see them.
Walking is actually asubversion of the expectation
Completely.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
they're not making out.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yeah, and so that right there, like what's
interesting about this video isthat it consistently subverts
expectations.
First in like, oh, they're notmaking out, he's not a predator,
or you know, it's not a sexualthing, but to me it would be
(21:21):
like a young man running out ofgas with a girl in the car is to
me a predatory thing.
So like you've got, oh, he'snot a predator.
And he tells her he reallylikes her and she really likes
him too and he's not like otherboys.
Oh, subvert that again.
He actually, because he's, heis a predator, literally,
(21:43):
Literally a predator.
Yeah.
And then she is very much indanger and is attacked and like
horrible things are happening toher.
Oh, subvert that again.
It's not really happening, it'sa film.
So you know, this is actually,you know, a modern date and you
know she doesn't like scarystuff.
So, all right, we're leavingand he teases her, but it's good
(22:05):
nature and all of that.
So, oh, subverted again.
There's zombies.
Okay, well, at least they'retogether.
Oh, subverted again.
So like it's this consistentsubversion over and over and
over again.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
You're exactly right.
And then subverted againbecause it's a music video and
they start friggin' dancing.
Yeah, synchronized.
Yeah, the zombies us is backupdancers.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Which, and actually even as a child, I remember
being like, and that is notscary.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Like, not even a little.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Got a bunch of people and like truly kind of I mean
well done makeup.
So, like you know, depending onyour level.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
And they're like, as they're like walking, you know
Romero style like limbs aredropping off.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yes, yes, so like truly frightening, like special
effects, I mean, or makeupeffects, which then turns into
what we now call a flash mob,yeah, and okay, not scary, so
that there's that subversion.
So I think all of that you'reright about.
(23:11):
Why we like horror is the samereason we like comedy and the
same reason we like rollercoasters.
It's a catharsis, right, andthe catharsis of horror.
I feel like comedy and horrorare two sides of the same coin,
in that both of them rely onsome element of surprise, some
element of unexpectedness.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Right, because humor doesn't work without that.
Yeah, yes, yes, humor subvertsyour expectation.
That's what makes it funny,like yes.
If you just said you know, twoguys walk into a bar and they
order two beers.
That's not funny, right,exactly.
You have to actually subvertsomething.
Yeah, yes.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
With you.
So, and horror some horror is asubversion of expectations.
Feminist horror in particularsubverts expectations and is
it's one of the waysmarginalized individuals can
really examine the expectationsplaced on themselves as a group?
(24:12):
Their identity, yes, but theway that horror works in terms
of like physiologically, whenyou're watching it is it gives
you a sense of fear andcatharsis that is, as you said,
not related to your own life andallows you distance.
(24:33):
Now you asked why do we likeseeing young women in peril?
And that is where it getsinteresting.
Because comedy, in every jokethere is some sort of kernel of
truth or belief.
Horror is similar in that wemake horror about the things
that scare us, and so in someways, what that's saying is what
(24:57):
scares us is women in trouble,children in trouble, vulnerable
people in trouble.
So there is that aspect of it,and we had a TikTok on Halloween
where we talked a little bitabout the zombies versus
vampires.
Short version is vampires arethe horror monsters that we see
(25:20):
in America, in our pop culturewhen Democrats are in office,
generally with the underdemocratic presidents, and
zombies are the ones that we seeunder Republican presidents, in
part because the cultural fearsunder Democrats is sexual
perversion, which is kind ofrepresented by vampires, and the
(25:43):
cultural fears when we areunder Republican presidents and
also in times of war.
Is becoming this mindlessfollower that is only going
after our id, so eating brains?
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I think something even, or another piece of it,
it's not.
I don't think it's just sexualperversion, it's like a draining
of resources.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Absolutely yes.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
And an unfair undo like sort of the sense that
you're going to take what'srightfully mine, that I think
the bloodsucking mechanism ofvampirism is why that comes up
and under more liberal, you know, we're all in this together,
(26:30):
kind of talking yes.
So like, yeah, the lemmings ofzombies, of zombieism, of undead
, they're both undead, which isinteresting.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, yeah.
So that's an interesting aspectof this too.
I mean, I think like so.
This was in 83 under Reagan.
He did zombies.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
If it had been 96 under Clinton.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Under Clinton.
It might have been vampires, itmight have been vampires
Because vampires.
What about?
Speaker 2 (26:56):
werewolves Decadence.
So that's interesting.
Werewolves are often coded aslike feminine in a way, because
their change is related to thecycles of the moon.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
So are they coded as, like my brain is telling me
that there's there might, therecould potentially be like racism
around it, like in some of thewildness.
Yeah, in particular, since it'sJackson which, you know, mtv
claims there was never, you know, a whitewashing or you know,
not showing black artists.
(27:32):
I'm not sure the data backsthat up.
Regardless, like, jackson wascrime time and black, and so,
like MTV, like, made a big deal,we all sat around our TVs for
this black artist who turnedinto a werewolf, you know, in
the first few moments of thevideo.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Well, even just look at Teen Wolf.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Michael J Fox.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Michael J Fox film when he is a werewolf.
He is better at basketball.
Sports Right Sports basketball,like you know, a better swimmer
.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Oh yeah, good call.
Yeah, you know.
It's interesting too that I'mjust I'm thinking this now as
we're talking.
He's not a predator, he's not asexual predator.
We were afraid he was going tobe a sexual predator in the very
first scene with the gasrunning out, and then he
transforms into a beast and heis very much a predator, chasing
(28:31):
this scared woman.
So there's a sexualhypersexualization abstraction
to the werewolf as well.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah, there's a lot in there.
I mean, these reflect our fears.
So there's, I mean, the fear ofthe other, the fear of savagery
, the fear of hypersexualization.
There's also the fear of lackof control, which is the
werewolf transformation youcan't control, and then that is
also coded along with women'smenstrual cycles.
(29:07):
What's interesting also becauseyou mentioned why is it that we
enjoy watching young women beterrorized?
Because there is that fear, butit is also prurient.
Yeah, so we live in amisogynistic culture and so we
like seeing women suffer, and sothere can be kind of a pasting
(29:33):
over of the like oh, I likewatching women suffer, but it's
about like I want to see thefinal girl, or like the virginal
girl survives because she's agood woman, and we can even make
it feminist, like oh, yeah,well, sydney Prescott survives,
(29:53):
scream because she's a badass,but all these other girls die in
horrible ways and are liketerrorized, and so we can have
our cake and eat it too, whereit's like yeah, this is like
we're kind of going throughthese actual fears that our
culture has about vulnerabilityof young women, but we can also
(30:16):
enjoy the prurient experience ofwatching them suffer and often
the prurient experience ofseeing their tits, because in a
lot of horror that's how youknow who the bad girls are, who
are going to die, and then alsosay but you know, good women
survive.
So it's all tangled up in there,the misogyny in classic horror,
(30:41):
which is part of the reason whyfeminist horror is so exciting
and so interesting.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
You know, I think that the actual lyrics of the
song underscore the point youjust made, right?
So, because the lyrics of thesong are all about how all these
terrible things are coming toget you and you can't escape
them, you can't escape thethriller, and I mean there are.
There's also a verse about howI'm going to protect you from
the terror on the screen.
(31:08):
So it's, you know, mirroringwhat's happening in the video.
That it's, it's about a horrormovie, it's not about real.
And also, just like you know,that final, final frame of
Jackson with the werewolf eyes,it's like it's not real and it's
(31:32):
real, there it's, it's there's.
There's an ambiguity even withinthe lyrics, which I am
overthinking, I will grant you.
I am totally overthinking.
I think this Jackson didn'twrite this and I believe that
the guy who wrote it, like itwas mostly a novelty song, and I
don't think I'm putting thingsthere that aren't there, right,
(31:55):
they may not have been intended,but I do think that there's
this, like even the you know, Icould love you, I could love you
more than any ghoul could everdare try Like there is a sexual
component of the relationshipbetween the singer, jackson, or
(32:15):
the persona that Jackson issinging and the you to whom he
is singing, that also says likeyou can't escape, and I think
that's you know, that's worthkind of noticing at least.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Something I find interesting like to conflate the
character that Jackson'splaying in Thriller and Michael
Jackson himself, in part becausehe lived an official his entire
life and so he was constantlyunder scrutiny and so everything
he did intentionally, you know,like not when he was like being
photographed out and about, butanything he did intentionally,
(32:51):
I believe there was thought putinto it.
So he was described as afeminine and like not a real man
, because that's how we talkedabout this shit in the 80s.
And when he married Lisa MariePresley there was, I think, at
the MTV Music Awards, like hekissed her on stage to be like
(33:14):
you know the prove they weretogether yeah.
And so, to me, part of what Ifeel like, especially that
looking over his shoulder withthe with the golden eyes seems
like a way of being like yeah,he's, he's very soft spoken,
he's very slender, he seems likea feminine but he's all man
(33:37):
because he's a predator.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
I'm certain that the word predator was not what he
was thinking with that.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
No, no, no, no no.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Intentional, but I do think that there is.
There was a sense of likereassuring people, like straight
as can be.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
I'm a beast in the bedroom.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Yeah, yeah, similar with like the song Billie Jean.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Yeah, which was on that album.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Let's talk about Jackson.
Since we're talking aboutJackson, I I I'm not interested
in adjudicating the veracity ofsome of the claims that people
have made against him.
At a certain point, like, itjust becomes sort of a he said,
he said and like feels likesomething was not quite right
(34:28):
with this guy, especiallyvis-a-vis his relationship with
younger boys.
So this is like a specificexample where we can talk about
like how do we navigate this asconsumers of media when it
becomes clear that the maker ofthat media has untoward behavior
(34:56):
?
Right, like.
I feel like in previousgenerations we were taught to
just divorce the art from theartist, that they had
independent existences.
You know, we were taught tojust not pay attention to Pablo
Picasso's sexual predatorynature and appreciate his genius
(35:19):
.
And I think a lot of us havesort of said like uh-uh, nope,
because that gives a pass andwe're not giving a pass to bad
behavior anymore.
And I don't think it's blackand white, I don't think it's, I
don't think it's a binary oflike that's, that's it, we're
(35:41):
done, we can't talk about thatperson anymore.
So I'd love to like justbriefly, because we've been
talking for a minute, but justbriefly kind of wrestle with
this idea of like, especially asthe viewer, to look at
something and say like I lovedthis piece of media.
It affected me, it changed theway I think and see, and now I
(36:07):
know that the person who createdit did some things that I
cannot condone.
So what do I do?
I feel like this is actually avery important question.
So it's easy for me to sort ofsay like Woody Allen, I'm done.
I will never, ever watch aWoody Allen movie because Woody
Allen I'm, for whatever reason,my age or whatever, like he's
(36:31):
not a part of my furniture in myhead.
It's easy for me to be likenope, you can't get in because
he's not already in?
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Well, it's interesting because I think in
like movie quotes, yeah, so, andsome of the ones that are
really deeply embedded are BillCosby, yeah, bill Cosby himself.
So like, when I call my kid thewrong name in my head I'm going
.
But dad, I'm Jesus Christ,right, right.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Because dad had that album on vinyl that we listened
to over and over and over again.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Yeah, yep, and so like digging that out, which I
work to do so in Cosby's case.
Now, what's interesting is whatyou're talking about like a
divorce, the artist from the art.
They call it the death of theauthor, right, right.
I find that literally works forme, in that prior to Michael
(37:25):
Jackson's death, I could notlisten to his music.
Once he died and you could seethe fullness of his life in
context, because there was nomore to come.
I could listen to his music,again Interesting, and in part
that was because after his deathit became more clear to me how
horribly abused he had been.
(37:46):
Yeah, and then the fact thatyou take someone who has been so
terribly abused and then givethem unlimited money right.
It's just there's.
There's no way to come out ofthat.
Okay, yeah, yeah, I can recallreading a story about Michael
(38:08):
Jackson where he went to likethis high end department store
had them close it down.
It was like on a Saturday night, so he'd go in and shop and he
just pointed at stuff like that,that, that, that, that, that,
that, that.
And I remember thinking likethat's awful, like there's no
joy in shopping, in acquiring,in saving up for something and
wanting something because it isat your fingertips at any moment
(38:28):
.
And for someone who was soabused, it's understandable that
he would lean into like yes,that, that, that, that, that,
that, that.
But like his mental health wascould not have been good, yeah,
but that way, you know, it'sreally hard to say that what you
just said vis-a-vis what yousaid at the very beginning of
our conversation about how youhave a hard time with peril of
vulnerable people when theaction, at the moment the action
is happening, if it's prologueor backstory, you're like cool,
(38:52):
got it.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
You know what you said at the very beginning of
our conversation, how you have ahard time with peril of
vulnerable people, of vulnerablepeople, when the action, at the
moment the action is happening.
If it's prologue or backstory,you're like cool, got it.
And now that's what you'resaying about Jackson.
(39:14):
Right, all of his, both whatthe abuse he took and the abuse
he gave, is now prologue becausethe man is dead.
And so now you're able to lookat the art that he made and
consume the art that he made.
It's really an interesting likefollow through in terms of what
(39:34):
works for you.
I think it's really also.
I quite like what you'reoffering right now, which is not
to excuse bad behavior but tounderstand it within the context
of a whole person and a hurtperson who did hurt people.
(39:56):
And being able to hold all ofthat allows us to also hold the
art.
Yes, and I quite like that.
I mean, I gotta tell you, likesome of those old Jackson 5
records, they're amazing, sogood.
If I'm feeling down, that'swhat I want to listen to.
(40:17):
It like brings me back up.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
I very strongly recall watching the Billie Jean
video because I liked how thelike.
That's the one where as hesteps on these squares in the
sidewalk, they light up and it'sI mean it's.
It's nothing compared tothriller in terms of, like what
goes into the video, but it's acombination of the music.
(40:42):
Like you said, thriller is kindof a novelty song, whereas
Billie Jean is fire.
I mean that is a fantastic song, even though the message is one
I'm like.
But it's phenomenal and I havevery strong memories of watching
it, not understanding thelyrics at all but singing along.
(41:03):
And really, when you get downto it, even Jackson's later
stuff, which I don't think is asgood as what came, came early
on in his career.
But even his later stuff isstill catchy as hell and I still
will find myself like kind ofhumming along to it if it, if it
comes on.
(41:23):
Had he not been so talented, hewouldn't have been so abused,
because his family abused himbecause of his talent.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Right.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
And so it's something I like to say to my kids is
life is not a buffet meaning,like if you are envying someone
for something, you can't justpick that one thing and apply it
to your life, and it's not likeyou could switch places without
the other person either.
But everything is a packagedeal and so, like all of Michael
(41:54):
Jackson is a package deal inthat if he weren't so talented,
he wouldn't have been so abusedand he would not have then gone
on to be so abusive.
If he weren't so talented, hewouldn't have been so so wildly
wealthy, and which means hewould not have been in a
position to abuse like he did.
(42:14):
Because a big part of that wasbecause he was a star and he was
wealthy, and so people ignoredtheir better judgment or
whatever in allowing their youngchildren to spend time with him
, whereas like had he just been.
You know Mike, who works at thecar wash right.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
But he wouldn't have.
But he presumably might nothave had those proclivities
because he wouldn't have beenabused in the same way.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yeah, it's a cycle.
It's a cycle, so it's not abuffet.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
And so being able to see the context of Michael
Jackson as a whole person oncehe had died.
And some of this is also of theI'm of the feeling like I don't
want my money going to someonewho will hurt people, right?
Yep, so it is easier for me tolisten to his music and knowing
(43:02):
like whatever two cents thatthey get from my listening to it
on Apple Music is going to hisestate and not to Jackson
himself.
Yeah, in the same way like Iwill not read or buy or since
got card books once because hismoney goes to, like, gay
conversion therapy charities.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
And I feel very lucky that I didn't read.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Enders game.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
I was an adult, so it's not part of the furniture
of my mind.
But once Orson Scott card is nomore, I will feel more
comfortable about like at leastborrowing from the library.
I still probably won't readthat, just in case.
As a state is going to getconversion therapy to so like
some of this is very much apractical response, but at the
(43:46):
same time I will not go back toBill Cosby himself or the Cosby
show after he dies.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
I cannot appreciate the art from that artist, even
knowing the full context of hislife.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Yeah, that went dark.
Thank you, I'm going to bringus back to thriller briefly and
then wrap us up.
The one thing that I think isreally that we didn't talk about
much at all.
A little bit, but not toanalyze, is the Vincent Price
(44:24):
piece of it and sort of whatPrice's name and voice lent to
this novelty not novelty songand just like on a like really
surface, like humor level interms of subversion even right,
you've got this like white oldhorror actor, but there's like
(44:45):
there's a formality to Vincent.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Price.
There's a gravitas to VincentPrice, yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
And they refer to his voiceover as a rap in the
credits.
So, which I mentioned earlier.
That's one thing, and the otheris like actually reading the
lyrics this morning.
He says terrorize y'all'sneighborhood and like I, somehow
(45:13):
I thought he was saying likeyou, like I heard that for 30
years as some sort of archaiclike yours, like some sort of
archaic possessive second personpronoun it's y'alls, terrorize
(45:34):
y'alls neighborhood.
And like.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
I just wanted to lift that up.
Vincent Price saying like Ican't read this.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
No, actually I want to believe my head cannon is
that Price was like bring it on.
That is my head cannon is thatPrice was like into it.
So I just, I just like wantedto name that.
That like having him on thispop song was already subversive.
(46:09):
And then what they called whathe did, the word, at least a
part of the words that they hadhim say were also subversive of
expectations, which is alignedwith all that we and you have
been saying about this musicvideo from the beginning.
So with that, let me see, Well,any final thoughts before I
(46:31):
wrap us up.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Just that, the, the level of professionalism to
every aspect of this.
I mean obviously because theyspent $900,000, but just the
like, the, the makeup, thedancing, the choreography, the
costumes, the sets it was reallythe the, the direction, like
what you were saying is like thereally beautiful cuts, like
(46:54):
it's just.
I think part of what was amazingabout this was that Michael
Jackson took this, this form,this new art form, seriously.
Yes, and people hadn'tnecessarily been doing that, and
that, I think, is is part ofwhat makes what made Michael
Jackson so good, is he was likethis art form is worth caring
(47:21):
about.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Yes, and that's what Jones, spike Jones, says about
it.
He says, you know, they werehaving fun and telling a story.
It wasn't about marketingoutcomes, they didn't.
I mean, jackson did haveambition to be, you know, king
of the world, which he achieved,but that's the actual, like
monetary outcome was not whatwas driving him in making this
(47:45):
film.
He was having fun and telling astory.
Yeah, and that is not somethingthat anyone had ever done with
a music video before.
So I think you are exactly right.
All right, so let me see if Ican kind of, let me explain,
reflect back, some of our keypoints.
So I think first bucket is thestorytelling of the, of the film
(48:13):
itself, which shows yousomething that's familiar.
You know what to expect, andthen it subverts your
expectation, and then itsubverts it again, and then it
subverts it again, and then itsubverts it again.
It's just over and over andover again subverting your
expectations by using tropesthat you, that we recognize.
(48:33):
So that's the first thing, Ithink, part of what made it so
exciting and entertaining.
Another bucket is just that wetalked about.
That this video was tappinginto is how horror works in
society as a genre, which is toboth display the things that
(48:58):
we're afraid of and also at adistance, and also allow us to
have some prurient enjoyment ofthose of that fear or, in this
case, in many cases, a prurientenjoyment of women in danger.
We spent some time talking aboutthe death of the author
(49:19):
vis-a-vis Michael Jackson andhow, in this case, the death of
the author allowed us toreintegrate Jackson's music into
into rotation, because we wereable to see the whole person and
the unable to see his badbehavior as the result of other
people's bad behavior reallyaimed at and abusing him, which
(49:45):
doesn't make it okay but allowsus to hold the whole person.
And I closed with the sillinessof Vincent Price saying y'all's
neighborhood.
And there was a final pointthat you made.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
Remind me what was the final thing, the level of
competence and expertise.
So this actually gets back tosomething I remember we talked
about in the Clue episode, wherethey took the process seriously
but not themselves.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Yes, yes, yes, right, and that's part of what's so
magical about this 13 minutevideo is that it takes horror.
It takes B horror moviesseriously, it takes the music
seriously, it takes music videosseriously, but nobody's taking
themselves seriously and hencewe get these ridiculous, this
(50:42):
amazing zombie makeup in thisridiculous dance which has now
become completely a completecultural icon.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
The dance itself, the choreography itself yeah, yeah,
and that's that's something Ithink, because we have a
tendency as human beings to takeourselves too seriously and not
take a work seriously orprocess seriously, and so like
and so like.
People who are able to do theopposite are the reason, like
(51:11):
that's, that's why they makeincredible art.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Yeah, I think that's right.
Anything that I missed in myhighlights reel.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
No, no, I think that's.
I think that's everything it's.
It's this amazing culturalartifact that is.
It's iconic and I'm glad torevisit it, I mean just just
because of how how much it does.
This is not part of thefurniture of my brain that I
(51:44):
necessarily like recognizesbeing there, right.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
You know like.
But it is because you recognizethe funk of 40,000 years.
You recognized it.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
So I didn't like when I when I saw that if it had
been a Princess bride quote, Iwould have known exactly where
it came from, right, so likethat's, like, that's like the
sofa and the bed of thefurniture in my mind, right,
right, this is more like an endtable.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
Right, right, yeah, I'm with you.
I'm with you, all right.
Well, it's your turn next.
What are we talking about next?
Speaker 2 (52:16):
Next time I will be bringing you my deep thoughts
about trading places.
Speaker 1 (52:21):
Okay, cool.
Well, I will look forward todeep thoughts about trading
places and in the meantime,listener, if you have thoughts
about our deep thoughts, we wantto hear them.
So you can reach out to us onour website, guygirlsmediacom,
we have a reader's forum.
You can email us atguygirlsmediagmailcom or go find
(52:43):
us on social, and we would loveto hear from you.
We really would.
Hey, if you send us yourthoughts, we might read them on
the air.
Yes, talk to you soon.
Do you like stickers?
Sure, we all do.
If you head over toguygirlsmediacom, slash, sign up
and share your address with us,we'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy, butdon't wait, there's a limited
(53:06):
quantity.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember, popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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