March 5, 2024 • 58 mins
We are the sisters who say Ni! Bring us…a shrubbery.
On today’s episode of Deep Thoughts, Tracie and Emily dig into a source of both sisters’ understanding of what is funny, Monty Python and the Holy Grail. After 49 years, this film remains super funny, because it subverts our expectations.
With minimal plot, despite the purported quest for the titular grail, it’s basically just a vehicle for a slew of the Pythons’ favorite medieval sketches. A Deep Thoughts look at those vignettes reveals interesting questions about power, authority, and knowledge, nuanced (but not exactly positive?) commentary on queerness and masculinity, and a fundamental playfulness with the medium of film that remains delightful this half-century later. We disagree about how sympathetic we’re meant to feel about the leftist peasants’ self-governance, but we are in complete agreement that the Castle Anthrax scene is improved when we assume the oral sex Lancelot thwarts was to be performed by Galahad, not on him.
Don’t hurt your brain calculating the airspeed of an unladen swallow! Have a listen to our Deep Thoughts about Monty Python and the Holy Grail!
Mentioned in this episode:
The article about the zeitgeist: https://www.popmatters.com/monty-python-and-the-holy-grail-40th-anniversary-edition-blood-politics-sil-2495463955.html
One gay commentator on queerness in Holy Grail and Spamalot https://epgn.com/2020/12/02/one-joke-too-many/
CW: Discussion of transphobia, homophobia, Woody Allen and male fantasies of sex with teenaged girls
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Tracy Guy Decker and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts about Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
Today I'll be sharing my deepthoughts about the 1975 classic
Monty Python and the Holy Grailwith my sister, emily Guy Birken
, and with you.
Let's dive in.
(00:21):
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
just pop culture, but othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you knowwhat's worth talking and
thinking about, and so do we.
So come over, think with us aswe delve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Okay, I know you've seen thisfilm.
(00:41):
We've talked about it.
It was released the year beforeI was born, so four years
before you were born.
But tell me sort of what's inyour head about the Holy.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Grail.
So I remember the first time Isaw it.
I'm pretty sure it was thefirst time you saw it too.
It was with our across the hallneighbor.
We all watched it together.
The final three minutes whereit's just a black screen, I
remember all of us going like isthat really it?
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Do we keep it on what's going on?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
So I remember being quite confused by that.
I have a lot of things that arejust in furniture of my mind
from this movie.
I'm not dead yet.
I'm feeling much better.
I feel happy.
The background I talk a lot onthe show about story
construction and creativity andhow things are made, and one of
(01:35):
my favorite things about moviesin particular and anything that
is a collaborative effort ratherthan like a novel, is the happy
accidents that occur.
The wonderful visual gag of thecoconuts came about because I
think no one could ride horsesand they were too expensive, and
(01:58):
so they're like all right, howdo we ride around it?
And they created something thatbecomes a through line through
the film because of the how fastdoes a swallow?
How do the coconuts get here?
All of that.
But it's also just a phenomenaljoke.
It was a happy accident and Iwas delighted by those Then.
The one other thing I can recallwas I saw this film.
(02:21):
I was probably in like fifthgrade.
In about seventh grade I wasreading King Arthur in my
English class.
I think it was Mallory's MortD'Arthur, but I don't remember
exactly.
But it was probably.
I'm sure it was a bridged andsomewhat rewritten for modern
readers, but the fact that theCastle Anthrax scene is canon,
(02:45):
not exactly, but I was readingthat going like they didn't make
that up.
That just shocked me, and myseventh grade English teacher
was one I did not feelcomfortable going to and saying
did you know that?
They put this in my mind and Ikind of looking back.
(03:05):
I wish I had, because I'm surehe would have been delighted to
talk about it with me, but justfor various reasons I did not
feel comfortable talking to him.
But those are kind of thethings that I remember and think
about with Monty Python.
So those are my memories.
Tell me, why are we talkingabout this today?
Speaker 1 (03:26):
So listeners, Emily and I have a list of potential
topics and so recently I've beendoing a lot of really angsty
things that I've been bringing,or Indiana Jones that really
kind of didn't hold up toscrutiny.
And so when I was- reviewing,like scanning the list, and I
was like I need some help withsomething a little lighter, I
(03:47):
need something that is going tobe more fun.
And my eyes lighted on HolyGrail and I was like, yeah,
that's the one, that's the one.
But it was on the list becauseit is so foundational for what I
think is funny.
I think and I know I'm notalone Like so much of
contemporary humor, has MontyPython maybe not this film, but
(04:11):
Monty Python to think?
I've been thinking about itrecently because Michael Palin
or Michael Palin made that cameoin stage.
Oh, yes, yes, michael Sheen,where he gives them a hard time
for all of their improvisation.
He's like no, we wrote scriptsand we perform the scripts, and
(04:31):
he's like kind of a jerk to them.
But I just which I also found-and clearly he's playing a bit.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
He's.
That's not who Michael Palin is.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
It doesn't matter really.
But like and then like and thenMichael Sheen is like but I'm a
fan.
So I felt some like solidaritywith Michael Sheen and anything
that makes me feel like I'm likeMichael Sheen is pretty great,
so so that's how, by the way,monday is going to be Michael
Sheen's.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
February 5th.
It's going to be MichaelSheen's 55th birthday.
So happy, happy, michael, sexmachine birthday for all who
celebrate Sex, my being hismiddle name.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
But the time this air is, it will be past his
birthday.
So happy birthday, michael.
Anyway so that's why it's onthe, it's on the table today and
some of the things I want totalk about.
I want to talk about humor andwhat is funny and why it's funny
and how that subversion ofexpectation is also used to
lampoon societal structureswhich I find really really
(05:34):
fascinating and interesting and,as we always do, I want to talk
about some of the things thatmaybe didn't age as well or are
kind of missing.
So gender we need to talk aboutgender.
I want to talk about thatCastle anthrax scene.
I want to talk about the bloodand gore and filth in this movie
, which I think is also alampooning of the Romanticism of
(05:55):
Arthurian legend.
And then, because of the pastfew years, both John Cleese and
Terry Gilliam have alignedthemselves with transphobes.
Transphobes and and inGilliam's case, actually like
sexual abusers, because he was,he kind of pushed back against
me to very strongly.
(06:16):
I also want to kind of dig in alittle bit to queerness and
depictions of gay men inparticular in this film.
There's not a lot, but there'ssome, and so I'd like to kind of
.
I'd like for us to talk aboutthat a bit.
I'm going to give a very briefsynopsis of the film and
listeners.
I have not seen spam a lot, soI think I need.
(06:38):
I need to say that because thequeerness thing in particular, I
understand, gets, you know,really teased out in greater
depth in spam a lot there's alsolike a whole scene about how,
apparently about how you can'tdo a Broadway show without Jews,
which I am not touching.
I haven't seen it, I can'tspeak to how that's done.
(07:00):
So that's my parenthetical onthis, so I'm not going to give
like the full plot because, tobe honest, the plot such as it
is in my mind is just sort of avehicle for to string together a
series of Monty Python skitsset in the Middle Ages or yeah,
like it's not actually like acohesion.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
You know, the even, even like the Grail quest is
just sort of it's almost like anafterthought.
So but the characters that wemeet?
We have Arthur King of theBritons who is traveling the
land to try and recruit morenights for his round table.
As you mentioned, thisridiculous and just delightfully
(07:45):
funny gag of the, there are nohorses, there's like a servant
behind him with two halves of acoconut, like hitting them
together, like clop, clop, clop,clop, clop, to the sound of
them, which is how in radio,radio shows back in those days,
that was how they created thesound effects, the sound of
horse.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
So like, yeah, they didn't make that up, that came
from.
You know old techniques inradio show days.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
We meet.
The first tonight to join isSir Bedivere, yes, who is very
knowledgeable in science.
We see him kind of helpingtowns.
People walk through the logicof whether or not a woman who
has a carrot tied to her nose isin fact a witch, and she is
based on the like, absolutelyabsurd logic.
(08:35):
So she's first.
And then we also collect SirLancelot, sir Gala had, sir
Robin I think that might be allof the named ones.
They meet God, who is animatedin the clouds, king, who tells
them to go seek the holy grail.
They have lots of adventuresthat are ridiculous and bloody
(08:58):
and filth stained.
There is a killer rabbit.
There's an enchanter who cansummon fire without Flint, who
goes by the name of Tim.
There's Sir Gala had, is seesthe grail above this castle.
He goes in and it turns outit's not there.
(09:20):
That's Castle Anthrax, which ispopulated entirely by women who
are all between the ages of 16and 19 and a half and they are
tempting him.
We also see Sir Robin, who iscowardly and he has minstrels
behind him singing about howcowardly he is, which makes him
very uncomfortable.
We meet the knights who saymeet, which hurts people
(09:40):
apparently.
When you say meet the knightswho say me, apparently, when
they say it it's dangerous,painful, unclear.
Anyway, they send Arthur off ona side quest to go find a
shrubbery, I don't know.
They're doing some landscaping.
We end up on the bridge ofdeath where you have to answer
three questions, which could beas simple as what is your name,
(10:01):
what is your quest, what is yourfavorite color?
Or as complicated as what isthe airspeed philosophy of an
unladen swallow who knowsthere's a castle of Frenchmen
who taunt our heroes quiteviciously that's a lavash.
Come back and I will taunt youa second time.
(10:22):
Meanwhile, we also have like,because this movie is also
lampooning like historicaldocumentaries.
So we have this famoushistorian I'm putting quotes
around famous historian who'stelling us about what's
happening to Arthur and his menand then is killed by one of
them, lancelot, I believe.
And so meanwhile, runningthrough the movie, instead of
(10:44):
the historian as a talking headgiving us commentary, we see the
police investigation of thehistorian's death.
The movie ends when the copsactually catch up with Arthur,
interrupt a huge like, tons ofextras in chain mail attack of
the Frenchmen, again actually totry and get the grail, and then
(11:06):
a policeman or a police officeractually like, puts his hand
over the camera and that's justthe end, as you remember, like
that's the end, which, by theway, these guys were such
geniuses talk about subvertingexpectations.
They were able to do thatbecause they start the movie in
the opening credits with thesewhat appears to be Swedish
(11:29):
subtitles initially of justsubtitles of what we're looking
at and then turn into thisridiculous story.
Like you should come see Sweden, take a look at this and that
and the moose.
And then my sister was bittenby a moose once.
And then it says no, really shewas, but and it's all spelled
in these funny ways, with O's,with the like slashes through
(11:50):
them.
And then that stops, and then weget something where the credits
it says the people responsiblefor the subtitles have been
sacked, and then it comes backin the actual credits with more
stuff about moose, and thenthey're sacked again and it's a
totally different style and nowit's sort of Ecuadorian and it's
all about llamas.
I mean it's ridiculous, butwhile we, the viewer, were busy
(12:12):
like laughing at these jokes inthe subtitles, they got all of
the credits out of the way atthe beginning, so they could
just end it with a black screen.
So which?
So the very first joke and thevery last joke are related,
which I just love that symmetry.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Beautiful construction again.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, really, there's also some animation throughout,
not just the God in the clouds,but then there's sort of
animated sections throughoutthat are again in some cases
advance what little story thereis, and in other cases are just
little vignettes.
That's Terry Gilliam'sanimation.
So that's the background of themovie.
Listeners, if you have not seenthis movie, go watch it.
(12:52):
It's really worth it.
Like I have not done it justice, it is hilarious, I mean just
really really funny, Still eventhese almost 50 years later.
It's very funny.
It's streaming on Netflix, soyou don't have to, it's not hard
to find.
So I actually have a littlelist of things I wanna talk
about.
So I'll start with gender,because we so often start with
(13:12):
gender.
This thing does not pass theback down test.
There are more than one namedfemale characters, but they only
speak about men.
Well, zoot tells one of theother sisters in the castle,
anthrax, to go prepare, preparesa room or something, but it's
for Gala Head.
(13:32):
So, yeah, I'm counting it astalking about men.
So it doesn't pass the Bechteltest.
And that scene which I wannahear more about the canon
version of this, because thatscene Gala Head sumbles into
this castle, which we learnlater that they kind of lured
(13:53):
him there, but I don't even knowwhat to do about that.
So we've got this spokespersonher name is Zoot, played by
Carol Cleveland, who you justlet me know was a regular guest
with the pythons, and she'strying to keep him there and
(14:14):
keeps telling him about how softand nice their beds are and how
wonderful they are.
She's the one it's her voicethat says that they're all 16 to
19 and a half.
He ends up in a bedroom withtwo doctors.
Well, they've had basic medicaltraining.
He's injured on his thigh andthey're undressing him and he's
(14:34):
like there's no need for that.
He's pushing away.
They're clearly going for hiscrotch and he's like there's
nothing wrong with that andthey're like we are doctors.
Anyway, he runs away from thattemptation, runs back into Zoot,
who's not Zoot, she's Zoot'sidentical twin.
We realize that Zoot has luredhim there with the grail-shaped
(14:56):
beacon and she must be punished.
You must strap her to the bed,galahad, and give her a thorough
spanking.
And after that's done, you'llspank me.
And then all the girls there's,like you know, 20 or 30 girls
in these white robes, and me andme and me, they're all gonna be
spanked.
And then she says and after thespanking, the oral sex.
(15:17):
And just as she says that,lancelot rushes in to save
Galahad from certain temptation.
And Galahad's like no, no, letme face the peril.
Lancelot and the other oneother night like drag Galahad
away.
And as they're leaving CastleAnthrax, galahad says to
Lancelot something like bet yourgay.
And that's why he got draggedaway from the certain peril,
(15:40):
which was oral sex.
So this scene when I was a kid,it made me uncomfortable and
I'm not even sure I understoodwhy when I was, you know, when
we first watched it and my kidwatched this movie fairly
recently, like within the pasttwo years or so, and I remember
sort of not knowing how tohandle it, like I knew if I like
(16:02):
fast forwarded through it orsomething, she would just go
back and watch it to see what Ihad kept from her, so I just let
it go and decided to answerquestions if they came up.
But the whole treatment of it isjust awkward to me as a viewer
now, like it's such wishfulfillment like dudes wish
fulfillment that it doesn'tactually.
(16:23):
It's not funny to me.
It doesn't subvert expectation,it's just like oh yeah, this is
a male fantasy.
I think that's part of it.
But I'd love to hear from you,since you brought that up when
you were like here's thefurniture of my mind Like I'd
love to hear from you more aboutyour thoughts on that scene in
particular.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
The one aspect once I was old enough to understand
what oral sex was, because thefirst time I saw it didn't know
what they were talking about.
Likewise, Because the way thesewomen are acting towards
Gallagher my headcanon was hewas going to perform it on them.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
When I watched it just this morning, I actually
thought, maybe that I actuallyhad that same.
I was like, oh, maybe thatwhich I prefer.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yes, and so for part of the reason and I know I was
not able to articulate this at12 or 13, part of the reason why
I was so surprised that this isactually part of the King
Arthur canon is because it feelslike I was thinking of it as a
subversion of what is expectedof women, and so that there are
(17:34):
these women in white who aresupposed to be virtuous and who
all they can think about is sex.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Right, right, they definitely are meant to be
virginal in all of what thatmeans.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Yes, Culturally, yeah .
So finding out that it was inthe canon surprised the hell out
of me.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
What happens in the?
Can you give us the not tellyou don't remember.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yeah, I couldn't tell you the specifics.
It does not get into thedetails like this, but it is.
Gallagher ends up at thiscastle.
There's only women there, youngwomen there, who all appear in
white virtuous stuff like that,and they tempt him.
The specific temptations I amsure were not spoken of.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Spanking and sex.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Yeah, but it was clear that it was because
Gallagher was coded as sexuallypure in a way that none of the
other planets are yeah.
So this was testing his purity.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
You always have something to be younger right?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
I don't remember.
Oh, okay, sorry doesn't matter.
So the thing that got me is likeand again, I'm telling you,
this is not stuff I could havearticulated back then and I'm
only really starting to likecollate these ideas in my head
right now but I thought thatthis was subversive because
that's not something that wouldoccur in the original mythology
(19:00):
and it was about like, yeah,don't assume that women are one
thing.
Finding out that it was part ofthe original mythology actually
shows me that this is.
It's not subverting anything,because women are always put in
a binary of one thing or another, and so the subversion that
(19:20):
they look virginal but they arevoracious is not a subversion at
all.
And it's in some ways kind ofreminds me of you know how they
talk about how right-wingcomedians only have one joke,
like, yeah, I identify as a milkbottle.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Now, yeah, I can't even imagine that joke, uh-huh.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
It reminds me of, like the subversion of, like
this sweet, innocent girl who'sreally voracious, is the same
sort of joke that you see overand over and over and, over and
over and over again.
So that's where I land withthis.
The other thing, as youmentioned, carol Cleveland plays
Zoot, and her identical twinsister, carol Cleveland, I
(20:02):
believe, appeared in pretty muchevery episode of Flying Circus.
She was a regular collaboratorwith the pythons but she was
almost exclusively used as a sexobject whenever she was in
there, and she's a very talentedcomedian.
She has, like, excellent timing.
She has.
I don't know if she was in anyway part of the writing process,
I suspect not.
(20:23):
And she is gorgeous.
I mean, she's a beautiful woman.
So, you know, considering thefact that the pythons would
dress as women for lampooningdifferent aspects of femininity,
I kind of understand, like,okay, we need someone who looks
hot, we'll use Carol.
So if this were a movie thatwas directed, written, made by
(20:44):
women, this scene, well, for onething, the 16th and 19 and a
half Now, granted, 50 years ago,that joke was fine.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I mean I guess, so I don't know 16?
Come on.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
I know it was common is the thing it was very common
In, I think, Annie Hall.
There's a scene where WoodyAllen's character in an
emergency needs to get picked upat the airport or something by
a friend of his and his friendis complaining because he had
twin 16 year olds at home withhim.
(21:21):
Can you imagine themathematical possibilities
available to me?
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Well, yeah, okay, okay, and like I don't think
Woody Allen should be our role.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Oh gosh, no Like ultimately appropriate regarding
young girls, Like he goes bad.
I'm not saying that that isculturally appropriate.
What I'm saying is that it wasaccepted by people as like, oh,
that's a joke.
Yeah, If you know what I mean.
So anyway, that scene, the ideaof voracious women and a
(21:51):
nervous man as a kid I saw thatas like women taking control of
their sexuality in a way thatI've seen in me.
Uncomfortable, but not in alike I wish it weren't.
In this movie scene it was morejust like this is too grown up
for me.
And then, as I got older, Iappreciated it.
I appreciated the idea thatthese women have this agency,
(22:16):
the sexual agency that makesGalhatt uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
It's interesting that , oh sorry.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
But it's all part and parcel, because King Arthur is
a very Christian myth.
It's all part and parcel of theidea that women cause good men
to stumble.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
It's interesting, though another wrinkle on this
scene in this movie is that atone point, when we meet the
identical twin sister, who'salso played by Carol Cleveland,
one of the things that she sortof breaks the fourth wall and
says I really like this scene,I'm really enjoying this scene,
this scene is going really,really well, and then we see we
(22:52):
cut to like all the othercharacters at one point or
another, going get on with it,including like the huge field of
extras from the very finalscene yelling from a distance
get on with it, which issubversive of the medium because
, it breaks the fourth wall andthen has characters from who are
(23:16):
not in the scene kind ofcommenting on the scene and also
is like a little subversive ofwhat you're talking about right
now, because the woman is like,yeah, this is cool, I'm digging
this, and everybody else is likeall right, already.
Right, like get to the sex orwhatever.
(23:36):
I'm not actually sure that isin fact.
I think that's, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
That is not an uncommon Python joke, in like
the breaking the fourth wall,yeah, that kind of.
Get on with that thing.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah, and I mean the breaking of the fourth wall,
it's almost not.
I mean, when she says I reallylike the scene, it's almost like
a meta commentary on what we'rewatching.
Like there's one scene whereBedivere and Arthur meet with
this like really wild lookingold man who's meant to be
somehow magical, which is justcalled scene 24.
And in fact we see like there'sthe conceit of this like
(24:12):
illustrated manuscript, thatkind of shows that pages turn
throughout and it says scene 24in this.
You know very flowerycalligraphy, so that kind of
thing also, which I don't, it'snot quite breaking the fourth
wall, like right, like FleabagPhoebe Waller-Bridges when she
talks to the camera, to methat's quintessential breaking
(24:33):
the fourth wall.
She's talking to me directly,that's not quite what's
happening.
It's more of like a almost likean anachronistic meta
commentary on what we'rewatching.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
I don't know what that's called.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
So, anyway, castle Anthrax scene stood out to me in
the rewatch as one that like,unlike others, that I can dig
into and have deep thoughtsabout, and I'm like, oh yeah,
look at this kind of Marxistcommentary on power, this one,
I'm like I don't quite knowwhere you're going with this.
And I'm not, I don't know.
It just left me kind of alittle squiggy, maybe in part
(25:07):
because there's almost no womenin the movie at all, and then
these are so hyper sexualized.
So anyway, that's all I have tosay really about.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Castle Anthrax, I will say and this is not
necessarily true of all of thepythons, but I don't know that
the pythons in generalnecessarily have a great track
record for treating women likepeople.
For example, there is a like acompilation thing that I think
it's on Netflix, of I think allthe Python stuff is on Netflix.
(25:43):
There's a compilation of eachpythons greatest hits and each
one has that Python do like asof when it was recorded, which
is, I think, about 20 years ago,but still, you know, several,
many years on from when theFlying Circus was on, do an
introduction, and Eric Idle'sintroduction includes scantily
clad women for no reasonwhatsoever.
(26:04):
The other I've been thinkingabout this recently my husband
and I watched Brazil, which is aTerry Gilliam film that I don't
know if you remember watchingit with dad, yeah, dad loved it.
We should put that on the list.
We should put that on the list,and Gilliam's goal with that
film was to create a movie wherethe happy ending is the main
(26:25):
character going completely madand so he's living in his own
delusions.
There is the point where youcan tell that he's in his own
delusions.
You know he gets this likewonderful happy ending with the
woman that he's been in lovewith the whole time.
When I watched it again, mostrecently the 12 hours before, in
the film, this woman who he'sbeen obsessed with, who has
every time she's seen him beenlike get away from me, you're
(26:49):
awful, I don't want anything todo with you Seeks him out, puts
on because she's got very shortblonde hair.
She puts on this wig and a likea white nightgown and he has
like fixed things so that she islegally dead and she's like how
do you feel about necrophilia?
And they make love.
And watching it this time I waslike that is so gross because
(27:13):
she is not interested in him.
She would not see him out.
There's absolutely no reasonfor any of this.
And so in my head, canon whichI don't believe is what Tara
Gilliam intended is that that ispart of his delusion, like he's
already been captured, andbecause that is the only way for
that to be okay for me, becauseshe is acting completely and
it's all wish fulfillment.
That's something that I havehad to come considering how much
(27:37):
I love Money Python that issomething I've had to come to
terms with over the years isrealizing like they're gonna
look at me and see boobs.
If I'm lucky at this point,they're gonna look at me and see
nothing.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
So I do think related to that, considering the fact
that the punchline kind of asLancelot gets Gal had out of
there is Gal had saying I betyou're gay.
I do think it's interesting totalk about queerness, and
particularly since, before westarted recording, I mentioned
to you, which you did not know,graham Chapman, who plays King
(28:11):
Arthur and who is the most likeHollywood handsome of all of the
pythons, so he often played theprotagonist was gay and I
believe at the time of thismovie he was out to the pythons.
As I mentioned to Tracy beforewe started recording, I believe
it was John Cleese, but I mightbe misremembering, it might have
been Michael Palin was talkingabout, because Chapman passed
(28:33):
away in the 80s, was talkingabout after his death, saying
like when he came out to thepythons he wasn't upset but he
was shocked, but not in a badway, just in the way that like
it just didn't fit with what heknew of this person, because it
never occurred to him that hecould be gay and the example he
gave is like it would be as ifhe told me that he were Chinese.
(28:54):
That had never occurred to me,anyway.
So but in that way, to say likeit is something that is very
different from my knowledge ofthe world, but I recognize that
exists and I don't have anynegative stereotypes about it.
I just don't understand it.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah.
So let's talk about queernessin this film, though.
So the early ish in the filmthey say they're gonna go to, so
before cancel castle anthrax,they say they're gonna go, he
has all the nights and they'regonna go to Camelot.
So they get to Camelot andthey're outside the doors and
are outside the castle.
They're looking up this biggiant castle which is only a
(29:31):
model one of the series.
That's what I said.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
And-.
And isn't it Patsy who tells us?
Speaker 1 (29:36):
I think it is Patsy.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
It's definitely one of the series.
Yeah, and I think Patsy isTerry Gilliam.
I believe, but I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
And then we cut to what's happening inside Camelot,
and that's sort of what I thinkof as Spamalot it's a bunch of
men in chain mail singing anddancing like rockettes style.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
We like to push the pramalot.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
That's the final line .
Yeah, so, and we see this scenewith them dancing and on tables
and accidentally kickingservants as they walk by.
It was just really reallyabsurd and ridiculous Rhyming
with Camelot.
So we eat ham and jam, a lotand stuff like that.
And on this rewatch I noticedthat one of the lyrics near the
(30:21):
end of the song, the finalstanza, is in World War, tough
Enable, quite indifatigable.
Between our quests, we seek toinvest and impersonate Clark
Gable.
It's a busy life in Camelot.
That's the final stanza beforeI have to push the pramalot.
So that line between our quests, we seek to invest and
(30:44):
impersonate Clark Gable isclearly queer coding of these
dancing and singing nights.
After that scene, 30 secondsafter that line is sung, arthur
shakes his head and says youknow what?
Let's not go to Camelot.
It's very silly, to your pointabout, it's just outside of the,
it's not like let's not gothere.
(31:06):
There's no, there's a slur usedright, they just say it's silly
.
And silly is an adjective thatapplies to the pythons always.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Always yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
So there's that.
The other example of queernessin this film is, you know, fast
forward, we meet Herbert and theSwamp King.
So Herbert's about to bemarried, he's the prince of the
swamp and he's gonna be marriedto a woman who has huge tracts
(31:39):
of land and he does not want tobe married.
He's very effeminate,definitely meant to be read as
gay, shoots an arrow out thewindow with a note that says
please save me on being forcedto marry against my will, which
Lancelot retrieves and believesis a princess.
So Lancelot like barges intothe swamp castle and kills
(32:00):
anybody in his way, includingthe father of the bride, and
like wedding guests.
And you know, I mean it's gory,it's horrible, like leading to,
and then he finds Herbert inthe tallest tower and is like oh
, sorry, sorry, sorry, like thisdeadpan.
So part of the joke was thissort of deadpan, sorry, sorry.
(32:21):
Part of it was, you know,lampooning the chivalry as an
excuse for psychopathic behavior.
But Herbert was also, I think,a butt of the joke.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Especially in so far as he's like I'm ready, like,
like, let's escape Lancelot.
And he, like, throws the hemade a rope out of sheets or
something and he starts to climbout the window and the dad
realizes that Lancelot's fromCamelot and like, cuts the rope
like to let his son fall to hisdeath.
So Herbert is not unsympathetic, but he's a joke and he's
(33:01):
definitely meant to be read as agay man.
So it feels a little gray to meNow, remembering that this is
50 years ago.
It doesn't feel culturallyinappropriate, homophobic, if
you know what I mean.
Like for the time, but itdoesn't feel good in 2024.
How about that?
Speaker 2 (33:20):
It's also interesting that Lancelot is played by John
Cleese, who we talked a littlebit about, how he and Terry
Gilliam in particular have beenreally disappointing in terms of
transphobia and in terms ofvery progressive views.
So one of the jokes is like soHerbert's father cuts the rope
(33:40):
and then he, like Lancelot, islike, oh, I'm sorry about all
the dead people.
And Herbert's father is like ah, come, let's have a beer or
something like that.
I mean like they clearly arelike oh, you're a good one,
You're a good one, you know,they recognize like to like in
that.
And so there is a bit of thesatire and the lampooning of the
(34:01):
fact that people are willing toaccept awful behavior from
people they recognize as beinglike them.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
And there was also a lampooning of capitalism in that
, because the Swamp.
King is very interested in realestate.
I mean like it's really aboutmoney for him.
This marriage from thebeginning is about money.
Part of his appreciation forLancelot is in fact Camelot and
how valuable that land is.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
And I recognize that like it's a both end, because
there is definitely a lampooningof, like the chivalry, like
you're talking about theviolence, that you're talking
about the even.
Like the arranged marriages,how they're not good for anyone
in the way that we knew them inEurope.
(34:48):
I know that there are culturesthat have arranged marriages.
Where they are they work reallywell, but in this sort of like
consolidating land, I havenothing to do with, I think,
marriages arranged for power.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
I can say without hesitation that's not a good
thing.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Yeah, they're bad for everyone.
So other other types ofarranged marriages I think can
certainly work.
But the ones where it's likeit's about power and it doesn't
actually have to do withcompatibility or anything, it's
not going to be good.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Not about as best for the two people getting married,
but for their families power.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yes, yes.
So like there's, all of that isin there, but then it's also
like Herbert doesn't get to live, you know, and we're supposed
to be okay with that, yeah.
And granted, like yeah granted,it's not like this movie has
like heroes, exactly Like wefollow King Arthur and the
(35:45):
Knights all throughout and atthe end they're they're arrested
, right.
So like it's, and becausethey've done something awful,
right.
But in every joke there's akernel of truth, or a kernel of
belief, but rather than truth ofbelief.
So, which is why, like therepeated right wing joke of like
(36:09):
oh, I identify as a fighter jetis what I mean.
It's not funny, and theybelieve that they are lampooning
something when all they'redoing is repeating bigotry.
So in jokes that work, you canboth be lampooning something and
be perpetuating unconsciousbiases.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Which could be bigoted Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
So let's talk about lampooning then.
So there's, I was doing alittle bit of reading this
morning and there's actually itwas the year before I was born,
and so my really comprehensionof the culture, the zeitgeist,
is historical.
The person that was readingthis morning was talking about
like post-Vietnam, post-nixonera.
(36:57):
There's, there's somelampooning of that reality, like
the result of that reality,lampooning power and war.
This person was saying that thewhen Arthur faces the black
night, and Arthur ends up likecutting off all four of the
man's limbs, and he's still likecome back, I'll bleed.
You know, come back, I'll biteyour kneecaps off.
And you know, arthur's likewhat are you going to do?
(37:17):
Bleed on me.
And this person was like thatis kind of the experience of the
US and Vietnam, like the muchgreater military power, not
understanding why the other sidewouldn't just give up.
If that is there, miss it Still, don't I just going to have to
take this person's word for it.
What I do see, though I don'tneed to know the zeitgeist in
(37:40):
order to see the real take downof power and what you know, sort
of the idea of a meritocracyand like what power is you know,
when Arthur, one of the veryfirst scenes with anybody else.
Arthur, like calls, actuallycalls Michael Palin old woman,
(38:01):
and he's like I'm not a woman.
He says sorry, old man.
He says I'm 37.
Well, I can't just call you man?
Well, call me Dennis.
Anyway.
Dennis says to Arthur like well, who made you King?
Why are you King?
And he's like well, the lady ofthe lake gave me Excalibur.
He says you know random womenin bodies of water, and handing
(38:24):
out swords is not a way toestablish power and authority.
And it's funny as heck.
And there's also something likedeeply powerful and true in the
like questioning where doesauthority come from?
Speaker 2 (38:44):
and why do?
Speaker 1 (38:45):
we allow folks to wield it.
So I think, that's reallyinteresting and powerful and
that was something that,watching it now with these eyes
for our project, I was likeright on.
You know like that's actuallyvery cool, that that's a part of
it.
And so lampooning power andauthority, lampooning sort of
(39:10):
the entitlement that you know,arthur's so impressed with his
own kingship.
He said I'm king of the Britonsand the people that he's
talking to are like what's aBritain?
We're all Britons.
They don't care about nationstates and boundaries and
(39:32):
whatever, they're just trying tomake living.
And there was something reallyalmost charming about that line
of humor.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Do you think, because I have always felt that that's
undercut in a little bit by whenDennis starts explaining how
they self-govern and he's likewe're a board that changes every
other week and going into likeextreme detail of something that
would be very difficult tomaintain, that's an interesting
(40:03):
point.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Possibly, possibly.
I don't actually think what hedescribes is completely
unreasonable.
I mean, it was a very frequentand maybe this is just revealing
how left-wing radical I am.
It didn't sound actually thatabsurd to me.
It sounded very part of thatmoment of Dennis explaining what
(40:24):
they do to govern wasoverwhelming Arthur, who is not
that bright a bulb.
That was more of.
My takeaway was that Arthur'sjust not that bright and so
those details were.
He just became sort of deer inthe headlights, like stop
talking.
Because he just doesn't get it,which is part of it, and you may
(40:50):
be right that the writers werealso sort of lampooning radical
lefties like me, but Arthur'snot.
I mean his right to kingship,even.
He even has God talk to himdirectly, but it's still kind of
absurd.
Perhaps it was a suggestionthat, like all forms of
government are subject toabsurdity.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
The other aspect of that scene is when he gets
frustrated at Dennis and startslike manhandling him and Dennis
is going help, help, I'm beingoppressed.
I took that as also like kindof the center right view of
people on the left let's talkabout like microaggressions or
things like that.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Oh, I don't know, I didn't take it that way at all.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
It works.
Arthur's gonna I mean, whoknows what Arthur's gonna do,
but he's.
He is putting hands on him andis like dragging him away from
the dirt farming he's doing, andDennis, like kind of yelling,
like the other folks in thefield, start coming over and
Arthur leaves him alone.
I didn't read it that way.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
I always took it as the movie saying that Dennis is
overreacting, but I like yourinterpretation better.
I'll have to rewatch it withthat in mind, because I have I
don't know, maybe I'm justwatched it with a very cynical
eye.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
You could be right.
That is not the way that I readit, in part because Dennis's
whole like a woman handingweaponry out from a lake is not
a way to govern.
It's like so concisely said andperfect.
Yeah, true.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
That you know my lefty heart is like right on
Dennis, and so maybe that's myunconscious bias.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Yeah, that's so.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
I certainly didn't read it.
I did not read it that way.
I read that actually as Arthurbeing overwhelmed by the, by the
perspective.
The details of real governingand the perspective of Dennis,
like sort of calling him out forhis bad behavior.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
You know it's interesting.
So both of my boys are reallyinto fantasy right now.
They like fantasy novels andthey're watching TV shows, and
so they'll.
They'll tell me about stufflike, yeah, and that's how you
know, this kid became king andlike, in some ways, like I'm
perfectly glad to be doing this.
In other ways I'm like I'm I'mruining their childhood before
they're even out of it.
I was like, really the best wayto choose a leader I think he's
(43:05):
going to be, you know, any goodat doing that?
Speaker 1 (43:08):
You know.
So one more point on this, andthen we should probably think
about wrapping up, because we'vebeen talking for a minute.
But on this point in the columnof the movie makers are kind of
on Dennis's side, possibly.
I want to talk about Bedivereand knowledge in general.
Mm, hmm, right, so in the witchtrial scene, which is
(43:29):
absolutely ridiculous, just aslike actual witch trials were
just as ridiculous- it's notthat far off.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
I mean, they actually would throw them in the water
to see if they.
If they sunk, then that meansthat they were human, and if
they didn't, then that meantthey were a witch.
So it didn't matter, you weredead either way.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
Right.
So the absurdity is is not faroff right from and Terry Jones
was in fact a medievalist thatsort of lampooning of knowledge
and science, because Arthur andBedivere refer to one another as
men of science, right, mm, hmm,and.
And then Bedivere just keepsmessing it up.
(44:07):
Right, like with the Frenchman,they build a Trojan rabbit, and
then Bedivere is explaining howthe.
After the rabbit gets pulledinside the French castle,
bedivere is like, yeah, afternightfall, then Lancelot and
Galahad and I will jump out ofthe rabbit.
He as the smartest one islampooned again and again which
(44:28):
I think is kind of a mark in thecolumn of Dennis being just
smarter than Arthur in his likeI'm being oppressed kind of a
thing.
I wouldn't die on this hill, butI would offer it as an
interpretation.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
What I'm wondering about and this is like thinking
about something that was made in1975 and 2024, but in the past
25 years, definitely.
I know that you and I have seenthe erosion of trust in experts
and so the lampooning ofsomeone who is an expert.
(45:04):
It hits oddly.
Now, that's not to say thatthere aren't idiots who are
experts, and knowledge is notalways beneficial.
When knowledge is based on, youknow, bad faith and bad science
and is unwilling to questionitself is really what it comes
down to Just knowing thepolitical leanings of at least
(45:25):
two of the pythons.
Now it's something that Iwonder about Now.
Terry Jones.
He passed away a couple, threeyears ago and I remember being
really sad about it, the waythat when he died, I saw someone
on Twitter say like yeah, he'sone of the few pythons who
hasn't tripped over his own dicklately.
Terry Jones and Michael Palinare the two pythons who
(45:48):
consistently seem to be goodguys, or they at least know to
keep their mouth shut.
Yeah yeah, yeah, it's not thesame thing.
Not the same thing, but that'sone of the things that
infuriates me about John Cleeseand Terry Gilliam is like I have
such reverence for your work.
(46:08):
If you just shut the fuck up,you can hold onto that reverence
for your work without feelingconflicted about it and like
because nobody asked you.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really none of your
business.
I think that's a very goodpoint.
And there's something going onin this movie about the idea of
experts and knowledge and sortof.
There's something about theentitlement of the Knights that
I do think is intentionallybeing lampooned, which is not
the same as expertise and sortof fake news ideas.
(46:40):
Because, like when Arthur firstmeets, like the very first cast
that he comes to, and he's likeyou don't even have a horse,
you're hitting coconuts together.
Where did you even get thecoconuts?
It's a tropical.
And then, like Arthur rides I'mputting quotes like that rides
away with Patsy, while thoseguys are still arguing about how
two swallows maybe could carry,like they're trying to do the
(47:05):
physics and the biology and themath to determine whether or not
swallows could carry a coconutfrom warmer climbs, which Arthur
thinks is ridiculous, it'sabsurd in wasting his time, but
actually is what saves Arthur inthe end, because he knows that
there's such a thing as anAfrican and a European swallow.
(47:26):
So there's something, there's aproblematization, there's
something going on about sort ofknowledge who keeps it, what
the entitlement is like, who'sentitled to knowledge, what is
useful knowledge?
I do think that there arequestions being suggested in
there which is more complicatedthan just a sort of that expert
(47:49):
is inconvenient.
I'm not interested in thatexpertise because it counters my
worldview which is what I seein sort of right wing lampooning
and erosion of expertise.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
It's also interesting because we are firmly on the
side of the witch in that scenethe so-called witch, and the
fact that no one will listen toher because she's a woman, the
fact that one of the heraccusers is clearly lying, like
she turned me into a noot, andhe's clearly not a noot well, I
got better.
So we are being shown thatknowledge being used to deny
(48:28):
someone's humanity and likeknowledge, as my 10 year old
says, quotation marks.
So anytime he uses fingerquotes, he's like did you see my
quotation marks, mom?
I wanna make sure you saw myquotation marks.
It's adorable.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Anyway.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
I think that that's also interesting and adds to
like.
There is also this sense oflike, positioning modern people
against the like man.
Weren't they dumb back in themiddle ages?
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Yes, that is definitely happening.
That's what, and that's whatDennis does actually.
Yes, yeah, there's definitelyan anachronistic piece of it as
well.
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
There was a study a long time ago well, I say a long
time, like 15, 20 years agoabout what kind of humor each
country finds the funniest, andso, like they had different
jokes, I could not tell you thejoke for the UK.
In France, the joke that theyfound funniest was a dog goes
(49:28):
into a telegraph office and saysI wanna send a telegram.
And they're like okay, what doyou want it to say?
Woof, woof, woof, woof, woof.
And the telegraph operator sayswell, you know, for just five
cents more you could do two morewoofs.
And the dog says that would beridiculous.
So that's the French idea ofhumor.
(49:49):
In America it's man calls 911,911 operator says okay, what's
your emergency?
Like, oh, I'm out hunting withmy friend and I accidentally
shot him.
And so the 911 operator says,okay, well, can you go check and
make sure?
Is he dead?
The operator hears a gunshotwound or a gunshot go off and
(50:10):
the guy comes back and he's likeokay, he's definitely dead.
Now what?
Now what?
Speaker 1 (50:13):
That's what.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
Americans think is funny.
Ew, ew, ew.
I know, I know I so much preferthe woof, woof, woof.
The analysis that I read saidthat Americans find things that
make them feel superior, funny,and that's a very common aspect
of humor.
That joke allows you to feelsuperior to the accidental and
then intentional shooter and the911 operator for speaking so
(50:38):
poorly.
I would love to and I'll see ifI can find the studies find out
what the UK is.
That British humor tends to bea little more absurdist than
American humor, but not quite asabsurdist as woof, woof, woof,
woof.
French humor, I think, tends tobe incomprehensible to most
English speakers.
Speaker 1 (50:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
So, anyway, that is one aspect of it as well, which
is why I think part of thereason why it appeals to
American audiences is we get tobe like we're so much smarter
than those stupid middle agespeople.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Apparently, Cleese has said that life of Brian is
actually their most popular filmin the UK and the Holy Grail is
the most popular amongAmericans.
Oh, that's interesting yeah yeah, Okay, we've been talking for
over an hour, so let me see if Ican give some salient points
and then we can wrap up.
(51:31):
So Monty Python and the HolyGrail still hilarious almost 50
years later, so so funny.
It is funny because it subvertsour expectations.
That's where the humor comes inand that's also where the
social commentary comes in.
There's some weirdness aroundexpectations that are subverted,
(51:51):
that are and aren't that betray, unconscious bias, especially
around gender and women'ssexuality, with the Castle
Anthrax scene, and around gaymen, in particular with poor
Herbert.
Though it's not cut and dried,this is not a black and white
sort of like.
This is homophobic.
It's much more nuanced thanthat and complicated, which
(52:14):
makes sense for this troupe ofcomedians.
This thing doesn't pass theBechdel test.
There's some disagreement, evenbetween you and me, about
whether or not the lampooning ofthe divine right of kings with
a sort of Marxist leftist formof government is in fact, also
lampooning that Marxist leftistgovernment.
(52:35):
Maybe.
I'm not 100% sure.
It has been revealed that atleast two of the pythons who are
still living are a little bitmore products of their time than
I would have liked, especiallyaround oh, what I've expected.
Yeah, yeah, especially aroundtransgender issues, Also women
(52:56):
being treated as humans.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
The Castle Anthrax scene is improved if you assume
that the oral sex is going to bereceived by the women rather
than given.
Yeah, I agree, which honestlyis the only way that makes sense
, considering there's like 20women and one man and one of you
.
Speaker 1 (53:15):
yeah, agreed, yeah, yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely
.
There's an interesting thingthat this movie does that is not
quite breaking the fourth wall.
It's kind of in that directionbecause it's like a meta
commentary upon the medium.
Where we see this is scene 24,where the Arthur and his knights
escape from a monster becausethe cartoonist dies.
Speaker 2 (53:39):
The illustrator died.
The animator dies.
Speaker 1 (53:42):
So things like that, and we also have that weird, not
weird that fascinating mix oftimelines where the movie ends
because Arthur's arrested Again.
It's not a breaking of thefourth wall, but it is playing
with the medium and with theconceit of what it is that we're
watching the use of thecoconuts as just such a perfect
(54:04):
example of happy accidents andallowing limitations to set you
free with your creativity.
And also sort of using the useof the credits and the subtitles
and the jokes in the subtitlesso that the end can be that like
wait, are we done?
So?
That is another example of likeusing the medium itself to tell
(54:26):
a joke and a subversion ofexpectations that way, so that's
also worth noting.
Speaker 2 (54:32):
That's why they're brilliant.
I mean, they really, really arebrilliant.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
They truly are so products of their time, no doubt
, and also just really, reallybrilliant.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
And also Carol Cleveland appreciation.
Yes, I want to.
For those of you listening, gowatch anything the Python's did
and she will be there when theywere still Python's.
I mean, like once they're doingindividual projects, no, and
she's phenomenal and does notget enough credit.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
Probably didn't do it , justice.
Go watch it.
Share your thoughts with us.
What did I miss?
Like what is brilliant orproblematic or insightful, or
just what's your favorite bit,because there are so many, so
many funny things Let us knowwhat.
What is it about the Holy Grailthat you want to make sure that
(55:24):
you know?
We know that you're thinkingabout.
You can let us know via email,guygirlsmediacom.
Go to the listeners forum onour website I'll put a link in
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(55:45):
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So next time, m, it's supposedto be your turn, but actually
(56:06):
we're gonna have a guest.
So Jonathan Shore is a friendof mine and a retired media
studies professor, and he'sgonna come talk to us about
reporters and journalism in popculture.
I'm not sure which film he'sgonna lead with, but I'm pretty
excited to hear what he has tosay.
So that'll be next time, andthen we'll go back to our
(56:28):
regularly scheduled alternatingsisters after that, and in the
meantime, I think you have somelistener comments.
Speaker 2 (56:38):
I do.
I have some fun listenercomments.
One is from Ava who, onlistening to our episode about
Willy Wonka and the ChocolateFactory, said I thought the
white savior stuff you weretalking about with the little
bloompas was satire.
But I guess I never reallyanalyzed any of the rest of the
movies.
And she has a smiley face.
I'll have to go back and watchit now.
Then one day later I got thismessage from Ava oh my God, jake
(57:02):
, who's Ava's husband, showed mepictures from the original book
and she has a shocked face.
Probably not satire, yikes,yeah, yeah.
So.
And then I got another greatcomment from Malia on how we
have realized that we have thistendency to ruin our own
(57:23):
childhoods with this project,and she explains the moment in
Gremlins where she says atChristmas, some people are
opening presents and others areopening their wrists.
That was not what I remembered,so I have not seen Gremlins
since childhood.
Me neither.
Speaker 1 (57:40):
We should put it on the list.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
It's apparently.
It is even darker than.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
I remember.
Thanks, malia.
Okay, well, I look forward toseeing you next time.
Do you like stickers?
Sure, we all do.
If you head over toguygirlsmediacom, slash, sign up
and share your address with us,we'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy, butdon't wait, there's a limited
(58:06):
quantity.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember up.
Culture is still culture, andshouldn't you know what's in
your head?
Hi, I'm Tracy Guy Decker and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts about Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
Today I'll be sharing my deepthoughts about the 1975 classic
Monty Python and the Holy Grailwith my sister, emily Guy Birken
, and with you.
Let's dive in.
(00:21):
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
just pop culture, but othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you knowwhat's worth talking and
thinking about, and so do we.
So come over, think with us aswe delve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Okay, I know you've seen thisfilm.
(00:41):
We've talked about it.
It was released the year beforeI was born, so four years
before you were born.
But tell me sort of what's inyour head about the Holy.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Grail.
So I remember the first time Isaw it.
I'm pretty sure it was thefirst time you saw it too.
It was with our across the hallneighbor.
We all watched it together.
The final three minutes whereit's just a black screen, I
remember all of us going like isthat really it?
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Do we keep it on what's going on?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
So I remember being quite confused by that.
I have a lot of things that arejust in furniture of my mind
from this movie.
I'm not dead yet.
I'm feeling much better.
I feel happy.
The background I talk a lot onthe show about story
construction and creativity andhow things are made, and one of
(01:35):
my favorite things about moviesin particular and anything that
is a collaborative effort ratherthan like a novel, is the happy
accidents that occur.
The wonderful visual gag of thecoconuts came about because I
think no one could ride horsesand they were too expensive, and
(01:58):
so they're like all right, howdo we ride around it?
And they created something thatbecomes a through line through
the film because of the how fastdoes a swallow?
How do the coconuts get here?
All of that.
But it's also just a phenomenaljoke.
It was a happy accident and Iwas delighted by those Then.
The one other thing I can recallwas I saw this film.
(02:21):
I was probably in like fifthgrade.
In about seventh grade I wasreading King Arthur in my
English class.
I think it was Mallory's MortD'Arthur, but I don't remember
exactly.
But it was probably.
I'm sure it was a bridged andsomewhat rewritten for modern
readers, but the fact that theCastle Anthrax scene is canon,
(02:45):
not exactly, but I was readingthat going like they didn't make
that up.
That just shocked me, and myseventh grade English teacher
was one I did not feelcomfortable going to and saying
did you know that?
They put this in my mind and Ikind of looking back.
(03:05):
I wish I had, because I'm surehe would have been delighted to
talk about it with me, but justfor various reasons I did not
feel comfortable talking to him.
But those are kind of thethings that I remember and think
about with Monty Python.
So those are my memories.
Tell me, why are we talkingabout this today?
Speaker 1 (03:26):
So listeners, Emily and I have a list of potential
topics and so recently I've beendoing a lot of really angsty
things that I've been bringing,or Indiana Jones that really
kind of didn't hold up toscrutiny.
And so when I was- reviewing,like scanning the list, and I
was like I need some help withsomething a little lighter, I
(03:47):
need something that is going tobe more fun.
And my eyes lighted on HolyGrail and I was like, yeah,
that's the one, that's the one.
But it was on the list becauseit is so foundational for what I
think is funny.
I think and I know I'm notalone Like so much of
contemporary humor, has MontyPython maybe not this film, but
(04:11):
Monty Python to think?
I've been thinking about itrecently because Michael Palin
or Michael Palin made that cameoin stage.
Oh, yes, yes, michael Sheen,where he gives them a hard time
for all of their improvisation.
He's like no, we wrote scriptsand we perform the scripts, and
(04:31):
he's like kind of a jerk to them.
But I just which I also found-and clearly he's playing a bit.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
He's.
That's not who Michael Palin is.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
It doesn't matter really.
But like and then like and thenMichael Sheen is like but I'm a
fan.
So I felt some like solidaritywith Michael Sheen and anything
that makes me feel like I'm likeMichael Sheen is pretty great,
so so that's how, by the way,monday is going to be Michael
Sheen's.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
February 5th.
It's going to be MichaelSheen's 55th birthday.
So happy, happy, michael, sexmachine birthday for all who
celebrate Sex, my being hismiddle name.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
But the time this air is, it will be past his
birthday.
So happy birthday, michael.
Anyway so that's why it's onthe, it's on the table today and
some of the things I want totalk about.
I want to talk about humor andwhat is funny and why it's funny
and how that subversion ofexpectation is also used to
lampoon societal structureswhich I find really really
(05:34):
fascinating and interesting and,as we always do, I want to talk
about some of the things thatmaybe didn't age as well or are
kind of missing.
So gender we need to talk aboutgender.
I want to talk about thatCastle anthrax scene.
I want to talk about the bloodand gore and filth in this movie
, which I think is also alampooning of the Romanticism of
(05:55):
Arthurian legend.
And then, because of the pastfew years, both John Cleese and
Terry Gilliam have alignedthemselves with transphobes.
Transphobes and and inGilliam's case, actually like
sexual abusers, because he was,he kind of pushed back against
me to very strongly.
(06:16):
I also want to kind of dig in alittle bit to queerness and
depictions of gay men inparticular in this film.
There's not a lot, but there'ssome, and so I'd like to kind of
.
I'd like for us to talk aboutthat a bit.
I'm going to give a very briefsynopsis of the film and
listeners.
I have not seen spam a lot, soI think I need.
(06:38):
I need to say that because thequeerness thing in particular, I
understand, gets, you know,really teased out in greater
depth in spam a lot there's alsolike a whole scene about how,
apparently about how you can'tdo a Broadway show without Jews,
which I am not touching.
I haven't seen it, I can'tspeak to how that's done.
(07:00):
So that's my parenthetical onthis, so I'm not going to give
like the full plot because, tobe honest, the plot such as it
is in my mind is just sort of avehicle for to string together a
series of Monty Python skitsset in the Middle Ages or yeah,
like it's not actually like acohesion.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
You know, the even, even like the Grail quest is
just sort of it's almost like anafterthought.
So but the characters that wemeet?
We have Arthur King of theBritons who is traveling the
land to try and recruit morenights for his round table.
As you mentioned, thisridiculous and just delightfully
(07:45):
funny gag of the, there are nohorses, there's like a servant
behind him with two halves of acoconut, like hitting them
together, like clop, clop, clop,clop, clop, to the sound of
them, which is how in radio,radio shows back in those days,
that was how they created thesound effects, the sound of
horse.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
So like, yeah, they didn't make that up, that came
from.
You know old techniques inradio show days.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
We meet.
The first tonight to join isSir Bedivere, yes, who is very
knowledgeable in science.
We see him kind of helpingtowns.
People walk through the logicof whether or not a woman who
has a carrot tied to her nose isin fact a witch, and she is
based on the like, absolutelyabsurd logic.
(08:35):
So she's first.
And then we also collect SirLancelot, sir Gala had, sir
Robin I think that might be allof the named ones.
They meet God, who is animatedin the clouds, king, who tells
them to go seek the holy grail.
They have lots of adventuresthat are ridiculous and bloody
(08:58):
and filth stained.
There is a killer rabbit.
There's an enchanter who cansummon fire without Flint, who
goes by the name of Tim.
There's Sir Gala had, is seesthe grail above this castle.
He goes in and it turns outit's not there.
(09:20):
That's Castle Anthrax, which ispopulated entirely by women who
are all between the ages of 16and 19 and a half and they are
tempting him.
We also see Sir Robin, who iscowardly and he has minstrels
behind him singing about howcowardly he is, which makes him
very uncomfortable.
We meet the knights who saymeet, which hurts people
(09:40):
apparently.
When you say meet the knightswho say me, apparently, when
they say it it's dangerous,painful, unclear.
Anyway, they send Arthur off ona side quest to go find a
shrubbery, I don't know.
They're doing some landscaping.
We end up on the bridge ofdeath where you have to answer
three questions, which could beas simple as what is your name,
(10:01):
what is your quest, what is yourfavorite color?
Or as complicated as what isthe airspeed philosophy of an
unladen swallow who knowsthere's a castle of Frenchmen
who taunt our heroes quiteviciously that's a lavash.
Come back and I will taunt youa second time.
(10:22):
Meanwhile, we also have like,because this movie is also
lampooning like historicaldocumentaries.
So we have this famoushistorian I'm putting quotes
around famous historian who'stelling us about what's
happening to Arthur and his menand then is killed by one of
them, lancelot, I believe.
And so meanwhile, runningthrough the movie, instead of
(10:44):
the historian as a talking headgiving us commentary, we see the
police investigation of thehistorian's death.
The movie ends when the copsactually catch up with Arthur,
interrupt a huge like, tons ofextras in chain mail attack of
the Frenchmen, again actually totry and get the grail, and then
(11:06):
a policeman or a police officeractually like, puts his hand
over the camera and that's justthe end, as you remember, like
that's the end, which, by theway, these guys were such
geniuses talk about subvertingexpectations.
They were able to do thatbecause they start the movie in
the opening credits with thesewhat appears to be Swedish
(11:29):
subtitles initially of justsubtitles of what we're looking
at and then turn into thisridiculous story.
Like you should come see Sweden, take a look at this and that
and the moose.
And then my sister was bittenby a moose once.
And then it says no, really shewas, but and it's all spelled
in these funny ways, with O's,with the like slashes through
(11:50):
them.
And then that stops, and then weget something where the credits
it says the people responsiblefor the subtitles have been
sacked, and then it comes backin the actual credits with more
stuff about moose, and thenthey're sacked again and it's a
totally different style and nowit's sort of Ecuadorian and it's
all about llamas.
I mean it's ridiculous, butwhile we, the viewer, were busy
(12:12):
like laughing at these jokes inthe subtitles, they got all of
the credits out of the way atthe beginning, so they could
just end it with a black screen.
So which?
So the very first joke and thevery last joke are related,
which I just love that symmetry.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Beautiful construction again.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, really, there's also some animation throughout,
not just the God in the clouds,but then there's sort of
animated sections throughoutthat are again in some cases
advance what little story thereis, and in other cases are just
little vignettes.
That's Terry Gilliam'sanimation.
So that's the background of themovie.
Listeners, if you have not seenthis movie, go watch it.
(12:52):
It's really worth it.
Like I have not done it justice, it is hilarious, I mean just
really really funny, Still eventhese almost 50 years later.
It's very funny.
It's streaming on Netflix, soyou don't have to, it's not hard
to find.
So I actually have a littlelist of things I wanna talk
about.
So I'll start with gender,because we so often start with
(13:12):
gender.
This thing does not pass theback down test.
There are more than one namedfemale characters, but they only
speak about men.
Well, zoot tells one of theother sisters in the castle,
anthrax, to go prepare, preparesa room or something, but it's
for Gala Head.
(13:32):
So, yeah, I'm counting it astalking about men.
So it doesn't pass the Bechteltest.
And that scene which I wannahear more about the canon
version of this, because thatscene Gala Head sumbles into
this castle, which we learnlater that they kind of lured
(13:53):
him there, but I don't even knowwhat to do about that.
So we've got this spokespersonher name is Zoot, played by
Carol Cleveland, who you justlet me know was a regular guest
with the pythons, and she'strying to keep him there and
(14:14):
keeps telling him about how softand nice their beds are and how
wonderful they are.
She's the one it's her voicethat says that they're all 16 to
19 and a half.
He ends up in a bedroom withtwo doctors.
Well, they've had basic medicaltraining.
He's injured on his thigh andthey're undressing him and he's
(14:34):
like there's no need for that.
He's pushing away.
They're clearly going for hiscrotch and he's like there's
nothing wrong with that andthey're like we are doctors.
Anyway, he runs away from thattemptation, runs back into Zoot,
who's not Zoot, she's Zoot'sidentical twin.
We realize that Zoot has luredhim there with the grail-shaped
(14:56):
beacon and she must be punished.
You must strap her to the bed,galahad, and give her a thorough
spanking.
And after that's done, you'llspank me.
And then all the girls there's,like you know, 20 or 30 girls
in these white robes, and me andme and me, they're all gonna be
spanked.
And then she says and after thespanking, the oral sex.
(15:17):
And just as she says that,lancelot rushes in to save
Galahad from certain temptation.
And Galahad's like no, no, letme face the peril.
Lancelot and the other oneother night like drag Galahad
away.
And as they're leaving CastleAnthrax, galahad says to
Lancelot something like bet yourgay.
And that's why he got draggedaway from the certain peril,
(15:40):
which was oral sex.
So this scene when I was a kid,it made me uncomfortable and
I'm not even sure I understoodwhy when I was, you know, when
we first watched it and my kidwatched this movie fairly
recently, like within the pasttwo years or so, and I remember
sort of not knowing how tohandle it, like I knew if I like
(16:02):
fast forwarded through it orsomething, she would just go
back and watch it to see what Ihad kept from her, so I just let
it go and decided to answerquestions if they came up.
But the whole treatment of it isjust awkward to me as a viewer
now, like it's such wishfulfillment like dudes wish
fulfillment that it doesn'tactually.
(16:23):
It's not funny to me.
It doesn't subvert expectation,it's just like oh yeah, this is
a male fantasy.
I think that's part of it.
But I'd love to hear from you,since you brought that up when
you were like here's thefurniture of my mind Like I'd
love to hear from you more aboutyour thoughts on that scene in
particular.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
The one aspect once I was old enough to understand
what oral sex was, because thefirst time I saw it didn't know
what they were talking about.
Likewise, Because the way thesewomen are acting towards
Gallagher my headcanon was hewas going to perform it on them.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
When I watched it just this morning, I actually
thought, maybe that I actuallyhad that same.
I was like, oh, maybe thatwhich I prefer.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yes, and so for part of the reason and I know I was
not able to articulate this at12 or 13, part of the reason why
I was so surprised that this isactually part of the King
Arthur canon is because it feelslike I was thinking of it as a
subversion of what is expectedof women, and so that there are
(17:34):
these women in white who aresupposed to be virtuous and who
all they can think about is sex.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Right, right, they definitely are meant to be
virginal in all of what thatmeans.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Yes, Culturally, yeah .
So finding out that it was inthe canon surprised the hell out
of me.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
What happens in the?
Can you give us the not tellyou don't remember.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yeah, I couldn't tell you the specifics.
It does not get into thedetails like this, but it is.
Gallagher ends up at thiscastle.
There's only women there, youngwomen there, who all appear in
white virtuous stuff like that,and they tempt him.
The specific temptations I amsure were not spoken of.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Spanking and sex.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Yeah, but it was clear that it was because
Gallagher was coded as sexuallypure in a way that none of the
other planets are yeah.
So this was testing his purity.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
You always have something to be younger right?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
I don't remember.
Oh, okay, sorry doesn't matter.
So the thing that got me is likeand again, I'm telling you,
this is not stuff I could havearticulated back then and I'm
only really starting to likecollate these ideas in my head
right now but I thought thatthis was subversive because
that's not something that wouldoccur in the original mythology
(19:00):
and it was about like, yeah,don't assume that women are one
thing.
Finding out that it was part ofthe original mythology actually
shows me that this is.
It's not subverting anything,because women are always put in
a binary of one thing or another, and so the subversion that
(19:20):
they look virginal but they arevoracious is not a subversion at
all.
And it's in some ways kind ofreminds me of you know how they
talk about how right-wingcomedians only have one joke,
like, yeah, I identify as a milkbottle.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Now, yeah, I can't even imagine that joke, uh-huh.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
It reminds me of, like the subversion of, like
this sweet, innocent girl who'sreally voracious, is the same
sort of joke that you see overand over and over and, over and
over and over again.
So that's where I land withthis.
The other thing, as youmentioned, carol Cleveland plays
Zoot, and her identical twinsister, carol Cleveland, I
(20:02):
believe, appeared in pretty muchevery episode of Flying Circus.
She was a regular collaboratorwith the pythons but she was
almost exclusively used as a sexobject whenever she was in
there, and she's a very talentedcomedian.
She has, like, excellent timing.
She has.
I don't know if she was in anyway part of the writing process,
I suspect not.
(20:23):
And she is gorgeous.
I mean, she's a beautiful woman.
So, you know, considering thefact that the pythons would
dress as women for lampooningdifferent aspects of femininity,
I kind of understand, like,okay, we need someone who looks
hot, we'll use Carol.
So if this were a movie thatwas directed, written, made by
(20:44):
women, this scene, well, for onething, the 16th and 19 and a
half Now, granted, 50 years ago,that joke was fine.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I mean I guess, so I don't know 16?
Come on.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
I know it was common is the thing it was very common
In, I think, Annie Hall.
There's a scene where WoodyAllen's character in an
emergency needs to get picked upat the airport or something by
a friend of his and his friendis complaining because he had
twin 16 year olds at home withhim.
(21:21):
Can you imagine themathematical possibilities
available to me?
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Well, yeah, okay, okay, and like I don't think
Woody Allen should be our role.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Oh gosh, no Like ultimately appropriate regarding
young girls, Like he goes bad.
I'm not saying that that isculturally appropriate.
What I'm saying is that it wasaccepted by people as like, oh,
that's a joke.
Yeah, If you know what I mean.
So anyway, that scene, the ideaof voracious women and a
(21:51):
nervous man as a kid I saw thatas like women taking control of
their sexuality in a way thatI've seen in me.
Uncomfortable, but not in alike I wish it weren't.
In this movie scene it was morejust like this is too grown up
for me.
And then, as I got older, Iappreciated it.
I appreciated the idea thatthese women have this agency,
(22:16):
the sexual agency that makesGalhatt uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
It's interesting that , oh sorry.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
But it's all part and parcel, because King Arthur is
a very Christian myth.
It's all part and parcel of theidea that women cause good men
to stumble.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
It's interesting, though another wrinkle on this
scene in this movie is that atone point, when we meet the
identical twin sister, who'salso played by Carol Cleveland,
one of the things that she sortof breaks the fourth wall and
says I really like this scene,I'm really enjoying this scene,
this scene is going really,really well, and then we see we
(22:52):
cut to like all the othercharacters at one point or
another, going get on with it,including like the huge field of
extras from the very finalscene yelling from a distance
get on with it, which issubversive of the medium because
, it breaks the fourth wall andthen has characters from who are
(23:16):
not in the scene kind ofcommenting on the scene and also
is like a little subversive ofwhat you're talking about right
now, because the woman is like,yeah, this is cool, I'm digging
this, and everybody else is likeall right, already.
Right, like get to the sex orwhatever.
(23:36):
I'm not actually sure that isin fact.
I think that's, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
That is not an uncommon Python joke, in like
the breaking the fourth wall,yeah, that kind of.
Get on with that thing.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah, and I mean the breaking of the fourth wall,
it's almost not.
I mean, when she says I reallylike the scene, it's almost like
a meta commentary on what we'rewatching.
Like there's one scene whereBedivere and Arthur meet with
this like really wild lookingold man who's meant to be
somehow magical, which is justcalled scene 24.
And in fact we see like there'sthe conceit of this like
(24:12):
illustrated manuscript, thatkind of shows that pages turn
throughout and it says scene 24in this.
You know very flowerycalligraphy, so that kind of
thing also, which I don't, it'snot quite breaking the fourth
wall, like right, like FleabagPhoebe Waller-Bridges when she
talks to the camera, to methat's quintessential breaking
(24:33):
the fourth wall.
She's talking to me directly,that's not quite what's
happening.
It's more of like a almost likean anachronistic meta
commentary on what we'rewatching.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
I don't know what that's called.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
So, anyway, castle Anthrax scene stood out to me in
the rewatch as one that like,unlike others, that I can dig
into and have deep thoughtsabout, and I'm like, oh yeah,
look at this kind of Marxistcommentary on power, this one,
I'm like I don't quite knowwhere you're going with this.
And I'm not, I don't know.
It just left me kind of alittle squiggy, maybe in part
(25:07):
because there's almost no womenin the movie at all, and then
these are so hyper sexualized.
So anyway, that's all I have tosay really about.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Castle Anthrax, I will say and this is not
necessarily true of all of thepythons, but I don't know that
the pythons in generalnecessarily have a great track
record for treating women likepeople.
For example, there is a like acompilation thing that I think
it's on Netflix, of I think allthe Python stuff is on Netflix.
(25:43):
There's a compilation of eachpythons greatest hits and each
one has that Python do like asof when it was recorded, which
is, I think, about 20 years ago,but still, you know, several,
many years on from when theFlying Circus was on, do an
introduction, and Eric Idle'sintroduction includes scantily
clad women for no reasonwhatsoever.
(26:04):
The other I've been thinkingabout this recently my husband
and I watched Brazil, which is aTerry Gilliam film that I don't
know if you remember watchingit with dad, yeah, dad loved it.
We should put that on the list.
We should put that on the list,and Gilliam's goal with that
film was to create a movie wherethe happy ending is the main
(26:25):
character going completely madand so he's living in his own
delusions.
There is the point where youcan tell that he's in his own
delusions.
You know he gets this likewonderful happy ending with the
woman that he's been in lovewith the whole time.
When I watched it again, mostrecently the 12 hours before, in
the film, this woman who he'sbeen obsessed with, who has
every time she's seen him beenlike get away from me, you're
(26:49):
awful, I don't want anything todo with you Seeks him out, puts
on because she's got very shortblonde hair.
She puts on this wig and a likea white nightgown and he has
like fixed things so that she islegally dead and she's like how
do you feel about necrophilia?
And they make love.
And watching it this time I waslike that is so gross because
(27:13):
she is not interested in him.
She would not see him out.
There's absolutely no reasonfor any of this.
And so in my head, canon whichI don't believe is what Tara
Gilliam intended is that that ispart of his delusion, like he's
already been captured, andbecause that is the only way for
that to be okay for me, becauseshe is acting completely and
it's all wish fulfillment.
That's something that I havehad to come considering how much
(27:37):
I love Money Python that issomething I've had to come to
terms with over the years isrealizing like they're gonna
look at me and see boobs.
If I'm lucky at this point,they're gonna look at me and see
nothing.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
So I do think related to that, considering the fact
that the punchline kind of asLancelot gets Gal had out of
there is Gal had saying I betyou're gay.
I do think it's interesting totalk about queerness, and
particularly since, before westarted recording, I mentioned
to you, which you did not know,graham Chapman, who plays King
(28:11):
Arthur and who is the most likeHollywood handsome of all of the
pythons, so he often played theprotagonist was gay and I
believe at the time of thismovie he was out to the pythons.
As I mentioned to Tracy beforewe started recording, I believe
it was John Cleese, but I mightbe misremembering, it might have
been Michael Palin was talkingabout, because Chapman passed
(28:33):
away in the 80s, was talkingabout after his death, saying
like when he came out to thepythons he wasn't upset but he
was shocked, but not in a badway, just in the way that like
it just didn't fit with what heknew of this person, because it
never occurred to him that hecould be gay and the example he
gave is like it would be as ifhe told me that he were Chinese.
(28:54):
That had never occurred to me,anyway.
So but in that way, to say likeit is something that is very
different from my knowledge ofthe world, but I recognize that
exists and I don't have anynegative stereotypes about it.
I just don't understand it.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah.
So let's talk about queernessin this film, though.
So the early ish in the filmthey say they're gonna go to, so
before cancel castle anthrax,they say they're gonna go, he
has all the nights and they'regonna go to Camelot.
So they get to Camelot andthey're outside the doors and
are outside the castle.
They're looking up this biggiant castle which is only a
(29:31):
model one of the series.
That's what I said.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
And-.
And isn't it Patsy who tells us?
Speaker 1 (29:36):
I think it is Patsy.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
It's definitely one of the series.
Yeah, and I think Patsy isTerry Gilliam.
I believe, but I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
And then we cut to what's happening inside Camelot,
and that's sort of what I thinkof as Spamalot it's a bunch of
men in chain mail singing anddancing like rockettes style.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
We like to push the pramalot.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
That's the final line .
Yeah, so, and we see this scenewith them dancing and on tables
and accidentally kickingservants as they walk by.
It was just really reallyabsurd and ridiculous Rhyming
with Camelot.
So we eat ham and jam, a lotand stuff like that.
And on this rewatch I noticedthat one of the lyrics near the
(30:21):
end of the song, the finalstanza, is in World War, tough
Enable, quite indifatigable.
Between our quests, we seek toinvest and impersonate Clark
Gable.
It's a busy life in Camelot.
That's the final stanza beforeI have to push the pramalot.
So that line between our quests, we seek to invest and
(30:44):
impersonate Clark Gable isclearly queer coding of these
dancing and singing nights.
After that scene, 30 secondsafter that line is sung, arthur
shakes his head and says youknow what?
Let's not go to Camelot.
It's very silly, to your pointabout, it's just outside of the,
it's not like let's not gothere.
(31:06):
There's no, there's a slur usedright, they just say it's silly
.
And silly is an adjective thatapplies to the pythons always.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Always yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
So there's that.
The other example of queernessin this film is, you know, fast
forward, we meet Herbert and theSwamp King.
So Herbert's about to bemarried, he's the prince of the
swamp and he's gonna be marriedto a woman who has huge tracts
(31:39):
of land and he does not want tobe married.
He's very effeminate,definitely meant to be read as
gay, shoots an arrow out thewindow with a note that says
please save me on being forcedto marry against my will, which
Lancelot retrieves and believesis a princess.
So Lancelot like barges intothe swamp castle and kills
(32:00):
anybody in his way, includingthe father of the bride, and
like wedding guests.
And you know, I mean it's gory,it's horrible, like leading to,
and then he finds Herbert inthe tallest tower and is like oh
, sorry, sorry, sorry, like thisdeadpan.
So part of the joke was thissort of deadpan, sorry, sorry.
(32:21):
Part of it was, you know,lampooning the chivalry as an
excuse for psychopathic behavior.
But Herbert was also, I think,a butt of the joke.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Especially in so far as he's like I'm ready, like,
like, let's escape Lancelot.
And he, like, throws the hemade a rope out of sheets or
something and he starts to climbout the window and the dad
realizes that Lancelot's fromCamelot and like, cuts the rope
like to let his son fall to hisdeath.
So Herbert is not unsympathetic, but he's a joke and he's
(33:01):
definitely meant to be read as agay man.
So it feels a little gray to meNow, remembering that this is
50 years ago.
It doesn't feel culturallyinappropriate, homophobic, if
you know what I mean.
Like for the time, but itdoesn't feel good in 2024.
How about that?
Speaker 2 (33:20):
It's also interesting that Lancelot is played by John
Cleese, who we talked a littlebit about, how he and Terry
Gilliam in particular have beenreally disappointing in terms of
transphobia and in terms ofvery progressive views.
So one of the jokes is like soHerbert's father cuts the rope
(33:40):
and then he, like Lancelot, islike, oh, I'm sorry about all
the dead people.
And Herbert's father is like ah, come, let's have a beer or
something like that.
I mean like they clearly arelike oh, you're a good one,
You're a good one, you know,they recognize like to like in
that.
And so there is a bit of thesatire and the lampooning of the
(34:01):
fact that people are willing toaccept awful behavior from
people they recognize as beinglike them.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
And there was also a lampooning of capitalism in that
, because the Swamp.
King is very interested in realestate.
I mean like it's really aboutmoney for him.
This marriage from thebeginning is about money.
Part of his appreciation forLancelot is in fact Camelot and
how valuable that land is.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
And I recognize that like it's a both end, because
there is definitely a lampooningof, like the chivalry, like
you're talking about theviolence, that you're talking
about the even.
Like the arranged marriages,how they're not good for anyone
in the way that we knew them inEurope.
(34:48):
I know that there are culturesthat have arranged marriages.
Where they are they work reallywell, but in this sort of like
consolidating land, I havenothing to do with, I think,
marriages arranged for power.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
I can say without hesitation that's not a good
thing.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Yeah, they're bad for everyone.
So other other types ofarranged marriages I think can
certainly work.
But the ones where it's likeit's about power and it doesn't
actually have to do withcompatibility or anything, it's
not going to be good.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Not about as best for the two people getting married,
but for their families power.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yes, yes.
So like there's, all of that isin there, but then it's also
like Herbert doesn't get to live, you know, and we're supposed
to be okay with that, yeah.
And granted, like yeah granted,it's not like this movie has
like heroes, exactly Like wefollow King Arthur and the
(35:45):
Knights all throughout and atthe end they're they're arrested
, right.
So like it's, and becausethey've done something awful,
right.
But in every joke there's akernel of truth, or a kernel of
belief, but rather than truth ofbelief.
So, which is why, like therepeated right wing joke of like
(36:09):
oh, I identify as a fighter jetis what I mean.
It's not funny, and theybelieve that they are lampooning
something when all they'redoing is repeating bigotry.
So in jokes that work, you canboth be lampooning something and
be perpetuating unconsciousbiases.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Which could be bigoted Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
So let's talk about lampooning then.
So there's, I was doing alittle bit of reading this
morning and there's actually itwas the year before I was born,
and so my really comprehensionof the culture, the zeitgeist,
is historical.
The person that was readingthis morning was talking about
like post-Vietnam, post-nixonera.
(36:57):
There's, there's somelampooning of that reality, like
the result of that reality,lampooning power and war.
This person was saying that thewhen Arthur faces the black
night, and Arthur ends up likecutting off all four of the
man's limbs, and he's still likecome back, I'll bleed.
You know, come back, I'll biteyour kneecaps off.
And you know, arthur's likewhat are you going to do?
(37:17):
Bleed on me.
And this person was like thatis kind of the experience of the
US and Vietnam, like the muchgreater military power, not
understanding why the other sidewouldn't just give up.
If that is there, miss it Still, don't I just going to have to
take this person's word for it.
What I do see, though I don'tneed to know the zeitgeist in
(37:40):
order to see the real take downof power and what you know, sort
of the idea of a meritocracyand like what power is you know,
when Arthur, one of the veryfirst scenes with anybody else.
Arthur, like calls, actuallycalls Michael Palin old woman,
(38:01):
and he's like I'm not a woman.
He says sorry, old man.
He says I'm 37.
Well, I can't just call you man?
Well, call me Dennis.
Anyway.
Dennis says to Arthur like well, who made you King?
Why are you King?
And he's like well, the lady ofthe lake gave me Excalibur.
He says you know random womenin bodies of water, and handing
(38:24):
out swords is not a way toestablish power and authority.
And it's funny as heck.
And there's also something likedeeply powerful and true in the
like questioning where doesauthority come from?
Speaker 2 (38:44):
and why do?
Speaker 1 (38:45):
we allow folks to wield it.
So I think, that's reallyinteresting and powerful and
that was something that,watching it now with these eyes
for our project, I was likeright on.
You know like that's actuallyvery cool, that that's a part of
it.
And so lampooning power andauthority, lampooning sort of
(39:10):
the entitlement that you know,arthur's so impressed with his
own kingship.
He said I'm king of the Britonsand the people that he's
talking to are like what's aBritain?
We're all Britons.
They don't care about nationstates and boundaries and
(39:32):
whatever, they're just trying tomake living.
And there was something reallyalmost charming about that line
of humor.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Do you think, because I have always felt that that's
undercut in a little bit by whenDennis starts explaining how
they self-govern and he's likewe're a board that changes every
other week and going into likeextreme detail of something that
would be very difficult tomaintain, that's an interesting
(40:03):
point.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Possibly, possibly.
I don't actually think what hedescribes is completely
unreasonable.
I mean, it was a very frequentand maybe this is just revealing
how left-wing radical I am.
It didn't sound actually thatabsurd to me.
It sounded very part of thatmoment of Dennis explaining what
(40:24):
they do to govern wasoverwhelming Arthur, who is not
that bright a bulb.
That was more of.
My takeaway was that Arthur'sjust not that bright and so
those details were.
He just became sort of deer inthe headlights, like stop
talking.
Because he just doesn't get it,which is part of it, and you may
(40:50):
be right that the writers werealso sort of lampooning radical
lefties like me, but Arthur'snot.
I mean his right to kingship,even.
He even has God talk to himdirectly, but it's still kind of
absurd.
Perhaps it was a suggestionthat, like all forms of
government are subject toabsurdity.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
The other aspect of that scene is when he gets
frustrated at Dennis and startslike manhandling him and Dennis
is going help, help, I'm beingoppressed.
I took that as also like kindof the center right view of
people on the left let's talkabout like microaggressions or
things like that.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Oh, I don't know, I didn't take it that way at all.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
It works.
Arthur's gonna I mean, whoknows what Arthur's gonna do,
but he's.
He is putting hands on him andis like dragging him away from
the dirt farming he's doing, andDennis, like kind of yelling,
like the other folks in thefield, start coming over and
Arthur leaves him alone.
I didn't read it that way.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
I always took it as the movie saying that Dennis is
overreacting, but I like yourinterpretation better.
I'll have to rewatch it withthat in mind, because I have I
don't know, maybe I'm justwatched it with a very cynical
eye.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
You could be right.
That is not the way that I readit, in part because Dennis's
whole like a woman handingweaponry out from a lake is not
a way to govern.
It's like so concisely said andperfect.
Yeah, true.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
That you know my lefty heart is like right on
Dennis, and so maybe that's myunconscious bias.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Yeah, that's so.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
I certainly didn't read it.
I did not read it that way.
I read that actually as Arthurbeing overwhelmed by the, by the
perspective.
The details of real governingand the perspective of Dennis,
like sort of calling him out forhis bad behavior.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
You know it's interesting.
So both of my boys are reallyinto fantasy right now.
They like fantasy novels andthey're watching TV shows, and
so they'll.
They'll tell me about stufflike, yeah, and that's how you
know, this kid became king andlike, in some ways, like I'm
perfectly glad to be doing this.
In other ways I'm like I'm I'mruining their childhood before
they're even out of it.
I was like, really the best wayto choose a leader I think he's
(43:05):
going to be, you know, any goodat doing that?
Speaker 1 (43:08):
You know.
So one more point on this, andthen we should probably think
about wrapping up, because we'vebeen talking for a minute.
But on this point in the columnof the movie makers are kind of
on Dennis's side, possibly.
I want to talk about Bedivereand knowledge in general.
Mm, hmm, right, so in the witchtrial scene, which is
(43:29):
absolutely ridiculous, just aslike actual witch trials were
just as ridiculous- it's notthat far off.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
I mean, they actually would throw them in the water
to see if they.
If they sunk, then that meansthat they were human, and if
they didn't, then that meantthey were a witch.
So it didn't matter, you weredead either way.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
Right.
So the absurdity is is not faroff right from and Terry Jones
was in fact a medievalist thatsort of lampooning of knowledge
and science, because Arthur andBedivere refer to one another as
men of science, right, mm, hmm,and.
And then Bedivere just keepsmessing it up.
(44:07):
Right, like with the Frenchman,they build a Trojan rabbit, and
then Bedivere is explaining howthe.
After the rabbit gets pulledinside the French castle,
bedivere is like, yeah, afternightfall, then Lancelot and
Galahad and I will jump out ofthe rabbit.
He as the smartest one islampooned again and again which
(44:28):
I think is kind of a mark in thecolumn of Dennis being just
smarter than Arthur in his likeI'm being oppressed kind of a
thing.
I wouldn't die on this hill, butI would offer it as an
interpretation.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
What I'm wondering about and this is like thinking
about something that was made in1975 and 2024, but in the past
25 years, definitely.
I know that you and I have seenthe erosion of trust in experts
and so the lampooning ofsomeone who is an expert.
(45:04):
It hits oddly.
Now, that's not to say thatthere aren't idiots who are
experts, and knowledge is notalways beneficial.
When knowledge is based on, youknow, bad faith and bad science
and is unwilling to questionitself is really what it comes
down to Just knowing thepolitical leanings of at least
(45:25):
two of the pythons.
Now it's something that Iwonder about Now.
Terry Jones.
He passed away a couple, threeyears ago and I remember being
really sad about it, the waythat when he died, I saw someone
on Twitter say like yeah, he'sone of the few pythons who
hasn't tripped over his own dicklately.
Terry Jones and Michael Palinare the two pythons who
(45:48):
consistently seem to be goodguys, or they at least know to
keep their mouth shut.
Yeah yeah, yeah, it's not thesame thing.
Not the same thing, but that'sone of the things that
infuriates me about John Cleeseand Terry Gilliam is like I have
such reverence for your work.
(46:08):
If you just shut the fuck up,you can hold onto that reverence
for your work without feelingconflicted about it and like
because nobody asked you.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really none of your
business.
I think that's a very goodpoint.
And there's something going onin this movie about the idea of
experts and knowledge and sortof.
There's something about theentitlement of the Knights that
I do think is intentionallybeing lampooned, which is not
the same as expertise and sortof fake news ideas.
(46:40):
Because, like when Arthur firstmeets, like the very first cast
that he comes to, and he's likeyou don't even have a horse,
you're hitting coconuts together.
Where did you even get thecoconuts?
It's a tropical.
And then, like Arthur rides I'mputting quotes like that rides
away with Patsy, while thoseguys are still arguing about how
two swallows maybe could carry,like they're trying to do the
(47:05):
physics and the biology and themath to determine whether or not
swallows could carry a coconutfrom warmer climbs, which Arthur
thinks is ridiculous, it'sabsurd in wasting his time, but
actually is what saves Arthur inthe end, because he knows that
there's such a thing as anAfrican and a European swallow.
(47:26):
So there's something, there's aproblematization, there's
something going on about sort ofknowledge who keeps it, what
the entitlement is like, who'sentitled to knowledge, what is
useful knowledge?
I do think that there arequestions being suggested in
there which is more complicatedthan just a sort of that expert
(47:49):
is inconvenient.
I'm not interested in thatexpertise because it counters my
worldview which is what I seein sort of right wing lampooning
and erosion of expertise.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
It's also interesting because we are firmly on the
side of the witch in that scenethe so-called witch, and the
fact that no one will listen toher because she's a woman, the
fact that one of the heraccusers is clearly lying, like
she turned me into a noot, andhe's clearly not a noot well, I
got better.
So we are being shown thatknowledge being used to deny
(48:28):
someone's humanity and likeknowledge, as my 10 year old
says, quotation marks.
So anytime he uses fingerquotes, he's like did you see my
quotation marks, mom?
I wanna make sure you saw myquotation marks.
It's adorable.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Anyway.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
I think that that's also interesting and adds to
like.
There is also this sense oflike, positioning modern people
against the like man.
Weren't they dumb back in themiddle ages?
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Yes, that is definitely happening.
That's what, and that's whatDennis does actually.
Yes, yeah, there's definitelyan anachronistic piece of it as
well.
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
There was a study a long time ago well, I say a long
time, like 15, 20 years agoabout what kind of humor each
country finds the funniest, andso, like they had different
jokes, I could not tell you thejoke for the UK.
In France, the joke that theyfound funniest was a dog goes
(49:28):
into a telegraph office and saysI wanna send a telegram.
And they're like okay, what doyou want it to say?
Woof, woof, woof, woof, woof.
And the telegraph operator sayswell, you know, for just five
cents more you could do two morewoofs.
And the dog says that would beridiculous.
So that's the French idea ofhumor.
(49:49):
In America it's man calls 911,911 operator says okay, what's
your emergency?
Like, oh, I'm out hunting withmy friend and I accidentally
shot him.
And so the 911 operator says,okay, well, can you go check and
make sure?
Is he dead?
The operator hears a gunshotwound or a gunshot go off and
(50:10):
the guy comes back and he's likeokay, he's definitely dead.
Now what?
Now what?
Speaker 1 (50:13):
That's what.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
Americans think is funny.
Ew, ew, ew.
I know, I know I so much preferthe woof, woof, woof.
The analysis that I read saidthat Americans find things that
make them feel superior, funny,and that's a very common aspect
of humor.
That joke allows you to feelsuperior to the accidental and
then intentional shooter and the911 operator for speaking so
(50:38):
poorly.
I would love to and I'll see ifI can find the studies find out
what the UK is.
That British humor tends to bea little more absurdist than
American humor, but not quite asabsurdist as woof, woof, woof,
woof.
French humor, I think, tends tobe incomprehensible to most
English speakers.
Speaker 1 (50:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
So, anyway, that is one aspect of it as well, which
is why I think part of thereason why it appeals to
American audiences is we get tobe like we're so much smarter
than those stupid middle agespeople.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Apparently, Cleese has said that life of Brian is
actually their most popular filmin the UK and the Holy Grail is
the most popular amongAmericans.
Oh, that's interesting yeah yeah, Okay, we've been talking for
over an hour, so let me see if Ican give some salient points
and then we can wrap up.
(51:31):
So Monty Python and the HolyGrail still hilarious almost 50
years later, so so funny.
It is funny because it subvertsour expectations.
That's where the humor comes inand that's also where the
social commentary comes in.
There's some weirdness aroundexpectations that are subverted,
(51:51):
that are and aren't that betray, unconscious bias, especially
around gender and women'ssexuality, with the Castle
Anthrax scene, and around gaymen, in particular with poor
Herbert.
Though it's not cut and dried,this is not a black and white
sort of like.
This is homophobic.
It's much more nuanced thanthat and complicated, which
(52:14):
makes sense for this troupe ofcomedians.
This thing doesn't pass theBechdel test.
There's some disagreement, evenbetween you and me, about
whether or not the lampooning ofthe divine right of kings with
a sort of Marxist leftist formof government is in fact, also
lampooning that Marxist leftistgovernment.
(52:35):
Maybe.
I'm not 100% sure.
It has been revealed that atleast two of the pythons who are
still living are a little bitmore products of their time than
I would have liked, especiallyaround oh, what I've expected.
Yeah, yeah, especially aroundtransgender issues, Also women
(52:56):
being treated as humans.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
The Castle Anthrax scene is improved if you assume
that the oral sex is going to bereceived by the women rather
than given.
Yeah, I agree, which honestlyis the only way that makes sense
, considering there's like 20women and one man and one of you
.
Speaker 1 (53:15):
yeah, agreed, yeah, yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely
.
There's an interesting thingthat this movie does that is not
quite breaking the fourth wall.
It's kind of in that directionbecause it's like a meta
commentary upon the medium.
Where we see this is scene 24,where the Arthur and his knights
escape from a monster becausethe cartoonist dies.
Speaker 2 (53:39):
The illustrator died.
The animator dies.
Speaker 1 (53:42):
So things like that, and we also have that weird, not
weird that fascinating mix oftimelines where the movie ends
because Arthur's arrested Again.
It's not a breaking of thefourth wall, but it is playing
with the medium and with theconceit of what it is that we're
watching the use of thecoconuts as just such a perfect
(54:04):
example of happy accidents andallowing limitations to set you
free with your creativity.
And also sort of using the useof the credits and the subtitles
and the jokes in the subtitlesso that the end can be that like
wait, are we done?
So?
That is another example of likeusing the medium itself to tell
(54:26):
a joke and a subversion ofexpectations that way, so that's
also worth noting.
Speaker 2 (54:32):
That's why they're brilliant.
I mean, they really, really arebrilliant.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
They truly are so products of their time, no doubt
, and also just really, reallybrilliant.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
And also Carol Cleveland appreciation.
Yes, I want to.
For those of you listening, gowatch anything the Python's did
and she will be there when theywere still Python's.
I mean, like once they're doingindividual projects, no, and
she's phenomenal and does notget enough credit.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
Probably didn't do it , justice.
Go watch it.
Share your thoughts with us.
What did I miss?
Like what is brilliant orproblematic or insightful, or
just what's your favorite bit,because there are so many, so
many funny things Let us knowwhat.
What is it about the Holy Grailthat you want to make sure that
(55:24):
you know?
We know that you're thinkingabout.
You can let us know via email,guygirlsmediacom.
Go to the listeners forum onour website I'll put a link in
the show notes or just go toguygirlsmediacom.
Sign up for our emails and youcan reply to one of our emails.
Sign up at guygirlsmediacom forour emails.
(55:45):
We send emails every week.
Oh, I need to send one today.
Find us on social media.
We send emails every week.
If you really love us, we loveyou too.
Please come and be a patron.
Be a patron.
It helps make this possible.
Please, please, join our family.
I guess that's enough of acommercial for us.
So next time, m, it's supposedto be your turn, but actually
(56:06):
we're gonna have a guest.
So Jonathan Shore is a friendof mine and a retired media
studies professor, and he'sgonna come talk to us about
reporters and journalism in popculture.
I'm not sure which film he'sgonna lead with, but I'm pretty
excited to hear what he has tosay.
So that'll be next time, andthen we'll go back to our
(56:28):
regularly scheduled alternatingsisters after that, and in the
meantime, I think you have somelistener comments.
Speaker 2 (56:38):
I do.
I have some fun listenercomments.
One is from Ava who, onlistening to our episode about
Willy Wonka and the ChocolateFactory, said I thought the
white savior stuff you weretalking about with the little
bloompas was satire.
But I guess I never reallyanalyzed any of the rest of the
movies.
And she has a smiley face.
I'll have to go back and watchit now.
Then one day later I got thismessage from Ava oh my God, jake
(57:02):
, who's Ava's husband, showed mepictures from the original book
and she has a shocked face.
Probably not satire, yikes,yeah, yeah.
So.
And then I got another greatcomment from Malia on how we
have realized that we have thistendency to ruin our own
(57:23):
childhoods with this project,and she explains the moment in
Gremlins where she says atChristmas, some people are
opening presents and others areopening their wrists.
That was not what I remembered,so I have not seen Gremlins
since childhood.
Me neither.
Speaker 1 (57:40):
We should put it on the list.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
It's apparently.
It is even darker than.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
I remember.
Thanks, malia.
Okay, well, I look forward toseeing you next time.
Do you like stickers?
Sure, we all do.
If you head over toguygirlsmediacom, slash, sign up
and share your address with us,we'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy, butdon't wait, there's a limited
(58:06):
quantity.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember up.
Culture is still culture, andshouldn't you know what's in
your head?
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