February 13, 2024 • 51 mins
Let’s do the time warp agaaaaaain! (Except with ongoing enthusiastic consent this time, mkay?)
This week, Emily and Tracie talk aboutthe beloved 1975 film Rocky Horror Picture Show. From its influence on culture, fashion, music, and film to its catchy AF songs, there’s a lot to love in this genre-bending gender-bending mashup of B horror/sci fi, musical theater, drag culture, and comedy. But despite Rocky Horror’s important strides forward for LGBTQ acceptance, there’s some ugly (and period appropriate) disregard for consent.
Listen in as Emily and Tracie revisit this favorite of their high school years–at the late night, double feature, picture show!
CW: Discussions of in-film scenes featuring dubious (at best) consent.
Mentioned in this episode:
https://aninjusticemag.com/gently-ripping-apart-the-rocky-horror-picture-show-ce2ff8022e60
https://www.tor.com/2012/10/31/the-astonishingly-sensical-plot-of-the-rocky-horror-picture-show/
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Emily Guy-Burkin and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I will bediscussing the 1975 classic
Rocky Horror Picture Show withmy sister, tracy Guy-Dekker, and
with you, let's dive in OofY'all.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
we had some serious technical difficulties while
recording this episode.
I think we pulled it off in theedit, but if you notice
something weird, like maybewe're not quite in sync with one
another at a certain points,that's what happened.
Thanks for your patience.
I think it's worth a listen.
Anyway, have you ever hadsomething you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture,what others might deem stupid
(00:47):
shit?
You know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about, and so do we.
So come over, think with us aswe delve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
So Trace, this is another piece of media that
either of us could bleed on andI am absolutely certain you saw
this before I did, although itcame out before either of us
were born.
But tell me what you know aboutRocky Horror Picture Show, what
you remember about it, how youwere introduced to it, that sort
of thing.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
So I first saw it.
They did they actually showedit on broadcast TV when I was
maybe 16, but, like withcommentary.
So they'd like cut away to likethe audience, because I guess
it was filmed at one of the, youknow, live presentations and so
they'd like cut away to theaudience for some of the most
(01:39):
racy parts, although the wholething's pretty racy, and here's
the kicker.
I watched it with dad.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
I had no idea, oh goodness.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, that was an awkward 90 minutes.
My recollection is sitting in,you know, in his living room on
Olmstead Road and like beinglike oh, I didn't know it was a
Frankenstein story.
And then like being like really, really grateful for the
(02:15):
cutaways to like the audiencelike throwing toast or whatever
they were doing.
But I loved it.
I mean, even in that awkward,weird broadcast TV edited
version, I absolutely loved it.
And so, because of seeing itthat way, I somehow acquired a
VHS which is maybe how you sawit Probably and watched it over
(02:41):
and over and over again andbought.
I had the CD, I had thesoundtrack and I also had the
Roxy Music from before it becamea film, like when it was the
musical show.
I had both soundtracks and Ijust loved it.
And then the first time I wentto see it, I went to see it live
.
You know one of the screeningsand you know how they do that
(03:01):
thing where people who've neverseen it before are declared
virgins and have like V's put ontheir head and stuff.
As I came into the theater theywere like, have you seen it
before?
And I was like, yeah, I've seenit lots.
And they were like, are yousure?
I had no idea.
I had no idea about the, youknow, virgin thing and so.
I managed to escape ever havingthat virgin experience at a
(03:23):
Rocky Horror screening becausewhen I was coming into the first
time I saw it, which must havebeen in Baltimore, or maybe it
was in Cleveland and Ohio, andlike while I was in college, I
don't know, I'm not sure, but itwas I was still.
I was pretty young.
I was pretty young like under21 when I saw it the first time
(03:44):
like like in 19 or 20.
Yeah, so it is like the musicis absolutely a part of the
furniture of my brain.
In fact.
I was just at a party lastweekend and somebody said, yeah,
you know, it's the home ofhappiness, and I was like, oh,
denton.
And then somebody else in theroom was like Denton in Maryland
(04:04):
or the one in Ohio, whatever.
I don't remember what the otherstate was.
I was like, uh, unclear, shedidn't know we were referencing
the movie, anyway.
So yeah, it is like faked in toto my gray matter.
I did go to watch it againwithin the past couple years and
(04:25):
was like, uh, oh, like watchingit today after the Me Too
movement, it's uncomfortable.
I'm sure we'll get into that,but yeah, that's, that's what I
know and remember.
I know all the songs, everyword, every beat, every woohoo,
and I'm excited to uh, toreminisce with you about it.
(04:47):
So why are we reminiscing aboutit?
Tell me, like, why did youbring this one to Deep Thoughts.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Like you, this, this movie, is very much part of the
furniture of my brain.
I have a tendency to singthings to myself to the tune of
other songs, so I'll be pouringmyself coffee going coffee,
coffee, coffee, coffee.
I want to feel a lirty, so likethat's just.
(05:16):
It's just part of what I do,and I consistently go back to
these songs because they areexcellent.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And they're like catchy AF oh so catchy Like.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
That's something that I think is really important and
part of the reason why I wantto talk about it.
I was a sort of theater kid andthat's how I was introduced to
the film.
Actually not, it wasn't exactlyby you.
I very vividly remember I wasin the play my freshman year of
high school and we had some sortof like Halloween cast party
(05:48):
and someone played Time Warp andI remember being like this is
fantastic, and it was soon afterthat that I saw the film.
I think it was.
You had the VHS and I was likeI heard that song, I want to
watch that movie.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yeah, if you were a freshman in high school, then
maybe I was a little older whenthe broadcast thing was.
I don't know why you weren'tthere, that I was at Dad's house
and you weren't there.
Maybe you were performing inthe play or something, maybe
rehearsal.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Maybe the place that this film holds in LGBTQIA
history is so important and Iactually feel a little under
qualified or a lot underqualified to talk about that.
But I do want to talk about howyou and I in high school felt
(06:37):
perfectly comfortable saying welove Rocky Horror Picture Show,
which I think shows how far theworld had come, even in the 90s,
when my high school guy friendswere so virulently homophobic
and like friends was, you know,the biggest sitcom on the air
(06:57):
was so homophobic.
So there's there is thisimportant thread of what this
film you know means for openingup people's eyes.
It's also so incrediblyinfluential in terms of style.
This was something I was notaware of, but as I was doing
(07:18):
some research, the costuming forthis show really influenced
punk rock style, so like rippedfishnets and corsets and things
like that.
It was very influential and, as, as you said, it's part of the
furniture of my mind.
So I really want to take asecond look at it now that we're
doing this project with bothkind of more critical eye,
(07:43):
considering the fact that thismovie was made nearly 50 years
ago and so some things havechanged a lot, but also with an
appreciative eye because of whatRichard O'Brien, the writer and
actor who played riffraff, whathe was able to create with this
amazing, small budget, indie,very strange film that is so
(08:07):
influential and so important.
So that's that's why we'retalking about it today.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Cool, so let's remind our listeners about the plot
such as there is one.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
So we start off with the lips where it's.
The intro is a song aboutbasically, films and love for
old science fiction films.
And then we are introduced toBrad and Janet, who are at their
friends Betty and Ralph'swedding, and Brad ends up
singing a song to Janet where heproposes to her that he's in
(08:41):
love with her, he wants to marryher and they're going to go
back to meet their old professor, dr Scott, who was where they
met.
It was in his science class.
They head off to find Dr Scottto tell him the good news about
their engagements, but they getlost on the way.
They take a wrong turning andthey get flat.
(09:02):
And this is back in the battledays, when you didn't have a
phone in your pocket.
So they decide to go back tothe castle.
They saw a little while backand see if there's a phone.
The castle yeah yeah, a randomcastle.
So they passed.
So they get there.
There's a whole bunch of verystrange people there who are
(09:22):
dancing and singing.
Janet is freaked out and wantsto leave, and then they are
introduced to their host, drFrankenferder, who is played
with scenery chewing perfectionby Tim Curry who who is not dead
?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
by the way, he is not dead.
Who thought he was dead at thisparty?
I was talking about Rocky Horus.
I was like I was so sad when hedied.
I was like he's not dead.
He's still alive, still chewingthe scenery.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
So Frankenferder invites them to stay the night,
which basically tells them tostay the night.
They are shivering, coldbecause they were out in
November rain to get to thecastle.
So he has them, has hisservants removed their clothes
so they're just in theirunderwear, and then they they're
given like bloodstained robesto wear.
(10:15):
So he invites them up to thelab to see his newest invention,
which is Rocky, who is a muscleman who Frankenferder has
created.
We learn that he created thisman using half of the brain of
his protege, eddie, who first,out of deep freeze, sings a
(10:38):
pretty good song and then isFrankenferder.
Before Frank and Rocky retireto the honeymoon suite.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
And it turns out that Eddie is Dr Scott's nephew.
Are you getting to that?
I will.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yes, did I.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Okay, sorry.
So Brad and Janet are eachshown to their own bedrooms in
the night.
Frank comes to visit each onepretending to be the other and
the term used in like describingit as he seduces them.
But it is not okay.
But there is a sexual somethinghappens after Frank has seduced
(11:17):
both Janet and Brad.
Janet is kind of wanderingaround the castle feeling
distraught about what is goingon.
Rocky has gone, running offbecause he's been chased off by
riffraff and magenta, and Janetends up back in the lab where
she finds Rocky crying becausehe is frightened he's been
(11:41):
chased off by the dogs and shestarts to comfort him because
he's hurt and she has thisrealization like, oh, she is
very attracted to him.
She has a song touch a touch, atouch me song and she and Rocky
end up having some sort ofinteraction together.
(12:03):
While that is happening, drScott suddenly shows up at the
castle and Dr Scott is who Janetand Brad were going to announce
their engagement to.
He is actually the uncle ofEddie and so he comes into the
castle.
Dr Frank and Ferdler alreadyknows exactly who Dr Scott is.
There's this wonderful scenewhere they all end up in the lab
(12:26):
and they're shocked to findJanet and Rocky together.
And there's the wonderful jokethat always gets me it's Dr
Scott, brad, dr Scott, janet,rocky, which is repeated like
three times and makes me crackup every time.
And in the midst of that,magenta appears through the hole
(12:49):
in the wall that Dr Scott hasjust crashed through to announce
that dinner is ready.
And she says dinner is prepared, which is how I announce any
meal.
In my house.
They have a very, veryuncomfortable meal of some
strange meat that Frank cutswith a, an electric knife which
(13:11):
I guess were a thing in the 70sand riffraff.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Oh yeah, like an electric carver.
It was a thing in the 70s.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, which riffraff hands out to everyone by hand
like just throws little Likebare hands, bare hands.
It turns out that they areeating, eddie, oh no, it's
rather tend to subject Anotherslush.
Oh no, meatloaf again.
So Dr Scott explains how heknows Eddie, why he happens to
(13:42):
be there.
Janet freaks out and kind ofruns away.
Frank runs after her, tells hershe's about a sensual as a
pencil.
You're a sensual as a pencil.
And the doctor ends up usingthe doosizer to turn everyone
into a statue.
So he turns Janet, brad, drScott and Columbia into statues
(14:04):
and Rocky.
And then he gets ready for thefloor show where he unmeduizes
everyone after he's dressed themup in corsets and stockings and
garters and they have a bigsong number together.
Riffraff and Magenta come indressed in space clothes and
tell him that the mission's afailure, they're leaving and
(14:28):
they kill Frankenferder, theykill Columbia and they kill
Rocky and they tell theremaining humans.
So Brad, janet, dr Scott to getout of there and the castle
takes off because it's actuallya spaceship.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
So it's a Frankenstein parody and also an
alien thing and a sex romp andalso like a musical like, but
like almost like a burlesque.
I mean they don't strip butthey're dressed very risk game.
It's also like a mockumentarycrime drama, right With the
(15:02):
criminologist who, like,narrates the thing.
Just it just defies genre.
It is it will not bepigeonholed into a single genre.
Honestly, there's no way wecould do it justice in a
synopsis like this.
You just have to watch it.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, this film epitomizes the writing advice
that you should write the storyor create the art that only you
can create, because, clearly,rocky Horror Picture Show is
something that only could havecome from the mind of Richard
O'Brien, and what I love aboutit is it also wears its
(15:42):
inspirations proudly, like hewas clearly inspired by, you
know, be Horror and sci-fimovies from the early 20th
century.
He was inspired by musicaltheater.
He was inspired by the gayscene and punk scene in terms of
, like, the look of whateveryone's wearing and the story
(16:04):
that's in there.
He was inspired by crimefiction, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Like mockumentaries, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Yeah, and so this is especially important for me as a
creator, because I grew up withthis sense that art has to
spring fully formed from themind of the artist, with no
influence whatsoever.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Right, right, just sort of placed there by some
divine hand.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Yes, and I've since learned that some of that has to
do with how we treatmarginalized creators.
So if there is a creator from amarginalized group who has such
beautiful art or fiction, orwhatever it is that they create,
that it cannot be ignored bymainstream society, the tendency
(16:55):
is to erase their influencesand to treat them as if they had
come out of nowhere.
So I cannot name Jane Austen'sinfluences, though she had them,
but because she is thisincredible talent, we treat her
as if she just popped up out ofnowhere, right, and so that
(17:19):
basically means that we can'tfollow her example of how she
learned to write and how shebecame as good as she is.
And so that's the other aspectabout this that I love, because
queer creators are in a similarkind of situation, where there's
this sense that they kind ofcame out of nowhere, rather than
recognizing their influences.
(17:41):
And Richard O'Brien, he doesn'tjust recognize his influences,
he names them.
He names them all in thatintroductory song.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
And we see them too in the action, right Like Rocky
climbs the RKO tower carryingFrank.
It's clearly a King Kongreference and within the songs
too right when one of Frank'ssongs he sings whatever happened
to Faye Ray?
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Faye Ray.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yeah, right, so like actors are named actors,
actresses, characters are namedthroughout the film and in the
different musical numbers andthings.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
So yeah, there's no pretense about this being a
fully formed Athena stepping outof the mind of Well, and the
fact that it's a Frankensteinstory, which means that it is
part of this long tradition thatstarted.
(18:46):
We know exactly whereFrankenstein started and that is
now a trope.
So it's impossible to define ordescribe this movie.
You kind of just have to watchit, and that's because it's all
the weird shit that RichardO'Brien carries around in his
own head.
And it has not only created aremarkable film, but it has
(19:11):
spawned so much art Some of itlike the midnight showings that
you went to where people throwtorest, and so on.
The audience participation, yes,but it's also inspired a great
deal of costume choices and artand other things.
I also and I was not able tofollow up on this as much as I
wanted I read and I wanted tolike double check it that the
(19:35):
term Easter egg in terms of likesomething hidden for a viewer
to see comes from this film.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah, I remember reading that too, because they
actually did like an egg huntfor the cast or something and
you can actually see them in thelike there's one under a throne
or something, one under theunder Frankenfurter's throne?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, and it was not intentional, like they just
didn't find all the.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
They find it, they had to start filming again.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
So just amazingly influential.
And like I do find that soinspirational, that like the
weird crap in your head issomething people want to see.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
You know, I think I am willing to bet that Richard
O'Brien took a lot of golf flakwhatever the right word is shit
for his weirdness, you know, forthe things that he liked.
I'm sure he was, you know,teased and and maybe even worse
about it, and then he was ableto turn it into this piece of
(20:33):
media that is so beloved by somany.
That's really sweet, and he isan amazing songwriter.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Those songs are so good.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
In those early days when I was first like when I was
really enamored and I boughtboth the sound tracks and stuff,
like trying to find otherthings that he had done and
really coming up short.
Like it's like it's the.
It's the thing that he got anykind of recognition for, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
He has.
There's a film that is kind oflike a sort of sequel.
It takes place in Denton.
It's stars Brad and Janet,although they're they're not
played by Barry Bostwick andSusan Sarandon, and actually
Patricia Quinn, who playedMagenta, and little Nell, who
played Columbia, are both in itand it's actually a really,
(21:20):
apparently a very good satire ofwhat we now have for reality TV
, even though it came out like81 or 82.
Richard O'Brien was also anactor in the film Dark City,
where he plays an alien.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
So of course he does.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Yeah, but I also I wonder if part of why you had
trouble finding it is he gotstarted in theater and I believe
he probably continued to workin theater.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
It was also like the mid to late 90s and I haven't
looked since.
In the ways that we were ableto search then are not like what
they are now.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
So yeah, yeah, didn't have a computer in your pocket.
It's just phenomenal and fun.
Like it is fun, yeah, and Iactually have been listening to
soundtrack, but even with mykids in the car although there
have been a couple of thingswhere explain things, I'm like
I've not played touch a touch atouch me for the kids Because
(22:20):
that I'm like okay with defininga transsexual and transvestite,
but the I want to feel dirty,I'm not comfortable explaining
to my children.
Yeah, but it's also a productof its time.
So let's start with the.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Beck-Dell test yeah, it barely passes, barely passes.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
So we have four named female characters.
We've got Janet, of course.
There's Betty Monroe, who isnow Mrs Ralph Hapshat, right, ha
ha ha.
There's Columbia, who is thegroupie, and Magenta, who is one
of Frank's servants.
(23:01):
So there are four named femalecharacters.
They do talk to each other.
Janet asks Magenta if Frank isher husband, but that's about a
man.
And I think Janet says you'revery kind when Magenta is drying
her hair.
And then Columbia and Magenta.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Well, janet definitely asks if something
about the lab, because Columbiasays I've seen it.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Oh, yes, that's right .
That's right.
I'd forgotten that.
Yes, all right.
And then there's the pointwhere Columbia and Magenta are
watching Janet while she isseducing Rocky and talking about
what Janet is singing yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
You mean she, she, uh-huh.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
So it passes Barely.
It's a low bar.
It's a low bar, but it's notgreat about gender in terms of
women.
It's very obviously comfortableand OK with gender bending.
Yes, from men in any case,although the unconventional
(24:16):
conventionists are all dressedin like tuxedos and like
masculine coated clothing andthey are not all Cis men.
Cis men, yes, thank you.
So there is some of that andthat's fantastic.
Like Frank spends pretty muchthe entire movie in a corset and
(24:37):
garters, yeah, there's pointswhere he's wearing a dress, like
an actual dress, yeah, and allof, and he wears a lot of makeup
, a lot of eye makeup.
Interesting fact the designer,the makeup artist who did the
makeup for Rocky Horror PictureShow is the same makeup artist
who did David Bowie's LightningBolt for Aladdin's Sane, which
(24:58):
is really cool.
And something that I think isreally interesting is in that
floor show at the end, everyoneis dressed like Frank at that
point and all of the men arestill shown to be sexy,
including Dr Scott.
Now he is not in the full getup, but while he's singing he
(25:21):
lifts his leg and you see thathe's wearing the garters and
stockings and high heeled shoes.
And I think that that's areally important moment because
it is an anti-Abelist messageabout the sexiness of all body
types, including those inwheelchairs, and that is so
subversive.
I mean, that would be hugelysubversive today, let alone 50
(25:42):
years ago, 75.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
I think it's interesting.
So that's about gender, and Ithink sexuality is wrapped up in
it.
The men aren't wearing housecoats, right.
They're wearing stockings Likefishnets and high heels, so like
feminine coated sexy things,right.
So I think that's significant.
I was thinking about it as wewere getting ready to record it,
(26:07):
and one of the things that Ithink is really interesting and
good about sexuality andqueerness in this film is that
it does not erase bisexuality.
In addition to the binary ofgender male and female that we
have been given by Westernculture, we've also been given a
binary about sexuality queer orstraight and this movie
(26:31):
actually pushes back againstboth binaries which is really
cool.
So we see, I mean Frank isunashamedly bisexual.
We see, repeatedly like, likesexual, really Well, yeah, yeah,
although I don't know if wasthat a term in 1975?
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Yeah, Honestly, I don't know if it.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
I don't know either.
People would self-identify us,but yeah, but that is for sure
agreed, agreed.
Columbia is also shown to bebisexual.
Columbia is, and we see thatBrad actually is.
Because, he says just don't tellJanet about his time with Frank
(27:12):
.
So I think there's somethingthat I really deeply appreciate
about that in this movie, andlike multiple truths can be held
at the same time, like theactual treatment of these women
is incomplete.
I think Janet is just I don'teven know what the words are
(27:42):
it's sort of she's just thewalking personification of you
would like kink if you tried it.
That's all there is to her,your vanilla and virginal, only
because you haven't triedanything.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
That's all there is to her character.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Yeah, that's not a character.
I know that O'Brien, in writingthis, was trying to lampoon the
buttoned up conservative,straight world, and one of the
best indications of that to meis at the beginning, when
they're at Betty and Ralph'swedding, the getaway car They've
(28:25):
got just married on it.
But on the side it's like shegot hers, just wait, tonight
he'll get his.
Yeah, and that is very much alampooning of the expectations
of sex within heterosexualmarriage and that the wedding is
(28:48):
for her, the ring is for herand the sex is for him.
And so I can appreciate theattempt to show that women can
enjoy sex, the attempt to showthat Betty and Ralph just don't
know better, because that is theworld that they live in.
(29:12):
And if they were to rose tinttheir world, if they were to
stop by Frank and Ferdinand'scastle, they too would have an
awakening.
And there's two sides to that.
On the one side, yes, I dothink that that aspect of
straight culture needs to belampooned.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Yeah, it's so reductive, it's so deeply
reductive, that women give sexto get love and men give love to
get sex.
That is so reductive and grossas if all humans don't need both
.
I mean sorry, I guess, asexualfolks.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
I actually don't.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
But as if everything's not on the table.
We can't want and desire andgive and receive love and sex
and different iterations thereof, regardless of our gender,
mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
And you know that view of sexuality is like still
alive and well in 2024.
Oh yes, absolutely, and so likeabsolutely.
I appreciate that the issuethat I have with the way that
Rocky Horror Picture Show showsit is that, like Janet's not a
fully-formed character.
(30:26):
Now, part of that's because noone in this film is a
fully-formed character.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
That is absolutely true.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Yeah, and they play up the oh what shall I do?
Kind of aspect of her damsel indistress, as just as much as
they play up you know life'scheap, or that type, like for
Brad Right, it's intentional,you're right, you're right, yeah
(30:53):
, but it also completely ignoresconsent.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
And that's Completely ignores consent Is where it's a
problem.
Not only that, it does that oldtrope of kind of excusing the
lack of consent by suggestingthe victim of the deception and
or assault enjoyed it andtherefore it's OK.
Yes, the enjoyment justifiesthe lack of consent, or the
(31:19):
coercion or the deception, likethat's the sort of revenge of
the nerds type, yes, which isafter this movie.
But that trope of like you know,if she enjoys the sex that she
didn't fully consent to, thenyou're off the hook for having
not received the consent in thefirst place.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Yeah, and that doesn't fly in 2024.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Yes, and you know I don't want to say to be fair
because it's not fair.
Continuous enthusiastic vocalconsent is a, sadly, relatively
new concept.
Yeah, Like in 1975, no means nowas progressive.
Yeah, so like I don't want tosay to be fair to Richard
O'Brien, because that was neverOK To put it in context, though,
(32:05):
but in context, yes, I alsothink that a woman writing this
would have pulled on differentlevers.
Yeah, but that like.
But it's impossible to say.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
But someone who has existed in a female-coded body,
who also was as subversive asRichard O'Brien was yeah, maybe
it's impossible to say, but it'simpossible to say yeah Because
you're right about that None ofthem are fully formed.
So my saying like Janet is notfully formed is like, yeah, so,
trace, and you know, it wassubversive that Janet, you know,
(32:45):
like the moment when she likerips off a piece of her slip to
tend his wound and then likelooks around and bites her lip,
like even showing her desiringsex with Rocky, was subversive
in 75.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yes, yeah, and you know other aspects of it.
So showing Columbia and Magenta, first of all, the voyeurism,
that like non-consensualvoyeurism also not OK, right,
but like showing them enjoyingeach other sexually, is
incredibly subversive.
Showing like, unapologetically,frank is attracted to men, so
(33:24):
subversive.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
And also sleeping with women.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yes, yes, and particularly like.
The idea that women would findFrank attractive too is
subversive.
Yep, yep, columbia makes itclear I loved you, frank.
Yeah, and Janet.
You know as icky as that sceneis.
She does giggle and say like,well, ok, as long as you don't
tell Brad.
And she also.
(33:49):
She giggles when Frank kissesher hand and says on Chante, so
like he is desirable inheterosexual pairings, even
presenting as he does.
And that's amazing yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
I love that.
There's like the fireworksgoing off outside my head right
now, before Klee, you knowthinking about men's bodies,
actually, right.
So we've got Rocky in hislittle silver speedo, who's like
a bodybuilder you bury muscleyand then there's Meatloaf, who's
small fat, and Brad, who's justslim, and then Frank is wiry in
(34:34):
that sort of like androgynousway, so like we have a big
diversity of male body types,all of whom are sexually
desirable in one way or another.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
What's interesting is that there's this diversity of
bodies that are sexy in men.
You don't see it in the women.
Now, one possibility I knowRichard O'Brien is queer.
I do not know if he is a gayman or if he is bisexual or I
don't know, but it's entirelypossible that this is like
(35:10):
partially about Richard O'Brienis casting people he finds sexy,
which is a diverse group of men, and then he's not particularly
interested in women.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yeah, it's possible.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
It's possible and it's a lot to ask of three women
basically, particularly in 1975.
These days you have a hardenough time getting any kind of
diversity of anything in a film,let alone body type.
But things to think about whatthis says about sexuality, what
(35:44):
this says about sexiness yeah,it is talking about diversity
too.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
We are talking about all white people.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
A couple of the unconventional conventionists
are black.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yeah, but they're extras.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
They're extras, yes, but yeah, everyone is white in
this film, and that is something.
When they did a remake of itWait, they did a remake.
Oh yeah, you don't rememberthis.
No, they had Laverne Cox playFrankenferdor.
What?
How did I miss this when thiswas like 2013, 2014.
(36:23):
It might have been right afteryou had your baby, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
When?
Yeah, mike, I wasn't.
Yeah, my kid was born in 2013.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Not Vantage the world .
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Yeah, your kid was born in 2012.
My kid was born in 2012.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
My kid was born in 2013.
I have not seen the remakebecause I just can't.
I can't, even though I thinkit's important and amazing that
they are trying to include morediversity into this important
film.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
We've talked in this project about how it's easier to
self-insert and feel resonancewith media where there's
pro-dagnists who look like youor who share identities of some
sort with you, so I reallyappreciate that, but I just I
didn't even know it happened.
I am definitely going to sneakit out For whatever reason, I
(37:18):
just can't.
I totally get why you wouldn't,but I want to see it.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
And I think Laverne Cox's Frankenferdor is inspired
casting.
But yeah, I have such affectionfor this movie, despite its
serious problems with consent.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Yeah, those scenes in the identical rooms with the
different filters, the same roombut the different filters,
where Frank pretends to be Bradand Janet.
I can't watch them now.
The rest of the movie thosescenes are painful.
They're painful to watch.
Yeah, With today's eyes theyreally are.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
You were talking a little bit earlier about Byer
Asher.
This film also kind of does aceerasure.
There's no sense that it's OKto be asexual and that's an
important part of the rainbow.
So the idea that, oh, you justneed to try it and then it'll be
(38:18):
great is upsetting.
Yeah, it's an upsetting messageto put in an otherwise very
open kind of film.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Yeah, well, our listeners don't know, but we've
had some multiple interruptionsin this recording session, so I
actually have no sense of howlong we've been talking Really,
but I wanted to ask have we hiton the things that you wanted to
make sure that you talked about, about this film?
Speaker 1 (38:42):
There's one thing I wanted to mention.
Because of this film, I wrote apaper for my gym class about
Charles Atlas.
So when I was in high school wehad a gym gym environments.
For various scheduling reasonsI could not get into just
(39:05):
regular gym class and so I wasstuck in a weight training class
with all of the wrestlers andfootball players.
Wrestling was the big big sportin my school.
It was not fun and the coachhad this rule that, like you
couldn't get an A unless you didan extra credit report on
(39:28):
weight training.
And I was like I do not want todo a report on weight training,
so I convinced him to let mewrite a paper about Charles
Atlas.
That is so funny, you know.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
One thing that I wanted to just quickly know and
we don't need to delve deep intoit, but I feel like it should
be mentioned is that drugculture and drug use was much
more prevalent in the Broadwayor the stage version of the show
than in the movie, althoughit's there, I thought you were a
little reference to it, butthey're yeah, they're less overt
(40:06):
.
And Eddie, one of the thingsthat Dr Scott says that Eddie
did wrong was that he shooted upjunk, and that's what made him
a punk was that he was a druguser.
One of the things he also likedrock and roll horn and the
motorbike, so it's not just thedrugs and I don't.
I don't actually have anythinglike super insightful to say,
but just I just want to name itas another plane of subversion
(40:29):
and, in terms of beingsubversive, of contemporary
mainstream culture that O'Brienwas tapping into with his mashup
.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
I feel like we can talk about rocking and
mentioning at leastacknowledging that that was a
piece of it.
For people who are better versedin 20th century music.
There is also and I'm going tolink to this in the show notes
because I don't feel confidenttalking about it, because I
don't know enough about it butthis film can also be kind of an
be an allegory for musicaltransition between, like fifties
(41:02):
and sixties rock and roll to,like the seventies, glam rock.
Talking about Eddie, he had acertain naive charm but no
muscle, and there was in thisarticle that I'll link.
They were talking about how,like that is kind of the
difference between musicians inthe fifties and sixties were
just musicians, whereas glamrockers were personas, so they
(41:24):
had to have muscle or somethingto show, basically in addition
to their music.
And I found it reallyfascinating.
But kind of went over my headjust because I don't know
musical history that well, but Ifound that really, really
fascinating.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Okay, I'm going to do my best to synthesize or at
least reflect back some of thethings that we've talked about.
Again, we had so manyinterruptions like, please, like
, fill in for me.
I'll start with the art making,because in some ways to me that
feels one of the things that'suniquely guy girls to talk about
, which is the idea that RichardO'Brien, with this film and and
(42:03):
the stage show before it,really gives us a piece of art
that only he could create, whichis beautiful because it's all
the weird stuff that he lovesall mashed up together into a
singular whole, and that's areally beautiful and in some
ways empowering vision of whatart can be, especially when
(42:26):
placed in opposition to theunrealistic expectation that art
is somehow, like placed, fullyformed, into the mind of the
creator by some divineinspiration and has no influence
from other artists.
We also talked about the powerof this film in terms of how
(42:46):
beloved and embracing is theword I want to use and just like
fun and celebratory is formembers of the LGBTQ community
for so long, and the way thatit's reception, we can sort of
track greater acceptance inmainstream culture of LGBTQ
(43:08):
culture, in so far as you and Iwere able to be vocally Rocky
Horror Picture Show fans in themid to late 90s as cis, straight
, ish, female high schoolstudents and college students in
my case we cannot escape thefact that our understanding of
(43:32):
what is acceptable when it comesto consent has changed
drastically and dramaticallysince this film was made.
And this film just does notstand up to today's standards
when it comes to consent.
It just doesn't.
It does beautifully, in funways, push back against both the
(43:53):
gender binary and the sexualitybinary, both the gender binary
of male, female and thesexuality binary of queer or
straight.
Let me see the music isfantastic, catchy AF.
What else?
Not a lot of not a lot of racialor ethnic diversity in the cast
, but there is some body typediversity, at least among the
(44:18):
male presenting characters, in away that feels actually like
body positivity, not onlymeatloaf Eddie as a fat body and
still sexy individual, but alsoDr Scott as a disabled person
who still is given the chance tohave you know at least a moment
(44:38):
of acknowledging sexuality andsexiness.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
I love him singing you that weird German accent.
Like why is he German?
His name is Efrit Scott.
He taught it dead and high.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Okay, oh, you pointed out the fact that O'Brien was
lampooning sort of straightlaced, conservative, mainstream
heterosexual culture and thenotion that the way I phrased it
was that men give love to getsex and women give sex to get
love.
We see that in multiple ways ofthat sort of straight laced
(45:24):
vanilla inherited gender andsexuality being lampooned in
ways that don't age perfectly.
Not quite as bad as the consentthing, but not great.
What am I forgetting him?
What do you want to make surethat you lift up in the
highlights real here at the end,Gosh?
Speaker 1 (45:46):
just like how fun this movie is, like how much fun
it seems like the people hadmaking it.
I mean even the fact that youknow the term Easter egg comes
from it, because they had anEaster egg on while they were
making this film.
It doesn't take itself tooseriously, which is wonderful.
I mean that's part of thereason why it's beloved.
You know, like people don'tlike pretension and Richard
(46:09):
O'Brien had no pretenses.
He was making the weird, funny,hilarious, queer, sexy thing he
wanted to watch.
That's wonderful, that's reallylovely.
Oh, and just the influence thatthis film has had on so many
aspects of culture, includingfashion, makeup, the fact that
(46:33):
the makeup design was the sameguy did Bowie's lightning bolt
music, Just there's.
There's so many things I alsoreally want to like.
Just take a moment toappreciate the fact that Mary
Wollstonecraft, Shelley wrote ascary story, like because it was
raining one day and years later, this kind of like yeah.
(47:00):
I love that.
That's like, it's so cool,that's really cool, yeah, and so
like that that I.
One of the things I tell mykids and I think is really
important, is important toremember, is you have no control
over your legacy and in someways that can be worrisome or
scary and in some ways that isso wonderful, like there is no
(47:22):
way she could have foreseen this.
No, ripple's flowing outwardfrom that story that she wrote.
It's amazing, it's amazing itis.
And I said, 80 years later, I'moff.
It's like 150 years later, 170years later I don't remember
exactly when she wrote it, butit was like 1800.
1818.
(47:43):
So 1818.
So 160 years later.
Twice what I said, twice whatyou said I was off.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
I mean that's remarkable.
160 years later.
You know this like story thatshe was telling her friends to
scare them.
One night now has had this kindof like and that's like so many
iterations down right, becauseprobably Richard O'Brien has
read, had read the novel beforehe wrote this, but that's not
what he was actually likefeeding on he was feeding on the
(48:10):
interpretations and possiblyeven interpretations, of
interpretations.
Yeah, it's pretty cool, whichactually also circles back to
the original point that you madeabout influence.
Yeah, cool, all right.
Well, I'm going to say it's allover.
Your mission was a success.
Your lifestyle is not extreme.
(48:32):
Sorry, it's probably false, butit was funny in my head, so
next time, next time I'm goingto bring my deep thoughts about
reality bites.
My last one was breakfast club,so I'm kind of on this like Gen
.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
X.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Gen X coming of age.
Yeah, yeah, slice of life,movie kick.
So that's where I'm going.
Next, winona Ryder was like myself, like she was the one that
was going to play me in themovie for a long time, and I
haven't seen this movie again ina long time, so I'm looking
forward to.
It was one of the movies wewatched after I had that foot
(49:09):
surgery when I was 15.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Like, you came and sat in my bed with me and we
watched reality bites.
And then we might have watcheda couple others, but that's the
one I recall watching with you.
Yeah, so cool.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
All right, so that's what I'm bringing next time, and
I think you have someinteresting listening comments.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
There were a lot of comments about what made people
a reader after the Ann McCaffreyepisode so I thought it was
really cool that you were, thatI mean that you got to tell
McCaffrey in person like youmade me a reader and knowing
she's probably heard that from alot of people, but still it's
meaningful to you that you gotto say it to her and I wish I
(49:48):
could have said that to theperson who made me a reader.
But we were asking people likeyou know what made you a reader?
Andrew said what really made mea reader was a summer reading
program at our local publiclibrary where you earn points
not just for the number of booksbut also the length and
complexity.
I was in the young adult andadult sci-fi section by age 10
and racked up all sorts ofpoints.
(50:08):
I can't recall ever cashing themen.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
So Ray from Public Libraries.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
I also loved.
Ann had to say the firstchapter book I ever read on my
own was Basil of Baker Street byEve Titus and I know Ann Basil
of Baker Street is like about amouse detective and I know Ann
loves Shaw Combs, so I that fits.
I love that I never looked back.
Mrs Frisbee and the Rats of Nim, the Boxcar children and Maudi
(50:35):
in the middle are the threeearly ones I remember absolutely
loving and I've read MrsFrisbee and the Rats of Nim.
I'm familiar with the Boxcarchildren.
I've never read Maudi in themiddle.
So like got some books to read.
And then Barb, who is probablyabout 20 years older than us, I
think, said my first read fromstart to finish book was Heidi
and Black Beauty.
(50:55):
But it has been years since Ithought of that and I loved Ann
McCaffrey.
I read everything she had.
Me too, barb, me too.
So this has been super fun.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
I will see you next time.
See you next time, hey you,yeah you.
You're a deep thinker, I cantell.
Let's make it official.
Head on over to our website,guygirlsmediacom, and make sure
you don't miss a single deepthought.
You can get me and Emily inyour inbox every week.
(51:26):
What are you waiting for?
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
I'm Emily Guy-Burkin and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I will bediscussing the 1975 classic
Rocky Horror Picture Show withmy sister, tracy Guy-Dekker, and
with you, let's dive in OofY'all.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
we had some serious technical difficulties while
recording this episode.
I think we pulled it off in theedit, but if you notice
something weird, like maybewe're not quite in sync with one
another at a certain points,that's what happened.
Thanks for your patience.
I think it's worth a listen.
Anyway, have you ever hadsomething you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture,what others might deem stupid
(00:47):
shit?
You know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about, and so do we.
So come over, think with us aswe delve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
So Trace, this is another piece of media that
either of us could bleed on andI am absolutely certain you saw
this before I did, although itcame out before either of us
were born.
But tell me what you know aboutRocky Horror Picture Show, what
you remember about it, how youwere introduced to it, that sort
of thing.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
So I first saw it.
They did they actually showedit on broadcast TV when I was
maybe 16, but, like withcommentary.
So they'd like cut away to likethe audience, because I guess
it was filmed at one of the, youknow, live presentations and so
they'd like cut away to theaudience for some of the most
(01:39):
racy parts, although the wholething's pretty racy, and here's
the kicker.
I watched it with dad.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
I had no idea, oh goodness.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, that was an awkward 90 minutes.
My recollection is sitting in,you know, in his living room on
Olmstead Road and like beinglike oh, I didn't know it was a
Frankenstein story.
And then like being like really, really grateful for the
(02:15):
cutaways to like the audiencelike throwing toast or whatever
they were doing.
But I loved it.
I mean, even in that awkward,weird broadcast TV edited
version, I absolutely loved it.
And so, because of seeing itthat way, I somehow acquired a
VHS which is maybe how you sawit Probably and watched it over
(02:41):
and over and over again andbought.
I had the CD, I had thesoundtrack and I also had the
Roxy Music from before it becamea film, like when it was the
musical show.
I had both soundtracks and Ijust loved it.
And then the first time I wentto see it, I went to see it live
.
You know one of the screeningsand you know how they do that
(03:01):
thing where people who've neverseen it before are declared
virgins and have like V's put ontheir head and stuff.
As I came into the theater theywere like, have you seen it
before?
And I was like, yeah, I've seenit lots.
And they were like, are yousure?
I had no idea.
I had no idea about the, youknow, virgin thing and so.
I managed to escape ever havingthat virgin experience at a
(03:23):
Rocky Horror screening becausewhen I was coming into the first
time I saw it, which must havebeen in Baltimore, or maybe it
was in Cleveland and Ohio, andlike while I was in college, I
don't know, I'm not sure, but itwas I was still.
I was pretty young.
I was pretty young like under21 when I saw it the first time
(03:44):
like like in 19 or 20.
Yeah, so it is like the musicis absolutely a part of the
furniture of my brain.
In fact.
I was just at a party lastweekend and somebody said, yeah,
you know, it's the home ofhappiness, and I was like, oh,
denton.
And then somebody else in theroom was like Denton in Maryland
(04:04):
or the one in Ohio, whatever.
I don't remember what the otherstate was.
I was like, uh, unclear, shedidn't know we were referencing
the movie, anyway.
So yeah, it is like faked in toto my gray matter.
I did go to watch it againwithin the past couple years and
(04:25):
was like, uh, oh, like watchingit today after the Me Too
movement, it's uncomfortable.
I'm sure we'll get into that,but yeah, that's, that's what I
know and remember.
I know all the songs, everyword, every beat, every woohoo,
and I'm excited to uh, toreminisce with you about it.
(04:47):
So why are we reminiscing aboutit?
Tell me, like, why did youbring this one to Deep Thoughts.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Like you, this, this movie, is very much part of the
furniture of my brain.
I have a tendency to singthings to myself to the tune of
other songs, so I'll be pouringmyself coffee going coffee,
coffee, coffee, coffee.
I want to feel a lirty, so likethat's just.
(05:16):
It's just part of what I do,and I consistently go back to
these songs because they areexcellent.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And they're like catchy AF oh so catchy Like.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
That's something that I think is really important and
part of the reason why I wantto talk about it.
I was a sort of theater kid andthat's how I was introduced to
the film.
Actually not, it wasn't exactlyby you.
I very vividly remember I wasin the play my freshman year of
high school and we had some sortof like Halloween cast party
(05:48):
and someone played Time Warp andI remember being like this is
fantastic, and it was soon afterthat that I saw the film.
I think it was.
You had the VHS and I was likeI heard that song, I want to
watch that movie.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yeah, if you were a freshman in high school, then
maybe I was a little older whenthe broadcast thing was.
I don't know why you weren'tthere, that I was at Dad's house
and you weren't there.
Maybe you were performing inthe play or something, maybe
rehearsal.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Maybe the place that this film holds in LGBTQIA
history is so important and Iactually feel a little under
qualified or a lot underqualified to talk about that.
But I do want to talk about howyou and I in high school felt
(06:37):
perfectly comfortable saying welove Rocky Horror Picture Show,
which I think shows how far theworld had come, even in the 90s,
when my high school guy friendswere so virulently homophobic
and like friends was, you know,the biggest sitcom on the air
(06:57):
was so homophobic.
So there's there is thisimportant thread of what this
film you know means for openingup people's eyes.
It's also so incrediblyinfluential in terms of style.
This was something I was notaware of, but as I was doing
(07:18):
some research, the costuming forthis show really influenced
punk rock style, so like rippedfishnets and corsets and things
like that.
It was very influential and, as, as you said, it's part of the
furniture of my mind.
So I really want to take asecond look at it now that we're
doing this project with bothkind of more critical eye,
(07:43):
considering the fact that thismovie was made nearly 50 years
ago and so some things havechanged a lot, but also with an
appreciative eye because of whatRichard O'Brien, the writer and
actor who played riffraff, whathe was able to create with this
amazing, small budget, indie,very strange film that is so
(08:07):
influential and so important.
So that's that's why we'retalking about it today.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Cool, so let's remind our listeners about the plot
such as there is one.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
So we start off with the lips where it's.
The intro is a song aboutbasically, films and love for
old science fiction films.
And then we are introduced toBrad and Janet, who are at their
friends Betty and Ralph'swedding, and Brad ends up
singing a song to Janet where heproposes to her that he's in
(08:41):
love with her, he wants to marryher and they're going to go
back to meet their old professor, dr Scott, who was where they
met.
It was in his science class.
They head off to find Dr Scottto tell him the good news about
their engagements, but they getlost on the way.
They take a wrong turning andthey get flat.
(09:02):
And this is back in the battledays, when you didn't have a
phone in your pocket.
So they decide to go back tothe castle.
They saw a little while backand see if there's a phone.
The castle yeah yeah, a randomcastle.
So they passed.
So they get there.
There's a whole bunch of verystrange people there who are
(09:22):
dancing and singing.
Janet is freaked out and wantsto leave, and then they are
introduced to their host, drFrankenferder, who is played
with scenery chewing perfectionby Tim Curry who who is not dead
?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
by the way, he is not dead.
Who thought he was dead at thisparty?
I was talking about Rocky Horus.
I was like I was so sad when hedied.
I was like he's not dead.
He's still alive, still chewingthe scenery.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
So Frankenferder invites them to stay the night,
which basically tells them tostay the night.
They are shivering, coldbecause they were out in
November rain to get to thecastle.
So he has them, has hisservants removed their clothes
so they're just in theirunderwear, and then they they're
given like bloodstained robesto wear.
(10:15):
So he invites them up to thelab to see his newest invention,
which is Rocky, who is a muscleman who Frankenferder has
created.
We learn that he created thisman using half of the brain of
his protege, eddie, who first,out of deep freeze, sings a
(10:38):
pretty good song and then isFrankenferder.
Before Frank and Rocky retireto the honeymoon suite.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
And it turns out that Eddie is Dr Scott's nephew.
Are you getting to that?
I will.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yes, did I.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Okay, sorry.
So Brad and Janet are eachshown to their own bedrooms in
the night.
Frank comes to visit each onepretending to be the other and
the term used in like describingit as he seduces them.
But it is not okay.
But there is a sexual somethinghappens after Frank has seduced
(11:17):
both Janet and Brad.
Janet is kind of wanderingaround the castle feeling
distraught about what is goingon.
Rocky has gone, running offbecause he's been chased off by
riffraff and magenta, and Janetends up back in the lab where
she finds Rocky crying becausehe is frightened he's been
(11:41):
chased off by the dogs and shestarts to comfort him because
he's hurt and she has thisrealization like, oh, she is
very attracted to him.
She has a song touch a touch, atouch me song and she and Rocky
end up having some sort ofinteraction together.
(12:03):
While that is happening, drScott suddenly shows up at the
castle and Dr Scott is who Janetand Brad were going to announce
their engagement to.
He is actually the uncle ofEddie and so he comes into the
castle.
Dr Frank and Ferdler alreadyknows exactly who Dr Scott is.
There's this wonderful scenewhere they all end up in the lab
(12:26):
and they're shocked to findJanet and Rocky together.
And there's the wonderful jokethat always gets me it's Dr
Scott, brad, dr Scott, janet,rocky, which is repeated like
three times and makes me crackup every time.
And in the midst of that,magenta appears through the hole
(12:49):
in the wall that Dr Scott hasjust crashed through to announce
that dinner is ready.
And she says dinner is prepared, which is how I announce any
meal.
In my house.
They have a very, veryuncomfortable meal of some
strange meat that Frank cutswith a, an electric knife which
(13:11):
I guess were a thing in the 70sand riffraff.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Oh yeah, like an electric carver.
It was a thing in the 70s.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, which riffraff hands out to everyone by hand
like just throws little Likebare hands, bare hands.
It turns out that they areeating, eddie, oh no, it's
rather tend to subject Anotherslush.
Oh no, meatloaf again.
So Dr Scott explains how heknows Eddie, why he happens to
(13:42):
be there.
Janet freaks out and kind ofruns away.
Frank runs after her, tells hershe's about a sensual as a
pencil.
You're a sensual as a pencil.
And the doctor ends up usingthe doosizer to turn everyone
into a statue.
So he turns Janet, brad, drScott and Columbia into statues
(14:04):
and Rocky.
And then he gets ready for thefloor show where he unmeduizes
everyone after he's dressed themup in corsets and stockings and
garters and they have a bigsong number together.
Riffraff and Magenta come indressed in space clothes and
tell him that the mission's afailure, they're leaving and
(14:28):
they kill Frankenferder, theykill Columbia and they kill
Rocky and they tell theremaining humans.
So Brad, janet, dr Scott to getout of there and the castle
takes off because it's actuallya spaceship.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
So it's a Frankenstein parody and also an
alien thing and a sex romp andalso like a musical like, but
like almost like a burlesque.
I mean they don't strip butthey're dressed very risk game.
It's also like a mockumentarycrime drama, right With the
(15:02):
criminologist who, like,narrates the thing.
Just it just defies genre.
It is it will not bepigeonholed into a single genre.
Honestly, there's no way wecould do it justice in a
synopsis like this.
You just have to watch it.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, this film epitomizes the writing advice
that you should write the storyor create the art that only you
can create, because, clearly,rocky Horror Picture Show is
something that only could havecome from the mind of Richard
O'Brien, and what I love aboutit is it also wears its
(15:42):
inspirations proudly, like hewas clearly inspired by, you
know, be Horror and sci-fimovies from the early 20th
century.
He was inspired by musicaltheater.
He was inspired by the gayscene and punk scene in terms of
, like, the look of whateveryone's wearing and the story
(16:04):
that's in there.
He was inspired by crimefiction, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Like mockumentaries, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Yeah, and so this is especially important for me as a
creator, because I grew up withthis sense that art has to
spring fully formed from themind of the artist, with no
influence whatsoever.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Right, right, just sort of placed there by some
divine hand.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Yes, and I've since learned that some of that has to
do with how we treatmarginalized creators.
So if there is a creator from amarginalized group who has such
beautiful art or fiction, orwhatever it is that they create,
that it cannot be ignored bymainstream society, the tendency
(16:55):
is to erase their influencesand to treat them as if they had
come out of nowhere.
So I cannot name Jane Austen'sinfluences, though she had them,
but because she is thisincredible talent, we treat her
as if she just popped up out ofnowhere, right, and so that
(17:19):
basically means that we can'tfollow her example of how she
learned to write and how shebecame as good as she is.
And so that's the other aspectabout this that I love, because
queer creators are in a similarkind of situation, where there's
this sense that they kind ofcame out of nowhere, rather than
recognizing their influences.
(17:41):
And Richard O'Brien, he doesn'tjust recognize his influences,
he names them.
He names them all in thatintroductory song.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
And we see them too in the action, right Like Rocky
climbs the RKO tower carryingFrank.
It's clearly a King Kongreference and within the songs
too right when one of Frank'ssongs he sings whatever happened
to Faye Ray?
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Faye Ray.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yeah, right, so like actors are named actors,
actresses, characters are namedthroughout the film and in the
different musical numbers andthings.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
So yeah, there's no pretense about this being a
fully formed Athena stepping outof the mind of Well, and the
fact that it's a Frankensteinstory, which means that it is
part of this long tradition thatstarted.
(18:46):
We know exactly whereFrankenstein started and that is
now a trope.
So it's impossible to define ordescribe this movie.
You kind of just have to watchit, and that's because it's all
the weird shit that RichardO'Brien carries around in his
own head.
And it has not only created aremarkable film, but it has
(19:11):
spawned so much art Some of itlike the midnight showings that
you went to where people throwtorest, and so on.
The audience participation, yes,but it's also inspired a great
deal of costume choices and artand other things.
I also and I was not able tofollow up on this as much as I
wanted I read and I wanted tolike double check it that the
(19:35):
term Easter egg in terms of likesomething hidden for a viewer
to see comes from this film.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah, I remember reading that too, because they
actually did like an egg huntfor the cast or something and
you can actually see them in thelike there's one under a throne
or something, one under theunder Frankenfurter's throne?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, and it was not intentional, like they just
didn't find all the.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
They find it, they had to start filming again.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
So just amazingly influential.
And like I do find that soinspirational, that like the
weird crap in your head issomething people want to see.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
You know, I think I am willing to bet that Richard
O'Brien took a lot of golf flakwhatever the right word is shit
for his weirdness, you know, forthe things that he liked.
I'm sure he was, you know,teased and and maybe even worse
about it, and then he was ableto turn it into this piece of
(20:33):
media that is so beloved by somany.
That's really sweet, and he isan amazing songwriter.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Those songs are so good.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
In those early days when I was first like when I was
really enamored and I boughtboth the sound tracks and stuff,
like trying to find otherthings that he had done and
really coming up short.
Like it's like it's the.
It's the thing that he got anykind of recognition for, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
He has.
There's a film that is kind oflike a sort of sequel.
It takes place in Denton.
It's stars Brad and Janet,although they're they're not
played by Barry Bostwick andSusan Sarandon, and actually
Patricia Quinn, who playedMagenta, and little Nell, who
played Columbia, are both in itand it's actually a really,
(21:20):
apparently a very good satire ofwhat we now have for reality TV
, even though it came out like81 or 82.
Richard O'Brien was also anactor in the film Dark City,
where he plays an alien.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
So of course he does.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Yeah, but I also I wonder if part of why you had
trouble finding it is he gotstarted in theater and I believe
he probably continued to workin theater.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
It was also like the mid to late 90s and I haven't
looked since.
In the ways that we were ableto search then are not like what
they are now.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
So yeah, yeah, didn't have a computer in your pocket.
It's just phenomenal and fun.
Like it is fun, yeah, and Iactually have been listening to
soundtrack, but even with mykids in the car although there
have been a couple of thingswhere explain things, I'm like
I've not played touch a touch atouch me for the kids Because
(22:20):
that I'm like okay with defininga transsexual and transvestite,
but the I want to feel dirty,I'm not comfortable explaining
to my children.
Yeah, but it's also a productof its time.
So let's start with the.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Beck-Dell test yeah, it barely passes, barely passes.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
So we have four named female characters.
We've got Janet, of course.
There's Betty Monroe, who isnow Mrs Ralph Hapshat, right, ha
ha ha.
There's Columbia, who is thegroupie, and Magenta, who is one
of Frank's servants.
(23:01):
So there are four named femalecharacters.
They do talk to each other.
Janet asks Magenta if Frank isher husband, but that's about a
man.
And I think Janet says you'revery kind when Magenta is drying
her hair.
And then Columbia and Magenta.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Well, janet definitely asks if something
about the lab, because Columbiasays I've seen it.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Oh, yes, that's right .
That's right.
I'd forgotten that.
Yes, all right.
And then there's the pointwhere Columbia and Magenta are
watching Janet while she isseducing Rocky and talking about
what Janet is singing yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
You mean she, she, uh-huh.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
So it passes Barely.
It's a low bar.
It's a low bar, but it's notgreat about gender in terms of
women.
It's very obviously comfortableand OK with gender bending.
Yes, from men in any case,although the unconventional
(24:16):
conventionists are all dressedin like tuxedos and like
masculine coated clothing andthey are not all Cis men.
Cis men, yes, thank you.
So there is some of that andthat's fantastic.
Like Frank spends pretty muchthe entire movie in a corset and
(24:37):
garters, yeah, there's pointswhere he's wearing a dress, like
an actual dress, yeah, and allof, and he wears a lot of makeup
, a lot of eye makeup.
Interesting fact the designer,the makeup artist who did the
makeup for Rocky Horror PictureShow is the same makeup artist
who did David Bowie's LightningBolt for Aladdin's Sane, which
(24:58):
is really cool.
And something that I think isreally interesting is in that
floor show at the end, everyoneis dressed like Frank at that
point and all of the men arestill shown to be sexy,
including Dr Scott.
Now he is not in the full getup, but while he's singing he
(25:21):
lifts his leg and you see thathe's wearing the garters and
stockings and high heeled shoes.
And I think that that's areally important moment because
it is an anti-Abelist messageabout the sexiness of all body
types, including those inwheelchairs, and that is so
subversive.
I mean, that would be hugelysubversive today, let alone 50
(25:42):
years ago, 75.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
I think it's interesting.
So that's about gender, and Ithink sexuality is wrapped up in
it.
The men aren't wearing housecoats, right.
They're wearing stockings Likefishnets and high heels, so like
feminine coated sexy things,right.
So I think that's significant.
I was thinking about it as wewere getting ready to record it,
(26:07):
and one of the things that Ithink is really interesting and
good about sexuality andqueerness in this film is that
it does not erase bisexuality.
In addition to the binary ofgender male and female that we
have been given by Westernculture, we've also been given a
binary about sexuality queer orstraight and this movie
(26:31):
actually pushes back againstboth binaries which is really
cool.
So we see, I mean Frank isunashamedly bisexual.
We see, repeatedly like, likesexual, really Well, yeah, yeah,
although I don't know if wasthat a term in 1975?
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Yeah, Honestly, I don't know if it.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
I don't know either.
People would self-identify us,but yeah, but that is for sure
agreed, agreed.
Columbia is also shown to bebisexual.
Columbia is, and we see thatBrad actually is.
Because, he says just don't tellJanet about his time with Frank
(27:12):
.
So I think there's somethingthat I really deeply appreciate
about that in this movie, andlike multiple truths can be held
at the same time, like theactual treatment of these women
is incomplete.
I think Janet is just I don'teven know what the words are
(27:42):
it's sort of she's just thewalking personification of you
would like kink if you tried it.
That's all there is to her,your vanilla and virginal, only
because you haven't triedanything.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
That's all there is to her character.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Yeah, that's not a character.
I know that O'Brien, in writingthis, was trying to lampoon the
buttoned up conservative,straight world, and one of the
best indications of that to meis at the beginning, when
they're at Betty and Ralph'swedding, the getaway car They've
(28:25):
got just married on it.
But on the side it's like shegot hers, just wait, tonight
he'll get his.
Yeah, and that is very much alampooning of the expectations
of sex within heterosexualmarriage and that the wedding is
(28:48):
for her, the ring is for herand the sex is for him.
And so I can appreciate theattempt to show that women can
enjoy sex, the attempt to showthat Betty and Ralph just don't
know better, because that is theworld that they live in.
(29:12):
And if they were to rose tinttheir world, if they were to
stop by Frank and Ferdinand'scastle, they too would have an
awakening.
And there's two sides to that.
On the one side, yes, I dothink that that aspect of
straight culture needs to belampooned.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Yeah, it's so reductive, it's so deeply
reductive, that women give sexto get love and men give love to
get sex.
That is so reductive and grossas if all humans don't need both
.
I mean sorry, I guess, asexualfolks.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
I actually don't.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
But as if everything's not on the table.
We can't want and desire andgive and receive love and sex
and different iterations thereof, regardless of our gender,
mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
And you know that view of sexuality is like still
alive and well in 2024.
Oh yes, absolutely, and so likeabsolutely.
I appreciate that the issuethat I have with the way that
Rocky Horror Picture Show showsit is that, like Janet's not a
fully-formed character.
(30:26):
Now, part of that's because noone in this film is a
fully-formed character.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
That is absolutely true.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Yeah, and they play up the oh what shall I do?
Kind of aspect of her damsel indistress, as just as much as
they play up you know life'scheap, or that type, like for
Brad Right, it's intentional,you're right, you're right, yeah
(30:53):
, but it also completely ignoresconsent.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
And that's Completely ignores consent Is where it's a
problem.
Not only that, it does that oldtrope of kind of excusing the
lack of consent by suggestingthe victim of the deception and
or assault enjoyed it andtherefore it's OK.
Yes, the enjoyment justifiesthe lack of consent, or the
(31:19):
coercion or the deception, likethat's the sort of revenge of
the nerds type, yes, which isafter this movie.
But that trope of like you know,if she enjoys the sex that she
didn't fully consent to, thenyou're off the hook for having
not received the consent in thefirst place.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Yeah, and that doesn't fly in 2024.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Yes, and you know I don't want to say to be fair
because it's not fair.
Continuous enthusiastic vocalconsent is a, sadly, relatively
new concept.
Yeah, Like in 1975, no means nowas progressive.
Yeah, so like I don't want tosay to be fair to Richard
O'Brien, because that was neverOK To put it in context, though,
(32:05):
but in context, yes, I alsothink that a woman writing this
would have pulled on differentlevers.
Yeah, but that like.
But it's impossible to say.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
But someone who has existed in a female-coded body,
who also was as subversive asRichard O'Brien was yeah, maybe
it's impossible to say, but it'simpossible to say yeah Because
you're right about that None ofthem are fully formed.
So my saying like Janet is notfully formed is like, yeah, so,
trace, and you know, it wassubversive that Janet, you know,
(32:45):
like the moment when she likerips off a piece of her slip to
tend his wound and then likelooks around and bites her lip,
like even showing her desiringsex with Rocky, was subversive
in 75.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yes, yeah, and you know other aspects of it.
So showing Columbia and Magenta, first of all, the voyeurism,
that like non-consensualvoyeurism also not OK, right,
but like showing them enjoyingeach other sexually, is
incredibly subversive.
Showing like, unapologetically,frank is attracted to men, so
(33:24):
subversive.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
And also sleeping with women.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yes, yes, and particularly like.
The idea that women would findFrank attractive too is
subversive.
Yep, yep, columbia makes itclear I loved you, frank.
Yeah, and Janet.
You know as icky as that sceneis.
She does giggle and say like,well, ok, as long as you don't
tell Brad.
And she also.
(33:49):
She giggles when Frank kissesher hand and says on Chante, so
like he is desirable inheterosexual pairings, even
presenting as he does.
And that's amazing yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
I love that.
There's like the fireworksgoing off outside my head right
now, before Klee, you knowthinking about men's bodies,
actually, right.
So we've got Rocky in hislittle silver speedo, who's like
a bodybuilder you bury muscleyand then there's Meatloaf, who's
small fat, and Brad, who's justslim, and then Frank is wiry in
(34:34):
that sort of like androgynousway, so like we have a big
diversity of male body types,all of whom are sexually
desirable in one way or another.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
What's interesting is that there's this diversity of
bodies that are sexy in men.
You don't see it in the women.
Now, one possibility I knowRichard O'Brien is queer.
I do not know if he is a gayman or if he is bisexual or I
don't know, but it's entirelypossible that this is like
(35:10):
partially about Richard O'Brienis casting people he finds sexy,
which is a diverse group of men, and then he's not particularly
interested in women.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yeah, it's possible.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
It's possible and it's a lot to ask of three women
basically, particularly in 1975.
These days you have a hardenough time getting any kind of
diversity of anything in a film,let alone body type.
But things to think about whatthis says about sexuality, what
(35:44):
this says about sexiness yeah,it is talking about diversity
too.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
We are talking about all white people.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
A couple of the unconventional conventionists
are black.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yeah, but they're extras.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
They're extras, yes, but yeah, everyone is white in
this film, and that is something.
When they did a remake of itWait, they did a remake.
Oh yeah, you don't rememberthis.
No, they had Laverne Cox playFrankenferdor.
What?
How did I miss this when thiswas like 2013, 2014.
(36:23):
It might have been right afteryou had your baby, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
When?
Yeah, mike, I wasn't.
Yeah, my kid was born in 2013.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Not Vantage the world .
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Yeah, your kid was born in 2012.
My kid was born in 2012.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
My kid was born in 2013.
I have not seen the remakebecause I just can't.
I can't, even though I thinkit's important and amazing that
they are trying to include morediversity into this important
film.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
We've talked in this project about how it's easier to
self-insert and feel resonancewith media where there's
pro-dagnists who look like youor who share identities of some
sort with you, so I reallyappreciate that, but I just I
didn't even know it happened.
I am definitely going to sneakit out For whatever reason, I
(37:18):
just can't.
I totally get why you wouldn't,but I want to see it.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
And I think Laverne Cox's Frankenferdor is inspired
casting.
But yeah, I have such affectionfor this movie, despite its
serious problems with consent.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Yeah, those scenes in the identical rooms with the
different filters, the same roombut the different filters,
where Frank pretends to be Bradand Janet.
I can't watch them now.
The rest of the movie thosescenes are painful.
They're painful to watch.
Yeah, With today's eyes theyreally are.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
You were talking a little bit earlier about Byer
Asher.
This film also kind of does aceerasure.
There's no sense that it's OKto be asexual and that's an
important part of the rainbow.
So the idea that, oh, you justneed to try it and then it'll be
(38:18):
great is upsetting.
Yeah, it's an upsetting messageto put in an otherwise very
open kind of film.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Yeah, well, our listeners don't know, but we've
had some multiple interruptionsin this recording session, so I
actually have no sense of howlong we've been talking Really,
but I wanted to ask have we hiton the things that you wanted to
make sure that you talked about, about this film?
Speaker 1 (38:42):
There's one thing I wanted to mention.
Because of this film, I wrote apaper for my gym class about
Charles Atlas.
So when I was in high school wehad a gym gym environments.
For various scheduling reasonsI could not get into just
(39:05):
regular gym class and so I wasstuck in a weight training class
with all of the wrestlers andfootball players.
Wrestling was the big big sportin my school.
It was not fun and the coachhad this rule that, like you
couldn't get an A unless you didan extra credit report on
(39:28):
weight training.
And I was like I do not want todo a report on weight training,
so I convinced him to let mewrite a paper about Charles
Atlas.
That is so funny, you know.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
One thing that I wanted to just quickly know and
we don't need to delve deep intoit, but I feel like it should
be mentioned is that drugculture and drug use was much
more prevalent in the Broadwayor the stage version of the show
than in the movie, althoughit's there, I thought you were a
little reference to it, butthey're yeah, they're less overt
(40:06):
.
And Eddie, one of the thingsthat Dr Scott says that Eddie
did wrong was that he shooted upjunk, and that's what made him
a punk was that he was a druguser.
One of the things he also likedrock and roll horn and the
motorbike, so it's not just thedrugs and I don't.
I don't actually have anythinglike super insightful to say,
but just I just want to name itas another plane of subversion
(40:29):
and, in terms of beingsubversive, of contemporary
mainstream culture that O'Brienwas tapping into with his mashup
.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
I feel like we can talk about rocking and
mentioning at leastacknowledging that that was a
piece of it.
For people who are better versedin 20th century music.
There is also and I'm going tolink to this in the show notes
because I don't feel confidenttalking about it, because I
don't know enough about it butthis film can also be kind of an
be an allegory for musicaltransition between, like fifties
(41:02):
and sixties rock and roll to,like the seventies, glam rock.
Talking about Eddie, he had acertain naive charm but no
muscle, and there was in thisarticle that I'll link.
They were talking about how,like that is kind of the
difference between musicians inthe fifties and sixties were
just musicians, whereas glamrockers were personas, so they
(41:24):
had to have muscle or somethingto show, basically in addition
to their music.
And I found it reallyfascinating.
But kind of went over my headjust because I don't know
musical history that well, but Ifound that really, really
fascinating.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Okay, I'm going to do my best to synthesize or at
least reflect back some of thethings that we've talked about.
Again, we had so manyinterruptions like, please, like
, fill in for me.
I'll start with the art making,because in some ways to me that
feels one of the things that'suniquely guy girls to talk about
, which is the idea that RichardO'Brien, with this film and and
(42:03):
the stage show before it,really gives us a piece of art
that only he could create, whichis beautiful because it's all
the weird stuff that he lovesall mashed up together into a
singular whole, and that's areally beautiful and in some
ways empowering vision of whatart can be, especially when
(42:26):
placed in opposition to theunrealistic expectation that art
is somehow, like placed, fullyformed, into the mind of the
creator by some divineinspiration and has no influence
from other artists.
We also talked about the powerof this film in terms of how
(42:46):
beloved and embracing is theword I want to use and just like
fun and celebratory is formembers of the LGBTQ community
for so long, and the way thatit's reception, we can sort of
track greater acceptance inmainstream culture of LGBTQ
(43:08):
culture, in so far as you and Iwere able to be vocally Rocky
Horror Picture Show fans in themid to late 90s as cis, straight
, ish, female high schoolstudents and college students in
my case we cannot escape thefact that our understanding of
(43:32):
what is acceptable when it comesto consent has changed
drastically and dramaticallysince this film was made.
And this film just does notstand up to today's standards
when it comes to consent.
It just doesn't.
It does beautifully, in funways, push back against both the
(43:53):
gender binary and the sexualitybinary, both the gender binary
of male, female and thesexuality binary of queer or
straight.
Let me see the music isfantastic, catchy AF.
What else?
Not a lot of not a lot of racialor ethnic diversity in the cast
, but there is some body typediversity, at least among the
(44:18):
male presenting characters, in away that feels actually like
body positivity, not onlymeatloaf Eddie as a fat body and
still sexy individual, but alsoDr Scott as a disabled person
who still is given the chance tohave you know at least a moment
(44:38):
of acknowledging sexuality andsexiness.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
I love him singing you that weird German accent.
Like why is he German?
His name is Efrit Scott.
He taught it dead and high.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Okay, oh, you pointed out the fact that O'Brien was
lampooning sort of straightlaced, conservative, mainstream
heterosexual culture and thenotion that the way I phrased it
was that men give love to getsex and women give sex to get
love.
We see that in multiple ways ofthat sort of straight laced
(45:24):
vanilla inherited gender andsexuality being lampooned in
ways that don't age perfectly.
Not quite as bad as the consentthing, but not great.
What am I forgetting him?
What do you want to make surethat you lift up in the
highlights real here at the end,Gosh?
Speaker 1 (45:46):
just like how fun this movie is, like how much fun
it seems like the people hadmaking it.
I mean even the fact that youknow the term Easter egg comes
from it, because they had anEaster egg on while they were
making this film.
It doesn't take itself tooseriously, which is wonderful.
I mean that's part of thereason why it's beloved.
You know, like people don'tlike pretension and Richard
(46:09):
O'Brien had no pretenses.
He was making the weird, funny,hilarious, queer, sexy thing he
wanted to watch.
That's wonderful, that's reallylovely.
Oh, and just the influence thatthis film has had on so many
aspects of culture, includingfashion, makeup, the fact that
(46:33):
the makeup design was the sameguy did Bowie's lightning bolt
music, Just there's.
There's so many things I alsoreally want to like.
Just take a moment toappreciate the fact that Mary
Wollstonecraft, Shelley wrote ascary story, like because it was
raining one day and years later, this kind of like yeah.
(47:00):
I love that.
That's like, it's so cool,that's really cool, yeah, and so
like that that I.
One of the things I tell mykids and I think is really
important, is important toremember, is you have no control
over your legacy and in someways that can be worrisome or
scary and in some ways that isso wonderful, like there is no
(47:22):
way she could have foreseen this.
No, ripple's flowing outwardfrom that story that she wrote.
It's amazing, it's amazing itis.
And I said, 80 years later, I'moff.
It's like 150 years later, 170years later I don't remember
exactly when she wrote it, butit was like 1800.
1818.
(47:43):
So 1818.
So 160 years later.
Twice what I said, twice whatyou said I was off.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
I mean that's remarkable.
160 years later.
You know this like story thatshe was telling her friends to
scare them.
One night now has had this kindof like and that's like so many
iterations down right, becauseprobably Richard O'Brien has
read, had read the novel beforehe wrote this, but that's not
what he was actually likefeeding on he was feeding on the
(48:10):
interpretations and possiblyeven interpretations, of
interpretations.
Yeah, it's pretty cool, whichactually also circles back to
the original point that you madeabout influence.
Yeah, cool, all right.
Well, I'm going to say it's allover.
Your mission was a success.
Your lifestyle is not extreme.
(48:32):
Sorry, it's probably false, butit was funny in my head, so
next time, next time I'm goingto bring my deep thoughts about
reality bites.
My last one was breakfast club,so I'm kind of on this like Gen
.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
X.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Gen X coming of age.
Yeah, yeah, slice of life,movie kick.
So that's where I'm going.
Next, winona Ryder was like myself, like she was the one that
was going to play me in themovie for a long time, and I
haven't seen this movie again ina long time, so I'm looking
forward to.
It was one of the movies wewatched after I had that foot
(49:09):
surgery when I was 15.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Like, you came and sat in my bed with me and we
watched reality bites.
And then we might have watcheda couple others, but that's the
one I recall watching with you.
Yeah, so cool.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
All right, so that's what I'm bringing next time, and
I think you have someinteresting listening comments.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
There were a lot of comments about what made people
a reader after the Ann McCaffreyepisode so I thought it was
really cool that you were, thatI mean that you got to tell
McCaffrey in person like youmade me a reader and knowing
she's probably heard that from alot of people, but still it's
meaningful to you that you gotto say it to her and I wish I
(49:48):
could have said that to theperson who made me a reader.
But we were asking people likeyou know what made you a reader?
Andrew said what really made mea reader was a summer reading
program at our local publiclibrary where you earn points
not just for the number of booksbut also the length and
complexity.
I was in the young adult andadult sci-fi section by age 10
and racked up all sorts ofpoints.
(50:08):
I can't recall ever cashing themen.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
So Ray from Public Libraries.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
I also loved.
Ann had to say the firstchapter book I ever read on my
own was Basil of Baker Street byEve Titus and I know Ann Basil
of Baker Street is like about amouse detective and I know Ann
loves Shaw Combs, so I that fits.
I love that I never looked back.
Mrs Frisbee and the Rats of Nim, the Boxcar children and Maudi
(50:35):
in the middle are the threeearly ones I remember absolutely
loving and I've read MrsFrisbee and the Rats of Nim.
I'm familiar with the Boxcarchildren.
I've never read Maudi in themiddle.
So like got some books to read.
And then Barb, who is probablyabout 20 years older than us, I
think, said my first read fromstart to finish book was Heidi
and Black Beauty.
(50:55):
But it has been years since Ithought of that and I loved Ann
McCaffrey.
I read everything she had.
Me too, barb, me too.
So this has been super fun.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
I will see you next time.
See you next time, hey you,yeah you.
You're a deep thinker, I cantell.
Let's make it official.
Head on over to our website,guygirlsmediacom, and make sure
you don't miss a single deepthought.
You can get me and Emily inyour inbox every week.
(51:26):
What are you waiting for?
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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