April 30, 2024 • 69 mins
It’s a bird! It’s a plane! It’s an unreasonable hatred for Hackensack, New Jersey!
This week, Tracie brings her Deep Thoughts about the 1978 film Superman: The Movie. From the way this film helped legitimize comic books and superheroes as a valid art form to the huge influence Christopher Reeve’s Superman still has on our culture, this pillar of the Guy Girls’ childhood offers a lot to appreciate on a second look. But, not everything is rosy in Smallville and Metropolis, including the misogyny of Lois Lane’s inability to spell, despite being The Daily Planet’s best reporter, and a cavalier attitude about consent.
Retreat to your own personal Fortress of Solitude and take a listen.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
Today, I'll be sharing my deepthoughts about the 1978 film
Superman the movie with mysister, emily Guy-Burken, and
with you.
Let's dive in.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
(00:24):
just pop culture, what othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come over, think with us aswe delve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Okay, um, this was the originalsuperhero movie, christopher
(00:44):
Reeve, margot Kidder.
It was released before you wereborn.
But what do you know orremember about Superman the
movie?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
So, based on conversations you and I had
before we started recording, I'mrealizing that my memories of
Superman, the movie may be fromthe sequels.
Memories of superman, the moviemay be from the sequels,
because I remember things likehim reversing the uh, the
direction of the earth toreverse time oh yeah, that's in
superman one yes, that is in themovie okay, superman the movie
(01:16):
to save lois lane yeah so Iremember the fortress of
solitude.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I remember, like the three black clad aliens which I
think were in the sequel they'revery, very briefly in the
beginning, in the very beginningof superman, the movie, but yes
, they have no real role Iremember like being a kid and
knowing that marlon brando and Idon't I'm sure I didn't know
his name.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
I knew it was a big deal, that he was Jor-El, but I
didn't really get it, but I justknew that it was like dad was
tickled, yeah, and gosh, I mean,christopher Reeve set the
(02:00):
standard for Superman for me.
Yeah, so I think of and this isanother thing we mentioned
before we started recordingChristopher Reeve's life story
makes his portrayal and hisassociation with Superman so
much more poignant, and so Ialso find myself thinking about
(02:20):
that, and he seems like he wasquite a mensch.
And then there's the reallybizarre thing.
I cannot tell you whichsuperman movie it is, but
there's nuns on the eiffel tower.
Yeah, that's number two, that'sin superman 2, and so this is
long before today.
(02:40):
Tracy and I were talking abouthow because he like saves these
nuns the Eiffel Tower.
We both thought nuns lived intowers.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Totally.
I thought they lived on thosemicrowave towers.
Yes, how did the poor paper boyget their paper all the way up
there?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
And we were trying to figure out how exactly we came
to that conclusion, and I thinkit was like our mom said
something about how they liveaway from men, and then because
we saw them on a tower in thisfilm.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I was.
I was so surprised when yousaid that you had that like
association, because I totallydid.
I thought it was just me.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So it never occurred to me that you had it as well.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Likewise.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Same thing with the microwave tower Like I was just
cause I knew that one.
Like there's room up there forfor there to be like living
quarters.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Well, cause it looks.
It looks like they're littlehouses up there on those big.
Yeah, I man, I must, I re, Ican.
I can imagine like little likebaby Emily and baby Tracy in the
back of the car and like babyTracy being like, look, and
that's where the nuns live.
Obviously not Catholic children.
No, never actually met a nununtil I was an adult.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Well, like I didn't really understand why they
dressed the way, they did, whywould they need to be away from
men?
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Anyway, okay, we digress, we gotta digress Anyway
.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
So those are.
Those are.
Those are the things that Ithink of when it comes to
Superman, what I associate withthe character and the film.
The only other thing is that Ithink of Superman's real name,
kal-el and Jor-El.
They always remind me of thename of the Israeli airline, el
Al.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
El.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Al, and there are quite a few Israeli names that
end with the Al, and so, likeI've met people named El.
Yeah, which actually kind offits because the originator,
original writers and artistscreating Superman were Jewish.
So yeah.
Yeah, but that's something thatalways just sticks in my head.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yeah, yeah, there's actually a moment in Superman 2.
They're at Niagara Falls andSuperman like saves a kid who
has like fallen down.
He's like falling into thefalls and Superman saves him.
And like, in the background,you just hear people talking
about it like oh, he's such anice guy, I love him.
And then somebody goes oh, he'ssuch a nice guy, I love him.
And then somebody goes, ofcourse he's Jewish.
(05:08):
I had to back it up and replayit several times to make sure I
was actually hearing what Ithought I was hearing.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Anyway, yeah.
So those are my memories ofthis, which are very hazy.
But tell me, why are we talkingabout this today?
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yeah, so I started thinking about it again.
I think it was on our listmaybe, but I started thinking
about it again because of ourrecent episode with John Shore,
where we were talking aboutjournalists and reporters and so
I was thinking about Lois Laneand I was remembering this movie
and I remembered it reallyfondly.
It was something that like alot of the pieces of media that
(05:42):
we pick out for this project.
It's something that I associatewith watching with dad.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
we obviously watched a lot of movies with dad well,
he was a movie buff and he gaveus a very good film.
Education without, withoutmeaning to yeah, yeah yeah, also
that.
That is the one other thing.
There is that, I think, seniorphoto of dad from high school
where they like painted in alittle curl, oh yeah and uh, and
(06:07):
he looks like Clark Kent andit's because we never knew dad
with hair Right and dad likedthat.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Like the people thought he looked like Clark
Kent and he appreciated that andhe was like he was a journalist
and on the school paper and andall of that so like that.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
That's the other aspect that I I connect with.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
It is that that's journalism and like dad's
opinion of the daily planet as a, as a newspaper, and that sort
of thing, yeah, yeah, so I, Iit's been on my mind a little
bit because of that conversationwith, uh, with john shore, and
so I wanted to like go back andlook at it because I, like you,
kind of had hazy, fond but hazymemories and I realized actually
(06:47):
in rewatching it so that wecould talk about it, that, like
you, some of my memories werefrom sequels.
Superman two in particular, Ithink, was really in my memory.
But there were, there arethings from Superman one, so I,
I watched them both before westarted recording, and so I'd
like I'm going to focus onSuperman, the movie, but I may
bring in Superman to a littlebit.
(07:08):
I really want to think aboutkind of some of the, some of the
lessons that are embedded inSuperman that did or didn't make
it into the movie and kind ofin the zeitgeist, but but
specifically through the movie,through Christopher Reeve's
portrayal.
So I'm going to talk aboutstorytelling, about pacing,
(07:31):
about genre, fiction and oursuggestion that pop culture is
still culture and what thismovie did to kind of state that
stake, that claim.
I'm going to talk about romanceand some of the double entendre
that I totally missed when Iwas watching it in the 80s, and
maybe a little bit about genderas well, both femininity and
(07:54):
masculinity, uh, as we get itfrom from from superman.
So, but let me start with arecap of what happens.
So this film it seems clear tome that the movie makers really
did want to sort of state to theworld that comic books because
(08:16):
we didn't have the term graphicnovel, to kind of clean up the
comic book image back in 1978.
And these movie makers reallywanted to stake the claim that
comic books were solidstorytelling and worthy of full
attention.
And so they like, from the verybeginning, from the credits,
(08:36):
which have this kind of liketext treatment that's slightly
reminiscent of Star Wars, whichwas only a couple years old at
that point, and the score fromJohn Williams, which also feels
vaguely reminiscent of Star Wars, which was only a couple years
old at that point.
And the score from JohnWilliams, which also feels
vaguely reminiscent of Star Wars, frankly, marlon Brando's name
is the first one that comes inthe credits.
So you know, royalty when itcomes to moviemaking in 1978.
(08:59):
So, and he actually doesn'teven have that big a role, but
his name is first right, and thespecial effects, like.
Anyway, sorry, I was supposedto give a recap.
So from the very beginning, withMarlon Brando's name, and then
we cut to a comic book, a blackand white comic book that's
being flipped and a child'svoice reading it and talking
(09:19):
about what's going on in theDaily Planet, and it's 1938.
What's going on in the dailyplanet, and it's 1938.
And then we cut to Krypton, orKrypton, as Marlon Brando says
it, where there's a trialhappening, which rewatching this
movie has made me realize howmuch has derived from it,
because this trial reminds me alot of the trial at the
beginning of Lilo and Stitch.
(09:40):
So there's a trial happeningwith Marlon brando overseeing it
.
That's actually where we meetthe three villains who will show
up again in superman 2, butthey get sent off in this weird
little like album cover, uh likelike floating through space and
and and yelling um, and then wedon't see them again in this
movie.
Fast forward, apparently fastforward 10 years, although they
(10:01):
don't tell us that.
I kind of put that togetherthrough other things that are.
Apparently fast forward 10years, although they don't tell
us that.
I kind of put that togetherthrough other things that are
said Fast forward 10 years andMarlon Brando's Jarrell is
telling the rest of the councillike this planet is going to
explode and we need to evacuate.
And they're like, no, you'rebeing unreasonable, the planet
is just shifting its orbit,we're going to be fine.
(10:22):
The planet is just shifting itsorbit, we're going to be fine.
(10:51):
And they basically are like youneed to shut this down,
whatever you're saying now, orwe're going to lay on extreme
sanctions.
His baby son to survive theplanet's destruction with all of
the knowledge of the 28 knowngalaxies embedded in these
crystals.
So the baby.
Apparently it takes three yearsish to get from Krypton to Earth
and baby Kal-El crash lands inan Iowa field right in front of
(11:15):
the truck of the Kents.
And they realize, well, martha,clark Kent realizes that you
know, they've been praying for achild for so long and now here
he is and the dad is like that'scrazy, we can't keep him.
(11:36):
Did you see where he came from?
Who's like maybe four, five,somewhere in that range lifts
the truck after the dad ischanging a tire and the jack
breaks and the truck is going tofall and crush the man.
But the little baby Kal-Elsaves him.
So they decide that they needto keep him so fast forward.
(11:58):
Now it's 15 years later andClark is 18, 17, 18.
He's at a.
He's at a football game andhe's like the water boy and the
high school kids are like realmean to him.
He's got a crush on this girlbut the bully kind of manages to
drag her away and he runs homeand show.
(12:22):
And then we see the dad say youknow, don't show off.
We knew we needed to protectyou.
And so we get this sort ofsense that he needs to keep it a
secret, keep his powers asecret.
The dad says I know you're herefor a reason and it's not
football.
And so that's sort of wherewe're introduced to this like
(12:42):
sense that he's keeping, yeah,the alter ego, and the sense
that he needs to keep it secretfor his own safety.
Dad dies of a heart attack.
He feels terrible.
He's all these powers and hecouldn't save him.
And then in the middle of thenight, the crystal this crystal
that was in that was like one ofthe only things that survived
in the escape pod that the babywas found in calls to him from
(13:05):
the barn.
So he goes out and it's glowing, it's this green shard.
And he tells his mom I gotta go.
She's like I knew this day wascoming.
It's really bizarre.
He walks north like foreveruntil it's just snowy tundra,
(13:27):
tosses the green shard, reallyreally far.
It sinks down into the snow andthen Elsa's ice castle comes up
out of the snow.
I'm telling you, this isreminding me.
Um, I, I have a very vividmemory of the baby holding the
(13:48):
truck up yeah, with, like, thered cape like tied around his
waist, because the first scenehe's fully naked and we get a
full scene of this naked baby.
Oh, I while naked child.
I don't know that that wouldhappen if this movie were made
today, yeah, anyway.
So elsa's ice palace comes up,that, and then when he goes in,
(14:10):
he like figures out to like movesome crystals into these little
tubes, and then that activatessomething.
And then there's there's marlonbrando, again sort of
explaining who he is and tellinghim, telling him his name,
which he's never, he has neverknown.
And that's where we get thefact that this is the fortress
(14:32):
of solitude.
Marlon brando tells him in thisfortress of solitude, I will
teach you.
And then we are told that hetakes a 12 year educational
journey with dad to learn all ofthe knowledge of krypton, and
(14:53):
then he gets a job at the dailyplanet it feels like a letdown
it's it's yeah, the pacing isreally really interesting.
Like it's like it's it's yeah,the pacing is really really
interesting.
Like it's like a full hour intothe movie before we see him in
(15:17):
the costume.
Wow, the origin story and theIowa farm boy and Superman is
casting because we have adifferent actor playing young
Clark, oh, and then he shows upat the Daily Planet on his first
day as Christopher Reeve.
Wow, so it's actually adifferent actor playing young
(15:39):
Clark.
So it's his first day at theDaily Planet.
So it's his first day at thedaily planet.
He's like very shy and clumsyand awkward.
So it's still this six footfour, like gorgeous hunk of man,
but he's got the glasses on andhe's like constantly like
pushing them up in this awkwardsort of way and he's like gosh,
(15:59):
I don't know, I don't know, andit's 1978, but he still says
things like swell, which Loiscalls him on.
He's asks Perry White, thechief of the Daily Planet, if he
can please have his page halfof his paycheck sent to this
address.
And she says oh, he's probablyhaving it.
She says first Lois says that'syour bookie, right?
And Clark doesn't evenunderstand what she means.
(16:21):
And then she says, oh, no, nocourse You're having it sent to
your white haired old mom.
And Clark looks at her and saysactually she's sort of silver
haired.
It's just like so adorableAnyway.
So meanwhile the bad guy is LexLuthor, who is his diablo, gene
Hackman, isn't it?
Gene Hackman as Lex Luthor.
(16:42):
He's brilliant, brilliant, Imean like really brilliant.
And ned baity is his veryineffective and just not smart
minion they live in like sort ofa flooded out subway station
that he's got all decked outreally fancy and he has this
diabolical plan.
He's got all decked out reallyfancy and he has this diabolical
(17:06):
plan.
He's buying up all this land inthe desert, in the Sonoran
Desert, sonoran, in theCalifornia desert.
And he has this plan he's goingto have a nuclear warhead like
a missile sent into the SanAndreas Fault which will make
half of California, everythingwest of the San Andreas Fault,
which will make like half ofCalifornia, everything west of
the San Andreas Fault, fall intothe sea and make his property
(17:30):
now beachfront property and muchmore valuable.
This is his plan.
This is the diabolical planthat Superman's going to have to
thwart.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
I feel like I'm reminded of there's a Bugs Bunny
cartoon showing him like takinga saw to Florida and just
cutting it off.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
It's very cartoon logic, totally, totally so we
see Lex Luthor's diabolical plan.
Meanwhile Lois is, she is justall about the job.
She just wants the story always, always, always.
So she's taking a flight in ahelicopter that the newspaper is
(18:13):
providing what, uh?
To go meet the the president.
He's coming to metropolis,which is very clearly new york
city, like they don't evenpretend it's not new york city
but they call it metropolis.
And like a very basic pretendit's not New York City but they
call it Metropolis.
And like a very basic mistakeit's not.
Foul play happens and thehelicopter, like is, loses
control and is kind of like halfhanging off of the top of this
(18:35):
skyscraper.
It's the skyscraper of thedaily planet.
So Clark is leaving and Lois'shat falls in front of him and he
looks up and sees what'shappening and then he's like you
know, he's got a saver, so hegoes and there's.
Superman was so wellestablished already that the
movie makers were able to sharethese little jokes with us.
It great like he looks at thisphone booth, which is one of
(18:56):
those ones that's just like ahalf like, like it's not an
actual booth.
So reeve is able to like kindof like look at the camera
almost with a, with a smile orlike a.
You know he's not gonna changein there, so he changes in a
revolving door, saves loisis,saves the helicopter.
(19:16):
That's when he first sort ofreveals himself really to the
world.
Lois asks who he is.
He says a friend.
And that's how then later he'sable to sort of slip her a note
like meet me, I'll be at yourplace at seven.
Signed a friend.
So she's there for an interview.
Find a friend, so she's therefor an interview.
(19:38):
This is the scene that has likea lot more sexual innuendo than
I picked up on as a child.
So of course a reporter has,you know, a penthouse apartment
with this giant like balcony,you know, like with a garden of
course.
So she's there waiting for him.
Maybe she has family money, youdon't know, sure, sure.
(20:00):
He shows up.
She says let's just start withsome demographics, like how big
are you?
And then she says, I mean, Imean how tall.
And then they're you knowthey're talking.
She's asking him all thesequestions.
And then she says somethinglike is it true you can see
through anything?
And he says, yeah, actuallythat is true.
And she says what colorunderwear am I wearing?
So there's like she is layingit on real thick and she's
(20:23):
dressed much more feminine thanwe've seen her today.
She's not always all about thejob.
Well, when Superman is involved?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
she's not, and can you blame her?
I I mean other than the wearingthe underwear on the outside
yeah, christopher reeves in that, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
So we also learn one of his weaknesses he can't see
her underwear because she'sstanding in front of a planter
that's made of lead I what,anyway.
So he can't see through lead.
But then she walks a little bitaway and he goes pink, and then
she asks him if he likes pink.
He does anyway, uh.
(21:08):
So this scene sort ofestablishes the chemistry
between them, and I believed it.
It Honestly I really did.
Shenanigans ensue, and LexLuthor really is brilliant
Figures out that kryptonite willtake away his powers, steals a
(21:29):
meteor, a meteorite that is inAddis Ababa, so that he can use
it to basically take Superman'spowers, not for himself, but
just remove them from Supermanand make him vulnerable.
So, lex and his, he has twominions a woman who he always
calls by her last name isTessmacher, and then Otis, who
(21:52):
is Ned Beatty, and they managedto change the coordinates for
there's going to be a test ofnuclear missiles.
And they changed thecoordinates for their
destination with this veryhigh-pitched message that no one
(22:13):
aside from a dog could hearexcept for superman, and then
tricks him into opening a the alead container that contains the
kryptonite, tosses him in hispool, which is really just sort
of a flooded lobby of thissubway station, and the nuclear
weapons are already on their way, one to the san andreas fault
(22:34):
and the other to hackensack, newjersey.
Well, miss tessa mockers, testmockers mom lives in hackensack
and she says that to lex and helooks at her and he looks at his
watch and he just shakes hishead like no, she does, she
doesn't anymore, or somethinglike that.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
So why hackensack new jersey?
Speaker 1 (22:51):
because there needed to be a reason for miss test.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Mocker to betray lex okay there is no like there is
no other there's no, no reasongiven it yeah, just like luther
did not like, doesn't likehackensack.
Yeah, you know, after I went toelizabeth new jersey for the
first time and I was like 10when we were leaving, I was was
like if I never come back toElizabeth New Jersey in my life,
(23:17):
it'll be too soon.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Well, apparently Lex felt that way about Hackensack.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
I think the number of towns in New Jersey that people
feel that way about is higherper capita than most states.
But anyway, continue.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
So Ms Tasmacher decides to save him so that he
will save her mom.
And then there's this weirdmoment where she like pulls him
out of the pool and it's goingto take the.
The meteorite is on like a bigold chain around his neck and
she's going to take it off, butthen she hesitates and then
kisses him and then takes it offand he says why did you kiss me
(23:53):
first?
And she says well, I didn'tthink you let me after I took it
off.
And he says why did you kiss mefirst?
And she says well, I didn'tthink you let me after I took it
off.
And he reaches out and cups hercheek and then leaves.
She makes him promise I knowit's really weird, so we can dig
into that for a minute.
She makes him promise that hewill save her mom first and he's
like but, but Lois, but Jimmy.
And she's like you have topromise me and I know you'll
(24:16):
keep your word because you neverlie.
So he flies off in thedirection of Hackensack and,
like, redirects the missile intoouter space and then he turns
tail and heads over toCalifornia.
He saves some kids in a schoolbus on the Golden Gate Bridge
(24:40):
which is about to fall.
He saves Jimmy Olsen who's atthe Hoover Dam which is busting
because, like these hugeearthquakes, because the missile
hit the fault, huge earthquakeseverywhere.
Like you know, towns are likewhole towns are, are threatened
(25:00):
by rivers that are, you know,sort of busting through and the
and because of the dam.
So he's, he's all overCalifornia saving stuff.
Meanwhile Lois is driving and anew fault Like she, she's
running out of gas.
She pulls into a gas stationwhen the earthquakes start
because of the missile and thewhole gas station just explodes.
(25:21):
So she drives off, she's gotvery little gas.
Telephone poles are you knowelectric poles are falling on
the road around her.
She's driving around them.
It's very scary and she's likepulling through.
And then a new fault opens upand she has no gas and the car
just falls in and then likeavalanche, dirt falling into the
(25:42):
car and she suffocatesbasically.
So by the time he gets to hershe's already gone.
He pulls the car out, he pullsher out and he's devastated,
crying like, gently holding herdead body, and is like no, and
like flies up into space andthat's the thing you remember.
(26:04):
He flies around really, really,really, really fast around the
globe and like changes the orbit.
While he's doing this, by theway, while he's doing this, by
the way, he's hearing both hisEarth dad saying you were here
for something special, and hiskrypton, kryptonite dad, marlon
(26:24):
Brando, saying you are forbiddenfrom interfering in the goings
on on Earth.
So he's hearing both of thosethings and he decides to go with
his earth dad and he changesthe rotation of the earth to
turn back time by maybe 10minutes or so, and then turns
(26:45):
the rotation back, which evenkitchen table logic doesn't work
.
Like I'm willing to suspend mydisbelief for a comic book movie
, but even just like time is notrelated to the rotation of the
Earth.
I mean it is.
That's how we mark it, butthat's not how it actually flows
.
Like I think if you change therotation of the Earth, you would
(27:08):
kill everything on it.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
That's, I can remember like Dad saying like
yeah, everything would fly offthe earth if you change the
rotation, and like I don'tremember exactly how he came to
that conclusion, but I was justlike yeah, it was even as a kid.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yeah, it does not hold up to even a little bit of
scrutiny.
It's up there with why hack andsack?
Yeah, ok, it's ineffable.
So it works.
And he, he.
But then he has to.
We do see the sort of zip oflight that is superman, like
putting the rotation back in theright direction.
And then he goes back to findlois, that fault that she had
(27:52):
fallen into no longer exists.
He's like, are you okay?
And she's like, yeah, no,thanks to you.
And so that is, you know,resolved that in order to stop
(28:12):
california from falling off theface of the map.
He actually flies down into theearth's magma and like pushes
up a plate or something like youjust see like lots of like gold
, red orange around him, whilehe's like pushing something up.
So I, I even forgot about that.
That was, that was before hechanged the rotation of the
earth.
(28:32):
So he delivers lex and otis toa prison and says warden, please
keep these two here until theycan sit trial.
We see, because that's how theuh the justice system works.
yeah, yeah, well, yeah, yeah.
(28:56):
And we do see lois, toward theend, be like where was clark and
sort of say you know they'renever in the same place at the
same time.
Nah, that's the craziest ideayou've ever had loisis Lane.
We do see Clark get friendzoned again by Lois.
(29:16):
So that's Superman the movie.
So I feel like I'm forgettingthe very end of it, but I'm just
going to go with it.
So some of the things I want totalk about, I want to talk
about gender.
Lois is the only I want to talkabout gender Superman, like you
(29:37):
know well, there's in some waysthere is this test marker.
Yeah, that's true that is true,and Martha Kent is kind of
furniture, yeah, so it does notpass the Bechtel test, sure.
So so I want to talk aboutgender.
I do want to talk briefly aboutconsent, because of that scene
(29:57):
with him and Ms Tessmacher.
I want to talk about the pacingtoo in this sort of original
superhero movie and thestorytelling piece of it.
Yeah, and then we'll see whereour conversation goes.
So we'll start with gender.
You're right, lois is not theonly woman in this film and
there are other, like extras,even in the newsroom.
(30:18):
She's not even the only womanin the newsroom, she's just the
only one.
She's the only actual player,like everybody else is
non-player characters in thenewsroom.
They're just sort of backgroundextras.
There is martha kent, there isalso I don't even know if she
has a name, but his kryptonite,his krypton mom, is also briefly
(30:38):
in the film.
But interesting actually, I'mgoing to stay with the mom
because we're given her.
She's holding baby Kal-El inthose early scenes where Jel is
talking about how they're goingto save their son and that's the
only hope.
(30:58):
And then when he actuallybuilds the or he doesn't build
it but causes the fortress ofsolitude to grow and meets
marlon, brando's jararell mom isnowhere to be seen.
So he's sharing, you know, allof the secrets of the universe,
(31:21):
but it's very much father to son, not parents to son, father to
son, so that there's some.
There's interesting genderdynamics there which then I
mentioned before we startedrecording.
I'll just name it quickly here.
Like in terms of happy accidentin Superman two, apparently I
(31:44):
mean, I don't know onespeculates they couldn't afford
the $3 million that they paidMarlon Brando again, and so the
mom actually does show uprepeatedly in the Fortress of
Solitude and self-identifies asthe archivist of the Krypton
people.
So because we couldn't afforddad, I guess mom actually gets
(32:07):
to be like an important femalerole model Agency yeah.
So I mean I guess I'm glad wegot there so.
So there's something reallytraditionally gendered about
that transfer of knowledge whichis downright christian in some
(32:30):
of it.
Like jarell says somethingabout like sending his only son
when because the mom is like why, earth, they're so far behind
us, they're so primitive, and hesays something about how, you
know, then his gifts will be putto good use and I'm giving them
my only son, which I also didnot pick up on as a kid.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
That's.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
That's really interesting, particularly
considering the fact that theoriginal artists and creators
were Jewish Siegel, and JerrySiegel and Joe Schuster were the
originators of.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
The Superman punched Nazis originally.
It was very intentionallyJewish, like punched nazis
originally, like this that was.
It was very intentionallyjewish for those who recognized
it.
Yeah, yeah yeah, so that'sthat's interesting, that then
that the end, like you get anychosen one stories, it's going
(33:30):
to be, there's gonna havechristianity, yeah, um, I mean
you get that with the matrix,but I just I find that really
interesting, considering I someof this is because, like because
I do know that Superman is astory rooted in American Judaism
(33:51):
, or at least American Jewishexperience, american Judaism, or
at least American Jewishexperience.
American Jewish experience oflike the early 20th century in
the buildup to World War II, solike I think of it as hours, so
like that.
That's part of why I'm justlike but but but why would you
(34:12):
do that?
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's just one moment, but yeah,
yeah.
So that transfer of knowledge,very much father to son, though
fast forward to 1978 and thenewsroom of the Daily Planet and
(34:38):
we have Perry White as thechief he is the head there, male
, but Lois is the undeniable andexplicitly named best reporter.
She has some trouble spelling,apparently.
We're shown that she misspellsthings often Mm-hmm, possibly
(35:12):
subverting that knowledge fromso father to son.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
I find that okay.
The fact that she is likeundeniably self-identified and
identified by others as the bestwriter, the best reporter in
the newsroom, is kind of likethe give with one hand, like
yeah, here you go.
But then the fact that shestruggles with spelling, which
is often a coded morality,because people who are good at
(35:42):
spelling consider themselves tobe morally superior to people
who are not, and so it's likelike she's hot but clumsy, yeah,
like you can still feelsuperior to her.
Yeah, yeah, definitely, which Ilike.
I find that just reallyinteresting, because my first
thought was like oh, that'sgreat that they have her, that
she struggles with spelling,because like that's, you know,
(36:04):
it's just a brain quirk, andlike like in 1978 it was harder,
like you know, you don't havespell check on typewriters, but
you know, whatever, it's not abig deal.
It's just like the english isfreaking weird and we have weird
spellings of things, and likethat's why you have editors.
But that's not what it was.
Like I know that's not whatthey were doing.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Like they were not, like no, you're exactly right,
you're exactly right, you'reexactly right.
And because she's constantlysort of asking people how do you
spell um?
And, like part of the, thehumor of the first first, she's
writing an ode to spring and shesays to Jimmy how do you spell
massacre?
Speaker 2 (36:42):
And that's a weird word because it's from the
French there's like it shouldhave a K in it.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
She also asks him is there one T or two in
bloodletting in her ode tospring?
So, or two in bloodletting inher ode to spring?
Speaker 2 (36:59):
So why are they assigning the best reporter an
ode to spring.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Well, it actually ends up being a story about a
serial rapist, but Harry letsher know there's only one P in
rapist.
So yeah, no, you're exactlyright with what was happening,
with the fact that she's bad atspelling.
She's cute but clumsy.
That's exactly it.
That's exactly it.
Yeah, yeah.
So she is very much are notlike other girls, feminist hero
(37:33):
she is.
She has no peers as a femalewriter and you know she's a
pulitzer prize winner orstriving to be, and she's also.
She's also.
You know you said I thinkbefore we started recording you
were like is it margo kidder?
I get her mixed up with karenallen.
She is very much like marionfrom indiana jones and the and
(37:58):
the raiders of the lost ark.
She's got this abrasiveness andthis sort of like rough edge to
her.
She's which makes her worldly.
That's what.
There's a worldliness to herthat is kind of hard-nosed and
(38:20):
helps define her as this goodjournalist.
But she has no peers and thereis a certain degree of when I'm
thinking about gender and theperformance of gender, there is
a certain degree of masculinecoding to her, or at least less
feminine.
She's mostly wearing trousers,not exclusively in the newsroom.
(38:45):
She does wear like a skirt suit, but it's a suit, though when
she's meeting Superman it's thislike flowy sheer with a
underslip kind of a dress.
So we see sort of theperformance of gender based on
to like how she wants to beperceived, which reads as true,
(39:11):
you know.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Well, that that reminds me of something we were
talking about with the X-Filesin the first few seasons,
gillian Anderson as Scully wore.
Now some of it had to do withearly nineties fashions but she
wore like kind of boxy clothing.
But that actually fit with thecharacter in that, you know,
she's five foot two and anattractive woman who came into
(39:37):
law enforcement from a weirddirection and like what was in
medicine, which is also maledominated.
So, to be taken seriously, shewears very severe clothing.
Yeah, so like that that.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
That fits in a way like that is just it's helpful
thinking about.
Like you know, we also justrecently talked about the fifth
element and how, like everywoman you see is just cleavage
forward, yeah, and so like it's.
Actually, this is a morerealistic portrayal of women in
that we have to dress for thesituation often yeah, dress for
(40:17):
the situation often yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
So, while we're talking about that, though,
let's talk about costuming andClark slash Superman, right
Cause, like, one of the thingsthat you point out is he's
wearing his underwear on theoutside.
But I think, I mean, he was theguy that gave us superheroes in
(40:42):
tights, you know, but I'mreally like wrestling with this.
You know, like, in some ways,christopher Reeve as Clark Kent
in a three-piece suit is moremasculine than Christopher Reeve
in a unitard with underwear anda belt on the outside.
But that is not at all themessage that we are given.
Right, three-piece suit.
Clark Kent is like Milk toast,totally milk toast and treated
(41:08):
that way by Lois.
She barely looks at him.
That's how we believe that shedoesn't see the resemblance,
because she barely sees him.
He's furniture.
He's a nice guy, you know, buthe's not someone that she would
be interested in sexually.
And then there's this guy.
I mean, I suppose there is themasculinity of the form,
(41:32):
fittingness of the unitard, sothat we can actually see the
muscles in his thighs, we cansee the muscles in his chest.
I mean, especially laterversions of Superman and Batman,
where they actually, like, havethe molded body armor to, like
give more muscular definitionwhere it exists.
Christopher Reeve didn't havethe benefit of all that.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Well, christopher Reeve didn't have the benefit of
all that.
No, well, it's interestingbecause like that seems more
like sexually interesting in aqueer coded way rather than
heterosexual coded way.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Agreed, agreed, though you know there is no hint
of that.
Oh, no, no, in this movie he isthe object of sexual attention
and desire from women, not justLois and not just Miss
Tessmacher, I mean.
There's not even a hint thatqueer people exist in this movie
(42:28):
.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Yeah, yeah Well, they weren't invented until 1986.
Obviously.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Oscar Wilde notwithstanding.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Rocky Horror Picture Show notwithstanding.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
So there's something like really interesting about
what we as a culture understoodto be masculine when thinking
about Clark Kent versus well,the two costumes, yeah, and how
he is received and supermancries when lois dies, he does.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Does clark kent ever tear up?
Speaker 1 (43:08):
like clark doesn't have.
Yes, yes, that's a differentactor, though, remember that's a
different actor.
Yeah, clark kent doesn't havemuch of a personality, to be
honest.
Yeah, I mean he's.
I think not that superman doeseither.
Honestly, I think christopherreed does a better job than I
remember.
Like in my memory he's verystiff.
He's not.
(43:28):
Yeah, he's not.
He actually, I think, does apretty good job and I think
there was sort of a directorialchoice to cause he's.
He's a symbol, I mean he'sfighting for truth, justice in
the American way, for God's sake.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
So, like a symbol, doesn't have feelings.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Well, and also you know, just within the world of
the story.
Well, and also you know, justwithin the world of the story,
clark Kent having not much of apersonality, is protective
coloration?
Yes, like that ensures that noone is paying close attention to
him.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Yes, yes, you know it's interesting too.
At one moment in the firstmovie, as Clark, he's supposed
to have a date with her rightafter Superman's interview with
the how big are you?
Question.
So he shows up in his suit andhe's like I thought I was going
to take you out.
And she goes to change.
(44:28):
And so he's in her living room,he takes the glasses off and
his comportment changes and he'slike you know, lois, I was
thinking, and he's clearly goingto tell her who he is.
And then he thinks better of itand puts his glasses back on
and decides to maintain thefiction.
So, you know, there's this liketeasing, there's this teasing
(44:55):
of him having these feelings.
We know there is real chemistrybetween him and Lois and this
bizarre triangle, which isactually not a triangle, but
they, they treat it as one.
I mean, lois is like don't bejealous of him.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
You know you could never live up to him.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
She actually says that yeah, yeah, there's
something, I don't know.
There's something really reallyfascinating about that, that
triangle, that then when wethink about the lessons that
it's giving us, when I bringSuperman two into it which I'm
not going to bring it in for toolong but there's a moment in
Superman two where he actuallyvoluntarily gives up his powers
(45:34):
so that he can be with Lois.
She knows who he is and hewants to be with her.
He loves her, she loves himback, and so he voluntarily
gives up his powers.
And in the scene where they dothat the special effect that
they do, there's like a ghost ofan image of him in the Superman
suit that stays in the chamberthat took the powers away and
kind of like slumps against thewall and then Clark, in just
(45:54):
regular 1978 clothes, walks outof the chamber.
And I think in superman 2 inparticular, one of the things
that roger ebert saidbeautifully is in his
contemporaneous review is thatthe heart of the disguise was
not the glasses, it was thebehavior, was the personality,
(46:17):
and so part of the lesson isthat we all have a Superman
inside us, which is really nice.
That's just a really nicelesson.
It also reads so much morepoignant now knowing that
Christopher Reeve lost hispowers later in his life from
(46:40):
the accident that left himparaplegic.
So re-watching that scene insuperman 2 when he gives up his
powers and sort of superman isleft in the chamber, I don't
know it.
It really tugged at myheartstrings in a different way
because of Christopher Reeve'sstory.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
That's a bit of an aside, but I just thought I'd
mention it.
Well, that's one of the thingslike it's a consistent through
line in a lot of ourconversations is where we end up
conflating the actor and therole, and it's because often the
actor becomes the role in ourhearts and minds.
So like Christopher Reeve isSuperman to me, so like Henry
(47:23):
Cavill has played him and DeanCain has played him and Tom
Welling has played him and likethere's so many other actors
who've played him and well, butthey are not Superman.
To me, christopher Reeve is andwill always be Superman.
That is the image that I willalways see of who he looks like,
(47:48):
what he is.
That Anthony Hopkins isHannibal Lecter, even though
that character has been recastseveral times.
And so, considering the factthat Superman isn't so much a
character as a symbol, and thenthere is this very, very
symbolic loss of power for thatactor who seems like, from what
(48:14):
I understand, I remember readingstories about half after the
accident, um, he and RobinWilliams were like roommates at
Juilliard or something like that.
And so Robin Williams came tovisit him and made him laugh,
which is like also knowing theend of Robin Williams's life.
Like it just, it just tugs at myheartstrings thinking about how
(48:37):
, like this man who brought somuch joy and who ended his life
with with this horrible despair,and this man who stood for
truth, justice, the American way, and seemed to always, when
given a choice, do the best hecould and the right thing, that
they found comfort together inlaughter after a horrible
(49:00):
accident.
I mean, it's just, it's.
It's like I wouldn't believe itif it were fiction, but there
is something so poignant aboutit and it's the reason why we
tell these stories.
Yeah, about it, and it's thereason why we tell these stories
.
It's a lot closer to home herethan if it had been, you know, a
(49:21):
different actor who'd had thathorrendous accident, or you know
, you know if there had beenother, a different situation.
But we tell these stories so wecan make sense of those moments
and have have like that momentof connection and like this is
what it's like, this is what itfeels like there's something
comforting too, and and resonantin the idea that superman is
(49:44):
still superman, even with theoutest powers yes right that for
christopher reeve, right likethere's something I think, in
that and and for for us.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
That's actually not what the movie says in Superman
2.
He goes back and gets hispowers back, yeah, but you know,
in sort of the broader contextthere is something of that in
Christopher Reeve's life.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
He's still Superman, even without his powers.
Life, it makes it clear to methat you know, the ability to
walk and being able-bodied isnot what makes someone a man.
Yeah, amen, because what a man.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Amen, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
And to go from like he was cast because look at him,
yeah.
From like he was cast becauselook at him, yeah To.
I am impressed by who he waswhen you know something that all
of us would be afraid of hashappened to him.
Yeah, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
So you wanted to talk a little bit about consent so
you wanted to talk a little bitabout consent.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Oh yeah, just briefly .
I mean that it it doesn't comeup.
Really, you know, lois is kindof putting the moves on him.
Never really happens.
He's kind of put as clark, he'skind of putting the moves on
lois very clumsily.
It never really happens.
We do see them actuallyconsummate off screen their
relationship in Superman 2, butin Superman 1, never.
So it really only comes up inthis moment with Miss Tessmacher
(51:22):
and it's really interestingthat it happens in that
direction with a woman.
You know sort of kissing him,kissing a man without consent.
You know sort of kissing him,kissing a man without consent.
And it's interesting hisresponse.
He's not angry at first, he'sjust confused and then when she
(51:47):
says, because I didn't think youlet me like the way he just
tenderly sort of cups her cheekand chin, like it's clearly a
nonverbal kind of empathy andforgiveness which is I don't
know what to do with it.
(52:07):
I don't, I don't know ultimately, like I don't know that the
movie makers actually wanted usto take too much from it, but
overthinking is what we do.
Yeah, I don't know what I moviemakers actually wanted us to
take too much from it, butoverthinking is what we do.
I don't know what lesson I got,like little baby Tracy watching
this, right, I was two whenthis movie came out.
I'm sure I didn't see it when Iwas two, but so I saw it when I
was six.
(52:28):
You know something in thatrange, right?
So what did little baby Tracytake away from that moment?
It like it doesn't, it doesn'tfeel good, right, like there's.
Not that, the not that TessMocker found him attractive, not
that she even wanted to kisshim, that's all right but that
(52:50):
she used while he was completelyincapacitated, hesitated to
remove.
When, when people are going todie.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
Including her mother, so that she could kiss him.
And then there's this likemoment of understanding between
them.
That makes it okay and I thinkthere's almost a humor in it
because it is a woman as theperpetrator, aggressor, yeah, as
(53:24):
the aggressor in this lack ofconsensual touching there's.
There's because of thatflipping of the, of the typical,
well, it becomes humorous,which is standard.
That's like, yeah, well-wornroof, and there are.
There are also, like back to myconversations about masculinity
(53:45):
.
There are also things then to besaid about lex, who is her
boyfriend.
I mean, it's a, it's a weirdass relationship, but they they
do seem to be have some sort ofromantic connection.
So there's a, there's a a levelof cuckolding in her going
after superman, who is lex'srival.
(54:07):
He's the one who put him in thepool with the kryptonite.
So there are all these layersto that, one kind of throwaway
moment that was really justadded nothing to the story.
Yeah, I mean, she needed tobetray Lex.
That's why the thing was goingto Hackett's act, because we
needed a way for him, forSuperman, to get out of this
(54:28):
predicament and she was theticket out.
But that whole piece wasgratuitous and I'm not.
I'm not comfortable with whatwas undergirding it.
You know.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
Yeah, it's, it's a really bizarre.
I'm thinking about the actresswho plays Ms Tessmacher.
Is she like conventionallyattractive?
Yes, okay, very much so, causethat's, that's like part of what
I'm thinking like with him,like cupping her cheek, it feels
like, well, yeah, I get it LikeI affect everyone this way, you
(55:07):
know, if it's like likeLucifer's response, yeah, in the
TV show, so like it's not yourfault, honey, don't worry.
Yeah, this is what I'mwondering.
I'm wondering how that wouldhave played differently if she
weren't conventionallyattractive.
Speaker 1 (55:22):
Actually you're reminding me.
There's another scene that Iwant to put in conversation with
this.
There's a scene when they'reworking on trying to reset the
coordinates for the to go to theSan Andreas fault, they
distract the sailors andsoldiers who are driving this
thing in the desert by staging acar accident.
And then she is lying on theground in like next to this car
(55:46):
that's.
That's totally destroyed, as ifshe'd been thrown from it.
And so all these soldiers comeup and she's like lying there
and he's like check a pulse.
And the one soldier says to thecommanding officer like what do
we do, sir?
He said, well, call anambulance and until it gets here
, I recommend chest massages andmouth to mouth.
And the soldier's like allright.
(56:07):
And then the commandingofficer's like no, I'll do it, I
won't ask a soldier to dosomething that I won't do.
And so the commanding officerkneels down next to her prone
body, has the soldiers like ringaround the two of them and then
says about face, so they'refacing away and blocking our
view of what he's doing on theground to her.
(56:29):
And then we just see her laterlike she's, she's cool, like she
shows up in the the part of thewhole scheme, like lex is
driving the ambulance that comesand picks her up, and so we
don't actually see anythinghappen, but like the implication
that these soldiers are, likesuper duper, excited to perform
(56:51):
cpr and mouth to mouth on thisunconscious woman.
Yeah, that happens before thescene with the dubious consent
kiss, not dubious,non-non-consensual kiss.
So yes, she is absolutelyconventionally attractive, very
much so, and her body has beenused as distraction and bait
(57:20):
sort of earlier in the film,which I didn't.
I wasn't thinking about untilyou just asked about her looks.
Speaker 2 (57:27):
Yeah, Well, and then that also puts the conversation
of those two scenes like.
That makes it interesting thatSuperman's response is like
forgiveness and acceptance.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
I'm not sure.
I mean he doesn't know that, hedoesn't know that that happened
.
Speaker 2 (57:49):
Yeah, no.
No.
No, I'm not saying but theaudience does, but it does sort
of add to the conversation.
Speaker 1 (57:51):
Yeah we do for sure, Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (57:56):
I mean, and some of it is like it's a 45-year-old
movie and like we didn't havethese conversations about
consent back then, but it's alsolike you got to think about,
like they had to put that inthere Now.
I mean, some of it is they putextra stuff to make the ticking
(58:16):
clock even louder and, you know,maybe like that's another, like
establishing his heterosexualbona fides, since he is wearing
tights.
He is wearing tights, but it is.
It's.
It's bizarre.
Like what were were theythinking?
Like why did they think theyput this in there?
Speaker 1 (58:33):
Yeah, Like yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:34):
I mean like relief, like it's just very bizarre.
Speaker 1 (58:37):
I suspect it's the cuckolding piece of it.
Okay, like the additional waybizarre.
Speaker 2 (58:42):
I suspect it's the cuckolding piece of it.
Okay, like the additional wayto make it entirely clear that
superman, superman is the betterman?
Speaker 1 (58:46):
yes, that's what I think, yeah, yeah.
Well, we've been talking for along minute now, so I hope I can
remember everything we talkedabout, but you'll help me out
here.
Yeah, so there's a lot going onin this movie.
(59:08):
I think the the easiest thing,the least complicated thing to
talk about is the way in whichthis movie started the trend of
superhero films being sort ofmainstream, like it's not just
for the geeks anymore.
In fact, what is it like?
(59:28):
80% of the films made now aresuperhero movies.
I know it's not really 80%.
Please don't correct me.
It feels like 80%.
Yeah, you don't need to correctme, I know it's not actually
80%.
Speaker 2 (59:38):
It's 72.
Speaker 1 (59:40):
It's a lot, it's a lot, it's a lot and,
interestingly though, there isso much that is derivative of
this movie.
In many ways it is verydifferent than the comic book
movies that we get now,especially in terms of the
pacing and the storytelling.
I feel like we always start inthe middle of a battle now, like
(01:00:02):
the establishing scene isalways some big action scene,
now With humor.
That was not the case in thisfilm.
The pacing almost feels tooslow, to be honest, like we
don't see the blue uniform, theblue tights, until like a full,
I don't know know 45 minutes oran hour into the film, which is
(01:00:24):
really fascinating.
Looking backward, this moviestaked the claim that comic book
storytelling should be takenseriously, as serious as marlon
brando, as serious as a scorefrom john williams.
There's interesting things tolook back on about gender, both
with lois lane and and actuallywith miss tess mocker as sort of
(01:00:49):
a prize and a proof of arivalry lois showed us very
realistically, which also Ithink is a is a point in this
movie Like metropolis is NewYork city.
They fly around the statue ofLiberty, like it is New York
city and there's not sort of thegritty comic book graphic
(01:01:12):
depiction of street scenes.
They look like street scenesand we see I can't like the
Coca-Cola sign from oh no,that's in, that's in series,
that's in the second one, we butwe see sort of iconic images of
New York.
It does not feel like analternate universe, it feels
like our universe and LoisLane's costume reflects that as
well, and the ways in which shesort of masculinizes when she's
(01:01:37):
working and feminizes when she'strying to have a date with
Superman.
There's also interesting thingswith gender presentation around
Clark Kent versus Supermancostumes.
Right In ways that, looking atit with today's eyes, superman's
(01:01:57):
costume looks sort of queercoded, with the like access to
his bulging muscles well visual,the only thing that bulges but
that was not at all.
In fact, as you point out, likewe're given pretty clear
(01:02:18):
heterosexual bona fides herethat he is, you know he's a
woman's man.
Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
Yeah, it's all about the ladies.
Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
Yeah yeah, ll Cool Superman.
Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
What did you say?
Ll Cool Superman.
Ladies love Cool Superman.
Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
Yeah, there's a lot of sexual innuendo.
The little baby tracy totallymissed.
And then there's this weird Iput these two scenes in
conversation around consentwhere and miss test mocker,
where she is used as bait andjust has to lie there where
these, while these soldiers giveher cpr and mouth to mouth and
(01:03:00):
then then also holds Supermanincapacitated for longer than
necessary so that she may givehim a kiss because she knew he
wouldn't let her if she didn't,which is was a gratuitous scene
and with today's eyes, is gross.
Yeah, I am sure I forgotsomething.
Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
well, just a little bit about how it leans into the
idea of superman as as a jesusfigure with uh with, yeah, some
language yeah, language, um, andhow that feels very weird
knowing the, the the jewishorigins yeah, the american
jewish origins of of superman oh, I also forgot.
Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
We're given lois as a very competent, exceptional
writer, but then that's takenaway a little bit when we're
shown that she has trouble withbasic spelling, so that I think
your analysis of that is reallyspot on that.
That allows us to continue tofeel superior to her.
Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
Yeah, my realization, cause I've always been a good
speller and, like I, definitelybought into that moral
superiority.
Until sometime in grad school,I think I had this realization
that it was like.
Sometime in grad school, Ithink I had this realization
that it was like this is justhow my brain works.
I haven't done anything to begood at this, and the people who
(01:04:29):
aren't good at this haven'tdone anything wrong.
They're just their brains workdifferently and so like why do I
consider this to be somethingthat makes me superior?
Like it just like.
And.
And the English language iscompletely made up, and it's
also so weird.
We steal from whatever languagecomes our way.
Speaker 1 (01:04:51):
Totally, totally.
Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
So yeah, and that's something that I've had like my
eyes opened on in terms of, likeI'll see people acting morally
superior because they canthey're good spellers and
realizing, like just how bizarrethat is, that that is something
that we measure ourselves with.
So that's part of the reasonwhy I clocked that right away.
It was just like, oh yeah,that's.
That's not like hey, it's great, you can be a writer even if
(01:05:15):
you don't spell well.
No, that's a like see, she'snot better than you yeah,
totally, totally.
Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
So I guess the last thing that I'll say and then
please feel free to add whateveryou want is like looking back
at this movie as the originatorof superhero films.
But also there's so muchvisually derives from this.
You know, I I named twoanimated movies with lilo and
stitch uh from the trial, andthen elsa's ice castle with the,
(01:05:44):
the fortress of solitude.
There's also a moment in inmegamind when he's oh yeah, yeah
, I was thinking that, like he'stotally based on marlon
brando's jor-el the the whenmegamind pretends to be the like
, the mentor.
Uh, with the like, it even lookslike marlon brando's jor-el,
which I didn't clock when Iwatched megamind, which I love,
(01:06:09):
by the way, yeah, yeah, it'sinteresting watching it now
again, I'm like oh oh, oh, it'sthe guy from megamind the other
thing you mentioned.
Speaker 2 (01:06:17):
It starts with like a child's voice and um, and so
that sounds like the verybeginning of black panther, the
first black panther movie.
Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
Oh, yeah, yeah, um, because that's like that really
stuck with me that that momentand I hadn't realized, like I'm
sure it's not that unusual tostart with a child speaking, but
well, I think, in particularbecause it was sort of a telling
a story and in this case, inthis case, it was a harkening
back to the comic book originswhich are associated with kids.
(01:06:46):
So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,well, all right, um, so,
listeners, I found it on amazonstreaming.
It is streaming for free on maxif you are a max subscriber I'm
not, but it's definitely worthworth the two hours if you want
to go back and remind yourselfof this film and we didn't even
mention the weird poem that uhoh yeah, lois lane does the
(01:07:09):
voiceover.
Lois lane does this voiceoverwhile she's flying with him
about.
You know, could you be mine?
And it's weird.
It's real weird and alsoreminiscent of the carpet ride
in aladdin yeah, all of theseanimated movies drawing from
this movie.
Anyway, what did we miss y'all?
What's your hot take onSuperman, the movie?
(01:07:29):
I would really love to hear it.
Or what did we make you thinkof in our conversation?
Please let us know.
You can email us atguygirlsmedia at gmailcom, or
find us on our website,guygirlsmediacom, or find us on
socials also I'd love to know ifanyone else thought nuns lived
in powers, because was it justus?
(01:07:50):
it was probably just us.
I think it was probably just us, yeah, um, so what are we doing
next time?
I don.
Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
Next time I am going to be bringing you my deep
thoughts on Wayne's World.
Speaker 1 (01:08:04):
Party time Excellent, excellent.
Speaker 2 (01:08:08):
And I do have a listener comment oh great From
Becky on our Breakfast Clubepisode.
She says I liked Allison muchbetter with copious dandruff
than I did with the MaybellineBond Bell aesthetic.
I was like yeah because she washerself when she was, you know,
copiously dandruffed.
Yeah, Instead of you know,cookie cutter, pretty 80s girl.
Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
A brunette version of Molly.
Speaker 2 (01:08:36):
Ringwald yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:08:38):
So Thanks, em, see you next time.
See you next time.
See you next time.
Do you like stickers?
Sure, we all do.
If you head over toguygirlsmediacom, slash, sign up
and share your address with us,we'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy.
But don't wait, there's alimited quantity.
Thanks for listening.
(01:08:59):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
Incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
Today, I'll be sharing my deepthoughts about the 1978 film
Superman the movie with mysister, emily Guy-Burken, and
with you.
Let's dive in.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
(00:24):
just pop culture, what othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come over, think with us aswe delve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Okay, um, this was the originalsuperhero movie, christopher
(00:44):
Reeve, margot Kidder.
It was released before you wereborn.
But what do you know orremember about Superman the
movie?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
So, based on conversations you and I had
before we started recording, I'mrealizing that my memories of
Superman, the movie may be fromthe sequels.
Memories of superman, the moviemay be from the sequels,
because I remember things likehim reversing the uh, the
direction of the earth toreverse time oh yeah, that's in
superman one yes, that is in themovie okay, superman the movie
(01:16):
to save lois lane yeah so Iremember the fortress of
solitude.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I remember, like the three black clad aliens which I
think were in the sequel they'revery, very briefly in the
beginning, in the very beginningof superman, the movie, but yes
, they have no real role Iremember like being a kid and
knowing that marlon brando and Idon't I'm sure I didn't know
his name.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
I knew it was a big deal, that he was Jor-El, but I
didn't really get it, but I justknew that it was like dad was
tickled, yeah, and gosh, I mean,christopher Reeve set the
(02:00):
standard for Superman for me.
Yeah, so I think of and this isanother thing we mentioned
before we started recordingChristopher Reeve's life story
makes his portrayal and hisassociation with Superman so
much more poignant, and so Ialso find myself thinking about
(02:20):
that, and he seems like he wasquite a mensch.
And then there's the reallybizarre thing.
I cannot tell you whichsuperman movie it is, but
there's nuns on the eiffel tower.
Yeah, that's number two, that'sin superman 2, and so this is
long before today.
(02:40):
Tracy and I were talking abouthow because he like saves these
nuns the Eiffel Tower.
We both thought nuns lived intowers.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Totally.
I thought they lived on thosemicrowave towers.
Yes, how did the poor paper boyget their paper all the way up
there?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
And we were trying to figure out how exactly we came
to that conclusion, and I thinkit was like our mom said
something about how they liveaway from men, and then because
we saw them on a tower in thisfilm.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I was.
I was so surprised when yousaid that you had that like
association, because I totallydid.
I thought it was just me.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So it never occurred to me that you had it as well.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Likewise.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Same thing with the microwave tower Like I was just
cause I knew that one.
Like there's room up there forfor there to be like living
quarters.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Well, cause it looks.
It looks like they're littlehouses up there on those big.
Yeah, I man, I must, I re, Ican.
I can imagine like little likebaby Emily and baby Tracy in the
back of the car and like babyTracy being like, look, and
that's where the nuns live.
Obviously not Catholic children.
No, never actually met a nununtil I was an adult.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Well, like I didn't really understand why they
dressed the way, they did, whywould they need to be away from
men?
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Anyway, okay, we digress, we gotta digress Anyway
.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
So those are.
Those are.
Those are the things that Ithink of when it comes to
Superman, what I associate withthe character and the film.
The only other thing is that Ithink of Superman's real name,
kal-el and Jor-El.
They always remind me of thename of the Israeli airline, el
Al.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
El.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Al, and there are quite a few Israeli names that
end with the Al, and so, likeI've met people named El.
Yeah, which actually kind offits because the originator,
original writers and artistscreating Superman were Jewish.
So yeah.
Yeah, but that's something thatalways just sticks in my head.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yeah, yeah, there's actually a moment in Superman 2.
They're at Niagara Falls andSuperman like saves a kid who
has like fallen down.
He's like falling into thefalls and Superman saves him.
And like, in the background,you just hear people talking
about it like oh, he's such anice guy, I love him.
And then somebody goes oh, he'ssuch a nice guy, I love him.
And then somebody goes, ofcourse he's Jewish.
(05:08):
I had to back it up and replayit several times to make sure I
was actually hearing what Ithought I was hearing.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Anyway, yeah.
So those are my memories ofthis, which are very hazy.
But tell me, why are we talkingabout this today?
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yeah, so I started thinking about it again.
I think it was on our listmaybe, but I started thinking
about it again because of ourrecent episode with John Shore,
where we were talking aboutjournalists and reporters and so
I was thinking about Lois Laneand I was remembering this movie
and I remembered it reallyfondly.
It was something that like alot of the pieces of media that
(05:42):
we pick out for this project.
It's something that I associatewith watching with dad.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
we obviously watched a lot of movies with dad well,
he was a movie buff and he gaveus a very good film.
Education without, withoutmeaning to yeah, yeah yeah, also
that.
That is the one other thing.
There is that, I think, seniorphoto of dad from high school
where they like painted in alittle curl, oh yeah and uh, and
(06:07):
he looks like Clark Kent andit's because we never knew dad
with hair Right and dad likedthat.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Like the people thought he looked like Clark
Kent and he appreciated that andhe was like he was a journalist
and on the school paper and andall of that so like that.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
That's the other aspect that I I connect with.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
It is that that's journalism and like dad's
opinion of the daily planet as a, as a newspaper, and that sort
of thing, yeah, yeah, so I, Iit's been on my mind a little
bit because of that conversationwith, uh, with john shore, and
so I wanted to like go back andlook at it because I, like you,
kind of had hazy, fond but hazymemories and I realized actually
(06:47):
in rewatching it so that wecould talk about it, that, like
you, some of my memories werefrom sequels.
Superman two in particular, Ithink, was really in my memory.
But there were, there arethings from Superman one, so I,
I watched them both before westarted recording, and so I'd
like I'm going to focus onSuperman, the movie, but I may
bring in Superman to a littlebit.
(07:08):
I really want to think aboutkind of some of the, some of the
lessons that are embedded inSuperman that did or didn't make
it into the movie and kind ofin the zeitgeist, but but
specifically through the movie,through Christopher Reeve's
portrayal.
So I'm going to talk aboutstorytelling, about pacing,
(07:31):
about genre, fiction and oursuggestion that pop culture is
still culture and what thismovie did to kind of state that
stake, that claim.
I'm going to talk about romanceand some of the double entendre
that I totally missed when Iwas watching it in the 80s, and
maybe a little bit about genderas well, both femininity and
(07:54):
masculinity, uh, as we get itfrom from from superman.
So, but let me start with arecap of what happens.
So this film it seems clear tome that the movie makers really
did want to sort of state to theworld that comic books because
(08:16):
we didn't have the term graphicnovel, to kind of clean up the
comic book image back in 1978.
And these movie makers reallywanted to stake the claim that
comic books were solidstorytelling and worthy of full
attention.
And so they like, from the verybeginning, from the credits,
(08:36):
which have this kind of liketext treatment that's slightly
reminiscent of Star Wars, whichwas only a couple years old at
that point, and the score fromJohn Williams, which also feels
vaguely reminiscent of Star Wars, which was only a couple years
old at that point.
And the score from JohnWilliams, which also feels
vaguely reminiscent of Star Wars, frankly, marlon Brando's name
is the first one that comes inthe credits.
So you know, royalty when itcomes to moviemaking in 1978.
(08:59):
So, and he actually doesn'teven have that big a role, but
his name is first right, and thespecial effects, like.
Anyway, sorry, I was supposedto give a recap.
So from the very beginning, withMarlon Brando's name, and then
we cut to a comic book, a blackand white comic book that's
being flipped and a child'svoice reading it and talking
(09:19):
about what's going on in theDaily Planet, and it's 1938.
What's going on in the dailyplanet, and it's 1938.
And then we cut to Krypton, orKrypton, as Marlon Brando says
it, where there's a trialhappening, which rewatching this
movie has made me realize howmuch has derived from it,
because this trial reminds me alot of the trial at the
beginning of Lilo and Stitch.
(09:40):
So there's a trial happeningwith Marlon brando overseeing it
.
That's actually where we meetthe three villains who will show
up again in superman 2, butthey get sent off in this weird
little like album cover, uh likelike floating through space and
and and yelling um, and then wedon't see them again in this
movie.
Fast forward, apparently fastforward 10 years, although they
(10:01):
don't tell us that.
I kind of put that togetherthrough other things that are.
Apparently fast forward 10years, although they don't tell
us that.
I kind of put that togetherthrough other things that are
said Fast forward 10 years andMarlon Brando's Jarrell is
telling the rest of the councillike this planet is going to
explode and we need to evacuate.
And they're like, no, you'rebeing unreasonable, the planet
is just shifting its orbit,we're going to be fine.
(10:22):
The planet is just shifting itsorbit, we're going to be fine.
(10:51):
And they basically are like youneed to shut this down,
whatever you're saying now, orwe're going to lay on extreme
sanctions.
His baby son to survive theplanet's destruction with all of
the knowledge of the 28 knowngalaxies embedded in these
crystals.
So the baby.
Apparently it takes three yearsish to get from Krypton to Earth
and baby Kal-El crash lands inan Iowa field right in front of
(11:15):
the truck of the Kents.
And they realize, well, martha,clark Kent realizes that you
know, they've been praying for achild for so long and now here
he is and the dad is like that'scrazy, we can't keep him.
(11:36):
Did you see where he came from?
Who's like maybe four, five,somewhere in that range lifts
the truck after the dad ischanging a tire and the jack
breaks and the truck is going tofall and crush the man.
But the little baby Kal-Elsaves him.
So they decide that they needto keep him so fast forward.
(11:58):
Now it's 15 years later andClark is 18, 17, 18.
He's at a.
He's at a football game andhe's like the water boy and the
high school kids are like realmean to him.
He's got a crush on this girlbut the bully kind of manages to
drag her away and he runs homeand show.
(12:22):
And then we see the dad say youknow, don't show off.
We knew we needed to protectyou.
And so we get this sort ofsense that he needs to keep it a
secret, keep his powers asecret.
The dad says I know you're herefor a reason and it's not
football.
And so that's sort of wherewe're introduced to this like
(12:42):
sense that he's keeping, yeah,the alter ego, and the sense
that he needs to keep it secretfor his own safety.
Dad dies of a heart attack.
He feels terrible.
He's all these powers and hecouldn't save him.
And then in the middle of thenight, the crystal this crystal
that was in that was like one ofthe only things that survived
in the escape pod that the babywas found in calls to him from
(13:05):
the barn.
So he goes out and it's glowing, it's this green shard.
And he tells his mom I gotta go.
She's like I knew this day wascoming.
It's really bizarre.
He walks north like foreveruntil it's just snowy tundra,
(13:27):
tosses the green shard, reallyreally far.
It sinks down into the snow andthen Elsa's ice castle comes up
out of the snow.
I'm telling you, this isreminding me.
Um, I, I have a very vividmemory of the baby holding the
(13:48):
truck up yeah, with, like, thered cape like tied around his
waist, because the first scenehe's fully naked and we get a
full scene of this naked baby.
Oh, I while naked child.
I don't know that that wouldhappen if this movie were made
today, yeah, anyway.
So elsa's ice palace comes up,that, and then when he goes in,
(14:10):
he like figures out to like movesome crystals into these little
tubes, and then that activatessomething.
And then there's there's marlonbrando, again sort of
explaining who he is and tellinghim, telling him his name,
which he's never, he has neverknown.
And that's where we get thefact that this is the fortress
(14:32):
of solitude.
Marlon brando tells him in thisfortress of solitude, I will
teach you.
And then we are told that hetakes a 12 year educational
journey with dad to learn all ofthe knowledge of krypton, and
(14:53):
then he gets a job at the dailyplanet it feels like a letdown
it's it's yeah, the pacing isreally really interesting.
Like it's like it's it's yeah,the pacing is really really
interesting.
Like it's like a full hour intothe movie before we see him in
(15:17):
the costume.
Wow, the origin story and theIowa farm boy and Superman is
casting because we have adifferent actor playing young
Clark, oh, and then he shows upat the Daily Planet on his first
day as Christopher Reeve.
Wow, so it's actually adifferent actor playing young
(15:39):
Clark.
So it's his first day at theDaily Planet.
So it's his first day at thedaily planet.
He's like very shy and clumsyand awkward.
So it's still this six footfour, like gorgeous hunk of man,
but he's got the glasses on andhe's like constantly like
pushing them up in this awkwardsort of way and he's like gosh,
(15:59):
I don't know, I don't know, andit's 1978, but he still says
things like swell, which Loiscalls him on.
He's asks Perry White, thechief of the Daily Planet, if he
can please have his page halfof his paycheck sent to this
address.
And she says oh, he's probablyhaving it.
She says first Lois says that'syour bookie, right?
And Clark doesn't evenunderstand what she means.
(16:21):
And then she says, oh, no, nocourse You're having it sent to
your white haired old mom.
And Clark looks at her and saysactually she's sort of silver
haired.
It's just like so adorableAnyway.
So meanwhile the bad guy is LexLuthor, who is his diablo, gene
Hackman, isn't it?
Gene Hackman as Lex Luthor.
(16:42):
He's brilliant, brilliant, Imean like really brilliant.
And ned baity is his veryineffective and just not smart
minion they live in like sort ofa flooded out subway station
that he's got all decked outreally fancy and he has this
diabolical plan.
He's got all decked out reallyfancy and he has this diabolical
(17:06):
plan.
He's buying up all this land inthe desert, in the Sonoran
Desert, sonoran, in theCalifornia desert.
And he has this plan he's goingto have a nuclear warhead like
a missile sent into the SanAndreas Fault which will make
half of California, everythingwest of the San Andreas Fault,
which will make like half ofCalifornia, everything west of
the San Andreas Fault, fall intothe sea and make his property
(17:30):
now beachfront property and muchmore valuable.
This is his plan.
This is the diabolical planthat Superman's going to have to
thwart.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
I feel like I'm reminded of there's a Bugs Bunny
cartoon showing him like takinga saw to Florida and just
cutting it off.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
It's very cartoon logic, totally, totally so we
see Lex Luthor's diabolical plan.
Meanwhile Lois is, she is justall about the job.
She just wants the story always, always, always.
So she's taking a flight in ahelicopter that the newspaper is
(18:13):
providing what, uh?
To go meet the the president.
He's coming to metropolis,which is very clearly new york
city, like they don't evenpretend it's not new york city
but they call it metropolis.
And like a very basic pretendit's not New York City but they
call it Metropolis.
And like a very basic mistakeit's not.
Foul play happens and thehelicopter, like is, loses
control and is kind of like halfhanging off of the top of this
(18:35):
skyscraper.
It's the skyscraper of thedaily planet.
So Clark is leaving and Lois'shat falls in front of him and he
looks up and sees what'shappening and then he's like you
know, he's got a saver, so hegoes and there's.
Superman was so wellestablished already that the
movie makers were able to sharethese little jokes with us.
It great like he looks at thisphone booth, which is one of
(18:56):
those ones that's just like ahalf like, like it's not an
actual booth.
So reeve is able to like kindof like look at the camera
almost with a, with a smile orlike a.
You know he's not gonna changein there, so he changes in a
revolving door, saves loisis,saves the helicopter.
(19:16):
That's when he first sort ofreveals himself really to the
world.
Lois asks who he is.
He says a friend.
And that's how then later he'sable to sort of slip her a note
like meet me, I'll be at yourplace at seven.
Signed a friend.
So she's there for an interview.
Find a friend, so she's therefor an interview.
(19:38):
This is the scene that has likea lot more sexual innuendo than
I picked up on as a child.
So of course a reporter has,you know, a penthouse apartment
with this giant like balcony,you know, like with a garden of
course.
So she's there waiting for him.
Maybe she has family money, youdon't know, sure, sure.
(20:00):
He shows up.
She says let's just start withsome demographics, like how big
are you?
And then she says, I mean, Imean how tall.
And then they're you knowthey're talking.
She's asking him all thesequestions.
And then she says somethinglike is it true you can see
through anything?
And he says, yeah, actuallythat is true.
And she says what colorunderwear am I wearing?
So there's like she is layingit on real thick and she's
(20:23):
dressed much more feminine thanwe've seen her today.
She's not always all about thejob.
Well, when Superman is involved?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
she's not, and can you blame her?
I I mean other than the wearingthe underwear on the outside
yeah, christopher reeves in that, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
So we also learn one of his weaknesses he can't see
her underwear because she'sstanding in front of a planter
that's made of lead I what,anyway.
So he can't see through lead.
But then she walks a little bitaway and he goes pink, and then
she asks him if he likes pink.
He does anyway, uh.
(21:08):
So this scene sort ofestablishes the chemistry
between them, and I believed it.
It Honestly I really did.
Shenanigans ensue, and LexLuthor really is brilliant
Figures out that kryptonite willtake away his powers, steals a
(21:29):
meteor, a meteorite that is inAddis Ababa, so that he can use
it to basically take Superman'spowers, not for himself, but
just remove them from Supermanand make him vulnerable.
So, lex and his, he has twominions a woman who he always
calls by her last name isTessmacher, and then Otis, who
(21:52):
is Ned Beatty, and they managedto change the coordinates for
there's going to be a test ofnuclear missiles.
And they changed thecoordinates for their
destination with this veryhigh-pitched message that no one
(22:13):
aside from a dog could hearexcept for superman, and then
tricks him into opening a the alead container that contains the
kryptonite, tosses him in hispool, which is really just sort
of a flooded lobby of thissubway station, and the nuclear
weapons are already on their way, one to the san andreas fault
(22:34):
and the other to hackensack, newjersey.
Well, miss tessa mockers, testmockers mom lives in hackensack
and she says that to lex and helooks at her and he looks at his
watch and he just shakes hishead like no, she does, she
doesn't anymore, or somethinglike that.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
So why hackensack new jersey?
Speaker 1 (22:51):
because there needed to be a reason for miss test.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Mocker to betray lex okay there is no like there is
no other there's no, no reasongiven it yeah, just like luther
did not like, doesn't likehackensack.
Yeah, you know, after I went toelizabeth new jersey for the
first time and I was like 10when we were leaving, I was was
like if I never come back toElizabeth New Jersey in my life,
(23:17):
it'll be too soon.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Well, apparently Lex felt that way about Hackensack.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
I think the number of towns in New Jersey that people
feel that way about is higherper capita than most states.
But anyway, continue.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
So Ms Tasmacher decides to save him so that he
will save her mom.
And then there's this weirdmoment where she like pulls him
out of the pool and it's goingto take the.
The meteorite is on like a bigold chain around his neck and
she's going to take it off, butthen she hesitates and then
kisses him and then takes it offand he says why did you kiss me
(23:53):
first?
And she says well, I didn'tthink you let me after I took it
off.
And he says why did you kiss mefirst?
And she says well, I didn'tthink you let me after I took it
off.
And he reaches out and cups hercheek and then leaves.
She makes him promise I knowit's really weird, so we can dig
into that for a minute.
She makes him promise that hewill save her mom first and he's
like but, but Lois, but Jimmy.
And she's like you have topromise me and I know you'll
(24:16):
keep your word because you neverlie.
So he flies off in thedirection of Hackensack and,
like, redirects the missile intoouter space and then he turns
tail and heads over toCalifornia.
He saves some kids in a schoolbus on the Golden Gate Bridge
(24:40):
which is about to fall.
He saves Jimmy Olsen who's atthe Hoover Dam which is busting
because, like these hugeearthquakes, because the missile
hit the fault, huge earthquakeseverywhere.
Like you know, towns are likewhole towns are, are threatened
(25:00):
by rivers that are, you know,sort of busting through and the
and because of the dam.
So he's, he's all overCalifornia saving stuff.
Meanwhile Lois is driving and anew fault Like she, she's
running out of gas.
She pulls into a gas stationwhen the earthquakes start
because of the missile and thewhole gas station just explodes.
(25:21):
So she drives off, she's gotvery little gas.
Telephone poles are you knowelectric poles are falling on
the road around her.
She's driving around them.
It's very scary and she's likepulling through.
And then a new fault opens upand she has no gas and the car
just falls in and then likeavalanche, dirt falling into the
(25:42):
car and she suffocatesbasically.
So by the time he gets to hershe's already gone.
He pulls the car out, he pullsher out and he's devastated,
crying like, gently holding herdead body, and is like no, and
like flies up into space andthat's the thing you remember.
(26:04):
He flies around really, really,really, really fast around the
globe and like changes the orbit.
While he's doing this, by theway, while he's doing this, by
the way, he's hearing both hisEarth dad saying you were here
for something special, and hiskrypton, kryptonite dad, marlon
(26:24):
Brando, saying you are forbiddenfrom interfering in the goings
on on Earth.
So he's hearing both of thosethings and he decides to go with
his earth dad and he changesthe rotation of the earth to
turn back time by maybe 10minutes or so, and then turns
(26:45):
the rotation back, which evenkitchen table logic doesn't work
.
Like I'm willing to suspend mydisbelief for a comic book movie
, but even just like time is notrelated to the rotation of the
Earth.
I mean it is.
That's how we mark it, butthat's not how it actually flows
.
Like I think if you change therotation of the Earth, you would
(27:08):
kill everything on it.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
That's, I can remember like Dad saying like
yeah, everything would fly offthe earth if you change the
rotation, and like I don'tremember exactly how he came to
that conclusion, but I was justlike yeah, it was even as a kid.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yeah, it does not hold up to even a little bit of
scrutiny.
It's up there with why hack andsack?
Yeah, ok, it's ineffable.
So it works.
And he, he.
But then he has to.
We do see the sort of zip oflight that is superman, like
putting the rotation back in theright direction.
And then he goes back to findlois, that fault that she had
(27:52):
fallen into no longer exists.
He's like, are you okay?
And she's like, yeah, no,thanks to you.
And so that is, you know,resolved that in order to stop
(28:12):
california from falling off theface of the map.
He actually flies down into theearth's magma and like pushes
up a plate or something like youjust see like lots of like gold
, red orange around him, whilehe's like pushing something up.
So I, I even forgot about that.
That was, that was before hechanged the rotation of the
earth.
(28:32):
So he delivers lex and otis toa prison and says warden, please
keep these two here until theycan sit trial.
We see, because that's how theuh the justice system works.
yeah, yeah, well, yeah, yeah.
(28:56):
And we do see lois, toward theend, be like where was clark and
sort of say you know they'renever in the same place at the
same time.
Nah, that's the craziest ideayou've ever had loisis Lane.
We do see Clark get friendzoned again by Lois.
(29:16):
So that's Superman the movie.
So I feel like I'm forgettingthe very end of it, but I'm just
going to go with it.
So some of the things I want totalk about, I want to talk
about gender.
Lois is the only I want to talkabout gender Superman, like you
(29:37):
know well, there's in some waysthere is this test marker.
Yeah, that's true that is true,and Martha Kent is kind of
furniture, yeah, so it does notpass the Bechtel test, sure.
So so I want to talk aboutgender.
I do want to talk briefly aboutconsent, because of that scene
(29:57):
with him and Ms Tessmacher.
I want to talk about the pacingtoo in this sort of original
superhero movie and thestorytelling piece of it.
Yeah, and then we'll see whereour conversation goes.
So we'll start with gender.
You're right, lois is not theonly woman in this film and
there are other, like extras,even in the newsroom.
(30:18):
She's not even the only womanin the newsroom, she's just the
only one.
She's the only actual player,like everybody else is
non-player characters in thenewsroom.
They're just sort of backgroundextras.
There is martha kent, there isalso I don't even know if she
has a name, but his kryptonite,his krypton mom, is also briefly
(30:38):
in the film.
But interesting actually, I'mgoing to stay with the mom
because we're given her.
She's holding baby Kal-El inthose early scenes where Jel is
talking about how they're goingto save their son and that's the
only hope.
(30:58):
And then when he actuallybuilds the or he doesn't build
it but causes the fortress ofsolitude to grow and meets
marlon, brando's jararell mom isnowhere to be seen.
So he's sharing, you know, allof the secrets of the universe,
(31:21):
but it's very much father to son, not parents to son, father to
son, so that there's some.
There's interesting genderdynamics there which then I
mentioned before we startedrecording.
I'll just name it quickly here.
Like in terms of happy accidentin Superman two, apparently I
(31:44):
mean, I don't know onespeculates they couldn't afford
the $3 million that they paidMarlon Brando again, and so the
mom actually does show uprepeatedly in the Fortress of
Solitude and self-identifies asthe archivist of the Krypton
people.
So because we couldn't afforddad, I guess mom actually gets
(32:07):
to be like an important femalerole model Agency yeah.
So I mean I guess I'm glad wegot there so.
So there's something reallytraditionally gendered about
that transfer of knowledge whichis downright christian in some
(32:30):
of it.
Like jarell says somethingabout like sending his only son
when because the mom is like why, earth, they're so far behind
us, they're so primitive, and hesays something about how, you
know, then his gifts will be putto good use and I'm giving them
my only son, which I also didnot pick up on as a kid.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
That's.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
That's really interesting, particularly
considering the fact that theoriginal artists and creators
were Jewish Siegel, and JerrySiegel and Joe Schuster were the
originators of.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
The Superman punched Nazis originally.
It was very intentionallyJewish, like punched nazis
originally, like this that was.
It was very intentionallyjewish for those who recognized
it.
Yeah, yeah yeah, so that'sthat's interesting, that then
that the end, like you get anychosen one stories, it's going
(33:30):
to be, there's gonna havechristianity, yeah, um, I mean
you get that with the matrix,but I just I find that really
interesting, considering I someof this is because, like because
I do know that Superman is astory rooted in American Judaism
(33:51):
, or at least American Jewishexperience, american Judaism, or
at least American Jewishexperience.
American Jewish experience oflike the early 20th century in
the buildup to World War II, solike I think of it as hours, so
like that.
That's part of why I'm justlike but but but why would you
(34:12):
do that?
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's just one moment, but yeah,
yeah.
So that transfer of knowledge,very much father to son, though
fast forward to 1978 and thenewsroom of the Daily Planet and
(34:38):
we have Perry White as thechief he is the head there, male
, but Lois is the undeniable andexplicitly named best reporter.
She has some trouble spelling,apparently.
We're shown that she misspellsthings often Mm-hmm, possibly
(35:12):
subverting that knowledge fromso father to son.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
I find that okay.
The fact that she is likeundeniably self-identified and
identified by others as the bestwriter, the best reporter in
the newsroom, is kind of likethe give with one hand, like
yeah, here you go.
But then the fact that shestruggles with spelling, which
is often a coded morality,because people who are good at
(35:42):
spelling consider themselves tobe morally superior to people
who are not, and so it's likelike she's hot but clumsy, yeah,
like you can still feelsuperior to her.
Yeah, yeah, definitely, which Ilike.
I find that just reallyinteresting, because my first
thought was like oh, that'sgreat that they have her, that
she struggles with spelling,because like that's, you know,
(36:04):
it's just a brain quirk, andlike like in 1978 it was harder,
like you know, you don't havespell check on typewriters, but
you know, whatever, it's not abig deal.
It's just like the english isfreaking weird and we have weird
spellings of things, and likethat's why you have editors.
But that's not what it was.
Like I know that's not whatthey were doing.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Like they were not, like no, you're exactly right,
you're exactly right, you'reexactly right.
And because she's constantlysort of asking people how do you
spell um?
And, like part of the, thehumor of the first first, she's
writing an ode to spring and shesays to Jimmy how do you spell
massacre?
Speaker 2 (36:42):
And that's a weird word because it's from the
French there's like it shouldhave a K in it.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
She also asks him is there one T or two in
bloodletting in her ode tospring?
So, or two in bloodletting inher ode to spring?
Speaker 2 (36:59):
So why are they assigning the best reporter an
ode to spring.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Well, it actually ends up being a story about a
serial rapist, but Harry letsher know there's only one P in
rapist.
So yeah, no, you're exactlyright with what was happening,
with the fact that she's bad atspelling.
She's cute but clumsy.
That's exactly it.
That's exactly it.
Yeah, yeah.
So she is very much are notlike other girls, feminist hero
(37:33):
she is.
She has no peers as a femalewriter and you know she's a
pulitzer prize winner orstriving to be, and she's also.
She's also.
You know you said I thinkbefore we started recording you
were like is it margo kidder?
I get her mixed up with karenallen.
She is very much like marionfrom indiana jones and the and
(37:58):
the raiders of the lost ark.
She's got this abrasiveness andthis sort of like rough edge to
her.
She's which makes her worldly.
That's what.
There's a worldliness to herthat is kind of hard-nosed and
(38:20):
helps define her as this goodjournalist.
But she has no peers and thereis a certain degree of when I'm
thinking about gender and theperformance of gender, there is
a certain degree of masculinecoding to her, or at least less
feminine.
She's mostly wearing trousers,not exclusively in the newsroom.
(38:45):
She does wear like a skirt suit, but it's a suit, though when
she's meeting Superman it's thislike flowy sheer with a
underslip kind of a dress.
So we see sort of theperformance of gender based on
to like how she wants to beperceived, which reads as true,
(39:11):
you know.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Well, that that reminds me of something we were
talking about with the X-Filesin the first few seasons,
gillian Anderson as Scully wore.
Now some of it had to do withearly nineties fashions but she
wore like kind of boxy clothing.
But that actually fit with thecharacter in that, you know,
she's five foot two and anattractive woman who came into
(39:37):
law enforcement from a weirddirection and like what was in
medicine, which is also maledominated.
So, to be taken seriously, shewears very severe clothing.
Yeah, so like that that.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
That fits in a way like that is just it's helpful
thinking about.
Like you know, we also justrecently talked about the fifth
element and how, like everywoman you see is just cleavage
forward, yeah, and so like it's.
Actually, this is a morerealistic portrayal of women in
that we have to dress for thesituation often yeah, dress for
(40:17):
the situation often yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
So, while we're talking about that, though,
let's talk about costuming andClark slash Superman, right
Cause, like, one of the thingsthat you point out is he's
wearing his underwear on theoutside.
But I think, I mean, he was theguy that gave us superheroes in
(40:42):
tights, you know, but I'mreally like wrestling with this.
You know, like, in some ways,christopher Reeve as Clark Kent
in a three-piece suit is moremasculine than Christopher Reeve
in a unitard with underwear anda belt on the outside.
But that is not at all themessage that we are given.
Right, three-piece suit.
Clark Kent is like Milk toast,totally milk toast and treated
(41:08):
that way by Lois.
She barely looks at him.
That's how we believe that shedoesn't see the resemblance,
because she barely sees him.
He's furniture.
He's a nice guy, you know, buthe's not someone that she would
be interested in sexually.
And then there's this guy.
I mean, I suppose there is themasculinity of the form,
(41:32):
fittingness of the unitard, sothat we can actually see the
muscles in his thighs, we cansee the muscles in his chest.
I mean, especially laterversions of Superman and Batman,
where they actually, like, havethe molded body armor to, like
give more muscular definitionwhere it exists.
Christopher Reeve didn't havethe benefit of all that.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Well, christopher Reeve didn't have the benefit of
all that.
No, well, it's interestingbecause like that seems more
like sexually interesting in aqueer coded way rather than
heterosexual coded way.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Agreed, agreed, though you know there is no hint
of that.
Oh, no, no, in this movie he isthe object of sexual attention
and desire from women, not justLois and not just Miss
Tessmacher, I mean.
There's not even a hint thatqueer people exist in this movie
(42:28):
.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Yeah, yeah Well, they weren't invented until 1986.
Obviously.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Oscar Wilde notwithstanding.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Rocky Horror Picture Show notwithstanding.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
So there's something like really interesting about
what we as a culture understoodto be masculine when thinking
about Clark Kent versus well,the two costumes, yeah, and how
he is received and supermancries when lois dies, he does.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Does clark kent ever tear up?
Speaker 1 (43:08):
like clark doesn't have.
Yes, yes, that's a differentactor, though, remember that's a
different actor.
Yeah, clark kent doesn't havemuch of a personality, to be
honest.
Yeah, I mean he's.
I think not that superman doeseither.
Honestly, I think christopherreed does a better job than I
remember.
Like in my memory he's verystiff.
He's not.
(43:28):
Yeah, he's not.
He actually, I think, does apretty good job and I think
there was sort of a directorialchoice to cause he's.
He's a symbol, I mean he'sfighting for truth, justice in
the American way, for God's sake.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
So, like a symbol, doesn't have feelings.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Well, and also you know, just within the world of
the story.
Well, and also you know, justwithin the world of the story,
clark Kent having not much of apersonality, is protective
coloration?
Yes, like that ensures that noone is paying close attention to
him.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Yes, yes, you know it's interesting too.
At one moment in the firstmovie, as Clark, he's supposed
to have a date with her rightafter Superman's interview with
the how big are you?
Question.
So he shows up in his suit andhe's like I thought I was going
to take you out.
And she goes to change.
(44:28):
And so he's in her living room,he takes the glasses off and
his comportment changes and he'slike you know, lois, I was
thinking, and he's clearly goingto tell her who he is.
And then he thinks better of itand puts his glasses back on
and decides to maintain thefiction.
So, you know, there's this liketeasing, there's this teasing
(44:55):
of him having these feelings.
We know there is real chemistrybetween him and Lois and this
bizarre triangle, which isactually not a triangle, but
they, they treat it as one.
I mean, lois is like don't bejealous of him.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
You know you could never live up to him.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
She actually says that yeah, yeah, there's
something, I don't know.
There's something really reallyfascinating about that, that
triangle, that then when wethink about the lessons that
it's giving us, when I bringSuperman two into it which I'm
not going to bring it in for toolong but there's a moment in
Superman two where he actuallyvoluntarily gives up his powers
(45:34):
so that he can be with Lois.
She knows who he is and hewants to be with her.
He loves her, she loves himback, and so he voluntarily
gives up his powers.
And in the scene where they dothat the special effect that
they do, there's like a ghost ofan image of him in the Superman
suit that stays in the chamberthat took the powers away and
kind of like slumps against thewall and then Clark, in just
(45:54):
regular 1978 clothes, walks outof the chamber.
And I think in superman 2 inparticular, one of the things
that roger ebert saidbeautifully is in his
contemporaneous review is thatthe heart of the disguise was
not the glasses, it was thebehavior, was the personality,
(46:17):
and so part of the lesson isthat we all have a Superman
inside us, which is really nice.
That's just a really nicelesson.
It also reads so much morepoignant now knowing that
Christopher Reeve lost hispowers later in his life from
(46:40):
the accident that left himparaplegic.
So re-watching that scene insuperman 2 when he gives up his
powers and sort of superman isleft in the chamber, I don't
know it.
It really tugged at myheartstrings in a different way
because of Christopher Reeve'sstory.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
That's a bit of an aside, but I just thought I'd
mention it.
Well, that's one of the thingslike it's a consistent through
line in a lot of ourconversations is where we end up
conflating the actor and therole, and it's because often the
actor becomes the role in ourhearts and minds.
So like Christopher Reeve isSuperman to me, so like Henry
(47:23):
Cavill has played him and DeanCain has played him and Tom
Welling has played him and likethere's so many other actors
who've played him and well, butthey are not Superman.
To me, christopher Reeve is andwill always be Superman.
That is the image that I willalways see of who he looks like,
(47:48):
what he is.
That Anthony Hopkins isHannibal Lecter, even though
that character has been recastseveral times.
And so, considering the factthat Superman isn't so much a
character as a symbol, and thenthere is this very, very
symbolic loss of power for thatactor who seems like, from what
(48:14):
I understand, I remember readingstories about half after the
accident, um, he and RobinWilliams were like roommates at
Juilliard or something like that.
And so Robin Williams came tovisit him and made him laugh,
which is like also knowing theend of Robin Williams's life.
Like it just, it just tugs at myheartstrings thinking about how
(48:37):
, like this man who brought somuch joy and who ended his life
with with this horrible despair,and this man who stood for
truth, justice, the American way, and seemed to always, when
given a choice, do the best hecould and the right thing, that
they found comfort together inlaughter after a horrible
(49:00):
accident.
I mean, it's just, it's.
It's like I wouldn't believe itif it were fiction, but there
is something so poignant aboutit and it's the reason why we
tell these stories.
Yeah, about it, and it's thereason why we tell these stories
.
It's a lot closer to home herethan if it had been, you know, a
(49:21):
different actor who'd had thathorrendous accident, or you know
, you know if there had beenother, a different situation.
But we tell these stories so wecan make sense of those moments
and have have like that momentof connection and like this is
what it's like, this is what itfeels like there's something
comforting too, and and resonantin the idea that superman is
(49:44):
still superman, even with theoutest powers yes right that for
christopher reeve, right likethere's something I think, in
that and and for for us.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
That's actually not what the movie says in Superman
2.
He goes back and gets hispowers back, yeah, but you know,
in sort of the broader contextthere is something of that in
Christopher Reeve's life.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
He's still Superman, even without his powers.
Life, it makes it clear to methat you know, the ability to
walk and being able-bodied isnot what makes someone a man.
Yeah, amen, because what a man.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Amen, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
And to go from like he was cast because look at him,
yeah.
From like he was cast becauselook at him, yeah To.
I am impressed by who he waswhen you know something that all
of us would be afraid of hashappened to him.
Yeah, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
So you wanted to talk a little bit about consent so
you wanted to talk a little bitabout consent.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Oh yeah, just briefly .
I mean that it it doesn't comeup.
Really, you know, lois is kindof putting the moves on him.
Never really happens.
He's kind of put as clark, he'skind of putting the moves on
lois very clumsily.
It never really happens.
We do see them actuallyconsummate off screen their
relationship in Superman 2, butin Superman 1, never.
So it really only comes up inthis moment with Miss Tessmacher
(51:22):
and it's really interestingthat it happens in that
direction with a woman.
You know sort of kissing him,kissing a man without consent.
You know sort of kissing him,kissing a man without consent.
And it's interesting hisresponse.
He's not angry at first, he'sjust confused and then when she
(51:47):
says, because I didn't think youlet me like the way he just
tenderly sort of cups her cheekand chin, like it's clearly a
nonverbal kind of empathy andforgiveness which is I don't
know what to do with it.
(52:07):
I don't, I don't know ultimately, like I don't know that the
movie makers actually wanted usto take too much from it, but
overthinking is what we do.
Yeah, I don't know what I moviemakers actually wanted us to
take too much from it, butoverthinking is what we do.
I don't know what lesson I got,like little baby Tracy watching
this, right, I was two whenthis movie came out.
I'm sure I didn't see it when Iwas two, but so I saw it when I
was six.
(52:28):
You know something in thatrange, right?
So what did little baby Tracytake away from that moment?
It like it doesn't, it doesn'tfeel good, right, like there's.
Not that, the not that TessMocker found him attractive, not
that she even wanted to kisshim, that's all right but that
(52:50):
she used while he was completelyincapacitated, hesitated to
remove.
When, when people are going todie.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
Including her mother, so that she could kiss him.
And then there's this likemoment of understanding between
them.
That makes it okay and I thinkthere's almost a humor in it
because it is a woman as theperpetrator, aggressor, yeah, as
(53:24):
the aggressor in this lack ofconsensual touching there's.
There's because of thatflipping of the, of the typical,
well, it becomes humorous,which is standard.
That's like, yeah, well-wornroof, and there are.
There are also, like back to myconversations about masculinity
(53:45):
.
There are also things then to besaid about lex, who is her
boyfriend.
I mean, it's a, it's a weirdass relationship, but they they
do seem to be have some sort ofromantic connection.
So there's a, there's a a levelof cuckolding in her going
after superman, who is lex'srival.
(54:07):
He's the one who put him in thepool with the kryptonite.
So there are all these layersto that, one kind of throwaway
moment that was really justadded nothing to the story.
Yeah, I mean, she needed tobetray Lex.
That's why the thing was goingto Hackett's act, because we
needed a way for him, forSuperman, to get out of this
(54:28):
predicament and she was theticket out.
But that whole piece wasgratuitous and I'm not.
I'm not comfortable with whatwas undergirding it.
You know.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
Yeah, it's, it's a really bizarre.
I'm thinking about the actresswho plays Ms Tessmacher.
Is she like conventionallyattractive?
Yes, okay, very much so, causethat's, that's like part of what
I'm thinking like with him,like cupping her cheek, it feels
like, well, yeah, I get it LikeI affect everyone this way, you
(55:07):
know, if it's like likeLucifer's response, yeah, in the
TV show, so like it's not yourfault, honey, don't worry.
Yeah, this is what I'mwondering.
I'm wondering how that wouldhave played differently if she
weren't conventionallyattractive.
Speaker 1 (55:22):
Actually you're reminding me.
There's another scene that Iwant to put in conversation with
this.
There's a scene when they'reworking on trying to reset the
coordinates for the to go to theSan Andreas fault, they
distract the sailors andsoldiers who are driving this
thing in the desert by staging acar accident.
And then she is lying on theground in like next to this car
(55:46):
that's.
That's totally destroyed, as ifshe'd been thrown from it.
And so all these soldiers comeup and she's like lying there
and he's like check a pulse.
And the one soldier says to thecommanding officer like what do
we do, sir?
He said, well, call anambulance and until it gets here
, I recommend chest massages andmouth to mouth.
And the soldier's like allright.
(56:07):
And then the commandingofficer's like no, I'll do it, I
won't ask a soldier to dosomething that I won't do.
And so the commanding officerkneels down next to her prone
body, has the soldiers like ringaround the two of them and then
says about face, so they'refacing away and blocking our
view of what he's doing on theground to her.
(56:29):
And then we just see her laterlike she's, she's cool, like she
shows up in the the part of thewhole scheme, like lex is
driving the ambulance that comesand picks her up, and so we
don't actually see anythinghappen, but like the implication
that these soldiers are, likesuper duper, excited to perform
(56:51):
cpr and mouth to mouth on thisunconscious woman.
Yeah, that happens before thescene with the dubious consent
kiss, not dubious,non-non-consensual kiss.
So yes, she is absolutelyconventionally attractive, very
much so, and her body has beenused as distraction and bait
(57:20):
sort of earlier in the film,which I didn't.
I wasn't thinking about untilyou just asked about her looks.
Speaker 2 (57:27):
Yeah, Well, and then that also puts the conversation
of those two scenes like.
That makes it interesting thatSuperman's response is like
forgiveness and acceptance.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
I'm not sure.
I mean he doesn't know that, hedoesn't know that that happened
.
Speaker 2 (57:49):
Yeah, no.
No.
No, I'm not saying but theaudience does, but it does sort
of add to the conversation.
Speaker 1 (57:51):
Yeah we do for sure, Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (57:56):
I mean, and some of it is like it's a 45-year-old
movie and like we didn't havethese conversations about
consent back then, but it's alsolike you got to think about,
like they had to put that inthere Now.
I mean, some of it is they putextra stuff to make the ticking
(58:16):
clock even louder and, you know,maybe like that's another, like
establishing his heterosexualbona fides, since he is wearing
tights.
He is wearing tights, but it is.
It's.
It's bizarre.
Like what were were theythinking?
Like why did they think theyput this in there?
Speaker 1 (58:33):
Yeah, Like yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:34):
I mean like relief, like it's just very bizarre.
Speaker 1 (58:37):
I suspect it's the cuckolding piece of it.
Okay, like the additional waybizarre.
Speaker 2 (58:42):
I suspect it's the cuckolding piece of it.
Okay, like the additional wayto make it entirely clear that
superman, superman is the betterman?
Speaker 1 (58:46):
yes, that's what I think, yeah, yeah.
Well, we've been talking for along minute now, so I hope I can
remember everything we talkedabout, but you'll help me out
here.
Yeah, so there's a lot going onin this movie.
(59:08):
I think the the easiest thing,the least complicated thing to
talk about is the way in whichthis movie started the trend of
superhero films being sort ofmainstream, like it's not just
for the geeks anymore.
In fact, what is it like?
(59:28):
80% of the films made now aresuperhero movies.
I know it's not really 80%.
Please don't correct me.
It feels like 80%.
Yeah, you don't need to correctme, I know it's not actually
80%.
Speaker 2 (59:38):
It's 72.
Speaker 1 (59:40):
It's a lot, it's a lot, it's a lot and,
interestingly though, there isso much that is derivative of
this movie.
In many ways it is verydifferent than the comic book
movies that we get now,especially in terms of the
pacing and the storytelling.
I feel like we always start inthe middle of a battle now, like
(01:00:02):
the establishing scene isalways some big action scene,
now With humor.
That was not the case in thisfilm.
The pacing almost feels tooslow, to be honest, like we
don't see the blue uniform, theblue tights, until like a full,
I don't know know 45 minutes oran hour into the film, which is
(01:00:24):
really fascinating.
Looking backward, this moviestaked the claim that comic book
storytelling should be takenseriously, as serious as marlon
brando, as serious as a scorefrom john williams.
There's interesting things tolook back on about gender, both
with lois lane and and actuallywith miss tess mocker as sort of
(01:00:49):
a prize and a proof of arivalry lois showed us very
realistically, which also Ithink is a is a point in this
movie Like metropolis is NewYork city.
They fly around the statue ofLiberty, like it is New York
city and there's not sort of thegritty comic book graphic
(01:01:12):
depiction of street scenes.
They look like street scenesand we see I can't like the
Coca-Cola sign from oh no,that's in, that's in series,
that's in the second one, we butwe see sort of iconic images of
New York.
It does not feel like analternate universe, it feels
like our universe and LoisLane's costume reflects that as
well, and the ways in which shesort of masculinizes when she's
(01:01:37):
working and feminizes when she'strying to have a date with
Superman.
There's also interesting thingswith gender presentation around
Clark Kent versus Supermancostumes.
Right In ways that, looking atit with today's eyes, superman's
(01:01:57):
costume looks sort of queercoded, with the like access to
his bulging muscles well visual,the only thing that bulges but
that was not at all.
In fact, as you point out, likewe're given pretty clear
(01:02:18):
heterosexual bona fides herethat he is, you know he's a
woman's man.
Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
Yeah, it's all about the ladies.
Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
Yeah yeah, ll Cool Superman.
Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
What did you say?
Ll Cool Superman.
Ladies love Cool Superman.
Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
Yeah, there's a lot of sexual innuendo.
The little baby tracy totallymissed.
And then there's this weird Iput these two scenes in
conversation around consentwhere and miss test mocker,
where she is used as bait andjust has to lie there where
these, while these soldiers giveher cpr and mouth to mouth and
(01:03:00):
then then also holds Supermanincapacitated for longer than
necessary so that she may givehim a kiss because she knew he
wouldn't let her if she didn't,which is was a gratuitous scene
and with today's eyes, is gross.
Yeah, I am sure I forgotsomething.
Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
well, just a little bit about how it leans into the
idea of superman as as a jesusfigure with uh with, yeah, some
language yeah, language, um, andhow that feels very weird
knowing the, the the jewishorigins yeah, the american
jewish origins of of superman oh, I also forgot.
Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
We're given lois as a very competent, exceptional
writer, but then that's takenaway a little bit when we're
shown that she has trouble withbasic spelling, so that I think
your analysis of that is reallyspot on that.
That allows us to continue tofeel superior to her.
Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
Yeah, my realization, cause I've always been a good
speller and, like I, definitelybought into that moral
superiority.
Until sometime in grad school,I think I had this realization
that it was like.
Sometime in grad school, Ithink I had this realization
that it was like this is justhow my brain works.
I haven't done anything to begood at this, and the people who
(01:04:29):
aren't good at this haven'tdone anything wrong.
They're just their brains workdifferently and so like why do I
consider this to be somethingthat makes me superior?
Like it just like.
And.
And the English language iscompletely made up, and it's
also so weird.
We steal from whatever languagecomes our way.
Speaker 1 (01:04:51):
Totally, totally.
Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
So yeah, and that's something that I've had like my
eyes opened on in terms of, likeI'll see people acting morally
superior because they canthey're good spellers and
realizing, like just how bizarrethat is, that that is something
that we measure ourselves with.
So that's part of the reasonwhy I clocked that right away.
It was just like, oh yeah,that's.
That's not like hey, it's great, you can be a writer even if
(01:05:15):
you don't spell well.
No, that's a like see, she'snot better than you yeah,
totally, totally.
Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
So I guess the last thing that I'll say and then
please feel free to add whateveryou want is like looking back
at this movie as the originatorof superhero films.
But also there's so muchvisually derives from this.
You know, I I named twoanimated movies with lilo and
stitch uh from the trial, andthen elsa's ice castle with the,
(01:05:44):
the fortress of solitude.
There's also a moment in inmegamind when he's oh yeah, yeah
, I was thinking that, like he'stotally based on marlon
brando's jor-el the the whenmegamind pretends to be the like
, the mentor.
Uh, with the like, it even lookslike marlon brando's jor-el,
which I didn't clock when Iwatched megamind, which I love,
(01:06:09):
by the way, yeah, yeah, it'sinteresting watching it now
again, I'm like oh oh, oh, it'sthe guy from megamind the other
thing you mentioned.
Speaker 2 (01:06:17):
It starts with like a child's voice and um, and so
that sounds like the verybeginning of black panther, the
first black panther movie.
Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
Oh, yeah, yeah, um, because that's like that really
stuck with me that that momentand I hadn't realized, like I'm
sure it's not that unusual tostart with a child speaking, but
well, I think, in particularbecause it was sort of a telling
a story and in this case, inthis case, it was a harkening
back to the comic book originswhich are associated with kids.
(01:06:46):
So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,well, all right, um, so,
listeners, I found it on amazonstreaming.
It is streaming for free on maxif you are a max subscriber I'm
not, but it's definitely worthworth the two hours if you want
to go back and remind yourselfof this film and we didn't even
mention the weird poem that uhoh yeah, lois lane does the
(01:07:09):
voiceover.
Lois lane does this voiceoverwhile she's flying with him
about.
You know, could you be mine?
And it's weird.
It's real weird and alsoreminiscent of the carpet ride
in aladdin yeah, all of theseanimated movies drawing from
this movie.
Anyway, what did we miss y'all?
What's your hot take onSuperman, the movie?
(01:07:29):
I would really love to hear it.
Or what did we make you thinkof in our conversation?
Please let us know.
You can email us atguygirlsmedia at gmailcom, or
find us on our website,guygirlsmediacom, or find us on
socials also I'd love to know ifanyone else thought nuns lived
in powers, because was it justus?
(01:07:50):
it was probably just us.
I think it was probably just us, yeah, um, so what are we doing
next time?
I don.
Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
Next time I am going to be bringing you my deep
thoughts on Wayne's World.
Speaker 1 (01:08:04):
Party time Excellent, excellent.
Speaker 2 (01:08:08):
And I do have a listener comment oh great From
Becky on our Breakfast Clubepisode.
She says I liked Allison muchbetter with copious dandruff
than I did with the MaybellineBond Bell aesthetic.
I was like yeah because she washerself when she was, you know,
copiously dandruffed.
Yeah, Instead of you know,cookie cutter, pretty 80s girl.
Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
A brunette version of Molly.
Speaker 2 (01:08:36):
Ringwald yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:08:38):
So Thanks, em, see you next time.
See you next time.
See you next time.
Do you like stickers?
Sure, we all do.
If you head over toguygirlsmediacom, slash, sign up
and share your address with us,we'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy.
But don't wait, there's alimited quantity.
Thanks for listening.
(01:08:59):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
Incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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