May 21, 2024 • 72 mins
I really really really wanna zig-a-zig-AH!
On this week’s episode of Deep Thoughts, Tracie and Emily delve into the global phenomenon of the Spice Girls. Tracie explains how she saw the inevitability of Spicy world domination while living in London in 1997 and decided to embrace the manufactured pop group’s grrl power, despite feeling leery of the mixed messages these sexualized young women were sending. Though the group became a feminism gateway for a number of young girls (and inspired Adele!) and emphasized the importance of friendship and solidarity, the sisters do have to grapple with the reality of Scary and Baby Spice’s horrifying nicknames and the overwhelming body scrutiny the women were subjected to.
Here’s the story from A to Z–you gotta throw on your headphones and listen carefully!
Mentioned in this episode
Ms. Mojo: Top 20 Celebs Who Shot Down Homophobic Interview Questions
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/28/arts/music/spice-girls-girl-power.html
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/13/spice-girls-feminism-viva-forever
https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/spice-world-1998
Content warning: Mentions of eating disorders and body shaming
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
Today, I'll be sharing my deepthoughts about the 90s pop
sensation, the Spice Girls,including their movie Spice
World, with my sister, emilyGuy-Burken, and with you.
(00:21):
Let's dive in.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
just pop culture, what othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
All right, em the Spice Girls,tell me what you know or
(00:50):
remember about the Spice Girls.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
So I remember I loved the song Wannabe, even though I
never knew what zig-a-zig-ameant.
I remember the movie, bits ofit, it.
I remember bits of the movie,like I remember meatloaf having
a cameo and saying you know I'ddo anything for those girls, but
I won't do that it was aboutunclogging toilets.
(01:16):
That's what he wouldn't do forthem and for those listeners who
are not old enough to remember,meatloaf had a like huge hit.
It was I'd do anything for love, but I won't do that.
Yeah, I remember I really likedEmma, who was, I think, baby
Spice.
Yes, I liked her style the bestof the five, because they each
(01:39):
had their own style of dress andI was very much into like the
baby doll dresses and like Ididn't do like pigtails exactly,
but the kind of like clips andstuff that she would wear in her
hair, and so for me I was likebaby doll dresses and Doc Martin
boots, and so I don't rememberif she wore Well, we were all
(02:01):
wearing really big shoes in the90s.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah, yes, they weren't Doc Martens, but she was
wearing big shoes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
And I mean to be honest, if left alone, with like
all the clothes in the worldthat's what I'd wear I would see
like friends of our grandmotherwho were doing like like had
plucked all their eyebrows andlike drew, drew them back in and
(02:29):
being like I don't understandwhy are they still doing this
weird makeup thing from like 40years ago?
And I now understand because Istill love the way, like where
you outline your lip with a darklip liner.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
So I get it now.
You learn a makeup technique,you like it and you keep it for
life yeah so those are the thatI like.
I remember the style quite a bit.
I remember how big they were.
I remember there was like,because there's always some sort
of like pushback in everydirection.
There was like is this thedeath of feminism?
(03:04):
I remember like, are, are thesegirls showing the wrong thing
because they're sexual?
Are they like?
Everyone had an opinion?
And the one other thing is Iknow what the post spice girls
life is for two.
(03:24):
So there's Posh, mel B.
Posh is Victoria, victoria,that's right.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
She's married to.
She's married to.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Beckham, and they have unutterably gorgeous
children.
Because how could they not?
Yeah, four of them, oh, mygoodness, they're such gorgeous
people.
Yeah.
Um, and then I know, is it Mel C?
Sporty is Mel C, mel C.
Okay.
So Mel B was Scary Spice, yes,and I know that she had a
(03:58):
relationship with Eddie Murphy.
And then I've kind of losttrack of Jerry, who was Ginger
Spice, and Emma, who was BabySpice, and Sporty, who was Mel C
, yes.
But I look back on them fondlyand kind of wonder if they have
(04:20):
any lasting impact, consideringhow huge they were at the time.
But if I said something to mykids about it, they would have
no idea who I was talking about.
Yeah, so that's.
That's about what I rememberabout the Spice Girls.
So tell me, why are we talkingSpice Girls today?
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yeah, so Wannabe was released in summer of 96.
And then the album Spice wasreleased in um summer of 96 and
then the album spice wasreleased in november of 96.
I went to london on like asemester abroad thing, in
january 97.
So I was living in london as a.
(05:00):
I turned 21.
While I was there I came tovisit you, yeah, For your 21st
birthday.
So I was living in London foralmost six months, uh, the first
six months of 1997.
And like you could not avoidthe Spice Girls in the UK I mean
(05:21):
I don't think in the world, butespecially in the UK in 97,
like you just couldn't.
They were everywhere.
And my you know, leftist,feminist, 20, 21 year old self
had some major questions aboutthese women who were not that
(05:41):
much older than I was, women whowere not that much older than I
was.
I mean, I actually, yeah, theywere, they were about my age and
it was like if I was going tofight them I was going to lose
and my head was going to explode.
So I decided to just embracethem, and I embraced them whole
heartedly, I just was like allright, let's do this you know,
(06:04):
And I just really got into theSpice Girls mania at the time.
And so, as we're doing thisproject and sort of looking back
at things that shaped us, Idecided that you know, it's been
30 years, like it's time.
Let's, let's look back at atthe at the Spice Girls and see,
(06:29):
with a little bit of hindsight,you know, which of my impulses
was right the one that was likeoh no, or the one was like, hey,
this is so much fun.
And I think, well, spoileralert, both were right, but
(06:51):
let's, I want to get into it alittle bit.
So I want to talk about theways in which the phenomenon of
the Spice Girls, both theconcept and then actually the
execution, sort of gave with onehand and took with the other in
terms of true movement towardfemale empowerment, toward women
(07:12):
taking control of their owndestinies, toward representation
, all of those things.
That's really the heart of whatI want to talk about, and I'll
talk a little bit more about whyI think some of those the, the
give and take, and I and I dowant to talk a bit about spice
world, the movie, cause it wasso much fun.
So so, for those of you whodon't remember, the spice girls
(07:36):
were a manufactured pop groupwho hit the scene hard in 97, 96
, rather in 96.
They just they dropped and theywere an instant, overnight
success.
Well, that's what we saw.
There actually was quite a bitof work that went into becoming
(07:57):
that overnight success, thismanufactured pop group.
It was like the brainchild ofthis father-son duo who the boy
band was extremely popular inbritain in the mid 90s.
And this, this young guy he'slike 22 at the time and he's
like we should do this withwomen and he convinced his dad
(08:19):
that, who was um like aentertainment industry
accountant, I guess, um lookingfor a new project.
So he convinced his dad to dothis and they found a funder to
help them do this.
They held auditions.
They auditioned somewherearound 2000 women to try and
fill these five slots.
So they got these five girlsand originally actually Emma
(08:43):
Bunting who became Baby.
So they got these five girlsand originally actually Emma
Bunting who became baby.
(09:03):
She was not a part of theoriginal cast five.
There was another woman,michelle, who dropped out.
It was a little.
The idea was to create a girlgroup like the boy bands of the
early 90s, like NSYNC.
There were some British onesthat were the specific model.
So, that I think they didn'tmake the jump across the pond.
(09:23):
They didn't cross the pond butlike Backstreet Boys, nsc kind
of a vibe.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
But with all girls, mm, hmm, mm, hmm.
And the mistake that the fatherson duo made.
Their financial backer said Idon't want to give these girls
contracts because I want to keepthem on their toes because they
know that I can fire them atany time.
Well, they put all this moneyinto like dance training and
vocal training and choreographyand all this work, and then they
(09:49):
didn't have contracts and thegirls were like um, we're the
talent, see you later.
And like got themselves a newmanager.
Wow, good for them.
Yeah, that is fantastic, right,right.
And the way they so, the waythey did it.
The original managers wanted tolike, do it really slow and
like come to the record labelswith a fully formed album
(10:12):
already.
And Jerry Ginger Spice actuallylike, she was very driven and
she was like no, we should dolike a showcase, we should like
invite the record execs to comesee us perform because we're the
real deal.
So they did that and they hadrecord execs like fighting over
them.
And that's when they were likeoh, we don't need you anymore.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
So Jerry Halliwell was like the oldest by like she
was 22 when the others were like19.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Oh, okay, wow, I was thinking she was like 25 when
the others were like 19.
Okay, no, she was 22 when theothers were like 19.
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Wow, I was thinking she was like 25 when the others
were like 19.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Okay, no, she was 22 when the others were like 19.
And she actually she was verydriven.
So in fact she was not cast inlike she, she wasn't on the
shortlist.
They had the 2000,.
They narrowed it down to like adozen and she wasn't one of the
dozen but she was.
She was gonna be in this groupand so she showed up to the
dozen.
She was she was gonna be inthis group and so she showed up
(11:06):
to the dozen, like the thecontinuing auditions of the
smaller group, and she just hadso much energy and drive and
ambition that she did end up ummaking the cut.
So they got this new, this newmanager who was annie lennox's
manager.
He's the one who got them thepepsi spot and I think he also
(11:30):
got them the movie.
And then they weren't happywith him either.
So they they dropped him andjerry did, did it, did the work
for a while, although part ofthe reason they dropped him was
because he was so demanding hewasn't letting them rest at all,
jerry.
Jerry had some struggles withmental health and with eating
(11:50):
disorder.
More than one of the girls hadeating disorders.
It was the 90s yeahyeah, uh, and jerry had actually
like checked herself into a, animpatient place because she was
really struggling and and theyput her on zoloft and and she
was having trouble again and themanager I think it was his name
(12:10):
was simon fuller.
He like wouldn't give her timeoff and when she's like I'm, I'm
unwell, so that's when theyleft, so that's when they left
him.
She was doing the managing, itwas gruelinging, and their whole
arc, this meteoric arc.
They were top of the chartswith multiple songs.
It all fizzled within like twoyears, that quickly.
(12:36):
Okay, yeah, okay.
So Jerry left the band afteronly about two years.
The other four continued totour, and after only about two
years, the other four continuedto tour.
So, their shtick was that theywere archetypes.
Right, the five of them werefive archetypes and initially-.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Oh, okay.
Yeah, I think you're about totell us I was going to be like.
Was that something that waspart of the audition process and
all of that?
Speaker 1 (13:02):
No, that actually was the girls of the audition
process and all of that.
No, that actually was the girls.
So in fact, the girls and theirlater manager, the, the father
son duo, who started it, wantedthem all to dress alike, which
is cause that was kind of theboy band.
Oh yeah, yeah, that's what theyhad been thinking and it it
wasn't quite working for them.
So the new manager, clean.
(13:23):
I don't know if this iscorroborated, but I read it in a
story which from either the NewYork Times or the Guardian,
which I will link to in the shownotes, that actually Annie
Lennox told Fuller whatever theyare, have them lean into that
and do over the top whatever thesort of kernel of their
personality is, play it up, sothey become a persona and a
(13:44):
caricature of that.
So they were these fivearchetypes which then got named
by a journalist at top of thepops.
So their spice names came froma journalist.
It did not come from themoriginally, but they completely
embraced it and made it a partof who they were.
So there are five names.
There was mel c who wasactually cast first.
(14:04):
She was the one black spicegirl who was scary spice, which,
um, y'all we will come back tothat yeah, so so scary spice.
Emma Bunting, who was theyoungest, who was the one that
you identified with in terms offashion, was baby spice, so she
wore these baby doll dresses.
She was always sucking on alollipop she wore her hair in
(14:26):
pigtails.
Um y'all, we're gonna come backto that as well.
Then there was posh spice.
That was victoria she's nowbeckham so and she came from a
fairly wealthy family and sortof lived into that kind of upper
(14:48):
crust affluence stereotype.
There was Jerry Hallwell, whowas kind of sort of not exactly
the leader.
She was the one who was theoldest.
She actually, the journalist,wanted to name her sexy spice,
or so I understand.
I was looking for kind ofdocumentation of that.
I remember that from thenineties.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
So I don't.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I'm having a hard time finding where she said that
, but I remember that from thenineties that that sexy spice
was floated and she was like,come on, everybody's sexy.
And so she went with ginger,since she was wearing her hair
very red Then.
I think it is naturally reddish, but she was very artificially
red, so she was ginger spice.
(15:29):
And then there was Mel C whowas sporty spice, who would wear
sort of track pants and runningshoes and tank tops and had
very buff arms.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
And she always had her hair up in a very tight
ponytail, didn't she?
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Usually yes.
So these were the five womenand they embraced these
archetypes which, all except forSporty, were still very
sexualized in terms of what theywore.
Which is not to say that Mel Cisn't sexy, it's just that her
(16:08):
clothing was slightly lesssexualized.
I mean, it was still sexualizedbecause even like she would
wear the tank, so she would wearlike a mesh shirt with just a
sport bra underneath or just aso or just a bandu sometimes
Like so, it wasn't that shewasn't sexualized, it was just
slightly slightly less so.
There was slightly less skinshowing often because, like
jerry, would wear these like abathing suit yeah, it was like
(16:32):
bustiers, I remember, and likewith just a body suit you know,
and then tall boots and anywaythey had this huge arc of fame
with a number one album, likeright out the gate.
And then they had this moviethat they were such a buzz that
this movie spice world actuallylike it's a who's who of movie
(16:56):
and music folks who agreed to bein it.
So we had, as you remember,meatloaf was in it.
Meatloaf had more than just acameo, he was a finer character.
Oh okay, he's in multiplescenes.
Meatloaf was in it.
Elton John is in the first fewminutes.
That is just a cameo, but he'sin the very first few minutes.
(17:16):
At one point they make a jokeabout Elvis Costello, where they
talk about how fame can be sofickle, and then he's the
bartender and ask them what theywant.
So elvis costello is in it.
It's like a muppets movie.
It sounds like it is like amuppets movie with roger moore
as this bizarre sort of like notbad guy exactly, but not a good
(17:36):
guy either.
He's the chief, he's like therecord exec or something, who is
actually calling the shotsabout what the girls do, not to
them.
He has an intermediary who'sRichard E Grant, who also was a
great actor.
Who's their manager, clifford,but Roger Moore.
It's over the top.
It's so campy.
So in the very first scene he'spetting a cat like a Bond
(17:58):
villain.
But then, later in the movie hepets a long-eared rabbit and
then a piglet that he feeds witha bottle.
It's just so weird.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
And just for listeners who don't know, Roger
Moore had played James Bond inthe 70s Right.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
So also Richard O'Brien, who we talked about,
who is the brilliant mind behindRocky Horror Picture Show, is
in it as a bad guy.
The brilliant mind behind rockyhorror picture show is in it as
a bad guy.
He's a bad guy, paparazzopaparazzo photographer who works
for a bad guy, like tabloidowner, who kind of reads to me
like a rupert murdoch kind of afigure, who's like intentionally
(18:39):
trying to bring them down Iremember there's a point where I
think it's like Jerry, someoneasks them like oh, do you want
to do this?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
And Jerry's like, oh, is the Pope Catholic?
And then they have the headlineis like they question the
Catholicism of the Pope, orsomething like that.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, it's actually even.
Yes, that is the joke.
And the thing she's respondingto is like something like do you
like boys?
Or it's something vaguelysexual.
Oh, okay, that she is saying isthe pope catholic and then the
next scene is the spice girlsquestion the religiosity of the
(19:16):
pope and then they like cut to ainterview with someone who's
like a bishop, saying like I'dlike to know what evidence they
have for that, I'd really liketo know.
Stephen Fry is in it.
No kidding, there's this likedreamscape where they're
imagining being on trial formaking bad music, like it's out
(19:37):
of style, and Stephen Fry is thejudge.
He calls them the wrong names,like there are two girls named
Mel and he calls them Melvin.
And then, after he passesjudgment on them, he says now
call Fouty and the Blowfish.
So it's like full of thesestupid topical jokes.
(20:00):
George Wendt is trying to pitcha movie to them.
So it becomes this very circularwhere the movie that they're
pitching is the movie that we'rewatching.
So there's this scene whereVictoria is driving the bus to
try and get them to their AlbertHall live gig.
And it's a big Londondouble-decker bus that's painted
with the Union Jack and hasspice on the roof.
And the writer is saying youknow, they're rushing to get
(20:25):
there and they're approachinglondon bridge and, oh no, it's
raising to let a boat through.
And are they crazy enough totry and make the jump?
Jump, it's, it's insane.
And george went goes, it'sexpensive.
And then it cuts to a veryclearly a model of london bridge
and this little model Brit likebus with like, like, visible
(20:47):
wires, and it makes the jump.
And then you cut back to Georgewent going or not.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
George was Norm from.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Norman Right, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So there's really very littleplot to this movie.
It was based on sort of HardDay's Night, it's just.
It's really like an extendedmusic video that has the barest
of a plot in order to kind ofstring it all together.
It's just silly and it'sdelightful, it's so much fun.
(21:21):
There's like a flashback withthe guy who owns the pub or the
diner where they used to hangout, and it's the dad from
Fleabag, that actor is thefriend Brian, and really the
lesson of the movie is thatfriendship is more important
than money.
(21:41):
It's more important than a livegig.
They have a sixth friend who ispregnant and on her own.
The baby daddy has left her andshe goes into labor the night
before their big gig at RoyalAlbert Hall and they prioritize
their friend and they get toperform, they get their cake and
(22:02):
eat it too.
They get to perform, they gettheir cake and eat it too.
So so that's kind of the thebackground of this group and the
movie that they made and sortof how it hit in my life.
Like I'm about the same age asthese women and you know I was.
I was a, I was a junior.
I was a junior in college, atOberlin college, which for those
(22:22):
of you who don't know is like abastion of liberalism, and you
know I was.
Mom reminded me that at thattime in my life.
I don't remember what I wasreading about, but I was reading
about something about the waythat, like, western medicine
controls women's bodies and Iwent to mom and I was like,
don't you dare take hormonereplacement therapy for
(22:42):
menopause?
And mom was like it's not timeyet and also like, excuse me.
So I'm just trying to givelisteners, like the context of
who I was in that moment, whichI was, by the way, listeners, I
was wrong.
I was wrong.
I am going to seek out hormonereplacement therapy.
(23:04):
Just FYI, sorry, ann, I wassimilarly radicalized when I was
wrong.
I am going to seek out hormonereplacement therapy.
Just FYI, sorry, anne.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
I was similarly radicalized when I was reading
Ina May Garten when I waspregnant and so I was reading
midwives and stuff like that.
I was just like Westernmedicine policing women's bodies
, medicalizing natural processes, and then at the same time it
was just like, yeah, I'm nothaving baby at home, yeah,
(23:28):
anyway.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
So continue, so that that that was the context of
sort of where they got insertedinto my brain and sort of what
was happening.
And so, looking back at themnow in 2024, there's, there's
some things that stand out to me.
Let's come back to thenicknames that this journalist
(23:53):
gave them but which theyembraced and we all embraced,
and scary and baby, scary andbaby, and like maybe I'm just
old spice.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
But you had that locked and loaded, didn't you?
Speaker 1 (24:12):
We actually made that joke in the nineties.
We all tried to give each otherspice names and that was.
There was a professor that Itotally had a crush on but I
would hang out with occasionally.
I think he knew I had a crushon him and just I mean
occasionally.
I think he knew I had a crushon him and just I mean I think
he just enjoyed the attention.
Anyway I called him old spice,but okay.
So yeah, so maybe I'm just oldspice but like why did we think
(24:39):
that was okay to call the oneblack spice girl scary spice and
so here's the thing and I'mlike just thinking about this.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
So I hadn't thought about it in 25 years, but I
remember it being like okay thatshe was Scary Spice, because it
was about how she had her hairin, like she did her hair very
differently in like Bantu knotsand things like that.
So I was like, oh no, it wasabout her hair.
And then I'm like, how is thatnot about her being black, right
like that, like that?
(25:12):
I had that thought.
That was like what made it okayback in the 90s and I was just
like, oh, it was about her hairjust now.
And then I'm like, holy, no,that's grim, that's gross,
that's awful.
How is?
Speaker 1 (25:22):
that, and I mean the way she talked about it in in
preparation for today.
There was they did an ehollywood story about the vice
girls and she talked about inthis interview about how you
know she's kind of in your faceand she'll make these big like
tongue out, like big facialexpressions, and she always was
(25:43):
wearing animal print, like sheloves animal prints, and so
that's the way she was sort oftalking about it at the time,
that it was about personality.
But, like I don't know, I hopethat we wouldn't do that today.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Yes, Well, I'm just like, I'm thinking.
So, you and me, if we had beena Spice Girl not that we would
have, but if we'd been a SpiceGirl not that we would have, but
if we'd been a Spice Girlwearing animal prints and big
personalities we wouldn't havebeen Scary Spice.
We might have been Bagel Spice,Because that is what you
(26:25):
associate with a Jewish womanwho wears animal prints and has
strong opinions.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so likethat's opinions.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so like that's yeah, yeah, yeah,
and then maybe spice.
She was the youngest and shealso like this was part of the
Annie Lennox Simon Fuller adviceabout like taking like the
thing that is true and thenmaking it more so.
So if you like pink and fluffyand your mom's your best friend
and you're pink and fluffy andyour mom's your best friend,
(26:52):
you're pink and fluffy, 24 sevenand you're always have a
lollipop in your hand and youjust like play it up.
And so she did.
And also like how did we notsee that that was kind of like
Adophilia?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Like.
This was the same time when um,this was about when Britney
Spears debuted Right and the.
I remember being horrified atthe time at how like, because
she was under 18 when shedebuted and her first song,
which is escaping me but shewore that like Catholic school
(27:29):
girl uniform with pigtails.
But she wore that Catholicschool girl uniform with
pigtails and there were photospreads of her with her stuffed
animals and it was a big dealabout how she's saving her
virginity for marriage.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
And so I remember at the time of the Spice Girls is
that they give, we're giving andtaking at the same time, like
about baby, about scary, likethe, the racialized sexuality of
of mel c or, excuse me, mel b,that a scary spice.
And also especially compared to, even like christina aguilera,
(28:22):
who's about the same era, atleast in spice world, these
girls were remarkably asexual,right, they were very sexy, but
like there's one scene wherethey fly to Italy to film this.
You know to do this.
I don't know if it was supposedto be live or filmed or
(28:42):
whatever, but they're doingtheir song and then these like
nearly nude male dancers kind ofcome out to dance behind them.
Nude male dancers kind of comeout to dance behind them and
they're wearing like um captains, like sea captains, hats and
white, tight, small biker shortsand that's it these dudes are
wearing and the girls are likewhat the hell is this?
(29:04):
And they stopped singing andthey're like uh, no.
And their manager, cliffordRichard E Grant, goes to like
argue with the italian guy whosedancers these are, and like the
two dudes are like arguing,like almost coming to fisticuffs
.
Meanwhile we sort of cut and thegirls are kind of talking to
some of these male dancers andlike baby's like well, you see,
(29:24):
I've got this dolly and this,and she's like naming all the
stuffed animals that are in herbed and she's like so there's
just no room for you, mate.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
And like I remember that, I remember that joke now
that you say that.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
And then, like one of the others, was like I don't
know, like, look at his muscles.
It looks like there's likeferrets under there or something
.
He's like popping his pecs.
So, like these hyper masculine,nearly nude male models, male
dancers, who in a ChristinaAguilera video of the same time
(30:00):
there would have been somegrinding going on in the Spice
Girls movie, it was like ew, no,thank you, put some damn
clothes on Right, damn clotheson right.
And and the final, likecompromise actually, because we
do see them compromise.
They're dancing in these likethey kind of are like like
(30:21):
pinkish, purplish suits, likemen's suits, but they're not
because they're made out ofspandex but, then the dancers
turn around and they're assless.
So you know they're like.
Tongue is firmly in cheek atall times.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
And there's this like they're actually don't go down
the fully hypersexualized routethat one would expect, based on
the way that their costumerskidded them.
So something that strikes me isbecause what I recall from this
, I remember having a sense thatJerry was not necessarily like
the leader of the Spice Girls.
I didn't think of her like thatway, but I thought of her as a
businesswoman and I definitelythought of these women as having
(31:17):
much more agency within theircareers than I did with people
like Britney Spears andChristina Aguilera.
So what's interesting isthinking about that, because
they did definitely dress in asexualized way, but it really
(31:38):
felt like and maybe it wasbecause they leaned into the
these like archetypes that theyeach had, but it felt like it
was more their choice than itwas for for Spears choice than
it was for Spears.
I actually have a great deal ofrespect for Britney Spears,
which is something that 20 yearsago would be hard for me to
(32:00):
imagine, saying that justbecause of the conversation, the
national conversation we hadabout her and the way that she
was commoditized by everyone.
But with the Spice Girls, theimpression that I got was like,
yeah, I'm wearing a sexy versionof what I actually like to wear
(32:20):
, whereas with other pop starswho were sexualized, female pop
stars who were sexualized.
It felt like, okay, I'm goingto the, the, the people who are
making decisions, tell me towear.
Yeah, I don't have a choice.
Yeah, yeah, you know, and forthe, the ones, like you know,
the spice girls were like young,but they're all at least over
(32:43):
18 I'm not sure if emma was whenthey started, but okay, she
quick.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
If she wasn't, she quickly was like, yeah, and, and
as young as she was 17 yeah,this was.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
This was since there were auditions.
It feels like more more choiceinvolved than for um the.
I just britney spears and seemslike a Michael Jackson type
figure For sure.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Especially since her family was her managers.
I think it's really interesting.
So I think your assessment ofthem, of Jerry as the
businesswoman I think that'sactually accurate and even the
sort of not exactly leader,because my understanding is that
the original father-son duo whodid the auditions, who created
(33:35):
this band, were envisioning aclassical lead singer and backup
kind of a band and the womenthemselves were like handing out
the different solo lines sothat no one actually was a clear
leader Right Like.
(33:56):
I think Jerry often was sort ofthe loudest and I think she was
leading as the businesswoman, soin that sense she was leader,
but in terms of musically it wasnot.
You know, it was not sort ofthe lead singer with backup
singers.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
It was not the relationship musically, it
wasn't Gladys Knight and thePips, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
So that's an interesting thing.
You know that your perception.
I think there are things tocorroborate.
There are reasons that youthought that.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Well, the getting into it also just the fact that
the movie was all aboutfriendship and the importance of
friendship, and even thoughthis is a manufactured band, it
does it did feel like they werea cohesive group.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Well, so here's an interesting thing Like part of
the way that the original teammanufactured them was that once
they were cast, he sent the fiveof them to live together in a
three bedroom home.
Oh, wow, so, wow, so, yeah.
So the relationships didn'thappen organically, but that
(35:00):
doesn't mean they weren't real.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think they took a lot offlack at the time and and even
since, I think all bands, evenones that weren't like the
Beatles, got guff for not beingauthentically.
I mean, whatever, we don't needto talk about the Beatles.
But you know the Monkees like,can you remember the
(35:22):
conversations in our house abouthow they weren't a real group
because they had been cast aboutthe Monkees?
So I mean, that's the way thatthe music business talked about
that, like the serious criticsyou know.
And in fact they knew it andthey were like there's it fairly
(35:45):
early in the movie there's thisself self-deprecating line.
They finish a rehearsal and theguy who's like I don't know
their choreographer or whatever,he says like that was perfect,
that was perfect girls, withoutactually being any good.
And I feel like that line kindof epitomizes, the Spice Girls
(36:09):
and also it's not fair right.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
So what's interesting is it's this catch-22, this
no-win situation, because wehave this sense of real music
has to come about organically,organically.
But there are so many feweropportunities, especially for
(36:35):
marginalized creators, to createreal organic music just based
on so many different things.
So there's that aspect of it.
But then having something thatis created and specifically
(36:56):
tailored to like, okay, we wantto make hit songs, we want to
make pop songs, we want to dothis, which is a perfectly valid
way of making art.
And I'm thinking about when youwere talking about how Michael
Jackson, with Off the Wall, hadwon a Grammy and he's like
that's's not enough and so hespecifically went out to win all
the Grammys.
Yeah, and like, the idea thatthat is your end goal is
(37:22):
considered somehow illegitimate,and doubly so if it's women.
Yeah, because how dare they bein any way?
Speaker 1 (37:33):
ambitious.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Yeah, and then when they actually do create
something and like their messagelike this is the other aspect
that I was thinking about injust the difference between the
Spice Girls and other female popstars at the time is that they
knew that they appealed to girlsand with the like, the Italian
(37:58):
dancers and and all of that andthe tongue in cheek stuff, they
are in some ways giving with oneand taking, taking away with
the other, but they are tryingto create a message that it
really is about friendship andthe comfort of your stuffies.
(38:18):
You don't need to make room fora mate, it doesn't matter how
many abs he has, and so they'revery intentionally crafting this
message of it's about the fiveof us and our friend who we want
to help, who's having a baby byherself, and it's about the
solidarity among the five of uswho you know.
(38:38):
It's like we have to deal withall of these, these hoops that
we have to jump through, wherepeople are going to take
everything we say out of contextas opposed to.
You know, other manufacturedfemale pop stars is about like
it's the male gaze.
Like this is, you know, othermanufactured female pop stars is
about like it's the male gaze.
Like this is.
You know, we know that littlegirls are going to emulate this,
(38:58):
but who cares?
It's about the male gaze andactually all the better so that
we have more young girls who aredressed like this.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yeah, yeah, and I think it's interesting that then
part of the reason we as aculture and sort of serious
music critics felt justified incompletely panning this group
was because they did appeal toyoung girls crazy for them, and
(39:28):
that's actually something else Iwant to talk about now that we
are 25, 30 years later.
Some of the young girls thatthey influenced, like frigging
Adele, was one of them.
Like Adele says unironically, Iwas a huge Spice Girls fan, a
(39:48):
huge Spice Girls fan.
So now we have this talent thateven serious music critics
can't help but appreciate.
Who says they made me sing intomy hairbrush, they made me want
to do this right, and so Ithink that's also like an
interesting twist, and it's noteven a twist.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
It's an additional layer to the short sightedness
of the so-called serious musiccritics who completely dismissed
this air quotes, manufacturedthis air quotes, inauthentic
this perfect but not very goodgroup who was wildly popular.
Yeah, I've talked before abouthow the erasure of marginalized
artists influences and I thinkthis is part of it as well, in
that, let's say, 50 years fromnow, 100 years from now, let's
(40:55):
say 50 years from now, 100 yearsfrom now, adele is like a
serious artist.
I mean, she's won Grammys,she's amazing, she is amazing,
and I imagine that biographersin 50 or 100 years will just
skip over, like, oh, that'sembarrassing that she says that
about the Spice Girls becausethey weren't serious, and so,
and that happens over and overagain where if there is
(41:17):
something that people wereinfluenced by that was popular
but it was like generallyappealed to young women, then
we're just going to dismiss it,we're just not going to mention
it, and so like, and good onAdele for like, no, I love them.
They made me want to sing.
I'll include a link in the shownotes.
But I read a book called and itwas actually I read it because
(41:40):
Neil Gaiman said it blew hismind.
It was a book called how toSuppress Women's Writing by
Joanna Ross, which sheoriginally wrote in the early
80s.
Joanna Ross was a she mightstill be alive, come to think of
it a science fiction writer,and so she was talking about the
lack of women in sciencefiction writing.
Now, the early 80s version ofit was not intersectional and I
(42:02):
read an updated version whereshe was much better able to see
the intersection of variousmarginalizations.
Intersection of variousmarginalizations.
She's a white woman.
She was very focused on whitewomen, but it blew my mind
because it helped me understandwhy I so often feel like I can't
(42:22):
have influences if I want to bea serious writer.
I can't love Barbara Michaels,who I literally every week I
would go to the library and getthree more of her books because
she wrote like 70.
And like I worked through themall because I loved them, but
they were women's fiction, solike and you know, romance
(42:46):
adjacent, so I couldn't admit toanyone that I really liked them
.
Yeah, I just I think thatthat's really fascinating and
part of like there are.
There are so many axes on whichthe Spice Girls can be
dismissed, like they're women.
It was an audition process andnot organic.
Uh they, they sang pop musicand like pop music isn't real
(43:08):
music and they didn't writetheir music.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
They didn't write their own music, they didn't
play any instruments.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
Yeah, but like Wannabe is a banger, I mean, my
God, if that song comes on atthe gym, you speed up.
That's a damn good song.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
You know.
It's interesting too, because Ithink also the message of like
that song, then they lived ittoo.
Like, if you want to, if youwant my future, forget my past,
right as one of the lyrics.
Like so, like you don't knowwho I am Right and I'm going to
(43:47):
be who I am, and if you want tobe my lover, you got to get with
my friends.
Yep.
And so, in the height of theirpopularity, one of the tabloids
in Britain got a hold of somenudie photos that Jerry did when
she was younger and publishedthem.
So you know, Spice Girls getsspicy, you know you can imagine
(44:12):
the horrible headlines and theother girls just rallied around
her and were like yeah, I mean,she did it Okay.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
We all have tits.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Can we talk about our album now, you know?
And so it was sort of this sortof refusal to cancel, refusal
to apologize for who they wereand even the way that they said
it in their own words, like MelC Sporty Spice would say, the
Spice Girls are about just thefreedom to be who you are, just
(44:49):
be who you actually are, whichis not a message that any of us
get very often, but especiallycertain intersectional
identities don't get that.
So this is really interesting.
In addition to the hugepopularity among women and girls
, spice Girls are wildly popularin the lgbtq community,
(45:15):
especially among gay men.
Their different archetypes andcharacters have become drag
personas of of different um dragperformers.
Several of the spice girls havebeen guest judges on rupaul's
drag race and that has become athing that like they've become
truly beloved and and kind oficonic for for members of that
(45:38):
marginalized community, which Ithink is also like really,
really interesting.
And that knee-jerk like oh no,that you know 20 year old tracy
had when they first came out tothese like hyper-sexualized
archetypes I had, I, that 20year old Tracy didn't see that
even a little like maybe, maybeat 20 and 21,.
(46:03):
I looked at Mel C sporty and waslike, hmm, I wonder if she's
gay.
That was the extent of how Ithought about the Spice Girls
effect on, or meaning to, folkswho might be marginalized
because of their sexualorientation, because of their
(46:23):
sexuality, and I don't thinkthat that should be downplayed
Like I'm glad I see that now,I'm glad that that message was
so front and center in thiswildly popular pop group.
(46:44):
What one writer called agateway drug for feminism, a
gateway drug for coming out of acloset, maybe, you know, like a
gateway drug for, like, leaningin a little more to the thing
that you really like.
But that might make you alittle bit of a weirdo.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
You know, it's interesting that I'm thinking
about, like part of what I'mreacting to with the Spice Girls
and putting them in comparisonwith other female pop singers of
the time is it's not that theyhad total control or agency of
their look or any of that, butthere is this sense of
(47:29):
especially with Jerry's nudephotos being published as an
attempt to shame them is like Iam unapologetically a sexual
being, so why, why are youtrying to shame me for that?
And there I got a sense of thatin terms of the way that they
(47:50):
each presented themselves as anarchetype and you know,
obviously, yeah, they leanedinto it, but there is this sense
of like be who you are and beunapologetic about it.
And you know, there in thenineties we got a lot of like
women taking control of theirsexuality as as like feminism
(48:11):
and yes and no Cause, as with somany things in in in feminism.
Like we were talking aboutJamie Lee Curtis's character in
trading places, where she is asavvy businesswoman, she's not
shamed for being a prostitute,she has taken control of her
sexuality and her finances andher life, but she's still in
(48:33):
this machine of late-stagecapitalism, Right, and so it's
not exactly a triumph, Right?
And so there's a similar sort offeeling with the Spice Girls,
but thinking about what thismeans for people in marginalized
sexuality groups when it is amainstream group that is showing
(48:56):
something like that, and I,just before we got on, I will
put YouTube on in the backgroundwhile I'm doing something that
doesn't require my fullattention.
And so there was a Ms Mojo videothat I'll share in the show
notes.
That was talking about, I thinkit was like 20 celebrities who
were like shut down homophobicquestions or were true allies to
LGBT community, and one of themwas talking about Judy Garland
(49:20):
and how, in the I think the 70s,it might've been the early 80s
she was asked about her gay fansin a way where, like they're
like it was extremely offensiveand she shut that shit right
down.
And the voiceover for Miss Mojowas saying like she recognized
(49:40):
that this was a major part ofher fandom and that she gave,
specifically with Wizard of Ozand Somewhere Over the Rainbow,
this idea is there's a placewhere you can be yourself, and
whether or not that wassomething she was aware of at
the time of making Wizard of Oz,she knew by then that this was
(50:00):
part of her fandom and that shewould not tolerate anyone being
nasty to the people who lovedher stuff and found meaning in
it Right, and so I'm thinkingabout that as well.
You know, I doubt that goinginto this just as you didn't see
it as a 20-year-old that therewas this possibility for, like
(50:22):
the LGBT community to embracethem.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
They've said it surprised them, yeah, and that
they're grateful for it.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
Yes, but the the, the response to that, to like this
means something to me.
It made me feel like moremyself.
It made me feel like I could bewho I am and be loved.
And for the Spice Girls to belike that's wonderful.
Yes, I will be a judge on DrewBall's drag race.
(50:52):
I can't wait.
There's something just lovelyabout that and that's part of
where because you and I wereraised with this idea of there's
a right way to create art, youknow, like that's not real music
you know, like best of albumsaren't real music.
(51:12):
They're not real albums.
They're not real albums becausewe we grew up with that very
rigid thinking.
I think it's wonderful to lookback on something like Spice
Girls and recognize how muchgood can come out of something
that is not quote, unquote realart, because it doesn't matter.
(51:35):
It doesn't matter how it wasmade, it doesn't matter what the
impetus was, it doesn't matterif it was like yeah, you put a
poster up in your ninth gradeclassroom saying looking for a
drummer and you've been friendsever since.
Or if you answered a castingcall.
If you make something that'sbeautiful and is meaningful to
(51:57):
people, then you've put goodinto the world is meaningful to
people, then you have put goodinto the world.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that feels like a goodplace for us to pause and look
back and see if I can try andsynthesize a little bit of some
of what we talked about aboutthe Spice.
Girls.
So the Spice Girls, you knowhitting the scene the way they
did in the mid-90s, way they didin the in the mid nineties.
They in some ways kind ofepitomize feminism of the mid
(52:27):
nineties, which gave with onehand and took with the other.
So we had these five women whoin many ways had more control
over their careers than many oftheir contemporaries.
They are still uh the spice.
The first album is the bestselling album by a girl, all
female group ever.
Still that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
I would have expected Destiny's Child to be further,
oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
So in many ways they were, you know, had greater
agency than many of theircontemporary female artists, and
also they were forced into thishyper-sexualized version, each
of them of themselves and aschedule that was absolutely
(53:18):
grueling.
And a scrutiny that wasabsolutely grueling and a
scrutiny that was punishing suchthat more than one of them had
eating disorder.
They all had body issues.
I didn't even tell.
I read when I was reading aboutthem.
After Victoria Posh Spice hadher first baby, eight weeks
(53:40):
after the child was born, shewas on a talk show where he
weighed her to see if she wasback to her pre-baby weight.
Yeah, emily's eight weeks.
Yeah, I mean not that, that'sever okay, I don't care if it's
a freaking year.
It is not acceptable to weigh awoman on an actress on a on a,
(54:02):
or a musician on a on a morningshow or whatever a talk show.
It's not okay, unless it's oneof those biggest losers.
And even then we I don't thinkwe should be doing that Like it
doesn't matter, yeah, anyway, soyou know the kind of.
So these, so these women, sothese women.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
There's also the tabloid culture in Britain.
In the UK is like so ugly.
This is a British show that didthat.
Yeah, it's so ugly in ways thatAmerican like I'm not saying
ours is perfect at all, but it'sugly in ways that we just don't
do Agreed, agreed, differentways, yeah, so they were undered
(54:40):
Different ways.
Speaker 1 (54:41):
Yeah, so they were under constant scrutiny,
constantly being told theyweren't good enough, they
weren't good musicians, theyweren't good dancers, they
weren't pretty enough, theyweren't thin enough, they
weren't.
They weren't, they weren't,they weren't.
Meanwhile, one of the mostwildly popular pop groups of the
20th century, period so, bothin the abstract, in terms of
(55:08):
like what they represented, andin the way that they were
received by the world, theyepitomize sort of the push and
pull of feminism of the 90s andwhat it is to move through the
world with a body that ismarginalized by our culture.
There are some seriouslyproblematic things about their
(55:31):
archetypes and the names thatthey were given by this
journalist at Top of the Popsthe fact that the one black
Spice girl was named Scary Spice.
The fact that we had this, theyoungest, who was blonde and
blue eyed, who was named BabySpice, like these things are.
It's almost like they weresaying the quiet part out loud
(55:55):
and nobody reacted, and I reallywish that.
Or maybe they did and I wasunaware of it, but I really wish
there had been more in the 90spushback to say like, um, this
doesn't feel right to call theblack woman scary like hello,
and the way that Jerry pushedback on being sexy spice.
(56:19):
Which was in part, as I recall.
Again, I couldn't find anyarticle that talked about this
today, but I recall her beinglike as if we aren't all sexy.
So even her rejection was partof the rejection of the leader
and followers that all five ofthem had been sort of pushing
(56:42):
from the beginning.
So some of the ways that thesefive women pushed back against
kind of what was expected ofthem was that the the two men
who created the band wanted themall to dress alike.
He wanted them to be sort ofthe he, he says.
He wanted them to havediversity of like heights and
(57:04):
body styles so that their fanscould see themselves in the
girls.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
But then he- wanted them to dress alike.
Speaker 1 (57:12):
Yeah, I know, I know, like they were all tiny.
Speaker 2 (57:15):
They were all tiny yeah, I mean, I remember that it
was.
There was a thing made of thefact that Geri was like
relatively short, like 5'1".
I don't remember how tall, andI remember there being, and then
she's very busty, she's curvy.
Speaker 1 (57:29):
She's very curvy, but she was also very thin because
she had an eating disorder.
Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, but thatwas a diversity of body styles
at the time, right, whee, yeah,but that was a diversity of body
styles at the time, right, wee,yeah, so, and there was this
push and pull like, where thegirls were sort of over the top
(57:50):
versions of themselves but alsodressed for the male gaze, but
also they were things they werecomfortable in.
Just more so, and in fact theymake that point in the movie.
There's this one sort ofmontage.
It's a photo shoot and they tryon each other's clothes and
they're like being each otherand they're all kind of like
this is uncomfortable, how doyou wear this all the time?
(58:11):
Oh, I don't like this.
This is how do you wear thisall the time?
Of course, jerry's in Mel CSporty's outfit and and she's
like, actually, this is reallycomfortable, but the rest of
them yeah like.
Speaker 2 (58:25):
The implication is that mel b is comfortable in
what the you know, the bodysuits that she was wearing and
the jerry was comfortable in thewell and that bathing suit that
she was wearing, that actuallythat speaks to why this would be
so beloved by the transgenderand gay community in that, like
(58:48):
you know, it's just like there'snothing wrong with any of these
.
This is just what I'mcomfortable wearing, right and
like.
I like it and I look good in it, yeah, so that that montage.
Speaker 1 (58:57):
Actually I really loved it.
They didn't just try on eachother's clothes, they tried on
all different kind of personas.
So like there's this one scenewhere Sporty is dressed Sporty
and I'm not sure who the otherone was, I think Baby.
It was Baby, but they werewearing like grease and Sporty's
dressed as like a greaser, likea man in, like the rolled-up
jeans and like the big pompadour.
She a man in like the rolled upjeans and like the big
(59:19):
pompadour.
She looks great, by the way, butthey did a little gender
bending too, like somebody elsedressed as Elvis, like in this
montage, which is just a I meanthe whole thing is a throwaway
and so it wasn't like a.
Speaker 2 (59:32):
That's the thing.
Like, even a throwaway can bemeaningful.
Yeah, yeah, you know like andand they full and they're just
having fun, which is part of Ihave noticed over and over again
in this project we're doing isthat so often we're just
reacting to the fact thatthey're having fun.
Speaker 1 (59:51):
I think you are exactly right.
I think you're exactly right.
We didn't talk about thatbefore, but I think that's a
great.
The synthesis is a great placeto name that.
That I think part of theirappeal despite the fact that
they were so-called manufactured, that these five women all
replied to a casting call isthat the chemistry between them
feels real.
(01:00:11):
And the fun that they arehaving feels absolutely real.
I think that the Pepsi spot thatthey did that's part of what
Pepsi was looking for.
That's part of what makes Idon't drink soda.
I don't particularly care forsoda, but I was watching that
spot to prepare for this.
I was like damn, that lookslike fun.
I love Pepsi.
(01:00:31):
Those girls were having fun.
Yeah, yeah.
So I think you're exactly rightthat the just joy of friendship
and of dance and of music andof what they were doing is part
of what made them so wildlypopular.
Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
Yeah, dressing up, being themselves or being
versions of themselves.
Well, and it's interesting too,because we come from like
relatively rigid background interms of thoughts about art, but
there's also thoughts aboutlike friendship, like you know,
like that you should makefriends in one way or another
(01:01:12):
way.
Yeah, that it's likeillegitimate somehow to make
friends by going to a friendmeetup or whatever.
So now this is partially like Ithink that people have relaxed
a little bit about this, butit's still like it's so hard to
make friends as an adult.
But this was in 97.
This was back when internetdating was like really, really
(01:01:37):
looked down on.
Speaker 1 (01:01:38):
Yeah, it was totally stigmatized.
People told lies about how theymet.
Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
Yes, and so like that sort of thing, like everything
has to be organic or else it'snot real, and yet like there's
this genuine camaraderie andchemistry and friendship among
these five women who answered acasting call.
Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So the through line for meabout the Spice Girls looking
back is sort of the push andpull, the give and take in the
ways that I think that was oftenpositive, sort of str in the,
in the, in their parent, in theway that they showed up with
(01:02:23):
other other characters and evenin that moment, with the nearly
nude male dancers where itwasn't just baby, like all five
of them were like oh, this isnot okay, you know so.
So there's this, repeatedthrough line of both and both,
(01:02:47):
and for the Spice Girls, andit's really interesting to look
back on, you know, and it showsup in multiple places.
Right, they were both wildlypopular and panned by the
critics.
They were both trivial and notimportant.
And also Nelson Mandela waslike these women are my heroines
(01:03:09):
.
What Right.
They were both doing itperfectly and not very good and
also sold a bazillion copiesyeah you know, they were both
appealing to the male gaze andshowing up fully as themselves
(01:03:33):
ormaybe not fully, but showing up
as themselves, right like inways that they directed.
So there's this reallyinteresting kind of both and
with the spice girls phenomenon,and with these five women in
particular, that it makes senseto me now, looking back on it,
(01:03:54):
25, 30 years later, that theycaptured our imagination the way
that they did, because we wethought we knew exactly who and
what they were, but theysurprised us like the, the, the
knee-jerk, 20 year old tracy'sresponse was ugh, these are
(01:04:19):
two-dimensional characters justcreated to please men.
And I was wrong and I was right, and I think that tension is
part of what is so fascinatingabout them and I'm so glad too
that that tension opened up andI'm so glad too that that
(01:04:58):
tension opened up the tensionand the popularity opened up
space to ask these questions, tohave this gateway drug to be
like, yeah, friends are moreimportant than dudes and I can
be who I, who I, who I am, andif people don't like it, so I
like yeah.
(01:05:20):
So anyway, I feel like I it's.
It's funny to me that this isthe one that I'm a little like,
more scattered than I usually am, so I'm having a hard time
pulling together synthesis, butthat's where I'm landing and
it's really.
You know, when you asked meabout like why this one?
I didn't even mention I I don'tknow if I could find it again,
but somewhere there exists aphotograph of 21-year-old Tracy
(01:05:44):
wearing a tight red dress withthat like spray hair color red
and like blonde in the front andI'm pushing like two big palm
fronds away so that I'm likepeeking through these like
potted plants, as ginger spice,circa 1998.
And that photograph that's inmy brain, that's part of the
(01:06:08):
furniture of my brain, is that,like in an alternate universe, I
could be ginger spice.
You know, like there's and likeI don't want to be ginger
regularly, like we've talkedabout all the reasons that I
don't want to be gingerregularly, like we've talked
about all the reasons that Idon't want to live her life, but
even the possibility is likefun it's just fun yeah
Speaker 2 (01:06:31):
yeah so well, getting to, getting to try something on
for a while, yeah, yeah um youknow there's.
There's one thing we talked alittle bit before we started
(01:06:54):
recording that.
I just want to yeah, yeah,girls and women, like is
trivialized.
Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
Yeah, I think, I think we implied it, but I don't
know if we we spelled it outquite so clearly that, indeed,
yeah, that part of I think whatmade Roger Ebert I mean not that
Roger Ebert like held back whenhe didn't like something, but I
think part of what made it verysocially acceptable for Roger
Ebert to completely pan thismovie was that its biggest fan
(01:07:24):
base was girls, girls under 13,teenagers and young 20
somethings, like I was at thetime.
Yeah, and it's okay to piss onstuff that they like.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
Well, and if it's not made with a dude in mind, right
.
Then like, clearly, this is aniche, this is a niche thing,
and like I didn't like itbecause you know I wasn't
centered, yeah, right, right.
Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
Right, okay, well, this has been fun.
Thank you for coming with me onthis trek to the 90s.
I'm I'm gonna be playingwannabe after.
Yeah, and you know, listeners,if I made you want to watch, uh,
spice world.
I'm really sorry it is notstreaming.
I actually had to dig out myold vhs tape in order to rewatch
(01:08:21):
it.
It's.
I don't know if there's somesort of dispute about the music
or something, but it's notstreaming anywhere.
You cannot find this moviestreaming.
So I'm sorry for thatdisappointing news.
So, but okay, so it's your turnnext.
What deep thoughts are youbringing me next week?
Speaker 2 (01:08:42):
So next time I'm going to be sharing my deep
thoughts about the Addams Family.
So I'm specifically going to betalking about the two 1990s
films that had Raul Julia, soAddams Family and Addams Family
Values.
But I'm also going to get intothe original Charles Addams
comics because I really lovedthose.
I have not seen, wednesday, thenew show.
(01:09:04):
You should watch it.
It is so much fun.
I know I'll love it.
I know I will.
Speaker 1 (01:09:14):
This is me being commitment phobic.
No, you will love it.
You need to like clear sometime and just watch it.
You know Christina Ricci showsup in Wednesday.
She's like yeah, she's a sidecharacter.
Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
Yeah, yeah, no spoilers.
And Fred Armisen plays Fester,doesn't he?
I'm pretty sure.
So yeah, I have not seen that,and part of it is because I love
Raul, julia and AngelicaHouston so much as Gomez and
Morticia.
Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
These two, they do a good job and it's.
You know what's the guy's namewho plays?
I can't he's, but he's actuallyLatino and so and there was
like backlash for casting him,like what, but he was supposed
to Well, and he looks more likethe Charles Adams's drawings.
Yeah, Anyway, yeah, I it's,it's.
(01:09:58):
It's a mystery.
You're going to love it.
You're going to love it so much.
Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
You're going to love it so much.
So I have so much affection forthis story, the characters
created, and it kind of embodiesmy whimsical with an edge, is
my personal preference foreverything, my style, everything
.
So I'm really looking forwardto that.
I'm looking forward torevisiting the movies and
(01:10:27):
chatting with you about it.
Speaker 1 (01:10:29):
Cool.
Well, I look forward to hearingyour deep thoughts next week.
And, listeners, if our deepthoughts have engendered your
deep thoughts, we want to hearthem seriously.
So you can share them with usby emailing us at guygirlsmedia
at gmailcom.
You can go to our website,guygirlsmediacom and go to the
(01:10:49):
listener forum and let us knowthere, or you can find us on
socials.
We are each there under our ownnames.
Remember, tracy has an I E or weactually do have a couple of uh
accounts as guy girls media onInsta and although is TikTok
going to stick around, I don'tknow, who knows, it might be
(01:11:11):
gone by the time this episodegoes live.
Well, if TikTok still exists,there is a guy girls media
TikTok.
We don't post very often, butwe are there and, uh, we will
get your message and we do havean Insta.
So share your deep thoughtswith us and until next time.
Until next time, do you likestickers?
(01:11:31):
Sure, we all do.
If you head over to guy girlsmediacom, slash, sign up and
share your address with us,we'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy, butdon't wait, there's a limited
quantity.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
(01:11:54):
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
Today, I'll be sharing my deepthoughts about the 90s pop
sensation, the Spice Girls,including their movie Spice
World, with my sister, emilyGuy-Burken, and with you.
(00:21):
Let's dive in.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
just pop culture, what othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
All right, em the Spice Girls,tell me what you know or
(00:50):
remember about the Spice Girls.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
So I remember I loved the song Wannabe, even though I
never knew what zig-a-zig-ameant.
I remember the movie, bits ofit, it.
I remember bits of the movie,like I remember meatloaf having
a cameo and saying you know I'ddo anything for those girls, but
I won't do that it was aboutunclogging toilets.
(01:16):
That's what he wouldn't do forthem and for those listeners who
are not old enough to remember,meatloaf had a like huge hit.
It was I'd do anything for love, but I won't do that.
Yeah, I remember I really likedEmma, who was, I think, baby
Spice.
Yes, I liked her style the bestof the five, because they each
(01:39):
had their own style of dress andI was very much into like the
baby doll dresses and like Ididn't do like pigtails exactly,
but the kind of like clips andstuff that she would wear in her
hair, and so for me I was likebaby doll dresses and Doc Martin
boots, and so I don't rememberif she wore Well, we were all
(02:01):
wearing really big shoes in the90s.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah, yes, they weren't Doc Martens, but she was
wearing big shoes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
And I mean to be honest, if left alone, with like
all the clothes in the worldthat's what I'd wear I would see
like friends of our grandmotherwho were doing like like had
plucked all their eyebrows andlike drew, drew them back in and
(02:29):
being like I don't understandwhy are they still doing this
weird makeup thing from like 40years ago?
And I now understand because Istill love the way, like where
you outline your lip with a darklip liner.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
So I get it now.
You learn a makeup technique,you like it and you keep it for
life yeah so those are the thatI like.
I remember the style quite a bit.
I remember how big they were.
I remember there was like,because there's always some sort
of like pushback in everydirection.
There was like is this thedeath of feminism?
(03:04):
I remember like, are, are thesegirls showing the wrong thing
because they're sexual?
Are they like?
Everyone had an opinion?
And the one other thing is Iknow what the post spice girls
life is for two.
(03:24):
So there's Posh, mel B.
Posh is Victoria, victoria,that's right.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
She's married to.
She's married to.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Beckham, and they have unutterably gorgeous
children.
Because how could they not?
Yeah, four of them, oh, mygoodness, they're such gorgeous
people.
Yeah.
Um, and then I know, is it Mel C?
Sporty is Mel C, mel C.
Okay.
So Mel B was Scary Spice, yes,and I know that she had a
(03:58):
relationship with Eddie Murphy.
And then I've kind of losttrack of Jerry, who was Ginger
Spice, and Emma, who was BabySpice, and Sporty, who was Mel C
, yes.
But I look back on them fondlyand kind of wonder if they have
(04:20):
any lasting impact, consideringhow huge they were at the time.
But if I said something to mykids about it, they would have
no idea who I was talking about.
Yeah, so that's.
That's about what I rememberabout the Spice Girls.
So tell me, why are we talkingSpice Girls today?
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yeah, so Wannabe was released in summer of 96.
And then the album Spice wasreleased in um summer of 96 and
then the album spice wasreleased in november of 96.
I went to london on like asemester abroad thing, in
january 97.
So I was living in london as a.
(05:00):
I turned 21.
While I was there I came tovisit you, yeah, For your 21st
birthday.
So I was living in London foralmost six months, uh, the first
six months of 1997.
And like you could not avoidthe Spice Girls in the UK I mean
(05:21):
I don't think in the world, butespecially in the UK in 97,
like you just couldn't.
They were everywhere.
And my you know, leftist,feminist, 20, 21 year old self
had some major questions aboutthese women who were not that
(05:41):
much older than I was, women whowere not that much older than I
was.
I mean, I actually, yeah, theywere, they were about my age and
it was like if I was going tofight them I was going to lose
and my head was going to explode.
So I decided to just embracethem, and I embraced them whole
heartedly, I just was like allright, let's do this you know,
(06:04):
And I just really got into theSpice Girls mania at the time.
And so, as we're doing thisproject and sort of looking back
at things that shaped us, Idecided that you know, it's been
30 years, like it's time.
Let's, let's look back at atthe at the Spice Girls and see,
(06:29):
with a little bit of hindsight,you know, which of my impulses
was right the one that was likeoh no, or the one was like, hey,
this is so much fun.
And I think, well, spoileralert, both were right, but
(06:51):
let's, I want to get into it alittle bit.
So I want to talk about theways in which the phenomenon of
the Spice Girls, both theconcept and then actually the
execution, sort of gave with onehand and took with the other in
terms of true movement towardfemale empowerment, toward women
(07:12):
taking control of their owndestinies, toward representation
, all of those things.
That's really the heart of whatI want to talk about, and I'll
talk a little bit more about whyI think some of those the, the
give and take, and I and I dowant to talk a bit about spice
world, the movie, cause it wasso much fun.
So so, for those of you whodon't remember, the spice girls
(07:36):
were a manufactured pop groupwho hit the scene hard in 97, 96
, rather in 96.
They just they dropped and theywere an instant, overnight
success.
Well, that's what we saw.
There actually was quite a bitof work that went into becoming
(07:57):
that overnight success, thismanufactured pop group.
It was like the brainchild ofthis father-son duo who the boy
band was extremely popular inbritain in the mid 90s.
And this, this young guy he'slike 22 at the time and he's
like we should do this withwomen and he convinced his dad
(08:19):
that, who was um like aentertainment industry
accountant, I guess, um lookingfor a new project.
So he convinced his dad to dothis and they found a funder to
help them do this.
They held auditions.
They auditioned somewherearound 2000 women to try and
fill these five slots.
So they got these five girlsand originally actually Emma
(08:43):
Bunting who became Baby.
So they got these five girlsand originally actually Emma
Bunting who became baby.
(09:03):
She was not a part of theoriginal cast five.
There was another woman,michelle, who dropped out.
It was a little.
The idea was to create a girlgroup like the boy bands of the
early 90s, like NSYNC.
There were some British onesthat were the specific model.
So, that I think they didn'tmake the jump across the pond.
(09:23):
They didn't cross the pond butlike Backstreet Boys, nsc kind
of a vibe.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
But with all girls, mm, hmm, mm, hmm.
And the mistake that the fatherson duo made.
Their financial backer said Idon't want to give these girls
contracts because I want to keepthem on their toes because they
know that I can fire them atany time.
Well, they put all this moneyinto like dance training and
vocal training and choreographyand all this work, and then they
(09:49):
didn't have contracts and thegirls were like um, we're the
talent, see you later.
And like got themselves a newmanager.
Wow, good for them.
Yeah, that is fantastic, right,right.
And the way they so, the waythey did it.
The original managers wanted tolike, do it really slow and
like come to the record labelswith a fully formed album
(10:12):
already.
And Jerry Ginger Spice actuallylike, she was very driven and
she was like no, we should dolike a showcase, we should like
invite the record execs to comesee us perform because we're the
real deal.
So they did that and they hadrecord execs like fighting over
them.
And that's when they were likeoh, we don't need you anymore.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
So Jerry Halliwell was like the oldest by like she
was 22 when the others were like19.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Oh, okay, wow, I was thinking she was like 25 when
the others were like 19.
Okay, no, she was 22 when theothers were like 19.
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Wow, I was thinking she was like 25 when the others
were like 19.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Okay, no, she was 22 when the others were like 19.
And she actually she was verydriven.
So in fact she was not cast inlike she, she wasn't on the
shortlist.
They had the 2000,.
They narrowed it down to like adozen and she wasn't one of the
dozen but she was.
She was gonna be in this groupand so she showed up to the
dozen.
She was she was gonna be inthis group and so she showed up
(11:06):
to the dozen, like the thecontinuing auditions of the
smaller group, and she just hadso much energy and drive and
ambition that she did end up ummaking the cut.
So they got this new, this newmanager who was annie lennox's
manager.
He's the one who got them thepepsi spot and I think he also
(11:30):
got them the movie.
And then they weren't happywith him either.
So they they dropped him andjerry did, did it, did the work
for a while, although part ofthe reason they dropped him was
because he was so demanding hewasn't letting them rest at all,
jerry.
Jerry had some struggles withmental health and with eating
(11:50):
disorder.
More than one of the girls hadeating disorders.
It was the 90s yeahyeah, uh, and jerry had actually
like checked herself into a, animpatient place because she was
really struggling and and theyput her on zoloft and and she
was having trouble again and themanager I think it was his name
(12:10):
was simon fuller.
He like wouldn't give her timeoff and when she's like I'm, I'm
unwell, so that's when theyleft, so that's when they left
him.
She was doing the managing, itwas gruelinging, and their whole
arc, this meteoric arc.
They were top of the chartswith multiple songs.
It all fizzled within like twoyears, that quickly.
(12:36):
Okay, yeah, okay.
So Jerry left the band afteronly about two years.
The other four continued totour, and after only about two
years, the other four continuedto tour.
So, their shtick was that theywere archetypes.
Right, the five of them werefive archetypes and initially-.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Oh, okay.
Yeah, I think you're about totell us I was going to be like.
Was that something that waspart of the audition process and
all of that?
Speaker 1 (13:02):
No, that actually was the girls of the audition
process and all of that.
No, that actually was the girls.
So in fact, the girls and theirlater manager, the, the father
son duo, who started it, wantedthem all to dress alike, which
is cause that was kind of theboy band.
Oh yeah, yeah, that's what theyhad been thinking and it it
wasn't quite working for them.
So the new manager, clean.
(13:23):
I don't know if this iscorroborated, but I read it in a
story which from either the NewYork Times or the Guardian,
which I will link to in the shownotes, that actually Annie
Lennox told Fuller whatever theyare, have them lean into that
and do over the top whatever thesort of kernel of their
personality is, play it up, sothey become a persona and a
(13:44):
caricature of that.
So they were these fivearchetypes which then got named
by a journalist at top of thepops.
So their spice names came froma journalist.
It did not come from themoriginally, but they completely
embraced it and made it a partof who they were.
So there are five names.
There was mel c who wasactually cast first.
(14:04):
She was the one black spicegirl who was scary spice, which,
um, y'all we will come back tothat yeah, so so scary spice.
Emma Bunting, who was theyoungest, who was the one that
you identified with in terms offashion, was baby spice, so she
wore these baby doll dresses.
She was always sucking on alollipop she wore her hair in
(14:26):
pigtails.
Um y'all, we're gonna come backto that as well.
Then there was posh spice.
That was victoria she's nowbeckham so and she came from a
fairly wealthy family and sortof lived into that kind of upper
(14:48):
crust affluence stereotype.
There was Jerry Hallwell, whowas kind of sort of not exactly
the leader.
She was the one who was theoldest.
She actually, the journalist,wanted to name her sexy spice,
or so I understand.
I was looking for kind ofdocumentation of that.
I remember that from thenineties.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
So I don't.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I'm having a hard time finding where she said that
, but I remember that from thenineties that that sexy spice
was floated and she was like,come on, everybody's sexy.
And so she went with ginger,since she was wearing her hair
very red Then.
I think it is naturally reddish, but she was very artificially
red, so she was ginger spice.
(15:29):
And then there was Mel C whowas sporty spice, who would wear
sort of track pants and runningshoes and tank tops and had
very buff arms.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
And she always had her hair up in a very tight
ponytail, didn't she?
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Usually yes.
So these were the five womenand they embraced these
archetypes which, all except forSporty, were still very
sexualized in terms of what theywore.
Which is not to say that Mel Cisn't sexy, it's just that her
(16:08):
clothing was slightly lesssexualized.
I mean, it was still sexualizedbecause even like she would
wear the tank, so she would wearlike a mesh shirt with just a
sport bra underneath or just aso or just a bandu sometimes
Like so, it wasn't that shewasn't sexualized, it was just
slightly slightly less so.
There was slightly less skinshowing often because, like
jerry, would wear these like abathing suit yeah, it was like
(16:32):
bustiers, I remember, and likewith just a body suit you know,
and then tall boots and anywaythey had this huge arc of fame
with a number one album, likeright out the gate.
And then they had this moviethat they were such a buzz that
this movie spice world actuallylike it's a who's who of movie
(16:56):
and music folks who agreed to bein it.
So we had, as you remember,meatloaf was in it.
Meatloaf had more than just acameo, he was a finer character.
Oh okay, he's in multiplescenes.
Meatloaf was in it.
Elton John is in the first fewminutes.
That is just a cameo, but he'sin the very first few minutes.
(17:16):
At one point they make a jokeabout Elvis Costello, where they
talk about how fame can be sofickle, and then he's the
bartender and ask them what theywant.
So elvis costello is in it.
It's like a muppets movie.
It sounds like it is like amuppets movie with roger moore
as this bizarre sort of like notbad guy exactly, but not a good
(17:36):
guy either.
He's the chief, he's like therecord exec or something, who is
actually calling the shotsabout what the girls do, not to
them.
He has an intermediary who'sRichard E Grant, who also was a
great actor.
Who's their manager, clifford,but Roger Moore.
It's over the top.
It's so campy.
So in the very first scene he'spetting a cat like a Bond
(17:58):
villain.
But then, later in the movie hepets a long-eared rabbit and
then a piglet that he feeds witha bottle.
It's just so weird.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
And just for listeners who don't know, Roger
Moore had played James Bond inthe 70s Right.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
So also Richard O'Brien, who we talked about,
who is the brilliant mind behindRocky Horror Picture Show, is
in it as a bad guy.
The brilliant mind behind rockyhorror picture show is in it as
a bad guy.
He's a bad guy, paparazzopaparazzo photographer who works
for a bad guy, like tabloidowner, who kind of reads to me
like a rupert murdoch kind of afigure, who's like intentionally
(18:39):
trying to bring them down Iremember there's a point where I
think it's like Jerry, someoneasks them like oh, do you want
to do this?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
And Jerry's like, oh, is the Pope Catholic?
And then they have the headlineis like they question the
Catholicism of the Pope, orsomething like that.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, it's actually even.
Yes, that is the joke.
And the thing she's respondingto is like something like do you
like boys?
Or it's something vaguelysexual.
Oh, okay, that she is saying isthe pope catholic and then the
next scene is the spice girlsquestion the religiosity of the
(19:16):
pope and then they like cut to ainterview with someone who's
like a bishop, saying like I'dlike to know what evidence they
have for that, I'd really liketo know.
Stephen Fry is in it.
No kidding, there's this likedreamscape where they're
imagining being on trial formaking bad music, like it's out
(19:37):
of style, and Stephen Fry is thejudge.
He calls them the wrong names,like there are two girls named
Mel and he calls them Melvin.
And then, after he passesjudgment on them, he says now
call Fouty and the Blowfish.
So it's like full of thesestupid topical jokes.
(20:00):
George Wendt is trying to pitcha movie to them.
So it becomes this very circularwhere the movie that they're
pitching is the movie that we'rewatching.
So there's this scene whereVictoria is driving the bus to
try and get them to their AlbertHall live gig.
And it's a big Londondouble-decker bus that's painted
with the Union Jack and hasspice on the roof.
And the writer is saying youknow, they're rushing to get
(20:25):
there and they're approachinglondon bridge and, oh no, it's
raising to let a boat through.
And are they crazy enough totry and make the jump?
Jump, it's, it's insane.
And george went goes, it'sexpensive.
And then it cuts to a veryclearly a model of london bridge
and this little model Brit likebus with like, like, visible
(20:47):
wires, and it makes the jump.
And then you cut back to Georgewent going or not.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
George was Norm from.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Norman Right, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So there's really very littleplot to this movie.
It was based on sort of HardDay's Night, it's just.
It's really like an extendedmusic video that has the barest
of a plot in order to kind ofstring it all together.
It's just silly and it'sdelightful, it's so much fun.
(21:21):
There's like a flashback withthe guy who owns the pub or the
diner where they used to hangout, and it's the dad from
Fleabag, that actor is thefriend Brian, and really the
lesson of the movie is thatfriendship is more important
than money.
(21:41):
It's more important than a livegig.
They have a sixth friend who ispregnant and on her own.
The baby daddy has left her andshe goes into labor the night
before their big gig at RoyalAlbert Hall and they prioritize
their friend and they get toperform, they get their cake and
(22:02):
eat it too.
They get to perform, they gettheir cake and eat it too.
So so that's kind of the thebackground of this group and the
movie that they made and sortof how it hit in my life.
Like I'm about the same age asthese women and you know I was.
I was a, I was a junior.
I was a junior in college, atOberlin college, which for those
(22:22):
of you who don't know is like abastion of liberalism, and you
know I was.
Mom reminded me that at thattime in my life.
I don't remember what I wasreading about, but I was reading
about something about the waythat, like, western medicine
controls women's bodies and Iwent to mom and I was like,
don't you dare take hormonereplacement therapy for
(22:42):
menopause?
And mom was like it's not timeyet and also like, excuse me.
So I'm just trying to givelisteners, like the context of
who I was in that moment, whichI was, by the way, listeners, I
was wrong.
I was wrong.
I am going to seek out hormonereplacement therapy.
(23:04):
Just FYI, sorry, ann, I wassimilarly radicalized when I was
wrong.
I am going to seek out hormonereplacement therapy.
Just FYI, sorry, anne.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
I was similarly radicalized when I was reading
Ina May Garten when I waspregnant and so I was reading
midwives and stuff like that.
I was just like Westernmedicine policing women's bodies
, medicalizing natural processes, and then at the same time it
was just like, yeah, I'm nothaving baby at home, yeah,
(23:28):
anyway.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
So continue, so that that that was the context of
sort of where they got insertedinto my brain and sort of what
was happening.
And so, looking back at themnow in 2024, there's, there's
some things that stand out to me.
Let's come back to thenicknames that this journalist
(23:53):
gave them but which theyembraced and we all embraced,
and scary and baby, scary andbaby, and like maybe I'm just
old spice.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
But you had that locked and loaded, didn't you?
Speaker 1 (24:12):
We actually made that joke in the nineties.
We all tried to give each otherspice names and that was.
There was a professor that Itotally had a crush on but I
would hang out with occasionally.
I think he knew I had a crushon him and just I mean
occasionally.
I think he knew I had a crushon him and just I mean I think
he just enjoyed the attention.
Anyway I called him old spice,but okay.
So yeah, so maybe I'm just oldspice but like why did we think
(24:39):
that was okay to call the oneblack spice girl scary spice and
so here's the thing and I'mlike just thinking about this.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
So I hadn't thought about it in 25 years, but I
remember it being like okay thatshe was Scary Spice, because it
was about how she had her hairin, like she did her hair very
differently in like Bantu knotsand things like that.
So I was like, oh no, it wasabout her hair.
And then I'm like, how is thatnot about her being black, right
like that, like that?
(25:12):
I had that thought.
That was like what made it okayback in the 90s and I was just
like, oh, it was about her hairjust now.
And then I'm like, holy, no,that's grim, that's gross,
that's awful.
How is?
Speaker 1 (25:22):
that, and I mean the way she talked about it in in
preparation for today.
There was they did an ehollywood story about the vice
girls and she talked about inthis interview about how you
know she's kind of in your faceand she'll make these big like
tongue out, like big facialexpressions, and she always was
(25:43):
wearing animal print, like sheloves animal prints, and so
that's the way she was sort oftalking about it at the time,
that it was about personality.
But, like I don't know, I hopethat we wouldn't do that today.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Yes, Well, I'm just like, I'm thinking.
So, you and me, if we had beena Spice Girl not that we would
have, but if we'd been a SpiceGirl not that we would have, but
if we'd been a Spice Girlwearing animal prints and big
personalities we wouldn't havebeen Scary Spice.
We might have been Bagel Spice,Because that is what you
(26:25):
associate with a Jewish womanwho wears animal prints and has
strong opinions.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so likethat's opinions.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so like that's yeah, yeah, yeah,
and then maybe spice.
She was the youngest and shealso like this was part of the
Annie Lennox Simon Fuller adviceabout like taking like the
thing that is true and thenmaking it more so.
So if you like pink and fluffyand your mom's your best friend
and you're pink and fluffy andyour mom's your best friend,
(26:52):
you're pink and fluffy, 24 sevenand you're always have a
lollipop in your hand and youjust like play it up.
And so she did.
And also like how did we notsee that that was kind of like
Adophilia?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Like.
This was the same time when um,this was about when Britney
Spears debuted Right and the.
I remember being horrified atthe time at how like, because
she was under 18 when shedebuted and her first song,
which is escaping me but shewore that like Catholic school
(27:29):
girl uniform with pigtails.
But she wore that Catholicschool girl uniform with
pigtails and there were photospreads of her with her stuffed
animals and it was a big dealabout how she's saving her
virginity for marriage.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
And so I remember at the time of the Spice Girls is
that they give, we're giving andtaking at the same time, like
about baby, about scary, likethe, the racialized sexuality of
of mel c or, excuse me, mel b,that a scary spice.
And also especially compared to, even like christina aguilera,
(28:22):
who's about the same era, atleast in spice world, these
girls were remarkably asexual,right, they were very sexy, but
like there's one scene wherethey fly to Italy to film this.
You know to do this.
I don't know if it was supposedto be live or filmed or
(28:42):
whatever, but they're doingtheir song and then these like
nearly nude male dancers kind ofcome out to dance behind them.
Nude male dancers kind of comeout to dance behind them and
they're wearing like um captains, like sea captains, hats and
white, tight, small biker shortsand that's it these dudes are
wearing and the girls are likewhat the hell is this?
(29:04):
And they stopped singing andthey're like uh, no.
And their manager, cliffordRichard E Grant, goes to like
argue with the italian guy whosedancers these are, and like the
two dudes are like arguing,like almost coming to fisticuffs
.
Meanwhile we sort of cut and thegirls are kind of talking to
some of these male dancers andlike baby's like well, you see,
(29:24):
I've got this dolly and this,and she's like naming all the
stuffed animals that are in herbed and she's like so there's
just no room for you, mate.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
And like I remember that, I remember that joke now
that you say that.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
And then, like one of the others, was like I don't
know, like, look at his muscles.
It looks like there's likeferrets under there or something
.
He's like popping his pecs.
So, like these hyper masculine,nearly nude male models, male
dancers, who in a ChristinaAguilera video of the same time
(30:00):
there would have been somegrinding going on in the Spice
Girls movie, it was like ew, no,thank you, put some damn
clothes on Right, damn clotheson right.
And and the final, likecompromise actually, because we
do see them compromise.
They're dancing in these likethey kind of are like like
(30:21):
pinkish, purplish suits, likemen's suits, but they're not
because they're made out ofspandex but, then the dancers
turn around and they're assless.
So you know they're like.
Tongue is firmly in cheek atall times.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
And there's this like they're actually don't go down
the fully hypersexualized routethat one would expect, based on
the way that their costumerskidded them.
So something that strikes me isbecause what I recall from this
, I remember having a sense thatJerry was not necessarily like
the leader of the Spice Girls.
I didn't think of her like thatway, but I thought of her as a
businesswoman and I definitelythought of these women as having
(31:17):
much more agency within theircareers than I did with people
like Britney Spears andChristina Aguilera.
So what's interesting isthinking about that, because
they did definitely dress in asexualized way, but it really
(31:38):
felt like and maybe it wasbecause they leaned into the
these like archetypes that theyeach had, but it felt like it
was more their choice than itwas for for Spears choice than
it was for Spears.
I actually have a great deal ofrespect for Britney Spears,
which is something that 20 yearsago would be hard for me to
(32:00):
imagine, saying that justbecause of the conversation, the
national conversation we hadabout her and the way that she
was commoditized by everyone.
But with the Spice Girls, theimpression that I got was like,
yeah, I'm wearing a sexy versionof what I actually like to wear
(32:20):
, whereas with other pop starswho were sexualized, female pop
stars who were sexualized.
It felt like, okay, I'm goingto the, the, the people who are
making decisions, tell me towear.
Yeah, I don't have a choice.
Yeah, yeah, you know, and forthe, the ones, like you know,
the spice girls were like young,but they're all at least over
(32:43):
18 I'm not sure if emma was whenthey started, but okay, she
quick.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
If she wasn't, she quickly was like, yeah, and, and
as young as she was 17 yeah,this was.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
This was since there were auditions.
It feels like more more choiceinvolved than for um the.
I just britney spears and seemslike a Michael Jackson type
figure For sure.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Especially since her family was her managers.
I think it's really interesting.
So I think your assessment ofthem, of Jerry as the
businesswoman I think that'sactually accurate and even the
sort of not exactly leader,because my understanding is that
the original father-son duo whodid the auditions, who created
(33:35):
this band, were envisioning aclassical lead singer and backup
kind of a band and the womenthemselves were like handing out
the different solo lines sothat no one actually was a clear
leader Right Like.
(33:56):
I think Jerry often was sort ofthe loudest and I think she was
leading as the businesswoman, soin that sense she was leader,
but in terms of musically it wasnot.
You know, it was not sort ofthe lead singer with backup
singers.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
It was not the relationship musically, it
wasn't Gladys Knight and thePips, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
So that's an interesting thing.
You know that your perception.
I think there are things tocorroborate.
There are reasons that youthought that.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Well, the getting into it also just the fact that
the movie was all aboutfriendship and the importance of
friendship, and even thoughthis is a manufactured band, it
does it did feel like they werea cohesive group.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Well, so here's an interesting thing Like part of
the way that the original teammanufactured them was that once
they were cast, he sent the fiveof them to live together in a
three bedroom home.
Oh, wow, so, wow, so, yeah.
So the relationships didn'thappen organically, but that
(35:00):
doesn't mean they weren't real.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think they took a lot offlack at the time and and even
since, I think all bands, evenones that weren't like the
Beatles, got guff for not beingauthentically.
I mean, whatever, we don't needto talk about the Beatles.
But you know the Monkees like,can you remember the
(35:22):
conversations in our house abouthow they weren't a real group
because they had been cast aboutthe Monkees?
So I mean, that's the way thatthe music business talked about
that, like the serious criticsyou know.
And in fact they knew it andthey were like there's it fairly
(35:45):
early in the movie there's thisself self-deprecating line.
They finish a rehearsal and theguy who's like I don't know
their choreographer or whatever,he says like that was perfect,
that was perfect girls, withoutactually being any good.
And I feel like that line kindof epitomizes, the Spice Girls
(36:09):
and also it's not fair right.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
So what's interesting is it's this catch-22, this
no-win situation, because wehave this sense of real music
has to come about organically,organically.
But there are so many feweropportunities, especially for
(36:35):
marginalized creators, to createreal organic music just based
on so many different things.
So there's that aspect of it.
But then having something thatis created and specifically
(36:56):
tailored to like, okay, we wantto make hit songs, we want to
make pop songs, we want to dothis, which is a perfectly valid
way of making art.
And I'm thinking about when youwere talking about how Michael
Jackson, with Off the Wall, hadwon a Grammy and he's like
that's's not enough and so hespecifically went out to win all
the Grammys.
Yeah, and like, the idea thatthat is your end goal is
(37:22):
considered somehow illegitimate,and doubly so if it's women.
Yeah, because how dare they bein any way?
Speaker 1 (37:33):
ambitious.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Yeah, and then when they actually do create
something and like their messagelike this is the other aspect
that I was thinking about injust the difference between the
Spice Girls and other female popstars at the time is that they
knew that they appealed to girlsand with the like, the Italian
(37:58):
dancers and and all of that andthe tongue in cheek stuff, they
are in some ways giving with oneand taking, taking away with
the other, but they are tryingto create a message that it
really is about friendship andthe comfort of your stuffies.
(38:18):
You don't need to make room fora mate, it doesn't matter how
many abs he has, and so they'revery intentionally crafting this
message of it's about the fiveof us and our friend who we want
to help, who's having a baby byherself, and it's about the
solidarity among the five of uswho you know.
(38:38):
It's like we have to deal withall of these, these hoops that
we have to jump through, wherepeople are going to take
everything we say out of contextas opposed to.
You know, other manufacturedfemale pop stars is about like
it's the male gaze.
Like this is, you know, othermanufactured female pop stars is
about like it's the male gaze.
Like this is.
You know, we know that littlegirls are going to emulate this,
(38:58):
but who cares?
It's about the male gaze andactually all the better so that
we have more young girls who aredressed like this.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yeah, yeah, and I think it's interesting that then
part of the reason we as aculture and sort of serious
music critics felt justified incompletely panning this group
was because they did appeal toyoung girls crazy for them, and
(39:28):
that's actually something else Iwant to talk about now that we
are 25, 30 years later.
Some of the young girls thatthey influenced, like frigging
Adele, was one of them.
Like Adele says unironically, Iwas a huge Spice Girls fan, a
(39:48):
huge Spice Girls fan.
So now we have this talent thateven serious music critics
can't help but appreciate.
Who says they made me sing intomy hairbrush, they made me want
to do this right, and so Ithink that's also like an
interesting twist, and it's noteven a twist.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
It's an additional layer to the short sightedness
of the so-called serious musiccritics who completely dismissed
this air quotes, manufacturedthis air quotes, inauthentic
this perfect but not very goodgroup who was wildly popular.
Yeah, I've talked before abouthow the erasure of marginalized
artists influences and I thinkthis is part of it as well, in
that, let's say, 50 years fromnow, 100 years from now, let's
(40:55):
say 50 years from now, 100 yearsfrom now, adele is like a
serious artist.
I mean, she's won Grammys,she's amazing, she is amazing,
and I imagine that biographersin 50 or 100 years will just
skip over, like, oh, that'sembarrassing that she says that
about the Spice Girls becausethey weren't serious, and so,
and that happens over and overagain where if there is
(41:17):
something that people wereinfluenced by that was popular
but it was like generallyappealed to young women, then
we're just going to dismiss it,we're just not going to mention
it, and so like, and good onAdele for like, no, I love them.
They made me want to sing.
I'll include a link in the shownotes.
But I read a book called and itwas actually I read it because
(41:40):
Neil Gaiman said it blew hismind.
It was a book called how toSuppress Women's Writing by
Joanna Ross, which sheoriginally wrote in the early
80s.
Joanna Ross was a she mightstill be alive, come to think of
it a science fiction writer,and so she was talking about the
lack of women in sciencefiction writing.
Now, the early 80s version ofit was not intersectional and I
(42:02):
read an updated version whereshe was much better able to see
the intersection of variousmarginalizations.
Intersection of variousmarginalizations.
She's a white woman.
She was very focused on whitewomen, but it blew my mind
because it helped me understandwhy I so often feel like I can't
(42:22):
have influences if I want to bea serious writer.
I can't love Barbara Michaels,who I literally every week I
would go to the library and getthree more of her books because
she wrote like 70.
And like I worked through themall because I loved them, but
they were women's fiction, solike and you know, romance
(42:46):
adjacent, so I couldn't admit toanyone that I really liked them
.
Yeah, I just I think thatthat's really fascinating and
part of like there are.
There are so many axes on whichthe Spice Girls can be
dismissed, like they're women.
It was an audition process andnot organic.
Uh they, they sang pop musicand like pop music isn't real
(43:08):
music and they didn't writetheir music.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
They didn't write their own music, they didn't
play any instruments.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
Yeah, but like Wannabe is a banger, I mean, my
God, if that song comes on atthe gym, you speed up.
That's a damn good song.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
You know.
It's interesting too, because Ithink also the message of like
that song, then they lived ittoo.
Like, if you want to, if youwant my future, forget my past,
right as one of the lyrics.
Like so, like you don't knowwho I am Right and I'm going to
(43:47):
be who I am, and if you want tobe my lover, you got to get with
my friends.
Yep.
And so, in the height of theirpopularity, one of the tabloids
in Britain got a hold of somenudie photos that Jerry did when
she was younger and publishedthem.
So you know, Spice Girls getsspicy, you know you can imagine
(44:12):
the horrible headlines and theother girls just rallied around
her and were like yeah, I mean,she did it Okay.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
We all have tits.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Can we talk about our album now, you know?
And so it was sort of this sortof refusal to cancel, refusal
to apologize for who they wereand even the way that they said
it in their own words, like MelC Sporty Spice would say, the
Spice Girls are about just thefreedom to be who you are, just
(44:49):
be who you actually are, whichis not a message that any of us
get very often, but especiallycertain intersectional
identities don't get that.
So this is really interesting.
In addition to the hugepopularity among women and girls
, spice Girls are wildly popularin the lgbtq community,
(45:15):
especially among gay men.
Their different archetypes andcharacters have become drag
personas of of different um dragperformers.
Several of the spice girls havebeen guest judges on rupaul's
drag race and that has become athing that like they've become
truly beloved and and kind oficonic for for members of that
(45:38):
marginalized community, which Ithink is also like really,
really interesting.
And that knee-jerk like oh no,that you know 20 year old tracy
had when they first came out tothese like hyper-sexualized
archetypes I had, I, that 20year old Tracy didn't see that
even a little like maybe, maybeat 20 and 21,.
(46:03):
I looked at Mel C sporty and waslike, hmm, I wonder if she's
gay.
That was the extent of how Ithought about the Spice Girls
effect on, or meaning to, folkswho might be marginalized
because of their sexualorientation, because of their
(46:23):
sexuality, and I don't thinkthat that should be downplayed
Like I'm glad I see that now,I'm glad that that message was
so front and center in thiswildly popular pop group.
(46:44):
What one writer called agateway drug for feminism, a
gateway drug for coming out of acloset, maybe, you know, like a
gateway drug for, like, leaningin a little more to the thing
that you really like.
But that might make you alittle bit of a weirdo.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
You know, it's interesting that I'm thinking
about, like part of what I'mreacting to with the Spice Girls
and putting them in comparisonwith other female pop singers of
the time is it's not that theyhad total control or agency of
their look or any of that, butthere is this sense of
(47:29):
especially with Jerry's nudephotos being published as an
attempt to shame them is like Iam unapologetically a sexual
being, so why, why are youtrying to shame me for that?
And there I got a sense of thatin terms of the way that they
(47:50):
each presented themselves as anarchetype and you know,
obviously, yeah, they leanedinto it, but there is this sense
of like be who you are and beunapologetic about it.
And you know, there in thenineties we got a lot of like
women taking control of theirsexuality as as like feminism
(48:11):
and yes and no Cause, as with somany things in in in feminism.
Like we were talking aboutJamie Lee Curtis's character in
trading places, where she is asavvy businesswoman, she's not
shamed for being a prostitute,she has taken control of her
sexuality and her finances andher life, but she's still in
(48:33):
this machine of late-stagecapitalism, Right, and so it's
not exactly a triumph, Right?
And so there's a similar sort offeeling with the Spice Girls,
but thinking about what thismeans for people in marginalized
sexuality groups when it is amainstream group that is showing
(48:56):
something like that, and I,just before we got on, I will
put YouTube on in the backgroundwhile I'm doing something that
doesn't require my fullattention.
And so there was a Ms Mojo videothat I'll share in the show
notes.
That was talking about, I thinkit was like 20 celebrities who
were like shut down homophobicquestions or were true allies to
LGBT community, and one of themwas talking about Judy Garland
(49:20):
and how, in the I think the 70s,it might've been the early 80s
she was asked about her gay fansin a way where, like they're
like it was extremely offensiveand she shut that shit right
down.
And the voiceover for Miss Mojowas saying like she recognized
(49:40):
that this was a major part ofher fandom and that she gave,
specifically with Wizard of Ozand Somewhere Over the Rainbow,
this idea is there's a placewhere you can be yourself, and
whether or not that wassomething she was aware of at
the time of making Wizard of Oz,she knew by then that this was
(50:00):
part of her fandom and that shewould not tolerate anyone being
nasty to the people who lovedher stuff and found meaning in
it Right, and so I'm thinkingabout that as well.
You know, I doubt that goinginto this just as you didn't see
it as a 20-year-old that therewas this possibility for, like
(50:22):
the LGBT community to embracethem.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
They've said it surprised them, yeah, and that
they're grateful for it.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
Yes, but the the, the response to that, to like this
means something to me.
It made me feel like moremyself.
It made me feel like I could bewho I am and be loved.
And for the Spice Girls to belike that's wonderful.
Yes, I will be a judge on DrewBall's drag race.
(50:52):
I can't wait.
There's something just lovelyabout that and that's part of
where because you and I wereraised with this idea of there's
a right way to create art, youknow, like that's not real music
you know, like best of albumsaren't real music.
(51:12):
They're not real albums.
They're not real albums becausewe we grew up with that very
rigid thinking.
I think it's wonderful to lookback on something like Spice
Girls and recognize how muchgood can come out of something
that is not quote, unquote realart, because it doesn't matter.
(51:35):
It doesn't matter how it wasmade, it doesn't matter what the
impetus was, it doesn't matterif it was like yeah, you put a
poster up in your ninth gradeclassroom saying looking for a
drummer and you've been friendsever since.
Or if you answered a castingcall.
If you make something that'sbeautiful and is meaningful to
(51:57):
people, then you've put goodinto the world is meaningful to
people, then you have put goodinto the world.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that feels like a goodplace for us to pause and look
back and see if I can try andsynthesize a little bit of some
of what we talked about aboutthe Spice.
Girls.
So the Spice Girls, you knowhitting the scene the way they
did in the mid-90s, way they didin the in the mid nineties.
They in some ways kind ofepitomize feminism of the mid
(52:27):
nineties, which gave with onehand and took with the other.
So we had these five women whoin many ways had more control
over their careers than many oftheir contemporaries.
They are still uh the spice.
The first album is the bestselling album by a girl, all
female group ever.
Still that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
I would have expected Destiny's Child to be further,
oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
So in many ways they were, you know, had greater
agency than many of theircontemporary female artists, and
also they were forced into thishyper-sexualized version, each
of them of themselves and aschedule that was absolutely
(53:18):
grueling.
And a scrutiny that wasabsolutely grueling and a
scrutiny that was punishing suchthat more than one of them had
eating disorder.
They all had body issues.
I didn't even tell.
I read when I was reading aboutthem.
After Victoria Posh Spice hadher first baby, eight weeks
(53:40):
after the child was born, shewas on a talk show where he
weighed her to see if she wasback to her pre-baby weight.
Yeah, emily's eight weeks.
Yeah, I mean not that, that'sever okay, I don't care if it's
a freaking year.
It is not acceptable to weigh awoman on an actress on a on a,
(54:02):
or a musician on a on a morningshow or whatever a talk show.
It's not okay, unless it's oneof those biggest losers.
And even then we I don't thinkwe should be doing that Like it
doesn't matter, yeah, anyway, soyou know the kind of.
So these, so these women, sothese women.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
There's also the tabloid culture in Britain.
In the UK is like so ugly.
This is a British show that didthat.
Yeah, it's so ugly in ways thatAmerican like I'm not saying
ours is perfect at all, but it'sugly in ways that we just don't
do Agreed, agreed, differentways, yeah, so they were undered
(54:40):
Different ways.
Speaker 1 (54:41):
Yeah, so they were under constant scrutiny,
constantly being told theyweren't good enough, they
weren't good musicians, theyweren't good dancers, they
weren't pretty enough, theyweren't thin enough, they
weren't.
They weren't, they weren't,they weren't.
Meanwhile, one of the mostwildly popular pop groups of the
20th century, period so, bothin the abstract, in terms of
(55:08):
like what they represented, andin the way that they were
received by the world, theyepitomize sort of the push and
pull of feminism of the 90s andwhat it is to move through the
world with a body that ismarginalized by our culture.
There are some seriouslyproblematic things about their
(55:31):
archetypes and the names thatthey were given by this
journalist at Top of the Popsthe fact that the one black
Spice girl was named Scary Spice.
The fact that we had this, theyoungest, who was blonde and
blue eyed, who was named BabySpice, like these things are.
It's almost like they weresaying the quiet part out loud
(55:55):
and nobody reacted, and I reallywish that.
Or maybe they did and I wasunaware of it, but I really wish
there had been more in the 90spushback to say like, um, this
doesn't feel right to call theblack woman scary like hello,
and the way that Jerry pushedback on being sexy spice.
(56:19):
Which was in part, as I recall.
Again, I couldn't find anyarticle that talked about this
today, but I recall her beinglike as if we aren't all sexy.
So even her rejection was partof the rejection of the leader
and followers that all five ofthem had been sort of pushing
(56:42):
from the beginning.
So some of the ways that thesefive women pushed back against
kind of what was expected ofthem was that the the two men
who created the band wanted themall to dress alike.
He wanted them to be sort ofthe he, he says.
He wanted them to havediversity of like heights and
(57:04):
body styles so that their fanscould see themselves in the
girls.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
But then he- wanted them to dress alike.
Speaker 1 (57:12):
Yeah, I know, I know, like they were all tiny.
Speaker 2 (57:15):
They were all tiny yeah, I mean, I remember that it
was.
There was a thing made of thefact that Geri was like
relatively short, like 5'1".
I don't remember how tall, andI remember there being, and then
she's very busty, she's curvy.
Speaker 1 (57:29):
She's very curvy, but she was also very thin because
she had an eating disorder.
Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, but thatwas a diversity of body styles
at the time, right, whee, yeah,but that was a diversity of body
styles at the time, right, wee,yeah, so, and there was this
push and pull like, where thegirls were sort of over the top
(57:50):
versions of themselves but alsodressed for the male gaze, but
also they were things they werecomfortable in.
Just more so, and in fact theymake that point in the movie.
There's this one sort ofmontage.
It's a photo shoot and they tryon each other's clothes and
they're like being each otherand they're all kind of like
this is uncomfortable, how doyou wear this all the time?
(58:11):
Oh, I don't like this.
This is how do you wear thisall the time?
Of course, jerry's in Mel CSporty's outfit and and she's
like, actually, this is reallycomfortable, but the rest of
them yeah like.
Speaker 2 (58:25):
The implication is that mel b is comfortable in
what the you know, the bodysuits that she was wearing and
the jerry was comfortable in thewell and that bathing suit that
she was wearing, that actuallythat speaks to why this would be
so beloved by the transgenderand gay community in that, like
(58:48):
you know, it's just like there'snothing wrong with any of these
.
This is just what I'mcomfortable wearing, right and
like.
I like it and I look good in it, yeah, so that that montage.
Speaker 1 (58:57):
Actually I really loved it.
They didn't just try on eachother's clothes, they tried on
all different kind of personas.
So like there's this one scenewhere Sporty is dressed Sporty
and I'm not sure who the otherone was, I think Baby.
It was Baby, but they werewearing like grease and Sporty's
dressed as like a greaser, likea man in, like the rolled-up
jeans and like the big pompadour.
She a man in like the rolled upjeans and like the big
(59:19):
pompadour.
She looks great, by the way, butthey did a little gender
bending too, like somebody elsedressed as Elvis, like in this
montage, which is just a I meanthe whole thing is a throwaway
and so it wasn't like a.
Speaker 2 (59:32):
That's the thing.
Like, even a throwaway can bemeaningful.
Yeah, yeah, you know like andand they full and they're just
having fun, which is part of Ihave noticed over and over again
in this project we're doing isthat so often we're just
reacting to the fact thatthey're having fun.
Speaker 1 (59:51):
I think you are exactly right.
I think you're exactly right.
We didn't talk about thatbefore, but I think that's a
great.
The synthesis is a great placeto name that.
That I think part of theirappeal despite the fact that
they were so-called manufactured, that these five women all
replied to a casting call isthat the chemistry between them
feels real.
(01:00:11):
And the fun that they arehaving feels absolutely real.
I think that the Pepsi spot thatthey did that's part of what
Pepsi was looking for.
That's part of what makes Idon't drink soda.
I don't particularly care forsoda, but I was watching that
spot to prepare for this.
I was like damn, that lookslike fun.
I love Pepsi.
(01:00:31):
Those girls were having fun.
Yeah, yeah.
So I think you're exactly rightthat the just joy of friendship
and of dance and of music andof what they were doing is part
of what made them so wildlypopular.
Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
Yeah, dressing up, being themselves or being
versions of themselves.
Well, and it's interesting too,because we come from like
relatively rigid background interms of thoughts about art, but
there's also thoughts aboutlike friendship, like you know,
like that you should makefriends in one way or another
(01:01:12):
way.
Yeah, that it's likeillegitimate somehow to make
friends by going to a friendmeetup or whatever.
So now this is partially like Ithink that people have relaxed
a little bit about this, butit's still like it's so hard to
make friends as an adult.
But this was in 97.
This was back when internetdating was like really, really
(01:01:37):
looked down on.
Speaker 1 (01:01:38):
Yeah, it was totally stigmatized.
People told lies about how theymet.
Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
Yes, and so like that sort of thing, like everything
has to be organic or else it'snot real, and yet like there's
this genuine camaraderie andchemistry and friendship among
these five women who answered acasting call.
Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So the through line for meabout the Spice Girls looking
back is sort of the push andpull, the give and take in the
ways that I think that was oftenpositive, sort of str in the,
in the, in their parent, in theway that they showed up with
(01:02:23):
other other characters and evenin that moment, with the nearly
nude male dancers where itwasn't just baby, like all five
of them were like oh, this isnot okay, you know so.
So there's this, repeatedthrough line of both and both,
(01:02:47):
and for the Spice Girls, andit's really interesting to look
back on, you know, and it showsup in multiple places.
Right, they were both wildlypopular and panned by the
critics.
They were both trivial and notimportant.
And also Nelson Mandela waslike these women are my heroines
(01:03:09):
.
What Right.
They were both doing itperfectly and not very good and
also sold a bazillion copiesyeah you know, they were both
appealing to the male gaze andshowing up fully as themselves
(01:03:33):
ormaybe not fully, but showing up
as themselves, right like inways that they directed.
So there's this reallyinteresting kind of both and
with the spice girls phenomenon,and with these five women in
particular, that it makes senseto me now, looking back on it,
(01:03:54):
25, 30 years later, that theycaptured our imagination the way
that they did, because we wethought we knew exactly who and
what they were, but theysurprised us like the, the, the
knee-jerk, 20 year old tracy'sresponse was ugh, these are
(01:04:19):
two-dimensional characters justcreated to please men.
And I was wrong and I was right, and I think that tension is
part of what is so fascinatingabout them and I'm so glad too
that that tension opened up andI'm so glad too that that
(01:04:58):
tension opened up the tensionand the popularity opened up
space to ask these questions, tohave this gateway drug to be
like, yeah, friends are moreimportant than dudes and I can
be who I, who I, who I am, andif people don't like it, so I
like yeah.
(01:05:20):
So anyway, I feel like I it's.
It's funny to me that this isthe one that I'm a little like,
more scattered than I usually am, so I'm having a hard time
pulling together synthesis, butthat's where I'm landing and
it's really.
You know, when you asked meabout like why this one?
I didn't even mention I I don'tknow if I could find it again,
but somewhere there exists aphotograph of 21-year-old Tracy
(01:05:44):
wearing a tight red dress withthat like spray hair color red
and like blonde in the front andI'm pushing like two big palm
fronds away so that I'm likepeeking through these like
potted plants, as ginger spice,circa 1998.
And that photograph that's inmy brain, that's part of the
(01:06:08):
furniture of my brain, is that,like in an alternate universe, I
could be ginger spice.
You know, like there's and likeI don't want to be ginger
regularly, like we've talkedabout all the reasons that I
don't want to be gingerregularly, like we've talked
about all the reasons that Idon't want to live her life, but
even the possibility is likefun it's just fun yeah
Speaker 2 (01:06:31):
yeah so well, getting to, getting to try something on
for a while, yeah, yeah um youknow there's.
There's one thing we talked alittle bit before we started
(01:06:54):
recording that.
I just want to yeah, yeah,girls and women, like is
trivialized.
Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
Yeah, I think, I think we implied it, but I don't
know if we we spelled it outquite so clearly that, indeed,
yeah, that part of I think whatmade Roger Ebert I mean not that
Roger Ebert like held back whenhe didn't like something, but I
think part of what made it verysocially acceptable for Roger
Ebert to completely pan thismovie was that its biggest fan
(01:07:24):
base was girls, girls under 13,teenagers and young 20
somethings, like I was at thetime.
Yeah, and it's okay to piss onstuff that they like.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
Well, and if it's not made with a dude in mind, right
.
Then like, clearly, this is aniche, this is a niche thing,
and like I didn't like itbecause you know I wasn't
centered, yeah, right, right.
Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
Right, okay, well, this has been fun.
Thank you for coming with me onthis trek to the 90s.
I'm I'm gonna be playingwannabe after.
Yeah, and you know, listeners,if I made you want to watch, uh,
spice world.
I'm really sorry it is notstreaming.
I actually had to dig out myold vhs tape in order to rewatch
(01:08:21):
it.
It's.
I don't know if there's somesort of dispute about the music
or something, but it's notstreaming anywhere.
You cannot find this moviestreaming.
So I'm sorry for thatdisappointing news.
So, but okay, so it's your turnnext.
What deep thoughts are youbringing me next week?
Speaker 2 (01:08:42):
So next time I'm going to be sharing my deep
thoughts about the Addams Family.
So I'm specifically going to betalking about the two 1990s
films that had Raul Julia, soAddams Family and Addams Family
Values.
But I'm also going to get intothe original Charles Addams
comics because I really lovedthose.
I have not seen, wednesday, thenew show.
(01:09:04):
You should watch it.
It is so much fun.
I know I'll love it.
I know I will.
Speaker 1 (01:09:14):
This is me being commitment phobic.
No, you will love it.
You need to like clear sometime and just watch it.
You know Christina Ricci showsup in Wednesday.
She's like yeah, she's a sidecharacter.
Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
Yeah, yeah, no spoilers.
And Fred Armisen plays Fester,doesn't he?
I'm pretty sure.
So yeah, I have not seen that,and part of it is because I love
Raul, julia and AngelicaHouston so much as Gomez and
Morticia.
Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
These two, they do a good job and it's.
You know what's the guy's namewho plays?
I can't he's, but he's actuallyLatino and so and there was
like backlash for casting him,like what, but he was supposed
to Well, and he looks more likethe Charles Adams's drawings.
Yeah, Anyway, yeah, I it's,it's.
(01:09:58):
It's a mystery.
You're going to love it.
You're going to love it so much.
Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
You're going to love it so much.
So I have so much affection forthis story, the characters
created, and it kind of embodiesmy whimsical with an edge, is
my personal preference foreverything, my style, everything
.
So I'm really looking forwardto that.
I'm looking forward torevisiting the movies and
(01:10:27):
chatting with you about it.
Speaker 1 (01:10:29):
Cool.
Well, I look forward to hearingyour deep thoughts next week.
And, listeners, if our deepthoughts have engendered your
deep thoughts, we want to hearthem seriously.
So you can share them with usby emailing us at guygirlsmedia
at gmailcom.
You can go to our website,guygirlsmediacom and go to the
(01:10:49):
listener forum and let us knowthere, or you can find us on
socials.
We are each there under our ownnames.
Remember, tracy has an I E or weactually do have a couple of uh
accounts as guy girls media onInsta and although is TikTok
going to stick around, I don'tknow, who knows, it might be
(01:11:11):
gone by the time this episodegoes live.
Well, if TikTok still exists,there is a guy girls media
TikTok.
We don't post very often, butwe are there and, uh, we will
get your message and we do havean Insta.
So share your deep thoughtswith us and until next time.
Until next time, do you likestickers?
(01:11:31):
Sure, we all do.
If you head over to guy girlsmediacom, slash, sign up and
share your address with us,we'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy, butdon't wait, there's a limited
quantity.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
(01:11:54):
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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