January 16, 2024 • 57 mins
Come with me and you’ll be in a world of pure imagination…and capitalism
This week, Emily shares her deep thoughts about the 1971 classic film Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. She loves Gene Wilder’s funny and menacing portrayal of Wonka that still manages an undercurrent of sweetness, and the cinematography is a masterclass in how to make unwrapping a candy bar an edge-of-your-seat scene. But Roald Dahl’s hierarchical attitudes toward class, gender, money, and worthiness–not to mention his personal bugaboos about gum chewing and television–really undercut the magic.
Oompa loompa doopity dissen
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Mentioned in this episode
From the ‘chocolate factory’ to vet med
Gene Wilder died of Alzheimer’s. His family explains why they didn’t disclose his diagnosis
Roald Dahl himself made changes to the Oompa Loompas
Roald Dahl's family apologises for his antisemitism
Ian Fleming and Roald Dahl’s friendly rivalry
Quotations and Literary Allusions spoken by Willy Wonka
Lamb to the Slaughter by Roald Dahl
Roald Dahl’s letter about losing his daughter to measles
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Emily Guy Birken (00:00):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening
to Deep Thoughts about StupidShit, because pop culture is
still culture, and shouldn't youknow what's in your head?
On today's episode, I will bediscussing the 1971 classic
Willy Wonka and the ChocolateFactory with my sister, tracy
Guy Decker, and with you.
Let's dive in.
Tracie Guy-Decker (00:21):
Have you ever had something you love
dismissed because it's just popculture, what others might deem
stupid shit?
You know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about, and so do we.
So come over, think with us aswe delve into our deep thoughts
about Stupid Shit.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
(00:42):
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Emily Guy Birken (00:58):
So Trace, this is a shared movie from our
childhood.
It actually came out beforeeither of us were born and was
already a classic in the 80s bythe time we were watching it.
But can you tell me what youremember about this version of
(01:19):
the story, because there's beenmultiple ones, and this is the
classic with Gene Wilder, therewas the remake with Johnny Depp
that really kind of missed themark, and now there is a new
prequel out with TimothyChalamet.
So we want to go back to thebasics, back to the original.
So tell me about yourexperience with this movie.
Tracie Guy-Decker (01:42):
Yeah, it, definitely.
This is one of those likebuilding blocks of my childhood,
our childhood for sure.
I have very distinct memoriesof watching it at Grandma's
house, grandma Betta's house,mm-hmm, I think the things that
come up first for me is themusic, actually, with Gene
Wilder singing about pureimagination, with the sort of
scary one when they're on theboat, the scary song.
(02:05):
Those are some of the thingsthat come up first, and then
immediately actually from TedLasso, which I don't think you
watched yet.
You should watch it, you'llenjoy it.
But from Ted Lasso there's likea brief interaction about this
story where one of thecharacters, leslie, says to
Rebecca something like, oh, andall those children died in that
(02:27):
factory.
And Rebecca is like, no, that'snot what happened.
And Leslie like Rebecca I'msorry, those children are dead
and like something about likeLeslie is a man and he's just
like very earnest and like sweetand something about his
delivery.
I was like, oh, my God, he'sright, those children are dead,
(02:47):
and like it's just totally likecolored my thinking about it.
So there's I'm sure there'slots more.
There's lots of like momentsthat I remember, as like the
snapshots of them that kind ofbubble up as memories.
But I don't need to get intothose.
I'm sure that some of them willcome up and I know there's a
(03:07):
lot there.
Like, roald Dahl has becomesort of a controversial figure.
He's the guy who wrote the bookin the first place for various
good reasons that I expectyou'll get into.
And yeah, there's some lesssavory things.
I have a feeling hidingunderneath the fun songs about
imagination and the Oopaloopasjudging us.
(03:29):
But yeah, tell me what's atstake.
Why are we talking aboutCharlie and the Chocolate
Factory today?
Emily Guy Birken (03:38):
So I loved the film as a kid, really really
loved it.
I'm sure I know I saw the filmbefore I read the book, but
Charlie and the ChocolateFactory became one of the books
that I read over and over, andover and over again.
It's one of the early ones Ican remember just always wanting
to pick up and reread, whichhas become a habit of mine over
(04:02):
a lifetime.
I did that also with James andthe Giant Peach, but I think I
like Charlie and the ChocolateFactory even a little bit more,
so for me there's like apersonal connection to this
story.
It also I got to be the eightyear old going, oh, the book's
better, which I appreciate it,which is actually one of the
reasons why, when the 2005 TimBurton film with Johnny Depp
(04:25):
came out, I was not immediatelyhorrified because I was just
like, oh, ok, well, it'll becloser to the actual book
Because there are quite a fewchanges.
Some of them had to do with thefact that it's not an easy
story to film with 1971technology, and then some of it
(04:45):
just had to do with the changesthat were made in the process.
But so, like originally, I wasjust like, yeah, I'm excited to
see the Tim Burton versionbecause you know I might be
closer to the book and it wasbut I'm not a fan of that
version.
In any case, it was animportant part of my literary
DNA, my childhood.
(05:07):
I recently rewatched it with mykids.
They both loved it, and what isamazing to me is how well this
movie is made.
So the scene when Charlie findsthe golden ticket, it is a huge
thing.
(05:27):
It is a child unwrapping acandy bar, and the directorial
choices, the camera choices, theacting choices they asked Peter
Ostrom to do.
The boy played Charlie, themusic, all of that.
They do such a good job thatyou are on the edge of your seat
(05:49):
watching a little boy unwrap acandy bar.
And so that is part of thereason why this film has
remained beloved for over 50years now and why, even very
close to the end of his life,jean Wilder was still getting
like it's Willy Wonka frompeople as he went out and about.
(06:11):
So like.
The film is a masterpiece andit is one that I am very glad to
introduce my kids to.
In terms of how to tell a story,what choices can be made to
raise stakes for something,particularly when there are
things that don't make muchsense if you think about them
(06:34):
logically, and my love for JeanWilder comes originally from
this film.
There are many others that Ilove him in, but this was how I
was first introduced to him, andhe is amazing, magnetic,
magical, mysterious, terrifyingall of those things.
And there is a core ofsweetness under it all, even
(06:57):
under the terrifying aspects.
So this is an important movie.
You know, it's an importantmovie for me, it's an important
movie for our culture, but thereare some really ugly undersides
to this and I think that we cantrace them directly to Roald
Dahl and some of them, likethere's some, some dark
(07:19):
undercurrents that are just, Ithink, good storytelling.
You know, the fact that WillyWonka is not entirely
trustworthy as a character isnot necessarily a bad thing
about a children's movie.
The fact that terrible thingshappen to children is not
necessarily a bad thing in achildren's movie.
But there are other aspects ofthe story that I think deserve
(07:44):
our scrutiny and that we shouldreally really be cautious about
what that lesson is, that we'retaking in, that we're imbibing
and we're teaching our childrenwithout looking at it closer.
Tracie Guy-Decker (07:57):
All right, let's catch everybody up.
I mean, it's an over 15 yearold movie.
As you say, it's important tothe culture, so I think a lot of
our listeners have probablyseen it.
But let's just do the quick,like what happened in this movie
.
Emily Guy Birken (08:09):
Yeah, quick, quick thumbnail.
So this movie is about CharlieBucket.
They changed it to Willy Wonkaand the chocolate factory, even
though the book was calledCharlie and the chocolate
factory.
So Charlie lives in the sametown as the Wonka chocolate
factory, which has been closedto factory workers for some
(08:31):
period of time, like 15, 20years since, longer than
Charlie's been alive and he'sabout 10.
But it still is producingchocolate and nobody knows how.
Charlie is extremely poor.
He lives with his mother andhis four grandparents, Grandpa
Joe, oh yeah, all in the samebed.
Tracie Guy-Decker (08:48):
All in the same bed, grandpa, joe, grandma.
Emily Guy Birken (08:50):
Josephine, grandpa George and Grandma
Georgina.
Tracie Guy-Decker (08:53):
Yeah, yeah, much a narcissistic grandparents
Married people with their samename.
Yeah, okay, yes.
Emily Guy Birken (09:02):
So he lives with them.
We don't know where in the bookhis father is there as well,
but in the film presumably he'sdead because his parents are
still living with them.
His mother works as a in alaundry or something like that,
and Charlie has a paper route tobring some money in, because
(09:23):
otherwise all they eat iscabbage soup.
There is a major announcementthat Wonka will be opening up
the factory for five luckyindividuals who find a golden
ticket in one of the candy bars,and so first half of the movie
is basically about the firstfour people who find tickets.
There is Augustus Gloop, who isa child in Germany who it is
(09:47):
made clear that he is kind of aglutton, as are his parents.
Then there is Veruca Salt, whois the British daughter of a man
who has a nut factory.
He has, like this hugeproduction line of people who
shell peanuts for him, and heputs the production line at work
to open candy bars to find thegolden ticket for Veruca.
(10:08):
There is Violet Beauregard, whois actually an American gum
chewer, but she puts the gumaside for a little while until
she can find a golden ticket.
She is from Montana.
Then there's Mike TV who, if Iremember correctly, is from
Arizona, who is a kid who lovestelevision.
His mom actually says he'snever eaten a meal at the dining
(10:30):
room table because he alwayseats it in front of the TV.
People are led to believe thatthe fifth ticket has been found.
Charlie happens to find moneyin the street.
He buys a chocolate bar forhimself with the money and he's
starving because of how littlehe gets to eat.
He just swallows it down.
He's about to take the rest ofthe money because he found a
dollar the other 90 cents to gohome to give to his family.
(10:53):
He decides you know what?
No, I'm going to get achocolate bar for Grandpa Joe.
He gets a chocolate bar andlearns as he's walking home that
there is one ticket left.
He opens his candy and finds itthere.
On his way home he is stoppedby Slugworth, who was the main
rival to Willy Wonka, who offershim money beyond his wildest
(11:17):
dreams and security for hisfamily if he can give him an
everlasting gobstopper from outof the Wonka factory, despite
the fact that he has been in bedfor 20 years.
Grandpa Joe, as soon as he has areason to get up, gets up and
dances around because we've gota golden ticket.
He does stumble a little.
He does stumble a little.
They end up on the factory tourwhich is the very next day we
(11:42):
meet.
When we meet Willy Wonka, hecomes out of the factory on a
cane and is like kind ofstumbling his way to the front
gate.
His cane at one point stops,gets stuck in the cobblestones.
He kind of stumbles a littlebit and then does a forward flip
and jumps up.
(12:03):
Apparently Gene Wilder insistedon that.
He wanted it to be clear fromthe very beginning that you can
never know if you can trustanything from this character.
The reactions of the childrenwere genuine because they did
not know how he was going toenter.
They come in and they startseeing the crazy, weird, wild
stuff in the factory, startingwith the main chocolate floor,
(12:27):
which is actually a river ofchocolate through a candy meadow
.
We start to lose the childrenone by one.
First is Augustus Glup, who isdrinking the chocolate out of
the river, and he gets suckedinto the river and then up
through a tube into themarshmallow room, I think.
Next is Violet Beauregard whotries a gum that Willy Wonka has
(12:50):
made that creates a full meal.
It works until she gets theblueberry pie when she turns
into a blueberry.
Then is Ruka Salt, who wantsone of the geese that lays
golden eggs.
She jumps on top of the scalethat determines if it's a good
egg or a bad egg, and isdetermined to be a bad egg, she
(13:11):
gets shoved into the garbagechute.
Miketv decides to go throughthe TV.
They use a huge chocolate barthat they then send through the
TV that you can reach into theTV and take out.
Mike wants to do that too, sohe goes from being a normal kid
to being six inches high.
Meanwhile Wonka's workers, whoare oompa-loompas, which is a
(13:33):
fake people, who are only aboutknee high, according to the book
sing about what the childrenhave done wrong and otherwise
don't really interact with thekids.
By the end of the tour it's justCharlie.
In that time there was onepoint where his grandfather
convinced him to try a fizzylifting drink, even though they
were told not to.
(13:53):
Charlie says well, can I havethe lifetime supply of chocolate
now?
Wonka says you get nothingbecause you broke the rules.
Grandpa Joe says we're leavingand if Slugworth wants his
everlasting gobstopper, he'sgoing to get it.
Charlie returns it to Mr Wonka,who puts his hand over it and
(14:14):
says so shines a bright deed ina weary world, and he then says
you've won.
You've won everything, charlie.
And he reveals that this entirestunt was to find an heir.
He wanted a child to take overfor him because he wants to keep
making chocolate in the sameway, with the same magical way,
(14:36):
and an adult would have theirown opinions on things.
So he wants a child who he canteach, and the film ends with
him going in the great classelevator which goes up through
the ceiling of the factory andfloats over the over the city,
and that is the end of the film.
Yeah that's a lot, so let mestart with Roald Dahl, who was a
hell of a writer.
(14:57):
It's interesting that he'sknown for his children's stories
, so Matilda, charlie theChocolate Factory, the BFG,
james and the Giant Peach,charlie and the Great Class,
which was the sequel to Charlieand the Chocolate Factory.
I'm sure I'm forgetting some,because he did not like children
.
Tracie Guy-Decker (15:15):
He didn't.
Emily Guy Birken (15:16):
And he made it from Charlie.
Yeah, I have read some of hisshort stories that were intended
for adults that have verysimilar kind of bloodthirstiness
with endicoding.
So for instance, there's a.
One of his most famous shortstories is about a woman who
(15:36):
murders her husband with afrozen leg of lamb.
She's just just done done withhim, and so she clubs him over
the head with a frozen leg oflamb, then she puts it in the
oven and serves it to the policeofficers who come to
investigate the murder.
So similar kind of likeplayfulness and menace in there.
(15:59):
There's quite a bit of thatkind of like irony and playful
menace.
So I have immense respect forhis abilities.
I also have immense respect.
He lost one of his children toI can't remember if it was the
measles, something that there isnow a vaccine for and there was
(16:19):
not when she died and he wasvery vocal about the fact that
her life would have been savedby these vaccines, because
vaccine denial is something thathas happened every time we've
come up with vaccines throughouthistory.
So I have a great deal ofrespect for that.
Dahl, however, would not likeme because he was an anti-semite
(16:43):
.
He actually said, yeah, hitlermay have been a stinker, but he
kind of had a point about theJews.
Tracie Guy-Decker (16:52):
Whoa.
Emily Guy Birken (16:54):
And that's the word stinker Like.
Tracie Guy-Decker (16:58):
Yeah, that's the word that I want to use for
the man responsible for 11million deaths.
So ew Was he American.
Emily Guy Birken (17:09):
No, he was British, very British.
Yes, he knew Ian Fleming Like Ithink they served together in
the war.
The guy who wrote James Bondyeah.
Tracie Guy-Decker (17:19):
So, like Willy Wonka and James Bond, Like
we share a cinematic universe.
Yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (17:26):
And I think a lot of the negativity that I see
, the things that I find verydistasteful about Willy Wonka
and the books that I imbibed andloved as a child, stem from
Roald Dahl's early 20th centuryBritishness.
Tracie Guy-Decker (17:47):
In a lot of ways.
Emily Guy Birken (17:49):
He was very much an imperialist, whether or
not he described himself thatway.
So let's talk about theOompa-Lompas.
Tracie Guy-Decker (17:57):
Yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (17:58):
So the Oompa-Lompas are Willy Wonka's
workers who he rescued fromLoompa land where they were
menaced by horrible creatureslike verminous knids and wang
doodles.
And in the addition that I read, there were illustrations of
(18:20):
the Oompa-Lompas and they wereclearly shown to have brown skin
and were intended to look likeAfricans or maybe South Asians
South Asians, yes.
So when they made the 1971 film, it was already like oh, we
(18:41):
can't do that.
And I believe there were othereditions where even Roald Dahl
was like maybe we should changethe illustrations.
But they gave them the orangeskin and green hair to make it
clear that they are not humans.
Tracie Guy-Decker (18:54):
Right.
Emily Guy Birken (18:55):
But the way that Wonka talks about them is
he doesn't have to pay thembecause all they want is
chocolate or cocoa beans Cocoabeans, yeah yeah, which kind of
sounds like oh yeah, we paid forthe Isle of Manhattan with
beads.
You know, this is like that'sreally uncomfortable.
(19:16):
And there is this like whitesaviorism of like Willy Wonka
saved them from this horribleplace and brought them to a
factory where they don't see thelight of day.
Tracie Guy-Decker (19:29):
Right when they work for no pay.
Work for no pay or pay in food?
Emily Guy Birken (19:35):
Yeah, and where?
Considering the fact that Wonkaknows he's not going to live
forever or he chooses somerandom kid to be his successor,
rather, than who is white,rather than one of the Oompa
Loompas who have been workingfor him for years and know the
(19:55):
entire process already, and ouradults, and can teach others,
and I mean, and should berewarded for their work as well.
So, yikes, that's worrisome.
Tracie Guy-Decker (20:09):
Even the way that, even within the Gene
Wilder movie, to the way thatthe Oompa Loompas interact with
Wonka right, like he has thatweird little flute that he plays
, that they then show up, andthen there's it's very, it's
very differential.
The hierarchy is very, veryclear.
Emily Guy Birken (20:30):
Yes, and so the fact that you know all five
of the children who find thegolden tickets.
Now, when I was a kid, Iremember being like why is it
all kids who found goldentickets?
You know that just doesn't makesense to me Like grownups, like
Candy 2.
As I got older, I was like, whyare all five of them white and
(20:50):
speak English, with theexception of Augustus Gloop?
I mean, he does speak English,but he's got a German accent.
You know, like what's going onhere.
And then the fact that the onethat Willy Wonka chooses is the
blonde, blue eyed kid.
No, I don't remember howCharlie was described in the
book.
So that's casting decision.
(21:13):
Peter Ostrom did an amazing joband one of the things that I
most appreciate about PeterOstrom is that he refused to
sign a deal to make multiplemovies.
He made the one and then he wasdone and he is a large animal
vet now.
Wow, yeah, I don't know how hecame to that decision.
Don't know if that was hisparents or if he just was a very
(21:38):
, very preternaturally wiseyoung kid who was like, yeah,
this was fun, but I don't needto do this anymore.
But yeah, and I'm reminded of Idon't know if you remember this
, but I know Dad was horrifiedby, like the way child actors
are exploited.
But you need children in movies, like you can't make movies
(22:01):
without child actors, at leastsometimes.
And he's like they should onlybe allowed to make one film and
then that's it.
What's an option of coming backwhen they're 18.
Yeah, I remember him sayingthat.
Tracie Guy-Decker (22:11):
I think actually Drew Barrymore is the
one that when I that I rememberhim saying that about, I think
he saw us, and Drew Barrymorebecause she's about my age, yeah
, yeah, and so, like I thinkthat's the one that I remember
the most and so like I feel likePeter Ostrom is like the
template for that.
Emily Guy Birken (22:29):
So, in any case, the racism, colonialism,
imperialism, like whitesaviorism, just inherent in the
idea of Willy Wonka findingthese people telling them oh,
your homeland is awful, Comewith me and be my slaves,
(22:50):
basically yeah.
Yeah, kind of horrific.
And you cannot remove the OompaLoompas from the story of Willy
Wonka, like that is an integralpart of it and that's something
to kind of fix it in theTimothy Chalamet version.
I haven't seen it yet, but I'veread some articles about it.
I'm not super interested in itas a story but in terms of
(23:12):
imagery it looks gorgeous Likethat that I want to see.
But the explanation they giveis that like the Hugh Grant as
Anupalumpa would steal people'schocolate and so like part of
what the Timothy Chalamet'sWonka is doing is like oh, ok,
I'll give it to you so you don'thave to steal it and you know
if you work for me.
(23:32):
I don't know if that makes itbetter.
Is he the only?
I think he's the only one inthis, but I'm not sure I mean.
Tracie Guy-Decker (23:41):
I think a singular actually does make it
better.
Yeah, I'm not saying it makesit OK, I haven't seen it yet but
there's a does feel like a bigdifference between, like, taking
an entire people from theirhomeland, rescuing them with air
quotes in order to serve you inyour factory, versus one
individual.
That does feel different.
Emily Guy Birken (24:01):
Yeah, yeah.
So there's, that's big, big,it's a big ugly.
Tracie Guy-Decker (24:09):
Yeah, that's a mark in the hole.
That's a structurally ugly Like.
That's a piece of uglystructure in the storytelling.
It's not like a yeah, it's notjust a layer.
Emily Guy Birken (24:19):
that you could sort of wipe away.
So that gets to another aspectof this that I definitely did
not catch as a kid, and that ishow weirdly pro capitalist the
story is and pro ruling class.
(24:40):
So we find out when Charlierefuses to sell the everlasting
gobstopper that slug worth isn'tactually slug worth.
He's someone who his name is MrWilkins and he works for for
Wonka and this part I don'tbelieve was in the book, I
believe this was added for thefilm when Charlie returns the
(25:01):
everlasting gobstopper and islike I'm not going to sell your
secrets, that shows how pure ofheart Charlie is.
The thing is based on Charlie'sunderstanding of what's
happening.
That is objectively the wrongthing to do.
His family lives in poverty, heis constantly starving, his
(25:29):
grandparents share a single bed,his mother is works
backbreaking labor and this onepiece of candy from a man who
has been cruel to him couldensure that the security of his
family for life.
And once I saw it that way, Icouldn't like.
(25:52):
That blew my mind because youknow I was, you know, gold star
achieving rule follower as a kid.
And so of course Charlie doesthe right thing.
Of course he does the rightthing of giving that back.
Tracie Guy-Decker (26:06):
Well, that's the message of the movie as well
.
Yes, I mean that is absolutely.
He gets rewarded for it.
Absolutely.
That is the message we aregiven.
Is that this?
Emily Guy Birken (26:14):
is the right thing to do.
Tracie Guy-Decker (26:15):
But you're right he's.
He is respecting theintellectual property of a cruel
man over the needs of his ownfamily.
Yes, and it's the intellectualproperty as well.
He's not actually like he's notstealing from Wonka, right?
Emily Guy Birken (26:32):
Exactly.
Tracie Guy-Decker (26:33):
He's stealing intellectual property, but it's
not as though he is keepingWonka.
He's not even keeping Wonkafrom making money in the future,
right?
So he's not even stealing fromWonka's future, yeah, yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (26:49):
And boy, that's a mess.
Now it's a good thing thatCharlie did return it, because
Slughworth wasn't real and theywouldn't have had the security.
But he didn't know that, justas he didn't know that, like at
the end of the tour, he wasn'tgoing to get what he was
promised.
The other aspect of it is, bychoosing a successor the way
(27:12):
that he does, wonka is hoardinggenerational wealth instead of
sharing it with his workers, andhe is ensuring that there is no
change or innovation oranything like.
He is going to mold Charlie inhis own image, which is deeply
disturbing.
Tracie Guy-Decker (27:32):
Yeah, there's also in terms of the pro
capitalism message, like byshuttering the factory to
workers, Wonka has decimatedthis town Right and as viewers
we're meant to sympathize withhim for that.
We're meant to think he hasmade the right choice by
enslaving these obliquas so thathe doesn't have to pay the
(27:57):
folks who live around thefactory.
Emily Guy Birken (28:00):
Well, the reason why he shuttered the
factory was because Slughworthand other candy makers were
sending in spies as workers.
So it wasn't that he didn'twant to pay the workers,
necessarily.
No, I understand.
Tracie Guy-Decker (28:16):
I understand, but nevertheless, that is the
impact, regardless of theintention.
And, as I said, like so yourcompetitor has a similar product
.
Yeah, that's the way marketswork.
Emily Guy Birken (28:33):
That's also like, that's kind of the like,
the pro deregulated capitalism,it's pro monopoly really is what
it is.
Tracie Guy-Decker (28:41):
That's what it is.
It's pro monopoly becauseultimately that is how markets
work If you have a product thathas a market share and
competitors can recreate it,even approximate it.
That's how capitalism works.
The demand somebody is going tosupply, mm, hmm, mm hmm.
Emily Guy Birken (29:03):
Well, and it's .
It always struck me as reallyweird that the everlasting
gobstopper was the thing thatSlughworth wanted, because that
is not going to be a moneymaker.
It's the one that it's forchildren.
Very little pocket moneybecause it lasts forever.
None of that makes sense.
That's the wrong one.
Yeah, yeah, I'm like.
(29:23):
You're not going to buy morethan one of those, right?
I?
Tracie Guy-Decker (29:26):
mean the opposite of plan obsolescence
yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (29:30):
And that that I really feel like is so much of
that Like there are aspectsthat were not necessarily in the
book, but so much of it is, Ithink, representative of Roald
Dahl.
He was a product of his time.
I think he really did believein hierarchies of people and
(29:50):
believed that it's a meritocracy, while at the same time setting
up rules to make sure that hegot all the merit.
Tracie Guy-Decker (29:59):
Yeah, let's talk about that, because there's
a lot of judgment on these four, the four other kids that we
see.
So let's let's talk about thathierarchy of people and judgment
and meritocracy and like whatis meritous and what is not yeah
.
Emily Guy Birken (30:14):
Yeah, so I want to start with Ruka salt,
because I love her.
She is an icon I want the wholeworld yeah.
That's, and it's funny because Idon't remember how it came up,
but I was talking to my spouseabout the fact that I am
reevaluating Ruka salt now as anadult, and he's like, oh really
(30:36):
, and I'm like that, that, rightthere, that's exactly why I'm
doing it, because it was aspoiled little girl, not a
spoiled little boy.
And there is the inherentmisogyny within that, like, how
dare a girl or a female codedperson want things?
(30:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
And yes, she is a brat is thebest way to describe it.
It is very clear that herparents have never said no to
her, so she has learned thatthis is what one does.
This is how, like, she hasadapted to the world she lives
in.
But you also see, when shesings that song about I want it.
(31:20):
Now there's a point where shekind of like goes into this
frenzy and then she kind of likesmooths her dress and calms
down, smooths her hair, and sothere is also this like idea of
performance.
Same thing when she first shewants to be the first one in the
gates and she like performsbeing a sweet child because
she's been taught that's whatshe's supposed to be.
(31:43):
So I'm not saying that I haveany particular affection or
affinity for kids who don't, whocan't handle being told no, but
the fact that she is so welladapted to this world that she
has been given there's somethingjust like iconic about it, and
(32:08):
the fact that sheunapologetically wants what she
wants when she wants it, whenwomen are taught not to do that
makes me kind of love her.
Tracie Guy-Decker (32:19):
I'm thinking about the fact that in men it's
men and boys it's sort ofreceived as ambition and in
women it's received asentitlement.
Yes, yeah, and I mean I feellike that's the case regardless,
like that, that sort of like Idon't know why I don't quite
like her.
You know about ambitious women.
(32:40):
In fact, I think I was recentlyreading Glennon Doyle in
Untamed.
She talks about that, about thefact that and that she talks
about investigating in herselfwhen she reacts badly to to
other women.
Yeah, I think that's exactly it.
And men it's.
It's received as ambition andwe like it.
And we celebrate it.
(33:01):
Yes.
Or like he's driven, he's goaloriented, whereas women are seen
as entitled and overreaching.
Emily Guy Birken (33:12):
And the way that her father is portrayed.
He is portrayed as like thisharried hen, pecked like
Massaculated.
Partial man yeah, he'semasculated by her wants.
Yeah, when all he had to do wassay no, so I think that's the
case.
So I find I find her portrayalvery, very interesting.
(33:32):
I think it's is very muchreflection on Roald Dahl, who I
believe was was a misogynist.
I mean, I don't think he wentout, I was like I hate women but
I really do.
The way that he treated womenin his stories, even when he
subverted, so like the story Iwas telling you about with the
leg of lamb there, that was asubversion because no one
(33:54):
believed this sweet woman whowas feeding all the police
officers could do anything likeor so awful yeah.
He was subverting it.
But there's still, like, thissense of like.
You know well, you know there'ssomething wrong with this woman
because she couldn't do that,yeah, so there's that.
And then there's the the, theway that women and girls have
(34:15):
always been treated in 50 yearsago, what was just a given in in
making a film.
And in fact she gets one of theleast gruesome ends of the four
children.
She just falls into a trash,shoot Now they.
The furnace is fired everyother day, so there's the
possibility she's going to beburnt to a crisp Right and her
father jumps in right after her.
(34:37):
That is something I also neverreally appreciated as a kid.
Like he doesn't say goodriddance to bad rubbish.
He's like Varouka, honey, I'mcoming.
He loves his daughter.
He's really bad at loving her.
He thinks that loving her isgiving her whatever she wants,
and many people have that makethat mistake.
(34:57):
And he happens to be richenough that he can.
And the you see one scene withher mother where her mother is
saying like a happy child brings, brings joy to a home, or
something like that.
It's clear they're, they're,they're not a bad family.
Tracie Guy-Decker (35:13):
They're doing their best.
Emily Guy Birken (35:15):
They're doing their best.
They just don't have a goodsense of how to do it, which
then brings up would Charlie bea good person if you weren't
poor?
Right Like is is the only thingthat makes him good the fact
that he has nothing which is,which is another weird sort of
like pro capitalist.
(35:36):
Well, and fetishization of,like the worthy poor, yeah, yeah
, yeah.
So the other three kids.
Tracie Guy-Decker (35:44):
So Augustus Gloop that yeah, let's, let's
talk about poor Augustus.
Emily Guy Birken (35:49):
Yeah, the fat, and child doll was a fat child.
She was a small and cutehousewife.
It was called the Jack and theJack Jamer.
In James and the Giant Peachthere were two awful aunts James
is too awful, aunt Spiker andAunt Sponge.
On Spiker was like a skinny andon Sponge was fat, and they
(36:13):
both were bad women and thetheir shapes represented the
ways in which they were bad.
Aunt Spiker was too sharp, yeah, and wanted everything for
herself.
So it is not at all surprisingthat Roald Dahl wrote Augustus
Gloop as a glutton, as someonewho, despite the fact that there
(36:36):
is candy everywhere, the eyecan see that he can eat anything
he wants, but goes for thechocolate in the river which
he's not allowed to have.
You also see when the newsmedia is interviewing the Gloop
family, mr Gloop, they're eatingand they put a microphone into
(36:58):
Mr Gloop's face to say, like,what do you think about this?
And he eats the cover of themicrophone because ha ha ha,
isn't it funny when fat peopleeat?
And it kind of reinforces theidea that excess adipose tissue
comes from overeating and nothaving control of yourself.
Tracie Guy-Decker (37:19):
Yeah, I mean that's what the Oompa Loopa sing
about, yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (37:23):
Yeah, so you know again, completely
understandable why, where thatcomes from, particularly from a
writer who was writing in theearly mid 20th century and a
movie that comes out in 1971.
But poor Augustus did notdeserve that.
Nor did Mrs Gloop, right, she'smade fun of.
(37:45):
When she's like, oh my god,he's gonna be made into fudge,
and Wonka goes like, oh no, ofcourse that would never happen.
That goes to the MarshmallowRoom, right?
So, like well, how dare you beconcerned about your child who
just got sucked up into a tube?
Tracie Guy-Decker (38:01):
Yeah, so we still haven't spoken about
Violet and Mike TV.
Emily Guy Birken (38:06):
Yes, and in both cases those to me seem to
be Roald Dahl's specificbugaboos and the way that they
made it in the film was thatthey're both know-it-alls
Because Roald Dahl thought gumchewing was disgusting.
That's that that was his moraljudgment.
(38:27):
Like chewing gum is gross.
And in fact they, in the 2005update they made it that Violet
Beauregard was competitive.
She was a competitive gumchewer and it was about the like
wanting the gold star.
Being competitive is what wasbeing lampooned rather than the
gum chewing, and there is a bitof like the know-it-all aspect
(38:49):
of it.
There was the American-ness ofMr Beauregard, who was a used
car dealer.
Right is another aspect of it,which I, frankly, I don't blame
Roald Dahl at all.
There are some Americanstereotypes that are I'm
perfectly happy to havelampooned, but just that the gum
(39:10):
chewing is as a moral failingis just weird.
Tracie Guy-Decker (39:14):
It's in particular since Wonko was
working on gum Like, her mistakewas not chewing gum, it was
chewing gum that wasn't out ofR&D yet.
Yes, yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (39:28):
And then it's basically the same thing happens
to Mike TV, who he is reallyexcited to get I don't know sent
through the television.
Tracie Guy-Decker (39:38):
Yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (39:38):
Beamed through the TV without any thought for
the consequences.
Tracie Guy-Decker (39:43):
Right, he also does it before, right
before it's out of R&D.
Emily Guy Birken (39:48):
Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah.
His is actually makes even lesssense because, like with Violet
, it's like oh, I know gum, I'mtrying this gum.
With this it's like okay, Ijust saw something I've never
seen happen before and a giantcandy bar became a normal size
candy bar.
So I want to do that why.
Tracie Guy-Decker (40:06):
Yeah, yeah.
My recollection too is that hesays he wants to do it again and
then and his mom is like youwon't be exist if you're already
like whatever sanctioned, yeah,and Wonko says he's going to
send him to the taffy room tohave him stretched out.
Mm-hmm.
Emily Guy Birken (40:22):
And that's actually so in the book and
again in the 2005 version.
They do show the four childrenleaving.
They do survive.
They do stretch mic out becauselittle boys are remarkably
rubbery, which kind of that fitswith.
Like my spouse and I joked whenthe kids were much younger that
(40:42):
, like you know, they don't havebones when they're little.
Yeah like they, they.
They insert the bones at somepoint during a well child visit,
while the parents doing powerpaperwork.
Yeah.
Tracie Guy-Decker (40:53):
Yeah, they are definitely more bouncy when
they're little.
Emily Guy Birken (40:56):
So, yeah, all, all, all four kids survive
according to the book, and youknow, of the four, like Ruka
Salt has the least terriblething happen to her, because
she's just covered in rash.
Yeah, but the the, thejudgments of children as being
left wanting and, you know,worthy of an entire song about
(41:18):
their moral failings.
Tracie Guy-Decker (41:20):
Well, and the families?
Right, Because I remember, likewe know, who's to blame the
mother.
Emily Guy Birken (41:27):
The mother and the father.
Yeah, yeah, to be fair.
And gosh, I wish I'd had timeto reread the book.
I'm curious if the adding themom and dad as being to blame is
new in 1971 compared to the thebook, because I wouldn't put it
(41:48):
past all to just be like, yep,these children are rotten
through and through.
So it's, it's a mixed bag.
I do want to say.
I want to talk a little bitabout Gene Wilder's performance
and the addition of poetry tothe script.
I love that.
Gene Wilder is Wonka that iswhat he is best known for like
(42:12):
and even as a very old man.
And actually one of the reasonswhy he kept his Alzheimer's a
secret and did not go out muchas he got closer to the end of
his life is he didn't want toruin the magic for children,
which just makes my heart clutch.
It's just, it's just lovely.
He apparently I found somethingthis morning as I was doing a
(42:34):
little research.
Someone asked him how he, howhe felt about working with the
kids and he said four of themare fantastic.
I want to want to throttle sowhat he brought to the character
, which is different from how heis written in the book.
In the book.
He's just a little bitdifferent In the book.
(42:55):
In the book he's kind of like amanic pixie dream capitalist.
He brings a gentleness and likethe core of sweetness, as well
as a more overt menace.
Not that that's dolls, wonkawasn't menacing, but he was a
(43:17):
little more like all over theplace.
He was kind of ADHD, whereasthis Wonka he's not distracted,
he knows what he's doing at alltimes and he does not suffer
fools and is.
You know?
There is something, there's anundercurrent of menace there.
Tracie Guy-Decker (43:38):
Yeah, there's this.
I my sense, like in my memory,is exactly what you're saying
about the calculating, becausethere's even there are the
moments where we see, like whenAugustus has his hands in the
river and he's like, no, don'tstop.
Like he says the words, but it's, it's clearly the message is is
(43:59):
clearly the opposite of whathe's saying there's also, I feel
I feel like there's a pathos toWilders Wonka, in that final
moment that you have described,where Charlie puts the gop
stopper on the desk and Wilderputs his hand over it, and
there's this pause and there'sthis shift from having, when he
(44:21):
was short and barking and likeyou did this and you broke the
contract and the whatever, andthen into the sweetness where,
taken as a whole, we see he washurt.
There was, there was pain inthe earlier cruelty.
That then has been addressed inCharlie's kindness, which is
(44:44):
what we're meant to think.
I mean, is it in fact kindness?
I don't know, but that is,that's the way Wilder was
playing it.
That is part of what made himso sympathetic.
Emily Guy Birken (44:55):
Yes, yes, yeah , that that the pathos, that's.
That's exactly it.
There's that you also believethe like.
You know, I know I'm not goingto be around forever.
There is that that, like I'vebuilt this wonderful world and I
realize I have no one to shareit with, is kind of what's in
there as well.
Tracie Guy-Decker (45:14):
Which then comes back around to like the,
the normalizing of theObaloomba's aren't people?
Yes, they're there, they're noone, mm.
Hmm, because he's alreadysharing it with him.
Emily Guy Birken (45:26):
Yes, I will never not love Let me say I will
always love Wilder'sperformance as Willy Wonka, and
in fact there have been timeswhere I have because it's on
Netflix or something you knowit's streaming somewhere where
I'll just fast forward to theparts with him in it, because he
is magical and part of that isthat magic is not all good,
(45:52):
magic is not all beneficial.
There there is like a price formagic and he is real clear
about that, and so you know,that's something that I just
find really captivating abouthis performance.
Yeah, and I don't think I meanJohnny Depp seemed to be
(46:15):
channeling Michael Jackson.
I think he actually said thatI'm like I, so it was just
deeply unsettling his portrayal.
And I have I don't know muchabout Timothy Chalamet, but like
you're not going to be JaneWilder, you're not going to be
able to have, because even when,when he played like young
(46:36):
Frankenstein and stuff like that, he managed to have that like
over the top Performance andpathos when he was bloom in
what's that called the producers.
There's pathos in thatridiculous performance, which is
one of the reasons why I triedto watch the the version with
Matthew Broderick in GeneWilder's role and I was like.
(46:56):
It just doesn't work for mebecause you're not bringing that
like that core of sadness inthere that needs to be there for
me to believe that my blueblankie, I really appreciate
that, considering role doll wasan anti-Semite, that Gene Wilder
(47:17):
, who was raised in the Jewishneighborhood a couple blocks
away from where I live right nowin Milwaukee, is synonymous
with dolls character forever.
Like that makes me very happy.
The other thing that I thinkthat the movie does so well that
is completely absent from thebook is the poetry.
(47:40):
There are a number of differentlines of poetry throughout the
film and it came about becauseoriginally doll was contracted
to write the film, the script.
He apparently just keptreferring people back to the
book.
Oh, for this section, look atthe book.
And so he has the sole writingcredit, even though someone else
really wrote it.
(48:00):
They had written the script andit felt like it was missing
something, and the person whowrote it who's I'll have to link
in the show notes because Ican't remember his name decided
like this needs more, and so headded like lines of poetry.
So the one that I can rememberalways off top of my head is
(48:21):
when someone asks about likebutter, rum butterscotch and he
says.
He says Candy is dandy, butliquor is quicker, which is that
very short poem by Ogden Nashwhich is on breaking the ice, is
the title of the poem Candy isdandy.
Tracie Guy-Decker (48:35):
I thought that was Dorothy Parker.
Emily Guy Birken (48:38):
No, that's not a Nash.
I once wrote down all of thenot going to be able to find it
wrote down all of the poetry inthe film there's.
There's another poem that hesays during the tunnel scene,
when they're in the boat.
Wonka says it.
Yeah, wonka says it, with oneexception.
(49:00):
All the poetry comes from.
Tracie Guy-Decker (49:01):
Wonka.
Emily Guy Birken (49:02):
Yeah, the one exception is when Charlie is
outside the gates of the factorythere's like a tin man, like a
guy with tin shears and stufflike that comes by and recites a
poem in a way that feels likemenacing to Charlie and he runs
away.
But other than that it's allWonka, which again adds a
different flavor to who Wonka isand that just Wilder nailed it.
(49:27):
He nailed that, that thedelivery and the just charming
menace and sweet pathos.
Tracie Guy-Decker (49:36):
Well, we've been talking actually for a
while, so maybe I can see if Ican reflect back to you some of
the some of the analysis thatyou brought.
So, though, you will alwayslove Jane Wilder's performance
in this really magical movie,there's some kind of ugly
underbelly stuff here.
So I heard about sort of animperialist kind of colonialist
(50:02):
kind of white supremacy, whitesaviorism vis-a-vis the
Oompa-Loompas.
I heard a very pro capitalistand like pro unregulated
capitalist sentiment that putscapital and property, and even
intellectual property, above theneeds of human beings.
(50:23):
I heard about some unpleasantjudgment about kids in
particular, around bodies, bodyshaming and fat shaming around,
especially a girl in Veruca,salt, wanting things and being
unashamed about wanting thosethings and saying it out loud.
(50:46):
And I think it's significantthat this is a girl.
You pointed out and we talkedabout the fact that if, if
Veruca had been a boy, if it hadbeen Victor or something, we
would have received himdifferently.
Still a brat, but not, as he'sgoing places yeah, going to take
(51:07):
over his father's factory.
That ambition is going to servehim well, we might have said as
opposed to having him be deemeda bad egg and sent to the trash.
And then Dahl's weird bugabooabout gum chewing and TV viewing
as judgmental.
Oh, we also spent some timetalking about Dahl and his kind
(51:28):
of early 20th century Britishism, which then brings with it,
unfortunately, anti-semitism and, in his case, in his case in
his case, and very muchhierarchical thinking and the
idea of a meritocracy which isset up structurally to ensure
that people like Mr Dahl havemerit.
Emily Guy Birken (51:52):
And that's why Charlie is the successor is
because he is a diamond in therough.
He is like Wonka and Dahl.
He just happened to be born topoor parents and we'll fix that.
Tracie Guy-Decker (52:08):
He doesn't deserve poverty, unlike those
other people those other poorpeople who do deserve it.
Yeah, you also pointed out, interms of the on the positives
column, you pointed out some ofthe really lovely
cinematographic choices, suchthat the audience can be on the
edge of our seat watching achild unwrap a chocolate bar,
(52:31):
which is remarkable.
There's a lot of magic in thisfilm and in particular, gene
Wilder's performance, which hasa combination of magic and
menace and pathos.
What did I?
Emily Guy Birken (52:43):
forget.
I don't think there's anythingelse in there.
The one thing that I do kind ofwant to underline is why it
disturbs me so much thatCharlie's respect for Wonka's
property is a problem.
And it's because of thereactions that I saw from
(53:06):
friends of mine who have neverhad to go without in their lives
in the wake of the uprisingsafter George Floyd's murder,
when there were gas stations andCVSs and stuff like that that
were destroyed during thoseuprisings.
And the response I would hearfrom these friends is like I
(53:29):
totally understand why peopleare upset, but don't destroy
other people's things.
And on the one hand I was likewell, it's not necessarily the
protesters who are doing that.
A, b, that's why God inventedinsurance.
When you are comparing the deaththe extrajudicial and
(53:53):
extraordinarily painful andupsetting, horrifying death of a
person and the destruction ofproperty, how can you compare
them?
How can you say like oh, Iunderstand why you're upset, but
don't go breaking windows LikeI don't know.
Broken windows seemsappropriate and an appropriate
level of upset to me, and that'swhy I kind of want to underline
(54:15):
and that's part of the reasonwhy it was such a revelation to
me to be like oh, my God,charlie's not doing the right
thing right here because he isputting property above the lives
of his family.
And we so often imbibe thatmessage in so much of our media,
including this beloved gem ofour childhood, that we don't
(54:37):
even think about it.
We don't even think about, like, what is this compared to
people's lives, so that we'reable to pare it back, the idea
like, well, yeah, it'sunderstandable, they're upset,
but you know why are youthrowing chairs through windows,
like because it's that level ofupset?
This is not.
I am peeved.
Tracie Guy-Decker (54:57):
Yeah, I mean also like if people don't
respond to your inside voice,you got to use your outside
voice.
Yes, yeah, yes.
Emily Guy Birken (55:05):
So and I remember talking to these
friends and kind of like helpingthem get around that corner and
like, oh okay, yeah, oh okay, Iget it because they just never
had.
And they never had because ofmessages like this, which make
it clear that the property ofwealthy people is paramount.
Tracie Guy-Decker (55:26):
Yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (55:27):
And we must respect it.
Tracie Guy-Decker (55:29):
Yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (55:33):
Childhood ruining.
Tracie Guy-Decker (55:36):
I feel like that could actually be the
subtitle of this show.
Emily Guy Birken (55:39):
Yes, deep thoughts about stupid shit will
ruin your childhood.
Tracie Guy-Decker (55:44):
Tracy and Emily ruin your childhood, yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (55:46):
Ruinning childhood since 2023.
But again, there is.
There is much to love in thisfilm, and that's I don't ever
want to be like, so don't watchit, right?
That's not.
That's not what we're saying.
We're saying when you watch it,recognize what you're, what
you're being told.
Tracie Guy-Decker (56:05):
Well, I think that the thing is to like.
Those lessons are in your headwhether you're examining them or
not, so let's examine them sothat we can respond to them
instead of reacting with them.
Emily Guy Birken (56:15):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Tracie Guy-Decker (56:17):
So next time, next time.
Emily Guy Birken (56:19):
I think you're going next time.
Tracie Guy-Decker (56:21):
Yes, next time I am going to share my deep
thoughts about Indiana Jonesand the Raiders of the Lost Ark.
I have a feeling you're goingto ruin my childhood.
It's entirely possible.
I'm really looking like, I'mreally looking forward to this
one.
I don't think that I've watchedit again since I, you know, did
(56:41):
my undergraduate and graduatework in religion, so that piece
of it I'm kind of excited about.
It's like a minor piece of it.
Emily Guy Birken (56:51):
But there I do know that there was a brief
time where you and I were doingTorah study together and we got
to the section describing theArk of the Covenant.
I'm like, oh my God, they did areally good job.
Tracie Guy-Decker (57:04):
Hey you, yeah you.
You're a deep thinker, I cantell.
Let's make it official.
Head on over to our website,guygirlsmediacom, and make sure
you don't miss a single deepthought.
You can get me and Emily inyour inbox every week.
What are you waiting for?
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
(57:27):
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember, popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening
to Deep Thoughts about StupidShit, because pop culture is
still culture, and shouldn't youknow what's in your head?
On today's episode, I will bediscussing the 1971 classic
Willy Wonka and the ChocolateFactory with my sister, tracy
Guy Decker, and with you.
Let's dive in.
Tracie Guy-Decker (00:21):
Have you ever had something you love
dismissed because it's just popculture, what others might deem
stupid shit?
You know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about, and so do we.
So come over, think with us aswe delve into our deep thoughts
about Stupid Shit.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
(00:42):
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Emily Guy Birken (00:58):
So Trace, this is a shared movie from our
childhood.
It actually came out beforeeither of us were born and was
already a classic in the 80s bythe time we were watching it.
But can you tell me what youremember about this version of
(01:19):
the story, because there's beenmultiple ones, and this is the
classic with Gene Wilder, therewas the remake with Johnny Depp
that really kind of missed themark, and now there is a new
prequel out with TimothyChalamet.
So we want to go back to thebasics, back to the original.
So tell me about yourexperience with this movie.
Tracie Guy-Decker (01:42):
Yeah, it, definitely.
This is one of those likebuilding blocks of my childhood,
our childhood for sure.
I have very distinct memoriesof watching it at Grandma's
house, grandma Betta's house,mm-hmm, I think the things that
come up first for me is themusic, actually, with Gene
Wilder singing about pureimagination, with the sort of
scary one when they're on theboat, the scary song.
(02:05):
Those are some of the thingsthat come up first, and then
immediately actually from TedLasso, which I don't think you
watched yet.
You should watch it, you'llenjoy it.
But from Ted Lasso there's likea brief interaction about this
story where one of thecharacters, leslie, says to
Rebecca something like, oh, andall those children died in that
(02:27):
factory.
And Rebecca is like, no, that'snot what happened.
And Leslie like Rebecca I'msorry, those children are dead
and like something about likeLeslie is a man and he's just
like very earnest and like sweetand something about his
delivery.
I was like, oh, my God, he'sright, those children are dead,
(02:47):
and like it's just totally likecolored my thinking about it.
So there's I'm sure there'slots more.
There's lots of like momentsthat I remember, as like the
snapshots of them that kind ofbubble up as memories.
But I don't need to get intothose.
I'm sure that some of them willcome up and I know there's a
(03:07):
lot there.
Like, roald Dahl has becomesort of a controversial figure.
He's the guy who wrote the bookin the first place for various
good reasons that I expectyou'll get into.
And yeah, there's some lesssavory things.
I have a feeling hidingunderneath the fun songs about
imagination and the Oopaloopasjudging us.
(03:29):
But yeah, tell me what's atstake.
Why are we talking aboutCharlie and the Chocolate
Factory today?
Emily Guy Birken (03:38):
So I loved the film as a kid, really really
loved it.
I'm sure I know I saw the filmbefore I read the book, but
Charlie and the ChocolateFactory became one of the books
that I read over and over, andover and over again.
It's one of the early ones Ican remember just always wanting
to pick up and reread, whichhas become a habit of mine over
(04:02):
a lifetime.
I did that also with James andthe Giant Peach, but I think I
like Charlie and the ChocolateFactory even a little bit more,
so for me there's like apersonal connection to this
story.
It also I got to be the eightyear old going, oh, the book's
better, which I appreciate it,which is actually one of the
reasons why, when the 2005 TimBurton film with Johnny Depp
(04:25):
came out, I was not immediatelyhorrified because I was just
like, oh, ok, well, it'll becloser to the actual book
Because there are quite a fewchanges.
Some of them had to do with thefact that it's not an easy
story to film with 1971technology, and then some of it
(04:45):
just had to do with the changesthat were made in the process.
But so, like originally, I wasjust like, yeah, I'm excited to
see the Tim Burton versionbecause you know I might be
closer to the book and it wasbut I'm not a fan of that
version.
In any case, it was animportant part of my literary
DNA, my childhood.
(05:07):
I recently rewatched it with mykids.
They both loved it, and what isamazing to me is how well this
movie is made.
So the scene when Charlie findsthe golden ticket, it is a huge
thing.
(05:27):
It is a child unwrapping acandy bar, and the directorial
choices, the camera choices, theacting choices they asked Peter
Ostrom to do.
The boy played Charlie, themusic, all of that.
They do such a good job thatyou are on the edge of your seat
(05:49):
watching a little boy unwrap acandy bar.
And so that is part of thereason why this film has
remained beloved for over 50years now and why, even very
close to the end of his life,jean Wilder was still getting
like it's Willy Wonka frompeople as he went out and about.
(06:11):
So like.
The film is a masterpiece andit is one that I am very glad to
introduce my kids to.
In terms of how to tell a story,what choices can be made to
raise stakes for something,particularly when there are
things that don't make muchsense if you think about them
(06:34):
logically, and my love for JeanWilder comes originally from
this film.
There are many others that Ilove him in, but this was how I
was first introduced to him, andhe is amazing, magnetic,
magical, mysterious, terrifyingall of those things.
And there is a core ofsweetness under it all, even
(06:57):
under the terrifying aspects.
So this is an important movie.
You know, it's an importantmovie for me, it's an important
movie for our culture, but thereare some really ugly undersides
to this and I think that we cantrace them directly to Roald
Dahl and some of them, likethere's some, some dark
(07:19):
undercurrents that are just, Ithink, good storytelling.
You know, the fact that WillyWonka is not entirely
trustworthy as a character isnot necessarily a bad thing
about a children's movie.
The fact that terrible thingshappen to children is not
necessarily a bad thing in achildren's movie.
But there are other aspects ofthe story that I think deserve
(07:44):
our scrutiny and that we shouldreally really be cautious about
what that lesson is, that we'retaking in, that we're imbibing
and we're teaching our childrenwithout looking at it closer.
Tracie Guy-Decker (07:57):
All right, let's catch everybody up.
I mean, it's an over 15 yearold movie.
As you say, it's important tothe culture, so I think a lot of
our listeners have probablyseen it.
But let's just do the quick,like what happened in this movie
.
Emily Guy Birken (08:09):
Yeah, quick, quick thumbnail.
So this movie is about CharlieBucket.
They changed it to Willy Wonkaand the chocolate factory, even
though the book was calledCharlie and the chocolate
factory.
So Charlie lives in the sametown as the Wonka chocolate
factory, which has been closedto factory workers for some
(08:31):
period of time, like 15, 20years since, longer than
Charlie's been alive and he'sabout 10.
But it still is producingchocolate and nobody knows how.
Charlie is extremely poor.
He lives with his mother andhis four grandparents, Grandpa
Joe, oh yeah, all in the samebed.
Tracie Guy-Decker (08:48):
All in the same bed, grandpa, joe, grandma.
Emily Guy Birken (08:50):
Josephine, grandpa George and Grandma
Georgina.
Tracie Guy-Decker (08:53):
Yeah, yeah, much a narcissistic grandparents
Married people with their samename.
Yeah, okay, yes.
Emily Guy Birken (09:02):
So he lives with them.
We don't know where in the bookhis father is there as well,
but in the film presumably he'sdead because his parents are
still living with them.
His mother works as a in alaundry or something like that,
and Charlie has a paper route tobring some money in, because
(09:23):
otherwise all they eat iscabbage soup.
There is a major announcementthat Wonka will be opening up
the factory for five luckyindividuals who find a golden
ticket in one of the candy bars,and so first half of the movie
is basically about the firstfour people who find tickets.
There is Augustus Gloop, who isa child in Germany who it is
(09:47):
made clear that he is kind of aglutton, as are his parents.
Then there is Veruca Salt, whois the British daughter of a man
who has a nut factory.
He has, like this hugeproduction line of people who
shell peanuts for him, and heputs the production line at work
to open candy bars to find thegolden ticket for Veruca.
(10:08):
There is Violet Beauregard, whois actually an American gum
chewer, but she puts the gumaside for a little while until
she can find a golden ticket.
She is from Montana.
Then there's Mike TV who, if Iremember correctly, is from
Arizona, who is a kid who lovestelevision.
His mom actually says he'snever eaten a meal at the dining
(10:30):
room table because he alwayseats it in front of the TV.
People are led to believe thatthe fifth ticket has been found.
Charlie happens to find moneyin the street.
He buys a chocolate bar forhimself with the money and he's
starving because of how littlehe gets to eat.
He just swallows it down.
He's about to take the rest ofthe money because he found a
dollar the other 90 cents to gohome to give to his family.
(10:53):
He decides you know what?
No, I'm going to get achocolate bar for Grandpa Joe.
He gets a chocolate bar andlearns as he's walking home that
there is one ticket left.
He opens his candy and finds itthere.
On his way home he is stoppedby Slugworth, who was the main
rival to Willy Wonka, who offershim money beyond his wildest
(11:17):
dreams and security for hisfamily if he can give him an
everlasting gobstopper from outof the Wonka factory, despite
the fact that he has been in bedfor 20 years.
Grandpa Joe, as soon as he has areason to get up, gets up and
dances around because we've gota golden ticket.
He does stumble a little.
He does stumble a little.
They end up on the factory tourwhich is the very next day we
(11:42):
meet.
When we meet Willy Wonka, hecomes out of the factory on a
cane and is like kind ofstumbling his way to the front
gate.
His cane at one point stops,gets stuck in the cobblestones.
He kind of stumbles a littlebit and then does a forward flip
and jumps up.
(12:03):
Apparently Gene Wilder insistedon that.
He wanted it to be clear fromthe very beginning that you can
never know if you can trustanything from this character.
The reactions of the childrenwere genuine because they did
not know how he was going toenter.
They come in and they startseeing the crazy, weird, wild
stuff in the factory, startingwith the main chocolate floor,
(12:27):
which is actually a river ofchocolate through a candy meadow
.
We start to lose the childrenone by one.
First is Augustus Glup, who isdrinking the chocolate out of
the river, and he gets suckedinto the river and then up
through a tube into themarshmallow room, I think.
Next is Violet Beauregard whotries a gum that Willy Wonka has
(12:50):
made that creates a full meal.
It works until she gets theblueberry pie when she turns
into a blueberry.
Then is Ruka Salt, who wantsone of the geese that lays
golden eggs.
She jumps on top of the scalethat determines if it's a good
egg or a bad egg, and isdetermined to be a bad egg, she
(13:11):
gets shoved into the garbagechute.
Miketv decides to go throughthe TV.
They use a huge chocolate barthat they then send through the
TV that you can reach into theTV and take out.
Mike wants to do that too, sohe goes from being a normal kid
to being six inches high.
Meanwhile Wonka's workers, whoare oompa-loompas, which is a
(13:33):
fake people, who are only aboutknee high, according to the book
sing about what the childrenhave done wrong and otherwise
don't really interact with thekids.
By the end of the tour it's justCharlie.
In that time there was onepoint where his grandfather
convinced him to try a fizzylifting drink, even though they
were told not to.
(13:53):
Charlie says well, can I havethe lifetime supply of chocolate
now?
Wonka says you get nothingbecause you broke the rules.
Grandpa Joe says we're leavingand if Slugworth wants his
everlasting gobstopper, he'sgoing to get it.
Charlie returns it to Mr Wonka,who puts his hand over it and
(14:14):
says so shines a bright deed ina weary world, and he then says
you've won.
You've won everything, charlie.
And he reveals that this entirestunt was to find an heir.
He wanted a child to take overfor him because he wants to keep
making chocolate in the sameway, with the same magical way,
(14:36):
and an adult would have theirown opinions on things.
So he wants a child who he canteach, and the film ends with
him going in the great classelevator which goes up through
the ceiling of the factory andfloats over the over the city,
and that is the end of the film.
Yeah that's a lot, so let mestart with Roald Dahl, who was a
hell of a writer.
(14:57):
It's interesting that he'sknown for his children's stories
, so Matilda, charlie theChocolate Factory, the BFG,
james and the Giant Peach,charlie and the Great Class,
which was the sequel to Charlieand the Chocolate Factory.
I'm sure I'm forgetting some,because he did not like children
.
Tracie Guy-Decker (15:15):
He didn't.
Emily Guy Birken (15:16):
And he made it from Charlie.
Yeah, I have read some of hisshort stories that were intended
for adults that have verysimilar kind of bloodthirstiness
with endicoding.
So for instance, there's a.
One of his most famous shortstories is about a woman who
(15:36):
murders her husband with afrozen leg of lamb.
She's just just done done withhim, and so she clubs him over
the head with a frozen leg oflamb, then she puts it in the
oven and serves it to the policeofficers who come to
investigate the murder.
So similar kind of likeplayfulness and menace in there.
(15:59):
There's quite a bit of thatkind of like irony and playful
menace.
So I have immense respect forhis abilities.
I also have immense respect.
He lost one of his children toI can't remember if it was the
measles, something that there isnow a vaccine for and there was
(16:19):
not when she died and he wasvery vocal about the fact that
her life would have been savedby these vaccines, because
vaccine denial is something thathas happened every time we've
come up with vaccines throughouthistory.
So I have a great deal ofrespect for that.
Dahl, however, would not likeme because he was an anti-semite
(16:43):
.
He actually said, yeah, hitlermay have been a stinker, but he
kind of had a point about theJews.
Tracie Guy-Decker (16:52):
Whoa.
Emily Guy Birken (16:54):
And that's the word stinker Like.
Tracie Guy-Decker (16:58):
Yeah, that's the word that I want to use for
the man responsible for 11million deaths.
So ew Was he American.
Emily Guy Birken (17:09):
No, he was British, very British.
Yes, he knew Ian Fleming Like Ithink they served together in
the war.
The guy who wrote James Bondyeah.
Tracie Guy-Decker (17:19):
So, like Willy Wonka and James Bond, Like
we share a cinematic universe.
Yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (17:26):
And I think a lot of the negativity that I see
, the things that I find verydistasteful about Willy Wonka
and the books that I imbibed andloved as a child, stem from
Roald Dahl's early 20th centuryBritishness.
Tracie Guy-Decker (17:47):
In a lot of ways.
Emily Guy Birken (17:49):
He was very much an imperialist, whether or
not he described himself thatway.
So let's talk about theOompa-Lompas.
Tracie Guy-Decker (17:57):
Yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (17:58):
So the Oompa-Lompas are Willy Wonka's
workers who he rescued fromLoompa land where they were
menaced by horrible creatureslike verminous knids and wang
doodles.
And in the addition that I read, there were illustrations of
(18:20):
the Oompa-Lompas and they wereclearly shown to have brown skin
and were intended to look likeAfricans or maybe South Asians
South Asians, yes.
So when they made the 1971 film, it was already like oh, we
(18:41):
can't do that.
And I believe there were othereditions where even Roald Dahl
was like maybe we should changethe illustrations.
But they gave them the orangeskin and green hair to make it
clear that they are not humans.
Tracie Guy-Decker (18:54):
Right.
Emily Guy Birken (18:55):
But the way that Wonka talks about them is
he doesn't have to pay thembecause all they want is
chocolate or cocoa beans Cocoabeans, yeah yeah, which kind of
sounds like oh yeah, we paid forthe Isle of Manhattan with
beads.
You know, this is like that'sreally uncomfortable.
(19:16):
And there is this like whitesaviorism of like Willy Wonka
saved them from this horribleplace and brought them to a
factory where they don't see thelight of day.
Tracie Guy-Decker (19:29):
Right when they work for no pay.
Work for no pay or pay in food?
Emily Guy Birken (19:35):
Yeah, and where?
Considering the fact that Wonkaknows he's not going to live
forever or he chooses somerandom kid to be his successor,
rather, than who is white,rather than one of the Oompa
Loompas who have been workingfor him for years and know the
(19:55):
entire process already, and ouradults, and can teach others,
and I mean, and should berewarded for their work as well.
So, yikes, that's worrisome.
Tracie Guy-Decker (20:09):
Even the way that, even within the Gene
Wilder movie, to the way thatthe Oompa Loompas interact with
Wonka right, like he has thatweird little flute that he plays
, that they then show up, andthen there's it's very, it's
very differential.
The hierarchy is very, veryclear.
Emily Guy Birken (20:30):
Yes, and so the fact that you know all five
of the children who find thegolden tickets.
Now, when I was a kid, Iremember being like why is it
all kids who found goldentickets?
You know that just doesn't makesense to me Like grownups, like
Candy 2.
As I got older, I was like, whyare all five of them white and
(20:50):
speak English, with theexception of Augustus Gloop?
I mean, he does speak English,but he's got a German accent.
You know, like what's going onhere.
And then the fact that the onethat Willy Wonka chooses is the
blonde, blue eyed kid.
No, I don't remember howCharlie was described in the
book.
So that's casting decision.
(21:13):
Peter Ostrom did an amazing joband one of the things that I
most appreciate about PeterOstrom is that he refused to
sign a deal to make multiplemovies.
He made the one and then he wasdone and he is a large animal
vet now.
Wow, yeah, I don't know how hecame to that decision.
Don't know if that was hisparents or if he just was a very
(21:38):
, very preternaturally wiseyoung kid who was like, yeah,
this was fun, but I don't needto do this anymore.
But yeah, and I'm reminded of Idon't know if you remember this
, but I know Dad was horrifiedby, like the way child actors
are exploited.
But you need children in movies, like you can't make movies
(22:01):
without child actors, at leastsometimes.
And he's like they should onlybe allowed to make one film and
then that's it.
What's an option of coming backwhen they're 18.
Yeah, I remember him sayingthat.
Tracie Guy-Decker (22:11):
I think actually Drew Barrymore is the
one that when I that I rememberhim saying that about, I think
he saw us, and Drew Barrymorebecause she's about my age, yeah
, yeah, and so, like I thinkthat's the one that I remember
the most and so like I feel likePeter Ostrom is like the
template for that.
Emily Guy Birken (22:29):
So, in any case, the racism, colonialism,
imperialism, like whitesaviorism, just inherent in the
idea of Willy Wonka findingthese people telling them oh,
your homeland is awful, Comewith me and be my slaves,
(22:50):
basically yeah.
Yeah, kind of horrific.
And you cannot remove the OompaLoompas from the story of Willy
Wonka, like that is an integralpart of it and that's something
to kind of fix it in theTimothy Chalamet version.
I haven't seen it yet, but I'veread some articles about it.
I'm not super interested in itas a story but in terms of
(23:12):
imagery it looks gorgeous Likethat that I want to see.
But the explanation they giveis that like the Hugh Grant as
Anupalumpa would steal people'schocolate and so like part of
what the Timothy Chalamet'sWonka is doing is like oh, ok,
I'll give it to you so you don'thave to steal it and you know
if you work for me.
(23:32):
I don't know if that makes itbetter.
Is he the only?
I think he's the only one inthis, but I'm not sure I mean.
Tracie Guy-Decker (23:41):
I think a singular actually does make it
better.
Yeah, I'm not saying it makesit OK, I haven't seen it yet but
there's a does feel like a bigdifference between, like, taking
an entire people from theirhomeland, rescuing them with air
quotes in order to serve you inyour factory, versus one
individual.
That does feel different.
Emily Guy Birken (24:01):
Yeah, yeah.
So there's, that's big, big,it's a big ugly.
Tracie Guy-Decker (24:09):
Yeah, that's a mark in the hole.
That's a structurally ugly Like.
That's a piece of uglystructure in the storytelling.
It's not like a yeah, it's notjust a layer.
Emily Guy Birken (24:19):
that you could sort of wipe away.
So that gets to another aspectof this that I definitely did
not catch as a kid, and that ishow weirdly pro capitalist the
story is and pro ruling class.
(24:40):
So we find out when Charlierefuses to sell the everlasting
gobstopper that slug worth isn'tactually slug worth.
He's someone who his name is MrWilkins and he works for for
Wonka and this part I don'tbelieve was in the book, I
believe this was added for thefilm when Charlie returns the
(25:01):
everlasting gobstopper and islike I'm not going to sell your
secrets, that shows how pure ofheart Charlie is.
The thing is based on Charlie'sunderstanding of what's
happening.
That is objectively the wrongthing to do.
His family lives in poverty, heis constantly starving, his
(25:29):
grandparents share a single bed,his mother is works
backbreaking labor and this onepiece of candy from a man who
has been cruel to him couldensure that the security of his
family for life.
And once I saw it that way, Icouldn't like.
(25:52):
That blew my mind because youknow I was, you know, gold star
achieving rule follower as a kid.
And so of course Charlie doesthe right thing.
Of course he does the rightthing of giving that back.
Tracie Guy-Decker (26:06):
Well, that's the message of the movie as well
.
Yes, I mean that is absolutely.
He gets rewarded for it.
Absolutely.
That is the message we aregiven.
Is that this?
Emily Guy Birken (26:14):
is the right thing to do.
Tracie Guy-Decker (26:15):
But you're right he's.
He is respecting theintellectual property of a cruel
man over the needs of his ownfamily.
Yes, and it's the intellectualproperty as well.
He's not actually like he's notstealing from Wonka, right?
Emily Guy Birken (26:32):
Exactly.
Tracie Guy-Decker (26:33):
He's stealing intellectual property, but it's
not as though he is keepingWonka.
He's not even keeping Wonkafrom making money in the future,
right?
So he's not even stealing fromWonka's future, yeah, yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (26:49):
And boy, that's a mess.
Now it's a good thing thatCharlie did return it, because
Slughworth wasn't real and theywouldn't have had the security.
But he didn't know that, justas he didn't know that, like at
the end of the tour, he wasn'tgoing to get what he was
promised.
The other aspect of it is, bychoosing a successor the way
(27:12):
that he does, wonka is hoardinggenerational wealth instead of
sharing it with his workers, andhe is ensuring that there is no
change or innovation oranything like.
He is going to mold Charlie inhis own image, which is deeply
disturbing.
Tracie Guy-Decker (27:32):
Yeah, there's also in terms of the pro
capitalism message, like byshuttering the factory to
workers, Wonka has decimatedthis town Right and as viewers
we're meant to sympathize withhim for that.
We're meant to think he hasmade the right choice by
enslaving these obliquas so thathe doesn't have to pay the
(27:57):
folks who live around thefactory.
Emily Guy Birken (28:00):
Well, the reason why he shuttered the
factory was because Slughworthand other candy makers were
sending in spies as workers.
So it wasn't that he didn'twant to pay the workers,
necessarily.
No, I understand.
Tracie Guy-Decker (28:16):
I understand, but nevertheless, that is the
impact, regardless of theintention.
And, as I said, like so yourcompetitor has a similar product
.
Yeah, that's the way marketswork.
Emily Guy Birken (28:33):
That's also like, that's kind of the like,
the pro deregulated capitalism,it's pro monopoly really is what
it is.
Tracie Guy-Decker (28:41):
That's what it is.
It's pro monopoly becauseultimately that is how markets
work If you have a product thathas a market share and
competitors can recreate it,even approximate it.
That's how capitalism works.
The demand somebody is going tosupply, mm, hmm, mm hmm.
Emily Guy Birken (29:03):
Well, and it's .
It always struck me as reallyweird that the everlasting
gobstopper was the thing thatSlughworth wanted, because that
is not going to be a moneymaker.
It's the one that it's forchildren.
Very little pocket moneybecause it lasts forever.
None of that makes sense.
That's the wrong one.
Yeah, yeah, I'm like.
(29:23):
You're not going to buy morethan one of those, right?
I?
Tracie Guy-Decker (29:26):
mean the opposite of plan obsolescence
yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (29:30):
And that that I really feel like is so much of
that Like there are aspectsthat were not necessarily in the
book, but so much of it is, Ithink, representative of Roald
Dahl.
He was a product of his time.
I think he really did believein hierarchies of people and
(29:50):
believed that it's a meritocracy, while at the same time setting
up rules to make sure that hegot all the merit.
Tracie Guy-Decker (29:59):
Yeah, let's talk about that, because there's
a lot of judgment on these four, the four other kids that we
see.
So let's let's talk about thathierarchy of people and judgment
and meritocracy and like whatis meritous and what is not yeah
.
Emily Guy Birken (30:14):
Yeah, so I want to start with Ruka salt,
because I love her.
She is an icon I want the wholeworld yeah.
That's, and it's funny because Idon't remember how it came up,
but I was talking to my spouseabout the fact that I am
reevaluating Ruka salt now as anadult, and he's like, oh really
(30:36):
, and I'm like that, that, rightthere, that's exactly why I'm
doing it, because it was aspoiled little girl, not a
spoiled little boy.
And there is the inherentmisogyny within that, like, how
dare a girl or a female codedperson want things?
(30:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
And yes, she is a brat is thebest way to describe it.
It is very clear that herparents have never said no to
her, so she has learned thatthis is what one does.
This is how, like, she hasadapted to the world she lives
in.
But you also see, when shesings that song about I want it.
(31:20):
Now there's a point where shekind of like goes into this
frenzy and then she kind of likesmooths her dress and calms
down, smooths her hair, and sothere is also this like idea of
performance.
Same thing when she first shewants to be the first one in the
gates and she like performsbeing a sweet child because
she's been taught that's whatshe's supposed to be.
(31:43):
So I'm not saying that I haveany particular affection or
affinity for kids who don't, whocan't handle being told no, but
the fact that she is so welladapted to this world that she
has been given there's somethingjust like iconic about it, and
(32:08):
the fact that sheunapologetically wants what she
wants when she wants it, whenwomen are taught not to do that
makes me kind of love her.
Tracie Guy-Decker (32:19):
I'm thinking about the fact that in men it's
men and boys it's sort ofreceived as ambition and in
women it's received asentitlement.
Yes, yeah, and I mean I feellike that's the case regardless,
like that, that sort of like Idon't know why I don't quite
like her.
You know about ambitious women.
(32:40):
In fact, I think I was recentlyreading Glennon Doyle in
Untamed.
She talks about that, about thefact that and that she talks
about investigating in herselfwhen she reacts badly to to
other women.
Yeah, I think that's exactly it.
And men it's.
It's received as ambition andwe like it.
And we celebrate it.
(33:01):
Yes.
Or like he's driven, he's goaloriented, whereas women are seen
as entitled and overreaching.
Emily Guy Birken (33:12):
And the way that her father is portrayed.
He is portrayed as like thisharried hen, pecked like
Massaculated.
Partial man yeah, he'semasculated by her wants.
Yeah, when all he had to do wassay no, so I think that's the
case.
So I find I find her portrayalvery, very interesting.
(33:32):
I think it's is very muchreflection on Roald Dahl, who I
believe was was a misogynist.
I mean, I don't think he wentout, I was like I hate women but
I really do.
The way that he treated womenin his stories, even when he
subverted, so like the story Iwas telling you about with the
leg of lamb there, that was asubversion because no one
(33:54):
believed this sweet woman whowas feeding all the police
officers could do anything likeor so awful yeah.
He was subverting it.
But there's still, like, thissense of like.
You know well, you know there'ssomething wrong with this woman
because she couldn't do that,yeah, so there's that.
And then there's the the, theway that women and girls have
(34:15):
always been treated in 50 yearsago, what was just a given in in
making a film.
And in fact she gets one of theleast gruesome ends of the four
children.
She just falls into a trash,shoot Now they.
The furnace is fired everyother day, so there's the
possibility she's going to beburnt to a crisp Right and her
father jumps in right after her.
(34:37):
That is something I also neverreally appreciated as a kid.
Like he doesn't say goodriddance to bad rubbish.
He's like Varouka, honey, I'mcoming.
He loves his daughter.
He's really bad at loving her.
He thinks that loving her isgiving her whatever she wants,
and many people have that makethat mistake.
(34:57):
And he happens to be richenough that he can.
And the you see one scene withher mother where her mother is
saying like a happy child brings, brings joy to a home, or
something like that.
It's clear they're, they're,they're not a bad family.
Tracie Guy-Decker (35:13):
They're doing their best.
Emily Guy Birken (35:15):
They're doing their best.
They just don't have a goodsense of how to do it, which
then brings up would Charlie bea good person if you weren't
poor?
Right Like is is the only thingthat makes him good the fact
that he has nothing which is,which is another weird sort of
like pro capitalist.
(35:36):
Well, and fetishization of,like the worthy poor, yeah, yeah
, yeah.
So the other three kids.
Tracie Guy-Decker (35:44):
So Augustus Gloop that yeah, let's, let's
talk about poor Augustus.
Emily Guy Birken (35:49):
Yeah, the fat, and child doll was a fat child.
She was a small and cutehousewife.
It was called the Jack and theJack Jamer.
In James and the Giant Peachthere were two awful aunts James
is too awful, aunt Spiker andAunt Sponge.
On Spiker was like a skinny andon Sponge was fat, and they
(36:13):
both were bad women and thetheir shapes represented the
ways in which they were bad.
Aunt Spiker was too sharp, yeah, and wanted everything for
herself.
So it is not at all surprisingthat Roald Dahl wrote Augustus
Gloop as a glutton, as someonewho, despite the fact that there
(36:36):
is candy everywhere, the eyecan see that he can eat anything
he wants, but goes for thechocolate in the river which
he's not allowed to have.
You also see when the newsmedia is interviewing the Gloop
family, mr Gloop, they're eatingand they put a microphone into
(36:58):
Mr Gloop's face to say, like,what do you think about this?
And he eats the cover of themicrophone because ha ha ha,
isn't it funny when fat peopleeat?
And it kind of reinforces theidea that excess adipose tissue
comes from overeating and nothaving control of yourself.
Tracie Guy-Decker (37:19):
Yeah, I mean that's what the Oompa Loopa sing
about, yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (37:23):
Yeah, so you know again, completely
understandable why, where thatcomes from, particularly from a
writer who was writing in theearly mid 20th century and a
movie that comes out in 1971.
But poor Augustus did notdeserve that.
Nor did Mrs Gloop, right, she'smade fun of.
(37:45):
When she's like, oh my god,he's gonna be made into fudge,
and Wonka goes like, oh no, ofcourse that would never happen.
That goes to the MarshmallowRoom, right?
So, like well, how dare you beconcerned about your child who
just got sucked up into a tube?
Tracie Guy-Decker (38:01):
Yeah, so we still haven't spoken about
Violet and Mike TV.
Emily Guy Birken (38:06):
Yes, and in both cases those to me seem to
be Roald Dahl's specificbugaboos and the way that they
made it in the film was thatthey're both know-it-alls
Because Roald Dahl thought gumchewing was disgusting.
That's that that was his moraljudgment.
(38:27):
Like chewing gum is gross.
And in fact they, in the 2005update they made it that Violet
Beauregard was competitive.
She was a competitive gumchewer and it was about the like
wanting the gold star.
Being competitive is what wasbeing lampooned rather than the
gum chewing, and there is a bitof like the know-it-all aspect
(38:49):
of it.
There was the American-ness ofMr Beauregard, who was a used
car dealer.
Right is another aspect of it,which I, frankly, I don't blame
Roald Dahl at all.
There are some Americanstereotypes that are I'm
perfectly happy to havelampooned, but just that the gum
(39:10):
chewing is as a moral failingis just weird.
Tracie Guy-Decker (39:14):
It's in particular since Wonko was
working on gum Like, her mistakewas not chewing gum, it was
chewing gum that wasn't out ofR&D yet.
Yes, yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (39:28):
And then it's basically the same thing happens
to Mike TV, who he is reallyexcited to get I don't know sent
through the television.
Tracie Guy-Decker (39:38):
Yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (39:38):
Beamed through the TV without any thought for
the consequences.
Tracie Guy-Decker (39:43):
Right, he also does it before, right
before it's out of R&D.
Emily Guy Birken (39:48):
Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah.
His is actually makes even lesssense because, like with Violet
, it's like oh, I know gum, I'mtrying this gum.
With this it's like okay, Ijust saw something I've never
seen happen before and a giantcandy bar became a normal size
candy bar.
So I want to do that why.
Tracie Guy-Decker (40:06):
Yeah, yeah.
My recollection too is that hesays he wants to do it again and
then and his mom is like youwon't be exist if you're already
like whatever sanctioned, yeah,and Wonko says he's going to
send him to the taffy room tohave him stretched out.
Mm-hmm.
Emily Guy Birken (40:22):
And that's actually so in the book and
again in the 2005 version.
They do show the four childrenleaving.
They do survive.
They do stretch mic out becauselittle boys are remarkably
rubbery, which kind of that fitswith.
Like my spouse and I joked whenthe kids were much younger that
(40:42):
, like you know, they don't havebones when they're little.
Yeah like they, they.
They insert the bones at somepoint during a well child visit,
while the parents doing powerpaperwork.
Yeah.
Tracie Guy-Decker (40:53):
Yeah, they are definitely more bouncy when
they're little.
Emily Guy Birken (40:56):
So, yeah, all, all, all four kids survive
according to the book, and youknow, of the four, like Ruka
Salt has the least terriblething happen to her, because
she's just covered in rash.
Yeah, but the the, thejudgments of children as being
left wanting and, you know,worthy of an entire song about
(41:18):
their moral failings.
Tracie Guy-Decker (41:20):
Well, and the families?
Right, Because I remember, likewe know, who's to blame the
mother.
Emily Guy Birken (41:27):
The mother and the father.
Yeah, yeah, to be fair.
And gosh, I wish I'd had timeto reread the book.
I'm curious if the adding themom and dad as being to blame is
new in 1971 compared to the thebook, because I wouldn't put it
(41:48):
past all to just be like, yep,these children are rotten
through and through.
So it's, it's a mixed bag.
I do want to say.
I want to talk a little bitabout Gene Wilder's performance
and the addition of poetry tothe script.
I love that.
Gene Wilder is Wonka that iswhat he is best known for like
(42:12):
and even as a very old man.
And actually one of the reasonswhy he kept his Alzheimer's a
secret and did not go out muchas he got closer to the end of
his life is he didn't want toruin the magic for children,
which just makes my heart clutch.
It's just, it's just lovely.
He apparently I found somethingthis morning as I was doing a
(42:34):
little research.
Someone asked him how he, howhe felt about working with the
kids and he said four of themare fantastic.
I want to want to throttle sowhat he brought to the character
, which is different from how heis written in the book.
In the book.
He's just a little bitdifferent In the book.
(42:55):
In the book he's kind of like amanic pixie dream capitalist.
He brings a gentleness and likethe core of sweetness, as well
as a more overt menace.
Not that that's dolls, wonkawasn't menacing, but he was a
(43:17):
little more like all over theplace.
He was kind of ADHD, whereasthis Wonka he's not distracted,
he knows what he's doing at alltimes and he does not suffer
fools and is.
You know?
There is something, there's anundercurrent of menace there.
Tracie Guy-Decker (43:38):
Yeah, there's this.
I my sense, like in my memory,is exactly what you're saying
about the calculating, becausethere's even there are the
moments where we see, like whenAugustus has his hands in the
river and he's like, no, don'tstop.
Like he says the words, but it's, it's clearly the message is is
(43:59):
clearly the opposite of whathe's saying there's also, I feel
I feel like there's a pathos toWilders Wonka, in that final
moment that you have described,where Charlie puts the gop
stopper on the desk and Wilderputs his hand over it, and
there's this pause and there'sthis shift from having, when he
(44:21):
was short and barking and likeyou did this and you broke the
contract and the whatever, andthen into the sweetness where,
taken as a whole, we see he washurt.
There was, there was pain inthe earlier cruelty.
That then has been addressed inCharlie's kindness, which is
(44:44):
what we're meant to think.
I mean, is it in fact kindness?
I don't know, but that is,that's the way Wilder was
playing it.
That is part of what made himso sympathetic.
Emily Guy Birken (44:55):
Yes, yes, yeah , that that the pathos, that's.
That's exactly it.
There's that you also believethe like.
You know, I know I'm not goingto be around forever.
There is that that, like I'vebuilt this wonderful world and I
realize I have no one to shareit with, is kind of what's in
there as well.
Tracie Guy-Decker (45:14):
Which then comes back around to like the,
the normalizing of theObaloomba's aren't people?
Yes, they're there, they're noone, mm.
Hmm, because he's alreadysharing it with him.
Emily Guy Birken (45:26):
Yes, I will never not love Let me say I will
always love Wilder'sperformance as Willy Wonka, and
in fact there have been timeswhere I have because it's on
Netflix or something you knowit's streaming somewhere where
I'll just fast forward to theparts with him in it, because he
is magical and part of that isthat magic is not all good,
(45:52):
magic is not all beneficial.
There there is like a price formagic and he is real clear
about that, and so you know,that's something that I just
find really captivating abouthis performance.
Yeah, and I don't think I meanJohnny Depp seemed to be
(46:15):
channeling Michael Jackson.
I think he actually said thatI'm like I, so it was just
deeply unsettling his portrayal.
And I have I don't know muchabout Timothy Chalamet, but like
you're not going to be JaneWilder, you're not going to be
able to have, because even when,when he played like young
(46:36):
Frankenstein and stuff like that, he managed to have that like
over the top Performance andpathos when he was bloom in
what's that called the producers.
There's pathos in thatridiculous performance, which is
one of the reasons why I triedto watch the the version with
Matthew Broderick in GeneWilder's role and I was like.
(46:56):
It just doesn't work for mebecause you're not bringing that
like that core of sadness inthere that needs to be there for
me to believe that my blueblankie, I really appreciate
that, considering role doll wasan anti-Semite, that Gene Wilder
(47:17):
, who was raised in the Jewishneighborhood a couple blocks
away from where I live right nowin Milwaukee, is synonymous
with dolls character forever.
Like that makes me very happy.
The other thing that I thinkthat the movie does so well that
is completely absent from thebook is the poetry.
(47:40):
There are a number of differentlines of poetry throughout the
film and it came about becauseoriginally doll was contracted
to write the film, the script.
He apparently just keptreferring people back to the
book.
Oh, for this section, look atthe book.
And so he has the sole writingcredit, even though someone else
really wrote it.
(48:00):
They had written the script andit felt like it was missing
something, and the person whowrote it who's I'll have to link
in the show notes because Ican't remember his name decided
like this needs more, and so headded like lines of poetry.
So the one that I can rememberalways off top of my head is
(48:21):
when someone asks about likebutter, rum butterscotch and he
says.
He says Candy is dandy, butliquor is quicker, which is that
very short poem by Ogden Nashwhich is on breaking the ice, is
the title of the poem Candy isdandy.
Tracie Guy-Decker (48:35):
I thought that was Dorothy Parker.
Emily Guy Birken (48:38):
No, that's not a Nash.
I once wrote down all of thenot going to be able to find it
wrote down all of the poetry inthe film there's.
There's another poem that hesays during the tunnel scene,
when they're in the boat.
Wonka says it.
Yeah, wonka says it, with oneexception.
(49:00):
All the poetry comes from.
Tracie Guy-Decker (49:01):
Wonka.
Emily Guy Birken (49:02):
Yeah, the one exception is when Charlie is
outside the gates of the factorythere's like a tin man, like a
guy with tin shears and stufflike that comes by and recites a
poem in a way that feels likemenacing to Charlie and he runs
away.
But other than that it's allWonka, which again adds a
different flavor to who Wonka isand that just Wilder nailed it.
(49:27):
He nailed that, that thedelivery and the just charming
menace and sweet pathos.
Tracie Guy-Decker (49:36):
Well, we've been talking actually for a
while, so maybe I can see if Ican reflect back to you some of
the some of the analysis thatyou brought.
So, though, you will alwayslove Jane Wilder's performance
in this really magical movie,there's some kind of ugly
underbelly stuff here.
So I heard about sort of animperialist kind of colonialist
(50:02):
kind of white supremacy, whitesaviorism vis-a-vis the
Oompa-Loompas.
I heard a very pro capitalistand like pro unregulated
capitalist sentiment that putscapital and property, and even
intellectual property, above theneeds of human beings.
(50:23):
I heard about some unpleasantjudgment about kids in
particular, around bodies, bodyshaming and fat shaming around,
especially a girl in Veruca,salt, wanting things and being
unashamed about wanting thosethings and saying it out loud.
(50:46):
And I think it's significantthat this is a girl.
You pointed out and we talkedabout the fact that if, if
Veruca had been a boy, if it hadbeen Victor or something, we
would have received himdifferently.
Still a brat, but not, as he'sgoing places yeah, going to take
(51:07):
over his father's factory.
That ambition is going to servehim well, we might have said as
opposed to having him be deemeda bad egg and sent to the trash.
And then Dahl's weird bugabooabout gum chewing and TV viewing
as judgmental.
Oh, we also spent some timetalking about Dahl and his kind
(51:28):
of early 20th century Britishism, which then brings with it,
unfortunately, anti-semitism and, in his case, in his case in
his case, and very muchhierarchical thinking and the
idea of a meritocracy which isset up structurally to ensure
that people like Mr Dahl havemerit.
Emily Guy Birken (51:52):
And that's why Charlie is the successor is
because he is a diamond in therough.
He is like Wonka and Dahl.
He just happened to be born topoor parents and we'll fix that.
Tracie Guy-Decker (52:08):
He doesn't deserve poverty, unlike those
other people those other poorpeople who do deserve it.
Yeah, you also pointed out, interms of the on the positives
column, you pointed out some ofthe really lovely
cinematographic choices, suchthat the audience can be on the
edge of our seat watching achild unwrap a chocolate bar,
(52:31):
which is remarkable.
There's a lot of magic in thisfilm and in particular, gene
Wilder's performance, which hasa combination of magic and
menace and pathos.
What did I?
Emily Guy Birken (52:43):
forget.
I don't think there's anythingelse in there.
The one thing that I do kind ofwant to underline is why it
disturbs me so much thatCharlie's respect for Wonka's
property is a problem.
And it's because of thereactions that I saw from
(53:06):
friends of mine who have neverhad to go without in their lives
in the wake of the uprisingsafter George Floyd's murder,
when there were gas stations andCVSs and stuff like that that
were destroyed during thoseuprisings.
And the response I would hearfrom these friends is like I
(53:29):
totally understand why peopleare upset, but don't destroy
other people's things.
And on the one hand I was likewell, it's not necessarily the
protesters who are doing that.
A, b, that's why God inventedinsurance.
When you are comparing the deaththe extrajudicial and
(53:53):
extraordinarily painful andupsetting, horrifying death of a
person and the destruction ofproperty, how can you compare
them?
How can you say like oh, Iunderstand why you're upset, but
don't go breaking windows LikeI don't know.
Broken windows seemsappropriate and an appropriate
level of upset to me, and that'swhy I kind of want to underline
(54:15):
and that's part of the reasonwhy it was such a revelation to
me to be like oh, my God,charlie's not doing the right
thing right here because he isputting property above the lives
of his family.
And we so often imbibe thatmessage in so much of our media,
including this beloved gem ofour childhood, that we don't
(54:37):
even think about it.
We don't even think about, like, what is this compared to
people's lives, so that we'reable to pare it back, the idea
like, well, yeah, it'sunderstandable, they're upset,
but you know why are youthrowing chairs through windows,
like because it's that level ofupset?
This is not.
I am peeved.
Tracie Guy-Decker (54:57):
Yeah, I mean also like if people don't
respond to your inside voice,you got to use your outside
voice.
Yes, yeah, yes.
Emily Guy Birken (55:05):
So and I remember talking to these
friends and kind of like helpingthem get around that corner and
like, oh okay, yeah, oh okay, Iget it because they just never
had.
And they never had because ofmessages like this, which make
it clear that the property ofwealthy people is paramount.
Tracie Guy-Decker (55:26):
Yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (55:27):
And we must respect it.
Tracie Guy-Decker (55:29):
Yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (55:33):
Childhood ruining.
Tracie Guy-Decker (55:36):
I feel like that could actually be the
subtitle of this show.
Emily Guy Birken (55:39):
Yes, deep thoughts about stupid shit will
ruin your childhood.
Tracie Guy-Decker (55:44):
Tracy and Emily ruin your childhood, yeah.
Emily Guy Birken (55:46):
Ruinning childhood since 2023.
But again, there is.
There is much to love in thisfilm, and that's I don't ever
want to be like, so don't watchit, right?
That's not.
That's not what we're saying.
We're saying when you watch it,recognize what you're, what
you're being told.
Tracie Guy-Decker (56:05):
Well, I think that the thing is to like.
Those lessons are in your headwhether you're examining them or
not, so let's examine them sothat we can respond to them
instead of reacting with them.
Emily Guy Birken (56:15):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Tracie Guy-Decker (56:17):
So next time, next time.
Emily Guy Birken (56:19):
I think you're going next time.
Tracie Guy-Decker (56:21):
Yes, next time I am going to share my deep
thoughts about Indiana Jonesand the Raiders of the Lost Ark.
I have a feeling you're goingto ruin my childhood.
It's entirely possible.
I'm really looking like, I'mreally looking forward to this
one.
I don't think that I've watchedit again since I, you know, did
(56:41):
my undergraduate and graduatework in religion, so that piece
of it I'm kind of excited about.
It's like a minor piece of it.
Emily Guy Birken (56:51):
But there I do know that there was a brief
time where you and I were doingTorah study together and we got
to the section describing theArk of the Covenant.
I'm like, oh my God, they did areally good job.
Tracie Guy-Decker (57:04):
Hey you, yeah you.
You're a deep thinker, I cantell.
Let's make it official.
Head on over to our website,guygirlsmediacom, and make sure
you don't miss a single deepthought.
You can get me and Emily inyour inbox every week.
What are you waiting for?
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
(57:27):
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember, popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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