April 29, 2025 • 55 mins
“We say who; we say when; we say how much.”
This week, Emily takes a deep dive into Pretty Woman, the 1990 blockbuster romantic comedy that catapulted Julia Roberts to stardom. The film was originally written as a tragic story about awful characters, and many people (including those close to the Guy sisters) lamented the Hollywood happy ending as “unrealistic”–but Emily argues that by giving Vivian and Edward the fairy tale ending, the film offers a feminist blueprint for knowing one’s worth. While the movie does not offer a nuanced view of sex work and falls into the “not like other girls” trope, it does show a woman who claims bodily autonomy and sets clear boundaries without shame or apology.
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Content warning: Discussion of attempted sexual assault and death by drug overdose
Mentioned in this episode
Why ‘Pretty Woman’ Should Be Considered a Feminist Classic
‘Pretty Woman’ 25 years later: The good, the bad and the revenge shopping
30 Years Later, Pretty Woman Is So Much More Than A Guilty Pleasure
Response to treatment of sex work in Deadpool
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
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We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So the other aspect of this that is part of the
reason why sex workers bothappreciate this film and are
critical of it is it's not avery realistic portrayal of sex
work, in part because JuliaRoberts is freaking Julia
Roberts.
So if she had been a plainlooking woman who went into
(00:21):
prostitution, none of this wouldhave happened.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture,what others might deem stupid
shit?
You know matters, you knowwhat's worth talking and
thinking about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1990 film Pretty Woman withmy sister, Tracy Guy-Decker, and
with you, let's get started.
So, Trace, I know you've seenthis film.
(01:06):
Tell me what you remember aboutPretty Woman.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
It's been a minute, but I definitely have seen it.
Julia Roberts is a prostituteand Richard Gere is a rich,
pretty boy who doesn't know howto drive a stick shift, which
means I didn't respect him fromthe very beginning.
The picture I have of this filmin my head is sort of a
retelling of Pygmalion, where hefashions I'm putting quotes
(01:29):
around that fashions her the wayhe wants her and then falls in
love with her, which, just as achassis, is kind of gross, at
least gendered the way thatPygmalion and Pretty Woman are.
There are vignettes that Iremember her boot being held up
by a safety pin and the woman inthe shop being dismissive and
(01:51):
snubbing her, and one of RichardGere's friends like
propositioning her after helearns who she is.
So I have like these, like kindof flashes, but I don't have
like a comprehensive picture ofthis film.
It wasn't one that wasparticularly important to me.
I don't think If it was, thenthat has faded.
(02:14):
So anyway, that's what I got.
But tell me, why are we talkingabout it today?
What's at stake in it for you?
Speaker 1 (02:24):
for you.
So it's something I've beenthinking about a little bit
lately, in part because we'vetalked, most recently in
Ladyhawk, about realism and howthe soundtrack for Ladyhawk
isn't realistic for a movieabout a woman who transforms
into a hawk during the day,right, right.
And the reason why this came upfor me is because I can recall
our stepfather saying, like well, the movie was supposed to end
(02:46):
in tragedy where?
So Vivian is the characterplayed by Julia Roberts.
Her friend dies by an overdoseand Vivian goes back to street
walking and it's a shame thatHollywood had to put the stink
of happiness on it.
That's what our stepfather said.
That's what our stepfather said, like what a damn shame it is
that you know, like we had tohave that super happy ending In
(03:07):
his mind, the story would havebeen served better by being
quote unquote more realistic andtherefore tragic yes.
Yeah, and I remember because Iwas 11 when the film came out.
(03:28):
I don't remember exactly whenthis comment when our stepfather
made this comment, but you know, I wouldn't have been much
older than that and I kind oftook what grownups said as
gospel, right Right, but it'sstuck in my head because I like
the happy ending and felt like,okay, well, maybe I have the
wrong opinion.
Yeah, so you judged yourselffor liking it.
Yes, yeah, and so I've actuallybeen thinking lately about like,
in part because I'm thinkinglike, who gets to decide what's
realistic?
A story is already aconstructed thing, it's already
(03:53):
something.
That is that's how stories are.
We're not watching, you know,people.
It's not a documentary, it'snot a documentary, and even
documentaries are constructed.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yeah, they're still curated, sure.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
And so I got to thinking about that and thinking
about what this story does,because it is a romantic comedy
that it wouldn't do if it werethe tragic film that the
screenwriter's name is JF Lawtonand the film was originally
called 3000, as in the $3,000that Edward, richard Gere's
character, pays Vivian for theweek he spends with her.
(04:25):
And I actually I don't knowbecause I haven't read the
screenplay as it was originallywritten, I don't even know if
it's possible to do that, but Ithink it would have been kind of
anti-feminist if it had beenhad that tragic ending.
That would be quote unquote,realistic, whereas it's hard to
say.
But one can say that this is afeminist film, like one can make
(04:48):
that argument that it's afeminist film, and I actually
think I believe it, with thesuper-duper happy Roses and
Rainbows ending that we get.
That's why I've been thinkingabout it lately and why I wanted
to talk about it.
So let me just kind of remindyou because it has been a while
since you've seen it.
So when the film opens, we meetEdward Lewis, played by Richard
(05:10):
Gere.
He is at a party being hostedby his longtime kind of friend,
kind of business partner, ordefinite business partner,
philip Stuckey, played by JasonAlexander to absolute smarmy,
oily, icky perfection, to thepoint where I have trouble
seeing Jason Alexander as a goodhuman being because of how well
(05:33):
he plays this character andthen the fact that Alexander
went on to be oh gosh, I'veforgotten the character's name
in Seinfeld, who's also yeah, Ihate that guy, George George.
Costanza.
Thank you, I hate that guy.
I can't even be in the samelike if it's on the.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, I hate that guy , George.
George Costanza, Thank you, Ihate that guy.
I can't even be in the sameLike.
If it's on the TV.
I have to leave the room.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, and like I don't truly believe that Jason
Alexander is like that, but he'skind of gotten typecast and so
like I just so we meet them.
We see Edward is on the phonewith his girlfriend back in New
York, because he actually livesin New York.
He's in Los Angeles which iswhere this takes place for a
business deal for a week and heand his girlfriend are fighting
(06:15):
because he expected her to be inLos Angeles with him and she
says I speak to you more often,or speak to your secretary more
often than I speak to you, andso she is going to be moving out
of his apartment and on his wayout Edward greets a woman who
was very happy to see him, whowe find out they used to date.
She just recently got marriedand he said when we were dating,
did you speak to my secretarymore often than you spoke to me?
And she said she was one of mybridesmaids.
(06:36):
That's a good line, which Ihave to say, well done, jf
Lawton.
Like that is a very good way ofestablishing this character.
So he leaves the party.
It is a very LA kind ofneighborhood, like it's an
expensive house, but you knowit's these small streets and so
(06:58):
they have a valet car park, butthe limousine that Edward took
is stuck and so they would haveto move like seven or eight cars
.
So Edward takes Stucky's Lotusand says he's driving it to the
hotel, and as he's leaving,stucky's like do you even know
how to drive a stick shift?
And he clearly does not.
(07:18):
He gets lost and he ends up onHollywood Boulevard where Vivian
Ward and Kit DeLuca, herroommate, are in their corner,
which is like it's by whichstars there are they're Carol
Lombard, I think and he likestalls in front of them.
And so Kit encourages Vivianlike yeah, go over there, that
(07:41):
guy, that guy will have the rentfor us, because it's clearly a
very expensive car and someonewho's driving it badly.
And so she goes and asks if hewants a date.
He's like actually I just wantdirections.
She says that'll be five bucks.
He's like I have to pay fordirections.
She's like now it's 10.
And so she kind of impresses himimmediately because she doesn't
(08:02):
take any shit, and shenegotiates with him and she ends
up getting in the car with himand saying like I'll go with you
, and he like hands her a 20.
She's like do you have changefor a 20?
And she's like no, it's justthe 20.
So as they're driving, she'slike man, this has got to like
turn corners, like it's on rails.
And he's like I have no ideawhat you're talking about.
(08:22):
And she's saying like, oh well,you know four cylinders, blah,
blah, blah, blah.
Have you really seen what thisthing can do?
And so in the conversation inthe car she ends up talking
about how, where she grew up,all the boys that she grew up
with would like buy, beat up oldmuscle cars, fix them up and
sell them.
And she paid attention.
And so she ends up offering todrive because he's really
(08:44):
struggling with the stick shift.
And they end up at his hotelit's the Beverly Regency,
wilshire, something like thatwhich is very posh.
She is dressed for the job shehas.
So she's like all right, well,I'll take a cab with my 20 bucks
(09:05):
.
And then she goes and sits at abus stop bench.
He goes to go in and then hecomes back and says to her like
why don't you come up with me?
And they had before establishedthat she charges $100 for an
hour of her time.
And he's impressed by that.
I looked it up $100 in 1990would be like $330 today.
(09:26):
And he gives her his overcoatto wear.
And she's like why?
And he says because this kindof place doesn't charge by the
hour.
So she kind of makes animpression on people.
They see how she's dressed andthey head up to he has the
penthouse suite.
He tells her he has thepenthouse because it's the best,
(09:47):
but he never goes out on thebalcony because he's terrified
of heights.
She is trying to get down tobusiness and he's like no, this
isn't working for me, how muchwould it cost for the whole
night?
And she says okay, $300.
He says okay, fine.
And so he's still doing somework.
She's watching I Love Lucy andlaughing and just like as
(10:10):
luminous as Julia Roberts iscapable of being, like just wow.
And so he then kind of likelike all right, now fade to
black.
The next morning he wakes up andsees she had been wearing this
blonde wig and so now hernatural red hair is showing.
He gets up and has room service, bring breakfast.
(10:32):
And she's trying to get out.
She's like, oh you, let mesleep in.
He's like, no, no, no, it'sokay, stay, I brought breakfast.
Have something to eat.
And makes it clear likehospitality is fine.
And so she's like do you mindif I take a bath?
He says, sure, go ahead.
He gets a call from Stuckysaying that Morse, who is the
(10:53):
head of the company that Edwardis there to take over and
dismantle, wants to have dinnerwith him that night.
And Stucky is saying like I'm alittle like I kind of don't
want you to do that, I'm worriedit's going to mess up this deal
.
You know, like if you saysomething it's going to tick him
off.
And he says why don't you takea date and make it a social
(11:13):
thing?
And so Edward's like, huh,actually that could work.
And so asks Vivian if she willstay with him for the rest of
the week, which is how longhe'll be in Los Angeles.
And they negotiate that it'llbe $3,000.
She asked for $4,000.
He says $2,000.
They come to the middle at$3,000.
And then, as he's leaving, shesays I would have stayed for
(11:35):
$2,000.
And he says I would have paid$4,000.
He also gives her money to goshopping so that she can have
some appropriate clothes to wear.
And that's the moment youremember.
She goes down to Rodeo Drive andgoes into a boutique where they
run her off.
They're very, very mean to hervery cruel because of what she's
wearing.
She's feeling kind of dejectedand comes back to the hotel and
(11:58):
the manager of the hotel playedby Hector Elizondo, his name is
Barnard Thompson and sheimmediately starts calling him.
Barney sees her and talks toher and says I trust that there
are no other people that you'llbe meeting with here in this
hotel.
So, in a much more dignifiedway, basically saying it's
(12:20):
totally fine that you're herewith Edward Lewis.
I really don't think you cancome back.
And then he says somethingabout what she's wearing and
she's like I tried to buyclothes.
I have all this money and theywere mean to me and I couldn't
buy clothes.
So Thompson picks up the phone.
She's like all right, great,call the cops, here we go.
(12:40):
And actually he's calling afriend of his who works at a
local Macy's or something likethat, a department store, and
says I'm sending a woman over toyou.
Her name is Vivian, I want youto help her find a dress.
And so he sends her to.
Her name is Bridget, is thewoman who works at the store,
who is very kind to her.
They had said that Edward isher uncle and Vivian, when she
(13:07):
goes, bridget, the woman at thestore is just like so I hear
that you're going to dinner withyour uncle, and she's like he's
not really my uncle.
And Bridget goes.
They never are dear.
So once she's gotten the dressshe realizes like oh, I don't
know how to go to a fine diningrestaurant.
What do I do?
And so she goes back to MrThompson and says can you please
(13:28):
help me?
I don't know what to do.
And he's like okay, these arethe forks you need.
He has a whole plate set up andstuff like that and very kindly
walks her through that.
They go to the dinner.
Mr Morse is there with hisgrandson, david.
Mr Morse is played by RalphBellamy, who was one of the Duke
brothers in Trading Places.
Thank you, I lost the name ofthe movie.
(13:50):
He is kind of a delightful oldman and David is also clearly
like a nice guy who is veryangry at the projected takeover
of the company.
There's a point where anappetizer is served and Vivian's
like wait, where's the salad?
This isn't this, this isn't.
I don't know how to eat this.
(14:10):
And uh, and Edward is likesalad comes after the dinner and
that's when Mr Morse says I cannever figure it out either and
just picks it up and eats itwith his hands and is like just
very, very kind to Edward andthe Morse's get into an argument
.
David Morse gets up and leavesand says Vivian, it was a real
pleasure meeting you.
(14:31):
And then Mr Morse also says Ishould go with my grandson and
good luck, miss Vivian,something like that.
So it's clear that she made areally good impression on the
two Morse's.
When they get back to the hotel,vivian says to Edward like I
can tell you, like Morse.
And he says, yeah, but emotionsdon't come into it.
And she had told him before shedoesn't kiss on the mouth.
(14:52):
And he says we're the samecreatures.
We both screw people for moneyand we both do what we can to
avoid getting emotions involved.
So the next morning edward saysto her like you need to buy
more clothes because she'd onlybought a dress for that night.
And she's like, well, it wasn'tas fun as I thought it would be
to go shopping because they'remean to me, and he's like they
(15:13):
were.
What now?
And he says to her storesaren't nice to people, they're
nice to credit cards.
So he takes her to a smallstore and tells the manager like
we are going to spend anobscene amount of money and so
you also need to be sucking up.
And the manager's like howobscene are we talking?
Are we talking like mildlyprofane or truly obscene?
(15:36):
And he's like truly obscene.
And so there is this shoppingmontage.
Edward ends up leaving to go towork and one of the salespeople
who's helping Vivian, she saysEdward would love that tie.
And so the manager's like giveher the tie.
So she just basically takesthis tie from the salesperson
(15:57):
and then that's when she goesback to once.
She is dressed to the nines,carrying all of the packages.
She goes back to the RodeoDrive boutique and says do you
remember me?
And the woman's like I'm sorry,we haven't packages.
She goes back to the RodeoDrive boutique and says do you
remember me?
And the woman's like I'm sorry,we haven't met.
She's like oh, I was hereyesterday and you wouldn't sell
to me.
You work on commission, right,it was a big mistake, huge,
showing all of the packages shehas.
(16:20):
So we then see she and Edwarddoing all kinds of stuff
together.
They go to a polo match becauseDavid Morse is a polo player
and there is a senator therethat Edward is talking to who's
on the House AppropriationsCommittee because the Morse
company, which does some kind ofshipping thing, is looking at a
(16:40):
potential $350 million contractfor the Navy and so they're
trying to put a wrench in thatcontract so that it's easier for
Edward to buy Morse's company.
So he's at Polo and Vivian endsup talking to David.
He sees her, he's like, oh,come, meet my horse.
And all of that.
Stucky sees that and isparanoid, thinking she might be
(17:02):
some kind of corporate spy,because where the heck did
Edward find her?
And so Edward ends up tellingStucky that Vivian is a
prostitute and Stuckyimmediately starts treating her
like a piece of meat.
And when they get back to thehotel, vivian and Edward have an
argument where she says like Ican't believe.
You told him I've never felt socheap.
(17:23):
And he says I have a hard timebelieving that.
And she's like that's it, Iwant my money, I'm leaving.
So he gets the $3,000.
He promised her puts it on thebed and she leaves and she
doesn't take the money.
I'm sorry, that was cruel.
(17:49):
I hadn't thought about how totalk about us to people and I
should not have done that.
I want you to stay, pleasedon't go.
And she said all right, but itwon't happen again.
And he said absolutely, it's areally well done movie, apology,
I have to say.
She convinces him take a dayoff, which really pisses off
Stucky.
He also he takes her to theopera, and the opera that they
go to see in San Francisco is LaTraviata.
(18:11):
I'm not very familiar withopera, but apparently it's an
opera about a sex worker.
And when it's finally the day togo meet with Morse, because
Morse changes his course, he'slike okay, we'll accept the deal
, please make sure my employeesare taken care of.
And Edward says I want everyoneto leave the room except for me
(18:33):
and Morse.
I want to talk to him alone.
Stucky tries not to leave.
He's like no, I said me andMorse alone.
One of the things that Vivianhas said to Edward is like so
you don't make things, you don'tbuild things.
And he's like well, I makemoney.
So he says to Morse like myinterest has changed.
I don't want to buy yourcompany and dismantle it, but
(18:57):
it's vulnerable even if I don'tdo it.
So I want to invest in yourcompany so that you can continue
doing what you're doing andpass it along to David, so that
we can make things together, wecan build things together.
It was a billion dollar deal,and so that means Edward's
company has lost millions ofdollars by doing this.
And Edward is like kind of justoff communing with himself and
(19:17):
Stucky shows up at the hotelvery angry.
Edward isn't there and Stuckyhits Vivian and is I didn't
remember that.
Oh, yeah, he physically rememberthat, oh yeah, physically
strikes.
He physically strikes her.
Um, she's saying to him likehe's he starts off somewhat
socially acceptable, appropriate, but angry, and he's saying
(19:39):
like I'm really not happy, butyou know, maybe if I screw you
I'll be as happy as Edward is,ew, and she's like folding up
into herself and trying to getaway from him and he tries to
grab her and she says don'ttouch me.
And that's when he hits her.
Edward gets back as that'shappening and he throws Stucky
(20:01):
off of her and punches him,probably breaks his nose.
That's what Stucky says.
And Stucky's like we've beentogether 10 years, I've been
your friend for 10 years.
And Edward says it's the killthat you love, not me.
Like I've made you a lot ofmoney, that's enough, we're done
.
So, vivian, thanks Edward.
Edward offers he says I'd liketo see you again.
(20:24):
And he offers to put her up inan apartment, have a car, have
an amount of money available.
And she says no, no, that's notacceptable to me.
And he's like what are youexpecting?
And she tells the story of whenshe was a little girl.
Her mother would lock her inthe attic when she was
(20:45):
misbehaving, and so she wouldpretend she was a princess,
princess Vivian, who is lockedup, an evil queen, and then a
prince on a white knight cameand rescued her.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
A prince on a white knight, yes.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
A prince on a white horse.
Thank you, that's a verydifferent movie.
Thank you, that's a verydifferent movie.
But you know in all the timesthat she had that dream, that
fantasy, he never said I'm goingto set you up in a really nice
condo.
And he says to her like I nevertreated you like a prostitute.
(21:19):
And she says you just did so.
She has, even though there'sone night before he leaves, she
has packed up and is leaving andshe says I'm not staying for
anymore.
He gives her the money.
It's not transactional, it's,it's much more like.
He gives it to her and saysthank you.
So there is a a sense ofequality there in a way.
(21:42):
And as she's leaving she saysgoodbye to to Mr Thompson and
thanks him and he says I hopeyou come back sometime.
And she says I'm going to get acab to go home.
He says no, no, no, Daryl willtake you and that is the hotel's
limo driver.
So you see her back at herapartment with Kit and she gives
(22:02):
money to Kit, who we know hasstruggled with drugs, and she
says to Kit don't let anyonetell you, you can't do something
, you know.
And Vivian has decided to moveto San Francisco and Kit's like
what are you going to do?
She's like I'm going to finishhigh school, get a job.
You know like I got gradesuntil I dropped out.
And meanwhile Edward is as he'schecking out of the hotel.
(22:25):
Mr Thompson says to him likeit's probably tough to leave
something so beautiful, andthey're nominally talking about
the jewelry that Edward hadborrowed for Vivian to wear.
But Thompson is clearly talkingabout Vivian and Thompson also
mentions by the way, dara willtake you to the airport, but he
also drove Miss Vivian home.
By the way, daryl will take youto the airport, but he also
(22:48):
drove Miss Vivian home.
So at the end we see Edwardstopping to pick up some flowers
and right next to that is Kittalking to another prostitute
saying like I'm going to have tocharge you more rent than I did
, vivian, because I'm going togo to beauty school and I'm not
sure how much I'm going to bearound.
So we get the sense that Kit isgoing to make you know, make
different decisions.
So Edward pulls up to theapartment, calls out to Vivian
(23:13):
and then he climbs up the fireescape, overcoming some of his
fear of heights to be the prince, and he says to her so what
happened after?
The prince rescued the princessand she says she rescued him
right back and then it ends withthis is a man we saw at the
very beginning.
There's a man who's just kindof like walking and talking,
like you see sometimes in, youknow, downtown areas, going like
(23:36):
Hollywood.
Everyone comes to Hollywoodwith a dream.
What's your dream?
And that's the end of the film.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Hmm, okay, all right, so where do we start?
Speaker 1 (23:46):
So, because we do Bechdel so often, let's do
Bechdel passes flying colors,okay.
So Kit and Vivian talk aboutall kinds of stuff multiple
times.
They do talk about theirprofession, they talk about love
, but they also like talk about,like the rent, they talk about
food, you know, and Vivian givesKit that advice, those sorts of
things.
(24:06):
Sure, we also see Vivian andBridget talk, so there's
multiple opportunities forconversations.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
So, as a reminder listeners, the Bechdel test from
Alison Bechdel asks threequestions Are there at least two
female characters with names?
Do they talk to one another?
And do they talk to one anotherabout something other than a
man or a boy?
So okay, so Pretty Woman passesback down.
Great.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Yes, so that's great.
The other thing that PrettyWoman does and part of the
reason why I feel like it's afeminist movie is that
celebrates the bodily autonomyof women.
So at one point early on, kitand Vivian are talking about how
they're struggling.
Early on, kit and Vivian aretalking about how they're
(24:48):
struggling and Kit says maybe weshould get a pimp, and Vivian
says no, because then we got todo what he says and he'll take
our money and they repeattogether we say who we say when
we say how much, and that's-.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
That's their mantra.
That's their mantra and that'ssomething that Vivian says when
(25:19):
she's upset and she's not ableto get it out.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
But when she's fighting with Edward she says I
say who, I say when I, and I'llput a link to in the show notes.
But I read some analysistalking about the kind of
subversive autonomy that Viviangives to Kit at the end.
Because she gives Kit money butshe does not put any conditions
on it, on it right, knowing,because we we saw at the
(25:49):
beginning kit took their rentmoney to buy drugs, knowing that
kit is not necessarily a goodbet.
But kit has her own bodilyautonomy, her own like life
autonomy, and so it is herdecision what she does with that
money.
Right, and so vivian calls itthe the edward lewis scholarship
and she also says she's like wesee such potential in you, kit,
(26:13):
and kit actually like beams,she's like really.
So there is a little bit of thelike.
All you need is a kind word andsome money.
Yeah, but at the same time,there is something very
impressively subversive aboutthis is for you do with it what
(26:33):
you will, and here's why I hopeyou'll make different decisions
than you have before.
But you're an adult, so that Ifeel like is really kind of
impressive.
You're an adult, so that I feellike is really kind of
impressive.
The other thing that I foundreally interesting is there is a
point at the polo match whereEdward introduces Vivian to two
(26:57):
sisters, gretchen and Gwen thatis very difficult to say and
says they have made marryingwell an art form.
And then one of the two snubsVivian and the other one says
don't mind her, edward is ourmost eligible bachelor.
And I know just a general likesomeone watching.
(27:20):
It is not necessarily going tomake this connection, but it
really lit something up for mewhich is really going to make
this connection.
But it really lit something upfor me, which is there is not
really a material differencebetween them and Vivian and Kit,
except for time frame.
And similarly, when Edward isoffering the apartment to make
her his mistress, he says well,at least it'll get you off the
(27:42):
streets.
And she said that's justgeography.
So there's this parallel andthat's why I think it's fair to
call this a feminist movie,because it makes it clear that
women have these kind ofconstrained options, for
whatever reason.
Now Vivian's backstory.
(28:02):
She tells Edward that her momcalls her a bum magnet and the
first guy she fell in love withwas nothing, and so it was the
second, the third bum, shefollowed to Los Angeles, and
then he didn't stay and so shewas here in Los Angeles.
She had dropped out of schoolin 11th grade.
No bum, no job, no money.
But she was too ashamed to gohome.
(28:23):
So she started off working fastfood.
Couldn't make rent, and thenshe met Kit, who made turning
tricks sound glamorous, and soshe decided to try it.
The first time was awful.
She cried the entire time, butafter that she got some regulars
and she decides who, shedecides when.
She decides how much.
(28:43):
So, considering the way that wesee edward's peers treat women,
there's something that feels alittle more honest about the way
that vivian lives, because atleast the negotiations are out
on the table.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah, yeah, in addition.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah, in addition, vivian negotiates with Edward at
every point, like she says thisis what I will do, this is what
I will not do.
When he offers something she isunwilling to accept, she says no
and is figuring something elseout for herself, which is just a
(29:25):
wonderfully feminist take on it.
I read a lot of historicalfiction and so you'll often find
kept women in historicalfiction and there's not
necessarily anything wrong withthat either and in fact, vivian
says if you'd asked me this aweek ago, I would have said yes,
but she has fallen in love withhim and she's not willing to
(29:46):
accept anything less than fullpartnership Mm-hmm, like being
with him in the open, mm-hmm.
Which is why that's the fantasyof the white knight coming to
save her is not as icky as Ithought it might have been,
because it's this specificwoman's specific dream that she
(30:07):
said she will not take any lessthan, and she says she rescues
him right back, which I alwaysfelt like that was like we got
to stick something in here forthe ladies, except that we do
see that she has made positivechanges in his life.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yeah, she's been rescuing him the whole time.
Yes, from you know, from notknowing how to drive a stick
shift, to selling his soul,mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Yes.
So there's a bit of a yes endthere, because this is very much
like the.
It's a manic pixie dream girlhooker with a heart of gold
trope.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
And even the it's a little bit born sexy yesterday,
Not exactly, but Well, becauseof the Pygmalion connection that
I named.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Yes yes, I mean Pygmalion is like maybe the
original born sexy yesterdayExactly.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
And like she's a fish out of water in you know this
high society.
But because she's, you know,just so plucky and wonderful,
she manages to disarm people.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Yeah, yeah, I feel like there's something like you
named that while she's watchingI Love Lucy and she is as
effervescent as Julia Roberts iscapable of being, which is
pretty fucking effervescent,like there's something about
that that is that sort ofexceptional like the not like
other girls.
Yes, like she's a hooker who'snot like other girls, which is,
I guess, the hooker with theheart of gold trope.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
But yeah, there's definitely a exceptionalism to
julia roberts as vivianspecifically because if edward
had picked up kit right, thisisn't how this would have gone
right and like, on the one hand,like well, yeah, because
they're uniquely suited to eachother, because they fall in love
, but on the other hand, it'sbecause she's special.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Right, right.
That's what makes him able tofall in love with her because
she's special.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
She shouldn't be a prostitute.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
She's in the wrong profession.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
As opposed to Kit, who maybe deserves it.
Yeah, as opposed to Kit, whomaybe deserves it.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah, now to be fair to the film and Gary Marshall,
the director, and even JF Lawton, kit is fully human.
We see that Kit is a full humanbeing who is making the best of
the situation she's in.
So we're not comparing Vivianto a cardboard cutout, yeah, but
(32:28):
at the same time.
So the other aspect of thisthat is part of the reason why
sex workers both appreciate thisfilm and are critical of it is
it's not a very realisticportrayal of sex work, in part
because Julia Roberts isfrickin' Julia Roberts.
So if she had been a plainlooking woman?
(32:49):
who went into prostitution, noneof this would have happened,
even just as bubbly andeffervescent as in terms of her
character, but if she didn'thave Julia Roberts' smile.
So there's lookism to this, andthe fact that she's a white
woman, a white cisgender woman,is also like.
(33:12):
This would only work in a storyabout a woman played by Julia
Roberts.
And to get to the realismaspect of it, because sex
workers say this isn't realistic.
Another thing that I read Ithink the same article, saying
that there is somethingsubversive about the fact that
(33:34):
Vivian doesn't have trauma.
She has not been sexuallyassaulted or have any kind of
trauma.
That led to getting into this,and that was very subversive and
I hadn't thought of it that way.
It just, you know, showed howsomeone can fall into a life
that they didn't plan becausethey didn't feel like they had
any other options.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Yeah, can we stay with that for a minute?
Because I feel like there'ssomething, too, that like I
(34:26):
haven't spent a lot of timethinking about this, but there
are a couple of publicintellectual sex workers who
talk about it as like.
Like, don't feel sorry for me,this is the life I want.
And like people use their bodyfor work all the time and like
movers, but the film itself ajudgment of them as sex workers
that, like you know, weunderstand they made the best
choices they could, but like wewish they didn't have to make
(34:47):
this choice and my sense fromsex worker advocates is like
that that attitude actually isless than helpful.
Like sex work is work and likeif you don't like it, don't do
it, but don't shit on people whoactually do find it fulfilling
for whatever reason, and I thinkthat next level is missing,
(35:07):
which maybe in 1990 is too muchto ask for, yeah, but I do think
it's like worth kind of naming.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
It's not just that we need to remember that sex
workers are people, it's alsothat it's a literature to make
choice for occupation.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
And the only mainstream film that I can think
of that has done that and thatI know sex workers actually
really appreciate is Deadpool,because Deadpool's girlfriend,
vanessa, is a sex worker and Iremember reading something
talking about how, after hedisappears, she stops
specifically turning tricks.
She's doing other types of sexwork.
(35:46):
I think she's dancing and thisessay I read was saying like,
yeah, if you're in anemotionally vulnerable place,
sex work is kind of like theoriginal emotional labor.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, totally, totally.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
And the idea that, like she could turn tricks while
she was and I don't know ifthat's an appropriate word term
to use, but I'm trying to.
So my apologies if that isoffensive, but the fact that she
did that while she was withWade and then stopped when he
went away and she thought he wasdead makes sense and is not any
kind of like weird situation.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Yeah, sure, it makes sense psychologically.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yes, yeah, yeah, situation, yeah, sure it makes
sense psychologically.
Yes, yeah, yeah.
And so, yeah, and that's partof the reason and this is one of
the things that sex workeradvocates are big on
decriminalizing it and making itlegal is because there are a
lot of vulnerable people whohave been trafficked or
otherwise fallen into sex workthat they don't want.
But they're not the criminals.
(36:42):
Yes, and the thing is like thathappens because it's not a
legitimate way to work.
It wouldn't happen.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
If it were legal as much as much.
Sure, we're running a littleshort on time.
I know I sort of interruptedyou.
You were talking about realismand the fact that Vivian doesn't
have any sexual trauma.
I feel like being locked in theattic is kind of traumatic.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Yes, but she doesn't have any sexual trauma that we
know of, and that that wassubvers.
It's unlikely that Vivian wouldbe a pretty white woman.
That's not realistic.
(37:27):
So this is already a fairy tale.
It's a modern fairy tale, butit's a fairy tale and there's
plenty of rags to riches.
Beautiful young, impoverishedyoung woman is rescued by a rich
man, and so that's part of thereason why I feel like if this
film had been created as thegritty drama that JF Lawton had
originally written, it would notbe a feminist film.
(37:49):
Because, yes, it's a fairy taleand fairy tales are generally
kind of anti-feminist, but whatwe have is a fairy tale that
humanizes something that wasvery much demonized in 1990, to
the point where conservativesand critics will say like it
glamorizes prostitution.
(38:10):
And while it's not a veryrealistic point of view of
prostitution, early on we seeVivian, see a colleague, skinny
Marie, dead in a dumpster.
Oh, probably an overdose, it'snot clear exactly what happened
to her, so like no, this doesnot glamorize prostitution, it
shows it.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Yeah, and it allows the prostitutes to be human.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yes, and smart, as effervescent as Julia Roberts
can be yes, and also savvy, likehaving the negotiation ability.
And like recognizing her worth,even in a way that people find
difficult to accept, likerecognizing your worth in terms
of per hour.
Feels icky if we don't think ofsex work as work, so that I
(38:58):
think is pretty subversive.
So that I think is prettysubversive.
And then the fact that it has ahappy ending means that we get
to see a woman demanding whatshe's worth and getting it.
If it had been a gritty dramawhere apparently he like in the
(39:24):
original version, Edward threwthe $3,000 into the gutter after
she got out of the car.
So way to metaphor there, jf.
So if we had had that, it wouldhave just been reinforcing the
idea that sex work is not realwork, which this already kind of
does but like reinforcing thatshe's not worth that money.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Yeah, she's not worth .
She's not human, she doesn'tdeserve a happy ending.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Yes, yeah and so like .
Why is that?
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Better.
Better, and if that's realisticwhy, right Like I think, what
our stepdad Wavalu was gettingat was that it's more
statistically likely that Kitdies of an overdose and Vivian
continues to walk the street.
More statistically likely, butthis isn't statistics, it's a
story.
It's a story, yeah, and thereare lessons that we're trying to
(40:15):
convey, and by doing so, we'realso like helping to co-create
the future in terms of whatstories we can tell in the
future.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Yes, and by doing this, you and I, as like 11 and
14-year-olds, see a womanstanding up for what she
deserves and not allowingherself to be shamed for
decisions she's made.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Right, right, which is pretty great.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
There's a reason why women love this movie.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yeah, um, yeah before we started recording.
One of the things that you toldme that you wanted to talk
about here, that we haven'tquite gotten to, is what we've
danced around.
It is capitalism, materialism,and who gets to be human.
So can I invite you to talkabout that a bit?
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Yeah.
So this is a very late 80s,early 90s film in that there is,
like this, overarchingconsumerism throughout.
Now there are some littlepushbacks.
So when Vivian asks Edward whathe does originally, she's like
I bet you're a lawyer.
And he says why?
(41:23):
And she says you've got thatsharp, useless look around you.
And she's not wrong because hedoesn't make anything or build
anything.
And Edward even says storesaren't nice to people, they're
nice to credit cards.
(41:44):
Kit visits Vivian while she'sall dressed up at one point and
Vivian says like you know, it'sreally easy to clean up, nice
when you got money.
But the moment that youremember is the shopping spree
and then her getting her revengeon the snooty boutique.
And you know there's a coupleof ways of looking at that Like.
On the one hand there's thelike.
It's the like, money solveseverything.
Hand, it's the like, moneysolves everything.
(42:07):
But on the other, there is thelike you're judging someone
based on what they look like.
And it's sweet to give themtheir comeuppance for judging
you.
But over and over again, whenpeople were like noticing
Vivianian because she'sblossomed into this high society
lady, it's all trappingsbecause she's the same person,
(42:29):
right that she was in the cutout.
You know, peekaboo dress withthe, with the blonde wig and the
the thigh high heat um boots.
She's just in trappings thatsociety thinks are more
acceptable and that doesn't feelgreat.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Yeah, it's sort of, especially if I put my Pygmalion
on it again.
Like in Pygmalion, it was asculpture that came to life, so
it was marble that became human.
But Vivian, prior to the goodclothes, was not marble.
She was human yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Yeah, and even seeing how, when Kit comes to see
Vivian at the hotel, the waythat Mr Thompson treats Kit.
He is always very dignified andpolite, but he calls Vivian in
her room and will not let Kit goup to see her until Vivian
(43:23):
acknowledges yes, that's myfriend, I asked her to come and
so that's part of the like.
Who gets to be human.
Kit doesn't really get to havethe same kind of like.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
I hope you come back sometime, that Mr.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
Thompson gives, and it's the not like other girls.
There's a gatekeeping and she'smanaged to get through the gate
.
Yes, mm-hmm, in addition tobeing a sex worker, if she were
black, if she were disabled, ifshe were not cisgender, that
gate would have been kept closed.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Yeah, no matter how much Edward would have liked her
, how effervescent she was.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Because Mr Thompson makes it clear that he is
accepting Vivian there, becauseEdward is a very special client
Right.
In fact he's a friend Right,and we let things go with
friends that we don't withclients.
And so money, money allows herto be human.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Right.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
And then she wins people over, so that doesn't
feel great.
Yeah, that's kind of disturbing.
That really doesn't feel greatyeah, that's kind of disturbing
that really doesn't feel great,but it's also like it's a
product of its time.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
Sure, I mean, that's what we got in 80s and early 90s
movies yeah and we see likestucky, very clearly taken down
because he refuses to see vivianas human yeah, and and it
sounds like edward actually evensort of says you don't even see
(45:07):
me as human.
I just make you a lot of moneyand that's why you like me, yes,
so but that also that meansstucky is abusive because he
doesn't see it.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Everyone's an npc to him, everyone's a
non-playerplayer character and Iappreciate the film having that
in there.
Because that's the other aspectthat I think is really kind of
subversive is it makes it clearthat Stucky's abuse is his
problem.
He is a monster.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
It's not because Vivian has done something wrong
or has put herself in avulnerable position because of
what she wore or any of thosethings.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Yeah, yeah and like that kind of reinforces, the we
say who we say when we say howmuch so.
That was something that Ineeded to see as a young
teenager and that I think thatthe mainstream audiences needed
to see and have a a way oflooking at sex work and abusive
(46:05):
sex workers that puts the onuson the abusers yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, and doesn't blame thevictims yes, yeah, it is
something where, like edwardsaves her in that moment because
he he gets home or gets back tothe hotel in time and pulls him
off of her, which is also likethat's.
I texted you while I waswatching.
(46:26):
Going like this is actuallypretty disturbing because if he
hadn't gotten back at that time,saki would have raped her.
He would have.
It's very, very clear and Imean talk about realistic, like
I always do want to see womenget themselves out of like
situations like that, but thatdoesn't necessarily mean they
can in films Like that actuallyis very realistic that it would
(46:51):
and actually just now occurringto me, probably part of the
reason- why she's going to San.
Francisco.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
You know, stucky knows she lives in Hollywood, he
knows that she walks HollywoodBoulevard, so she needs to get
out.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Yeah Well, we are really running short on time, so
is there any final insightsthat you want to share before I
wrap up?
Speaker 1 (47:29):
I just want to like I think this movie it was a
touchstone and I think that it'slike we've talked about other
movies before, where we neededthis to get Vanessa and Deadpool
.
Yeah, and I know that when Ifirst learned about sex worker
(47:51):
advocacy it surprised me becauseI didn't really.
I had imbibed the culturalconditioning that sex work is
shameful and that's, you know,only vulnerable people who have
no other choice have no otherchoice, uh, fall into it and no
one would choose to do that.
You know like it's horrible andyou know, taints you forever
(48:11):
bullshit.
And I'm not going to say thatthis movie like allowed me to
take in the sex worker advocacythat I read like that I wouldn't
have been able to if I hadn'tseen this movie, but it it gave
me a give me a place Like afoothold.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Yeah, give me a foothold.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
So when I was reading that and feeling surprised like
I could think back to like well, wait a minute, I love that
movie in a lot of ways.
I love the happy ending thatshe got, even though at the time
I was just like it'santi-feminist because he's a
white knight, even thoughactually no, it's, it's not.
And same as any kind of filmabout marginalized groups, since
(48:49):
it's the only movie that has asex worker as the main character
, as the titular character.
We don't have like anotherwoman going like yeah, I don't
want to be your mistress, Idon't want any of that.
I'm taking the three thousanddollars and and I'm going to
invest in blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Make my own happy ending.
Yeah, like trading places, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, we are out of time so letme see if I can very quickly
just hit the high notes.
So this movie was anincremental progress in terms of
humanizing sex workers and sexwork and sort of appropriately
(49:22):
assigning blame when there isabuse of sex workers to the
abusers.
Julia Roberts inhabited thissex worker character with all of
the effervescence that thatactress is capable of giving and
so really made her human.
And your point, the other sexworker in the movie, kit, is
(49:43):
also fully human.
So we see there's a little bitof a give and take insofar as
Vivian is not like other girls,but the other girls are also
human, even though the gatesprobably would stay closed for
them.
This film does pass Bechdel wellmany, many times.
I mean, you pointed to the factthat there's like there are
(50:03):
those, including people who areclose to us, who felt that it
was unrealistic because therewas a happy ending, and you
pointed out, like want to askthe question, like what is
realism?
Because it's not realistic thatshe would have been gorgeous
and white and able-bodied andall of those things.
You also pointed out that likeit's a story, it's already a
(50:24):
fairy tale, and so a desire forrealism insofar as statistically
sound like the actuarial tableor whatever for this person like
is not actually why is that athing that we would value?
You also talked about the focuson money as like the solution
for everything and the ways inwhich money actually is the key
(50:48):
for Julia Roberts becoming sortof more human in the eyes of all
the other characters andtherefore the audience, and how
kind of icky that is.
Because she's Vivian is thesame person.
She is not unlike in thePygmalion story on which the
chassis on which this is built.
She was not a hunk of marblelast week.
She was a human being and she'sstill a human being, and so
(51:09):
that kind of tension you namedsome of the tropes that we see
here are not like other girls.
The specific version of that isthe hooker with a heart of gold
, because it is sort of aPygmalion story and she's a fish
out of water.
She's also sort of born sexyyesterday and all that comes
with that, both the sort ofnaivete but also the wisdom that
we get with born sexy yesterday.
(51:31):
This film gave us JasonAlexander's typecasting as this
really monstrous person whoviews every single human being
in the world.
As a non-player character, he isthe only real human being and
therefore he is abusive ofeveryone, including his friend
Edward, but physically abusiveof Vivian.
And there is no doubt in eitherof our minds that if Edward had
(51:55):
not intervened when he did, theStucky would have raped Vivian,
which is really gross and maybethe reason that Vivian needs to
move from LA to San Francisco.
As a whole, this film took astep forward in terms of the way
the society viewed sex workers,but only a step, because the
movie still sort of views thisas shameful work that we really
(52:18):
want this woman that we love toget out of, even as it gave her
some autonomy around, somebodily autonomy and life
autonomy her and Kit that themovie gives them, that they
claim for themselves, that theygive one another.
Lastly, last thing I'll name isthat I feel like there's a
little bit of conversation, evenin your mind, about whether or
(52:40):
not this counts as a feministfilm, because there are things
about it that are and there arethings about it that absolutely
are not.
But I would say what I heardfrom you is that the happy
ending that we got actually madeit more feminist than if it had
been a so-called realisticending that was originally
written, with Kit dying of anoverdose and vivian staying as a
(53:02):
sex worker and continuing towalk the street.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
Cool the one thing that I want to bring up also is,
um, I mentioned how I don'tknow how much the movie is doing
this, because it's not likeunderlined or anything, but I
definitely saw it that there isthe sense that what Vivian does
is no different from what Gwenand Gretchen do, who make
marrying well an art.
It's just geography is thedifference.
Speaker 2 (53:30):
Just geography.
Right, that was the way thatshe said it.
And Gwen and Gretchen aresocially acceptable in ways that
Vivian is not.
Speaker 1 (53:36):
Yeah, which Vivian would be if she were a kept
woman.
She'd be socially acceptable ina lot of ways, in some ways, In
some ways anyway, yeah, yeah,more ways than she is currently
as we meet her, yeah.
She wouldn't be run out ofRodeo Drive Right.
Speaker 2 (53:51):
Right, she'd just be whispered about yes, yeah, cool,
all right.
Well, thanks for that.
So next week we're going totake a slightly different turn
and I'm going to bring you mydeep thoughts about the Barry
Levinson film Avalon.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
The Love.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Letter to Baltimore, so I'm looking forward to
rewatching that.
You cut the turkey without us,exactly, exactly All right.
Well, I'll see you then.
See you then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
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If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
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You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
(54:31):
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Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevinvin mcleod from
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Find full music credits in theshow notes thank you to resonate
recordings for editing today'sepisode until next time.
(54:54):
Remember.
Pop culture is still culture,and shouldn't you know what's in
your head?
So the other aspect of this that is part of the
reason why sex workers bothappreciate this film and are
critical of it is it's not avery realistic portrayal of sex
work, in part because JuliaRoberts is freaking Julia
Roberts.
So if she had been a plainlooking woman who went into
(00:21):
prostitution, none of this wouldhave happened.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture,what others might deem stupid
shit?
You know matters, you knowwhat's worth talking and
thinking about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1990 film Pretty Woman withmy sister, Tracy Guy-Decker, and
with you, let's get started.
So, Trace, I know you've seenthis film.
(01:06):
Tell me what you remember aboutPretty Woman.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
It's been a minute, but I definitely have seen it.
Julia Roberts is a prostituteand Richard Gere is a rich,
pretty boy who doesn't know howto drive a stick shift, which
means I didn't respect him fromthe very beginning.
The picture I have of this filmin my head is sort of a
retelling of Pygmalion, where hefashions I'm putting quotes
(01:29):
around that fashions her the wayhe wants her and then falls in
love with her, which, just as achassis, is kind of gross, at
least gendered the way thatPygmalion and Pretty Woman are.
There are vignettes that Iremember her boot being held up
by a safety pin and the woman inthe shop being dismissive and
(01:51):
snubbing her, and one of RichardGere's friends like
propositioning her after helearns who she is.
So I have like these, like kindof flashes, but I don't have
like a comprehensive picture ofthis film.
It wasn't one that wasparticularly important to me.
I don't think If it was, thenthat has faded.
(02:14):
So anyway, that's what I got.
But tell me, why are we talkingabout it today?
What's at stake in it for you?
Speaker 1 (02:24):
for you.
So it's something I've beenthinking about a little bit
lately, in part because we'vetalked, most recently in
Ladyhawk, about realism and howthe soundtrack for Ladyhawk
isn't realistic for a movieabout a woman who transforms
into a hawk during the day,right, right.
And the reason why this came upfor me is because I can recall
our stepfather saying, like well, the movie was supposed to end
(02:46):
in tragedy where?
So Vivian is the characterplayed by Julia Roberts.
Her friend dies by an overdoseand Vivian goes back to street
walking and it's a shame thatHollywood had to put the stink
of happiness on it.
That's what our stepfather said.
That's what our stepfather said, like what a damn shame it is
that you know, like we had tohave that super happy ending In
(03:07):
his mind, the story would havebeen served better by being
quote unquote more realistic andtherefore tragic yes.
Yeah, and I remember because Iwas 11 when the film came out.
(03:28):
I don't remember exactly whenthis comment when our stepfather
made this comment, but you know, I wouldn't have been much
older than that and I kind oftook what grownups said as
gospel, right Right, but it'sstuck in my head because I like
the happy ending and felt like,okay, well, maybe I have the
wrong opinion.
Yeah, so you judged yourselffor liking it.
Yes, yeah, and so I've actuallybeen thinking lately about like,
in part because I'm thinkinglike, who gets to decide what's
realistic?
A story is already aconstructed thing, it's already
(03:53):
something.
That is that's how stories are.
We're not watching, you know,people.
It's not a documentary, it'snot a documentary, and even
documentaries are constructed.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yeah, they're still curated, sure.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
And so I got to thinking about that and thinking
about what this story does,because it is a romantic comedy
that it wouldn't do if it werethe tragic film that the
screenwriter's name is JF Lawtonand the film was originally
called 3000, as in the $3,000that Edward, richard Gere's
character, pays Vivian for theweek he spends with her.
(04:25):
And I actually I don't knowbecause I haven't read the
screenplay as it was originallywritten, I don't even know if
it's possible to do that, but Ithink it would have been kind of
anti-feminist if it had beenhad that tragic ending.
That would be quote unquote,realistic, whereas it's hard to
say.
But one can say that this is afeminist film, like one can make
(04:48):
that argument that it's afeminist film, and I actually
think I believe it, with thesuper-duper happy Roses and
Rainbows ending that we get.
That's why I've been thinkingabout it lately and why I wanted
to talk about it.
So let me just kind of remindyou because it has been a while
since you've seen it.
So when the film opens, we meetEdward Lewis, played by Richard
(05:10):
Gere.
He is at a party being hostedby his longtime kind of friend,
kind of business partner, ordefinite business partner,
philip Stuckey, played by JasonAlexander to absolute smarmy,
oily, icky perfection, to thepoint where I have trouble
seeing Jason Alexander as a goodhuman being because of how well
(05:33):
he plays this character andthen the fact that Alexander
went on to be oh gosh, I'veforgotten the character's name
in Seinfeld, who's also yeah, Ihate that guy, George George.
Costanza.
Thank you, I hate that guy.
I can't even be in the samelike if it's on the.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, I hate that guy , George.
George Costanza, Thank you, Ihate that guy.
I can't even be in the sameLike.
If it's on the TV.
I have to leave the room.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, and like I don't truly believe that Jason
Alexander is like that, but he'skind of gotten typecast and so
like I just so we meet them.
We see Edward is on the phonewith his girlfriend back in New
York, because he actually livesin New York.
He's in Los Angeles which iswhere this takes place for a
business deal for a week and heand his girlfriend are fighting
(06:15):
because he expected her to be inLos Angeles with him and she
says I speak to you more often,or speak to your secretary more
often than I speak to you, andso she is going to be moving out
of his apartment and on his wayout Edward greets a woman who
was very happy to see him, whowe find out they used to date.
She just recently got marriedand he said when we were dating,
did you speak to my secretarymore often than you spoke to me?
And she said she was one of mybridesmaids.
(06:36):
That's a good line, which Ihave to say, well done, jf
Lawton.
Like that is a very good way ofestablishing this character.
So he leaves the party.
It is a very LA kind ofneighborhood, like it's an
expensive house, but you knowit's these small streets and so
(06:58):
they have a valet car park, butthe limousine that Edward took
is stuck and so they would haveto move like seven or eight cars
.
So Edward takes Stucky's Lotusand says he's driving it to the
hotel, and as he's leaving,stucky's like do you even know
how to drive a stick shift?
And he clearly does not.
(07:18):
He gets lost and he ends up onHollywood Boulevard where Vivian
Ward and Kit DeLuca, herroommate, are in their corner,
which is like it's by whichstars there are they're Carol
Lombard, I think and he likestalls in front of them.
And so Kit encourages Vivianlike yeah, go over there, that
(07:41):
guy, that guy will have the rentfor us, because it's clearly a
very expensive car and someonewho's driving it badly.
And so she goes and asks if hewants a date.
He's like actually I just wantdirections.
She says that'll be five bucks.
He's like I have to pay fordirections.
She's like now it's 10.
And so she kind of impresses himimmediately because she doesn't
(08:02):
take any shit, and shenegotiates with him and she ends
up getting in the car with himand saying like I'll go with you
, and he like hands her a 20.
She's like do you have changefor a 20?
And she's like no, it's justthe 20.
So as they're driving, she'slike man, this has got to like
turn corners, like it's on rails.
And he's like I have no ideawhat you're talking about.
(08:22):
And she's saying like, oh well,you know four cylinders, blah,
blah, blah, blah.
Have you really seen what thisthing can do?
And so in the conversation inthe car she ends up talking
about how, where she grew up,all the boys that she grew up
with would like buy, beat up oldmuscle cars, fix them up and
sell them.
And she paid attention.
And so she ends up offering todrive because he's really
(08:44):
struggling with the stick shift.
And they end up at his hotelit's the Beverly Regency,
wilshire, something like thatwhich is very posh.
She is dressed for the job shehas.
So she's like all right, well,I'll take a cab with my 20 bucks
(09:05):
.
And then she goes and sits at abus stop bench.
He goes to go in and then hecomes back and says to her like
why don't you come up with me?
And they had before establishedthat she charges $100 for an
hour of her time.
And he's impressed by that.
I looked it up $100 in 1990would be like $330 today.
(09:26):
And he gives her his overcoatto wear.
And she's like why?
And he says because this kindof place doesn't charge by the
hour.
So she kind of makes animpression on people.
They see how she's dressed andthey head up to he has the
penthouse suite.
He tells her he has thepenthouse because it's the best,
(09:47):
but he never goes out on thebalcony because he's terrified
of heights.
She is trying to get down tobusiness and he's like no, this
isn't working for me, how muchwould it cost for the whole
night?
And she says okay, $300.
He says okay, fine.
And so he's still doing somework.
She's watching I Love Lucy andlaughing and just like as
(10:10):
luminous as Julia Roberts iscapable of being, like just wow.
And so he then kind of likelike all right, now fade to
black.
The next morning he wakes up andsees she had been wearing this
blonde wig and so now hernatural red hair is showing.
He gets up and has room service, bring breakfast.
(10:32):
And she's trying to get out.
She's like, oh you, let mesleep in.
He's like, no, no, no, it'sokay, stay, I brought breakfast.
Have something to eat.
And makes it clear likehospitality is fine.
And so she's like do you mindif I take a bath?
He says, sure, go ahead.
He gets a call from Stuckysaying that Morse, who is the
(10:53):
head of the company that Edwardis there to take over and
dismantle, wants to have dinnerwith him that night.
And Stucky is saying like I'm alittle like I kind of don't
want you to do that, I'm worriedit's going to mess up this deal
.
You know, like if you saysomething it's going to tick him
off.
And he says why don't you takea date and make it a social
(11:13):
thing?
And so Edward's like, huh,actually that could work.
And so asks Vivian if she willstay with him for the rest of
the week, which is how longhe'll be in Los Angeles.
And they negotiate that it'llbe $3,000.
She asked for $4,000.
He says $2,000.
They come to the middle at$3,000.
And then, as he's leaving, shesays I would have stayed for
(11:35):
$2,000.
And he says I would have paid$4,000.
He also gives her money to goshopping so that she can have
some appropriate clothes to wear.
And that's the moment youremember.
She goes down to Rodeo Drive andgoes into a boutique where they
run her off.
They're very, very mean to hervery cruel because of what she's
wearing.
She's feeling kind of dejectedand comes back to the hotel and
(11:58):
the manager of the hotel playedby Hector Elizondo, his name is
Barnard Thompson and sheimmediately starts calling him.
Barney sees her and talks toher and says I trust that there
are no other people that you'llbe meeting with here in this
hotel.
So, in a much more dignifiedway, basically saying it's
(12:20):
totally fine that you're herewith Edward Lewis.
I really don't think you cancome back.
And then he says somethingabout what she's wearing and
she's like I tried to buyclothes.
I have all this money and theywere mean to me and I couldn't
buy clothes.
So Thompson picks up the phone.
She's like all right, great,call the cops, here we go.
(12:40):
And actually he's calling afriend of his who works at a
local Macy's or something likethat, a department store, and
says I'm sending a woman over toyou.
Her name is Vivian, I want youto help her find a dress.
And so he sends her to.
Her name is Bridget, is thewoman who works at the store,
who is very kind to her.
They had said that Edward isher uncle and Vivian, when she
(13:07):
goes, bridget, the woman at thestore is just like so I hear
that you're going to dinner withyour uncle, and she's like he's
not really my uncle.
And Bridget goes.
They never are dear.
So once she's gotten the dressshe realizes like oh, I don't
know how to go to a fine diningrestaurant.
What do I do?
And so she goes back to MrThompson and says can you please
(13:28):
help me?
I don't know what to do.
And he's like okay, these arethe forks you need.
He has a whole plate set up andstuff like that and very kindly
walks her through that.
They go to the dinner.
Mr Morse is there with hisgrandson, david.
Mr Morse is played by RalphBellamy, who was one of the Duke
brothers in Trading Places.
Thank you, I lost the name ofthe movie.
(13:50):
He is kind of a delightful oldman and David is also clearly
like a nice guy who is veryangry at the projected takeover
of the company.
There's a point where anappetizer is served and Vivian's
like wait, where's the salad?
This isn't this, this isn't.
I don't know how to eat this.
(14:10):
And uh, and Edward is likesalad comes after the dinner and
that's when Mr Morse says I cannever figure it out either and
just picks it up and eats itwith his hands and is like just
very, very kind to Edward andthe Morse's get into an argument
.
David Morse gets up and leavesand says Vivian, it was a real
pleasure meeting you.
(14:31):
And then Mr Morse also says Ishould go with my grandson and
good luck, miss Vivian,something like that.
So it's clear that she made areally good impression on the
two Morse's.
When they get back to the hotel,vivian says to Edward like I
can tell you, like Morse.
And he says, yeah, but emotionsdon't come into it.
And she had told him before shedoesn't kiss on the mouth.
(14:52):
And he says we're the samecreatures.
We both screw people for moneyand we both do what we can to
avoid getting emotions involved.
So the next morning edward saysto her like you need to buy
more clothes because she'd onlybought a dress for that night.
And she's like, well, it wasn'tas fun as I thought it would be
to go shopping because they'remean to me, and he's like they
(15:13):
were.
What now?
And he says to her storesaren't nice to people, they're
nice to credit cards.
So he takes her to a smallstore and tells the manager like
we are going to spend anobscene amount of money and so
you also need to be sucking up.
And the manager's like howobscene are we talking?
Are we talking like mildlyprofane or truly obscene?
(15:36):
And he's like truly obscene.
And so there is this shoppingmontage.
Edward ends up leaving to go towork and one of the salespeople
who's helping Vivian, she saysEdward would love that tie.
And so the manager's like giveher the tie.
So she just basically takesthis tie from the salesperson
(15:57):
and then that's when she goesback to once.
She is dressed to the nines,carrying all of the packages.
She goes back to the RodeoDrive boutique and says do you
remember me?
And the woman's like I'm sorry,we haven't packages.
She goes back to the RodeoDrive boutique and says do you
remember me?
And the woman's like I'm sorry,we haven't met.
She's like oh, I was hereyesterday and you wouldn't sell
to me.
You work on commission, right,it was a big mistake, huge,
showing all of the packages shehas.
(16:20):
So we then see she and Edwarddoing all kinds of stuff
together.
They go to a polo match becauseDavid Morse is a polo player
and there is a senator therethat Edward is talking to who's
on the House AppropriationsCommittee because the Morse
company, which does some kind ofshipping thing, is looking at a
(16:40):
potential $350 million contractfor the Navy and so they're
trying to put a wrench in thatcontract so that it's easier for
Edward to buy Morse's company.
So he's at Polo and Vivian endsup talking to David.
He sees her, he's like, oh,come, meet my horse.
And all of that.
Stucky sees that and isparanoid, thinking she might be
(17:02):
some kind of corporate spy,because where the heck did
Edward find her?
And so Edward ends up tellingStucky that Vivian is a
prostitute and Stuckyimmediately starts treating her
like a piece of meat.
And when they get back to thehotel, vivian and Edward have an
argument where she says like Ican't believe.
You told him I've never felt socheap.
(17:23):
And he says I have a hard timebelieving that.
And she's like that's it, Iwant my money, I'm leaving.
So he gets the $3,000.
He promised her puts it on thebed and she leaves and she
doesn't take the money.
I'm sorry, that was cruel.
(17:49):
I hadn't thought about how totalk about us to people and I
should not have done that.
I want you to stay, pleasedon't go.
And she said all right, but itwon't happen again.
And he said absolutely, it's areally well done movie, apology,
I have to say.
She convinces him take a dayoff, which really pisses off
Stucky.
He also he takes her to theopera, and the opera that they
go to see in San Francisco is LaTraviata.
(18:11):
I'm not very familiar withopera, but apparently it's an
opera about a sex worker.
And when it's finally the day togo meet with Morse, because
Morse changes his course, he'slike okay, we'll accept the deal
, please make sure my employeesare taken care of.
And Edward says I want everyoneto leave the room except for me
(18:33):
and Morse.
I want to talk to him alone.
Stucky tries not to leave.
He's like no, I said me andMorse alone.
One of the things that Vivianhas said to Edward is like so
you don't make things, you don'tbuild things.
And he's like well, I makemoney.
So he says to Morse like myinterest has changed.
I don't want to buy yourcompany and dismantle it, but
(18:57):
it's vulnerable even if I don'tdo it.
So I want to invest in yourcompany so that you can continue
doing what you're doing andpass it along to David, so that
we can make things together, wecan build things together.
It was a billion dollar deal,and so that means Edward's
company has lost millions ofdollars by doing this.
And Edward is like kind of justoff communing with himself and
(19:17):
Stucky shows up at the hotelvery angry.
Edward isn't there and Stuckyhits Vivian and is I didn't
remember that.
Oh, yeah, he physically rememberthat, oh yeah, physically
strikes.
He physically strikes her.
Um, she's saying to him likehe's he starts off somewhat
socially acceptable, appropriate, but angry, and he's saying
(19:39):
like I'm really not happy, butyou know, maybe if I screw you
I'll be as happy as Edward is,ew, and she's like folding up
into herself and trying to getaway from him and he tries to
grab her and she says don'ttouch me.
And that's when he hits her.
Edward gets back as that'shappening and he throws Stucky
(20:01):
off of her and punches him,probably breaks his nose.
That's what Stucky says.
And Stucky's like we've beentogether 10 years, I've been
your friend for 10 years.
And Edward says it's the killthat you love, not me.
Like I've made you a lot ofmoney, that's enough, we're done
.
So, vivian, thanks Edward.
Edward offers he says I'd liketo see you again.
(20:24):
And he offers to put her up inan apartment, have a car, have
an amount of money available.
And she says no, no, that's notacceptable to me.
And he's like what are youexpecting?
And she tells the story of whenshe was a little girl.
Her mother would lock her inthe attic when she was
(20:45):
misbehaving, and so she wouldpretend she was a princess,
princess Vivian, who is lockedup, an evil queen, and then a
prince on a white knight cameand rescued her.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
A prince on a white knight, yes.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
A prince on a white horse.
Thank you, that's a verydifferent movie.
Thank you, that's a verydifferent movie.
But you know in all the timesthat she had that dream, that
fantasy, he never said I'm goingto set you up in a really nice
condo.
And he says to her like I nevertreated you like a prostitute.
(21:19):
And she says you just did so.
She has, even though there'sone night before he leaves, she
has packed up and is leaving andshe says I'm not staying for
anymore.
He gives her the money.
It's not transactional, it's,it's much more like.
He gives it to her and saysthank you.
So there is a a sense ofequality there in a way.
(21:42):
And as she's leaving she saysgoodbye to to Mr Thompson and
thanks him and he says I hopeyou come back sometime.
And she says I'm going to get acab to go home.
He says no, no, no, Daryl willtake you and that is the hotel's
limo driver.
So you see her back at herapartment with Kit and she gives
(22:02):
money to Kit, who we know hasstruggled with drugs, and she
says to Kit don't let anyonetell you, you can't do something
, you know.
And Vivian has decided to moveto San Francisco and Kit's like
what are you going to do?
She's like I'm going to finishhigh school, get a job.
You know like I got gradesuntil I dropped out.
And meanwhile Edward is as he'schecking out of the hotel.
(22:25):
Mr Thompson says to him likeit's probably tough to leave
something so beautiful, andthey're nominally talking about
the jewelry that Edward hadborrowed for Vivian to wear.
But Thompson is clearly talkingabout Vivian and Thompson also
mentions by the way, dara willtake you to the airport, but he
also drove Miss Vivian home.
By the way, daryl will take youto the airport, but he also
(22:48):
drove Miss Vivian home.
So at the end we see Edwardstopping to pick up some flowers
and right next to that is Kittalking to another prostitute
saying like I'm going to have tocharge you more rent than I did
, vivian, because I'm going togo to beauty school and I'm not
sure how much I'm going to bearound.
So we get the sense that Kit isgoing to make you know, make
different decisions.
So Edward pulls up to theapartment, calls out to Vivian
(23:13):
and then he climbs up the fireescape, overcoming some of his
fear of heights to be the prince, and he says to her so what
happened after?
The prince rescued the princessand she says she rescued him
right back and then it ends withthis is a man we saw at the
very beginning.
There's a man who's just kindof like walking and talking,
like you see sometimes in, youknow, downtown areas, going like
(23:36):
Hollywood.
Everyone comes to Hollywoodwith a dream.
What's your dream?
And that's the end of the film.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Hmm, okay, all right, so where do we start?
Speaker 1 (23:46):
So, because we do Bechdel so often, let's do
Bechdel passes flying colors,okay.
So Kit and Vivian talk aboutall kinds of stuff multiple
times.
They do talk about theirprofession, they talk about love
, but they also like talk about,like the rent, they talk about
food, you know, and Vivian givesKit that advice, those sorts of
things.
(24:06):
Sure, we also see Vivian andBridget talk, so there's
multiple opportunities forconversations.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
So, as a reminder listeners, the Bechdel test from
Alison Bechdel asks threequestions Are there at least two
female characters with names?
Do they talk to one another?
And do they talk to one anotherabout something other than a
man or a boy?
So okay, so Pretty Woman passesback down.
Great.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Yes, so that's great.
The other thing that PrettyWoman does and part of the
reason why I feel like it's afeminist movie is that
celebrates the bodily autonomyof women.
So at one point early on, kitand Vivian are talking about how
they're struggling.
Early on, kit and Vivian aretalking about how they're
(24:48):
struggling and Kit says maybe weshould get a pimp, and Vivian
says no, because then we got todo what he says and he'll take
our money and they repeattogether we say who we say when
we say how much, and that's-.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
That's their mantra.
That's their mantra and that'ssomething that Vivian says when
(25:19):
she's upset and she's not ableto get it out.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
But when she's fighting with Edward she says I
say who, I say when I, and I'llput a link to in the show notes.
But I read some analysistalking about the kind of
subversive autonomy that Viviangives to Kit at the end.
Because she gives Kit money butshe does not put any conditions
on it, on it right, knowing,because we we saw at the
(25:49):
beginning kit took their rentmoney to buy drugs, knowing that
kit is not necessarily a goodbet.
But kit has her own bodilyautonomy, her own like life
autonomy, and so it is herdecision what she does with that
money.
Right, and so vivian calls itthe the edward lewis scholarship
and she also says she's like wesee such potential in you, kit,
(26:13):
and kit actually like beams,she's like really.
So there is a little bit of thelike.
All you need is a kind word andsome money.
Yeah, but at the same time,there is something very
impressively subversive aboutthis is for you do with it what
(26:33):
you will, and here's why I hopeyou'll make different decisions
than you have before.
But you're an adult, so that Ifeel like is really kind of
impressive.
You're an adult, so that I feellike is really kind of
impressive.
The other thing that I foundreally interesting is there is a
point at the polo match whereEdward introduces Vivian to two
(26:57):
sisters, gretchen and Gwen thatis very difficult to say and
says they have made marryingwell an art form.
And then one of the two snubsVivian and the other one says
don't mind her, edward is ourmost eligible bachelor.
And I know just a general likesomeone watching.
(27:20):
It is not necessarily going tomake this connection, but it
really lit something up for mewhich is really going to make
this connection.
But it really lit something upfor me, which is there is not
really a material differencebetween them and Vivian and Kit,
except for time frame.
And similarly, when Edward isoffering the apartment to make
her his mistress, he says well,at least it'll get you off the
(27:42):
streets.
And she said that's justgeography.
So there's this parallel andthat's why I think it's fair to
call this a feminist movie,because it makes it clear that
women have these kind ofconstrained options, for
whatever reason.
Now Vivian's backstory.
(28:02):
She tells Edward that her momcalls her a bum magnet and the
first guy she fell in love withwas nothing, and so it was the
second, the third bum, shefollowed to Los Angeles, and
then he didn't stay and so shewas here in Los Angeles.
She had dropped out of schoolin 11th grade.
No bum, no job, no money.
But she was too ashamed to gohome.
(28:23):
So she started off working fastfood.
Couldn't make rent, and thenshe met Kit, who made turning
tricks sound glamorous, and soshe decided to try it.
The first time was awful.
She cried the entire time, butafter that she got some regulars
and she decides who, shedecides when.
She decides how much.
(28:43):
So, considering the way that wesee edward's peers treat women,
there's something that feels alittle more honest about the way
that vivian lives, because atleast the negotiations are out
on the table.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah, yeah, in addition.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah, in addition, vivian negotiates with Edward at
every point, like she says thisis what I will do, this is what
I will not do.
When he offers something she isunwilling to accept, she says no
and is figuring something elseout for herself, which is just a
(29:25):
wonderfully feminist take on it.
I read a lot of historicalfiction and so you'll often find
kept women in historicalfiction and there's not
necessarily anything wrong withthat either and in fact, vivian
says if you'd asked me this aweek ago, I would have said yes,
but she has fallen in love withhim and she's not willing to
(29:46):
accept anything less than fullpartnership Mm-hmm, like being
with him in the open, mm-hmm.
Which is why that's the fantasyof the white knight coming to
save her is not as icky as Ithought it might have been,
because it's this specificwoman's specific dream that she
(30:07):
said she will not take any lessthan, and she says she rescues
him right back, which I alwaysfelt like that was like we got
to stick something in here forthe ladies, except that we do
see that she has made positivechanges in his life.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yeah, she's been rescuing him the whole time.
Yes, from you know, from notknowing how to drive a stick
shift, to selling his soul,mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Yes.
So there's a bit of a yes endthere, because this is very much
like the.
It's a manic pixie dream girlhooker with a heart of gold
trope.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
And even the it's a little bit born sexy yesterday,
Not exactly, but Well, becauseof the Pygmalion connection that
I named.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Yes yes, I mean Pygmalion is like maybe the
original born sexy yesterdayExactly.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
And like she's a fish out of water in you know this
high society.
But because she's, you know,just so plucky and wonderful,
she manages to disarm people.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Yeah, yeah, I feel like there's something like you
named that while she's watchingI Love Lucy and she is as
effervescent as Julia Roberts iscapable of being, which is
pretty fucking effervescent,like there's something about
that that is that sort ofexceptional like the not like
other girls.
Yes, like she's a hooker who'snot like other girls, which is,
I guess, the hooker with theheart of gold trope.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
But yeah, there's definitely a exceptionalism to
julia roberts as vivianspecifically because if edward
had picked up kit right, thisisn't how this would have gone
right and like, on the one hand,like well, yeah, because
they're uniquely suited to eachother, because they fall in love
, but on the other hand, it'sbecause she's special.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Right, right.
That's what makes him able tofall in love with her because
she's special.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
She shouldn't be a prostitute.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
She's in the wrong profession.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
As opposed to Kit, who maybe deserves it.
Yeah, as opposed to Kit, whomaybe deserves it.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah, now to be fair to the film and Gary Marshall,
the director, and even JF Lawton, kit is fully human.
We see that Kit is a full humanbeing who is making the best of
the situation she's in.
So we're not comparing Vivianto a cardboard cutout, yeah, but
(32:28):
at the same time.
So the other aspect of thisthat is part of the reason why
sex workers both appreciate thisfilm and are critical of it is
it's not a very realisticportrayal of sex work, in part
because Julia Roberts isfrickin' Julia Roberts.
So if she had been a plainlooking woman?
(32:49):
who went into prostitution, noneof this would have happened,
even just as bubbly andeffervescent as in terms of her
character, but if she didn'thave Julia Roberts' smile.
So there's lookism to this, andthe fact that she's a white
woman, a white cisgender woman,is also like.
(33:12):
This would only work in a storyabout a woman played by Julia
Roberts.
And to get to the realismaspect of it, because sex
workers say this isn't realistic.
Another thing that I read Ithink the same article, saying
that there is somethingsubversive about the fact that
(33:34):
Vivian doesn't have trauma.
She has not been sexuallyassaulted or have any kind of
trauma.
That led to getting into this,and that was very subversive and
I hadn't thought of it that way.
It just, you know, showed howsomeone can fall into a life
that they didn't plan becausethey didn't feel like they had
any other options.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Yeah, can we stay with that for a minute?
Because I feel like there'ssomething, too, that like I
(34:26):
haven't spent a lot of timethinking about this, but there
are a couple of publicintellectual sex workers who
talk about it as like.
Like, don't feel sorry for me,this is the life I want.
And like people use their bodyfor work all the time and like
movers, but the film itself ajudgment of them as sex workers
that, like you know, weunderstand they made the best
choices they could, but like wewish they didn't have to make
(34:47):
this choice and my sense fromsex worker advocates is like
that that attitude actually isless than helpful.
Like sex work is work and likeif you don't like it, don't do
it, but don't shit on people whoactually do find it fulfilling
for whatever reason, and I thinkthat next level is missing,
(35:07):
which maybe in 1990 is too muchto ask for, yeah, but I do think
it's like worth kind of naming.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
It's not just that we need to remember that sex
workers are people, it's alsothat it's a literature to make
choice for occupation.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
And the only mainstream film that I can think
of that has done that and thatI know sex workers actually
really appreciate is Deadpool,because Deadpool's girlfriend,
vanessa, is a sex worker and Iremember reading something
talking about how, after hedisappears, she stops
specifically turning tricks.
She's doing other types of sexwork.
(35:46):
I think she's dancing and thisessay I read was saying like,
yeah, if you're in anemotionally vulnerable place,
sex work is kind of like theoriginal emotional labor.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, totally, totally.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
And the idea that, like she could turn tricks while
she was and I don't know ifthat's an appropriate word term
to use, but I'm trying to.
So my apologies if that isoffensive, but the fact that she
did that while she was withWade and then stopped when he
went away and she thought he wasdead makes sense and is not any
kind of like weird situation.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Yeah, sure, it makes sense psychologically.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yes, yeah, yeah, situation, yeah, sure it makes
sense psychologically.
Yes, yeah, yeah.
And so, yeah, and that's partof the reason and this is one of
the things that sex workeradvocates are big on
decriminalizing it and making itlegal is because there are a
lot of vulnerable people whohave been trafficked or
otherwise fallen into sex workthat they don't want.
But they're not the criminals.
(36:42):
Yes, and the thing is like thathappens because it's not a
legitimate way to work.
It wouldn't happen.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
If it were legal as much as much.
Sure, we're running a littleshort on time.
I know I sort of interruptedyou.
You were talking about realismand the fact that Vivian doesn't
have any sexual trauma.
I feel like being locked in theattic is kind of traumatic.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Yes, but she doesn't have any sexual trauma that we
know of, and that that wassubvers.
It's unlikely that Vivian wouldbe a pretty white woman.
That's not realistic.
(37:27):
So this is already a fairy tale.
It's a modern fairy tale, butit's a fairy tale and there's
plenty of rags to riches.
Beautiful young, impoverishedyoung woman is rescued by a rich
man, and so that's part of thereason why I feel like if this
film had been created as thegritty drama that JF Lawton had
originally written, it would notbe a feminist film.
(37:49):
Because, yes, it's a fairy taleand fairy tales are generally
kind of anti-feminist, but whatwe have is a fairy tale that
humanizes something that wasvery much demonized in 1990, to
the point where conservativesand critics will say like it
glamorizes prostitution.
(38:10):
And while it's not a veryrealistic point of view of
prostitution, early on we seeVivian, see a colleague, skinny
Marie, dead in a dumpster.
Oh, probably an overdose, it'snot clear exactly what happened
to her, so like no, this doesnot glamorize prostitution, it
shows it.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Yeah, and it allows the prostitutes to be human.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yes, and smart, as effervescent as Julia Roberts
can be yes, and also savvy, likehaving the negotiation ability.
And like recognizing her worth,even in a way that people find
difficult to accept, likerecognizing your worth in terms
of per hour.
Feels icky if we don't think ofsex work as work, so that I
(38:58):
think is pretty subversive.
So that I think is prettysubversive.
And then the fact that it has ahappy ending means that we get
to see a woman demanding whatshe's worth and getting it.
If it had been a gritty dramawhere apparently he like in the
(39:24):
original version, Edward threwthe $3,000 into the gutter after
she got out of the car.
So way to metaphor there, jf.
So if we had had that, it wouldhave just been reinforcing the
idea that sex work is not realwork, which this already kind of
does but like reinforcing thatshe's not worth that money.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Yeah, she's not worth .
She's not human, she doesn'tdeserve a happy ending.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Yes, yeah and so like .
Why is that?
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Better.
Better, and if that's realisticwhy, right Like I think, what
our stepdad Wavalu was gettingat was that it's more
statistically likely that Kitdies of an overdose and Vivian
continues to walk the street.
More statistically likely, butthis isn't statistics, it's a
story.
It's a story, yeah, and thereare lessons that we're trying to
(40:15):
convey, and by doing so, we'realso like helping to co-create
the future in terms of whatstories we can tell in the
future.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Yes, and by doing this, you and I, as like 11 and
14-year-olds, see a womanstanding up for what she
deserves and not allowingherself to be shamed for
decisions she's made.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Right, right, which is pretty great.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
There's a reason why women love this movie.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yeah, um, yeah before we started recording.
One of the things that you toldme that you wanted to talk
about here, that we haven'tquite gotten to, is what we've
danced around.
It is capitalism, materialism,and who gets to be human.
So can I invite you to talkabout that a bit?
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Yeah.
So this is a very late 80s,early 90s film in that there is,
like this, overarchingconsumerism throughout.
Now there are some littlepushbacks.
So when Vivian asks Edward whathe does originally, she's like
I bet you're a lawyer.
And he says why?
(41:23):
And she says you've got thatsharp, useless look around you.
And she's not wrong because hedoesn't make anything or build
anything.
And Edward even says storesaren't nice to people, they're
nice to credit cards.
(41:44):
Kit visits Vivian while she'sall dressed up at one point and
Vivian says like you know, it'sreally easy to clean up, nice
when you got money.
But the moment that youremember is the shopping spree
and then her getting her revengeon the snooty boutique.
And you know there's a coupleof ways of looking at that Like.
On the one hand there's thelike.
It's the like, money solveseverything.
Hand, it's the like, moneysolves everything.
(42:07):
But on the other, there is thelike you're judging someone
based on what they look like.
And it's sweet to give themtheir comeuppance for judging
you.
But over and over again, whenpeople were like noticing
Vivianian because she'sblossomed into this high society
lady, it's all trappingsbecause she's the same person,
(42:29):
right that she was in the cutout.
You know, peekaboo dress withthe, with the blonde wig and the
the thigh high heat um boots.
She's just in trappings thatsociety thinks are more
acceptable and that doesn't feelgreat.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Yeah, it's sort of, especially if I put my Pygmalion
on it again.
Like in Pygmalion, it was asculpture that came to life, so
it was marble that became human.
But Vivian, prior to the goodclothes, was not marble.
She was human yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Yeah, and even seeing how, when Kit comes to see
Vivian at the hotel, the waythat Mr Thompson treats Kit.
He is always very dignified andpolite, but he calls Vivian in
her room and will not let Kit goup to see her until Vivian
(43:23):
acknowledges yes, that's myfriend, I asked her to come and
so that's part of the like.
Who gets to be human.
Kit doesn't really get to havethe same kind of like.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
I hope you come back sometime, that Mr.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
Thompson gives, and it's the not like other girls.
There's a gatekeeping and she'smanaged to get through the gate
.
Yes, mm-hmm, in addition tobeing a sex worker, if she were
black, if she were disabled, ifshe were not cisgender, that
gate would have been kept closed.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Yeah, no matter how much Edward would have liked her
, how effervescent she was.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Because Mr Thompson makes it clear that he is
accepting Vivian there, becauseEdward is a very special client
Right.
In fact he's a friend Right,and we let things go with
friends that we don't withclients.
And so money, money allows herto be human.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Right.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
And then she wins people over, so that doesn't
feel great.
Yeah, that's kind of disturbing.
That really doesn't feel greatyeah, that's kind of disturbing
that really doesn't feel great,but it's also like it's a
product of its time.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
Sure, I mean, that's what we got in 80s and early 90s
movies yeah and we see likestucky, very clearly taken down
because he refuses to see vivianas human yeah, and and it
sounds like edward actually evensort of says you don't even see
(45:07):
me as human.
I just make you a lot of moneyand that's why you like me, yes,
so but that also that meansstucky is abusive because he
doesn't see it.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Everyone's an npc to him, everyone's a
non-playerplayer character and Iappreciate the film having that
in there.
Because that's the other aspectthat I think is really kind of
subversive is it makes it clearthat Stucky's abuse is his
problem.
He is a monster.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
It's not because Vivian has done something wrong
or has put herself in avulnerable position because of
what she wore or any of thosethings.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Yeah, yeah and like that kind of reinforces, the we
say who we say when we say howmuch so.
That was something that Ineeded to see as a young
teenager and that I think thatthe mainstream audiences needed
to see and have a a way oflooking at sex work and abusive
(46:05):
sex workers that puts the onuson the abusers yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, and doesn't blame thevictims yes, yeah, it is
something where, like edwardsaves her in that moment because
he he gets home or gets back tothe hotel in time and pulls him
off of her, which is also likethat's.
I texted you while I waswatching.
(46:26):
Going like this is actuallypretty disturbing because if he
hadn't gotten back at that time,saki would have raped her.
He would have.
It's very, very clear and Imean talk about realistic, like
I always do want to see womenget themselves out of like
situations like that, but thatdoesn't necessarily mean they
can in films Like that actuallyis very realistic that it would
(46:51):
and actually just now occurringto me, probably part of the
reason- why she's going to San.
Francisco.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
You know, stucky knows she lives in Hollywood, he
knows that she walks HollywoodBoulevard, so she needs to get
out.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Yeah Well, we are really running short on time, so
is there any final insightsthat you want to share before I
wrap up?
Speaker 1 (47:29):
I just want to like I think this movie it was a
touchstone and I think that it'slike we've talked about other
movies before, where we neededthis to get Vanessa and Deadpool
.
Yeah, and I know that when Ifirst learned about sex worker
(47:51):
advocacy it surprised me becauseI didn't really.
I had imbibed the culturalconditioning that sex work is
shameful and that's, you know,only vulnerable people who have
no other choice have no otherchoice, uh, fall into it and no
one would choose to do that.
You know like it's horrible andyou know, taints you forever
(48:11):
bullshit.
And I'm not going to say thatthis movie like allowed me to
take in the sex worker advocacythat I read like that I wouldn't
have been able to if I hadn'tseen this movie, but it it gave
me a give me a place Like afoothold.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Yeah, give me a foothold.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
So when I was reading that and feeling surprised like
I could think back to like well, wait a minute, I love that
movie in a lot of ways.
I love the happy ending thatshe got, even though at the time
I was just like it'santi-feminist because he's a
white knight, even thoughactually no, it's, it's not.
And same as any kind of filmabout marginalized groups, since
(48:49):
it's the only movie that has asex worker as the main character
, as the titular character.
We don't have like anotherwoman going like yeah, I don't
want to be your mistress, Idon't want any of that.
I'm taking the three thousanddollars and and I'm going to
invest in blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Make my own happy ending.
Yeah, like trading places, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, we are out of time so letme see if I can very quickly
just hit the high notes.
So this movie was anincremental progress in terms of
humanizing sex workers and sexwork and sort of appropriately
(49:22):
assigning blame when there isabuse of sex workers to the
abusers.
Julia Roberts inhabited thissex worker character with all of
the effervescence that thatactress is capable of giving and
so really made her human.
And your point, the other sexworker in the movie, kit, is
(49:43):
also fully human.
So we see there's a little bitof a give and take insofar as
Vivian is not like other girls,but the other girls are also
human, even though the gatesprobably would stay closed for
them.
This film does pass Bechdel wellmany, many times.
I mean, you pointed to the factthat there's like there are
(50:03):
those, including people who areclose to us, who felt that it
was unrealistic because therewas a happy ending, and you
pointed out, like want to askthe question, like what is
realism?
Because it's not realistic thatshe would have been gorgeous
and white and able-bodied andall of those things.
You also pointed out that likeit's a story, it's already a
(50:24):
fairy tale, and so a desire forrealism insofar as statistically
sound like the actuarial tableor whatever for this person like
is not actually why is that athing that we would value?
You also talked about the focuson money as like the solution
for everything and the ways inwhich money actually is the key
(50:48):
for Julia Roberts becoming sortof more human in the eyes of all
the other characters andtherefore the audience, and how
kind of icky that is.
Because she's Vivian is thesame person.
She is not unlike in thePygmalion story on which the
chassis on which this is built.
She was not a hunk of marblelast week.
She was a human being and she'sstill a human being, and so
(51:09):
that kind of tension you namedsome of the tropes that we see
here are not like other girls.
The specific version of that isthe hooker with a heart of gold
, because it is sort of aPygmalion story and she's a fish
out of water.
She's also sort of born sexyyesterday and all that comes
with that, both the sort ofnaivete but also the wisdom that
we get with born sexy yesterday.
(51:31):
This film gave us JasonAlexander's typecasting as this
really monstrous person whoviews every single human being
in the world.
As a non-player character, he isthe only real human being and
therefore he is abusive ofeveryone, including his friend
Edward, but physically abusiveof Vivian.
And there is no doubt in eitherof our minds that if Edward had
(51:55):
not intervened when he did, theStucky would have raped Vivian,
which is really gross and maybethe reason that Vivian needs to
move from LA to San Francisco.
As a whole, this film took astep forward in terms of the way
the society viewed sex workers,but only a step, because the
movie still sort of views thisas shameful work that we really
(52:18):
want this woman that we love toget out of, even as it gave her
some autonomy around, somebodily autonomy and life
autonomy her and Kit that themovie gives them, that they
claim for themselves, that theygive one another.
Lastly, last thing I'll name isthat I feel like there's a
little bit of conversation, evenin your mind, about whether or
(52:40):
not this counts as a feministfilm, because there are things
about it that are and there arethings about it that absolutely
are not.
But I would say what I heardfrom you is that the happy
ending that we got actually madeit more feminist than if it had
been a so-called realisticending that was originally
written, with Kit dying of anoverdose and vivian staying as a
(53:02):
sex worker and continuing towalk the street.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
Cool the one thing that I want to bring up also is,
um, I mentioned how I don'tknow how much the movie is doing
this, because it's not likeunderlined or anything, but I
definitely saw it that there isthe sense that what Vivian does
is no different from what Gwenand Gretchen do, who make
marrying well an art.
It's just geography is thedifference.
Speaker 2 (53:30):
Just geography.
Right, that was the way thatshe said it.
And Gwen and Gretchen aresocially acceptable in ways that
Vivian is not.
Speaker 1 (53:36):
Yeah, which Vivian would be if she were a kept
woman.
She'd be socially acceptable ina lot of ways, in some ways, In
some ways anyway, yeah, yeah,more ways than she is currently
as we meet her, yeah.
She wouldn't be run out ofRodeo Drive Right.
Speaker 2 (53:51):
Right, she'd just be whispered about yes, yeah, cool,
all right.
Well, thanks for that.
So next week we're going totake a slightly different turn
and I'm going to bring you mydeep thoughts about the Barry
Levinson film Avalon.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
The Love.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Letter to Baltimore, so I'm looking forward to
rewatching that.
You cut the turkey without us,exactly, exactly All right.
Well, I'll see you then.
See you then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
(54:31):
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
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Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevinvin mcleod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes thank you to resonate
recordings for editing today'sepisode until next time.
(54:54):
Remember.
Pop culture is still culture,and shouldn't you know what's in
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